Well, it's official, folks: murder is legal in the state of Florida.
― del griffith, Sunday, 14 July 2013 06:20 (ten years ago) link
Murder your own toddler, murder a neighbor's kid, murder everybody! It's a free for all!
― Ⓓⓡ. (Johnny Fever), Sunday, 14 July 2013 06:23 (ten years ago) link
*if you're white
GZ created a situation where a situation wasn't, and that situation resulted in the discharge of a sidearm that fatally injured an unarmed person. He was negligent from the get-go and a manslaughter conviction should've been a slam dunk.
otm. I don't think there was enough evidence to convict him of murder but my god there should've been enough for SOMETHING. so sad/angry that someone can do what GZ did in this country and not be punished whatsoever. the fact that some people are gloating/cheering over the decision is truly sickening.
― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Sunday, 14 July 2013 06:29 (ten years ago) link
― del griffith, Sunday, July 14, 2013 1:20 AM (39 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
basically. if you start a confrontation that escalates into a brawl, and then you shoot the other person dead, you should be alright. provided said other person is the only witness and you have demonstrable injuries (however minor) to attest to the brawl.
reminder to self: don't patronize any bars in florida.
― flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Sunday, 14 July 2013 07:07 (ten years ago) link
i'd like to read a lawyer's, or someone smart at the NYer or something, take on the manslaughter charge
― k3vin k., Sunday, 14 July 2013 07:16 (ten years ago) link
yeah when they introduced it (or rather when the judge allowed it), maybe it was too late? was the jury given instructions on what manslaughter entails?
― flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Sunday, 14 July 2013 07:20 (ten years ago) link
http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmerman-jury-asks-manslaughter-clarification/story?id=19657201
"May we please have clarification on the instructions regarding manslaughter," the jury wrote to Judge Debra Nelson this evening.After consulting with the lawyers for both sides, the judge sent the jurors a reply that said the court cannot engage in "general discussions" on the charge, and added, "If you have a specific question please submit it."
After consulting with the lawyers for both sides, the judge sent the jurors a reply that said the court cannot engage in "general discussions" on the charge, and added, "If you have a specific question please submit it."
― Ⓓⓡ. (Johnny Fever), Sunday, 14 July 2013 07:22 (ten years ago) link
i have nothing valuable to say about this but i'm sad tonight.
― """""""""""""stalin""""""""""" (difficult listening hour), Sunday, 14 July 2013 07:23 (ten years ago) link
this is not bad i guess
http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2013/07/law-and-justice-and-george-zimmerman/277772/
― flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Sunday, 14 July 2013 07:26 (ten years ago) link
isn't it a judge's job to clarify the description of a law or charge? at least to provide the statutory language?
― flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Sunday, 14 July 2013 07:27 (ten years ago) link
was the reasonable doubt wrt to manslaughter GZ alleging that he was walking back to his car and Trayvon attacked him w/o provocation?
― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Sunday, 14 July 2013 07:27 (ten years ago) link
i think most lawyers agree that pressing for second degree murder was overreaching from the very beginning, done moreso for the sake of appearing to listen to public discourse rather than for legal feasibility
― 乒乓, Sunday, 14 July 2013 07:31 (ten years ago) link
i think GZ murdered this kid. i also think TM was perfectly within his rights to start pummeling GZ in self-defense. i wouldn't have done that, but I'm a wuss that couldn't win a fistfight.
but as soon as TM did that, he effectively muddied the story. and that's probably why GZ was acquitted.
that's not to "blame" TM for his own death. but just to suggest the limitations of justice in a legal setting.
― flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Sunday, 14 July 2013 07:39 (ten years ago) link
it's great that you think those things.
― circa1916, Sunday, 14 July 2013 07:47 (ten years ago) link
:/
― the next night we ate Wale (Drugs A. Money), Sunday, 14 July 2013 07:48 (ten years ago) link
"limitations of justice"
not a strike on you, but still a phrase worth emphasizing. fucking hell, tonight.
― welcome princess of hell (boy_slayer), Sunday, 14 July 2013 07:48 (ten years ago) link
― circa1916, Sunday, July 14, 2013 2:47 AM (33 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
i don't know who you are but you seem to be determined to be an ass tonight. brava.
― flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Sunday, 14 July 2013 08:21 (ten years ago) link
o
― what a wonderful url (Matt P), Sunday, 14 July 2013 08:21 (ten years ago) link
i'm a lurker non-entity, but i've been drinking and you delivered some weirdly hysterical posts tonight that i couldn't resist jumping on. cheap. honestly nothing personal.
― circa1916, Sunday, 14 July 2013 08:32 (ten years ago) link
For whatever its worth the usual suspects organized a thing in DC that became 200+ drawn from bars etc stress testing cop car windows
We didn't seek out white folks to mess with even as they yelled HE WAS FUCKIN INNOCENT at us, so I suspect you won't hear much on it.
― BIG HOOS aka the denigrated boogeyman (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Sunday, 14 July 2013 08:37 (ten years ago) link
To be angry at this jury is to miss the point. Zimmerman moved relatively logically in a white supremacist system that marks all POC as suspect. The jury moved logically on a case built on circumstantial evidence operating in a society where otherness is criminalized. The question to my mind is whether this is a logic we continue to accept.
― BIG HOOS aka the denigrated boogeyman (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Sunday, 14 July 2013 08:42 (ten years ago) link
― circa1916, Sunday, July 14, 2013 1:32 AM (8 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
also drinking and i'm not scrolling up but for reasons i've reflected on when inebriated and not inebriated i can't resist joining an f u amateurist greek chorus.
xp HOOS so so so so so otm
― what a wonderful url (Matt P), Sunday, 14 July 2013 08:45 (ten years ago) link
Never been less happy to be OTM in a thread than in this case -- but the most important part of my most OTM post here: "h(o)ld the police accountable for garbage like this (and keep challenging Police Worship wherever you see it.)" has gotten lost in the initial reactions, and I hope (but kinda doubt) that that will change in the days to come.
― Three Word Username, Sunday, 14 July 2013 09:14 (ten years ago) link
agree w that
― what a wonderful url (Matt P), Sunday, 14 July 2013 09:37 (ten years ago) link
you can dance you can die having the time of your life see that girl watch that scene digging the dancing queen.
― what a wonderful url (Matt P), Sunday, 14 July 2013 10:03 (ten years ago) link
To be angry at this jury is to miss the point. Zimmerman moved relatively logically in a white supremacist system that marks all POC as suspect. The jury moved logically on a case built on circumstantial evidence operating in a society where otherness is criminalized. The question to my mind is whether this is a logic we continue to accept.― BIG HOOS aka the denigrated boogeyman (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Sunday, July 14, 2013 3:42 AM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― BIG HOOS aka the denigrated boogeyman (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Sunday, July 14, 2013 3:42 AM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
this is essentially what i was saying. the case was narrowed in the courtroom to a few particulars that no one except the accused was in a place to verify. hence reasonable doubt. but "justice" was served only if you don't take into account the wider facts not just of the case but of american life.
no idea why i incensed anyone OTT. apparently there is a contingent here that enjoys hating me (or rather the ILX version of me)--for something i've posted in the past year, or for something from years ago, who knows? oh well...
― flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Sunday, 14 July 2013 10:04 (ten years ago) link
the leaves are falling all around. time i was on my way. thanks to you, i'm much obliged. such a pleasant stay. but now it's time for me to go, the autumn moon lights my way. now i smell the rain, and with it pain, and it's heading my way.
sometimes i grow so tired. but i know one thing i got to do
― what a wonderful url (Matt P), Sunday, 14 July 2013 10:08 (ten years ago) link
Ta-Nehisi Coates.
― first I think it's time I kick a little verse! (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, 14 July 2013 11:16 (ten years ago) link
Yeah, Coates is where I am at, but stops short of calling for pressure on the police, which I find frustrating.
― Three Word Username, Sunday, 14 July 2013 11:27 (ten years ago) link
― k3vin k., Sunday, 14 July 2013 08:16 (4 hours ago)
― the most promising US ilxor has thrown the TOWEL IN (Nilmar Honorato da Silva), Sunday, 14 July 2013 11:38 (ten years ago) link
http://gawker.com/the-zimmerman-jury-told-young-black-men-what-we-already-770650992
― k3vin k., Sunday, 14 July 2013 11:45 (ten years ago) link
i agree with TNC too
― k3vin k., Sunday, 14 July 2013 11:48 (ten years ago) link
The jury didn't like the Manslaughter charge, period, nothing more to say. It may have been winnable, particularly if it wasn't thrown in at the end of the trial looking like an afterthought -- but the prosecution was half-assedly pursuing murder charges for political reasons from the beginning. To the extent that angry people are calling for Zimmerman's and the jury's heads and not for the heads of the investigating police or the prosecutor or the Florida executive in any way, the prosecution did their job.
― Three Word Username, Sunday, 14 July 2013 11:50 (ten years ago) link
― twerking for obvious reasons (contenderizer), Sunday, 14 July 2013 12:44 (ten years ago) link
there were def several of us that were calling for the prosecutor's heads last night! I hate people who take their anger out on a jury every time it delivers a verdict they don't like. they're civilians like you!
― staff rules everything around Mi (Neanderthal), Sunday, 14 July 2013 13:05 (ten years ago) link
racist civilians like you
― the SI unit of ignorance (Noodle Vague), Sunday, 14 July 2013 13:08 (ten years ago) link
Well, we're talking about a state in which half the civilians think it's ok to act like Jack Palance in Shane, so..........
― staff rules everything around Mi (Neanderthal), Sunday, 14 July 2013 13:15 (ten years ago) link
and the other half whine like Brandon de Wilde.
― first I think it's time I kick a little verse! (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, 14 July 2013 13:16 (ten years ago) link
What the verdict says, to the astonishment of tens of millions of us, is that you can go looking for trouble in Florida, with a gun and a great deal of racial bias, and you can find that trouble, and you can act upon that trouble in a way that leaves a young man dead, and none of it guarantees that you will be convicted of a crime. But this curious result says as much about Florida's judicial and legislative sensibilities as it does about Zimmerman's conduct that night. This verdict would not have occurred in every state. It might not even have occurred in any other state. But it occurred here, a tragic confluence that leaves a young man's untimely death unrequited under state law. Don't like it? Lobby to change Florida's laws.
ALEC needs to be a household name, recognized and repulsive. not just for their influence on Florida's "Stand Your Ground" law, but for the multitudes of other awful things they do every single day.
― Z S, Sunday, 14 July 2013 13:17 (ten years ago) link
NPR drone asks GZ's brother how GZ is "feeling"
DEFUND NPR
― playwright Greg Marlowe, secretly in love with Mary (Dr Morbius), Sunday, 14 July 2013 13:29 (ten years ago) link
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/1012001_686863228006994_1671977587_n.jpg
― Three Word Username, Sunday, 14 July 2013 13:45 (ten years ago) link
i'm mad about the decision too but that's in bad taste
― Treeship, Sunday, 14 July 2013 14:36 (ten years ago) link
so Facebook Purity, so glad to meet you today.
― staff rules everything around Mi (Neanderthal), Sunday, 14 July 2013 14:50 (ten years ago) link
also took the opportunity to ban all instances of Macklemore just cuz
― staff rules everything around Mi (Neanderthal), Sunday, 14 July 2013 14:58 (ten years ago) link
ALEC needs to be a household name, recognized and repulsive. not just for their influence on Florida's "Stand Your Ground" law, but for the multitudes of other awful things they do every single day. --Z S
thisthisthisthisthisthjsthis
― BIG HOOS aka the denigrated boogeyman (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Sunday, 14 July 2013 15:21 (ten years ago) link
they were ultimately behind the Texas anti-choice law too--Rep that introduced the bill is Texas ALEC chair
― BIG HOOS aka the denigrated boogeyman (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Sunday, 14 July 2013 15:22 (ten years ago) link
Interesting if predictable to me that the general liberal reaction I'm seeing (eg TNC) is along the lines of, "We can't really blame the jury, the law is what the law is, but this is obviously still wrong on its face." Whereas the right-wing reaction is just, vindication! No shades of, maybe there's something fundamentally sad about a situation that leaves an innocent kid dead and no one accountable. The narrative on the right is just that Trayvon deserved to die, period. That says a lot more than the actual legal outcome.
― something of an astrological coup (tipsy mothra), Sunday, 14 July 2013 15:37 (ten years ago) link
There is a bit of a defeatist response from the left, but I can't tell how much of that is due to feelings of helplessness due to the difficulty and unlikeliness of seeing this SYG repealed, or an actual view that the status quo is 'fine' and that this was an aberration.
What makes me sadder is that we, as humans, can't even all agree that the situation is a tragedy. At least with the Casey Anthony case, circus trial aside, at the end of the day, we could all agree that Caylee Anthony dying was a tragedy, at least.
While the story is murkier here, one would think at its core that a story about a pair of upstanding, loving parents that lost their 17-year old son would be seen as tragic by us all...regardless of our opinions of what led to it. But it isn't the case. The reported celebrations of Zimmerman's "not guilty" verdict are more than a shade creepy. What is there to celebrate? Had Zimmerman been prosecuted, this wouldn't have been a day of fireworks and parades, but more a feeling of peace that Trayvon got justice..which wouldn't at all nullify the sadness of the situation.
Trayvon was dehumanized throughout the last 1.5 years, called a 'thug', painted as a subhuman monster, all in a method to legitimize the shooting and suspend remorse. Many didn't even feel empathy for Trayvon's surviving parents, some folks even dragging their names into the muck. To these folk, this not only 'wasn't a tragedy', but for some, something to celebrate; like some kind of 'victory' was won in legitimizing a vigilante's actions.
In the aftermath, there's always a scramble to preserve the status quo. We shouldn't attack those who supported Zimmerman's innocence, for merely having a "difference of opinion". To that I say "fuck that". I don't mean folks who thought the evidence didn't support a Guilty verdict, but those who firmly believed Zimmerman was in the right. I will think those folks are stupid and tell them they are. Likewise, it would be unfair to indicate that all who supported Zimmerman are racist, but it would be equally ignorant to deny that this was a driving subconscious force with many of them. Those folks that want to trod out "we didn't have all of the facts the jury did", ignoring that the trial was televised and that many folks were very well educated on the same facts should equal an instant gasface.
While I don't condone violence (or riots), I think the time for "civility" has ended.
― staff rules everything around Mi (Neanderthal), Sunday, 14 July 2013 15:54 (ten years ago) link
The other sad line item is just how easy it was to swing public opinion. In the earliest reports of the Trayvon case, the sentiments were much more "pro-Trayvon" in that the majority all felt it was an injustice, and only a vocal minority sided with Zimmerman.
As soon as pictures of Zimmerman's "bruises" showed up, that's when Zimmerman began winning more supporters in droves, when it really was merely an unimpressive piece of evidence that confirmed something that we already knew; that there was a conflict, at some point, prior to the shooting. It shouldn't be that easy.
― staff rules everything around Mi (Neanderthal), Sunday, 14 July 2013 16:03 (ten years ago) link