man can someone retire that fucking phrase already
― A deeper shade of lol (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 17 June 2013 19:44 (eleven years ago) link
yeah, fuck this 'useful idiot' idiom. if you think he's a traitor, don't dance around it.
― Mordy , Monday, 17 June 2013 19:57 (eleven years ago) link
https://medium.com/state-of-play/bb27db32ae38
Two weeks ago, when the Guardian first leaked a Verizon court order to hand over its call metadata, a national debate began about privacy and security. Since then those leaks have continued, and they still drive the conversation. But much of that initial reporting turned out to be wrong — so much, in fact, that I’m starting to wonder if it’s approaching journalistic malfeasance.
― goole, Monday, 17 June 2013 20:11 (eleven years ago) link
so this turned out not to be true?http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-57589495-38/nsa-spying-flap-extends-to-contents-of-u.s-phone-calls/
― Mordy , Tuesday, 18 June 2013 02:16 (eleven years ago) link
They told Nadler he heard it wrong.
― curmudgeon, Tuesday, 18 June 2013 04:21 (eleven years ago) link
good post, and not just for the david simon stuff
https://blog.pinboard.in/2013/06/persuading_david_simon/
― caek, Monday, June 17, 2013 7:54 AM (Yesterday)
^^ booming post
― look at my watch/I'm in the club and everyone's looking at me/fuck th (k3vin k.), Tuesday, 18 June 2013 10:33 (eleven years ago) link
Can we retire the use of "traitor," too? I mean, are we at war with China? Pretty sure we're not.
― This amigurumi Jamaican octopus is ready to chill with you (Phil D.), Tuesday, 18 June 2013 12:18 (eleven years ago) link
i think you mean "red china"
― steening in your HOOSless carriage (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Tuesday, 18 June 2013 12:48 (eleven years ago) link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGv2wqJJmbc
― This amigurumi Jamaican octopus is ready to chill with you (Phil D.), Tuesday, 18 June 2013 13:05 (eleven years ago) link
you don't have to be at war w/ a country for someone to commit treason on their behalf
― Mordy , Tuesday, 18 June 2013 14:02 (eleven years ago) link
i don't think it's a particularly broad reading to say that snowden violated the espionage act
― Mordy , Tuesday, 18 June 2013 14:05 (eleven years ago) link
P. sure there's a constitutional and legal definition of "treason" to which "violating the espionage act" doesn't even come close.
― This amigurumi Jamaican octopus is ready to chill with you (Phil D.), Tuesday, 18 June 2013 14:11 (eleven years ago) link
For everyone's edification though just in case.
― This amigurumi Jamaican octopus is ready to chill with you (Phil D.), Tuesday, 18 June 2013 14:12 (eleven years ago) link
Also: John Marshall and treason.
― A deeper shade of lol (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 18 June 2013 14:16 (eleven years ago) link
If only Charlie Rose had done research and then asked Obama good follow-up questions.
― curmudgeon, Tuesday, 18 June 2013 14:17 (eleven years ago) link
Charlie Rose is basically Bob Schieffer, right?
― A deeper shade of lol (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 18 June 2013 14:19 (eleven years ago) link
Here is a Wikipedia list of all persons (all four of them!) convicted of spying on the US for China. None were charged with or convicted of treason.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Americans_convicted_of_spying_for_the_People%27s_Republic_of_China
Treason is, like, an actual *thing*, not a word to be thrown about lightly. We haven't convicted anyone of treason in the US for more than half a century. We didn't even charge the Rosenbergs or Alger Hiss with treason, let alone convict them.
― This amigurumi Jamaican octopus is ready to chill with you (Phil D.), Tuesday, 18 June 2013 14:20 (eleven years ago) link
well it's easier to convict people for other things so they don't get charged w/ treason in the first place
― iatee, Tuesday, 18 June 2013 14:22 (eleven years ago) link
treason isn't an actual 'thing' anymore than manslaughter is
It has a degree of specificity regarding what your actions are intended to accomplish that "espionage" does not.
― This amigurumi Jamaican octopus is ready to chill with you (Phil D.), Tuesday, 18 June 2013 14:31 (eleven years ago) link
actually, treason is both a law and a common term
― Mordy , Tuesday, 18 June 2013 14:35 (eleven years ago) link
anyone is within their right to judge an act as treasonous even if it isn't strictly legally so by united states standards
― Mordy , Tuesday, 18 June 2013 14:36 (eleven years ago) link
So is "rape" but I advise against its usage in casual conversation. xp
― This amigurumi Jamaican octopus is ready to chill with you (Phil D.), Tuesday, 18 June 2013 14:37 (eleven years ago) link
that's a good example. plenty of rapists are not convicted as such by the united states legal system.
― Mordy , Tuesday, 18 June 2013 14:38 (eleven years ago) link
and I advise you telling someone they weren't raped if the dude wasn't charged legally xp
― iatee, Tuesday, 18 June 2013 14:38 (eleven years ago) link
against
u guys think there'll be Snowden Halloween costumes?
― ballin' from Maine to Mexico (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 18 June 2013 14:39 (eleven years ago) link
Was Jonathan Pollard a traitor?
― This amigurumi Jamaican octopus is ready to chill with you (Phil D.), Tuesday, 18 June 2013 14:40 (eleven years ago) link
I'm going as his gf xp
― iatee, Tuesday, 18 June 2013 14:40 (eleven years ago) link
yes, duh xp
― Mordy , Tuesday, 18 June 2013 14:41 (eleven years ago) link
xxp I also advise against describing people convicted of or charged with sex offenses that don't rise to the level of rape as "rapists." If a dude whips his dick out on the subway and waves it at you, he may be guilty of sexual battery or another charge, but he's not a rapist.
― This amigurumi Jamaican octopus is ready to chill with you (Phil D.), Tuesday, 18 June 2013 14:42 (eleven years ago) link
xp he was? So Israel is an enemy of ours now, is it?
lotsa hardcore patriots on ILX all of a sudden, whippin' out treason charges left and right
― This amigurumi Jamaican octopus is ready to chill with you (Phil D.), Tuesday, 18 June 2013 14:43 (eleven years ago) link
obviously my position is that supplying classified state secrets to anyone is treasonous, not just countries we are at war with.
― Mordy , Tuesday, 18 June 2013 14:44 (eleven years ago) link
except when they are legit whistleblowing. i'd say the NSA disclosure wasn't treasonous. the G-20 leak was.
blowing the whistle...of treason
― iatee, Tuesday, 18 June 2013 14:45 (eleven years ago) link
I think even questioning whether it was treason is sorta treasonous
To anyone? Even to, say, a US journalist?
― This amigurumi Jamaican octopus is ready to chill with you (Phil D.), Tuesday, 18 June 2013 14:46 (eleven years ago) link
hardcore patriots? dude told russia + turkey that we were spying on them. there was no reason to disclose that information except to undermine the US espionage program. i don't think you have to be a hardcore patriot to find that treasonous.
― Mordy , Tuesday, 18 June 2013 14:46 (eleven years ago) link
If Russia's and Turkey's real, not-for-PR-purposes reaction to this news was anything but a sarcastic "No shit," I'll eat my hat.
― This amigurumi Jamaican octopus is ready to chill with you (Phil D.), Tuesday, 18 June 2013 14:48 (eleven years ago) link
oh okay bc they weren't surprised then it's totes cool
― Mordy , Tuesday, 18 June 2013 14:50 (eleven years ago) link
i guess i'm just not enough of an free information radical. but to answer your other question - if someone leaked the names of undercover agents to a US newspaper, I'd consider that treasonous. whether that rises to the level where the government would (or should) prosecute them under a treason statute is an entirely other thing.
― Mordy , Tuesday, 18 June 2013 14:51 (eleven years ago) link
― Mordy , Tuesday, June 18, 2013 10:36 AM (16 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
can't hear you, you're backtracking too fast
i mean come on dude
― look at my watch/I'm in the club and everyone's looking at me/fuck th (k3vin k.), Tuesday, 18 June 2013 14:54 (eleven years ago) link
it's not treason unless they were working on behalf of a foreign power
― goole, Tuesday, 18 June 2013 14:55 (eleven years ago) link
not that it really matters, i guess. though treason proper is a capital crime and i don't think violating the espionage statue(s) is
it's a loose term. lots of countries define it differently. we happen to have a very strict definition of the term in the united states (plus an espionage act that covers a lot of what other countries might call treason). i don't think i need to not use the term bc of this legal coincidence.
― Mordy , Tuesday, 18 June 2013 14:55 (eleven years ago) link
ethel + julius were charged under violating espionage act no?
― Mordy , Tuesday, 18 June 2013 14:56 (eleven years ago) link
uhh well w/o checking wiki i think they were found guilty of DUN DUN DUN treason
― goole, Tuesday, 18 June 2013 14:56 (eleven years ago) link
for instance in canada: (2) Every one commits treason who, in Canada... (b) without lawful authority, communicates or makes available to an agent of a state other than Canada, military or scientific information or any sketch, plan, model, article, note or document of a military or scientific character that he knows or ought to know may be used by that state for a purpose prejudicial to the safety or defence of Canada;
― Mordy , Tuesday, 18 June 2013 14:57 (eleven years ago) link
i don't think so, checking wiki DUN DUN DUN "Charge(s) Conspiracy to commit espionage"