Sea Devils And Die: GeroniMoffat's Doctor Who In The 2010s

Is Adric the only one that's died, or have there been others? I can't think of any, but it's not like I've watched every episode.

Katerina. Sara Kingdom (OOOH CONTROVERSY).

Also you're actively supposed to believe Peri is dead for 6 weeks (some suggest that's better than her actual fate).

Of the TV companions, two 1st Doctor companions died (Sara Kingdom and Katarina), 1 5th Doctor companion (Adric YAY) and two 11th Doctor pseudo companions (Astrid and Adelaide)

In the books, Roz Forrester died and I think Chris Cwej was eventually killed off, plus they blew up Liz Shaw and gave Dodo Chaplet syphillis. I think they also killed Iris Wildmore and Grant Markham?

ISTR there was a time where doctor who (call him by his name) and various ASSISTANTS (call them by their name) were regularly led to believe the other was dead. I watched a bit of Planet of the Daleks today (spoilers, there are Daleks in it) and the silver fox thinks Jo is killed by the Daleks when they blow up a caravan covered in foil. He is hammily mortified for a good few seconds.

(another off-screen-mention point to team zygon)

or IS it off-screen? SUrely we can allow ourselves to assume the few staff we saw in that scene were shape-changed zygons.

haha good point

What's the line wrt pseudo companions? If it's just "does what the doctor says" surely that must've led a few more people to their deaths down the years?

Hence my controversy over Sara Kingdom. If it's 'travels with the Doctor in a single story', which is why she qualifies, then that opens a whole world of hurt like - let's say - Laurence Scarman.

well in fairness, "The Dalek Masteplan" was 12 episodes long

Which is why Sara Kindgdom is controversial. I think it's long enough but it is within a single story.

IMO a full companion must be involved in at least two full adventures. Someone who travels with him once and back isn't a companion, but if they continue on with him at least once more -- companion status is awarded. That's how my squirming, scheming mind works.

The Master might, just might, qualify as a companion... hah

I get that, but I think Sara K appeared in more episodes than Kamelion

Also thanks to the structure of 1st Doctor stories you could argue she appeared in a bunch of mini stories

these two don't though

and two 11th Doctor pseudo companions (Astrid and Adelaide)

Astrid spent, what, 90 minutes on the same ship as, and maybe 15 minutes in the Doctor's company? Forest girl from Good Man Goes To War is more of a companion. And Adelaide spent a couple of hours in a base under siege with the Doctor in it, then 30 seconds in the TARDIS [before killing herself]; this would make every surviving character from The Almost People a companion

did you miss the word "psuedo" in that phrase

so are we counting adam from 2005, given that he travelled more than once? or is he disqualified from companionship master-style because he was dickish?

I count Adam

I'm pfffting at the idea of pseudo-companions

Adam counts well enough

I place him above Rose in my list of Nu-Who companions.

Such a sentimental button-pusher, but I'm surprised I wasn't a sobbing mess by the end of the episode -- oh right, the resolution is nonsense, but when it became clear that it was, I managed to quarantine it from the rest of the stuff that was affecting.

One thing to add to the "What Time Is It" debate is possibly the Doctor's little quizzical hesitation/"Oh, that's INTERSTING because it's RONG" reaction to Amy saying she's doing travel writing -- like maybe he somehow ended up in a different timestream with a nu-Amy who was never a model.

oh right, the resolution is nonsense

the details all along were too though - how in the living fuck did the entire staff of the hospital not notice the SAME LITTLE GIRL waiting on the SAME SEAT to be admitted for A YEAR? Or that her cube was glowing when no-one else's did? Or that dozens of living patients were going missing ALONG WITH THEIR GURNEYS?! That's not a cheap and easily-replaceable piece of equipment.

and if there was a reason for every cube to do something weird and different, I think I missed it. All they needed to do to draw attention to themselves was open, or do the SAME thing as each other, or maybe 100 different things spread amongst the thousands and thousands of them. And why did the observed ones in UNIT keep doing their weird things, but all the ones in the outside world did 'em once and then stopped? How does that bring people within zapping range MANY HOURS LATER?

On your first point , I was kind of hoping that they'd turn out to be a red herring that commented on the yawning emptiness within the Doctor, but honestly, once it turned into another one of those Mystical Ancient Race stories, I stopped caring how the plot holds together logically and just bask in the affection of the Pondses.

As to your second, I dunno, but I'm glad thet did different things, why because more intersting.

once it turned into another one of those Mystical Ancient Race stories, I stopped caring how the plot holds together logically and just bask in the affection of the Pondses.

utterly otm. this story wasn't about aliens or ancient rites or disunited heart attack responses, it was about pond and pond. cubes gave the episode a reason to happen and the doctor something to do. yes one could pen a six-volume concordance about this week's alien-of-the-week but one could also not.

it was about pond and pond.

Hey don't forget about Brian!

pond snr

I reckon he hit more than half

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk162/katamari-fever/rtd-bingo.jpg

i miss the cardiff setting

I'm not saying anything until the rest of the world has had it broadcast.

thanks for reminding me to check my torrent sites... hah

in 49 years of uneven science fiction that's probably the first time I've actually yelled "OH FUCK OFF" at something in a doctor who episode

It was this scene, right?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gk9xhrjzjXQ

yeah that aspect was regrettable. will admit i cried very very hard at the ending.

the quality of some of the dialogue made me cry tbh

wow, didn't know that was going to happen.

I'm not saying anything until the rest of the world has had it broadcast.

see you in six days

Didn't realise AUS was that late, but I'm happy to wait.

Isn't there like a body of water between where a certain statue is and manhattan? & wouldn't that entity have rather a lot of weight to transport.
Not plotholes in Dr Who, surely not?

Didn't realise AUS was that late, but I'm happy to wait.

― passive-aggressive display name (aldo), Sunday, 30 September 2012 18:20 (59 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

we get it on iview (basically the same as iplayer) the second it finishes in the uk, so anyone with connectivity who cares has seen it by now. terrestrial air date is six days later.

OK then, with apologies for people in the CoA who are waiting for the air date...

This was a great big pile of old emo bollocks, wasn't it?

I liked the general idea of the Angels building a big power battery, but to what end? The Angel of Liberty doesn't exactly DO anything, even once they make it mobile. Also, it was previously established they got their power from the action of sending somebody back in time (which was made explicit by Sally Sparrow's mate going back to the 30s and having a perfectly happy pastoral life in Middle England) so what keeping him in a room achieves is absolutely unclear. In fact, since normal people don't have access to time travel anybody they sent back is always trapped out of time and so achieves the same result. Moffatt should watch his own shows.

Angels are made of stone. So how does a giant copper panelled statue (over an iron and wood base?) become one of them? The handwave is obviously that the Whoniverse SoL isn't the same one as in ours, or that the Angels replaced it at some point (without going near how they did it, how they got rid of the old one etc) but it feels like lazy writing that it needed it. And where does the breath come from for the cherub Angel to blow out Rory's candle?

Angels can only move when they're not being observed. Right. So a GIANT STATUE can make it's way across the river and up the street (we hear the footsteps) with nobody ever seeing it in "the city that never sleeps"? For comparison, think of Cloverfield. For it to fit into this plot, by the time the monster is in Central Park it would have had to have got there without ANYBODY having seen it until it was there. Doesn't sound very likely, does it? Also the one that has grabbed River in the mid-plot isn't looked at for most of the time it's onscreen (or implied to be onscreen), and just disappears altogether so they can have the chat on the stairs and The Doctor can give up his last regeneration to heal River's wrist (which is another shitty idea).

How come Rory's death appears on the gravestone before he disappears, but Amy's doesn't until after she's gone? I did love how once she'd disappeared The Doctor couldn't give a fuck about the lone Angel that send them back and just leaves it to keep on zapping people in NYC. Or how the only person that seemed even vaguely bothered Rory had been zapped back in time was Amy. You know, you'd think if you'd just seen it happen to your dad you might crack your face slightly.

The worst bit though, and the worst example of ignoring what you wrote a couple of years ago, is the return to the events of The Eleventh Hour and little Amelia sitting in the garden. It's clear they way we're supposed to read it exactly as it appears to play out - that The Doctor goes back and takes the seven year old Amelia away on an adventure. Someone (not me) has gone back and rewatched TEE and confirms there is a scene where we hear the TARDIS noise with little Amelia giving a lookup and cutaway and don't see the Doctor so it is obviously supposed to be this point. HOWEVER... firstly, from a narrative standpoint, if the Tweedy Man or the Bow-Tie Man turned up and took her on an adventure, wouldn't that be much more memorable than the Raggedy Man who turned up one evening and ate a couple of odd things? And so therefore wouldn't a seven year old be far more likely to call him that? Secondly, Amy wants him to tell her it all. So Amelia always knows her future? Why didn't Amy in that case? Thirdly though, AND THIS IS JUST FUCKING SLOPPY, the events of The Eleventh Hour didn't happen. Moffatt wrote them out of time in The Big Bang when he made it so that Amy's parents didn't get sucked in through the crack in her wall and were always there for her. So little Amelia was never left on her own to be able to have the kitchen escapades with the Doctor and be convinced to pack her case and sit out all night in the garden.

It sums up what I hate about NuWho - the companions being the most important part of the story. They're not, they're our interface with the Whoniverse. It shouldn't be about THEM. Earthshock, for example, is about stopping the Cyberman invasion. The death of Adric is shocking (excuse the pun) but it's not a major part of the plot; it happens at the end and arguably the most important addition to the plot is that it provides the resolution to Cybermen in the TARDIS through using his badge. The freighter crashing is a minor point in comparison. Would Adric have solved it and prevented it if the Cyberman hadn't blown up the keyboard? Probably.

I don't know whether you got the trailer for Christmas afterwards so I won't talk about "Clara" but I suspect it provided a shock for people who hadn't read any BBC press releases etc over the past year.

Can we go back to "adventures in time and space" now please? Please?

Think that's pretty OTM. The angel that had River's wrist was chained up, but I'm not sure how efficacious that's supposed to be, but could explain why it wasn't a threat. Unless I missed that it got unchained at some point? Also, River did show a bit of emotion when she was telling Amy to let herself get zapped so she could be with Rory. A bit. My main problem with that scene was Amy'n'Doctor doing the "oh hello I have screwed my face up so you can tell this is a tense bit. Squinty cryey emotions over here!" school of acting.

On the other hand I did like the bit where they jumped, even if it was a bit heavy-handed "LOVE WILL SAVE EVERYTHING" for the trillionth time. At least it was not *literally* the power of love. And it also didn't actually work.

I don't mind so much about Who being about the companions and their relationship with/comprehension of the Doctor, but I can definitely see why you're frustrated when it leads to shoddy plotting.

"On the other hand I did like the bit where they jumped, even if it was a bit heavy-handed "LOVE WILL SAVE EVERYTHING" for the trillionth time. At least it was not *literally* the power of love. And it also didn't actually work."

It did though didn't it? It destroyed the battery thing and returned them to earth, it just wasn't as permanent as they'd hoped. & they did get to spend the rest of their lives together though not sure what the 5 year age gap between the pair of them on the gravestone indicated, whether they had to find each other again cos they arrived at different times? or just if one outlived the other.
Also not sure when graveyard was, does 80+ years indicate they went back to 1840 or thereabouts? Or was graveyard present day whenever that is to them. Did I just miss a plot point being explained the first time they were in that graveyard?

Well had me feeling pretty emotional but in a way it was a happy ending since they did get to grow old together instead of just vanishing completely or something. Not sure how much of a struggle that was 21st century person being stranded in the 19th century or whatever. Did she become a publisher/writer? Would that have been a possibility at that time?

The gravestone ages is straightforward. Arthur was born in 1982, Karen was born in 1987. It's a production crew in-joke.

Right, don't think I'd heard that one.

Well, I read the plan as "stop the angels from pursuing Rory and zapping him constantly". So in those terms, it totally didn't work, seeing as he got zapped again within five minutes of celebrating not being zapped.

But he wasn't zapped back to the miserable Angels factory farm, he was zapped back to a presumably fulfilling life in the past with his wife, as the Angels factory farm no longer existed.

I thought this was pretty decent actually, though probably could've done with being a two-parter so as better to balance the mystery/horror aspects and the emo aspects.

The age difference is presumably bcz Rory died first, as is his wont

I was really hoping that Amy and Rory creating the paradox would cause the Tardis to explode creating those cracks in the universe, so that would bring it all back to why Amy is important somehow, but eh, I guess we're just going to let all of that go now.

I wanted to be more moved by this, but it did seem a bit rushed. Also annoyed by Amy and Rory having a loooooong suicide pact goodbye while *not* looking at the GIGANTIC WEEPING ANGEL OF LIBERTY in front of them.

the GIGANTIC WEEPING ANGEL OF LIBERTY

This was just stupid. At the other end of the scale, the baby Angels worked well.