White Men Who Exclusively Date Asian Women

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Aesthetic type-preference = reasonable.

Behavioral expectations wrapped up with gender complexities = awful.

|\|!+5uh, Tuesday, 29 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Anyway I know tons of Japanese women who automatically de-select guys with a case of yellow fever. Why? They could've stayed at home, played 'submissive' roles to get by, or get treated like an accessory so see no need to travel to a major world city to experience a slight remix of the same record.

While this thread has been running I've been phoned by two Japanese women. I'm leaving shortly for dinner with one of them (and her Austrian boyfriend).Did they call me because they wanted to be submissive accessories? Of course not. If anyone is bandying insulting stereotypes about here it's you, Suzy.

Are you suddenly the best friend of the people you've been happy to call 'braindead Japanese art student groupies'? Or is calling them submissive accessories just another insult? Are they perhaps a minority so oppressed by people like me that they need to be stung into revolt by your reductive stereotypes?

Momus, Tuesday, 29 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Momus + Suzy: Give up and get married.

Momus: Honestly, in what proportions do you think fixated solely- other-race attractions are a product of (a) healthy impulses and inclinations versus (b) rigid mental concepts of how individuals of a particular sex and ethnicity behave? Clearly both exist: which do you think prevails?

It is entirely possible that my perception of this is skewed by living in the more broadly homogenous U.S., where there are broad and ugly strains of white women's Mandingo fetishizing of black males and white men's submissive-prostitute fetishizing of Asian women, and a properly-worded google search will reveal truckloads of porn sites that appear to support this assertion.

Nitsuh, Tuesday, 29 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Honestly, in what proportions do you think fixated solely- other-race attractions are a product of (a) healthy impulses and inclinations versus (b) rigid mental concepts of how individuals of a particular sex and ethnicity behave? Clearly both exist: which do you think prevails?

'Healthy' and 'rigid' are all in the eye of the beholder, surely. I know what you mean, though. The closest I came to uneasiness with this was when I was in Thailand last year and got the feeling that the Pat Pong district of Bangkok had been formed by its former use as a US military R&R area. This is what I call 'your dad's fetishism', which is all about militarisation, brutalisation, and celebration of inequality.

If 'my dad's fetishism' traces its lineage back to Vietnam, then mine traces its roots back to Lennon / Ono. Japan and Britain as two parallel islands of pretty much equal educational and material development (Japan a little ahead, of course, on both), two artists secure in their own careers and respectful of each other's work.

If you go to the ICA in London, you notice that Japanese girls sometimes seem to be the only people there. I am, in human form, the ICA. I am sustained, like that venerable London arts institution, by the patronage and kindness of these hyper- cultuivated people. I also enjoy fucking them.

Momus, Tuesday, 29 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

ICA card going free. Any takers? I don't want mine.

Sarah, Tuesday, 29 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Burning your Beatles records too, Sarah?

Momus, Tuesday, 29 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

So you are now claiming to bethe Beatles in human form? My, we are bigging ourselves up today, aren't we Momus?

RickyT, Tuesday, 29 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Nitsuh: isn't that "mandingo" genre consumed largely by white men, and is rooted in a racist ideology of despoiling miscegenation, rather than a projection of white women themselves? I mean, I *have* been to Franks Lounge with its clientele of art students on the slumming pull, but the "yellow fever" thing seems to be from start to finish a white man's game.

It's funny what Suzy says about Scots, because it seems to me that in Brooklyn there's a thing with many of the local population of English boys being into South Asian girls.

Benjamin, Tuesday, 29 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

What about men who date only Symbionese Liberation Army members? Now that's one sick fetish, brother.

Momus, Tuesday, 29 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Or people who only date Icelandic Mormon Albino webbed-footed diabetics who collect ginger snap packages from Austria between the years 1945-1962?

mike hanle y, Wednesday, 30 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

I don't think: "yellow fever" thing seems to be from start to finish a white man's game.
It frequently seems to be a white woman's game (whether gay or straight) but just doesn't have a war and a history in literature to flesh it out.
Seeing as we don't have many blacks in Australia I can't say whether or not it's a black wo/man's game too - although there was and still is a lot of intermingling of Aboriginals and Chinese in NT.
Is a white man with yellow fever more offensive than an Asian man who prefers Asian girls? If so, why?
Is a white man with yellow fever worse than a white guy who prefers white women?
I find Asian features and colouring more aesthetically pleasing than Caucasian features, I did Japanese at uni & I plan to do Mandarin in the near future, I've studied Shiatsu and some Chinese Medicine and I eat pretty much exclusively Asian food and often shop at Asian grocery stores. Do I have yellow fever? I don't think so, I just like their languages, writing, food and philosophy but (except with the food) not to the exclusion of other cultures.

I don't think there is anything wrong with having a preference over race/gender/colouring/education/religion/employment status/nationality/age etc. Crikey, you've got to spend time with the person, you have every right to be as fussy as you want to be and I don't think it matters WHY you prefer a certain thing, no matter what the cause/history of it, it is how you are now and so you should choose your partner accordingly.

toraneko, Wednesday, 30 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

The idea is that this white guy comes along and views an Asian woman (by features or by behavior or whatever) as exotic to spike his punch. His enchantment is entirely based on set white-guy-created stereotypes and so he disregards her humanity. This is why porn, which generally avoids humanization, finds 'Eastern edge' quite suitable for exploitation. The stereotype is taken advantage of, aggravated, embraced, and so on.

Asians preferring Asians or whites preferring whites generally involves less criticism because the preferences are working within an ethnic mundanity of sorts. An Asian who blocks out all other types of people can still be criticized perhaps, but this preference is a more understandable and natural one. It's difficult to perceive it as a degrading fetish since it crosses no ethnic lines.

That said, I'm not sure how often white-Asian couples actually involve any degrading element at all. I don't think it's fair to underestimate the perceptiveness of Asian women. At least in America, and especially in Berkeley where I live, Asians would probably never engage with, let alone last in, a relationship with some fetishizing white-boy monstrosity. If the issue is about naive submissive girls being taken advantage of, I don't see this as being the case around me.

Honda, Wednesday, 30 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

you mean that isn't the real patti hearst?

goeff, Wednesday, 30 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Nick, you're being reductive. Did I say that *all* Japanese women were braindead art student groupies? Of course not: that really would be reductive stereotyping. But I see it all over your posts: 'my Japanese girlfriend' instead of 'my girlfriend, X'. It's things like this that make me believe the person's origins are more important to you than their individual identity.

Perhaps if you'd introduced me to someone who seemed more like an equal to you than a foil or a yes-woman, or bothered to tell me something interesting about them before I met them, I might not have such a poor impression of what, to me, seem like a series of nice but in-over- their-heads young girls happy to endure Misogyny Lite if it means three months of being some minor pop star's plus one (Yoko, on the other hand, was not arm candy for an insecure guy who wanted to look trendy at art openings). But the only thing you appear to have in common with the girls I have met is this: they're interested in you almost as much as you are. But unlike you, they can get bored of you and go away, which, eventually, they do.

suzy, Wednesday, 30 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

As for WMWEDAMen, besides scat, there are few turnoffs worse than having some man coo into your ear "oooh, i just love asian boys" - which happens quite a bit. But hell, its a lot better than hearing "oh, i'm not into asians" - which also happens quite a bit. I'm fairly certain that I couldn't date anyone who has this 'yellow fever'. I would feel somehow cheap - like some eight-year old sewed me together in a Jakarta factory to export for Western consumption. Which I guess is pretty silly.

Though I'm into the whiteys so call me a hypocrite. Though it would be pretty ridiculous if I tapped on your shoulder and swooned "omigod, i just love white guys"...

phil, Wednesday, 30 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

RickyT whatever else one might say about the Beatles they were "in human form" anyway.

Tom, Wednesday, 30 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Erm, yes. I was trying to point out how daft Momus's comment about burning Beatles records was.

RickyT, Wednesday, 30 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

yea, i couldn't understand that either. i mean, i don't even have any Beatles records to burn. do i have to make do with burning Bowie, or Cex, or Nelly or something?

gareth, Wednesday, 30 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Neither do I haf Beatles records! Oy vey! Neither do I haf any Momus records so I can't even burn those! I did ruin a Kenickie record by playing frisbee with it but that was only because it belonged to a poo-head.

Sarah, Wednesday, 30 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

If you've got yellow fever or jungle fever or whatever, select a suitable target, treat them really brilliantly, that way everybody's happy, more good comes out of bad intentions!

dave q, Wednesday, 30 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

By 'really brilliantly' I mean, treat them like you LUV them (as an individual) obv.

dave q, Wednesday, 30 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

I actually consider WMWEDAW to be more insulting white women than insulting to Asian women. This is because they are often rejecting their own culture and women.

It's something to do with how as a child your mother should represent the ideal woman - I know this is very often not true, but it would be nice if it was. If you reject your mother's culture/religion/philosophy/race then you are rejecting your origins and you are abandoning your history.

With men who have had previous white girlfriends and wives who then get "yellow fever" and subsequently find white women unattractive there is often no way for their previous girlfriends/wives to compete. If I was a woman in this position I would find it insulting and it would make me feel inadequate - and all the more so because I understand it.

It is very easy to hate your own country and culture and upbringing and to see others as superior, especially if they are very different. Asian culture, from an outsider's point of view, seems far superior to Western culture - hence the fascination with Buddhism, Chinese Medicine and all things Chinese and Japanese that so many people hold today.

It is interesting to note that they tend to reciprocate.

toraneko, Wednesday, 30 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

people exoticize 'the other'. i don't necessarily view this as a negative. personally i do not know whether i would like to be liked as me, or as a something, one of many, rather than a unique. but who knows, maybe i'd like being objectified?

gareth, Wednesday, 30 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

If you reject your mother's culture/religion/philosophy/race then you are rejecting your origins and you are abandoning your history.

I don't think this is how you meant it, but this sounds like National Front propaganda.

fritz, Wednesday, 30 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

I personally adore being objectified. I just hope, as I get older, it continues to happen (Germaine Greer says pretty much the same thing in 'The Madwoman's Underclothes').

Momus, Wednesday, 30 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

By the way, Suzy, I can guarantee you will never be troubled by any of my friends again. I'm sick of finding personal details of my life in the tabloids.

Momus, Wednesday, 30 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

*wakes up*

Did someone say 'pedestal'?

*rolls over, goes back to sleep, resuming dream about Hiroshi Sugimoto's 'Seascapes'*

suzy, Wednesday, 30 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

i have a hardon for patty hearst...does that make me weird?

goeff, Wednesday, 30 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Suzy + Momus = FITE!

Dan Perry, Wednesday, 30 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

A propos nothing, Paul Barman just replied to my suggestion that he contribute to the Paul Barman thread on ILM with this:

'why in the world would i contribute to a thread of hate like that??

for some reason internet people are particularly obnoxo. i guess cuz it;s anonymo.

thanks for defending me...'

Momus, Wednesday, 30 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Lot of yall are right, lot of yall are off, but that HOnda guy has got it nailed. Illustrated the behavior of a LOT of people I know (even brown (indian) crew) without being insulting or sounding totally out of touch. Speaking of which, who gives a fuck in the first place, "Patti Hearst" (and some others here)? I know damn well what Rivers Cuomo gets up to backstage and I can't even begin to think of why this is different/worse/better than the usual cracker groupie scenario. Are your sisters banging their TaeKwonDo instructors or somthing? Who cares? Haha just kdding. Love.

Ramosi, Wednesday, 30 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Okay, here's the thing. People are getting knickers in a twist over this issue because it contains a cultural faultline between two generally accepted but opposing principles:

1. Everyone is equal and should have equal opportunities in society. (In our case, there should be no racial profiling of potential dates.)

2. Everyone is an individual with a right to personal preferences and the freedom to choose between available options.

Momus, Wednesday, 30 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

those 2 positions are not contradictory momus.

i'm sorry that paul barman thinks i am full of hate, i am actually full of nougat.

gareth, Wednesday, 30 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

i am also sorry paul barman does not think of this board as being worthy of his presence.

gareth, Wednesday, 30 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Paul Barman is a Predator looking muthafucker

Ramosi, Wednesday, 30 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

for some reason internet people are particularly obnoxo. i guess cuz it;s anonymo.

Hey, I know his name and he knows mine. So what's the complaint?

I know damn well what Rivers Cuomo gets up to backstage

Rivers Cuomo would be much more interesting in my eyes if he stayed a hair-metaller. Then he would be honest with himself. ;-)

Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 30 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

More accurately, he can find out my name easily enough. ;-)

Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 30 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Ramosi, you are EXCELLENT.

Dan Perry, Wednesday, 30 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

(sips water) ..... I love you back....

(I stole that from Martin Lawrence HBO special!)

Ramosi, Wednesday, 30 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

The only things I'm arguing against, Momus, are:

(a) The prevalence of those "personal preferences" being based on wrongheaded and demeaning expectations of how people of various ethnicities behave.

(b) The related belief that ethnicity is such a major determinant of what people are actually like that it should be the primary factor in dating choices.

(c) The slick (if not slippery) slope between a "personal preference" for one ethnicity and active distaste for another; the flipside of "I like Asian women" (because they are Asian) may well be "I don't like Latin men" (because they are Latino).

(I am also generally just completely sick of west-European-descended white people considering any ethnicity but their own as denoting an identifiable quality in a person, as if they are humans and everyone else is just a quaint aesthetic variation on humanity -- as if we live in a fantasy novel where the "humans" are attracted to the elves but not the dwarves. People who think this way are inevitably angered or just surprised by any assertion that their whiteness "means" anything about them, but they place the same expectations on us dwarves and elves and hobbits 24 / 7.)

Nitsuh, Wednesday, 30 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

1. Everyone is equal and should have equal opportunities in society. (In our case, there should be no racial profiling of potential dates.)

2. Everyone is an individual with a right to personal preferences and the freedom to choose between available options.

those 2 positions are not contradictory momus.

They're contradictory every time my freedom to choose is at odds with your right to be chosen, eg because you are the wrong race.

It's like when an employer who's already decided to give the job to a well-qualified insider then advertises it in the paper just to give the world (and legislative bodies) the impression that he's being fair. Equality and discrimination are at odds every time a book reviewer says to one author her book is worth less than another author's. It's a major faultline in our society, like I say.

Momus, Wednesday, 30 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

i think i just see things very differently to you momus. i think maybe i would like to be able to have that very clearly delineated black/white either/or thing that you have going on a bit more. but for me, things are a lot more contextual, and things are going to alter every time. i cannot look at things as having *this factor*, *that factor*. perhaps i lack a bit of logic in these matters. this i concede

i meant that they are not necessarily contradictory. they may be in certain situations, or even society at large, but my brain doesn't process them as contradictory in my own life

i am curios though as to what these qualities asian women or latino men actually have. momus, what qualities do asian women have that is good? is it basically physical/visual (if it is this, i don't necessarily see any problem with that), or is it something else?

gareth, Wednesday, 30 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

also momus, i hope i have not been coming across as antagonistic towards you recently. it is just you have been putting across quite rigid thoughts that i find interesting because it is a very different way of seeing that i am trying to understand more. it is also, because your outlook (at least on these boards - which is all i have to go on) is very different to how i perceived it would be.

gareth, Wednesday, 30 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Methinks Momus just wants to date a culture. And you can't date a culture -- you can only date individuals, and as soon as they realize that you're more interested in what they represent than what they are, they may well have the good sense to leave.

Nitsuh, Wednesday, 30 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

By the way, Suzy, I can guarantee you will never be troubled by any of my friends again. I'm sick of finding personal details of my life in the tabloids.

Ummm, what? Please stop grandstanding. I couldn't very well have expressed my opinion (and that's all it is - my opinion) without any background to explain how it was formed. If that offends you, I'm sorry, but I think what I've written here falls under one of your favourite categories of forgivable exposition - 'showing all works'. Besides which, our mutual friends see our battles for what they really are: shadow-boxing. And do not take them too seriously for this reason.

suzy, Wednesday, 30 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

personal to phil-two: we'll talk later, yes? :-)

Sean, Wednesday, 30 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Nitsuh's points:

(a) The prevalence of those "personal preferences" being based on wrongheaded and demeaning expectations of how people of various ethnicities behave.

With the caveat that one person's 'wrongheaded and demeaning' is another person's 'acceptable and ennobling', I'm with you on this. See my distinction above between 'Vietnam' and 'Lennon / Ono'.

(b) The related belief that ethnicity is such a major determinant of what people are actually like that it should be the primary factor in dating choices.

Ethnicity is a big determinant, though of course not as big as personality. Japanese all have the same hair and eye colour, for instance, and share a cuisine, a religion, a language, an essential morality, many features of morphology, a culture and a worldview. Japan may be a special case, though. Diasporan races within the US, though, are much less different from each other.

(c) The slick (if not slippery) slope between a "personal preference" for one ethnicity and active distaste for another; the flipside of "I like Asian women" (because they are Asian) may well be "I don't like Latin men" (because they are Latino).

That's like saying my choice to live in Chinatown is simultaneously a choice not to live in every other place in the world. Well, yes, but there's no snub intended to the shantytowns of Sao Paolo!

(I am also generally just completely sick of west-European-descended white people considering any ethnicity but their own as denoting an identifiable quality in a person, as if they are humans and everyone else is just a quaint aesthetic variation on humanity -- as if we live in a fantasy novel where the "humans" are attracted to the elves but not the dwarves. People who think this way are inevitably angered or just surprised by any assertion that their whiteness "means" anything about them, but they place the same expectations on us dwarves and elves and hobbits 24 / 7.)

I certainly don't think of white values as natural, neutral or normal ones. This attitude is my main problem with US foreign policy and US entertainment. My own values are just as racially and culturally determined as anyone else's, and I don't complain when people whisper into my ears (as they have) 'I really dig Scottish guys!' In a way, it's quite a legitimate position. We Scots are alike in certain ways.

Momus, Wednesday, 30 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

i only fancy ppl i don't like much => my fault-line = worse than modern society's => i despise modern society for being less complex than me = i want to date it

mark s, Wednesday, 30 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Granted, Nick: the difference is that you are arguing theory and I am arguing practice. I have no doubt that people all across the world -- particularly in more culturally heterogenous lands than the U.S. -- have healthy interests in, respects for, and inclinations toward other cultures. Well and good. My only point is that it's a slow fade from that reasonable identification of cultural traits into plain-out stereotyping, and a slow fade from stereotyping to demeaning stereotyping -- and am I the only one here who finds it demeaning? I can vouch from experience that I feel hugely demeaned by people who want to have sex with me based on expectations based on race, based on some racialist fantasy that I cannot live up to and which prohibits the person in question from accepting the good qualities I can offer, as they don't fit into the stereotype.

Millions of people aren't doing that with the other-race or other-culture attractions. But millions of people are. And given the word "exclusively" in the title of this thread -- suggesting an absolute fixation -- that's the type I'm thinking of.

Nitsuh, Wednesday, 30 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

based on some racialist fantasy that I cannot live up to

Oh, Nitsuh, you're probably measuring wrong.

Sean, Wednesday, 30 January 2002 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

I am, in human form, Tucson's rush hour - heavy and slow, and not passing enough water.

pplains, Tuesday, 9 July 2013 18:57 (ten years ago) link

thinking of dating exclusively asian women after the current er indoors tbh

dub job deems (darraghmac), Tuesday, 9 July 2013 20:53 (ten years ago) link

what arts institution are you

i was looking through a bookmark file of mine from 2005 the other day, was pleased to find that the link to momus' penis still works

http://imomus.com/michaelangelo.jpeg

i wanna be a gabbneb baby (Hungry4Ass), Tuesday, 9 July 2013 21:05 (ten years ago) link

good Momus quote to dig up, cheers Nilmar

― mh, Tuesday, July 9, 2013 2:53 PM (2 hours ago) Bookmark

i wanna be a gabbneb baby (Hungry4Ass), Tuesday, 9 July 2013 21:05 (ten years ago) link

i find asian girls typically hugely attractive. but i haven't dated any :(

Does this make me a bastard or not?

― darraghmac, Friday, 31 August 2007 13:05 (5 years ago)

think you might be the amsterdam rijksmuseum, closed down for refurbishment for a number of years but now opening up again

http://imomus.com/michaelangelo.jpeg

what a wonderful url

Matt P, Tuesday, 9 July 2013 21:24 (ten years ago) link

down to the peg

what a wonderful url (Matt P), Tuesday, 9 July 2013 21:25 (ten years ago) link

five years pass...

Got my yellow fever vaccine on Monday and today I'm down with one nostril constantly running, a migraine, dizziness and slight tingling/numbness of my left foot. These are known but somewhat rare side effects. Committed to going to the doctor tomorrow if I don't feel better when I wake up. To that end I've just had a hella generous hot toddy.

Also there was no CD thread for The Vaccines to post dud in twice. No-one needs to rectify this.

Minister of the Pillow (fionnland), Friday, 10 August 2018 00:20 (five years ago) link

You can start a crossdressing thread fella no one will judge u

F# A# (∞), Friday, 10 August 2018 00:23 (five years ago) link

I got a mmr booster, tetanus booster, hep first round and a yellow fever shot all in one day once and stupidly went out drinking that night. Four double whiskeys later my body was making the craziest sounds while I was puking.

Yerac, Friday, 10 August 2018 01:14 (five years ago) link

U shlda recorded it

F# A# (∞), Friday, 10 August 2018 01:30 (five years ago) link

Probably. I had a roommate at the time that said he heard whistling and woke up.

Yerac, Friday, 10 August 2018 01:41 (five years ago) link

Ha

F# A# (∞), Friday, 10 August 2018 01:43 (five years ago) link

puking after a dozen shots

for i, sock in enumerate (Sufjan Grafton), Friday, 10 August 2018 01:58 (five years ago) link


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