Fuckin' McNulty
Shame that Oz has been written out.
I've said it before: Oz was a soap opera with wangs and shivs. Entertaining, but not exactly top-tier entertainment.
― Henry David Thorough (Deric W. Haircare), Friday, 23 March 2012 15:20 (twelve years ago) link
No 'quality'...yes, I get it.
― xyzzzz__, Friday, 23 March 2012 15:21 (twelve years ago) link
tradition de qualité
― The term “hipster racism” from Carmen Van Kerckhove at Racialicious (nakhchivan), Friday, 23 March 2012 15:23 (twelve years ago) link
Sorry for suggesting that we use 'quality' as a signifier of what might make one thing better than another.
― Henry David Thorough (Deric W. Haircare), Friday, 23 March 2012 15:31 (twelve years ago) link
that's not really how the term gets used though
― thomp, Friday, 23 March 2012 15:36 (twelve years ago) link
i mean it's a really nebulous thing when ppl start scarequoting it: smth like 'art which naturalises its aesthetic decisions by promoting itself and being in the world in such a way as to suggest that those aesthetic decisions were already the ones which made it good art'
i suspect it's ultimately as much as a mental copout as the attitude it's supposedly mocking, though
― thomp, Friday, 23 March 2012 15:38 (twelve years ago) link
thx for the new screenname Deric
― a soap opera with wangs and shivs (Eric H.), Friday, 23 March 2012 15:43 (twelve years ago) link
More how quality is being defined to promote this kind of television -- which is v good and likeable, but maybe not as good as ppl say it is. So Oz used a lot of elements from sopa operas maybe...well so what, that can make for great TV.
― xyzzzz__, Friday, 23 March 2012 15:48 (twelve years ago) link
Someone start Wangs 'n' Shivs Repetory Summer Theatre in the Park.
― "Flashy...hip" (Eazy), Friday, 23 March 2012 15:48 (twelve years ago) link
I'd take the Shield over all these. But I'll go with BB.
― Jeff, Friday, 23 March 2012 15:55 (twelve years ago) link
Okay, with respect to serialized fiction (not procedurals, necessarily, because they do their own thing), I'd say that one aspect of quality is the extent to which the narrative strives for something more than "and then this happened, and then this happened, and then this happened". The extent to which you are building something (character, a world, etc.) that is greater and more coherent (a better word than 'consistent')than the sum of the individual parts. This is a lot of what ultimately pissed me off so much about L O S T: they pretended for so long that they were building up to something, but it really was just a series of relatively meaningless events that led pretty much nowhere. Oz was good at what it did, but it wasn't pretending to be, like, some intricately-woven tapestry.
Eric, you're very welcome.
― Henry David Thorough (Deric W. Haircare), Friday, 23 March 2012 15:57 (twelve years ago) link
one aspect of 'quality' is the extent to which the narrative 'strives for something', yes
― thomp, Friday, 23 March 2012 16:09 (twelve years ago) link
Oz ws done as a world, just bcz it was played for laughs or didn't go anywhere doesn't make it any less valid.
And its not as if The Wire was building to something so incredibly profound, there ws no incredible reveal as it ends at the beginning (and the last season fell apart so getting there was hard enough, hardly indicative of an 'intricately-woven tapestry'). Don't get caught up in destinations..
― xyzzzz__, Friday, 23 March 2012 17:53 (twelve years ago) link
I think you guys think I'm hatin' on Oz, but I'm not.
― Gregor Samsung (Deric W. Haircare), Friday, 23 March 2012 18:05 (twelve years ago) link
I don't think you are -- what you are saying is that at least 3 items in this poll are better. That's fine, I don't care, but I am struggling at the reasoning being applied.
― xyzzzz__, Friday, 23 March 2012 18:07 (twelve years ago) link
At the end of the day, it's largely about subjective judgment based on a number of criteria that are probably discrepant with the criteria being used by someone else who is also judging subjectively. I think people get wound up about stuff like this when they start taking it at all seriously or thinking that it actually means anything (which I have to refrain from myself, given that I could easily get wound up about The Vulture eliminating Six Feet Under in the first round by matching it against The Sopranos...I mean, A-DOY, I WONDER WHICH ONE YOU WANTED TO WIN, THE VULTURE).
― Gregor Samsung (Deric W. Haircare), Friday, 23 March 2012 18:42 (twelve years ago) link
Yeah, its all subjective, why bother :-)
Not wound up, haven't even read the article and not going to either.
― xyzzzz__, Saturday, 24 March 2012 09:02 (twelve years ago) link
fwiw, Vulture (via MZS) calls The Wire the winner: http://www.vulture.com/2012/03/drama-derby-finals-the-wire-vs-the-sopranos.html
― hot and brothered (Eric H.), Monday, 26 March 2012 16:16 (twelve years ago) link
whiney otm about buffy tbf
― less of the same (darraghmac), Monday, 26 March 2012 16:22 (twelve years ago) link
Yeah, The Wire over The Sopranos is a pretty easy choice for me (their uneven final seasons more or less cancel each other out).
― One of my faverit moive ever!!!! XD (Deric W. Haircare), Monday, 26 March 2012 16:24 (twelve years ago) link
Yeah, Whiney otm about something he won't lower himself to even watch. Sure.
Is it just the 5th season of The Wire that pales? I thought the 4th looked interesting, at least.
― hot and brothered (Eric H.), Monday, 26 March 2012 16:26 (twelve years ago) link
The fourth season is my favorite, one one of my favorite seasons of any show period. The fifth is okay, but a lot of it hinges on a plot point which is knda ridiculous and OTT (but which isn't exactly out of character for the person who sets the events in motion and is at least resolved in a satisfactory fashion).
― One of my faverit moive ever!!!! XD (Deric W. Haircare), Monday, 26 March 2012 16:29 (twelve years ago) link
I think Sopranos will edge out the Wire for me, just because Sopranos was able to maintain their tone/humor/quality for so long before any noticeable drop-off. Wire had a shorter run, same level of quality IMO, just the misstep in that last season really jars with me, compared to those first 4 seasons that were SOOOO great.
Whiney did you have a bad run-in with a vampire during a childhood halloween or something? Let's get to the root of these ISSUES, man.
― Peppermint Patty Hearst (VegemiteGrrl), Monday, 26 March 2012 16:36 (twelve years ago) link
I should get around to the Wire one of these days, huh.
I started with Breaking Bad over the summer but the like ever-building "and now this bad thing happens, bwahaha" sort of arc structure got sort of grating in a sort of P.G. Wodehouse way but with meth.
― Nicholas Pokémon (silby), Monday, 26 March 2012 16:41 (twelve years ago) link
Breaking Bad is fun, and has fantastic twists and turns, but I guess I just feel I resonate more with Silv and Bunk than Jesse.
― Peppermint Patty Hearst (VegemiteGrrl), Monday, 26 March 2012 16:43 (twelve years ago) link
silby so otm, i find Breaking Bad and a lot of shows of its ilk really tiresome and not very rewarding for that reason
― internet somebody (some dude), Monday, 26 March 2012 16:44 (twelve years ago) link
Maybe half-seriously, I would nominate the second season of Veronica Mars as one of the best (dramas) of the last 25 years. To continue the book analogy, It isn't Serious High Literature but it's a lovely tongue-in-cheek potboiler.
― aka vanilla bean (remy bean), Monday, 26 March 2012 16:46 (twelve years ago) link
I wrote "sort of" three times in eleven words up there. I could use an editor.
― Nicholas Pokémon (silby), Monday, 26 March 2012 16:46 (twelve years ago) link
yeah Veronica Mars is one of my favorites but it's never gonna be in the big consensus discussions (and of course very few people will rep for the show's whole run)
― internet somebody (some dude), Monday, 26 March 2012 16:47 (twelve years ago) link
total # eps of the four series I've seen: 3
― Literal Facepalms (Dr Morbius), Monday, 26 March 2012 16:52 (twelve years ago) link
What are you watching then? Movies?
― Jeff, Monday, 26 March 2012 16:53 (twelve years ago) link
My So Called Life and Freaks and Geeks sadly overlooked. ;_;
― Peppermint Patty Hearst (VegemiteGrrl), Monday, 26 March 2012 16:54 (twelve years ago) link
I'm not watching a story that takes 90+ hours to tell, that's for sure.
xp
― Literal Facepalms (Dr Morbius), Monday, 26 March 2012 16:55 (twelve years ago) link
Get one attention span, whippersnapper.
― One of my faverit moive ever!!!! XD (Deric W. Haircare), Monday, 26 March 2012 16:57 (twelve years ago) link
what makes a 2-hour story so much better than a 90-hour one?
― Nicholas Pokémon (silby), Monday, 26 March 2012 16:58 (twelve years ago) link
cf: Berlin Alexanderplatz
― Peppermint Patty Hearst (VegemiteGrrl), Monday, 26 March 2012 16:58 (twelve years ago) link
the deafening metronome of mortality
― aka vanilla bean (remy bean), Monday, 26 March 2012 16:58 (twelve years ago) link
I've never "gotten" Breaking Bad. The bleakness/meanness/dry humor in the initial five or six episodes was, to my tastes, toxic. It felt like self-consciously Important Television, and I've resisted going back... although I know I'd probably find things to like in it. Is it worth it? Are the episodes (as discrete units, and not strictly as they contribute to the season drama) enjoyable? At least as of the halfway point of the first season, didn't like any of the characters, I don't get off on suburban nihilism (or whatever the tone was), and I wasn't really concerned or hopeful about the outcome. If I re-tried the show, would I find more in it to like?
― aka vanilla bean (remy bean), Monday, 26 March 2012 16:59 (twelve years ago) link
Probably lot. I, like many others here, absolutely love it, but your tolerance for the bleak and nihilistic has to be fairly high. The first season is a shining beacon of happiness and ease compared to a lot of later eps. I rewatched the very first three epsiodes recently and was surprised by how light and goofy it all was in retrospect.
― I wish to incorporate disco into my small business (chap), Monday, 26 March 2012 17:01 (twelve years ago) link
Probably not, sorry.
Breaking Bad is absolutely worth it. Arguably the best show (sort of) currently on television. And as I said elsewhere, I never would've imagined saying that during the first season (which I thought was fine but nothing mindblowing).
― One of my faverit moive ever!!!! XD (Deric W. Haircare), Monday, 26 March 2012 17:01 (twelve years ago) link
Leaves more time for baseball and fucking.
― Literal Facepalms (Dr Morbius), Monday, 26 March 2012 17:02 (twelve years ago) link
I agree with you Deric, but even as a massive fan you have to concede it's not for everyone.
― I wish to incorporate disco into my small business (chap), Monday, 26 March 2012 17:02 (twelve years ago) link
And I'd argue that it isn't all bleak nihilism. There are actually a number of episodes where not a lot "happens". People sitting around and having long conversations in the living room and whatnot. Plus the show definitely has a sense of humor throughout.
― One of my faverit moive ever!!!! XD (Deric W. Haircare), Monday, 26 March 2012 17:03 (twelve years ago) link
Oh, yeah, chap. Not for everyone. You pretty much need to have the stomach to watch a relatively sympathetic character become increasingly evil and the collateral damage caused by that transformation along the way.
― One of my faverit moive ever!!!! XD (Deric W. Haircare), Monday, 26 March 2012 17:04 (twelve years ago) link
also, concision aka narrative economy; usually yields better results than sprawl.
― Literal Facepalms (Dr Morbius), Monday, 26 March 2012 17:05 (twelve years ago) link
Sopranos hands down
― the sir edmund hillary of sitting through pauly shore films (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 26 March 2012 17:06 (twelve years ago) link
Yeah, I'll take the narrative economy of Norbit over the sprawl of The Wire anyday.
― One of my faverit moive ever!!!! XD (Deric W. Haircare), Monday, 26 March 2012 17:07 (twelve years ago) link