No I know that was just my momentary annoyance at the show defanging the things that are actually supposed to be shocking/show real depravity/create contrast to other or later scenes and people.
― Back up the lesbian canoe (Laurel), Thursday, 9 June 2011 20:10 (thirteen years ago) link
xxxp
/cersei is... brittle, which is probably right./i think lena heady is kind of great as cersei. she's a straight-up villain, but her human motivations are clearly apparent. we saw the lingering traces of tender affection she bore for her late husband even through the years of betrayal and contempt that hardened her heart against him. we see the cruelty of her manipulations, but also the anxious familial devotion that drives them. i like that, the way she portrays the struggle between cersei's more humane impulses and the ruthless ambition that ultimately overwhelms them.
i think lena heady is kind of great as cersei. she's a straight-up villain, but her human motivations are clearly apparent. we saw the lingering traces of tender affection she bore for her late husband even through the years of betrayal and contempt that hardened her heart against him. we see the cruelty of her manipulations, but also the anxious familial devotion that drives them. i like that, the way she portrays the struggle between cersei's more humane impulses and the ruthless ambition that ultimately overwhelms them.
I agree! can't wait to see how she does upcoming cersei
― cop a cute abdomen (gbx), Thursday, 9 June 2011 20:11 (thirteen years ago) link
i don't really have a problem with them dropping explicit explanations of things like the pile of raped women because (A) i thought they were often kind of callow and leering in the books and (B) the SAVAGE NOMADIC HORSE LORDS are taking settled women as prisoners, what do you think's happening to them
that said if there is ever a brutal extended rape scene i just hope someone talks exposition continuously over the top of it
― difficult listening hour, Thursday, 9 June 2011 20:14 (thirteen years ago) link
yeah, i didn't need to see extended barbarian raep scenes, but it looked more like herding sheep. odd decision, when the point could easily have been made cinematically w/out wallowing in it.
― And the piano, it sounds like a carnivore (contenderizer), Thursday, 9 June 2011 20:17 (thirteen years ago) link
in general, though, less rapey is better...
My wife knew exactly what they were doing to those women without having it spelled out. She found it pretty noxious as presented.
― the fey bloggers are onto the zagat tweets (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Thursday, 9 June 2011 20:17 (thirteen years ago) link
I'm not looking for it to be more horrifying, was just expressing irritation with the whole "violence violence, that's totes fine, let's rip out some tongues on camera, guys!" but, like, Sansa and Danaerys have to be aged up and have the sexualized parts of their stories softened/erased because the pretty-much-historical truth of marrying off 14-yr-old girls and what happens to them afterward is too difficult to make titillating.
― Back up the lesbian canoe (Laurel), Thursday, 9 June 2011 20:23 (thirteen years ago) link
too difficult?
― cop a cute abdomen (gbx), Thursday, 9 June 2011 20:24 (thirteen years ago) link
fair point. can see why they'd shirk away from it tho.
― MAYBE YOU SHOULDN'T BE LIVING HERE!! (Local Garda), Thursday, 9 June 2011 20:25 (thirteen years ago) link
xpost
It's not stopping me from enjoying the show or anything. Obv.
― Back up the lesbian canoe (Laurel), Thursday, 9 June 2011 20:25 (thirteen years ago) link
I agree with you (Laurel). Also find the gratuitous nudity and violence to be kind of distracting and unnecessary in general. Almost wishing AMC would have made this show in a way. Gotta love HBO's budget, though.
xxxp's
― rockapads, Thursday, 9 June 2011 20:26 (thirteen years ago) link
was just expressing irritation with the whole "violence violence, that's totes fine, let's rip out some tongues on camera, guys!" but, like, Sansa and Danaerys have to be aged up and have the sexualized parts of their stories softened/erased
oh yeah no argument here, welcome to america
― difficult listening hour, Thursday, 9 June 2011 20:27 (thirteen years ago) link
the tongue ripping was totally o_O
― low-rent black gangster nicknamed Bootsy (DJP), Thursday, 9 June 2011 20:28 (thirteen years ago) link
Lol as I saw someone say on a comment thread recently, "How do you like America? Have you been here long?"
― Back up the lesbian canoe (Laurel), Thursday, 9 June 2011 20:29 (thirteen years ago) link
I think one of the lines this show has been walking (and is not the first to walk it -- we're rewatching the Sopranos recently and it has similar issues) is that on one hand there's this heavy theme of the consequences of noble politics. so you've got the butcher's son being killed, or the woman being raped/killed as consequence of war ("this is what war is") or the other casualties that come about because of the machinations of these nobles. at the same time, tho, there's this very real risk of aestheticizing in a pleasurable way these things we're supposed to find repulsive. in the Sopranos that's getting all hyped up and excited whenever the show shows violence. I think that show handled it by trying to implicate us in our own enjoyment (generally thru these proxy witness figures of Carmella, or Melfi), but it's less convincing when Daeny is horrified partially bc of what ppl are noting (that the full horror is not brought home) but also bc she seems to get it both ways. She gets to stop the horrifying stuff and still become the agent of those actions. I kept waiting for Drogo to put his foot down here, that it's impossible to keep an army running if you undermine their traditions of militancy (OT a little but very interesting article recently about how rape in war creates kinship bonds between soldiers -- http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2011/05/is-rape-inevitable-in-war/239480/). I'm not particularly upset about this, bc really who wants to see that much gritty realism in a television program? But I think the Sopranos, which is atm a superior show (tho who knows where GoT will end up in a season or two) didn't shy away from those uncomfortable elements.
― Mordy, Thursday, 9 June 2011 20:30 (thirteen years ago) link
I'm not sure I've fully thought this out, but just some ideas...
― Mordy, Thursday, 9 June 2011 20:31 (thirteen years ago) link
tbh if you're waiting for Drogo to put his foot down, you've misread the Drogo/Daenerys relationship
― low-rent black gangster nicknamed Bootsy (DJP), Thursday, 9 June 2011 20:32 (thirteen years ago) link
Sansa and Danaerys have to be aged up and have the sexualized parts of their stories softened/erased because the pretty-much-historical truth of marrying off 14-yr-old girls and what happens to them afterward is too difficult to make titillating.
― Back up the lesbian canoe (Laurel), Thursday, June 9, 2011 1:23 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark
well, it wouldn't be difficult to much such stuff titillating, though. it's just that we're extremely uncomfortable w/ that kind of titillation. tbh, given the initial comments itt about the rapeyness of the books, i'm kind of glad that the show has soft-pedaled this aspect.
― And the piano, it sounds like a carnivore (contenderizer), Thursday, 9 June 2011 20:34 (thirteen years ago) link
"...it wouldn't be difficult to make such stuff titillating..."
Like are Littlefoot's two lesbians comparable to the strippers at the Bada Bing Club? The former seemed designed to titillate the audience and only failed to do so bc of how obvious that attempt was. Compare to the exchange between Ralphie and the stripper in Sopranos where the conditions of violence + depravity they live in practically made it impossible to ever enjoy watching them dance. xp
Maybe not put his foot down but would he really destroy his kingdom bc she asked him too?
― Mordy, Thursday, 9 June 2011 20:35 (thirteen years ago) link
You should imagine my whole last line in the driest tone possible, fyi. Yeah, I don't want to see an HBO-icized 14yo Daenerys get raped in public in front of the entire Dothraki population either, or any number of other horrifying things that are going to happen later in their full appallingness. I think our discomfort at that kind of scene is the GOOD and right thing. I do wonder a bit if it will start to undermine later elements, though.
― Back up the lesbian canoe (Laurel), Thursday, 9 June 2011 20:37 (thirteen years ago) link
the significance of the "he can dominate everyone, if you dominate him it will drive him wild" conversation seems to have been undersold
basically Daenerys is an embodiment of the "magic punani" trope
― low-rent black gangster nicknamed Bootsy (DJP), Thursday, 9 June 2011 20:38 (thirteen years ago) link
um, i hope that wasn't spoilerz? sadface. xp
― Mordy, Thursday, 9 June 2011 20:39 (thirteen years ago) link
No, that was already supposed to have happened but the show took it out!
― Back up the lesbian canoe (Laurel), Thursday, 9 June 2011 20:39 (thirteen years ago) link
what exactly happened in the books + when?
― Mordy, Thursday, 9 June 2011 20:41 (thirteen years ago) link
on one hand there's this heavy theme of the consequences of noble politics. so you've got the butcher's son being killed, or the woman being raped/killed as consequence of war ("this is what war is") or the other casualties that come about because of the machinations of these nobles. at the same time, tho, there's this very real risk of aestheticizing in a pleasurable way these things we're supposed to find repulsive.
i think that in stories like this, we expect demonstrations of outrage at the human consequences of noble politics, but that such demonstrations are often mere pretense, social pleasantries adopted to disguise the fact that we enjoy the carnage, the spectacle and cruelty of power. we wouldn't build so many of our stories around ruthless rulers if we didn't find something fundamentally exciting about them.
― And the piano, it sounds like a carnivore (contenderizer), Thursday, 9 June 2011 20:41 (thirteen years ago) link
tbh if you're waiting for Drogo to put his foot down, you've misread the Drogo/Daenerys relationship― DJP"Maybe not put his foot down but would he really destroy his kingdom bc she asked him too?"the significance of the "he can dominate everyone, if you dominate him it will drive him wild" conversation seems to have been undersold― DJP
― DJP
"Maybe not put his foot down but would he really destroy his kingdom bc she asked him too?"
― And the piano, it sounds like a carnivore (contenderizer), Thursday, 9 June 2011 20:44 (thirteen years ago) link
stuff that should have already happened
― cop a cute abdomen (gbx), Thursday, 9 June 2011 20:46 (thirteen years ago) link
Mordy, maybe I made that up/transplanted it from another book??? I'm not finding references to it online now and I haven't read Bk 1 in a long time, but I thought that at some point Drogo had to um well that it had to be in public under the stars, in the manner of the horses that are the Dothraki lifesblood. It DID happen, didn't it??
― Back up the lesbian canoe (Laurel), Thursday, 9 June 2011 20:47 (thirteen years ago) link
he's whipped. that's all they're saying. xposts
― got electrolytes (The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall), Thursday, 9 June 2011 20:48 (thirteen years ago) link
jeez, I thought ppl were antsy about spoilers on the Doctor Who thread
― low-rent black gangster nicknamed Bootsy (DJP), Thursday, 9 June 2011 20:49 (thirteen years ago) link
we wouldn't build so many of our stories around ruthless rulers if we didn't find something fundamentally exciting about them.
I actually stopped reading the books because there wasn't anyone in them that I really found admirable, except maybe Arya. (I don't know why I don't find the Night's Watch compelling, but I don't.) Having actual human beings in the roles makes it easier.
― lukas, Thursday, 9 June 2011 20:50 (thirteen years ago) link
If I hadn't read the books I don't know that I would like people to be correcting me, or telling me what actually happened, every time I tried to discuss the show. More fun to discuss when everyone has the same data.
― rockapads, Thursday, 9 June 2011 20:55 (thirteen years ago) link
So yeah I guess we need two threads for this now? One for those who've read the books and one for those who haven't?
― the fey bloggers are onto the zagat tweets (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Thursday, 9 June 2011 20:55 (thirteen years ago) link
not having read the books tho, i have no problem being brought up to speed on things the series might have omitted.xpost
― got electrolytes (The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall), Thursday, 9 June 2011 20:56 (thirteen years ago) link
my comment was based entirely on what was presented on the show
― low-rent black gangster nicknamed Bootsy (DJP), Thursday, 9 June 2011 20:59 (thirteen years ago) link
I mean seriously, what has this board come to if I can't use several cryptic posts to set up a "magic punani" joke
― low-rent black gangster nicknamed Bootsy (DJP), Thursday, 9 June 2011 21:00 (thirteen years ago) link
Going back to the show ... did anyone else hate the scene with Jon Snow and the undead wight? Didn't work for me.
― polyphonic, Thursday, 9 June 2011 21:03 (thirteen years ago) link
well it didn't bother me...
― magic punani (The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall), Thursday, 9 June 2011 21:03 (thirteen years ago) link
I thought it was OK. What didn't you like about it?
― rockapads, Thursday, 9 June 2011 21:04 (thirteen years ago) link
Laurel - I'm re-reading them now and the Dany & Drogo thing your thinking of is when she decides to ride him instead of being mounted. She takes him out to some soft moss in the middle of camp and they go at it.
― EZ Snappin, Thursday, 9 June 2011 21:04 (thirteen years ago) link
I didn't like how the wight looked and moved at all. It felt like a z-budget horror scene. Like something out of a Mark Borchardt production.
― polyphonic, Thursday, 9 June 2011 21:05 (thirteen years ago) link
had no problem with the zombie scene
― And the piano, it sounds like a carnivore (contenderizer), Thursday, 9 June 2011 21:07 (thirteen years ago) link
lol. just wanted to make sure you wasn't giving the game away.
― And the piano, it sounds like a carnivore (contenderizer), Thursday, 9 June 2011 21:08 (thirteen years ago) link
the wight being such a fat football hooligan made it less scary
― MAYBE YOU SHOULDN'T BE LIVING HERE!! (Local Garda), Thursday, 9 June 2011 21:08 (thirteen years ago) link
Hm, thanks. I thought that scene was the analog to/sign of her adaptation to her status in contrast to an earlier scene in which he was um the agressor and it was against her will. Must have confused it w another book in the intervening years, tho.
― Back up the lesbian canoe (Laurel), Thursday, 9 June 2011 21:08 (thirteen years ago) link
daeny was clearly raped on the evening of her wedding, right? is that what you're talking about? didn't seem to happen in front of anybody though, at least not on the show.
― And the piano, it sounds like a carnivore (contenderizer), Thursday, 9 June 2011 21:11 (thirteen years ago) link
That might have been part of the problem. He certainly didn't look like a ranger. Was he supposed to be?
― polyphonic, Thursday, 9 June 2011 21:14 (thirteen years ago) link