http://www.salon.com/news/politics/war_room/2011/03/21/congress_war_powers_the_president/index.html
― (The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Monday, 21 March 2011 22:20 (thirteen years ago) link
shoulda said shoot the shit out of his planes, sorry
― utterfilth (whatever), Monday, 21 March 2011 22:21 (thirteen years ago) link
lol'ing at the insinuation that congress would somehow do the right thing here (and in a timely fashion too)
― Hyper Rescue Troop (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 21 March 2011 22:22 (thirteen years ago) link
Nah, I'm pretty sure Congress would have given him the authority, even if it is Barack Hussein Obama -- they're chickenshits when it comes to this.
― Rich Lolwry (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 21 March 2011 22:24 (thirteen years ago) link
The real question: would Obama have defined "this" as a war?
― Rich Lolwry (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 21 March 2011 22:26 (thirteen years ago) link
eh, semantics. more useful to think about what the goals are and how best to achieve them.
― Hyper Rescue Troop (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 21 March 2011 22:26 (thirteen years ago) link
uh waht
― Rich Lolwry (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 21 March 2011 22:29 (thirteen years ago) link
presidents haven't asked Congress for shit regarding the military since Vietnam, a little lat to go putting the rabbit back in the hat, it just isn't going to happen. whether or Obama would define this as a "war" or not is mostly irrelevant. the real question at hand is how far does our moral responsibility to the Libyan opposition extend, and what does meeting that obligation entail.
― Hyper Rescue Troop (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 21 March 2011 22:32 (thirteen years ago) link
I'm sure glad we got all this sorted out during the last administration.
― Kerm, Monday, 21 March 2011 22:34 (thirteen years ago) link
Sorry, but that question also requires us to ask whether we have any obligation at all to the Libyan opposition, whatever it is. I'm pretty sure you'd be more uncomfortable if it was Dubya as president.
― Rich Lolwry (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 21 March 2011 22:36 (thirteen years ago) link
I'm pretty sure you'd be more uncomfortable if it was Dubya as president.
ugh
― difficult listening hour, Monday, 21 March 2011 22:36 (thirteen years ago) link
think you have an obligation to the UN. or not! idk. odd debate not happening here between antis who say it's all in america's self-interest and antis who say it's not in the national interest at all.
― BIG GERTRUDE aka the steindriver (history mayne), Monday, 21 March 2011 22:38 (thirteen years ago) link
i would be more uncomfortable if george w. bush was president, yes
― max, Monday, 21 March 2011 22:39 (thirteen years ago) link
because george w. bush was a shitty, incompetent president
― max, Monday, 21 March 2011 22:40 (thirteen years ago) link
Had to say it! I'm receptive to the administration's argument that abandoning a "pro-reform" movement would send crippling shockwaves across the region; but that's where my certainty ends. I'm just shocked that some of ILX's leading liberals are suddenly indifferent to the reach of a president's war powers.
― Rich Lolwry (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 21 March 2011 22:40 (thirteen years ago) link
also Gates > Rumsfeld
― ryan, Monday, 21 March 2011 22:40 (thirteen years ago) link
What a comfort!
― Rich Lolwry (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 21 March 2011 22:41 (thirteen years ago) link
my feeling is that a u.s. president has zero 'responsibility' or 'obligation' to intervene in a civil war on the other side of the world, as opposed to, say, swearing an oath to adhere to the constitution.
― (The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Monday, 21 March 2011 22:41 (thirteen years ago) link
radical, i know
seems like ppl may think it's all cool until there are troops on the ground
― call all destroyer, Monday, 21 March 2011 22:41 (thirteen years ago) link
It's also possible that the tension between HRC's hawkishness here and Gates' natural caution eventually produces a mission with real outlines.
― Rich Lolwry (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 21 March 2011 22:42 (thirteen years ago) link
Sorry, but that question also requires us to ask whether we have any obligation at all to the Libyan opposition, whatever it is.
This is a perfectly legitimate question, and one I'm largely ambivalent about. On the one hand Kaddawfy seems pretty bad, and I don't like the prospect of him massacring his own people from a humanitarian perspective. And unlike other, much messier ethnic conflicts and civil wars, it seems pretty clear-cut from the recent sequence of events who the agressor is. On the other hand, should we be the world's cops? well we are in many ways, whether I like it or not. But the options here either seemed to be 1) the US acts unilaterally to intervene, possibly with disastrous consequences. I was against this. 2) We intervene in collaboration with other allies and regional powers to present as much of a unified front as possible and share the burden/responsibility of either significantly shortening or resolving this conflict. This is what happened, and while I'm very apprehensive about the outcome, this seems like the best option to me. 3) We do nothing, Kaddafeee butchers the opposition, continues to rule with an iron fist, now even more angry and paranoid than before. This is not really acceptable to me on a moral level.
you insult me.
― Hyper Rescue Troop (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 21 March 2011 22:43 (thirteen years ago) link
i mean i dont know what to say, alfred! i am more uncomfortable with a terrible president and his incompetent DoD running a military intervention
― max, Monday, 21 March 2011 22:43 (thirteen years ago) link
I'm glad you're that convinced of Obama's superiority to Bush.
― Rich Lolwry (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 21 March 2011 22:44 (thirteen years ago) link
I sure as hell am
― Hyper Rescue Troop (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 21 March 2011 22:44 (thirteen years ago) link
(but, yeah, Obama's appropriation of much of Bush's foreign policy guidelines are for now irrelevant -- don't wanna derail thread)
― Rich Lolwry (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 21 March 2011 22:45 (thirteen years ago) link
btw, Shakes, I vastly prefer your spelling of Q's name.
Also: your framing of the argument is the most concise I've seen to date. Dubya line officially retracted.
― Rich Lolwry (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 21 March 2011 22:47 (thirteen years ago) link
The Corner breaks it down for us: "Obama’s pusillanimity has been hugely magnified by the contrast with the women directing his foreign policy and the fact that they nagged him to attack Libya until he gave in."
http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/262607/they-know-who-wears-pants-country-mark-krikorian
― Pop is superior to all other genres (DL), Monday, 21 March 2011 22:51 (thirteen years ago) link
lol these guys
― Hyper Rescue Troop (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 21 March 2011 22:52 (thirteen years ago) link
I'm as wary of the US flexing its muscles overseas as anyone, but hardline isolationism is difficult for me to swallow.
― boots get knocked from here to czechoslovakier (milo z), Monday, 21 March 2011 22:53 (thirteen years ago) link
"Zero responsibility" is basically Ron Paul's argument, isn't it?
― Pop is superior to all other genres (DL), Monday, 21 March 2011 22:56 (thirteen years ago) link
x-post: it is for me too, but i'm in favor of overseas interventions being carried out legally with congressional authorization, not whenever a president decides it's a good idea.
― (The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Monday, 21 March 2011 22:57 (thirteen years ago) link
I'm on board with the War Powers Resolution being unconstitutional and all, but it's still on the books so...
― Matt Armstrong, Monday, 21 March 2011 22:58 (thirteen years ago) link
The Corner has been schizophrenic the last few days; these events have really confused them. Andy "Let's rape Moslems with a rolled-up copy of the U.S. Constitution" McCarthy opposes this while a couple of others wonder why Obama's been such a pussy.
― Rich Lolwry (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 21 March 2011 22:59 (thirteen years ago) link
please alfred, the word is "pusillanimous".
― difficult listening hour, Monday, 21 March 2011 23:00 (thirteen years ago) link
does it not matter to you that waiting for congress' rubber stamp would have been too late anyway JD
so glad you think taking the time to thoroughly resolve legal arguments that have been rather unambiguously ignored for 50+ years is more important than stopping people half the world away from dying. Supreme Court's docket is totally open this year I think, let's prep some briefs! 5 years later: we have a ruling! Too bad everybody is dead in Libya by then.xp
― Hyper Rescue Troop (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 21 March 2011 23:04 (thirteen years ago) link
btw the "three female advisors" story is 'overstated':
As has been reported, the crucial decisions were made at a pair of meetings Tuesday, which an Administration official said were far from the showdowns depicted in some accounts. Power, for instance, was present at a 4:10 p.m. meeting but didn't speak, an official said; Clinton, overseas, wasn't patched in to that meeting. Obama, told a no-fly zone wouldn't be enough to stop Qadhafi, sent Donilon to draw up other political and military options in the Situation Room, the official said; Donilon brought his notes to a 9:00 p.m. principals' meeting, at which the course was set. "Everyone started with a healthy degree of skepticism," White House spokesman Tommy Vietor said. "But everyone moved toward the final decision based on the president's urging, but also because of what was happening on the ground, with Qadhafi moving toward Bengazi and [saying] he would show no mercy."This isn't to say that a version of the narrative isn't true: Some of the prominent women on the foreign policy team, notably -- an official said -- Rice, did push hard for intervention, and did speak in key meetings. But the notion of an internal battle fought and won, or a shift in the poles of internal politics or Obama's evolving doctrine, seems to overstate the point.
"Everyone started with a healthy degree of skepticism," White House spokesman Tommy Vietor said. "But everyone moved toward the final decision based on the president's urging, but also because of what was happening on the ground, with Qadhafi moving toward Bengazi and [saying] he would show no mercy."
This isn't to say that a version of the narrative isn't true: Some of the prominent women on the foreign policy team, notably -- an official said -- Rice, did push hard for intervention, and did speak in key meetings. But the notion of an internal battle fought and won, or a shift in the poles of internal politics or Obama's evolving doctrine, seems to overstate the point.
http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0311/Boys_against_girls_over_Libya.html
― max, Monday, 21 March 2011 23:04 (thirteen years ago) link
Politico, don't ever change.
― Rich Lolwry (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 21 March 2011 23:10 (thirteen years ago) link
haha i only bring it up here because NRO is citing it in typical classy fashion
― max, Monday, 21 March 2011 23:12 (thirteen years ago) link
we should poll spelling variations of the leader of libya's name
― call all destroyer, Monday, 21 March 2011 23:14 (thirteen years ago) link
i think i've seen at least 20
― call all destroyer, Monday, 21 March 2011 23:15 (thirteen years ago) link
xhotaphi
― Ismael Klata, Monday, 21 March 2011 23:18 (thirteen years ago) link
I heard on NPR an hour ago that Obama had "informed" Congressional leaders, which I suppose meets the requirements of the War Powers Act (which probably needs a constitutional challenge or two). I'm not crazy about what's going on constitutionally either.
― Rich Lolwry (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, March 21, 2011 10:12 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark
fwiw in his "informing" of congressional leaders he did specifically cite war powers
― Godspeed HOOS! Black Steendriver (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Monday, 21 March 2011 23:42 (thirteen years ago) link
For some historical perspective, it's worth nothing that both Gingrich and (esp) Bob Dole had Clinton's back on Bosnia and Kosovo.
― Rich Lolwry (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 21 March 2011 23:50 (thirteen years ago) link
Samantha Power's A Problem From Hell is worth reading.
― Rich Lolwry (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 21 March 2011 23:51 (thirteen years ago) link
(I know both were out of power by the time Kosovo happened, btw)
― Rich Lolwry (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 21 March 2011 23:52 (thirteen years ago) link
both Gingrich and (esp) Bob Dole had Clinton's back on Bosnia and Kosovo
shoulda shared a cell.
for you Biden fans: Impeach Bam
― Fuck bein' hard, Dr Morbz is complicated (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 00:08 (thirteen years ago) link
Really love the particular rightwing attack on this that is basically "nothing that a group of women support (EVEN if they are UN ambassador/Secretary of State) should be taken seriously" because looool women are dumb, right?!
that said, I don't really get what is the end game here
― daria, Tuesday, 22 March 2011 00:20 (thirteen years ago) link
women! never planning ahead
― max, Tuesday, 22 March 2011 00:20 (thirteen years ago) link