2008 Primaries Thread

that's a drink tag, come on

xp

ban john kerry

You can't shuck and jive at a press conference. All those moves you can make with the press don't work when you're in someone's living room.

- new york attorney general and hillary supporter andrew cuomo offering his deep analysis of obama

uh...

ughhhh

fuck i was hoping this wouldn't get totally insane with racial politics, but between donna brazile and jesse jackson jr.'s statements over the past few days + shit like that, this is gonna get bumpy

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/images/andrewcuomo-small.jpg

brazile...? what did she say?

the congestion pricing thing totally fell apart though didn't it?

yeah. as maybe it should have, it was an interesting idea but in some ways it would have functioned as manhattan imposing a tax on queens and brooklyn (anyone who knows more about it feel free to correct me on this if I'm rong)

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0108/Brazile_on_Bill_Depressing.html

david brooks said on pbs last night obama has the educated, elitist, "bill bradley voters" AND the black vote so he still has a shot.

what did mark shields say

"jesus christ why am i sitting anywhere near you, you fucking halfwit"

he didn't agree, but his comments weren't as memorable as brooks'

oh yeah...he said the african american vote is important and in play in southern states

the phrase "i found my voice" bugged me the moment i heard it... and the more i think about Bill's politicking in NH the angrier i get: this is the 'fairytale' comment, which was a response to a question about mark penn's judgement:

Second, it is wrong that Senator Obama got to go through 15 debates trumpeting his superior judgment and how he had been against the war in every year, numerating the years, and never got asked one time, not once, ‘Well, how could you say, that when you said in 2004 you didn’t know how you would have voted on the resolution? You said in 2004 there was no difference between you and George Bush on the war and you took that speech you’re now running on off your website in 2004 and there’s no difference in your voting record and Hillary’s ever since?’ Give me a break. “This whole thing is the biggest fairy tale I’ve ever seen…So you can talk about Mark Penn all you want.

another classic brooks paraphrase, this time on edwards: 60 % of americans dont like big government and only 20% don't like corporations so he doesn't give a shit about edwards

thats the classic republican move of creating the illusion that big government and big, multinational corporations are somehow seperate, distinct entities

Bill is totally misrepresenting Obama there, no surprise

ugh why is this party so dysfunctional

the hilary camp keeps using that tact w/obama. hilary has said a number of times that obama voted for the patriot act and war funding too.

trying to crush everyone's hope for change?

My impression of Obama is that he probably would have voted for the Iraq war resolution if he had been in the US Senate at that time. It's one thing to give a speech opposing the war when you're a state senator, it's quite another to vote against a resolution that enjoys high public support and is being presented as necessary in order for the country to take a hard-line against a dictator on a matter of national security when you're on the national stage. This is all speculation, of course, but I think that his centrist instincts would have probably trumped his anti-war skepticism.

you're probably right

when will the obama campaign bring up the fact that he's held elected office longer than HRC?

This is all speculation, of course, but I think that his centrist instincts would have probably trumped his anti-war skepticism.

totally unfair speculation - stick to the facts. Obama was against the war at the outset. Hillary voted for it and parrotted Dubya's talking points justifying it.

There were actual principled senators that voted against the resolution, you know.

xxxpost, what the hell does that have to do with anything? what's important is that he came out against it when it was in vogue to support it.

Mikulski, Feingold, etc.

(x-post)

yah he prob wouldve voted for it wtf is this based on besides "centrist instincts"

I'm just going by what he says about national security now. He's willing to keep the use of force on the table for dealing with Pakistan - so why wouldn't he have wanted to keep it on the table for dealing with Saddam?

gee, I dunno cuz we have ACTUAL ENEMIES in Pakistan? and Saddam posed no threat (as any non-idiot in 2002 could've told you?)

the context of obama's statement that he did not know how he would have voted on the war resolution comes from an interview at the DNC by a reporter trying to find inconsistency with his endorsement of john kerry and their differing stances on the war, in case anyone forgot

I mean lolz @ muslim countries they're all the same, lets bomb 'em amirite

WAHT THE DIF BETWEEN AFGHANISTAN AND IRAQ ITS ALL ALQUEDA RIGHT DUUUUUHH

"I said then that I certainly do not oppose all wars, but dumb wars -- rash wars."

the 'use of force in pakistan' issue looks dangerous on its face but it's of a piece with criticizing the bush approach to foreign policy, where every decision is warped around the black hole of iraq: scrimp on afghanistan, talk shit about iran, effectively ignore al qaeda everywhere outside of baghdad, and make a devil's bargain with musharraf (who we then have to babysit no matter what)

lol xps

gee, I dunno cuz we have ACTUAL ENEMIES in Pakistan? and Saddam posed no threat (as any non-idiot in 2002 could've told you?)

-- Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, January 10, 2008 6:41 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

um what the fuck. this is some roadrunner amnesia shit.

So you're saying that the difference at Obama vs. Hillary is not that he's more reluctant to use force in general, or that he has a better appreciation for the virtues of diplomacy versus military action - but just that he is better at reading intelligence reports and deciding who the real enemies are?

GO WAY

sorry o nate that's bullshit

"i bet if he were hillary, he would have voted for it"

the possible difference between obama and hillary is that he's more skeptical (it would probably be sexist to say he has better instincts or is smarter) than she is. like a lot of us, but perhaps unlike many senators, it just smelled wrong to him.

the context of obama's statement that he did not know how he would have voted on the war resolution comes from an interview at the DNC by a reporter trying to find inconsistency with his endorsement of john kerry and their differing stances on the war, in case anyone forgot

he's explained, as was obvious anyway, that his statement was intended to protect the nominee, but there isn't really any question how he would have voted

there isn't really any question how he would have voted

would he be in the position he's in now if he'd been a senator then and voted against?

I'm sayin it looks to me like Obama has better judgment and is less likely to be complicit in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people for the sake of political expediency or because of incredible gullibility

x-post

well his claim is that he'll do what's right on the merits, rather than deciding based on GOP talking points domestic political calculus.

whether that will be true, yeah who knows. HRC's record in this regard is not good... the whole country's was not good in 02! 80% bush approval, remember that? seems like a billion years ago

would he be in the position he's in now if he'd been a senator then and voted against?

number of senators voted out of office cuz they voted against the war = 0

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2008_01/012874.php

Apparently Obama has also voiced support for missile strikes against Iran if necessary to prevent them from acquiring nuclear weapons:

Democrats and Iran: Look Who Supports Bush's Next War

hillary'd have this thing locked if she'd voted no - of course she wouldnt be hillery then

contrary-to-fact hypothetical situations are really the worst, least revealing questions a reporter could ask. anyway, as far as i know, hillary hasn't been very vocal expressing any regret about her vote authorizing force.