dude should ring in to any answers?, someone basically says that every week
― Jefferson Mansplain (DG), Wednesday, 23 February 2011 20:32 (thirteen years ago) link
not always w/comedy speech impediment obv.
― Jefferson Mansplain (DG), Wednesday, 23 February 2011 20:34 (thirteen years ago) link
The true question is: what if the "wall of tyranny and human rights abuses that we have helped to erect" is precisely what sustains and generates the "rolling ocean of Muslim unreason"?
again with the misplaced 'precisely'. if the world really did fit together like a balanced equation, sure, maybe... is he talking about egypt? i think the case of egypt shows that we shouldn't accept, as zizek does, the 'ocean of muslim unreason' assumption. but it would be bad history to try to explain away the muslim brotherhood (which does meet the description of muslim and unreasonable) solely as a response to... well, someone's definition of what the US was doing in egypt in the 1970s. im pretty sure the MB was being whaled on by the egyptian government a long time before the US could really be called an ally. i dunno if this is a bit empirical sry.
― for all the fucked-up children of this world we give you 1p3 (history mayne), Thursday, 24 February 2011 00:05 (thirteen years ago) link
i think even zizek must know he cld do w/ a dose of empiricism from time to time
― ogmor, Thursday, 24 February 2011 00:33 (thirteen years ago) link
idk if zizek deals w/ his whole biography anywhere of if he's too self-involved to attempt to historicize/contextualize his own work/ideology as he does everyone else's
― ogmor, Thursday, 24 February 2011 00:38 (thirteen years ago) link
h-mayne: nah he's not talking about egypt, that's from his 2008 book — just struck me as oddly relevant.
and uh... wtf, he's obviously not accepting any kind of argument about "muslim unreason" — pretty sure he's repeating dude's absurd rhetoric in order to further mock him.
― on some outer space shit (bernard snowy), Thursday, 24 February 2011 02:17 (thirteen years ago) link
should have said: "precisely in order to" etc etc
he puts "muslim unreason" in quotes, but i don't think the sentence makes any sense whatsoever if we think he doesn't mean it in some way.
what is the true question here, if we don't believe in the "rolling ocean"? or, are we also to discount the existence of the "wall of tyranny and human rights abuses", which are also in quotes?
i get he's not talking specifically abt egypt, but, well, what is he talking about if not egypt? to which situation is he referring?
― for all the fucked-up children of this world we give you 1p3 (history mayne), Thursday, 24 February 2011 08:49 (thirteen years ago) link
right but like... the dude he's quoting is basically saying "welp, they can't have democracy because our wall of tyranny is the only thing holding back the rolling ocean of unreason, so we might as well enjoy getting our hands dirty and to hell with scruples!", to which zizek replies that, 'convincing' as this argument may appear (and it does, because it is almost tautological), it perhaps overlooks one or two things...
I mean, is it really controversial to assert that "unreason", terror, and religious fundamentalism have been promoted rather than cured by US support for repressive dictators? I thought this was like, post-cold war politics 101
― on some outer space shit (bernard snowy), Thursday, 24 February 2011 12:13 (thirteen years ago) link
or in other words, I don't think he's referring to any particular "situation" so much is he is criticizing a particular approach to american foreign policy
― on some outer space shit (bernard snowy), Thursday, 24 February 2011 12:14 (thirteen years ago) link
I mean, is it really controversial to assert that "unreason", terror, and religious fundamentalism have been promoted rather than cured by US support for repressive dictators? I thought this was like, post-cold war politics 101― on some outer space shit (bernard snowy), Thursday, February 24, 2011 12:13 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark
― on some outer space shit (bernard snowy), Thursday, February 24, 2011 12:13 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark
it's not controversial, but it's not incontrovertible in a fair number of cases, egypt being the example which i gave, as the most obviously favoured-by-the-US of all middle eastern dictators. to repeat, islamic fundamentalism there did not begin as a result of US policy.
either way, saying that it is 'precisely' US policy that actually generated (as against promoted, failed to prevent, etc) islamic fundamentalism is wrong.
his whole appeal rests on 'precise' paradoxes; he wouldn't be a big shot without them.
― for all the fucked-up children of this world we give you 1p3 (history mayne), Thursday, 24 February 2011 13:33 (thirteen years ago) link
dude I think you're conflating ideologiekritik with philosophy
what is "precise" is the way in which different aspects of the world-view in question (Harris') reinforce one another towards a definite end. there are pieces there that more-or-less correspond to certain realities (US-backed human-rights abuses on the one hand, an angry "ocean" of "unreason[able]" people [i.e. mass popular discontent?] on the other) but somehow they are not put together correctly ('maybe some of the things they're angry about are... our fault?').
but whatever we're obviously not gonna change each other's minds on this one
― on some outer space shit (bernard snowy), Thursday, 24 February 2011 15:10 (thirteen years ago) link
I haven't chimed in on this bc I think that Zizek's comment is one of his less interesting, less insightful bits, but the fact that you guys keep arguing about it makes me think that you're seeing something there that I'm not. Isn't linking our support for human rights violations to anti-American sentiment a really old argument at this point? Like Glenn Greenwald or half a dozen people on ILX make that point every week. Is he adding anything to it?
― Mordy, Thursday, 24 February 2011 17:02 (thirteen years ago) link
Why does he SNIFF so much when he's talking?
― Chelvis, Wednesday, 9 March 2011 03:16 (thirteen years ago) link
this guy has used mountains of cocaine.
― by another name (amateurist), Sunday, May 23, 2010 9:58 PM (9 months ago) Bookmark
― ℳℴℯ ❤\(◕‿◕✿ (Princess TamTam), Wednesday, 9 March 2011 03:41 (thirteen years ago) link
In seminars, Lacan acts as analysand, he “freely associates,” improvises, jumps, addressing his public, which is thus put into the role of a kind of collective analyst. In comparison, his writings are more condensed, formulaic, and they throw at the reader unreadable ambiguous propositions which often appear like oracles, challenging the reader to start working on them, to translate them into clear theses and provide examples and logical demonstrations of them. In contrast to the usual academic procedure, where the author formulates a thesis and then tries to sustain it through arguments, Lacan not only more often than not leaves this work to the reader – the reader has often even to discern what, exactly, is Lacan’s actual thesis among the multitude of conflicting formulations or the ambiguity of a single oracle-like formulation.
zizek u have no self awareness do u
http://www.lacan.com/zizhowto.html
― HOOStory is back. Fasten your steenbelts. (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Monday, 21 March 2011 21:03 (thirteen years ago) link
Zizek calls himself a Lacanian all the time
― Mordy, Monday, 21 March 2011 22:28 (thirteen years ago) link
has he weighed in on libya yet? he was super gung ho about the egyptian revolution and projected all kinds of utopian aims on to its protagonists.
― BIG GERTRUDE aka the steindriver (history mayne), Monday, 21 March 2011 22:31 (thirteen years ago) link
It's a silly complaint since liberalism as it is practiced in America IS economic neoliberalism. People who oppose neoliberalism are either the detoothed hippies who cannot engage the system in a meaningful way, or the radical terrorists who move the battlefield from an economic confrontation to one of violent force. But if you're gonna take about liberal democracy in the US you have to talk about economic neoliberalism.
― Mordy, Friday, December 17, 2010 7:40 AM (3 months ago) Bookmark
so incredibly offensive on so many levels
― sleeve, Monday, 21 March 2011 22:54 (thirteen years ago) link
so be less offended
― Mordy, Monday, 21 March 2011 23:44 (thirteen years ago) link
omg mordman
― Godspeed HOOS! Black Steendriver (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Monday, 21 March 2011 23:45 (thirteen years ago) link
lol, are either of you going to point out to me the relevant non-neoliberal groups in America?
― Mordy, Monday, 21 March 2011 23:47 (thirteen years ago) link
beliebers
― max, Monday, 21 March 2011 23:47 (thirteen years ago) link
never change with your either/or simplifications. Mordy. fortunately the real world is more complex.
by the way there are friends of mine who are gonna be in jail for years to come for some serious environmental sabotage actions and I do not appreciate your spoiled liberal NYC characterizations of their motives.
― sleeve, Monday, 21 March 2011 23:48 (thirteen years ago) link
dude, take a look around. the neoliberal superstructure is more powerful than ever. how did your friends challenge the system whatsoever?
― Mordy, Monday, 21 March 2011 23:49 (thirteen years ago) link
and btw: environmental sabotage probably falls under the move to radical violence category so Zizek accounts for that (and kinda favorably too)
― Mordy, Monday, 21 March 2011 23:50 (thirteen years ago) link
+ btw sleeve, lol at you of all ppl accusing someone of simplifications
why would I bother trying to point you towards some oppositional groups when you reserve the right to define "relevancy", like you think you have the right to define the terms of every single argument you get into.
fwiw I think the farmer's market movement has done more good than the friends I reference.
― sleeve, Monday, 21 March 2011 23:51 (thirteen years ago) link
lol ok. why don't u go be angry somewhere else
― Mordy, Monday, 21 March 2011 23:52 (thirteen years ago) link
why don't you stop simplifying complex elements of resistance to fit your kneejerk prejudices?
― sleeve, Monday, 21 March 2011 23:53 (thirteen years ago) link
you're right. i should stop. there. i stopped. thx for changing my life.
― Mordy, Monday, 21 March 2011 23:54 (thirteen years ago) link
its amazing i get up to take a shit and its like the muppet babies broke loose
― Godspeed HOOS! Black Steendriver (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Monday, 21 March 2011 23:55 (thirteen years ago) link
gross
― BIG GERTRUDE aka the steindriver (history mayne), Monday, 21 March 2011 23:56 (thirteen years ago) link
think we maybe all need a reminder this isn't the US Politics thread but the This is the thread where we talk about Slavoj Zizek... thread
― Mordy, Tuesday, 22 March 2011 00:01 (thirteen years ago) link
on cspan atm talking about wikileaks
― Mordy, Wednesday, 6 July 2011 03:23 (twelve years ago) link
w/ Amy Goodman
― Mordy, Wednesday, 6 July 2011 03:27 (twelve years ago) link
oh, and Julian apparently! just noticed him sitting there
yeah i saw that on saturday, kind of fun, mostly just recaps his piece in the LRB about how wikileaks has changed things and implores assange not to let wikileaks be subsumed into the "freedom of the press" thing and maintain their independence as something more than radical "journalists" and shit
― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Wednesday, 6 July 2011 03:30 (twelve years ago) link
this idea that censorship indicates something positive about a country bc that censorship is needed is such a stupid idea and i think it's really indicative of a failing of the left to grapple meaningfully w/ these reasonably open democratic societies such that there's this natural yearning to go back to a moment of censorship where it becomes more clear what needs to be resisted.
― Mordy, Wednesday, 6 July 2011 04:05 (twelve years ago) link
also a failing of zizek to stop himself from saying whatever is the craziest thing at a particular moment
goin to a conference in oct where among those in attendance will be the director of "zizek!"
― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Sunday, 7 August 2011 07:59 (twelve years ago) link
have u seen the examined life by the same woman that also features zizek & is a lot better both for his segment & the rest imo?
― uh oh whats your fantasy (flopson), Sunday, 7 August 2011 08:01 (twelve years ago) link
also she is jeff mangum's girlfriend or wife
i just saw it last night, by coincidence! and yeah his segment is fun for sure
lol @ michael hardt
― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Sunday, 7 August 2011 09:25 (twelve years ago) link
more like michael fardt
― max, Sunday, 7 August 2011 12:15 (twelve years ago) link
empire by michael fardt and antonio naglri
― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Sunday, 7 August 2011 18:23 (twelve years ago) link
examined life is worse than the zizek documentary
― markers, Sunday, 7 August 2011 18:24 (twelve years ago) link
astra taylor is cool though, she spoke at my school the semester after i graduated
rewatched zizek last night for funzies and realized that even there he was on this bead of trying not to be ~appropriated into the liberal consensus~
i always lol when he says "this, i claim,"
― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Sunday, 7 August 2011 18:26 (twelve years ago) link
http://i.imgur.com/RMTRC.jpg
― http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKbsdMRqhcI (Princess TamTam), Monday, 8 August 2011 02:33 (twelve years ago) link