2008 Primaries Thread

I’m seriously hung.

take it to the crush thread.

To me the line and delivery were anything but frat boy-ish; he sounded cool and distanced, much better than McCain's pandering "candidate of change" one-liner.

I agree. I think that moment was well played by both candidates.

To me the line and delivery were anything but frat boy-ish; he sounded cool and distanced, much better than McCain's pandering "candidate of change" one-liner.

I hear that view. Clearly, Obama was trying to sound cool and distanced: Like the frontrunner. We just heard it differently.

FWIW, I think Obama and Edwards came off like frat-boys too often during that debate (e.g., Obama's "Oh, I was watching the playoff game backstage" line). I don't think that lines like that are are good for Obama (who woos voters with his powerful, graceful, elegant and hyper-serious rhetorical style), at least not in the primary.

stop attacking their gender, Dan

i see what you did there

ugh

do you think the substance of George's tv semiotics were lol-worthy, Alfred, or his exercise of them/use of the word? dude was a Rhodes Scholar, y'know (and summa at Columbia the year before Barack, tho the latter's biography suggests there's no reason they would know each other).

the columbia semiotics program at columbia sucked in the late 80s

at least, at columbia it did

hi-fives, gershy, but i'm actually physically able to stick out my lower lip

lol daria poking her head in after the big win to accuse ilx and everyone else of sexism.

do you think the substance of George's tv semiotics were lol-worthy, Alfred, or his exercise of them/use of the word? d

The substance, gabbs, such as it was. I don't much care – neither do most voters – about where and why Madeleine Albright and Wes Clarke were "positioned" last Thursday, but Michael Deaver would be proud.

i mean theres like nothing hillary couldve ever done to piss people off - like repeatedly rolling over for the worst administration of my lifetime on the most important issues of the day.

but anyway i had anxiety dreams abt the election last night which then seamlessly morphed into dreams abt selling records on ebay where i was going to be out of town when the auctions ended and unable to ship them out - i kept canceling the auctions but then when id look at my selling page there were more there.

Stephen Colbert's best line on his opening night was "Someone was up there wearing a Madeleine Albright mask."

I wish we could vote for candidates in the primaries without worrying about their electability.

I do it; not that hard.

Oh, Alfred's gonna love Mo Dowd quoting Ruth Gordon & Garson Kanin re Rodham's boohooing. Her best stuff:

There was a poignancy about the moment, seeing Hillary crack with exhaustion from decades of yearning to be the principal rather than the plus-one. But there was a whiff of Nixonian self-pity about her choking up. What was moving her so deeply was her recognition that the country was failing to grasp how much it needs her. In a weirdly narcissistic way, she was crying for us. But it was grimly typical of her that what finally made her break down was the prospect of losing.

As Spencer Tracy said to Katharine Hepburn in “Adam’s Rib,” “Here we go again, the old juice. Guaranteed heart melter. A few female tears, stronger than any acid.”

The Clintons once more wriggled out of a tight spot at the last minute. Bill churlishly dismissed the Obama phenom as “the biggest fairy tale I’ve ever seen,” but for the last few days, it was Hillary who seemed in danger of being Cinderella. She became emotional because she feared that she had reached her political midnight, when she would suddenly revert to the school girl with geeky glasses and frizzy hair, smart but not the favorite. All those years in the shadow of one Natural, only to face the prospect of being eclipsed by another Natural?

...Her argument against Obama now boils down to an argument against idealism, which is probably the lowest and most unlikely point to which any Clinton could sink. The people from Hope are arguing against hope.

Wow, I totally missed Billy Blythe's "big Obama fairytale" line. As big as how liberally you were gonna govern in your second term, you fat criminal fuck?

Also loved Dowd's description of her walking into the "office" to catch her fellow fools obsessing over HRC'S Muskie moment.

What was moving her so deeply was her recognition that the country was failing to grasp how much it needs her. In a weirdly narcissistic way, she was crying for us. But it was grimly typical of her that what finally made her break down was the prospect of losing.

surprisingly otm

Clinton/Obama starting to sound pretty good to me at this point. Not that I think Obama should concede, or that he doesn't have a (slim) chance to win the nomination, but I hope the two sides can make peace because that ticket would likely be unbeatable... unless Huckabee can get Jesus to be his running mate.

Yeah, I agree, but Dowd attacking the Clintons for their lack of idealism is a bit rich coming from the columnist most responsible for purely superficial gibes at pols.

(xpost)

i will say that clinton is otm when she said she found her voice. not just the crying - although i did say upthread that that human hillary was immensely more appealing than her usual schtick - but her speaking and behaving in a more intimate manner altogether - that was surely the cause of her comeback.

there was a headline on huffpost a couple days ago that said something abt hillary wrestling control of her campaign from the advisers. if so well done.

but still i dont trust her. is having her back completely against the wall what it takes for her to be at all genuine. surely if she wins she'll go back to being completely calculating.

but of course it not just the endless scheming. i mean thats endemic in politics. its the scheming + consistent wrongness.

so while i do admire what shes done in the last few days. the fact that she was even in that situation to begin with just points back to her flaws.

Clinton-Obama ticket would likely be beatable. By John McCain, [secretly hypocritical] torture-saint "maverick."

"purely superficial gibes" are suited to purely superficial pols.

Dowd's finish, for jhoshea:

At her victory party, Hillary was like the heroine of a Lifetime movie, a woman in peril who manages to triumph. Saying that her heart was full, she sounded the feminist anthem: “I found my own voice.”

Dowd attacking the Clintons for their lack of idealism is a bit rich

maybe but it's accurate ... given the last few days of the "false hopes / it's a fairy tale / you're no MLK" message ...

another great thing abt hillary/obama would be that itd give us by far the best shot at: 16 years, no republican presidents.

not that i think obama is cooked. its a coin flip now. w/obama maybe still having somewhat of an edge. nh over the years has had a soft spot for the uncharismatic candidates that the rest of the country has no time for. mccain and tsongas come to mind. obv hillary is much stronger than either of those dudes. but still nh is more forgiving of her sort of foibles.

I think you overestimate the popularity of McCain amongst the Christianist Right, and underestimate the effect of turning out a broad coalition of new female, minority, and youth voters.

as much as I think being Caucasian male is an impregnable (ha ha) condition until history is made, I like Obama's chances against McCain slightly more than Clinton's.

So Romney, Edwards both cooked?

I wouldn't give Obama an edge. With a national primary on the 5th, most superdelegates already going for Clinton, and no fundraising advantage for either candidate, Hillary has at least a moderate advantage on name recognition alone. Even if she loses SC and NV.

i really dont get the mccain fear - hes on the mostest wrong side of the most important issue of the election, hes old dead-looking and weird, and the republican party is at a 30 year nadir.

And believe me, I have some idea of the Obama campaign's strategy. I have put in time at the NY office and attended their leadership training program. The idea was IA + NH = narrow win over Clinton on February 5th. Even with IA and NH they knew the national primary would be really rough.

no if she looses sc and nv obama is pretty clearly in the drivers seat.

That's what they'll so, but I don't think they'll believe it. They're tearing out their hair this morning trying to figure out what to do, I guarantee it.

yah sure but theyre a campaign - thats their job. obv they have to be completely on top of their game to make this work.

Mccain is on the mostest wrong side of the most important issue of the election

Haven't you heard? "The surge is working."

anyhow its compelling that we have races on both sides that look like they wont be decided til super tuesday.

especially for the tv people.

By the fall people will be saying, "The sure worked, so can we go home now?" Not, "The surge worked, now we don't have to go! I hope we get to stick around for another 100 years!"

morbs the polls have for a while consistently shown majorities or pluralities for these views: the war is the most important issue of the election, the surge is working, the war was a mistake, the troops should come home now.

so mccain is one for three on the most important issue of the election and 0 for 1 on the issue that the next president will actually have to take action on.

hes been saying shit like being in iraq for 100 years would be fine for ever and hes gonna get killt w/it in the ge if he makes it that far.

Another good thing to consider... if Obama is VP he is President of the Senate. Not bad.

He SHOULD be killed on the "100 years" thing. I have my doubts.

And.. here we go again! Dowd with the Lifetime movie crap. Chris Matthews was on MSNBC this morning saying Hillary wouldn't have even won her Senate seat in NY if it weren't for Bill messing around and people feeling sorry for her! Then he went back to drooling over Obama's beautiful speeches and how he was so tall and lanky and would just glide onstage. (Not kidding.) What an asshole.

We agree.

he should get a job more suited to his interests, like judging the Miss America pageant

Romney not cooked, Dr. M. But he has to break through soon.

In a workplace context, Obama may have reminded women of under-qualified hotshots who come along and get the big job with less experience because they're cooler and have more rapport with the boss and are, after all, men.

No shit, Sherlock.. :)

That's the thing, Daria. Obama avoids that problem when he stays ultra-sober and serious. But when he doesn't -- as I argue above (and Alfred disagrees with) -- he falls right into this trap of looking like the underqualified cool kid who is succeeding b/c he's ''one of the guys.'' But don't bet on Obama making these mistakes often (if it was a mistake; I see Alfred's point, even if I disagree).

Oh, I know. It's far from over. Probably the Obama-Edwards team up at the debate didn't help either one.. Anything can still happen but I think Obama's got more to worry about now, he's a momentum candidate more than a policy wonk. He'll probably win South Carolina.

its interesting how some discount charisma as unsubstantial and unjustly consequential. while having someone in charge thats sliding by on it alone is obv a dangerous situation - its not a coincidence that all great leaders have it in spades. theres more there than just the shine.

But that's just it, Daniel: Obama's remark (and tone) was too urbane for a fratboy.

It was his interaction with Edwards at HRC's expense and his football reference that really reminded me of a frat-boy. The ''likeable enough'' line did too, but to a lesser extent. What that line did, I think, is make Obama seem snide -- maybe petty -- which doesn't jibe with his image. I do not think he'll make that mistake again (also b/c I think he and HRC will both try to sound like insurgents -- not frontrunners -- for a while).

I really wish you ppl talked about policy instead of all this sports analysis, but I guess that horse left the barn around the final Reagan-Mondale debate...

Open primaries are a really vile thing.

morbs this is the primaries thread i dont want to keep having to tell you