Bernard Manning Has Died

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Tom Hibbert's Bernard Manning interview in Q to thread.

Your wish is my command... (Hopefully these will load ok)

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He really was a charmer, wasn't he?

Billy Dods, Wednesday, 20 June 2007 12:54 (sixteen years ago) link

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Billy Dods, Wednesday, 20 June 2007 12:55 (sixteen years ago) link

the writer there really comes across as a bit of a prick.

darraghmac, Wednesday, 20 June 2007 13:29 (sixteen years ago) link

We British used to have a saying: "I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death, your right to say it". Since the election of New Labour in 1997, our country has been hijacked by a wicked Left wing attitude which, like all Left wing attitudes, involves control. Bernard Manning told jokes which were caricatures of people's behaviour. We all know that people's behaviour is determined by their age, sex, gender, race, culture, political beliefs, religion, etc. It is all of these elements that make us what we are. As soon as you behave in a way that makes you stand out from the crowd, you will be noticed and some people will make comments about it. Bernard Manning insulted people with humour. If you were on the receiving end, I can understand why you would not like it, but words were as far as he went. He did not commit gun crime, knife crime, drug crime, plant bombs, or kidnap people and execute them. The Left has sympathy with all of these criminals, but not Bernard.

- Mr. J. Smith, Birmingham, England

Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Wednesday, 20 June 2007 13:35 (sixteen years ago) link

the writer there really comes across as being a bit of a prick.

darraghmac, Wednesday, 20 June 2007 13:38 (sixteen years ago) link

The Left has to do something about it, not Bernard.

Mark G, Wednesday, 20 June 2007 13:38 (sixteen years ago) link

hahaha.

The otherwise inept compere at a Stepney comedy club the other night suggested we honour his memory with a minute's racism.

Michael Philip Philip Philip philip Annoyman, Wednesday, 20 June 2007 13:49 (sixteen years ago) link

didn't he do a lot of sexist jokes as well?

blueski, Wednesday, 20 June 2007 13:54 (sixteen years ago) link

He told jokes about 'em all Steve, and what's more they all came in his club, and they loved it. Each and every single one of them.

Dom Passantino, Wednesday, 20 June 2007 13:57 (sixteen years ago) link

I also thought Dom was joking about the "RACIST IN PEACE" headline.

Michael Philip Philip Philip philip Annoyman, Wednesday, 20 June 2007 13:57 (sixteen years ago) link

We British used to have a saying: "I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death, your right to say it". Since the election of New Labour in 1997, our country has been hijacked by a wicked Left wing attitude which, like all Left wing attitudes, involves control. Bernard Manning told jokes which were caricatures of people's behaviour. We all know that people's behaviour is determined by their age, sex, gender, race, culture, political beliefs, religion, etc. It is all of these elements that make us what we are. As soon as you behave in a way that makes you stand out from the crowd, you will be noticed and some people will make comments about it. Bernard Manning insulted people with humour. If you were on the receiving end, I can understand why you would not like it, but words were as far as he went. He did not commit gun crime, knife crime, drug crime, plant bombs, or kidnap people and execute them. The Left has sympathy with all of these criminals, but not Bernard.
- Mr. J. Smith, Birmingham, England

Is the BBC news site always crawling with people like that, or do they only come out of the woodwork when there's a flagpole for them to rally around?

tissp, Wednesday, 20 June 2007 14:05 (sixteen years ago) link

Most of them are bored uni students taking the piss.

Dom Passantino, Wednesday, 20 June 2007 14:07 (sixteen years ago) link

If only this were true

Ned Trifle II, Wednesday, 20 June 2007 14:09 (sixteen years ago) link

See also: Teletext letters pages

Michael Philip Philip Philip philip Annoyman, Wednesday, 20 June 2007 14:09 (sixteen years ago) link

the one with all the kids calling themselves "Masked Purple Penguin" and stuff on the "teenage" bit on channel 4?

acrobat, Wednesday, 20 June 2007 14:11 (sixteen years ago) link

"We British used to have a saying: "I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death, your right to say it"."

Not true Mr Smith of Birmingham. Voltare said it and he was French.

- Lemongrass, London, England

Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Wednesday, 20 June 2007 14:12 (sixteen years ago) link

froggy onion breath surrender monkey cheese eating bastards.

darraghmac, Wednesday, 20 June 2007 14:15 (sixteen years ago) link

Nah, the "have your say" type stuff with people saying "let's have no more letters from the PC brigade about X" and going on about bringing back national service and Christmas being cancelled to avoid offending suicide bombers and stuff

Michael Philip Philip Philip philip Annoyman, Wednesday, 20 June 2007 14:17 (sixteen years ago) link

and don't forget the 'black' binbags.

Mark G, Wednesday, 20 June 2007 14:19 (sixteen years ago) link

Alexei Sayle: Bernard Manning and the tragedy of comedy

Sour. Self-pitying. Cowardly. These are the defining characteristics of the stand-up comedian, argues Alexei Sayle. How else can we explain the misanthropic tendencies of performers like Bernard Manning?

Published: 20 June 2007

On the day Bernard Manning's wife Vera - the woman he referred to as "the bedrock of my life" - died, Bernard hung his DJ in the back of the Roller (number plate, 1 LAF) and, as usual, drove off to do a gig. This is not to say that the man wasn't suffering in some way, but he simply would not have known what else to do with himself.

When he was rushed into hospital two weeks ago, he had to cancel an appearance at his Embassy Club - the first time in six decades as an entertainer that he'd done so. You could see this as professionalism, or perhaps more likely as the action of a desperate and lonely old man who could feel at least half alive only when he was performing in front of a room full of strangers.

I never met the man, nor wanted to, but have met and studied many like him, largely because his generation of old-time comedians present a frightening object lesson in the perils of what being a stand-up can do to you if you don't take care to ameliorate its more malevolent effects. Whenever I've spent time with those traditional gag merchants, the feeling I have come away with on each occasion is one of overwhelming sadness - sadness for all that talent squandered on such base material, and sadness for the audiences who allow themselves to be spoon-fed such foul stuff.

The impulse to become a comic is exactly the same, whether you are a modern kind of transvestite Geordie surrealist who has a 90-minute act solely about talking owls, or an anti-globalisation, counterculture ranter who will only perform in a non-hierarchical fashion whereby the audience is on the stage and he is below them on the ground, or Roy "Chubby" Brown. We stand-ups are people who share a lot more than we generally care to admit to.

First and foremost, we are not team players; with our lone-wolf-like nature, we do not want to share the glory with anybody else. The obverse of this is that we also have to bear all the rejection, humiliation and isolation alone. It is this aspect of the business that has formed the characters of men like Manning and all the other Jim Davidsons, Freddie Starrs etc. For them, the triumphs fade almost as soon as they happen - but the crowds who heckle and won't listen, the club chairmen who start the bingo in the middle of their act, the lousy digs and the long night drives; these are remembered forever and are what turn them into the sour, artistically cowardly, self-pitying and miserable individuals that they inevitably seem to become.

It is not the things that happen to you, though, but how you react to them that matters. And in my observation, more than anything else, what damages these older comedians is that they allow themselves to admit to no sort of internal psychological life, no sort of hurt beyond hatred of other comedians. In particular, they will never admit to ever having done or said anything wrong, ever, in their working lives. It is always somebody else's fault when their career takes a downturn. It is the fault of the pregnant showgirl, or the slimy, liberal (probably Jewish) documentary makers who secretly filmed them telling racist jokes to a howling audience of policemen, or the upcoming generation of alternative (probably Jewish) po-faced comedians who don't know what's funny.

To placate whatever frazzled part of their mind acts as a conscience, Manning and his kind always draw some arbitrary line that they swear they won't cross, like an alcoholic telling himself that his drinking is under control as long as he stays off the barley wine. I seem to remember Bernard stating that though he might use terms like "nigger" and "coon " in his act, he would never, ever tell a joke about "disabled kiddies". You could hear the self-regarding tremor in his voice as he said this, as if he was reluctantly admitting to being a humanitarian of similar stature to Nelson Mandela, Noam Chomsky or Aung San Suu Kyi. He always denied being a racist, claiming that he made fun of everybody, equally - " politicians, bald-headed people, people with glasses on, the lot. I have a go at everybody and that's what makes everybody roar with laughter." I notice he left "nigger, coon and Paki" out of his list, though. Those were the words people objected to him using; I can't remember much of a furore about his specky four-eyed barbs.

These comedians, as well as denying themselves any kind of emotional outlet, are not keen to cultivate any sort of intellectual capacity. They will profess to have no time for such poncey pastimes as literature, art, theatre or the cinema. This means that all they are left with is a vague interest in women, money and sport and an overwhelming and obsessive interest in what they regard as "being funny".

To be among a crowd of these guys, or to be trapped alone with one of them, is a terrifying experience. They are all completely incapable of sustaining a normal, warm, personal conversation, with its to and fro; instead they resort to telling a string of old jokes, or insults and put-downs disguised as gags, in the space where an exchange of ideas or confidences or information might usually fit. This means, of course, that the comedians control the encounter, but at the price of the person on the receiving end of the gags not wishing to repeat the experience, ever. Sometimes you glimpse the bright working-class kid they must once have been - even Bernard, the ambitious greengrocer's son, keen to get on, eager to please.

In the end, though, Manning was simply being himself, an unhappy man who was not capable of change. His proud boast was that his motto was "To thine own self be true", though he could not resist adding: "That's from fuckin' Shakespeare, that is."

Those who should really be ashamed of themselves are the revisionists who sought to rehabilitate him: those such as the full-time contrarians at Living Marxism who gave his biography a good review, or those critics and comedy completists looking for the latest reputation to restore, who asserted that his mixture of bile and old pub-gags was him being "ironic " or "postmodern", or that he was an expression of some kind of undiluted and authentic working-class culture. Bernard Manning wasn't any of these things; he was just a halfway decent comic with a horrible act.

The holy grail of comedy: making people laugh

It's an odd thing, stand-up comedy. You go to some bar or theatre or club you would never normally visit, sit with strangers, and watch another stranger try to make you laugh. One minute you're going about your business. The next you're falling about.

Being a punter at a stand-up gig is nothing like going to a rock concert, or a violin recital, or a play, all of which can drag any and every type of emotion from us. Comedy is alone in focusing on one physiological reaction: laughs.

But how do stand-ups make us laugh? Dylan Moran, a comedian who spends more time thinking about these matters than most, has a theory. "If someone has just come back from holiday," he explains, "and they show you some photographs, and say it was all wonderful, and that the sun wasn't too hot, you're bored out of your mind. Nothing could be more boring than other people's happiness. But if they tell you the hotel was crap, how the toilets leaked, how they all got sick - it's a wonderful story. Something bad will have happened to you in the past, but it didn't happen this time. It happened to them. And you can enjoy it."

Or, as Mel Brooks once said: "Tragedy is when I cut my finger. Comedy is when you walk into an open sewer and die." For whatever reason - our maliciousness; our latent survival instincts; our terror of death - the misfortune of others is fecund comedic material. For this reason, most stand-up is licensed schadenfreude.

The young Welsh comic Steve Williams, though, thinks malice is a small part of the equation. His most successful material comes from what the audience shares, rather than what they don't. "Sex and relationships are the big ones," he says. "Those are the universal life experiences, and the biggest areas for any comic. There is always something funny about things that everyone does, whether it's buying a house, or going to Ikea, or cleaning the car."

"The job of the observational comic is to look at all those things that normal people gloss over, and to find the odd thing - the anomaly - in it. When you do that, you make people look again at their ordinary lives, and that's funny."

Not all comics are "observational", although all observe. There are political comedians and surrealists and one-line merchants. There are slapstick artists and anti-comedians. There is Jimmy Carr. But all turn the ordinary stuff of life into something altogether different, irregular, and, they hope, funny.

For Bill Hicks, however, comedy was not a perversion or a deconstruction of life. It was the thing itself. "If comedy is an escape from anything," he said, "it is an escape from illusions. The comic, by using the voice of reason, reminds us of our true reality, and in that moment of recognition, we laugh, and the 'reality of the daily grind' is shown for what it really is - unreal... a joke.... The audience is relieved to know they're not alone in thinking, 'this bullshit we see and hear all day makes no sense. Surely I'm not the only one who thinks so. And surely there must be an answer.' Good comedy helps people know they're not alone. Great comedy provides an answer."

Hicks was messianic about comedy, and pushed at the limits of his audiences' taste. A comic saying tasteless, unsayable things in front of an audience is part of his or her remit. They say what we can't. It was the basis of Bernard Manning's extraordinary career.

Analysing why one thing gets a laugh, and another doesn't, can be a mug's game. Sometimes, something's just funny. A laugh is the solution to an equation that stretches and baffles even the most accomplished comedians. The only way to know how a joke will go down is to stand up, tell it, and listen.

Dom Passantino, Wednesday, 20 June 2007 14:20 (sixteen years ago) link

alexei sayle- horribly unfunny, now pompous to boot.

darraghmac, Wednesday, 20 June 2007 14:25 (sixteen years ago) link

^^^ this.

Dom Passantino, Wednesday, 20 June 2007 14:29 (sixteen years ago) link

Perhaps Sayle should return to his hilarious "fat ugly lesbian feminist" characters "Menstrual Cycles", some nice progressive 21st century humour there.

Dom Passantino, Wednesday, 20 June 2007 14:30 (sixteen years ago) link

liked the vitriol at the start, very much tailed off after dylan moran was mentioned.

acrobat, Wednesday, 20 June 2007 14:30 (sixteen years ago) link

it's ok. middle class comedians are running racist comedy now.

acrobat, Wednesday, 20 June 2007 14:33 (sixteen years ago) link

if bernard wants to make racist jokes then let him i say.

as long as i have the right to say theyre stupid and ignorant and bigoted etc.

someone told me they dont see what the big problem is as he was just saying what a lot of people felt and said privately but im not sure if that makes it okay. although i suppose you could look at him as just being honest. which is honorable in a way, no?

titchyschneiderMk2, Wednesday, 20 June 2007 14:34 (sixteen years ago) link

I think that's a good article by Sayle - much better than Marcus Brigstocke's pointless and shallow preaching to the converted on commentisfree which could've and should've been a lot better by exploring things in the same way Sayle attempts above.

The last paragraph is v interesting as it might apply to someone who laughed at any of Manning's gags that constituted racism, xenophobia or some other form of bigotry. It could excuse them for that with no stmulus to pursue the reason behind that. That's why I like to analyse why things are/might be funny personally.

blueski, Wednesday, 20 June 2007 14:35 (sixteen years ago) link

I do think there's a fair point to be made that what Hicks and Bruce are praised for is what Manning actually did.

Dom Passantino, Wednesday, 20 June 2007 14:37 (sixteen years ago) link

i suppose you could look at him as just being honest. which is honorable in a way, no?

big brother eviction interview fallacy number one.

acrobat, Wednesday, 20 June 2007 14:37 (sixteen years ago) link

I do think there's a fair point to be made that what Hicks and Bruce are praised for is what Manning actually did.

they weren't racist and died quicker

acrobat, Wednesday, 20 June 2007 14:38 (sixteen years ago) link

Lenny Bruce called people "nigger" as part of his act.

Dom Passantino, Wednesday, 20 June 2007 14:39 (sixteen years ago) link

were they black?

acrobat, Wednesday, 20 June 2007 14:40 (sixteen years ago) link

Yes.

Dom Passantino, Wednesday, 20 June 2007 14:40 (sixteen years ago) link

Are there any niggers here tonight? Could you turn on the house lights, please, and could the waiters and waitresses just stop serving, just for a second? And turn off this spot. Now what did he say? "Are there any niggers here tonight?" I know there's one nigger, because I see him back there working. Let's see, there's two niggers. And between those two niggers sits a kike. And there's another kike— that's two kikes and three niggers. And there's a spic. Right? Hmm? There's another spic. Ooh, there's a wop; there's a polack; and, oh, a couple of greaseballs. And there's three lace-curtain Irish micks. And there's one, hip, thick, hunky, funky, boogie. Boogie boogie. Mm-hmm. I got three kikes here, do I hear five kikes? I got five kikes, do I hear six spics, I got six spics, do I hear seven niggers? I got seven niggers. Sold American. I pass with seven niggers, six spics, five micks, four kikes, three guineas, and one wop. Well, I was just trying to make a point, and that is that it's the suppression of the word that gives it the power, the violence, the viciousness. Dig: if President Kennedy would just go on television, and say, "I would like to introduce you to all the niggers in my cabinet," and if he'd just say "nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger" to every nigger he saw, "boogie boogie boogie boogie boogie," "nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger" 'til nigger didn't mean anything anymore, then you could never make some six-year-old black kid cry because somebody called him a nigger at school.

Dom Passantino, Wednesday, 20 June 2007 14:41 (sixteen years ago) link

Lenny Bruce was killed by political correctness gone mad.

Dom Passantino, Wednesday, 20 June 2007 14:42 (sixteen years ago) link

what about the idea that manning DID just take shots at everyone though? he was 'fair' on that level at least, right?

ive never been totally convinced by people that say that - that by disrespecting everyone equally youre actually taking the sting out of words, not really. youre usually just thriving off the buzz of using the words you know youre not meant to (and usually for some good reasons).

titchyschneiderMk2, Wednesday, 20 June 2007 14:46 (sixteen years ago) link

personally what annoyed me more about manning was that he didnt admit to being a racist. if youre gonna say all he did, fine, but at least own up to it. dont just try and wrap it up in some sort of comedy-gag equality 'oh i have a go at EVERYONE equaly' and all that...

titchyschneiderMk2, Wednesday, 20 June 2007 14:48 (sixteen years ago) link

he didnt pick on everyone equally at all. he never made jokes about raping babies

696, Wednesday, 20 June 2007 14:49 (sixteen years ago) link

come on titchy he didn't make gags about "disabled kiddies" or periods.

acrobat, Wednesday, 20 June 2007 14:49 (sixteen years ago) link

well, i dont know. i never saw his comedy cos i feared it would make me feel a bit ill.

"he didnt pick on everyone equally at all. he never made jokes about raping babies"

are you being sarcastic?

titchyschneiderMk2, Wednesday, 20 June 2007 14:52 (sixteen years ago) link

serious question (allowing that manning was horrible etc)- is it allowable to make fun of any group in comedy, or is it ok just so long as you avoid the nasty words?

darraghmac, Wednesday, 20 June 2007 14:52 (sixteen years ago) link

manning said that a comedian should never joke about a ladies bodily functions.

acrobat, Wednesday, 20 June 2007 14:53 (sixteen years ago) link

its a little less abrasive if you avoid the obvious words.

acrobat, didnt he make sexist jokes about women though?

titchyschneiderMk2, Wednesday, 20 June 2007 14:53 (sixteen years ago) link

yes but i saw this interview where he was getting all het up about i dunno jo brand or someone making jokes about tampons. fookin disgrace etc etc.

acrobat, Wednesday, 20 June 2007 14:55 (sixteen years ago) link

Generally agree with Alexei's article, except for:

those such as the full-time contrarians at Living Marxism who gave his biography a good review

What, it couldn't have been a good biography?

Mark G, Wednesday, 20 June 2007 14:57 (sixteen years ago) link

The "Have Your Say" comments are mostly written by bored BBC employees.

Marcello Carlin, Wednesday, 20 June 2007 15:01 (sixteen years ago) link

You're thinking of the Radio Times letters page.

Dom Passantino, Wednesday, 20 June 2007 15:03 (sixteen years ago) link

you're thinking about jo brand's material.

darraghmac, Wednesday, 20 June 2007 15:13 (sixteen years ago) link

"Periods, they're not as good as cakes, am I right girls?"

Dom Passantino, Wednesday, 20 June 2007 15:19 (sixteen years ago) link

No, I'm confusing Jo Brand with a Watercooler thread, sorry.

Dom Passantino, Wednesday, 20 June 2007 15:20 (sixteen years ago) link


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