The New Cuba Thread

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/5232628.stm

Part of Newsnight's best public services in the world series.

How could you possibly determine this? It may be true, but how could a foreign tourist (assuming that is an accurate description of you) make this determination?

I find talking to people is very helpful in this respect.

(Yes, I'm aware they could just have been parroting a party line, but their assertions are at least as valid as those of people now living in another country who would freely admit bias)

Milo makes a very good point upthread though, that his popularity was/is in no small part due to the leaders before caring a whole lot less about Cubans than US gangster $$$.

Cuba has a lot of problems, but it may well be better off than it would be if run by Cuban Americans. Even if this is not the case, many Cubans may have a sense of Better-The-Devil-You-Know and thus not be too into regime change. At the same time, it is hard to see how the regime can long outlast its charismatic founder.

'As I discovered when I spoke to trainee doctors, dental patients and expectant mothers, anyone who would let loose a free-market hurricane and sweep away Castro's public services would be in deep, deep trouble.'

'Moreover, it is guarded by a breed of young apparatchiks, devoted to the party line and reportedly set on the approach known locally as "safeguarding the achievements of the revolution".'

But less so than rumours of George W. Bush's death

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41951000/jpg/_41951774_26july_ap.jpg

All these people were forced to attend and look happy, obviously.

You want Dick Cheney as president?

All these people were forced to attend and look happy, obviously

Well, if you don't attend rallies, the neighborhood apparatchik makes a note of it. A cousin's son was jailed for four months after he failed to attend a handful of rallies.

Which is not to say that Cubans don't love their Leige Maximo.

Castro met the MANIC STREET PREACHERS.

(I don't know what that means exactly...)

I find talking to people is very helpful in this respect.

This seems really naive. A tourist in any land gets a very half-baked view of the society. Cuba even more so, because the political climate is so charged. Do you honestly think that the conversation a Cuban would have with a western tourist would be similar to conversations with friends and family?

Like I said upthread, I'm not disputing the accuracy of the observation, but rather the validity of making the observation based on a trip to Cuba.

As I said before, I completely acknowledge they could all (this was right across the country in various cities) have just been telling me what they thought I wanted to hear, or what they had been told to say. It could be all made up. But I'm at least satisfied actual Cubans living in Cuba have told me.

It's also quite possible that many Cubans are of two minds on Castro. In China, my impression is that many people have a love/hate view of Mao. Hate him for obvious reasons, but love him because he is the founder of your country and a mythical figure you have always known.

less impressively, he also met Kate Cockfarmer Moss and Naomi Interesting Campbell. Apparently Moss felt that she too was in her own field as much of a revolutionary as he was.

so Sean Penn goes to Venezuela and Cuba with Douglas Brinkley and Christopher Hitchens (lol), interviews Chavez and Raul Castro, seems to get a semiscoop out of Raul.

"We've had permanent contact with the US military, by secret agreement, since 1994," Castro tells me. "It is based on the premise that we would discuss issues only related to Guantanamo. On February 17, 1993, following a request by the United States to discuss issues related to buoy locators for ship navigations into the bay, was the first contact in the history of the revolution. Between March 4 and July 1, the Rafters Crisis took place. A military-to-military hot line was established, and on May 9, 1995, we agreed to monthly meetings with primaries from both governments. To this day, there have been 157 meetings, and there is a taped record of every meeting. The meetings are conducted on the third Friday of every month. We alternate locations between the American base at Guantanamo and in Cuban-held territory. We conduct joint emergency-response exercises. . .

Now at the Friday meetings there is always a representative of the US State Department." No name given. He continues, "The State Department tends to be less reasonable than the Pentagon. But no one raises their voice because. . . I don't take part. Because I talk loud. It is the only place in the world where these two militaries meet in peace."

"What about Guantanamo?" I ask. "I'll tell you the truth," Castro says. "The base is our hostage. As a president, I say the US should go. As a military man, I say let them stay." . .

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sean-penn/mountain-of-snakes-part-i_b_147239.html

(This is Part II, Penn just does a whole lotta setup in I)

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2009/04/president-ob-14.html

O_O

About time.

I hope this is true...

the question is when do I get to travel to cuba unencumbered...?

Cuban radio has been nervously a-twitter here for the last two weeks. The Old Guard has made its peace with the lifting of the restrictions – so long as the Obama administration keeps the embargo.

This idea was floated to the public at least a week ago to gauge reaction. I'm glad he's taking these steps.

I doubt the embargo will be lifted so long as Cuba is led by someone named Castro, even though it has done squat to weaken the Castro regime. Lifting it any sooner would be like admitting error and weakness and therefore cannot be done. Which, when you get down to it, is exactly how weak and error prone people tend to think.

this story is getting much traction:

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20091212/D9CHT6T80.html

A friend wants to go on holiday to Cuba with me. My friend is a quasi-Marxist, and I wouldn't enjoy the arguments. I feel uncomfortable about going there as a tourist but I also feel hypocritical about feeling uncomfortable. There are lots of other countries whose governments I disapprove of but which I would visit as a tourist, bolstering state coffers. Why do I feel particularly queasy about Cuba?

don't strike any arms deals or appear in the state-run media denouncing capitalism. and depending on what kind of quasi-marxist dude is, i'm not sure he'll have much to harp on you about. it ain't exactly a marveling at the glories of socialism kind of place. just go. chill out, man.

i'm excited to take my girl there for the first time since the cuban government made it 100x easier for chinese citizens to go there.

Yeah, maybe this is the attitude. When are you going? Just to Havana, or beyond?

A visit to Cuba is just what a quasi-Marxist needs to recant his views.

I think there she may go through some entrenchment first, though, before the recanting.

The recent emigré who lives above me, in between bouts of moving to the balcony to scream at her boyfriend over the phone ("That's the last time you squeeze between my legs!" she yells in Spanish), talks to someone or other in Cuba about how much toilet paper she needs to pack and send.

Ahahahha, fabulous detail on both points.

my uncle is a marxist, no quasi about it and lived in Cuba for a few years in the 70s and fucking despised it.

Dr. Morbius went 5-10 years ago iirc.

I am aiming to go, you first jabalajamblunana... I want a full reconaissance. :-P

ho ho, I am going to Cuba over Easter. I will report back.

SS - only fair after your SF orientation... but we must defer to the Dirty Vicar since if I go, it won't be till October.

It would be great if when I come back from Cuba I say "guys, the place seems to be a paradise" and everyone goes "oh well, that's settled then".

Just on the general thing of visiting/not visiting countries because you don't approve of their governments... this is always very subjective. I have been avoiding visiting Italy because of the total cockfarmers they have in government. Maybe it is better to avoid democratic countries with repulsive governments - Italians voted for Berlusconi and Bossi, but no one voted for Los Bros Castro.

reasons to visit/not visit a country-

weather
natural beauty
history/architecture
expense
safety/security
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i agree with the people at the top about stuff

Yeah. I think I'm letting my disappointment at my friend's views get in the way of an interesting trip.

But, if I'm honest, I'm still more attracted by seeing as much of the US as possible than I am by flitting off to Cuba.

ho ho, I am going to Cuba over Easter. I will report back.

― The New Dirty Vicar, Monday, February 8, 2010 11:00 AM (4 months ago)

http://miamiherald.typepad.com/cuban_colada/2010/08/fidel-admits-responsibility-for-persecution-of-gays-in-1960s-calls-it-a-great-injustice.html#ixzz0yDqhDZH4

wau Fidel

too late, fuckwad

Castro said that the revolutionary government's actions represented "a great injustice – a great injustice! – whoever committed it. If we committed it, we committed it. I am trying to limit my responsibility in all that because, of course, personally I don't have that type of prejudice."

And he's still equivocating. Again, screw him.

"I don't have anything personal against gays, but they were counterrevolutionaries, so I had no choice to send them to the camps."

well yes, that is equivocation

Was the Communist Party to blame, the interviewer asks.
"No," Castro responds. "If anyone is responsible, I am. True, at that time I couldn't concern myself with the subject. I was deeply and mainly involved in the October Crisis, the war, the political issues. [...]
"But in the end, if responsibility must be assumed, I assume mine. I'm not going to blame others," Castro says.

this, otoh is not

well okay it kind of is, but it also isn't

From the summary on Amazon: "In its wake, the United States appeared inept, reckless, and corrupt."

The tact involved in that choice of verb stands out a mile.

Tariq Ali:

Of course there is one thing Obama could do without fear or favor. Lift the embargo on Cuba and recognize the country. It is in the interests of the US itself to do so, but will he? Will the Clintons who are dreaming of a return to the White House let him? Nixon in Beijing. Obama in Havana. Might make a good opera and help posterity forget the drones and assassinations. Just a thought.

http://www.counterpunch.org/2012/11/07/the-triumph-of-conservatism/

my Cuban relatives already think he's a Commie, so why not? Besides, they're dying.

so the NYT has run 3 pro-embargo-ending editorials the last 3 Sundays. And nothing's going to happen til Fidel kicks, is it?

1994 refugees today (photos)

http://www.theatlantic.com/infocus/2014/11/20-years-after-the-1994-cuban-raft-exodus/100852/

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2014/12/17/371398638/cuba-frees-american-contractor-alan-gross?utm_medium=RSS&utm_campaign=news

I know nothing of Cuba besides the Bay of Pigs/Missile Crisis. What's some good reading on Cuban history and the Cuban exile community in America.

Second sentence should end with a "?".

My mom just got back from a week in Cuba yesterday, and was telling me all about the Gross/Cuban 5 stuff. I'd like to credit her personally with this dramatic turn of events.

Didion's Miami is a good and undated overview. So is Marvin Dunn's history of black South Florida. One of the heartbreaking ironies of history is how white Cubans snatched the middle class jobs from blacks just as the Civil Rights Act passed.

from Guardian story:

But the ongoing imprisonment of Alan Gross was the very least of the many domestic political impediments in the way of any wider deal over trade, travel and diplomatic restrictions that have kept relations between the two countries in a Cold War deep freeze for decades.

It is is telling that the carefully orchestrated exchange of prisoners – something that must have taken months to negotiate – took place hours after US senators left Washington to go home for Christmas. It is also unthinkable that the Democratic White House would have risked such a move before November’s midterm elections, when hawks in both parties were already criticising him for similar concessions in Iran.

But the decision to attempt a complete Cuban “re-set” - to use the administration’s favoured phrase – is very much in keeping with Obama’s post-election radicalism.

It is a gamble that could backfire if relaxing the embargo does not create the desired internal pressure for reform inside Cuba, but Obama is not the only one who suspects that the existing, and very tired, US posture toward its near neighbour has long since proved past its sell-by date.

Obama’s post-election radicalism

man that word is just completely trashed in the UK eh

For American travelers to Cuba, this is an important detail buried in the Obama announcement: $100 worth of cigars and rum will be allowed.

well the US Interests Section in Havana is now the embassy.

many Irish-Americans who conspired to arm the IRA during the Troubles wound up in prison

This is news to me and, I suspect, everybody else in the UK.

eh, while US citizens, including prominent politicians, donated huge sums of money to charity-fronts to finance the provos the US gov and law enforcement agencies didn't turn a blind-eye to provo activities in the US.

i mean did you never watch the devil's own?

Never seen it, should I have? What activities?

Anyway, major league thread derailment or what? Apologies!

the devil's own (1997) is a terrible film were brad pitt plays a ra man and ends up getting shot by new york cop harrison ford as he tries to take SAM missiles in a boat from new york to ireland. don't watch it it's awful.

these sorts of activities: http://www.nytimes.com/1983/05/14/nyregion/four-found-guilty-of-plotting-to-smuggle-arms-for-the-ira.html

That's a famous case, famous because of its rarity, and of the four only one was an actually Irish-American. So, yes, I would still be surprised to find out that 'many Irish-Americans' were imprisoned by American law enforcement agencies during the Troubles.

and commercial flights from US begin

http://www.cnn.com/2016/08/30/politics/cuba-flights-commercial-security/index.html

Our Morbs in Miami

i have been to Santa Clara (and Che's tomb), but not Fort Lauderdale.

I wanna do a tour with American Ned Sublette, who has written a book about Cuban music, and been there a bunch

back to the '60s (or 2004). These 'attacks' sound like some spytech lit gimmickry.

The United States is warning Americans against visiting Cuba and ordering more than half of U.S. personnel to leave the island, senior officials said Friday, in a dramatic response to what they described as “specific attacks” on diplomats.

The decision deals a blow to already delicate ties between the U.S. and Cuba, longtime enemies who only recently began putting their hostility behind them. The embassy in Havana will lose roughly 60 percent of its U.S. staff, and will stop processing visas in Cuba indefinitely, the American officials said.

In a new travel warning to be issued Friday, the U.S. will say some of the attacks have occurred in Cuban hotels, and that while American tourists aren’t known to have been hurt, they could be exposed if they travel to Cuba. Tourism is a critical component of Cuba’s economy that has grown in recent years as the U.S. relaxed restrictions....

To investigators’ dismay, the symptoms in the attacks vary widely from person to person. In addition to hearing loss and concussions, some experienced nausea, headaches and ear-ringing, and the AP has reported some now suffer from problems with concentration and common word recall.

Though officials initially suspected some futuristic “sonic attack,” the picture has grown muddier. The FBI and other agencies that searched homes and hotels where incidents occurred found no devices. And clues about the circumstances of the incidents seem to make any explanation scientifically implausible.

https://apnews.com/3602399b00044443883aa2bdef0f1a84

"The Cuban national assembly meets this Wednesday to elect the next president, and Raúl Castro is widely expected to be replaced by the current vice-president Miguel Díaz-Canel."

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/18/raul-castro-cuba-step-down-leader-miguel-diaz-canel

Also, Canada just pulled its people for familiar weird health reasons.

With reference to the previous "sonic attacks" (quotes for my personal scepticism)... some scientific research with a sense of humour: https://spectrum.ieee.org/semiconductors/devices/finally-a-likely-explanation-for-the-sonic-weapon-used-at-the-us-embassy-in-cuba

have there been any other strange historical examples of sonic interference injuring or damaging dozens of people?

I know several high schoolers in the eighties who attended a Bon Jovi concert.

I've been to a few Sunn O))) gigs that could easily qualify as well.

"The Cuban national assembly meets this Wednesday to elect the next president, and Raúl Castro is widely expected to be replaced by the current vice-president Miguel Díaz-Canel."

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/18/raul-castro-cuba-step-down-leader-miguel-diaz-canel

― brain (krakow), Wednesday, April 18, 2018 3:32 AM

"Finding the path to modernizing Cuba's economy will now fall squarely on the shoulders of Miguel Diaz-Canel, Castro's successor as president who is expected to take over as head of the communist party."

https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/15/americas/cuba-raul-castro-communist-leader-intl-latam/index.html

Fidel was right though x pic.twitter.com/k5PPWnLycv

— marcus 🇧🇧 (@marcusjdl) May 15, 2022

A thread on the Families Code and referendum in Cuba. This is a comprehensive piece of legislation, widely described as being one of the most progressive in the world.

— 🇯🇲 Co-operative Textile Mill ☭ (@SiggonKristov) September 26, 2022

In Cuba during hurricanes, neighborhood committees go door-to-door and make sure that everyone is safely evacuated with their belongings.

In St. Pete, the police drive around warning poor people on loud speakers that there will be no help for them. #HurricanIan https://t.co/jlL0hMh1qu

— Karla Correa (@comradekarla) September 28, 2022

This absolute queen gets freed in a month pic.twitter.com/FP6Y0Z9USS

— cabral (@comradeaux) December 5, 2022