High hopes for this turning out a smart and civil discussion like the horror films why not thread, deep fears that it will descend into madness fyi
― sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:32 (1 year ago) Permalink
i think it's bc games are competitive experiences and competition brings out the worst in human beings
― Mordy, Wednesday, April 4, 2012 4:30 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark
― Mordy, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:34 (1 year ago) Permalink
idk i obv have some pretty strong concerns abt that wrt online FPS screaming idiots and the like, but i dont think that has as much to do with the games themselves (i mean obv its part of the experience but it isnt internalized content per se)
― sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:36 (1 year ago) Permalink
some of it is cultural differences/lack of knowledge between Asia and the West.
― bnw, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:39 (1 year ago) Permalink
do you guys mean disgusting behavior in players or the games?
― Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:40 (1 year ago) Permalink
i mean ive heard some commentary on this but a lot of the big arguments are a little facile and outsidery to me, like the idea that games are a juvenilized form of entertainment and thus more prone to juvenile thinking
xxpost yeah bnw that is def one of the things that i think factors in
― sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:41 (1 year ago) Permalink
the sexism is definitely audience targeting. and it is depressingly dead on.
― bnw, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:41 (1 year ago) Permalink
i am talking abt the games, not the players, but obv there is going to be some reflection there wrt consumers influencing content etc
― sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:42 (1 year ago) Permalink
it's not just that consumers influence the content, it's also that game creators are gamers themselves and exist in the gaming community. they play on the same multiplayer servers and their customers, they're influenced by the same games...
― Mordy, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:43 (1 year ago) Permalink
-demographics.-the fact that computer games, for fairly obvious reasons, attract less sophisticated writers than other forms of media.
― zverotic discourse (jim in glasgow), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:43 (1 year ago) Permalink
was the new deus ex french? or french canadian? because thats def one of the weirdest examples of this - fairly thoughtful intellectual game and then whoa whats up with this homeless lady
― sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:44 (1 year ago) Permalink
to be perjorative a bit, nerds' poor socialization extends to society broadly, not just socializing. and they get reeeaaally defensive when called on their shit.
combined with a post-rockstar "it's supposed to be funny!" attitude w/r/t this kind of shit and it's a toxic brew
― goole, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:45 (1 year ago) Permalink
A big hook for many games is "by gamers, for gamers"; this means almost by design that a good chunk of regressive content is going to be present in the games since they are operating in this feedback loop where the social environment these games are created in is normalized to be incredibly shitty in a lot of ways.
For all of the equality for things like, say, making your character be male or female is a cosmetic change that doesn't affect your stats, you have things like all of the female iterations of the WoW races being as close to "busty cutie-pie" as the baseline skin will allow them to be (the undead and dwarf races are particularly comical re: this, but even the frickin' minotaur race has "sexy" female forms with cow heads).
xposts basically covered all of this but I am inflicting the concept of sexy cows on y'all anyway
― God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:46 (1 year ago) Permalink
some of it is sort of legacy racism from the earlier forms of media that fed VGs? D&D, action movies, etc
xp oh god WoW haha
― goole, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:47 (1 year ago) Permalink
how do you guys rank sexism/racism by systems? nintendo (the most juvenile) should come out looking better I'd think.
― Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:48 (1 year ago) Permalink
also, game content really not as important as ludic components (the best story can just barely redeem a game with terrible gameplay sometimes, while tons of beloved games have amazing gameplay and no story to speak of, or a really shitty story), so it's less important to designers to get stuff right with the content - which is where the racist/sexist stuff primarily exists
― Mordy, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:49 (1 year ago) Permalink
I mean... come on
― God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:49 (1 year ago) Permalink
actually feel like WoW held back a lot compared to some other games.
― bnw, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:50 (1 year ago) Permalink
Skyrim has the same sort of issues. Like ... why does my lizard lady have tits.
― polyphonic, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:51 (1 year ago) Permalink
nintendo (the most juvenile) should come out looking better I'd think.
have you ever played a Mario game??? also Punchout lololol.
― zappi, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:52 (1 year ago) Permalink
theyre not?
― Lamp, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:53 (1 year ago) Permalink
mario racist against turtles?
― Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:53 (1 year ago) Permalink
well sure, WoW isn't like Duke Nukem, but the point is more that the whole "moving comic book" medium that their art direction is based upon is super normalized in how the genders should be represented, to the point where even for races where it doesn't make sense for the males to be burly he-men and the women to be curvy sexpots, they still are
also, there's the female night elf dance (which is based on the famous Alizee clips that were zooming around the Internet in the early 00s):
― God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:56 (1 year ago) Permalink
copying this over from the other thread because i thinks it a very interesting and good point to think abt
i wonder if part of it is because games are often a solo experience (though not always of course) whereas movies, at some point in their release cycle at least, are experienced collectively? in other words, because the casual racism is easier for people to swallow by themselves as opposed to in a group?― 1986 tallest hair contest (Z S), Wednesday, April 4, 2012 8:29 PM (25 minutes ago)
― 1986 tallest hair contest (Z S), Wednesday, April 4, 2012 8:29 PM (25 minutes ago)
― sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:56 (1 year ago) Permalink
okay lol @ Mario being so mainstreamed that all of the "MAMA MIA" and "IT'SA ME, MARIO!" interjections don't even register as caricature anymore
― God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:57 (1 year ago) Permalink
i disagree w/ ZS's assertion esp bc i think the most racist/sexist behavior re video games happens in their most collective experience (multiplayer)
― Mordy, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:57 (1 year ago) Permalink
Yeah I think this is pretty easily chalked up to creators pandering to (and being born of) the overwhelmingly 15-35 male demographics of AAA game buyers. The women and men who like and play AAA games but don't like sexualized representations of women in these games (and also comic books) make their voices heard but the majority of the audience would be bummed if you took away their lizardwoman tits.
― raw feel vegan (silby), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:57 (1 year ago) Permalink
duh DJP you cant be racist against italians anymore, the godfather fixed that forever
― sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:58 (1 year ago) Permalink
it's well documented that gaming community demographics are a) incredibly skewed towards white males and b) fairly skewed towards people with poor social skills, which seems like a believable cause of misogyny and just general misanthropy all around
― ciderpress, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:59 (1 year ago) Permalink
did Mario ever say those lines or are we forcing racism on the poor guy? are we blaming his video game char for his cartoon version? important issues in my work day
― bnw, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:00 (1 year ago) Permalink
"it's a-me, Mario!" the sound of booting up Super Mario 64 iirc.
― raw feel vegan (silby), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:01 (1 year ago) Permalink
haha
― God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:02 (1 year ago) Permalink
lol gg then
― bnw, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:02 (1 year ago) Permalink
fyi listening to that may drive you crazy
― God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:03 (1 year ago) Permalink
the Mario Kart one is also insane
― God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:05 (1 year ago) Permalink
"So long, gay Bowser!"
― beanz meanz lulz (snoball), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:05 (1 year ago) Permalink
Alot of this sounds like hes sleeping with someone. *barfs*PeachyzeldagirlXD 3 weeks ago
― og (admrl), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:06 (1 year ago) Permalink
Do u say "ravioli!" when u fuckin?
― og (admrl), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:07 (1 year ago) Permalink
did they really get roberto benigni to do the voices?
― Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:07 (1 year ago) Permalink
Everybody knows that Mario's wet dreams involve pasta and Bowser.
― beanz meanz lulz (snoball), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:08 (1 year ago) Permalink
I worked at a gaming geek/comic book store for a couple years and this kind of stuff is everywhere. the idea that females without massive bobs existed at some point is lost on these people
― Estimate the percent chance that a whale has ever been to the moon? (frogbs), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:11 (1 year ago) Permalink
haha awesome typo
"I like the writer but does the artist have to make every female character's hair so big?"
― God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:12 (1 year ago) Permalink
i'ma luigi. nambar wan.
― goole, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:14 (1 year ago) Permalink
oh man my old college roommate used to say "yeah, peach has got it" in a squeaky ass voice all the time. mad nostalgia.
― goole, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:15 (1 year ago) Permalink
― og (admrl), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:15 (1 year ago) Permalink
I never played the Horde side of WoW with any regularity so I didn't realize that the trolls were all Jamaican until way way late in the game when I started a troll character because I was bored. Reading the quest text for most of the starter area was PAINFUL.
― God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:16 (1 year ago) Permalink
there's a ton of gender normalization in movies too, yeah?
― dayo, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:16 (1 year ago) Permalink
im def not saying that movies are immune but i dont think you can make the argument that movies even approach the overt O_O aspects of video games wrt either of these
― sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:18 (1 year ago) Permalink
(I also used to play WoW with the sound off and either Vent or iTunes going, so I missed a good chunk of the voice acting)
― God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:19 (1 year ago) Permalink
oh yeah for sure, and movies as a genre are much more mature. but it seems to me that anytime you throw a lot of money at a project (either a blockbuster movie or a blockbuster game) you're gonna end up w/ some pretty unreasonable gender representations
― dayo, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:20 (1 year ago) Permalink
re: relative badness of video games to movies, for that to be true then the racism/sexism would have to be toned down in game-to-movie adaptations, and it seems like in most cases it just got worse.
― Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:21 (1 year ago) Permalink
also feel like games HAVE to make gamers empathize w/ the game in a way that movies do not - movies can take more risks that way
― dayo, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:21 (1 year ago) Permalink
Todd Solondz presents: Happiness, the Video Game
― dayo, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:22 (1 year ago) Permalink
I always thought Tomb Raider the movie was made just to quiet all the feminist groups that complained about the video game, saying things like "no REAL woman could possibly look like that", well, lo and behold
― Estimate the percent chance that a whale has ever been to the moon? (frogbs), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:24 (1 year ago) Permalink
also in movies you actually have real actresses whereas if you're making a game you can just crank up the boob slider
― ciderpress, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:24 (1 year ago) Permalink
Can you give an example of this? I think in many cases, it's more the medium of being presented something as a movie rather than a game making it easier to notice the source material's dodgier aspects.
― God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:24 (1 year ago) Permalink
i know i am probably missing some counterexamples here but it seems like the new fallout stuff has actually done a pretty good job of avoiding these pitfalls considering what a massive game francise its been
― sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:25 (1 year ago) Permalink
oh man I remember reading an interview with the creators of the first Tomb Raider game where the art director almost verbatim said "you're spending 20 hours staring at this character's bum so it might as well be a nice one"
― God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:26 (1 year ago) Permalink
there are a few real actresses I'd like to introduce you to
― Estimate the percent chance that a whale has ever been to the moon? (frogbs), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:26 (1 year ago) Permalink
casual sexism is pretty accepted in rap music, along with casual homophobia and racism in the form of anti-semitism
― congratulations (n/a), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:27 (1 year ago) Permalink
I remember an interview with the creators of Tomb Raider, a few months before it came out, where they were like "if you're gonna spend the whole game looking at a butt it may as well be a really nice ass, high five broooooooseph *jumping chestbump*"
― 1986 tallest hair contest (Z S), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:27 (1 year ago) Permalink
WTF??? Xpost
hahahaha
― God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:28 (1 year ago) Permalink
ha there is probably something to the idea that the minute graphics got past the 8-bit stage the next logical progression was for game designers to think "oh shit now we can model T&A far more accurately"
― sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:28 (1 year ago) Permalink
has anybody ever seen Z S and DJP in a room at the same time before
― dayo, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:28 (1 year ago) Permalink
boob slider:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_or_Alive_Xtreme_Beach_Volleyball
... why does my lizard lady have tits.
This thread is comedy username gold
― og (admrl), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:29 (1 year ago) Permalink
wd play all the games with massive shadebobs
http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=shadebobs&tbm=isch
― instant coffee happening between us (a passing spacecadet), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:29 (1 year ago) Permalink
Seriously didn't see that since I'm Zinging it and I'm slow. that interview was apparently very influential for us!
― 1986 tallest hair contest (Z S), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:29 (1 year ago) Permalink
The Dead or Alive series spent an inordinate amount of time working on a super accurate physics engine just so they could claim to be the fighting game with the most realistic breast bounces
lol this was xposted by dayo
― God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:30 (1 year ago) Permalink
there's something to the argument that the fleshing-out of things is responsible, and that more sophisticated graphics/sound enables greater racism/sexism, but the dodgier aspects of movies are made dodgier by the movie. it's not as if it somehow revealed ugliness lurking beneath, e.g. casting leguizamo as luigi in super mario movie.
― Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:31 (1 year ago) Permalink
They didn't really say broseph - it was a more innocent time.
― Andrew Farrell, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:31 (1 year ago) Permalink
there's some interview w/ the doa creator where he says he cares about the physics so much because he considers all the female characters his daughters or something
― puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:32 (1 year ago) Permalink
wait, why is Leguizamo worthy of mention but BOB HOSKINS isn't
― God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:33 (1 year ago) Permalink
hoskins transcends race and racism?i'm pretty sure battleship: the movie is going to contain all sorts of jingoism and boobplay that wasn't inherent in the game.
― Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:34 (1 year ago) Permalink
IGN: Is there by chance a trampoline game in DOAX2? We think that would be an excellent addition to the mini-games.
Itagaki: So we have to pick from a long list of minigame ideas and I'm pretty sure trampoline minigames were part of the initial list, but we didn't pick it. That's because of the kind of game that DOAX2 is; we have to be really careful not to make it seem vulgar. Certain activities show the women in a negative light.
So it's not so much about bouncing per say. The key to the game is love. When they love the character, how do they feel when they see the character do whatever she's doing? We don't want to make them feel bad.
(Laughter.)
― puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:35 (1 year ago) Permalink
GN: It seems like that game is ripe for a wet t-shirt contest.
Itagaki: Well, it becomes the issue of love again.
IGN: So that's too far?
Itagaki: You don't want your girlfriend being seen in a wet T-shirt contest, right?
IGN: No, not mine. But it's OK for me to see other people's girlfriends... (Laughter.)
― puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:36 (1 year ago) Permalink
btw here is the male figure you get if you set the "body type" dial all the way to its biggest setting on Star Wars: The Old Republic, and then there is the female option at the same chunkiest settinghttp://img27.imageshack.us/img27/6995/000grzxh.jpg
don't know if you guys can see the slight disparity, i mean it is pretty subtle
― instant coffee happening between us (a passing spacecadet), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:38 (1 year ago) Permalink
sry, am bad at ilx
lol Battleship: The Movie is maybe stacking the deck a tiny bit, considering the video game context in which this conversation started
DOA3 is actually the only game I'm embarrassed to own; I bought it because the fighting got good marks (and it was a decent fighting game, if not really comparable to the Big Games) and shortly afterward they announced the beach volleyball game and I basically just wanted to die
― God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:38 (1 year ago) Permalink
one thing i can definitely say about saints row 3 is that it is absolutely neutral when it comes to making characters morbidly obese
― sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:39 (1 year ago) Permalink
the gameplay footage of Saints Row 3 make it seem to be flat-out insane
― God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:42 (1 year ago) Permalink
also I am lolling pretty hard at SW:TOC's pie disparity
oh ha trust me, SR3 is def insane. its also insanely racist and sexist while at the same time weirdly seeming completely not either. this is hard to explain.
― sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:44 (1 year ago) Permalink
well part of it is that if you just go over the top offensive towards EVERYONE, it's hard to feel like anyone is getting singled out
― God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:45 (1 year ago) Permalink
yeah thats pretty much it, when you are rolling around town beating anime nerds to death with a huge purple dildo the gloves are already off
― sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:47 (1 year ago) Permalink
― God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, April 4, 2012 4:45 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
except that this is exactly how horrible d-bags excuse their horribleness all. the fucking. time.
― catbus otm (gbx), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:47 (1 year ago) Permalink
wait jjjusten you are degloving nerds with a giant purple dildo?
― dayo, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:49 (1 year ago) Permalink
I'm watching gameplay footage of SR3 and it's just a lot of crotch punching
― dayo, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:51 (1 year ago) Permalink
like basically the difference between the GTA series and the Saints Row series in how they come across to me in their presentations is that I feel like GTA is trying to Tell A Story that I really have no interest in and also find at its core somewhat offensive, whereas Saints Row is basically just an excuse to string incidences of mayhem together with little concern for logic, character identification or plausibility
having not played either game series, I don't know if those impressions actually make sense
in most cases, those horrible d-bags aren't horrible to, say, their white bro friends, which massively undercuts their excuses
there is also a difference between humor in entertainment and behavior in polite society and how a comment may be true in one of those contexts and false in the other
― God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:51 (1 year ago) Permalink
So, Mario was voiced by Ahmed Best all along?
― Spleen of Hearts (kingfish), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 22:00 (1 year ago) Permalink
plz god remove IGN from this earth thx.
― Mordy, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 22:02 (1 year ago) Permalink
IGN: How about having the opportunity to have sex with the DOA characters?
Itagaki: Well, we felt that would disrespectful to the characters.
IGN: Haha, yeah. How about forced sex?
Itagaki: What is wrong with you?
IGN: Haha, nothing. Haha.
― Mordy, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 22:07 (1 year ago) Permalink
Haha, nothing. Haha
― raw feel vegan (silby), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 22:10 (1 year ago) Permalink
that ign stuff does bring up a good question, which is why very little mainstream/conventional game review attempts to deal with these sorts of issues, let alone even mention them? like it kind of makes sense for somebody to have at least mentioned some of the crazy stuff that pops up time to time in these games, but frankly the only time where i see this stuff mentioned is on uh ilg tbh.
― sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 22:10 (1 year ago) Permalink
b/c mainstream/conventional game reviews are all getting beaucoup payola from the publishers and again primarily written by the same poorly socialized rape culture audience
― raw feel vegan (silby), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 22:11 (1 year ago) Permalink
Here is a picture of the interviewer:
― polyphonic, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 22:12 (1 year ago) Permalink
call CPS imo
― raw feel vegan (silby), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 22:12 (1 year ago) Permalink
idk silby i dont think that mainstream game reviews are that tacitly dumb/unpleasant - again i wonder if it comes down to fear of the audience. like if you say that resident evil 5 might have a tiny smidge of racism the nerds are going to bum rush your forums looking for blood or something
― sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 22:14 (1 year ago) Permalink
Oh wait this thread is reminding me: have we mentioned the massive shitstorm that erupted when Film Crit Hulk put out that first post deconstructing the weird misogynist shit in Arkham City?
http://filmcrithulk.wordpress.com/2011/10/19/goddammit-video-games-the-first-few-hours-of-arkham-city-is-lots-of-fun-but-super-duper-sexist/
― Spleen of Hearts (kingfish), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 22:26 (1 year ago) Permalink
oh man, that led to this:
― dayo, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 23:28 (1 year ago) Permalink
there was definitely some over-sexualization of the female chars in arkham city -
the sexist dialogue gets back to what i thought about the deus ex character: can you have a racist/sexist character in a video game? certainly you can do that in a way in books and movies and people don't jump on the writer as being a racist.
― bnw, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 23:36 (1 year ago) Permalink
meaning can you have a racist/sexist protagonist?
― sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 23:40 (1 year ago) Permalink
there are ways that an author frames/contextualizes the racism/sexism of the character that implies+creates distance between the author and the protagonist. the less of a distance between the authorial voice and the protagonist's, the more you have to wonder whether the protagonist is speaking for the author (or that their ideologies, at least in this regard, are aligned cf. joseph conrad). this requires an author who has a strong command of his own voice, and the voices of his character, or else even unintentionally they will collide, interfere with one another, other voices will show up (bakhtin says this is a feature of lit, not a bug). video game writers lack the sophistication + skill at writing to draw these differences carefully. that's the favorable interpretation. the unfavorable one is that their ideology is inseparable from their characters.
― Mordy, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 23:40 (1 year ago) Permalink
That ign video ***holy shit***
― and i don't even care, similar to how a badass would respond (Abbbottt), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 23:40 (1 year ago) Permalink
i think part of the bigger question for me is why movies/books have largely moved on from racist (sexist less so) portrayals of characters but thats kinda frequent in VG world
― sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 23:42 (1 year ago) Permalink
like why are video games still long duk donging it in the 2012 basically
― sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 23:44 (1 year ago) Permalink
I'm kinda glad that I got out of gaming by the time GTA3:SA rolled around
― dayo, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 23:46 (1 year ago) Permalink
it definitely requires more skill if its the protagonist. but the thugs in arkham city are criminals that you beat to a pulp and you can do it with catwoman.
xpost to jjjusten - thats why I am less inclined to worry about my point. audience obv doesn't need any more exposure to racism/sexism.
― bnw, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 23:50 (1 year ago) Permalink
bnw you should read part two which addresses both of those points
http://filmcrithulk.wordpress.com/2011/10/21/hulk-vs-arkham-city-round-2-bitches-be-trippin/
― dayo, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 23:54 (1 year ago) Permalink
still, if the punishment delivered to the thugs ever seemed like a response to their sexism, or the game in some other textual way discussed their sexism, ie if the sexism was used discursively in any way, it might've been different. instead, at best it's just a very shallow way to sketch out their character, and left undiscussed it becomes problematic itself. ie: using sexist language to indicate that these are bad guys submerges the sexism as just a heuristic instead of its own very real thing. moreover, i think the hulk's point (i haven't read his piece in awhile) was that the sexism in AC becomes this rote form of titillation - repetitive, constant, until its on equal footing with other banter that it should not be on equal footing with.
― Mordy, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 23:57 (1 year ago) Permalink
i think what i'm saying is that you could write a video game with a sexist character, and have that character be distinct from the author(s), but a) sexism would have to play a more major, central role to the story than in Arkham City (you can't just have a sexist character and not have it mean anything larger for the themes of the game), and b) it would have to demonstrate the more serious consequences of sexism (the structural consequences, the violent consequences, the consequences for relationships and real women), instead of just leaving it with a bunch of thugs saying the word 'bitch' every 5 minutes.
― Mordy, Thursday, 5 April 2012 00:03 (1 year ago) Permalink
this thread is starting to make me hate ppl
― og (admrl), Thursday, 5 April 2012 00:08 (1 year ago) Permalink
might have something to do w/ the fact that making a compelling game is arguably harder than making a compelling record or film or painting or whatever else -- not "harder" in that "there's less to them" but in that there is a greater barrier of entry to making a game -- meaning that the people who can make games are the ones who have to go through the traditional systems of education, where that kind of sexism and racism are institutionalized. we also have a generation starting to make games now who are going to kind of be the worst -- the early millenials who have "been into games" since they were young at least in NA are largely white, and largely male, and largely priveleged, because they are the ones whose parents would be most likely to be able to afford/be willing to buy game systems for their tykes. The elitism that comes out of that, where it's like Bob is more "legit" because he had a nintendo and Sally is less "legit" b/c she only started w/ games when she got a PS2 as an adult w/ her own money is a part of that previously-mentioned institution.
That said as more kids are able to get computers in USA these days and it's less of "a thing" maybe the next generation of developers will be cooler about this stuff (even if only a small minority of them vs NONE AT ALL of them) and we can get some compelling equalist works.
sorry if this idea got posted above, i just kind of plopped it out right now b4 going out of the house.
― smash sbros (Will M.), Thursday, 5 April 2012 00:09 (1 year ago) Permalink
gamers are the worst, and gaming culture is the worst. games tho are awesome bc they drip endorphins into your brain drip drip drip until your nervous centers explode with pleasure.
― Mordy, Thursday, 5 April 2012 00:12 (1 year ago) Permalink
i dunno, if you want "gritty" batman video game experience, i think you're going to have to accept that it's probably going to come out as more trash than moral uplift. lego batman is pretty sexism/racism free i think.
― Philip Nunez, Thursday, 5 April 2012 00:12 (1 year ago) Permalink
hulk makes the point that over two batman movies christopher nolan was able to make sufficiently gritty batman experiences without the word 'bitch.'
― Mordy, Thursday, 5 April 2012 00:14 (1 year ago) Permalink
now, u know, nolan may just be our generation's greatest writer and thinker. or maybe not being a loud obnoxious sexist asshole is a very low bar that most gamers and game designers still can't clear
― Mordy, Thursday, 5 April 2012 00:15 (1 year ago) Permalink
pretty sure nolan will drop a few b-bombs when princess catwoman appears
― Philip Nunez, Thursday, 5 April 2012 00:17 (1 year ago) Permalink
btw I was on the metro a week ago around the time that school were being let out and when I was going up the escalator there was this group of kids behind me complaining about how all the good gamertags are always taken
― puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Thursday, 5 April 2012 00:18 (1 year ago) Permalink
that has nothing to do w/ this thread but this is the only game thread I have posted in in a while
― puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Thursday, 5 April 2012 00:19 (1 year ago) Permalink
"it's like dude you spend a month thinking of a good tag and then it's gone man"
agree with part 2 some places, disagree others. don't think you can ever pin down intent and I don't fully buy his equation for tone/context. but game maker is still responsible for how their work is interpreted. that's where I would concede it shouldn't be in there.
xposts i like the nolan movies but that has zero bearing on anything, imo.
― bnw, Thursday, 5 April 2012 00:22 (1 year ago) Permalink
why? what's your opinion? if the argument is that you need that word in your game to make it an appropriately gritty batman game, isn't another gritty batman game (especially a widely popular one) in a different genre a good way to evaluate that claim?
― Mordy, Thursday, 5 April 2012 00:23 (1 year ago) Permalink
disagree because they are not going for the same tone
― bnw, Thursday, 5 April 2012 00:25 (1 year ago) Permalink
don't think you can ever pin down intent &but game maker is still responsible for how their work is interpreted.
these two are kinda sides of the same coin
― dayo, Thursday, 5 April 2012 00:26 (1 year ago) Permalink
bnw, what kind of tone do you think that liberal use of the word 'bitch' achieves?
lego batman's sort of gritty to be honest. i don't think the nolan movies are a bad comparison in that it equally comes off as trash in places where it tries to be gritty (c.f. bale's VOICE)
― Philip Nunez, Thursday, 5 April 2012 00:28 (1 year ago) Permalink
bnw, can you elaborate about the differences you see in tone? i suspect that any differences you'll point out will not invalidate the point that the word isn't necessary in creating the tone of Arkham City
― Mordy, Thursday, 5 April 2012 00:29 (1 year ago) Permalink
you gotta chill on that tact, dayo. i know its funny on the borad but it kills discussion dead.
i think there is more then 1 way to make a gritty batman story. arkham city is clearly not nolan's batman, takes about 5 seconds to grasp that. the judgment of whether it is "necessary" is where I get hung up. its not one I am comfortable with.
― bnw, Thursday, 5 April 2012 00:35 (1 year ago) Permalink
not excusing its use here per se but i have some suspicion that game makers that are shooting for a teen rating but want to make things gritty etc might have taken it into account that "bitch" is one of the few swears that are going to be allowed within those boundaries.
― sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Thursday, 5 April 2012 00:37 (1 year ago) Permalink
lol bnw sorry dude, you are hoisting yourself on your own petard most times
― dayo, Thursday, 5 April 2012 00:39 (1 year ago) Permalink
stuff like this tends to be a little more useful discussionwise when peeps dont try to get personal imo
― sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Thursday, 5 April 2012 00:41 (1 year ago) Permalink
but yknow ilx and all
mordy - i think you could probably define those differences in tone, but when you get to trying to measure or quantify any of that in such a way that you could add or subtract elements and still have the same outcome - that's where I lose confidence in the judgment.
― bnw, Thursday, 5 April 2012 00:47 (1 year ago) Permalink
i would like to see bnw mount a defense of the use of the word 'bitch' in the game arkham city, particularly as how it pertains to the game successfully transmitting its tone and voice to the gamer (assuming that the tone + voice is not 'sexist'). also, i'd like the defense to go beyond, 'i'm not defending the game's use, but i can see how if they lazily wanted to make it seem edgier, this was a pretty thoughtless way to do it.' or at least an acknowledgement that deferring to artistic choice, or to being non-judgemental (as though ppl never criticize all kinds of art for all kinds of things) is a copout.
― Mordy, Thursday, 5 April 2012 00:48 (1 year ago) Permalink
xp does this hold true for all sorts of art? should i not give my opinion about a movie that includes a scene i think detracted from it? or a book from the 19th century with antiquated views on race (or a book from 2012 with the same)? i can see with some great works of art you might be loathe to start removing stuff (i love gogol and hate his anti-semitism, but i can't imagine excising it from his books), but c'mon, arkham city is not a great work of art, and the use of the word 'bitch' in it does not make it a greater than it would be without it.
― Mordy, Thursday, 5 April 2012 00:50 (1 year ago) Permalink
btw who is the good guy that uses bitch in arkham city, because if thats supposed to be jack ryder or whatever (the reporter dude) i would say he only codes as a good guy because he is not a literal criminal? pretty sure he is never a sympathetic character or meant to be one
― sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Thursday, 5 April 2012 00:53 (1 year ago) Permalink
also the fact that arkham city is at best a minor offender when compared to like most other games that arent pokemon level content prob says a lot about this question even given the idea that it is problematic in a sexist sense.
― sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Thursday, 5 April 2012 00:56 (1 year ago) Permalink
i think you can argue it improves it or makes it worse. when you talk about removing it entirely, my radar goes up that you aren't giving credit to those ramifications. and then by saying - well nolan didn't need it - my radar really goes up that you are discarding a billion fucking factors that make my experience playing this game far far far far away from sitting and watching the dark knight.
― bnw, Thursday, 5 April 2012 01:34 (1 year ago) Permalink
For me, the problems in tone of AC are both in the sexualization of every single female character(incl. changing Harley Quinn's costume _again_) against either the history of the character or even their continually rebooted current selves, and the vibe/dialogue.
One can only shudder at what would have happened had they included Paul Dini's lifelong fetish, Zatanna.
I have more to say on this later, but there is a very definite difference between AC and Saints Row III(I haven't played SR2 past 10 minutes). SR3 is a deliberate and complete joke/cartoon/farce/parody/pisstake and a shitloada absurdist fun, whereas AC is a mash-up of takes on Batman that don't always work together and with a far darker and un-fun tone. There are bits in AC that read like what would happen if Frank Miller had done TDKR _now_, as opposed to how only slightly crazy he was 25 years ago.
― Spleen of Hearts (kingfish), Thursday, 5 April 2012 02:20 (1 year ago) Permalink
I think it's really sweet (but also, yeah, a little creepy) that Paul Dini has spent his entire career writing about a thinly veiled fictional comic book version of his wife!
― Mordy, Thursday, 5 April 2012 02:23 (1 year ago) Permalink
I think you got that the other way round; Paul Dini has been writing Zatanna for like 20 years now. He married Misty Lee sometime in the last 7-8 years.
here's her back in '06:
God only knows how much Zatanna pr0n he asked Bruce Timm to draw for him.
― Spleen of Hearts (kingfish), Thursday, 5 April 2012 02:32 (1 year ago) Permalink
oooh. 100% weird.
― Mordy, Thursday, 5 April 2012 02:36 (1 year ago) Permalink
Correction: I have no idea what year they got married. I do know he got this own version of Zatanna published at Top Cow some years back, called Madame Mirage:
http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&old=1&id=10406
Based on his wife, natch. What can ya say, dude has deliberately retro tastes.
― Spleen of Hearts (kingfish), Thursday, 5 April 2012 02:38 (1 year ago) Permalink
kinda weird, but kinda makes sense, no?
― Nhex, Thursday, 5 April 2012 02:52 (1 year ago) Permalink
Pretty much. Dude's livin' the dream.
His dream, as it were.
― Spleen of Hearts (kingfish), Thursday, 5 April 2012 03:31 (1 year ago) Permalink
yup yup
but on the topic: i generally blame the same unfortunate demographic loop that happened with mainstream comic books, that for the most part, it's the young, straight male audience that is catered to with this kind of stuff, who then become the people making the games and so on. i say this as a collaborator, as I was and/or am still very much into modern games "for gamers by gamers" (thanks Interplay), if not necessarily the unfortunately attached sexism and racism that's already become a legacy
(once in a while, my mind gets blown though, like upon realizing that some of the people who composed my favorite soundtracks in the 8- and 16-bit eras were actually, gasp, women! at Capcom and Konami)
(side note: during the end credits of Saints Row 3 there are a load of production photos of the Volition crew - not surprised that there were a few women, but that any women at all were involved in that game lol)
racially it's generally the same kind of thing, add white to male (or Japanese, I guess, but it's not quite the same)
there needs to be more diversity in creators, a larger breadth of content and experiences drawing from more sources, and so on, which is slowly, slowly happening, i just hope it happens faster than it took for the movie and comics industries
but wait a sec - were we talking about the sexism/racism in the gaming "community" (unfortunately overshadowed by 12-year-old online FPS racist brats that don't represent me) or the systematic racism/sexism in-game content, stories, characters etc.? i was assuming the latter
― Nhex, Thursday, 5 April 2012 03:59 (1 year ago) Permalink
i intended to talk about the latter, simply because there isnt any answer other than like electroshock in the controllers that can really fix the former unfortunately
― sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Thursday, 5 April 2012 04:01 (1 year ago) Permalink
also, Saints Row 3 vs. Batman is an interesting comparison i think, if only for the fact that they were both big AAA titles that came out at the same time, but tonally are completely different
Batman right off the bat, I felt a little uncomfortable at EVERY single woman in the game being referred to as a bitch, a rape target, or whatever (seriously). something about the misogyny being such omnipresent window dressing, that was never really addressed in the game at all except to say "that chick is hot" or "how hasn't she been raped yet?" or "she's a crazy bitch!" was odd. the Film Crit Hulk posts were pretty on point, I think.
saints row 3 though - the context is a lot lighter and it didn't bother me at all, though the sexism in it is probably much, much worse. one mission requires you to gun down a small army of strippers and prostitutes dressed as hot cops and bikini cowgirls. they have been "inivited" to a celebratory party for the Saints gang taking over a neighborhood. in the middle of one giving a lap dance to one of your gang members, she pulls out a pistol, to which your dude yells "THESE BITCHES ARE PACKING HEAT!" The name of this chapter? Trojan Whores. so, probably worse, but so silly and stupid as to get a pass?
at the same time i feel like i should feel some more outrage as i honestly do hate when people use that excuse "we're offending EVERYBODY!" as a pathetic excuse to use racist/sexist humor, ignoring their privilege
― Nhex, Thursday, 5 April 2012 04:09 (1 year ago) Permalink
heh all too true jj
― Nhex, Thursday, 5 April 2012 04:15 (1 year ago) Permalink
Who was it, even Talia al ghul has the exposed midriff deep hemline and skintight black leather
― Spleen of Hearts (kingfish), Thursday, 5 April 2012 04:24 (1 year ago) Permalink
i really think stuff like this is way more damaging...
― Philip Nunez, Thursday, 5 April 2012 04:30 (1 year ago) Permalink
yes, all that shitty gender essentialist shovelware for girls
― and i don't even care, similar to how a badass would respond (Abbbottt), Thursday, 5 April 2012 04:37 (1 year ago) Permalink
I'm not saying that's "worse" than anything that fedora guy in the odious IGN video would have devised, but it's definitely bullshit.
― and i don't even care, similar to how a badass would respond (Abbbottt), Thursday, 5 April 2012 04:38 (1 year ago) Permalink
They both stem from the same problem of not really seeing grown women or young teenage girls as people/
― and i don't even care, similar to how a badass would respond (Abbbottt), Thursday, 5 April 2012 04:39 (1 year ago) Permalink
Well more importantly re: the mechanics of this whole thing, as consumers I fear
― sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Thursday, 5 April 2012 04:45 (1 year ago) Permalink
I should expand on that a bit, if this stuff is going to change at any point, given that it is pretty much a 100% business/profit driven venture, all the female non-white designers in the world aren't going to make a difference as long as the publishers keep looking at the bottom line and seeing it as sexstarved basement dwelling mysoginist violent high fiving dudes
― sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Thursday, 5 April 2012 04:49 (1 year ago) Permalink
most of msntrm games guardedly transgressive misogyny seems less overtly harmful than the deep-seated misogyny of p much all major hollywood films, reality tv &c &c like the degree to which 'women in videogames' are divorced for actual real life women is so great as to render the whole thing sorta disgustingly ludicrous but ultimately less 'problematic' than the fucked up messaging in like 'friends with kids' or w/e
i mean idk i guess i think my problem is with the way the thread qn is posed cuz i dont think casual racism/sexism is so much less accepted w/in video games than that it manifest in different ways and even the baseline assumption that women as exist as things to project yr fantasies onto or w/e is sorta '...'
― Lamp, Thursday, 5 April 2012 04:54 (1 year ago) Permalink
like i guess if im drunk on the internet throwing together an argument like: 'characters' (enh) in games exist to serve as fantasy objects/projections of desire in more personal/direct manner than characters in other media & so theres less purpose in portraying nuanced/humanized characters, most characters are either conduits or roadblocks to pleasure &c &c
― Lamp, Thursday, 5 April 2012 05:00 (1 year ago) Permalink
"...hence, it exploits...people!"
― Spleen of Hearts (kingfish), Thursday, 5 April 2012 07:30 (1 year ago) Permalink
all the female non-white designers in the world aren't going to make a difference as long as the publishers keep looking at the bottom line and seeing it as sexstarved basement dwelling mysoginist violent high fiving dudes
absolutely could not disagree more. the kind of decisions you are talking about are not made at the $$$ level -- there's no cigar-munching guy who doesn't give a shit about games going "WHERE'S THE TITTIES" or something. those hands-off money people want to see 1.) sequels to successful franchises 2) whatever's hot (multiplayer modes, microtransactions, etc.) 3) shit they can write on the back of the box. it's depressing to say but i don't think the sex/racism is cynical. i think i'd be happier if it were. but the bottom line is the people who are making those decisions are at the """creative""" level. writers, artists, designers, producers.
on the comic book point btw isn't it a little unfair to say that that whole industry is a shitpile? i mean maybe i don't know wtf i am talking about because my roommate buys a LOT of comics but they're all like Habibi and Hark a Vagrant and Chris Ware & non Marvel/DC stuff. It seems that there's a lot of that kind of non-creepy-superboobs-type stuff out there?
that's a side note though. TLDR i've worked with & for a few of the bigger companies (EA, Atari) & a couple of smaller ones in the industry & i can tell you that the people who make the shitty unfeminist creative decisions are usually writers, or maaaaaybe producers (who are fyi the second-lowest paid people in the industry on average behind QA!) or maybe artists. Not shareholders and suits.
― smash sbros (Will M.), Thursday, 5 April 2012 08:18 (1 year ago) Permalink
i played an hour each of deus ex and arkham city at a friend's, having already heard the complaints about racism and sexism, and what i was struck by was that the writing was actually offensively stupid on every other level too
― thomp, Thursday, 5 April 2012 09:24 (1 year ago) Permalink
Haha, and to think, the two biggest sexist targets now are Arkham City and DC Comics.
― Spleen of Hearts (kingfish), Thursday, 5 April 2012 12:26 (1 year ago) Permalink
By the way, it seems to me that blog isn't really getting any milage out of the hulk thing. Outside of the caps and occasional reference to self in the third person, there's like no "hulk" to the style.
― s.clover, Thursday, 5 April 2012 13:31 (1 year ago) Permalink
and what i was struck by was that the writing was actually offensively stupid on every other level too
tbf this is a problem with videogames in general
― 1986 tallest hair contest (Z S), Thursday, 5 April 2012 13:39 (1 year ago) Permalink
FCH has said that it's a deliberate affectation that's gotten him far more attention than when he wrote straight. I like his stuff. Yeah, he varies the amount of Hulkness by the post tho
― Spleen of Hearts (kingfish), Thursday, 5 April 2012 14:09 (1 year ago) Permalink
― Nhex, Thursday, 5 April 2012 14:27 (1 year ago) Permalink
For the record, the earlier conversation point from Will has been deleted and the thread is indexed again.Though I think we'd all be interested in seeing that other thread will.
― wrapped sausage stylus (forksclovetofu), Thursday, 5 April 2012 15:13 (1 year ago) Permalink
rip my post
― dayo, Thursday, 5 April 2012 17:12 (1 year ago) Permalink
a lot of this handwringing is over a certain subset of things on any platform that seem to be mainstream exemplars, because that's what the specialty shops showcase, but they are actually a minority of the market. probably stuff like archie, disney comics outsell big-boobed grimace warrior stuff (hark a vagrant is definitely outselling frank miller's latest castatrophe), and the most popular videogames are more like angry birds, and that's only racist against pigs. movies and tv are still bigger offenders, relatively speaking.
― Philip Nunez, Thursday, 5 April 2012 17:23 (1 year ago) Permalink
Do they outsell in general, or just in places like Berkeley?
― polyphonic, Thursday, 5 April 2012 18:16 (1 year ago) Permalink
Angry Birds, just the first version, just on iOS, has done 12 million units, all versions and platforms 700 million downloads. Arkham City across all platforms ~5 million.
Smaller margins, but way bigger audience.
― raw feel vegan (silby), Thursday, 5 April 2012 18:28 (1 year ago) Permalink
Hark! A Vagrant by Kate BeatonAmazon Best Sellers Rank: #3,838 in Books
Holy Terror by Frank MillerAmazon Best Sellers Rank: #138,622 in Books
― Philip Nunez, Thursday, 5 April 2012 18:55 (1 year ago) Permalink
Ha ha, suck it, frank miller. pwned
i can say with some certainty that i will never need to buy a new frank miller book ever again
― wrapped sausage stylus (forksclovetofu), Thursday, 5 April 2012 18:57 (1 year ago) Permalink
― bnw, Thursday, 5 April 2012 19:16 (1 year ago) Permalink
and yet they went with a butt shot
― thomp, Thursday, 5 April 2012 19:39 (1 year ago) Permalink
Plus all the male characters are still muscly male power fantasies and not you know
― raw feel vegan (silby), Thursday, 5 April 2012 19:49 (1 year ago) Permalink
lol or sigh?http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2012/04/potential-porn-site-sponsorship-causes-split-over-fighting-game-communitys-self-image.ars
― Nhex, Friday, 6 April 2012 02:23 (1 year ago) Permalink
I think the fighting game community is the same one that had a bunch of dudes earnestly defending trash-talking each other by shouting "get raped" and the like.
― raw feel vegan (silby), Friday, 6 April 2012 02:33 (1 year ago) Permalink
Did this get circulated around here or did I come across it somewhere else? I totally forget
http://www.penny-arcade.com/report/editorial-article/sexual-harassment-as-ethical-imperative-the-ugly-side-of-fighting-games
― raw feel vegan (silby), Friday, 6 April 2012 02:35 (1 year ago) Permalink
i saw that situation as a horrible example; that stuff does happen unfortunately, but the nature of most hardcore fighting games involving face-to-face situations leads to people being more respectful that you would guess, especially compared to online
― Nhex, Friday, 6 April 2012 03:34 (1 year ago) Permalink
good thread.
boring answer but i think this is mostly due to a) writing being secondary to gameplay (if this is even a consideration - v. often it is not) and b) videogame writing being completely terrible and embarrassing 100% of the time.
lots of folks have already said this stuff but i am serriously struggling to think of one well-written game and i have played roughly a billion of them. i don't think it's a coincidence that we're still in the dark ages when dealing with nuanced topics... we're in the dark ages PERIOD. so we get bad guys shouting 'bitch' at girls bc its easy shorthand for 'edgy'. lazy writing bc these people are lazy/horrible writers.
― (⊙_⊙?) (Alan N), Friday, 6 April 2012 04:39 (1 year ago) Permalink
Earthbound & Mother 3 both well-written, you can count on me to parrot that anywhere.
― and i don't even care, similar to how a badass would respond (Abbbottt), Friday, 6 April 2012 05:10 (1 year ago) Permalink
the last express is better than agatha christie (but this is a once-in-a-decade game, for the most part yeah even/especially the games lauded for their writing do not have very good writing)
― their private gesture for bison (difficult listening hour), Friday, 6 April 2012 05:14 (1 year ago) Permalink
agreed on mother/earthbound, very sweet yet haunting games
last express was pretty damn cool, especially because of the way the action happens regardless of what you're doing, and how the game itself was designed around this real-time story with the rewindable clock and such
planescape: torment is legendary, though it could be the nostalgia talking... i haven't played it in about ten years. but i loved the plot/characters, and there was a beastly amount of sheer high-quality text in it
shadow of destiny has all the hallmarks of crappy video game writing - crap dialogue, shallow characters, environments, etc., and as a game it's not very good. but the plot structure is pretty unique and magnificent. basically the concept behind the game is that you keep getting murdered, and given the chance to rewind/alter your destiny, but of course things keep going wrong. then there's time travel involved and a whole bunch of different people and timelines start getting messed with, and a crap load of endings before you get the "true" one that ties everything together. but i'm a sucker for Groundhog Day-type plots
also, not as serious, but i think the comedy writing in the 90s Lucasarts games is very high quality, not just the dialogue but the creativity and general wackiness involved in the puzzles
i see the point there that the writing should be secondary to the gameplay, in general, though it shouldn't mean it should be sacrificed altogether...
― Nhex, Friday, 6 April 2012 06:01 (1 year ago) Permalink
Like with Grim Fandango and Tim Schafer, Planescape cemented Chris Avellone's legacy forever. I got at least one other Ilxor in this thread to play the game just by mentioned that Sheena Easton voiced the hot chick love interest in the game.
― Spleen of Hearts (kingfish), Friday, 6 April 2012 07:48 (1 year ago) Permalink
yeah i was about to point to Mother 3 as being incredibly well written, even before seeing abbott's post
― ciderpress, Friday, 6 April 2012 13:27 (1 year ago) Permalink
Planescape: Torment's real genius doesn't even start until you pump tons of points into the Nameless One's intelligence and his dialogue choices become ridiculous
― God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Friday, 6 April 2012 13:45 (1 year ago) Permalink
Shigesato Itoi who wrote the Mother games is actual proper writer though, isn't he? (also the dad in Totoro!)The best written games do tend to be the "show don't tell" ones though like Portal, exposition through cutscenes needs to die
― zappi, Friday, 6 April 2012 13:49 (1 year ago) Permalink
Arkham City was written by Paul Dini, the creator of Harley Quinn, which makes the treatment of her by the story an extra layer of creepy to me
also before this thread, I didn't notice the sexism of AC as being overt and off-putting, mostly because I spent most of my time leaping off of buildings and shouting "WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE" at the television
― God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Friday, 6 April 2012 13:54 (1 year ago) Permalink
I think you mean "WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE I'M RACIST"
― wrapped sausage stylus (forksclovetofu), Friday, 6 April 2012 14:44 (1 year ago) Permalink
I will admit that Batman shouting "WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE I'M RACIST" when he leaps off of buildings in AC would make this my favorite game of all time
― God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Friday, 6 April 2012 14:46 (1 year ago) Permalink
let's get ZS on the phone and make this happen
― wrapped sausage stylus (forksclovetofu), Friday, 6 April 2012 14:46 (1 year ago) Permalink
The best written games do tend to be the "show don't tell" ones though like Portal, exposition through cutscenes needs to die
yes, yes, YES.
some good good examples of well-written games that I hadn't thought of. a definite 'yes' to earthbound (esp. bc a lot of the good stuff here happens while bumbling around and talking to incidental characters - it's videogamey and not just blindly aping the style of books/films), haven't played mother 3, and was considering grim fandango. it impressed me heavily at the time but it's been so long that I honestly can't say anymore.
I do think it's telling that we've only come up with only a handful of games but I think everyone is in agreement that these games are the exception (and a minor one at that) and not the rule anyway.
― (⊙_⊙?) (Alan N), Friday, 6 April 2012 15:10 (1 year ago) Permalink
also, wow @ itoi being the dad in totoro!
― (⊙_⊙?) (Alan N), Friday, 6 April 2012 15:11 (1 year ago) Permalink
Mother 3 much better written than Mother 2/Earthbound IMO. Wld argue all the Phoenix Wright games were well-written, funny and sometimes suspenseful. Good female characters in those, too! Though not without some vid game yuckiness eg Trucy's magic panties.
― and i don't even care, similar to how a badass would respond (Abbbottt), Friday, 6 April 2012 15:21 (1 year ago) Permalink
oh videogamepanties
― God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Friday, 6 April 2012 15:22 (1 year ago) Permalink
hahaha
― (⊙_⊙?) (Alan N), Friday, 6 April 2012 15:25 (1 year ago) Permalink
feel that Bungie's games, esp. Marathon, are usually well-written although obv a tremendous dearth of female characters
― dayo, Friday, 6 April 2012 15:32 (1 year ago) Permalink
a big factor that hasn't been directly mentioned yet is JAPAN. Japan is a sexist society and most of their art also includes that. and their video games make up a big part of the market.
― the acquisition and practice of music is unfavourable to the health of (abanana), Friday, 6 April 2012 16:13 (1 year ago) Permalink
― sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, April 4, 2012 4:25 PM (2 days ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
ha i have the feeling that the fallout games would be better if there was more racism and sexism in them! mostly because i have the cynical feeling that if a 50's dreamworld collapsed into nuclear terror things would get racialist and bigman-dominated really quickly. you get a few 'bad pimp' characters here and there, and some evil psycho rapist villains, and there's the lingering presence of bigotry against ghouls which kind of stands in for other kids of prejudice.
but really there are moments when i felt like the game's unspoken racial equality and gay-positivity felt like, idk, controversy avoidance more than anything? maybe i'm too deep in the liberal bubble.
the fallout world is free of the the kind of hatefulness we see irl. people want to kill each other but not for the reasons people want to kill each other now, if that makes sense.
― goole, Friday, 6 April 2012 16:27 (1 year ago) Permalink
that's where things get dicey. when to be culturally tolerant means tolerating bigotry/sexism/etc. xpost
― bnw, Friday, 6 April 2012 16:28 (1 year ago) Permalink
That cooking mama comic would be a lot funnier if they didn't have her getting beat the fuck up in it, what the hell.
― and i don't even care, similar to how a badass would respond (Abbbottt), Friday, 6 April 2012 16:30 (1 year ago) Permalink
Plus it activates the ILX/grad school-induced part of my brain that wants to sneer at its unsophisticated understanding of 'power structures.' But anyway lol, the punchline is: submission by violence.
― and i don't even care, similar to how a badass would respond (Abbbottt), Friday, 6 April 2012 16:32 (1 year ago) Permalink
Plus there is the reactionary 'modern Bust magazine is half about crafting feminist' part of my brain that says wtf is wrong w/being a cooking, crafting mama anyway. That after I libeled those Imagine Girlz Makeup games.
― and i don't even care, similar to how a badass would respond (Abbbottt), Friday, 6 April 2012 16:34 (1 year ago) Permalink
I thought cooking mama is a fun game; I like chopping daikon irl and on vid games.
― and i don't even care, similar to how a badass would respond (Abbbottt), Friday, 6 April 2012 16:35 (1 year ago) Permalink
ALSO I think it's wrong to say "JAPAN is sexist and that's the big factor," U.S. and Japan not in some kind of sexism contest, and if they were I don't honestly know who would win. U.S. is sexist too and to blame all this on Japan and not the ppl in the U.S. buying/supporting/etc this seems....not "casually racist," but...let me dial up Momus here, he would have some things to say about this.
― and i don't even care, similar to how a badass would respond (Abbbottt), Friday, 6 April 2012 16:39 (1 year ago) Permalink
i don't play many japanese games, doesn't seem that relevant to me.
the loci of video game sexism that i think of like penny arcade are US of A
― goole, Friday, 6 April 2012 16:43 (1 year ago) Permalink
Japan being sexist is a big factor on Japanese games being sexist. I am not commenting on games from other countries there.
― the acquisition and practice of music is unfavourable to the health of (abanana), Friday, 6 April 2012 16:45 (1 year ago) Permalink
I think that comic is more casually racist/sexist than Cooking Mama, is what I'm saying.
― and i don't even care, similar to how a badass would respond (Abbbottt), Friday, 6 April 2012 16:46 (1 year ago) Permalink
― goole, Friday, April 6, 2012 12:27 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark
i dont think its controversy avoidance so much as a conscious attempt to go against the grain! it certainly caused more controversy than if there hadn't been any gay characters in it at all. je sawyer wrote something cool on this topic:
http://twofoldsilence.diogenes-lamp.info/2011/06/platonic-forms-of-marginalized.html
― these pretzels are makeing me horney (Hungry4Ass), Friday, 6 April 2012 16:46 (1 year ago) Permalink
holy lol
― God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Friday, 6 April 2012 16:48 (1 year ago) Permalink
gamers are so smart
haha damn ppl are so ignorant
i guess what i'm trying to say is, the game would have felt more real to me, and braver, if there was NOT ONLY a great gay character like arcade gannon, but also some asshole who's like "what are you doing rolling around with this faggot?" i can't fully understand why there wasn't tho
iirc there were some sublimated hints here and there that people think the Legion is a bunch of angry gays, right?
(i'll have to read that sawyer piece)
― goole, Friday, 6 April 2012 16:52 (1 year ago) Permalink
veronica mentions her ex-girlfriend's Brotherhood of Steel family not looking kindly on their relationship
― their private gesture for bison (difficult listening hour), Friday, 6 April 2012 16:56 (1 year ago) Permalink
what i dig in fallout are the NCR recruitment posters that say "LADIES! EVERY ONE OF YOU THAT SERVES IS A SLAP ACROSS CAESAR'S FACE!"
― their private gesture for bison (difficult listening hour), Friday, 6 April 2012 16:58 (1 year ago) Permalink
"the fallout world is free of the the kind of hatefulness we see irl. people want to kill each other but not for the reasons people want to kill each other now, if that makes sense."
i disagree that it is a gamemaker's responsibility to provide the hatefulness. that's the gamer's job.
― Philip Nunez, Friday, 6 April 2012 18:04 (1 year ago) Permalink
abbs otm
― dayo, Friday, 6 April 2012 18:12 (1 year ago) Permalink
yeah agreed.
― wrapped sausage stylus (forksclovetofu), Friday, 6 April 2012 18:14 (1 year ago) Permalink
yeah, lets dial up momus so he can justify his yellow fever over submissive women to us.
― bnw, Friday, 6 April 2012 18:27 (1 year ago) Permalink
why did momus stop posting here
― these pretzels are makeing me horney (Hungry4Ass), Friday, 6 April 2012 18:28 (1 year ago) Permalink
he was banned iirc
― wrapped sausage stylus (forksclovetofu), Friday, 6 April 2012 18:30 (1 year ago) Permalink
Too busy jacking it onto his girlfriend's face.
It's true; dude used to post about that unreservedly.
xp or that too
― Spleen of Hearts (kingfish), Friday, 6 April 2012 18:34 (1 year ago) Permalink
btw there are crazy japanese rape games that are not sold in the US iirc. so good luck putting that on the American consumer.
― bnw, Friday, 6 April 2012 18:36 (1 year ago) Permalink
Part of why the racist/sexist bits can get downplayed in the Fallout world is that you have a clear external enemy that everybody could project their animus against: super mutants and ghouls. With supermutants running around actively trying to ice normals, and rabid ghouls serving in the place of zombies, those should easily fill the slot of "shit to fear & hate" before all the humans get around to going at other humans.
I hope in the upcoming Wasteland 2 kickstarter project, they keep a satirical or just funny tone to everything, only basing it on 80s ideas instead of post-war/pre-cuban-missile-crisis ones
― Spleen of Hearts (kingfish), Friday, 6 April 2012 18:38 (1 year ago) Permalink
are japan rape games really chart toppers though? i really think japan's cultural influence on video games esp w/r/t nintendo is more infantilization (and therefore inherently less racist, less sexist) there's really no way around being disgusting if you want games that are more "mature". if they're handled poorly, they're going to be disgusting, and even if they're handled well, they're still going to be disgusting.
― Philip Nunez, Friday, 6 April 2012 19:00 (1 year ago) Permalink
I guess the only solution is to start importing vid games from all the world's many sexually progressive, wholly egalitarian countries.
― and i don't even care, similar to how a badass would respond (Abbbottt), Friday, 6 April 2012 19:12 (1 year ago) Permalink
utopiastan's video games are totally awesome
― wrapped sausage stylus (forksclovetofu), Friday, 6 April 2012 19:14 (1 year ago) Permalink
tbh if I lived in that country I wouldn't need the numbing escape of vid games
― and i don't even care, similar to how a badass would respond (Abbbottt), Friday, 6 April 2012 19:15 (1 year ago) Permalink
lol abbs otm again
― goole, Friday, 6 April 2012 19:16 (1 year ago) Permalink
i really think japan's cultural influence on video games esp w/r/t nintendo is more infantilization (and therefore inherently less racist, less sexist)
are you fucking kidding me
do you not really remember, for example, Barrett in FFVII, or all of the grossly exaggerated Italianisms from the Mario games that I posted upthread, or this:
oh no! SPANKING VIDEO GAME! oh no!
― God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Friday, 6 April 2012 19:18 (1 year ago) Permalink
xp the reason they're totally awesome is because you live them
― wrapped sausage stylus (forksclovetofu), Friday, 6 April 2012 19:19 (1 year ago) Permalink
mario only gets progressively racist the more gritty and "real" he gets. you'd need to have 'call of duty' level mario to really get offensive.
― Philip Nunez, Friday, 6 April 2012 19:21 (1 year ago) Permalink
Can I say the world's progressive/sexually explicit video games also sound boring and creepy?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_Life_%28video_game%29
"Night Life was marketed as an aid for the sex life of couples. It included such features as a schedule to determine a woman's period, and a catalog of possible sexual positions, with artwork consisting of black-and-white outlines."
― and i don't even care, similar to how a badass would respond (Abbbottt), Friday, 6 April 2012 19:24 (1 year ago) Permalink
Maybe just that one does.
Different aims of a product. when games are designed without the actual gameplay or game-ness forefront, you can get drops in quality. Its one of the reasons educational or advocacy games aren't as good; their primary focus is on teaching or advocacy, not necessary on badass gamery. Implicit messaging in a game because explicit, and subtext becomes text, tending to make you a helluva lot less likely to accept or consume it.
thus the boringness.
― Spleen of Hearts (kingfish), Friday, 6 April 2012 19:32 (1 year ago) Permalink
it makes more sense to compare those Japanese sex games to Japanese pornography, which it's very much in line with
― Nhex, Friday, 6 April 2012 19:34 (1 year ago) Permalink
Abbottttt were you also offended by the chappelle wayne brady skit
― the acquisition and practice of music is unfavourable to the health of (abanana), Friday, 6 April 2012 19:38 (1 year ago) Permalink
I was offended by the horrible cgi
― Spleen of Hearts (kingfish), Friday, 6 April 2012 20:13 (1 year ago) Permalink
ha this was p much the source of my question about whether mass effect lets you roleplay a homophobe
― thomp, Saturday, 7 April 2012 06:08 (1 year ago) Permalink
ernest adams & the Straight Male Gamer http://www.nomorelost.org/2011/04/08/equality-in-the-gaming-industry-interview-with-ernest-adams/
― ogmor, Friday, 13 April 2012 18:01 (1 year ago) Permalink
innerestin'
― Nhex, Friday, 13 April 2012 23:31 (1 year ago) Permalink
Female games journalist vs E3:http://www.kotaku.com.au/2012/06/513794/
― instant coffee happening between us (a passing spacecadet), Monday, 18 June 2012 22:30 (11 months ago) Permalink
dunno about that article but i will say that i'm kinda astonished E3 still does the booth babe thinglike how insulting and fratboy is that?
― Authorities don't know who shot the 50 Cent the goose. (forksclovetofu), Monday, 18 June 2012 23:30 (11 months ago) Permalink
basically the maximum possible amount
― "Holy crap," I mutter, as he gently taps my area (silby), Monday, 18 June 2012 23:32 (11 months ago) Permalink
couple of reactions to geek cultures:
http://squidygirl.blogspot.com/2012/06/lets-play-game-part-1-catwoman-and-lara.html
http://squidygirl.blogspot.com/2012/06/lets-play-game-part-2-women-vs-tropes.html
― Fiendish Doctor Wu! (kingfish), Monday, 18 June 2012 23:42 (11 months ago) Permalink
for a sec i thought that journo article was gonna be one of those freaky pro-ESDF things
― Nhex, Monday, 18 June 2012 23:56 (11 months ago) Permalink
then i finished it and was a little sadder
― Nhex, Monday, 18 June 2012 23:57 (11 months ago) Permalink
why is esdf better than wasd?
― un® (dayo), Tuesday, 19 June 2012 00:01 (11 months ago) Permalink
I'd assume b/c ESDF would have your hand in the homerow position but that's the first I've heard of this particular thing
― "Holy crap," I mutter, as he gently taps my area (silby), Tuesday, 19 June 2012 00:19 (11 months ago) Permalink
i take no position on it, as a lefty anywayhttp://use-esdf.org/
― Nhex, Tuesday, 19 June 2012 00:42 (11 months ago) Permalink
ugh the comments on that kotaku piece...
― Sisig Steve (stevie), Tuesday, 19 June 2012 06:45 (11 months ago) Permalink
The Kotaku piece made me fucking boiling mad, and I havent involved myself in the games feminism thing that much as I'm not a huge gamer. But faaark, the patronising attitude is coming out all over the place lately, every time a woman pipes up and says "guys you know what? This shit actually isn't cool" they end up with a barrage of "die you bitch whore" abuse.
My male gamer friends are astonished at the vitriol. And that makes me even sadder, that they would be suprised it exists.
― Pureed Moods (Trayce), Tuesday, 19 June 2012 07:00 (11 months ago) Permalink
Laura Hudson, the recently ex-editor of Comicsalliance, was excellent at publishing stories that explored questions of gender and sexism in comics, and her reward was a never ending tirade of sexist bullshit in the comments boxes. Comics and Video Games fandom just seem really regressive and repellent to me; not sure if they're actually any worse that other realms of fandom, but they make no effort - or lack the self-awareness to - mask it.
― Sisig Steve (stevie), Tuesday, 19 June 2012 09:59 (11 months ago) Permalink
Also, ex-ilxor, as she was the original mod on ILG with me
― Fiendish Doctor Wu! (kingfish), Friday, 22 June 2012 18:00 (11 months ago) Permalink
I think part of it is that geek and nerd subculture is full of geeks and nerds i.e. people who have a gradient of ASD/socialization problems.
And the Internet is a great way to express unfiltered idiocy. Like sports talk radio.
― Fiendish Doctor Wu! (kingfish), Friday, 22 June 2012 18:03 (11 months ago) Permalink
i wouldn't blame nerddom -- puzzle-game geeks and archie comic nerds aren't spewing ugliness.
― Philip Nunez, Friday, 22 June 2012 18:25 (11 months ago) Permalink
Probably because those are mainly women in those categories
― Fiendish Doctor Wu! (kingfish), Friday, 22 June 2012 18:31 (11 months ago) Permalink
they're still nerds!
― Philip Nunez, Friday, 22 June 2012 18:43 (11 months ago) Permalink
Yeah, I'll take a random enthusiast over a random Xbox player any day.
― Andrew Farrell, Friday, 22 June 2012 19:21 (11 months ago) Permalink
Well, yeah, no question there, but I think that if you want an area where unsocialized obsessive dudes wind up, nerd culture has a far lower physical barrier to entry than say football
― Fiendish Doctor Wu! (kingfish), Friday, 22 June 2012 19:40 (11 months ago) Permalink
ASD/socialization problems no excuse for being a totally vile misogynist
― the magic butterfly made everyone feel relaxed (Abbbottt), Friday, 22 June 2012 21:53 (11 months ago) Permalink
even if that is the case
I don't know that it's fair to suggest the two overlap
― the magic butterfly made everyone feel relaxed (Abbbottt), Friday, 22 June 2012 21:54 (11 months ago) Permalink
yeah, there's enough problems without adding on mysogyny
― Nhex, Friday, 22 June 2012 22:51 (11 months ago) Permalink
Not excusing it, just saying I ain't surprised
― Fiendish Doctor Wu! (kingfish), Saturday, 23 June 2012 02:38 (11 months ago) Permalink
I dont think the kind of gamers who abuse people in comments boxes or over their Gears of War headset are nerds, is the thing to be honest. They're jock bullies, just like they would be on the footy field or at a bar. Its just that playing video games isnt uncool anymore - esp games like GoW, Halo, GTA etc.
― Pureed Moods (Trayce), Saturday, 23 June 2012 02:44 (11 months ago) Permalink
uh, yeah they are nerds.
― tell it to my arse (jim in glasgow), Saturday, 23 June 2012 03:49 (11 months ago) Permalink
unless "jocks" are really into leaving comments on kotaku articles on your planet.
― tell it to my arse (jim in glasgow), Saturday, 23 June 2012 03:52 (11 months ago) Permalink
Actually I know plenty of pretty unnerdy guys who play video games, is all im sayin. Unless 'uses a computer' is all that makes someone a nerd!?
― Pureed Moods (Trayce), Saturday, 23 June 2012 04:18 (11 months ago) Permalink
as do i, but they wouldn't even know what kotaku is.
― tell it to my arse (jim in glasgow), Saturday, 23 June 2012 04:23 (11 months ago) Permalink
The internet has made me hate "nerds".
― circa1916, Saturday, 23 June 2012 04:42 (11 months ago) Permalink
I love nerdy shit but I haaaaaatttte "nerd culture"
― fancy poodle (latebloomer), Thursday, 28 June 2012 00:42 (10 months ago) Permalink
― Pureed Moods (Trayce), Friday, June 22, 2012 10:44 PM (5 days ago) Bookmark
nah ime these would be bona fide nerds
― Faith in Humanity: Restored (dayo), Thursday, 28 June 2012 00:45 (10 months ago) Permalink
I don't know why we have to classify people into buckets like "nerds" and "jocks", lots of people have jockish tendencies if they don't have to back up things that they or risk getting their ass kicked.
― frogbs, Thursday, 28 June 2012 01:40 (10 months ago) Permalink
frogbs are you a nerd or a jock
― Faith in Humanity: Restored (dayo), Thursday, 28 June 2012 01:41 (10 months ago) Permalink
start a poll thread
― Mordy, Thursday, 28 June 2012 01:43 (10 months ago) Permalink
jock'cuse!
― Philip Nunez, Thursday, 28 June 2012 01:44 (10 months ago) Permalink
uhhh take one guess dayo
― frogbs, Thursday, 28 June 2012 02:30 (10 months ago) Permalink
I think bro or brah is a far better and less 20th Century designation than jock.
― Fiendish Doctor Wu! (kingfish), Thursday, 28 June 2012 07:22 (10 months ago) Permalink
In tech, some bemoan the rise of 'brogrammer' culture
― put a fillyjonk on it (a passing spacecadet), Thursday, 28 June 2012 09:29 (10 months ago) Permalink
Okay the thing that really made me lol in that article aside from "bro down and crush some code" was the reference to Kick-Ass Cupcakes, which the author obviously does not realize is the actual name of a Boston cupcake bakery.
― Victory Chainsaw! (DJP), Thursday, 28 June 2012 13:20 (10 months ago) Permalink
it's like the darkside of the Ace of Cakes folks in their baltimore hideout
― Fiendish Doctor Wu! (kingfish), Friday, 29 June 2012 05:40 (10 months ago) Permalink
come to think of it, the rise of gendered portmanteaus is what makes me most violent of all
― Fiendish Doctor Wu! (kingfish), Friday, 29 June 2012 05:41 (10 months ago) Permalink
what, like "brodown" or "manscape"?
― Nhex, Friday, 29 June 2012 05:45 (10 months ago) Permalink
ARGH
― Fiendish Doctor Wu! (kingfish), Friday, 29 June 2012 06:29 (10 months ago) Permalink
dudecum
― puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Friday, 29 June 2012 06:42 (10 months ago) Permalink
― Philip Nunez, Thursday, June 28, 2012 1:44 AM (4 days ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
lmao
― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Monday, 2 July 2012 04:23 (10 months ago) Permalink
http://www.quartertothree.com/fp/2012/10/14/starcraft-e-sports-hits-the-big-time
― Mordy, Sunday, 14 October 2012 21:52 (7 months ago) Permalink
http://thephoenix.com/Boston/recroom/145892-one-womans-battle-against-the-anxious-masculinity/
― Nhex, Wednesday, 24 October 2012 03:29 (6 months ago) Permalink
Wow. Great read.
― Doctor Casino, Wednesday, 24 October 2012 03:40 (6 months ago) Permalink
ugh, why do the ppl i share this hobby with suck so much?
― Mordy, Wednesday, 24 October 2012 03:47 (6 months ago) Permalink
excellent read.
― Author ~ Coach ~ Goddess (s1ocki), Wednesday, 24 October 2012 04:36 (6 months ago) Permalink
^^
― www.toilet-guru.com (silby), Wednesday, 24 October 2012 05:27 (6 months ago) Permalink
that was a v inoffensive read
― puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Wednesday, 24 October 2012 05:28 (6 months ago) Permalink
http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2012/11/01/halo_4_release_343_industries_bonnie_ross_and_kiki_wolfkill_decry_sexist.html
― Mordy, Friday, 2 November 2012 03:35 (6 months ago) Permalink
better ridiculously late then never
― bnw, Friday, 2 November 2012 04:03 (6 months ago) Permalink
#!
― Andrew Farrell, Friday, 16 November 2012 22:59 (6 months ago) Permalink
not clicking
― Fieri-brand sausages into my and your ready holes (silby), Saturday, 17 November 2012 02:42 (6 months ago) Permalink
it's not bad, actually
― well if it isn't old 11 cameras simon (gbx), Saturday, 17 November 2012 03:46 (6 months ago) Permalink
Suit yourself - it's log.
― Andrew Farrell, Saturday, 17 November 2012 10:51 (6 months ago) Permalink
hah that was funny actually, assumed from the screencap that it was the opposite of what it was
― Fieri-brand sausages into my and your ready holes (silby), Saturday, 17 November 2012 16:51 (6 months ago) Permalink
^same here. and he IS a Charlie Brooker clone, but a pretty good one!
― Nhex, Saturday, 17 November 2012 17:48 (6 months ago) Permalink
Lookee that, it's gone viral enough to make the Guardian:
http://m.guardiannews.com/technology/gamesblog/2012/nov/17/oxm-breakdown-review?cat=technology&type=article
― the max in the high castle (kingfish), Monday, 19 November 2012 15:18 (6 months ago) Permalink
http://www.joystiq.com/2012/12/04/hitman-facebook-promo-killed-must-have-had-small-titswow
― (alternatively, “Respec’”) (forksclovetofu), Tuesday, 4 December 2012 23:28 (5 months ago) Permalink
good job square pr team
― Nhex, Tuesday, 4 December 2012 23:53 (5 months ago) Permalink
ex-TalkRadar folks talk about this kinda thing, mainly the #1reason
http://www.lasertimepodcast.com/2012/12/03/laser-time-1reason-fun/
― "It's the Stay-Puft Marshmallow Drunk!" (kingfish), Wednesday, 5 December 2012 00:29 (5 months ago) Permalink
I really hope someday speech-to-text tools are good enough to interpret these podcasts
― Nhex, Wednesday, 5 December 2012 03:13 (5 months ago) Permalink
I just hope people stop making fucking podcasts.
― attempt to look intentionally nerdy, awkward or (thomp), Wednesday, 5 December 2012 03:37 (5 months ago) Permalink
not to insist that a specious parallelism is the same thing as equality, but for what its worth acc. to pcgamer there was list of things you could say was wrong with dudes also
Female friends got to be called out on “awful make-up,” “annoying laugh,” “strange odour,” “muffin top,” or “small tits,” among others. Male targets, meanwhile, could be chided on their “bad hair,” “big ears,” “hairy back,” “big gut,” or “small penis.”
― attempt to look intentionally nerdy, awkward or (thomp), Wednesday, 5 December 2012 03:41 (5 months ago) Permalink
not included: "plays videogames"
― (alternatively, “Respec’”) (forksclovetofu), Wednesday, 5 December 2012 04:40 (5 months ago) Permalink
what happened to the girls vs video game tropes project? It's hard to tell from the reddit men's movement.
― bnw, Wednesday, 5 December 2012 21:34 (5 months ago) Permalink
She stole all the money, and lol at every dipshit who donated to that crap
― turds (Hungry4Ass), Wednesday, 5 December 2012 22:35 (5 months ago) Permalink
― Andrew Farrell, Wednesday, 5 December 2012 23:02 (5 months ago) Permalink
that looks a LOT like someone I know
― crüt, Wednesday, 5 December 2012 23:16 (5 months ago) Permalink
that looks like $5 of gamestop credit right there.
― Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 5 December 2012 23:19 (5 months ago) Permalink
I have that IKEA desk lamp
― pun lovin criminal (polyphonic), Thursday, 6 December 2012 00:08 (5 months ago) Permalink
― 乒乓, Tuesday, 15 January 2013 23:08 (4 months ago) Permalink
jfc
― goole, Tuesday, 15 January 2013 23:10 (4 months ago) Permalink
― cozen, Tuesday, 15 January 2013 23:16 (4 months ago) Permalink
good use of that gif
― an old penis drawing is now "new and notable" (forksclovetofu), Tuesday, 15 January 2013 23:42 (4 months ago) Permalink
tom chick on this. he's got blinders on. http://www.quartertothree.com/fp/2013/01/16/dead-island-or-bust-the-case-for-tasteless-horror-tchotchkes/
― s.clover, Thursday, 17 January 2013 04:09 (4 months ago) Permalink
yeah... sometimes that dude is just straight up wrong. it's a shame because the use of horror and unrestricted content in games is totally worth defending, but the actual bust - the thing we are talking about here - is just idiotic
― Nhex, Thursday, 17 January 2013 04:29 (4 months ago) Permalink
rmde at that guy.
His response to 1) basically boils down to "the objectification of women in horror appeals to the people who should be watching it, i.e. MEN, so therefore it's fine". Great reasoning!
― emil.y, Thursday, 17 January 2013 04:32 (4 months ago) Permalink
You can only claim it objectifies women if you also concede that Pirahna 3D objectifies women. You might not be wrong.
*steeples fingers*
― attempt to look intentionally nerdy, awkward or (thomp), Thursday, 17 January 2013 07:42 (4 months ago) Permalink
the first dead island was the worst game i played to completion in 2012
― turds (Hungry4Ass), Thursday, 17 January 2013 08:28 (4 months ago) Permalink
― turds (Hungry4Ass), Thursday, 17 January 2013 08:29 (4 months ago) Permalink
kind of lol but mostly sad
― attempt to look intentionally nerdy, awkward or (thomp), Thursday, 17 January 2013 08:46 (4 months ago) Permalink
But I find it disappointing that Deep Silver is caving on this issue for two important reasons. No, not those reasons. I’m going to be mostly serious.
After the jump, two important things. Not the ones you think I’m thinking of.
^^^what a knob
― I had such a fontasy (stevie), Thursday, 17 January 2013 09:30 (4 months ago) Permalink
But did you realize it was also a joke?
shutters fall, new understanding is achieved
― I had such a fontasy (stevie), Thursday, 17 January 2013 09:31 (4 months ago) Permalink
http://gameological.com/2013/01/it-belongs-in-a-museum/
This is probably the best reaction to that thing yet, which talks about it like it was a deliberate piss-take of the worst excesses of early 21st-C vidja game marketing
You could argue that the figure doesn’t deserve consideration as art, because it wasn’t created by an “artist” per se, and Deep Silver didn’t mean to send up the worst impulses of big-budget game studios. But that only makes it better. You’ve heard of outsider art? This is insider art, crafted by forces deep within the beast. The fact that it was meant to showcase the most appealing aspects of Dead Island is the cherry on top of the depravity sundae. It’s rare that we get to bear witness to an expression of awfulness this pure—it’s perfectly ugly. I hope to see it in a museum someday, as a relic of a bygone era.
― "It's the Stay-Puft Marshmallow Drunk!" (kingfish), Friday, 18 January 2013 08:52 (4 months ago) Permalink
that last paragraph you quote especially is tops
― Nhex, Friday, 18 January 2013 14:10 (4 months ago) Permalink
it BELONGS in a MUSEUM
― zero dark (s1ocki), Friday, 18 January 2013 14:57 (4 months ago) Permalink
― fiscal cliff huxtable (latebloomer), Friday, 18 January 2013 20:07 (4 months ago) Permalink
It BELONGS on EBAY
― Emperor Cos Dashit (Adam Bruneau), Friday, 18 January 2013 20:33 (4 months ago) Permalink
― the 'dirty sprite' is implied (forksclovetofu), Saturday, 9 March 2013 20:04 (2 months ago) Permalink
most of the way through this, seems pretty women's studies 101weird that they're not talking about japan v US takes on this stuff tho
― the 'dirty sprite' is implied (forksclovetofu), Saturday, 9 March 2013 20:16 (2 months ago) Permalink
this fucken guy is hysterical
― the 'dirty sprite' is implied (forksclovetofu), Saturday, 9 March 2013 20:28 (2 months ago) Permalink
oh man i need to not look at youtube responses like ever
― the 'dirty sprite' is implied (forksclovetofu), Saturday, 9 March 2013 20:32 (2 months ago) Permalink
argh what a fucknut
"We, the audience, are not allowed to have an opinion, it seems"
Except by, you know, MAKING A RESPONSE VIDEO OF YOUR OPINION, POSTING IT ON YOUTUBE, THEN POSTING A LINK TO IT ON YOUR BLOG.
― Half of these sound like rappers. (snoball), Saturday, 9 March 2013 20:33 (2 months ago) Permalink
dude is very angry that he wasn't offered a chance to express his dissenting opinion, but has assembled a 9-minute video about the video which... does not express a dissenting opinion
I mean I'm sure he has a very cogent and rational counterargument to why this might be a slightly regressive trope, as must all the people going "lol rape" and "lol show tits" under his video, and am very sad that I didn't get to hear it, obv
― susuwatari teenage riot (a passing spacecadet), Saturday, 9 March 2013 21:21 (2 months ago) Permalink
MAKING A RESPONSE VIDEO OF YOUR OPINION, POSTING IT ON YOUTUBE, THEN POSTING A LINK TO IT ON YOUR BLOG.
You forgot "blogging about your opinion, making a response video reading out your blog post, posting it on youtube, then posting a link to it on your blog". Don't forget to put some purchase links for random you-related merchandise in the video description!
― susuwatari teenage riot (a passing spacecadet), Saturday, 9 March 2013 21:23 (2 months ago) Permalink
Yeah her video is pretty damn spot-on, and it's a testament to how big a problem sexism is in the culture that dudes are getting up in arms about something that has nothing to do w the content. That bit about them taking a female-centric game, scratching it, and demoting the lead character to a damsel in a new Starfox is pretty ugh.
― Emperor Cos Dashit (Adam Bruneau), Saturday, 9 March 2013 21:26 (2 months ago) Permalink
that's the guy who did the /v/ga bit on her, right? that was a terrible fake awards show.
― abanana, Saturday, 9 March 2013 21:29 (2 months ago) Permalink
xp Yeah, that was definitely the most interesting bit of the video for me. I've never played any of the Starfox series and don't plan to start, but I'd love to play that original game.
Shigeru Miyamoto is a hero to most but he never meant shit to me so I'm kind of bummed out but she seems to have a reasonable case in calling him out in particular, too ;_;
― susuwatari teenage riot (a passing spacecadet), Saturday, 9 March 2013 21:33 (2 months ago) Permalink
This guy thinks his signature is worth $30 on top of the cost of the $19 for an unsigned copy of his book? Kind of the icing on the 'privileged white male just doesn't get it' cake.
― Half of these sound like rappers. (snoball), Saturday, 9 March 2013 21:34 (2 months ago) Permalink
― Emperor Cos Dashit (Adam Bruneau), Sunday, 10 March 2013 16:33 (2 months ago) Permalink
Awesome
― my god i only have 2 useless beyblade (silby), Sunday, 10 March 2013 17:28 (2 months ago) Permalink
See, I watch that and can only think "why were the second and fourth screens switched?" and "since when can you win the level by coming up to the left of Kong?"
― pplains, Sunday, 10 March 2013 17:38 (2 months ago) Permalink
lol i was thinking the same thing. also, how much i hate Donkey Kong deep down
― Nhex, Sunday, 10 March 2013 21:31 (2 months ago) Permalink
http://www.themarysue.com/pax-tomb-raider-cosplay/
What happens when a game journo dude decided to play the "cosplay is consent" card with a group of Lara Croft cosplayers
Wizemann had been interviewed in the past and said everything seemed normal. That is, until the interviewer asked his first question, “How does it feel to be at a convention where none of the men could please you?”
― Hockey Drunk (kingfish), Thursday, 28 March 2013 17:56 (1 month ago) Permalink
meanwhile at GDC this week, "scantily clad female dancers" at developers association party http://www.polygon.com/2013/3/28/4157266/igda-gdc-party-brenda-romero-resignation
― ( X '____' )/ (zappi), Thursday, 28 March 2013 23:21 (1 month ago) Permalink
these guyz :-( http://yetizen.com/
― s.clover, Friday, 29 March 2013 00:19 (1 month ago) Permalink
good thing they're a strategic keystone with an innovation lab
― my god i only have 2 useless beyblade (silby), Friday, 29 March 2013 00:45 (1 month ago) Permalink
feels like it was only yesterday that "do you come with the car" "OH YOU" banter was pretty much the norm. when did that stop? when E3 was last open to the public?
― Look, Brian, about the afro wig... (forksclovetofu), Friday, 29 March 2013 02:13 (1 month ago) Permalink
i'm pretty sure it's still the norm at these international weapons dealer conferences except it's "do you come with that surface-to-air missile?" and "get out of my dreams and into my amphibious assault humvee"
― Philip Nunez, Friday, 29 March 2013 02:25 (1 month ago) Permalink
flashbacks to
― Hockey Drunk (kingfish), Friday, 29 March 2013 07:59 (1 month ago) Permalink
pretty much the most disheartening week ever for me. this whole thing is just disgusting. meagan is a friend and former colleague and frankly some of the stuff that happened to her was things that happened when i worked with her that i was unaware of. this shit is terrible and i'm not sure it will ever change. a hobby filled with mean, angry little boys. the comments she's been dealing with on her blog and various comments sections and facebook this week have just been unreal, i can't even fathom people anymore.
― ums (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Friday, 29 March 2013 21:37 (1 month ago) Permalink
another blog from these week, more, complicated i guess, and even more depressing, can't even believe some of these stories
http://trixie360.wordpress.com/2013/03/28/sexism-in-games-a-mea-culpa/
― ums (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Friday, 29 March 2013 21:41 (1 month ago) Permalink
but we've all been passively complicit in it, every fucking person in the industry myself included & i don't know where to even begin.
― ums (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Friday, 29 March 2013 21:42 (1 month ago) Permalink
do u know who the journalist is?
― Mordy, Friday, 29 March 2013 21:45 (1 month ago) Permalink
no. i can't really get into specifics but we were involved in the reporting on an incident relayed in her original blog post regarding someone that worked for a publisher.
http://meagan-marie.tumblr.com/post/46396481491/what-would-you-do-if-you-werent-afraid#_=_
― ums (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Friday, 29 March 2013 21:48 (1 month ago) Permalink
i did not attend pax
― ums (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Friday, 29 March 2013 21:49 (1 month ago) Permalink
to my knowledge said person is not employed at that publisher any longer
― ums (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Friday, 29 March 2013 21:50 (1 month ago) Permalink
fwiw, i sub'd to GI for many years bc it was not puerile, sexist, maxim in video game skins like all the other mags. a force for good imho.
― Mordy, Friday, 29 March 2013 21:50 (1 month ago) Permalink
i know you avoid posting on ILG m@tt since it runs a lil too close to your day job but i really appreciate you stopping by here to take a stand on this issue form an industry perspective.
― Look, Brian, about the afro wig... (forksclovetofu), Friday, 29 March 2013 23:20 (1 month ago) Permalink
that trixie360 blog post was good, wish I'd set myself on fire instead of reading the comments though
― susuwatari teenage riot (a passing spacecadet), Saturday, 30 March 2013 01:50 (1 month ago) Permalink
I mean I know this is basically the one constant truth of the internet but there I went
― susuwatari teenage riot (a passing spacecadet), Saturday, 30 March 2013 01:51 (1 month ago) Permalink
i feel like the funny ("funny") thing is that the motives of a lot of (not necessarily "most" but maybe?) people in industries that tend to traffic in casual sexism and even racism aren't taking part in advancing it because they themselves find it "admirable" but because they're cynical and feel like this is just giving the people what they want, and tbh their own careers matter more than mildly suggesting that such elements be toned down. i speak from another perspective in another industry which certainly has people working through the moral quandaries of sexism and the odd bit of winking racism, and unfortunately the ones who runs things immediately-to-far above my standing are the ones who more willingly embrace it.
anyway somewhat off topic.
― christmas candy bar (al leong), Saturday, 30 March 2013 02:15 (1 month ago) Permalink
i'll probably start an ilm thread but fwiw, i am producing this talk regarding (somewhat tangentially, we'll see) sexism in the performing arts programming industry: http://www.housingworks.org/events/detail/noteworthy-a-conversation-with-women-at-the-forefront-of-the-nyc-arts-progr/
― Look, Brian, about the afro wig... (forksclovetofu), Saturday, 30 March 2013 02:20 (1 month ago) Permalink
M@tt, are you going to Pax Prime this year?
― Hockey Drunk (kingfish), Saturday, 30 March 2013 02:44 (1 month ago) Permalink
Nah with a 2yr old I avoid travel if I can, e3 & gamescom for me this year, though I welcome our new once monthly pax convention overlords
― ums (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Monday, 1 April 2013 13:15 (1 month ago) Permalink
But yeah like forks said I don't go to ilg because I'm way too glib & chatty on ilx & I think the only way to be a game journo anymore is to have complete & total paranoia about the internet, but yeah this the treatment of a friend in regards to this stuff was just so gross I had to vent
Bioshock is pretty great tho
― ums (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Monday, 1 April 2013 13:18 (1 month ago) Permalink
is that a new game or something?
― Mordy, Monday, 1 April 2013 14:00 (1 month ago) Permalink
What's Gamescom like?
― Hockey Drunk (kingfish), Monday, 1 April 2013 15:53 (1 month ago) Permalink
www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6gLmcS3-NI
This video showed up in my related videos section. it sucks shit.
― polyphonic, Monday, 1 April 2013 18:05 (1 month ago) Permalink
Sarkeesian is such an easy target for internet trolls. I honestly wish she were a little more challenging and interesting but she's still among the better video game essayists if only due to the low bar.
― I offer about as much diversity as a saltine cracker. (forksclovetofu), Monday, 1 April 2013 18:59 (1 month ago) Permalink
i am somewhat amazed someone made a ten minute video refuting zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
― Nhex, Monday, 1 April 2013 23:49 (1 month ago) Permalink
is casual racism a big issue in games? seems like sexism is a much more pervasive problem. not every game is Mike Tyson's Punch-Out.
― Emperor Cos Dashit (Adam Bruneau), Tuesday, 2 April 2013 15:55 (1 month ago) Permalink
yes
― Nhex, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 15:56 (1 month ago) Permalink
http://kotaku.com/5836692/that-weirdly-racist-npc-in-deus-ex-human-revolution
― ☠ ☃ ☠ (mh), Tuesday, 2 April 2013 15:57 (1 month ago) Permalink
I've never gotten the clammy chill of racism from punch out, at least not to the extent I get from seeing actual boxing.
― Philip Nunez, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 16:09 (1 month ago) Permalink
Because I've not played the game, I don't know (and the article doesn't say) whether there are other black characters in the game, which would seem to make a difference - if she's one of many, and the many don't sound like that, then saying "Surely there won't be anyone that sounds like this in 14 years!" is not in itself a good look.
― Andrew Farrell, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 16:14 (1 month ago) Permalink
Well the title of this thread is that it's more accepted in videogames than in other media. I'm not really seeing that. Feel like for every Deus Ex that gets called out people call out a Transformers.
― Emperor Cos Dashit (Adam Bruneau), Tuesday, 2 April 2013 16:21 (1 month ago) Permalink
Transformers is practically one long videogame cutscene
― Philip Nunez, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 16:24 (1 month ago) Permalink
a good portion of it is the multiplayer/internet culture, but yeah it definitely feels like racism is more normalized in gaming
― Nhex, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 16:34 (1 month ago) Permalink
there's been good writing at kotaku on this issue
― 乒乓, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 16:38 (1 month ago) Permalink
http://kotaku.com/5897227/come-on-video-games-lets-see-some-black-people-im-not-embarrassed-by
― 乒乓, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 16:39 (1 month ago) Permalink
http://kotaku.com/5985340/this-is-how-we-get-more-black-people-in-video-games
― 乒乓, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 16:40 (1 month ago) Permalink
http://kotaku.com/5987766/this-is-why-we-need-more-black-people-making-video-games
― 乒乓, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 17:02 (1 month ago) Permalink
i disagree with the idea that video games need to follow the models of other media to fix racism/sexism since the other media is largely the source.
― Philip Nunez, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 17:15 (1 month ago) Permalink
uh
― the pheromones of hot clothing (DJP), Tuesday, 2 April 2013 17:18 (1 month ago) Permalink
not parsing u philip
― 乒乓, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 17:18 (1 month ago) Permalink
the caricatures come from movies/tv/comic books -- which aren't doing a better job than video games at least on the commercial end.
― Philip Nunez, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 17:21 (1 month ago) Permalink
lol that's a steaming pile
― 乒乓, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 17:24 (1 month ago) Permalink
well, let me walk that back, i still dont understand what exactly youre saying
― 乒乓, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 17:25 (1 month ago) Permalink
...
1) The caricatures come from more than just movies/TV/comic books; they come from music, they come from the stage, they come from historical scientific studies, they come from conventional wisdom, they come from old wives' tales, they come from EVERYWHERE
2) Tyler Perry has built a gigantic media empire off of a series of movies that encompasses a broad spectrum of the African-American experience. There was an entire renaissance of black filmmakers spearheaded by Melvin Van Peebles and continuing on through Spike Lee, the Hudlins, and John Singleton that explored different facets of black experience, to the point where modern movies have a spectrum of black characters to offer consumers, including some caricatures.
2) Ditto with television, where entire networks have dedicated themselves to showing multifaceted black characters (TV One, sometimes BET, OWN, Tyler Perry's terrible TBS show)
3) Comic books have been way out in front of this for a long, long time, stretching back to the introduction of characters like Black Lightning, Black Panther, Luke Cage, Storm and the entire Milestone universe.
Basically you have no idea what you are talking about.
― the pheromones of hot clothing (DJP), Tuesday, 2 April 2013 17:28 (1 month ago) Permalink
well specifically i'm saying tyler perry making video games would be counterproductive (having a milestone comics of videogames i'm less emphatically against, but there's other reasons why i wouldn't be optimistic about it), but i'm also generally against video games looking outward for a corrective in a place that doesn't look much better by comparison and is also the source of a lot of the problems.
― Philip Nunez, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 17:32 (1 month ago) Permalink
so really what you're saying is "I can't read" because no one is actually advocating that Tyler Perry start making videogames
― the pheromones of hot clothing (DJP), Tuesday, 2 April 2013 17:34 (1 month ago) Permalink
philip what it seemed to me that you wre saying is that strategie sthat have been used to pursue diversity/humanizing people of color in other medium (i.e. just introducing enough characters of colors to be able to express a diversity of common, humanistic sentiments) is not valid for video games because the video game industry makes more money nowadays than movies/tv/comics? i really don't understand
― 乒乓, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 17:35 (1 month ago) Permalink
speak for yourself bruh, i'd play a LucasArts-style Why Did I Get Married? xp
― ta-nehisi goatse (fadanuf4erybody), Tuesday, 2 April 2013 17:37 (1 month ago) Permalink
I'd argue that this is functionally equivalent to arguing that Tyler Perry literally make video games. In the very least, Tyler Perry literally making videogames would have answered this call:"I hope it'll be sooner rather than later, but as long as the industry maintains its focus on blockbusters over everything, it'll be a long time coming. Which means that what video games needs is not just Blazing Saddles, but Tyler Perry."
― Philip Nunez, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 17:39 (1 month ago) Permalink
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literal_and_figurative_language
― 乒乓, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 17:40 (1 month ago) Permalink
as I said
― the pheromones of hot clothing (DJP), Tuesday, 2 April 2013 17:41 (1 month ago) Permalink
If you look at "characters like Black Lightning, Black Panther, Luke Cage, Storm and the entire Milestone universe," they aren't marquee characters today, and it's telling when there's such a pent-up need for a Morales Spider-Man that comics have a long way to go in catching up to its audience.
― Philip Nunez, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 17:41 (1 month ago) Permalink
what's your alternative, philip?
― 乒乓, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 17:42 (1 month ago) Permalink
I'm saying that his figurative use has no functional difference in the same way that a figurative Tyler Perry would be just as damaging as a literal Tyler Perry.
re: alternative -- strip away narratives borrowed from other media/genres and concentrate on games as games, which just by that alone will be less racist/sexist.
― Philip Nunez, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 17:44 (1 month ago) Permalink
lol so your answer is that the video games industry should just stick to remaking tetris
― 乒乓, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 17:45 (1 month ago) Permalink
tetris is probably racist against slavs
― my god i only have 2 useless beyblade (silby), Tuesday, 2 April 2013 17:46 (1 month ago) Permalink
what does concentrating on 'games as games' mean. are you saying video games should be 'colorblind.'
― 乒乓, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 17:47 (1 month ago) Permalink
think he wants to shut down the whole avenue of narrative and hyperreal game design just so there won't be any humanoids to put racisms on
― my god i only have 2 useless beyblade (silby), Tuesday, 2 April 2013 17:48 (1 month ago) Permalink
won't stop people who play in arcade fighter tournaments from shouting "rape" and "nigger" though!
― my god i only have 2 useless beyblade (silby), Tuesday, 2 April 2013 17:49 (1 month ago) Permalink
um
― 乒乓, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 17:50 (1 month ago) Permalink
i'm saying games ought to refrain from drawing in narratives obv. modeled after other media around it. If it does this, it would at least avoid the racist/sexist and all other baggage as a minimum.
― Philip Nunez, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 17:51 (1 month ago) Permalink
xp sorry dayo I was trying to jocularly make a point about the audience being as much of a source of the problem itt as the creators
― my god i only have 2 useless beyblade (silby), Tuesday, 2 April 2013 17:51 (1 month ago) Permalink
i mean games ought to do this anyway as a means of growth for the medium as a whole. the whole not bringing in 100 years of problematic culture in is a bonus.
― Philip Nunez, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 17:52 (1 month ago) Permalink
this reminds me, I need to get onto marketing my new competitive fighting game Niggerrape
at least then the catcalls will be game-appropriate
I am going to now go off and do some massive penance for that joke
― the pheromones of hot clothing (DJP), Tuesday, 2 April 2013 17:52 (1 month ago) Permalink
hehe "massive penance"
― my god i only have 2 useless beyblade (silby), Tuesday, 2 April 2013 17:53 (1 month ago) Permalink
so philip, getting rid of RPGs would be a good first step right?
― 乒乓, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 17:55 (1 month ago) Permalink
narrative is not something that's self-contained in literature/film/comics/tv, narrative is human experience related. you're being willfully naive here philip
― 乒乓, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 17:56 (1 month ago) Permalink
unless your answer to reducing sexism/racism in video games is to make 100 more angry birds
― 乒乓, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 17:57 (1 month ago) Permalink
RPGs are pretty broad but yeah Gygaxian RPGs don't really make sense on a video game platform.I'd argue that in its purest form, video game narratives are incidental, rather than tacked on.I'm in favor of games ditching its macho posturing audience as well (which i think is going to happen anyway with casual gaming)
and yes angry birds is a step in the right direction. next step will be slightly peeved birds, then indifferent birds.
― Philip Nunez, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 17:58 (1 month ago) Permalink
ok now your arguments have now literally detached you from earth you are floating into space goodbye it was nice to know you
― 乒乓, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 17:59 (1 month ago) Permalink
the video games industry should just stick to remaking tetris
this is an acceptable solution imo
― Reggie (Lamp), Tuesday, 2 April 2013 18:00 (1 month ago) Permalink
narrative and worldbuilding are incidental in video games. that's why halo slash fiction literally doesn't exist. nobody on this planet except for maybe 3 people total have ever cosplayed. people only care about how fast their ping times are and whether or not they can pull off a 45-hit combo in marvel v. capcom 2.
― 乒乓, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 18:02 (1 month ago) Permalink
i've seen sexist tetris though -- though i'd argue that's again borrowing from pinball cheesecake.
― Philip Nunez, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 18:03 (1 month ago) Permalink
I would be down w more abstract and non-figurative games.
― Emperor Cos Dashit (Adam Bruneau), Tuesday, 2 April 2013 18:08 (1 month ago) Permalink
https://itunes.apple.com/us/genre/ios-games/id6014?mt=8
― 乒乓, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 18:09 (1 month ago) Permalink
Don't have an iphone. Let's see EA spend tens of millions of dollars on an abstract game and I'll be there.
― Emperor Cos Dashit (Adam Bruneau), Tuesday, 2 April 2013 18:10 (1 month ago) Permalink
The top 10 retail video games in the United States in 2012:1. Call of Duty: Black Ops II (360, PS3, PC, Wii U)2. Madden NFL 13 (360, PS3, Wii, PSV, Wii U)3. Halo 4 (360)4. Assassin's Creed III (360, PS3, PC, Wii U)5. Just Dance 4 (Wii, 360, Wii U, PS3)6. NBA 2K13 (360, PS3, Wii, PSP, Wii U, PC)7. Borderlands 2 (360, PS3, PC)8. Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 3 (360, PS3, Wii, PC)9. Lego Batman 2: DC Super Heroes (Wii, 360, NDS, PS3, 3DS, PSV, PC10. FIFA Soccer 13 (360, PS3, Wii, PSV, 3DS, Wii U, PSP)(Source: The NPD Group)
1. Call of Duty: Black Ops II (360, PS3, PC, Wii U)2. Madden NFL 13 (360, PS3, Wii, PSV, Wii U)3. Halo 4 (360)4. Assassin's Creed III (360, PS3, PC, Wii U)5. Just Dance 4 (Wii, 360, Wii U, PS3)6. NBA 2K13 (360, PS3, Wii, PSP, Wii U, PC)7. Borderlands 2 (360, PS3, PC)8. Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 3 (360, PS3, Wii, PC)9. Lego Batman 2: DC Super Heroes (Wii, 360, NDS, PS3, 3DS, PSV, PC10. FIFA Soccer 13 (360, PS3, Wii, PSV, 3DS, Wii U, PSP)(Source: The NPD Group)
clearly abstract/non-figurative games do great
― 乒乓, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 18:11 (1 month ago) Permalink
Clearly alot of people paid to see Transformers.
― Emperor Cos Dashit (Adam Bruneau), Tuesday, 2 April 2013 18:14 (1 month ago) Permalink
what is this transformers argument
― 乒乓, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 18:15 (1 month ago) Permalink
Dollars earned != good content
― Emperor Cos Dashit (Adam Bruneau), Tuesday, 2 April 2013 18:29 (1 month ago) Permalink
lol so your answer to addressing issues of sexism/racism in the video game industry today is to plug your ears and play tetris... cool
― 乒乓, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 18:31 (1 month ago) Permalink
I'm glad you wrote it out for me.
― Emperor Cos Dashit (Adam Bruneau), Tuesday, 2 April 2013 18:33 (1 month ago) Permalink
Dollars earned = good business, which is the argument being floated to move against changing the narratives to have broader/more realistic minority characters
you guys are engaging in the most shameless "have your cake and eat it too" argument
also Closure is awesome re: abstract games; it's not even clear that the protagonist has a gender
― the pheromones of hot clothing (DJP), Tuesday, 2 April 2013 18:33 (1 month ago) Permalink
Even if video games were purely a reflection of other aspects of culture, having a disproportionate number of them reflecting the most regressive parts of culture probably isn't desirable.
― ☠ ☃ ☠ (mh), Tuesday, 2 April 2013 18:34 (1 month ago) Permalink
That list is why there aren't more games with female protagonists or protagonists of color.
Also it is a list entirely populated by sequels.
― polyphonic, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 18:34 (1 month ago) Permalink
I mean, unless you only watch movies with guns, tits, and gangsters
oh god I've described half the audience for the top ten games listed
― ☠ ☃ ☠ (mh), Tuesday, 2 April 2013 18:35 (1 month ago) Permalink
pretty sure there are people of color in Just Dance 4 #naturalrhythm
also lol at looking at a list that contains basketball, football and soccer games and having the first reaction be "why all the white people?"
― the pheromones of hot clothing (DJP), Tuesday, 2 April 2013 18:37 (1 month ago) Permalink
lol
― 乒乓, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 18:38 (1 month ago) Permalink
that's the first reaction because "acting ethnic" in a video game involves funny accents or stereotyped characters and basketball players in games don't talk, iirc
― ☠ ☃ ☠ (mh), Tuesday, 2 April 2013 18:41 (1 month ago) Permalink
like, god forbid there be characters who are boring, normal people who are not white
― ☠ ☃ ☠ (mh), Tuesday, 2 April 2013 18:42 (1 month ago) Permalink
my point in posting that list was that fully half of that list is dominated by narrative-driven gamers that heavily depend on worldbuilding to achieve their success, to spell it out
― 乒乓, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 18:43 (1 month ago) Permalink
narrative worldbuilding and killing stuff
― ☠ ☃ ☠ (mh), Tuesday, 2 April 2013 18:43 (1 month ago) Permalink
Haha somehow I looked past all the non-narrative games on the list since they basically do not involve characterization, but this is a fair point.
― polyphonic, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 18:50 (1 month ago) Permalink
putting aside the "macho posturing" of that list, is Assassin's Creed III the only one in that top 10 to have a protagonist of color?
― ta-nehisi goatse (fadanuf4erybody), Tuesday, 2 April 2013 18:56 (1 month ago) Permalink
xp My NBA2K13 MyCareer player "Mr. Clutch" would have to disagree with you, then slam his teammates at a press conference
― Nhex, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 18:57 (1 month ago) Permalink
Why is the top 10 list of games entering this conversation? Most of those don't really prove anyone's points
which btw are super clear
everyone's points, i mean
― I've Seen rRootage (Will M.), Tuesday, 2 April 2013 19:02 (1 month ago) Permalink
Dollars earned = good business, which is the argument being floated to move against changing the narratives to have broader/more realistic minority charactersyou guys are engaging in the most shameless "have your cake and eat it too" argument
― Nhex, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 19:07 (1 month ago) Permalink
narrative is certainly self-contained in movies w/r/t video games when it is being advanced by cut-scenes, for example. Most games you can pretty much pick apart in this way leaving very little narrative left to call its own.
― Philip Nunez, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 19:17 (1 month ago) Permalink
i make all my characters black gay women in the character creator so i have multiple tiers of roleplaying going on do u c
― I offer about as much diversity as a saltine cracker. (forksclovetofu), Tuesday, 2 April 2013 21:01 (1 month ago) Permalink
― 乒乓, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 21:03 (1 month ago) Permalink
on an unrelated note, I'm going to be thinking through my ideas a few times before typing them into ilx for a while
― I, rrational (mh), Tuesday, 2 April 2013 21:08 (1 month ago) Permalink
― Philip Nunez, Tuesday, April 2, 2013 3:17 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark
this is both true and completely immaterial to this discussion
― zero dark (s1ocki), Tuesday, 2 April 2013 21:12 (1 month ago) Permalink
it's material in that within these often ham-fisted attempts at appropriating cinematic narratives into video games that sexism/racism come along for the ride, though apparently that arkham game decided to one-up its source material? lego batman seemed alright though.
― Philip Nunez, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 21:20 (1 month ago) Permalink
appropriating cinematic narratives into video games
Games with linear plots or parallel linear missions that later reconcile to an endgame, which possibly has variations, are not necessarily comparable to cinema to a greater degree than they are to anything else! I mean, we aren't saying that books are sexist, so you can't blame video games based on books for being sexist. The idea that any particular medium can't determine it's own path because it's just a shadow of something else is stupid.
― I, rrational (mh), Tuesday, 2 April 2013 21:25 (1 month ago) Permalink
Would you agree that it's harder to forge your own path and escape a set of cultural and commercial expectations when it is under the shadow of that other thing, though?
― Philip Nunez, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 21:27 (1 month ago) Permalink
no, because you are still within the culture that has all of the baggage
― the pheromones of hot clothing (DJP), Tuesday, 2 April 2013 21:28 (1 month ago) Permalink
Video games aren't under the shadow of anything, any more than movies are in the shadow of the written word
― I, rrational (mh), Tuesday, 2 April 2013 21:28 (1 month ago) Permalink
Man I am so sad that Ms. Pac-Man was an inferior game and was not at all successful
― I, rrational (mh), Tuesday, 2 April 2013 21:30 (1 month ago) Permalink
I think I just backslid on my idea to prethink my comments, but I will not back down on my support of Ms. Pac-Man.
― I, rrational (mh), Tuesday, 2 April 2013 21:31 (1 month ago) Permalink
Ms Pac-Man is clearly the best of the Pac-Man games
― the pheromones of hot clothing (DJP), Tuesday, 2 April 2013 21:32 (1 month ago) Permalink
Yes!
― I, rrational (mh), Tuesday, 2 April 2013 21:34 (1 month ago) Permalink
"Pacman displays all the patho-obsessive characteristics that are the special achievement of the first generation peasant. Pacman does not live, he survives. Pacman does not know the freedom and enjoyment of the drift; he is locked in a Malthusian trap without cheat codes, doomed to struggle ad infinitum to overcome his hunger in the knowledge that the next meal will be even harder to acquire. To eat more is to be chased with added vengeance.
For the ghosts work does not exist, their quest to find Pacman and eat him is purely recreational. Failure is without consequence, the drift is theirs and their collective wandering strategies are an inspiration to every algorithmic psychogeographer. Their scatter-chase-repeat routine is a wonder in itself but their swagger in blue mode, when suddenly they are prey and may be eaten by their dinner, is the unchallenged masterpiece in the arsenal of experimental walking techniques. Again the ghosts do not encounter real harm when devoured, rebirth comes as a guarantee. The ghost in blue mode is in trickster mode, they are urging Pacman to eat the freaky corner fruits out of self-interest but also out of benevolence.
Blinky, Pinky, Inky and Clyde are not attacking Pacman, evil is not a useful concept in their carefree existence. They are the Magister Ludi's of crazy cookie land, enticing the pupil to work harder and to move further, to new level-environments. It is not necessary to eat, it is necessary to travel."
― ogmor, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 21:39 (1 month ago) Permalink
I don't buy that games would necessarily be coarsened by the outside culture to the same extent without the prevailing influence of movies/tv/comics etc...
These are the top selling board games, for example:http://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-Toys-Games-Board/zgbs/toys-and-games/166225011
So board games aren't immune to the kind of licensing/genre nonsense that dominate video games but just looking at it, it looks like they do a much better job at making board games qua board games at least on the top-seller level. (the kotaku list for best board games looked very different!)
confession: my favorite board game was the one based on pacman where you'd collect marbles in this pacman approximation that the designers solved the axis-orientation problem by having him eat through an orifice in its butt.
― Philip Nunez, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 21:46 (1 month ago) Permalink
http://cardsagainsthumanity.com/
― 乒乓, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 21:59 (1 month ago) Permalink
To be fair, Cards Against Humanity's offensiveness is anything but casual.
― I, rrational (mh), Tuesday, 2 April 2013 22:02 (1 month ago) Permalink
Would you agree that it's harder to forge your own path and escape a set of cultural and commercial expectations when it is under the shadow of that other thing, though?― Philip Nunez, Tuesday, April 2, 2013 5:27 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalinkno, because you are still within the culture that has all of the baggage― the pheromones of hot clothing (DJP), Tuesday, April 2, 2013 5:28 PM (59 minutes ago) Bookmark
― Philip Nunez, Tuesday, April 2, 2013 5:27 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― the pheromones of hot clothing (DJP), Tuesday, April 2, 2013 5:28 PM (59 minutes ago) Bookmark
just gonna quote this response again, because it is otm
― 乒乓, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 22:28 (1 month ago) Permalink
i'm with you guys on the inception matroska-ing of cultural shackles but to say they're equivalent or have the same influence at each layer...
― Philip Nunez, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 22:39 (1 month ago) Permalink
Not really wanting to jump into this debate, but I thought this was pretty OTM:
it's material in that within these often ham-fisted attempts at appropriating cinematic narratives into video games that sexism/racism come along for the ride
― schwantz, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 22:41 (1 month ago) Permalink
Counter-example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_or_Alive_(series)
― schwantz, Tuesday, 2 April 2013 22:42 (1 month ago) Permalink
FWIW, I basically am in line with DJP's take here but sort of buy into Philip's initial statement, which I read not as ''games shouldn't borrow from cinema or comics'' as ''games shouldn't borrow from trash cinema and trash comics,'' which I think they kind of do, a lot. Superhero books have come a long way and there are a lot of talented creators consciously trying to fight the tide, but the tide is still there. I've read more stuff about gender biases (the way star artists are permitted/encouraged to draw women's bodies, the women in refrigerators issue, tokenism of female membership on superteams, the sheer numbers of men vs women working in the industry etc.) but I doubt the industry/community would do well on race either, see for example the shocking fan resistance to the idea of a non-white Spiderman in either comics or movies.
Again, there's been tons of progress! The internet brings out the worst in fandom but it also means there's been a visible push-back against all of this stuff. I would like to believe that today's male white geek is a little more self-aware than his equivalent twenty years ago, and that non-white non-male geeks find more material that doesn't alienate them. But there's still so much in geek-genre comics that should wither and die there rather than remain a continuing source of video game material. I'm sure that's true of other media as well but I do think comics are relatively speaking, behind the curve, if not AS behind as games.
(Outside superheroes it's another rodeo entirely. Would love to see a Dykes To Watch Out For game!)
― Doctor Casino, Wednesday, 3 April 2013 12:54 (1 month ago) Permalink
(Catching up on those Kotaku links presently - good stuff, thanks.)
― Doctor Casino, Wednesday, 3 April 2013 12:58 (1 month ago) Permalink
I think drawing off of trash cinema or comics is fine! It's just not the only thing that should get made.
― I, rrational (mh), Wednesday, 3 April 2013 17:50 (1 month ago) Permalink
I like trash, too! but better a game with original pooping mechanics than a boring adaptation of "pink flamingos"
― Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 3 April 2013 18:02 (1 month ago) Permalink
answer to casual racism/sexism in gamse: develop original pooping mechanic
― 乒乓, Wednesday, 3 April 2013 18:04 (1 month ago) Permalink
so I guess they were on the right track here: oh no! SPANKING VIDEO GAME! oh no!
just didn't go far enough
― the pheromones of hot clothing (DJP), Wednesday, 3 April 2013 18:09 (1 month ago) Permalink
pii-u!
― Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 3 April 2013 18:11 (1 month ago) Permalink
Holding out for the licensed Halle Berry ice-cream simulator, myself.
― Doctor Casino, Wednesday, 3 April 2013 18:32 (1 month ago) Permalink
dying
― the pheromones of hot clothing (DJP), Wednesday, 3 April 2013 18:41 (1 month ago) Permalink
http://borderhouseblog.com/?p=10567
― s.clover, Thursday, 4 April 2013 01:18 (1 month ago) Permalink
no info available on the validity of the survey, whether it represents readers of the magazine or the industry at large, sampling methods etc. It's likely there's some kind of gender gap in salaries but this doesn't tell us anything likely to be useful or accurate.
― my god i only have 2 useless beyblade (silby), Thursday, 4 April 2013 02:54 (1 month ago) Permalink
you know i think i have needed a new screen name for a while, kinda tired of asking ppl to deindex
bbiab thread
― I've Seen rRootage (Will M.), Thursday, 4 April 2013 03:20 (1 month ago) Permalink
i know that it's anecdotal but i have seen sort-of what would explain those numbers maybe. aside from the (very few) women i've known in places i've worked never ever ever ever ask for as much money as they're worth (there was this one place where my team of 6 had 2 women, and they were probably hour-for-hour the most valuable people on the team, myself included, and both were the lowest paid, bc the dudes came in puffed up w self-confidence). but also the wage gap is probably caused by the fact that females don't survive, because no matter how much the workplaces try to be inviting and equal, at the end of the day there are a bunch of dudes who work in games. And most of them are ok. But a few of them are creepy. And some of them are downright scary.
i am in a position of very very limited power (imagine the bottom of the food chain -- now imagine the person who writes plans for the bottom of the food chain -- there I am!) at a company that has it as part of their mandate to be inclusive and fair and inviting to everyone. And for the most part they're amazing about it. Far better than some places that I think I've complained about on previous threads (one place in particular where someone I know had his hours cut for COMPLAINING ABOUT SEEING HARASSMENT AT THE WORKPLACE) (and no it wasn't a white knight type thing, he was actually really really uncomfortable). But there's still sketchy shit. Casual homophobic, sexist shit gets said on the floor. I try to call people on it -- in fact, I've gotten kind of scary about it before -- but i'm getting fatigued. and i'm the only one calling people on it (in fact on a team of 11, i'd say 1 (me) actively discourages that kind of talking, 2 others dislike it but don't speak up, 1 more is maybe coming around on being a human being, and the other 7 just don't think there's anything wrong w/ the way we/they/everyone talks at the workplace).
this is kinda off topic bc this thread is about the content of games i guess, but since we're kinda talking abt the workplace i figured it was time to fucking complain
― Video Games, Thursday, 4 April 2013 12:27 (1 month ago) Permalink
great that this display name was available also
I find that all quite germane! First of all, that climate matters and is important to the lives of people working in, near, or approaching the industry. Second, it'd be hard to argue that this wouldn't in some way impact game content, probably by quite a lot. What seems like a good idea or a well-rounded character or a funny joke in such a narrow environment with so mnay voices squeezed out, may prove to be...not so much when the game hits the streets. Or rather, it resonates with the marketplace which has itself squeezed out a lot of those same groups of people...self-fulfilling cycle.
― Doctor Casino, Thursday, 4 April 2013 13:36 (1 month ago) Permalink
Yeah you don't need to play more than about 5 minutes of something like borderlands 2 to realise that either there were no women at all on that team, or the women there had zero power.
― JimD, Thursday, 4 April 2013 15:05 (1 month ago) Permalink
(I'm only picking on borderlands because it's the latest in a very long line of games I've felt embarrassed to play in front of my girlfriend).
― JimD, Thursday, 4 April 2013 15:06 (1 month ago) Permalink
I remember seeing the end credits of Saints Row 3, where they have a crew photo slideshow, and being genuinely surprised that there were any women involved in making the game. There were maybe 3 out of 100? TBF that game is quite totally shameless about everything, not just its rampant sexism
― Nhex, Thursday, 4 April 2013 15:10 (1 month ago) Permalink
Aubrey Norris @Chupacaubrey 28 MarDo you love zombies?? Do you hate nudity??? Enter the @threadless design contest for @deadislandgame & win prizes! http://www.threadless.com/deadisland/ Promoted by Aubrey Norris
Do you love zombies?? Do you hate nudity??? Enter the @threadless design contest for @deadislandgame & win prizes! http://www.threadless.com/deadisland/ Promoted by Aubrey Norris
Chewing through someone's skull is okay as long as they are wearing clothes.
― Emperor Cos Dashit (Adam Bruneau), Thursday, 4 April 2013 16:14 (1 month ago) Permalink
what a vile culture of spoiled stupid little boys
― ums (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Thursday, 4 April 2013 20:17 (1 month ago) Permalink
what the fuck? Kill all involved.
― EZ Snappin, Thursday, 4 April 2013 20:24 (1 month ago) Permalink
what in the hell. how does that have a budget? how does that get made? who's sitting around writing that crap and narrating it and doing the titles and....christ
― Doctor Casino, Thursday, 4 April 2013 20:49 (1 month ago) Permalink
i'm afraid to ask, but what was that? the video went private
― Nhex, Thursday, 4 April 2013 21:28 (1 month ago) Permalink
a Machinima.com "show" called Spanks & Shreds or something like that where model were dressed up as "rock chicks" and then spanked as they played Rock Band
― ums (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Friday, 5 April 2013 18:53 (1 month ago) Permalink
Yeah, the preview image is still up, vid is down. I wonder how long before a copy pops up
― Hockey Drunk (kingfish), Saturday, 6 April 2013 20:32 (1 month ago) Permalink
youtube keeps "recommending for me" horrible anti-Sarkeesian videos with annoying names like "Feminism vs FACTS" and it's bumming me out to see them in my sidebar (also bummed out by whatever part of youtube's algorithm thinks I actually like these things) (Google does think I'm a guy apparently but I hope it's not showing these to everyone male because that would be even more depressing than being singled out for them)
so yeah, I probably shouldn't have clicked on that Spanks vid, it'll be another tick in the giant database of how much I love to watch creepy woman-hating gaming-related videos
― susuwatari teenage riot (a passing spacecadet), Saturday, 6 April 2013 21:00 (1 month ago) Permalink
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/04/06/misogyny-sexism-and-why-rps-isnt-shutting-up/
― relentless technosexuality (DJP), Saturday, 6 April 2013 21:19 (1 month ago) Permalink
good article, I think? maybe a bit self-congratulatory in places but I guess the urge to say that is just the same as all those asshats shouting "white knight" so eh
btw recent internet shitstorms have shown me that my tomboyish childhood and my subsequent life as a computer geek are not the result of heroically rejecting male privilege so much as buying fully into male privilege with me as honorary male (itself a privilege of having comfortably-off scientist parents), rejecting womanly things as degrading
was gonna say more but it's tl;dr and off-topic since I'm not a games programmer, just a dumb database monkey who first learnt a smattering of bad programming because I liked games, and now two decades later I'm still on the bottom rung of a career I was never any good at but I never noticed because boys didn't talk to me (I can't be bad at programming - nobody else I know even does this stuff!)
(There's another woman programmer in my office. Are we teaming up to further the cause of women in technology? Hell no. We are competing for who can be more manlike, who can wring more pats on the head from the real men who do the "real work" and get the real recognition; both just trying to pretend we aren't women, that gender rules don't have to apply to us, but not making the same exception for the other. We're not helping anyone and I'm tired. Sorry for off-topic.)
― susuwatari teenage riot (a passing spacecadet), Saturday, 6 April 2013 22:24 (1 month ago) Permalink
do you want to make a game? this looked cool (though it is for flash) flixel.org
― Philip Nunez, Saturday, 6 April 2013 22:37 (1 month ago) Permalink
that does look cool! tbh the ideas are missing as much as the programming talent and/or patience, but I still like to think one day the stars might align enough to knock out some crappy puzzle game, at least...
― susuwatari teenage riot (a passing spacecadet), Saturday, 6 April 2013 22:44 (1 month ago) Permalink
i read that article thinking that these were the tiniest of baby steps to explaining privilege, but it sadly is pretty warranted given the audience. it's still pretty sad how many comments (even on RPS' forum, since he turned off the comments for that post) are still hopelessly blind, feminism is evil, etc. eukaryotes, indeed
― Nhex, Sunday, 7 April 2013 01:04 (1 month ago) Permalink
Kind of odd to start off an article like that with this image^. But yay let's fight sexism.
― Emperor Cos Dashit (Adam Bruneau), Monday, 8 April 2013 16:35 (1 month ago) Permalink
what's the gender makeup of RPS like?
― Philip Nunez, Monday, 8 April 2013 16:39 (1 month ago) Permalink
the readership or the writer/editors?
― attempt to look intentionally nerdy, awkward or (thomp), Monday, 8 April 2013 17:25 (1 month ago) Permalink
founded by four dudes, one of the dudes was replaced and then he was replaced. occasional features by women (notably, recently, the interview with the tomb raider writer), also i think the indie games column is written by a trans* woman
― attempt to look intentionally nerdy, awkward or (thomp), Monday, 8 April 2013 17:31 (1 month ago) Permalink
oh if it's only four people i'm not sure there's a lot they could do staff-wise.
― Philip Nunez, Monday, 8 April 2013 17:37 (1 month ago) Permalink
RPS seems aimed at an older audience though, my disappointment was that the responses were no better than you'd see on Kotaku, Reddit etc. crapping on John Walker for laboring the obvious. But not so much because it was obvious, but because they are in reality, unradical sewer mutants. Sad lol at "you're silencing the debate!"-type responses to him closing off the article comments, even with him addressing that very issue
I forget the name of the game with that ridiculous Amazon, but I think it comes out pretty soon so I guess it's somewhat relevant
― Nhex, Monday, 8 April 2013 18:08 (1 month ago) Permalink
site's audience != site's commenters tbf
― attempt to look intentionally nerdy, awkward or (thomp), Monday, 8 April 2013 18:53 (1 month ago) Permalink
They reckon about 1-2% comment. And as always it's not even a majority of the commenters that are terrible, just that the bad ones are like dragging a comb through your brain every time you read their megaparagraphs of MRA nonsense.
― Andrew Farrell, Monday, 8 April 2013 19:28 (1 month ago) Permalink
http://www.abc.net.au/arts/stories/s3733057.htm
― 乒乓, Tuesday, 9 April 2013 19:01 (1 month ago) Permalink
Nice article. A harsh assessment - anyone who's played through B:I want to chime in?
― Nhex, Tuesday, 9 April 2013 19:09 (1 month ago) Permalink
Errant Signal also has a good new video about this. It does seem pretty weak, though I don't really recall B:I being promoted as an intelligent piece of art any more than a cool steampunk game.
― Emperor Cos Dashit (Adam Bruneau), Tuesday, 9 April 2013 19:10 (1 month ago) Permalink
They've definitely talked it up as such, at least to the gaming press. The article does some justice to their attempt. However, the ubiquitous TV ads definitely go in the direction of steampunky manshoot.
― Nhex, Tuesday, 9 April 2013 19:25 (1 month ago) Permalink
I haven't gotten far in the game but far enough to see the "throw the ball" section he mentions in that article as well as the "history exhibit" section... a few people i have spoken to are all losing their minds over this game for being clever and arty of course (these are the people who thought the same thing of the first game though which is just o_O to me).
thing is i am not sure i would put these comments in the "casual racism" thread because it doesn't feel racist so much as it just feels profoundly fucking stupid (and maybe kind of irresponsible in its stupidity) -- imo mr. golding hits the nail on the head.
― I've Seen rRootage (Will M.), Tuesday, 9 April 2013 21:22 (1 month ago) Permalink
ehhh it's not great but i would rather have a video game that acknowledged ugly parts of american history, even in a glib facile way, than not. baby steps yall.
― adam, Tuesday, 9 April 2013 21:35 (1 month ago) Permalink
i wish yoshi's island acknowledged the ugly parts of american history
― zero dark (s1ocki), Tuesday, 9 April 2013 21:40 (1 month ago) Permalink
definitely some robber-baron critique going on with wario
― Philip Nunez, Tuesday, 9 April 2013 21:43 (1 month ago) Permalink
wario is a hurtful stereotype, probably. i'm not italian so
― adam, Tuesday, 9 April 2013 21:53 (1 month ago) Permalink
an australian video game criticism article was more effective at making me interested in an american history thing/what that american history thing means than the game it's criticizing did. tbf i'm non-american... but still.
honestly though this is less about the acceptance of racism/sexism in games tho and more about BI not being very good at being a mature story or w/e
― I've Seen rRootage (Will M.), Wednesday, 10 April 2013 02:43 (1 month ago) Permalink
I think you're right about that, tho the whole rickety crashing end to the story really is fun. Except for all the press f to trigger next cutscene approach
― adam, Wednesday, 10 April 2013 03:01 (1 month ago) Permalink
wint@dril"Is Wario A Libertarian" - the greatest thread in the history of forums, locked by a moderator after 12,239 pages of heated debate,
― 乒乓, Wednesday, 10 April 2013 03:02 (1 month ago) Permalink
― I've Seen rRootage (Will M.), Tuesday, April 9, 2013 10:43 PM (27 minutes ago) Bookmark
the casual use of the history of oppressed peoples to make your video game have ~moral heft~ is probably the exact kind of casual racism that fits within the ambit of this thread
nb i havent played BI
― 乒乓, Wednesday, 10 April 2013 03:12 (1 month ago) Permalink
i meant that my comment was about above, not the conversation at large
― I've Seen rRootage (Will M.), Wednesday, 10 April 2013 04:21 (1 month ago) Permalink
http://theyreallsobeautiful.com/interview-with-evan-narcisse/
― 乒乓, Sunday, 21 April 2013 13:34 (1 month ago) Permalink
THE HENRYI am a: hairy Asian muscle panda
― H-E-double-s1ockisticks (forksclovetofu), Sunday, 21 April 2013 21:37 (1 month ago) Permalink
that was new to me too
― Nhex, Sunday, 21 April 2013 22:16 (1 month ago) Permalink
what do you have against it xp
― 乒乓, Sunday, 21 April 2013 22:58 (1 month ago) Permalink
just that it sounds like the kinda thing that would be racist if it was engendered outside the community? and it's not really clear that it was? like is a black bear a... well i dunno, a black bear?
― brb buying poppers w/my employee discount (forksclovetofu), Sunday, 21 April 2013 23:12 (1 month ago) Permalink
this is outside my ambit but as far as im concerned a gay asian dude can call himself whatever hte fuck he wants
― 乒乓, Sunday, 21 April 2013 23:20 (1 month ago) Permalink
not arguing that fact, you asked what i had against it
― brb buying poppers w/my employee discount (forksclovetofu), Sunday, 21 April 2013 23:21 (1 month ago) Permalink
what im asking is, what puts you in a position to judge?
― 乒乓, Sunday, 21 April 2013 23:22 (1 month ago) Permalink
hooboy, not going down that road with you dude. are you genuinely offended/surprised that i wrote "seriously?" on the internet at a first exposure to the idea of a gay asian subgroup called "pandas"?
― brb buying poppers w/my employee discount (forksclovetofu), Sunday, 21 April 2013 23:54 (1 month ago) Permalink
the whole subgroup may just be THE HENRY for all i know o'course
― brb buying poppers w/my employee discount (forksclovetofu), Sunday, 21 April 2013 23:58 (1 month ago) Permalink
seriously thought forks wrote endangered outside the community and thought he was taking this all way too literally
― puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Monday, 22 April 2013 00:00 (1 month ago) Permalink
― brb buying poppers w/my employee discount (forksclovetofu), Monday, 22 April 2013 00:07 (1 month ago) Permalink
― brb buying poppers w/my employee discount (forksclovetofu), Sunday, April 21, 2013 7:54 PM (13 minutes ago) Bookmark
i'm just wondering what made u decide to share ur opinion about this topic that u have a lot of experience with
― 乒乓, Monday, 22 April 2013 00:08 (1 month ago) Permalink
^solitary posts, etci decided to share my opinion precisely BECAUSE i have no experience with it and was hoping one of ilx's many all-purpose mavens would step up and let me know "yes this is a thing, here's some background *let me google that for you*" or alternately "i am a large gay asian man and ime this dude is on some ish that's just his own thing". of course, this being ilx, i am being capn-save-a-panda'd
― brb buying poppers w/my employee discount (forksclovetofu), Monday, 22 April 2013 00:14 (1 month ago) Permalink
i'll take it that u acted in good faith, but u couldn't have phrased it in a better way??
― 乒乓, Monday, 22 April 2013 00:16 (1 month ago) Permalink
iirc i actually typed "are asian bears seriously called pandas?" and then realised that i was inviting a zing
― brb buying poppers w/my employee discount (forksclovetofu), Monday, 22 April 2013 00:18 (1 month ago) Permalink
― 乒乓, Sunday, April 21, 2013 7:22 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark
uhh judging owns
― turds (Hungry4Ass), Monday, 22 April 2013 00:46 (1 month ago) Permalink
stfu
Actual pandas are not even bears, which makes this more confusing
― Dr. Adorbius (mh), Monday, 22 April 2013 03:32 (1 month ago) Permalink
Red pandas, I mean. Which I think means they're communist
― Dr. Adorbius (mh), Monday, 22 April 2013 03:33 (1 month ago) Permalink
Or native American.
― how's life, Monday, 22 April 2013 10:29 (1 month ago) Permalink
who judges the judges?
― Emperor Cos Dashit (Adam Bruneau), Monday, 22 April 2013 14:55 (1 month ago) Permalink
the Supreme Court?
― we're up all night to get picky (Noodle Vague), Monday, 22 April 2013 14:55 (1 month ago) Permalink
reread thread, guess i can see where "Seriously?" could be read as a guffaw, hope it's clear twas not meant as such
― brb buying poppers w/my employee discount (forksclovetofu), Monday, 22 April 2013 15:10 (1 month ago) Permalink
so there's some stupid fucking anime game (dragon's crown) (this is all i know about it) with big tittied ladies and people are mad about it, which is fine, and the penny arcade asshole weighs in:
It’s very weird to pull up a story about a game with frankly visionary art and hear why it shouldn’t exist, or to hear what I supposedly fantasize about, or what kind of power I supposedly revere, and any attempt to defend oneself from these psychotic projections or to assert that creators may create is evidence of a dark seed sprouting in the heart. It’s an incredible state of affairs. They’re not censors, though - oh, no no. You’ll understand it eventually; what you need to do is censor yourself.
i just... hate this guy. this like george will smugness. it enrages me.
― adam, Wednesday, 24 April 2013 18:20 (4 weeks ago) Permalink
why am i even posting about penny arcade. we all know.
― adam, Wednesday, 24 April 2013 18:21 (4 weeks ago) Permalink
did this go unmentioned at the time? just started playing saboteur. the free-with-purchase dlc adds... tits.
― goole, Wednesday, 24 April 2013 18:24 (4 weeks ago) Permalink
afaict it adds no 'real' game content, but makes all the burlesque showgirls topless. jfc.
― goole, Wednesday, 24 April 2013 18:25 (4 weeks ago) Permalink
yo is that game any good? i got it for like a dollar but haven't even booted it up
― adam, Wednesday, 24 April 2013 18:29 (4 weeks ago) Permalink
concept, variety of activity, mission design (so far): good!story, v/o, etc: average-to-poor. depends on your tolerance for one euro accent after another.visuals, gameplay: average for 09, pretty dated now
― goole, Wednesday, 24 April 2013 18:36 (4 weeks ago) Permalink
goole that is terrible but I can't stop laughing
― Call me at **BITCOIN (DJP), Wednesday, 24 April 2013 18:36 (4 weeks ago) Permalink
http://www.joystiq.com/2009/12/03/the-saboteur-day-one-dlc-unlocks-nudity-self-loathing/
sorry, it also adds "new Parisian hiding spots, [and] a new minigame"
― goole, Wednesday, 24 April 2013 18:37 (4 weeks ago) Permalink
there are lots of good reasons to hate oneself, but pixelated titties? eh
― Nhex, Wednesday, 24 April 2013 19:40 (4 weeks ago) Permalink
are the new parisian hiding spots in breasts?
― brb buying poppers w/my employee discount (forksclovetofu), Wednesday, 24 April 2013 22:12 (4 weeks ago) Permalink
no, those are exposed
― Call me at **BITCOIN (DJP), Wednesday, 24 April 2013 22:13 (4 weeks ago) Permalink
"dragon's crown" is pretty bad as far as the fantasy title stakes go
― the bitcoin comic (thomp), Wednesday, 24 April 2013 22:42 (4 weeks ago) Permalink
i keep trying to think of a similarly useless (fantasy noun + possessive marker + fantasy noun) name but they all end up making more sense. chimeara's sword. orc's ring. goblin's robes. wtf does a dragon even want a crown for. mb he is ruling over other dragons, nm, is there a kingdom of dragons in this game, that could rule
someone posted some of the concept art upthread but it's been occluded by the whole panda thing
― the bitcoin comic (thomp), Wednesday, 24 April 2013 22:44 (4 weeks ago) Permalink
i like vanillaware generally
― brb buying poppers w/my employee discount (forksclovetofu), Wednesday, 24 April 2013 22:45 (4 weeks ago) Permalink
― the bitcoin comic (thomp), Wednesday, 24 April 2013 22:48 (4 weeks ago) Permalink
generally
― brb buying poppers w/my employee discount (forksclovetofu), Wednesday, 24 April 2013 22:53 (4 weeks ago) Permalink
i mean it looks like a fun game?
did they run this feature before or after guy put his foot in his mouth i wonder
http://penny-arcade.com/report/article/you-dont-like-breasts-you-must-like-men-the-disappointing-conversation-and
― the bitcoin comic (thomp), Wednesday, 24 April 2013 22:54 (4 weeks ago) Permalink
dont read the comments dont read the comments why do i always read the comments
― brb buying poppers w/my employee discount (forksclovetofu), Wednesday, 24 April 2013 22:58 (4 weeks ago) Permalink
so for a game that does not come out for three months there is a hell of a lot of porn of this
― the bitcoin comic (thomp), Wednesday, 24 April 2013 23:01 (4 weeks ago) Permalink
... that walking gif looks kinda great actually
― Nhex, Wednesday, 24 April 2013 23:29 (4 weeks ago) Permalink
The hell is going on with the lumpy, horse-shaped amazon lady with a tiny head in that PA article thom posted? wtffff.
― It is like ganging up on Enya (Trayce), Thursday, 25 April 2013 01:02 (4 weeks ago) Permalink
Coming this fall: R. Dragon's Crumb
― Doctor Casino, Thursday, 25 April 2013 01:06 (4 weeks ago) Permalink
ha, exactly!
― Nhex, Thursday, 25 April 2013 01:46 (4 weeks ago) Permalink
i mean, i imagine an adventurer would get to have some pretty major thighs going on at some point. it's kind of funny kind of sad that the artist decided to exaggerate that to the level of fetish also?
― the bitcoin comic (thomp), Thursday, 25 April 2013 01:56 (4 weeks ago) Permalink
horsey
― mh, Thursday, 25 April 2013 01:57 (4 weeks ago) Permalink
"Let's step back from the social justice aspect of this kind of artwork and deal with the fact that 9 year-old girls find it stupid. I'd love for her to see games and want to be these women, not simply recoil at the fact that they're designed for my eyes more than her power fantasies."
Wtf, this is exactly what the social justice aspect is!
― Andrew Farrell, Thursday, 25 April 2013 07:37 (4 weeks ago) Permalink
it is and it isn't.
― the bitcoin comic (thomp), Thursday, 25 April 2013 17:39 (4 weeks ago) Permalink
i. i think this is a good case for why 'casual racism and sexism are more accepted in video games than other media' is a bad way of phrasing the argument vs. something like 'more visible in video games than other media'. -- like, having sexed-up fantasy figures turned up to such a ridic degree makes it more obvious and undeniable that something's going on, that there is a problem here that needs addressing.
ii. kind of sad compared to previous form; a couple gay girls i know thought odin sphere was really amazing w/ the fairy princess types just whaling on guys and beating the shit out of them
iii. huh, i wanna play odin sphere
― the bitcoin comic (thomp), Thursday, 25 April 2013 17:47 (4 weeks ago) Permalink
its on psn
― brb buying poppers w/my employee discount (forksclovetofu), Thursday, 25 April 2013 17:50 (4 weeks ago) Permalink
i got it on sale on PSN a few weeks ago, been meaning to crack it
― Nhex, Thursday, 25 April 2013 18:05 (4 weeks ago) Permalink
― turds (Hungry4Ass), Thursday, 25 April 2013 22:29 (4 weeks ago) Permalink
weirdly into that
― resulting paste of mashed cheez poops (silby), Thursday, 25 April 2013 22:30 (4 weeks ago) Permalink
Reminding me weirdly of some awesome Greek mythology picture books I devoured as a kid.
― Doctor Casino, Friday, 26 April 2013 03:34 (3 weeks ago) Permalink
Somehow more erotic than his woman pics
― mh, Friday, 26 April 2013 04:06 (3 weeks ago) Permalink
This guy really might have a future in dude-on-dude art
None of them looks mysteriously like a horse
― mh, Friday, 26 April 2013 04:07 (3 weeks ago) Permalink
i would play a game like that, maybe based on the three kingdoms
― 乒乓, Friday, 26 April 2013 11:51 (3 weeks ago) Permalink
that is making me nostalgic for Dragon Force
― Call me at **BITCOIN (DJP), Friday, 26 April 2013 13:41 (3 weeks ago) Permalink
wm blake + zangief + bear porn
― goole, Friday, 26 April 2013 15:22 (3 weeks ago) Permalink
zangief and bear porn are kind of the same already i guess
yup
― Nhex, Friday, 26 April 2013 15:53 (3 weeks ago) Permalink
Odin Sphere I managed to snag used at a late lamented Hollywood Video at the end of the PS2. It's worth playing.
― Hockey Drunk (kingfish), Saturday, 27 April 2013 02:35 (3 weeks ago) Permalink