I know there are a million P4K threads, but this is quite a nice idea they've concoted in terms of giving people a pleasant, simple interface and display to choose favourite albums, and I thought it'd be nice for people who've put one together to share it.
Here's mine. http://peopleslist.pitchfork.com/list/733d2938/
― Sick Mouthy (Scik Mouthy), Friday, 17 August 2012 07:38 (9 months ago) Permalink
Mines is here;
http://peopleslist.pitchfork.com/list/733d2938/
Unfortunately all my records and CD’s have been in storage for the past 3 months while I’m moving house so my end list is probably drawn more from the Pitchfork suggestions than it would have been if I’d have had access to my collection to look through.
― AnotherDeadHero, Friday, 17 August 2012 08:23 (9 months ago) Permalink
Yeah, our collection has been boxed up fro a fortnight - handily I had my Stylus Decade ballot list to consult, which covers a big chunk of the same time. Fear there may be late 90s stuff that fell through the cracks, though.
― Sick Mouthy (Scik Mouthy), Friday, 17 August 2012 08:26 (9 months ago) Permalink
Pretty much every other list I saw reminded me of things I probably should’ve included but by that point I didn’t have the energy to keep on making changes and just went with what I had originally.
I’ve seen lots of complaints about the formatting on Twitter but personally I was well impressed it.
― AnotherDeadHero, Friday, 17 August 2012 08:30 (9 months ago) Permalink
- A lot of albums I thought would have existed on their database don't. - It's hard for me to think of my favourite albums - This is making me realise just how long ago 1996 was.
― Yes please, I'll have a pint, and another one for this asshole here (dog latin), Friday, 17 August 2012 08:34 (9 months ago) Permalink
Mine is here:https://peopleslist.pitchfork.com/list/7549df59/
Order gets increasingly meaningless. As usual
― Mercer Finn, Friday, 17 August 2012 08:36 (9 months ago) Permalink
Another Dead Hero - your list is the same as Nick's!
― Yes please, I'll have a pint, and another one for this asshole here (dog latin), Friday, 17 August 2012 08:40 (9 months ago) Permalink
- A lot of albums I thought would have existed on their database don't.
LOL the first FIVE albums I looked for don't exist
what a redundant, repugnant website pitchfork is
― lex pretend, Friday, 17 August 2012 08:45 (9 months ago) Permalink
Ah, copy and paste error.
Here's mines for real like.
http://peopleslist.pitchfork.com/list/413a0bed/
― AnotherDeadHero, Friday, 17 August 2012 08:46 (9 months ago) Permalink
A lot of albums I thought would have existed on their database don't.LOL the first FIVE albums I looked for don't existwhat a redundant, repugnant website pitchfork is― lex pretend, Friday, 17 August 2012 09:45 (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― lex pretend, Friday, 17 August 2012 09:45 (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
Do you have an RSS Feed that shows up every time the word Pitchfork is mentioned so you can turn up and say something generic about it?
― Yes please, I'll have a pint, and another one for this asshole here (dog latin), Friday, 17 August 2012 08:49 (9 months ago) Permalink
They didn't have Hello Nasty, Dopethrone, Blur or LP5 - but they did have lots of other albums by those acts but not these major ones.
― Yes please, I'll have a pint, and another one for this asshole here (dog latin), Friday, 17 August 2012 08:51 (9 months ago) Permalink
you realise theres an 'add album' button
― just sayin, Friday, 17 August 2012 08:52 (9 months ago) Permalink
yeah, i'm not sure i trust it.
― Yes please, I'll have a pint, and another one for this asshole here (dog latin), Friday, 17 August 2012 09:04 (9 months ago) Permalink
Mercer Finn, I had completely forgotten about 'Run The Road' and how much I used to love it. Will now dig it out and give it a spin :)
― pandemic, Friday, 17 August 2012 09:17 (9 months ago) Permalink
I added loads - any without a cover on my list were added by me.
― Sick Mouthy (Scik Mouthy), Friday, 17 August 2012 09:21 (9 months ago) Permalink
Can you add a picture if you add your own?
― coal, Friday, 17 August 2012 09:34 (9 months ago) Permalink
I've not seen a way to do so yet but I didn't really look.
― Sick Mouthy (Scik Mouthy), Friday, 17 August 2012 09:42 (9 months ago) Permalink
can you add 12"s or do they have to be cds
― coal, Friday, 17 August 2012 10:16 (9 months ago) Permalink
Mmm lists.
http://peopleslist.pitchfork.com/list/304752b7/
― Kitchen Person, Friday, 17 August 2012 10:16 (9 months ago) Permalink
― lex pretend
Yet you still tried to play along and make your own list.
― Kitchen Person, Friday, 17 August 2012 10:18 (9 months ago) Permalink
Pretty sure the database is comprised of those records Pfork have reviewed, so no great surprise that lots of stuff is missing. Therefore it seems a bit silly to complain about it, when you can enter details of missing albums yourself. Or, y'know, just not bother.
― Arvo Pärt Chimp (Neil S), Friday, 17 August 2012 10:22 (9 months ago) Permalink
fwiw i didn't bother
the procrastination impulse can only take one so far
― lex pretend, Friday, 17 August 2012 10:30 (9 months ago) Permalink
im going to try add a 12" and a picture will let you know how i get on wish me luck
― coal, Friday, 17 August 2012 10:31 (9 months ago) Permalink
you can add what you like it doesnt have to be an album or even a record
but you can't add a pic
― coal, Friday, 17 August 2012 10:38 (9 months ago) Permalink
Here's mine so far. WTF am I missing though? http://peopleslist.pitchfork.com/list/d173f3ce/
― Yes please, I'll have a pint, and another one for this asshole here (dog latin), Friday, 17 August 2012 10:39 (9 months ago) Permalink
http://peopleslist.pitchfork.com/list/46674527/
― Tim F, Friday, 17 August 2012 10:40 (9 months ago) Permalink
Is there any kind of check? Like, can you add records that don't actually exist?
(don't give me terrible, terrible ideas.)
― Shepton Mullet (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Friday, 17 August 2012 10:41 (9 months ago) Permalink
yeah you can add whatever you like pretty much
― Arvo Pärt Chimp (Neil S), Friday, 17 August 2012 10:44 (9 months ago) Permalink
(In another lifetime I'd have posted 20 fake Shimuras records just to troll the thing, but I am so much more grown up now. Honest.)
― Shepton Mullet (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Friday, 17 August 2012 10:47 (9 months ago) Permalink
1. Denny Vertigo - Hanging On The Edge2. Denny Lethargy - Can't Be Arsed
― Colonel Poo, Friday, 17 August 2012 10:48 (9 months ago) Permalink
I'm conflicted I don't really like record sleeves but the ones with no picture just look wrong going to have to pass on the whole thing
― coal, Friday, 17 August 2012 10:51 (9 months ago) Permalink
Wasn't going to bother with this but, eh, then I did:http://peopleslist.pitchfork.com/list/16b8d1d5/
― Cong rat ululations (seandalai), Friday, 17 August 2012 10:59 (9 months ago) Permalink
Hmmm, didn't think to add In Sides by Orbital; it was early 96 and I kind of think of it as being pre-P4K.
― Sick Mouthy (Scik Mouthy), Friday, 17 August 2012 11:00 (9 months ago) Permalink
yeah, i added it after seeing tim's list.
― Yes please, I'll have a pint, and another one for this asshole here (dog latin), Friday, 17 August 2012 11:04 (9 months ago) Permalink
Finished it for now http://peopleslist.pitchfork.com/list/d173f3ce/
― Yes please, I'll have a pint, and another one for this asshole here (dog latin), Friday, 17 August 2012 11:07 (9 months ago) Permalink
they really should have used someone else's database. I guess they wanted to discourage people from adding too much non-Pitchforky stuff though
― Number None, Friday, 17 August 2012 11:11 (9 months ago) Permalink
Well it is an exercise in brand reinforcement, pretty much. I think it's a great step to allow people to add their own albums; what'd be even better is if they had someone trawling the database for added albums and consolidating them into proper entries.
― Sick Mouthy (Scik Mouthy), Friday, 17 August 2012 11:19 (9 months ago) Permalink
Quite fun, this.
http://peopleslist.pitchfork.com/list/c0498b19/
― Gavin, Leeds, Friday, 17 August 2012 11:59 (9 months ago) Permalink
ok i have to say i really like how nike and adh's list have a 'sound' to them. when i make a list it will be all over the shop, whereas i feel i could make a playlist of their choices and learn something about a type of music i kinda half like/am half interested in. this thread could work wonders for me.
― a hoy hoy, Friday, 17 August 2012 12:21 (9 months ago) Permalink
It was easy to add albums -- their catalog is deep -- but the "edit" function hasn't worked so far. It says "Loading" forever. Any cures?
― a regina spektor is haunting europe (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 17 August 2012 12:27 (9 months ago) Permalink
No clue how to help you Alfred. Seemed pretty fast for me.
My list, with the top pretty set and the rest based mainly on a list from a few years ago:
http://peopleslist.pitchfork.com/list/01bce74f/
― EZ Snappin, Friday, 17 August 2012 12:33 (9 months ago) Permalink
I like Tim's list a lot - gutted I forgot about Platinum Breakz!
― Gavin, Leeds, Friday, 17 August 2012 12:40 (9 months ago) Permalink
This is fun!
http://peopleslist.pitchfork.com/list/090a03f3/
Even tho it's so new, gonna rep hard for DJ Rashad... and gotta have those Sparks records in there. What an Indian Summer they've had.
― mr.raffles, Friday, 17 August 2012 12:47 (9 months ago) Permalink
Nice to see "The Drift" turnin up on lists. What an album.
― mr.raffles, Friday, 17 August 2012 12:48 (9 months ago) Permalink
it's supposed to be to 2011 !
― ogmor, Friday, 17 August 2012 12:54 (9 months ago) Permalink
oh drat!
― mr.raffles, Friday, 17 August 2012 12:57 (9 months ago) Permalink
this is actually a lot of fun. I have liberal anxiety & aging-dude sadness that there's no rap in my top 25 tho :(
― steven fucking tyler (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Friday, 17 August 2012 13:03 (9 months ago) Permalink
My list!
http://peopleslist.pitchfork.com/list/188fd797/
The top twenty more or less accurately reflects the last thirteen years.
― a regina spektor is haunting europe (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 17 August 2012 13:08 (9 months ago) Permalink
The Drift and Discovery'll do well if ILX has anything to do with it.
― Yes please, I'll have a pint, and another one for this asshole here (dog latin), Friday, 17 August 2012 13:08 (9 months ago) Permalink
Argh shit Fugazi!
― Sick Mouthy (Scik Mouthy), Friday, 17 August 2012 13:09 (9 months ago) Permalink
haha, now Tom and Alfred are tied on my "Pitchfork People's List Game."
― Shepton Mullet (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Friday, 17 August 2012 13:12 (9 months ago) Permalink
Where's Tom's?
― Tim F, Friday, 17 August 2012 13:13 (9 months ago) Permalink
Oh, he posted it on Twitter this morning.
― Shepton Mullet (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Friday, 17 August 2012 13:14 (9 months ago) Permalink
― Yes please, I'll have a pint, and another one for this asshole here (dog latin), Friday, August 17, 2012 9:08 AM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
And "White Bread, Black Beer," it seems.
Nice to see "Oceans Apart" poppin up too!
― mr.raffles, Friday, 17 August 2012 13:15 (9 months ago) Permalink
Apart from the distinct lack of Yorke, there's a lot to love on Tom E's list
http://peopleslist.pitchfork.com/list/2eecd8bc/
― Shepton Mullet (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Friday, 17 August 2012 13:17 (9 months ago) Permalink
(Apologies if he didn't want that posted here, but I did enjoy reading it this morning.)
― Shepton Mullet (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Friday, 17 August 2012 13:18 (9 months ago) Permalink
Radiohead barely sneaked into mine.
― a regina spektor is haunting europe (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 17 August 2012 13:21 (9 months ago) Permalink
What's the game then?
― Tim F, Friday, 17 August 2012 13:25 (9 months ago) Permalink
Radiohead were on mine originally but fell off as i remembered other stuff i listen to more that I'd forgotten to include.
I'd probably put the solo Yorke album on before a ~Radiohead album~ at number 100 just to be ornery.
It would just take me too long. And my list would be too all over the place and "Sugababes! School of Seven Bells! Ellen Allien! Missy E!" maybe I'll give it a try later tonight.
― Shepton Mullet (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Friday, 17 August 2012 13:26 (9 months ago) Permalink
yeah i want to know what the game is too.
i'm terrified i've missed something off mine. it's funny when i do lists like this because around the 30-50 mark I start thinking "There must be at least some other OUTSTANDING albums I can think of from the last 15 years" but no, it's like your Facebook friendslist, you might have 600 of them, but only about 10 you might consider to be true friends.
― Julian Asshole (dog latin), Friday, 17 August 2012 13:28 (9 months ago) Permalink
You lot have known me for 12 years and you can't figure out what the game is?
― Shepton Mullet (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Friday, 17 August 2012 13:30 (9 months ago) Permalink
I think OK Computer would probably be top 10 in any list I put together but any other Radiohead is unlikely. It feels really weird to be comparing anything that old to, say, the Katy B album and putting them in the same list.
― Matt DC, Friday, 17 August 2012 13:31 (9 months ago) Permalink
Yeah, I mean Katy B is so obviously completely superior it would be an insult to her to stick something as stale as OK Computer next to her.
― Shepton Mullet (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Friday, 17 August 2012 13:32 (9 months ago) Permalink
Also there's like four albums from 1996 that I'd put in there but that might has well be prehistoric.
― Matt DC, Friday, 17 August 2012 13:33 (9 months ago) Permalink
It does. I can appreciate an "albums of all time" type thing, but these are records that came out within my lifetime. That said I had very different tastes in 1996 as I did in 2004 as I do now, and trying to work out where Pearl Jam's Yield fits in compared to Nicolas Jaar is just o_O
― Julian Asshole (dog latin), Friday, 17 August 2012 13:40 (9 months ago) Permalink
Just put'em side by side.
― a regina spektor is haunting europe (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 17 August 2012 13:42 (9 months ago) Permalink
1996 stuff like Reasonable Doubt and ATLiens is missing from the list but it's probably because p4k didn't review that kind of thing back then
― Listen to this, dad (President Keyes), Friday, 17 August 2012 13:43 (9 months ago) Permalink
I was just about to post my list and then I refreshed this thread.
― Melissa W, Friday, 17 August 2012 13:44 (9 months ago) Permalink
Just given mine another edit after reminding myself of some more stuff via old lists. The sins of fading memory.
― Sick Mouthy (Scik Mouthy), Friday, 17 August 2012 13:45 (9 months ago) Permalink
I am having big cognitive dissonance putting late 90s favourites on a list with stuff from last year. The world is different. I am different. Magical World of The Strands!
― Sick Mouthy (Scik Mouthy), Friday, 17 August 2012 13:46 (9 months ago) Permalink
In Rainbows has totally cemented itself as my favourite Radiohead over the last 2 years.
i can't find my old lists/ballots for some reason
― Julian Asshole (dog latin), Friday, 17 August 2012 13:48 (9 months ago) Permalink
The past does not exist.
― Shepton Mullet (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Friday, 17 August 2012 13:48 (9 months ago) Permalink
It's a different country.
― Sick Mouthy (Scik Mouthy), Friday, 17 August 2012 13:50 (9 months ago) Permalink
if i have to look something up then it isn't a current fav
― coal, Friday, 17 August 2012 13:52 (9 months ago) Permalink
This isn't saying "what are your ten favourite records right now" though, it's asking what are your 100 from the last 16 years... I'm vaguely trying to weight long-term affection alongside 'just this minute' excitement.
― Sick Mouthy (Scik Mouthy), Friday, 17 August 2012 13:54 (9 months ago) Permalink
it isn't what are you fav records right now that were released in the last 16 years?
― coal, Friday, 17 August 2012 13:56 (9 months ago) Permalink
i have to make a composite of me at different stages of my life?
― coal, Friday, 17 August 2012 13:57 (9 months ago) Permalink
if i liked something a lot for 18 months in 2006 but don't like now, what percentage weighting should that be given?
― coal, Friday, 17 August 2012 13:58 (9 months ago) Permalink
i mean, ok, it was closer to 2 years than 18 months but do i really want to admit that
.345
― Listen to this, dad (President Keyes), Friday, 17 August 2012 13:59 (9 months ago) Permalink
Here's my list. So many missing album covers...
http://peopleslist.pitchfork.com/list/3122a1e0
― Tuomas, Friday, 17 August 2012 14:01 (9 months ago) Permalink
I don't even want to ~know~ what 1996 me would want to put on this list.
(Apart from Kenickie but I'd probably still agree with her on that.)
― Shepton Mullet (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Friday, 17 August 2012 14:01 (9 months ago) Permalink
i make it .09375
― coal, Friday, 17 August 2012 14:01 (9 months ago) Permalink
One thing that surprised me about my own list was the relative lack of capital-P Pop albums.
I mean I love 'Blackout' and 'Chemistry' and 'The Fame Monster' and 'Robyn' and so on and so forth but somehow none cracked top 100. The closest was Sugababes' 'Three' which like two dozen albums it saddened me to leave off.
― Tim F, Friday, 17 August 2012 14:02 (9 months ago) Permalink
tho that presumes all months or years are equal this stuff is tough!
― coal, Friday, 17 August 2012 14:02 (9 months ago) Permalink
You use whatever internal algorithm you like, coal.
― Sick Mouthy (Scik Mouthy), Friday, 17 August 2012 14:03 (9 months ago) Permalink
Tuomas comes in second in my game. (Alfred and Tom still tied for winning.)
― Shepton Mullet (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Friday, 17 August 2012 14:03 (9 months ago) Permalink
Capital-P Pop albums, in my mind, burn brightly and then fade quickly; that's part of their appeal. There are loads of albums by the likes of Timberlake, Sugababes, Missy, Neptunes, etc etc, that I loved at the time and still have favourite songs from, but which I never go back to "as an album" and take in the whole thing; consequently pretty much none of them are on my list. Whether that speaks to anything about me, or whether it speaks to anything about the nature of art and personal canons and musical longevity, is a thing people have been trying to unravel for aeons. But I don't go back to that second Sugababes album anymore than I go back to World Clique by Deee-Lite, even if each album has individual song/s I will love forever on it.
― Sick Mouthy (Scik Mouthy), Friday, 17 August 2012 14:06 (9 months ago) Permalink
I included no album on which I didn't love without reservations at least six tracks.
― a regina spektor is haunting europe (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 17 August 2012 14:07 (9 months ago) Permalink
― Sick Mouthy (Scik Mouthy), Friday, 17 August 2012
i can just choose my fav records right now?
― coal, Friday, 17 August 2012 14:07 (9 months ago) Permalink
yes!
― a regina spektor is haunting europe (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 17 August 2012 14:08 (9 months ago) Permalink
If that's what suits you best, dude. I've liked to be reminded of old favourites I'd forgotten.
― Sick Mouthy (Scik Mouthy), Friday, 17 August 2012 14:08 (9 months ago) Permalink
Submitted for your approval, my list. Dig it, people.
http://peopleslist.pitchfork.com/list/139d3ab8/
― kornrulez6969, Friday, 17 August 2012 14:11 (9 months ago) Permalink
I don't think that's just a facet of Capital-P Pop albums. There's a lot of Capital-R Rock albums which I was obsessed with in the late 90s which I have no urge to revisit more than 1 track off. And listening to Miss E So Addictive the other day, which you dismiss as a one-song Pop album, listening to that all of a piece for the poll the other day, it stood up as a work a lot more than I think you give it credit for.
― Shepton Mullet (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Friday, 17 August 2012 14:11 (9 months ago) Permalink
every time I almost surrender to making one of these I see a bunch of squares with pitchfork logos in them and can't work up the energy to sign on with facebook.
― da croupier, Friday, 17 August 2012 14:13 (9 months ago) Permalink
ok i am making what looks like it could be a massive spotify playlist of things on ppls lists that interest me/ive never heard of before etc.
first can i say wow In Sides is incredible, ty Nick for having this so high up yr list. where has this record been all my life?
― a hoy hoy, Friday, 17 August 2012 14:13 (9 months ago) Permalink
xpost to Nick It's not that for me I think - and anyways there was heaps of R&B on my list (Missy and Kelis and Aaliyah and The-Dream and really Timberlake is in the category and so on).
If I had to guess I'd say it's that I'm so wired to receive Pop on a singles basis that even when you get these really solid and/or ambitious albums I don't end up connecting with them that way emotionally... e.g. ironically (given it's the kind of reaction one typically reserves for difficult rock canon albums) 'Chemistry' is an album I probably respect more than I listen to.
Even though I listen to 'Whole Lotta History' and 'Long Hot Summer' and (especially) b-side 'Singapore' a fair amount.
― Tim F, Friday, 17 August 2012 14:13 (9 months ago) Permalink
I'd love a glenn mcdonald style stats breakdown for similarity between lists etc.
― Tim F, Friday, 17 August 2012 14:14 (9 months ago) Permalink
You think anyone really listens to any tracks off e.g. Urban Hymns except the singles any more?
― Shepton Mullet (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Friday, 17 August 2012 14:15 (9 months ago) Permalink
I heard the whole fucking thing in the pub the other night. Interminable.
― Matt DC, Friday, 17 August 2012 14:16 (9 months ago) Permalink
xpost Yeah but the difference is that 'Urban Hymns' isn't even a great album (obv 'A Storm In Heaven' is amazing).
― Tim F, Friday, 17 August 2012 14:17 (9 months ago) Permalink
Obv Storm in Heaven >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Urban Hymns but the latter is the one that tends to turn up on "greatest albums of the 90s" lists.
― Shepton Mullet (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Friday, 17 August 2012 14:18 (9 months ago) Permalink
The Verve are weird because they were so obviously and consciously going for instant canonisation around 1997 and people were on board with that but they just sort of faded and there was so little excitement around their reunion compared to, well, nearly every other big Britpop-era reunion.
― Matt DC, Friday, 17 August 2012 14:20 (9 months ago) Permalink
I guess a lot of those big tentpole rock albums aren't on my list either.
― Sick Mouthy (Scik Mouthy), Friday, 17 August 2012 14:22 (9 months ago) Permalink
I've never heard a whole Verve album.
― Julian Asshole (dog latin), Friday, 17 August 2012 14:23 (9 months ago) Permalink
I agree So Addictive hangs together; it's on my list - Under Construction is the one I thing of as Work It + Gossip Folks + some other stuff I don't really care about.
― Sick Mouthy (Scik Mouthy), Friday, 17 August 2012 14:23 (9 months ago) Permalink
You're lucky, DL.
Bits of A Northern Soul still do it for me. The really fucking harsh bits.
http://peopleslist.pitchfork.com/list/c1289cbf/
Pretend I never posted this.
― Melissa W, Friday, 17 August 2012 14:24 (9 months ago) Permalink
I ended up leaving off Under Construction just b/c 4 Missy albums seemed excessive but actually it's very strong throughout I reckon - esp. 'Bring The Pain' and 'Play That Beat'.
― Tim F, Friday, 17 August 2012 14:25 (9 months ago) Permalink
I like how you couldn't put TKOL in the top 10 but couldn't bear to leave it out. ;-) x-post
― Shepton Mullet (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Friday, 17 August 2012 14:26 (9 months ago) Permalink
^^^ I at least 'quite like' most of that list with the exception of Joanna Newsom, a lot of it is really great. (xpost)
― Matt DC, Friday, 17 August 2012 14:26 (9 months ago) Permalink
xpost Love how Melissa's list is basically a very ILM list with the entire recorded work of Radiohead and bandmembers dropped at the beginning.
― Tim F, Friday, 17 August 2012 14:27 (9 months ago) Permalink
This is Not a Test! made my list
― a regina spektor is haunting europe (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 17 August 2012 14:27 (9 months ago) Permalink
I don't want to be "that privacy guy" but what access exactly would I be giving it to my Google/FB account? Why can't I just make a list?
― Guayaquil (eephus!), Friday, 17 August 2012 14:27 (9 months ago) Permalink
Heard a bit of Sonnet the other day and it was still fucking horrible.
I should probably revisit the Missy albums. I think I kind of took the best of as an end point with regards looking back at the albums.
― Sick Mouthy (Scik Mouthy), Friday, 17 August 2012 14:28 (9 months ago) Permalink
man I'm listening to the '08 CeCe Winans record that came in at #18 in mine - it's been a while. So fucking great.
― steven fucking tyler (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Friday, 17 August 2012 14:28 (9 months ago) Permalink
― a regina spektor is haunting europe (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, August 17, 2012 2:27 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
yeah but you already know this is fucked up.
― Tim F, Friday, 17 August 2012 14:28 (9 months ago) Permalink
The access thing is presumably mainly about ease of accessing the system, rather than making everyone make yet another account that needs another username and password just for one tiny system. I've give it Twitter access; there's no 'data' in that account other than my tweets (and geolocation when I make them, I guess).
― Sick Mouthy (Scik Mouthy), Friday, 17 August 2012 14:29 (9 months ago) Permalink
noticing Rounds by Four Tet on a lot of these ilm lists so far. was always more into the last record.
― a hoy hoy, Friday, 17 August 2012 14:29 (9 months ago) Permalink
It asked for fewer permissions than standard apps do, really commendable imo
― steven fucking tyler (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Friday, 17 August 2012 14:31 (9 months ago) Permalink
It and SDF are the only ones that work as albums imo.
― a regina spektor is haunting europe (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 17 August 2012 14:31 (9 months ago) Permalink
I much prefer the last record. Have you heard the Ringer EP?
Can't believe you've not heard In Sides before! Do you know other Orbital?
― Sick Mouthy (Scik Mouthy), Friday, 17 August 2012 14:31 (9 months ago) Permalink
What does 'work as an album' mean?
I know that's a fucking horrible question to ask on a friday afternoon in the middle of a thread.
― Sick Mouthy (Scik Mouthy), Friday, 17 August 2012 14:32 (9 months ago) Permalink
I was going to try to lie and space them all out for cool points, but I went with honesty instead.
― Melissa W, Friday, 17 August 2012 14:33 (9 months ago) Permalink
I skip hardly any tracks; it's got a gestalt.
xpost
― a regina spektor is haunting europe (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 17 August 2012 14:33 (9 months ago) Permalink
Fave Missy is def "Da Real World." Kinda seemed like she could do anything at that point.Better singles later on, for sure... but the next two didn't connect for me, as albums.
"This Is Not a Test" was neat though. Fun (sometimes) hearing Tim flailing around for a new sound in that couple years before Danja got him (commercially) back on track.
― mr.raffles, Friday, 17 August 2012 14:33 (9 months ago) Permalink
I don't even think I've listened to enough music to do one of these things.
I mean, obviously I've listened to quite a bit. But I've wasted so much time on albums that do nothing for me any more. And then I look at a list like Melissa's, and I have to google half the people in the post-RH bit (not a dis in any way) and I just think "man, I've heard nothing."
― Shepton Mullet (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Friday, 17 August 2012 14:35 (9 months ago) Permalink
No! I think I may have heard... something in passing before to actually sit down and listen to Orbital this seems like the first time. It really is blowing my mind :D If I wasn't already half busy flicking through these lists/spotify/supposedly job hunting/making arrangements with friends, i'd be picking through an old orbital thread right now.
― a hoy hoy, Friday, 17 August 2012 14:36 (9 months ago) Permalink
How am I doing in your game, btw? x-post
― Melissa W, Friday, 17 August 2012 14:36 (9 months ago) Permalink
So great: Love vs Money beside Stop Your Nonsense in Tom E's list.
Yeah, our collection has been boxed up fro a fortnight - handily I had my Stylus Decade ballot list to consult, which covers a big chunk of the same time. Fear there may be late 90s stuff that fell through the cracks, though.― Sick Mouthy (Scik Mouthy), Friday, August 17, 2012 4:26 AM (6 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― Sick Mouthy (Scik Mouthy), Friday, August 17, 2012 4:26 AM (6 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
Like Amelia?
― Andy K, Friday, 17 August 2012 14:38 (9 months ago) Permalink
Man, you need Snivilisation and Brown and Middle of Nowhere.
― Sick Mouthy (Scik Mouthy), Friday, 17 August 2012 14:38 (9 months ago) Permalink
AMELIA!!!!! FUCK!!!!
― Sick Mouthy (Scik Mouthy), Friday, 17 August 2012 14:39 (9 months ago) Permalink
OMG yes 'Amelia'! (though even more so for Nick haha)
I would like to add Position Normal to my list as well, somehow. It's all so hard.
― Tim F, Friday, 17 August 2012 14:40 (9 months ago) Permalink
Nick you can go back and edit them though you know.
You came in 4th, Melissa!
― Shepton Mullet (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Friday, 17 August 2012 14:40 (9 months ago) Permalink
Another edit done...
― Sick Mouthy (Scik Mouthy), Friday, 17 August 2012 14:40 (9 months ago) Permalink
Oh I'm going back every 30 minutes, Tim!
Loving KitchenPerson's list. Also it reminded me I need Muddy Waters on mine.
― a hoy hoy, Friday, 17 August 2012 14:42 (9 months ago) Permalink
When I was doing the list I considered 'Cassidy' but it didn't quite make the cut, but I simply forgot about 'Amelia' entirely. I keep forgetting the list includes the late 90s.
― Tim F, Friday, 17 August 2012 14:43 (9 months ago) Permalink
Yeah, 'internet music' starts for me in about 2001 really.
― Sick Mouthy (Scik Mouthy), Friday, 17 August 2012 14:45 (9 months ago) Permalink
This is happening for me too, hoping it works on my laptop at home so I can take out my sole 2012 album and add Platinum Breakz in properly.
― Gavin, Leeds, Friday, 17 August 2012 14:48 (9 months ago) Permalink
Wonder when "internet music" starts for people. Because I was a late downloader, but the first album I can remember discussing on the internet around the time of its release was probably Pure Phase (I'd guess I have Elvis Telecom to thank for that.)
― Shepton Mullet (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Friday, 17 August 2012 14:50 (9 months ago) Permalink
http://peopleslist.pitchfork.com/list/a9f386e6/
probably not going to go back and edit this
― Lil Swayne of Pie (DJP), Friday, 17 August 2012 14:51 (9 months ago) Permalink
"Internet music" for me starts with Kid A (first album I downloaded before its release date) or possibly with Since I Left You, which I checked out purely on the basis of internet buzz and got it months before it was released in the UK.
― Matt DC, Friday, 17 August 2012 14:55 (9 months ago) Permalink
Gavin, I switched from Explorer to Firefox and it worked.
― a regina spektor is haunting europe (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 17 August 2012 14:56 (9 months ago) Permalink
Oh noes! Dan has thrown a cog in my game. He's either 3rd or else he's in a three-way tie for 1st depending on how I define the rules.
And so on that note, I give up. It sure has been an interesting (and mostly disappointing) game, though.
Awesome list, too, (and the right RH album at the top.) But our tastes have been slowly converging over the years in a kinda scary way.
― Shepton Mullet (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Friday, 17 August 2012 14:56 (9 months ago) Permalink
I remember when that Portishead album came out, I bought it, listened to it once, and couldn't bear to try it again! It was just so oppressive and relentlessly grim! I've still got the album on my shelf, but I've never listened to it again after that one time. Who knows, maybe it's actually a good record, but I'm not the sort of person to find out.
― Tuomas, Friday, 17 August 2012 14:59 (9 months ago) Permalink
(x-post to Dan)
― Tuomas, Friday, 17 August 2012 15:00 (9 months ago) Permalink
In Sides is exceptional because it's an electronic album that even 16 years later still has the power to blow people's minds for the first listen round. It really hasn't aged all that much at all. Rather than simply being appreciated as a necessary step in the onward march for electronica, it can still be very much appreciated as a "current" record.
― Julian Asshole (dog latin), Friday, 17 August 2012 15:01 (9 months ago) Permalink
It sounded pretty dated seven or eight years ago but strangely less so now.
― Matt DC, Friday, 17 August 2012 15:02 (9 months ago) Permalink
Cheers Alfred - our work computers are all IE, will try that at home.
― Gavin, Leeds, Friday, 17 August 2012 15:03 (9 months ago) Permalink
oh shit, In Sides
maybe I will be editing this
― Lil Swayne of Pie (DJP), Friday, 17 August 2012 15:06 (9 months ago) Permalink
I'd love to see a WCC list.
― Sick Mouthy (Scik Mouthy), Friday, 17 August 2012 15:09 (9 months ago) Permalink
also: But our tastes have been slowly converging over the years in a kinda scary way.
Haha you've noticed this too! It's definitely at a point where when you start talking about a band/artist I think "there is a very good chance I will love that" these days.
― Lil Swayne of Pie (DJP), Friday, 17 August 2012 15:13 (9 months ago) Permalink
http://peopleslist.pitchfork.com/list/65e95a70/
Scrolling records into order on here sucks. It took like 15 minutes to 'make' my top 10 and kinda move some things around a small amount, so I'm giving up there. I'm sure its not so out of character.
― a hoy hoy, Friday, 17 August 2012 15:15 (9 months ago) Permalink
oh fuck Baduizm is eligible
I should just not look at other people's lists
― Lil Swayne of Pie (DJP), Friday, 17 August 2012 15:17 (9 months ago) Permalink
http://peopleslist.pitchfork.com/list/1e02e0e0/
only the top 15 are in anything like order.
― pandemic, Friday, 17 August 2012 15:18 (9 months ago) Permalink
argh just looked at Tom's list and Dig Your Own Hole!
I am not getting any work done today
― Lil Swayne of Pie (DJP), Friday, 17 August 2012 15:19 (9 months ago) Permalink
My list: https://peopleslist.pitchfork.com/list/2113a36f/
― heiswagger (rennavate), Friday, 17 August 2012 15:26 (9 months ago) Permalink
As usual, the more interesting picks are toward the end.
― heiswagger (rennavate), Friday, 17 August 2012 15:27 (9 months ago) Permalink
Fuck I forgot 'Reasonable Doubt'!
― pandemic, Friday, 17 August 2012 15:27 (9 months ago) Permalink
Uptown Saturday NightCamp Lo
how the shit did i forget this???? damn you rennavate, i might have to go back and edit mine.
― a hoy hoy, Friday, 17 August 2012 15:33 (9 months ago) Permalink
I have been assuming WCC has been operating some sort of gothometer but I've no idea really.
― Matt DC, Friday, 17 August 2012 15:34 (9 months ago) Permalink
― mr.raffles, Friday, August 17, 2012 8:48 AM (2 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
Is Tilt eligible (by taking the US release year rather than the UK one?)
― Lewis Apparition (Jon Lewis), Friday, 17 August 2012 15:42 (9 months ago) Permalink
― Matt DC, Friday, 17 August 2012
women artists no?
― coal, Friday, 17 August 2012 15:44 (9 months ago) Permalink
yeah
― Number None, Friday, 17 August 2012 15:45 (9 months ago) Permalink
It's all about "Solar Cock" imo.
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Friday, 17 August 2012 15:45 (9 months ago) Permalink
I need to stop looking at other people's lists so I stop adding albums to mine
― Lil Swayne of Pie (DJP), Friday, 17 August 2012 15:45 (9 months ago) Permalink
Oh come on. Given I'm such a single-issue poster in most people's eyes, what's my big chain-jerking issue like compression is to Sick and...
coal got it. Just start at the top and count until you hit a female artist. (I was trying to figure out if 1/3 of Portishead counted, I'd say they do if she's co-songwriter.)
― Shepton Mullet (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Friday, 17 August 2012 15:48 (9 months ago) Permalink
I would love to put a Missy or TLC album on my list but, at this point, I honestly wouldn't remove any of the albums I have there for either; I feel them more as singles artists anyway
Mya's Moodring would have had a shot had I not relistened to it recently; parts of it just don't hold up (although the great songs are still great, luv u "Late" now and forever)
― Lil Swayne of Pie (DJP), Friday, 17 August 2012 15:51 (9 months ago) Permalink
And now I've just started randomly checking Spodify for artists that DJP namedrops and nodding. Dude, what is your spodify username so I can just cut out the middleman and subscribe to your stream?
― Shepton Mullet (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Friday, 17 August 2012 15:54 (9 months ago) Permalink
Tim: Have you written about Iron Flag anywhere? What makes it yr #2/highest 96+ Wu record?
― a hoy hoy, Friday, 17 August 2012 15:56 (9 months ago) Permalink
I spent over an hour on my list, might as well share it.
http://peopleslist.pitchfork.com/list/6260cf0b/
― get you ass to mahs (abanana), Friday, 17 August 2012 16:12 (9 months ago) Permalink
without that much thought. order is kinda irrelevant : http://peopleslist.pitchfork.com/list/f2a3948c/
― rusty_allen, Friday, 17 August 2012 16:16 (9 months ago) Permalink
djperry1973
― Lil Swayne of Pie (DJP), Friday, 17 August 2012 16:21 (9 months ago) Permalink
also I should probably swap out Santogold Top Ranking for Piracy Funds Terrorism, shouldn't I
― Lil Swayne of Pie (DJP), Friday, 17 August 2012 16:22 (9 months ago) Permalink
If someone makes a massive Spotify list of all these Ilxorz' picks it might just get me back into pop music...
― Lewis Apparition (Jon Lewis), Friday, 17 August 2012 16:24 (9 months ago) Permalink
i am making a list of things ive not heard/am interested in but its not v poppy
http://open.spotify.com/user/sutrarama/playlist/39V9l2MXcBS1t19OF22QBn
― a hoy hoy, Friday, 17 August 2012 16:27 (9 months ago) Permalink
oh shit Unwound
man I can't in good conscience put that album on my list because I haven't played it in like 10 years but I remember it being amazing
― Lil Swayne of Pie (DJP), Friday, 17 August 2012 16:31 (9 months ago) Permalink
― Lewis Apparition (Jon Lewis), Friday, August 17, 2012 12:24 PM (7 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
I'd check that playlist.
― mr.raffles, Friday, 17 August 2012 16:33 (9 months ago) Permalink
man i guess eventually i'll order this thing and add a few more albums at the bottom but this is basically it
https://peopleslist.pitchfork.com/list/1b34d33d/
― emo canon in twee major (BradNelson), Friday, 17 August 2012 16:54 (9 months ago) Permalink
oh shit New Order
ARGH
― Lil Swayne of Pie (DJP), Friday, 17 August 2012 16:55 (9 months ago) Permalink
Wonder is it's possible to guess list-makers' ages by their selections:
via a)importance given to their entry points into genres b)slack given to lesser works by artists that meant much to them while youngc - z) ?
Contest!
― mr.raffles, Friday, 17 August 2012 17:06 (9 months ago) Permalink
https://peopleslist.pitchfork.com/list/3e922c58/
not very accurate or thought out (outside of the top 9), but w/e.
― Spottie_Ottie_Dope, Friday, 17 August 2012 17:33 (9 months ago) Permalink
i didn't take this very seriously.
http://peopleslist.pitchfork.com/list/a8a3acc8/
― hamlisch kilgour (get bent), Friday, 17 August 2012 18:08 (9 months ago) Permalink
Oddly, I think the Brand New album might be the one I've seen the most write-ins for. (It made mine, too.)
― Simon H., Friday, 17 August 2012 18:09 (9 months ago) Permalink
the kind of (ridiculous) authority this thing aspires to is amusing at best but I guess the data mining should improve the music they cover. I am daydreaming that with enough techno votes they will give sherburne back his column or something? anyways, couldn't resist.
http://peopleslist.pitchfork.com/list/55fbbef4/
― wolves lacan, Friday, 17 August 2012 18:16 (9 months ago) Permalink
sweet list, wolves!
― your native bacon (mh), Friday, 17 August 2012 18:17 (9 months ago) Permalink
i regret leaving off aerial; i just didn't think to add it. i spent a lot of time with that record when it came out. it's better than 50 words for snow.
― hamlisch kilgour (get bent), Friday, 17 August 2012 18:20 (9 months ago) Permalink
here's mine just for fun: http://peopleslist.pitchfork.com/list/ee2058a1/
items after #20 or so are unsorted more or less
― diamonddave85, Friday, 17 August 2012 18:20 (9 months ago) Permalink
FYI my list is absolutely sorted 1 - 100, which is why things keep dropping off the bottom as I remember other albums I love (sorry Spiritualized, Beta Band, TV on the Radio, Santogold mix tape)
― Lil Swayne of Pie (DJP), Friday, 17 August 2012 18:25 (9 months ago) Permalink
oh my god ordering this shit is excruciating
― emo canon in twee major (BradNelson), Friday, 17 August 2012 18:56 (9 months ago) Permalink
eh, it's not so bad in Chrome, you do have to do a kind of sprain-inducing wiggle once you hit the upper or lower boundary to get the list to scroll effectively tho
― Lil Swayne of Pie (DJP), Friday, 17 August 2012 18:58 (9 months ago) Permalink
here's 25 from me. a bit thrown together but i'm fine with it. i may expand it to 50 at some point.
http://peopleslist.pitchfork.com/list/4d6d80f5/
― jed_, Friday, 17 August 2012 19:41 (9 months ago) Permalink
voting for this ends tonight. any p4k writers know when the rollout/proceeding clusterfuck is?
― a hoy hoy, Friday, 17 August 2012 19:42 (9 months ago) Permalink
if voting end tonight i won't expand it then!
― jed_, Friday, 17 August 2012 19:47 (9 months ago) Permalink
argh wolves has reminded me that insen should be on mine.
― jed_, Friday, 17 August 2012 19:52 (9 months ago) Permalink
i really wish we could've added album art to our written-in entries... i hate how the blank covers look ugh
― heiswagger (rennavate), Friday, 17 August 2012 19:52 (9 months ago) Permalink
I got bored of going through my discogs collection at 90 albums.
http://peopleslist.pitchfork.com/list/4fe2326c/
― emil.y, Friday, 17 August 2012 19:55 (9 months ago) Permalink
here's mine. did not take this very seriously and if something wasn't in the system i sure as fuck wasn't going to bother typing it in. also went heavy indie cuz it's pfork. also went heavy nostalgia cuz i'm old. http://peopleslist.pitchfork.com/list/a1df4e15/
― balls, Friday, 17 August 2012 19:56 (9 months ago) Permalink
emil.y your lists always consist of 30% things i've heard and really like and 70% things i've never heard, There's never stuff I've heard but don't like. Which usually makes me think I should check out these unheard albums, but 60+ albums is too much to check out so I give up. I am useless. This time I will at least check out the unheard of the top 20
― pandemic, Friday, 17 August 2012 20:00 (9 months ago) Permalink
oh fuck theres only a few hours left for this... ima do this now
― billstevejim, Friday, 17 August 2012 20:03 (9 months ago) Permalink
Awww, thanks pandemic!
― emil.y, Friday, 17 August 2012 20:07 (9 months ago) Permalink
Took it semi-seriously, but I'm sure I forgot some things:http://peopleslist.pitchfork.com/list/d8319955/
― Spencer Chow, Friday, 17 August 2012 20:10 (9 months ago) Permalink
Kinda wondered if someone was gonna start a thread for this.
About 2/3 of my original picks weren't in Pitchfork's database, and I ultimately got rid of all of those except for my #1 because I couldn't stand the absence of album covers. So my compromised list, then:
http://peopleslist.pitchfork.com/list/351fd856/
― Old Lunch, Friday, 17 August 2012 20:13 (9 months ago) Permalink
didn't take this too seriously and only picked stuff from the database, but everyone's doin it so:
http://peopleslist.pitchfork.com/list/63477b18/
― karl...arlk...rlka...lkar..., Friday, 17 August 2012 20:27 (9 months ago) Permalink
how do you guys even come up with this, there are so many albums. i could come up with 100 i really like and then think of 100 more and hate myself
― ticagrelor rotini (k3vin k.), Friday, 17 August 2012 20:39 (9 months ago) Permalink
My basic formula was to throw down the ones I knew I'd vote for and then scroll through my iTunes favorites playlist and see which albums were most heavily represented. Some of which surprised me but made total sense.
― Old Lunch, Friday, 17 August 2012 20:40 (9 months ago) Permalink
i could not have done it if i'd started adding albums that weren't in the database and tried to actually make a definitive list
― karl...arlk...rlka...lkar..., Friday, 17 August 2012 20:44 (9 months ago) Permalink
I went through their lists and picked off ones I liked, then scanned through my discogs account.
― emil.y, Friday, 17 August 2012 20:45 (9 months ago) Permalink
OK, why did I spend nearly my entire workday doing this
http://peopleslist.pitchfork.com/list/30e7a5a5/
― doglatting (jaymc), Friday, 17 August 2012 20:51 (9 months ago) Permalink
I assumed Millions Now Living... must have been too early - I mean, I guess pre-2000 Pitchfork was not professional or comprehensive, but still...
― emil.y, Friday, 17 August 2012 20:58 (9 months ago) Permalink
― doglatting (jaymc), Friday, August 17, 2012 4:51 PM (6 minutes ago)
^^^things no one was wondering
― ticagrelor rotini (k3vin k.), Friday, 17 August 2012 20:59 (9 months ago) Permalink
Yeah, it's '96. I thought it was weird that Pavement's Brighten the Corners wasn't in the database, but I think that's because the original review was taken down.
― doglatting (jaymc), Friday, 17 August 2012 21:00 (9 months ago) Permalink
(xp)
― doglatting (jaymc), Friday, 17 August 2012 21:01 (9 months ago) Permalink
Some sweet overlap with my own picks, jaymc. Camoufleur and Dots And Loops were high on my original list before my anal demand for album covers necessitated their unfortunate removal.
― Old Lunch, Friday, 17 August 2012 21:02 (9 months ago) Permalink
i figure it would be more fun to choose stuff outside of the pitchfork database..
― billstevejim, Friday, 17 August 2012 21:03 (9 months ago) Permalink
my anal demand for album covers necessitated their unfortunate removal
So you'll not vote for things you like just so your list will look nicer, thereby lessening their chances of making the final results?
― Johnny Fever, Friday, 17 August 2012 21:04 (9 months ago) Permalink
is this being used to compile the results somehow? it would be fun to see a few write-ins receiving multiple acknowledgements
― billstevejim, Friday, 17 August 2012 21:04 (9 months ago) Permalink
This is the only thing being used to compile the results, iirc. It's THE PEOPLE'S LIST.
― Johnny Fever, Friday, 17 August 2012 21:07 (9 months ago) Permalink
haha at the idea of write in votes making the final results
― balls, Friday, 17 August 2012 21:08 (9 months ago) Permalink
Ha, I was only vaguely aware when I put it together that the results were being used for anything other than my own amusement. So, yeah.
― Old Lunch, Friday, 17 August 2012 21:09 (9 months ago) Permalink
I would be interested to see if any write-ins make it, I imagine a lot of people will just pick from their lists.
― emil.y, Friday, 17 August 2012 21:10 (9 months ago) Permalink
I mean, my #1 is a write-in, and there's no way it even makes it into the top 1,000 of any compiled list. So besides the fact that I never even look at Pitchfork, I'm not personally too concerned about omitted write-ins.
― Old Lunch, Friday, 17 August 2012 21:11 (9 months ago) Permalink
my guess (willing to hear other possibilities) most likely write in to make it: le tigre - s/t
― balls, Friday, 17 August 2012 21:11 (9 months ago) Permalink
Mostly likely is Hello Nasty imo.
― Johnny Fever, Friday, 17 August 2012 21:12 (9 months ago) Permalink
I think Brighten the Corners and Terror Twilight both stand a chance.
― doglatting (jaymc), Friday, 17 August 2012 21:13 (9 months ago) Permalink
heres mine http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Sze9mWNOy4g/TqYseVEt93I/AAAAAAAAA4w/8SAYpd7s7AI/s1600/middle+finger.jpg
― lag∞n, Friday, 17 August 2012 21:14 (9 months ago) Permalink
I like the psychedelic swirl in the middle of that.
― emil.y, Friday, 17 August 2012 21:15 (9 months ago) Permalink
I voted for Brighten. I wouldn't have voted for Terror Twilight if I had 1000 places.
― Johnny Fever, Friday, 17 August 2012 21:15 (9 months ago) Permalink
and tbh willing to bet le tigre or hello nasty doesn't make it. also willing to bet most of the ppl's list will come off the staff lists.
― balls, Friday, 17 August 2012 21:17 (9 months ago) Permalink
also kinda odd looking at staff's lists (even ryan pfork's) and seeing write in's (of super super prominent indie records too) - i get that say tom ewing maybe can't get something added to the database but ryan pfork? indicative of how half assed this affair is
― balls, Friday, 17 August 2012 21:20 (9 months ago) Permalink
where are the staff lists? link?
― ogmor, Friday, 17 August 2012 21:28 (9 months ago) Permalink
― doglatting (jaymc), Friday, August 17, 2012 5:00 PM (20 minutes ago) Bookmark
lol my first published review was of that album in the high school paper, so it's strangely comforting to see one that's even worse
― uncleshavedlongneck (some dude), Friday, 17 August 2012 21:29 (9 months ago) Permalink
http://pitchfork.com/news/47538-the-peoples-list-our-staffs-picks/
― balls, Friday, 17 August 2012 21:30 (9 months ago) Permalink
heres mine: http://peopleslist.pitchfork.com/list/02ce3abb/
― Michael B Higgins (Michael B), Friday, 17 August 2012 21:48 (9 months ago) Permalink
I got to 50 and then got bored and gave up. I also made it hard for myself by saying I couldn't pick any more than one album by any artist which sometimes made for some weird choices. The moment I hit submit I will think of 100 things I should have picked instead and forgot.
http://peopleslist.pitchfork.com/list/e7f160ee/
Don't blame me for number 2, my vagina picked that one, not me. I have really boring and predictable taste in music blah blah blah, the end.
― Shepton Mullet (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Friday, 17 August 2012 21:49 (9 months ago) Permalink
http://peopleslist.pitchfork.com/list/a2dbd57c/
pretty much random (order added) after the first few
― contenderizer, Friday, 17 August 2012 21:50 (9 months ago) Permalink
forgot tons of stuff :(
― contenderizer, Friday, 17 August 2012 21:57 (9 months ago) Permalink
― emil.y, Friday, August 17, 2012 5:15 PM (43 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
thx it was sort of an obscure write in by me
― lag∞n, Friday, 17 August 2012 21:59 (9 months ago) Permalink
here's mine http://peopleslist.pitchfork.com/list/4601c9da/
― maura, Friday, 17 August 2012 22:02 (9 months ago) Permalink
(SORRY WHINEY)
Some artists I like who didn't make the cut -- Phoenix, Kanye West, Air, Cut Copy, Spoon, Blonde Redhead, LCD Soundsystem.
But I guess it's my own fault for including four Jim O'Rourke albums.
― doglatting (jaymc), Friday, 17 August 2012 22:05 (9 months ago) Permalink
(Also, I suspect at least a couple of those won't need my votes.)
― doglatting (jaymc), Friday, 17 August 2012 22:06 (9 months ago) Permalink
strictly albums, i guess, huh? or can i vote for the Eluvium box set?
― alpine static, Friday, 17 August 2012 22:06 (9 months ago) Permalink
like j0rdan's list, although the presence of three Erykah Badu albums but not 4th World War is puzzling
― uncleshavedlongneck (some dude), Friday, 17 August 2012 22:07 (9 months ago) Permalink
think you can vote for anything. i included my cat.
^ not true
― contenderizer, Friday, 17 August 2012 22:07 (9 months ago) Permalink
Okay this was worth whatever time I spent on it as it led me to listening to Comet Gain on youtube for the last hour thanks to them appearing at #2 on emil.y's list. So wonderful!
― pandemic, Friday, 17 August 2012 22:09 (9 months ago) Permalink
:D
― emil.y, Friday, 17 August 2012 22:10 (9 months ago) Permalink
i mean, i'm really a "stick to proper albums" kind of dude on year-end lists, etc. i tend to leave out EPs, mixes ... though that has been shifting in recent years.
don't know that i can go as far to include a 7xLP, comprehensive box, though. doesn't seem right.
― alpine static, Friday, 17 August 2012 22:15 (9 months ago) Permalink
looks like some 2012 albums might show up... i included one.
― billstevejim, Friday, 17 August 2012 22:22 (9 months ago) Permalink
― a hoy hoy, Friday, August 17, 2012 3:56 PM (6 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
it's Wu's party album.
― Tim F, Friday, 17 August 2012 22:24 (9 months ago) Permalink
pitchfork never reviewed/acknowledged ironman apparently..
― billstevejim, Friday, 17 August 2012 22:30 (9 months ago) Permalink
Pre-2003 era.
― Tim F, Friday, 17 August 2012 22:35 (9 months ago) Permalink
my list. http://peopleslist.pitchfork.com/list/822fb186/
― all the worlds a stage and kitty's just stepped into the spotlight (cajunsunday), Friday, 17 August 2012 22:40 (9 months ago) Permalink
Picking albums was fun, but ordering them was A REAL DRAG ohoho
http://peopleslist.pitchfork.com/list/3dc2e6f2/
Double Leopards deserve higher than 88.
― Hotblack Desiatos #1 Hits 1942 (Spectrist), Friday, 17 August 2012 22:43 (9 months ago) Permalink
yeah see i forgot wolf eyes entirely. and yura yura teikoku.
― contenderizer, Friday, 17 August 2012 22:48 (9 months ago) Permalink
Oh shit, I forgot the Conet Project.
― emil.y, Friday, 17 August 2012 22:49 (9 months ago) Permalink
at this point i'm most interested in the results of this to see if it confirms that MBDTF is now kanye's "canon" album amongst rock-leaning fans
figure it has an outside shot at the top 10
― a hoy hoy heat (J0rdan S.), Friday, 17 August 2012 22:57 (9 months ago) Permalink
ugh, I hope you are wrong
― Johnny Fever, Friday, 17 August 2012 23:02 (9 months ago) Permalink
i've been kind of hoping those guys are slightly embarrassed of the MBDTF hysteria and just want to quietly forget about it
― Number None, Friday, 17 August 2012 23:04 (9 months ago) Permalink
forgot dalek too, dammit. filthy tongues at least should have been on there.
― contenderizer, Friday, 17 August 2012 23:05 (9 months ago) Permalink
seriously side-eyeing so many people (not on here) whose only rap album on their list is MBDTF. It's almost certainly going to be voted the best rap album of the past 16 years on this list which is yeah, so embarrassing. the whole thing still feels like some inside joke to me.
i'm most looking forward to the lists broken down by what ppl say is their genre of choice (well at least I hope they do this) - want to know what the results are for self-professed pop/r&b/dance/hip-hop heads and not the main indie list where the results are gonna be the most predictable thing ever.
― prolego, Friday, 17 August 2012 23:15 (9 months ago) Permalink
here's mine -- thanks to tim f, alfred, deej, alex in mon for helping me remember things
http://peopleslist.pitchfork.com/list/cb9c83e5/
― a hoy hoy heat (J0rdan S.), Friday, 17 August 2012 23:19 (9 months ago) Permalink
Please predict the top ten indie.
― Julian Asshole (dog latin), Friday, 17 August 2012 23:19 (9 months ago) Permalink
I'm not willing to put money on it yet, but I think Arcade Fire's Funeral is nearly a lock for #1 (if it's not In the Aeroplane Over the Sea).
― Johnny Fever, Friday, 17 August 2012 23:20 (9 months ago) Permalink
...OK Computer?
― Number None, Friday, 17 August 2012 23:21 (9 months ago) Permalink
Oh shit, forgot about Radiohead.
Who reads Pitchfork most and who would be most inclined to take the time to vote? If it's youngs, Arcade Fire wins. If it's not-so-youngs, Radiohead or NMH win.
― Johnny Fever, Friday, 17 August 2012 23:22 (9 months ago) Permalink
pretty funny that the suggested search for an album is "e.g. Grimes"
― Number None, Friday, 17 August 2012 23:25 (9 months ago) Permalink
is scott pl not involved with p4k anymore?
― ticagrelor rotini (k3vin k.), Friday, 17 August 2012 23:31 (9 months ago) Permalink
seriously side-eyeing so many people (not on here) whose only rap album on their list is MBDTF.
Haha the only rap album on mine is Speakerboxxx/The Love Below. Came very close to putting on one of the first three Kanyes but couldn't decide which one and it seemed kind of tokenistic. For better or worse, S/TLB was an Important Album for me at the time.
― doglatting (jaymc), Friday, 17 August 2012 23:31 (9 months ago) Permalink
― mr.raffles
Oh shit, this should have been on my list. I did find room for the Robert Forster album though.
― Kitchen Person, Friday, 17 August 2012 23:40 (9 months ago) Permalink
― billstevejim, Friday, August 17, 2012 6:22 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark
everything says "1996-2011" though
― uncleshavedlongneck (some dude), Friday, 17 August 2012 23:51 (9 months ago) Permalink
― ticagrelor rotini (k3vin k.), Friday, August 17, 2012 11:31 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
Yeah he left a while back. Replaced by ILM's own Mark Richardson.
― Tim F, Saturday, 18 August 2012 00:02 (9 months ago) Permalink
richardson had been there since forever too tho?
― ticagrelor rotini (k3vin k.), Saturday, 18 August 2012 00:03 (9 months ago) Permalink
tim your list is awesome btw. want to make one myself but not really feeling up to the task atm - can you still do this after the voting closes?
― ticagrelor rotini (k3vin k.), Saturday, 18 August 2012 00:04 (9 months ago) Permalink
I did one here. Tricksy. Happy with the first 25, for definite.
― Cragenham Craig (Craigo Boingo), Saturday, 18 August 2012 00:06 (9 months ago) Permalink
Yeah I mean Mark took Scott's old role.
And thanks.
― Tim F, Saturday, 18 August 2012 00:08 (9 months ago) Permalink
― Old Lunch
Another Charlotte Hatherley fan. I love those albums.
― Kitchen Person, Saturday, 18 August 2012 00:09 (9 months ago) Permalink
my guess is that pitchfork's audience skews young enough to the point where radiohead will be passed up for no. 1 -- my bet would be something like funeral or yankee hotel foxtrot or w/e
― a hoy hoy heat (J0rdan S.), Saturday, 18 August 2012 00:13 (9 months ago) Permalink
still expect them to have 2 albums in the top 10 tho
― a hoy hoy heat (J0rdan S.), Saturday, 18 August 2012 00:14 (9 months ago) Permalink
nah radiohead will definitely place over arcade fire and wilco
― some dude, Saturday, 18 August 2012 00:14 (9 months ago) Permalink
think i'm done fussing with mine:
http://peopleslist.pitchfork.com/list/179a6412/
I wonder if we added up all lists posted on this thread which albums would come out on top. Homogenic, Emperor Tomato Ketchup, The Drift, Sound Of Silver, Aquemini, New Amerykah and Voodoo would all be up there I think.
― Kitchen Person, Saturday, 18 August 2012 00:15 (9 months ago) Permalink
oh yeah -- the year retrospectives on some dude's blog were vital to me being able to put this list together while maintaining my sanity
― a hoy hoy heat (J0rdan S.), Saturday, 18 August 2012 00:19 (9 months ago) Permalink
XD
― some dude, Saturday, 18 August 2012 00:21 (9 months ago) Permalink
think/hope you're wrong about anyone really preferring Dark Twisted Fanta Girls to College Dropout but historically PF reader poll results are pretty insane so who knows
― some dude, Saturday, 18 August 2012 00:22 (9 months ago) Permalink
Right!? The first two are among the most criminally underrated albums of the '00s, and seem to be practically unknown/nonexistent in the US.
― Old Lunch, Saturday, 18 August 2012 00:23 (9 months ago) Permalink
I like Charlotte fine, but don't love her albums. Coolest thing I've ever seen her do is play guitar with Bat for Lashes on Jimmy Fallon's show. She was INTO IT.
― Johnny Fever, Saturday, 18 August 2012 00:25 (9 months ago) Permalink
They're hardly that known in the UK either, it's a real shame. New Worlds is pretty good too but the first two are just so good. I was never an Ash fan but she's turned into one of the best songwriters around.
Hey Johnny Fever have you done your list yet? Would be really interested to see it.
― Kitchen Person, Saturday, 18 August 2012 00:38 (9 months ago) Permalink
I think the potential winners are: Kid A, OK Computer, Funeral, Yankee Hotel Foxtrot, and In The Aeroplane Over The Sea. I would be shocked if anything else took the top spot.
― monster_xero, Saturday, 18 August 2012 00:38 (9 months ago) Permalink
Yeah, here's my list (I pretty much sorted the top 10 or 15 into an order, and then just lumped a bunch of others on there in no order at all): http://peopleslist.pitchfork.com/list/9e677131/
― Johnny Fever, Saturday, 18 August 2012 00:40 (9 months ago) Permalink
NMH is pretty likely imo
― some dude, Saturday, 18 August 2012 00:41 (9 months ago) Permalink
i'm confident that in time this will be accepted as the true canon http://peopleslist.pitchfork.com/list/17a105ed/
― ogmor, Saturday, 18 August 2012 00:51 (9 months ago) Permalink
― Johnny Fever
Good list, is there a chance you forgot the Portishead album? I seem to remember you had that as your number one in the 2005-09 list.
― Kitchen Person, Saturday, 18 August 2012 00:53 (9 months ago) Permalink
The act which suffered the most from my decision to avoid write-ins was Capsule, who would've easily gotten four spots in my top 100 and probably two in the top 25.
― Old Lunch, Saturday, 18 August 2012 00:54 (9 months ago) Permalink
realizing that I could mess around with this forever and I need to figure out how to refrain: http://peopleslist.pitchfork.com/list/35b5599a/
― I don't even know wtf this band sounds like I'm just trollin (fffv), Saturday, 18 August 2012 00:57 (9 months ago) Permalink
I'm down with about half of your list, ogmor, and probably need to listen to the half I haven't heard.
― Old Lunch, Saturday, 18 August 2012 01:07 (9 months ago) Permalink
― some dude, Friday, August 17, 2012 8:22 PM (44 minutes ago) Bookmark
i've seen MBDTF rated really highly on a number of lists... plenty of people on staff have it in the top 10/15 i think
― a hoy hoy heat (J0rdan S.), Saturday, 18 August 2012 01:07 (9 months ago) Permalink
ah i didn't look at all the staff lists but i feel like i've seen it like twice out of the couple dozen lists i've seen so far
― some dude, Saturday, 18 August 2012 01:09 (9 months ago) Permalink
PF reader poll results are pretty insane so who knows
How many reader polls have there been?
― Johnny Fever, Saturday, 18 August 2012 01:10 (9 months ago) Permalink
Maybe they do it every year and I just don't pay attention.
i think every year or almost every year lately there's been some sort of reader poll component to the year-end rundowns
― some dude, Saturday, 18 August 2012 01:12 (9 months ago) Permalink
yeah they're done every year... honestly the readers polls are maybe even slightly indier than you would expect, but not unexpected given the exercise
childish gambino is probably going to make an insane showing in this poll, just fyi
― a hoy hoy heat (J0rdan S.), Saturday, 18 August 2012 01:13 (9 months ago) Permalink
well every year for the last 3 or so years i think
Anybody know if they've got staffers writing blurbs this weekend or are they just going to throw up the results and leave it at that?
― Johnny Fever, Saturday, 18 August 2012 01:15 (9 months ago) Permalink
they're going to make people buy Chuck Taylors with the results printed on the soles
― some dude, Saturday, 18 August 2012 01:16 (9 months ago) Permalink
― some dude, Friday, August 17, 2012 8:22 PM (54 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
please tell me this is a personal coinage
― ticagrelor rotini (k3vin k.), Saturday, 18 August 2012 01:18 (9 months ago) Permalink
― dark twisted fanta girl (some dude), Wednesday, August 11, 2010 8:57 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark
― some dude, Saturday, 18 August 2012 01:19 (9 months ago) Permalink
yeah i thought this was gonna be another bone to their readers since they don't do comments, etc (good call btw), they do a readers poll every year for a few years now but the results are just released under the radar, certainly not promoted like their big lists. i assumed this would be the same but it definitely looks like they're gonna make it their big list this year. and then what next year? start cycling thru the decades again? come up w/ a fresh idea?
― balls, Saturday, 18 August 2012 01:19 (9 months ago) Permalink
of course. god bless
― ticagrelor rotini (k3vin k.), Saturday, 18 August 2012 01:19 (9 months ago) Permalink
xp
Yep, also did a Pitchfork list. Probably missed some, but it's okay, for something I did real quick.
http://peopleslist.pitchfork.com/list/bf3ec758/
― jetfan, Saturday, 18 August 2012 01:20 (9 months ago) Permalink
highest ranking album from past five years - vampire weekend? animal collective? mbdtf? something i'm horrified by and have forgotten? also, call me crazy, but i bet discovery tops yhf. and i think the winner is definitely either a merge release or a radiohead album.
― balls, Saturday, 18 August 2012 01:25 (9 months ago) Permalink
Last 5 years? Probably MBDTF, but maybe MPP is just as likely.
― Johnny Fever, Saturday, 18 August 2012 01:26 (9 months ago) Permalink
nah MPP will smash kanye -- i wouldn't be at all shocked if MBDTF was the highest rated rap album, period
― a hoy hoy heat (J0rdan S.), Saturday, 18 August 2012 01:34 (9 months ago) Permalink
it will def be the highest rated rap album of the last 5 years
It's so weird to me that MBDTF is held in such high regard. I mean, it's fine, but even the first time I heard it, I thought a lot of it was awfully tl;dr. And it certainly falls short of his first two albums.
― Old Lunch, Saturday, 18 August 2012 01:35 (9 months ago) Permalink
a lot of it was awfully tl;dr
Yes, this is the best description of it ever.
― Johnny Fever, Saturday, 18 August 2012 01:39 (9 months ago) Permalink
are there really that many people besides the douchebag that wrote "we are young" who started to appreciate this rap music thing as more than a fad because of MBDTF? i mean i'm sure there are a few but what the hell
― some dude, Saturday, 18 August 2012 01:41 (9 months ago) Permalink
tbh mbdtf getting top kanye wouldn't make me rmde smh and maybe even kmt as much as yhf beating summerteeth and being there for top wilco (a certainty).
― balls, Saturday, 18 August 2012 01:50 (9 months ago) Permalink
I gave myself some restrictions (1 album per artist, everything recorded for release in the period) otherwise it'd be 100 albums of Scott Walker, Robert Wyatt, Arthur Russell & Lungfish.
http://peopleslist.pitchfork.com/list/939da9bd/
As seems to be the way, all rankings beyond the top 10 everything are somewhat arbitrary.
― Oblique Strategies, Saturday, 18 August 2012 01:57 (9 months ago) Permalink
What are the top ten rap albums likely to be?
1. MBDTF2. Hello Nasty3. College Dropout4. SB/TLB5. The Black Album
??
― Tim F, Saturday, 18 August 2012 02:00 (9 months ago) Permalink
Please don't tell me Watch The Throne will crack top ten.
Stankonia will be in there. Blueprint 2 as well.
― Chick-on-Chick-fil-A (Johnny Fever), Saturday, 18 August 2012 02:03 (9 months ago) Permalink
stankonia (bet it wins even), graduation, aquemini, blueprint, carter III
― balls, Saturday, 18 August 2012 02:05 (9 months ago) Permalink
Should I try to fill mine out to 100? Dunno, maybe, ok. Also went for the 1 album per artist idea, no write-ins.
― Cong rat ululations (seandalai), Saturday, 18 August 2012 02:05 (9 months ago) Permalink
I'd love to know the albums people rated highly at the time but realized while composing this list were actually kinda shitty/didn't age all well.
― Old Lunch, Saturday, 18 August 2012 02:05 (9 months ago) Permalink
Won't other Outkast albums be higher than the double? I have seen Aquemini on a lot of peoples lists.
The Blueprint and maybe Reasonable Doubt will do well. The Marshall Mathers LP will be up there too.
― Kitchen Person, Saturday, 18 August 2012 02:06 (9 months ago) Permalink
curious to see where marshall mathers lp ends up
― balls, Saturday, 18 August 2012 02:06 (9 months ago) Permalink
Re: top 10 rap albums, I feel like I've seen The Cold Vein in several people's lists. Maybe a little too backpacky to make the top 10.
― Old Lunch, Saturday, 18 August 2012 02:07 (9 months ago) Permalink
i do not as highly rate endtroducing as i did at the time
― balls, Saturday, 18 August 2012 02:08 (9 months ago) Permalink
o jesus christ guys
― balls, Saturday, 18 August 2012 02:09 (9 months ago) Permalink
i just remembered something that may well be top ten pfork hip hop
― balls, Saturday, 18 August 2012 02:10 (9 months ago) Permalink
wouldn't be at all surprised. i even voted for it!
― contenderizer, Saturday, 18 August 2012 02:17 (9 months ago) Permalink
A post-Blur retrospective box set of Damon Albarn projects would rate quite highly on my list, if such a thing were to exist. Demon Days made it onto the tail-end of my list, anyway.
― Old Lunch, Saturday, 18 August 2012 02:20 (9 months ago) Permalink
i made a list, missing plenty canon stuff but Ø\(∞_o)/Ø - http://peopleslist.pitchfork.com/list/64066fb2/
― johnny crunch, Saturday, 18 August 2012 02:33 (9 months ago) Permalink
ah fugg, i forgot spank rock
― contenderizer, Saturday, 18 August 2012 02:38 (9 months ago) Permalink
Confirming this will flag the post for the attention of the moderators.
Posters whose posts are repeatedly flagged may be limited from posting or banned.
― a hoy hoy heat (J0rdan S.), Saturday, 18 August 2012 02:44 (9 months ago) Permalink
Watch out, we got a badass over here.
― Turangalila, Saturday, 18 August 2012 02:48 (9 months ago) Permalink
went a little over 100, but I'm guessing they'll just trim that off
http://peopleslist.pitchfork.com/list/a78213a2/
― Chris S, Saturday, 18 August 2012 02:49 (9 months ago) Permalink
Okay I'm seeing Homogenic on a lot of lists, I'm thinking this might do very well.
― Kitchen Person, Saturday, 18 August 2012 03:00 (9 months ago) Permalink
As it should, tbh.
― Turangalila, Saturday, 18 August 2012 03:02 (9 months ago) Permalink
yeah, i'm not a fan, but i'd be very surprised if it didn't score high
― contenderizer, Saturday, 18 August 2012 03:07 (9 months ago) Permalink
I Can Hear The Heart Beating As One seems to be another old-timey favorite.
― Old Lunch, Saturday, 18 August 2012 03:07 (9 months ago) Permalink
and damn. just got my list down to 100 by ruthlessly enforcing a 1-per-artist rule. cutting stankonia and white chalk in favor of stuff that could never possibly make the top 1000 just about killed me, but i did what had to be done. down from nearly 150 when i first looked up from adding stuff...
kind of astonishes me that i had to write in for hello nasty when 22 albums with the word "hello" in the title are there for the clicking.
― contenderizer, Saturday, 18 August 2012 03:19 (9 months ago) Permalink
*sighs*
http://peopleslist.pitchfork.com/list/9cbc1ca0/
― ships and chicks, Saturday, 18 August 2012 03:26 (9 months ago) Permalink
hi
― buzza, Saturday, 18 August 2012 03:28 (9 months ago) Permalink
2.0: http://peopleslist.pitchfork.com/list/a2dbd57c/
― contenderizer, Saturday, 18 August 2012 03:30 (9 months ago) Permalink
^ more or less unsorted
― contenderizer, Saturday, 18 August 2012 03:31 (9 months ago) Permalink
thanks mh!
― wolves lacan, Saturday, 18 August 2012 03:36 (9 months ago) Permalink
xps Nice, except you picked the wrong Hot Snakes album.
― Chick-on-Chick-fil-A (Johnny Fever), Saturday, 18 August 2012 03:38 (9 months ago) Permalink
Top PickMy Beautiful Dark Twisted FantasyKanye West
oh
― ticagrelor rotini (k3vin k.), Saturday, 18 August 2012 03:52 (9 months ago) Permalink
i'm sayin
― a hoy hoy heat (J0rdan S.), Saturday, 18 August 2012 03:56 (9 months ago) Permalink
i truly don't understand a viewpoint where that's kanye's best album. it would be like telling me my mom is an alien or some shit.
― a hoy hoy heat (J0rdan S.), Saturday, 18 August 2012 03:57 (9 months ago) Permalink
― ships and chicks, Friday, August 17, 2012 11:26 PM (27 minutes ago) Bookmark
nice to see someone else with makaveli and flockaveli
― some dude, Saturday, 18 August 2012 03:58 (9 months ago) Permalink
Also, can you imagine Kanye's ego explosion if he were to win a poll like this where "the people have spoken"?
― Chick-on-Chick-fil-A (Johnny Fever), Saturday, 18 August 2012 03:59 (9 months ago) Permalink
My only Kanye album was Graduation but I've accepted I'm alone about it.
― a regina spektor is haunting europe (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Saturday, 18 August 2012 03:59 (9 months ago) Permalink
i wonder what write-in votes, if any, will place. don't see any consensus appearing to form around any.
― some dude, Saturday, 18 August 2012 04:00 (9 months ago) Permalink
reasonable doubt is the big one
― protected by viper. stand back. (D-40), Saturday, 18 August 2012 04:00 (9 months ago) Permalink
as far as rap i mean
i don't think kanye has much of an idea of what pitchfork is tbh
― a hoy hoy heat (J0rdan S.), Saturday, 18 August 2012 04:02 (9 months ago) Permalink
he def does, esp since the 10.0
― protected by viper. stand back. (D-40), Saturday, 18 August 2012 04:02 (9 months ago) Permalink
yeah are there any non-rap write ins that could place? i have no concept of that
pretty sure Kanye depends on critlove for moral propulsion these days
― a regina spektor is haunting europe (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Saturday, 18 August 2012 04:03 (9 months ago) Permalink
i'm not sure if that's true either
― a hoy hoy heat (J0rdan S.), Saturday, 18 August 2012 04:04 (9 months ago) Permalink
his world seems incredibly isolated to me
Pitchfork is big enough for Kanye to keep tabs, I'd think. You don't have festivals on two different continents and still fly under the radar.
― Chick-on-Chick-fil-A (Johnny Fever), Saturday, 18 August 2012 04:04 (9 months ago) Permalink
i don't know if someone getting perfect marks from every pub really cares more about one than the other but if so i kinda imagine 5 stars in rolling stone is a bigger feather in his cap (while still meaning a fraction of what his various grammys mean to him)
― some dude, Saturday, 18 August 2012 04:06 (9 months ago) Permalink
if kanye gave a fuck about pitchfork cool points he probably would've played the festival at some point
― a hoy hoy heat (J0rdan S.), Saturday, 18 August 2012 04:06 (9 months ago) Permalink
― a hoy hoy heat (J0rdan S.), Saturday, August 18, 2012 12:02 AM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
oh i highly doubt this
as for what will place/write-ins specifically, we should remember this is not an ilx poll, actual pitchfork readers are allowed to vote in this
― ticagrelor rotini (k3vin k.), Saturday, 18 August 2012 04:08 (9 months ago) Permalink
i just came to terms with mbdtf being my favorite of ye's when doing this. hasn't fully sunk in yet.
creeping #peopleslist on twitter and the only album i've seen more frequently listed (highly) than mbdtf is voodoo.
― ships and chicks, Saturday, 18 August 2012 04:09 (9 months ago) Permalink
Pretty sure that Brighten the Corners is a lock for one of the write-in placements.
― Chick-on-Chick-fil-A (Johnny Fever), Saturday, 18 August 2012 04:09 (9 months ago) Permalink
xp Voodoo is all over the place on these ballots. Year 2000 Pitchfork wouldn't know what to make of that.
― Chick-on-Chick-fil-A (Johnny Fever), Saturday, 18 August 2012 04:10 (9 months ago) Permalink
i'm sure kanye has clicked on pitchfork for a few seconds before spending another hour looking at hypebeast or whatever
― some dude, Saturday, 18 August 2012 04:11 (9 months ago) Permalink
i'm sure kanye KNOWS what pitchfork is, obviously. but i don't think you'll hear him saying "kim's a 10.0 and so is my last album" on 'cruel summer'
― a hoy hoy heat (J0rdan S.), Saturday, 18 August 2012 04:11 (9 months ago) Permalink
of course Kanye knows what Pitchfork is. That doesn't mean he would deign to play their festival
― Number None, Saturday, 18 August 2012 04:12 (9 months ago) Permalink
― Chick-on-Chick-fil-A (Johnny Fever), Saturday, August 18, 2012 12:10 AM (30 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
ship wrote a review for them that they apparently didn't accept!
but again, what ballots
― ticagrelor rotini (k3vin k.), Saturday, 18 August 2012 04:12 (9 months ago) Permalink
i could see voodoo being in the bottom of the overall top 100. obv it's not coming close to sniffing MBDTF
― a hoy hoy heat (J0rdan S.), Saturday, 18 August 2012 04:13 (9 months ago) Permalink
what's funny is Voodoo is in their archive i guess from being in their best of decade list, but it was never reviewed. i remember because it was one of my sample reviews that got me hired, but the only one that didn't get published.
xpost lol k3v's xls is impressive!
― some dude, Saturday, 18 August 2012 04:13 (9 months ago) Permalink
although it was already several months old at that point is probably why, i mainly wrote it because i was annoyed they hadn't covered it already
― some dude, Saturday, 18 August 2012 04:14 (9 months ago) Permalink
ship i thought i remember you saying that you didn't really give voodoo much of a chance up until very recently (like the last 2-3 years)
― a hoy hoy heat (J0rdan S.), Saturday, 18 August 2012 04:14 (9 months ago) Permalink
ILM ballots and fb friends' ballots. However, I realize I live inside a bubble where people who'd vote in this poll don't listen to mopey dudes with greasy hair all day long.
― Chick-on-Chick-fil-A (Johnny Fever), Saturday, 18 August 2012 04:14 (9 months ago) Permalink
right that's what i'm sayin. remember who the voting base is here
― ticagrelor rotini (k3vin k.), Saturday, 18 August 2012 04:15 (9 months ago) Permalink
cmon kanye def cares what TASTEMAKERS think & pfork is exactly the kind of thing hed care about
― protected by viper. stand back. (D-40), Saturday, 18 August 2012 04:18 (9 months ago) Permalink
― a hoy hoy heat (J0rdan S.), Saturday, August 18, 2012 12:14 AM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark
hmmm did i? it was more the opposite, grappled with but ultimately embraced it early on, but it fell in my esteem over the years as i heard Brown Sugar, Instant Vintage, other things i hold in comparison to now
fuck i just realized i didn't vote for Instant Vintage
― some dude, Saturday, 18 August 2012 04:19 (9 months ago) Permalink
dude gets more excited about being in Paris newspapers than any music website though
― some dude, Saturday, 18 August 2012 04:20 (9 months ago) Permalink
― some dude, Friday, August 17, 2012 11:19 PM (55 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
ugh me either.this is like when i realized urban hang suite was actually '96 too
― protected by viper. stand back. (D-40), Saturday, 18 August 2012 04:20 (9 months ago) Permalink
yeah but tastemakers to kanye are fashion designers, not journalists
― a hoy hoy heat (J0rdan S.), Saturday, 18 August 2012 04:21 (9 months ago) Permalink
yeah, ship OTM
i haven't seen any evidence in the past 5 years that kanye defines himself/his art in traditional ways
― a hoy hoy heat (J0rdan S.), Saturday, 18 August 2012 04:22 (9 months ago) Permalink
pitchfork has been around since he was not the noted name he is today
― protected by kl0pper. stand back (D-40), Saturday, 18 August 2012 04:22 (9 months ago) Permalink
al I just read back the post on narrowcast where you wrote about voodoo in your decade wrap and I just misremembered it
― a hoy hoy heat (J0rdan S.), Saturday, 18 August 2012 04:23 (9 months ago) Permalink
ah ok
― some dude, Saturday, 18 August 2012 04:23 (9 months ago) Permalink
around the good friday run, kanye did show up at one of those pfork bowling alley shows that I think a-trak was DJ-ing iirc
still I think the amount with which he cares about what the site/its readers think is being overstated
― a hoy hoy heat (J0rdan S.), Saturday, 18 August 2012 04:25 (9 months ago) Permalink
being overstated by who?
― protected by kl0pper. stand back (D-40), Saturday, 18 August 2012 04:26 (9 months ago) Permalink
I never meant to imply he cares that much on a day to day basis, but if MBDTF were to win he'd sure talk about it all day.
― Chick-on-Chick-fil-A (Johnny Fever), Saturday, 18 August 2012 04:27 (9 months ago) Permalink
he didn't actually seem to talk, publicly anyway, about all the album's initial claim much at all. only public statement i can remember was an unhappy one about the Grammy AOTY snub.
― some dude, Saturday, 18 August 2012 04:28 (9 months ago) Permalink
initial acclaim
tbh the only time I know what Kanye's doing is when someone else brings it to my attention.
― Chick-on-Chick-fil-A (Johnny Fever), Saturday, 18 August 2012 04:29 (9 months ago) Permalink
the site didn't specify but i was hoping it was 11:59 pacific time. apparently not.
― alpine static, Saturday, 18 August 2012 04:30 (9 months ago) Permalink
lol at you guys wondering what write-in might make it and thinking 'reasonable doubt' and going huh at old pfork not covering d'angelo
― balls, Saturday, 18 August 2012 04:32 (9 months ago) Permalink
balls: tickled
― some dude, Saturday, 18 August 2012 04:33 (9 months ago) Permalink
also are you guys actually befuddled at there being ppl (esp ppl who read pfork) whose favorite kanye might be mbdtf? really?
― balls, Saturday, 18 August 2012 04:34 (9 months ago) Permalink
kanye talks recent pfork album reviews with rob kardashian
― ships and chicks, Saturday, 18 August 2012 04:35 (9 months ago) Permalink
i mean i can imagine the argument for watch the throne or 808s and those would be alot more whuh to me.
― balls, Saturday, 18 August 2012 04:38 (9 months ago) Permalink
i know people love MBDTF and all, i just always wonder how much that was tied up in it being the supposed best of its year/era and whether that many people actually ultimately prefer it to all his other albums. College Dropout was, um, pretty popular with the Pitchfork crowd too iirc.
― some dude, Saturday, 18 August 2012 04:40 (9 months ago) Permalink
It's kind of funny how much of an outlier I'd be if I actually tried to do one of these.
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Saturday, 18 August 2012 04:42 (9 months ago) Permalink
which is a reason to do it imo, but having to add lots of albums really does make it more of a time-consuming pain in the ass
― some dude, Saturday, 18 August 2012 04:46 (9 months ago) Permalink
feels futile, too
― contenderizer, Saturday, 18 August 2012 04:47 (9 months ago) Permalink
like you know you're gonna wind up getting swept by kanye/arcadefire/neutralmilk/builttospill/blueprint/radiohead/pavement/etc
― contenderizer, Saturday, 18 August 2012 04:49 (9 months ago) Permalink
all his albums were pretty popular w/ the pfork crowd. but yeah i can totally buy an indie rock audience leaning towards the 'ambitious' rockist statement album that features bon iver, esp since it came out recently and it's strongest comp came out when pforks demo was in junior high. if you were to ask me which kanye would most appeal to a demo that's gonna vote ok computer the best album of the past 15+ years i would put my money on the one w/ the prominent king crimson sample. i wouldn't get my panties in a wad or kmt if/when it happened either.
― balls, Saturday, 18 August 2012 04:51 (9 months ago) Permalink
pavement's got no shot at this plz
― balls, Saturday, 18 August 2012 04:52 (9 months ago) Permalink
i did this but got angry at it bc of the whole "before you start take a tour through our greatest hits and we'll stick them at the top of your list" + it's really annoying moving all those albums to the bottom/almost crashed my browser so i just gave up with the ordering
― NASCAR, surfing, raising chickens, owning land (zachlyon), Saturday, 18 August 2012 04:53 (9 months ago) Permalink
if i didn't know pfork was too half assed and incompetent (amy phillips, senior news editor) i'd almost suspect the huge 90s gaps were left in to slant the results younger/more recent.
― balls, Saturday, 18 August 2012 04:55 (9 months ago) Permalink
it's weird for me to think of a kanye album unseating LR as the rock critic favorite, but yeah balls makes a pretty good case.
it's funny... by no other means is it kanye's most popular album, except that a lot of critics seem invested in willing it to be so
― a hoy hoy heat (J0rdan S.), Saturday, 18 August 2012 04:55 (9 months ago) Permalink
they're all ambitious rockist statement albums, though. and the jon brion thing seemed like a bigger deal at the time than the bon iver thing. but right yeah, being more recent may be the biggest factor in his favor (maybe? isn't this thing totally gonna be dominated by stuff from before, say, 2003?)
― some dude, Saturday, 18 August 2012 04:56 (9 months ago) Permalink
you can substitute "fans" for "critics" in that post and it all still applies
― a hoy hoy heat (J0rdan S.), Saturday, 18 August 2012 04:56 (9 months ago) Permalink
kanyetothe forum definitely gonna have a huge turnout in this thing
― some dude, Saturday, 18 August 2012 04:58 (9 months ago) Permalink
whats the difference amirite xp
― ticagrelor rotini (k3vin k.), Saturday, 18 August 2012 04:58 (9 months ago) Permalink
kanyetotheforum cares so much about pfork reviews
that place is hilarious/awesome
― a hoy hoy heat (J0rdan S.), Saturday, 18 August 2012 05:01 (9 months ago) Permalink
yeah i alluded to it w/ the nudge mention above (and it WAS convenient so i can't bitch too much) but i do think they stacked the deck having those staff lists there as a guide. if this thing gets that many votes beyond dorks and cranks a pretty big plurality is just gonna go thru those lists, click on the ones they know/like, get outraged at the omission of one or two faves and maybe bother to look them up and them maybe bother to reorder their list. it'll be interesting to see if the final list has a weird chronological bent to it at all, esp beyond the top 20 or so. i do know if the album's not in the database it's fucked on some level, looking at several lists i've seen olivia tremor control's from dusk at cubist castle entered in several slightly different ways which maybe the tallying will pick up or maybe not.
― balls, Saturday, 18 August 2012 05:02 (9 months ago) Permalink
if i didn't know pfork was too half assed and incompetent (amy phillips, senior news editor)
I'm not saying Pitchfork is a mansion on the hill or anything, but news and editorial have always been separate and completely different in tone.
― Chick-on-Chick-fil-A (Johnny Fever), Saturday, 18 August 2012 05:04 (9 months ago) Permalink
ktt is more (unintentionally) hilarious, less awesome. too much naive teenage angst to ever be taken seriously...but i doubt anyone here would be taking it seriously in the first place.
― ships and chicks, Saturday, 18 August 2012 05:07 (9 months ago) Permalink
i'd almost suspect the huge 90s gaps were left in to slant the results younger/more recent.
― balls, Friday, August 17, 2012 9:55 PM (4 minutes ago)
thought this abt several albums, especially hello nasty: "no conceivable reason to exclude this except to skew the results." other albums i was genuinely surprised i had to write in on a pitchfork ballot:
white stripes - de stijlblur - blurguided by voices - under the bushes under the starssleater-kinney - dig me out
― contenderizer, Saturday, 18 August 2012 05:07 (9 months ago) Permalink
@balls - They don't have listings for records they haven't reviewed so that's why there are pretty huge gaps. ie: hip hop earlier in it's history, metal when brandon wasn't involved. If I remember the early days it was a) much more reflective of ryans taste b) was lighter on album reviews? That said, there's no excuse for any website not exalting the Wrangler Brutes as saviours of modern music.
― Oblique Strategies, Saturday, 18 August 2012 05:08 (9 months ago) Permalink
yeah it always amused me that PF dropped the ball on even reviewing De Stijl when the buzz seemed huge with their readership at the time, and the White Blood Cells reviews was hilariously defensive about how hey we weren't sent promos of the first 2
― some dude, Saturday, 18 August 2012 05:09 (9 months ago) Permalink
I think they started with three a day early on and now they're up to five. Also, they purposely scrubbed a lot of the pre-millenium content from existence.
― Chick-on-Chick-fil-A (Johnny Fever), Saturday, 18 August 2012 05:10 (9 months ago) Permalink
a good amount of early millenium stuff too
― some dude, Saturday, 18 August 2012 05:12 (9 months ago) Permalink
o yeah alot of the stuff was reviewed at the time. trust me pfork reviewed pavement and gbv and olivia tremor control at the time. the first time i'd ever heard of pfork was 1998 from k3vin b4rnes bitching about what they'd written about him and asking him 'wtf is pitchfork? and why do you care what some dork on the internet wrote about you? besides everybody reads sonicnet anyway' and then by no more than two years later max it was huge, i can remember if you went into the university library and looked at a computers browser history someone had just been looking at either pfork or jambands.com and then a little later when i was working at wuxtry it was pretty much guaranteed that if pfork raved about something that shit was gonna sell, the only other thing that was guaranteed to move product like that was npr love. i wonder how much this is the case anymore. tbh more than the results i'd be curious to see what the median age for voters is, it's still big obv but i wonder about it's relevance. as welcome as the popist changes there have been it seems like it's lost some of its voice maybe or its authority.
― balls, Saturday, 18 August 2012 05:31 (9 months ago) Permalink
must've been a lot of pre-millennium tension.
<3, tricky.
― doglatting (jaymc), Saturday, 18 August 2012 05:32 (9 months ago) Permalink
xpost rah
― doglatting (jaymc), Saturday, 18 August 2012 05:33 (9 months ago) Permalink
it was pretty much guaranteed that if pfork raved about something that shit was gonna sell...i wonder how much this is the case anymore.
How much does anything sell anymore? I think it's cute that they still wait until around the time of street dates to put up album reviews.
― Johnny Fever, Saturday, 18 August 2012 05:39 (9 months ago) Permalink
i can also remember when cmj (remember cmj?) had their scandal w/ rigging their charts and falsifying data and stuff thinking that if pfork really wanted to kill cmj (at a time when that would've been an accomplishment) they would start doing college radio charts but now seeing how badly they've managed something as simple as this poll there is no way they could've ever managed something like that.
― balls, Saturday, 18 August 2012 05:41 (9 months ago) Permalink
I'm still wondering why you think this poll is badly managed? The decision to sweep old Pfork content under the rug was done a long time ago, and definitely without a poll of this nature in mind. To me, it appears they constructed a pretty user-friendly voting system (except for the scroll and drag ordering) and neither over nor underpublicized it.
― Johnny Fever, Saturday, 18 August 2012 05:45 (9 months ago) Permalink
ever notice how every ILM thread eventually comes around to talking about Kanye?― to welcome jer.fairall, pie is served. (jer.fairall), Tuesday, August 7, 2012 10:06 PM (1 week ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― to welcome jer.fairall, pie is served. (jer.fairall), Tuesday, August 7, 2012 10:06 PM (1 week ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― Johnny Fever, Saturday, 18 August 2012 05:49 (9 months ago) Permalink
weirdly i think the 'actually the internet HELPS record sales!' argument actually might apply to indie rock nevermind the big indie rock acts of today playing much much bigger rooms than the big indie rock acts of the 90s (nevermind the 80s) did.
― balls, Saturday, 18 August 2012 05:49 (9 months ago) Permalink
To me, it appears they constructed a pretty user-friendly voting system (except for the scroll and drag ordering) and neither over nor underpublicized it.
yeah, it seems pretty well managed to me. easy & fun to use (except for the bullshit pain of reordering, unless i missed something). plus p much guaranteed by design to subtly reinforce pitchfork's authority.
― contenderizer, Saturday, 18 August 2012 05:51 (9 months ago) Permalink
johnny when you construct a poll that has even the staff having to write in not remotely obscure choices in their top ten (among other problems) than that is a poorly constructed poll. nevermind other ways they play into default biases. this thing's alot closer to a drudgereport poll than quinnipac or whatever.
― balls, Saturday, 18 August 2012 05:56 (9 months ago) Permalink
What did you want them to do? Best I can tell, all their album matches (with art) come from the review database. I guess they could've set it up to scrape Amazon or something, but writing-in votes is easier for the builders and not hard at all for us.
― Johnny Fever, Saturday, 18 August 2012 05:59 (9 months ago) Permalink
They could've spent the last year behind the scenes building a database of everything someone might conceivably vote for in this poll they probably cooked up only a short while ago, OR they could just let people write in things. I'd have gone with the latter too.
― Johnny Fever, Saturday, 18 August 2012 06:01 (9 months ago) Permalink
last 'year' - really
― balls, Saturday, 18 August 2012 06:03 (9 months ago) Permalink
One way they could do it that once someone typed "Beastie Boys - Hello Nasty," it would be automatically entered into the database and come up as a suggestion for the next user. Maybe that would create an unusably large database, though?
― Tricky (from Massive Attack and his massively successful solo career) (jaymc), Saturday, 18 August 2012 06:03 (9 months ago) Permalink
...could do it IS that once...
― Tricky (from Massive Attack and his massively successful solo career) (jaymc), Saturday, 18 August 2012 06:04 (9 months ago) Permalink
― balls, Friday, August 17, 2012 11:32 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
RD has totally become a retroactive illmatic among the jay-z stans, if any unreviewed rap album makes it it'll be that one
― protected by kl0pper. stand back (D-40), Saturday, 18 August 2012 06:04 (9 months ago) Permalink
― balls, Saturday, August 18, 2012 12:56 AM (7 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
this is a poll of the albums in the current archive, not hard 2 understand
― protected by kl0pper. stand back (D-40), Saturday, 18 August 2012 06:06 (9 months ago) Permalink
Hate Kanye.
― Sick Mouthy (Scik Mouthy), Saturday, 18 August 2012 06:07 (9 months ago) Permalink
And good morning to you.
― Tricky (from Massive Attack and his massively successful solo career) (jaymc), Saturday, 18 August 2012 06:07 (9 months ago) Permalink
the problem isn't that the database would be large, but that it would be full of the album "smell of bals" by the artist "likk penis"
― contenderizer, Saturday, 18 August 2012 06:09 (9 months ago) Permalink
They could've spent the last year behind the scenes building a database of everything someone might conceivably vote for in this poll they probably cooked up only a short while ago, OR they could just let people write in things. I'd have gone with the latter too.― Johnny Fever, Saturday, August 18, 2012 2:01 AM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalinklast 'year' - really― balls, Saturday, August 18, 2012 2:03 AM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― Johnny Fever, Saturday, August 18, 2012 2:01 AM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― balls, Saturday, August 18, 2012 2:03 AM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
As someone whose job is creating a huge database of information for a living, with new information coming in all the time, I can tell you that it's a slow process. Places like Rate Your Music or Discogs weren't created in a week or two. Like I mentioned before, they probably could've set up something to scrape those databases or used Amazon as a backbone or any number of other options, but it's so much easier and cheaper to just let voters write-in albums on their ballots. Especially for something that's just a summer timekiller and a demographic info net.
― Johnny Fever, Saturday, 18 August 2012 06:11 (9 months ago) Permalink
yeah i know reasonable doubt's rep (not retroactive btw though i understand you were 8 at the time or whatever), i'm just thinking that it might not feature highly among a demo that tbh probably think the black album is the best jay-z album (if not "whichever one has 'niggas in paris' on it"), write-in factor (which it apparently might surprise some ppl actually works as a big hurdle for respondents in polling) seals it.
― balls, Saturday, 18 August 2012 06:12 (9 months ago) Permalink
xxp Fair point, but each person wouldn't necessarily know that their unmatched entries were being added.
― Tricky (from Massive Attack and his massively successful solo career) (jaymc), Saturday, 18 August 2012 06:12 (9 months ago) Permalink
johnny explaining why it's half assed or poorly designed isn't really working as an argument against 'this poll is half assed and poorly designed'. well aware that pfork is lazy and has no incentive to be otherwise (again, 'amy phillips, senior news editor').
― balls, Saturday, 18 August 2012 06:15 (9 months ago) Permalink
a) I don't know why you're taking such issue with the fact their database isn't all-encompassing.b) Did Amy Phillips shit on your rug? I know she wrote the terrible Sonic Youth article a decade ago, but damn.
― Johnny Fever, Saturday, 18 August 2012 06:20 (9 months ago) Permalink
http://peopleslist.pitchfork.com/list/090eb47f/
Didn't realise that the voting would close so soon, otherwise some of the final positions would change. Top 20 looks about right.
― fun loving and xtremely tolrant (Billy Dods), Saturday, 18 August 2012 06:46 (9 months ago) Permalink
i'm not taking such issue w/ the fact their database isn't all-encompassing. i merely pointed out that this poll is poorly designed and half assed in standard pfork fashion. to which capn-save-a-poll jumped in and said 'b-b-but doing it another way might require WORK!' to which i responded this doesn't really argue against my point at which time you decided to disagree w/ a straw man instead. if one of the interns in my lab read some tubes at the spec for me but didn't validate the spec ('work') and o yeah the readings were out of range and they couldn't be bothered to do dilutions ('work') and o yeah they read it at 450nm instead of 280nm i wouldn't regard the data as valid or their performance as anything other than poor and half assed. if the point of this exercise was to gather any kind of accurate data about their readers they've failed in nearly every way a poll can fail at this (all encompassing database wouldn't solve it and isn't necessary). if the point of this was to create some buzz and build the brand than maybe they've succeeded (big maybe). eg requiring all choices to be written in would help the former cause of data gathering but hurt the latter cause by making this exercise much less user friendly. i was merely noting that putting a finger on the scale, nevermind five fingers, can skew the results and that in this case that the results would probably be skewed in a way favorable to how pfork would like to present itself and that this might prompt suspicion if one wasn't pretty sure that this poor design was due to incompetence and not cunning.
― balls, Saturday, 18 August 2012 06:48 (9 months ago) Permalink
lol. poll more than likely did what it said out to do. complaints that it failed to be something else are beside the point.
― contenderizer, Saturday, 18 August 2012 06:54 (9 months ago) Permalink
capn-save-a-poll
lol @ me being nicknamed this after how I routinely create chaos in any poll Algerian Goalkeeper creates.
― Johnny Fever, Saturday, 18 August 2012 06:58 (9 months ago) Permalink
yeah if the poll was designed to get ppl on facebook and twitter to promote pitchfork it succeeded (maybe? i literally don't know anyone non-ilx who gave a fuck about this and i live in a place where their black kids review was a major topic of conversation), if the poll was designed to survey their readership's opinion of the best records of the pfork era and by doing so provide the world w/ a 'people's list' than it's a highly flawed (but not useless and for the triviality of the task almost definitely good enough) model.
― balls, Saturday, 18 August 2012 07:02 (9 months ago) Permalink
seriously nowhere near as perturbed by this issue as i am by this: the jason alexander body double in this nickelback video is a really poor jason alexander body double imo
― balls, Saturday, 18 August 2012 07:04 (9 months ago) Permalink
Just realised I voted for completely the wrong spoon album and forgot 'in a beautiful place out in the country'. Fuck. My. Life.
― Julian Asshole (dog latin), Saturday, 18 August 2012 07:47 (9 months ago) Permalink
Completely forgot Mahogany. Bah.
Would really like a cross-rating system whereby one could check one's musical compatibility with other posters (e.g. in order to decide whether to take their musical opinions seriously or not) that came up with a percentile match based on albums and/or artists listed.
(Would also like ability to put in a facility for posters' particular bugbears like "no rap except Kanye" mentioned above or "has no female artists in their top 10/fewer than 10% in whole list" for me or "slags off Radiohead but still put OK Computer in their list" for Melissa or Turangalila)
― Shepton Mullet (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Saturday, 18 August 2012 08:12 (9 months ago) Permalink
― fun loving and xtremely tolrant (Billy Dods)
Great list. Especially pleased to see another vote for Beyond The Sun and a great choice for your number one.
― Kitchen Person, Saturday, 18 August 2012 08:14 (9 months ago) Permalink
My female artists as a proportion of overall list is 23% (counting stuff like Hole and Gang Gang Dance). Not sure if that's low or high or what.
― Tim F, Saturday, 18 August 2012 08:30 (9 months ago) Permalink
If I were at work, I'd get out a spreadsheet and work out the average (I should have started one while I was bored at work yesterday.) I have a gut feeling it's higher than average (from a lifetime spent calculating the female content of critics' lists, it's often a depressing 10% - obviously depending on genre. Pop and R&B lists tend to slant higher.)
― Shepton Mullet (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Saturday, 18 August 2012 08:34 (9 months ago) Permalink
I only placed 17 female artists in my top 90, so not that good really.
― pandemic, Saturday, 18 August 2012 08:35 (9 months ago) Permalink
It's an impossible percentage to even calculate because (this comes up every time) how do you even define "female artist" - like, can you count a sole female singer fronting an otherwise all male band? What about duos of one female/one male songwriter (an arrangement which makes up a great deal of my list.) What about artists that are two blokes, but routinely use a shifting series of female singers? (Thinking of Basement Jaxx e.g.) Is that better because female voices are included, or is it worse because the blokes are the named artists while the women are so anonymised they don't even get named? What counts? Does having a female violin player in your backing band count? I only know what doesn't count.
I mean, I had a bit of a panic when I got to about 40 and I was all "OMG, I have included ~no men~!!!" and went to throw in some Aphex Twin and FlyLo, but then realised that SVIIB, The Knife, Medicine, Goldfrapp - the bulk of the artists in my top 10 were female/male duos.
But I do think that it says something about a person's taste, and what they recognise as worth counting when I see a list which is 90% all-male groups. It's not even that I think they're deliberately excluding females - and in some ways throwing in a token is kind of worse, because it's a kind of "look, I've addressed this!" with a last-minute impulse when really they haven't addressed it at all. It's more the idea that in their day to day listening and counting and judging-of-merit they just do not encounter or include female voices at all. That does say a lot to me about a person and what they value.
Anyway, it's an observation, not an invitation to a clusterfuck, so please take it with several thousand grains of salt.
― Shepton Mullet (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Saturday, 18 August 2012 08:54 (9 months ago) Permalink
― balls, Saturday, August 18, 2012 1:12 AM (2 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
i was 13. & no, reasonable doubt was not considered the new illmatic at the time
― protected by kl0pper. stand back (D-40), Saturday, 18 August 2012 08:55 (9 months ago) Permalink
no one gave 2 fuxx about jay-z like THAT till hard knock life
― Tim F, Saturday, August 18, 2012 4:30 AM (2 hours ago) Bookmark
that strikes me as low because you seem to heavily favor female artists (compared to someone like me, anyway, and i'm at 17%)
― some dude, Saturday, 18 August 2012 11:30 (9 months ago) Permalink
gah, came to the library this morning just to do this (stupid work PC has such an out of date browser it couldn't handle the software though I could view everyone else's lists) only to find that entries are closed. Stupid pfork.
― Jeff W, Saturday, 18 August 2012 11:31 (9 months ago) Permalink
yeah I've been away for a week and spent this morning reading this thread and looking at everyone's lists and jotting some favourites down into a text file to do my own... and then realised halfway down the thread voting is closed.
I mean I am not a super-regular p4k reader so, sure, the poll wasn't intended for me anyway, but I liked the delusion that I could bump some favourites up the ranking or that a treasured obscurity would somehow creep into someone else's worldview because of being at #37 on a list compiled by someone they've never heard of
― still small voice of clam (a passing spacecadet), Saturday, 18 August 2012 11:33 (9 months ago) Permalink
I was prepared to come in here all defensive about how I listen to a ton of female artists even if my ballot doesn't necessarily reflect that, but then I counted and realized that over half of my votes went to solo females/female-fronted bands/male-female duos and that my #1 was Charlotte Hatherley so I figure I'm off the hook. I'll blame any dearth of racial diversity on Pitchfork, though (they didn't have any of the '60s-'70s r&b I've spent most of the year listening to in their database).
― Old Lunch, Saturday, 18 August 2012 11:45 (9 months ago) Permalink
ooh, Sick Mouthy's first list is loaded with albums i like! probably only a handful are what i would actually put in my top 100 but if the one's i know already reflect your taste i should probably get to downloading some of yer recommended indie electronica selections post haste
― messiahwannabe, Saturday, 18 August 2012 13:25 (9 months ago) Permalink
I lol'd:http://peopleslist.pitchfork.com/list/11fc973b/
― Tricky (from Massive Attack and his massively successful solo career) (jaymc), Saturday, 18 August 2012 13:32 (9 months ago) Permalink
I just got in under the wire, which means I can't tamper with it. Which is both annoying and a relief. https://peopleslist.pitchfork.com/list/b8261215/
― DavidM, Saturday, 18 August 2012 13:36 (9 months ago) Permalink
i only wound up with 17 female artists (or bands w prominent female members) in my list of 100. while that's a disappointingly low ratio, it's probably an accurate reflection of my day-to-day listening. to some extent that's a product of genre. i like metal, garage rock and "american primitive" guitar stuff, genres in which female artists are a decided minority. nevertheless, that feels like an excuse as much as an explanation.
― contenderizer, Saturday, 18 August 2012 13:38 (9 months ago) Permalink
they didn't have any of the '60s-'70s r&b I've spent most of the year listening to in their database
Probably because '60s-'70s R&B doesn't really fit the remit of a '96-'11 poll.
― emil.y, Saturday, 18 August 2012 13:46 (9 months ago) Permalink
Joeks, emil.y. Joeks.
― Old Lunch, Saturday, 18 August 2012 13:47 (9 months ago) Permalink
32 of my albums were by female artists or female-anchored bands.
― a regina spektor is haunting europe (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Saturday, 18 August 2012 13:51 (9 months ago) Permalink
I just checked my list and I'm actually quite shocked that 51% is made up of all-male groups/male solo artists, whereas only 8% is all-female. The remaining 41% of mixed artists I divided into completely mixed (15%), male-fronted (12%) and female-fronted (14%), though my definition of 'fronted' kind of changed depending on the sort of act...
― emil.y, Saturday, 18 August 2012 13:56 (9 months ago) Permalink
Just realized that much of my 'female-fronted' percentage is represented by Broadcast and Deerhoof, who collectively compose a whopping 10% of my ballot. Guess I'm a fan.
― Old Lunch, Saturday, 18 August 2012 14:05 (9 months ago) Permalink
Now That's What I Call Female-Fronted Bands!, Vol. 32
90% of my album covers were female-fronted, or specifically featured the front of a female. The other 10% featured penises.
― Josh in Chicago, Saturday, 18 August 2012 14:09 (9 months ago) Permalink
doing this I realised I listened to a lot fewer women ten years ago
― ogmor, Saturday, 18 August 2012 14:11 (9 months ago) Permalink
continuing defensively from my last post...
i listen to rap more than R&B, guitar rock at least as much as modern indie, electronic music and chartpop. these are habits as much as they are considered expressions of taste. not sure whether i'm attracted to male-dominated genres because or in spite of the gender imbalance, but that feels like a dodge and it's beside the point anyway. i could have made room for portishead's third, melt banana's cell-scape, joanna newsom's milk-eyed mender, cat power's moon pix, goldfrapp's felt mountain and the fourth angel in heavy syrup album, all of which i've spent a good deal of time with during the last decade and a half.
and the bellrays' let it blast is a top-ten favorite that i just plain forgot. fuck. what i get for doing this at the last minute >:[
― contenderizer, Saturday, 18 August 2012 14:41 (9 months ago) Permalink
I would really love to see the compiled ILXor-specific results of this particular poll, if anyone has scads of free time and the hyperanal determination to see it through.
― Old Lunch, Saturday, 18 August 2012 14:44 (9 months ago) Permalink
I don't think I'd ever give anybody the business over a tendency towards listening to more music from a particular gender or race than another (although a Skr3wdr1ver album in their collection would certainly be cause for alarm). I probably tend to listen to a fair number of female-oriented artists because I'm not a very dude-y brah, but I'm sure a lot of guys are probably much more drawn to testosterock. I don't tend to listen to much current r&b or hip hop, but (as hinted at above) old school r&b is very nearly my personal popular music high-water mark. At any rate, I'm not sure that a whole lot can be legitimately discerned about gender/racial bias based on the 50-100 albums that someone cherrypicked from a 15-year span of time.
― Old Lunch, Saturday, 18 August 2012 14:56 (9 months ago) Permalink
It's an impossible percentage to even calculate because (this comes up every time) how do you even define "female artist" - like, can you count a sole female singer fronting an otherwise all male band? What about duos of one female/one male songwriter (an arrangement which makes up a great deal of my list.) What about artists that are two blokes, but routinely use a shifting series of female singers?
Yeah I had this problem - I'm on about 20% but quite a few of those are bands featuring a combination of male and female voices (e.g. Low, New Pornographers) or female vocalists collaborating with male producers (Aaliyah, Electrik Red).
― Gavin, Leeds, Saturday, 18 August 2012 14:58 (9 months ago) Permalink
Never mind the fact that there are very few legitimately solo albums and therefore very few albums sans artistic collaborators. And artistic collaborators tend at least half of the time to be male. I can't even imagine what might count as a legitimately female-only album on my ballot.
― Old Lunch, Saturday, 18 August 2012 15:07 (9 months ago) Permalink
More female producers and session musicians now!
― Old Lunch, Saturday, 18 August 2012 15:08 (9 months ago) Permalink
Considering this is a "people's poll" and not an official critic's end-of-year/end-of-decade round-up, I don't think you should feel pressured toward gender- or genre-neutrality.
― Ówen P., Saturday, 18 August 2012 15:12 (9 months ago) Permalink
I mean I have a "where's the rap? where are the girls? where are the gays?" stump but if I were participating in this thing there wouldn't be any rap between 2001 and 2010 because I didn't listen to rap during those years.
― Ówen P., Saturday, 18 August 2012 15:13 (9 months ago) Permalink
I dunno. On the contrary, I think that those cherry-picking and self selecting exercises are exactly where people's subconscious biases pop up the most.
Like, no one at all should feel pressured to represent themselves as listening to music that they don't. That's absurd. But recognising that those biases are there, and that they do influence what we expose ourselves to and what we value - I think that's important.
But anyway, the point was mostly that, for me, if someone has an exclusively 90% male list, our tastes are unlikely to overlap and that's not someone whose choices or recommendations I'm likely to pay attention to. That's not a value judgement on a person or on a person's taste, it's just whether their guidance is likely to be useful to me or helpful to me or not.
― Shepton Mullet (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Saturday, 18 August 2012 15:16 (9 months ago) Permalink
I'm bemused and impressed at the popularity of this thing, I have such trouble making even an end-of-year list and I can't imagine how an individual can look back on fifteen years of music and say "this is #1". Some pretty cool lists, though.
― Ówen P., Saturday, 18 August 2012 15:19 (9 months ago) Permalink
I love maura's list, it's so fun it could double as a personals ad
ILX0rs love making lists. Don't get why that's such a mystery!
I can never do an end of year list - the only one I did last year was kind of a joke to knock a point home. But it is fun to read and criticise them.
― Shepton Mullet (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Saturday, 18 August 2012 15:26 (9 months ago) Permalink
I do them half-heartedly, I usually just name all my friends' bands so I don't get any angry e-mails when any of them read it. (Half-hearted only toward list-making, it's not that I only half-heartedly like their records).
― Ówen P., Saturday, 18 August 2012 15:34 (9 months ago) Permalink
I put two of yr albums in my top 50 iirc!
― Tricky (from Massive Attack and his massively successful solo career) (jaymc), Saturday, 18 August 2012 15:40 (9 months ago) Permalink
I appreciate your sentiment but I don't care. Not a dis to you! I don't like lists or rating systems.
― Ówen P., Saturday, 18 August 2012 15:52 (9 months ago) Permalink
I can't help but feel skeptical about these canon lists, firstly b/c the part of my brain that listens to rap isn't the same part of my brain that listens to Supersilent, secondly b/c the results suggest that a zeitgeist-harnessing record like "Funeral" is somehow more valuable than another local record I love so much more (Hank's "How to prosper in the coming bad years" for example), thirdly b/c all it really ends up being is a contest between "Ok Computer" and "Kid A" and fuck it I haven't listened to either record in over ten years.
― Ówen P., Saturday, 18 August 2012 15:53 (9 months ago) Permalink
Anyway I'm just hungover and grumpy and I am loving reading these lists, it's cool to see Fonal getting such love from ILXors
― Ówen P., Saturday, 18 August 2012 15:54 (9 months ago) Permalink
Nah, I get it. I mean, it's fun putting together these lists, but only because I try not to get too worked up over the likelihood that I'm one of maybe three people who would think to vote for Zero 7's Yeah Ghost in a ballot like this.
― Old Lunch, Saturday, 18 August 2012 15:59 (9 months ago) Permalink
Canon lists really aren't helpful on an aggregated level, they really aren't.
But individual lists can be helpful for the reasons I stated above - that they reveal a person's tastes and foibles and whatnot. Not (as people have often interpreted me as doing) to judge them and go "YOU ARE A HORRIBLE PERSON FOR NOT LIKING ANY WOMEN" (though that is problematic on a cultural level, which is another story which we have discussed too many times already) but more just to figure out whose tastes are aligned to mine, in terms of who to trust when they make recommendations. Given how much my personal taste is "wow, I just really like the sound of female vocalists" then for me, finding someone who also appreciates that in music, too, that's a plus for me. Or wubby synths. Or tremoloed guitars. Or hopefully all three together.
Like, in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't really matter if a person picks OK Computer or Kid A. But that weirdo who goes "you know what? I like Amnesiac (or Hail To The Thief) better!" is the kinda person I want to talk to.
I wasn't even trying to make a list of "these are the best records ever" I was trying to make a list of "if someone wanted a representation of What I Like in music, well, here it is."
― Shepton Mullet (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Saturday, 18 August 2012 16:00 (9 months ago) Permalink
I mean, aggregated lists can show you the bias of a culture.
― Shepton Mullet (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Saturday, 18 August 2012 16:02 (9 months ago) Permalink
But mostly it's like, if I look at a list - like Tom E's or DJP's or Melissa's - and I know that I like at least half of what they have up there. It makes me curious to check out the other half of what they have listed to see if it's also something I'd like.
― Shepton Mullet (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Saturday, 18 August 2012 16:03 (9 months ago) Permalink
Yeah, I was super interested in looking at ILXors lists-- I love that you got Electrik Red and "W" on yours, WCC, those are awesome underrated records-- but then I looked at some P4K staffers lists and got poo-faced
― Ówen P., Saturday, 18 August 2012 16:05 (9 months ago) Permalink
i didn't know this had a deadline, i was going to start mine today
oh wellll
― i'm a housewife, an artist, and a snow leopard (The Brainwasher), Saturday, 18 August 2012 16:29 (9 months ago) Permalink
damn, was excited to see your list when i saw that you posted on the thread
― some dude, Saturday, 18 August 2012 16:30 (9 months ago) Permalink
tbh, someone probably should've started a thread for this before yesterday.
― Johnny Fever, Saturday, 18 August 2012 16:43 (9 months ago) Permalink
Yeah, by the time my brother posted his list on Facebook, I figured the news had already come and gone on ILM.
― Old Lunch, Saturday, 18 August 2012 16:46 (9 months ago) Permalink
there was talk on the PF thread about it before this thread
― some dude, Saturday, 18 August 2012 16:48 (9 months ago) Permalink
Here's mine:http://peopleslist.pitchfork.com/list/5e340118/
I didn't get a chance to rearrange order and add more albums because the applet kept crashing when I was voting but the top 10 is pretty much in order.
― Moka, Saturday, 18 August 2012 16:57 (9 months ago) Permalink
I picked albums from their recommended top lists to increase the chances of getting them in the final countdown.
― Moka, Saturday, 18 August 2012 17:05 (9 months ago) Permalink
See, the point of these lists to me is (for example) noticing that this Paavoharju band that you've never heard of is popping up on every other ballot and subsequently listening to their songs on YouTube and realizing that you've found something new and awesome that's very firmly up your alley.
― Old Lunch, Saturday, 18 August 2012 17:08 (9 months ago) Permalink
imo the most intriguing&useful lists aren't the ones which chime w/ a significant portion of my current tastes
― ogmor, Saturday, 18 August 2012 17:15 (9 months ago) Permalink
^^ obv there are many things that have been forgotten, but these should've definitely been included :
gas - popmouse on mars - autoditacker / niun niggungbrandy - full moontlc - fanmailstereolab - dots & loopsboredoms - rebore vol. 0gang gang dance - god's moneykevin drumm - sheer hellish miasmaannie - anniemaljim o' rourke - bad timing / insignificancedialing in - ketalysergichmeta mother
and am i the only one who has a tendency to think about albums post-00 way more easily than the ones from the 90's? like if it's a best of the decade/noughties kinda list?
― rusty_allen, Saturday, 18 August 2012 17:19 (9 months ago) Permalink
also, hole - celebrity skin
(how could i forget that?)
― rusty_allen, Saturday, 18 August 2012 17:20 (9 months ago) Permalink
I did too. And Madvillain.
― a regina spektor is haunting europe (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Saturday, 18 August 2012 17:24 (9 months ago) Permalink
I hope that when Pitchfork anounces the results, they also post an additional list of top 50 or 100 albums not in their database. I'd actually be most curious about the results of that.
― MarkoP, Saturday, 18 August 2012 17:43 (9 months ago) Permalink
Thought I had more time for this too--thought I'd voted for Aquemini but it's not there, and there's lots I'd delete, ah well.
― Pete Scholtes, Saturday, 18 August 2012 21:35 (9 months ago) Permalink
lol, i put the death album in there w the wrong title. it's for the whole world to see, not for all the world to see. but it should have been in the database, dammit. they reviewed it and everything.
― contenderizer, Saturday, 18 August 2012 21:38 (9 months ago) Permalink
70.
Forgot the last Broadcast album, agh, fuck me, just fuck me.
I will be totally ready for a singles list, should they ever do one.
― Michael Daddino, Saturday, 18 August 2012 23:21 (9 months ago) Permalink
Oh god didn't realise TLC - Fanmail was in the right time period.
― Shepton Mullet (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Saturday, 18 August 2012 23:24 (9 months ago) Permalink
well, last night's deadline hit me in the head before i could rearrange shit and add/delete more stuff so this pretty much looks like a work in progress
but anyway http://peopleslist.pitchfork.com/list/71a7ac6b/
― cock chirea, Sunday, 19 August 2012 01:23 (9 months ago) Permalink
2 that i def forgot that are prob top-30 ish for me are
rachel stevens - come and get itmagik markers - boss
― johnny crunch, Sunday, 19 August 2012 01:26 (9 months ago) Permalink
I will be totally ready for a singles list, should they ever do one. --Michael Daddino
you can just post your singles list, you don't have to wait for them, you know
― Fareed Zaireeka (Whiney G. Weingarten), Sunday, 19 August 2012 01:32 (9 months ago) Permalink
lol can you imagine if they did a singles poll like this, the only songs pre-loaded as options would be songs covered in 'we are the world' and 'the forkcast'
― some dude, Sunday, 19 August 2012 01:41 (9 months ago) Permalink
magik markers - boss
― johnny crunch, Saturday, August 18, 2012 6:26 PM (2 hours ago)
goddammit, i forgot that one too >:[
― contenderizer, Sunday, 19 August 2012 04:25 (9 months ago) Permalink
I started writing this in the box here but it started getting long so I figured I'd put it on my blog, but here are some thoughts on whether to not my list makes me a racist, sexist scumbag - http://sickmouthy.com/2012/08/19/am-i-a-racist-sexist-scumbag-when-it-comes-to-being-a-music-fan/
― Sick Mouthy (Scik Mouthy), Sunday, 19 August 2012 07:51 (9 months ago) Permalink
That is the most unhelpful, reductive way of putting that you possibly could have found.
This is what is so frustrating about this conversations. That you can try to have these nuanced conversations about personal taste and unconscious bias - and all you hear of that conversation is "someone's calling me a racist, sexist scumbag" ? When that was the thinking that was never said, and I went to great pains to say that was NOT what I was saying?
But that's how you frame it? Really?
― Shepton Mullet (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Sunday, 19 August 2012 08:13 (9 months ago) Permalink
I thought the post was pretty nuanced and interesting tbh, especially in the context of unconscious biases.
― Legendary General Cypher Raige (Gukbe), Sunday, 19 August 2012 08:28 (9 months ago) Permalink
I'm sorry WCC, framing it in those terms is a clumsy, pseudo-defensive shorthand on my part and is the result of a little socio-cultural guilt, an attempt to confront those terms head-on and thus make it NOT be about those issues as much as if they'd gone unwritten and ended up inferred, which I clearly failed at from your perspective, plus a bit of antagonistic top-and-tailing to try and drag people outside of this thread into the debate (which it's done elsewhere a bit already). Like it or not, those words get attention in the way that titling the post "a nuanced discussion of gender bias in my musical taste" just wouldn't have done. I have a natural inclination for Daily Mail-esque click bait SEO when it comes to my blog which can be counter productive. I hope the actual content of the post is a bit more thoughtful.
xpost; thank you.
― Sick Mouthy (Scik Mouthy), Sunday, 19 August 2012 08:41 (9 months ago) Permalink
I wonder how much class is an unspoken bias, too? Much harder to get a grip on than race or gender. I don't think there's much music in my selection that I'd codify (no that I quite know how I would do so) as "working class" or "upper class".
― Sick Mouthy (Scik Mouthy), Sunday, 19 August 2012 09:35 (9 months ago) Permalink
― some dude, Saturday, August 18, 2012 11:30 AM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
Yeah I was kinda surprised myself. Chalk it up to the baleful influence of dance music and rap I guess (though I did vote for Foxy Brown and a ridiculous 3 Missy albums).
― Tim F, Sunday, 19 August 2012 11:14 (9 months ago) Permalink
i only finally knuckled down and put one of these together because i felt a certain professional obligation (guess i've just lost the list-making jones), but in doing so i realized that the late 90s have become a giant blank spot in my memory. albums keep popping up on people's lists that are total how-could-i-forget-that head-slappers, and whole swathes of stuff that dominated the pop culture discussion in those years has just seemingly evaporated from my brain, whether i would have included it or not. on the other hand, i had to go over almost every professional top ten i've submitted in the last ten years to even remember some of my "favorite" albums from this decade, so maybe i've just developed early onset dementia.
― big-mammed punisher (strongo hulkington's ghost dad), Sunday, 19 August 2012 12:53 (9 months ago) Permalink
I learned that I still listen to late nineties albums more than mid 2000's ones.
― a regina spektor is haunting europe (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, 19 August 2012 13:09 (9 months ago) Permalink
i only finally knuckled down and put one of these together because i felt a certain professional obligation (guess i've just lost the list-making jones), but in doing so i realized that the late 90s have become a giant blank spot in my memory. albums keep popping up on people's lists that are total how-could-i-forget-that head-slappers, and whole swathes of stuff that dominated the pop culture discussion in those years has just seemingly evaporated from my brain, whether i would have included it or not. on the other hand, i had to go over almost every professional top ten i've submitted in the last ten years to even remember some of my "favorite" albums from this decade, so maybe i've just developed early onset dementia.― big-mammed punisher (strongo hulkington's ghost dad), Sunday, 19 August 2012 12:53 (28 minutes ago) Permalink
― big-mammed punisher (strongo hulkington's ghost dad), Sunday, 19 August 2012 12:53 (28 minutes ago) Permalink
I'm similar. Maybe it's something to do with the period 98-00 not really being defined by a handy musical 'era' - i.e. I'm at pains to think of it the same way I do 94-96, which to me is epitomised by BRITPOP! TRIPHOP! DRUM'n'BASS! etc. etc. There were still plenty of decent albums going around in the late 90s, just no handy category to draw memory from, discounting things like garage which wasn't a big album genre anyway.
― Julian Asshole (dog latin), Sunday, 19 August 2012 13:27 (9 months ago) Permalink
ugh, sorry, what a horribly formed 'post'
― Julian Asshole (dog latin), Sunday, 19 August 2012 13:28 (9 months ago) Permalink
All caps when you spell the album's name (anyone else put Madvillainy at #1?):https://peopleslist.pitchfork.com/list/cf710159/
― Groove is in the shart (Craig D.), Sunday, 19 August 2012 13:44 (9 months ago) Permalink
Hi Craig, sorry I missed you last night
― Ówen P., Sunday, 19 August 2012 14:16 (9 months ago) Permalink
No prob, Owen (btw, I'm contemplating hitching a ride to Hamilton in a few weeks to watch you et tes mouches play--have had fun at Supercrawl before </thread derail>)
― Groove is in the shart (Craig D.), Sunday, 19 August 2012 14:45 (9 months ago) Permalink
nice to see Tim Hecker on so many lists; i don't think he's discussed much on ilm.
― get you ass to mahs (abanana), Sunday, 19 August 2012 14:54 (9 months ago) Permalink
Craig good on you for remembering "Music is rotted one note" that is a forgotten former love if I've ever seen one
― Ówen P., Sunday, 19 August 2012 15:01 (9 months ago) Permalink
I must admit, if I'd bothered to write in/add records not already in the P4K ballot system database my list would've looked pretty different (and would've taken hours longer to complete).
― Groove is in the shart (Craig D.), Sunday, 19 August 2012 15:14 (9 months ago) Permalink
what surprised me about my list, timeline-wise, was 2003-'05 having a heavier presence than '00-'02, which was not the case when i did a '00s decade list a couple years ago.
― some dude, Sunday, 19 August 2012 15:59 (9 months ago) Permalink
1999 to 2002 pretty much killed everything else on mine, which i was not surprised about in the least.
― big-mammed punisher (strongo hulkington's ghost dad), Sunday, 19 August 2012 16:03 (9 months ago) Permalink
Wendy Van Camp | August 19, 2012 at 3:31 pm | Reply If you want to try some interesting female singers, I can recommend “Indigo Girls” to you. Excellent vocals. I found your conjecture about if you are a racist or not to be interesting. Why think that about yourself? If you are white and male does society automatically feel there is something wrong with you and you MUST feel guilt about the race and gender to which you were born? Is that not also racism? Perhaps it is time that we all feel equally good about ourselves. Dr. King said it best: let the measure of a man’s character be how we judge, not the color of his skin.
― ticagrelor rotini (k3vin k.), Sunday, 19 August 2012 16:03 (9 months ago) Permalink
Gotta love blog comments.
― Sick Mouthy (Scik Mouthy), Sunday, 19 August 2012 16:04 (9 months ago) Permalink
the scales have fallen from my eyes
― contenderizer, Sunday, 19 August 2012 16:05 (9 months ago) Permalink
so who is wendy van camp on ilx again?
― big-mammed punisher (strongo hulkington's ghost dad), Sunday, 19 August 2012 16:05 (9 months ago) Permalink
i don't care if you're black, white, purple, indigo
― some dude, Sunday, 19 August 2012 16:06 (9 months ago) Permalink
I thought it was you.
― Sick Mouthy (Scik Mouthy), Sunday, 19 August 2012 16:06 (9 months ago) Permalink
if you sing about your penis or putting it in things, fuck you
― big-mammed punisher (strongo hulkington's ghost dad), Sunday, 19 August 2012 16:07 (9 months ago) Permalink
― balls, Sunday, 19 August 2012 16:08 (9 months ago) Permalink
I can recommend “Indigo Girls” to you. Excellent vocals.
otm
― Gurdas Mane (crüt), Sunday, 19 August 2012 16:10 (9 months ago) Permalink
indigo girls laid the groundwork for dave fm
― balls, Sunday, 19 August 2012 16:15 (9 months ago) Permalink
Harmony In Ultraviolet was one of the last albums I cut from my ballot, unfortunately.
― Old Lunch, Sunday, 19 August 2012 17:17 (9 months ago) Permalink
you know i think this whole thing was awesome b/c all weekend i've just been listening to records on my list and on your guys' lists and thinking "this album rules" to myself every few seconds
― emo canon in twee major (BradNelson), Sunday, 19 August 2012 19:04 (9 months ago) Permalink
like any project that makes me feel compelled to listen to celebrity skin, beaucoup fish and folie a deux in a day is a totally worthwhile project
― emo canon in twee major (BradNelson), Sunday, 19 August 2012 19:05 (9 months ago) Permalink
somehow i'd missed that you posted yours itt, awesome list
― some dude, Sunday, 19 August 2012 19:08 (9 months ago) Permalink
i need to scour this thread just for list links and paste them into a word file.
― hamlisch kilgour (get bent), Sunday, 19 August 2012 19:10 (9 months ago) Permalink
follow up to last post: i tried pasting a bunch of links into this thread but i got an error message.
― hamlisch kilgour (get bent), Sunday, 19 August 2012 19:35 (9 months ago) Permalink
I started to analyze the breakdown of my list but basically my tastes are not that exciting to women (only one girlfriend I've had in my lifetime has enjoyed Swans or minimalist drone) so it makes sense that the gender bias would skew heavily male (interestingly though the top ten contains around a third of the women in my list). Also, I hate hip hop & my desire to not muddy my poll w/ re-issues meant that I couldn't include any of the afrobeat / ethiopiques reissues or mississippi records / soul jazz compilations which would have hugely added to the racial diversity of my list.
So there you go. That's my excuse and I'm sticking to it.
An interesting question though. Does anyone know what percentage of records made overall were by women? I fell like that base level would be an interesting figure to compare the percentages people feel guilty about.
― Oblique Strategies, Sunday, 19 August 2012 19:37 (9 months ago) Permalink
basically my tastes are not that exciting to women (only one girlfriend I've had in my lifetime has enjoyed Swans or minimalist drone)
i am a woman and this is v. exciting to me.
― hamlisch kilgour (get bent), Sunday, 19 August 2012 19:38 (9 months ago) Permalink
I am womanhear me drone
― a regina spektor is haunting europe (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, 19 August 2012 19:41 (9 months ago) Permalink
at this point in my life, the "music enjoyed by my girlfriends" list is probably a lot broader than "music enjoyed by me".
― contenderizer, Sunday, 19 August 2012 19:44 (9 months ago) Permalink
amount of women in your record collection seems very very tied to what types of music you prefer, since the participation of female musicians varies pretty hugely from one genre to another.
how much the musicians you listen to 'look like you' (racially, culturally, etc.) is a little more complicated. my listening habits might be "diverse" by some standard but it's all relative, i know i'm pretty incurious about music from outside America and especially non-English speaking countries.
― some dude, Sunday, 19 August 2012 19:46 (9 months ago) Permalink
my desire to not muddy my poll w/ re-issues meant that I couldn't include any of the afrobeat / ethiopiques reissues or mississippi records / soul jazz compilations
God yeah this would have made things even more difficult - I allowed myself compilations/retrospective releases but only if the material on them came inside the '96-'11 time frame. No shortage of great reissue labels these days.
― Gavin, Leeds, Sunday, 19 August 2012 19:49 (9 months ago) Permalink
I did my best to leave out reissues but had Calling out of Context on mine because I couldn't omit it and it was never previously released anyway, also African Scream Contest because well not sure.
― Cong rat ululations (seandalai), Sunday, 19 August 2012 20:02 (9 months ago) Permalink
It pained me to leave out Arthur Russell but if I'd started w. reissues I think at least 95% of my list would have been recorded pre: 1985 which would have defeated the point no matter how accurate an insight into my actual listening habits it would have been.
― Oblique Strategies, Sunday, 19 August 2012 20:07 (9 months ago) Permalink
they should've let us know ahead of time, if you want to be more anonymous you should sign in through twitter
― billstevejim, Sunday, 19 August 2012 20:11 (9 months ago) Permalink
i went with gavin's rule, though i made space for death's for the whole world to see, which wasn't issued in any form until 2009. probably should have included calling out of context for similar reasons. shangaan electro was the only genre compilation i included, allowed because the tracks it comprises are contemporary.
― contenderizer, Sunday, 19 August 2012 20:16 (9 months ago) Permalink
Yeah I had Shangaan Electro too, don't see any reason to exclude compilations of new stuff.
― Cong rat ululations (seandalai), Sunday, 19 August 2012 20:27 (9 months ago) Permalink
Craig good on you for remembering "Music is rotted one note" that is a forgotten former love if I've ever seen one― Ówen P., Sunday, 19 August 2012 15:01 (6 hours ago) Permalink
― Ówen P., Sunday, 19 August 2012 15:01 (6 hours ago) Permalink
The definition of a 'grower'. Sounds better each time I've given it a go every time since it came out all those years ago. Wish I'd voted it.
Also, I swear I voted for Arcturus's The Sham Mirrors, but I think it got lost down a plughole.
― Julian Asshole (dog latin), Sunday, 19 August 2012 21:52 (9 months ago) Permalink
Re: compilations - I had to include bangs & works ii and 2manydjs as I see them both as important in shaping sounds, attitudes etc
― Julian Asshole (dog latin), Sunday, 19 August 2012 22:05 (9 months ago) Permalink
UGH I forgot Charlotte Hatherley's The Deep Blue. Bummer. Love that album.
My thoughts on @Sick Mouthy's blog post abt gender/race/class in yr music taste, this bit in particular:
“I’m a white male 30-something and I mostly listen to music made by people like me”; when couched in that terminology, it doesn’t seem outrageous at all.
Idk, man, one (perhaps the biggest) appeal of pop music for me is engaging w/ the world-view of completely DIFFERENT ppl. So listening to Robyn, Dizzee Rascal, Pistol Annies takes me into their worlds, as it were. And hopefully makes me understand them, or their image of themselves, a bit better. But tbh, one of my concerns regarding my taste is the propensity to fetishize these different (more 'authentic', 'relevant') experiences, w/o really understanding them.
Anyway, I agree w/ the "I’m trying not to be. Are you?" mssg. You like what you like, and self-awareness about yr preferences is always A GOOD THING.
― Mercer Finn, Monday, 20 August 2012 04:37 (9 months ago) Permalink
Kinda feel left out that I wasn't compelled to do this until exactly after the poll closed... should I post a handmade one here anyway or is it old news by now?
― Evan, Monday, 20 August 2012 04:41 (9 months ago) Permalink
Sorry that was a bit long. For the record, there are plenty of whiny middle-class English boys on my list, so I'm not casting stones at anyone
― Mercer Finn, Monday, 20 August 2012 04:43 (9 months ago) Permalink
xpost - sure, do one anyway.
― ezra kleine nachtmusik (get bent), Monday, 20 August 2012 04:43 (9 months ago) Permalink
Alright I'll give it a shot!
― Evan, Monday, 20 August 2012 04:47 (9 months ago) Permalink
Yes is absolutely OTM and a big part of it. The part about attempting to engage with the worldview of people who are not like you. Not as a fetishised others, but in an attempt to understand and normalise the experience of difference. It becomes very easy, if stuff that looks just like you is the only stuff that comes into your sphere, to believe that everyone else is just like you. When we are not. Those experiences are not the default, they are one set of experiences among many many others.
And then there is the other half of it, which is: if you are a straight, white, middle class, male anglophone, it is very *easy* to find a whole lot of material that reflects back your experiences of and perspectives of the world. This stuff is frequently put in a position where it is just routinely considered first, and considered more.
If you are a person who is on the other side of one of those qualities (if you are not-male, not-straight, not-white, not-middle-class or some form of other-than-the-frequently-represented-image) it becomes much harder to find material which does accurately describe or reflect your experiences. Which makes it harder for you to accept and recognise yourself and your experiences as good or even normal. And when the things that *do* represent your experiences are routinely ignored (or even denigrated or put down as just not as worthy) that's even worse.
So, for one group of people, it's "here's a way to explore people that are not like you" and for other groups of people it's "here is the rare place where you *do* see people like you."
It's complicated. What it's *not* is about making people feel guilty. What it *is* about is saying "open yourself to the possibility of multiple viewpoints and experiences."
― Shepton Mullet (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Monday, 20 August 2012 09:46 (9 months ago) Permalink
And then there is the other half of it, which is: if you are a straight, white, middle class, male anglophone, it is very *easy* to find a whole lot of material that reflects back your experiences of and perspectives of the world.
haha yes the idea of only or even mostly listening to music that reflects who i am is completely bizarre to me even if you only take into account the surface things like ethnicity, sexuality and nationality
my entire history of loving music is finding stuff that i deeply identify with in the work of artists who are nothing "like me"
― lex pretend, Monday, 20 August 2012 09:59 (9 months ago) Permalink
Well, the thing is, that for many many people (including me) trying to find something to identify with in the work of artists that are not like them is the default mode.
While for this other group of people (people whose group has a disproportionate control over and representation of "what culture is") it's something weird or unusual that they have to be pushed or tempted into doing.
It's just lopsided.
― Shepton Mullet (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Monday, 20 August 2012 10:11 (9 months ago) Permalink
yeah - the idea that i might not find a piece of music resonant because it doesn't reflect myself accurately is just unfathomable to me. white str8 middle-class men really think like that, huh.
― lex pretend, Monday, 20 August 2012 10:20 (9 months ago) Permalink
See, I don't know if it's like that. I don't think it happens at the individual level. Or if it's more the case that what culture in general serves up to them is such a reflection of themselves again and again (in music, in movies, in books, whatever) that they've come to think it's just normal, that art should be a mirror for their own world, not a mirror into someone else's.
(Art should ideally do both. Like I said, it's the lopsidedness of it that bothers me.)
― Shepton Mullet (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Monday, 20 August 2012 10:24 (9 months ago) Permalink
that art should be a mirror for their own world, not a mirror WINDOW into someone else's.
I should really not go on ILX when I'm so sleep deprived.
― Shepton Mullet (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Monday, 20 August 2012 10:25 (9 months ago) Permalink
There's an implied assumption in this discussion: "you are what you like". Like, you're defined by your taste. I know it's a popular idea round here but it isn't necessarily true? Anyway @ Nick I wouldn't look at any list of records with a pile of white dudes innit and assume the listener was same.
― Diefendollar Bill, Yall$ (Ówen P.), Monday, 20 August 2012 10:36 (9 months ago) Permalink
Mad strawman building going on here. If I listen to a particularly whiny or entitled Terius or Kanye title I do find myself thinking "why should I give a shit?" but I doubt that's exactly a default mode for a lot of listeners.
If this were the main factor at play here then yr "white str8 middle-class men" wouldn't be able to identify or empathise with vast swathes of film or literature. It's inane.
― Matt DC, Monday, 20 August 2012 10:39 (9 months ago) Permalink
(I mean we are talking about a world where Jonathan Franzen is currently one of our most celebrated authors but still...)
― Matt DC, Monday, 20 August 2012 10:42 (9 months ago) Permalink
It's not that they're not *able* to, it's that 1) they rarely get fed anything but StraightWhiteMen, it's a very easy option to take and 2) they are routinely told, either implicitly or passively, that they shouldn't have to do anything else. (And indeed, there's a whole industry dedicated to telling them that listening to or rating the experiences/work of others will make them somehow less of a man.)
― Shepton Mullet (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Monday, 20 August 2012 10:44 (9 months ago) Permalink
Yah I don't think there's any strawmen here, Nick's being self-evaluative
Oh, I'm not saying "taste = identity" is false, either. But if you stop saying "I'm a guy who should like Clipse because" then you don't owe anybody an apology for not being into it except yourself (and maybe Clipse).
― Diefendollar Bill, Yall$ (Ówen P.), Monday, 20 August 2012 10:45 (9 months ago) Permalink
Oh, look. Here is the conversation I did not want to be having. That I was actively trying to resist having. And yet, lo and behold, I am unable to resist the little open circle, and here I am having it again.
I really need to do something else with my day than argue about piles of lists of straight white men, or my head will explode.
(x-post to myself, sorry Owen.)
― Shepton Mullet (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Monday, 20 August 2012 10:47 (9 months ago) Permalink
@ WCC there's no debate in my mind that the long tradition of str8 white men writing about music has (un)-coloured its development and what works have been canonized. But Nick's article isn't about "my responsibility as a music writer" but an invisible debt he feels he owes
― Diefendollar Bill, Yall$ (Ówen P.), Monday, 20 August 2012 10:49 (9 months ago) Permalink
In full disclosure, I did not read Nick's blog post. Mostly because of the way it was framed was so head-deskingly depressing to me. But also because I really don't need to read any more straight white man guilt in my life. I'm glad that he is having that conversation and I hope that he and others find it useful. I'm not saying that to be snarky, I'm saying it genuinely completely honestly and I generally rate Nick as an A+ human being.
I just really do need to go and think about something else for some time because this is reaching OCD levels for me.
― Shepton Mullet (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Monday, 20 August 2012 10:52 (9 months ago) Permalink
(Hah easily my favourite album of the past five years is Let England Shake ie a woman writing largely about StraightWhiteMen whose perspectives are infinitely harder to comprehend than the Pistol Annies/Dizzee Rascal/Kanye West).
― Matt DC, Monday, 20 August 2012 10:56 (9 months ago) Permalink
as far as the identification question goes, it's not at all hard to find pop music of almost every imagine sort made both by men and women. male artists obviously dominate in certain genres, and the critical discourse often seems to favor them, but those factors don't (or shouldn't) have much to do with our ability as individual listeners to find music to relate to and/or learn from. and obvious difference isn't the only sort that exists, after all. i often relate very easily to music made by people who aren't superficially "like me", and just as often find music made by straight white men completely alien to my values and sensibilities.
we might legitimately ask why female are so much less common and successful in certain genres, but there's no simple answer to that question, and it's difficult to meaningfully address in making an honest list of personal favorites.
― contenderizer, Monday, 20 August 2012 11:11 (9 months ago) Permalink
how do you define "successful"
― a regina spektor is haunting europe (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 20 August 2012 11:14 (9 months ago) Permalink
some intersection of popular appeal and critical respect
― contenderizer, Monday, 20 August 2012 11:16 (9 months ago) Permalink
in which genres have women been less successful?
― a regina spektor is haunting europe (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 20 August 2012 11:18 (9 months ago) Permalink
Err, rock music?
― Matt DC, Monday, 20 August 2012 11:19 (9 months ago) Permalink
yeah, technical death metal is a more specific example.
― contenderizer, Monday, 20 August 2012 11:20 (9 months ago) Permalink
You know where they're less successful too? The kitchen. Damn things can't even boil water.
― a regina spektor is haunting europe (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 20 August 2012 11:21 (9 months ago) Permalink
rap's another example. we can certainly find female rappers, but there do seem to be a hell of a lot more men actively pursing careers in the genre. this is less true now than it was, say, 20 years ago, but i think the imbalance still exists.
― contenderizer, Monday, 20 August 2012 11:24 (9 months ago) Permalink
I can only assume you guys are talking at cross purposes here.
― Matt DC, Monday, 20 August 2012 11:25 (9 months ago) Permalink
oh my god it's the exact same argument with the exact same people saying the exact same things all over again
totally feeling WCC's frustration
― lex pretend, Monday, 20 August 2012 11:28 (9 months ago) Permalink
White male guilt: don't wanna read about it (but you guys better feel it)
― Diefendollar Bill, Yall$ (Ówen P.), Monday, 20 August 2012 11:33 (9 months ago) Permalink
Owen, that was an uncharacteristically dickish thing for you to say, and out of line.
― Shepton Mullet (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Monday, 20 August 2012 11:36 (9 months ago) Permalink
<3 I was joking and I'll stfu if I offended
― Diefendollar Bill, Yall$ (Ówen P.), Monday, 20 August 2012 11:41 (9 months ago) Permalink
oh my god it's the exact same argument with the all over again
― lex pretend, Monday, August 20, 2012 4:28 AM (18 minutes ago)
you can hardly make this complaint when you're one of "the exact same people saying the exact same things"
― contenderizer, Monday, 20 August 2012 11:48 (9 months ago) Permalink
― some dude, Monday, 20 August 2012 11:49 (9 months ago) Permalink
erm, i haven't really been posting in this thread for that exact reason
― lex pretend, Monday, 20 August 2012 11:51 (9 months ago) Permalink
me neither! high five
― contenderizer, Monday, 20 August 2012 11:54 (9 months ago) Permalink
The idea of "identification" is an interesting one to me, whether it's about exploring the world view of someone "other" and finding common ground in some aspect of it (and expanding yourself), or whether it's about having yourself reflected back at you. Because I don't think I look for either in music particularly; I'm not really into lyrics and I don't think that much of the music I love describes world views or experiences all that much (although some of it clearly does), and even the stuff that does do that, it's generally not an important facet of it to me. I think I mainly get an aesthetic, sensual kick out of music, for the most part.
― Sick Mouthy (Scik Mouthy), Monday, 20 August 2012 11:56 (9 months ago) Permalink
I wanna make an "...on my yacht" joke but instead I'm just gonna
― Diefendollar Bill, Yall$ (Ówen P.), Monday, 20 August 2012 12:04 (9 months ago) Permalink
I find it very difficult to discuss topics like this, so forgive me if I appear gauche here.
But the discussion's set me thinking about the relevance of something like hiphop in a country like America, compared to say the UK. Say (like me) you're a white middle class male from the UK. And say the majority of acts you picked were white middle-class males. Now, a lot of critics may ask "Why such a lack of black artists on your list?" which is a fair enough question - hip hop and r'n'b being huge genres with a whole gamut of records to pick from. But surely (for someone from the UK) this is intrinsically asking "Why are you not listening to music of a very specific genre, from a location miles away across the Atlantic, often made by Black Americans?". It completely discounts the question of why as a UK resident you're not taking the time to listen to music of Indian or Arabic or Polish origin etc, seeing as you're just as likely (if not more likely) to come across people of these backgrounds in day-to-day life than you are a Black American. Yes, the UK has it's own plethora of black musical styles such as grime, but it's not really an 'albums' genre.
I absolutely agree with the idea of music as escapism, of being shown a window into another world. Coming from a pretty staid suburban town, not quite near enough to London to allow regular trips, literally all music that isn't the Bluetones provides that kind of escapism. Strictly speaking minimal house (being way more popular in urban settings) is almost as foreign to me as African kuduro. In order to branch into music that doesn't speak directly to white Britishers from commuter belt market towns, I have to mentally assume a role; pretend I'm someone or somewhere else for a bit. That's what music is in a lot of cases really - the soundtrack to an imaginary film. In some cases I want Spike Lee, in others I want Mike Leigh. It takes different levels of play acting to get into that mental role as a listener; to imagine the scene and therefore create a world around oneself that will suit whatever style of music one is listening to, be it death metal, experimental electronica, Britpop or Miami bass.
I think something like hip-hop can seem a lot more exotic, and therefore maybe more impenetrable to Britishers than to Americans. I do like a lot of hiphop, but if I find myself shying away from listening to it on a regular basis, it's not because of any reason other than I find it takes a fair amount of mental work to understand the lyrics and truly soak it up. I can't read and listen to hiphop for example, or concentrate on very much at all unless I'm doing nothing else but listen. I feel like it needs my full attention, like watching an episode of the Wire or something - it doesn't work for me as wallpaper music.
― Julian Asshole (dog latin), Monday, 20 August 2012 12:05 (9 months ago) Permalink
I think I just realized that at least part of the reason I listen to a larger percentage of music that doesn't fit my particular demographic is that (speaking as a straight, white male) I find most straight, white males to be completely baffling.
― Old Lunch, Monday, 20 August 2012 12:14 (9 months ago) Permalink
I thought I hated Ludacris for years and then I realized I only hated him because I ~am~ him
― Diefendollar Bill, Yall$ (Ówen P.), Monday, 20 August 2012 12:15 (9 months ago) Permalink
the "identification" thing is a pretty limited argument imo because so much music is either instrumental or doesn't have any particular cultural perspective in the lyrics that has anything to do with the race or nationality etc. of the artist.
i don't think it's remarkable is a "12 CDs a year" type listens to primarily people who look like them, but if you have thousands of albums and that's still the case, i dunno, i think it's worth looking at.
― some dude, Monday, 20 August 2012 12:16 (9 months ago) Permalink
Well to pick 2 artists that I came to love when I was a teenager, NWA and The Smiths, both of them seemed equally 'exotic' or 'alien' to me. I could no more imagine hanging out with 'Strawberry' than I could see myself spouting poetry in graveyards tbh.
― pandemic, Monday, 20 August 2012 12:17 (9 months ago) Permalink
spouting poetry at Strawberry in the graveyard = Salem
― nashwan, Monday, 20 August 2012 12:21 (9 months ago) Permalink
lol
― pandemic, Monday, 20 August 2012 12:22 (9 months ago) Permalink
Oh I definitely spouted poetry in graveyards.
― Sick Mouthy (Scik Mouthy), Monday, 20 August 2012 12:25 (9 months ago) Permalink
nice to meet you, Morrissey
― Lil Swayne of Pie (DJP), Monday, 20 August 2012 12:26 (9 months ago) Permalink
Mistake we all seem to make is to think that this is about the specific music we listen to and how we relate to it. I think it's much more (and/or much more often) about the musical conversations we have, who we're having them with, how we are lead to music and how much we resist (mostly passively) or propel the forces leading us. This is one reason why it's much easier to get a handle on how a person relates to music as a whole (or, perhaps more accurately, self-relates as a fan and consumer of music) by finding out who/what they read on music (assuming they read anyone) than what they listen to.
On an individual level there's nothing stopping people ending up being totally immersed - to the point of myopic obsession - with a type of music totally divorced from their background. This is true of all areas of life, and the many odd things that end up defining people's sense of the world world. But the world also tends to drive most of us some of the way, and some of us most of the way, down paths of less resistance.
― Tim F, Monday, 20 August 2012 12:26 (9 months ago) Permalink
How we are lead into music is quite a salient point i think Tim. For instance the main reason I bought 'It takes A Nation Of Millions' (which was the first rap album I owned) was because the NME described it as "the greatest rock n roll album of the year" or something like that. Which is reductive but worked on me.
― pandemic, Monday, 20 August 2012 12:31 (9 months ago) Permalink
That's exactly the kind of thing I mean, though obv (as your comment alludes) it's a more bald-faced example and usually these processes are much more insidious/subtle ("insidious" probably has unnecessarily negative implications but you get what I mean).
― Tim F, Monday, 20 August 2012 12:33 (9 months ago) Permalink
Great post Tim
― Diefendollar Bill, Yall$ (Ówen P.), Monday, 20 August 2012 12:35 (9 months ago) Permalink
tim otm. if there's a problem here, it's less what individuals do or don't like and more the way canon-building & conversation-driving entities emphasize certain voices over others. of course, that's a pretty big and complex subject too.
― contenderizer, Monday, 20 August 2012 12:39 (9 months ago) Permalink
Also - why we listen to music and what qualities we enjoy. There are people who genuinely prefer music that is raw, macho, visceral, antagonistic and so may be drawn to certain elements of heavy metal or hiphop, whereas others listen out for sounds that are mellow, groovy, chilled out, cool and therefore are more naturally inclined towards r'n'b or house. For a lot of people it's the reason they listen to music at all - not because they want a varied musical diet with a panoply of emotions. Some people go through life not giving a hoot about music until one day they come across, say, a Minor Threat track that hits them over the head and after that they're hooked on hardcore with little need to sway or diversify from that sound because it quells a certain appetite that they have a strong craving for - a craving that simply won't be satiated by, say, disco or whatever. That person might like to diversify a little. Maybe they hear the same kind of thrill in listening to hardcore as they do in metal, gabba, gangsta rap, but maybe it's specifically hardcore that works for them and the buck stops there. For someone like this, listening to any other music is either a waste of time or bordering on painful.
― Julian Asshole (dog latin), Monday, 20 August 2012 12:40 (9 months ago) Permalink
This is where comparisons between things like race and class (people who are othered because we are separated from them by culture) and things like gender and sexuality (people who are othered even though they inhabit the same culture) just completely break down.
This is what I just find so frustrating: when someone who can get obsessed with music made by a man completely outside of their experience from the other side of the world, musically will, at the same time, just not even consider the idea of listening to or, in this case "canonising" (listifying?) a woman on their musical block.
― Shepton Mullet (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Monday, 20 August 2012 12:48 (9 months ago) Permalink
again, though, i think that's incredibly reliant on how much of a given 'musical block' is even populated by women. in some cases you'd have to look really hard to find even one.
― some dude, Monday, 20 August 2012 12:50 (9 months ago) Permalink
xpost but who does this WCC? I don't believe anybody who's got an interest in a style of music from the other side of the world would prefer a male/female artists merely based on the grounds of basic sexism. If I were interested in, say Nyabinghi-style roots reggae, the experience of actively seeking out this kind of music (probably via a compilation most likely) would make "oh no i don't want to listen to that because it's sung by a woman" sound very strange indeed...
― Julian Asshole (dog latin), Monday, 20 August 2012 12:52 (9 months ago) Permalink
People having a problem with women's singing voices is a deep and storied history
― omg stop talking (Ówen P.), Monday, 20 August 2012 12:54 (9 months ago) Permalink
Why? That is a question that needs asking, too.
1) is this really an actual genre without any women at all, or have the women in that genre been routinely discounted or ignored?
2) there are some genres where it feels like (to me) the lack-of-women is a feature, not a bug. What does it say about someone if they are really drawn to that genre? Is it the music they like, or the girl-free lifestyle?
(And I say that as a woman who has many, many times, been attracted to and tried to participate in certain genres that code as male, and been told flat out "women don't like this" or harassed until I leave. Women-free spaces very rarely happen by accident these days.)
― Shepton Mullet (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Monday, 20 August 2012 12:56 (9 months ago) Permalink
And again - there is music out there that clicks certain buttons for people; music that would be considered macho, aggressive, visceral etc that is almost inarguably masculine, and therefore male-dominated by nature. There are some tremendous female death metal vocalists for example, but they tend to be the exception rather than the rule. It would take some extreme denial not to be stunned by the presence of someone like Angela Gossow (Arch Enemy), who can cookie-monster growl better than a lot of male metal singers.
But equally, there's plenty of music out there for people who prefer a more traditionally feminine touch. R'n'B is a genre where females appear to be canonised if not equally then more than their male counterparts. But R'n'B isn't really a very aggressive or hard-hitting genre. It's not going to click everyone's buttons, but it is one of the most popular styles of music in the Western world, so it's not as if it's being ignored.
― Julian Asshole (dog latin), Monday, 20 August 2012 13:00 (9 months ago) Permalink
yeah of course there aren't, but i think there are still plenty of situations where the participation level is like 95% or 99% male
― some dude, Monday, 20 August 2012 13:02 (9 months ago) Permalink
what genres are these? i guess metal is one, judging from what people say.
― lex pretend, Monday, 20 August 2012 13:04 (9 months ago) Permalink
lol no
― Fareed Zaireeka (Whiney G. Weingarten), Monday, 20 August 2012 13:08 (9 months ago) Permalink
chicks dig metal. plenty do. it's more about what one seeks out in music though, innit? the values you're drawn to. most people have categories of emotions/feelings/sounds that they enjoy hearing and others they don't. metal could be seen as having a particularly masculine sound, but then if you take a band like Cradle Of Filth, they have a huge huge female fanbase.
― Julian Asshole (dog latin), Monday, 20 August 2012 13:08 (9 months ago) Permalink
so way more than 1 in 20 metal musicians is female? i have no idea really but i wouldn't have guessed. (xpost)
― some dude, Monday, 20 August 2012 13:09 (9 months ago) Permalink
There's def more women in popular, working metal bands than ones with salable rap careers in 2012
― Fareed Zaireeka (Whiney G. Weingarten), Monday, 20 August 2012 13:09 (9 months ago) Permalink
I think if you were a Pitchfork reading indie fan taking the path of least resistance in 2012 you'd have been pointed in the direction of a lot of female voices from your "own block". Taking Pitchfork's Best New Music selections 2012 alone would give you Jessie Ware, Purity Ring, Dirty Projectors, Fiona Apple, Beach House, Chromatics, Julia Holter, Grimes and Frankie Rose, which isn't 50% but it's not far off especially when you remove the rappers and Frank Ocean.
I mean the Pitchfork universe has always struck me as pretty open to female voices within certain defined aesthetics. But when you go beyond that the selections are overwhelmingly male - a relatively unknown male R&B singer is likely to get more traction than a female one.
― Matt DC, Monday, 20 August 2012 13:09 (9 months ago) Permalink
I mean the Pitchfork universe has always struck me as pretty open to female voices within certain defined aesthetics.
I'd agree if you replaced "always" with "recently"
― omg stop talking (Ówen P.), Monday, 20 August 2012 13:12 (9 months ago) Permalink
I don't think that's true -- Frank Ocean's the big crossover figure this year but in another year it's equally as likely to be, say, Janelle Monae (xpost)
― some dude, Monday, 20 August 2012 13:12 (9 months ago) Permalink
I have typed about 3 or 4 detailed responses on this thread, then just given up and hit the back button. I'm tempted to just link to previous posts of mine, or blog entries or whatever. This feels so circular at this point.
― Shepton Mullet (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Monday, 20 August 2012 13:13 (9 months ago) Permalink
Did Pitchfork (I don't keep tabs on Pitchfork at all btw, so a lot of the backlash bemuses me somewhat) cover Solange Knowles? Do they cover Rihanna? Cassie? etc. Just curious here.
― Julian Asshole (dog latin), Monday, 20 August 2012 13:14 (9 months ago) Permalink
Yeah okay I'd go with that.
― Matt DC, Monday, 20 August 2012 13:15 (9 months ago) Permalink
This is one reason why it's much easier to get a handle on how a person relates to music as a whole (or, perhaps more accurately, self-relates as a fan and consumer of music) by finding out who/what they read on music (assuming they read anyone) than what they listen to.
― a regina spektor is haunting europe (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 20 August 2012 13:20 (9 months ago) Permalink
^^ otm
I have typed about 3 or 4 detailed responses on this thread, then just given up and hit the back button. I'm tempted to just link to previous posts of mine, or blog entries or whatever. This feels so circular at this point.― Shepton Mullet (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Monday, 20 August 2012 14:13 (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― Shepton Mullet (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Monday, 20 August 2012 14:13 (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
What is even more frustrating and circular is the presence of posts like this every page or two. Really - REALLY - I'm not trying to flame here, but please try and have patience. You've obviously thought about your position on this subject a lot, but sighing and rolling your eyes and moaning about certain turns of discussion is as tedious as you're making it out to be at best; and condescending to those you're speaking with at worst. Not everyone can be expected to intuit your specific thoughts and feelings on this (obviously fairly touchy/hot topic).
― Julian Asshole (dog latin), Monday, 20 August 2012 13:24 (9 months ago) Permalink
Dog Latin, you are aware that a few days, you were arguing that Metal was *not* defined by certain emotions (anger, aggression, etc.) And now today, you are arguing that the reason "women don't like metal" is because it is dominated by certain emotions (anger, aggression) which are so ~masculine~ that women don't ever, ever feel them?
1) Which is it? Metal is or is not dominated by anger and aggression? Make up your mind, please.
2) As to visceral anger and aggression being "masculine." You are aware that women can and *do* feel emotions of anger and aggression. In fact, given the levels of frustration inspired in me by this thread, I can assure you, as a woman, that rage and anger are a big, big part of females' experience.
― Shepton Mullet (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Monday, 20 August 2012 13:24 (9 months ago) Permalink
xp There was a moment about five years ago when I realized "holy crap I have no problem with Pitchfork vs. gays, Pitchfork vs. women" but I don't remember what brought it on.
Re: TimF's thing about "what they read", it's so true and it's changed my own thought process. In the early 00s I would've said "sounds like Kranky" and now it's "sounds like you read XXJFG"
― omg stop talking (Ówen P.), Monday, 20 August 2012 13:25 (9 months ago) Permalink
rip labels
― omg stop talking (Ówen P.), Monday, 20 August 2012 13:26 (9 months ago) Permalink
If you can't even remember your *own* arguments, Dog Latin, really, why should I spend my time and energy and emotional wherewithall making points over and again until they get through to you? Knowing full well that I'll be accused of clusterfucking and not being able to let go of an argument etc. if I do try to make those points yet again.
― Shepton Mullet (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Monday, 20 August 2012 13:28 (9 months ago) Permalink
WCC - I may be putting words in dog latins mouth here but it's totally reasonable to argue that a genre shouldn't be defined by certain criteria while accepting that it is perceived to be defined that way by the majority of people.
― Oblique Strategies, Monday, 20 August 2012 13:29 (9 months ago) Permalink
Don't think I said any of these things. Metal has its tropes. I would say it is a masculine sound. The latterday discussion was saying that boiling metal's emotional impact down to terms such as "anger" is simplistic, and not always true. Something like Napalm Death, yeah it's "angry" (among other things), whereas Rhapsody aren't angry at all. I also didn't say women don't like metal. There are bands like Cradle of Filth whose fanbase is largely female. But there's a reason you go to a CoF gig and see lots of women whereas if you were to go to a Napalm gig you might see fewer.
It's very simple really. Outside of maybe a few specialist establishments in Soho, you don't often get big tough beardy dudes getting down to Britney on the whole. That's not sexism, that's just how taste works.
― Julian Asshole (dog latin), Monday, 20 August 2012 13:31 (9 months ago) Permalink
music that would be considered macho, aggressive, visceral etc that is almost inarguably masculine, and therefore male-dominated by nature.
male dominated by nature.
Let's just look at that again.
Male-dominated by nature. Because that's nature. Men are angry, women are...
Let me tell you, reading this rubbish, right now, it makes me so angry I wish I could reach you through the monitor and punch you.
It's not simple. And it is complete fucking sexism.
― Shepton Mullet (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Monday, 20 August 2012 13:33 (9 months ago) Permalink
oh jesus. well, that's me out of here.
― Julian Asshole (dog latin), Monday, 20 August 2012 13:34 (9 months ago) Permalink
Tim and Owen are, respectfully, getting at some very interesting points.
And instead I'm letting myself get derailed by someone waving a red flag of "men are ~naturally~ like this, women are ~naturally~ like that" utter stupidity at me. I apologise to the thread and the board for letting myself get trolled by that. Please carry on, Tim and Owen.
― Shepton Mullet (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Monday, 20 August 2012 13:36 (9 months ago) Permalink
Don't really see how being big tough and beardy would mean not liking Britney. That's not how taste works I don't think.
― pandemic, Monday, 20 August 2012 13:36 (9 months ago) Permalink
I reviewed the second Solange album for pitchfork but was the wrong choice for a "pitchfork" review given I was a bit down on the swirly electronic portions of the album.
― Tim F, Monday, 20 August 2012 13:38 (9 months ago) Permalink
On a grander scale, If you wish to analyze gender / race / sexuality breakdown in listening habits then you need to look at the balance of participation in certain genres, the societal boundaries to that participation and from there whether ones habits enforce, uphold or seek to redress those imbalances.
― Oblique Strategies, Monday, 20 August 2012 13:39 (9 months ago) Permalink
Outside of maybe a few specialist establishments in Soho, you don't often get big tough beardy dudes getting down to Britney on the whole. That's not sexism, that's just how taste works.
ajkldkjdfkjdkjsdiodidknc,lxknl;;;ls;spsp---
― lex pretend, Monday, 20 August 2012 13:39 (9 months ago) Permalink
Tom Ewing has a massive beard, and he made Blackout his number one album on this thing. Huh.
― Shepton Mullet (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Monday, 20 August 2012 13:40 (9 months ago) Permalink
have seen plenty angry tough bearded metal dudes getting down to britney fwiw
― Crackle Box, Monday, 20 August 2012 13:43 (9 months ago) Permalink
The better "simple" answer to " why is genre X dominated by a single sex" is "because most of the people participating in that genre want it to be dominated by a single sex". It isn't until you start asking "why?" that interesting conversations start happening.
― Lil Swayne of Pie (DJP), Monday, 20 August 2012 13:43 (9 months ago) Permalink
i feel like generally speaking, lots of women make the music they want to make now, and lots of music fans of both genders listen to it. there's always going to be specific cases of marginalization or prejudice, among listeners and within music scenes, that are worth discussing and getting mad about, but i have no idea how we can even analyze this kind of thing on such a macro scale without uselessly second-guessing every fact and detail into total nonsense.
― some dude, Monday, 20 August 2012 13:47 (9 months ago) Permalink
playing referee between WCC and Dog Latin again, I think it's totally reasonable to assert that there is societal pressure on women to downplay their own aggression.I know plenty of aggressive & angry women, I don't think anyone here would argue against it being a natural state however it's not something that's accepted as a "natural" feminine trait within the gender binary so women are under immense pressure to identify more with Rihanna than Kathleen Hanna. Therefore it is "natural" within the society we live in that women are discouraged from taking part in aggressive genres of music far more than the pressure that already exists for them just to take part in musical creation at all.
― Oblique Strategies, Monday, 20 August 2012 13:48 (9 months ago) Permalink
I have detailed, many times before, my experiences, as a woman, of "trying to get into genre X" and being told flat out "but women aren't interested in genre X" and then being ignored (in best case scenario) or harassed, bullied and worse, until I get disgusted and leave. So that men can continue to justify their masculinity by saying "I'm a man, and I'm into genre X, which is a masculine genre, because no women like it, because it is so tough and manly" while totally discounting, that actually, several women have turned up, liked it, and they have chased them away.
But no matter how many times I say this, the Dog Latins of the world will keep insisting that it never happened and it can't possibly be true, because they haven't seen it.
― Shepton Mullet (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Monday, 20 August 2012 13:49 (9 months ago) Permalink
There's "being a woman, making music", and then there's "being a person, listening (or not listening) to music made by women" and there's "being a professional writer, paid to respond to music made by women" and I feel these three things are getting a tad conflated itt
― omg stop talking (Ówen P.), Monday, 20 August 2012 13:51 (9 months ago) Permalink
Not quite the same but somewhat on par with having to constantly correct people who think I'm gay (at least in part) because my musical tastes are occasionally flaming.
― Old Lunch, Monday, 20 August 2012 13:52 (9 months ago) Permalink
WCC, Just out of interest (and because I don't have time to search for old threads) what genres did you have this experience with?
― Oblique Strategies, Monday, 20 August 2012 13:52 (9 months ago) Permalink
Let's all take a break and listen to planningtorock now I hear she does a fine grotesque parody of masculinity
― omg stop talking (Ówen P.), Monday, 20 August 2012 13:53 (9 months ago) Permalink
if there's great records made by women that aren't getting a fair shake from critics and listeners, doesn't it kind of do a disservice to those records to simply frame an argument about that in terms of "hey you're not listening to enough women" instead of "hey these records are great and worthy of your attention"?
― some dude, Monday, 20 August 2012 13:55 (9 months ago) Permalink
#1 wish is that people stop worrying about getting into genres and just get into tracks
― nashwan, Monday, 20 August 2012 13:56 (9 months ago) Permalink
a Planningtorock/The Three O'Clock double bill would be fun
― Lil Swayne of Pie (DJP), Monday, 20 August 2012 13:56 (9 months ago) Permalink
xp I'd say the former to critics and the latter to listeners
― omg stop talking (Ówen P.), Monday, 20 August 2012 13:56 (9 months ago) Permalink
That's very true, some dude, but the argument is that great records by women get overshadowed by great records (or even only pretty good records) by men, because of all sorts of socio-cultural influences and subconscious biases.
Xposts
― Sick Mouthy (Scik Mouthy), Monday, 20 August 2012 13:57 (9 months ago) Permalink
djp otm
i feel like this doesn't need to be a redundant circular conversation b/c there's a lot of history to unpack w/r/t how certain areas are male-dominated etc, but it'd be better if it involved actual specifics - like genre x has this particular history of gender relations and roles etc, or, jumping off tim's post, this particular gateway to music had this particular gender bias etc. analysing on a macro scale would prob be too vague but it's composed of plenty of micro scales. but obviously that needs to be done without nonsense cod-psychology like "big beardy men don't like britney because they just don't" o_0
I know plenty of aggressive & angry women, I don't think anyone here would argue against it being a natural state however it's not something that's accepted as a "natural" feminine trait within the gender binary so women are under immense pressure to identify more with Rihanna than Kathleen Hanna
rihanna isn't angry?
"i lick the gun when i'm done cuz i know that revenge is sweet / this is a gang, ladies bang, baby bang tell me what you need"
^^how many mainstream pop stars you know who've made a video explicitly about gaining their revenge on a rapist?
― lex pretend, Monday, 20 August 2012 13:58 (9 months ago) Permalink
my "djp otm" was to this, many xps
― lex pretend, Monday, 20 August 2012 13:59 (9 months ago) Permalink
xxxxposts So many words have been shoved in my mouth I can barely speak.
I will just say that by "male-dominated by nature", I'm simply talking about the perceived imbalance of male/female metal artists - which I believe has been established quite clearly in this thread. I am not denying that women can and do experience the same emotions as men. Actually WTF, do you believe I'm stupid?
No of course big beardy dudes listen to Britney all the time, my apologies. I just looked at a few Britney concerts online and there they are - dozens and dozens of massive beardy dudes down the front singing every word. I had no idea her fanbase was so predominantly made up of big beardy dudes. I stand corrected.
Also, what's Tom Ewing got to do with all this? Not that his opinion isn't important, but when discussing music and attitudes I don't think it's right to use a professional music critic's favourite album because Ilxors and music critics generally listen to all kinds of stuff that spans a gigantic remit. They are the obvious exception, unlike a more casual or specialist listener who has more clearly defined preferences to what they hear.
― Julian Asshole (dog latin), Monday, 20 August 2012 14:00 (9 months ago) Permalink
It happened for the first time when I was about 15, and getting into hardcore punk.
It happened again when I was in my 20s and getting into pure drone (which, ironically, someone upthread was trying to say had no females.)
The worst and most vigorous and hateful (probably because it was mostly internet based, therefore hiding behind anonymity) was IDM.
Then, funnily enough, when I went through that phase of dipping a toe in and "trying to understand metal" in order to understand why so many of my friends were into it, wow, there were those attitudes creeping in again. And that time, I just said "you know what, metal, it's not me, it's you" and walked away.
And the irony, Oblique, though I do agree with what you say, is that you put the dichotomy between "Rihanna and Kathleen Hanna" - like, seriously, have you actually listened to Rated R? Rihanna is a pop artist who has made a point of exploring dark, violent, "dangerous" emotions from a female perspective, so that criticism seems a bit hollow.
A billion x-posts but I think it's rude not to answer direct questions when phrased nicely.
― Shepton Mullet (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Monday, 20 August 2012 14:00 (9 months ago) Permalink
You said large beardy dudes never listened to Britney. Tom Ewing is well known, in fact has a nickname due to, his large and luxuriant beard and is a big Britney fan. There's a thing called irony.
― Shepton Mullet (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Monday, 20 August 2012 14:04 (9 months ago) Permalink
tbf the odds of there being someone that has a beard and loves britney are higher on ilx than pretty much anywhere else in the world
― some dude, Monday, 20 August 2012 14:06 (9 months ago) Permalink
― some dude, Monday, August 20, 2012 1:12 PM (45 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
Yeah, IIRC it was only maybe 5 years ago that people were complaining that male R&B got ignored by crossover tastemaker types.
― Tim F, Monday, 20 August 2012 14:06 (9 months ago) Permalink
he said big tough beardy
― Algerian Goalkeeper, Monday, 20 August 2012 14:06 (9 months ago) Permalink
i also said "on the whole" - i never said "never".
― Julian Asshole (dog latin), Monday, 20 August 2012 14:07 (9 months ago) Permalink
Fair point Lex & WCC, Rihanna was just the first r&b/pop artist that came to mind. I shouldn't pretend to have a deep knowledge of her material. Please replace Rihanna w. the name of a fluffier pop singer. Let's say Taylor Swift.
― Oblique Strategies, Monday, 20 August 2012 14:07 (9 months ago) Permalink
haha what
― a regina spektor is haunting europe (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 20 August 2012 14:08 (9 months ago) Permalink
hoo boy
― Lil Swayne of Pie (DJP), Monday, 20 August 2012 14:08 (9 months ago) Permalink
Ah, so that's what "oblique strategies" means.
― Tim F, Monday, 20 August 2012 14:08 (9 months ago) Permalink
dude just stop
in fairness, angry Taylor Swift still comes across like kitten savaging a ball of yarn so I can see why it wouldn't be noticed
― Lil Swayne of Pie (DJP), Monday, 20 August 2012 14:11 (9 months ago) Permalink
― some dude, Monday, 20 August 2012 14:13 (9 months ago) Permalink
dan, my grandmother's kitten would turn your balls into yarn.
― a regina spektor is haunting europe (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 20 August 2012 14:14 (9 months ago) Permalink
RE Tim F's post (a million miles upthread): Just realised that I was led to listen to Robyn by Kieron Gillen, Dizzee Rascal by Simon Reynolds, and Pistol Annies by Alex Macpherson — all of whom provided an interesting frame thru which to approach the music they were writing about. They built up universes which I thought would be interesting to inhabit, and then I started listening and the music did its thing. I guess that's one way of summing up the way I "relate to music as a whole"...
― Mercer Finn, Monday, 20 August 2012 14:16 (9 months ago) Permalink
angry taylor swift <3
― lex pretend, Monday, 20 August 2012 14:16 (9 months ago) Permalink
This is like saying Beetlejuice three times in front of a mirror.
― Matt DC, Monday, 20 August 2012 14:19 (9 months ago) Permalink
xpost compare
― Julian Asshole (dog latin), Monday, 20 August 2012 14:19 (9 months ago) Permalink
xxxetcpost This is something I wonder at a lot - "what will make me tend to check X out sooner rather than later?"
In fact when we think about the old strawman of the "mindless sheep" of either the more basic 12 cds a year type or, the T-1000 model routinely downloading all P4K BNM selections, what the speaker is recoiling at isn't really the predictability of the music per se but the predictability of how the listener comes to it, what motivates them to check X out in the first place.
― Tim F, Monday, 20 August 2012 14:20 (9 months ago) Permalink
Oh, And WCC, I think it was me upthread who said "no women in drone" though technically I didn't say no women, Obviously there are women into outsider music (Marian Zazeela, Meredith Monk, on a more contemporary note Noveller or Grouper etc...). I think the point I was trying to make was that in my experience (which is: I work in music, my basic group of friends and acquantances are about 50/50 male / female, 80-90% of whom also work in music and all are smart, informed and have pretty left of centre tastes) I know only a handful of women who are in any way interested in drone.
xpost - Is this a good time to say: I don't listen to pop music? Ever. HA. I'll crawl back under my rock now shall I?
― Oblique Strategies, Monday, 20 August 2012 14:24 (9 months ago) Permalink
wtf @ "specialist establishments" too kmt
― lex pretend, Monday, 20 August 2012 14:32 (9 months ago) Permalink
I know only a handful of women who are in any way interested in drone
tell that to pauline oliveros, eliane radiguet, maryanne amacher, marcia bassett etc fucking etc
― Ward Fowler, Monday, 20 August 2012 14:33 (9 months ago) Permalink
They built up universes which I thought would be interesting to inhabit, and then I started listening and the music did its thing.
Something else I've been thinking: often the point where you might go from liking a particular genre/style/approach in a casual, individual instances way, to being really immersed, coincides with properly getting a feel for how the full-blown fan who structures their taste around that music conceives of it, understanding how they extract all the necessary nutrients from that source. I'm not sure whether one of those things is always the cause and one is always the effect, I suspect it's more circular than that. But I think it's true that even when we're relating directly to a piece of music we're also relating to an idea of that music and what it means to be a fan of it.
― Tim F, Monday, 20 August 2012 14:34 (9 months ago) Permalink
BTW at this point I'm basically judging anyone who is persisting with the "do certain genres have female participants or fans yes/no" conversation.
― Tim F, Monday, 20 August 2012 14:35 (9 months ago) Permalink
"trying to get into genre X" and being told flat out "but women aren't interested in genre X" and then being ignored (in best case scenario) or harassed, bullied and worse, until I get disgusted and leave"
proper fucked up and so far removed my irl experiences i can't imagine it ever happening (not that i'm doubting it did) without someone being totally shot down and esp in the drone / metal scenes where, in my irl experiences people are lovely, who are these assholes wcc? i bet they're radiohead fans!
― Crackle Box, Monday, 20 August 2012 14:38 (9 months ago) Permalink
i dunno whats going on here but this thread got me to finally listen to orchestra of bubbles, and...wow
― ciderpress, Monday, 20 August 2012 14:41 (9 months ago) Permalink
90% of the Radiohead fans I know are women or gay dudes. (Or "gay for Jonny Greenwood" dudes, same thing.)
Orchestra of Bubbles is great, but Thrills is even better.
I think this is really important:
But I think it's true that even when we're relating directly to a piece of music we're also relating to an idea of that music and what it means to be a fan of it.
In some cases, it means identifying with "being a fan of X" and in some cases it means moving away from a warped or self-incompatible notion of "what it means to be a fan of X."
― Shepton Mullet (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Monday, 20 August 2012 14:47 (9 months ago) Permalink
And the thing is, it's unhelpful to cast the difference between "assholes"/"lovely people" (except for the dudes who detail rape fantasies on watmm, they're assholes, definitely) - like, many of the people who will be totally lovely to you as a dude, or even be OK to me as an individual will still say and express these really hateful attitudes towards femininity itself (often with a caveat of "oh, but of course I don't mean you, I mean, those other, annoying girly-women.") To the point where the cognitive dissonance starts to kill me. Like, I have to let go of the idea of myself as a woman, as feminine or even girly to participate in the fandom - in these people's eyes. And that's really not fair to me, my gender or the fandom.
I do sometimes wonder if that same cognitive dissonance is what stops men from being able to become-fans-of female artists. Like, they have such an oppositional approach to gender, they cannot hold the idea of "being a fan of x means being a girl or being gay" and "actually I really enjoy this music, what does that say about me?" If a man thinks of "being like a woman or gay man" as ~the worst thing ever~ how can they embrace fandom of an artist that they think of as coded as girly?
Unless - and it's interesting that all the critics who were mentioned as opening the world to other artists through their writing were male - someone is shown an example of a man who is able to participate in the fandom.
― Shepton Mullet (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Monday, 20 August 2012 14:56 (9 months ago) Permalink
I wonder how much "being involved" in scenes / genres / movements / cultures on a physical level is also an influencer; I almost literally never go to local gigs, have pretty much no connection with any local scene, talk with people about music almost entirely online (apart from with Emma and the DRC people), so I've almost literally no experience of who or what makes up the people who go to gigs or club nights or noise events or whatever. My listening is incredibly solipsistic.
― Sick Mouthy (Scik Mouthy), Monday, 20 August 2012 15:07 (9 months ago) Permalink
It's an uphill battle, too, for men who choose to work within the genre of female singer-songwriter
― omg stop talking (Ówen P.), Monday, 20 August 2012 15:11 (9 months ago) Permalink
This is, I'm sad to say, probably a big factor for a lot of people. But then, y'know I've seen sitcoms where the dialogue'll go something like:
"I think Alan might be a bit, y'know...""Really? What makes you think that?""I heard him singing the whole of 'Send In The Clowns' in the shower"
Cue lots of canned laughter and further bad jokes...
And I dunno, it is sad and wrong that someone might be forced to feel shame or denial because of the music they enjoy - either to the point they feel they can only listen to it in secret or not listen to it at all. Or that they feel they might be judged by the music they listen to. I hope this is not the case for too many people. But then music is a statement. Like the clothes you wear or the way you speak, it does project a certain something about you to others. I wouldn't turn the speakers up if I were listening to offensive hiphop or harsh grinding noise music if I knew my housemates were within earshot. It's not just about bothering them with sound, but the type of sound. I mean, if I came home every day and cranked up the Cannibal Corpse to 11 every day, I think that would project something about myself to the people around me. They'd probably think I was a highly rantipole antisocial individual and treat me accordingly. Maybe not. Who knows?
― Julian Asshole (dog latin), Monday, 20 August 2012 15:16 (9 months ago) Permalink
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truthiness
― coal, Monday, 20 August 2012 15:52 (9 months ago) Permalink
i used to skew heavily towards male artists but now the only bands i listen to are the raincoats and kleenex/lilliput
― flopson, Monday, 20 August 2012 15:55 (9 months ago) Permalink
― omg stop talking (Ówen P.),
Wait what
― Turangalila, Monday, 20 August 2012 16:05 (9 months ago) Permalink
Also, why frame this in the context of "straight male listens to x music" when it could be applied to pretty much anyone at this juncture? Just as an example, is there a difference between asking your stereotypical hetero white British male why he does not listen to NY vogue-house; and asking a gay black man from New York why he doesn't listen to the Charlatans. It's probable that both may well do, but is it very likely?
― Julian Asshole (dog latin), Monday, 20 August 2012 16:08 (9 months ago) Permalink
I know you guys are into a pretty involved looking convo but I spent some time on this handmade list since I felt a bit like I missed out. Putting this out there- carry on otherwise, but I'd appreciate feedback!
1. Tobin Sprout – Carnival Boy2. Swirlies – They Spent Their Wild Youthful Day In The Glittering World Of The Salons3. Real Estate – Days4. She, Sir – Who Can’t Say Yes5. Guided By Voices – Under The Bushes Under The Stars6. Calexico – Hot Rail7. The Clientele – God Save The Clientele8. Cass McCombs – Dropping The Writ9. Sun Kil Moon – Ghosts Of The Great Highway10. Wrens – Meadowlands11. …And You Will Know Us By The Trail Of Dead – Source Tags & Codes12. The Tallest Man On Earth – Shallow Grave13. Wilderness – Wilderness14. 12 Rods – Split Personalities15. Exploding Hearts – Guitar Romantic16. Duster – Stratosphere17. Polvo – Exploded Drawing18. The Appleseed Cast – Low Level Owl Vol. 1 & 219. The Olivia Tremor Control - Black Foliage Vol. 120. Air France – No Way Down21. Calexico – Feast Of Wire22. Guided By Voices - Sunfish Holy Breakfast23. Bottomless Pit – Hammer Of The Gods24. Tobin Sprout - Moonflower Plastic25. Polvo – In Prism26. Isolee – We Are Monster27. Lilys – Better Can’t Make Your Life Better28. The Notwist – Neon Golden29. Guided By Voices - Mag Earwhig!30. …And You Will Know Us By The Trail Of Dead - …And You Will Know Us By The Trail Of Dead31. Lullaby For The Working Class - I Never Even Asked For Light32. The Clientele – Strange Geometry33. Cass McCombs – Catacombs34. Chavez – Ride The Fader35. The Olivia Tremor Control – Music From The Unrealized Film Script Dusk At Cubist Castle36. Versus – Two Cents Plus Tax37. Swell – Too Many Days Without Thinking38. Radiohead – In Rainbows39. Clearlake - Cedars40. Lilys – The Lilys41. Plants And Animals – Parc Avenue42. Radiohead – OK Computer43. Peter And The Wolf – Lightness44. Tim Hecker – Harmony in Ultraviolet45. Japandroids – Post-Nothing46. Sunny Day Real Estate – How It Feels To Be Something On47. Bedhead – Transaction De Novo48. Airport 5 – Tower In The Fountain Of Sparks49. Animals That Swim – Workshy50. Microphones – The Glow Pt. 251. EMA – Past Life Martyred Saints52. Yo La Tengo – I Can Hear The Heart Beating As One53. The Dismemberment Plan – Emergency & I54. Destroyer – Destroyer’s Rubies55. Herbert – Scale56. Califone – Roots & Crowns57. Pinback – Summer In Abaddon58. Rocketship – A Certain Smile, A Certain Sadness59. Sleater-Kinney – The Woods60. Pavement – Terror Twilight61. Goldenboy – Blue Swan Orchestra62. Super Furry Animals – Guerilla63. The Spinanes – Arches And Aisles64. Hot Chip – The Warning65. Lenola – My Invisible Name66. Unwound – Leaves Turn Inside You67. Dungen – Ta De Lungt68. Red House Painters – Songs For A Blue Guitar69. Deerhunter - Weird Era Cont.70. Hum – Downward Is Heavenward71. The Thermals – The Body, The Blood, The Machine72. Mark Hollis – Mark Hollis73. Teenage Fanclub – Songs From Northern Britain74. Spiritualized – Ladies And Gentlemen We Are Floating In Space75. Giant Sand – Chore Of Enchantment76. Les Savy Fav – Inches77. The Deadly Snakes – Ode To Joy78. Life Without Buildings – Any Other City79. Broken Social Scene – You Forgot It In People80. The National – Boxer81. The Vivian Girls – The Vivian Girls82. Four Tet – Rounds83. Bonnie Prince Billy – Lie Down In The Light84. Shocking Pinks – Shocking Pinks85. Spoon – A Series Of Sneaks86. The Pains Of Being Pure At Heart – The Pains Of Being Pure At Heart87. The Knife – Silent Shout88. Mirah – C’mon Miracle89. Menomena – I Am The Fun Blame Monster90. Wilco - Yankee Hotel Foxtrot91. Cut Copy – In Ghost Colors92. Tough Alliance – A New Chance93. Menomena – I Am The Fun Blame Monster94. Nick Cave & The Bad Seeds – Dig, Lazarus, Dig!!!95. The Clientele – The Violet Hour 96. Bibio – Ambivalence Avenue97. Blur – 1398. Wilderness – Vessel States99. King Khan & The Shrines – What Is?!100. Pavement – Brighten The Corners
― Evan, Monday, 20 August 2012 16:08 (9 months ago) Permalink
brave man
― Algerian Goalkeeper, Monday, 20 August 2012 16:10 (9 months ago) Permalink
That looks like a pretty racist list tbf
― Julian Asshole (dog latin), Monday, 20 August 2012 16:14 (9 months ago) Permalink
Jokes Bruv, jokes
Hahaha
― Evan, Monday, 20 August 2012 16:15 (9 months ago) Permalink
You might need this, Dog Latin
Keep digging.
― Shepton Mullet (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Monday, 20 August 2012 16:15 (9 months ago) Permalink
iirc he hasn't actually offended anyone here except you, which y'know big accomplishment
― some dude, Monday, 20 August 2012 16:17 (9 months ago) Permalink
No it's true my list is offensively white.
― Evan, Monday, 20 August 2012 16:18 (9 months ago) Permalink
Oh! Isn't King Khan indian? Yeah, that's what I'm talking about!
― Evan, Monday, 20 August 2012 16:20 (9 months ago) Permalink
Anyway
― Evan, Monday, 20 August 2012 16:44 (9 months ago) Permalink
because, just by virtue of being a gay man from New York, there is about a 60% chance your hypothetical gay black man from New York also listens to the Charlatans; the boxes you're constructing are overlapping rather than distinct, and they always seem to overlap in directions that make the straight white male the default by which everything else is othered
― Lil Swayne of Pie (DJP), Monday, 20 August 2012 17:05 (9 months ago) Permalink
Pitchfork sucks dunnit?
― Julian Asshole (dog latin), Monday, 20 August 2012 17:05 (9 months ago) Permalink
you're trying to take a series of concentric spheres and turn them into a line
― Lil Swayne of Pie (DJP), Monday, 20 August 2012 17:06 (9 months ago) Permalink
DJP - sorry I don't follow your post.
― Julian Asshole (dog latin), Monday, 20 August 2012 17:07 (9 months ago) Permalink
you're creating a scenario with two hypothetical people and painting stereotypical tastes upon them without allowing for the fact/idea that one set of those tastes is far more likely to be spread far and beyond the person to whom you're assigning them by virtue of the culture we exist in; the mental image of a gay black man from New York listening to The Charlatans is only unlikely because it's 2012, not 1991
― Lil Swayne of Pie (DJP), Monday, 20 August 2012 17:10 (9 months ago) Permalink
so, you're basically taking overlapping spheres of influence and trying to treat them as if they're wholly distinct and equivalent in their pervasiveness in our culture, when they aren't and never have been
― Lil Swayne of Pie (DJP), Monday, 20 August 2012 17:11 (9 months ago) Permalink
it's a grain of "truth" inside a horribly formed "joke"
― nedless summer (Ówen P.), Monday, 20 August 2012 17:17 (9 months ago) Permalink
lol they're called "The Charlatans UK"
― Legendary General Cypher Raige (Gukbe), Monday, 20 August 2012 17:24 (9 months ago) Permalink
Xposts djp. I'm still not sure I follow what you're saying, sorry if I'm just being very thick here. Of course there's going to be a measure of overlap involved, but by and large NY vogue house was developed, and by and large defined, by the black/Latino gay scene in new York. The Charlatans might be a bad example, replace them with any old quintessentially British guitar band if you must. Of course one demographic is more likely to listen to one than the other - there'll be overlaps, but few surprises if you were to poll fans of such acts/styles. I have, I admit, managed to lose my train of thought on this as I'm on the hoof now and in danger of not being clear on what I meant so I'll leave it for now. I'm not trying to make out that white straight males ought to be considered some sort of norm though, quite the opposite.
― Julian Asshole (dog latin), Monday, 20 August 2012 17:31 (9 months ago) Permalink
it's just really loaded to pick one group that's developed its own musical subculture almost as a direct result of being marginalized by mainstream straight white culture and then contrast it with the British guitar bands that have been a cornerstone of popular music for 50 years
― some dude, Monday, 20 August 2012 17:35 (9 months ago) Permalink
That is true.
― Julian Asshole (dog latin), Monday, 20 August 2012 17:37 (9 months ago) Permalink
my response to your arguments is that none of them make sense because you are not taking into consideration the pervasiveness in US/UK musical culture of the straight white male as the default against which everything else is measured, and as a result your arguments are hollow/naive
I mean, even in your hypothetical you are comparing an entire genre to any one example of a quintessentially British guitar band, because QBGBs are so pervasive you can build entire subgenres off of one band name; you're presenting this as an example of equivalence but it's fundamentally flawed from the ground up
I should delete this because some dude basically said the same thing from a different angle but maybe the angles are different enough to make this worth posting
― Lil Swayne of Pie (DJP), Monday, 20 August 2012 17:39 (9 months ago) Permalink
I guess I was assuming the UK Charlatans didn't exactly leave an enormous dent on general US culture, but I could be wrong - i have no idea whether they became popular over there or not. But yeah I see how it's loaded.
― Julian Asshole (dog latin), Monday, 20 August 2012 17:39 (9 months ago) Permalink
they had 3 top ten modern rock hits between 1990 and 1992, including a #1 with "Weirdo", and were semi-inescapable during that time period
― Lil Swayne of Pie (DJP), Monday, 20 August 2012 17:42 (9 months ago) Permalink
― omg stop talking (Ówen P.)
This is definitely an under-appreciated point: that sometimes men face some sort of speed bump (humps, UK) in an otherwise uninterrupted run of thousands of years of being on top.
― BMICHAEL, Monday, 20 August 2012 17:44 (9 months ago) Permalink
Xpost Haha, okay that's actually kind of wow to me. It's like telling me Shed Seven outsold Destiny's Child in the US chart or something, so consider me boggled. I had no idea how popular they were, but then I was only about 9 when charlatans released Some Friendly.
― Julian Asshole (dog latin), Monday, 20 August 2012 17:45 (9 months ago) Permalink
99. King Khan & The Shrines – What Is?!
― Evan, Monday, August 20, 2012 9:08 AM (1 hour ago)
why o why did i not vote for this?
― contenderizer, Monday, 20 August 2012 17:45 (9 months ago) Permalink
speed bump (humps, UK)
they're called "sleeping policemen" iirc
― Legendary General Cypher Raige (Gukbe), Monday, 20 August 2012 17:47 (9 months ago) Permalink
Sleeping Policemen UK
― Julian Asshole (dog latin), Monday, 20 August 2012 17:49 (9 months ago) Permalink
contenderizer- I never bothered to check out other King Khan projects beyond that album, which I love. Have you? How do they stack up?
― Evan, Monday, 20 August 2012 17:49 (9 months ago) Permalink
Scoring 'hits' on the modern rock charts between 1990 and 1992 was not always a sign of general pervasiveness in the culture.
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Monday, 20 August 2012 17:51 (9 months ago) Permalink
they are a sign of pervasiveness within a particular scene, and a good number of the gay black men I know from New York are all old enough to know exactly who Charlatans UK were and to be able to name at least one out of "Weirdo", "Then" and "The Only One I Know"
my point being that putting all gay black men in New York into the box that says "you only listen to vogue house" is stupid
― Lil Swayne of Pie (DJP), Monday, 20 August 2012 17:54 (9 months ago) Permalink
Semi-inescapable, I suppose, for a certain kind of listener. Only their first two albums cracked the Billboard 200, peaking at #73 and #173. And the number of radio stations that fed the modern-rock chart in 1990-92 would've been fairly limited. They certainly weren't being played in supermarkets.
― squicky chutzpah in the drug biz (jaymc), Monday, 20 August 2012 17:56 (9 months ago) Permalink
(What Sund4r said.)
to extend something dog latin suggested a billion posts up, the essential character of certain subgenres of "extreme" music is defined not just by anger, violence and transgression, but by the macho, almost cartoonishly masculine aspects of the anger, violence and transgression on display. in suggesting this, i'm not denying that women can feel or express such things or that anyone is "naturally" this way or that. i am, however, suggesting that there are culturally-defined "masculine modes" that prevail in certain sorts of extreme music, and that, perhaps as a consequence, these musics do seem to attract a lot of men both as fans and as artists. the cultures that develop around such subgenres may at times be hostile to female fandom and/or participation, but that seems more an unfortunate consequence of unthinking tribalism (a human problem) than a black mark against the music and anyone who likes it.
― contenderizer, Monday, 20 August 2012 17:57 (9 months ago) Permalink
― Evan, Monday, August 20, 2012 10:49 AM (7 minutes ago)
that's the best KK & the shrines release, afaic, though three hairs and you're mine is nearly as good. beyond the shrines, the KK & BBQ album what's for dinner is pretty damn great. obviously much more stripped down than the the shrines, but w lots of great songs, rocks like nobody's business. the debut king khan & BBQ show album is good, but if you're starting from what is, i'd hold off on that until after what's for dinner, as it's not terribly well-recorded.
― contenderizer, Monday, 20 August 2012 18:03 (9 months ago) Permalink
Djp - wait up I'm not saying that at all. I'm not categorising gay black men or straight white men in the way you say. I'm saying that if you were to poll all the fans of one style of music over another, you're going to get different results - there's no surprise in that. If you were to poll all the charlatans fans in the world, would you be surprised that there would be a spike where straight white males from the north of England are concerned, while significantly fewer will be gay black men from new York. And there are obvious reasons for that - ones that go beyond the usual accusations of prejudice.
― Julian Asshole (dog latin), Monday, 20 August 2012 18:05 (9 months ago) Permalink
Same as I wouldn't necessarily expect to get into a taxi driven by an ageing Sikh man who was playing his beloved copy of 'Heaven or Las Vegas'. (cue someone popping up and telling me about how Cocteau Twins' early EPs were distributed by South Asian taxi companies or something)
― Julian Asshole (dog latin), Monday, 20 August 2012 18:11 (9 months ago) Permalink
Contenderizer managed to express a lot of what I couldn't upthread. The irony is that metal is actually a hugely popular genre for females as well as males although this tends, speaking in very broad terms, to apply to fans of the genre rather than those who make it. I also think that depending on which band and style of metal is playing, you'll find different proportions of male/female ratios. It's not about 'you're a gurl, you don't get it', at least I really hope not and if anyone's ever said this to anyone, they deserve to have their eardrums removed.
― Julian Asshole (dog latin), Monday, 20 August 2012 18:16 (9 months ago) Permalink
i prefer the kk&bbq debut but both are essential & full of smash hits
― flopson, Monday, 20 August 2012 18:18 (9 months ago) Permalink
It's just fun looking at all the album covers!
― nicky lo-fi, Monday, 20 August 2012 18:21 (9 months ago) Permalink
your larger point, DL, seems to be that music and culture are closely tied together. i have no argument there, but you have to know that speaking broadly about the presumable tastes of gay black men and aging sikh cabdrivers is going to irritate a lot of people...
― contenderizer, Monday, 20 August 2012 18:22 (9 months ago) Permalink
hey btw what sparked this debate? i had figured they released the people's list & that it was exclusively male or sth but can't find it anywhere on the site
― flopson, Monday, 20 August 2012 18:23 (9 months ago) Permalink
I think it started when looking at the male-centric lists were putting up. Crucially there were no judgments from anyone, just suggestions that there's a subconscious bias at work.
― Legendary General Cypher Raige (Gukbe), Monday, 20 August 2012 18:24 (9 months ago) Permalink
ah ok thx
― flopson, Monday, 20 August 2012 18:26 (9 months ago) Permalink
Xpost. Contenderizer Yes I am saying that music and culture are interlinked, but what I am also saying is that people's musical preferences go far beyond this monochrome argument of male/female, black/white and it's unfair to make judgement based on whether someone listens to exclusively one or the other.
― Julian Asshole (dog latin), Monday, 20 August 2012 18:26 (9 months ago) Permalink
Thanks for the suggestions!
On another note I was going to mention how much of a wrench 1995 would have thrown into this mix in my case.
― Evan, Monday, 20 August 2012 18:28 (9 months ago) Permalink
Xpost Don't forget I'm also speaking broadly about the presumed tastes of white northern englishers of a particular age. And of course they don't all listen to the Charlatans. Please understand, I'm talking about the demographic of a particular scene or band - not the music tastes of a particular culture. There is a difference.
― Julian Asshole (dog latin), Monday, 20 August 2012 18:30 (9 months ago) Permalink
I would have liked to have done one of these but I guess it's closed now. It probably would have been pretty white-male centric, which might be indicative of something, but these days I think it's just the vagaries.
― Legendary General Cypher Raige (Gukbe), Monday, 20 August 2012 18:31 (9 months ago) Permalink
What's kind of funny to me is that my list happens to be male dominated but that Sleater-Kinney record probably has more muscle than any of the others.
― Evan, Monday, 20 August 2012 18:33 (9 months ago) Permalink
Gukbe I had the same issue, just write one out as well.
― Evan, Monday, 20 August 2012 18:34 (9 months ago) Permalink
Not posting my list as i had browswer issues and couldn't sort my list into any kind of order.
― Regional Tug (irrational), Monday, 20 August 2012 18:35 (9 months ago) Permalink
Just type it out here.
― Evan, Monday, 20 August 2012 18:37 (9 months ago) Permalink
yeah I sort of thought about doing one of these lists but looking up release dates to figure out what was or wasn't before 1996 was too annoying and pointless.
― dmr, Monday, 20 August 2012 18:49 (9 months ago) Permalink
I am saying that music and culture are interlinked, but what I am also saying is that people's musical preferences go far beyond this monochrome argument of male/female, black/white and it's unfair to make judgement based on whether someone listens to exclusively one or the other.
― Julian Asshole (dog latin), Monday, August 20, 2012 11:26 AM (1 minute ago)
yeah, i agree.
that said, to the extent that there's a pronounced critical/cultural bias in favor of music made by members of certain groups over others, there's a real problem. if we think that a problem of this sort exists and have any stake in pop criticism, we have to ask ourselves how we might best address it. one obvious step that anyone can take on a day-to-day basis is to make a conscious point of engaging with and perhaps even publicly "preferring" the products of marginalized groups. taking this step at least causes whatever cultural capital one expends in publicly expressing taste to achieve some potential good. i don't know that anyone on ILM is explicitly advocating for this approach, but it does seem to be implied in the arguments that some have made.
another possible solution is to pin the blame not on individual voices expressing individual taste, but on the tastemaking entities that attach special importance to certain voices (for instance, to demand more equity and inclusion from influential magazines and websites). i'm not sure a clear line can be drawn between the two though, between the opinions of individuals and those of larger aggregate entities, especially not in the voice-enabling digital age. and no matter what, the change pressure probably has to come from individual critics.
― contenderizer, Monday, 20 August 2012 18:55 (9 months ago) Permalink
I think there's probably an important difference between having no women on a list and having only a few, but I don't know what it is. Most of the music I listen to has male vocals but I do listen to music with female vocals so I must not have any categorical aversion to women singing. But I don't know why I don't listen to more. Then again, 20% of the artists on my list feature women singing so maybe that's ok? 30% including non-singing women in the band.
― wk, Monday, 20 August 2012 18:56 (9 months ago) Permalink
― dmr, Monday, August 20, 2012 2:49 PM (6 minutes ago)
You know this wasn't as much as an issue as just not leaving anything out in general. To speed things up I just put itunes in the jukebox display mode and scrolled through.
― Evan, Monday, 20 August 2012 19:02 (9 months ago) Permalink
if you were to reach parity that probably means you skew female, since the majority of recording artists are male or male-fronted in genres like rock n' roll or hip hop (fwict the 2 most represented in these lists)
― flopson, Monday, 20 August 2012 19:03 (9 months ago) Permalink
^^ what i'm saying
― some dude, Monday, 20 August 2012 19:06 (9 months ago) Permalink
What if you get a lot of experience of other cultures through other cultural platforms? Cinema, or film, or literature, for instance? For instance I go out of my way to cook and eat a lot of Caribbean, north African, Spanish, and middle eastern food, but I listen to almost zero music from any of those cultures. This is an offshoot of a line of though I've been vaguely interested in for ages, which is the idea of people being culturally sophisticated and broad in one direction, but conservative (for want of a better word) in others, and how that dichotomy works.
― Sick Mouthy (Scik Mouthy), Monday, 20 August 2012 19:17 (9 months ago) Permalink
Cinema and film are obviously the dame fucking thing. I meant cinema and food. Idiot.
― Sick Mouthy (Scik Mouthy), Monday, 20 August 2012 19:18 (9 months ago) Permalink
Same not fame.
dame fucking, eh?
― wk, Monday, 20 August 2012 19:21 (9 months ago) Permalink
that was a series of delightful typos
― Lil Swayne of Pie (DJP), Monday, 20 August 2012 19:22 (9 months ago) Permalink
Contenderizer, i agree as ilxors, critics, music nerds we should challenge as many preconceptions and prejudices as possible.
Pitchfork is a different beast to what it was ten years ago, and should be lauded for branching out into territories other than indie rock, which is how it started out. It would have been easy for them to retain the bias all this time, but while it's got a way to go in covering all branches of music, it's been an important factor in opening up indie kids to other styles away from this genre. So in a way when people complain about a bias towards indie rock, or to put it in other terms 'white boys with guitars', I kind of find myself thinking 'yes, but what do you expect from a site that started out reviewing indie rock almost exclusively?'. Although here perhaps I'm making a big assumption that indie rock is predominantly a white male genre - an accusation which, true or false, often gets levelled at the indie scene and pitchfork by their detractors day in, day out. Are we complaining that the choices here are biased towards white male voices, or that there isn't enough diversity within the groups of people who make the kind of music covered by Pitchfork? And is it fair to use that as a signifier of prejudice/hostility/exclusivity within the indie rock scene, or is it something to do with fewer non-white non-male people being interested in that genre of music?
― Julian Asshole (dog latin), Monday, 20 August 2012 19:23 (9 months ago) Permalink
Many xposts
Fucking fame dame same shame.
― Sick Mouthy (Scik Mouthy), Monday, 20 August 2012 19:25 (9 months ago) Permalink
Can I talk about an album on my list for a second:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000QQTLYY/ref=dm_sp_alb
This is my brother's group and this album is fucking great, a mix of backpackerish hip-hop and spoken word poetry; check specifically "Glasses", "Keloid Suite", "Jay", "Cheatin'", "Fat White Men In Suits", "Blah Blah"
― Lil Swayne of Pie (DJP), Monday, 20 August 2012 19:32 (9 months ago) Permalink
Will check
― Julian Asshole (dog latin), Monday, 20 August 2012 19:35 (9 months ago) Permalink
I don't know. I think there are a lot of strains of thought here, and it's really sort of difficult to gather them all up. But it seems like you could form a sort of argument by saying,
1. There are a lot of commonsense-type assumptions that seem baked into our everyday experience in the world.2. Our everyday experience in the world is practically all contingent, historically accidental, and mostly just arbitrary.3. So the cultural choices we make stamp an order onto our everyday experiences.4. Obviously, there are political ramifications that tend (for me) to background almost every discussion like this one; eg, giving anger to women as a point of course (rather than masculinizing it), since doing otherwise makes being a woman politician almost impossible. Since men are able to express themselves with anger and it's seen as normal, whereas when women do so they're seen as bitches.
And so on. So there seems to be a conclusion you could draw where you try to get a very broad, de-sedimenting, historically conscious way of consuming and organizing culture so as to be a 'good person', though of course (of course!) it's possible to be a good person without doing any of that. It's also, I think, somewhat less likely for a person exposed to mostly just one thing and one way of thinking about things (for instance) to have a broad, 'good' view on things.
As a PS, I think Jonathan Bogart had a really interesting, non-standard list. http://peopleslist.pitchfork.com/list/08f50850/
― BMICHAEL, Monday, 20 August 2012 19:36 (9 months ago) Permalink
I think there's a huge difference between straight white male privilege in a systemic sense (which in this case would be reflected in the official lists published by magazines and professional critics) and the personal way that we interact with art, as reflected in these personal "people's lists". It's bullshit to assume that a straight white man isn't searching for some recognizable voice they can relate to just as much as anyone from a less represented demographic. A lot of people feel isolated, confused, and disaffected despite their privilege, and musical tastes seem to be largely formed in adolescence when those feelings are at their peak. Just because there are a glut of straight white male voices in music doesn't mean that it's any easier for a straight white man to find music that relates to his personal experience. Of course not all art has to be something that you personally identify with but I can't fault a man who only listens to male singers any more than I would fault a woman who only reads books with female protagonists.
― wk, Monday, 20 August 2012 19:39 (9 months ago) Permalink
Good point. Also, mustn't forget that there's a world outside pitchfork where indie rock isn't as prevalent. In my day to day life I rarely meet people who've even heard of Animal Collective, but plenty who love Rhianna and so on... Indie music by definition is supposed to represent independence, alternativeness, otherness and by extension exclusivity and elitism. There's an irony at play when this becomes considered a 'norm'. That said, in my IRL experiences, pitchfork music is miles away from the norm of what people listen to. I'm sure if I lives in an area like Dalston or Williamsburg this might not be the case and nearly everyone I speak to would be a Sleigh Bells fan, but I still see this as 'alternative' music.
― Julian Asshole (dog latin), Monday, 20 August 2012 19:48 (9 months ago) Permalink
I think Jonathan Bogart had a really interesting, non-standard list. http://peopleslist.pitchfork.com/list/08f50850/
I guess this is partly what we're talking about, because maybe this is a 'non-standard list' for straight white indie-rock dudes, but, you know, his number one is the biggest pop star of today. How is that non-standard? Almost all of his picks are massive sellers and/or already have plenty of critical acclaim. How is that non-standard? And he includes the cocking Libertines. It's a terrible terrible boring list.
― emil.y, Monday, 20 August 2012 19:50 (9 months ago) Permalink
It's non-standard because most of the albums don't have pictures.
― Evan, Monday, 20 August 2012 19:56 (9 months ago) Permalink
Basically, to sum all this up, my list is good and yours is bad.
― kornrulez6969, Monday, 20 August 2012 19:57 (9 months ago) Permalink
that "cocking" libertines album is great imo
― flopson, Monday, 20 August 2012 19:59 (9 months ago) Permalink
Life Is Peachy surprisingly absent from that one (xpost)
― some dude, Monday, 20 August 2012 19:59 (9 months ago) Permalink
But isn't 'boring' completely relative? I get bored by my own music collection, hence why I'm always on the look out for new stuff. I know if I were to say '4' was my favourite album of the last 16 years my friends (who know me well enough and know I have a varied palate) would probably think I was kidding. Same as if I said it was the Libertines. Those would be unusual choices by my own standards but not by others.
― Julian Asshole (dog latin), Monday, 20 August 2012 20:02 (9 months ago) Permalink
― Evan, Monday, August 20, 2012 8:56 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
A majority of the albums do have pictures. I counted. Because I am anal.
Tbh this is pretty much what I'm thinking.
― emil.y, Monday, 20 August 2012 20:02 (9 months ago) Permalink
goddammit, i forgot guitar romantic too! really regret doing this in the last few hours of the last day...
― contenderizer, Monday, 20 August 2012 20:04 (9 months ago) Permalink
i really like j bogart as a writer but that list really disappointed me. the strokes? the libertines? spoon? I THOUGHT HE WAS BETTER THAN THAT
― lex pretend, Monday, 20 August 2012 20:06 (9 months ago) Permalink
WLTM someone, anyone, without any fucking turn of the century indie on their lists
Basically, to sum all this up, my list is good and yours is bad.Tbh this is pretty much what I'm thinking.
Yes! I haven't seen your list but I'm sure it's godawful. Do yourself a musical favor and listen to The Glands.
― kornrulez6969, Monday, 20 August 2012 20:07 (9 months ago) Permalink
erase the hate lex
― Legendary General Cypher Raige (Gukbe), Monday, 20 August 2012 20:07 (9 months ago) Permalink
Just because there are a glut of straight white male voices in music doesn't mean that it's any easier for a straight white man to find music that relates to his personal experience.
Actually, yes it does. That's exactly what it does mean.
― Turangalila, Monday, 20 August 2012 20:08 (9 months ago) Permalink
haha ya that is such bs
― flopson, Monday, 20 August 2012 20:09 (9 months ago) Permalink
his number one is the biggest pop star of today. How is that non-standard? Almost all of his picks are massive sellers and/or already have plenty of critical acclaim. How is that non-standard?
dont know why popular & non-standard are mutually exclusive also imo you kind of sound like a teenager rn
― flopson, Monday, 20 August 2012 20:10 (9 months ago) Permalink
― emil.y, Monday, August 20, 2012 4:02 PM (4 minutes ago)
Ha I was joking so I didn't bother counting. I do honestly think that the gut reaction to lists with less pictures is that it is non-standard since many lists are just obvious Best New Music nobility and/or Urban Outfitters top sellers.
― Evan, Monday, 20 August 2012 20:10 (9 months ago) Permalink
And just to make sure we understand no picture means not in the database so I'm clear we're on the same page.
― Evan, Monday, 20 August 2012 20:12 (9 months ago) Permalink
I think Jonathan's list without the context of the post he wrote about it does it a disservice. It's also the culmination, in a way, of his war on the album format.
― EZ Snappin, Monday, 20 August 2012 20:12 (9 months ago) Permalink
i'm glad at least someone round here isn't too much of a politically correct hipster to vote for the definitive album of the era, play
― ogmor, Monday, 20 August 2012 20:13 (9 months ago) Permalink
― lex pretend, Monday, August 20, 2012 9:06 PM
none on mine (except i have no list)
― coal, Monday, 20 August 2012 20:14 (9 months ago) Permalink
Xpost No I don't agree that it's bullshit. I eschew 90% of white guitar music I hear. Finding music that relates to one's personal experiences is really really tough no matter who you are. Whether one wants to listen to music that relates to you personally is another matter.
― Julian Asshole (dog latin), Monday, 20 August 2012 20:14 (9 months ago) Permalink
also, we can talk about these theoretical genres that have no or very little female involvement but what makes me suspicious is when i see lists skewed towards genres where there IS a lot of female involvement - that includes indie and pop and dance and rap and in fact almost every genre that western popular music fans listen to - but SOMEHOW all those female artists are just not considered as good as the male ones.
jumping off tim's earlier point about how taste values are passed down to us, i think a great deal of this is because in the wider discourse very very few of those female artists are accorded the kind of respect that their male equivalents get - even when they establish themselves as a Big Deal they're more often considered "divisive" because they kinda get hated on more. or because the distinctive thing they do doesn't jive with boys' club rules - often because they're not "serious" enough, or don't make the right kind of jokes, or are too "shrill" or "hysterical" or all those other adjectives that are routinely applied to women but not men.
― lex pretend, Monday, 20 August 2012 20:15 (9 months ago) Permalink
dont know why popular & non-standard are mutually exclusive
Because 'non-standard' means 'deviating from the norm', and 'popular' implies 'the norm'. Hence why I'm discussing the fact that maybe this is a 'non-standard list' for straight white indie-rock dudes but it isn't non-standard outside that very small pool. And in fact, in the 21st century most straight white indie-rock dudes have followed the trend towards pop music as the go-to hip cultural signifier, so it isn't even very non-standard for them.
imo you kind of sound like a teenager rn
In what way?
― emil.y, Monday, 20 August 2012 20:15 (9 months ago) Permalink
define "a lot of female involvement" -- what % of rappers do you actually think are female, let alone % of albums of any renown released by female rappers?
― some dude, Monday, 20 August 2012 20:18 (9 months ago) Permalink
Finding music that relates to one's personal experiences is really really tough no matter who you are.
even assuming this is true (doesn't matter either way), u can't front like it's not easier for you than for members of groups "represented" by a set of artists much smaller than yours. if it's hard for you imagine how hard it is for someone not white male or straight, right?
― flopson, Monday, 20 August 2012 20:19 (9 months ago) Permalink
No I don't agree that it's bullshit. I eschew 90% of white guitar music I hear. Finding music that relates to one's personal experiences is really really tough no matter who you are. Whether one wants to listen to music that relates to you personally is another matter.
Easier≠easy. It is obviously easier for a white straight male to find music he might relate to on a number of levels. No matter how much you "eschew", there's still just so much more that is easily accessible and available and promoted to you that you are far more likely to find something that speaks to you. That's the luxury of being considered the default in society.
― Melissa W, Monday, 20 August 2012 20:20 (9 months ago) Permalink
this "relates to one's personal experience" thing is a bullshit barometer anyway, wish whoever made up that phrase never polluted this conversation with it (xpost)
― some dude, Monday, 20 August 2012 20:21 (9 months ago) Permalink
there's still just so much more that is easily accessible and available and promoted to you that you are far more likely to find something that speaks to you
yup and that it's considered socially acceptable for you to be into
― lex pretend, Monday, 20 August 2012 20:23 (9 months ago) Permalink
plenty if you look. not all of them become "renowned" though, there are plenty of inbuilt biases that work against female rappers being considered "renowned" artists
― lex pretend, Monday, 20 August 2012 20:25 (9 months ago) Permalink
― Turangalila, Monday, 20 August 2012 20:08 (4 minutes ago) Permalink
Statistically yes, but for the individual, not necessarily. Unless you believe that all white men are the same and have the same life experiences. There are plenty of white-male-dominated musical movements that developed as a reaction against other musical movements that were also dominated by white men. Conversely there is no lack of african american voices in popular music but that doesn't mean that there aren't still systemic biases against african americans.
― wk, Monday, 20 August 2012 20:25 (9 months ago) Permalink
"if you look" is the operative phrase there, homie
― some dude, Monday, 20 August 2012 20:26 (9 months ago) Permalink
also, we can talk about these theoretical genres that have no or very little female involvement but what makes me suspicious is when i see lists skewed towards genres where there IS a lot of female involvement - that includes indie and pop and dance and rap and in fact almost every genre that western popular music fans listen to - but SOMEHOW all those female artists are just not considered as good as the male ones.― lex pretend, Monday, August 20, 2012 1:15 PMdefine "a lot of female involvement" -- what % of rappers do you actually think are female, let alone % of albums of any renown released by female rappers?― some dude, Monday, August 20, 2012 1:18 PM
― lex pretend, Monday, August 20, 2012 1:15 PM
― some dude, Monday, August 20, 2012 1:18 PM
― contenderizer, Monday, 20 August 2012 20:27 (9 months ago) Permalink
and even if you do look, you're likely to find a hell of a lot more male rappers
WLTM someone, anyone, without a single fucking electronic instrument on their list
^ approximately as winning
― contenderizer, Monday, 20 August 2012 20:28 (9 months ago) Permalink
well there's the thing isn't it, how many people out there are actually looking for female rappers? and...why not? because they're not motivated to hear that perspective in rap?
― lex pretend, Monday, 20 August 2012 20:28 (9 months ago) Permalink
well, the listenership of female rappers is probably HIGHER than the percentage of women in the rap game, so arguably they are being sought out
― some dude, Monday, 20 August 2012 20:30 (9 months ago) Permalink
holy shit are you saying that even white dudes against other white dudes have whole musical movements for a white dude to relate to
― some white dude (Turangalila), Monday, 20 August 2012 20:30 (9 months ago) Permalink
no you're right that was stupid. white dudes shouldn't relate to anything
― wk, Monday, 20 August 2012 20:34 (9 months ago) Permalink
― lex pretend, Monday, August 20, 2012 1:28 PM (2 minutes ago)
well, rap arose from a specific cultural context. as it grows out from that point, it necessarily changes. maybe we think it isn't changing fast enough, but it seems to be pretty remarkably adaptable.
― contenderizer, Monday, 20 August 2012 20:34 (9 months ago) Permalink
i mean like i'm not trying to defend jeffrey bogarts garish list, but i at least will acknowledge it is hideous in a particular way. like imo a list is more than the sum of its parts & i think a list full of noise or krautrock albums could be as "standard" as a list of pop albums (altho if u are defining "standard" to mean "popular" i guess u are right tautologically). like say take something like tim's list upthread, it's non-standard in the sense that he's probably one of the only people that would have made such a list, yet a lot of the albums are very popular (prob more than in jb list), and many are critically acclaimed
― flopson, Monday, 20 August 2012 20:34 (9 months ago) Permalink
My god, it's full of straw.
― Melissa W, Monday, 20 August 2012 20:36 (9 months ago) Permalink
turangalila's initial post was pretty simple and uncontroversial & i don't know if the people who are now debating it misunderstood it or what but
― flopson, Monday, 20 August 2012 20:37 (9 months ago) Permalink
it's funny how we're savagely picking apart all these lists that are so much cooler and more varied than the actual poll results will be whenever they're published
― some dude, Monday, 20 August 2012 20:38 (9 months ago) Permalink
also who said that white dudes can only relate to music made by white dudes? isn't that line of thinking only here because it's the white dude defence?
― lex pretend, Monday, 20 August 2012 20:41 (9 months ago) Permalink
I think we were closer to the real issues with gender as opposed to race/culture. Also all of this is under the assumption that people listen to music because they find it "relatable".
― Legendary General Cypher Raige (Gukbe), Monday, 20 August 2012 20:42 (9 months ago) Permalink
I'm like the white people from that Chappelle sketch with John Mayer, except if it was Mark Kozelek or something.
― Evan, Monday, 20 August 2012 20:42 (9 months ago) Permalink
My list has more music made by politically repressed Nigerians than yours. Why are you do narrow-minded?
― kornrulez6969, Monday, 20 August 2012 20:44 (9 months ago) Permalink
i have absolutely nothing against wk, but i really do suspect that "the glut of straight white male voices" in certain types of music in fact does make it "easier for a straight white man to find music that relates to his personal experience." i meant, it has to be at least a little easier, right? cultural commonalities are a big part of whatever it is that allows us to identify and relate.
not that there's a crippling absence of gay, nonwhite and female voices in music, generally speaking...
― contenderizer, Monday, 20 August 2012 20:44 (9 months ago) Permalink
Also all of this is under the assumption that people listen to music because they find it "relatable".
― Legendary General Cypher Raige (Gukbe), Monday, August 20, 2012 4:42 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark
and who even believes that? hands up please
― some dude, Monday, 20 August 2012 20:44 (9 months ago) Permalink
i think it figures in
― contenderizer, Monday, 20 August 2012 20:45 (9 months ago) Permalink
you'd think, but I don't move anything like Jagger xpost
― Legendary General Cypher Raige (Gukbe), Monday, 20 August 2012 20:45 (9 months ago) Permalink
My interests in melody, structure, and aesthetic seem to relate directly with my favorite artists. I clearly gravitate to certain sounds and when done in particular ways I respond to that familiarity that can feel as intense as nostalgia.
― Evan, Monday, 20 August 2012 20:55 (9 months ago) Permalink
I thought Bogart's list was interesting in that he included two "classical" albums in his top 20 (Lorraine Hunt Lieberson and John Adams).
― squicky chutzpah in the drug biz (jaymc), Monday, 20 August 2012 20:58 (9 months ago) Permalink
OK this thread has exploded while I was away, and I've missed about a billion posts. BUT.
Maybe "relatable" isn't even the right word or concept.
But what it is about, is whose lived experiences are represented or depicted in the bulk of critically acclaimed and canonised art, and whose aren't.
Like, I kinda wanna issue a challenge to anyone who says that SWM have such a hard time finding stuff that represents or depicts their experiences:
For a whole week, try to listen exclusively to nothing buy music made by women. It doesn't matter what the genre is, just try to listen to stuff made by women, for a week. And in the lack of a Bechdel Test for music, we'll define that as: the music must be written or at least co-written by a woman, and if there are vocals, the lead vocal must be a woman. So that's a huge and generous and wide-open definition there.
(And for comparison, if you want, listen to nothing but SWM for a week, and see whether your range of choices is easier or harder, wider or narrower, or what.)
Go out and do this, and keep a list of the artists and genres that are open to you. And then come back and talk about it, and see whose experiences are more widely represented. Don't just talk theoretical bullshit about what you think is or isn't out there. Go out and try to find it, and see whether it is hard or easy to find, when you are specifically looking.
― my god it's full of straw (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Monday, 20 August 2012 20:59 (9 months ago) Permalink
agree with this
― flopson, Monday, 20 August 2012 21:02 (9 months ago) Permalink
"Easier" was the wrong word to put in there.
If a woman listens to nothing but music with women vocalists, I don't think anyone here has a big problem with that do they? It's understandable that she might be turned off by a male dominated point of view in much of popular music. Obviously male voices are privileged in society as a whole and in popular music specifically.
The problem is that men in their teens and twenties don't go through life thinking that they are lucky for their privilege and they're totally secure in their sense of identity, therefore they should make an effort to explore voices outside of their own experience. That would be a great, enlightened point of view and one that should be the standard for people who are writing about music professionally, or working within the music industry. But it seems silly to deny that there's some kind of basic human emotional response to that feeling of "that's just like me." One of us, one of us. I don't personally need that out of art. Or at least not all of the time, or not at this point in my life maybe. But I don't begrudge people who do. And I don't think a lack of representation in the media is the only valid reason for a person to seek out that kind of personal identification with art. So I don't think you can necessarily look at the music collection of a dude who only listens to dude music and assume that it's an indicator of bias. It might be, but it seems a little more complicated to me.
― wk, Monday, 20 August 2012 21:08 (9 months ago) Permalink
you mean artists new to us? xposts
because if not i could probably do that with just music from this year no problem.
― Legendary General Cypher Raige (Gukbe), Monday, 20 August 2012 21:08 (9 months ago) Permalink
I was totally wrong to put easy/hard in there. My point is that access to a broad range of voices that reinforce one's identity doesn't necessarily lessen the desire to lose oneself in that kind of insularity, does it?
― wk, Monday, 20 August 2012 21:11 (9 months ago) Permalink
sad to see this pitchfork thread devolve into fighting about white guys and indie rock :(
― Jandek at the Disco (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Monday, 20 August 2012 21:15 (9 months ago) Permalink
And this is relevant when it comes to music criticism and the creation of that canon through listmaking by professional critics. But I don't think it's as relevant when it comes down to the individual taste of a non-professional. And this is a "people's list". Of course that's complicated by the fact that a lot of ilxors are pro critics so WCC's game is more fairly applied to ilm than it would be to the general public. Plus this list is going to be published by Pitchfork and therefore presumably gain some sense of legitimacy or editorial approval so there is a chance that those personal tastes will get canonized into another list that will reinforce those biases.
― wk, Monday, 20 August 2012 21:16 (9 months ago) Permalink
Probably a zillion xposts by now...
Easier≠easy. It is obviously easier for a white straight male to find music he might relate to on a number of levels. No matter how much you "eschew", there's still just so much more that is easily accessible and available and promoted to you that you are far more likely to find something that speaks to you. That's the luxury of being considered the default in society.― Melissa W, Monday, 20 August 2012 20:20 (22 minutes ago) Permalink
― Melissa W, Monday, 20 August 2012 20:20 (22 minutes ago) Permalink
i have absolutely nothing against wk, but i really do suspect that "the glut of straight white male voices" in certain types of music in fact does make it "easier for a straight white man to find music that relates to his personal experience." i meant, it has to be at least a little easier, right? cultural commonalities are a big part of whatever it is that allows us to identify and relate.not that there's a crippling absence of gay, nonwhite and female voices in music, generally speaking...― contenderizer, Monday, 20 August 2012 21:44 (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― contenderizer, Monday, 20 August 2012 21:44 (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
Quite a lot of thoughts here
- I'm not even sure there is that much of a bias towards white male orientated rock, other than on things like this list. IRL popular music has many many non-white, gay and female voices. Guitar rock, if we're going to define it this way, is absolutely not a 'norm' like it was even a few years ago. And what counts as "white male" music exactly? Is Autechre white music and Actress not? Am I more inclined to identify with the lyrics of the Libertines than St Vincent? (answer: no, if you hadn't guessed). Would I necessarily hold the same values, as a 31yo SWM from Hitchin, UK, as that of a SWM band of 21yo's from over the pond? Am I more likely to find some sort of lyrical or cultural connect with a female band of similar years who live in my locale?
Despite being one, I don't necessarily identify myself on a day-to-day basis as a "straight white male". You could say that's because I see myself as a cultural 'norm' and therefore don't have to, which I understand, but really I'm just a bloke from Hitchin, Hertfordshire who likes certain things, dislikes others. I don't go around thinking 'Yes, this straight white male music is the music I can really relate to'. Yes there's a lot of stuff out there that is made by and marketed towards 'straight white males' but there's also a lot of music marketed at black teenagers, middle-aged women etc.. There are also a lot of SWM walking around who would rather shit through their mouths than have to endure an indie rock album.
The question is, where does this feeling arise that there is somehow more music available to the SWM than there is to other cultural groups? Is it really valid? If so - why does it happen?
― Julian Asshole (dog latin), Monday, 20 August 2012 21:16 (9 months ago) Permalink
sorry that post ended up mentioning where I lived twice...
― Julian Asshole (dog latin), Monday, 20 August 2012 21:17 (9 months ago) Permalink
(And for comparison, if you want, listen to nothing but SWM for a week, and see whether your range of choices is easier or harder, wider or narrower, or what.)Go out and do this, and keep a list of the artists and genres that are open to you. And then come back and talk about it, and see whose experiences are more widely represented. Don't just talk theoretical bullshit about what you think is or isn't out there. Go out and try to find it, and see whether it is hard or easy to find, when you are specifically looking.― my god it's full of straw (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Monday, 20 August 2012 21:59 (17 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― my god it's full of straw (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Monday, 20 August 2012 21:59 (17 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
Okay cool, that is a point there.
― Julian Asshole (dog latin), Monday, 20 August 2012 21:20 (9 months ago) Permalink
But I don't think it's as relevant when it comes down to the individual taste of a non-professional.
i think most music fans who are obsessive enough to make a list like this would consider themselves to listen as uh "seriously" or whatever as any professional critic. there are plenty of such people that i pretty much consider as de facto critics (ie i read what they write about music, i take recommendations from them etc).
anyway i think it's relevant anyway, because i think that "white dudes only want to listen to music made by white dudes" straw argument doesn't actually hold up, it's not a good defence. i think very few people need to hear music made by someone exactly like them in order for it to be resonant. i think more important reasons for the perennial dearth of women in these lists are things like female artists not being presented to music listeners in the properly "credible" ways, and female artists often being seen as less credible choices (and lots more factors that have to do with institutional and societal sexism - not nec active misogyny but a low-level background sexism that people take on board unconsciously). and because of that i think flagging this issue up is relevant to any music fan just because it might enable them to discover new artists they hadn't considered before.
― lex pretend, Monday, 20 August 2012 21:22 (9 months ago) Permalink
― Legendary General Cypher Raige (Gukbe), Monday, 20 August 2012 21:26 (9 months ago) Permalink
i think more important reasons for the perennial dearth of women in these lists are things like female artists not being presented to music listeners in the properly "credible" ways, and female artists often being seen as less credible choices (and lots more factors that have to do with institutional and societal sexism - not nec active misogyny but a low-level background sexism that people take on board unconsciously). and because of that i think flagging this issue up is relevant to any music fan just because it might enable them to discover new artists they hadn't considered before.
Good post lex.
But what about all the female artists who really are revered, often to the point of living legend - Grace Jones, Kate Bush, Bjork for example? Are they just exceptions/anomalies in a sea of misrepresentation?
― Julian Asshole (dog latin), Monday, 20 August 2012 21:28 (9 months ago) Permalink
I don't think anyone is saying that female artists that fit this criteria exist, they just don't make up as much of a percentage as maybe they should
― Legendary General Cypher Raige (Gukbe), Monday, 20 August 2012 21:29 (9 months ago) Permalink
Yes. As evidenced by there being so few of them, and by the fact that every new female artist has to be framed in reference to them.
Xpost
― Sick Mouthy (Scik Mouthy), Monday, 20 August 2012 21:30 (9 months ago) Permalink
very few people need to hear music made by someone exactly like them in order for it to be resonant.
OTM. Much of what I listen to is by Austro-German dudes from the 18th century.
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Monday, 20 August 2012 21:30 (9 months ago) Permalink
Ha, if I were to listen to people like me, I'd need to really spend time with Sum 41 and Billy Talent.
also i think a part of this is Album lists versus Tracks/Singles. Album lists have always skewed more white/male/rockist I think.
― Legendary General Cypher Raige (Gukbe), Monday, 20 August 2012 21:31 (9 months ago) Permalink
I hate Muse.
― Sick Mouthy (Scik Mouthy), Monday, 20 August 2012 21:31 (9 months ago) Permalink
Despite being one, I don't necessarily identify myself on a day-to-day basis as a "straight white male". You could say that's because I see myself as a cultural 'norm' and therefore don't have to, which I understand, but really I'm just a bloke from Hitchin, Hertfordshire who likes certain things, dislikes others. I don't go around thinking 'Yes, this straight white male music is the music I can really relate to'.
― Julian Asshole (dog latin), Monday, August 20, 2012 2:16 PM
we can't wave away our cultural position simply by saying that we're not generally aware of it, though. that kind of "no really, i'm not a member of group X, i'm just me" attitude is typically the product of relative privilege. straight white males aren't denied anything on the basis of who you they to be (or not much, anyway), so they don't really have to think about it.
i don't mean that as a slam, but it's something i try to keep in mind as a straight white male: the fact that my attitudes, tastes and values are probably reflective products of my privilege in ways i'll never be able to see. that awareness makes "mere personal taste" not so mere, especially to the extent that straight white males still tend to dominate the critical discourse.
― contenderizer, Monday, 20 August 2012 21:32 (9 months ago) Permalink
the implication of this being true is of course that the question "where are all the women" is even more necessary to ask because it can't, in actual fact, be batted away with nonsense demographic explanations
― lex pretend, Monday, 20 August 2012 21:32 (9 months ago) Permalink
Yeah, I think this is a big factor. Unravelling why is a big task though.
― Sick Mouthy (Scik Mouthy), Monday, 20 August 2012 21:32 (9 months ago) Permalink
edit to my last post:
"straight white males aren't denied anything on the basis of who you they seem to be(or not much, anyway)..."
― contenderizer, Monday, 20 August 2012 21:33 (9 months ago) Permalink
pro tip from someone who is privileged in some ways and not privileged in others, saying "but i'm not that privileged" or "but i don't actively think about my privilege" is about the most wrong response to the subject possible
― lex pretend, Monday, 20 August 2012 21:34 (9 months ago) Permalink
SWM's make music that fits into the aesthetics and signifiers and understandings of what makes 'good albums' because they're more able to, because of privilege?
― Sick Mouthy (Scik Mouthy), Monday, 20 August 2012 21:37 (9 months ago) Permalink
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Monday, August 20, 2012 5:30 PM (6 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
If "relating to me" means it is similar to aesthetics of music or themes in my life that helped make me who I am and that resonates with me than I come from somewhere similar as the artist.
― Evan, Monday, 20 August 2012 21:37 (9 months ago) Permalink
What makes 'good albums' in the minds of mainly SWM critics, I should say.
― Sick Mouthy (Scik Mouthy), Monday, 20 August 2012 21:38 (9 months ago) Permalink
Reference points, maybe? For however many decades music critics were essentially creating the canon were men, and as such privileged male music? Also I think the economics of the durability of the album over the single played a role.
― Legendary General Cypher Raige (Gukbe), Monday, 20 August 2012 21:42 (9 months ago) Permalink
not exactly:
if SWMs share a culture in common (or cultures in common, or w/e), andif our sense of artistic value is in part dependent on our cultural conditioning...
then yes, it seems likely that SWMs making music will have an advantage when it comes to producing the sort of work that other SWMs will find value in.
to the extent that SWMs dominate the critical discourse, this becomes a real problem.
― contenderizer, Monday, 20 August 2012 21:44 (9 months ago) Permalink
btw i've known several women who listen almost exclusively to music made by men, and i imagine there are a lot of people like that out there, where do they fall on the finger wagging continuum?
― some dude, Monday, 20 August 2012 21:46 (9 months ago) Permalink
individual exceptions do not disprove the general principle
― contenderizer, Monday, 20 August 2012 21:47 (9 months ago) Permalink
if they drown, we know they were actually women
― big-mammed punisher (strongo hulkington's ghost dad), Monday, 20 August 2012 21:48 (9 months ago) Permalink
No context needed
― Evan, Monday, 20 August 2012 21:48 (9 months ago) Permalink
i feel like someone made a witch-drowning joke already on this thread somewhere but jesus this thing's gotten long
― big-mammed punisher (strongo hulkington's ghost dad), Monday, 20 August 2012 21:49 (9 months ago) Permalink
is the general principle that people mostly listen to musicians of the same race/gender? because i'm not sure that's true with respect to female listeners, is what i'm saying. (xpost)
― some dude, Monday, 20 August 2012 21:49 (9 months ago) Permalink
help we're stuck in my mid nineties graduate symposium on gender studies
― a regina spektor is haunting europe (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 20 August 2012 21:49 (9 months ago) Permalink
is the general principle that people mostly listen to musicians of the same race/gender?
no
― lex pretend, Monday, 20 August 2012 21:50 (9 months ago) Permalink
Yeah I mean, there are black people in Dave Matthews Band
― Evan, Monday, 20 August 2012 21:51 (9 months ago) Permalink
and white people in Animal Collective iirc
― a regina spektor is haunting europe (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 20 August 2012 21:52 (9 months ago) Permalink
I haven't caught AC on BET recently
― Evan, Monday, 20 August 2012 21:52 (9 months ago) Permalink
Maze ft. Avey Tare
― a regina spektor is haunting europe (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 20 August 2012 21:54 (9 months ago) Permalink
Maroon 5 ft. Wiz Khalifa
― Legendary General Cypher Raige (Gukbe), Monday, 20 August 2012 21:55 (9 months ago) Permalink
The process is slow but I feel like all parts of the industry have a "better" ratio of women involved in higher ranking positions every year. Of course they're still subjected to incredible institutionalised sexism but even that is being slowly corroded. I would say that when I started working in the industry (Working in the actual "industry" part of music, not just putting on hardcore shows in basements) it was 90% male aside from assistants and publicists and that's probably closer to 70-75% now. Still far from perfect but an improvement of note in the last 10 years. I'm not sure how long that'll take to be filtered into the world of criticism but taking Pitchfork as an example, they've brought at least 3 female writers closer into the core staff that I've noticed in the past year (Laura Snapes, Jenn Pelly, Lindsay Zoladz). I think that's noticably improved the critical balance there. For instance, I think their take on Grimes is radically different to the average mid 30s swm journalist.Anyway, not shilling for p4k but just thought I'd bring a little light to the end of the debate tunnel.
― Oblique Strategies, Monday, 20 August 2012 21:57 (9 months ago) Permalink
I don't think it's necessarily as simple as "music made by gender-race is more relatable or palatable to people in that group". For example, look at the rap-ification that's spread from Village Voice/NYT/Pitchfork/Stereogum/Grantland — very little of the loudest voices (to me) were black men pushing Clipse, Wayne, Kanye, etc. And hey, I'm not a black man and I write mostly about rap music. But what I'm saying is that there are definite cultural-artificial trends perpetuated by people who get to make those trends.
Cf, Sickmouthy's off-hand comment about women not getting free-standing criticism or the much-cited VIDA stats (http://www.vidaweb.org/the-count-2010).
I honestly think from an outside perspective that Pitchfork has made a concerted effort to hire more women and people of color, and that their work has improved as a whole because of it.
I thought, since I came to this thread via Southall's blog post about it, that this is what the conversation here was supposed to be about. And from my perspective, the way virtually everything gets framed in the media is driven by a consistently SWM (as it's put here) perspective. I mean, just to repeat a point from above, white guitar rock isn't even that popular, but it's still hanging onto the catbird seat in some editorial spheres. It seems like these are facts. The sort of angry reaction that reads like "oh I guess straight white guys just don't have a lane" — not the problem itself, which I think is getting worked on — is what's sort of execrable to me.
― BMICHAEL, Monday, 20 August 2012 21:57 (9 months ago) Permalink
I was hoping people would rag on my list but it didn't last very long. I only was called racist once :(
― Evan, Monday, 20 August 2012 21:59 (9 months ago) Permalink
As I said above, people are less likely to focus on listening to music "like them" than on listening to stuff they can talk about with people "like them:"
― Tim F, Monday, 20 August 2012 21:59 (9 months ago) Permalink
apologies for the late 90s gender symposium thing, but...
i would say that the general principle is that we are all the products of our acculturation, and we express our acculturation in our preferences. while individuals of course vary, the aggregate expression of a society's preferences tends to be reflective of its dominant culture, and this aggregate expression is fed back into all of that society's cultures in a self-perpetuating loop. the mechanics of this are no mystery. if a society's underlying "rules" of artistic quality were written ages ago by a bunch of straight white men in order to canonize another bunch of straight white men, and if straight white men continue to dominate the discourse, then it's likely that the discourse is colored by that. this will be true even if the straight white men in question are "trying to be good about it."
― contenderizer, Monday, 20 August 2012 22:00 (9 months ago) Permalink
Not sure whether this has much to do with the current discussion, but I thought I'd leave this article here in case it's interesting to y'all.
http://thequietus.com/articles/09465-rainbow-ambiguity
Maybe it's a case that demographics that aren't SWM are marketed towards in a pandering, condescending or simply one-track way? As someone mentioned upthread, female artists are often compared to only a handful of standbys. Afro-American music often struggles to be labelled as anything other than rap or r'n'b. And music by gay artists is yet another very tricky subject - i.e. if an artist is gay, it is more often than not turned into a big deal (and by extension presented in a particular way) even if the lyrical matter does not deal with gay topics.
― Julian Asshole (dog latin), Monday, 20 August 2012 22:02 (9 months ago) Permalink
― Tim F, Monday, August 20, 2012 5:59 PM (59 seconds ago) Bookmark
that's true-ish but i wonder how much most people (outside of ilx, anyway) place any kind of value on what music they can talk about with the people around them. i sometimes feel like people here get a very skewed idea sometimes of what i listen to because i actively discuss only a relatively small amount of what i'm listening to, while not letting the lack of ilx interest in talking about the other stuff stop me from enjoying it.
― some dude, Monday, 20 August 2012 22:03 (9 months ago) Permalink
ie. I think it's more important for people to expand the range of their conversations about music than the range of stuff they listen to. One reason why ilx is perennially great.
― Tim F, Monday, 20 August 2012 22:04 (9 months ago) Permalink
Yeah some dude but we're talking about people who e.g. make their own lists for pitchfork, right?
― Tim F, Monday, 20 August 2012 22:05 (9 months ago) Permalink
― Tim F, Monday, August 20, 2012 5:59 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
Funny, when I started obsessing over the music that spoke to me specifically rather than the music we shared interest in our general conversations on music kind of puttered out for the most part.
― Evan, Monday, 20 August 2012 22:05 (9 months ago) Permalink
I know Meryl Streep is a gay icon
― a regina spektor is haunting europe (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 20 August 2012 22:05 (9 months ago) Permalink
if "talk about" encompasses making lists then OK, but i wasn't getting that (xpost)
― some dude, Monday, 20 August 2012 22:06 (9 months ago) Permalink
we = my friends and I
― Evan, Monday, 20 August 2012 22:06 (9 months ago) Permalink
Also some dude I *was* surprised by some of your choices e.g. Limp Bizkit.
― Tim F, Monday, 20 August 2012 22:06 (9 months ago) Permalink
Yeah "talk about" in the broadest sense - sorry on my phone so not getting xposts.
― Tim F, Monday, 20 August 2012 22:07 (9 months ago) Permalink
ha i have probably talked about bizkit on ilx more than half the things on my list!
― some dude, Monday, 20 August 2012 22:08 (9 months ago) Permalink
Yeah I knew you liked them, but those conversations aren't the ones I see you in - the reaction is about my experience of ILX as much as yours.
― Tim F, Monday, 20 August 2012 22:10 (9 months ago) Permalink
The extent to which we keep vital details about the composition of our tastes and worldview from our friends, I've found, is a sad reality of aging.
― a regina spektor is haunting europe (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 20 August 2012 22:12 (9 months ago) Permalink
(in which definition I fold in "marriage, kids, moving away")
― a regina spektor is haunting europe (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 20 August 2012 22:13 (9 months ago) Permalink
I feel that way about eg. books and tv but not really music.
― Tim F, Monday, 20 August 2012 22:15 (9 months ago) Permalink
Also food guilt, definitely.
― Tim F, Monday, 20 August 2012 22:16 (9 months ago) Permalink
food guilt?! what like...what foods you like?
― lex pretend, Monday, 20 August 2012 22:17 (9 months ago) Permalink
more so with film and books, sure, but my music listening and how it intersects with the lives and tastes of my friends is increasingly...balkanized?
― a regina spektor is haunting europe (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 20 August 2012 22:17 (9 months ago) Permalink
― a regina spektor is haunting europe (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, August 20, 2012 10:12 PM (5 minutes ago)
Is that because your music taste is more abstruse than your TV/film tastes? Or because you're embarrassed? That seems like it would be a bummer, if the latter.
― BMICHAEL, Monday, 20 August 2012 22:19 (9 months ago) Permalink
oh as in like consciously choosing to talk about certain types of food or restaurants rather than focus on the amount of pub meals I consume.
― Tim F, Monday, 20 August 2012 22:19 (9 months ago) Permalink
Balkanization, though, definitely. I could probably count the no. of conversations I've had about uk funky IRL on my hands.
― Tim F, Monday, 20 August 2012 22:21 (9 months ago) Permalink
― big-mammed punisher (strongo hulkington's ghost dad), Monday, August 20, 2012 4:49 PM (17 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
whenever i hear a drowning joke now i just assume its going to be a whiney zing so this was a refreshing change of pace regardless
― protected by kl0pper. stand back (D-40), Monday, 20 August 2012 22:32 (9 months ago) Permalink
The extent to which we keep vital details about the composition of our tastes and worldview from our friends, I've found, is a sad reality of aging.― a regina spektor is haunting europe (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 20 August 2012 23:12 (7 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― a regina spektor is haunting europe (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 20 August 2012 23:12 (7 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
Or maybe it's something to do with CDs, vinyl, books etc not so much as on display in our homes and more locked up in digital formats?
― Julian Asshole (dog latin), Monday, 20 August 2012 22:34 (9 months ago) Permalink
anyway i think it's relevant anyway, because i think that "white dudes only want to listen to music made by white dudes" straw argument doesn't actually hold up, it's not a good defence. i think very few people need to hear music made by someone exactly like them in order for it to be resonant.
I never said that white dudes only want to listen to music made by white dudes and I don't think anyone else did either. First of all I'm talking specifically and exclusively about the voice. The human voice in a pop song functions more like the protagonist in a work of fiction. So I think it's less like "where are the female directors in your list" and more like "where are the female leading roles." Both relevant questions of course, but the role of the human voice in a song is more complicated than a simple authorial role.
And "only" isn't the issue either. I agreed upthread that somebody who listened to music only made by men would be questionable but where is the line? Certainly there are black people who listen primarily if not exclusively to hip hop and there are women who only really like to hear women singing. My wife is that way. My 8 yr old daughter is much more interested in music sung by women than by men. Do people honestly not believe that there is some kind of basic human attraction to artistic voices that seem to be "like us"? Obviously this isn't a highly advanced impulse and not something to be celebrated by anyone who would consider themselves musically cultured in any serious way. But I also don't think it's necessarily always a sign of privilege and bias unless you believe that white male privilege somehow eliminates that impulse toward recognition.
― wk, Monday, 20 August 2012 22:36 (9 months ago) Permalink
Oh no -- I mean discussion. The simple answer is that I care more about these things than my friends.
― a regina spektor is haunting europe (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 20 August 2012 22:36 (9 months ago) Permalink
i really enjoy discussions like this, and then all of a sudden, i really don't
― contenderizer, Monday, 20 August 2012 23:37 (9 months ago) Permalink
so sincere apologies to anyone on a shorter leash
― contenderizer, Monday, 20 August 2012 23:38 (9 months ago) Permalink
There've been some interesting (and rather lengthy, post-wise and thread-wise) debates on ILM recently. Definitely like this kind of thing. I'd like to make peace with anyone who might have been rubbed up the wrong way by some of my posts. Often I'm at work, on the hoof or doing something else that distracts me from posting and that can have a detrimental effect on how they get interpreted. All the same, with these discussions I feel I'm kind of learning a lot about cultural/critical theory - stuff maybe others have thought through a lot more than me - but I often find it easier to learn about the argument through the argument itself. Devil's advocate blahdyblah... Maybe not the best attitude to take online I realise. So anyway, apologies - It's music chat at the end of the day.
Hey, when do the results come out anyway?
― Julian Asshole (dog latin), Monday, 20 August 2012 23:52 (9 months ago) Permalink
It just says results this week.
― Evan, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 00:08 (9 months ago) Permalink
i am going for 100% women week. so far all i have learnt is that i am really bad at guessing the gender of ppl w/ non-english names
― ogmor, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 00:11 (9 months ago) Permalink
I'm going to stay out of the general issues here (I've learned my lessons, thanks), but I want to make a couple comments.
I think something lex said upthread makes sense: that it would be more helpful to look at specific genres and how gender plays out in each, rather than taking all of music (or at least all of popular music). I hope that was a reasonable paraphrase, feeling lazy about searching the thread.
And for an example of a genre that has hardly any female artists involved, I think salsa is a pretty strong example of that (excluding Cuban timba, which is sometimes classified as salsa, but which is also different enough to be broken off and treated separately). I think reggaeton, or Puerto Rican reggaeton anyway, also follows this pattern, but I am not familiar enough to say so confidently. Two of the three women I've gotten to know virtually via a shared interest in salsa expressed a dislike for most female vocalists (in salsa or out), though there were also some exceptions, but within salsa, they were mostly the few obvious exceptions. In one case, it mostly came down to Celia Cruz and that was it. I wouldn't say the third woman ever expressed that preference per se, though she was joking with me lately about how all the new (non-Latin in this case) music I was sharing with her featured female vocalists, while the music she was sharing (Latin, but not salsa) featured male vocals. (In fact, I ended up pointing out to her that almost all the salsa and reggaeton I listen to features male vocals. I mean, it was kind of like she was the one forgetting all that other music I listen to in a male-dominated genre.) Also, the common wisdom about Latin dance music is that women determine the trends. If women dance to it, then it flies; not otherwise. I'm just saying that is what I've heard or read (mostly read) expressed as the general view of how things go, not claiming it's true.
And yes, I can rattle off the names of some other female vocalists in salsa, outside of Celia Cruz, but they are still exceptions.
(I never talk much about new salsa, incidentally, because I think most of the recent stuff sucks at this point.)
― _Rudipherous_, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 00:14 (9 months ago) Permalink
So you could have a genre in which women have some power as an audience, as consumers, and they could end up supporting that it stay male-dominated. Of course, that doesn't mean they aren't doing so because they have introjected sexist values; but maybe it could be something else, or something more complicated anyway.)
― _Rudipherous_, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 00:20 (9 months ago) Permalink
Also, I wish I had seen this in time to do a list, though I hardly ever read Pitchfork so I'm not the target audience.
― _Rudipherous_, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 00:23 (9 months ago) Permalink
Make a list anyway! Just type it out. 1996 - 2011
― Evan, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 00:26 (9 months ago) Permalink
I'd be very curious to see yr list if you can still be bothered.
― ogmor, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 00:27 (9 months ago) Permalink
I hope mine didn't make me out to be some late 90s emo guy.
― Evan, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 00:29 (9 months ago) Permalink
If women dance to it, then it flies
i think this is a pretty pervasive idea w/ dance music. lots of guys don't want to perform their masculinity in a room full of guys i guess. idk i find the politics/difficulties of getting groups of ppl to come out & dance in different places very revealing.
― ogmor, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 00:30 (9 months ago) Permalink
may also reflect "women just want to dance" / "men just want to dance with women" assumptions
― contenderizer, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 00:36 (9 months ago) Permalink
(One problem with explaining away male dominance in salsa via: "well, the women ultimately decide because if they won't dance to it, then nobody is happy and the music fails," is that it's not as though it's exclusively music to dance to. The Fania era is known for some incorporation of socially conscious lyrics (which could just mean reflecting everyday barrio life). And then again, salsa romantica is/was as much about love songs to listen to, though again, the responsibility for the trend tends to be assigned to a female audience (generally in terms of blame). Which is kind of weird since it's often considered less danceable than previous styles of salsa. (But considered by whom? Possibly just really hardcore salseros and salseras.)
Sorry this is all rather niche.)
(And can I just say: Jesus people! Company of Thieves!)
― _Rudipherous_, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 00:36 (9 months ago) Permalink
Yeah, but--the thing is, with a partner dance this is much more of a real issue. It's mostly not common for men or women (more common for women) to dance solo to salsa in a club or relatively open party setting (i.e., not just a small gathering of people who know each other well, where presumably things might be looser). (That's less true in Colombia though, where guys are a little more likely to just dance around solo, maybe in a group of friends. Or so I've heard. Very limited knowledge on what I'm babbling about.)
Maybe I will make a list. The other thing is I really have a blind spot for the 90s so it's probably going to be at most four albums from then.
― _Rudipherous_, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 00:40 (9 months ago) Permalink
Sorry this is all rather niche
no, the niche pov is v helpful! the thicket of unattached generalities becomes smothering otherwise. and it's interesting to hear about how these things play out in (what is to me) a less familiar context.
― contenderizer, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 00:41 (9 months ago) Permalink
The example of salsa makes me think about the issue of specialization. I don't know if I feel more guilty that my list consists almost entirely of white musicians or that some people would consider it almost entirely "lol indie." And why I would consider it valid for a writer to specialize in jazz or salsa but "lol indie" is not seen as a valid specialization.
― wk, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 00:46 (9 months ago) Permalink
From lex pretend:
what makes me suspicious is when i see lists skewed towards genres where there IS a lot of female involvement - that includes indie and pop and dance and rap and in fact almost every genre that western popular music fans listen to - but SOMEHOW all those female artists are just not considered as good as the male ones.
I feel like I can only offer my personal experience on these questions, evidence for the proposition as it were, but this rings true for my list anyway, where (discounting pop and r&b), female acts charted lower than male ones. And I chalk that up to being exposed to predominantly male acts in my formative musical listening years (which p4k had a huuuge influence over).
Harking back to smth White Chocolate Cheesecake said, it's true that it was only upon encountering the poptimists here and elsewhere (incl. p4k) a couple of years ago that I became comfortable with accepting those Usher and Destiny's Child albums I loved as a 14 year old once again. So in my case Tim F's emphasis on the importance of the conversations around music providing models for building yr own identity is absolutely central. And I guess ilx is great because it provides a variety of conversations to contribute to, altho I'm giving this a moralistic spin that is perhaps unwarrented (I'm pretty new here).
This feels like one massive xpost, apologies.
― Mercer Finn, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 02:40 (9 months ago) Permalink
― wk, Monday, August 20, 2012 8:46 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
Well because "lol indie" is too popular among "shallower" demographics that aren't musically mature enough to respect, much less specialize in something like jazz. People don't need a acquired taste for soda and therefore a soda connoisseur wouldn't be as appreciated as a wine connoisseur might.
― Evan, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 02:50 (9 months ago) Permalink
Mercer Finn: Harking back to smth White Chocolate Cheesecake said, it's true that it was only upon encountering the poptimists here and elsewhere (incl. p4k) a couple of years ago that I became comfortable with accepting those Usher and Destiny's Child albums I loved as a 14 year old once again. So in my case Tim F's emphasis on the importance of the conversations around music providing models for building yr own identity is absolutely central. And I guess ilx is great because it provides a variety of conversations to contribute to, altho I'm giving this a moralistic spin that is perhaps unwarrented (I'm pretty new here).
Evan: Well because "lol indie" is too popular among "shallower" demographics that aren't musically mature enough to respect, much less specialize in something like jazz. People don't need a acquired taste for soda and therefore a soda connoisseur wouldn't be as appreciated as a wine connoisseur might.
Another way to express my beef with a lot of the discussion above is that it assumes that it's somehow self-evident what "lived experience" is reflected back to people by a given piece of music.
There is a banal, simplistic sense in which this is correct - e.g. that a male performer reflects a male experience.
Even adopting for the sake of discussion that "lived experience" is a particularly key part of what is communicated by music per se (as opposed to certain more confessionalor "journalistic" forms), as Lex notes above, one of the barriers to the popular/critical uptake of many female artists is that the lived experience they are assumed to communicate by (let's assume male) sceptics is different to that which their fans would say they are communicating - i.e. the allegation that a female singer is shrill or hysterical or man-hating is one that in most cases the fan would just deny, rather than say, "yes, that's one of the things we like."
So what we often relate to - positively or negatively - is really a gloss on (or framework for) the "worldview" expressed by the music, and this gloss is mediated through our experience of the social experience of music (this is particularly apparent when internet dudes talk about the musical taste of their ex-girlfriends).
The distinction between music that we "get" pretty much straightaway and music we really have to work at to enjoy/appreciate/understand (though I use those terms subjectively - i.e. "I feel like I understand what this music is doing" - rather than according to some objective measure of expertise) itself most commonly turns on the distinction between being able to apply a readymade framework (maybe marginally modified from one we've used before) and being forced to build one from scratch, whether through trial and error or by trying to learn from the experiences of others.
Indie music appreciation isn't inherently "shallower" than jazz appreciation, but for people in a certain demographic, frameworks that enable the listener to feel like they "get" the music are more readily available and hence easily adopted and applied.
The risk (though it's only a risk, by no means a certainty) of any form of specialisation or just confined contexts for listening (e.g. a "pitchfork worldview") is not the sclerotisation and hardening of one's taste per se, but that of the frameworks through which the music is perceived. IMO the cause for concern about, say, having hardly any female artists on a list of favourite records is less the possibility that it signals I don't listen to enough female performers, and more the possibility that it indicates I am applying certain frameworks to my engagement with music like a crutch - i.e. less the lack of diversity of records per se than the lack of diversity of relationships with records.
― Tim F, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 03:29 (9 months ago) Permalink
Well because "lol indie" is too popular among "shallower" demographics that aren't musically mature enough to respect, much less specialize in something like jazz.
that's such bullshit, unless I'm misunderstanding what people mean by "lol indie." I meant that my list of favorite stuff from the past decade is heavy on obvious pitchfork stuff like Animal Collective unlike some of the more pop oriented lists people have posted. And I have listened to jazz since I was a child and studied and played it starting at the age of 13. You really think that contemporary pop or hip hop is as "musically mature" as the kind of stuff pitchfork regularly covers?
― wk, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 03:35 (9 months ago) Permalink
I like a ton of what I think "lol indie" is, and that is just what I perceive the reason is in relation to jazz and salsa as you mentioned.
― Evan, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 03:40 (9 months ago) Permalink
So hip hop is wine and white dudes with guitars are soda basically right?
― wk, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 03:53 (9 months ago) Permalink
ell no, the analogy was only applying to your comparison to specializing in jazz or salsa.
― Evan, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 03:56 (9 months ago) Permalink
Well*
― Evan, Monday, August 20, 2012 7:50 PM (47 minutes ago)
assume this is satirical snark? cuz otherwise, it's complete bullshit. we get out art what we manage to put in, nutshell = infinite space and all.
the only problem with indie (etc) is its overcelebration by people who claim - either actively or passively - to be knowledgeable generalists interested in everything. this leads to horrors like the "acclaimed music" lists from the late 70s and early-mid 80s which were getting polled a while back. they promote as critical consensus the idea that "smart" white guitar rock is by far the best music in the world. i reject this completely.
i mean, i accept that the talking heads and wire were making music that appealed - and still appeals - quite strongly to critics with a special interest in smartguy guitar pop, but that's where i draw the line.
― contenderizer, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 04:03 (9 months ago) Permalink
Yeah I'm not saying this is my opinion or some kind of truth, but that I fear it is an underlying reason to the way a specialization is treated differently. The idea is addressed in the condescending "lol indie" label.
― Evan, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 04:13 (9 months ago) Permalink
Anyway, talking about this stuff doesn't make any sense to me here. These lists are supposed to be entirely personal, aren't they? It's just about how they affect the list owner it has nothing to do with what albums are the best/most important from 96-11.
― Evan, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 04:17 (9 months ago) Permalink
hmm, i see "lolindie" as reflexive self-denigration of the sort that generally characterizes indie. it's internally rather than externally imposed. the lols are coming from inside the house!
― contenderizer, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 04:20 (9 months ago) Permalink
the only problem with indie (etc) is its overcelebration by people who claim - either actively or passively - to be knowledgeable generalists interested in everything.
Aha you got to the heart of the matter right there. I do consider myself a KGIE. So it bothers me to look back at my favorite music of the past 15 years and wonder why it's so overwhelmingly white and male, especially compared to my favorite artists from previous decades. And I think part of the reason is that I specialized my interests more in that time period. I lost interest in new hip hop and tuned out pop music beyond a few standout singles. But why is that specialization only a problem with "indie"? Is it only because it's such a poorly defined category? I don't really care for pitchfork or the vast majority of the music they cover, but their coverage seems pretty eclectic to me. And yet they get shit for it in a way that would never be applied to a specialist metal or hip hop publication.
― wk, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 04:22 (9 months ago) Permalink
These lists are supposed to be entirely personal, aren't they? It's just about how they affect the list owner it has nothing to do with what albums are the best/most important from 96-11.
― Tim F, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 04:23 (9 months ago) Permalink
But why is that specialization only a problem with "indie"? Is it only because it's such a poorly defined category? I don't really care for pitchfork or the vast majority of the music they cover, but their coverage seems pretty eclectic to me. And yet they get shit for it in a way that would never be applied to a specialist metal or hip hop publication.
Because straight white male rock is the only genre which consistently elevates its self-experience to the level of a universal.
― Tim F, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 04:24 (9 months ago) Permalink
But again, that comes down to a lack of a good definition for the genre, no? Pitchfork like say Spin or Rolling Stone is seen as a generalist publication since "indie" is not really a genre. So the takeaway is that "these are the best albums of the year in all genres". Whereas with a metal magazine it's more clearly constrained so nobody cares.
― wk, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 04:30 (9 months ago) Permalink
The type of people who analyze themselves and their tastes to try to maintain their unique identity would use the term "lol indie" because they're a bit embarrassed about liking something a bit more obvious than an obscure jazz record, right? This is why many more serious, critical music fans are less likely to proudly embrace a specialization in it I think.
― Evan, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 04:33 (9 months ago) Permalink
and I would contest the "straight male" part re: much of indie rock. at least compared to the problem of its whiteness.
― wk, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 04:33 (9 months ago) Permalink
nah, liz phair was right. the "rock" part of it is still guyville, the best efforts of sleater-kinney notwithstanding.
― contenderizer, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 04:48 (9 months ago) Permalink
^ this, though i wouldn't put it quite so bluntly. the elevation seems to reflect and endorse the white male's sense of his own automatic centrality. it's not that there's anything wrong with indie or liking indie or even white guys liking indie, it's that the overcelebration of indie (and i'm using "indie" a contemporary placeholder for a wide swath supposedly "intelligent", white-guy-endorsed semi-pop) by a specific group of people becomes a tiresome and potentially damaging sort of cultural hegemony.
like this magazine owned by an extraordinarily rich white guy and read mostly by white guys hires a bunch of well-educated white guys to claim that music produced by other white guys is for real and for true the best and most important shit in the whole damn world. "it's not that we really planned it that way or anything, but hey, that's just how it happened to work out..." for a long time, this was going on everywhere, in magazine after magazine, to the extent that "mainstream music criticism" became an echo chamber feeding this one cultural point of view (with endless subtle variations) back into itself in an infinite loop. rockism blahdiddy blah. that seems to be somewhat less true today, but only somewhat.
my awareness of all this it doesn't make me any less likely to like what i like or to express that taste in criticism, but it does incline me to be completely upfront about my identity and the limitations of my interests. i cannot say anything about "the best music in the world." i can only tell you what one middle-aged, middle-class straight white guy raised on the beatles and cheap trick happens to like.
― contenderizer, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 04:52 (9 months ago) Permalink
― wk, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 4:30 AM (19 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
This sense of being hard to self-define is in part the same impulse that motivates dog latin to say he doesn't consciously consider himself to be a straight white male.
― Tim F, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 04:53 (9 months ago) Permalink
i.e. when your sub-culture considers itself to be "culture" (or alternatively "counter-culture") in general, it starts to lose its sense of specificity.
― Tim F, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 04:56 (9 months ago) Permalink
also, when your culture refuses to confront the fact that it is a culture, a limited culture, one with a specific composition. indie is overwhelmingly white and mostly educated/middle class, but is loath to just admit this and move on. it seems somehow gauche to insist on it (just as rich people consider it gauche to talk about money, especially in the presence of poor people), but that's never stopped me before...
― contenderizer, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 05:11 (9 months ago) Permalink
^ i guess that's the same thing tim just said, approached from a slightly different direction. pitchfork is a perfect example of this, so it's a natural subject for discussion in this thread. pitchfork started out as an indie site; i.e., a space dedicated to music of particular interest to a specific group of generally middle-class white people - and others with similar interests, of course. it became quite influential from this position, not least because middle-class white people are themselves quite influential within american society.
when it reached a certain size, pitchfork began to investigate and render judgement on other sorts of music, partially out of a natural inclination to grow and expand, and partially in response to criticism of the unacknowledged limitations of its purview. pitcfork, it seems, didn't want to be "the middle-class white music website". it wanted to actually be as universal as it felt.
this is admirable in certain respects, but also tragic. tragic because it seems to represent the triumph of a culture's desperate desire to believe in the myth of its own centrality over the humbling reality of niche specificity. especially tragic because that specificity is the only thing that was ever at all interesting about it.
― contenderizer, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 05:38 (9 months ago) Permalink
Now I feel like defending the indie mentality: I think its curiosity about the world outside its niche is a good thing - one of the best things about it in fact (for indie as much as anything else).
But I don't think the limits of the (typically self-reinforcing) perspectives of this curiosity should pass without consideration.
In particular, the false equivalence it seeks to draw between its treatment of itself and its treatment of stuff outside itself, which can remind me a bit of this Anatole France quote:
The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread.
― Tim F, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 05:57 (9 months ago) Permalink
yeah, agree completely with that (and lol @ anatole france). curiosity about the broader world is always a good thing, and that's the sense in which i think pitchfork's desire to broaden its ballpark is admirable. but it's equally important to be clear and upfront about who you are and were you're coming from. "nowhere and everywhere" isn't a satisfying or honest way of locating this.
― contenderizer, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 06:21 (9 months ago) Permalink
uh, "were" = "where"
i wish i had finished this in time, but at least i set my #1
― kaygee, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 06:31 (9 months ago) Permalink
I don't think it's difficult at all to define aesthetic commonalities between lots of the music Pitchfork covers. It's just that "indie" is a totally meaningless and non-descriptive term. The problem lies in this post-alternative rejection of labels. Electronic music for example has no such problem with categorizing and labeling its subgenres. And I don't for one minute buy the idea that a band like Animal Collective or their fans consider themselves to be "the culture."
indie is overwhelmingly white and mostly educated/middle class, but is loath to just admit this and move on.
What would that "moving on" look like? Pitchfork not covering any music outside of a more narrow definition of "indie"? ILXors not keeping score on the demographics of other ILXors favorite records?
― wk, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 06:46 (9 months ago) Permalink
You're totally overstating indie fans all being middle class. It's honestly not like that in Scotland at least. Sure lots of middle class folks like it, but probably more dont plus I can assure you lots of working class/non university people are into indie.
― Algerian Goalkeeper, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 07:02 (9 months ago) Permalink
― wk, Monday, August 20, 2012 11:46 PM (4 minutes ago)
no, just admitting that their perspective is a perspective - that pitchfork (very loosely) represents the interests and tastes of a specific culture and is closely associated with a specific genre, however difficult that genre may be to clearly define. admission itself is the first step toward moving past.
― contenderizer, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 07:05 (9 months ago) Permalink
― Algerian Goalkeeper, Tuesday, August 21, 2012 12:02 AM (2 minutes ago)
that may be. i'm primarily talking about more-or-less mainstream indie music & culture in america today. as exemplified by pitchfork, "NPR indie", arcade fire, etc.
― contenderizer, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 07:06 (9 months ago) Permalink
would never say "all indie fans are middle class", btw, and i'm not expressing any kind of class hostility (that i know of...)
― contenderizer, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 07:07 (9 months ago) Permalink
In the U.S. almost 70% of high school graduates enroll in college these days, so I'm not sure that indie being "mostly educated" is terribly damning.xp
― wk, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 07:09 (9 months ago) Permalink
How would they do that? I was going to make some tagline up like Pitchfork- the Indie site, but then I googled it and their actual description on google is Pitchfork - The essential guide to independent music and beyond. Is that not fair? They don't go beyond enough? Or they go too far beyond and should stick to "indie"? Or what? I honestly don't get what people want from them. People seem to be saying that "indie" is everything and nothing. That it doesn't deserve to be categorized as it's own distinct genre but that it somehow makes claims toward universality.
― wk, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 07:13 (9 months ago) Permalink
"Pitchfork - Be forewarned: Our Perspective is a Perspective."
― wk, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 07:15 (9 months ago) Permalink
In the U.S. almost 70% of high school graduates enroll in college these days, so I'm not sure that indie being "mostly educated" is terribly damning.
it's not damning at all though. that's what's so bizarre about this whole thing. if you say that something is, for the most part, white and/or middle class, then a lot of people will automatically assume that you must be trying to cast some kind of aspersion. not at all! the american indie culture i'm describing is in no sense shameful, despite the fact that it happens to be overwhelmingly white (and arguably middle class, collegiate, etc). those qualities only become a problem when they aren't acknowledged, when they try to pass themselves off as universal personhood - or, of course, when they're expressed as bigotry.
― contenderizer, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 07:18 (9 months ago) Permalink
But again, I don't even understand what that would look like for indie culture to acknowledge that it's mostly white and middle class. If it's not a problem, why does it have to be acknowledged? Pitchfork - The Essential Guide to Middle Class White Music? How could that possibly be a good thing? I could understand the pitchfork editors discussing the issue within the context of an interview or some kind of op-ed on their site, but as an overall statement of intent? There is no simple categorical solution there like say Decibel - America's Only Monthly Metal Magazine.
― wk, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 07:26 (9 months ago) Permalink
It was never really feasible for Pitchfork to remain an indie enclave specifically because of that natural curiosity a lot of its readers and writers would have had about the world beyond. As stated above, it's crucial for it to be aware of the underlying biases that influence its coverage of other things though.
How to do that in practice is a good question. Perhaps avoiding terms like "best", "definitive" and "classic" in general, and particularly when it comes to canon-building lists. I tend to judge generalist websites, which is ultimately what Pitchfork is aiming for, not by the music that they cover in isolation but the culture that they seem to be trying to foster. A willingness to challenge reader / writer preconceptions and a humility that acknowledges that there's a vast amount of amazing music they're not coming close to covering is just as important.
― Temporarily Famous In The Czech Republic (ShariVari), Tuesday, 21 August 2012 07:40 (9 months ago) Permalink
How would they do that? I was going to make some tagline up like Pitchfork- the Indie site, but then I googled it and their actual description on google is Pitchfork - The essential guide to independent music and beyond. Is that not fair?
yeah, that's perfectly fair. i have no idea whether or not that tagline was always there. for all i know, it was. the phrase "independent music" doesn't appear on their front page, but it's not like any regular reader doesn't know that it's their primary focus.
as i see it, that admirably accurate google tagline notwithstanding, pitchfork has adopted a curious reticence about branding itself as a specialist indie site. rather than explicitly focus on a particular culture from within, it at least seems to present itself as a generically authoritative "top down" voice regarding the state of contemporary music-as-culture. if an album, artist or genre seems important to it, it will provide its readers with an instructional point of view.
this reflects indie culture's interest in music as a whole, but like rolling stone rockism of days gone by, it threatens to organize the entire world as a suburb of itself. coupled with pitchfork's cultural prominence and the unacknowledged demographic makeup of the scene it's primarily aligned with, this becomes troublesome.
tbh, i'm not sure how pitchfork should announce its particular point of view and the inherent limitations that accompany it. i just know that most metal, dance music and hip-hop sites don't make a similar attempt to "cover the world" in an authoritative manner. they're much more up-front (and to my mind honest) about the specific culture and genre that they're organized around.
― contenderizer, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 07:47 (9 months ago) Permalink
Starting to think Pitchfork can't win either way. Either it sticks to reviewing JUST indie rock with guitars (like a mag such as Terrorizer might have a policy of only covering extreme TR00 KVLT metal exclusively), in which case it would firstly have a dwindling remit as independent music diversifies and cherry-picks from electronic music etc, and secondly be seen as militantly SWM. Or it diversifies, accepts that its audience is keen to learn about music away from guitar rock and is then challenged as being condescendingly pious in its coverage. I don't think any of its readers are under any illusion where Pitchfork's roots and readership lies, but the fact they will cover important albums outside the typical indie rock sphere can only be a good thing. And of course attitudes to how the music is covered will be affected by the writers as well as the editors. Pitchfork readers may well come for the indie rock, but unless they're very stubborn they'll stay for the coverage of other styles ultimately seeking out other publications, sites, blogs that specialise in these new interests.
No one's under any perception that life begins and ends with Pitchfork. It's just another mag on the proverbial newsstand. That said, I do understand that, going back to the print media of my youth, Q, NME, Vox, Select did present themselves as generalist publications while focusing primarily on white alternative pop-rock and treating other styles as the exception. The NME is called "New Musical Express", a title denoting generalism, but it is still overwhelmingly rockist with a fairweather supporting bias of white indie trends (haven't read it in a year or two though, so maybe not?). Select was at its best when it wasn't constantly banging on about Britpop. The most interesting sections for me (even as a Britpop-loving teenager) were not the Noel Gallagher interviews, but the clubbing sections and occasional features on a pop, punk or hiphop acts outside of its usual remit. I don't actually remember Select being terribly "look at us we're interviewing the Spice Girls LOL!" about it, which was refreshing compared to a lot of other publications at the time.
Of course, it's worth remembering that musical approaches and attitudes have changed a fair bit since Pitchfork began. R'n'B and dance are assimilating, indie is taking cues from all over the shop, and Pitchfork has a duty not only to reflect the changing attitudes in the music it originally set out to cover, but also the music that is influencing this. Concurrently, Pitchfork also has tremendous influence over indie listeners' tastes, but maybe not so much outside of that readership sphere. I don't believe that a serious hiphop fan would use PF as their prime source of music info, for example.
― Here's that tenner I owe you, asshole (dog latin), Tuesday, 21 August 2012 10:38 (9 months ago) Permalink
Mags where the staff consists of an X-majority (where X is any unchoosable point of division) will always have X-centric lists, however relatively diverse and outward-reaching it might be.
So which comes first? The more diverse bias-neutral list, or the more diverse bias-neutral pool of list makers?
― nashwan, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 11:28 (9 months ago) Permalink
Did anyone have any interesting listmaking methods, and do you think your list was skewed as a result? I basically just pulled all my entries from the albums tab in my Last.fm stats, so if I haven't listened to it since I joined Last.fm (2006), it didn't get on. Seemed more honest that way. I manually ordered them, though.
― B-Boy Bualadh Bos (ecuador_with_a_c), Tuesday, 21 August 2012 11:29 (9 months ago) Permalink
I Would have liked to have gone through my entire collection, built an XLS and then pared things down, but I was at work so mine was largely based on instinct and recall. Not a particularly methodical way to do it.
― Here's that tenner I owe you, asshole (dog latin), Tuesday, 21 August 2012 11:34 (9 months ago) Permalink
they're counting down from tomorrow. I just realised a lot of albums I entered didn't actually show up on my list for some reason, so no Dopethrone for example. I'm kind of pissed off about that.
― Here's that tenner I owe you, asshole (dog latin), Tuesday, 21 August 2012 11:37 (9 months ago) Permalink
This sense of being hard to self-define is in part the same impulse that motivates dog latin to say he doesn't consciously consider himself to be a straight white male.i.e. when your sub-culture considers itself to be "culture" (or alternatively "counter-culture") in general, it starts to lose its sense of specificity.― Tim F, Tuesday, August 21, 2012 4:56 AM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― Tim F, Tuesday, August 21, 2012 4:56 AM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
^^^^Truth Bomb, IMO
― my god it's full of straw (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Tuesday, 21 August 2012 13:19 (9 months ago) Permalink
Yeah, that's a key lesson that people need to learn from this debate. Culture and society do a spectacularly good job of making the arbitrary and enforced appear to be absolutely natural and normal. It's myth-making.
― Sick Mouthy (Scik Mouthy), Tuesday, 21 August 2012 13:42 (9 months ago) Permalink
eg truthiness, something Dog Latin is real good at
― coal, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 13:57 (9 months ago) Permalink
delete ilx
― thomp, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 13:58 (9 months ago) Permalink
This sense of being hard to self-define is in part the same impulse that motivates dog latin to say he doesn't consciously consider himself to be a straight white male.i.e. when your sub-culture considers itself to be "culture" (or alternatively "counter-culture") in general, it starts to lose its sense of specificity.― Tim F, Tuesday, August 21, 2012 4:56 AM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink^^^^Truth Bomb, IMO― my god it's full of straw (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Tuesday, 21 August 2012 14:19 (47 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post PermalinkYeah, that's a key lesson that people need to learn from this debate. Culture and society do a spectacularly good job of making the arbitrary and enforced appear to be absolutely natural and normal. It's myth-making.― Sick Mouthy (Scik Mouthy), Tuesday, 21 August 2012 14:42 (24 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― my god it's full of straw (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Tuesday, 21 August 2012 14:19 (47 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― Sick Mouthy (Scik Mouthy), Tuesday, 21 August 2012 14:42 (24 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
Cool cool, I completely understand this. I even alluded to this (the privilege of being able to consider myself in this way) when I originally said I don't generally go around defining myself in terms of gender or race. I'd prefer it if people stopped chewing my leg over it as it's greatly upsetting, as someone who is actively against racism and sexism, to be accused of prejudice when maybe I just don't understand a deeper issue, or wish to present examples in order to understand them better. Thanks.
― Here's that tenner I owe you, asshole (dog latin), Tuesday, 21 August 2012 14:24 (9 months ago) Permalink
The problem I have with this claim re:pitchfork is where is that drive toward universality actually coming from? The readers? The staff? As a response to criticism? Pitchfork could easily strengthen its sense of specificity by stopping coverage of chart pop, hip hop, dance music, metal, and any other genre that already gets extensive coverage and attention elsewhere. But that would go against everything people are asking for wouldn't it?
― wk, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 14:37 (9 months ago) Permalink
I'd prefer it if people stopped chewing my leg over it as it's greatly upsetting, as someone who is actively against racism and sexism, to be accused of prejudice when maybe I just don't understand a deeper issue
You're never going to get better at understanding a deeper issue if no one's allowed to point out when your perspective is coming from a place of unconscious racism/sexism. If you want to be "actively against" those things then you have to be committed to letting people call you out when you're wrong. And there are worse things in the world than being called out on racism and sexism. Such as being on the receiving end of racism and sexism, no matter how much it may be the result of "misunderstanding".
― Melissa W, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 14:40 (9 months ago) Permalink
xposts above.
don't blame pitchfork.
start your own every-but-pitchfork site, and cover all the music you think should be covered.
just don't complain when you don't take over the world doing it.
― nicky lo-fi, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 14:41 (9 months ago) Permalink
top selling US artists of 2011:
1. Adele 6,744,000 2. Justin Bieber 3,393,000 3. Michael Buble 2,985,000 4. Lady Gaga 2,828,000 5. Lil' Wayne 2,651,000 6. Lady Antebellum 2,180,000 7. Glee Cast 2,104,000 8. Jason Aldean 1,884,000 9. Taylor Swift 1,847,00010. Drake 1,591,000
Read more: Top 10 Selling Musical Artists, 2011 — Infoplease.com http://www.infoplease.com/entertainment/music/top-ten-musical-artists-2011.html#ixzz24BxlNQBW
― nicky lo-fi, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 14:43 (9 months ago) Permalink
Perhaps avoiding terms like "best", "definitive" and "classic" in general, and particularly when it comes to canon-building lists
I don't read Pitchfork much at all but why is it worse for Pitchfork to do this than for e.g. The Wire to do this?
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Tuesday, 21 August 2012 14:44 (9 months ago) Permalink
You're never going to get better at understanding a deeper issue if no one's allowed to point out when your perspective is coming from a place of unconscious racism/sexism. If you want to be "actively against" those things then you have to be committed to letting people call you out when you're wrong. And there are worse things in the world than being called out on racism and sexism. Such as being on the receiving end of racism and sexism, no matter how much it may be the result of "misunderstanding".― Melissa W, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 15:40 (6 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― Melissa W, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 15:40 (6 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
I fail to see how this is wrong: "Despite being one, I don't necessarily identify myself on a day-to-day basis as a "straight white male". You could say that's because I see myself as a cultural 'norm' and therefore don't have to, which I understand" - isn't that exactly what everyone's been telling me anyway?
― Here's that tenner I owe you, asshole (dog latin), Tuesday, 21 August 2012 14:50 (9 months ago) Permalink
I'm semi-regularly petrified that I've offended WCC inadvertently by saying something laden with truthiness or suchlike. And it's a horrible feeling being called out like that, like being told off when you're a kid for something you didn't quite realise was wrong until its pointed out. But I'm glad that WCC does it, because it makes me think, and reevaluate, and hopefully not do it again.
― Sick Mouthy (Scik Mouthy), Tuesday, 21 August 2012 14:51 (9 months ago) Permalink
xps Commercially, female artists seem to be doing ok (though I guess there's a question about how the money for pop albums splits across artists/producers/writers etc.). I think the debate here is more about bias in the critical ecosystem and maybe also listener/industry/critical bias in certain genres.
(Cool thread, though it's pretty hard to keep up)
― Cong rat ululations (seandalai), Tuesday, 21 August 2012 14:51 (9 months ago) Permalink
so fucked that a #1 artist is selling roughly twice as many as a #2 artist. also RIP bands (because with that dwindles the prospect of there being more successful bands or more-than-one acts that aren't all or mostly SWM).
― nashwan, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 14:52 (9 months ago) Permalink
Man, I wish I was half as terrifying as you lads seems to think I am!
(Then maybe the boss's son would listen to me at work and not make the stupid cockups he does.)
― my god it's full of straw (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Tuesday, 21 August 2012 14:53 (9 months ago) Permalink
It's not necessarily worse but the impact is probably more significant given the scale of Pitchfork's influence on critical discourse and the fuzzy boundary of its area of professed expertise.
― Temporarily Famous In The Czech Republic (ShariVari), Tuesday, 21 August 2012 15:12 (9 months ago) Permalink
Lists called "The Most Important Album Covers Of The Last Three Years" are extremely grating, but surely this is a necessary evil of headline journalism - I especially hate seeing it on the cover of the NME - so self important. Maybe it would be more productive for me to think of Pitchfork as a US analogue of the NME, a publication which is infinitely more myopic in its music coverage.
― Here's that tenner I owe you, asshole (dog latin), Tuesday, 21 August 2012 15:19 (9 months ago) Permalink
I'm semi-regularly petrified that I've offended WCC inadvertently by saying something laden with truthiness or suchlike. And it's a horrible feeling being called out like that, like being told off when you're a kid for something you didn't quite realise was wrong until its pointed out. But I'm glad that WCC does it, because it makes me think, and reevaluate, and hopefully not do it again.― Sick Mouthy (Scik Mouthy), Tuesday, 21 August 2012 15:51 (34 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― Sick Mouthy (Scik Mouthy), Tuesday, 21 August 2012 15:51 (34 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
This ^ I'll be the first to admit a lot of my posts can come across as naive or misguided, and I appreciate being explained what is wrong about them. But there is a difference between this and being on the receiving end of a hellfire sermon about what a terrible human being I apparently am. It's not about "Aw you hurt my feewings" (although it does hurt), it's that shouting at someone and accusing them of being a typical example of an oppressive cultural hegemony is hugely counter-productive and not an effective way to get a POV across. I've been on this board a very long time and yet I don't know anything more about you guys than you do about me. I hope something people do know though is that I'm not here to fight or troll and yeah, I'll play devil's advocate a fair bit and ask some dumb questions, maybe use hypothetical examples more than I ought to for the sake of argument. But this kind of debate is difficult enough for someone such as myself to participate in as I am A: perhaps not as au fait with the intricacies of the wider debate as I'd like to be, and B: a SWM myself and therefore a very easy critical target. Being chased away from such a debate - a debate which I realise involves issues that people feel extremely strongly about - and told "You deserve everything you get as yours is the stereotypical opinion of the oppressor" isn't miles away from WCC's experience of being chased away from genre scenes "You're a girl, you wouldn't understand" etc... Hope this makes at least some sense. It's not my intention to hurt people's feelings or agitate sore spots.
― Here's that tenner I owe you, asshole (dog latin), Tuesday, 21 August 2012 16:06 (9 months ago) Permalink
Please. Stop. Projecting.
― my god it's full of straw (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Tuesday, 21 August 2012 16:08 (9 months ago) Permalink
The closest anyone has come on this thread, at all, to giving anyone a "hellfire sermon" was me joking - hey, maybe it didn't come across as a joke - that you had said women don't do anger, and I made a joke that that comment made me so angry I wanted my browser to assault you. I apologise if you did not read that as the humourous irony it was intended.
But apart from that, you are projecting something that no one on this thread has been doing.
You have said some pretty dumb things ITT. And people have been *astonishingly* gentle with you. But, you know, casting yourself as some kind of victim here is the kind of thing that really gets people's backs up. Stop being so defensive and read what people have actually said, and you might learn something.
― my god it's full of straw (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Tuesday, 21 August 2012 16:13 (9 months ago) Permalink
I'm sorry you feel so persecuted for being a white man. :( The sheer nerve of some people to react to hurtful things you said when you didn't intend for them to be hurtful! x-post
― Melissa W, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 16:15 (9 months ago) Permalink
Also, drawing straight comparisons between "omg, women are being contemptuous of my opinions in this thread!" and "men in this forum are detailing their graphic rape fantasies about me every time I post" is really quite seriously jaw-dropping.
― my god it's full of straw (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Tuesday, 21 August 2012 16:18 (9 months ago) Permalink
I kind of want to re-engage with this thread but just to talk about how much I love the albums I put on my list
― Lil Swayne of Pie (DJP), Tuesday, 21 August 2012 16:20 (9 months ago) Permalink
also to mope that I didn't remember to put Barking on it
― Lil Swayne of Pie (DJP), Tuesday, 21 August 2012 16:21 (9 months ago) Permalink
You put at least one Lamb record on your list DJP so all is forgiven.
― EZ Snappin, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 16:23 (9 months ago) Permalink
DJP please make a Spotify list of your nominations?
(I made a YouTube playlist of my top 5 for a date earlier this week when they hadn't heard anything I was waxing excited about.)
― my god it's full of straw (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Tuesday, 21 August 2012 16:26 (9 months ago) Permalink
I have THREE Lamb albums on my list! Love them to bits
― Lil Swayne of Pie (DJP), Tuesday, 21 August 2012 16:27 (9 months ago) Permalink
I decided to only go with one album per artist, or I'd have had more than one. Of course, I went with one (What Sound you didn't choose!
― EZ Snappin, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 16:31 (9 months ago) Permalink
Pitchfork could easily strengthen its sense of specificity by stopping coverage of chart pop, hip hop, dance music, metal, and any other genre that already gets extensive coverage and attention elsewhere. But that would go against everything people are asking for wouldn't it?
― wk, Tuesday, August 21, 2012 7:37 AM (1 hour ago)
afaic, pitchfork has the right to cover whatever they want. the more the better. i'd just like to see critics and critical organs be straightforward about where they're coming from & who they are. for pitchfork, it'd be nice to have links from individual reviews to critic bios, photos (maybe, if people wanted to be seen?) and lists of their other writings on the site. plus maybe a bit more upfront honesty about the fact that pitchfork is still basically an indie site and the ways in which that orientation frames their overall editorial/critical philosophy. i don't think the wire is at all reticent about the fact that they're primarily interested in experimental & avant-garde stuff. like the pitchfork of old, the specificity of their interest is what makes the wire distinct and useful.
― contenderizer, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 16:32 (9 months ago) Permalink
fwiw, dog latin, i think you're doing fine here. you've said some stuff i disagree with, but you seem overall to have been open-minded and to have engaged with the debate in a fair and honest fashion. that's all that can reasonably be asked of anyone, afaic. of course, i can't speak to whatever offense you may have given anyone else...
― contenderizer, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 16:38 (9 months ago) Permalink
i agree
― Algerian Goalkeeper, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 16:44 (9 months ago) Permalink
Aw, it's so cute, you guys giving him manpointz when he so clearly wanted the Feminist Cookie.
― my god it's full of straw (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Tuesday, 21 August 2012 16:49 (9 months ago) Permalink
WCC is seriously one of the best posters on ILX right now.
― Fareed Zaireeka (Whiney G. Weingarten), Tuesday, 21 August 2012 16:50 (9 months ago) Permalink
"We, the white men, were so totally not ~offended~!"
Because news flash: no one on this thread was ever actually offended. Dude said some bullshit, some people with actual experience took the time to correct those fallacies and now he's crying victim coz he done got told. Yay, white men! Let's go make some lists!
― my god it's full of straw (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Tuesday, 21 August 2012 16:53 (9 months ago) Permalink
http://open.spotify.com/user/djperry1973/playlist/43Zk2ca6q9IBEFPoIDV8xm
Here's my ballot as a Spotify playlist. There are some weird omissions due to some things not being online in the US, like the Prodigy singles comp, Music Has A Right To Children, the Moloko albums and the first two Basement Jaxx albums, and things that just wouldn't be on Spotify like my brother's hip-hop group's album from 2003.
incredibly ironic xpost
― Lil Swayne of Pie (DJP), Tuesday, 21 August 2012 16:54 (9 months ago) Permalink
gonna go and play my ballot on shuffle now, it's enough music for three days
I think it's a (nice, liberal, open-minded) SWM instinct, when confronted with their SWMness by people who feel victimised by the dominance of SWMs and SWM culture, to go "hey, I feel victimised too; we're kind of alike!" which I can understand, and probably do myself (in fact I absolutely know I do, at least emotionally, but I'm trying to CBT it out of myself almost), but which, when you stand back and think about it, is actually almost like the epitome of SWM privilege: it's a privilege of SWMs not to think of themselves as SWMs, but rather to think of themselves as "normal", which, even if you're not assuming or insinuating that everyone else is "abnormal", is probably going to make them infer that you are.
Fwiw I don't thing you've been out of order on this thread, DL, a little gauche at points for sure, and I don't think you've been victimised at all either. Take a breath, and keep on.
― Sick Mouthy (Scik Mouthy), Tuesday, 21 August 2012 16:55 (9 months ago) Permalink
maybe a bit more upfront honesty about the fact that pitchfork is still basically an indie site and the ways in which that orientation frames their overall editorial/critical philosophy
how much more upfront can PF be? If you visit the site, its orientation is obvious.
― a regina spektor is haunting europe (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 21 August 2012 16:57 (9 months ago) Permalink
WCC is seriously one of the best posters on ILX right now
― Sick Mouthy (Scik Mouthy), Tuesday, 21 August 2012 16:57 (9 months ago) Permalink
nicks on fire today with otmness
― Algerian Goalkeeper, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 17:00 (9 months ago) Permalink
Somehow I must have missed Third when I was making my list. Such a huge omission.
― the same dope water as you (how's life), Tuesday, 21 August 2012 17:04 (9 months ago) Permalink
I didn't make a list. So no such problems here. Would be too hard to decide plus I'd just get called a rockist or something.
― Algerian Goalkeeper, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 17:08 (9 months ago) Permalink
Any of my top ten could have been my #1 album on any given day, except for when I REALLY started asking myself "how does this album compare to the others?" and shuffling them around, they ended up in this order with Third clearly on top. (Join The Dots is clearly cheating but I don't care, and prior to 2007 In Sides would have easily been my #1; in fact, I had to wrestle with whether to put that or New Amerykah 1 in at #3, probably the hardest decision I made in the list)
sad that I missed Barking and that the M.I.A. and Santigold mixtapes ended up sliding off the bottom along with Spiritualized
― Lil Swayne of Pie (DJP), Tuesday, 21 August 2012 17:08 (9 months ago) Permalink
If you look at the Wikipedia page for truthiness it actually mentions the phrase 'dog latin' (not the person obv)
― coal, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 17:10 (9 months ago) Permalink
― a regina spektor is haunting europe (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, August 21, 2012 9:57 AM (2 minutes ago)
yes and no. pitchfork doesn't deny anything, but nor does it clarify much. what is "indie" exactly? what does it mean to pitchfork that it's associated with this music? what is its place in the world? what are it's limitations (i.e., what isn't it)? most music publications wrestle with these sorts of identity-defining questions every once in a while.
i see pitchfork as being an "indie site" in much the same way that the rolling stone of the 80s and 90s was a "rock magazine" - as though "indie" were an infinitely extensible and plastic umbrella under which the whole world could be organized and evaluated. open-minded, explorative curiosity is always a good thing, but i have real problems with the pervasive dominance of one specific and fairly narrow critical viewpoint - again as negatively exemplified in those 70s/80s "acclaimed music" lists we were polling a while back.
i personally feel that the overwhelming ubiquity of these crushingly homogeneous (and unsurprisingly white-guy centric) views is, at least in part, the product of niche specificity passing itself off as universally knowledgeable generalism. it's the hyper-empowered will-to-canon that bothers me. you can see it being written in the here and now, the prime placement that will be granted artists like neutral milk hotel, the strokes, the black keys, LCD soundsystem, spoon and the arcade fire in a thousand "acclaimed music" lists yet to be.
looking at the top 20 2010 pazz and jop album finishers, i see 13 indie acts (including some crossover stuff), intermixed with a few "standout" rap and electronic sort-of-dance-pop albums of precisely the sort that pitchfork champions. and one country record. 15 of the 20 were made primarily by men. it's fine, people are gonna like whatever they want to like, but doesn't the constant critical celebration of this one rather narrow band of pop become rather stultifying after a while?
― contenderizer, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 17:50 (9 months ago) Permalink
speaking of things that become rather stultifying after a while
― Jandek at the Disco (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Tuesday, 21 August 2012 17:52 (9 months ago) Permalink
^ the strongest possible counter to this that i can think of is the argument that the people who most want to read and hear music reviews are primarily attracted to what i'll loosely call "pitchfork music": ostensibly intelligent and forward-thinking pop that reflect's a certain culture's tastes and values. and the people who most want to write music criticism share the same basic bent. so there's nothing at all surprising about the fact that the tastes of this one rather narrow cultural group so completely dominate pop criticism as a whole.
i'd probably accept that argument, but no one's really making it.
― contenderizer, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 17:54 (9 months ago) Permalink
― Jandek at the Disco (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Tuesday, August 21, 2012 10:52 AM
okay, i'll quit. i get caught up in these discussions and keep going as long as others seem interested (or engaged, anyway), but i should know by now that a little goes a long way.
― contenderizer, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 17:56 (9 months ago) Permalink
a little late to the game. didn't see this thread until now.unfortunately forgot to add the mollusk before the end date but other than that I stand by this list
http://peopleslist.pitchfork.com/list/7d38e3d1/
― gman59, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 18:53 (9 months ago) Permalink
had a brief moment of panic where i thought "adding the mollusk" was some special thing i was supposed to do in order to officially submit my ballot that i didn't know about
― some dude, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 18:55 (9 months ago) Permalink
adding the mollusk is still illegal in 38 states iirc
― Lil Swayne of Pie (DJP), Tuesday, 21 August 2012 18:56 (9 months ago) Permalink
lol naw, i completely forgot about it until now. the ween album.
― gman59, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 18:58 (9 months ago) Permalink
From my more or less arbitrary #1, Getatchew Mekuria & The Ex - Moa Anbessa. Post-punk Ethiopian jazz:
― contenderizer, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 19:03 (9 months ago) Permalink
^ meant to post that stuff to the other thread, but what's done is done
Actually, that was top of my list to check out, so I'm glad you posted those here.
― emil.y, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 19:04 (9 months ago) Permalink
also, i included The Holy Bible but pretty much only because they had it in their database. doesn't fit the 96-2011 thing but, i imagine its for the bonus reissue stuff
― gman59, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 19:05 (9 months ago) Permalink
ha when i saw the ex i bought one of the cassettes of that record they made for when they toured ethiopia
― thomp, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 19:15 (9 months ago) Permalink
for pitchfork, it'd be nice to have links from individual reviews to critic bios, photos (maybe, if people wanted to be seen?) and lists of their other writings on the site.
― contenderizer, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 16:32 (3 hours ago) Permalink
Or to make it easier they could just put personals-style abbreviations next to the byline. Ryan Schreiber (SWM). Dominique Leone (F). etc
― wk, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 20:00 (9 months ago) Permalink
sure
― contenderizer, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 20:03 (9 months ago) Permalink
& lol @ dom (F), the joke that keeps on giving :)
Selfishly, may I ask for a few thoughts on my list beyond how white I am? Just craving a little feedback on it.
― Evan, Wednesday, 22 August 2012 03:08 (9 months ago) Permalink
Oh I noticed you like that Real Estate record, I like that record
― nedless summer (Ówen P.), Wednesday, 22 August 2012 03:17 (9 months ago) Permalink
And I guessed when I looked at it that you were Canadian
― nedless summer (Ówen P.), Wednesday, 22 August 2012 03:18 (9 months ago) Permalink
Interesting! Why is that? I'm from New Jersey.
― Evan, Wednesday, 22 August 2012 03:20 (9 months ago) Permalink
Evan, your list kicks ass. I'm not just saying that. Maximum riffage.
― windjamm voyager (blank), Wednesday, 22 August 2012 03:29 (9 months ago) Permalink
It seems very pre-"pfork-indie", when guitars crunched and snares shuddered
― windjamm voyager (blank), Wednesday, 22 August 2012 03:30 (9 months ago) Permalink
You said Shocking Pinks and I read Shearing Pinx and then I couldn't shake the feelingPlus: Plants And Animals
― nedless summer (Ówen P.), Wednesday, 22 August 2012 03:33 (9 months ago) Permalink
Thanks blank! Wasn't asking for that, but it was nice to hear. My favorite era of music ended just before 1996 and I'm very much into crunching guitars
― Evan, Wednesday, 22 August 2012 03:39 (9 months ago) Permalink
That Plants and Animals record is so great, it's too bad they weren't ...something... enough to get as popular as other Canadians. Their next record didn't help, though it wasn't necessarily bad.
― Evan, Wednesday, 22 August 2012 03:41 (9 months ago) Permalink
Want to big up contenderizer, I found yr thoughts on p4k interesting and engaging!
Also, totally pro the idea to 'have links from individual reviews to critic bios, photos (maybe, if people wanted to be seen?) and lists of their other writings on the site.'
If only b/c I like certain contributors to p4k a whole lot and it would be nice if I can just scroll down a page of links to their contributions. Would also re-enforce the idea that the site isn't some monolith of single opinion (which is what, like, The Economist tries to suggest), but an amalgamation of viewpoints.
― Mercer Finn, Wednesday, 22 August 2012 03:59 (9 months ago) Permalink
Here's my list (not submitted). The least it can be said for it is that it hasn't lots of albums that aren't going to be on other lists, but that's probably also the most that can be said for it. Ranking is a bit bogus, starting with the album in second place, but there is some rough difference between top third, middle third, and bottom third.
1. Shiina Ringo – Karuki Zamen Kuri no Hana2. Kate Bush – Aerial3. Tokyo Jihen – Adult4. Michael Stuart – Back to da Barrio5. Matthew Shipp – Equilibrium6. John Fahey – Red Cross7. e.s.t. – Leucocyte8. Boris – Smile9. Boy Better Know – Tropical 210. Kayhan Kalhor/Mohammad Reza Shajarian – Night Silence Desert11. Janelle Monae – The ArchAndroid12. Marina & the Diamonds – Family Jewels13. Miguel “Anga” Diaz – Echu Mingua14. Ayelet Rose Gottlieb – Mayim Rabim15. Miranda Lambert – Crazy Ex-Girlfriend16. Mohamed Abdo – Kuwait 200117. Daddy Yankee – Mundial18. Flying Lotus – Cosmogramma19. Lansing-Dreiden – Incomplete Triangle20. Shiina Ringo – Shouso Strip21. Cooper-Moore & Assif Tsahar – America22. Khaled Abdul Rahman – Khalediat 201023. Boredoms – Rebore 024. Maria Rita – Segundo25. Bannakumbi – El Nuevo Dia26. Sunny Jain Collective – Avaaz27. Lansing-Dreiden – Dividing Island28. Kate Bush – 50 Words for Snow29. Company of Thieves – Running from a Gamble30. Hossein Alizadeh – Ney Nava Plus Avay-E Mehr Nowruz & Savaran-E Dasht31. Yousef Shamoun – Taneh wu Raneh32. Marit Larsen – Under the Surface33. Ned Rothenberg – Inner Diaspora34. Boris – Feedbacker35. Tokyo Jihen – Kyōiku36. Taylor Swift – Fearless37. Derek Bailey – Ballads38. Maria Rita – Elo39. Boris – Rainbow40. Shiina Ringo – Muzai Moratorium41. Nejo & Dalmata – Broke & Famous42. Company of Thieves – Ordinary Riches43. Rahim Al Haj – When the Soul Is Settled44. Abdelli – New Moon45. Jon Hassell – Maarifa Sreet46. Janet Feder & Fred Frith – Ironic Universe47. Kimbra – Vows48. Cadaver Exquisito – En Vivo Desde La Terrraza del Ateneo49. Cinematic Orchestra – Motion50. Erik Friedlander – Volac: Book Of Angels Vol. 851. Matthew Shipp – One52. Grupo Cimarron – Si Soy Llenaro53. Dave Fox – Dedication Suite
― an infusion of catharsis (_Rudipherous_), Wednesday, 22 August 2012 04:01 (9 months ago) Permalink
It should be stressed that this problem is by no means unique to Pitchfork - the same "will to canon" feel is evident in the writing on sites like FACT (which swaps a US indie-rock center for a UK dance center) or The Quietus (which strikes me as a Pitchfork/FACT/The Wire cross) as well as your more typical organs like Rolling Stone, Spin and indeed The Wire. All of these are basically different slants on a SWM perspective, and all have a rather fuzzy editorial remit.
I don't think any of these particularly need to change their approach but it's worth acknowleging the limitations of that approach if only so as to recognise what kind of perspectives (and obv in particular written perspectives) outside of that worldview are worth locating and supporting.
― Tim F, Wednesday, 22 August 2012 04:14 (9 months ago) Permalink
interesting list, rudipherous. not familiar w much of anything on it, but love the kate bush and boris stuff. went for attention please as my state-allotted single boris pick, but it could just as easily have been smile, rainbow, feedbacker or flood.
enjoyed reading your list, too, evan. you remind me that i criminally neglected my beloved guitar romantic and, dang, for some reason i thought dusk at cubist castle came out in '95! crud. anyway, cool to see mention of giant sand, polvo, bedhead, etc. early 90s nostalgia right here. would have voted for what fun life was had it come out a few years later...
― contenderizer, Wednesday, 22 August 2012 04:17 (9 months ago) Permalink
this list is going to be super embarrassing for everyone involved i think
― Lamp, Wednesday, 22 August 2012 04:17 (9 months ago) Permalink
not familiar with most of what's on your list rudipherous, but good to see some love for 'rebore vol. 0' - it should have been in my top 20 and i prefer it to 'vision creation newsun' by some margin.
― rusty_allen, Wednesday, 22 August 2012 04:24 (9 months ago) Permalink
― contenderizer, Wednesday, August 22, 2012 12:17 AM (17 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
Thanks! I had to remind myself when What Fun Life Was came out because that album is so fantastic. Though Transaction de Novo is special to me since it was the gateway for me to their patient sound.90s nostalgia is a common thread for me.It would be fun to try to make a list consisting of the 15 years prior, but would be much much harder for me.
― Evan, Wednesday, 22 August 2012 04:42 (9 months ago) Permalink
Just looked at your list too, I think that Grouper album would have made it if I had spent enough time with it. All the attempts I've made I just wasn't focused enough to sit all the way through. "Heavy Water/I'd Rather Be Sleeping" on the other hand is one the most incredibly beautiful tracks ever.
Also from your list I was reminded to seek out the Sleep and Jack Rose records. Love that James Blackshaw album too!
― Evan, Wednesday, 22 August 2012 04:50 (9 months ago) Permalink
Thanks for the comments. Incidentally, Karuki Zamen Kuri No Hana TV ads.
― an infusion of catharsis (_Rudipherous_), Wednesday, 22 August 2012 05:07 (9 months ago) Permalink
thanks, y'all. my list would be a hell of a lot different if i'd had more than a couple hours to think about it. regret about half of it now :/
― contenderizer, Wednesday, 22 August 2012 05:08 (9 months ago) Permalink
Shiina Ringo – Karuki Zamen Kuri no Hana
well i definitely meant to have this on my list but it felt sort of like i'd be the only one voting for it? dammit who knows why i took it off
― emo canon in twee major (BradNelson), Wednesday, 22 August 2012 05:17 (9 months ago) Permalink
Karuki Zamen Kuri No Hana would have been on my list had i submitted it in time. FWIW:
1. Mylene Farmer - Innamoramento2. Faye Wong - Fable3. Oskar - Beg Pa Ostriyu Nozha4. Lee Jung Hyun - I <3 Natural (Vol. 4)5. Afghan Whigs - Black Love6. V.I.A Gra - Popitka No. 57. Tatu - 200 km/h Pa Vostrechnoi8. Puffy - Spike9. Allison Moorer - The Hardest Part10. Magnetic Fields - 69 Love Songs11. Brodka - Granda12. Ruslana - Diki Tantsi13. Marit Bergman - Baby Dry Your Eye14. Taylor Swift - Fearless15. Shiina Ringo - Karuki Zamen Kuri No Hana16. Zdob Si Zdub - Agroromantica17. Fabrika - Dyevushki Fabrichnie18. The Ark - In Lust We Trust19. Bjork - Homogenic20. Alcazar - Alcazarized21. Girls Aloud - What Will The Neighbours Say?22. Ayumi Hamasaki - LOVEppears23. Outkast - Stankonia24. TLC - Fanmail25. Air - Moon Safari26. E-40 - Revenue Retrievin' Day Shift / Night Shift27. Einsturzende Neubauten - Ende Neu28. Mazzy Star - Among My Swan29. Screaming Trees - Dust30. Broadcast - Work And Non-Work31. Tove Styrke - Tove Styrke32. Kapela Ze Wsi Warszawa - Wiosna Ludu33. Olivia Tremor Control - Dusk At Cubist Castle34. Los Tigres del Norte - Pacto de Sangre35. Electrik Red - How To Be A Lady vol.136. Katya Chilly - Ya Molodaya37. Felix Da Housecat - Kittenz And Thee Glitz38. A*Teens - Teen Spirit39. Shakira - Laundry Service40. Waka Flocka Flame - Flockaveli41. Destiny's Child - The Writing's On The Wall42. Carla Bruni - Quelqu'un m'a Dit43. Adult. - Resuscitation44. Miranda - Es Mentira45. Utada Hikaru - Exodus46. Paola & Chiara - Giornata Storica47. Vitalic - OK Cowboy48. New Kingdom - Paradise Don't Come Cheap49. The Boredoms - Vision Creation Newsun50. Sleater-Kinney - Dig Me Out
― Temporarily Famous In The Czech Republic (ShariVari), Wednesday, 22 August 2012 07:29 (9 months ago) Permalink
isn't their entire thing that it IS a monolith hivemind of branded opinion?
― lex pretend, Wednesday, 22 August 2012 07:59 (9 months ago) Permalink
have u ever actually looked at pfork lex
― thomp, Wednesday, 22 August 2012 08:01 (9 months ago) Permalink
that's a crazy-ass list, SV. in a good way, i think...
― contenderizer, Wednesday, 22 August 2012 08:05 (9 months ago) Permalink
I do like the idea of Press, especially review-type Press, which treats its reviewers as individuals. And I love that thing that many websites do, where you can click on the writer's name and see what other stuff they have written, in order to just kind of assess their viewpoint, what their angle is. In the case of something like Pitchfork, it would help, when deciding whether to pay attention to the review, to see what other artists/music they had rated highly.
I wrote for a UK magazine for a while where we all had to conform to the house style, where you were not allowed to use "I" or "me" and if mentioning yourself in the review, you had to refer to yourself as "Magazine X" - I couldn't do it. (I think a big part of that was not really being that into the magazine's special music interest area, even though they approached me to write for them.)
I do have mixed feelings, though about turning it into some kind of social media thing, where some people will end up judging the writing/tastes based on their membership of certain groups (good or bad, stronger or weaker) which is not necessarily a good thing. Sometimes it feels like representation, sometimes it feels like exoticism or tokenism. I don't know how to counter that, though.
― my god it's full of straw (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Wednesday, 22 August 2012 08:33 (9 months ago) Permalink
isn't their entire thing that it IS a monolith hivemind of branded opinion?― lex pretend, Wednesday, 22 August 2012 07:59 (26 minutes ago) Permalink
― lex pretend, Wednesday, 22 August 2012 07:59 (26 minutes ago) Permalink
I do like the idea of Press, especially review-type Press, which treats its reviewers as individuals. And I love that thing that many websites do, where you can click on the writer's name and see what other stuff they have written, in order to just kind of assess their viewpoint, what their angle is. In the case of something like Pitchfork, it would help, when deciding whether to pay attention to the review, to see what other artists/music they had rated highly.― my god it's full of straw (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Wednesday, 22 August 2012 09:33 (23 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― my god it's full of straw (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Wednesday, 22 August 2012 09:33 (23 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
I actually can't believe PF don't link to "other reviews by this writer". I know Stylus used to do it, and the Quietus do it now as well as probably a whole load of websites. It's a function I use very often, not just because I agree with a writer's views and tastes but also because I like their writing style. So why not PF? I'm sure this would be the most productive way for them to get away from the kind of negative assumptions levelled at them by the likes of the Lex. Because really, I honestly believe that no matter the editorial stance, the majority of music websites and their views are affected by their writers and it is kind of unfair to complain about a site's viewpoints in such wide generalist terms. Attitudes and tastes will vary from writer to writer, so if PF wants to get away from being seen as a totem of rockism it's high time they started showcasing their writers as individuals rather than pawns.
I'm reminded of the video game magazines of my youth - Mean Machines etc - which always included an editorial section at the beginning, often humorously or self-deprecatingly talking about the team of writers (Julian 'Jaz' Rignall', Radion Automatic etc), their current interests, some daft thing they did in the office that day. You quickly got to know a bit about the person whose writing you were reading. And throughout the magazine you KNEW who was doing the talking. Not only this, but you felt included as a reader - something that was important to young gamers at the time I think. Also - up to two or three people contributing to a game review (sometimes with conflicting views). This was standard for the computer mag format in the early nineties, but it's something that just doesn't exist in mainstream music writing.
― Here's that tenner I owe you, asshole (dog latin), Wednesday, 22 August 2012 09:24 (9 months ago) Permalink
I guess this boils down to whether one believes that music criticism ought to be objective or subjective though.
― Here's that tenner I owe you, asshole (dog latin), Wednesday, 22 August 2012 09:26 (9 months ago) Permalink
who the hell believes music criticism is objective?!
the idea of following what "a publication" thinks rather than individual writers (or non-writers) is completely alien to me. even when i was like 15 i had a very firm idea of which writers i trusted and which writers i thought were morons.
― lex pretend, Wednesday, 22 August 2012 09:44 (9 months ago) Permalink
NME's authority waned at about the point it went from being a cacophony of different voices with different opinions to having a set party line with one or two token dissenters. The chance of backing the wrong horse is too high but hey Pitchfork's being doing that for years.
― Matt DC, Wednesday, 22 August 2012 09:50 (9 months ago) Permalink
Different and conflicting opinions I should say.
― Matt DC, Wednesday, 22 August 2012 09:51 (9 months ago) Permalink
Forgive me but I don't understand how
the idea of following what "a publication" thinks rather than individual writers (or non-writers) is completely alien to me.
and
correlate.
― Here's that tenner I owe you, asshole (dog latin), Wednesday, 22 August 2012 09:51 (9 months ago) Permalink
xxpost
Although yeah, I think NME is an even more extreme example of "in-house" conformity if ever there was one.
― Here's that tenner I owe you, asshole (dog latin), Wednesday, 22 August 2012 09:53 (9 months ago) Permalink
The idea of a "house voice" or "house opinion" bugs me no end; it's dishonest and it's myth-making. So glad Stylus not only put all a writer's stuff together but also gave space for a photo and bio if you wanted to put one too.
― Sick Mouthy (Scik Mouthy), Wednesday, 22 August 2012 10:02 (9 months ago) Permalink
At the same time, my guess is that most readers just don't look at bylines, they see a review and go "Pitchfork said this" or "NME said that".
― Matt DC, Wednesday, 22 August 2012 10:05 (9 months ago) Permalink
xpost Yeah, photos, bios - do it! It's a great idea. Music IS subjective after all and trying to homogenise everything under a house style is as ridiculous as me expecting all my friends to be into exactly the same things.
― Here's that tenner I owe you, asshole (dog latin), Wednesday, 22 August 2012 10:06 (9 months ago) Permalink
I guess this boils down to whether one believes that music criticism ought to be can be objective or subjective though.
^^^^fixed your post
It's the photos/bios thing that bothers me. I would much rather have a list of what ratings they gave to recent albums. I just think that a photo/bio, rather than provide the person's context, will just provide a way for some readers to dismiss that person's opinions if they are not of the expected gender/race/etc.
x-posts
― my god it's full of straw (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Wednesday, 22 August 2012 10:09 (9 months ago) Permalink
At the same time, my guess is that most readers just don't look at bylines, they see a review and go "Pitchfork said this" or "NME said that".― Matt DC, Wednesday, 22 August 2012 11:05 (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― Matt DC, Wednesday, 22 August 2012 11:05 (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
It just seems so old fashioned to think this way in this day and age. Especially when writers move from publication to publication. I'd really like to see music writers given a chance to exorcise their individual eccentricities and values - to maybe have multiple reviewers talking about a release and seeing where their opinions agree or conflict - somewhere between Singles Jukebox and the usual review format, maybe?
― Here's that tenner I owe you, asshole (dog latin), Wednesday, 22 August 2012 10:10 (9 months ago) Permalink
It's not old-fashioned, that's how modern media brand-building works, for better or worse. The Economist doesn't have a single byline in it most of the time.
The exception being columnists obviously, but that's something of a special case.
― Matt DC, Wednesday, 22 August 2012 10:14 (9 months ago) Permalink
in my experience having a "bio" on your publication serves no other purpose than that when people disagree with your reviews they can grab at whatever factoids are available about you to use as insults when they want to discredit your opinions (the best was when a guy from a band i panned laid into me using each of the 4 or 5 things i'd tweeted that day against me in random contextless ways). if a publication doesn't edit away your personality or writing style and puts your byline on what you write that's all they're really obligated to do. not going beyond that to a bunch of social media nonsense is not 'monolithic.'
― some dude, Wednesday, 22 August 2012 10:17 (9 months ago) Permalink
xpost Music (other than music news) is opinion-based, and therefore it's pointless to shy away from making that explicit. Music reviews are not facts, and so a byline works as a caveat: "this is my opinion, your listening experience may vary"
― Here's that tenner I owe you, asshole (dog latin), Wednesday, 22 August 2012 10:18 (9 months ago) Permalink
― Sick Mouthy (Scik Mouthy), Wednesday, August 22,
Your house opinion isn't in what you say about records, its about what you decide to cover
― coal, Wednesday, 22 August 2012 10:20 (9 months ago) Permalink
i mean i'm guessing virtually every PF writer has an easily googleable blog or social media presence where you could really get to know them and their taste if you want to, which would not have been as true 5 or certainly 10 years ago, so i don't know why there's a demand for the publication to hold your hand through that anyway.
― some dude, Wednesday, 22 August 2012 10:22 (9 months ago) Permalink
i was gonna say "i don't" but then i remembered 12 years of the ilx archives. u_u
― big-mammed punisher (strongo hulkington's ghost dad), Wednesday, 22 August 2012 10:27 (9 months ago) Permalink
Your house opinion isn't in what you say about records, its about what you decide to cover― coal, Wednesday, 22 August 2012 11:20
― coal, Wednesday, 22 August 2012 11:20
That's true.
― Sick Mouthy (Scik Mouthy), Wednesday, 22 August 2012 10:30 (9 months ago) Permalink
Only partly true.
― Here's that tenner I owe you, asshole (dog latin), Wednesday, 22 August 2012 10:32 (9 months ago) Permalink
"truthy"
(sorry, couldn't resist)
― Here's that tenner I owe you, asshole (dog latin), Wednesday, 22 August 2012 10:34 (9 months ago) Permalink
PF does manage house opinion to a great degree, possibly more than other publications -- like seemingly going to pains to assign reviews to people who don't go against the staff's emerging consensus, etc. that's probably a smart thing in terms of, like, not panning a record that's going to get voted as one of the year's best a few months later, but it definitely seems a little overmanaged in that sense.
― some dude, Wednesday, 22 August 2012 10:41 (9 months ago) Permalink
One year at Stylus we didn't even review the album that ended up taking our end of year poll #1 spot.
― Sick Mouthy (Scik Mouthy), Wednesday, 22 August 2012 10:42 (9 months ago) Permalink
It's that kind of shortsighted amateurism that made us great.
Ouch this skews male.
http://pitchfork.com/peopleslist/
― Sick Mouthy (Scik Mouthy), Wednesday, 22 August 2012 10:49 (9 months ago) Permalink
Might've hoped for 20% female. But no. 12%.
oh thank god we don't have to talk about stylus anymore
― some dude, Wednesday, 22 August 2012 10:51 (9 months ago) Permalink
Is that 12% the artists or the voters, though?
It looks like the voters to me. (And I chose not to disclose my gender, and I know many women who do the same on the internet.)
― my god it's full of straw (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Wednesday, 22 August 2012 10:52 (9 months ago) Permalink
12% female voters, aye. I'm not sure how they've gathered that data, though - I connected via twitter, but Google+ and Facebook were options. I don't remember filling anything in, so I assume they've farmed the data straight out of the API for whichever platform you used to login.
― Sick Mouthy (Scik Mouthy), Wednesday, 22 August 2012 10:53 (9 months ago) Permalink
I signed in through twitter (which doesn't collect that info) and they asked, but I was able to decline.
Not that the actual representation of women in their list is any better. It's actually worse than I expected. :-/
― my god it's full of straw (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Wednesday, 22 August 2012 10:56 (9 months ago) Permalink
Should we have a separate thread for the countdown or is that futile?
― Here's that tenner I owe you, asshole (dog latin), Wednesday, 22 August 2012 10:57 (9 months ago) Permalink
It doesn't merit its own thread.
More or less exactly the top 20 I'd have predicted, although maybe not in that order.
― Matt DC, Wednesday, 22 August 2012 10:58 (9 months ago) Permalink
I hope the ILM 80s rock poll isn't as predictable
― Algerian Goalkeeper, Wednesday, 22 August 2012 11:00 (9 months ago) Permalink
Would be fun (ha) to start a poll thread to see how high the first album on their vote placed. (40 for me, and it was the one I was most ashamed of including, 51 for an unconditional vote.)
― my god it's full of straw (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Wednesday, 22 August 2012 11:01 (9 months ago) Permalink
I wrote about this on my blog
http://www.ci.desoto.tx.us/index.aspx?NID=61
― coal, Wednesday, 22 August 2012 11:03 (9 months ago) Permalink
no write-in votes placed afaict
― some dude, Wednesday, 22 August 2012 11:07 (9 months ago) Permalink
apparently people who like pop/hip hop the most still prefer radiohead over outkast.
― pandemic, Wednesday, 22 August 2012 11:09 (9 months ago) Permalink
top ten write-ins
PAVEMENT BRIGHTEN THE CORNERSREFUSED THE SHAPE OF PUNK TO COMELAURYN HILL THE MISEDUCATION OF LAURYN HILLBRAND NEW THE DEVIL AND GOD ARE RAGING INSIDE MEPULP THIS IS HARDCOREQUEENS OF THE STONE AGE RATED RDEFTONES WHITE PONYJAY-Z REASONABLE DOUBTBEASTIE BOYS HELLO NASTYPAVEMENT TERROR TWILIGHT
― Number None, Wednesday, 22 August 2012 11:10 (9 months ago) Permalink
There's not much to say about this list, is there? 10 of my picks were in the top 200, pretty much the ones I expected.
― Cong rat ululations (seandalai), Wednesday, 22 August 2012 11:11 (9 months ago) Permalink
Their 'experimental' list is ridiculous
― mod night at the oasis (NickB), Wednesday, 22 August 2012 11:12 (9 months ago) Permalink
Boring list, but between this and that cat power article they've been slipping in some really good design on p4k..
― sktsh, Wednesday, 22 August 2012 11:12 (9 months ago) Permalink
The country distribution is weird. There are more artists from Oxford than the entire country of Ireland? Really?
(am trying not to bristle that Aphex Twin has clearly been called English.)
― my god it's full of straw (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Wednesday, 22 August 2012 11:13 (9 months ago) Permalink
i'd characterise him as English
― Number None, Wednesday, 22 August 2012 11:16 (9 months ago) Permalink
Hang on, how can the same artist/album be in both the "experimental" category and the "pop/r&b" category. How does that work, then?
I suppose there can be experimental R&B, but there is no universe in which Radiohead are R&B. (Tho I don't think there's much of an argument for anything in the "experimental" section actually being experimental, more like.)
― my god it's full of straw (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Wednesday, 22 August 2012 11:16 (9 months ago) Permalink
Were Pavement too mainstream for p4k back in the 90s?
― Listen to this, dad (President Keyes), Wednesday, 22 August 2012 11:17 (9 months ago) Permalink
isn't that just what people who categorised themselves as 'pop/hip hop' or 'rnb' voted for. rather than the genre of the albums themselves. i may be misunderstanding tho'
― pandemic, Wednesday, 22 August 2012 11:18 (9 months ago) Permalink
Oh wait, I have read that section completely wrong. Duh. Radiohead as "global" would have been pretty funny, though.
― my god it's full of straw (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Wednesday, 22 August 2012 11:19 (9 months ago) Permalink
nah, the Brighten the Corners review was removed cos it was one of Ryan's more embarassing early efforts
― Number None, Wednesday, 22 August 2012 11:19 (9 months ago) Permalink
haha, i guess i didn't read the big blurb next to the genre lists either oops
― mod night at the oasis (NickB), Wednesday, 22 August 2012 11:21 (9 months ago) Permalink
so people who are 'experimental' really rate Fennesz. Are they any good?
― pandemic, Wednesday, 22 August 2012 11:21 (9 months ago) Permalink
35ish of my top 100 are in their top 200.
― Sick Mouthy (Scik Mouthy), Wednesday, 22 August 2012 11:21 (9 months ago) Permalink
Fennesz is one dude, and is very good, yes; blissed out digital decaying guitar noise with hidden melodies.
― Sick Mouthy (Scik Mouthy), Wednesday, 22 August 2012 11:22 (9 months ago) Permalink
fuckin hell the 10-15 yr olds are mad for last years strokes album
― pandemic, Wednesday, 22 August 2012 11:23 (9 months ago) Permalink
thank you Scik Mouthy!
Looking at this list now... I mean, woah! It took a year to find out something that could have been estimated within about 5 minutes. I'm actually surprised at how unsurprising this is.
― Here's that tenner I owe you, asshole (dog latin), Wednesday, 22 August 2012 11:23 (9 months ago) Permalink
i think Fennesz became the go-to experimental guy for sites like Pitchfork a few years back because you could talk about the Beach Boys and stuff when writing about him. He is good though, yes
― Number None, Wednesday, 22 August 2012 11:24 (9 months ago) Permalink
I still don't understand what 'global' is supposed to be
― mod night at the oasis (NickB), Wednesday, 22 August 2012 11:24 (9 months ago) Permalink
Still hate that Neutral Milk Hotel record.
― Sick Mouthy (Scik Mouthy), Wednesday, 22 August 2012 11:24 (9 months ago) Permalink
I'm trying to work out what "Pop/R&B" means. (Apart from "will actually rate women.")
― my god it's full of straw (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Wednesday, 22 August 2012 11:25 (9 months ago) Permalink
Old fennesz review I wrote - http://www.stylusmagazine.com/reviews/fennesz/venice.htm
― Sick Mouthy (Scik Mouthy), Wednesday, 22 August 2012 11:25 (9 months ago) Permalink
Accidentally closed the tab now can't get back into the site. Just as well.
― my god it's full of straw (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Wednesday, 22 August 2012 11:26 (9 months ago) Permalink
No Four Tet. Sadface.
― Sick Mouthy (Scik Mouthy), Wednesday, 22 August 2012 11:26 (9 months ago) Permalink
I only like one record that is among the top 20 heavily favoured by my age group.
― pandemic, Wednesday, 22 August 2012 11:29 (9 months ago) Permalink
Radiohead seem to be on every genre list including Americana, Metal and Rap/Hiphop - WTF?
― Here's that tenner I owe you, asshole (dog latin), Wednesday, 22 August 2012 11:34 (9 months ago) Permalink
OIC, ignore me.
― Here's that tenner I owe you, asshole (dog latin), Wednesday, 22 August 2012 11:35 (9 months ago) Permalink
People in my age group must be trying to euthanise themselves through listening to boring music
― mod night at the oasis (NickB), Wednesday, 22 August 2012 11:36 (9 months ago) Permalink
ohhhhh I get it, it was a Converse ad.
― nedless summer (Ówen P.), Wednesday, 22 August 2012 11:38 (9 months ago) Permalink
Not a single tMG album. Outrage!
― all the worlds a stage and kitty's just stepped into the spotlight (cajunsunday), Wednesday, 22 August 2012 11:39 (9 months ago) Permalink
the distinction index for ages 16-20 is horrifying and hilarious
― some dude, Wednesday, 22 August 2012 12:04 (9 months ago) Permalink
LOL at the 4 R&B albums to scrape the top 200:
The Weeknd at 108Frank Ocean at 172Janelle Monae at 177Drake at 199
― Tim F, Wednesday, 22 August 2012 12:14 (9 months ago) Permalink
don't lol at Janelle Monae
― Lil Swayne of Pie (DJP), Wednesday, 22 August 2012 12:17 (9 months ago) Permalink
The Distinction Index for Electronic is pretty good!
% DISTINCTION INDEX52.52% MICHAEL MAYER IMMER52.32% BOOKA SHADE MOVEMENTS48.25% VARIOUS ARTISTS 5: FIVE YEARS OF HYPERDUB46.58% SEPALCURE SEPALCURE45.97% ACTRESS SPLAZSH43.44% ZOMBY WHERE WERE U IN '92?43.13% RUSTIE GLASS SWORDS42.05% ELLEN ALLIEN BERLINETTE41.32% RICARDO VILLALOBOS ALCACHOFA39.99% ELLEN ALLIEN & APPARAT ORCHESTRA OF BUBBLES39.62% BURIAL BURIAL38.96% LUOMO VOCALCITY38.64% ISOLÉE WE ARE MONSTER38.41% AFRICA HITECH 93 MILLION MILES37.78% MADONNA CONFESSIONS ON A DANCE FLOOR36.73% VITALIC OK COWBOY36.18% MOUNT KIMBIE CROOKS & LOVERS35.56% APHEX TWIN COME TO DADDY EP35.1% ALAN BRAXE & FRIENDS THE UPPER CUTS34.98% GOLDFRAPP BLACK CHERRY
― Tim F, Wednesday, 22 August 2012 12:19 (9 months ago) Permalink
DJP you gotta admit that's verging on self-parody.
Likewise the Distinction Index for Pop/R&B:
POP/R&B:TOP ALBUMS VOTED BY PEOPLE WHO SELECTED POP/R&B AS THE GENRE THEY LISTENED TO MOST# POINTSKANYE WEST MY BEAUTIFUL DARK TWISTED FANTASYRADIOHEAD KID ARADIOHEAD OK COMPUTERJUSTIN TIMBERLAKE FUTURESEX/LOVESOUNDSDAFT PUNK DISCOVERYARCADE FIRE FUNERALTHE STROKES IS THIS ITKANYE WEST THE COLLEGE DROPOUTTHE XX THE XXM.I.A. KALAOUTKAST STANKONIAROBYN BODY TALKJAY-Z THE BLUEPRINTNEUTRAL MILK HOTEL IN THE AEROPLANE OVER THE SEABJÖRK HOMOGENICKANYE WEST LATE REGISTRATIONBEYONCÉ 4OUTKAST SPEAKERBOXXX/THE LOVE BELOWLCD SOUNDSYSTEM SOUND OF SILVERTHE WHITE STRIPES ELEPHANT% DISTINCTION INDEX 40.84% BEYONCÉ B'DAY30.95% KYLIE MINOGUE FEVER27.74% AALIYAH AALIYAH27.22% MADONNA RAY OF LIGHT25.26% MADONNA CONFESSIONS ON A DANCE FLOOR23.21% LILY ALLEN IT'S NOT ME, IT'S YOU21.85% LADY GAGA THE FAME MONSTER21.31% MAXWELL BLACKSUMMERS'NIGHT19.55% BEYONCÉ 417.81% ADELE 2117.26% ERYKAH BADU MAMA'S GUN16.98% KATY B ON A MISSION15.98% SALLY SHAPIRO DISCO ROMANCE15.37% THE-DREAM LOVE VS. MONEY15.08% MISSY ELLIOTT MISS E: SO ADDICTIVE14.36% ROBYN ROBYN13.71% RÓISÍN MURPHY RUBY BLUE12.97% AMY WINEHOUSE BACK TO BLACK12.94% MISSY ELLIOTT UNDER CONSTRUCTION12.49% ALAN BRAXE & FRIENDS THE UPPER CUTS
― Tim F, Wednesday, 22 August 2012 12:20 (9 months ago) Permalink
Argh. Look at the second half of that.
― Tim F, Wednesday, 22 August 2012 12:21 (9 months ago) Permalink
when does p4k NOT verge on self-parody and was there even the tiniest chance these results would not be the most self-parodic of all
― lex pretend, Wednesday, 22 August 2012 12:21 (9 months ago) Permalink
distinction for 26-30 (i.e. my age group) makes for sad reading, stuff that was hip when we were in our late teens / early 20s that's now more or less forgotten.
― emo mcgee vs ricky hitler (Merdeyeux), Wednesday, 22 August 2012 12:22 (9 months ago) Permalink
are my reviews self-parody?
― Tim F, Wednesday, 22 August 2012 12:23 (9 months ago) Permalink
is there a single album in the top 200 that wasn't in their awards database
― NASCAR, surfing, raising chickens, owning land (zachlyon), Wednesday, 22 August 2012 12:24 (9 months ago) Permalink
also old people really like drive-by truckers and apparently fountains of wayne
somewhat surprised by all that stuff ahead of tigermilk on the 1996 list. soundtracks for the blind!
― emo mcgee vs ricky hitler (Merdeyeux), Wednesday, 22 August 2012 12:31 (9 months ago) Permalink
Yeah, the Electronic and Pop/R&B distinction indexes are pretty good, i.e. I'd listen to them.
But it's just weird to me that the Pop/R&B one slants as heavily female (90%?) as the general list slants male? There is definitely something going on there.
― my god it's full of straw (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Wednesday, 22 August 2012 12:32 (9 months ago) Permalink
you ever notice that the genres of pop and R&B slant more heavily female than indie rock? amazing, huh
― some dude, Wednesday, 22 August 2012 12:35 (9 months ago) Permalink
it's almost...it's almost like what i was saying over and over upthread about what genres you listen to having a big impact on the gender makeup of your record collection has some merit to it
― some dude, Wednesday, 22 August 2012 12:36 (9 months ago) Permalink
xxpost probably just a combination of the fact that those genres have more successful female artists and that those people who do vote heavily for R&B and Pop are also much more likely to vote for female artists.
― Tim F, Wednesday, 22 August 2012 12:36 (9 months ago) Permalink
e.g. I think it's probably true to say that as a general rule someone who listens to a lot of pop is also likely to listen to a higher proportion of female (or female fronted) rock and rap when they do listen to those genres.
― Tim F, Wednesday, 22 August 2012 12:38 (9 months ago) Permalink
It's almost as if correlation and causation are ~exactly the same thing~ huh
― my god it's full of straw (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Wednesday, 22 August 2012 12:39 (9 months ago) Permalink
this radiohead shit is getting out of control, y'all
― a hoy hoy heat (J0rdan S.), Wednesday, 22 August 2012 12:39 (9 months ago) Permalink
even voters age 16-20 had both kid a & OKC in their top 3
― a hoy hoy heat (J0rdan S.), Wednesday, 22 August 2012 12:40 (9 months ago) Permalink
two most egregious placements: james blake at 72 (i mean honestly) & the weeknd at 102 (i quit the game)
after seeing MBDTF in the top 10, i was actually surprised at how well 'college dropout' did. it beat panda bear!
― a hoy hoy heat (J0rdan S.), Wednesday, 22 August 2012 12:41 (9 months ago) Permalink
really, so being a bigger R&B fan than a metal fan doesn't cause any kind of effect on how many female musicians you listen to? none at all? xpost
― some dude, Wednesday, 22 August 2012 12:41 (9 months ago) Permalink
it's almost as though a genre which traditionally reaches its listeners via the male-dominated medium of the music press ends up with more prominent male artists than a genre which traditionally seeks to appeal to young women and girls
― lex pretend, Wednesday, 22 August 2012 12:42 (9 months ago) Permalink
what we were talking about were the processes by which indie and metal became "male-dominated" whereas pop and r&b did not
I mean, I like Radiohead and I'm a bit embarrassed by those placements.
But, you know, it's almost as if... people who are told over and over "this is the greatest album/artist of all time!!!!!!!!!!11" actually go on to listen to it, and therefore rate it.
― my god it's full of straw (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Wednesday, 22 August 2012 12:42 (9 months ago) Permalink
why are we trying to zing each other with truisms
― Tim F, Wednesday, 22 August 2012 12:43 (9 months ago) Permalink
melissa did a pretty good job of predicting the results, huh
― some dude, Wednesday, 22 August 2012 12:44 (9 months ago) Permalink
what game did you think you were playing tho
― lex pretend, Wednesday, 22 August 2012 12:44 (9 months ago) Permalink
wtf is that reader quote for MPP
― mod night at the oasis (NickB), Wednesday, 22 August 2012 12:46 (9 months ago) Permalink
i can believe that Don Johnson's life is a deranged hippy rave
― some dude, Wednesday, 22 August 2012 12:49 (9 months ago) Permalink
Likewise the Distinction Index for Pop/R&B:POP/R&B:TOP ALBUMS VOTED BY PEOPLE WHO SELECTED POP/R&B AS THE GENRE THEY LISTENED TO MOST# POINTSKANYE WEST MY BEAUTIFUL DARK TWISTED FANTASYRADIOHEAD KID ARADIOHEAD OK COMPUTERJUSTIN TIMBERLAKE FUTURESEX/LOVESOUNDSDAFT PUNK DISCOVERYARCADE FIRE FUNERALTHE STROKES IS THIS ITKANYE WEST THE COLLEGE DROPOUTTHE XX THE XXM.I.A. KALAOUTKAST STANKONIAROBYN BODY TALKJAY-Z THE BLUEPRINTNEUTRAL MILK HOTEL IN THE AEROPLANE OVER THE SEABJÖRK HOMOGENICKANYE WEST LATE REGISTRATIONBEYONCÉ 4OUTKAST SPEAKERBOXXX/THE LOVE BELOWLCD SOUNDSYSTEM SOUND OF SILVERTHE WHITE STRIPES ELEPHANT
POP/R&B:TOP ALBUMS VOTED BY PEOPLE WHO SELECTED POP/R&B AS THE GENRE THEY LISTENED TO MOST# POINTSKANYE WEST MY BEAUTIFUL DARK TWISTED FANTASYRADIOHEAD KID ARADIOHEAD OK COMPUTERJUSTIN TIMBERLAKE FUTURESEX/LOVESOUNDSDAFT PUNK DISCOVERYARCADE FIRE FUNERALTHE STROKES IS THIS ITKANYE WEST THE COLLEGE DROPOUTTHE XX THE XXM.I.A. KALAOUTKAST STANKONIAROBYN BODY TALKJAY-Z THE BLUEPRINTNEUTRAL MILK HOTEL IN THE AEROPLANE OVER THE SEABJÖRK HOMOGENICKANYE WEST LATE REGISTRATIONBEYONCÉ 4OUTKAST SPEAKERBOXXX/THE LOVE BELOWLCD SOUNDSYSTEM SOUND OF SILVERTHE WHITE STRIPES ELEPHANT
Haha -- even the R&B list has a token R&B album. (I understand why this would happen, obv.) (Though I don't understand "pop/R&B.")
― Andy K, Wednesday, 22 August 2012 12:51 (9 months ago) Permalink
no Amy Grant :(
― steven fucking tyler (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Wednesday, 22 August 2012 13:05 (9 months ago) Permalink
sure, but Janelle Monae is my musical girlfriend
― Lil Swayne of Pie (DJP), Wednesday, 22 August 2012 13:13 (9 months ago) Permalink
i lol'd uncontrollably at the blurb for the interpol album
― WheatusVEVO (Hungry4Ass), Wednesday, 22 August 2012 13:15 (9 months ago) Permalink
“Tense, moving and tactically arrogant; the soundtrack to anything after dark. It's a shame the lights have never since shone so bright.”Mark McLennan
ooh, there are blurbs?
― Cong rat ululations (seandalai), Wednesday, 22 August 2012 13:18 (9 months ago) Permalink
i'd buy a coffee table book of reader blurbs left on the cutting room floor
― young money color me badd (J0rdan S.), Wednesday, 22 August 2012 13:18 (9 months ago) Permalink
― Sick Mouthy (Scik Mouthy), Wednesday, August 22, 2012 7:24 AM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― Gurdas Mane (crüt), Wednesday, 22 August 2012 13:19 (9 months ago) Permalink
;_; they didn't use my Third blurb *shuffles sadly back to Java/C++, remembers paycheck, does a dance*
― Lil Swayne of Pie (DJP), Wednesday, 22 August 2012 13:20 (9 months ago) Permalink
Only blurbs for the top 20, presumably taken from the comments people were allowed to make for their faves. Sad the rest of the 200 doesn't get them.
― Sick Mouthy (Scik Mouthy), Wednesday, 22 August 2012 13:21 (9 months ago) Permalink
this list is a disaster
― Gurdas Mane (crüt), Wednesday, 22 August 2012 13:28 (9 months ago) Permalink
Only 3 of my top 10 are in the list at all, but 10 of my top 20 are.
― Sick Mouthy (Scik Mouthy), Wednesday, 22 August 2012 13:30 (9 months ago) Permalink
Only 6 records from my entire list made it. I am clearly not their target audience!
― my god it's full of straw (White Chocolate Cheesecake), Wednesday, 22 August 2012 13:31 (9 months ago) Permalink