Jungle Rhythms

btw lex I was thinking today that I would like to do a thread where I intoduce you to awes jungle. Let me know if you're interested.

― Tim F, Wednesday, October 26, 2011 10:29 AM (17 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i don't know what narc of sd is!

no seriously though the best thing about "one night stand" was how r&b it was, a garage remix is nice but we already have a ton of awesome mis-teeq garage songs. let them be r&b when they need to be.

um, i'm not sure about jungle really. i love goldie's "inner city life" and high contrast & no lay's "angels & fly" but my reaction to the actual beats tends to vary between "don't care about the grooves" to "actively dislike the grooves cuz they're so undanceable"

― lex pretend, Wednesday, October 26, 2011 10:32 AM (13 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

narcissism of small differences

I'm mostly curious about how you'd categorise stuff in those two camps rather than actively keen to convert you.

But if you have an "actively dislike the grooves cuz they're so undanceable" category that isn't just about drill & bass then that probably explains about 90% of our diverging opinions on funky.

― Tim F, Wednesday, October 26, 2011 10:36 AM (10 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i have basically no specific knowledge of jungle, when i first started to go clubbing i tried out a few d'n'b nights and didn't like them much.

drill & bass is just shit though, right? i don't think i've ever been wowed by jungle beat per se, rather than the song on top. (like, i'd love "inner city life" if it had a completely different beat.) i mean, you nailed it a while ago, you're a rhythm nerd and i'm a sonix nerd.

― lex pretend, Wednesday, October 26, 2011 10:43 AM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

The reason I was thinking of it is kinda because so many of my ideas about groove are informed by this idea of rhythmic complexity and danceability existing on a bell curve (this is actually wrong and an over-simplification but anyway) where there's this tension, like, how far can you push the beats and make people want to dance harder?

When you ask people "what are the great jungle beats" sometimes they list stuff that's just like rhythmic frippery, complex or detailed but not super-propulsive, or they go in the other direction and list tunes that are hard-hitting but not particularly rhythmically impressive, and for me the sweet spot is where these two axes meet. And I think this logic is true for funky too (interestingly, I'm not sure if this applies so cleanly for a lot of 2-step).

xpost - any d&b night that has existed while you have been alive of age would not be a good reference point.

Okay I'm gonna start a thread about awesome jungle beats and you can hang there or not as you like.

― Tim F, Wednesday, October 26, 2011 10:45 AM (48 seconds ago) Bookmark

oh if this is where we're continuing:

that's interesting, obviously in terms of clubbing i started with house and techno where there's no rhythmic complexity, and i still think of that simplicity as a platonic ideal.

garage i've always thought of as pop music, and when it comes to pop/r&b my platonic ideal is basically the janet/ciara style of rhythms that may be ridiculously fast or complex but are fundamentally steady enough to use in the regimented atmosphere of a street dance class. 2-step beats fit into that framework, loosely.

what i find amazing about uk funky is how it leans towards both at the same time, but at the same time i don't really care about its beats if it's not leaning towards either.

jungle has never really fit into either framework afaik.

― lex pretend, Wednesday, October 26, 2011 10:51 AM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

This is one of my favourite jungle beats ever, so tactile and crisp, the beats really ripple across yr skin. And the atmospheric synth stuff is so fantastically cheesy-eerie. And the bass so solid. But beyond this what I love about tunes like "She's So" is that, while the beat is constantly mutating, it does so in this completely organic and subtle manner, not really calling attention to itself, like the rhythm morphs not to startle you but in accordance with some weird interior logic of it's own.

FBD Project - She's So

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlNFEsyq5PQ

The best jungle really operates according to an entirely different logic to that I think (responding to yr post lex): this sounds naff or cliched but the beats become the storyteller, and the melodic and textural motifs become the supporting framework like the beat would be in a pop tune; it's like an inversion of the normal structure of popular rhythmic music.

Photek gets a lot of stick (including from me) for various reasons but circa 1994-1995, my god this stuff just blows my mind. "Consciousness" I think you might even like lex, really the perfect fusion of the more refined melodic jazzy tendencies that had well and truly crept in by that point, with beats that just sound like nothing else, it feels like a drummer in your brain hitting different parts of your skull:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CX08_phQHEY

One thing i've always found interesting in jungle (in everything, but some jungle helps to focus the issue) is the relationship between rhythmic complexity and rhythmic simplicity in a single track, like, how a simple rhythm can be metonymic for a complex one. 4 Hero's "We Who Are Not As Others" is unusual because it starts off complex and kinda all over the place and then gets more straightforward, like it's burrowing down to some core of boshing beneath all the pyrotechnics. 4 Hero were never reductionists so it never gets that simplistic, and maybe that's why they could pull off this trick so well, but I still find myself shocked by the sense of unity between the different rhythmic approaches taken; the underlying message seems to be "we can fuck you up in so many ways."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CX08_phQHEY

Argh, wait, here's "We Who Are Not As Others":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qs74cY0qITk

You might have guessed that I'm pretty drunk right now.

(As an aside I'd have thought that rhythm was one of the main attractions of minimal circa. 2005-07, the more polyrhythmic end especially when there wasn't much else going on in the music)

i never got into that end of minimal compared to the stuff that was more about textures and melodies (estroe, "dexter", booka shade etc)

zpost yeah that's a huge part of what I liked about it! There was a little-acknowledged dare-I-say-it jungle sensibility to stuff like this tune:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_83MrEdpgg

Actually not surprisingly the above sounds a lot like a more serious version of uk funky...

I was too young to ever appreciate jungle beyond a 4-disc compilation from the supermarket I got on the cheap, I eagerly await this thread filling up.

it's too bad les twins weren't around to make dance videos in the '90s

This kind of stuff was my jam in the jungle days: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vts6rqJHMK8

Or on a less jump-up, deeper tip:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqvBaU_m1mw

not '90s, but this track hits a sweet spot between groove & variation, or consistency & complexity:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mM8qKXGiHcU

that 4hero track is so epic

This sprang to mind for some reason, Imo a very unique and original record, combining "Rolling" but minimal bristol style beats with a kind sickly sweet euphoric ambience and a whole range of weird screwed samples.

11 minutes long and the main section doesnt even start till 3:30 so feel free to skip ahead

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iO-UfM7X_5w

You can't have one of these threads without Shy FX & UK Apachi - "Original Nuttah". I still remember thinking my entire head was melting the first time I heard this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACCDZlLLV0I

another face-melter from the (IMO) essential Law of the Jungle compilation: Junior Dan - "Heartless"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuHhzk9brKI

Not sure if this has been mentioned elsewhere on ILX, but Raime's mix of old skool jungle for FACT is excellent: http://www.factmag.com/2011/10/17/fact-mix-292-raime/

1. Steve C and Monita – The Razors Edge – Skeleton Records 1994
2. DJ Buz – Slave – No U-Turn 1994
3. 4 Horsemen Of The Apocalypse – We Are The Future (Phantasy & Aphrodite Mix) – Tone Def 1994
4. Blame & Justice – Nightvision (D’Cruze Mix) – Moving Shadow 1994
5. Undercover Agent – Dubplate Circles – Juice 1996
6. Dillinja – Deadly Deep Subs Remix – Deadly Vinyl 1995
7. The Truper – Vol 1 Side B – Street Beats 1994
8. Doc Scott – It’s Yours – Metalheadz 1994
9. DJ Tamsin & The Monk – A Better Place (Baby Kane Remix) – White House Records 1994

if lex of all people doesn't like this one then we should probably give up trying to convert him

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lq0vPjDY7TA

also

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGPgzg7V3Bk

miko yup it was mentioned in www.ilxor.com/ILX/ThreadSelectedControllerServlet?boardid=41&threadid=35392 which is a nice supplement to this thread

hmm All-time BEST Drum n' Bass/Jungle Mix ??

"Wishing On A Star" is an excellent call

oh yeah. and for pop remixes, this one is a favorite, less for the drums than the bassline at 3:00 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfMtTOEFuwE

I love this one to death, too: Deep Blue - "The Helicopter Tune"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krps2ok4smc

hahaha i'm loving these other aphrodite remixes - i got 5 on it! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEr0P7x51k

I don't know if this is too much hardcore/breakbeat precursor than actual jungle/d&b but Lex, you should track down THE JOINT because it's 100% fantastic from start to finish.

dan, you've heard the 2 bad mice remix of helicopter, yes?

Yes! It's great!

I just posted every vid from The Joint that I could find on Youtube (the only one missing is the original "Mystic Stepper") on the ITR music thread btw

lol:

deep blue - "helicopter tune (2 bad mice remix)"

!!! Is this the version that made it onto the Speed Limit comps? If not, I MUST HEAR THIS.

― The Ghost of Black Elegance (Dan Perry), Thursday, September 29, 2005

i'll see if i can ysi tomorrow dan. it's totally different.

― strng hlkngtn (dubplatestyle), Thursday, September 29, 2005

what did we ever do before youtube?

well, ysi, i guess.

great squiggly pascal track
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WaISj2xWY0

is there a dj hype remix of "on and on"? that shit would rule

a legit jungle remix of "on and on" by anybody would rule, actually.

helicopter tune is a...tune

People can talk about what they like in this thread of course, but I started it to talk about tunes with drums that really sing. Like this amazing early Source Direct tune "Fabric of Space", which really captures that moment in the trajectory from atmospheric jungle into, I dunno, post-techstep I guess, the same trajectory all the best and hardest Goldie tunes ever were on. The snares on this are so tactile and impacting!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVOPJNFRG78

ay ay ay

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=De8HwaiQnBA

since i've been "rinsing" it lately, chaps. cheerio.

great thread, tim.

early source direct is great. 'snake style', 'bliss' and 'secret liasons' (not so early but still one of my top 5 jungle tunes). but i'm more of a mood nerd (if such thing exists) when it comes to jungle.

beat wise, always loved this dj crystl tune :

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/B6ZX5-TkOxA"; frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

haha tim i was basically trying to coax lex into paying more attention to jungle by spoonful-of-sugar'ing it via tunes with elements i know he loves already.

i'm not doing very well with these selections i'm afraid (three in) (didn't get to the end of any of them), i'd previously thought i just didn't know enough about d&b but i think i just don't like it :/

i don't like the way the beats...sound? i'm not putting it very well but they don't have any OOMPH to them

that "wishing on a star" track is pretty good though!

So being a 'sonix nerd' means rating Nightslugs, but disliking the entire genre of d&b and jungle (bar 'Wishing on a Star)? Seems weird. I feel bad for you :(

how on earth are you meant to dance to jungle? it's like idm to me tbh

You either follow the snares high-road martial arts-style or go for skanking to the slow-down dubby basslines. Usually, a bit of both. Also, drugs.

This would be my contribution, not sure if it sings enough for Tim though:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2NNM5UWlQo

With jungle you dance half-speed to the bass (the opposite of how I dance to dubstep, which is double-speed to the bass).

Are you more of a vocals rather than beats man Lex?

How about this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XtDgEjZPTE

Guys I think you're on a hiding to nothing here (although it does genuinely surprise me that Lex isn't that interested in rhythm as a focal point of music in its own right).

the dillinja tune was okay, i like the moodiness of it

i like beats, i just need...steady beats when it comes to dance music

That's fair enough I suppose.

this is the only d&b tune i've genuinely loved

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UlCZYoQMBI

no lay's voice isn't just decoration, and the beats work so well with it

and there are so many awesome contrasting synth elements

Haha that's total "empire state of mind" logic right there.

in what way? no one's ever said "empire state of mind" is a good version of any genre (except maybe pop)

Lots of people think "empire state of mind" is a good rap tune because of Alicia Keys.

well that's understandable? she is the only thing about it that miiiight push it into worthwhile territory

I've always thought I could get into jungle, but the more I listen to it, the less convinced I am of that. I still suspect that if I had given it more of a chance back in the 90s, before I started digging into Arabic and Latin music, it might have clicked for me. Kind of weird how it's like a dance music genre made out of jazzy drum solos. I like rhythmic complexity, but not into it.

It's not that I hate it either. I don't mind leaving it on, but it's as if it adds nothing by being on.

So glad that this thread exists. Tim have you heard/do you have the following tape? DJ Rap with Remadee and Det on Kool FM, December 93: http://www.sendspace.com/file/luj4gk
One of my all-time favourite pirate tapes, in any genre. This prob sound weird by whenever I listen to it I always think 'Hey I bet Tim & the ILX Funky dudes would love this sort of thing'.

kinda sad this thread ceased to exist. been working on a jungle article for a local website lately, and your insights (tim) are A+. not to say the other blurbs weren't worth it, obv (it would be great to see this grow) but...he started it.

Thanks rusty.

I think if I ever were to write a book it would be some big unified theory thing about rhythm (qua rhythm) in dance music.

With a readership of about 5.

BTW I hadn't noticed that THE FINEST JUNGLE TUNE EVER* is now on youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qljpMmCM3ko

* or top 5 at any rate.

I was going to say "it saddens me that someone like lex couldn't get with this", but that's not quite it... More like: when I think of how much joy the drums on this give me, it makes me think that not being into jungle rhythms in and of themselves would be like not having one of the five senses, the whole world would seem a bit of a lesser experience.

But srsly what this tune does with snares is like one "holy fuck" after another, a ridiculous thunderstorm of beats.

It's actually what I imagined what Black Secret Technology would sound like based on the descriptions before I heard it.

Another totally amazing, rhythmically lifechanging tune from the same comp, rendering drill & bass redundant well before the fact:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjxR1PTUN5c&feature=relmfu

Yay it's back.
Whenever I get comments from people IRL along the lines of 'quite like jungle but I just don't find it very danceable' (which is an understandable attitude to it in some ways, I'm not slagging lex or anyone else for holding it) this is always one of the tunes I start them off with:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MIsA1AiStY

Also bit WOW @ the Radical Sound and Dub Technicians tunes. Any time I think I've heard it all with jungle things like these come along and I realize I've still got so far to go (which is a good thing obv).

*big WOW

that "what is love" mix's directly from Jungle Soundclash Volume 1

Strictly hardcore!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvMZYz5HoCs

this is one of my favorites, i don't think it sounded quite as generic as it sounds now in 1994 BUT what happens at about 3:15 is still amazing to me (and even though the first part is kinda undistinguished i like the hook enough)

if you compare it though to something like remarc though bizzy b's drum edits are way more brutal and they snarl like detuned synth almost, in remarc there's quite a lot of slightly dated isolated percussion hits (sorry metalheadz)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Qm1F3Z_YnI

at the beginning its like the speakers are firing missiles at you

does what it says on the tin, but ...

(the melody slips out and back) "under from a bass drum"? "thunder from a bass drum"? "wonder from a bass drum"?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0t5Cr2tForc

^^ kinda like autechre until the diva shows up ... and then its like autechre again for a split second and then it just turns into seasick drum rolls

fukin tune! wikid upload --

SKYTZOO

for a second you think the diva's coming back in but then its just the sound of brain cells dying

actually maybe that's why some people hate jungle, it's too much like IDM

on one hand i had to log in to flag the most-liked comment on youtube ("dj rape lol")

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1YtJFBObQQ

on the other hand

http://goldenerajungle.net/mixes/rap/xdjrapx.jpg

The fanboys getting very hot under the collar

― mmmm

while we're getting anachronistic, i believe i detect some early todd terry infuence sneak in around 2:22, gets especially pronounced about 20 seconds later

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7nbPUNxFKE&feature=related

i love how the toms and stuff are folded into the break, otherwise its not that special except it has the sexiest breakdown ever, somehow turns amens into trance snare rolls and it doesn't suck

and here's the "dj rap get raw remix"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ggzXMp8tsc&feature=related

early techstep w/o the dred bass

euphoria + techstep = cyberdelic?

unfortunately she kind of only had a talent for the breakdowns

she does do a good trick at the end of some bars though where the drums mimic little tiny scratches and rewinds

Belated uuuuhhhh at What is Love. Restraint, nonrestraint.

one more

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFzzec3gl98&feature=relmfu

^^ very psychedelic about 3 mins in

i tried the radical sounds one and the beats actively bother me, in a bad way. there's no...pulse to it, it's just all over the place and i can't make sense of it in my head. i like the bass though and would probably like a house remix without those beats. sorry :/

this thread has only made me realise that when i've enjoyed bits of jungle in the past it's because i was basically ignoring the beats, when i actually focus on them i can't enjoy any of it.

haha it's okay lex i'm resigned to this now. Thanks for trying again!

He's just being willful.

Been playing this one an awful lot recently:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5BuitZ-_A8

Sort of like Music Box's slightly more melancholy cousin.
(Not aiming at conversion here, just felt like posting it).

this thread has only made me realise that when i've enjoyed bits of jungle in the past it's because i was basically ignoring the beats, when i actually focus on them i can't enjoy any of it.

it also explains pretty neatly where our opinions on funky tunes differ radically - it's not just a "rhythm nerd vs sonics nerd" thing, it's that the bits I find the most exciting you are actively tuned off by. "House Girls 6" being an apt example.

In some ways funky expresses a direct line of descent from jungle that bypasses uk garage, in that at its most rhythmically perverse it explores a kind of constructive messiness (but not too messy - that's always the tension) that was very rarely part of garage's make-up (though there are exceptions).

the ne plus ultra of funky for me was always the initial wave of do you mind/in the air/falling again. the vocals and melodies and textures. i don't actually think i ever loved a funky house tune for its rhythm. dump a more straightforward beat behind them and i'd pretty much get the exact same things out of the music.

which is why i find even the best funky instrumentals just...okay, rather than best thing ever. i would rather hear ill blu remixes of the entire top 40 before an ill blu vocal-free ep again.

He's just being willful.

i don't even know what this means. i'm pretending not to like jungle?

hmm it sounds a little bit like bragging that you only read books for the verbs

"i only care about plot and characters - you could write "to the lighthouse" in 19th century vernacular and i'd be happy"

the ne plus ultra of funky for me was always the initial wave of do you mind/in the air/falling again. the vocals and melodies and textures. i don't actually think i ever loved a funky house tune for its rhythm. dump a more straightforward beat behind them and i'd pretty much get the exact same things out of the music.

― lex pretend, Monday, 9 April 2012 11:04 PM (13 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Yeah, see, I love all three of those tunes but "In The Air" and "Falling Again" are (already) rhythmically so straightforward that they could never sum up what I love about funky - or not what I love about funky specifically at any rate.

It's a similar issue with a lot of rhythmically straightforward jungle tunes - as much as I adore Alex Reece's "Pulp Fiction", Lamb's "Gorecki (Global Communications Remix)", Doc Scott's "Shadowboxing", Boymerang's "Still", Dom & Roland's "Can't Punish Me" and Lexis' "Destination Unknown", they're too linear to be the tunes that spring to mind when I think of what I love about jungle.

Though that Gorecki remix is probably a tune that you would get with Lex.

i remember not really liking the "gorecki" original back in the day!

"i only care about plot and characters - you could write "to the lighthouse" in 19th century vernacular and i'd be happy"

there was a minor discussion on one of the music compression threads about what people get out of films, actually - for me plot and character are absolutely paramount. obv i care about cinematography but it's rarely the thing i go to get excited about. people who get excited about set design baffle me.

not gonna lie, while i've loved a lot of funky since that initial wave, the failure of the genre to recapture what i loved about it has def been a source of annoyance.

i'm not sure how i can so easily appreciate, say, "stupid hoe" as a beat qua beat though when rhythmic complexity in jungle and funky is a distraction at best.

i don't even know what this means. i'm pretending not to like jungle?

Just find it hard to believe at a certain point that you could listen to so much UK dance music (hardcore continuum, etc.), and not be into jungle. I guess it's entirely possible, but that whole lineage seems to be entirely about rhythm...

But it's about which bits of UK dance music I've loved and the different types of rhythm. 2-step and grime both tend to use much steadier, pulsier beats - and the singers/songs and MCs are front and centre. As discussed elsewhere the UK dance I like most atm is textural rather than rhythmic in appeal. UK dance music post-jungle pretty effectively removes the biggest obstacle about jungle for me, ie the focus on undanceable rhythms that just code as "wacky" and purposeless to me

i'm just saying that i don't think rhythm and melody and harmony and lyrics etc etc are as separable as this conversation is making them out to be, not any point about what you pay attention to or whether you should like jungle or not

guess i should come clean and say i sympathise with lex for the most part - obv not to the rhetorical lengths he's gone to but nevertheless the mystical boners jungle rhythms seem to provide many have always eluded me somewhat

in particular i recall studying the metalheadz oeuvre at length round the time of whenever yall polled it and feeling very "if u say so"

idk, not to dip a toe too far into the shallow waters of self-mythology but my first feeling is i am maybe one more for "juxtaposition" personally, whatever it is i mean by that

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIMQjLuG0OY

lex will you concur with me that this magnificent tune is a triumph greater than any other posted heretofore?

HAHA i actually heard that nookie mix of 'the dreamer' vahid posted this very weekend flicking thru the car radio dial!! but er i spent the entirety of the rhythm bit racking my brains where i knew the sample from

geir to thread

Granted I've really just dipped my toes into it here and there, but one thing I've always found somewhat unsatisfying about jungle is how bifurcated it can feel, like, here's the busy drum part here and there are the elements floating on top of it. They relate to each other but don't really coalesce and interact, as if the drums just take up so much space in the track that the rest can't do much other than drift or poke at them a little here and there. It's as if rhythmic complexity has been reduced to drum complexity, which is a pretty simplistic reading of rhythm if you ask me, and I also don't really understand the idea of someone not being into jungle automatically being labeled "not a rhythm guy"--I love the way house and techno can involve all sorts of rhythms rubbing up against each other, rhythms that aren't just in the drums but are grounded by them. (My favorite jungle tracks, ironically, have been ones that do away with non-drum elements nearly entirely.)

Not really in keeping with the original spirit of the thread but here is the Global Communication Remix of "Gorecki" - only the finest in hypnotic linear d&b. Nb. not for juxtaposition folks:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBMaBYE-Awo

not gonna lie, while i've loved a lot of funky since that initial wave, the failure of the genre to recapture what i loved about it has def been a source of annoyance.

I guess where I struggle with this a bit is that it's asking for funky to have basically stayed subservient to us vocal house mores forever. Which wouldn't have been a bad thing per se but there is a lot of us vocal house and it's not going anywhere. I'm not sure that the same thing but with British divas is enough really by itself to sustain an exciting long term genre.

I always loved that stuff within the context of all the rougher instrumental material (which was always there since the end of 2007 at the latest), but without that sense of dynamic I don't think I could ever have fallen so completely head over heels in love with the style to the point where it became a raison d'etre.

The only analogue I can think of offhand is if speed garage had basically settled into being Tuff Jam permanently.

They relate to each other but don't really coalesce and interact, as if the drums just take up so much space in the track that the rest can't do much other than drift or poke at them a little here and there. It's as if rhythmic complexity has been reduced to drum complexity, which is a pretty simplistic reading of rhythm if you ask me

By the way Clarke FYI this is very very very very very wrong.

i am maybe one more for "juxtaposition" personally, whatever it is i mean by that

this is an amazing sentence

(i will give that a listen later, i can listen to stuff in this office but i'm not quite sure which thing the headphones go in) (i haven't listened to everything on this thread though, i got dispirited quite early on, also bored)

xpost:

The best jungle really operates according to an entirely different logic to that I think (responding to yr post lex): this sounds naff or cliched but the beats become the storyteller, and the melodic and textural motifs become the supporting framework like the beat would be in a pop tune; it's like an inversion of the normal structure of popular rhythmic music.

― Tim F, Wednesday, October 26, 2011 10:55 AM (5 months ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

the beats become the storyteller, and the melodic and textural motifs become the supporting framework

sorry Tim but I now can't help hearing this as Nate Dogg singing "the rhythm is the bass and the bass is the treble"

except the rhythm being the bass and the bass being the treble is a far more attractive proposition both conceptually and as it actually sounded

Tim, I did love that Radical Sound track you posted and said was the best jungle tune ever. I love the way you can focus / move to seemingly any beat division: half-note, quarter-note, eighth, sixteenth--there's an internal logic to the beats as they progress that is beyond my current pre-caffeinated ability to articulate.

x-post: Regarding your quote above about melodic and textural motifs becoming the supporting framework, I see that. I don't care much about melody in my dance music, but texture is a huge thing for me--individual sounds--and I feel like much of the jungle I've heard is a little feeble in the sonics department.

i guess what i struggle with is, if the beats become the storyteller, why do jungle beats sound so thin and dissatisfying? i can think of many amazing drum sounds that i love but none of them are in jungle.

i guess what i struggle with is, if the beats become the storyteller, why do jungle beats sound so thin and dissatisfying? i can think of many amazing drum sounds that i love but none of them are in jungle.

Tim's talking about the rhythms themselves and not the drum sounds, I think. But I know what you mean, and I'm kind of the same way; if I don't dig the particular sound of the drums, I can't get into the track no matter how rhythmically dazzling or engaging it might be.

yeah, i dislike both though - the rhythms are just too messy for me and the drum sounds are not very thrilling. i don't find the rhythms dazzling at all, they just seem entirely and randomly pointless. they don't go anywhere or resolve, i can't use them for anything...

i think this whole thing is just about exposure, jungle beats are pretty radical, personally despite repeated efforts i can't get into them either, but i've never danced to jungle which definitely doesn't help. to me it seems like something that wasn't really present for me at any point.

for that reason i think it's a lot harder to just get into after the fact than say old house/techno which people just come to cos it's played alongside all the current stuff.

usually i think with a bit of effort you can get over this kind of thing but i've tried so many times, including on this thread.

(but i did genuinely enjoy some of the tunes in this btw: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcfLzuBQADs&feature=youtu.be)

The best jungle really operates according to an entirely different logic to that I think (responding to yr post lex): this sounds naff or cliched but the beats become the storyteller, and the melodic and textural motifs become the supporting framework like the beat would be in a pop tune; it's like an inversion of the normal structure of popular rhythmic music.

― Tim F, Wednesday, October 26, 2011 10:55 AM (5 months ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Tim, the more I think about this, the more I wonder: how is this any different from, say, a really rugged Sandwell District track that's basically just one note (if that), thick, dark bass, and ping-ponging "drum"/rhythmic elements echoing off into infinity? Heck, maybe it's not that different (it sounds like a description of a Dillinja track), and I just like the way techno moves better than jungle.

not joking there btw... some actually good tunes in it even if the video is a joke.

This is going to be like shouting at clouds but on a tune like Dillinja's "The Angels Fell" (to use a fairly obvious example) the different drum hits seem (to me) to be so exquisitely textured, for me there's really no division between rhythm and texture in this regard. And the bass as well, those huge, warm tidal flushes washing the lower half of your body out to sea.

Ironically, post-1997, d&b jettisoned rhythmic complexity and and chose to become the pre-eminent soundlab for bass and mid-range texturology in dance music for eternity, only in mostly a bad (or at least deflating) way, at least until brostep came along to do the same thing but slower. If you want a counter-argument for texture > rhythm it's right there.

Clarke I take your points to an extent - the drums are def the most foregrounded element in the majority of jungle tunes and the part that you'll notice the complexity/syncopation of most readily.
But I think in a lot of great jungle tunes the bassline plays a huge part in the groove as well, both in itself (jungle producers really grasped how to use sub-bass as a rhythmic element as well as a sonic one) and in how it interacts with the the drums. Think a couple of people near top of thread mentioned that half-time/double-time tension between as playing a big part in how they dance to jungle, and that's certainly something I've heard a lot.
This tune would be a classic example of what I'm talking about - thinking esp of the bassline that comes in around 1.35 (NB if you're on a laptop you may need headphones to get the full effect). Once it comes in I just can never stay still, like if I'm sitting down I start doing daft stuff like swaying my shoulders.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOW9hD2AMYE

As far as textural and melodic elements go, obviously in a lot of jungle these are taken primarily from samples, and so may be a little sonically unsatisfying in that they don't fill up all that much of the sound-spectrum. Like I can sympathise with people saying jungle records sound thin at times. But at the same time the sample textures are a huge part of what determines the 'atmosphere' of a jungle tune for me. I know that's very vague, but I think the atmospheric specialness has in part to do with the producers taking samples from so many sources, including odd, seemingly non-musical ones at time.

Take this tune for example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCrjX1g2sJc
For most of the tunes other than the bass+drums there's only that spoken-word soundclash (?) extract plus the sliver of droning sample-noise, but the atmosphere of this tune feels very unique and engaging to me, it's like the first sunlight on the dawn of a long, epic day. Or something.

Tim, the more I think about this, the more I wonder: how is this any different from, say, a really rugged Sandwell District track that's basically just one note (if that), thick, dark bass, and ping-ponging "drum"/rhythmic elements echoing off into infinity? Heck, maybe it's not that different (it sounds like a description of a Dillinja track), and I just like the way techno moves better than jungle.

― Clarke B., Tuesday, April 10, 2012 1:05 PM (8 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Precisely because early jungle was not about minimalism in that way. Sandwell District's music is not really something you could describe as having a narrative except in the loosest sense, and then the rhythm, melody and texture are pretty much all on an even footing in that regard (that is to say, they're all operating according to a restrictive logic of changing-same). You can say you prefer that but to me it's like saying "I prefer the color red".

Another classic rollin bass-groove tune (2.00 onwards for when it really kicks into gear):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpqAsx2uTH8

& another classic 'just a little bit of sample-texture creating an atmosphere' tune:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOKm7Ff0SlY

Bored and have time on my hands today in case you couldn't tell...

They relate to each other but don't really coalesce and interact, as if the drums just take up so much space in the track that the rest can't do much other than drift or poke at them a little here and there. It's as if rhythmic complexity has been reduced to drum complexity, which is a pretty simplistic reading of rhythm if you ask me

To harp on slightly, this feels to me like the opposite of what good d&b does - though sure, some of it does do precisely this (I guess a fair amount of sub-par Looking Good fell into this category).

Of course the space between good and bad is just the space between good and bad, as usual. On an otherwise very Looking Good-ish tune like Adam F's "Circles"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9iC3Yo2A2Y

... it's like every element is there to play with or bounce off the drums and the bass, from the dreamy opening arpeggio to the guy saying "check check check check check check check" to the sampled diva vocals to the spiraling synth melodies but most of all the interplay between the drum and the bass itself. And then the beat switches up so masterfully with all these ripples and zephyrs and that arpeggio seems to ripple in simpatico, like everything's being stretched through a wormhole at warp speed.

Roni Size was a master of this kind of thing as well - I love "Trust Me" and "Ballet Dance" for this.

x-post, Tim (I'll delve into your comments separately)

Andy, I really like the roughness and stiched-together quality of the Danny Breaks and DJ Nut Nut tracks above. Maybe I like jungle better when it's less overtly cinematic/atmospheric. When it enters those areas, it sorta sets me up to want/expect an immersive experience (like the minimalism-informed stuff offers) but then the drums feel like they're "in the way" and prevent me from being totally washed over by the track. Whereas the rougher stuff makes me listen to it for rhythmic giddiness and exuberance. It's always good to have a lesson in expecting the wrong things from a genre...

Tim, I had mixed feelings listening through that track. I do see exactly what you're saying about all the elements working to enhance and underline the drums and bass; the track really feels thoroughly composed, with lots of "narrative" development and complexity beyond just the drums. The non-drum elements are so intricate and foregrounded that the drums feel backgrounded even as they carry the track. On the other hand, the moist Angelo Badalamenti synth chord that overhangs the track for its entirety feels to me like a too-obvious signifier of atmosphere, and I found the emotional pitch of the song a bit much--lacking a little, I dunno, austerity.

It's very mid-90s, to be sure.

Which is something to keep in mind about a lot of this stuff.

My point though was that that is a common structure for d&b.

Your line about everything other than the drums doing nothing just seems like a description of unsuccessful d&b. It would be like me saying "oh but so much dub-techno is just a kickdrum with some unintegrated echo effects and a two note bassline."

Although it might help if you identified an example of a problem track.

Andy, I really like the roughness and stiched-together quality of the Danny Breaks and DJ Nut Nut tracks above. Maybe I like jungle better when it's less overtly cinematic/atmospheric.

Yeah again this is something I can agree with up to a point. The only thing I'd say counter to it is that for me, there was a brief-ish period - basically through 1993 and then more sporadically in 94 - when jungle really hit the sweet-spot between sounding rough and stitched-together on the one hand and sounding cinematic/atmospheric on the other.
This is something I was banging on about on dissensus a while back but could never fully get my thoughts in order as to how and why this style really worked for me. I guess in part it's a simplicity thing - only using a few layers of texture in each tune, only changing the samples up a couple of times in a tune, etc. And also I think it's about the variety of different types of atmosphere and their combination in the one tune - particularly the at times slightly uneasy mixture of dark, sinister atmsopheres with more beatific/soothing/uplifting ones.
Some fave examples include Night Moves remix upthread and also -
Smith Inc - Palomino:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOb8ZrrrG78
DJ Crystl - Warpdrive:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDjUgwMlHPE
The Rood Project - Thunder:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=in5OlvInbb4
& I don't want to kill people's browsers with too much yt in one post but you could also search The Invisble Man - The Bell Tune & DJ Mayhem - Inesse (though with that one I actually do find the drums too wacky/distracting in places).

Your line about everything other than the drums doing nothing just seems like a description of unsuccessful d&b. It would be like me saying "oh but so much dub-techno is just a kickdrum with some unintegrated echo effects and a two note bassline."

And you would be right! Ha. But your point is very well taken, and as I said in my first post I'm such a surface-scratcher of jungle that my statements are more me working through initial misgivings given limited samples rather than a thorough appraisal based on lots of experience.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDnV_S4ly3U

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yu_LpVN5orQ

I'm also a bit bored this afternoon, but will refrain from more YouTube posts. My browser is starting to grind as well...

ie the focus on undanceable rhythms that just code as "wacky" and purposeless to me

― lex pretend, Tuesday, April 10, 2012 10:21 AM (12 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I think once you get it jungle and dnb is actually really easy to dance to, i find it easier than house tbh. But theres always that element of the unexpected that keeps you on your toes. Great fun to dance to. Can't say I care much for post 95 dnb but had plenty of good nights dancing to it just cause I know I'm gonna get a good workout.

I seen Shy FX play at a festival in Seville recently and it was hilarious watching the Spaniards trying (like reeeallly trying) to dance to tunes like Original Nuttah. Our little group of brits properly killed it!

Good thread btw

rtc was right about that gorgeous urban jungle track. the double piano note just after she sings "after all" is the best thing - reminds me a bit of the trick "snooze 4 love" pulls! amazing vocal too. and the beat is terrific, just enough skittery tension & uncertainty but steady enough that i can get into the groove of it and stay there.

i like all the components of the adam f tune except the beats, i was enjoying it until they came in and then i had to turn it off within half a minute. i don't understand how tim sees everything playing off them, they seem at odds with everything else...

a lot of this stuff seems really really sexless and unsensual to me too.

ime europeans and americans have v different ideas of what it means to dance to something, dont want to get into a north atlantic clusterfuck but i remember wondering how you dance to jungle and then when i saw people dancing to it i was like "oh"

i think the basic trick to dancing to jungle is ignore everything but the bass

i've never seen anyone look good dancing to jungle

what abt missy at the end of the get ur freak on video?

That Urban Jungle track rtc posted. Where have you been all my life?

re Urban Jungle's "Back In The Days": the (non-jungle) track the vocal was sampled from is The Luv U Wanted by Lil' Louis.

Re "Back In The Days", love this thread that r|t|c started a while back:

jungle/drum and bass with lovers/r&b on top

i think the basic trick to dancing to jungle is ignore everything but the bass

This seems to be true for most people, but actually I dance to the beats in jungle. In some ways jungle really framed how I dance to music generally, even with house music I tend not to dance to the 4X4 so much as all the bits around it, the snare patterns and off-beat hi-hats and the like, to the extent that it has that stuff going on (anything post-Classic really).

All of which makes dancing a much more rigorous exercise.

But the least energising dance music for me is stuff which is too straight rhythm-wise and nothing to build in the friction. I'm not against poundingly 4X4 stuff per se but it the beats need to be rubbing up against something else in the music (something Clarke was referring to upthread). Just dancing to the kickdrum feels a bit too much like being on a stepper machine.

see i know what lex wants. now, for my next trick would you be so kind as to have a bang on this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwI7A_Fy-NU

there will perhaps be a small, briefly disappointing lull of boredom at 3 mins, a perking up and onset of involuntary strutting at 3:40 metastisizing into full-on headbanging as ze untz untz kicks in at 3:52, and finally at 4:04 an opening of the heavens and total overwhelming of electrified e-motion as every skin cell on your body comes alive and is helplessly led every which way by the skittering tattoo, slowmo amen swells and gliding, swooping synth thermals all at once

well you were right about the boredom at the three-minute mark, i liked it a lot before that - the house diva peal obv

good jungle beats are very intrinsicslly pleasurable to me. The sped up amen break is just a tremendous sound that hits me on a very basic visceral level

one thing I've always found somewhat unsatisfying about jungle is how bifurcated it can feel, like, here's the busy drum part here and there are the elements floating on top of it. They relate to each other but don't really coalesce and interact, as if the drums just take up so much space in the track that the rest can't do much other than drift or poke at them a little here and there.

This is part of what I love about jungle, this dense blinding fury of sounds tearing each other apart as they rise to the heavens.

xxp what, and no love after 3 mins? man truly you are a disgusting cartoon savage

I wonder how much adjusting to different rhythm logics is a bit like learning a new language - i.e. it's much much easier and more intuitive the younger you are when you start.

I got into jungle at the same time as really properly getting into house and techno (at about 16/17). Hardcore rave and 2-step garage as well. So house and/or techno were never at the center of my notion of danceable beats, and instead I think even my approach to house/techno was vaguely "junglist" (or perhaps garage-ist).

idk, jungle was some of the first dance music i heard in the 90s. obv not in a clubbing context though. but it's not like house/techno is the only rhythm logic i can get into (going to street dance class really gave me a new insight into a lot of hip-hop rhythms, albeit ones i already liked, but in terms of how to hear them and move to them). the prob w/jungle is that i can't actually discern any rhythm logic at all - i assume the beats aren't random but they may as well be for me.

xxp what, and no love after 3 mins? man truly you are a disgusting cartoon savage

i think what happened at 3mins infected everything that happened after it and the house diva never came back. the 3mins mark inspired me to finally start going through some invoices and then i forgot to pay attention :/

i listened to "inner city life" yesterday and really enjoyed it though

idk, jungle was some of the first dance music i heard in the 90s. obv not in a clubbing context though.

I think this is kind of key though. I listened to a reasonable amount of erm "album dance" music in the mid-late 90s (Orbital, Aphex Twin, Goldie, The Chemical Bros, The Prodigy, Moby, BT, Deep Dish, Roni Size, Plaid, Lo-Fidelity Allstars... basically any dance music likely to get a big album review in Spin) and also stuff that I guess you could call jungle-pop (EBTG, Lamb) but I don't think I really cared about rhythm, or not in the same way, until I started dancing a lot.

Once I did, it was like the moment in The Wizard of Oz where the image switches from black & white to colour. Within a very short space of time I started to hear lots of things I hadn't heard both in music I wouldn't have liked previously and music that I already had liked. And it was really in that period that a lot of my unthinking musical prejudices (not so much convictions, more the way what I instinctively listen for in the music).

but it's not like house/techno is the only rhythm logic i can get into (going to street dance class really gave me a new insight into a lot of hip-hop rhythms, albeit ones i already liked, but in terms of how to hear them and move to them).

Exactly. Learning how you move to rhythms is a huge thing which i think can be entirely separate from simply enjoying them as a listener (esp. when they can be enjoyed in the context of songs).

I would hazard a guess that your approach to rhythm in dance music generally is less house/techno-ist than it is R&B-ist.

Jungle is at the pointy end of this issue because it's difficult to background it, you either get it or it's a problem. Whereas it's a bit easier to simply tolerate or passively enjoy a lot of other beats.

idk what an r&bist approach to rhythm would even be!

the other thing that was kind of life-changing in how i heard hip-hop rhythms was the first time i was driven around in atlanta. it was like, ohhhhh so this is what this music is made for. hard to explain but the rhythm of travelling in a car and the rhythm of the music was a completely natural fit. (cf london where no one ever has cause to get in a car that isn't a taxi, i think i've been in maybe one car a year since i've lived here)

enjoyable to read though that lunatic theory was, i would suggest that "no one ever" type generalisations may just perhaps be somewhat beyond you

Oooft there's some proper beauties on that lovers/r & b jungle thread.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gypbn-PpkxM

possibly a tiny bit too on the nose for tim's 'beats as storyteller' binary (ie. erm, ultradeluxe triphop and not dance music per se maybe) but everything coming after the intro setpiece here is just fantastically, captivatingly atmospheric and evocative, always keeping you in this prowling lull but constantly offguard in a unsettling state of paranoiac restlessness, nightmares in paradise

I get the trepidation re 'fit' but nonetheless that's awesome!

idk what an r&bist approach to rhythm would even be!

In retrospect I was half-remembering what you'd said at the top of the thread:

garage i've always thought of as pop music, and when it comes to pop/r&b my platonic ideal is basically the janet/ciara style of rhythms that may be ridiculously fast or complex but are fundamentally steady enough to use in the regimented atmosphere of a street dance class. 2-step beats fit into that framework, loosely.

I know that doesn't really explain your love of house and techno except perhaps analogously - i.e. something (rhythms, synth tones etc.) takes the place of the "song" and more generally the place of rhythm is as something that can be distinct and impressive but always in the service of a broader structure which it underpins.

The Razors edge, posted up-thread, has to be one of the most undervalued example of rhythmic science in jungle. Skeleton on a whole were a killer label, its just a shame they didnt have a Pete Parsons on board as the production is invariably dodgy.

Some of the later adventures of Steve Gurley are great examples of stuff that straddles the line between experimentation and danceability:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dj7-6RrepIk

D'Cruze is often accused of crossing that line, especially with 'control', but I reckon he mostly stays on the right side:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clhajsaAy_E

Always loved this one, weird off kilter beat, with the amen pushed tight down in the mix. Really come into its own in the mix:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csfZB61oARg

Hi droid, never realized you posted here. Mercy Mercy is big big big, yes.
I'm not the biggest fan of his stuff generally but Cool Hand Flex did some to go through a real purple patch round about 94-95:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFWChSbhKw4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ob-Z7PIuDIE

& of course
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lqIZg8JMaU

Mercy Mercy definitely the stand-out for me though.

One for rtc and the juxtaposition/r&b/dancehall heads (maybe):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rn7L8E6dynU

Great track!

i don't actually think i ever loved a funky house tune for its rhythm.

THIS IS INSANE TO ME.

Haha I'm glad I'm not the only one who listens to funky for rhythm (inter alia) - was starting to feel like a pariah weirdo.

yeah, for me a huge part of funky's appeal was the fact that it seemed to be on a constant quest to find interesting new variations of rhythms i already liked

I have a piece coming out in a french journal in a few months about funky's approach to rhythm and it's on exactly this point, the way in which funky seemed to slide between the rhythmically familiar and the unfamiliar, managing to be rhythmically comforting and confounding at the same time. This isn't a new trick in dance music but I tend to think funky's golden age took it an extreme (to the extent one can describe such a state of inbetweenness as "extreme").

rhythmically comforting and confounding at the same time.

spot on. one of those central tensions.

i don't think i ever heard funky as rhythmically confounding - insofar as i noticed the rhythms they provided a very comforting sweet spot

Lex it's fair to say that little if any of the funky you seemed to like most could be described as rhythmically confounding, in particular stuff like "In The Air" and "Falling Again" are basically straight vocal house.

I have a piece coming out in a french journal in a few months about funky's approach to rhythm

!!

it'll be in french though.

Rev, did you ever hear Dubplate Wonder's Wonderland 09 set? It's all his own productions and it is basically all about that tension, 100%.

Pretty much cosign what Rev & Tim are saying about funky.

Having another boring day where I'm trying to get myself writing, so thought I'd throw in some more thoughts on the whole is jungle danceable/how do you dance to jungle thing -
I guess there were aspects of it that I initially had problems with as a dance, but for me it wasn’t so much the full-on Amen rinse-out tunes that I had problems with – yeah it could be difficult, at times nearly impossible to follow every single beat on them but I could at least generally spasm about to them in the same way that I used to do with like Bad Brains or F-Minus or whatever. I guess in that respect it’s helpful that the Amen break has an inherent degree of energy and forward-motion in it that will come through no matter what way it’s chopped and reordered.

The kind of tunes I had more trouble with were the very strongly reggae-influenced tunes that mostly came out in 94 at the peak of jungle’s popularity. Trying to think of good examples here – Dem A Gwarn Like Dem Know Badness by Tek 9 would be one, or even Idiot Sound by New Blood. Both great tunes of course, and there were loads of others in that style that I loved and straight away wanted to dance to, i.e. I found the rhythmically compelling but wasn’t quite sure how to move my body to them.

I think part of this came from how the producers folded the breakbeats down into that skanking reggae groove – it would create an effect where the beat would seem to drop out at unexpected places, or else where the overall beat pattern of the tune would feel lop-sided or lurching until you got used to it. I think I’ve pretty much got there with dancing to these tunes – of course, like with almost all dance music I’m never sure that I’m dancing the right way to it. I’ve danced to jungle in clubs but not really for full sets and obv not with og jungle ravers so it’s hard to measure my moves against anything. But I can move to it without really thinking about it now which I think is a big part of it, like I’m not often standing around and hesitating.

As a dancer the first kind of jungle tunes that did hook me were along the lines of the M-Beat one I posted upthread, i.e. ones with a beat pattern that was immediately captivating but also concise and not too difficult to follow. Also more steady-rollin’ kind of tunes like The Burial, Helicopter Tune, Sovereign Melody etc. Those were the ones I found myself intuitively making moves to while listening.

Lol 'as a dancer' sounds so pompous, 'from a dancing pov' is maybe a better way to put it.

i'm with the lex on this thread. man, its hard for me to think of too many genres or sub-genres i never want to hear. but this would be one of them. and i try too. i just played portions of every youtube on this thread.

Hey Andy - I used to post a bit on ILC, but I mainly lurk waiting for that rare beast - a good thread about jungle.

RE: Flex. He's a bit patchy fer sure , but I'll forgive him anything because of this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jm6qSLB84-0

And this sublime pulsating bass hot pants 4/4 kick combo:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jrVR7MOIlg

I have a piece coming out in a french journal in a few months about funky's approach to rhythm

#rare #based

Hey Andy - I used to post a bit on ILC, but I mainly lurk waiting for that rare beast - a good thread about jungle.
Haha I feel you on this - don't post here all that much but when I first saw this thread my eyes totally lit up. Trying to get a bit more involved with things here at the moment though.
Had forgotten about Ya Buzzin Again actually, it's a good 'un yeah.
Have listened to that Steve Gurley FX In Dub Mix tune you posted 10+ times in the last few days btw, so good.

So dark that this wasn't the version of "Watching Windows" used on the album:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wX9sas7qoLE

wow

DJ Die remix was also great, but this version goes so fantastically with the actual song, makes it maybe the equal of "Share The Fall".

One of my favourite things about the best Roni/Reprazent beats circa New Forms is how that whole investment in sounding like a live drummer translates into this rhythms where it constantly sounds like the beat is just about to fall behind itself, is always working frantically to keep up. Rather than "fluidity", the effect is a very human wired twitchiness.

i don't actually think i ever loved a funky house tune for its rhythm.

my mind is still boggling at this assertion two years later

Haha

loool

this was a good thread

Vaguely related to peak-era Reprazent, I'm interested in that half-missed opportunity circa 1995-1997 for grooves that were on a Davis/Hancock meets Jon Hassell fourth world tip. Hidden Agenda are the obvious example here but I think they actually verge on being too fiddly when in this mode (my favourite HA track remains "Dispatch #2", which is more of a neurofunk affair).

This was inspired by listening to Form & Function again and rediscovering Peshay's remix of "Rings Around Saturn", the way he redeploys those razor-sharp isolated snares within that constantly pirouetting jazz-funk groove. "On The Nile" probably is a good example of this as well though I'd have to listen again to say just how good.

Funny how drum & bass passed by so many interesting potential avenues of exploration so quickly in its accelerating plunge towards rhythmic conformity. I've really only heard the singles from Miles From Home but they suggested that by 1999 Peshay had totally smoothed out his beats. Even "P vs P"!

Don't know if this can exactly be called jungle, but what it can be exactly called is incredible.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=se1PuiDSVmA

Well duh

In retrospect Trace and Nico's "Damn Son" sounds rather like a hot uk funky rhythm played too fast:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvhZofXqr_A

Remarc - RIP, DJ Hype Remix. Completely mental.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5nIqbq3S-w

Therapy? - Loose (Photek remix)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2E8ebG0faFA

^^^ more d 'n b I suppose, but still great

This Klute remix of Lamb's "Little Things" - so awesomely on that Arcon 2 tip of destroying you with science:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mjzgcX9_ZU

that was good - enjoyed that. i don't know why i find so much of jungle/d'n'b boring though. where i live it's almost the law that you have to like jungle but unless it's something outstanding, i tend to find it inert or just a bit uninteresting after a couple of tracks.

i definitely prefer the furious ragga-based stuff from the early nineties to the more jazzy, stop-start stuff from the mid-decade onwards. I find that stuff frustrating.

check the reverb on this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KABz5IfhzUs