To what degree will you support musicians who (openly, possibly or jokingly) include racist, sexist, homophobic, or bigoted messages in their music, or who privately hold such beliefs?

FULL VOTING OPTIONS

* I will buy music from artists with questionable beliefs IN THEIR MSUIC and/or their labels, or will purchase these things new at retail shops; this doesn't affect my purchasing decisions most of the time
* I will buy music from artists who may hold questionable beliefs in their private lives, but do not promote them in their music directly
* I will buy music from questionable artists in used bins, but not direct from the artist/label - I am happy to own music that I enjoy but not pay the artist/label directly for the privilege of owning it
* I will download such music without paying money for it - I like the music I like, but will not pay for stuff that is questionable in any way
* I will not bother listening to anything of this sort, it makes me sick to even press play, won't touch it with a 20-ft. pole, etc. & so forth
* Other - please explain below

easy on the formatting big fella

anybody who votes anything other than Option 1 is a disgusting savage imho

clusterfuck awaaaaaaaaay

why should it be a clusterfuck? Looks a perfectly reasonable idea

nah it's an intersting idea, you might have noticed that the things it touches on make people on ILX volatile on occasion however

anyway you left out buju banton and all that homophobic dancehall stuff
xp

and clapton's anti-immigrants speech

idk what my actual answer is, probably the 'used bins' one but I am slightly put off by "questionable" which always seems like such a milquetoast-y word in this context

^^ now we're talking

whether ppl should be listening to eric clapton for musical reasons is a whole other issue of course!

xxp both of those are covered in the examples given surely

I've bought pizza from Dominoes back when it was under the control of a weird Mel Gibsonian separatist and don't feel too guilty about it, but if I had to do it over again, I wouldn't, and I do think just a little less of people who would buy such pizza, but only a little, and I guess the same applies to records.
I mean it's not like there isn't any better pizza/records out there. That would have to be some delicious racist pizza!

i always find it strange that,on ilx at least, homophobic dancehall gets a free pass (kinda, ie not by all but by a fair few) while we are all (rightly) happy to pile on phil anselmo/pantera for his despicable awhite power bullshit (varg too) . Not to mention the sexism in other music forms.

An artist with music that refers to Nazi Germany or other uncool party/beliefs

hahaha, gotta love the word choice, huh?

AG's "despicable bullshit" definitely more fitting but hey, it's not cool, either

I think it boils down to if you like the music you can just ignore lyrics but that's kinda impossible with rap since lyrics are such a huge part. I dont know if dancehall is quite so lyric based?

ie Burzum defenders will point out that the lyrics do not in any way reflect any of vargs "dodgy" views so they can listen to it, and of course they always point out to me "you love james brown who beat his wife and you love rick james and you will still buy their music" and will try to imply that you might see sexism or wife beating or murder or homophobia as not being as bad as racism.

Generally I will not buy music that promotes racism, sexism or homophobic views and really I can't stand to listen to it much either.

I will also try not to give money to obvious bigots by buying any of their records.

As far as records go that are made by bigots but do not actively promote their socio-political views, then I am sometimes okay with listening to them but this totally depends on the record and just how tainted it feels.

Stelfox (iirc) had a line about homophobic dancehall v racist BM which was probably pretty reductionist or whatever but has stuck with me - basically that the stuff that Buju or Ward 21 or whoever comes out with is believed by a pretty giant proportion of the country they live in, maybe even to the point where it's in the national psyche

Varg's somewhat unique thoughts about racial purity are, I feel confident in saying, less prevalent in Norway

and that makes it ok?

the people on here who listen to it and dave stelfox dont have those values, so how can they listen to it?

I have to admit, outside of Varg's notoriety, I wouldn't pay any attention to Burzum at all. Maybe there should be an option for "the only reason I listened to it in the first place was because it was offensive." it's definitely more morbid curiosity than support, though. like wondering what dolphin soup tastes like.

so, how was the "dolphin soup" then?

xps not gonna try and dig up the thread it came from (I have no idea where to start rilly) but I suspect it was more a case of "understand how this comes about" rather than "this makes it OK"

still doesn't explain why people who abhor those views listen to it. it's not private personal beliefs, it's right there in the songs.

I would say it depends. I have no problem buying music from Tory or Republican supporters. They are legit political parties which, even though I disagree with them and know most musicians do as well, I see no reason to boycott for any reason.

Racism (and even homophobia) is different. Although I actually don't know if any musician I actually like to any degree would stand for such ideas. Sure, maybe, Eric Clapton or Morrissey, but I feel Clapton (of which I am not really a big fan either) has apoligized for some of his drunk rants back then, and hasn't really said anything like it for decades by now. And Morrissey has said some things (and written some songs - particularly one) which may be interpreted as racist, but not necessary. I mean, surely, I can easily see why "Bengali In Platform" is interpreted as a racist song by some people, but I can also understand Morrissey's reasoning and alternative interpretations.

i dont see any difference between that and listening to RAC or NSBM bullshit tbh. Couldn't listen to music that contained such abhorrent views in the lyrics.

xp

re: Burzum dolphin soup,
bland, watery, not worth burning a church over.

isn't it a pretty big assumption that you 'should' only listen to stuff made by ppl whose moral compass or belief system approximates your own?

ie Burzum defenders will point out that the lyrics do not in any way reflect any of vargs "dodgy" views so they can listen to it, and of course they always point out to me "you love james brown who beat his wife and you love rick james and you will still buy their music" and will try to imply that you might see sexism or wife beating or murder or homophobia as not being as bad as racism.

Not that I would claim to be a Burzum expert, but the Norwegian music press is pretty much aware of stuff that stinks when they find it, and if there was outspoken racism in his lyrics, Norwegian media would surely be quick to point it out and make a case out of it.
There is blatant and outspoken satanism and worship of Evil in the early stuff though.

has anyone mentioned that varg fuckin killed someone?

Don't know what we will learn from these blunt instrument poll choices. I doubt if there's anybody on ILX who doesn't enjoy the work of some artists whose beliefs or actions (interesting distinction) haven't got an element of moral questionableness. I think there are good questions about how we justify these things with what we think are our own beliefs, and the extent to which we engage in special pleading or sophistry or whatevs.

I would say that partly our response to an artist might be the extent to which the offensive beliefs dominate the art: Skrewdriver's racism is a much more total fact of their work than Varg's even, and certainly far more so than say Dannii Minogue's or Morrissey's. The more room an artist gives us to overlook or ignore the stuff that offends us, the more we seem to snatch at the chance to ignore it.

xp there's a disclaimer re that in the OP yes

I used to give a shit. I basically don't now. And I hardly buy any music new so it really doesn't matter much either way.

There is a fair amount of handwringing and excuse-making about homophobic dancehall on boards that care a lot about dancehall. ILX doesn't currently so it's pretty muted these days.

XXX-Post Which I guess was part of worshipping evil. Although killing somebody as (supposedly) evil as himself seems a bit weird in that respect...

has anyone mentioned that varg fuckin killed someone?

― call all destroyer,

i pointed that out to him when he started it and he said he wanted it to be about beliefs and not actions

I would say that partly our response to an artist might be the extent to which the offensive beliefs dominate the art: Skrewdriver's racism is a much more total fact of their work than Varg's even, and certainly far more so than say Dannii Minogue's or Morrissey's. The more room an artist gives us to overlook or ignore the stuff that offends us, the more we seem to snatch at the chance to ignore it.

i am tempted to side w/ this tbh, kinda how i feel ^^

i'm pretty firmly a 'death of the author' person, the grossness has to be blatantly in the music itself before i start to be uncomfortable and even then i've got a high tolerance if i'm digging anything else that's going on in it

It helps that a lot of black metal is less than comprehensible. Also the # of batty boy tunes that make it to mixes, albums I hear is also pretty low.

Interesting poll ilxor
Certainly something I and many others have been thinking about this past week having heard loads of people shouting faggot and/or I fucked Mary in the ass or whatever
The important thing is less "will I listen to/purchase this music with a hateful message" and more "will I acknowledge that this message is hateful". I don't at all think there's anything wrong with hateful art, even Buju fwiw has offered some sort of apology, in a least uncertain terms; the constant reiteration that the middle class LA teenagers in You-Know-What continue to spout homophobic and misogynistic nonsense, both on record and off, and that the journalistic community (not to mention their fans) chalk it up to 'they just don't give a fuck'.
Just as I still think When The President Talks To God was a responsible and commendable statement, yet I still have no ear for Bright Eyes, not even to mention Gaga's super posi gae vibes, with Burzum and OF and others it's more complicated than buy/rent/steal/pass. The message and the surrounding context are as much a part of the art as the song itself. In the case of the two aforementioned artists, I buy them and play them; but I'm significantly much more alarmed at the media's unwillingness to acknowledge and parse the hatred present in one of them as succinctly as they have done so the other.

I just

How many hip hop artists or old blues guys have murdered someone, varg aint on his own here, so i guess that is why ilxor is meaning beliefs rather than actions.

I just nothing, whoops.

I can see objectionable lyrics diminishing your pleasure in certain music but options 3 or 4 seem crazy to me. If you like the music, financially boycotting the artist is just pissy and dishonest.

does the "overlooking" theory hold up in say rap, where clean edits are generally not the ones people prefer?

racist, sexist, homophobic work can be very interesting, even just from an anthropological standpoint. If the work is well made and compellingly executed, it's worth absorbing and studying. Wilde said it best: "There is no such thing as a moral or an immoral book. Books are well written, or badly written. That is all."

subbing out books for records, same difference

i pointed that out to him when he started it and he said he wanted it to be about beliefs and not actions

― Algerian Goalkeeper, Monday, March 21, 2011 6:50 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark

yeah ok it's kind of wacky to me to separate one from the other when the ultimate question is "will you financially support this guy" and the two are somewhat related.

aving heard loads of people shouting ..... I fucked Mary in the ass or whatever

y'wot?

cad, i know, but he does as he pleases!

Don't know what we will learn from these blunt instrument poll choices.

it's more complicated than buy/rent/steal/pass

yr both right-- it's more complicated than this. my main point is just to offer up a few considerations re: to what degree one may be willing to invest in/support an artist whose moral/political/etc. beliefs may conflict w/ one's own. trying to stimulate discussion, basically

does the "overlooking" theory hold up in say rap, where clean edits are generally not the ones people prefer?
--Philip Nunez

The clean edits are just pulling out swear words? Not sure how that applies at all.

having heard loads of people shouting ..... I fucked Mary in the ass or whatever

AG- apparently this is an Odd Future lyric, i didn't know it was "loads of people" though-- do they shout it en masse? (and if so, do they say "WE fucked mary in the ass" as would be gramatically correct?)

financially boycotting the artist is just pissy and dishonest.

Consumer politics are condemned to be a selective game and for that reason you could consider them pointless or even hypocritical. I do, a little. Pissy and dishonest seems to be going too far if you're saying that it's pissy and dishonest not to give financial support to somebody whose politics you think are reprehensible, even tho you might enjoy aspects of their work.

racist, sexist, homophobic work can be very interesting, even just from an anthropological standpoint. If the work is well made and compellingly executed, it's worth absorbing and studying. Wilde said it best: "There is no such thing as a moral or an immoral book. Books are well written, or badly written. That is all."

subbing out books for records, same difference
--Hyper Rescue Troop (Shakey Mo Collier)

I don't think the question is are they interesting, but more given the enormous amount books, music etc in the world do you want to give money to people who you think are for lack of a better word scumbags.

Especially when there are libraries, torrents etc.

xpost I agree with Wilde but in music objectionable views aren't usually just the occasional fleeting racist or anti-semitic lyric but blunt and consistent, plus music is more visceral, so the comparison doesn't quite hold up.

In the former camp - let's call it the TS Eliot problem - the Enoch Powell reference in John Cale's Paris 1919 always makes me wince but I'm not binning the album.

having heard loads of people shouting ..... I fucked Mary in the ass or whatever

AG- apparently this is an Odd Future lyric, i didn't know it was "loads of people" though-- do they shout it en masse? (and if so, do they say "WE fucked mary in the ass" as would be gramatically correct?)

aha that explains why that thread has so many posts over the weekend. Didn't get to check it out for some reason hehe.

"The clean edits are just pulling out swear words? Not sure how that applies at all."
embedded in the cussing is most of the problematic stuff too, and you're left with a very defanged beast.

Theirs an enormous amount of writers, musicians etc in the world who could fall into the scumbag category depending how you wanna define it.

xpost to NV. I honestly can't think of anyone whose music I like who is such an irredeemable asshole that I wouldn't want to pay them for it. I can accept boycotts when applied to certain brands or countries but it's never crossed my mind to apply one to an artist. It feels too much like being one of those jerks who burnt their Dixie Chicks records in 2003.

and you're left with a very defanged beast.

which then, perhaps, would make a perfectly good house-pet! right?

do you own any RAC or NSBM or homophobic dancehall or rap?
xp to dl

Theirs an enormous amount of writers, musicians etc in the world who could fall into the scumbag category depending how you wanna define it.
--a SB-in' artist that been in the game for a minute (Noodle Vague)

Sure it's pretty subjective.

the Enoch Powell reference in John Cale's Paris 1919 always makes me wince but I'm not binning the album

why does this make you wince? pretty weird to read that song as an endorsement of Enoch Powell. Or do you shun that Elvis Costello's "Less Than Zero" too.

as far as financial compensation being the cruz of the question, um everything is free now.

Or at least anything you want to be free can be.

I wonder what's the difference between boycotting a brand and an artist? Do you feel that a brand boycott is more likely to have a reformative effect? It seems more likely that an organised boycott of an artist would have a quicker financial impact. If a brand or an artist changes the way they behave publically because of financial pressure, does it matter if this change is "sincere"?

seems more likely that an organised boycott of an artist would have a quicker financial impact. If a brand or an artist changes the way they behave publically because of financial pressure, does it matter if this change is "sincere"

anybody who does this probably isn't worth listening to as an artist

are you guys all comfortable with reducing ethics to a capitalist market mechanism y/n

"Everything is free" feels like a v. bad faith argument to me in this case. Not that I'm opening up the death of copyright argument.

re: rap as a good house-pet
but people generally don't want domesticated rap! (unless they have kids, or want to blast it at church or something)

I'd like to know how a feminist like tuomas can listen to some sexist hip hop or say the lex can listen to homophobic dancehall. Is it a bit like mordy listening to NSBM just to kinda "know your enemy" stuff?

pretty sure I've got tons of books/records by casual and not-so casual antisemites

I wonder what's the difference between boycotting a brand and an artist? Do you feel that a brand boycott is more likely to have a reformative effect? It seems more likely that an organised boycott of an artist would have a quicker financial impact. If a brand or an artist changes the way they behave publically because of financial pressure, does it matter if this change is "sincere"?
--a SB-in' artist that been in the game for a minute (Noodle Vague)

Threats to boycott only work if the artist in question gives a shit if you their stuff. Sizzla for example has been pretty vocal in the past about not caring.

pretty sure I've got tons of books/records by casual and not-so casual antisemites

yeah and to me this is a real problem and not one with an easy answer. I really amn't sure on what level I can go "gee Ezra Pound that anti-Semitic stuff was really dumb of you, still you are a great poet come here you big lug I forgive ya". I think facile justifications for our behaviour in these circumstances aren't very honest at all

I guess the other question is, uh, these restrictions only applying to people who are currently alive and working, right? Like I'm not really worried about giving renowned anti-semitic Roman writers money. But should I hold it against Penguin Classics for publishing it? Where do you draw these lines? slippery slope.

still you are a great poet come here you big lug I forgive ya

is this what buying a work amounts to? a hug and a validation? it's just a financial transaction, not an ethical endorsement.

I think the ethical question of should I give money to X should be solved by whether money changes hands, yes.

Threats to boycott only work if the artist in question gives a shit if you their stuff.

This is an argument against the efficacy of boycotting somebody, sure. There's still the question of whether you personally feel indifferent to supporting them. I'm assuming nobody here would drop some money in the bucket if the KKK Choir came a-caroling.

Shakey, I don't "shun" the Cale song, I just wince at that line, which could easily be read as an endorsement. I basically agree with you but I don't think it's outrageous to find occasional lyrics jarring, anymore than it's unusual to wince at anti-semitism in Eliot.

AG, what's RAC or NSBM? I'm not a big dancehall fan but I own plenty of rap with sentiments I don't agree with. Sometimes, like Black Korea or a rapey skit, it makes me want to skip the track, other times not.

with shakey 100%

AG, what's RAC or NSBM?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock_Against_Communism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialist_black_metal

What the fuck does the singer have to do with the song anyway? Once it's released, it's my song now.

is this what buying a work amounts to? a hug and a validation? it's just a financial transaction, not an ethical endorsement.

what if lots of ppl buying a person's ethically questionable work, say a musician, enables that person to continue making and releasing questionable content to the public-- when, had ppl held off paying, they would "go out of business," in a sense? it may not be an ethical endorsement, but it's a bit more than just a transaction if it enables that person to continue w/ their day job.

it's just a financial transaction, not an ethical endorsement.

A financial transaction with a living artist amounts to some financial support for their work tho, however small. I think everybody here has a line over which they won't cross in terms of supporting artists - it's how we draw that line that interests me.

you could argue that a lot of offensive material has no reasonable non-offensive substitutes, but I'm finding this sort of thing less and less to be the case. for example, someone told me skrewdriver sounded just like korn

I probably find it easier to listen to music by people with objectionable beliefs where there's less of a requirement that i engage on a personal level with the lyricist. For me, Morrissey's music doesn't work in isolation - it needs me to form a bond with him that i'm simply not capable of doing because i find him a repellent individual. That's not really the case with Beenie Man or Busy Signal, even though their viewpoints are objectively far more unacceptable. I've always been deeply conflicted over dancehall, though, and would never buy albums by deeply homophobic acts or see them in concert. Fundamentally, i can't stop loving their music. It's just not possible - it's a hard-wired response. I'll dance to it but i can choose not to financially back it. The same goes for Phil Anselmo or Brigitte Bardot.

Where hip-hop is concerned, i use a complicated combination of sophistry and hypocrisy to keep things ticking over.

draw the line somewhere north of questionnaires for buskers.

which could easily be read as an endorsement

I really don't hear this at all, sorry. Not to derail this thread into Cale territory but that whole song is a very damning indictment of the chummy, bootlicking, social climbing nature of British fascism - "chopping down the people where they stand" etc. Just goes to show how much is open to interpretation I guess

xp

xpost Well no, RAC and NSBM are just shitty music. Those cases are too easy. We wouldn't even know about those bands if not for the extreme politics.

what if lots of ppl buying a person's ethically questionable work, say a musician, enables that person to continue making and releasing questionable content to the public-- when, had ppl held off paying, they would "go out of business," in a sense?

if the person's "ethically questionable" work is well made and compelling in its own right, by all means it is worthy of being supported. Wilde again.

see the problem with Skrewdriver isn't really that their racist, it's that their racism overwhelms their work to such an extent that it renders it totally shitty. Because they place their political agenda above their aesthetic one. Politics and aesthetics can be married in very effective and interesting and engaging ways. Skrewdriver, however, was not capable of this.

I can still go back and listen to old Pantera knowing that Anselmo is a fucking idiot. If I lost my Cowboys From Hell CD, I'd probably go buy a new one and not have that weigh heavily on my conscience. (But there's also the rest of the band, Dimebag, I dunno)

Gene Simmons skeeves me out wrt the way he talks about women but I have loved Kiss since I was 10 years old. Motley Crue showed soft porn at the last show I went to, I will never make the mistake of seeing them live again but I still love their first album.

I don't know where the line is. I think it changes depending on my relationship with the band/artist, whether or not I can rationalize it (and I don't say that meaning it's a good way to be, I'm just admitting it now so as not get called out on it), and whether their view affects how I relate to the music.

I don't know if I'm even saying what I mean here, sorry I'm all over the place

xp

Skrewdriver fans might disagree. It would be really lucky if it just happened that every artist with actively hateful politics made bad art.

never got round to checking it m'self but 'pre-racist Skrewdriver' has pretty solid cult status among your more recrod collectory-y/KBD type punk enthusiasts

I think it's generally agreed that later on their music reflected the quality of their political thought, but again I wouldn't know

Skrewdriver fans might disagree

whether or not there are any Skrewdriver fans who are not card-carrying neonazi sympathizers tells you all you need to know. As a Jew I can still marvel at some of the aesthetic decisions of the Nazis. But Skrewdriver? gtfo

I don't think DJ Mencap's info contradicts my position at all, fwiw.

what I'm saying is that you seem to want to say "this isn't an issue at all because any artist with wholly hateful beliefs makes terrible art" and I don't see that this is necessarily true

xp "In future please bear in mind/Don't see clear don't see far" seems more like a criticism of those who turned on Powell but the broader point is that some lyrics bother me - and that's good, music should sometimes bother me - my first reaction is not to ban them.

In the case of certain Morrissey records or 70s Ray Davies, my aversion to certain political ideas is inseparable from my aversion to the pinched, misanthopy behind them. Political and aesthetic considerations aren't inseparable - they can be intertwined even in the tone of voice.

the thorough logic of ilxor's poll choices is funny because i don't know anyone who actually abides by a hard and fast rule when it comes to even...thinking about artists w/problematic views, let alone buying their music. we're all pretty inconsistent and illogical about it, i think.

it actually feels more dishonest when i take the moral high ground against, say, chris brown or odd future, knowing that i listen to artists who've done or said worse. homophobic dancehall is even easier to ignore given that in the UK it's so easy to follow dancehall but never come into direct contact with that side of it - what UK dancehall DJ would play those songs?

think it's important not to just shrug this off even - especially if you're a fan - but not to the extent that you end up castigating every rapper for saying "bitch" or something. but praising odd future's lyrics as ~youthful energy~ isn't much better. think it's also important to be honest about when the amorality is the appeal and why - like, i don't just tolerate eg t.i. and lil kim threatening to beat people up on record, that's why i enjoy it. once you admit that to yourself, as i said, it feels dishonest taking any sort of moral high ground. as a journalist there's no way you can sweep the more unpleasant stuff under the rug - idk it's hard to justify though, why would i take beenie man to task over homophobia or odd future over rape, but wouldn't even think of asking t.i. about violence?

that post is totally confused but that's pretty much reflective of the fact that i have no consistent position on this matter that would hold up to logical scrutiny at all.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_5Pi-oW7O-9M/THxEnBrmhVI/AAAAAAAAAF4/_AD9VVan7Q8/s320/Not+again.jpg

(i think withholding financial support is probably the best "solution" to loving the music but finding the message repugnant)

thankyou for your pertinent and thoughtful contribution to the thread, siegbran

didn't this thread happen a few months ago? i guess that one was just racism based, whereas with this one people can get really really angry with each other about other isms.

I agree with all of what lex said, really. What bothers me about this discussion is the idea that people can hold a consistent, honest position on this stuff - I think that's a misguided belief and I think it's often self-justifying in a way that isn't necessary.

otm

Thank you for rehashing the exact same discussion once again, I'm sure we can finally solve this dilemma once and for all, so we can all sleep safely.

"Welcome back to Chipping and Sodbury
You can have another chance
It must all seem like second nature
Chopping down the people where they stand
According to the latest score
Mr. Enoch Powell is a falling star"

I cannot understand how anyone could read these lines as "John Cale approves of Enoch Powell" - he's describing people who are very, very clearly not avant garde welsh musicians

the constant reiteration that the middle class LA teenagers in You-Know-What continue to spout homophobic and misogynistic nonsense, both on record and off, and that the journalistic community (not to mention their fans) chalk it up to 'they just don't give a fuck'

I feel like there's a widespread addiction to a certain myth/narrative about fresh new music -- the smart-ass teenagers who "just don't give a fuck," and/or people's own teenage experiences of discovering something that felt shocking and naughty -- that's creating a total feedback loop around this act.

It's hard to unpack, though -- when I finally ran up against writing about them, I filed something I considered highly skeptical, but by the time it went up, the context had gotten changed and it just looked like a rave.

"this isn't an issue at all because any artist with wholly hateful beliefs makes terrible art" and I don't see that this is necessarily true

no this isn't true at all. I was just giving a specific example of why Skrewdriver suck - which is not because they're racist, but because they're racism overwhelms their art to a degree that makes it bad. It is a poorly conceived and executed aesthetic, with no depth, no subtlety, no artistry.

Ice Cube espouses some "wholly hateful beliefs" about women, homosexuals, Koreans, and Jews (he also has some unflattering things to say about white people) on Death Certificate, but I think that is also one of the best rap albums ever made, even if I do skip "Black Korea" every time. The reason is that the work functions so well as a whole and is so beautifully executed - the beats, the rhymes, the overarching concept, the degree to which it accurately reflected the west coast's black community at the time, the debates it provoked, the level of detail - it is a very deeply absorbing work, you can get lost in it.

xp

Shall we discuss tomorrow whether rap can be considered music, or merely talking over someone else's music?

xpost

So out of interest Shakey, would an artist's politics ever stop you from buying their work if you thought it was good enough?

I can't think of any instance where it has...

I mean Mel Gibson stopped making decent movies in 1981 so that was a pretty easy decision for me to make lol

siegbran you don't have to read this if you don't want to, i don't think anyone's intending to "solve" anything if that makes you feel better. also i guess i didn't see the discussion a month ago, wherever it was.

if i have any hardline position on anything to do with this, it's being equally annoyed by a) people who know nothing about the history or context of the genre moralising and finger-wagging from outside without even trying to engage with it, b) the widespread addiction to a certain myth/narrative about fresh new music -- the smart-ass teenagers who "just don't give a fuck," and/or people's own teenage experiences of discovering something that felt shocking and naughty as nabisco put it, c) people who just shrug off the elements of misogyny/homophobia/whatever and refuse to engage with the fact that they're problematic at all (even if they may not be problematic for you as a listener)

like all three of those stances are so inadequate

even if I do skip "Black Korea" every time.

Right. That's what I mean.

iatee, I think you've swayed me re: that Powell line, though I don't think it's impossible to read it the other way.

I'm not going to participate in this thread because I don't really have anything to contribute but wanted to share that during the moment when I thought "yeah, I wanna get into that" I went on a brief GIS and came up w/this

http://cdn0.sbnation.com/imported_assets/365161/clue9.gif

out of curiousity what's the way you were reading it? I've never read that song as anything but 'john cale is describing someone who he is completely disgusted by'

'So save yourselves for the hounds of hell
They can have you all to themselves
Since the fashion now is to give away
All the things you love so well'

i don't just tolerate eg t.i. and lil kim threatening to beat people up on record, that's why i enjoy it

haha ok i dunno why this surprised me

i always assumed u were a kinda music school dude lex, cuz most ppl i know w/ similar tastes to yours have either a classical background, or wanted to be a pop star in their teens so took singing lessons etc.....aesthetically they will love something like cassie or clipse w/ neat production and clean lines, but if you allude to the outré lyrical content of thug rap etc, it's like 'i don't even hear that'

I don't think people who actually hold abhorrent beliefs are capable of making interesting or novel art, but I do think people who are insane are capable of making interesting art, and sometimes this insanity manifests as abhorrent beliefs, which is why I had such high hopes for Varg, but I guess he's just a sane jerk.

xpost I've never really taken the time to unpack that song TBH, so it's entirely possible I read it wrong but then I don't think it's a particularly clear lyric. I find it hard to place both the narrator and the character he's addressing.

i don't just tolerate eg t.i. and lil kim threatening to beat people up on record, that's why i enjoy it

*Imagines Lex as a teenage Pantera fan*

you niggas better fall back, 'fore i grab a 'ball bat
take it to ya skull, that's gon be the end of all that
insist on having problems? bet this revolver'll solve that
hit 'em in the temple then i leave 'em where they fall at

^^^ <3 <3 <3

you niggas better fall back, 'fore i grab a 'ball bat
take it to ya skull, that's gon be the end of all that
insist on having problems? bet this revolver'll solve that
hit 'em in the temple then i leave 'em where they fall at

Dimebag guitar solo

nakhchivan i've always had a preference for ignorant southern crunk shit over poetic serious-faced storytelling (this is why i like crime mob better than wu-tang clan)

you are classically trained, lex?

dont rly think of wu tang in that way, they veer from grand guignol to kinda psychotic machismo w/ relatively few po-faced moments in between

Regarding Morrissey, are there any possible racist lyrics of his than "Bengali in Platforms"?

Sure, I know some fans of black music tend to interpret "Panic" as an attack on black music, but this is bullshit for two reasons:
a) attacking disco, or other rhythm based music, for being brainless, tuneless, cynical or whatever has nothing to do with racism and cannot possibly by seen as racism unless said attack explicitely says that "I hate nigger music because I hate niggers" or something like that.
b) The lyrics of "Panic", to me, sounds more like an attack on mid 80s radio DJs than an attack on club DJs or club culture. It is simply an attack of the majority of the music that was popular at the time, which mdid include some dance/R&B music, but also a lot of other styles.

lol no, i went to a specialist music school and played the piano badly but i wasn't one of the real musicians - hanging out with them and being in that environment was something i think benefited me though (at least prevented me from being one of those critics who misuse basic theory terms like "coda" and "time signature")

xp

geir bomb

dont rly think of wu tang in that way, they veer from grand guignol to kinda psychotic machismo w/ relatively few po-faced moments in between

yeah i guess i'm just not a huge fan or particularly knowledgeable about them, and they're one of those acts where the cult around them is so strong that being a mere casual fan makes you feel like you're a hater sometimes - or at least that there's something you really don't get

ya yr background makes sense

a friend of mine w/ perfect pitch, former vln/piano prodge seems to think ppl who like noisy/distorted shit are actually insane

she doesn't like crunk tho

(he also has some unflattering things to say about white people)

^^new board description

b) The lyrics of "Panic", to me, sounds more like an attack on mid 80s radio DJs

it was a song about Steve Wright the shitty radio one dj.

classical music prodigies have the oddest, most unpredictable taste in non-classical music

bit like rappers. The whole phil collins thing was a shock.

even some rappers had embarrassing parents i guess

ya idk phil collins has a big kinda sportsbro following

eg ray lewis, steven gerrard

Death Certificate is a good example of a wholly integrated album that's often vile. I'm with lex: as a critic you can't ignore hateful or "problematic" material.

Here's another experiment: as a gay man most of the situations proffered in songs are alien to me. I have to either attempt to understand them on their own terms (not a problem; I've been doing it all my life) or rewrite them as gay narratives. I'm not at all suggesting that the process by which I grapple with unpleasant material is the same as this rewiring of gender, but it just points to how ambivalent our responses to music should be.

if anything, this grappling speaks to how strange it looks to me when somebody digs through songs for autobiographical parallels. If you listen that way, fine! But it's alien to me -- these songs are fictional, and I'm parsing a language which may not surrender its mixed motives, subtleties, and contradictions on first or hundredth listen.

you niggas better fall back, 'fore i grab a 'ball bat
take it to ya skull, that's gon be the end of all that
insist on having problems? bet this revolver'll solve that
hit 'em in the temple then i leave 'em where they fall at

Dimebag guitar solo

not gonna lie—this had me on the floor in fuckin tears for at least 5 minutes

wow BIG thread -- my own thoughts:

I will absolutely not listen to stuff that promotes racism/fascism/misogyny in the lyrics as that basially ruins all music IMO. When it comes to stuff that is itself clean of such messages but made by abhorrent people - if its stuff I like, sure I'll download it or get it from the used bins. I'm not gonna give money to bigots, even if they make good music.

Lyrics by themselves aren't enough. To quote one famous lyricist, it's in how you inflect.

I mean, I have bought and I like Gospel music, so I guess pretty much everything is ok with me.

If I find out someone – even someone I like – has said some ignorant shit, it kind of ruins them for me forever, unless they make some big to-do about recanting (I can't think of any examples of anyone who has made a big fussy apology though).

I don't have to agree with what someone is saying or what someone does to enjoy their work. I do have issues with people who let that get in the way.

If I find out someone – even someone I like – has said some ignorant shit, it kind of ruins them for me forever, unless they make some big to-do about recanting (I can't think of any examples of anyone who has made a big fussy apology though).

Unless they actually change their minds, apologizing about own opinions is a bit pathetic, because, obviously, even though they realize that said opinion may not be so wise for the career, they will usually keep that opinion.
I have more respect for the fact that some may feel misinterpreted, and interpreted to be more racist/homophobe/sexist/etc. than they really were.

I guess apologising for your own opinions at least reinforces the public idea that those opinions are not ok. If a number of major dancehall acts came along and said sorry for their violent homophobia, it wouldn't necessarily make them any less violently homophobic on a personal level but it might stop them actively contributing to a culture that helps to entrench bigotry. It's probably better than nothing.

not gonna lie—this had me on the floor in fuckin tears for at least 5 minutes

― ilxor you've listened to one odd future album once (ilxor), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 01:52 (5 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

if it actually did I would recommend lying in the future, tbqf

MSUIC and/or their labels, or will purchase these thin

otm

I find Eugene Chadbourne offensive but still happily buy his records.

I tend to disagree with Alfred re: the importance of authorial intent and don't treat songs as just "fictions" but he's OTM here - for me the noxious beliefs have to be in the music, and usually they are to some degree. That's why Death Certificate is about the most problematic masterpiece I own, because Ice Cube's voice is so belligerent and certain that there's no ducking or glossing over the lines you don't like. Bot not only is it a great record - it leads you to ask useful questions and dig into why he thinks what he does. The Death Certificate chapter in Jeff Chang's book is fascinating on how these ideas evolved and a reminder that "good" beliefs (anti-racism) and "bad" ones (homophobia) can coexist. At the age I first heard Death Certificate these were important ideas to grapple with - it's a great record because it's problematic, not in spite of it. The reason I want to skip certain tracks is a visceral reaction more than a principled one.

Fortunately Skrewdriver are terrible so we need not listen to them. How can you know what someone's beliefs are in private? I'm sure lots of racists listen to innocuous religious or orchestral music.

I take the lazy route, I judge by the number of idiots in the audience.

"Welcome back to Chipping and Sodbury
You can have another chance
It must all seem like second nature
Chopping down the people where they stand
According to the latest score
Mr. Enoch Powell is a falling star"

I cannot understand how anyone could read these lines as "John Cale approves of Enoch Powell" - he's describing people who are very, very clearly not avant garde welsh musicians

Uh, deliberately or not, you missed out the next two lines:

"So in future please bear in mind
Don't see clear don't see far"

... which suggests to me the narrator of the song does indeed approve of Enoch Powell. Whether you see John Cale and the song's narrator as one in the same is a different matter, obv. it's more comfortable for us nice liberal people to believe they aren't.

How do those lines indicate the narrators approval?

"So in the future, don't see, don't see far"

... that's obv. a reference to Enoch Powell "prophetic" 1968 "rivers of blood" speech

Not trying to be a troublemaker or a troll, just trying to parse this out, because the lyrics seem pretty dense to me, but those words don't appear to be in that speech?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/3643823/Enoch-Powells-Rivers-of-Blood-speech.html

They don't appear in the speech, but Powell's whole thing was being an (almost biblical) prophet foretelling of racial dischord, the man who dares to speak the truth, seeing clear and seeing far. So, in this part of the song anyway, the narrator seems to me to be a follower of Powell, dismayed at his political decline

Here's an interesting question : do you find songs about racism inspiring, or would you prefer to consume something more positive?

Fits with the bit about the "C of E looking down on you and me". Lyric is all over the place anyway, it's John Cale after all. (xp)

Hmmmm...the only google result for "Enoch Powell" and see clear see far are the lyrics for the song. But to just accept what you're saying as fact (because obvs British nationalist history isn't my strong suit), it seems to me that Cale is saying "don't see clear, don't see far" - don't do the things that Powell has been advocating.

Why would you tell somebody not to see clear and far except in a bitter tone of "because the unthinking mob will punish you for it"?

... don't see clear, don't see far because it won't get you anywhere... a prophet without honour in his own land... isn't that obvious?

Exactly

When you are trying to tell somebody not to do those things because those things are what Enoch Powell has been advocating?

... getting even more biblical.. Enoch would certainly have approved

But I don't really care about John Cale or Enoch Powell, so I'll just step on out of this having offered my subjective interpretation.

It's possible that you have to know a bit about the cult around Powell, the great Lost Prophet of post-war Conservatism (and English Nationalism), to recognise this echo in the lyric. But it seems fairly explicit to me - in the context of those lines.

Fair enough.

I would read it as Tom D and NV have done as well. I would assume the protagonist was sympathetic to Powell.As Tom said however that's not the same as Cale being sympathetic.

But well done to Johnny for writing a song about Little England attitudes, calling it "Graham Greene", for no apparent reason, and delivering it in a kind of Welsh Jamaican dialect

I wonder about Greene as a putative narrator of the song, or as the observer behind the narrator, depressed and bored by an England he's turned his back on.

Enoch Powell and John Cale....sounds like party time to me!

attacking disco, or other rhythm based music, for being brainless, tuneless, cynical or whatever has nothing to do with racism and cannot possibly by seen as racism unless said attack explicitely says that "I hate nigger music because I hate niggers" or something like that.

The amount of special pleading and question begging going on here is simply staggering.

I hate niggeir music

on this thread & on others, can people stop proving the oft-made point that typing racist epithets or punning variants of same is still creepy & NAGL in the extreme even if you're being "funny"?

yeah i almost immediately regretted making that pun

I hate nagl music

I always interpreted those lyrics as part of the next passage:

So in future please bear in mind
Don't see clear don't see far
When the average social director
Mistook a passenger for the conductor
So shocking see the old church of e
Looking down on you and me

which is all about seeing/looking

Eh?

When the average social director
Mistook a passenger for the conductor

No idea what this means tbh. Last two lines are exactly what you'd expect the narrator of the song to think of the C of E.

That would have to be some delicious racist pizza!

― Philip Nunez, Monday, 21 March 2011 22:05 (Yesterday)

can I just point out that lol

I wanted to say something on this thread but somehow it became all kinds of off-putting.

w/ cale I just think you have to give him the benefit of the doubt - the 'racist' interpretation requires a very selective not entirely obvious reading. I mean unless he's actually said conservative things that I haven't heard.. this is the same guy who released 'dr. mudd' years later - song is clearly far-left imo!

Has it been mentioned itt yet that Cale is a huge goon?

http://blissout.blogspot.com/2006/12/okay-as-were-trawling-music-mags-how.html

(I mean, that was four years ago, maybe things have changed...)

the 'racist' interpretation requires a very selective not entirely obvious reading

It is pretty obvious if you're British and certainly would have been in 1973! Cale's done his fair share of liberal-baiting in his time.

a) attacking disco, or other rhythm based music, for being brainless, tuneless, cynical or whatever has nothing to do with racism and cannot possibly by seen as racism unless said attack explicitely says that "I hate nigger music because I hate niggers" or something like that.

did you ever take a sociology class and learn how institutionalized racism works, because you sound like a 15 year old libertarian kid right now

yeah I remember he was going on about Snoop etc all the time when he had one of his intermittent flutters of press attention a few yrs back

xps

but snoop was the name of his beagle, etc..

Whiney I think you missed the NRO memo:

NRO's The Corner: Rolling Bile, Spit, and Gnash Thread

If I find out someone – even someone I like – has said some ignorant shit, it kind of ruins them for me forever, unless they make some big to-do about recanting (I can't think of any examples of anyone who has made a big fussy apology though).

― Looking Man (Abbbottt), Monday, March 21, 2011 10:11 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark

The only big fussy apology I can think of is Adam Horovitz': "I would like to... formally apologize to the entire gay and lesbian community for the shitty and ignorant things we said on our first record. There are no excuses. But time has healed our stupidity.... We have learned and sincerely changed since the '80s.... We hope that you'll accept this long overdue apology."

re: cale that looks like a fairly obvious reading to me too, tho' the narrator =/= cale get-out is clearer with him than most - he writes in character lots, certainly on P 1919. Isn't Half Past France a Nazi Soldier point-of-view song?

"a) attacking disco, or other rhythm based music, for being brainless, tuneless, cynical or whatever has nothing to do with racism and cannot possibly by seen as racism unless said attack explicitely says that "I hate nigger music because I hate niggers" or something like that."

did you ever take a sociology class and learn how institutionalized racism works, because you sound like a 15 year old libertarian kid right now

― maher shalal smash paz (Whiney G. Weingarten), Tuesday, March 22, 2011 10:10 AM (43 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

This is fucking jive crap. Who'se worse, the 15 year old libertarian or the college freshman dorm philosipher majoring in "sociology". Tough call.

xpost I almost feel bad for setting off the whole Cale derail but I'm glad that it's not just me who thinks that narrative POV is open to interpretation. Liberal-baiting + general 70s weirdness irt racial politics means it's not impossible for Cale to have had some sympathy with Powell's fall without actually being a racist (which Cale obv isn't).

I was thinking about this the other day - I listened to Tyler the Creator's "Bastard" for the first time (hadn't heard any Odd Future stuff, wanted to see what the hype is about) and felt really kind of sad and taken aback at all the "faggot" lines in particular. I can chalk up a lot of other untoward lyrics to poetic license and storytelling and bravado and jokes, but using the word "faggot" feels much more serious disappointing to me.

But I love Death Certificate despite it's problems, as well as other older hip-hop stuff as I don't keep up with current music to anywhere near the degree that I know and love stuff from 15 years ago.

I think a lot of it is my expectations that young people from a huge city in 2011 should be past this kind of thing by now. For some reason I could understand it 20 years ago but I feel like the acceptance of homosexuality has changed so dramatically that to unironically use the word faggot now is beyond what I'm willing to tolerate in what I listen to.

"Who'se worse, the 15 year old libertarian or the college freshman dorm philosipher majoring in "sociology"."

The 15 year old libertarian. The college freshman dorm philosopher will eventually grow up.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_0viO-Dm52sM/RwkAgdrtMUI/AAAAAAAADM8/WPcm4ePT9mk/s320/cale_nico_by_billy_name_02blog+left.jpg

John Cale (left) and Nico, sharing a racist joke

lol

Nico on the other hand...

I wanted to say something on this thread but somehow it became all kinds of off-putting.

really wish, to be really real about it, that white people who get all "it's just words! I'm quoting somebody!" etc on this shit would actually read this sentence and meditate on it a while and understand that their choice to deploy this kind of language has the effect of excluding people from discussions & sucks & is dumb. cause you know what would make this discussion more productive? The participation of the very people who are excluded when racist or sexist language is deployed by persons of privilege.

maybe get a tattoo of DJP's post guys idk, tattoos are nice, think about it

"a) attacking disco, or other rhythm based music, for being brainless, tuneless, cynical or whatever has nothing to do with racism and cannot possibly by seen as racism unless said attack explicitely says that "I hate nigger music because I hate niggers" or something like that."

did you ever take a sociology class and learn how institutionalized racism works, because you sound like a 15 year old libertarian kid right now

― maher shalal smash paz (Whiney G. Weingarten), Tuesday, March 22, 2011 10:10 AM (43 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

This is fucking jive crap. Who'se worse, the 15 year old libertarian or the college freshman dorm philosipher majoring in "sociology". Tough call.

― Thraft of Cleveland (Bill Magill), Tuesday, March 22, 2011 10:55 AM (11 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Lol @ "jive." It doesn't take a dorm philospher to realize that "I don't hate black people, I just hate their most visible avenues of expression; also I'm going to use the n-word to make my point" is total fucking bullshit

I'd like to know whether Rep. John Lewis, who almost died in the Selma to Montgomery marches, and is possibly the greatest living icon of the civil rights movement, likes either rap or disco. I think i may write his office and ask him.

The idea that if somebody doesnt like disco or rap makes them racist is so stupid, it's really not worth discussing.

We've covered all this ground before, vis a vis the original poster, this is good way to annoy a mod and have them lock the thread

If I find out someone – even someone I like – has said some ignorant shit, it kind of ruins them for me forever, unless they make some big to-do about recanting (I can't think of any examples of anyone who has made a big fussy apology though).

― Looking Man (Abbbottt), Monday, March 21, 2011 10:11 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark

The only big fussy apology I can think of is Adam Horovitz': "I would like to... formally apologize to the entire gay and lesbian community for the shitty and ignorant things we said on our first record. There are no excuses. But time has healed our stupidity.... We have learned and sincerely changed since the '80s.... We hope that you'll accept this long overdue apology."

― Tarfumes The Escape Goat, Tuesday, March 22, 2011 9:22 AM (54 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i think this was a real awesome thing that horovitz did, and really made me feel good about him. i don't think it's "fussy" to own up to shit you did, at all. and let people know that you've changed.

promised myself I wasn't going to participate in this thread & should be doing laundry but "attacking disco, or other rhythm based music, for being brainless, tuneless, cynical" (your earlier phrasing, Bill) is a little different from "not liking" (your later revision). Like, if you claim to like music but can listen to disco and say it's "brainless, tuneless" congrats you are HIGHLY QUESTIONABLE because musicianship on the level of Chic can be a lot of things - you could attack is at sterile, obsessed by tecnique, buncha looks you could come at it with" - but "brainless, tuneless"? nope, something else going on w/you if that's yr claim, because only somebody who'd never actually heard music and/or knew nothing about it would say that about Chic

"it's just my opinion that that music's tuneless"! congrats on not knowing what "tune" means

I'm not even saying that hating disco/rap is inherently racist, I'm saying it's ignorant to deny that there's many shades of racism beyond explicit "I hate black ppl" shit that may be a cause of a lot of ppl's rap/disco hate. ymmv

We've covered all this ground before, vis a vis the original poster, this is good way to annoy a mod and have them lock the thread

― Tom D (Tom D.), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 15:18 (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

um, happy to be corrected otherwise but I can't think of a thread that asks the question (in EXCITING POLL FORM or otherwise) that's being put fwd here

aerosmith just said what I was going to say, only better. Like, there are nontrivial differences between ME NO LIKE and "rhythm based music [is] brainless, tuneless, cynical." See if you can suss out what some of them might be, Bill Magill!

I mean, if you can't see how JUST FOR EXAMPLE, the late-70s anti-disco attitudes that led to, among other things, the disastrous Detroit Tigers' "Disco Demolition Night" was tied up in some nasty anti-gay and anti-black shit, you might be . . . what's the phrase? . . . a fucking retard.

Wait did I miss something, why's everyone piling on Bill Magill? It was Geir who said that?

somebody who'd never actually heard music and/or knew nothing about it

Geir in a nutshell amirite

so glad this has turned into a geir thread now *sigh* I'm outta here

xp The idea that if somebody doesnt like disco or rap makes them racist is so stupid, it's really not worth discussing.

― Thraft of Cleveland (Bill Magill), Tuesday, March 22, 2011 11:16 AM (16 minutes ago) Bookmark

I'm sorry Phil D., you are one of my favorite posters, but the "ME NO LIKE" phrase kinda makes me want to pluck out my eyes.

you're losing them Phil D., better bring out the flapping dickie

http://thumbnails.hulu.com/10/369/35504_384x288_generated__glIPdY439k6p11iRAHReWA.jpg

"attacking disco, or other rhythm based music, for being brainless, tuneless, cynical" (your earlier phrasing, Bill)

I never said this, Aerosmith. Plus I dont feel that way at all. I was quoting another poster.

promised myself I wasn't going to participate in this thread & should be doing laundry but "attacking disco, or other rhythm based music, for being brainless, tuneless, cynical" (your earlier phrasing, Bill) is a little different from "not liking" (your later revision). Like, if you claim to like music but can listen to disco and say it's "brainless, tuneless" congrats you are HIGHLY QUESTIONABLE because musicianship on the level of Chic can be a lot of things - you could attack is at sterile, obsessed by tecnique, buncha looks you could come at it with" - but "brainless, tuneless"? nope, something else going on w/you if that's yr claim, because only somebody who'd never actually heard music and/or knew nothing about it would say that about Chic

not at all a bad point, but the "earlier phrasing" attributed to Bill here was actually said by Geir, and beating him up for calling disco "brainless/tuneless/cynical" when he actually didn't (& instead merely objecting to being called 'racist bcz he doesn't like disco) and then doing a grandstanding dogpile on him is probably not conducive to the kind of reasoned and thoughtful discussion that this thread deserves...I've sb'd Geir for the n-bomb cuz it really wasn't called for: you were absolutely right in an earlier post on some other thread about people round here just jumping at the bit to start using that word, and it's about time it stopped, and no, racism threads are not a good excuse...

xp to Bill -- alright nevermind, and sorry for saying that inferring that you don't like disco...

aerosmith just said what I was going to say, only better. Like, there are nontrivial differences between ME NO LIKE and "rhythm based music is brainless, tuneless, cynical." See if you can suss out what some of them might be, Bill Magill!

― Anti-mist K-Lo (Phil D.), Tuesday, March 22, 2011 11:27 AM (30 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink
I mean, if you can't see how JUST FOR EXAMPLE, the late-70s anti-disco attitudes that led to, among other things, the disastrous Detroit Tigers' "Disco Demolition Night" was tied up in some nasty anti-gay and anti-black shit, you might be . . . what's the phrase? . . . a fucking retard.

― Anti-mist K-Lo (Phil D.), Tuesday, March 22, 2011 11:29 AM (28 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

It was the Chicago White Sox, and to reiterate, I never said that. Learn to read.

xp saying that

No problem Drugs.

No, what you said was that calling someone racist because they don't like disco is stupid. When whether people like disco was not the issue at all. (As opposed to categorically dismissing its musicality and craft, and then ignoring the racial implications of that.)

So I'd be real, real careful about dinging people's reading skills here.

No, you clearly cant read, you stupid fuck.

"As opposed to categorically dismissing its musicality and craft, and then ignoring the racial implications of that"

^I never said or implied this dumbass.

Plus learn the difference between the Tigers and the White Sox, you stupid shit.

Wow. Just wow. You are really, really, really stupid. Like, if I had known in advance I was dealing with a special-needs kid I would've backed off of "fucking retard," but now it's out there and we kinda have to deal with it.

Leave the serious discussions to the adults, chief.

We've covered all this ground before, vis a vis the original poster, this is good way to annoy a mod and have them lock the thread

No, what I mean by the original poster is the The Anti Disco Poster (who shall remain nameless), we've talked about him far too much before

Plus learn the difference between the Tigers and the White Sox, you stupid shit.

― Thraft of Cleveland (Bill Magill), Tuesday, March 22, 2011 11:07 AM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

don't bother, they are basically just there because we need some teams to place 2nd and 3rd in the central, go twins!

Leave the serious discussions to the adults, chief.

― Thraft of Cleveland (Bill Magill), Tuesday, March 22, 2011 11:09 AM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

yo dogg, unless you are a gym teacher you can't call ppl chief

Stop this now.

xposts.

"As opposed to categorically dismissing its musicality and craft, and then ignoring the racial implications of that"

^I never said or implied this dumbass.

No, Bill, someone else said or implied it, and you reduced it to "not liking disco," assuming that nobody would notice the elision, I guess? And now you're getting your back up because . . .? <------------- INSERT ANSWER HERE FOR THE SLOW KIDS

xp Oooh, "chief." Can "pal," "buddy" and/or "sport" be far behind? STAY TUNED.

I'd like to take this opportunity to lobby for the reinstatement of the metal board

Hey Phil D., you happen to live anywhere near NYC? you wanna meet up for a chat?

would you guys fucking kiss already

ffs

You imply that I'm racist (while using "retarded" as an insult), then you should pay.

I blame John Cale for this

I blame Enoch Powell

I blame the internet.

Plus learn the difference between the Tigers and the White Sox, you stupid shit.

― Thraft of Cleveland (Bill Magill), Tuesday, March 22, 2011 12:07 PM (7 minutes ago) Bookmark

While "Disco Demolition" took place at Comiskey Park in Chicago, the White Sox were playing (or rather, forfeiting to) the Tigers that night.

Right, he implied they were the home team.

Hey Phil D., you happen to live anywhere near NYC? you wanna meet up for a chat?

― Thraft of Cleveland (Bill Magill), Tuesday, March 22, 2011 12:14 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

http://images2.memegenerator.net/ImageMacro/4599529/come-at-me-bro-come-at-me.jpg?imageSize=Large&generatorName=Pokemon-Kid

The funny thing is, I live in Cleveland. IT'S LIKE HE KNEW SOMEHOW.

anybody who votes anything other than Option 1 is a disgusting savage imho

clusterfuck awaaaaaaaaay

― Hyper Rescue Troop (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, March 21, 2011 9:51 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlnbmZK7GxU

lol whiney yessssss

L-R: Bill Magill, me

http://www.hclibrary.org/highlyrecommended/wp-content/uploads/image/Angie/3oclock.jpg

what time is it?

hey guys bill magill is NOT a racist. He doesn't like disco big deal. He doesn't like the music not because of who made it, he dismisses tons of music (inc metal bands) dont make mountains out of molehills jeez.

again, I don't think anyone actually called him racist

To what degree will you support musicians who (openly, possibly or jokingly) include racist, sexist, homophobic, or bigoted messages in their music, or who privately hold such beliefs?

It's never a good idea to fling words like retarded around but doing it in this thread with that title is just silly.

I'm more passive-aggressive about racial issues on the internet than you are!

whiney at least one poster was implying he was

Bill Magill is quite partial to a 'disco big deal' iirc

No big deal, thanks AG.

Bill this thread makes me miss football a LOT

It's never a good idea to fling words like retarded around but doing it in this thread with that title is just silly.

― Algerian Goalkeeper, Tuesday, March 22, 2011 12:30 PM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

qft, tbh

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3443/3178687062_1b12731fb9.jpg

no worries bill, whilst i like chic and brass construction and bt express and i feel love is one of my favourite songs of all time, i generally don't like disco, but the idea that you dont like disco is because you are racist or homophobic or whatever is really silly. Yes I know some were/are like that but not everyone.

itt lotsa people who can't read or follow an argument.

Bill Magill spoke out against "Black" Metal the other day case closed imo

Disco Demolition Night: the "supermodel" who helped with that is also the lips in the opening credits of Rocky Horror Picture Show. I, for one, thought that was an essential piece of trivia to carry around.

I don't like black metal or disco (particularly) or hokum country music or opera so there.

wow I always thought it was Tim Curry

Anyway, this thread was really interesting; can we get back on track?

still waiting on sick mouthy's judgment iirc

weigh in!

I dig Bill more than a lot of people we share a love of the Sabs but this:

"a) attacking disco, or other rhythm based music, for being brainless, tuneless, cynical or whatever has nothing to do with racism and cannot possibly by seen as racism unless said attack explicitely says that "I hate nigger music because I hate niggers" or something like that."

did you ever take a sociology class and learn how institutionalized racism works, because you sound like a 15 year old libertarian kid right now

― maher shalal smash paz (Whiney G. Weingarten), Tuesday, March 22, 2011 10:10 AM (43 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

This is fucking jive crap. Who'se worse, the 15 year old libertarian or the college freshman dorm philosipher majoring in "sociology". Tough call.

― Thraft of Cleveland (Bill Magill), Tuesday, March 22, 2011 2:55 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

is how I ended up imputing Geir's Cap'n-Save-the-National-Front post to Bill, and I don't think that was an entirely unfair move on my part - Whiney attacked the Geir post, Bill attacked Whiney's response as "college freshman dorm philosopher' hoo-hah, which I gather he did because Whiney used the term "institutionalized racism," which is an actual thing-in-the-world, not a college conceit - I should own however that I have a huge bug up my ass about people dismissing valid concerns on the grounds that they're big deals to college kids - "college kids care about this & are often inelegant in the way they formulate their arguments" does not speak, in any way, to the content of an argument

sorry to have copied in Geir's racist language, should have edited better

Disco Demolition Night: the "supermodel" who helped with that is also the lips in the opening credits of Rocky Horror Picture Show. I, for one, thought that was an essential piece of trivia to carry around.

I don't think this is true - those lips are Patricia Quinn's

Hey, what did I miss? Are we still talking about Graham Greene? Oh.

ilxor; I've written it but as a blogpost; set to auto-publish in about 3 hours. It's quite long.

But suffice to say, Kanye's a twat.

lol sickmouthy, nice! will watch for that

All I can say about Geir is, in future please bear in mind don't see clear don't see far

xxxxxp right on underrated, and getting after you for not contributing to the "reasoned and thoughtful discussion" is laughable considering the "fuck you fuck" snipe-fest this thread quickly devolved into: you had a really good point, and I didn't mean to detract from that...

I did not call Bill Magill racist, nor did I say that "not liking disco" is racist, NOR did I say that Bill said the thing that Geir said.

What I DID say was:

1. Categorically dismissing rhythm-based or dance music as being inartful and tuneless *can be* racist. (And, not so incidentally, homophobic.)
2. Eliding #1 above as "not liking disco" is some bullshit, and ppl should be called out on it.
3. Dismissing #1 above as "college philosipher [sic] jive" is ALSO some bullshit, and ppl should be called out on *that*, too.

I dig Bill more than a lot of people we share a love of the Sabs but this:

http://www.trollhattansaab.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/saab90-1.jpg

Before the private jets...

All I can say about Geir is, in future please bear in mind don't see clear don't see far

lol well done. I doff my cap to you sir

xxp I was a bit eye-rolley about Bill's first post but i think the elision referred to in 2) was made by Whiney, who DID say that not liking disco made you a racist

I like inference as much as the next person but can we please keep in mind the context under which this argument started, which was a massive Geirbomb?

I know, I only wish I'd had the energy to do a Geirbot/Wasteland.jpg mashup

I will buy stuff by dead racists. It is irrational, since money encourages record label, & it's not like I am checking their will to find out whether I am funding the Nico Foundation for Nordic Purity, but it doesn't feel so much like I am lining the pocket of evil. (tbh, this is more about books than music for me - mostly like wet music, but problems with all sorts of ppl I read from Larkin through Waugh to Celine)

am I a racist if I illegally download Chic albums?

so...

back to the original thread question ...

Where do we draw the line where we dont buy objectionable material/or by people with objectionable extreme views?

What do we do with Wagner?

hah xps

nothing objectionable with Wagner, I fucks with Wagner

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_ZE5B1MC1TQM/TMyKtsv7PaI/AAAAAAAAB8g/lpEvYWe53N0/s1600/wagner-fiuza-carrilho.jpg

& to think i resisted 'c'mon goalkeeper not all PE teachers are racist'.

Wagner's a weird case because if you argue "the nationalism isn't in the music" then it's clear you haven't understood the music in any way at all, but people are such narcissistic listeners now that they think what music is about is how they felt while they were listening to it - but all that said, his understanding of orchestral music is as good as his champions claim

yeah i didn't know how hardcore nazi fuck wagner was until i read that alex ross book, yikes

this is lengthy, but interesting, regarding Barenboim's decision to conduct Wagner in Israel - c/p from Wikipedia

Conducting Wagner in Israel

On 7 July 2001, Barenboim led the Berlin Staatskapelle in part of Richard Wagner's opera Tristan und Isolde at the Israel Festival in Jerusalem. The concert sparked controversy. Wagner's music had been unofficially taboo in Israel's concert halls (although recordings of it were widely purchased and listened to) because of revulsion with the racial anti-Semitism that Wagner had espoused in print - which presaged and quite likely influenced Hitler. Previously the Palestine Philharmonic had performed Wagner's music. Barenboim had long opposed the ban, regarding it as reflecting what he calls a "diaspora" mentality that is no longer appropriate to Israel. In a conversation with Edward Said (published in the book Parallels and Paradoxes) he says that "Wagner, the person, is absolutely appalling, despicable, and, in a way, very difficult to put together with the music he wrote, which so often has exactly the opposite kind of feelings ... noble, generous, etc." He calls Wagner's anti-Semitism obviously "monstrous", and feels it must be faced, and argues that "Wagner did not cause the Holocaust."

Barenboim originally had been scheduled to perform the first act of Die Walküre with three singers, including tenor Plácido Domingo. However, strong protests by some Holocaust survivors, as well as the Israeli government, led the festival authorities to ask for an alternative program. (The Israel Festival's Public Advisory board, which included some Holocaust survivors, had originally approved the program.) [22]

Barenboim agreed to substitute music by Robert Schumann and Igor Stravinsky for the offending piece, but expressed regret at the decision. At the end of the concert he announced that he would play Wagner as an encore and invited those who objected to hearing the music to leave, saying, "Despite what the Israel Festival believes, there are people sitting in the audience for whom Wagner does not spark Nazi associations. I respect those for whom these associations are oppressive. It will be democratic to play a Wagner encore for those who wish to hear it. I am turning to you now and asking whether I can play Wagner." [23][24][25][26] A half-hour debate ensued in Hebrew in the hall, with some audience members calling Barenboim a "fascist." In the end, according to reports in the Israeli press, about 50 attendees walked out, and about 1000 remained, applauding loudly after the performance. (According to Israeli newspaper interviews, at least one who remained in attendance was a Holocaust survivor, again undermining the simple assertion that all survivors opposed the performance of Wagner in Israel.)[citation needed]

Barenboim regarded the performance of Wagner as a political statement, and said he had decided to defy the taboo on Wagner when a news conference he held the previous week was interrupted by the ringing of a mobile phone to the tune of Wagner's Ride of the Valkyries.[27] "I thought if it can be heard on the ring of a telephone, why can't it be played in a concert hall?" he said.

In 2005, Barenboim gave the inaugural Edward Said Memorial Lecture at Columbia University, on the theme Wagner, Israel and Palestine.[28]

"I thought if it can be heard on the ring of a telephone, why can't it be played in a concert hall?"

Lowering the bar a bit there.

Think he's very wrong to say that the anti-Semitism is nothing to do with the music tho

agree heartily, but respect that his position acknowledges the presence of ideology in music

well there's no message that can't be refuted thru performance, certainly

idk it's like erecting a gigantic monument of Andrew Jackson in Oklahoma...lots of ppl would think it's an asshole move and they would be right...

Think he's very wrong to say that the anti-Semitism is nothing to do with the music tho

How is he saying the anti-Semitism has nothing to do with the music? It seems like he's saying it has EVERYTHING to do with the music and the contrast between the hateful motivator and the surprisingly tender, moving output is one of the main things that makes the music fascinating.

"I thought if it can be heard on the ring of a telephone, why can't it be played in a concert hall?" he said.

look forward to his arrangement of "Hollaback Girl" for string quartet

look forward to his arrangement of "Hollaback Girl" for string quartet

your lips to Satan's ears

I was certain that this had already happened in one of those "String Quartet Tribute to..." CDs but, if so, I can't find it.

http://www.amazon.com/String-Quartet-Tribute-Gwen-Stefani/dp/B000BITTEE

IMO this cheats mightily by including No Doubt material

The compilation that dares to ask "what if we arranged 'Magic's in the Make Up' for strings"

1. Wagner died in the early 1880s. He was not a Nazi nor a proto-Nazi. He was a monstrous asshole and anti-semite, but also a pretty fierce supporter of the international revolutionary wave that sprung from the events of 1848. The latter is very evident in his operas. The former is not.

2. Die Meistersinger has some creepy stuff that sort of lays out aspects of German culture that would later make it vulnerable to the Nazi virus. Also Die Meistersinger was performed as a Nazi rally event which, cards on table, makes me p uncomfortable listening to the piece (which ain't Wagner's fault). Parsifal is also kinda creepy because it is one big solemn post-Christian ritual piece, which is a look the Nazis would later cop for their events and regalia.

But please, aero and NV, show me where the operas and their music contain racist or fascist ideology. I am not talking about aesthetic tropes later copped by the Nazis, or references to philosophers who would later become Nazi favorites. (And don't tell me about the supposed 'parody of klezmer' in the music for Mime the dwarf, I mean listen to it, it's not there.)

3. Wagner's a weird case because if you argue "the nationalism isn't in the music" then it's clear you haven't understood the music in any way at all, but people are such narcissistic listeners now that they think what music is about is how they felt while they were listening to it

This is beneath you, aero. Those of us who consciously listen to and think about and enjoy Wagner's operas are therefore narcissists? I think it more likely that Wagner touches some particular hot button for you, which I can dig, I mean the CONCEPT of him carries evil baggage and he DID publish racist books in his lifetime, full of nauseating crap.

4. I write the above as someone who is NOT a 'the music exists in a vacuum' person. E.g. i will not listen to Varg's stuff even stolen and for free, because I do not want that guy's energy in my head and I do not want to commune with him in any way.

xpost I think they were a little premature - I bet they're kicking themselves about "Rich Girl" now

they should have done "Bathwater", it might have ended up sounding like Bartok pastiche

there's a thread out there for these things already, right

http://www.amazon.com/Strung-Out-String-Quartet-Tribute/dp/B000U711JC/ref=pd_sim_sbs_m_1

"Wagner, the person, is absolutely appalling, despicable, and, in a way, very difficult to put together with the music he wrote, which so often has exactly the opposite kind of feelings ... noble, generous, etc."

This seems odd to me: how are these difficult to put together? Aren't most despicable nationalisms based on really noble and romantic aesthetic ideas? They're just despicably selective about whom they're willing to attribute that nobility to. They have extreme notions of the glory and nobility of one thing and the contrasting filthiness and degradation of everything else. They go together and feed one another, don't they?

Well yes; I think he's highlighting the cognitive dissonance of being convinced that someone with monstrous opinions can produce art capable of moving you as that points to a commonality in viewpoint that both parties would likely rather pretend didn't exist.

Guys, Barenboim actually means noble and generous on a human level, not the Nationalist version of noble and generous. THESE ARE NOT GERMAN NATIONALIST OPERAS except mebbe Die Meistersinger.

I am not talking about aesthetic tropes later copped by the Nazis, or references to philosophers who would later become Nazi favorites.

it's my position that what the Nazis saw in these tropes and what Wagner meant by them are one and the same. the character of Mime is one of the most loathesome pieces of racist dramatic craft ever imo. The Nazis didn't invent their take on Wagner's heimat und volk stuff - they saw in him their ideological predecessor. Rightly in my opinion. I mean if we called his works "celebrations of German myth & character," that'd be a benign way of pointing out that he celebrates these characteristic to the specific exclusion of people whose music he declined to conduct w/o gloves on lest he be stained by the Jewishness of the music.

Here's a piece I haven't read all of that seems interesting in which Mahler divines very clever musical motifs in mime:

http://solomonsmusic.net/WagHit.htm

Book I would read if life were longer: http://www.amazon.com/Richard-Wagner-Anti-Semitic-Imagination-Contexts/dp/0803297920

Guys, Barenboim actually means noble and generous on a human level, not the Nationalist version of noble and generous. THESE ARE NOT GERMAN NATIONALIST OPERAS except mebbe Die Meistersinger.

we are capable of reading comprehension and some of us have actually done Die Meistersinger

They have extreme notions of the glory and nobility of one thing and the contrasting filthiness and degradation of everything else. They go together and feed one another, don't they?

Wagner's operas do not do this. His disgusting non-fic books do.

xpost Dan that was directed more at Nabisco

xxp I always kind of wondered why ppl hated mimes

would've been funny if the Israeli conductor had deliberately given a really terrible performance of the Wagner material - Jews win by ruining the anti-semite's work lol

that would have really showed wagner

I say do all of the music immaculately but always refer to the composer as "Dick Wanger"

lol

Dick Wrangler iirc

Fascism is one case where I feel like it's important to be able to mentally separate the aesthetic feeling from the ideology, if only so you don't get tricked by confusing the two. To me, it feels easy to "appreciate" the stirring / triumphant / glorious / romantic aesthetics of fascism -- they were demonstrably compelling and over-the-top in a way people are constantly cribbing from. (Will spare everyone like eight paragraphs here on Sontag, camp, Kiss of the Spider Woman, Mishima, and Starship Troopers.) They tap into some particular human (or just Western?) energy that's not strictly ideological. Same with mob energy, which can be pretty similar! So my answer to the thread question probably involves that feeling where this energy has been activated, and then you have to step back for a moment and double-check what it's being activated in the service of -- e.g., "is this a healthy communal anger or am I just being drawn into a mob?" -- and figure something out from there...

Jon -- I don't know from Wagner and am not making any assertions about his operas. I'm saying it seems perfectly natural for a person who holds nationalist or anti-Semitic views to create art with a genuine sense of nobility to it; it does not strike me as mysterious to reconcile.

xpost or announce "...composed by Robert Wagner...uh...oops, I mean Richard Wagner, damn I always get those two confused"

I agree with Mr Tyler that the Ring Cycle in particular is about forging the same vision of Germany that the Nazis would later endorse, because they come from the same tradition, not because the Nazis have somehow corrupted Wanger's work.

And I thoroughly enjoy/love his work, but I wd be astounded if the things that look anti-Semitic in the work of a guy obssessed with anti-Semitism didn't have even the slightest anti-Semitic connotations.

Jon -- I don't know from Wagner and am not making any assertions about his operas. I'm saying it seems perfectly natural for a person who holds nationalist or anti-Semitic views to create art with a genuine sense of nobility to it; it does not strike me as mysterious to reconcile.

No i feel ya I was just pointing out that I think these are not the two things Barenboim is finding mysterious to reconcile. He is talking abt a humanist kind of nobility, not a damn-this-is-GLORIOUS kind of nobility. The latter is of course very easy to reconcile with the notion of fascism/nationalism/racism.

The latter kind of nobility also shows up, in the Ring for instance in the Valhalla music, but this theme belongs to the Gods who are NOT the good guys, and the pomp of the Valhalla theme is v obviously used with irony. As in, when it is blaring out nobly as the gods enter the newly-built Valhalla you actually hear river spirits singing offstage about the bad faith Valhalla was built with.

I agree with Mr Tyler that the Ring Cycle in particular is about forging the same vision of Germany that the Nazis would later endorse, because they come from the same tradition, not because the Nazis have somehow corrupted Wanger's work.

Really? I dunno. I just don't get this from the Ring. It questions itself constantly, and seems to me to deliver no message that is not highly ambivalent. Strikes me as the most politically complex opera I've heard.

Let me add that having now read the essay linked by aero I am nauseated afresh at the disgusting shit Wanger said on and off the record.

Though the essay is full of questionable leaps of logic, there is a RW quote I've never seen before, spoken in re: the final act of Siegfried, which makes me want to throw up.

Ugh why am I bothering to defend this guy's operas, he's not even one of my favorite composers, I just happen to think The Ring is a musicodramatic masterpiece.

What I've read about the guy is that he was more nuts control freak like Walt Disney than garden variety hatemonger, though can't say I'm too impressed with Walt Disney either. What's a good Wagner substitute, though? With Disney there's at least Six Flags and Pixar.

Very long and probably not worth reading. http://sickmouthy.com/2011/03/22/objectionablemusic/

"In what other context would you tolerate savagery for lols?"

^^ A+

What's a good Wagner substitute, though?

Bruckner - arguably a superior composer, too (very arguably, I should say - he does not soar to the ridiculous heights of Wagner, but it can be argued that he sounds similar depths)

What I've read about the guy is that he was more nuts control freak like Walt Disney than garden variety hatemonger, though can't say I'm too impressed with Walt Disney either. What's a good Wagner substitute, though? With Disney there's at least Six Flags and Pixar.

― Philip Nunez, Tuesday, March 22, 2011 2:02 PM (19 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

you should REALLY REALLY read the essay aerosmith linked to upthread

also Bruckner understood choruses better than Wagner

Yeah I was gonna say Bruckner.

When it comes to baggage, though, one does have to point out Bruckner was hitler's favorite composer of all. But Bruckner the man was pretty much totally innocuous (while his music brings the cosmic, sub-oceanic, abysmal and bucolic in equal measure).

Bruckner doesn't even come close.

Apart from that, one wonder's what the point is in trying to take issue with somebody who died well over a hundred years ago, we're forgetting how different everything must've been, history combined with a widespread humanist climate can do that sometimes.

xpost Also the first few R Strauss outings are pretty much a humorous grand guignol answer to Wagner. Strauss is equally deft and elaborate but does NOT take himself seriously.

Apart from that, one wonder's what the point is in trying to take issue with somebody who died well over a hundred years ago, we're forgetting how different everything must've been, history combined with a widespread humanist climate can do that sometimes.

Seriously? is it really your position that everybody was a noxious antisemite? it's demonstrably untrue, if so.

Yeah this isn't a 19th century novelist casually using the N-word because that was what people did back then - it's virulent bigotry.

When it comes to baggage, though, one does have to point out Bruckner was hitler's favorite composer of all. But Bruckner the man was pretty much totally innocuous (while his music brings the cosmic, sub-oceanic, abysmal and bucolic in equal measure).

but yeah - I mean - Hitler loved painting, too - nothing wrong with painting. But what he liked about painting wasn't "its very essence opposes the Jewish infestation and uplifts the Aryan spirit," whereas it can be convincingly argued that that's exactly what he likes about Wagner. Bruckner, on the other hand, just a gentle dude thinkin about God. who Wagner was a dick to, btw, which makes me hate Wagner even more.

Wagner was a dick to Bruckner I mean not to God except like maybe broadly speaking

I just figured someone was bound to bring it up so might as well get it over with.

Yeah, Wanger was also, depending on the year, a leech and a dick to Liszt, who was one of the few true bros of the 19c.

Yeah, Wanger was also, depending on the year, a leech and a dick to Liszt, who was one of the few true bros of the 19c.

which we can all learn about from watching Lisztomania btw

Liszt, who was one of the few true bros of the 19c.

think there's a bunch of 19th-century cuckolded husbands who might differ with you on this score

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRd88MPEvAE&feature=related

Rick Wakeman as Thor^^^

lol you guys are getting Phoenix songs stuck in my head - plz stop

some pretty hilar composer caricatures in this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzG1qcav8aA

Seriously? is it really your position that everybody was a noxious antisemite? it's demonstrably untrue, if so.

I wasn't particularly clear but I'm saying that we're so far removed, in time and (what I'm emphasising here) in mind. It's easy to pass the huge differences in modes of thought between now and then, given the widespread default non-thought surrounding what it means to be human today.

>>Liszt, who was one of the few true bros of the 19c.

think there's a bunch of 19th-century cuckolded husbands who might differ with you on this score

Love is NEVER wrong, aero, come now.

One of the worst things Wagner did to Liszt was turn FL's daughter Cosima into an ideological clone of himself, one who DID live long enough to consort with Nazis...

whole movie is hilar, one of Russell's best imho

xp

prettylike: ah, I get you - we are coming at reality from deeply diff. philosophical standpoints in that case - I really think the present day vastly overstates the depths of its differences with the past - to the point where I consider the deepest differences one can name largely cosmetic, and that historians won't say "at this or that point in the late 20th century" (or whatever point one assigns) "some break occurred or finished occurring which drove a rift between the mindsets of preceding ages and the ones that followed" - I think western culture is basically of a comprehensible, apprehendable piece

I purchased an Arghoslent CD before. They are racist, redneck morons but the CD just kills.

I've heard rumors those guys are just taking the piss but idk. "Hornets of the Pogrom" as a title sounds like a Christopher Guest take on nsbm for sure though

I don't think so...

yeah but I mean did you ever read any crucial youth interviews? kinda smell misanthrophic art-prank. I don't listen to them just in case don't get me wrong but I think they might be kinda Mentors-level trolling

I'm sorry, I can't stop lolling at their songtitles (Incorrigble Bigotry!)

Speaking of Liszt, going to this on Wednesday, pretty awesome:

CIM ORCHESTRA with LESLIE HOWARD
(Concert Series)

Presented in collaboration with Cuyahoga Community College
LESLIE HOWARD, piano and conductor, guest artist
CIM ORCHESTRA
CARL TOPILOW, conductor

In honor of the 2011 bicentennial of composer Franz Liszt’s birth,
Leslie Howard and the CIM Orchestra will present world premieres
of newly discovered Liszt manuscripts.
Pre-concert talk begins at 7:00 pm.

Awesome! Was just listening to a volume of Howard's complete Liszt series this morning.

xpost The interviewer's italicised commentary is creepier than the band's answers.

I like this bit: "Even though we deal with taboo topics, none are expressed or dealt with in a disrespectful or irresponsible manner."

Says the band with members called Holocausto and Pogrom. I don't think they're just trolling though.

Shall we discuss tomorrow whether rap can be considered music, or merely talking over someone else's music?
― Siegbran, maandag 21 maart 2011 23:44 (Yesterday) Bookmark

?

Siegban

it's my position that what the Nazis saw in these tropes and what Wagner meant by them are one and the same.

Utter bullshit. Every generation re-invents the meaning and uses of art and thought. Wagner's nationalism should be seen in the context of the post-Enlightenment reaction to universals (mostly as posited by the French) and expressing itself in 19th century romanticism and nationalism; perhaps even defensible in some kind of Burkean way if conducted with humility and circumspection. I don't recall Wagner, whatever one thinks of his music, as ever calling for genocide however anti-semitic he may have been and German anti-semitism has pretty deep and complicated roots, ones that were not unknown throught all Christendom, tbf.

I don't think Wagner has to have called for genocide in order to put his nationalistic anti-Semitism in the same lineage as what the Nazis ended up doing, otherwise you are making an argument that veers perilously close to the "but he didn't dress up like a Klan member" line of defense against accusations of racial insensitivity.

Michael White, "I don't recall him as ever calling for genocide ergo he's not in the exact lineage of national socialism" is ridiculous. Most member of the fuckin' SS never "called for genocide" either - you wanna excuse them too? Does a guy gotta get "I'm a nazi" tatted on his face before he's actually a nazi, or can we look at his ideology and call it what it is?

well hold on there, chronologically speaking it was impossible for Wagner to be a Nazi, I will fully back up that argument 100%

acting like Wagner's shit was completely divorced from what inspired Hitler seems... completely wrong tho

chronologically speaking it was impossible for Wagner to be a Nazi, I will fully back up that argument 100%
^^^yes

Pretty sure genocide wasn't a Nazi policy in '33.

Yeah, but looking back, I find something offensive in almost every person in the past. Is that reason to refuse to engage with their work, especially music? I am not fond of Xtianity on the whole, should I throw out my Bach? Porgy and Bess can make me uncomfortable at times. Should I toss it and all of Gershwin?

"but he didn't dress up like a Klan member"

It doesn't matter what the Klan member wears, of course, but the quality of his/her music isn't affected either way, necessarily. Do we know the sculptor of the Venus de Milo's politics? Do we care? The mosaicist from Pompeii, was he racist against Carthaginians or Greeks or Germans? Does Ming dynast vase imply a world view that anyone not from the Middle Kingdom inferior? I dunno and I don't care.

My answer to the original question is that very often offensive people let their offensiveness ruin or marr their art. Inasmush as they don't and their work is good, I'll enjoy it at whatever level I enjoy it.

well hold on there, chronologically speaking it was impossible for Wagner to be a Nazi, I will fully back up that argument 100%

Also while his racial views are well matched to theirs, the rest of his political thinking is not. He was on the left, not the right.

xp

this is the point of the thread tho! I don't think anybody's called for a background check on every artist they get into, but we're talking about the issues involved in enjoying the art of somebody who you know to be a scumbag, and by scumbag we can narrow it down to something like "actively endorsing hatred of a societal group thru their art". I pretty much fall into the "if I like the art enough I'll let anything slide" camp but I'm not sure that it's a good camp or a personally justifiable one.

I don't know how helpful Left and Right are (at all really but especially with regard to Wanger and Nazis. Afaik Wanger was never a Socialist in any meaningful sense, whereas the early Nazi party did have several ranking members who wanted the party to take its Socialism seriously.

My answer to the original question is that very often offensive people let their offensiveness ruin or marr their art. Inasmush as they don't and their work is good, I'll enjoy it at whatever level I enjoy it.

^^^a gentleman and a scholar, folks

Most member of the fuckin' SS never "called for genocide" either - you wanna excuse them too? Does a guy gotta get "I'm a nazi" tatted on his face before he's actually a nazi, or can we look at his ideology and call it what it is?

Listen, most of the Germans under the gangster Nazi regime were desperate sheep or opportunists; morally irresponsible, reckless even. (I'm reading a bio of the Warburgs and the amount of sheer confusion even amongst the German Jewish community as to what to make of the Nazis in the early 30's is heart-rendingly sad). The Nazis were pretty clear about ridding germany of Jews and their 'nefarious' influence.

Was Wagner an anti-semite? Yes. Had there been no Wagner, could you still have ended up with Hitlers and Goebbels and Rosenbergs and Luegers? Very probably.

xpost but Wanger was active in the mid-century revolutionary movement and had to flee the country for fear of arrest, which is kind of actively left, no?

I think that when people are dyed in the wool visceral racist type people, they wont have what it takes to create mindblowing music. Maybe I am naive. But barring Siegfrieds Funeral March, everything else Wagner did was wank. People who become obcessed with racial bullshit aint ever gonna create great music. The best music has always come from people who are lost to the music.

Left in the sense of being anti-monarchist and wanting a united, democratic Germany.

I should admit here that I prefer Wagner's music w/o vocals, generally so I am a bit of a philistine on the subject.

I think that when people are dyed in the wool visceral racist type people, they wont have what it takes to create mindblowing music. Maybe I am naive. But barring Siegfrieds Funeral March, everything else Wagner did was wank. People who become obcessed with racial bullshit aint ever gonna create great music. The best music has always come from people who are lost to the music.

Don't believe any of this, sorry.

I should admit here that I prefer Wagner's music w/o vocals, generally so I am a bit of a philistine on the subject.

This box set is your friend:

http://www.amazon.com/Ring-Tristan-Parsifal-Orchestral-Adventures/dp/B0043VLWXQ/ref=sr_shvl_album_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1300832866&sr=301-2

Maazel's "Ring Without Words" concoction hits all the good bits but is too breathless presto-change-o; the standard orchestral chunks miss too much good music. I recommend the above for the vocal-allergic.

I pretty much fall into the "if I like the art enough I'll let anything slide" camp but I'm not sure that it's a good camp or a personally justifiable one.

this is generally me too actually, but I don't think this principle is one worth defending - think more it's one to be overcome personally, as it places one's own pleasure above all - to take things over to metal, I care more about the friends who'd think "aerosmith you're better than that" if they found out I was listening to nazi metal & diggin' it than I do about the pleasure I might take from said metal, and that's actually a functioning principle for me (not a "what if my friends found out principle" since as been discussed elsewhere I don't have irl friends): would I want people to know I take pleasure in racist music by racists? No; I'd be ashamed; so I avoid Wagner. I don't argue that others should not listen to him, but when somebody says "I just look past the racism," I feel kinda like "it's a bourgeois privilege to be able to overlook racism."

and yes I am keenly and painfully aware that both Wagner is responsible for some of the most achingly gorgeous melodies in the history of music.

...and it actually happens too.
― Siegbran, dinsdag 22 maart 2011 20:58 (1 hour ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink
?
― Hyper Rescue Troop (Shakey Mo Collier), dinsdag 22 maart 2011 20:59 (1 hour ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink
Siegban
― pc-ness pump (lpz), dinsdag 22 maart 2011 21:17 (1 hour ago) Bookmark

Geir is hardly indicative of the ridiculousness tbh

this is generally me too actually, but I don't think this principle is one worth defending - think more it's one to be overcome personally, as it places one's own pleasure above all

OTM. I'm in the same spot.

Geirbomb was more of a blip, we're onto Wagner now dontchaknow

"it's a bourgeois privilege to be able to overlook racism."

pretty sure the proletariat overlooks racism in music all the time, dunno where yr coming from with this

xpost Richard Wagner, not Robert Wagner, in case you get the two confused

(not a "what if my friends found out principle" since as been discussed elsewhere I don't have irl friends)

can't tell if this ^^ is lol or not but anyway my main question is-- aren't you a big darkthrone fan/apologist & aren't they somehow associated w/ "nazi metal" or otherwise a bit questionable? doesn't seem to gel w/ yr statement

went out to dinner the other night and our Mexican waiter was wearing a Burzum shirt ... didn't really know what to think.

jon, i always wanted to hear the instrumental stuff ever since hearing a piece at school i liked but couldn't remember what it was. Just never took to opera. Gonna see if its on spotify, thanks!

Dont believe any of this, sorry.

I dont have the energy to defend this idea, but it rings true with a majority of my musical heroes. It rings true in life as well. Sorry I am just nipping out to the pub with this terminally boring cunt who moans about foreigners all night.

this is generally me too actually, but I don't think this principle is one worth defending - think more it's one to be overcome personally, as it places one's own pleasure above all -

I can't conceive of any workable principle that this could be replaced with. the other options lead to a) censorship and b) never enjoying anything

xp

Aesthetic pleasure is a complex thing tho. It's pleasure, sure, but you're also engaging with a complex of ideas or discourses. I don't think you should avoid those ideas because they're uncomfortable or even sometimes repellent, but I don't think you shd look for "excuses" for the artist either.

this is probably this tenderest tune about beating up foreigners ever:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZy1sQl-JiY

ilxor

It was followed by their fourth album, Transilvanian Hunger, which was released in February 1994. This was Darkthrone's first album to have just two members, Nocturno Culto and Fenriz. The band would remain a duo from this point onwards. Transilvanian Hunger was characterized by a very "raw" or "low fidelity" recording style and musical simplicity. The album's release caused some controversy: some of its lyrics were written by the infamous Norwegian black metal musician Varg Vikernes, and its booklet contained the phrase "Norsk Arisk Black Metal", which translates into English as "Norwegian Aryan Black Metal".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darkthrone#Early_black_metal_years

ahhh okay right

I can't conceive of any workable principle that this could be replaced with. the other options lead to a) censorship and b) never enjoying anything

um, self-censorship is not only not a bad thing, but it's something everyone does all the time anyway by virtue of having things that they "like" and "dislike"

agree with Noodle that "pleasure" is probably a mischaracterization too. To go back to Death Certificate, there are plenty of distinctly UNpleasant things about listening to it that are nonetheless worthwhile, as the album raises a number of questions, paradoxes, contradictions that are important to wrestle with (like "gee I wonder why homophobia really is so prevalent in the black community of early 90s US, hmmmmm. maybe I can learn something useful by pondering this question")

xp

I didn't say self-censorship Dan

the other options lead to a) censorship and b) never enjoying anything

not even remotely true! what you seem to advocate is throwing up your hands and saying "whelp...I dig it, so who gives a shit what the content is, or who might be impacted by it*, or what the effect of privileging aesthetics over all is on broader cultural discourse. the other options lead to a more complex dialogue with art that this surface-only "if it sounds good, I dig it" which I think is noxious, privileged stuff

(it's not an innate virtue, either; it's just something everyone does already, for entirely idiosyncratic subjective reasons, so I don't see why holding it up as a potential bugbear in order to shame someone into listening to a racist is a useful thing to do)

xp: lol then perhaps you are not actually understanding aero's post

Aesthetic pleasure is a complex thing tho. It's pleasure, sure, but you're also engaging with a complex of ideas or discourses.

Yeah, this. I try to avoid results-based criticism, but who knows? Maybe I do it. I've had to deal with my own revulsion this week at The Singles Jukebox, where we're reviewing a bunch of old Nate Dogg collaborations with Snoop and Dre which, after several years' distance, still sound as clumsy as they did in 1993. So dismissing the misogyny was even easier.

And what's wrong with self-censorship?

whoops -- this was covered already

and yeah deciding you don't want to listen to something because its politics are icky doesn't "lead to censorship" on any planet I've visited

"it's a bourgeois privilege to be able to overlook racism."

I always feel it's awfully bourgeois to worry about bourgeois privilege.

Anyway, Nazi metal and Wagner are two different things to me. Nazi metal is just ridiculous; the Nazis would have hated such entartete shreck and any German nationalist venerating the Nazis is even stupider than his grandparents, assuming they were Nazis, of course. Wagner's celebration and romanticisation of Germanic folklore is no more blameworthy than the Jews holding on to their culture and folklore (or any ppl doing so for that matter) and I have a smidgen of sympathy for the Germans in the 19th century (though, to be quite clear, not for any anti-semitism); the Italians, the French, the English, heck, even the Spanish could be admired but, apart from a few left-handed compliments from Tacitus, early German history and folklore was supposedly the history of barbarians who destroyed Rome. Germans weren't supposed to have much to be all that proud of and the sooner they adopted French or Italian ways, the better. That they tended, like pretty much everyone else, to take pride in their heritage in a way that denigrated people not from their 'tribe' is deplorable but no more so than most other countries.

That said, Wagner isn't even in my top five 19th century German composers.

If people decide they don't want to listen to something because of its content, that is not censorship; that is supply/demand.

If an external actor is keeping you from listening to something because of its content, that is censorship.

I don't see anywhere where aero is advocating having a board set up that polices people's music/musicians for offensive; I do see him saying "I think it's a good idea to reflect on the source".

what I was getting at was that the alternatives - refusing to commercially support or read/listen to/watch anything that is morally questionable - if carried to their logical conclusions, result in some very, VERY undesirable scenarios. On the one hand, if everyone adopts this position or is enforced to adopt this position, um great we are living in a police state where ideas are forbidden. awesome. Similarly, if you start parsing who/what institutions hold/support beliefs you disagree with, pretty quickly you find that this will preclude you from engaging with the vast majority of art. Most of it, at one time or another, has passed through the hands or bank accounts of those with ideas you disagree with.

xp

btw my own reaction to death certificate when it came out was "well, shit - my favorite rapper seems kinda like a dick now," not "this anti-semitism is really complex"

"whelp...I dig it, so who gives a shit what the content is, or who might be impacted by it*,

lol come on dude

Michael White wow you'll jump through any hoop to excuse Wagner's anti-semitism, won't you?

btw Police For Offensive is the name of my white-hating minimal techno side project

On the one hand, if everyone adopts this position or is enforced to adopt this position

can you spot where you are making a ridiculous, unwarranted logical leap? (HINT: it is here or is enforced to adopt this position)

lol come on dude

dude even though I know you & me are like nearly identical animals politically afaik that really does sound like what you're saying to me

One of the problems with 19th Century Nationalism is that it comes generally out of an Enlightment culture. It would be one thing to be an anti-Semite in 13th Century Europe where the prejudice was so ingrained as to be almost unnoticeable as a prejudice, and quite another thing to be Wanger and to have friends telling you to your face that your prejudices are idiotic and evil and going "hey ho" anyway.

and yeah deciding you don't want to listen to something because its politics are icky doesn't "lead to censorship" on any planet I've visited

Not to engage with a work of art because its connections or associations is precisely what I don't like about ppl like the Nazis. "We can't like Mendelssohn - he's Jewish," isn't music criticism, it's just categorical refusal based on broad prejudice. I prefer to judge the art on its merits and if I have to castigate the artist for being a doofus or worse, so be it; the work, if good, will long outlast the artist.

can you spot where you are making a ridiculous, unwarranted logical leap? (HINT: it is here or is enforced to adopt this position)

as soon as you say it's okay to ban ideas, this is the road you're heading down

pretty quickly you find that this will preclude you from engaging with the vast majority of art.

I wanna bee 1000% real with this: I think it's more important that people respect one another than for me to have engagement with any art no matter how great, and I feel that saying "these guys music is kinda good but you know what fuck them they're nazis" is a more positive gesture culturally than "these guys are nazis but I enjoy their music so I'll put that aside"

There is a categorical, non-negligible difference between "I don't want to engage with this because this person is of a particular ethnicity/gender/sexual orientation" and "I do not want to support an artist who is championing my extermination/oppression".

I dunno DJP it's a slippery slope lol

Michael White wow you'll jump through any hoop to excuse Wagner's anti-semitism, won't you?

I'm not even a big fan of Wagner's! I just think the devil is in the details not in broad, sweeping judgments.

Anyway, shouldn't we leave this all to Nietzsche contra Wagner?

but not non-negotiable. I think it's my duty to explain my responses to offensive material; however, I wouldn't begrudge someone else for not bothering.

xpost to Dan

(@djp that was a joek btw)

unless I run out and buy the entire Skr3wdriver catalog we're going to have thoughtcrime legislation within the week

but not non-negotiable. I think it's my duty to explain my responses to offensive material; however, I wouldn't begrudge someone else for not bothering.

I don't think either aero or I have said anything remotely to the contrary of this!

Or at least I haven't; aero came close.

part of my rancor on this is that i routinely have the experience of starting to like a metal band and then finding a picture of them & oh guess what swastika tattoos. which does not make me try to arrive at an aesthetic that will allow me to enjoy & support their nazi music. it makes me think "fuck this, there's other music to like, I don't need this in my head/heart." garbage in garbage out imo and my lifelong goal is to become a decent person, and I think step one toward that is avoiding the intake of hateful crap.

dude even though I know you & me are like nearly identical animals politically afaik that really does sound like what you're saying to me

no I'm saying you should engage with a work and if it sucks dismiss it - but if it's interesting and challenging and absorbing then hey yes you should think about why that is. I'm not on some popist "lol it sounds great I love it who cares what it is/where it comes from/what the context is!". you're kinda just being insulting with that shit.

xp

lol Shakey, how do you think we are identifying the racists here

"oh that band is from Montana, seems fishy..."

come on

I think it's more important that people respect one another than for me to have engagement with any art no matter how great

I know you hate bringin yr dayjob into things, but this is a very... odd position for a professional artist to take.

gotta go but it just occurred to me when someone asked for good "Wagner substitutes", besides Bruckner I should have piped up about Liszt's 13 Symphonic Poems; Wanger quarried many many of the musical building blocks for his mature operas from these (and a lot of the other blocks from... wait for it... Mendelssohn!) and good grief we even talked abt Liszt a bunch and it didn't come to me.

anyway, I'm out, going to see Agalloch tonight!

I don't see anywhere where aero is advocating having a board set up that polices people's music/musicians for offensive

This is pretty much what ILM is tbqf.

^^ was gonna say

which does not make me try to arrive at an aesthetic that will allow me to enjoy & support their nazi music.

maybe you should think about why you were attracted to music made by nazis in the first place lol - like maybe there's something valuable for you to learn by considering, y'know, what you have in common with them

"these guys are nazis but I enjoy their music so I'll put that aside"

also nowhere have I said anything should be put aside - if it's in the work, and the work is good, it should be dealt with and acknowledged

if it overwhelms the work and poisons it, then the work isn't any good and isn't worth your time

the thing is, unless it is excoriating Nazism, I will not find the work to be good

I can appreciate and enjoy fictional, non-reality based fascism because in my mind you are all little puppets for me to play with anyway, but when you start linking to actual historical atrocities in an approving "thumbs up! :-)" manner, I get off the bus.

For some people its very presence in the work is probably sufficiently overwhelming xp

It's not like there's this objective scale of "good <--------> not good," and you weigh it on there and THEN deal with the Nazi stuff.

look this is precisely why these debates about Dick Wanger are good and healthy and interesting - on the one hand there are people who cannot stand his work, the associations are too strong, the implications of anti-semitism in his work too much in the foreground, they ruin it. But others, on this very thread even, can argue against this and delineate how it ISN'T in the work, how the themes and ideas in it can be effectively separated from Wanger's personal views and the music can be enjoyed on a level that has nothing to do with anti-semitism. It comes down to a battle of aesthetics, of interpretation, and this is okay - it is productive to have these arguments. I don't really see how it can be any other way. But as soon as you start saying WAGNER'S MUSIC IS ANTISEMITIC AND SHOULD NOT BE PERFORMED you are on the way to sharing some very unsavory company, far worse than the kind you find in open societies.

Wagner did nothing wrong apart from being enjoyed a lot by Adolf Hitler after his death.

the thing is, unless it is excoriating Nazism, I will not find the work to be good

that's all fine and good, a line in the sand and one I agree with (I can't really think of any explicitly pro-Nazi works I've found to be engaging. I mean Triumph of the Will is fascinating in an academic sense, but I don't really think it's any good. It's clumsy as fuck).

But this is just one line among many. and is also quite a different line from refusing to listen to/read/watch works by people who were privately racist/sexist/homophobic but managed to keep it out of their work

you are saying wagners anti-Semitism is "nothing wrong?

xp to geir

dnftt

XP I suppose it was, but wasn't virtually everyone in Europe an anti-Semitist in the 19th century?

guys can we not

(I continue to be amazed, btw, by the fact that Geir has never been sb'd)

Anyway

Geir stop fucking up this thread. Seriously.

Oh, not the "he likes melody and doesn't care about rhythm so he must be a racist" again.

But really... There is absolutely nothing wrong about Wagner at all. Except Hitler loved him 50 years later. Which he couldn't really help.

http://www.mineralatlas.com/mineral%20photos/A/antimony158a.jpg

Just like it is also wrong to give Nitzsche the blame for some fucked up thoughts by a sick German painter 50 years later as well.

what does Ray Nitschke have to do with this

Ha, I was gonna say, I always liked Nitzche's keyboard playing with Neil Young.

Neil why did you love a Nazi so much you wrote this beautiful song about him

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6OaS3WvABs

hahah

I believe nobody has ever blamed Jack Nitzche of being a nazi... :)
Friedrich though....

goddamnit! thread went way downhill again after shakey scared off aero

i leave work with an interesting discussion going on, log on 3 hours later and find out it's all gone to hell :/

it went all geir hongro

"(I continue to be amazed, btw, by the fact that Geir has never been sb'd)"

Pretty sure he has been actually.

only once. Some were sb'd 3 or 4 times i think

I guess on the upside we got some pretty good intelligent debate...and the other stuff...so, yknow...it at least delivered on both fronts.

I actually just had somewhere to get to

But as soon as you start saying WAGNER'S MUSIC IS ANTISEMITIC AND SHOULD NOT BE PERFORMED you are on the way to sharing some very unsavory company, far worse than the kind you find in open societies.

no, I disagree strongly with this. if saying something "should not" be performed were actually the same as saying "there should be a law against it," your point might stand. there are all sorts of things I think people shouldn't do which they have a perfect right to do. if we were discussing somebody's right to play or hear something, that would be an entirely different discussion.

As to yr other point I don't think there are many day jobs that aren't less important than furthering the cause of human good, not that there's usually much of a choice. But I think forcing benign readings onto Wagner is like...really? anybody can read the libretto to Siegfried & see what's going on. no shortage of art that isn't by a guy who wrote "Jewishness In Music," so fuck him.

counterpoint: opera is, if not an out-and-out 'dead' artform, then certainly one whose best days are behind it and whose appeal is in some irreducible sense 'historical'; therefore, one should take that history at face value and listen to the 'great artists' who were significant in the genre's development, even if they were hateful or bad people by our standards, because anything else is a falsification.

(less a 'benign reading' of Wagner than a decadent reading of European opera, I guess)

Opera is as alive as ever, man, and probably more accessible too imo

I was gonna say

completely ignores the emotional charge of Wagner - art stays alive. We can historicise away - it's easy - but it's dodging the energy and effects on many listeners of eg the Prelude and Liebestod. The wouldn't be quite so much fire in the discussion if this were just about someone 'important' but not so connected to the emotional sound-world of now (Wagner influence in film soundtracks?).

But really... There is absolutely nothing wrong about Wagner at all. Except Hitler loved him 50 years later. Which he couldn't really help.

"As a virulent anti-semitic nationalist, I am shocked and appalled that this virulent anti-semitic nationalist loves my music." - Wagner's ghost, 1933

It's okay to love the "Liebestod" when Buñuel used it cos he was taking the piss.

Also want to add that ppl shouldn't be treating 19th-century anti-semitism like it's one thing, or universal, or static: judging by what I read in essay linked above, W is far beyond the polite shitness that seems pretty commonplace.

Exactly! As has been noted, Nietzsche broke with Wagner over the latter's anti-Semitism, George Eliot wrote a major novel about it, it was by no means a default 19th Century fact of life. The fact that there were more racists and the upper levels of society were freer to express their racism doesn't mean that it was some banal unchallenged non-belief. It was the preserve of scumbags.

Why are these always the most popular threads?

Dunno, start a thread about it.

POLL: why are these always the most popular threads?

1. It's an interesting, complicated topic.
2. Clusterfuck!

ow man, wagner was an anti-semite? why does ilx want to spoil everything for me?

:(

POLL: why are these always the most popular threads?

1. It's an interesting, complicated topic. there's only one way to find out..
2. Clusterfuck!

xps

Right - in Victorian Britain, there's Eliot & Browning as positively philo-semitic, Disraeli of course, & Dickens going out of his way to sort things out after falling that way himself with Fagin.

But maybe there's some special reason it's more ok in Germany.

POLL: why are these always the most popular threads?

Because fans of disco and other corporate manufactured music love using racism and homophobia to defend their corporate taste.

completely ignores the emotional charge of Wagner - art stays alive. We can historicise away - it's easy - but it's dodging the energy and effects on many listeners of eg the Prelude and Liebestod. The wouldn't be quite so much fire in the discussion if this were just about someone 'important' but not so connected to the emotional sound-world of now (Wagner influence in film soundtracks?).

― portrait of velleity (woof), Wednesday, March 23, 2011 12:06 PM (50 minutes ago) Bookmark

(overuse of word "particular" there meant, again, not as handwaving moral relativism, but because of my sorta-hegelian views on great art as a collective achievement that draws on the resources of an entire culture — in this case, one thoroughly pervaded with ugliness and racism and sexism and imperialism and other things that all of us in the 21st century are still dealing with the repercussions of)

lol I was posting "Why?" and you xposted me with the answer

spooky

I very much acknowledge both the influence and the "emotional charge of Wagner", and I think it is important to listen to his music and to feel that rush and then to step back and say "okay, this amazing and influential and still very-much-alive thing was the product of a raging anti-semite working in a particular cultural milieu for a particular audience" — rather than e.g. "let's find someone else who sounds kinda like Wagner but was a better person, that way we can listen to them with a clean conscience"

Very much agree with that. I'll take Wagner as he is, knowing that he was not a Nazi, and that listening to him is 'complicated'; just like I'll listen to Bach canatatas and oratorios while finding much of the theology expressed in them distasteful to some extent (and there's anti-semitism in those too).

Spot the odd one out in this list: Richard Strauss, Orff, Canteloube, Respighi, Stravinsky, Prokofiev, Hindemith, Wagner.

I mean, I feel like there is a temptation to make this into some sort of hypothetical "given the choice between a world without Wagner and a world without anti-semitism, which would you pick?" — and of course, anyone with a conscience is gonna take the latter eight days a week. but that's not that choice we're given. because both Wagner and the historical moment of his anti-semitism belong to the past (this is what I meant by calling opera a dead/historical artform, as opposed to very-much-alive-and-kicking homophobic rap or w/e) — you can't undo any of it, you can't sacrifice art to change history, all you can try to do is understand it.

ok, I took your earlier post as saying that opera (hence Wagner) exists mostly in/as history, so we can treat operas as historical cultural productions, turn them into study-objects - contextualise, analyse etc. I'm closer to agreeing with that 'feeling the rush' stage built in (and I think ppl are doing this to an extent on the thread), but in Wagner's case the historical questions won't sit in quarantine - the aesthetics of Romantic nationalism, the varieties of anti-semitism etc etc. They seem like live arguments to me, and you can't museum-case them.

definitely agree that they should not be museum-cased, but I don't know that I would go so far as to call them "live arguments" either — like, sometimes when you look at history, you see that a debate has already run its course, one side won and the other lost — you can't put the genie of nationalism/Romanticism/fascism/etc. back in the bottle, y'know? it's sad and painful and frustrating (at least it is for me) to see injustices and suffering that you are powerless to remedy; but again, it's just the nature of the beast.

but I think we are basically on the same page (study the past, criticize it, learn from it, don't allow its mistakes to be repeated) and just quibbling over terms.

Because fans of disco and other corporate manufactured music love using racism and homophobia to defend their corporate taste.

i feel like geir's been halfway reasonable itt until now-- not even gonna touch this one, tho

i elected to pass it over in silence

Just wanted to chime in and say I don't think this thread is a cluster fuck at all, it's been ready interesting and esp would like to thank the ppl that really know classical and wagner on the thread, it's been real educational. I feel like any thread that gets long is called a cluster fuck by default sometimes

I know I shou;dn't, but fuck it.

Because fans of disco and other corporate manufactured music love using racism and homophobia to defend their corporate taste.

How is disco anymore corporate than smooth melodic FM pop you enormous Shrek-alike moron?