Rolling 2011 thread where I buy and listen to jazz albums for the first time ever

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So, I've never been a jazz listener. Always reflexively avoided the genre out of presumed dislike for traditional bop/swing styles, as well as jazz being such a huge, amorphous beast of a genre with so many iterations that it's seemed a challenge to ever approach.

The closest I've come to jazz thus far is owning a few common jazz albums from maybe 2002-04 era. I had vinyl copies of A Love Supreme, Sketches of Spain and a couple others I can't remember. Sold 'em off around 2004-05 because I never played them. Honestly, though, I don't think I really gave them a shot. Too busy listening to other genres.

There are at least two reasons I'm going to start listening to and exploring jazz in 2011.

1. I intend to slow down my buying habits in 2011, buy fewer new releases,, and listen to a fewer # of older records more often. Consider it a slow listening movement in general. I believe taking the time to play jazz albums all the way through, over and over, really dissecting them, will allow me a chance to step back from current releases and more pop-oriented genres, listen to music at my own pace, and probably help out my pocketbook.

2. I've found something to love in every genre I've explored thus far, and there's no reason to think jazz is any different. For example, I didn't pay any attention to metal in 2006-07. About three years ago I made a conscious effort to explore the genre. Three years later, I've found a LOT to like in the genre, some stuff I dislike as well, and generally feel like I have a good grasp on what makes a metal album "work" for me.

I'm hoping this can be a rolling "ilxor gets into jazz" thread where I buy jazz albums over the course of the year (maybe one or two a week, maybe one every two weeks, who knows?), listen to them a few times, post my thoughts and impressions, etc. I would LOVE to get recommendations from you guys based on what I'm enjoying (and not enjoying) -- hoping the seasoned ilx jazz listeners can point me in the right direction.

Keep in mind I'm approaching jazz from the standpoint of loving stuff like krautrock, psych rock, "weird" folky stuff that gets a bit drone-y at times. Stuff that moves and breathes and evolves slowly as it unfolds. Not sure if that means my ear will prefer certain jazz stuff, but as full disclosure, that's where I'm coming from.

If I were to set a goal for myself in 2011, I'd like to get a basic grasp on what I like and dislike in the jazz genre, figure out what I really enjoy most, and then follow those paths and keep exploring in the coming years as I feel compelled to do so.

Stuff I picked up tonight (never heard any of these before, will listen soon):

Miles Davis - Nefertiti
Miles Davis - On the Corner
Sun Ra - The Heliocentric Worlds of Sun Ra, Volume One

ilxor, Thursday, 20 January 2011 03:29 (3 years ago) Permalink

those are all fucking great records. godspeed.

tylerw, Thursday, 20 January 2011 03:31 (3 years ago) Permalink

Btw, one loose rule I'd like to set for myself is that I'm going to avoid reading press/reviews of various albums until I've listened to them and digested the sounds within a good bit. I have no clue what Nefertiti sounds like, whether it's considered a "good" Miles album, or how it compares to his other work, or that of his contemporaries.

Happy to take recommendations, as stated upthread, based on what I find myself liking, though.

ilxor, Thursday, 20 January 2011 03:32 (3 years ago) Permalink

On The Corner is my favorite jazz album (and one of my favorite albums, period) ever made. Good luck, ilxor.

xhuxk, Thursday, 20 January 2011 04:11 (3 years ago) Permalink

So, I've played On the Corner once through, and I'd like to give it a couple more spins to process before I post my thoughts. But, I thought I'd share what my little one had to say (she's 8 yrs old, fwiw).

Upon hearing a few minutes of "Helen Butte" this morning: "This is a weird song -- it sounds like they're all going crazy all at once!"

Upon seeing the cover artwork: "And they all look like they're going crazy, too!"

ilxor, Thursday, 20 January 2011 14:40 (3 years ago) Permalink

My daughter (16 months old) goes bananas when she hears "Black Satin" -- tries to keep up with the handclaps, loses balance, falls over, smiles the whole time.

Andy K, Thursday, 20 January 2011 14:49 (3 years ago) Permalink

ornette coleman's 'ornette!' LP is fantastic and fun to listen to, it doesn't seem like a chore at all, which i find with a lot of jazz

and my favourite is carla bley and paul haines' 3LP 'escalator over the hill' -even outside of jazz its my favourite record. although it's probably not the best starting point at all. carla bley is awesome anyway.

also check out coleman hawkins and jelly roll morton.

jumpskins, Thursday, 20 January 2011 14:49 (3 years ago) Permalink

That's adorable! xp

Thanks for the recommendations, I definitely have Ornette bookmarked in my mind as someone to get around to eventually; I've heard of Coleman Hawkins, will keep him in mind as well. Haven't heard of the others at all, but happy to pick something up if I run across an interesting looking record by any of them. Cheers!

ilxor, Thursday, 20 January 2011 14:52 (3 years ago) Permalink

based on yr likes u gotta get some pharoah sanders records, bro

call all destroyer, Thursday, 20 January 2011 14:54 (3 years ago) Permalink

I saw a Pharaoh Sanders record yesterday, thought about grabbing it... Black something? Hmmmmmm.

ilxor, Thursday, 20 January 2011 14:56 (3 years ago) Permalink

Black Unity, right.

ilxor, Thursday, 20 January 2011 14:56 (3 years ago) Permalink

i can recommend you stuff anytime ilxor. Pity you cant get spotify as its got an amazing selection of jazz inc most blue note stuff.

Algerian Goalkeeper, Thursday, 20 January 2011 14:56 (3 years ago) Permalink

hell, you could spend all year just digging into Miles and his sidemen

some fave psychedelic jazz:

Miles Davis at Fillmore: Live at the Fillmore East
Pharoah Sanders - Karma (xpost destroyer)
Charles Mingus - The Black Saint and the Sinner Lady

Mangrove Earthshoe (herb albert), Thursday, 20 January 2011 14:58 (3 years ago) Permalink

yeah i can recommend "tauhid," "karma," and "thembi" at minimum but you'd probably dig anything from the 60s-early 70s of his.

call all destroyer, Thursday, 20 January 2011 14:59 (3 years ago) Permalink

Charles Mingus - The Black Saint and the Sinner Lady

yeah this is an absolute must

call all destroyer, Thursday, 20 January 2011 15:00 (3 years ago) Permalink

Excellent -- thanks everyone, this is great.

That Mingus record in particular is one I've heard fantastic things about. Will def pick up the first time I see it for a reasonable price.

ilxor, Thursday, 20 January 2011 15:01 (3 years ago) Permalink

i think you should just post your daughter's reviews of the jazz canon as they occur

normal_fantasy-unicorns (contenderizer), Thursday, 20 January 2011 15:05 (3 years ago) Permalink

Knowing what you like, Pharaoh Sanders is the way to go. V groovy. You might also want to try Alice Coltrane.

ergonomically chromium plated fish slice (La Lechera), Thursday, 20 January 2011 15:07 (3 years ago) Permalink

If you're looking for more noisy modern stuff, you might like The Thing or any project involving Mats Gustaffson (horn) or Paal Nilsson Love (drums) (not sure if I spelled those right but w/e)

ergonomically chromium plated fish slice (La Lechera), Thursday, 20 January 2011 15:09 (3 years ago) Permalink

Definitely will check out Coltranes (John and Alice both) in 2011.

ilxor, Thursday, 20 January 2011 15:09 (3 years ago) Permalink

i envy you listening to Karma for the first time

ergonomically chromium plated fish slice (La Lechera), Thursday, 20 January 2011 15:10 (3 years ago) Permalink

i think you should just post your daughter's reviews of the jazz canon as they occur

Will do. :)

I do like the Mats Gustaffson stuff I've heard, though my knowledge is limited to the collaborative records he did with Sonic Youth (that Patti Smith/Hidros 3 thing), Jim O'Rourke and Yoshimi.

ilxor, Thursday, 20 January 2011 15:10 (3 years ago) Permalink

Good luck ilxor! And don't look at bop as boring and trad, cos some of that stuff is total dynamite.

seminal fuiud (NickB), Thursday, 20 January 2011 15:11 (3 years ago) Permalink

I have an Anthony Braxton collaborative album with Wolf Eyes and it's not really my thing (though as time goes on, I'm increasingly finding myself less into Wolf Eyes and other harshly noisy stuff, so that may be the issue).

ilxor, Thursday, 20 January 2011 15:11 (3 years ago) Permalink

And don't look at bop as boring and trad, cos some of that stuff is total dynamite.

I'll definitely poke around in all corners. Happy to take recommendations, of course.

ilxor, Thursday, 20 January 2011 15:12 (3 years ago) Permalink

The first jazz records I really got into:

Kenny Burrell and John Coltrane
Thelonious Monk - Monk's Music
Art Blakey - Caravan
Miles Davis - Cookin' (try to get a non-RVG edition if you can)
Wes Montgomery - The Incredible Jazz Guitar
Herbie Hancock - Takin' Off

All very much of a certain style/period, but all good. Not sure how I picked them, maybe just via record store listening stations? I feel like those are probably good starter jazz records since they appealed to me as a teenager mostly into rock and hip-hop (though also raised with some classical).

hey boys, suppers on me, our video just went bacterial (Hurting 2), Thursday, 20 January 2011 15:20 (3 years ago) Permalink

Blue Note in the 1960s is the greatest record label ever. Totally unfuckwithable!

Algerian Goalkeeper, Thursday, 20 January 2011 15:24 (3 years ago) Permalink

(try to get a non-RVG edition if you can)

Why so?

Should I avoid most any RVG-issued stuff I come across, or just this album?

ilxor, Thursday, 20 January 2011 15:25 (3 years ago) Permalink

rvg reissues are generally avoided if possible ... one really obvious drawback to having an old man w/ shot ears remastering things is that he doesnt hear very well

*gets the power* (deej), Thursday, 20 January 2011 15:29 (3 years ago) Permalink

lots of good suggestions here. esp pharoah sanders, john & alice coltrane, 70s miles, black saint and the sinner lady.

jazz things i've likes, as a non-jazz person:

charles mingus - mingus ah um and live at antibes '60
mingus & ellington - money jungle
art blakey - moanin'
sun ra - angels and demons at play
don cherry - brown rice

normal_fantasy-unicorns (contenderizer), Thursday, 20 January 2011 15:34 (3 years ago) Permalink

cool thread, I know nothing at all about (non-vocal) jazz but I have recently liked:

Ahmad Jamal At The Pershing, But Not For Me
Mary Lou Williams Black Christ of the Andes

will definitely check out some of the recommendations here (though in general whenever I try to get into jazz seriously I end up really bored...)

The Brainwasher, Thursday, 20 January 2011 15:40 (3 years ago) Permalink

Re Pharoah Sanders: Don't start with Black Unity as it's one long song. Start with Tauhid or Jewels of Thought or Thembi, all of which are in the same style but have short, discrete pieces.

Re jazz for little kids: Kids like Thelonious Monk - without being at all disrespectful, the dude was a fucking genius and all, but the way he plays the piano is very Muppet-ish and kids will smile and dance around. They may also like Ornette Coleman's Atlantic recordings (The Shape of Jazz to Come, This is Our Music, and Change of the Century are the proper entry points) for similar reasons - a kind of cartoonish effervescence.

that's not funny. (unperson), Thursday, 20 January 2011 15:45 (3 years ago) Permalink

Keep in mind I'm approaching jazz from the standpoint of loving stuff like krautrock, psych rock, "weird" folky stuff that gets a bit drone-y at times. Stuff that moves and breathes and evolves slowly as it unfolds. Not sure if that means my ear will prefer certain jazz stuff, but as full disclosure, that's where I'm coming from.

With background like that, some jazz should appeal to you right away - Pharoah, Sun Ra, Strata East 'spiritual' stuff - but the main current through the 50s - 70s may elude you completely. There is something - or a lot of somethings - about Bop derived jazz that is just not translatable, if your taste was formed by rock/ pop.

If you start looking for what's not there - tunes, emotional expressiveness, rhythmic excitement, you'll hear instead twiddley-ness, lack of affect and stuff that's rhythmically much too complicated to dance to, and that taps the ride cymbal like a hyperactive toddler. It'll probably just annoy, as it does a lot of people.

There is nothing that says you have to like it of course: there's a lot of Jazz you probably will like, even if the Bop continuum leaves you cold, but. like it or not, it is that which all the other streams play off.

What to do?

Mingus or Monk might be better places to start than Miles or 'Trane - Mingus is bluesier, and Mingus Ah Um rocks, and Monk has tunes that aren't 'I Got Rhythm' with a whole bunch of extra chords. Eric Dolphy's 'Out To Lunch' and Oliver Nelson's 'Blues and the Abstract Truth' (Dolphy's in there too).

sonofstan, Thursday, 20 January 2011 15:48 (3 years ago) Permalink

jazz forms the basis for my understanding of genre & criticism in a weird way -- the amg guide to jazz was probably the first music crit i eve read (thnx ron wynn!) and for a long time i had more 'contextual knowledge' of that genre than any other ... so its hard for me to recommend stuff cuz a lot of it is like, sun ra made sense to me in the context of having listened to lots of duke & basie & not really connecting that much w/ certain styles of free jazz, coltrane's later stuff makes more sense to me having known his stuff w/ miles, etc ... like each album you hear helps create a constellation that becomes more fleshed out over time ... the other thing is that seeing a great live performance will help u understand jazz x1000 than if u just listen to 'historical albums' or w/e

anyway, point is no one ever mentions fats navarro but his double-disc w/ tadd dameron is awesome, from the era just before jazz artists could record >3 min songs

*gets the power* (deej), Thursday, 20 January 2011 15:50 (3 years ago) Permalink

Re Pharoah Sanders: Don't start with Black Unity as it's one long song. Start with Tauhid or Jewels of Thought or Thembi, all of which are in the same style but have short, discrete pieces.

it's funny that you say that. i'd say start with karma cuz it's (mostly) one long song, but it's such a fucking amazing song you won't even notice the lack of discretion.

normal_fantasy-unicorns (contenderizer), Thursday, 20 January 2011 15:51 (3 years ago) Permalink

Eric Dolphy's 'Out To Lunch' and Oliver Nelson's 'Blues and the Abstract Truth' (Dolphy's in there too).

yeah, this

normal_fantasy-unicorns (contenderizer), Thursday, 20 January 2011 15:52 (3 years ago) Permalink

im trying to 'get along better' w ilxors at the moment but suffice 2 say that in an older era i would rmde at ppl recommending 'rock-friendly' jazz records & saying 'on the corner' is the best jazz album ever

but whatever way gets u in i guess

*gets the power* (deej), Thursday, 20 January 2011 15:54 (3 years ago) Permalink

^ how to ryde in like 40 words

normal_fantasy-unicorns (contenderizer), Thursday, 20 January 2011 15:56 (3 years ago) Permalink

The first jazz records I really got into:

Miles Davis - In A Silent Way
Lou Donaldson - Blues Walk
Tony Williams - Spring

From the guys who brought you Fay Weldon (Eazy), Thursday, 20 January 2011 15:58 (3 years ago) Permalink

Things I started out with:

Compilations of Charlie Parker & Dizzy Gillespie
John Coltrane - Coltrane
Miles Davis - Kind of Blue, Sketches of Spain, In A Silent Way
Pharoah Sanders - Tauhid
Sun Ra - Strange Celestial Road
Last Exit - Iron Path

seminal fuiud (NickB), Thursday, 20 January 2011 15:59 (3 years ago) Permalink

Re Miles, I'd suggest In a Silent Way (xpost -- more ambient) and Jack Johnson (more rocking) as really accessible points of entry. Also, Herbie Hancock, Sextant and/or Crossings.

Lots of people very OTM on this thread!

Brad C., Thursday, 20 January 2011 16:00 (3 years ago) Permalink

'kind of blue' remains the one record i will never challop about. lol

perfect music basically

*gets the power* (deej), Thursday, 20 January 2011 16:01 (3 years ago) Permalink

im trying to 'get along better' w ilxors at the moment but suffice 2 say that in an older era i would rmde at ppl recommending 'rock-friendly' jazz records & saying 'on the corner' is the best jazz album ever

but whatever way gets u in i guess

Well, okay, you mentioned Fats Navarro (duly noted!) -- what else would you recommend?

I mentioned that I'm coming from a background in psych/drone, krautrock, offbeat folk, etc. because I can see some parallels between those genres and what I *think* I may enjoy in jazz record (though I've not listened to hardly any jazz yet, so it's hard to say).

Anyway, I didn't mention '80s-'00s hip-hop/rap and pop music in general because I see less of a connection between jazz and those genres in general, but I like plenty of that stuff, too (you should know -- we turn up on the same threads a good bit). So, as someone who's as heavily invested in rap/hip-hop as you are, what jazz records (not necessarily "rock-influenced") do you fancy, and what's the appeal of the records you're into for someone who's also into rap music?

ilxor, Thursday, 20 January 2011 16:02 (3 years ago) Permalink

Btw, I owned Kind of Blue back in lolcollege days. Think I played it a couple times, saw it as a "traditional" jazz record but given I have basically zero knowledge of jazz theory/structure/etc. and wasn't invested in exploring the genre as a whole, I clearly need to hear it again with an open, more patient mind.

ilxor, Thursday, 20 January 2011 16:04 (3 years ago) Permalink

Btw, one loose rule I'd like to set for myself is that I'm going to avoid reading press/reviews of various albums until I've listened to them and digested the sounds within a good bit.

i don't know about this. you're bouncing to a huge & varied genre with no sense of context or history - i think that reading about the music would really aid in your enjoyment of some of these records. it can be overwhelming at first, but it'll all come together eventually (especially as you find musicians that speak to you and track down their other work, etc.).

bows don't kill people, arrows do (Jordan), Thursday, 20 January 2011 16:05 (3 years ago) Permalink

I mentioned that I'm coming from a background in psych/drone, krautrock, offbeat folk, etc.

You can do what I did as a teenager and get excited when you look at the track listing and see song lengths over 8:00.

From the guys who brought you Fay Weldon (Eazy), Thursday, 20 January 2011 16:08 (3 years ago) Permalink

aside from obvious ish like rappers sampling jazz, the real tradition that rap gets from jazz is the density of the ideas/messaging coming across over a short period of time that is simultaneously open for anyone to follow, but works as kind of an insider language for ppl steeped in the music. a lot of folks dont 'get' the jazz canon cuz they're missing the way it plays w/ melody/rhythm, that there's a 'language' going on -- a lot of the best instrumentalists are communicating thru a combination/balance of referentialism (both overt & subtle) with originality. original melodies, original ideas. its the kind of thing u develop an ear for by spending lots of time paying attention to different instrumentalists & beginning to understand their personalities

*gets the power* (deej), Thursday, 20 January 2011 16:09 (3 years ago) Permalink

deej 100% OTM re kind of blue.

see coltrane's giant steps, my favorite things and a love supreme for a few more "way too easy" classic that everybody owes themselves (not as effortlessly perfect as KOB, though).

plus yeah, take brad c.'s advice on early 70s herbie: mwandishi, crossings, thrust, headhunters.

thread is getting unweildy...

normal_fantasy-unicorns (contenderizer), Thursday, 20 January 2011 16:11 (3 years ago) Permalink

To clarify, I'm open to reading about the records I'm hearing, definitely. I think context is important. But as a first-time jazz listener, I'm curious to hear, say, On the Corner before reading a bunch of different critics' opinions and getting an impression of the album before I've heard it. Once I spin anything a couple times, I definitely plan to read up on its background and "importance" and context, etc. But I'd rather approach On the Corner for the first time without the background noise of "THIS IS MILES' [WHATEVER] PERIOD ALBUM AND IS VERY IMPORTANT FOR [XX] REASON AND THIS IS WHY IT IS GREAT" -- at least the first few times I hear something.

Think of it in the way lex reviews records -- trying to avoid reading other critics' comments before he forms his own impressions of any given record. I'd rather form my own opinions/tastes and get impressions without the critical consensus floating in the back of my head beforehand.

Does that make sense?

ilxor, Thursday, 20 January 2011 16:11 (3 years ago) Permalink

i think that for people with "rock ears", jazz with a lot of chord changes & harmonic complexity can be the toughest stuff to "hear" and get into. imo that's why the modal/drone-based/free stuff is most popular with non-jazz heads (also why kind of blue is so appealing, besides the amazing solos/vibe...it sounds like most people's idea of swinging modern jazz, with non-challenging changes).

bows don't kill people, arrows do (Jordan), Thursday, 20 January 2011 16:11 (3 years ago) Permalink

the real tradition that rap gets from jazz is the density of the ideas/messaging coming across over a short period of time that is simultaneously open for anyone to follow, but works as kind of an insider language for ppl steeped in the music.

― *gets the power* (deej), Thursday, January 20, 2011 8:09 AM (1 minute ago) Bookmark

boom

normal_fantasy-unicorns (contenderizer), Thursday, 20 January 2011 16:13 (3 years ago) Permalink

thread is getting unweildy...

I love it. Rest assured I'll be compiling a huge list of recommendations from these posts and keeping them in mind as I explore in the coming months. Thanks everyone!

ilxor, Thursday, 20 January 2011 16:14 (3 years ago) Permalink

that totally makes sense, but it's a different case since lex is already very familiar with the vocabulary and aesthetics of the genre. but whatevs, just jump in head-first and sort it all out later.

bows don't kill people, arrows do (Jordan), Thursday, 20 January 2011 16:14 (3 years ago) Permalink

im trying to 'get along better' w ilxors at the moment but suffice 2 say that in an older era i would rmde at ppl recommending 'rock-friendly' jazz records & saying 'on the corner' is the best jazz album ever

but whatever way gets u in i guess

― *gets the power* (deej), Thursday, January 20, 2011 10:54 AM Bookmark

Yeah. I mean tbh I'm not even sure what makes On The Corner a jazz record other than the names of the players on it; It sounds more like krautrock to me. Still a great record.

hey boys, suppers on me, our video just went bacterial (Hurting 2), Thursday, 20 January 2011 16:15 (3 years ago) Permalink

also there are already bunch of threads where people recommend all the classic records for first-time listeners, but i do look forward to your reactions coming at all this stuff for the first time.

bows don't kill people, arrows do (Jordan), Thursday, 20 January 2011 16:15 (3 years ago) Permalink

Btw, I owned Kind of Blue back in lolcollege days. Think I played it a couple times, saw it as a "traditional" jazz record but given I have basically zero knowledge of jazz theory/structure/etc. and wasn't invested in exploring the genre as a whole, I clearly need to hear it again with an open, more patient mind.

Take it easy on yrself - I don't think you need to worry too much about theory etc to enjoy Kind of Blue! It's all about mood and feeling, same thing with a lot of the records that got people into jazz.

seminal fuiud (NickB), Thursday, 20 January 2011 16:17 (3 years ago) Permalink

I mean tbh I'm not even sure what makes On The Corner a jazz record other than the names of the players on it; It sounds more like krautrock to me.

I will have more to say on this soon, but suffice to say from initial spins that I've gotten a similar impression.

ilxor, Thursday, 20 January 2011 16:17 (3 years ago) Permalink

If you like your hip-hop funny:

From the guys who brought you Fay Weldon (Eazy), Thursday, 20 January 2011 16:22 (3 years ago) Permalink

flopson, Thursday, 20 January 2011 16:51 (3 years ago) Permalink

I mean LOL okay but really, back to jazz, k?

ilxor, Thursday, 20 January 2011 16:59 (3 years ago) Permalink

john legend ftw

normal_fantasy-unicorns (contenderizer), Thursday, 20 January 2011 17:03 (3 years ago) Permalink

seminal fuiud (NickB), Thursday, 20 January 2011 17:03 (3 years ago) Permalink

Just a heads up, I've compiled all the artist/album recommendations to date and I've got 45 distinct albums, along with eight artists being namedropped without attachments to specific albums. I'll go shopping in the coming weeks, lots of listening, and post thoughts on various albums as I familiarize myself with them. Really good stuff, guys -- thanks!

ilxor, Thursday, 20 January 2011 17:39 (3 years ago) Permalink

Based on what you've said in this thread, my 2 absolute recommendations would be these two albums:


Joe Henderson featuring Alice Coltrane - The Elements


Herbie Hancock - Sextant

Both are kinda droney, kinda psychedelic early 70s albums with interesting electronic experimentation. If you like Miles' stuff from this era, you can't really go wrong with these two. The Elements is more organic, with some hippie flavour, cool electric violin playing, and even a bit of spoken word poetry (but not so much it would distract you from the instrumentalists). The Sextant is more electronic and experimental, with synths that are totally out there (especially on the first tune). Both are five star albums featuring some excellent performers at the height of their powers.

Tuomas, Friday, 21 January 2011 13:07 (3 years ago) Permalink

Whoops, sorry, the Elements pic is huge.

Tuomas, Friday, 21 January 2011 13:09 (3 years ago) Permalink

Thanks v. much for the recommendations, those look great!

I had my first big "HOOOOLY SHIT" moment this morning with a jazz record. Honestly, wasn't expecting it to hit so hard, or so soon. I'm not gonna say what record it was yet (I'll get to that in time) but suffice to say I'm thrilled.

ilxor, Friday, 21 January 2011 14:27 (3 years ago) Permalink

Another vote for Sextant - coming from a similar background to you, this was the first jazz album that made sense for me.

Can your monkey do the Bot? (seandalai), Friday, 21 January 2011 14:39 (3 years ago) Permalink

great thread, buncha albums mentioned so far that I need to hear too

Mangrove Earthshoe (herb albert), Friday, 21 January 2011 14:43 (3 years ago) Permalink

Other favourite albums that haven't been mentioned yet:

Miles Davis - Bitches Brew
Albert Ayler - Live in Greenwich Village
Ornette Coleman - Chappaqua Suite
Rahsaan Roland Kirk - Natural Black Inventions: Root Strata
The Mike Westbrook Concert Band - Marching Song

Maybe not essential, but if you're into 70s spiritual electronic jazz I'm very fond of Roland P. Young - Isophonic Boogie Woogie.

I'm looking forward to keeping up with this thread; my jazz knowledge is kind of patchy even within my favourite eras/styles and I've never really listened to much John Coltrane, Bill Evans, Art Ensemble of Chicago or Cecil Taylor for example, even though what I've heard has been fantastic. Also, some musicians have just never clicked with me and I'd like to try again, e.g. Eric Dolphy, Anthony Braxton.

Can your monkey do the Bot? (seandalai), Friday, 21 January 2011 14:50 (3 years ago) Permalink

Nice -- appreciate the recommendations! I used to have Bitches Brew on vinyl in college days, I actually brought it over to my wife's place one night, early 2006, one of our first dates -- we played it while we cooked dinner together. I sold off all my vinyl at some point that year (only about 40-50 records, probably) since CDs were cheaper, easier to find, portable, etc., but always meant to buy Bitches Brew again at some point. So, I'll do that.

I've never been sold on vinyl as an ideal format, needless to say. Sounds like a CD with an array of pops, skips and static depending on the age/condition of the record, and often at a higher price tag given the vinyl resurgence in the '00s. That's another discussion of course...

ilxor, Friday, 21 January 2011 15:01 (3 years ago) Permalink

Miles Davis - On the Corner (1972)

This is very dissimilar to what I think of as "jazz" (very broadly speaking) but doesn't come to me as a huge shock, given what I've heard anecdotally about this era's Miles Davis albums drawing from funk and similar touchstones. Before I heard this record, I could've be told this was an extended jam session from, say, Funkadelic or Can, and I wouldn't really bat an eye. Perhaps this record wouldn't be of interest to someone invested in more traditional/classic jazz styles, but it's served as a gentle (if not entirely representative) entry point to jazz given my background and interests in other genres.

On the Corner doesn't blow me away on first listen, but it sounds like a record that'll grow on me over time. There's a lot going on simultaneously in the mix (my daughter was OTM in saying "everyone's going crazy all at once") and my impression is that this record's all about the underlying groove, the repetitions that the rhythm section locks into immediately as the record starts, staying with these patterns for 10-15 minutes at a time, and accordingly letting Miles do his thing on the horn (I presume that's him!), which sounds scattershot and randomly deployed at times while the rhythm stays locked in, providing structure.

I've been able to get lost in this album not unlike a krautrock record (Can strikes me as a fair reference point). Once playing, the pieces don't drag or seem too long, instead tending to fly by quickly; yesterday I looked at the playing time thinking I was a couple minutes into "Helen Butte/Mr. Freedom X" and instead it was halfway over, double digit running time by then.

I take it this record is not a commonplace sound in the Miles catalogue, or within jazz in general, but I do enjoy this record a lot on initial spins. There's a groove to it all the way through, a swagger in its rhythmic step that keeps it engaging and lively for me, the novice jazz listener. I'm sure there's a method to the madness of Miles' horn playing that I'm not familiar with that I'll understand more fully at some point.

Rating: ✰✰✰✰ (out of possible 5 stars)

ilxor, Friday, 21 January 2011 16:11 (3 years ago) Permalink

You should listen to "Rated X" by Miles Davis off Get Up With It (which I think was On the Corner outtakes). It's incredible. Unfortunately all the versions on Youtube are weird remix things.

matt2, Friday, 21 January 2011 16:42 (3 years ago) Permalink

^^^glad we're finally getting around to discussion of some specific albums

the jazz community really hated OTC in general, Stanley Crouch still hates it

ex-heroin addict tricycle (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 21 January 2011 16:43 (3 years ago) Permalink

On the Corner doesn't blow me away on first listen, but it sounds like a record that'll grow on me over time.

I don't wanna go into it to the degree I could (I wrote a whole book on '70s Miles and OTC had its own chapter), but yeah, this is definitely true. I've been listening to it for about 20 years at this point and I still feel like I hear something new every time. And yeah, it's unique in Davis's catalog - nothing else he ever did, in the '70s or at any other point, sounds anything like it. Most of his other funk stuff is more trancey and relaxed (in the studio, anyway; live, the band was basically instrumental Westbound-era Funkadelic gone even more metal, plus horns). None of it is as twitchy or as ridiculously studio-manipulated as On the Corner.

that's not funny. (unperson), Friday, 21 January 2011 16:44 (3 years ago) Permalink

nowadays OTC is the canonical favorite of Miles' electric/funk period - which also includes Get Up With It, Big Fun, Agharta, Pangea, Tribute to Jack Johnson, In a Silent Way, and Bitches Brew (I may have even forgot one or two there). THere are some amazing youtube clips of the OTC era band (Pete Cosey!) floating around

ex-heroin addict tricycle (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 21 January 2011 16:45 (3 years ago) Permalink

unperson's right that OTC stands out from the other albums of the period though - it's more chopped up, more aggressive, without any of the real spacey/trancey stuff that would come to the fore on the other records

ex-heroin addict tricycle (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 21 January 2011 16:46 (3 years ago) Permalink

as ridiculously studio-manipulated as On the Corner

it's more chopped up

Sounds like it's time I read up a bit on how this album was actually created, then.

Duly noted re: "Rated X" and various notes on electric Miles, btw, I'll keep an eye out for that stuff. Thanks!

ilxor, Friday, 21 January 2011 16:47 (3 years ago) Permalink

same basic era not an OTC track btw (this popped up on Agharta/Pangea/Dark Magus iirc?)

ex-heroin addict tricycle (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 21 January 2011 16:48 (3 years ago) Permalink

Sounds like it's time I read up a bit on how this album was actually created, then.

Teo Macero, master of editing

ex-heroin addict tricycle (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 21 January 2011 16:48 (3 years ago) Permalink

Can we have a quick discussion on fidelity/sound quality and jazz CD reissues?

So, full disclosure, I picked up the Columbia Jazz Masterpieces CD version of On the Corner (the one that says "Digitally Remastered From The Original Analog Masters" across the top, has a blue border around the edges) and while I enjoyed it, the trumpet was very low in the mix and the sound seemed a bit muddy or flat. Now, I'd seen the newer reissues floating around before, so swung by another record shop a couple days later and grabbed the Columbia/Legacy reissue -- suddenly the mix seemed to take on new dimensions, the horns were brought up in the mix and I could close my eyes and actually hear the band playing in front of me, so to speak. It was a very noticeable difference!

I've already been told to avoid RVG reissues (saw a couple of these this week, didn't buy...) but what other reissues and/or labels should I keep an eye out for, or avoid?

A couple examples -- I've seen Coltrane stuff on Atlantic (Giant Steps and My Favorite Things, maybe?) in an original CD issue as well as a Rhino reissue in a cardboard-looking sleeve. I've seen Pharaoh Sanders and Alice Coltrane discs on Impulse in jewel cases, and in digipaks (I take it the digipaks are remastered versions, not just repackaged). And of course there's the Miles CD reissues I mentioned a second ago.

What's the best rule of thumb to follow here?

ilxor, Friday, 21 January 2011 16:55 (3 years ago) Permalink

Also seen Mingus and Monk original CD issues vs. reissues with bonus tracks. Seems like Columbia/Legacy does a good # of these?

ilxor, Friday, 21 January 2011 16:57 (3 years ago) Permalink

And the Teo Macero insane chopping/editing thing is what makes "Rated X" so great. Definitely check it out.

matt2, Friday, 21 January 2011 16:59 (3 years ago) Permalink

omg there are so many reissues of Miles' material, sorting through them all is a total clusterfuck

ex-heroin addict tricycle (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 21 January 2011 16:59 (3 years ago) Permalink

best rule of thumb for me re: jazz recs is to buy high quality vinyl reissues

ex-heroin addict tricycle (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 21 January 2011 16:59 (3 years ago) Permalink

think it's relevant to emphasize that what makes Macero's editing so amazing a lot of the time is how seamless it is - the juxtaposition of different takes/different material being cut together in a way that is not immediately apparent/jarring to the listener. really pretty revolutionary

ex-heroin addict tricycle (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 21 January 2011 17:01 (3 years ago) Permalink

in general, the miles legacy CDs are better than the "jazz masterpieces" i think. not just soundwise, but packaging, liners, etc.

tylerw, Friday, 21 January 2011 17:01 (3 years ago) Permalink

The "RVG Editions" of Blue Note titles were all done a few years ago, and sound really good to me. In recent years, though, Rudy Van Gelder (the original producer/engineer back in the 50s, and the source of the "RVG" title) has begun to suffer hearing loss, so his more recent remasters for the Prestige/Fantasy label are not as good as his earlier work. Fortunately, there's not actually that much you can do to or with what were originally two- or four-track recordings, so it's mostly just a matter of them being pushed through the louderizing machine, not making instruments disappear or anything.

The most recent batch of Miles Davis remasters (the ones in the clear plastic jewel cases as opposed to the 80s ones with the blue border, or the 90s ones with the brown border) have been done (or supervised) by Bob Belden, and they sound fantastic across the board. The 60s/70s stuff has been the most improved, to my ear. A lot of stuff pops out that was once buried in mud.

that's not funny. (unperson), Friday, 21 January 2011 17:03 (3 years ago) Permalink

Hey unperson, what was that Miles book you wrote?

matt2, Friday, 21 January 2011 17:04 (3 years ago) Permalink

best rule of thumb for me re: jazz recs is to buy high quality vinyl reissues

I'm a CD guy for convenience reasons. I listen to music mainly in four settings -- in the car (CD only); at work (CD only); while I'm running for 1+ hours at a time, longer runs (iPod, imported to iTunes from CDs); and at home in the evenings (vinyl, CD, or from my laptop in iTunes). Only the last of these four settings allows me to play vinyl, so I've always figured I'm best off sticking to CDs given how music fits into my lifestyle.

Figure I'll stick with the Columbia/Legacy Miles reissues as they seem common to find as well as good quality, but I'd welcome any thoughts on other reissued labels or big artists' catalogs.

Thanks for yr thoughts, unperson, very helpful. I've seen the RVG issue and the Blue Note issue of, say, that Eric Dolphy disc that somebody mentioned upthread. Is there a rule of thumb as to which is best?

ilxor, Friday, 21 January 2011 17:05 (3 years ago) Permalink

The book's called Running The Voodoo Down: The Electric Music of Miles Davis. Amazon link.

Re Dolphy, the 1999 remaster sounds great.

that's not funny. (unperson), Friday, 21 January 2011 17:07 (3 years ago) Permalink

holy shit had no idea that was you. great book!

ex-heroin addict tricycle (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 21 January 2011 17:17 (3 years ago) Permalink

was always kinda annoyed how Miles' bios/autobios tended to really gloss over the period

ex-heroin addict tricycle (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 21 January 2011 17:18 (3 years ago) Permalink

Cheers on that book mention, I'll keep an eye out for that one.

ilxor, Friday, 21 January 2011 17:25 (3 years ago) Permalink

Money Jungle was the record that made jazz make sense for me; but any number of Mingus/Miles/Monk/Sun Ra records can work for ears trained to art rock, and I cant imagine going wrong with any recommendations.

I'll stick in one more from the funk era, 'cause it serves as such a great bridge to earlier jazz: Ellington's Afro-Eurasain Eclipse. It's orchestral swing, but with some serious rhythmic craziness.

bendy, Friday, 21 January 2011 17:31 (3 years ago) Permalink

yeah unperson, that book is great

tylerw, Friday, 21 January 2011 17:31 (3 years ago) Permalink

oh, unperson is phil!

bows don't kill people, arrows do (Jordan), Friday, 21 January 2011 17:33 (3 years ago) Permalink

~~~GRAND REVEAL~~~

ilxor, Friday, 21 January 2011 17:34 (3 years ago) Permalink

one of the interesting things about Miles' electric period is how well it exemplifies that weird split in jazz over whether not swing was essential to the genre. Miles (along with a lot of other people already mentioned in this thread) identified improvisation - and specifically collective improvisation - as the essential foundation of his music, swing was just a sort of formalized style that eventually lost its attraction. but for other hardcore "purists" (like Crouch) pretty much anything that didn't swing could not be acceptably classified as "jazz".

wars over genre conventions are fascinating sometimes

ex-heroin addict tricycle (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 21 January 2011 18:00 (3 years ago) Permalink

The most recent batch of Miles Davis remasters (the ones in the clear plastic jewel cases as opposed to the 80s ones with the blue border, or the 90s ones with the brown border) have been done (or supervised) by Bob Belden, and they sound fantastic across the board.

agree completely. i recently replaced all the 70s miles with these (to the extent that i could find them), and they sound fantastic. speaking of "rated x", get up with it is one of my favorite records period, and i'm glad someone thought to mention it. if i understand correctly, it's basically a clean-up collection of unused tracks, but that gives it an amazing looseness and wtf experimental variety. think that on "rated x" miles just plays sun ra organ chords. anyway, here's a tube:

normal_fantasy-unicorns (contenderizer), Friday, 21 January 2011 18:02 (3 years ago) Permalink

and now wanna read yr book, unperson. have heard good things about it.

normal_fantasy-unicorns (contenderizer), Friday, 21 January 2011 18:03 (3 years ago) Permalink

Scribbled down the names of a few interesting-looking albums I saw yesterday. Any thoughts on these?

John Coltrane - Ascension
John Coltrane - Meditations
Miles Davis - Milestones
Miles Davis - Miles Smiles
Herbie Hancock - Man-Child
Thelonious Monk - Thelonious Monk w/ John Coltrane
Sun Ra - The Singles (double-CD set...)

ilxor, Friday, 21 January 2011 18:10 (3 years ago) Permalink

all great

Algerian Goalkeeper, Friday, 21 January 2011 18:11 (3 years ago) Permalink

Ascension is my fave coltrane but it's not something you would jump straight into unless you really like free jazz.
Man-Child is Herbie's funkiest album and is absolutely wonderful in every way.

Algerian Goalkeeper, Friday, 21 January 2011 18:12 (3 years ago) Permalink

would get the carnegie hall monk/coltrane disc rather than Thelonious Monk w/ John Coltrane first

tylerw, Friday, 21 January 2011 18:12 (3 years ago) Permalink

Ascension - not a good thing to listen to until you're deep into Coltrane. Meditations, on the other hand, is glorious. I've never been a big Sun Ra fan; the only stuff I like by him is from the early 70s, when he was big into synths. The 2CD set The Solar-Myth Approach is good, and there are some live bootlegs like Outer Space Employment Agency that are good, too.

that's not funny. (unperson), Friday, 21 January 2011 18:13 (3 years ago) Permalink

Meditations is sometimes the greatest album ever by anyone, but it may take years for this to hit you.....it did me.

Milestones has the great modal title track, Miles Smiles is maybe his great cubist record (but possibly not a 'starter' record)

I don't own the Sun Ra but have heard most of it and it's great.

sonofstan, Friday, 21 January 2011 18:14 (3 years ago) Permalink

I don't have much to add re: those specific titles

I am a huge Sun Ra fan but I'm not sure what's on that Singles box. The very concept of a Sun Ra single is kinda hilarious as he's got to be one of the most non-single-oriented artists ever. but that doesn't mean there isn't good stuff on there.

ex-heroin addict tricycle (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 21 January 2011 18:16 (3 years ago) Permalink

Man-Child is more like an electro-funk record, great stuff

ex-heroin addict tricycle (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 21 January 2011 18:17 (3 years ago) Permalink

agree that Ascension is insane. a very bracing listen.

ex-heroin addict tricycle (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 21 January 2011 18:17 (3 years ago) Permalink

in fact I think I will listen to it now

ex-heroin addict tricycle (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 21 January 2011 18:18 (3 years ago) Permalink

Miles Davis - Miles Smiles

very posssibly my favorite miles album, and definitely my fave 2nd quintet one

bows don't kill people, arrows do (Jordan), Friday, 21 January 2011 18:18 (3 years ago) Permalink

I am a huge Sun Ra fan but I'm not sure what's on that Singles box.

Pretty sure this is the Sun Ra track listing:

http://www.amazon.com/Singles-Sun-Ra/dp/tracks/B0000014N7/ref=dp_tracks_all_1#disc_1

ilxor, Friday, 21 January 2011 18:19 (3 years ago) Permalink

i agree w unperson, the RVG blue note editions sound perfectly fine for home listening.

i dunno what its like in the usa, but in europe so much classic jazz is now out of copyright - up to 1961 - you can pick up hundreds of stone classic albs for little more pennies. i esp like the sets issued by this bunch:

http://www.avidgroup.co.uk/acatalog/jazz.htm

Ward Fowler, Friday, 21 January 2011 18:19 (3 years ago) Permalink

Is there an essential series of Herbie Hancock CD reissues, or are these '90s issues with borders on the CD covers fine?

ilxor, Friday, 21 January 2011 18:22 (3 years ago) Permalink

again, the legacy reissues are probably the way to go

tylerw, Friday, 21 January 2011 18:24 (3 years ago) Permalink

Ah okay, I hadn't seen Hancock reissues on Legacy yet. Thanks!

ilxor, Friday, 21 January 2011 18:25 (3 years ago) Permalink

btw i haven't seen it mentioned in this thread, so i will mention it (because it completely blew my mind in high school):

john coltrane - live at birdland

bows don't kill people, arrows do (Jordan), Friday, 21 January 2011 18:25 (3 years ago) Permalink

also, doesn't seem to have been mentioned too much in this thread, but duke ellington duke ellington duke ellington

tylerw, Friday, 21 January 2011 18:28 (3 years ago) Permalink

my favorite Duke is live at newport, but I admit I have only a cursory knowledge of his vast catalog. man, there was this one CD my coffee shop boss had in college that was some Duke Ellington live thing that was really heavily vibes-dominated (from the mid-60s iirc) but I can't recall the title and have never been able to find it... :(

ex-heroin addict tricycle (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 21 January 2011 18:30 (3 years ago) Permalink

also i still think that mingus mingus mingus mingus mingus is a great intro to mingus and jazz. a bunch of his more famous tunes, really well recorded and performed. radiohead sampled it, if that helps.

bows don't kill people, arrows do (Jordan), Friday, 21 January 2011 18:33 (3 years ago) Permalink

wouldn't recommend any of those as THE record to start with for miles, coltrane or herbie hancock, but second meditations, miles smiles and manchild anyway. all great & easily approachable. ascension is classic "difficult music.

I've never been a big Sun Ra fan; the only stuff I like by him is from the early 70s, when he was big into synths. The 2CD set The Solar-Myth Approach is good, and there are some live bootlegs like Outer Space Employment Agency that are good, too.

― that's not funny. (unperson), Friday, January 21, 2011 10:13 AM (8 minutes ago) Bookmark

ha. feel completely the opposite. i've been curious about the sun ra set ilxor mentions. he's not thought of as a singles artist, his early work having been massively overshadowed by the massive electric arkestra stuff from the late 60s through early 80s, but i honestly prefer mr. ra's (mystery's) early small group recordings, stuff from the 50s and early/mid 60s. during the 50s, he ran a chicago-based record company that mostly issues singles, producing and backing on cuts for local musicians, so he really was a singles artist, at least for a while. want to explore his work as producer and session musician a little more. over the past few years a bunch of this stuff has been gathered up and released, but i'm dragging my heels/wallet.

normal_fantasy-unicorns (contenderizer), Friday, 21 January 2011 18:38 (3 years ago) Permalink

^ responding there to ilxor's list

normal_fantasy-unicorns (contenderizer), Friday, 21 January 2011 18:38 (3 years ago) Permalink

would get the carnegie hall monk/coltrane disc rather than Thelonious Monk w/ John Coltrane first

Either, or both -- these are great albums and a good way into both artists' catalogs.

I am on a Sun Ra kick this week. I heard Jazz in Silhouette for the first time and loved it, same for Cosmic Tones for Mental Therapy, but in a blindfold test would never have known these were by the same guy. His work varies insanely in style and (unfortunately) recording quality. Lanquidity might be a good one for someone coming in with a funk/krautrock frame of reference.

Brad C., Friday, 21 January 2011 18:38 (3 years ago) Permalink

I am a huge Sun Ra fan but I'm not sure what's on that Singles box. The very concept of a Sun Ra single is kinda hilarious as he's got to be one of the most non-single-oriented artists ever. but that doesn't mean there isn't good stuff on there.

― ex-heroin addict tricycle (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, January 21, 2011 12:16 PM (20 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

he actually released a bunch of 45s iirc. the singles box is a lot of weird doo wop & pop-oriented jazz.

*gets the power* (deej), Friday, 21 January 2011 18:39 (3 years ago) Permalink

tbh i say wait on sun ra. hes got a massive discography & a lot of it makes more sense in the context of having heard more jazz

*gets the power* (deej), Friday, 21 January 2011 18:39 (3 years ago) Permalink

Lanquidity might be a good one for someone coming in with a funk/krautrock frame of reference.

― Brad C., Friday, January 21, 2011 10:38 AM (33 seconds ago) Bookmark

OTM. great record, unique in his catalog (though disco 3000 is comparable, i guess). was saying i prefer the early recordings, and i do, but lanquidity is a knockout.

normal_fantasy-unicorns (contenderizer), Friday, 21 January 2011 18:41 (3 years ago) Permalink

Sun Ra's vocal groups recordings are some of my favourite things he did (including some classic Christmas songs!); the Spaceship Lullaby comp on Atavistic has a great selection.

Can your monkey do the Bot? (seandalai), Friday, 21 January 2011 18:46 (3 years ago) Permalink

tbh i love when he covered batman & pink elephants on parade

*gets the power* (deej), Friday, 21 January 2011 18:47 (3 years ago) Permalink

Yeah the Batman album is fun - though I don't think he's on all the tracks?

Can your monkey do the Bot? (seandalai), Friday, 21 January 2011 18:48 (3 years ago) Permalink

he actually released a bunch of 45s iirc. the singles box is a lot of weird doo wop & pop-oriented jazz.

oh right - yeah I've seen the individual LP reissues of this stuff but haven't sprung for any. looks pretty nuts but I wonder about the sound quality

ex-heroin addict tricycle (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 21 January 2011 18:50 (3 years ago) Permalink

its pretty whatever. i basically never pull that record out

honestly i think the best place to start w/ sun ra for n00bs is the 'greatest hits: easy listening for intergalactic travel'

*gets the power* (deej), Friday, 21 January 2011 18:51 (3 years ago) Permalink

tbh i say wait on sun ra. hes got a massive discography & a lot of it makes more sense in the context of having heard more jazz

Will probably wait on the Sun Ra singles set because it's $18.99 and I can buy 4-5 other discs for that price. But good to know as a heads up. To someone who's familiar with the track listing, are those mostly early Sun Ra recordings/singles, then?

ilxor, Friday, 21 January 2011 18:51 (3 years ago) Permalink

it gives a good overview of his career & suggests diff directions for u to follow. hes the rare exception to the albums >>> comps rules in jazz, imo, as an introduction goes

*gets the power* (deej), Friday, 21 January 2011 18:52 (3 years ago) Permalink

thats an xp to my own post

*gets the power* (deej), Friday, 21 January 2011 18:52 (3 years ago) Permalink

OTM. great record, unique in his catalog (though disco 3000 is comparable, i guess

oh I dunno I think it's of a piece with several others - On Jupiter, Strange Celestial Road, Sleeping Beauty. Lanquidity is probably the out and out funkiest though.

ex-heroin addict tricycle (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 21 January 2011 18:53 (3 years ago) Permalink

ilxor that singles set is almost entirely early stuff - I haven't heard it yet as I said but I doubt it's representative. Kinda hard to imagine anything that's really representative of the scope of his ouevre - even moreso than Miles, he really went all over the place

ex-heroin addict tricycle (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 21 January 2011 18:55 (3 years ago) Permalink

other good intro sun ra, fwiw:

space is the place (album w the blue cover, not the film soundtrack, which is iffy)
sound of joy

both excellent and very accessible, the former more psychedelic and expansive, the latter indicative of his early traditionalism

normal_fantasy-unicorns (contenderizer), Friday, 21 January 2011 18:59 (3 years ago) Permalink

best song on lanquidity imo is 'thats how i feel'. other songs are good but that song is impeccable & beautiful

*gets the power* (deej), Friday, 21 January 2011 19:01 (3 years ago) Permalink

Miles Smiles is easy to recommend for "Footprints" alone.

Hours of great recommendations on this thread already, but can I just say --

Sonny Sharrock - Guitar
Duke Ellington - The Blanton-Webster Band
...and dig around a little in Louis Armstrong's early discography, Complete Hot Fives and Hot Sevens or Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man

earnest goes to camp, ironic goes to ilm (pixel farmer), Friday, 21 January 2011 19:02 (3 years ago) Permalink

I think it's of a piece with several others... Lanquidity is probably the out and out funkiest though.

yeah, i meant unique in terms of the funk/groove elements. also present to some degree on disco 3000, which isn't half as successful, overall.

normal_fantasy-unicorns (contenderizer), Friday, 21 January 2011 19:02 (3 years ago) Permalink

sun ra's 'on jupiter' is actually way more danceable & straight-up (drunk) disco-y than disco 3000 ime

*gets the power* (deej), Friday, 21 January 2011 19:03 (3 years ago) Permalink

Fifteen Sun Ra recommendations to date... all over the place, just like his albums.

Sun Ra Angels and Demons at Play
Sun Ra Cosmic Tones for Mental Therapy
Sun Ra Disco 3000
Sun Ra Greatest Hits: Easy Listening for Intergalactic Travel
Sun Ra Jazz in Silhouette
Sun Ra Lanquidity
Sun Ra On Jupiter
Sun Ra Outer Space Employment Agency
Sun Ra The Singles
Sun Ra Sleeping Beauty
Sun Ra The Solar-Myth Approach
Sun Ra Sound of Joy
Sun Ra Space Is the Place
Sun Ra Spaceship Lullaby
Sun Ra Strange Celestial Road

ilxor, Friday, 21 January 2011 19:04 (3 years ago) Permalink

Sun Ra Greatest Hits: Easy Listening for Intergalactic Travel

^^this one itself covers a bunch of his albums. def go for this 1st & figure out which 'era' you like the best

imho

*gets the power* (deej), Friday, 21 January 2011 19:05 (3 years ago) Permalink

no-ones mentioned heliocentric world of?

Algerian Goalkeeper, Friday, 21 January 2011 19:06 (3 years ago) Permalink

imo when someone asks for jazz recommendations & we spend half the thread going on about sun ra we are basically off topic

*gets the power* (deej), Friday, 21 January 2011 19:07 (3 years ago) Permalink

Nope, because I said in my original thread post:

Stuff I picked up tonight (never heard any of these before, will listen soon):

Miles Davis - Nefertiti
Miles Davis - On the Corner
Sun Ra - The Heliocentric Worlds of Sun Ra, Volume One

― ilxor, Wednesday, January 19, 2011 9:29 PM (2 days ago)

ilxor, Friday, 21 January 2011 19:07 (3 years ago) Permalink

(xp to Algerian Goalkeeper there)

ilxor, Friday, 21 January 2011 19:08 (3 years ago) Permalink

there's volume 2 though

Algerian Goalkeeper, Friday, 21 January 2011 19:08 (3 years ago) Permalink

i think they were the 1st sun ra i ever bought (on vinyl too)

Algerian Goalkeeper, Friday, 21 January 2011 19:08 (3 years ago) Permalink

sun ra's 'on jupiter' is actually way more danceable & straight-up (drunk) disco-y than disco 3000 ime

guess i oughtta track it down. *sigh* so much ra...

normal_fantasy-unicorns (contenderizer), Friday, 21 January 2011 19:10 (3 years ago) Permalink

Speaking of Ra, I'm about to listen to "Strange Strings" for the first time...

Can your monkey do the Bot? (seandalai), Friday, 21 January 2011 19:11 (3 years ago) Permalink

imo when someone asks for jazz recommendations & we spend half the thread going on about sun ra we are basically off topic

fair enough. he's a cult unto himself, but i do love him. funny that we've had like 50 posts on sun ra and only a small handful on like duke ellington and louis armstrong. this is ILM, though, so no surprise.

normal_fantasy-unicorns (contenderizer), Friday, 21 January 2011 19:12 (3 years ago) Permalink

I also mentioned upfront that I'm pretty well versed in kraut/space/psych rock and free/psych-folk idioms, so I think (hope!) many of the Sun Ra recommendations are being made with that kept in mind as well.

ilxor, Friday, 21 January 2011 19:23 (3 years ago) Permalink

I'd figure one could draw lines between Sun Ra --> Parliament/Funkadelic --> Sonic Youth --> OutKast (or something similar) as well, which would be in line with my (and other ILX folks') listening habits and tastes.

ilxor, Friday, 21 January 2011 19:26 (3 years ago) Permalink

Sun Ra --> Parliament/Funkadelic --> Sonic Youth --> OutKast (or something similar)

deej gave me shit for doing this on some other thread fwiw

ex-heroin addict tricycle (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 21 January 2011 19:28 (3 years ago) Permalink

but yeah would be happy if people went off about various Duke albums

been meaning to get Black and Tan Fantasy for awhile

ex-heroin addict tricycle (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 21 January 2011 19:29 (3 years ago) Permalink

Are those two different albums -- Black; Tan Fantasy -- or one album called Black and Tan Fantasy?

ilxor, Friday, 21 January 2011 19:31 (3 years ago) Permalink

(Yes I realize I could've just Googled that but I'd obviously rather flaunt my ignorance.)

ilxor, Friday, 21 January 2011 19:32 (3 years ago) Permalink

Keep in mind I'm approaching jazz from the standpoint of loving stuff like krautrock, psych rock, "weird" folky stuff that gets a bit drone-y at times.
enthusiastically second In A Silent Way! (also Filles de Kilimanjaro)
although Herbie Hancock's Sextant is a great and logical recommendation, the Headhunters record might be a better place to start (SO many people love this record upon first listen)
Weather Report's Mysterious Traveller (if only for "Cucumber Slumber")
Sun Ra's Languitity (mentioned already?)
Dave Douglas (interesting mix of tradition and experimental electronics on "Freak In"...)
Ornette's "Dancing in Your Head", "Of Human Feelings", and "Body Meta" (those last two will be tough to find, but worth the search)

Sanford, Friday, 21 January 2011 19:33 (3 years ago) Permalink

Black & Tan Fantasy is one record.

earnest goes to camp, ironic goes to ilm (pixel farmer), Friday, 21 January 2011 19:37 (3 years ago) Permalink

If you're trying to invent a line from Sun Ra to Sonic Youth and non-jazz improvised music (beyond philosophical inspiration), Strange Strings might make sense as a waypoint:

After finishing a series of concerts of New York State colleges sponsored by ESP, Sun Ra decided to assemble a number of stringed instruments bought from curio shops and music stores. Ukuleles, Mandolins, Kotos, Koras, Chinese Lutes and 'Moon Guitars' were handed out to his reed and horn players in the belief that 'strings could touch people in a special way, different from other instruments [3].' The point was that the Arkestra didn't know how to play them - Sun Ra called it 'a study in ignorance.' [3]

'Next they prepared a number of homemade instruments, including a large piece of tempered sheet metal with an "X" chiseled on it. Then they miked the Sun Columns.

'Marshall Allen said that when they began to record the musicians asked Sun Ra what they should play, and he answered only that he would point to them when he wanted them to start. The result is an astonishing achievement, a musical event which seems independent of all other musical traditions and histories.... The piece is all texture, with no sense of tonality except where Art Jenkins sings through a metal megaphone with a tunnel voice. But to say that the instruments seem out of tune misses the point, since there is no "tune", and in any case the Arkestra did not know how to tune most of the instruments...'

It's surprisingly listenable.

Can your monkey do the Bot? (seandalai), Friday, 21 January 2011 19:40 (3 years ago) Permalink

Sun Ra --> Parliament/Funkadelic --> Sonic Youth --> OutKast (or something similar)

deej gave me shit for doing this on some other thread fwiw

― ex-heroin addict tricycle (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, January 21, 2011 1:28 PM (20 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i know there's a strain of listener who likes all of these things but Shakey Mo's Black People Should Get Off This Planet mix doesnt per se outline influence or significance to anyone but shakey mo & the niche of similar listeners

*gets the power* (deej), Friday, 21 January 2011 19:50 (3 years ago) Permalink

... aaaaaand let's cut the Sun Ra influences discussion there, before we derail this thread completely. :)

ilxor, Friday, 21 January 2011 19:52 (3 years ago) Permalink

btw i haven't seen it mentioned in this thread, so i will mention it (because it completely blew my mind in high school):

john coltrane - live at birdland

― bows don't kill people, arrows do (Jordan), Friday, 21 January 2011 18:25 (1 hour ago)

Yeah same. This was another one of those less "essential" records I heard first and loved. Oh, btw, MY FAVORITE THINGS -- great, great jazz record for a jazz noob.

Similarly, I heard Milestones way before Kind of Blue and I still think I may like it better.

hey boys, suppers on me, our video just went bacterial (Hurting 2), Friday, 21 January 2011 19:58 (3 years ago) Permalink

Birdland has that awesome sounding slightly out of tune piano.

hey boys, suppers on me, our video just went bacterial (Hurting 2), Friday, 21 January 2011 19:58 (3 years ago) Permalink

yeah my favorite things (the track, then the whole album) was probably the jazz gateway drug for me. never ever gets old.

tylerw, Friday, 21 January 2011 19:59 (3 years ago) Permalink

I mean I'm going to troll a little here, but given the choice between Sun Ra's entire discography and just My Favorite Things as the only music I have to listen to, I would unquestionably take the latter

hey boys, suppers on me, our video just went bacterial (Hurting 2), Friday, 21 January 2011 20:01 (3 years ago) Permalink

ill cosign 'live at birdland,' anythin w/ afro blue x alabama is gonna be unstoppable

*gets the power* (deej), Friday, 21 January 2011 20:02 (3 years ago) Permalink

I also like Coltrane's Sound better than Giant Steps

hey boys, suppers on me, our video just went bacterial (Hurting 2), Friday, 21 January 2011 20:03 (3 years ago) Permalink

Shakey Mo's Black People Should Get Off This Planet mix ...

― *gets the power* (deej), Friday, January 21, 2011 11:50 AM (11 minutes ago) Bookmark

ffs, dude

normal_fantasy-unicorns (contenderizer), Friday, 21 January 2011 20:04 (3 years ago) Permalink

ha thats a play on an old shakey mo post

*gets the power* (deej), Friday, 21 January 2011 20:04 (3 years ago) Permalink

duh, okay. scanned more aggro than necessary.

normal_fantasy-unicorns (contenderizer), Friday, 21 January 2011 20:05 (3 years ago) Permalink

(seriously I would totally flip my shit right now if there were some rap act saying "black people got to get off this fuckin planet and into space - and here's the music to go along with it")

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, April 12, 2006 5:58 PM (4 years ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

*gets the power* (deej), Friday, 21 January 2011 20:06 (3 years ago) Permalink

i think significance (or maybe i should say relevance) changes depending on context and audience. like it's reasonable here to tailor recommendations and discussion to the musical world of the admittedly krautrockin ilxor. like more sun ra & coltrane, less art tatum.

normal_fantasy-unicorns (contenderizer), Friday, 21 January 2011 20:10 (3 years ago) Permalink

I would totally flip my shit right now if there were some rap act saying "black people got to get off this fuckin planet and into space - and here's the music to go along with it"

plus shut the fuck up, me, cuz that's obviously what sun ra was saying, and just as obviously what you were referring to. i can't think sometimes...

normal_fantasy-unicorns (contenderizer), Friday, 21 January 2011 20:12 (3 years ago) Permalink

Skimming through here: just chip in that giving Ascension a go as a first record by Coltrane is completely fine as you pretty much know he did lots of different things. Just as Ra making singles isn't at all strange.

xyzzzz__, Friday, 21 January 2011 21:52 (3 years ago) Permalink

Good stuff. I've noted that it's probably not the best entry point to Coltrane, but may give it a whirl anyway if it's the first record of his I happen to stumble onto for a fair price. And anyway, I don't plan to hear any one record, say Ascenion by Coltrane, and flip the "off" switch on exploring his other stuff if I don't enjoy it. I'm in this for the long haul, and it goes without saying that most of the musicians mentioned here did lots of different albums that may sound vastly different from one another.

ilxor, Friday, 21 January 2011 21:57 (3 years ago) Permalink

I agree Duke Ellington has been under-represented on the thread so far. Armstrong too, but that's a pretty big leap back in the time machine for somebody starting from krautrock and psych.

I was trying to remember how I got from Bitches Brew (the first jazz album I bought) to '30s, '40s, and '50s jazz. I think maybe Miles' records with Gil Evans, Sketches of Spain in particular, made it easier for me to appreciate Ellington's big band sound. I got the Ken Burns Ellington compilation, wore that out for while, then started getting more Ellington. After that I was able to get more out of Armstrong, Parker, Monk, Coltrane, etc. than I had before.

Brad C., Friday, 21 January 2011 21:58 (3 years ago) Permalink

Did you like Bitches Brew at first? I remember coming at it from jazz, I found it hard to listen to. There may also have been something flat about the remaster I had. Then one night I was driving around with a friend and he put on one of those Complete Bitches Brew Sessions discs, and the whole thing totally opened up for me. The non-BB material kind of helped me enjoy the BB stuff more. But the whole thing also sounded more open and had more sonic depth than I remembered.

hey boys, suppers on me, our video just went bacterial (Hurting 2), Friday, 21 January 2011 22:05 (3 years ago) Permalink

Duke Ellington and Johnny Hodges - side by side
get this for the sweets edison solo on 'stompy jones'

*gets the power* (deej), Friday, 21 January 2011 22:05 (3 years ago) Permalink

Re Miles, I'd suggest In a Silent Way (xpost -- more ambient) and Jack Johnson (more rocking) as really accessible points of entry.

100% cosign.

Daniel, Esq., Friday, 21 January 2011 22:07 (3 years ago) Permalink

Did you like Bitches Brew at first?

I didn't. I bought it and Kind of Blue on cassette, in close proximity, when I was about 14-15, and hated BB. Didn't "get it" until years later.

that's not funny. (unperson), Friday, 21 January 2011 22:13 (3 years ago) Permalink

i finally found 'tribute to jack johnson' on vinyl and omg mclaughlin's dirty dirty guitar!!!!

"crut" copy (diamonddave85), Friday, 21 January 2011 22:18 (3 years ago) Permalink

also davis was late to the recording and mclaughlin and the bassist were just jamming and about two minutes in, he shows up and just throws down an amazing solo. the best part is that you can totally 'hear' davis entering the studio by what the musicians are playing. a++++ would recommend

"crut" copy (diamonddave85), Friday, 21 January 2011 22:21 (3 years ago) Permalink

Did you like Bitches Brew at first?

I liked it okay but not as much as I'd hoped. It wasn't quite what I expected -- I was probably looking for something more like Jack Johnson or Agharta.

Brad C., Friday, 21 January 2011 23:53 (3 years ago) Permalink

the ellington/mingus/roach trio record might be a good entryway to duke if yr not ready for big band stuff.

tylerw, Friday, 21 January 2011 23:54 (3 years ago) Permalink

big band like 30's big band or big band like Jazz Composer's Orchestra, Globe Unity, etc.?

sarahel, Saturday, 22 January 2011 00:00 (3 years ago) Permalink

sorry - missed the word "duke" in your post, Tyler

sarahel, Saturday, 22 January 2011 00:07 (3 years ago) Permalink

but the thing is, the phrase "if yr not ready for big band stuff" just strikes me as weird, because that stuff is what pop music used to be, what dance music used to be, and now we have software and samples to replace all those instruments, but i have trouble understanding how ellington's big band music would be something that's hard to get into, that you have to get ready in some way to appreciate.

sarahel, Saturday, 22 January 2011 00:12 (3 years ago) Permalink

Keep in mind I'm approaching jazz from the standpoint of loving stuff like krautrock, psych rock, "weird" folky stuff that gets a bit drone-y at times.

this makes it really easy to understand how big band wouldnt be immediate...

69, Saturday, 22 January 2011 00:13 (3 years ago) Permalink

yeah, but presumably ilxor has heard pop music and seen old movies?

sarahel, Saturday, 22 January 2011 00:15 (3 years ago) Permalink

man i just spotted this thread

hey dude

this thread shall be rad

HOOS the master?? STEEN NUFF (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Saturday, 22 January 2011 00:16 (3 years ago) Permalink

i know you've already got a list of recs a mile long but if i can just toss some pennies in the hat

-Giant Steps: this is the first jazz record that really got me by the throat, and in retrospect I think it's because the music was so fast & complex that it kind of melted all the harmonic information into gibberish and I just heard these bright luminous noises like dude was blowing sparks out of his horn

-Meditations: Easily my favorite jazz record. iirc I'm in the minority for even noticing it, but McCoy Tyner's piano playing on this record totally opened up piano jazz for me.

-Complete Art Tatum: See Giant Steps

I see Mats & The Thing have already been mentioned, I just wanted to shout out "Fire!," a collabo Mats was involved with that is suuuuuuuuper krautrocky at points. One of my fave records of the last few years, have a feeling it's right up yr alley.

HOOS the master?? STEEN NUFF (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Saturday, 22 January 2011 00:24 (3 years ago) Permalink

so this is sorta a ridiculous deal if you don't have this: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000FBHCQO/ref=s9_simh_gw_p15_d1_i4?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-5&pf_rd_r=116E9TAM4WERR3FHKPMN&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=470939291&pf_rd_i=507846
$3.99 for two CDs of monk/coltrane

tylerw, Saturday, 22 January 2011 20:20 (3 years ago) Permalink

man i just spotted this thread

hey dude

this thread shall be rad

― HOOS the master?? STEEN NUFF (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Saturday, January 22, 2011 2:16 AM (20 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

yeah, man, i second that emotion.

Ioannis, Saturday, 22 January 2011 21:13 (3 years ago) Permalink

Cheers everyone, I took a breather from this thread but I've been listening to lots of jazz, including several recommendations in this thread that I picked up yesterday (in exchange for, oh, $50 less in my wallet...).

HOOS, I picked up Giant Steps used for $4 -- definitely will play soon. I saw Meditations, I think the CD issue on Impulse but in a jewel case. Is there a new, remastered version I should watch for instead? I've seen a lot of Impulse stuff in digipaks...

Seriously thinking about picking up that $3.99 Amazon recommendation, I have an order to place there today regardless. Anyone else heard it?

ilxor, Saturday, 22 January 2011 21:38 (3 years ago) Permalink

Btw, the description of Coltrane blowing sparks out of his horn is the BEST possible recommendation ever. Sounds incredible!

ilxor, Saturday, 22 January 2011 21:39 (3 years ago) Permalink

the monk/coltrane 2 cd is a great deal - only real issue is that it's one of those things where multiple takes are sequenced together, which always kinda bugs me. but you could get it and sequence a playlist yourself so that it followed this album: http://www.amazon.com/Monks-Music-Thelonious-Monk/dp/B000000Y52/ref=pd_sim_m_35, which is great.

tylerw, Saturday, 22 January 2011 21:42 (3 years ago) Permalink

Well thanks for telling me after I placed the order. ;)

j/k

ilxor, Saturday, 22 January 2011 21:59 (3 years ago) Permalink

what tylerw said

you'd want to refer to the sequence on this album too: http://www.amazon.com/Thelonious-Monk-John-Coltrane/dp/B0038M61B4/ref=pd_sim_m_59

hard to beat getting both plus alternative takes for $3.99

Brad C., Saturday, 22 January 2011 21:59 (3 years ago) Permalink

ilxor, you need this. now!:

http://www.amazon.com/Journey-In-Satchidananda/dp/B000W06V6A/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1295733577&sr=8-1

Ioannis, Saturday, 22 January 2011 22:00 (3 years ago) Permalink

I'm definitely keeping an eye out for Alice. Saw a used one the other day... not Journey, though; let me look up the name.

ilxor, Saturday, 22 January 2011 22:06 (3 years ago) Permalink

Ptah the El Daoud -- think it was on Impulse.

ilxor, Saturday, 22 January 2011 22:07 (3 years ago) Permalink

That one's great too-- as are Universal Consciousness & World Galaxy.

President Keyes, Saturday, 22 January 2011 22:09 (3 years ago) Permalink

THat's a great one too plus awesome sleeve

ha xp

seminal fuiud (NickB), Saturday, 22 January 2011 22:10 (3 years ago) Permalink

my recommendations:

in a silent way
get up with it
creator has a master plan
pangaea/agartha
let my children hear music

I see what this is (Local Garda), Saturday, 22 January 2011 22:21 (3 years ago) Permalink

"he loved him madly" is an incredible piece of music

the Chinese firewall of the heart (Michael B), Saturday, 22 January 2011 22:27 (3 years ago) Permalink

yeah so fucking good...crazily intense.

I see what this is (Local Garda), Saturday, 22 January 2011 22:31 (3 years ago) Permalink

^^^yeah, "He Loved Him Madly" (from Get Up with It) is one of the saddest pieces of recorded music evah! and it slithers and morphs for more than 30 minutes, too. was a big influence on ambient Eno as well, apparently.

xps haw!

Ioannis, Saturday, 22 January 2011 22:33 (3 years ago) Permalink

"Rated X" is pretty intense too. nearly blew the head off me when i first heard it.

the Chinese firewall of the heart (Michael B), Saturday, 22 January 2011 22:34 (3 years ago) Permalink

xxxpost re: Ascension. like or loathe, it's the greatest example of a classic 1960's Free Jazz session if ever there was one. Don Cherry - complete communion being my #2 pick over Ornette - Free Jazz.

count me in the small group that doesn't really get the bitches brew and on the corner popularity (except on the corner has that killer cover; and i guess they were both well marketed in the day). Especially if you compare those to the godheadlikeness that are Jack Johnson and Agharta

KC & the sunshine banned (outdoor_miner), Saturday, 22 January 2011 22:36 (3 years ago) Permalink

that whole album is crazy eclectic, too; "inconsistent" in the best way possible.

xp

Ioannis, Saturday, 22 January 2011 22:37 (3 years ago) Permalink

Might be interesting to set up a Listening Room where ILXors can play a bunch of these recommendations for ilxor so he can take a taste before he purchases.

earnest goes to camp, ironic goes to ilm (pixel farmer), Saturday, 22 January 2011 22:39 (3 years ago) Permalink

i like big fun a lot as well though it is a bit inconsistent, listened to that on a bus through spain in roasting hot weather at night before, amazing.

I see what this is (Local Garda), Saturday, 22 January 2011 22:41 (3 years ago) Permalink

count me in the small group that doesn't really get the bitches brew and on the corner popularity

yeah they still havent clicked with me either. maybe some day....

the Chinese firewall of the heart (Michael B), Saturday, 22 January 2011 22:44 (3 years ago) Permalink

Might be interesting to set up a Listening Room where ILXors can play a bunch of these recommendations for ilxor so he can take a taste before he purchases.

Listening Room wasn't working for me when I tried it a week or so ago.

Anyway, I prefer the idea of diving headlong into albums I've never heard and committing myself to them. Jazz doesn't strike me as a "hear one song once, know if you'll enjoy the album long-term" type of genre.

ilxor, Saturday, 22 January 2011 22:53 (3 years ago) Permalink

my recommendations:

.....
let my children hear music

Good one.

sonofstan, Saturday, 22 January 2011 22:56 (3 years ago) Permalink

i love adagio ma non troppo from that record. is such a big hearted song...

I see what this is (Local Garda), Saturday, 22 January 2011 23:02 (3 years ago) Permalink

other problem w/ the listening room is that jazz tracks can be really damn long

*gets the power* (deej), Sunday, 23 January 2011 00:42 (3 years ago) Permalink

Yeah, Listening Room works best when people are bouncing different things off each other, it's a different thing to concentrating on a single album.

Can your monkey do the Bot? (seandalai), Sunday, 23 January 2011 01:17 (3 years ago) Permalink

communist kickball (m coleman), Sunday, 23 January 2011 13:11 (3 years ago) Permalink

communist kickball (m coleman), Sunday, 23 January 2011 13:16 (3 years ago) Permalink

Sonny Rollins & Dexter Gordon were my gateway drugs to saxophone addiction. both project enveloping warmth & audible sense of humor

communist kickball (m coleman), Sunday, 23 January 2011 13:24 (3 years ago) Permalink

i've no idea about ilxor's preferences, but all six of those records are absolutely essential stuff m coleman.
the bonus tracks on the Monk reissues are like the best bonus tracks ever...
and on the Rollins tip Clifford Brown & Max Roach (with Sonny) is another one i'd highly recommend. CB is the greatest trumpet player ever(imho)

KC & the sunshine banned (outdoor_miner), Sunday, 23 January 2011 15:54 (3 years ago) Permalink

has anyone recommended coltrane's blue train yet?

following what worked for a columnist, this was one of the first pieces of music i listed to after 09.11.01. the clean horns sound so strong, optimistic, and full-of-life.

Daniel, Esq., Sunday, 23 January 2011 16:03 (3 years ago) Permalink

Sun Ra - The Heliocentric Worlds of Sun Ra, Volume One

I would not have recommended this as a starting point. I prefer Other Planes of There, which seems to be working around some of the same material or ideas, but isn't so modern classical stiff about it. Anyway, there are lots of worse entry points.

_Rudipherous_, Sunday, 23 January 2011 20:08 (3 years ago) Permalink

Oh, I missed the Sun Ra overkill that already happened. Never mind.

_Rudipherous_, Sunday, 23 January 2011 20:28 (3 years ago) Permalink

Just read the Sun Ra thread where everyone disagrees with everyone else about what the best albums are.

_Rudipherous_, Sunday, 23 January 2011 20:28 (3 years ago) Permalink

Quick question: Am I the only one who prefers Thelonious Monk's Columbia albums to everything that came before? I know the compositions were frequently rehashes of stuff he'd written and/or recorded in the 1950s and even the '40s, but there's something about the organicness of the band, especially his rapport with saxophonist Charlie Rouse, that really gives me more pure pleasure than any of his earlier recordings, even the ones with "all-star" personnel like the stuff with Coltrane or Rollins.

that's not funny. (unperson), Sunday, 23 January 2011 21:07 (3 years ago) Permalink

yeah i kinda feel like the columbia stuff gets a bad rap -- some people really seem to hate Rouse for some reason. But there are some great records during that era, no doubt about it, and it's nice to hear Monk in a really good studio, too -- the early blue note/riverside recordings are obviously classic, but I like the higher fi sound of the columbia stuff, his piano just sounds magical on those records.

tylerw, Sunday, 23 January 2011 21:11 (3 years ago) Permalink

i've always dug his Prestige work best myself. can't really say why; that stuff seemed to capture everything about his work i like best as he moved into the "album" era, i guess. plus, having Sonny Rollins and Max Roach play on his shit certainly didn't hurt.

Ioannis, Sunday, 23 January 2011 21:13 (3 years ago) Permalink

I know everyone always talks about Herbie Hancock's 70s albums, but please dont dismiss his excellent 60s hard bop albums. Infact dont dismiss hard bop at all. There's shitloads of awesome hard bop/ hard bop-avant garde albums on Blue Note in the 60s that you got to hear.

Algerian Goalkeeper, Sunday, 23 January 2011 21:14 (3 years ago) Permalink

re: monk's columbia stuff, this one is classic

tylerw, Sunday, 23 January 2011 21:15 (3 years ago) Permalink

^ my fave of his

Algerian Goalkeeper, Sunday, 23 January 2011 21:16 (3 years ago) Permalink

& yeah, my favorite herbie stuff is probably his 60s blue note records. love the electric records, too, but ...

tylerw, Sunday, 23 January 2011 21:16 (3 years ago) Permalink

There's shitloads of awesome hard bop/ hard bop-avant garde albums on Blue Note in the 60s that you got to hear.

This is absolutely true. Blue Note was pretty much unimpeachable from about '62-66.

that's not funny. (unperson), Sunday, 23 January 2011 21:16 (3 years ago) Permalink

that era is really interesting for blue note -- a nice mix of the classic hard bop sound, but edging towards more "out" ideas. check wayne shorter's records from that period.

tylerw, Sunday, 23 January 2011 21:18 (3 years ago) Permalink

its what I like about it. classic hard bop then HB with some avant garde then avant garde albums with the hard bop influence which equals so many wonderful albums.

Algerian Goalkeeper, Sunday, 23 January 2011 21:22 (3 years ago) Permalink

Ken Vandermark needs to get mentioned in this thread. Heir to (and combiner/synthesizer of) 60s hard bop and the European free improv crowd (Parker, Brotzmann, Bennink, Kowald, etc).

earnest goes to camp, ironic goes to ilm (pixel farmer), Sunday, 23 January 2011 21:22 (3 years ago) Permalink

oh yesh!! love KV (Target or Flag would be my entry point rec. there)

those Columbia monk releases are all wonderful, but Johnny Griffin, who replaced Trane (and plays on Misterio and a couple other Monk/Riverside releases) is the most underrated sax player i know of

xpost

KC & the sunshine banned (outdoor_miner), Sunday, 23 January 2011 21:24 (3 years ago) Permalink

yeah i kinda feel like the columbia stuff gets a bad rap -- some people really seem to hate Rouse for some reason. But there are some great records during that era, no doubt about it, and it's nice to hear Monk in a really good studio, too -- the early blue note/riverside recordings are obviously classic, but I like the higher fi sound of the columbia stuff, his piano just sounds magical on those records.

― tylerw, Sunday, 23 January 2011 21:11 (11 minutes ago)

The Columbia stuff with Frankie Dunlop on drums is great (Monk's Dream, etc.). The stuff where Ben Riley takes over is a little bit lackluster imo.

hey boys, suppers on me, our video just went bacterial (Hurting 2), Sunday, 23 January 2011 21:25 (3 years ago) Permalink

ust read the Sun Ra thread where everyone disagrees with everyone else about what the best albums are.

― _Rudipherous_, Sunday, January 23, 2011 3:28 PM Bookmark

It's hard to agree on which one of a bunch of not very impressive albums riding primarily on mystique is the best.

hey boys, suppers on me, our video just went bacterial (Hurting 2), Sunday, 23 January 2011 21:26 (3 years ago) Permalink

ilxor make sure you check out the likes of Lee Morgan,Andrew Hill,Donald Byrd, Wayne Shorter,Lou Donaldson, McCoy Tyner,Hank Mobley, Grant Green, Cecil Taylor, Bobby Hutcherson, Big John Patton, Don Wilkerson, Jimmy Smith and that's all i can think of off the top of my head.

Algerian Goalkeeper, Sunday, 23 January 2011 21:27 (3 years ago) Permalink

oh and Eric Dolphy.
And please do check out Archie Shepp. FIRE MUSIC!!

Algerian Goalkeeper, Sunday, 23 January 2011 21:27 (3 years ago) Permalink

ilxor make sure you check out the likes of Lee Morgan,Andrew Hill,Donald Byrd, Wayne Shorter,Lou Donaldson, McCoy Tyner,Hank Mobley, Grant Green, Cecil Taylor, Bobby Hutcherson, Big John Patton, Don Wilkerson, Jimmy Smith and that's all i can think of off the top of my head.

― Algerian Goalkeeper, Sunday, January 23, 2011 4:27 PM Bookmark

Seconded.

hey boys, suppers on me, our video just went bacterial (Hurting 2), Sunday, 23 January 2011 21:30 (3 years ago) Permalink

It's hard to agree on which one of a bunch of not very impressive albums riding primarily on mystique is the best.

One thing deej forgot to account for is the fact that so many jazz heads fail to appreciate Sun Ra.

_Rudipherous_, Sunday, 23 January 2011 21:32 (3 years ago) Permalink

without taking genre names into account, i was a big Ra fan 15 years ago, before i knew much Ornette or Monk. tried Ra again the other day just to confirm and i think he's kind of phony and he definitely bores me these days

KC & the sunshine banned (outdoor_miner), Sunday, 23 January 2011 21:34 (3 years ago) Permalink

i'd look to pre-60s stuff if i were you, ilxor.

bobbyhackettscornet (whatever), Sunday, 23 January 2011 21:45 (3 years ago) Permalink

I like some Sun_Ra ok, e.g. Solar Myth Approach, but I don't really see him as a way into jazz.

hey boys, suppers on me, our video just went bacterial (Hurting 2), Sunday, 23 January 2011 21:51 (3 years ago) Permalink

^^^

earnest goes to camp, ironic goes to ilm (pixel farmer), Sunday, 23 January 2011 21:52 (3 years ago) Permalink

and dance bands too. fletcher henderson, tommy dorsey, benny goodman, artie shaw, and glenn miller of course.

bobbyhackettscornet (whatever), Sunday, 23 January 2011 22:00 (3 years ago) Permalink

benny goodman's sextet, with charlie christian on guitar.

bobbyhackettscornet (whatever), Sunday, 23 January 2011 22:00 (3 years ago) Permalink

Love this thread, it's had me digging out some favourites over the weekend and it's been great. My getting into jazz coincided with my first proper job after university back in about 2004 - for a couple of years every HMV/Virgin sale seemed to have a big selection of Columbia Legacy/Blue Note CDs so I went through phases of picking up anything that looked or sounded interesting. Mingus Ah Um was the first album that really clicked with me I think and lots of other things I'd recommend to ilxor have been mentioned already... My knowledge is still fairly sketchy. I'd add Art Blakey's Indestructible and Lee Morgan's The Sidewinder as good Blue Note ones to try though. I've perhaps neglected jazz recently but I'm definitely taking some notes from here - also on Friday night I read through some of the older jazz threads and wound up listening to Let My Children Hear Music for the first time... Wow, what an album that is.

Gavin in Leeds, Sunday, 23 January 2011 22:05 (3 years ago) Permalink

You have Spotify? shitloads of stuff on there

Algerian Goalkeeper, Sunday, 23 January 2011 22:06 (3 years ago) Permalink

Yeah, you're not wrong there. Spotify's my main source for jazz at the moment.

Gavin in Leeds, Sunday, 23 January 2011 22:15 (3 years ago) Permalink

You have Spotify? shitloads of stuff on there

be careful out there.

just finished listening to kenny g/louis armstrong on 'what a wonderful world'.

it wasn't wonderful.

bobbyhackettscornet (whatever), Sunday, 23 January 2011 22:35 (3 years ago) Permalink

serves you right for listening to kenny g

Algerian Goalkeeper, Sunday, 23 January 2011 22:36 (3 years ago) Permalink

srsly though ilxor, i'd also recommend post bop stuff like art pepper, lee konitz.

dave brubeck.

bobbyhackettscornet (whatever), Sunday, 23 January 2011 22:39 (3 years ago) Permalink

it was you that said spotify was good for jazz, algerian goalkeeper...

bobbyhackettscornet (whatever), Sunday, 23 January 2011 22:40 (3 years ago) Permalink

as a side note, what does the g in kenny g stand for?

Great?

bobbyhackettscornet (whatever), Sunday, 23 January 2011 22:41 (3 years ago) Permalink

gettofuck

Algerian Goalkeeper, Sunday, 23 January 2011 22:42 (3 years ago) Permalink

i was thinking 'god'

bobbyhackettscornet (whatever), Sunday, 23 January 2011 22:56 (3 years ago) Permalink

you're a weird dude, hermann g neuname xp

HOOS the master?? STEEN NUFF (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Sunday, 23 January 2011 22:56 (3 years ago) Permalink

cos if you were called kenny god you probably wouldn't want to draw attention to your surname.

bobbyhackettscornet (whatever), Sunday, 23 January 2011 22:57 (3 years ago) Permalink

well whenever i hear kenny g i think get tae fuck and turn it off

xp

Algerian Goalkeeper, Sunday, 23 January 2011 23:00 (3 years ago) Permalink

ilxor you should have a read at http://www.ilxor.com/ILX/ThreadSelectedControllerServlet?boardid=41&threadid=79981

Algerian Goalkeeper, Monday, 24 January 2011 03:04 (3 years ago) Permalink

one specific recommendation for ilxor, knowing your taste:

Also features much of the Art Ensemble of Chicago, whose work both solo and as a group is probably worth exploring for you.

not everything is a campfire (ian), Monday, 24 January 2011 03:29 (3 years ago) Permalink

max roach - percussion bitter sweet

puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Monday, 24 January 2011 03:54 (3 years ago) Permalink

huh never even heard of Claude Delcloo, much less that particular record. but I am a huge fan of Actuel's vinyl reissues of that era of stuff (AEC, Shepp, etc.)

ex-heroin addict tricycle (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 24 January 2011 03:55 (3 years ago) Permalink

Kenny G = Kenny Gorelick.

You can see why he went with just "G"

hey boys, suppers on me, our video just went bacterial (Hurting 2), Monday, 24 January 2011 05:27 (3 years ago) Permalink

Hey, I think I heard that Claude Decloo on the radio once and missed what it was, and I've been trying to figure it out since then. It's pretty great.

hey boys, suppers on me, our video just went bacterial (Hurting 2), Monday, 24 January 2011 05:39 (3 years ago) Permalink

in 2009/2010 i picked up more jazz than anything else.

predominantly this involved the miles davis legacy reissues, and a lot of RVG reissues as they were cheap-n-cheerful in my local fopp.
while i have read the comments elsewhere re the RVG reissues the simple fact of the matter is that they are readily available, and for newcomers like me, are an easy way-in to discovering what area of jazz suits my requirements the best.
as for recommendations ?

well, i fell hard for the in a silent way > on the corner era of davis, which basically provides an album for every mood.
not ventured too much into the pre IASW stuff other than a kind of blue of course.

but my faves seems to all hang off donald byrd; from his groovy funk of royal flush and the cat walk, to the experimental but sublime beauty of a new perspective, before he delved into the more fusion styled electric byrd, these albums are never far from the stereo.

and to think i had decided that in 2011 i was going to try and get back into the modern world, as this stuff can become very addictive once you tune in, so threads like this can become very dangerous !

mark e, Monday, 24 January 2011 09:47 (3 years ago) Permalink

true!

bert, Monday, 24 January 2011 11:52 (3 years ago) Permalink

mark u need to hear the second quintet stiff just prior to in a silent way. Best. Music. Ever

bert, Monday, 24 January 2011 11:54 (3 years ago) Permalink

i actually forgot, i have gone back from IASW : filles de .. & miles in the sky

clearly i need to spend more time with them.

mark e, Monday, 24 January 2011 11:59 (3 years ago) Permalink

I wrote about tenor saxophonist Ike Quebec on BurningAmbulance.com today. He was a 1940s guy who made a comeback, recording five albums' worth of material in 1961 and 1962, then died of cancer. All his albums are worth hearing, as is a two-CD compilation of non-album jukebox singles. Here's the link.

that's not funny. (unperson), Monday, 24 January 2011 13:09 (3 years ago) Permalink

that's not a bad deal, actually... 52 albums, $300, something like $5 and change per album O_O

the new mordant & zingy ilxor persona (ilxor), Monday, 24 January 2011 14:48 (3 years ago) Permalink

i got it last year for xmas (2009 xmas) £70 i think the price was.

Algerian Goalkeeper, Monday, 24 January 2011 14:51 (3 years ago) Permalink

it's £126 in the UK now http://www.play.com/Music/CD/4-/11876982/The-Complete-Columbia-Album-Collection/Product.html?ptsl=1&ob=Price&fb=0&;searchstring=miles+davis+complete&searchtype=allproducts&searchsource=0&urlrefer=search

Algerian Goalkeeper, Monday, 24 January 2011 14:52 (3 years ago) Permalink

Think I'll go with the last option there. ;)

the new mordant & zingy ilxor persona (ilxor), Monday, 24 January 2011 15:07 (3 years ago) Permalink

don't those all come in cardboard sleeves that come apart ?
a local shop had a bunch of them in a cut-out promo drawer and just picking them up to look @ condition of the sleeve/cd resulted in the sleeve coming apart where the glue had been applied.

mark e, Monday, 24 January 2011 15:12 (3 years ago) Permalink

They fixed that problem I think - but yeah, check out all the one-star reviews at http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B002EOF7U8/ref=s9_simh_gw_p15_d0_i2

Can your monkey do the Bot? (seandalai), Monday, 24 January 2011 15:15 (3 years ago) Permalink

I'm happy just picking up all the Miles albums one by one (they're cheap used...) and taking my time, I think. Shelled out $3 for Water Babies over the weekend, which I don't think anyone's recommended thus far. Looks like mid '70s Miles. Thoughts?

the new mordant & zingy ilxor persona (ilxor), Monday, 24 January 2011 15:46 (3 years ago) Permalink

My initial thought was "Whoa -- that cover art would NOT fly in 2011..."

the new mordant & zingy ilxor persona (ilxor), Monday, 24 January 2011 15:46 (3 years ago) Permalink

I love Water Babies (it's actually a 60s album). It's not as canonical, but it's got good examples of both the 60s style and the transition into the more rock-influenced stuff.

hey boys, suppers on me, our video just went bacterial (Hurting 2), Monday, 24 January 2011 15:47 (3 years ago) Permalink

The last track (Dual Mr. Anthony Tillman Williams Process) is one of my favorite Miles things.

hey boys, suppers on me, our video just went bacterial (Hurting 2), Monday, 24 January 2011 15:48 (3 years ago) Permalink

Yeah, Water Babies is totally overlooked 'cause it was recorded in '67/'68 but not released until '76, when Miles was in his hermit phase.

that's not funny. (unperson), Monday, 24 January 2011 16:12 (3 years ago) Permalink

not released until '76

Ah, so that explains why I thought it was mid '70s -- checked the copyright date on the CD.

the new mordant & zingy ilxor persona (ilxor), Monday, 24 January 2011 16:12 (3 years ago) Permalink

yeah water babies is actually my fave 60s era record

HOOS the master?? STEEN NUFF (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Monday, 24 January 2011 22:38 (3 years ago) Permalink

Listening to Weather Report's Live in Tokyo (2CD version) for the first time today. If, like me, you think of Weather Report as the makers of shitty, "funky" prog-fuzak, you really need to hear this, Skronky and rockin' - it's like Miles circa 1970 (Live-Evil, not Jack Johnson), minus Miles, basically.

that's not funny. (unperson), Tuesday, 25 January 2011 18:30 (3 years ago) Permalink

If, like me, you think of Weather Report as the makers of shitty, "funky" prog-fuzak, you really need to hear this

Lol - ok, i'll take the bait.

sarahel, Tuesday, 25 January 2011 18:37 (3 years ago) Permalink

i do kinda love the phrase "prog-fuzak"

HOOS the master?? STEEN NUFF (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Wednesday, 26 January 2011 00:07 (3 years ago) Permalink

would also really stump for weather report capo joe zawinul's self-titled debut (i think?) album....recommended if you like "in a silent way" by miles

jaco sux tho

smang a goon (get it on) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Wednesday, 26 January 2011 00:09 (3 years ago) Permalink

to the experimental but sublime beauty of a new perspective

omg this album. so awesome

ex-heroin addict tricycle (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 26 January 2011 00:12 (3 years ago) Permalink

that would be a way better title

j., Wednesday, 26 January 2011 06:25 (3 years ago) Permalink

Guys I will post my impressions of some more jazz albums soon. I've heard about a half-dozen things I've enjoyed once apiece, really need to sit down and sink my teeth into one of them in more depth... there's so much to hear!

the new mordant & zingy ilxor persona (ilxor), Wednesday, 26 January 2011 17:15 (3 years ago) Permalink

yeah this thread has kinda gone nuts since yr last post afaik

HOOS the master?? STEEN NUFF (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Wednesday, 26 January 2011 21:47 (3 years ago) Permalink

YOU NEED TO LISTEN TO IT ALL NOW
[but srsly, don't get burnt out on it, take it slow, feel the vibrations]

tylerw, Wednesday, 26 January 2011 21:49 (3 years ago) Permalink

Ornette Coleman – The Shape of Jazz to Come (1959)

I’ve picked up a dozen or so jazz albums in the last week or so, most of them recommendations from this thread, and given many of them a cursory listen (with varying degrees of intrigue, which I’ll get to in time). This album by Ornette Coleman immediately bowled me over, though, and gets better with each spin.

I’ve heard various asides about this album’s significance over the year, mainly that it’s thought of as a “blueprint” for free jazz, or a groundbreaking record of sorts, due to the lack of melodic structure underneath the sax and trumpet parts (hope I’m somewhat on target with that...), and I can hear the appeal. Ornette’s playing doesn’t feel tied down to anything because I’m not hearing anything that could possibly hold it back. The bass and drum parts provide a sense of rhythm, but nothing melodic to instruct Ornette what to play, which scales to follow, or where to take each of these pieces.

One of the biggest things that stands out about this album is the interplay between Ornette’s sax and Don Cherry’s trumpet playing (had to check out the liners to get his name). I hear them often playing essentially the same parts but not quite in sync, one of them coming onto a note, or series of notes, just a split-second before the other, which I find wonderfully pleasing and exciting. Occasionally, one of them takes center stage. I find the playing extremely varied in mood as well: for example, the frantic and spazzy runs on “Eventually” followed by the nearly 10 minutes of peace on “Peace” -- no better title for that tune, surely!

I’m guessing due to the overlapping trumpet and sax parts that The Shape of Jazz to Come was written before it was played, but I do get an overwhelming sense of improvisation, exploration and freedom in Ornette’s playing here. It doesn’t sound like he’s reading sheet music while playing, just closing his eyes and then playing what comes to him in the moment.

Whatever the case, I absolutely love this album. Love it love it love it. More, please!

Rating: ✰✰✰✰✰

the new mordant & zingy ilxor persona (ilxor), Friday, 28 January 2011 16:55 (3 years ago) Permalink

ilxor, in most jazz there is a written "head" or melody that the melodic instruments play together usually at the beginning and end of a song, and then a set of chord changes they improvise over. Ornette's move was to keep that "head" but to remove the chord changes. So you're right that at the beginning and end they're playing a written part, but after that they're improvising and in a looser/freer way than on almost all jazz records up to that point.

hey boys, suppers on me, our video just went bacterial (Hurting 2), Friday, 28 January 2011 17:00 (3 years ago) Permalink

That makes sense, kinda... at some point I'll clearly need to read up and understand music and jazz theory a bit more.

the new mordant & zingy ilxor persona (ilxor), Friday, 28 January 2011 18:29 (3 years ago) Permalink

lol, tbh, you could read ornette's explanations of these things for a decade and not really decode what he's talking about. His interviews are fun to read, but they are pretty out there.

tylerw, Friday, 28 January 2011 18:34 (3 years ago) Permalink

like this:
The key represents the scale that you’re shooting but it doesn’t represent the quality of how long it takes to get rid of the notes of the key that you’re in. For some reason there’s at least, I would say, five notes that is always free of some key, and because of that it kind of slows down what we call improvising because, the improvising is the name of the key but the notes are different than the key. For instance what I’m trying to say about they key of the notes. When you’re shooting, when you’re playing within the rules, it’s not the same thing as when you’re playing the sound. Because the sound is mostly dominated by the name of the key that you’re in. But, if you’re in the key of C, you know, there’s not a C sharp and there’s not a B flat. So all of those things have something to do with how you transform, what I would say has something to do with the tonic. And transposing things from a dominant seventh to a fourth or a fifth or a sixth like that, that doesn’t have anything to do with nothing but your brain. Everything else has something to do with your eyes and your ears.
that's actually one of the more straightforward quotes

tylerw, Friday, 28 January 2011 18:36 (3 years ago) Permalink

hurting otm

bows don't kill people, arrows do (Jordan), Friday, 28 January 2011 18:38 (3 years ago) Permalink

Ornette is one of my favorite interview subjects ever

ex-heroin addict tricycle (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 28 January 2011 18:43 (3 years ago) Permalink

Anyone seen the Derrida interviews Coleman thing?

http://itself.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/theotherslanguage.pdf

emil.y, Friday, 28 January 2011 18:45 (3 years ago) Permalink

I had never really gotten into Ornette until a few years ago (got to see him play at the Masonic Hall too, which was amazing) but yeah in a weird way I was taken aback by how straightforward a lot of the early stuff is. I didn't immediately understand why this was seen as such a big break - it certainly doesn't sound as "free" as, say, Ascension or Free Jazz. a lot of it is really quite restrained and pretty. and he DOES almost invariably stick to the format of head-improvised section-head, whereas originally I was expecting stuff that didn't even have that kind of rudimentary structure.

very inventive though, have come to love this stuff. it really grabs yr attention.

ex-heroin addict tricycle (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 28 January 2011 18:46 (3 years ago) Permalink

no! my head sorta hurts just seeing the words "Derrida interviews Coleman" xpost

tylerw, Friday, 28 January 2011 18:46 (3 years ago) Permalink

my favorite part of ornette's thing is the melodies

bows don't kill people, arrows do (Jordan), Friday, 28 January 2011 18:52 (3 years ago) Permalink

Been looking up some of you guys' recommendations. Looks like this one may be a bit hard to come across on CD...

World Galaxy by Alice Coltrane (Audio CD - 2004) - Import

4 new from $89.97
2 used from $171.40

O_O

the new mordant & zingy ilxor persona (ilxor), Friday, 28 January 2011 18:57 (3 years ago) Permalink

Just counted... I have 160 distinct album recommendations from this thread. Mind = blown. Thanks everyone!!

the new mordant & zingy ilxor persona (ilxor), Friday, 28 January 2011 19:25 (3 years ago) Permalink

Now, excuse me while I post a PayPal "Donate to ilxor's jazz buying fund" button. ;)

the new mordant & zingy ilxor persona (ilxor), Friday, 28 January 2011 19:25 (3 years ago) Permalink

mm I can upload World Galaxy somewhere for you

ex-heroin addict tricycle (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 28 January 2011 20:01 (3 years ago) Permalink

my favorite part of ornette's thing is the melodies

― bows don't kill people, arrows do (Jordan), Friday, January 28, 2011 1:52 PM Bookmark

Mine too. (1) they are really pretty and (2) they contain all these little 'jokes' about jazz imo. I mean his music is very, very funny if you've listened to enough jazz, because he kind of punctures cliches.

hey boys, suppers on me, our video just went bacterial (Hurting 2), Friday, 28 January 2011 20:05 (3 years ago) Permalink

The simplest way to explain Ornette (and it's super-reductive but basically true) is that he improvises based on the melody, not based on the chords. So his solos often sound like a little kid singing a song to himself that he's making up on the spot. (I think this is a major reason why little kids tend to like Ornette's music.)

that's not funny. (unperson), Friday, 28 January 2011 20:15 (3 years ago) Permalink

yeah, that makes sense to me. (btw coleman even got his 10 year old to be his drummer at some point in the 60s/70s)

tylerw, Friday, 28 January 2011 20:18 (3 years ago) Permalink

Denardo is still drumming for his dad (and managing him, now, too).

that's not funny. (unperson), Friday, 28 January 2011 20:20 (3 years ago) Permalink

One of the biggest things that stands out about this album is the interplay between Ornette’s sax and Don Cherry’s trumpet playing (had to check out the liners to get his name)

Yeah definitely! And though you're not short of recommendations, most of Don Cherry's own records are excellent in their own right if you see any of them going cheap. Mu is awesome, so is Brown Rice.

seminal fuiud (NickB), Friday, 28 January 2011 20:23 (3 years ago) Permalink

xpost yeah! does he/has he ever made recordings with other people? some of the early stuff he's on is pretty ehhh, but he's definitely a killer drummer. he might be my favorite part of that recent sound grammar record.

tylerw, Friday, 28 January 2011 20:24 (3 years ago) Permalink

My favorite Don Cherry record is Eternal Rhythm, with a bunch of European players and Sonny Sharrock. Awesome.

that's not funny. (unperson), Friday, 28 January 2011 20:44 (3 years ago) Permalink

Haven't heard that one, thanks for the tip!

seminal fuiud (NickB), Friday, 28 January 2011 20:48 (3 years ago) Permalink

i have to say, i don't really care for 80s skronky ornette.

one goal of mine for this year is to check out the keith jarrett quartet with dewey redman, charlie haden, and paul motian. i've been meaning to get to that stuff for ages.

bows don't kill people, arrows do (Jordan), Friday, 28 January 2011 20:49 (3 years ago) Permalink

^ ilxor, I swear to god, this will 100% totally appeal to your Can-loving self

seminal fuiud (NickB), Friday, 28 January 2011 20:50 (3 years ago) Permalink

also there's a ton of contemporary jazz i like that i think would go down well on rock ears (the bad plus, the inbetweens), but if i was going to toss only one more recommendation on to the pile it would be something by the brian blade fellowship. probably "season of changes". such a great mix of serious playing with great melody, folk influences, etc.

bows don't kill people, arrows do (Jordan), Friday, 28 January 2011 20:51 (3 years ago) Permalink

NickB, I just started the video you linked but I'd be tempted to buy it for the artwork, regardless.

the new mordant & zingy ilxor persona (ilxor), Friday, 28 January 2011 20:53 (3 years ago) Permalink

yes Denardo is still his drummer and he's amazing

ex-heroin addict tricycle (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 28 January 2011 20:53 (3 years ago) Permalink

seconding Mu and Brown Rice, definitely. Ed Blackwell! unfuckwithable

ex-heroin addict tricycle (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 28 January 2011 20:54 (3 years ago) Permalink

Brown Rice was one of those things I heard and was like "people call this a JAZZ record?"

ex-heroin addict tricycle (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 28 January 2011 20:55 (3 years ago) Permalink

also, here's a repository of totally amazing interviews & jazz writing by ethan iverson (pianist for the bad plus):

http://dothemath.typepad.com/dtm/contents.html

bows don't kill people, arrows do (Jordan), Friday, 28 January 2011 20:55 (3 years ago) Permalink

Been looking up some of you guys' recommendations. Looks like this one may be a bit hard to come across on CD...

World Galaxy by Alice Coltrane (Audio CD - 2004) - Import

4 new from $89.97
2 used from $171.40

O_O

World Galaxy has only been reissued on CD in Japan, hence the prize. Anyway, in my opinion you should get Alice's "Universal Consciousness", which is much cheaper. "Universal Consciousness" has a similar sound to "World Galaxy", but it's better. And it's more "jazz" too, if jazz means improvisation - World Galaxy mostly has just pre-written strings. It's not a bad album (the version of "A Love Supreme" on it is pretty great), but not worth the high prize you have to pay for it.

Tuomas, Friday, 28 January 2011 20:59 (3 years ago) Permalink

Aaaaand (surprise!) the music's fantastic, too.

xp to NickB

the new mordant & zingy ilxor persona (ilxor), Friday, 28 January 2011 21:01 (3 years ago) Permalink

i'm sure a quick google search would reveal a galaxy of download options. xpost

tylerw, Friday, 28 January 2011 21:02 (3 years ago) Permalink

Tumoas is right that Universal Consciousness is the better of the two (and I prefer Journey in Satchidananda to both)

ex-heroin addict tricycle (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 28 January 2011 21:04 (3 years ago) Permalink

journey's definitely the one to start with

tylerw, Friday, 28 January 2011 21:04 (3 years ago) Permalink

Soliciting opinions on a few others I've seen in used bins lately:

Derek Bailey - Music and Dance (Is this even jazz? I believe it's on Fahey's Revenant label...)
Peter Brotzmann - Machine Gun
Andrew Hill - Point of Departure
Thelonious Monk - Straight, No Chaser
Sun Ra - The Futuristic Sounds of Sun Ra
Cecil Taylor - Jazz Advance

the new mordant & zingy ilxor persona (ilxor), Friday, 28 January 2011 21:05 (3 years ago) Permalink

Machine Gun is a MUST HAVE.

earnest goes to camp, ironic goes to ilm (pixel farmer), Friday, 28 January 2011 21:06 (3 years ago) Permalink

What's it like?

the new mordant & zingy ilxor persona (ilxor), Friday, 28 January 2011 21:07 (3 years ago) Permalink

It is one of the sacred texts of European Free Improv. You might not like it, but it will teach you about that whole scene.

earnest goes to camp, ironic goes to ilm (pixel farmer), Friday, 28 January 2011 21:08 (3 years ago) Permalink

eter Brotzmann - Machine Gun
Andrew Hill - Point of Departure
Thelonious Monk - Straight, No Chaser

go buy NOW

Algerian Goalkeeper, Friday, 28 January 2011 21:08 (3 years ago) Permalink

machine gun will blow your head off

Algerian Goalkeeper, Friday, 28 January 2011 21:08 (3 years ago) Permalink

would definitely rep for Machine Gun - it's awesome and "highly influential" on a bunch of music that came later that fused jazz with punk and noise.

sarahel, Friday, 28 January 2011 21:09 (3 years ago) Permalink

Derek Bailey would loudly insist that his music was not jazz.

hey boys, suppers on me, our video just went bacterial (Hurting 2), Friday, 28 January 2011 21:09 (3 years ago) Permalink

I wrote about all eight of the Jarrett quartet's Impulse! albums on my blog in '09; you can read that stuff here:

http://runningthevoodoodown.blogspot.com/search?q=keith+jarrett

that's not funny. (unperson), Friday, 28 January 2011 21:09 (3 years ago) Permalink

xp - derek bailey is dead

sarahel, Friday, 28 January 2011 21:10 (3 years ago) Permalink

Also saw:

Peter Brotzmann & Bill Laswell - Low Life

the new mordant & zingy ilxor persona (ilxor), Friday, 28 January 2011 21:10 (3 years ago) Permalink

Derek Bailey would loudly insist that his music was not jazz.

― hey boys, suppers on me, our video just went bacterial (Hurting 2), Friday, January 28, 2011 3:09 PM (27 seconds ago)

xp - derek bailey is dead

― sarahel, Friday, January 28, 2011 3:10 PM (3 seconds ago)

Quietly, then.

the new mordant & zingy ilxor persona (ilxor), Friday, 28 January 2011 21:10 (3 years ago) Permalink

I know that's why I said "would" and "was"

(xp)

hey boys, suppers on me, our video just went bacterial (Hurting 2), Friday, 28 January 2011 21:10 (3 years ago) Permalink

machine gun will blow your head off

ex-heroin addict tricycle (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 28 January 2011 21:11 (3 years ago) Permalink

Machine Gun: Noisy, harsh, brief sketches of themes, but mostly eight guys blowing at the same time until the veins stand out on their necks. I think it's beautiful and cathartic, myself.

xp - Low Life is excellent, found that one for $1, chaching!

earnest goes to camp, ironic goes to ilm (pixel farmer), Friday, 28 January 2011 21:11 (3 years ago) Permalink

I think Low Life was $4.99, I may wait to see if it comes around at a lower price...

the new mordant & zingy ilxor persona (ilxor), Friday, 28 January 2011 21:12 (3 years ago) Permalink

xp - well, it would be more accurate to say that he insisted - past tense - and that would get us into EFI vs. EAI history

sarahel, Friday, 28 January 2011 21:12 (3 years ago) Permalink

though there's a funny story involving the Derek Bailey memorial concert that John Zorn organized.

sarahel, Friday, 28 January 2011 21:14 (3 years ago) Permalink

I wrote about all eight of the Jarrett quartet's Impulse! albums on my blog in '09; you can read that stuff here:

awesome!

especially since the '73 - '90 essay on Do the Math (who are huge champions of those records) basically says "they're all great"

bows don't kill people, arrows do (Jordan), Friday, 28 January 2011 21:19 (3 years ago) Permalink

i have a friend who calls them "the double plus bad"

sarahel, Friday, 28 January 2011 21:20 (3 years ago) Permalink

yeah those are cool essays on the impulse years -- i'm pretty unschooled when it comes to that period (and a lot of jarrett actually).

tylerw, Friday, 28 January 2011 21:20 (3 years ago) Permalink

emil.y thanks for the link to the derrida/ornette text, think i'm going to enjoy reading that.

bobbyhackettscornet (whatever), Friday, 28 January 2011 21:21 (3 years ago) Permalink

i have a friend who calls them "the double plus bad"

good story

bows don't kill people, arrows do (Jordan), Friday, 28 January 2011 21:27 (3 years ago) Permalink

The points of convergence and divergence between free jazz and free improv are, like, the most interesting thing in all of music to me. Bailey -- definitely not jazz. But he occasionally played on jazz records. (Tony Oxley's The Baptised Traveller, highly recommended.)

earnest goes to camp, ironic goes to ilm (pixel farmer), Friday, 28 January 2011 21:28 (3 years ago) Permalink

xp - oh, that's not the funny story -- the story was:

Zorn had kinda a long-standing beef w/Henry Kaiser (about what, I don't know, but Zorn is known for holding grudges), but because Bailey and HK were really close, it would've looked really bad if Zorn didn't invite Henry to play the memorial concert. The format for the concert, I believe, was a series of short duos. So, Zorn grudgingly contacts Henry, and asks him who he wanted to play a duo with, and HK says, gleefully, "I want to play with you, John!"

sarahel, Friday, 28 January 2011 21:31 (3 years ago) Permalink

The Bad Plus are alright. I like their drummer a lot. I find something a little unimaginative about their arrangements, but I guess they're a decent way to come to jazz aesthetics/approach starting from rock.

hey boys, suppers on me, our video just went bacterial (Hurting 2), Friday, 28 January 2011 21:35 (3 years ago) Permalink

eh, it depends on what type of rock you are starting from

sarahel, Friday, 28 January 2011 21:35 (3 years ago) Permalink

but yeah, Hurting, that's largely my friend's problem with them: unimaginative and "safe"

sarahel, Friday, 28 January 2011 21:37 (3 years ago) Permalink

Should I look into John Zorn? (Is he generally considered "jazz," or more just totally fucked-up experimental madness or whatever he typically does?)

the new mordant & zingy ilxor persona (ilxor), Friday, 28 January 2011 21:43 (3 years ago) Permalink

John Zorn is extremely prolific.

sarahel, Friday, 28 January 2011 21:43 (3 years ago) Permalink

Well, yes, that much I know.

the new mordant & zingy ilxor persona (ilxor), Friday, 28 January 2011 21:44 (3 years ago) Permalink

He's done a lot of jazz albums and a lot of albums that aren't jazz.

sarahel, Friday, 28 January 2011 21:45 (3 years ago) Permalink

but yeah, Hurting, that's largely my friend's problem with them: unimaginative and "safe"

that is dumb

bows don't kill people, arrows do (Jordan), Friday, 28 January 2011 21:49 (3 years ago) Permalink

why is it dumb, Jordan? It's the same problem that countless people have with Vampire Weekend. The Bad Plus are kinda the Vampire Weekend of jazz.

sarahel, Friday, 28 January 2011 21:50 (3 years ago) Permalink

Like when I saw them live I remember doing "Everybody Wants to Rule the World" and at first it just kind of sounded like a transcription of the original for jazz instruments, and then when they would throw in little dissonances and off-kilter things they seemed like very predictable off-kilter things.

hey boys, suppers on me, our video just went bacterial (Hurting 2), Friday, 28 January 2011 21:53 (3 years ago) Permalink

remember THEM doing

hey boys, suppers on me, our video just went bacterial (Hurting 2), Friday, 28 January 2011 21:53 (3 years ago) Permalink

that comparison doesn't make sense to me, like, at all?

to me the bad plus do a pretty amazing job of combining a lot of things that could have been a mess - melody vs atonality, really precise rhythmic stuff vs free playing, respect for jazz vs a really sincere embrace of rock and pop. imo people get hung up on a couple of their "covers", and don't really listen to what they're doing.

also dave king is one of the very best & most singular drummers of his generation, along with chris dave and brian blade.

bows don't kill people, arrows do (Jordan), Friday, 28 January 2011 21:56 (3 years ago) Permalink

I think Mehldau does most of what they do much better.

hey boys, suppers on me, our video just went bacterial (Hurting 2), Friday, 28 January 2011 21:59 (3 years ago) Permalink

you mean the trio stuff?

bows don't kill people, arrows do (Jordan), Friday, 28 January 2011 22:00 (3 years ago) Permalink

I mean pretty much everything where he has done rock covers including with the trio.

hey boys, suppers on me, our video just went bacterial (Hurting 2), Friday, 28 January 2011 22:02 (3 years ago) Permalink

First off, I don't dislike The Bad Plus or Vampire Weekend -- pleasant, but not really my thing.

well, they are educated, nice, non-black boys playing traditionally African-American music, for one. They are critically acclaimed by the educated white boy East Coast tastemakers. Their music fuses different elements, as you mentioned. It is well-crafted. It is tidy. But it takes music that was originally associated with a certain ecstatic quality, and make it kinda tidy and mannered. And there's a lot of race-based baggage/connotations in this that many contemporary white guys playing free jazz have to negotiate/come to terms with. And maybe we don't want to go there in this thread.

sarahel, Friday, 28 January 2011 22:04 (3 years ago) Permalink

takes music that was originally associated with a certain ecstatic quality, and make it kinda tidy and mannered

ok sorry no

hey boys, suppers on me, our video just went bacterial (Hurting 2), Friday, 28 January 2011 22:06 (3 years ago) Permalink

that's not gonna fly

hey boys, suppers on me, our video just went bacterial (Hurting 2), Friday, 28 January 2011 22:06 (3 years ago) Permalink

well, they are educated, nice, non-black boys playing traditionally African-American music, for one.

fuck off with that shit

bows don't kill people, arrows do (Jordan), Friday, 28 January 2011 22:06 (3 years ago) Permalink

I mean you want to talk about racial baggage you just chalked yourself up a few extra check-in fees.

hey boys, suppers on me, our video just went bacterial (Hurting 2), Friday, 28 January 2011 22:07 (3 years ago) Permalink

(xpost)

hey boys, suppers on me, our video just went bacterial (Hurting 2), Friday, 28 January 2011 22:07 (3 years ago) Permalink

i mean i don't even know where to start

bows don't kill people, arrows do (Jordan), Friday, 28 January 2011 22:07 (3 years ago) Permalink

excuse me? I mean, if you want to ignore the racial aspects of jazz, go ahead, but they exist, and I'm sure you know, it's a long-standing issue.

sarahel, Friday, 28 January 2011 22:07 (3 years ago) Permalink

Back to old-school jazz (let's not derail too far, please) -- anyone heard Jazz Advance, that Cecil Taylor album I posted abt upthread? Is it any good, or are there other records of his that I should look to?

the new mordant & zingy ilxor persona (ilxor), Friday, 28 January 2011 22:08 (3 years ago) Permalink

Right, the racial aspects, e.g white people deciding that jazz is about "a certain ecstatic quality" that black people bring to the music and that stiff boring white people fail to get.

hey boys, suppers on me, our video just went bacterial (Hurting 2), Friday, 28 January 2011 22:08 (3 years ago) Permalink

i'm not saying that I agree with that argument, I'm just pointing out that that argument exists.

sarahel, Friday, 28 January 2011 22:09 (3 years ago) Permalink

God forbid someone bring a "tidy, mannered" quality to the music of, say, Duke Ellington.

hey boys, suppers on me, our video just went bacterial (Hurting 2), Friday, 28 January 2011 22:09 (3 years ago) Permalink

but we're not talking about Duke Ellington -- Jordan was talking about how The Bad Plus incorporates improv and free jazz.

sarahel, Friday, 28 January 2011 22:10 (3 years ago) Permalink

Please can we move on from this derail, guys?

(Or else take this convo somewhere else: Racial issues in music, perhaps?)

the new mordant & zingy ilxor persona (ilxor), Friday, 28 January 2011 22:11 (3 years ago) Permalink

Re: Cecil Taylor, I don't know much of his stuff but Conquistador! is one of my favourite jazz records of all time. It is very much what I like about jazz, though, and your mileage might vary - not here will ye find any of that cool smooth tuneful shit.

emil.y, Friday, 28 January 2011 22:13 (3 years ago) Permalink

I'm just trying to explain why some people, including my friend, dislike The Bad Plus. And it's kinda related to why some people dislike Vampire Weekend.

sarahel, Friday, 28 January 2011 22:14 (3 years ago) Permalink

There is a lot of great playing on Zorn's jazz records, but I wouldn't necessarily put them ahead of any of the recommendations already on the thread. If you want one disc by the original Masada quartet, I'd say Hei, because "Hobah" is mindblowing to me. I'd put higher stock in a couple other 2CD sets that were recorded early on after Zorn wrote the first book of Masada pieces, when all the NY downtown players were just seeing the material for the first time and bringing everything they had to it. Bar Kokhba: Masada Chamber Ensembles is a hodgepodge of different lineups (string trio, piano trio, clarinet/organ, trumpet/clarinet/organ/drums, etc). The Circle Maker has one disc of string trio and one disc of the same trio plus drums, percussion and amazing guitar by Marc Ribot.

earnest goes to camp, ironic goes to ilm (pixel farmer), Friday, 28 January 2011 22:14 (3 years ago) Permalink

I don't care for VW and may check out The Bad Plus at some point. Doesn't strike me as a priority for now. Regardless, I'd just prefer we not derail into 100+ posts on racial issues in jazz. Another thread, perhaps...

xp to sarahel

the new mordant & zingy ilxor persona (ilxor), Friday, 28 January 2011 22:16 (3 years ago) Permalink

And yes, I realize the irony of me asking other ILXors not to derail threads (my speciality, oftentimes).

the new mordant & zingy ilxor persona (ilxor), Friday, 28 January 2011 22:16 (3 years ago) Permalink

Right, the racial aspects, e.g white people deciding that jazz is about "a certain ecstatic quality" that black people bring to the music and that stiff boring white people fail to get.

― hey boys, suppers on me, our video just went bacterial (Hurting 2), Friday, January 28, 2011 2:08 PM (6 minutes ago)

Exactly -- it's definitely problematic.

sarahel, Friday, 28 January 2011 22:17 (3 years ago) Permalink

Zorn's film music is pretty good. The Cobra stuff is also worth listening to.

sarahel, Friday, 28 January 2011 22:18 (3 years ago) Permalink

Zorn strikes me as perhaps needing a whole separate investigation. Pretty unwieldy catalog. May check him out at some point...

the new mordant & zingy ilxor persona (ilxor), Friday, 28 January 2011 22:19 (3 years ago) Permalink

your friend's ideas about race & aesthetics here are all twisted up imo. i'd love to stay and argue that the bad plus are neither co-opting nor watering down whatever your friend's idea of what free jazz should be, but i'm out for the weekend.

xp

bows don't kill people, arrows do (Jordan), Friday, 28 January 2011 22:19 (3 years ago) Permalink

this used to be a good thread

Algerian Goalkeeper, Friday, 28 January 2011 22:21 (3 years ago) Permalink

Zorn strikes me as perhaps needing a whole separate investigation. Pretty unwieldy catalog. May check him out at some point...

yes, definitely worthy of investigation, but not necessarily as part of your jazz research. He's a lot like Frank Zappa -- a composer above all, arranging the works for different ensembles depending on their needs. (In FZ's case, he arranged his work mostly for midsize rock band because it paid the bills and gave him total freedom.) Speaking of FZ, have his jazz albums been mentioned here? There are three classics, four if you count Ponty's King Kong.

earnest goes to camp, ironic goes to ilm (pixel farmer), Friday, 28 January 2011 22:26 (3 years ago) Permalink

my friend is a white guy who came up listening to punk rock, then got into free jazz and improv and played with European EFI dudes as well as a lot of Bay Area African-American old school free jazz dudes. He does have some skewed ideas about jazz, but basically, he thinks The Bad Plus suck, and he's applying arguments to The Bad Plus that denigrate them and what they do, primarily because he thinks they suck. This seems very common on ILX.

sarahel, Friday, 28 January 2011 22:26 (3 years ago) Permalink

And please do check out Archie Shepp. FIRE MUSIC!!
Yes! And "Four for Trane"

Seeing that you were moved by Ornette, don't forget to search out his later, electric sounds: Of Human Feelings, Body Meta, and Dancing In Your Head...(if you want to get ridiculous about the early stuff, Beauty Is A Rare Thing has all you need)

Some might cringe at the concept, but this is amazing:

Sanford, Friday, 28 January 2011 22:35 (3 years ago) Permalink

Sanford, Friday, 28 January 2011 22:36 (3 years ago) Permalink

fair enough. have to admit i don't have much respect for free jazz dudes who haven't spent some time playing other kinds of jazz, paying dues.

bows don't kill people, arrows do (Jordan), Friday, 28 January 2011 22:36 (3 years ago) Permalink

Body Meta is great. And if Ornette rocks your world, it might be worth your while to check out Albert Ayler.

sarahel, Friday, 28 January 2011 22:37 (3 years ago) Permalink

(fer christsakes)

James Carter/Cyrus Chestnut/Ali Jackson/Reginald Veal - Gold Sounds (tribute to Pavement)

Sanford, Friday, 28 January 2011 22:37 (3 years ago) Permalink

xp Jordan: he played whatever Glenn Spearman asked him to play, because it was Glenn Spearman's band, and dude was a legend.

sarahel, Friday, 28 January 2011 22:40 (3 years ago) Permalink

fwiw all the great jazz musicians i know in my generation (most of whom are primarily involved in non-jazz music these days) have a fraught relationship with jazz. but even the guys who are really dedicated to free music have done their homework and can play anything if necessary.

bows don't kill people, arrows do (Jordan), Friday, 28 January 2011 22:41 (3 years ago) Permalink

Even Derek Bailey put in his time on session work and dance bands and whatnot.

earnest goes to camp, ironic goes to ilm (pixel farmer), Friday, 28 January 2011 22:43 (3 years ago) Permalink

http://sickmouthy.wordpress.com/2011/01/16/top-ten-jazz-albums

I suspect my taste in jazz doesn't intersect massively with many other people on ILM. But we have lots if crossover in other areas so maybe you'll get some mileage from this.

Also, Courtney Pine's Modern Day Jazz Stories and e.s.t's Tuesday Wonderland. Love both of those deeply.

Ukranian crocodile that swallowed a mobile phone (Scik Mouthy), Friday, 28 January 2011 22:51 (3 years ago) Permalink

So...what "Jazz" albums are totally right now, like a live album, especially for someone who never really cared about jazz and wants to make up for lost time? I mean, it's Friday night, no better time for some live jazz!

I Don't Think It's Worth It, Personally.... (u s steel), Friday, 28 January 2011 22:52 (3 years ago) Permalink

Black Saint and Sinner Lady is a great album.

My dad's a big Cannonball Adderley fan.

sarahel, Friday, 28 January 2011 22:52 (3 years ago) Permalink

Freak In by Dave Douglas, too.

Ukranian crocodile that swallowed a mobile phone (Scik Mouthy), Friday, 28 January 2011 22:53 (3 years ago) Permalink

The Impressed with Giles Peterson compilations are awesome collections of 60s British stuff. Michael Garrick etc. Awesome.

Ukranian crocodile that swallowed a mobile phone (Scik Mouthy), Friday, 28 January 2011 22:54 (3 years ago) Permalink

So...what "Jazz" albums are totally right now, like a live album, especially for someone who never really cared about jazz and wants to make up for lost time? I mean, it's Friday night, no better time for some live jazz!

maybe just watch chris dave trio videos on youtube?

bows don't kill people, arrows do (Jordan), Friday, 28 January 2011 22:58 (3 years ago) Permalink

Hmm, in terms of contemporary stuff, there are a lot of good players right now constantly walking the in/out line as I think I've talked about with Jordan. Some names I recommend checking out: Tony Malaby's Tamarindo, Drew Gress, Yeah No, stuff involving Chris Lightcap on bass and Gerald Cleaver on drums (including Chris Lightcap's records as a leader), Chad Taylor's Active Ingredients. Actually you might dig the Chicago Underground Trio and Quartet records since they have some noisy/proggy/spacey electronic elements that sort of bleed into other Chicago stuff a little (they share members with Isotope 217/Tortoise)

Actually I'd really recommend starting off with anything that has both William Parker and Hamid Drake on upright bass and drum kit, respectively (though I love the stuff where they play other instruments). They're definitely a key force in the last few decades of jazz and the direction it has taken, and relatively accessible because they're so rhythm-heavy.

Any of the Brad Mehldau Trio at the Vanugard recordings are great, intense and heady listens.

hey boys, suppers on me, our video just went bacterial (Hurting 2), Friday, 28 January 2011 23:19 (3 years ago) Permalink

And if Ornette rocks your world, it might be worth your while to check out Albert Ayler.

Good call! I actually saw the Ayler box set on Revenant a few months ago and reaaaaally wanted to pick it up (it was still $80 or so, and I passed). That was one of the aching non-purchases I almost made that's made me feel it's time to try my hand with jazz.

That, and everyone posting on Facebook about their favorite jazz albums... ^_^

Saw an Ayler album tonight: New Grass -- how is it?

the new mordant & zingy ilxor persona (ilxor), Saturday, 29 January 2011 00:52 (3 years ago) Permalink

Haven't heard New Grass, but the Allmusic writeup intrigues me:

Possibly the most notorious Albert Ayler release and universally misunderstood (i.e., hated) by fans and critics alike. When New Grass was released in 1968 it received a hostile outcry of "sell-out."

The idea of Ayler aiming his uncompromising full-body style into commercial territory suggests a glorious incongruity. Doesn't sound like the best introduction to the man though. I'll rep for Live at the Village Vanguard forever, though I guess Spiritual Unity is his recognised classic album.

Glenroe in 3D (seandalai), Saturday, 29 January 2011 01:39 (3 years ago) Permalink

Don't go for New Grass as an introduction to Ayler. To hear his early style at its best, get Spiritual Unity. To hear his late style at its best, get Live on the Riviera or Fondation Maeght Nights.

that's not funny. (unperson), Saturday, 29 January 2011 02:20 (3 years ago) Permalink

^this^
and when/if you get around to new grass or just in general have interest in the free dudes going pop, Sharrock's 'Paradise' is a super unique listen

bear, bear, bear, Saturday, 29 January 2011 02:47 (3 years ago) Permalink

I just listened to Paradise last week (because of the Sharrock thread), thought it was excellent. Though I'll keep returning to Black Woman, I guess.

Glenroe in 3D (seandalai), Saturday, 29 January 2011 02:48 (3 years ago) Permalink

both so good

bear, bear, bear, Saturday, 29 January 2011 02:56 (3 years ago) Permalink

DAMN! Thanks for those Chris Dave links. Awesome stuff.

matt2, Saturday, 29 January 2011 02:58 (3 years ago) Permalink

this thread kinda rules. never heard of Paradise (will keep an eye out), but Guitar is desrving of a tonna Sonny love. (the best solo guitar record ever?)
never heard new grass or Live at the Village Vanguard either, but spiritual unity, after a dozen of so listens, hasn't ever really "hit" me, unlike Ornette, who never stops.
just throwing my (asshat) preference out there

KC & the sunshine banned (outdoor_miner), Saturday, 29 January 2011 03:04 (3 years ago) Permalink

This thread is great by the way - I've always had a flirting relationship with jazz but in the past couple of years I've been getting more and more into it, and this is helping me fill in lots of gaps.

Also thank you to the free NW library exchange program that has tons of jazz records that just show up at my office within a couple days if I request them - this week I got Journey to Satchidananda, The Black Saint and the Sinner Lady, and Miles' On The Corner - I've had the complete sessions for that one but not the original record. Also picked up Herbie Hancock's Sextant from Amazon.

joygoat, Saturday, 29 January 2011 03:07 (3 years ago) Permalink

I hope this isn't too much of a derail, but where do I go looking for some Chris Dave stuff. Love this video too:

matt2, Saturday, 29 January 2011 03:23 (3 years ago) Permalink

On some Robert Glasper stuff maybe?

matt2, Saturday, 29 January 2011 03:32 (3 years ago) Permalink

Just chiming in to say Machine Gun never really did it for me, much as I love so much of what came after it--Zorn, Mats G, Evan Parker (<--- this fucking guy), etc, seem so much more dynamic & textured to me.

That said, I love Brotzmann's Tentet stuff. Even if it is the square Brotzmann to like.

HOOS the master?? STEEN NUFF (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Saturday, 29 January 2011 10:17 (3 years ago) Permalink

oh yeah, Evan Parker -- Topography of the Lungs

sarahel, Saturday, 29 January 2011 20:28 (3 years ago) Permalink

I used to like Brötzmann a lot; these days, not so much. I mostly like him in loud electric contexts like with Last Exit or Full Blast, but some of the late '60s stuff is still pretty hot. Nipples and More Nipples are good and worth checking out.

that's not funny. (unperson), Saturday, 29 January 2011 20:47 (3 years ago) Permalink

Happy to take opinions on these records. I don't think I've seen any mentioned in this thread to date (naturally, I'll stop by the record store later this week and pick up the best of the lot):

Derek Bailey - Ballads
Peter Brotzmann - Born Broke
Peter Brotzmann - The Brain of the Dog in Section
Peter Brotzmann - Medicina
Ornette Coleman - The Art of the Improvisers
Ornette Coleman - Sound Grammar
Ornette Coleman - Tomorrow Is the Question
John Coltrane - Ole Coltrane
John Coltrane - Stellar Regions
John Coltrane & Don Cherry - The Avant-Garde
Miles Davis - Black Beauty
Miles Davis - 'Round about Midnight
Joe Henderson - Big Band (the title of this one makes me instinctively recoil in terror...)
Charles Mingus - Oh Yeah
Cecil Taylor - Trance

I also saw generic collections, titled The Impulse Years (or The Impulse Story, I forget?), for John Coltrane, Alice Coltrane and Archie Shepp -- are those worth picking up at some point?

the new mordant & zingy ilxor persona (ilxor), Monday, 31 January 2011 15:04 (3 years ago) Permalink

I hope this isn't too much of a derail, but where do I go looking for some Chris Dave stuff.

imo his recordings don't represent how completely ill he is, yet (although he has a solo record coming out soon), but i would check these out:

robert glasper, "double booked" (still haven't dug into this one yet but one of my friends is into it)

kenny garrett, "happy people"

maxwell, "blacksummer's night" (chris dave sounds great on the whole record, lets loose on "help somebody")

he also has some cuts on the last mint condition record:

bows don't kill people, arrows do (Jordan), Monday, 31 January 2011 15:58 (3 years ago) Permalink

Dude, you should just turn on WKCR right now and listen to the Roy Eldridge 100th birthday tribute and you will get quite an education right there.

Never Make Your Moog Too Soon (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 31 January 2011 15:59 (3 years ago) Permalink

Happy to take opinions on these records. I don't think I've seen any mentioned in this thread to date (naturally, I'll stop by the record store later this week and pick up the best of the lot):

ornette's sound grammar: recent live album, beautiful sound, mix of his 60s-era approach and some atmospheric violin (played better than he's known to...). Critically acclaimed and highly recommended (if you really like this one, go back for art of improvisers...representative of his Atlantic Records output, but not as exceptional as Change of the Century, or Shape of Jazz to Come, for inst.)

Miles' Black Beauty is HEAVY. Includes some electric funk, infinitely better ensemble playing than Miles at Filmore (the one it gets compared to). Marred a little by unbalanced mix of instruments at times, but definitely sounds like nothing else.

Mingus Oh Yeah. Fantastic. Mingus plays piano on this instead of bass. Lots of barrelhouse piano and shouting. Roland Kirk is also all over it...

Impulse years comps are usually great, if they include guys like Shepp, Tolliver, Tyner...it was an impulse comp that introduced me to Archie Shepp and then to indispensable records like Four for Trane and Fire Music...

Sanford, Monday, 31 January 2011 16:27 (3 years ago) Permalink

Thanks, those all sound great!

the new mordant & zingy ilxor persona (ilxor), Monday, 31 January 2011 16:50 (3 years ago) Permalink

John Coltrane & Don Cherry - The Avant-Garde
- this one has always been a little disappointing to me, even tho i love both coltrane and cherry.

tylerw, Monday, 31 January 2011 16:52 (3 years ago) Permalink

How so?

the new mordant & zingy ilxor persona (ilxor), Monday, 31 January 2011 17:11 (3 years ago) Permalink

Derek Bailey - Ballads

^ after years of playing free improv, Bailey went back and revisited some jazz standards, so this isn't exactly typical DB, but it is a really good record and maybe a good way into his whole thing.

seminal fuiud (NickB), Monday, 31 January 2011 17:16 (3 years ago) Permalink

Joe Henderson - Big Band

really really really great record

but i'm a total joe henderson stan and have japanese bootlegs and stuff so

HOOS the master?? STEEN NUFF (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Monday, 31 January 2011 17:17 (3 years ago) Permalink

xpost eh, just doesn't sound very inspired. most of it (all of it?) is made up of ornette compositions, and coltrane doesn't sound very comfortable/sure of himself. not a lot of fireworks betw. the players. more of an interesting experiment than a real success. if you're looking for good stuff from the atlantic era, Ole is a much better bet.

tylerw, Monday, 31 January 2011 17:18 (3 years ago) Permalink

Is that Joe Henderson record actually a big band thing? Usually the words "big band" mean "run for the hills" in my world... but maybe I shouldn't be so hasty.

the new mordant & zingy ilxor persona (ilxor), Monday, 31 January 2011 17:21 (3 years ago) Permalink

Duke Ellington had a big band y'know. so did Count Basie.

ex-heroin addict tricycle (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 31 January 2011 17:30 (3 years ago) Permalink

(no one ever talks about Count Basie anymore, it's kinda sad)

ex-heroin addict tricycle (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 31 January 2011 17:30 (3 years ago) Permalink

Usually the words "big band" mean "run for the hills" in my world... but maybe I shouldn't be so hasty.

― the new mordant & zingy ilxor persona (ilxor), Monday, January 31, 2011 11:21 AM (9 minutes ago) Bookmark

wtf

*kl0p* (deej), Monday, 31 January 2011 17:31 (3 years ago) Permalink

big bands are rad. they don't all sound like big bad voodoo daddy.

tylerw, Monday, 31 January 2011 17:34 (3 years ago) Permalink

haha.

Never Make Your Moog Too Soon (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 31 January 2011 17:36 (3 years ago) Permalink

I think it was just this album cover that made ilxor run for the hills

Never Make Your Moog Too Soon (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 31 January 2011 17:37 (3 years ago) Permalink

i remember that record being way heavier on the slow jamz than i expected when i copped it

*kl0p* (deej), Monday, 31 January 2011 17:38 (3 years ago) Permalink

wtf

― *kl0p* (deej), Monday, January 31, 2011 11:31 AM (4 minutes ago)

Insightful deej post, as always.

I'm just saying, I don't like much of the big band jazz stuff I've heard. Just being honest. And I'm not sure why that's surprising, given that I've started a thread about never having tried to get into jazz until now, and that I've been upfront that I'm approaching the genre from an entirely different angle than, say, deej (for me: tons of psych, kraut, free folk/rock).

the new mordant & zingy ilxor persona (ilxor), Monday, 31 January 2011 17:38 (3 years ago) Permalink

^^^^a+ all-time album. swings so, so hard.

xp to atomic mr basie

bows don't kill people, arrows do (Jordan), Monday, 31 January 2011 17:39 (3 years ago) Permalink

its like asking for a rock primer & mentioning that you dont like the electric guitar, dude. i think 'wtf' is a fair response

*kl0p* (deej), Monday, 31 January 2011 17:40 (3 years ago) Permalink

Nah, I didn't say I don't like sax or trumpet or piano. I said I don't generally like what I've heard of the "big band" sound/aesthetic. Reminds me of seeing my high school marching band at a football game. And yes, I know that's insanely RONG, but whatever.

Anyway, there are plenty of rock fans on ILM who don't enjoy, say, the Stones or Beatles. Which is perfectly valid, and a matter of personal taste. Not sure how that's different from getting into jazz but having an aversion to big band stuff (which I'm open to exploring, btw, but have a feeling I won't enjoy as much as some people do).

Btw, I played a Sun Ra record today (first time!) and it was nice but not mindblowing. I'll do a full post/review a bit later once I've had more time to process, and the ILM albums poll shuts down for the day.

the new mordant & zingy ilxor persona (ilxor), Monday, 31 January 2011 17:43 (3 years ago) Permalink

Is that Joe Henderson record actually a big band thing? Usually the words "big band" mean "run for the hills" in my world... but maybe I shouldn't be so hasty.

― the new mordant & zingy ilxor persona (ilxor), Monday, 31 January 2011 17:21 (20 minutes ago) Bookmark

its a v modern progressive big band kinda thing, not benny goodman stylee at all--saying this as a dude who owns a lot of benny goodman & basie & krupa etc

HOOS the master?? STEEN NUFF (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Monday, 31 January 2011 17:43 (3 years ago) Permalink

Atomic Basie is great but you should also check out some classic Basie with the All-American Rhythm Section- Jo Jones on drums, Freddie Green on guitar and Walter Page on bass, all of whom are revered by players of their respective instruments- they kind of wrote the book on how the jazz rhythm section is supposed to work. They always sound great especially when Lester Young is in the band, especially with Jimmy Rushing ("Mr.Five By Five") on vocals. Actually all I've got on this myself is some old Columbia comps- maybe I'll spring for the Mosaic Basie-Lester Young box.

Never Make Your Moog Too Soon (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 31 January 2011 17:53 (3 years ago) Permalink

this is what you want in terms of early basie

but i feel like there might be better sounding versions of these recordings out there? comp was early 90s, i think.

tylerw, Monday, 31 January 2011 17:55 (3 years ago) Permalink

Monk's "Big Band and Quartet in Concert" might be a good place to start, as far as overcoming your aversion to the big band sound, ilxor. Unorthodox charts and typical monk quirkiness keep it from, you know, reminding you too much of Benny Goodman and grammas and grandpas gettin' down...

Sanford, Monday, 31 January 2011 17:58 (3 years ago) Permalink

Sanford, Monday, 31 January 2011 17:59 (3 years ago) Permalink

typical monk quirkiness

Can you expand on this thought a bit? I haven't listened to a ton of Monk yet, but I played Straight, No Chaser the other day and it sounds pretty, er, straightforward to me, in terms of his piano playing. #wentovermyhead

the new mordant & zingy ilxor persona (ilxor), Monday, 31 January 2011 18:00 (3 years ago) Permalink

reminding you too much of Benny Goodman and grammas and grandpas

Ha. And on that note, there's also Charles Mingus, who has been mentioned a few times upthread. (Also need to find link the Jay Leonhart song about the old folk that thought they were going to hear Lester Lanin)

Never Make Your Moog Too Soon (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 31 January 2011 18:03 (3 years ago) Permalink

Listen to at least the first four minutes of this, and tell me what you think:

Sanford, Monday, 31 January 2011 18:06 (3 years ago) Permalink

Oh Yeah - fantastic, rowdy, profane, funny, swingin' - my favorite of these

The Avant-Garde - think Tyler covered this, just a near miss record all around, good in theory but not practice.

Stellar Regions - have this but can't remember it, thanks for the reminder. with Alice and Rashied so it's gotta be at least decent.

sleeve, Monday, 31 January 2011 18:10 (3 years ago) Permalink

re: Monk, this from his wiki page sums it up pretty well:

His compositions and improvisations are full of dissonant harmonies and angular melodic twists, and are consistent with Monk's unorthodox approach to the piano, which combined a highly percussive attack with abrupt, dramatic use of silences and hesitations.

The Gilded Palace of Hatcat (pixel farmer), Monday, 31 January 2011 18:10 (3 years ago) Permalink

Certain cats like Monk and Coltrane who were viewed as quirky or far-out at the time by some of their contemporaries are a lot easier to listen to and relate to for non-jazz listeners because they are such strong personalities, composers and band leaders that their stuff doesn't run the risk of falling back into the vast background ocean of jazz. Plus, we have had 50+ years of all kinds of other weird sounds coming at us to take some of the edge off.

Never Make Your Moog Too Soon (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 31 January 2011 18:11 (3 years ago) Permalink

otm

bows don't kill people, arrows do (Jordan), Monday, 31 January 2011 18:12 (3 years ago) Permalink

well, there you go!

Sanford, Monday, 31 January 2011 18:13 (3 years ago) Permalink

I wish I could recommend the Kelley bio of Monk more highly, but ultimately it came across more as a laundry list of his and the world's grievances against each other, deserved and undeserved, and less about Monk the composer/player.

The Gilded Palace of Hatcat (pixel farmer), Monday, 31 January 2011 18:13 (3 years ago) Permalink

yeah Mingus and Ra both have pretty interesting takes on trad big band structure. I can see how the millionth version of "take the A train" wouldn't appeal to ilxor's predispositions, but it's a fairly fluid subset of jazz, there's a lot you can do with large ensembles.

many xposts

ex-heroin addict tricycle (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 31 January 2011 18:14 (3 years ago) Permalink

i think ilxor should worry about his first time thru 'take the a train' rather than his millionth

*kl0p* (deej), Monday, 31 January 2011 18:16 (3 years ago) Permalink

Funny, but I've heard "A Train" a bunch of times before.

the new mordant & zingy ilxor persona (ilxor), Monday, 31 January 2011 18:20 (3 years ago) Permalink

Though I'm not sure which recording/version.

the new mordant & zingy ilxor persona (ilxor), Monday, 31 January 2011 18:20 (3 years ago) Permalink

Just make sure you get the ending right, or it's a $50 fine.

wish I could recommend the Kelley bio of Monk more highly, but ultimately it came across more as a laundry list of his and the world's grievances against each other, deserved and undeserved, and less about Monk the composer/player.

Yeah, I wanted to like that, but couldn't really get into it, but I tend to resist magisterial tomes. I thought Straight, no chaser: the life and genius of Thelonious Monk by Leslie Gourse was a lot more to the point and had some great insights from Mary Lou Williams and Randy Weston and some others.

Never Make Your Moog Too Soon (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 31 January 2011 18:20 (3 years ago) Permalink

Just make sure you get the ending right, or it's a $50 fine.

^^^IRL lolz

ex-heroin addict tricycle (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 31 January 2011 18:28 (3 years ago) Permalink

A+

The Gilded Palace of Hatcat (pixel farmer), Monday, 31 January 2011 18:55 (3 years ago) Permalink

reminded me of:

ex-heroin addict tricycle (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 31 January 2011 18:56 (3 years ago) Permalink

I'm gonna speak in ilxor's defense here - I don't like big bands either. All those dudes blowing in unison remind me of chained-up oarsmen on a slave ship in some old movie. No thanks.

I have those Decca Basies, and sometimes I get in the mood for 'em. Other than that, though, I don't tend to like any jazz group with more than seven or at most eight musicians, and I prefer five or six, max.

that's not funny. (unperson), Monday, 31 January 2011 19:01 (3 years ago) Permalink

All those dudes blowing in unison remind me of chained-up oarsmen on a slave ship in some old movie.

Wow, and I thought my being reminded of high school marching bands was bad...

the new mordant & zingy ilxor persona (ilxor), Monday, 31 January 2011 19:05 (3 years ago) Permalink

Re: big bands -- love the rich tones they achieve, often not a fan of the material. Search: Gil Evans' stuff, Zappa's Grand Wazoo

The Gilded Palace of Hatcat (pixel farmer), Monday, 31 January 2011 19:14 (3 years ago) Permalink

Gil Evans, oh hell yeah. I played "Live at the Sweet Basil" on a long drive recently and the time flew by. Not your great-grandpa's big band.

Brad C., Monday, 31 January 2011 19:16 (3 years ago) Permalink

the simple fact is there are particular things you can do with large scale ensembles in terms of harmonic complexity and multiple parts that is just not possible with smaller combos. they have a wider tonal palette (in the case of Ra, they also have a wider rhythmic palette haha).

ex-heroin addict tricycle (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 31 January 2011 19:18 (3 years ago) Permalink

John Coltrane & Don Cherry - The Avant-Garde
Miles Davis - Black Beauty
Joe Henderson - Big Band
Charles Mingus - Oh Yeah

^^ these, for reasons stated by others (note ilxor-style dbl carrot #credmove). the avant-garde is a personal favorite. maybe not coltrane's finest hour, but cherry & the rest of the band are great on it.

normal_fantasy-unicorns (contenderizer), Monday, 31 January 2011 19:34 (3 years ago) Permalink

(note ilxor-style dbl carrot #credmove)

NICE!

the new mordant & zingy ilxor persona (ilxor), Monday, 31 January 2011 19:36 (3 years ago) Permalink

xpost yeah, i mean, a lot of stuff like ellington or gil evans is even *more* psychedelic to my ears than the 60s "out" stuff. just sort of this bottomless sound that can be as heavy as any doom record, or as light as, i dunno, ambient eno.

tylerw, Monday, 31 January 2011 19:36 (3 years ago) Permalink

Sounds good, I think we're getting a good consensus on that list of records.

Any comments on these, folks?

Peter Brotzmann - Born Broke
Peter Brotzmann - The Brain of the Dog in Section
Peter Brotzmann - Medicina
Ornette Coleman - Tomorrow Is the Question
John Coltrane - Stellar Regions
Miles Davis - 'Round about Midnight
Cecil Taylor - Trance

the new mordant & zingy ilxor persona (ilxor), Monday, 31 January 2011 19:37 (3 years ago) Permalink

(The album title Stellar Regions is a huge carrot for me, btw, in case that's not obvious.)

the new mordant & zingy ilxor persona (ilxor), Monday, 31 January 2011 19:37 (3 years ago) Permalink

'round about midnight is essential miles/coltrane/adderly. title track (well sort of the title track) features one of coltrane's best-ever solos.

tylerw, Monday, 31 January 2011 19:38 (3 years ago) Permalink

oops addderly isn't on that record. still essential!

tylerw, Monday, 31 January 2011 19:39 (3 years ago) Permalink

Derek Bailey - Ballads

have to say, I've never been able to get into this one. the standards with out improv flourishes concept doesn't really do much for me. I would definitely recommend the aforementioned topography of the lungs or his solo aida album over it.

aida is out of print, however. but it can be found online, of course, and it's totally worth looking up.

(⊙_⊙?) (Alan N), Monday, 31 January 2011 19:40 (3 years ago) Permalink

Ornette Coleman - Tomorrow Is the Question

pre-Atlantic, pre-Haden/Higgins. I'd put it down about 10th on the Coleman depth chart, which for him is still great.

The Gilded Palace of Hatcat (pixel farmer), Monday, 31 January 2011 19:56 (3 years ago) Permalink

the simple fact is there are particular things you can do with large scale ensembles in terms of harmonic complexity and multiple parts that is just not possible with smaller combos. they have a wider tonal palette

otm - globe unity, jazz composer's orchestra, there's a lot of great out large ensemble jazz records out there. but if, you're like Phil and just don't like large jazz ensembles, then, it might not be worth your time. There's too much music.

sarahel, Monday, 31 January 2011 20:07 (3 years ago) Permalink

Large-ensemble free jazz is a very different thing from "big band music," though. I wrote this about large ensemble free jazz stuff for Perfect Sound Forever back in '03.

that's not funny. (unperson), Monday, 31 January 2011 20:10 (3 years ago) Permalink

Re the short list above: The only Brötz on that list that I've heard is Medicina and it's just okay. Stellar Regions is one of the very few studio recordings by Coltrane's final band w/Pharoah Sanders, Alice Coltrane and Rashied Ali, and is excellent. 'Round About Midnight is essential. Trance is a single-disc boiling down of the 2CD set Nefertiti, The Beautiful One Has Come, and you really need to hear the whole thing.

that's not funny. (unperson), Monday, 31 January 2011 20:12 (3 years ago) Permalink

xp - yeah, Phil, we know, but you've posted before about not liking large ensemble jazz - free or big band - or am I misremembering that?

sarahel, Monday, 31 January 2011 20:21 (3 years ago) Permalink

I always have to pop in and say Ole Coltrane is absolutely essential for "Ole" along. Double bass baby.

matt2, Monday, 31 January 2011 20:27 (3 years ago) Permalink

Albert Ayler's New Grass is great. It's an odd record deserving of more love.

sarahel, Monday, 31 January 2011 20:29 (3 years ago) Permalink

x-post That should say "Ole" alone.

matt2, Monday, 31 January 2011 20:42 (3 years ago) Permalink

Still nine hours left of the Roy Eldridge 100th birthday tribute http://www.studentaffairs.columbia.edu/wkcr/

Never Make Your Moog Too Soon (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 31 January 2011 20:48 (3 years ago) Permalink

If you want to hear some cool stuff done with a big band, check out this album:

The first tune on it (a version of Mongo Santamaria's "Afro Blue") especially is a good example of the sort of massive, epic sound you can't get with a small band.

Tuomas, Monday, 31 January 2011 21:48 (3 years ago) Permalink

This is another good example of an album which, at heart, has pretty traditional big band arrangements, yet gets quite adventurous results out of them:

Tuomas, Monday, 31 January 2011 21:53 (3 years ago) Permalink

yeah, and something like africa/brass is coltrane (and eric dolphy's) version of the big band sound. always thought it was kind of their attempt to update the ellington "jungle" sound of the 20s/30s.

tylerw, Monday, 31 January 2011 21:54 (3 years ago) Permalink

Still trying to think of suitable punishment for the big band haters: maybe a baritone sax playing "Moanin'" in one ear and a trombone playing "Caravan" in the other.

Never Make Your Moog Too Soon (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 31 January 2011 22:00 (3 years ago) Permalink

unperson saying he also doesnt like big bands doesnt make this seem any less wtf to me

*the more you know* big bands developed because prohibition drove dancers away from bars & into larger dancehalls which required louder performers

*kl0p* (deej), Monday, 31 January 2011 22:02 (3 years ago) Permalink

Hate to be boringly obvious but Sketches of Spain does the large ensemble thing for me.

seminal fuiud (NickB), Monday, 31 January 2011 22:03 (3 years ago) Permalink

thats not really 'big band' tho, its all orchestrated

*kl0p* (deej), Monday, 31 January 2011 22:08 (3 years ago) Permalink

yeah, gil evans is a league of his own -- he used "big" bands, but he's not really big band.

tylerw, Monday, 31 January 2011 22:09 (3 years ago) Permalink

Sketches is the only Miles/Gil Evans album I like. Miles Ahead and Porgy & Bess do nothing for me, never have.

that's not funny. (unperson), Monday, 31 January 2011 22:11 (3 years ago) Permalink

'porgy & bess' is amazing. 'prayer (oh doctor jesus)' is one of my favorite things miles ever recorded

*kl0p* (deej), Monday, 31 January 2011 22:12 (3 years ago) Permalink

miles ahead was def the lesser of the 3 but i cant imagine them doing 'nothing' for someone o_O

*kl0p* (deej), Monday, 31 January 2011 22:12 (3 years ago) Permalink

one of my favorite things ever is the brief little "here comes de honey man" from porgy and bess. must've listened to it hundreds of times.

tylerw, Monday, 31 January 2011 22:13 (3 years ago) Permalink

thats not really 'big band' tho, its all orchestrated

― *kl0p* (deej), Monday, January 31, 2011 2:08 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark

so orchestration doesn't equal big band? could you explain this a little more for a n00b like me? serious question.

sleeve, Monday, 31 January 2011 22:14 (3 years ago) Permalink

big band implies the tradition of the dance bands & swing bands created by paul whiteman & his band, its the template duke ellington ran with & that defined popular music for p much 2 decades

*kl0p* (deej), Monday, 31 January 2011 22:15 (3 years ago) Permalink

but people are defining it much more loosely on this thread

sarahel, Monday, 31 January 2011 22:16 (3 years ago) Permalink

gil's orchestration was much closer to contemporary classical music

*kl0p* (deej), Monday, 31 January 2011 22:16 (3 years ago) Permalink

but people are defining it much more loosely on this thread

― sarahel, Monday, January 31, 2011 4:16 PM (21 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

what bands did i not cover in that description, aside from gil's

*kl0p* (deej), Monday, 31 January 2011 22:16 (3 years ago) Permalink

'charlie parker with strings'?

*kl0p* (deej), Monday, 31 January 2011 22:17 (3 years ago) Permalink

Mingus Ah Um might be the best way in, perfect mix of big band style arrangements in a smaller ensemble setting

or turn up 'Sing, Sing, Sing' really loud

Mangrove Earthshoe (herb albert), Monday, 31 January 2011 22:17 (3 years ago) Permalink

ok that makes sense (xp about Gil Evans)

sleeve, Monday, 31 January 2011 22:17 (3 years ago) Permalink

no, i think people are also using the term "big band" to refer to large ensemble recordings from the 60s and 70s that aren't "big band" - just bands that are big

sarahel, Monday, 31 January 2011 22:18 (3 years ago) Permalink

to whom are you referring

*kl0p* (deej), Monday, 31 January 2011 22:18 (3 years ago) Permalink

phil posted:
I'm gonna speak in ilxor's defense here - I don't like big bands either. All those dudes blowing in unison remind me of chained-up oarsmen on a slave ship in some old movie. No thanks.

sarahel, Monday, 31 January 2011 22:19 (3 years ago) Permalink

UH

69, Monday, 31 January 2011 22:21 (3 years ago) Permalink

i mean which bands. im sure there are, like, one or two others, maybe some 3rd stream ish, but im pretty sure that 'big bands' from that era, to the extent that they did exist any more, were in the big band tradition im talking about itt

*kl0p* (deej), Monday, 31 January 2011 22:22 (3 years ago) Permalink

anyway, I just want to post again about how awesome Ayler's New Grass is -- one of these tracks is reminiscent of the Benny Hill theme

sarahel, Monday, 31 January 2011 22:22 (3 years ago) Permalink

deej - bands from other eras, that have lots of musicians in them!!!

sarahel, Monday, 31 January 2011 22:23 (3 years ago) Permalink

can u name one

*kl0p* (deej), Monday, 31 January 2011 22:24 (3 years ago) Permalink

bands from other eras that are large that don't sound like Big Band? Dude, there are tons -- I mean, Anthony Braxton and Bill Dixon to thread.

sarahel, Monday, 31 January 2011 22:24 (3 years ago) Permalink

Darcy James Argue's Secret Society?

Never Make Your Moog Too Soon (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 31 January 2011 22:25 (3 years ago) Permalink

brass bands

ex-heroin addict tricycle (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 31 January 2011 22:25 (3 years ago) Permalink

brass bands

― ex-heroin addict tricycle (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, January 31, 2011 4:25 PM (0 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

typically dont have more than 8-9 ppl iirc

*kl0p* (deej), Monday, 31 January 2011 22:26 (3 years ago) Permalink

Guillermo Klein y los Gauchos?

Never Make Your Moog Too Soon (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 31 January 2011 22:26 (3 years ago) Permalink

But these are all good big bands. I wanna know which are the bad ones so I can steer clear of them.

Never Make Your Moog Too Soon (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 31 January 2011 22:27 (3 years ago) Permalink

~sigh~ like i said i think there are a couple exceptions like gil evans but generally when someone says 'big bands' they are talking about the dominant tradition of 'big bands' in jazz which refers pretty much to your typical jazz band structure

*kl0p* (deej), Monday, 31 January 2011 22:27 (3 years ago) Permalink

I like Darcy James Argue's Secret Society a whole lot, because they reject a lot of the cliches of the style. The first two questions and answers from this interview will explain my position (and his take on it) more clearly than I've done in this thread. And Argue's album Infernal Machines is a must-hear.

that's not funny. (unperson), Monday, 31 January 2011 22:27 (3 years ago) Permalink

i like late 20th century large ensemble jazz, and I also like big band stuff -- it reminds me of my grandfather and his stories about growing up during the depression in Chicago.

sarahel, Monday, 31 January 2011 22:27 (3 years ago) Permalink

Jazz Composer's Orchestra, Gunther Schuller's big band stuff, Muhal Richard Abrams stuff. And you guys call us faux-naive.

bamcquern, Monday, 31 January 2011 22:27 (3 years ago) Permalink

8-9 people is a large group when it comes to jazz -- like, compared to a traditional combo with 3 or 4.

sarahel, Monday, 31 January 2011 22:29 (3 years ago) Permalink

Is this about ilxor not liking "big band" big bands? ILXOR, LISTEN TO BIG BANDS. STOP BEING A SNOB.

bamcquern, Monday, 31 January 2011 22:30 (3 years ago) Permalink

Weasel Walter recently put out a CD of his large ensemble stuff -- does not sound like big band.

sarahel, Monday, 31 January 2011 22:30 (3 years ago) Permalink

typically dont have more than 8-9 ppl iirc

even if this is true (and I'm not sure it is?), it's more than what ilxor/unperson (can't remember) which specified as preferable (5-6)

ex-heroin addict tricycle (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 31 January 2011 22:30 (3 years ago) Permalink

~sigh~ like i said i think there are a couple exceptions like gil evans but generally when someone says 'big bands' they are talking about the dominant tradition of 'big bands' in jazz which refers pretty much to your typical jazz band structure

no one's arguing this, but unperson expanded his dislike to include basically jazz bands that are bigger than 5 or 6 people.

ex-heroin addict tricycle (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 31 January 2011 22:31 (3 years ago) Permalink

Is this about ilxor not liking "big band" big bands? ILXOR, LISTEN TO BIG BANDS. STOP BEING A SNOB.

Roffle.

Yes, DJA has a whole thing about steering clear of certain compositional cop outs that beleaguer big bands. What about the um, Mingus Big Band, Phil?

Never Make Your Moog Too Soon (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 31 January 2011 22:32 (3 years ago) Permalink

which is Phil's right, I guess. If he doesn't like it, he doesn't like it. The only problem comes when he's saying something is good or bad in a category of something he categorically dislikes. Well, there's also a problem if an editor asks him to review something like that, but, that's another topic.

sarahel, Monday, 31 January 2011 22:33 (3 years ago) Permalink

New Grass is great. Ayler doing Quincy Jones tv soundtrack type songs in a free fashion. I wish there were fifty more records like it.

bamcquern, Monday, 31 January 2011 22:33 (3 years ago) Permalink

New Grass is great. Ayler doing Quincy Jones tv soundtrack type songs in a free fashion. I wish there were fifty more records like it.

YES!!!!

sarahel, Monday, 31 January 2011 22:34 (3 years ago) Permalink

Is this about ilxor not liking "big band" big bands? ILXOR, LISTEN TO BIG BANDS. STOP BEING A SNOB.

I will listen to everything! Just wanted to disclose up-front that, just like I have aesthetic leanings into certain types of jazz due to my non-jazz music interests, I've not enjoyed the big band stuff I've heard so far -- this may change, though.

it's more than what ilxor/unperson (can't remember) which specified as preferable (5-6)

This wasn't me.

the new mordant & zingy ilxor persona (ilxor), Monday, 31 January 2011 22:34 (3 years ago) Permalink

I don't tend to like any jazz group with more than seven or at most eight musicians, and I prefer five or six, max.

^^^this is what got everybody to address bands apart from the classic "big band" archetype

ex-heroin addict tricycle (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 31 January 2011 22:35 (3 years ago) Permalink

xp I would make you a list but you have like 1,000 hours of listening ahead of you already.

bamcquern, Monday, 31 January 2011 22:36 (3 years ago) Permalink


the original big band

tylerw, Monday, 31 January 2011 22:36 (3 years ago) Permalink

General suggestion for ilxor given the volume of stuff here -- don't waste too much time yet on stuff that doesn't really grab you. Your tastes can get pushed really far just by naturally exploring what you like and branching out from it. No need to force things down your throat.

hey boys, suppers on me, our video just went bacterial (Hurting 2), Monday, 31 January 2011 22:38 (3 years ago) Permalink

Another thing about a big band, it's pretty exciting to actually go to the show and hear all those horns moving air and then hear it all drop down for the solos and then roar back at the end.

In a way, it is similar to, at the opposite end of the volume spectrum, finding small group or solo jazz guitar being boring, too soft and silent as compared to rock guitar, and then going to the gig and being drawn in by relative quietness instead of being put off by it.

Never Make Your Moog Too Soon (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 31 January 2011 22:39 (3 years ago) Permalink

But anyway, Hurting otm.

Never Make Your Moog Too Soon (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 31 January 2011 22:39 (3 years ago) Permalink

Another thing about a big band, it's pretty exciting to actually go to the show and hear all those horns moving air and then hear it all drop down for the solos and then roar back at the end.

Yeah!! ilxor - why don't you go and see live jazz shows?

sarahel, Monday, 31 January 2011 22:40 (3 years ago) Permalink

This is such a fantastic thread. Long time lurker, but first time poster here. Was moved to finally contribute b/c I seem to be going through almost the exact same thing ilxor is (ie, a sudden jazz kick/immersion). It's been fantastically fun and I appreciate all of the knowledge shared here.

Before a couple of weeks ago, my knowledge was more or less limited to Kind of Blue/A Love Supreme. In A Silent Way has been a favorite too. (Matter of fact, my copy of the Complete Sessions just arrived today. Can't wait to go deep into this one.)

Picked up a whole bunch of used titles over the weekend and have been enjoying myself. Gave Albert Ayler's "Love Cry" a first spin earlier today and must say it's possibly the most "out there" thing I've just about ever heard. Interesting. Not sure how much I'll be going back to it though. Is all of Ayler's stuff so challenging? It made my first listen to Coltrane's "Sun Ship" seem downright breezy by comparison.

NP: Coltrane's Sound

xtianDC, Monday, 31 January 2011 22:41 (3 years ago) Permalink

Apparently this big band performance set some kind of attendance record: http://new.lincolncenter.org/live/index.php/ood-2010-harlow-sanabria.

Never Make Your Moog Too Soon (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 31 January 2011 22:42 (3 years ago) Permalink

Love Cry is ok, but Witches and Devils is a better record imo.

sarahel, Monday, 31 January 2011 22:44 (3 years ago) Permalink

Yeah!! ilxor - why don't you go and see live jazz shows?

Because I barely know a thing about jazz! I'm just now hearing the "classics" of the genre for the first time; how would I know what is worth my time in contemporary jazz? (Obviously I could go see local/house bands, or just go see stuff at random, but...)

the new mordant & zingy ilxor persona (ilxor), Monday, 31 January 2011 22:45 (3 years ago) Permalink

This is such a fantastic thread. Long time lurker, but first time poster here. Was moved to finally contribute b/c I seem to be going through almost the exact same thing ilxor is (ie, a sudden jazz kick/immersion). It's been fantastically fun and I appreciate all of the knowledge shared here.

THIS MADE MY DAY

Thanks for coming out and posting!!

the new mordant & zingy ilxor persona (ilxor), Monday, 31 January 2011 22:45 (3 years ago) Permalink

how would I know what is worth my time in contemporary jazz?

trial and error, just like everything else in life

sarahel, Monday, 31 January 2011 22:46 (3 years ago) Permalink

Works for me. Where do you live again, ilxor?

Never Make Your Moog Too Soon (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 31 January 2011 22:47 (3 years ago) Permalink

Gave Albert Ayler's "Love Cry" a first spin earlier today and must say it's possibly the most "out there" thing I've just about ever heard. Interesting. Not sure how much I'll be going back to it though. Is all of Ayler's stuff so challenging? It made my first listen to Coltrane's "Sun Ship" seem downright breezy by comparison.

this is awesome... I remember playing Sun Ship for a non-jazz friend of mine and he was pretty overwhelmed, so I'd say you're doing great.

sleeve, Monday, 31 January 2011 22:48 (3 years ago) Permalink

trial and error, just like everything else in life

Yes, but time and $$ are limited. Hence my asking for recommendations in this thread, for instance, instead of going out and buying every jazz album I see in the used bins.

Where do you live again, ilxor?

I live in Austin TX.

the new mordant & zingy ilxor persona (ilxor), Monday, 31 January 2011 22:48 (3 years ago) Permalink

Oh, in that case you are out of luck.

Never Make Your Moog Too Soon (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 31 January 2011 22:49 (3 years ago) Permalink

not really a big music town

tylerw, Monday, 31 January 2011 22:50 (3 years ago) Permalink

Just like its soundalike, Boston.

Never Make Your Moog Too Soon (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 31 January 2011 22:50 (3 years ago) Permalink

Ha ha ha. Most clearly a case of too many choices = overwhelming, not the other way around.

the new mordant & zingy ilxor persona (ilxor), Monday, 31 January 2011 22:51 (3 years ago) Permalink

ilxor, are you in a city big enough to have a good variety of live jazz options? if you name the city, we can offer recommendations via Pollstar or similar on gigs, same as we're offering on albums.

xposts lol

The Gilded Palace of Hatcat (pixel farmer), Monday, 31 January 2011 22:51 (3 years ago) Permalink

Well, this place is one of our big jazz venues: http://www.elephantroom.com

Not sure about others offhand, but I'm sure I can fix that with a few minutes on Google, etc.

the new mordant & zingy ilxor persona (ilxor), Monday, 31 January 2011 22:52 (3 years ago) Permalink

February calendar: http://www.elephantroom.com/February2011.html

the new mordant & zingy ilxor persona (ilxor), Monday, 31 January 2011 22:53 (3 years ago) Permalink

THIS MADE MY DAY

Thanks for coming out and posting!!

You're welcome! Hope you don't mind me chiming in and seeking out similar guidance from the experts!

It occurred to me one of the things that makes this exciting for me personally is that since I'm suddenly most interested in a section of my various haunts that I previously pretty much ignored, it's like I've discovered a whole bunch of great new record stores too.

I often find that my acquisition of new music so far exceeds my ability actually enjoy. I'm with you on the whole "more time on fewer records" notion. That jazz more or less demands this on new ears makes it the perfect new thing to explore.

xtianDC, Monday, 31 January 2011 22:53 (3 years ago) Permalink

It occurred to me one of the things that makes this exciting for me personally is that since I'm suddenly most interested in a section of my various haunts that I previously pretty much ignored, it's like I've discovered a whole bunch of great new record stores too.

So, so true. I've gone nuts in my usual old boring record stores the past couple weeks.

the new mordant & zingy ilxor persona (ilxor), Monday, 31 January 2011 22:54 (3 years ago) Permalink

Always though those acts at The Elephant Room were kind of corny the times I went there. And I just checked the Emo's calendar and, in the limited time available to me I was not able to find anything that looked like a jazz act on there.

Never Make Your Moog Too Soon (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 31 January 2011 22:55 (3 years ago) Permalink

I've been to the Elephant Room a few times. Good ambience, nice beer selection. Never cared for the music too much. But if there's a show coming up that I'd find interesting, I might be willing to go.

the new mordant & zingy ilxor persona (ilxor), Monday, 31 January 2011 22:58 (3 years ago) Permalink

<q>Gave Albert Ayler's "Love Cry" a first spin earlier today and must say it's possibly the most "out there" thing I've just about ever heard. Interesting. Not sure how much I'll be going back to it though. Is all of Ayler's stuff so challenging? It made my first listen to Coltrane's "Sun Ship" seem downright breezy by comparison.[i]</q>

<q>[i]this is awesome... I remember playing Sun Ship for a non-jazz friend of mine and he was pretty overwhelmed, so I'd say you're doing great.</q>

Kind of feel like I could easily concentrate on Miles and Coltrane alone and would be still be joyfully overwhelmed and occupied. Trying to resist this, though for the most part that's where my emphasis has gone. I can't help it...I have that intrinsic oh-i-like-that-album-now-i-must-hear-everything-that-artist-has-done record nerd gene.

Anyone read those Ashley Kahn books on Kind of Blue and A Love Supreme? I wonder if reading those would be a worthwhile exercise for me; using my most familiar recordings as a basis/springboard for some general knowledge about jazz in general.

Already from just this thread I've learned a bit about the transition from bop to modal to free jazz...and well, even to a musical doofus like me, it *kind of* makes sense...

xtianDC, Monday, 31 January 2011 23:05 (3 years ago) Permalink

Anyone read those Ashley Kahn books on Kind of Blue and A Love Supreme? I wonder if reading those would be a worthwhile exercise for me; using my most familiar recordings as a basis/springboard for some general knowledge about jazz in general.

Can definitely recommend the KoB book. That wouldn't be a bad method of study, along with deep listening.

The Gilded Palace of Hatcat (pixel farmer), Monday, 31 January 2011 23:09 (3 years ago) Permalink

8-9 people is a large group when it comes to jazz -- like, compared to a traditional combo with 3 or 4.

yeah, but an octet or nonet is not a "big band".

bows don't kill people, arrows do (Jordan), Monday, 31 January 2011 23:15 (3 years ago) Permalink

an octet or nonet is not a "big band".

No, it's not. And while we're on the subject, I can definitely recommend Pathways, a 2010 release by the Dave Holland Octet.

that's not funny. (unperson), Monday, 31 January 2011 23:33 (3 years ago) Permalink

Already from just this thread I've learned a bit about the transition from bop to modal to free jazz

I feel like I could identify "bop" or "free jazz" on basic principle, but I don't know wtf "modal" is -- heard the term, sure, but can't define it or identify it on record.

the new mordant & zingy ilxor persona (ilxor), Tuesday, 1 February 2011 00:08 (3 years ago) Permalink

modal - essentially improvising on one scale rather than on a set of changing chords. so it sounds more droney and static, even though you might still have a walking bassline playing all quarter notes. to compare, listen to a standard based on rhythm changes (ie the chords to "i got rhythm), like charlie parker's "anthropology". then listen to "so what" off of kind of blue, which is all based on the same chord except for the bridge.

bows don't kill people, arrows do (Jordan), Tuesday, 1 February 2011 00:14 (3 years ago) Permalink

here's a pretty intelligible AABA rhythm changes example, also miles:

bows don't kill people, arrows do (Jordan), Tuesday, 1 February 2011 00:22 (3 years ago) Permalink

Sun Ra - The Futuristic Sounds of Sun Ra (1961)

So, this Sun Ra album's alright. It didn't strike me as an easy transition from funky, krautrocky stuff like Miles' On the Corner, and didn't blow me away on first listen like Ornette's The Shape of Jazz to Come. But it's been an interesting listen. I don't love it, but it has its quirks that I think differentiate it from the other jazz records I've played to date.

The track that stands out as fundamentally weird from The Futuristic Sounds of Sun Ra, setting the tone for the next few tracks, is "The Beginning," which features slow, mournful horns that bleat in a lazy fashion, sometimes sounding out of tune, whether intentionally or not I have no clue. The percussion hits remain quick beneath the horns, but are not forceful; it sounds like a chorus of taps, clicks, and people hitting on things gently, plus the occasional bell or chime noise. Certainly not a traditional drum sound.

The next few tracks hold the downcast mood of "The Beginning," and it gets tiresome. There's an interesting vocal part(!) on "China Gate" that's worth a listen, but on the whole, these mid-record tracks are too slow and sad to really hold my attention. It does sound like there's an oboe or clarinet in the mix at points, maybe a conga or tribal drum of sorts.

In contrast, the tracks featured near the beginning and end of the record sound "jazzy" in what I think of as a more traditional sense -- uptempo, swinging and lively, melodic, lots of piano and horns, with a flute or the occasional non-traditional instrument here and there. Not what I'd thought Sun Ra would sound like before I played the record. And it surprised me to enjoy the more traditional pieces over the experimental, percussion-filled abstractions.

This is an interesting record, wonderful in parts, and I feel like it's been a worthwhile introduction to Sun Ra and his diversity. But I have a feeling he has better releases out there that I have yet to hear.

Rating: ✰✰ ½

the new mordant & zingy ilxor persona (ilxor), Tuesday, 1 February 2011 00:40 (3 years ago) Permalink

John Coltrane - Stellar Regions

This is a record that I always think I really really love, the opening notes give me chills, and then halfway through I'm bored again. Parts of it are amazing! But it loses my attention eventually.

LIVE SHIT

Ok dude here's the skinny sadly atx is a great fuckin town for tunes, but particularly it's wheedly old man blues rock, mook metal & hipster garage scuzz (which i love, obv), and jazz is tough. these are yer best options:

-Elephant Room: this is where all the jazz studies kids & guitar center dads go hang out/blow on open mic nights. you'll hear some really great playing, some shitty playing, and a lotta sorta bring-in-the-crowds swing & 50s hard bop like that miles clip right above me. good way to dip yr toe in, but there are like 'cooler' spots with more 'modern' stuff

-Victory Grill on E 6th: they don't always have shows here, but whoever is playing, go see them. first time i went i was a little concerned abt parking my car down the street, now its super gentrified and iirc there's a french bakery & vintage moog store across the street.

-Ruby's BBQ: again, not a lot of shows, but when they bring somebody they are WORTH YER TIME.

HOOS the master?? STEEN NUFF (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Tuesday, 1 February 2011 00:44 (3 years ago) Permalink

you're also gonna be primed just in time for the spring/summer season of epistrophy arts, the rad organization that regularly brings brotzmann & joe mcphee & the thing & others to town

http://www.epistrophyarts.org/

HOOS the master?? STEEN NUFF (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Tuesday, 1 February 2011 00:47 (3 years ago) Permalink

It didn't strike me as an easy transition from funky, krautrocky stuff like Miles' On the Corner

that kind of stuff is later for Ra - post '66 or so at least, continuing on through the 70s. but you got a record that is all acoustic and a pared down Arkestra to boot (both reasons it's never been at the top of my "must get" pile)

ex-heroin addict tricycle (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 1 February 2011 00:49 (3 years ago) Permalink

Okay that Epistrophy thing sounds like it's worth looking into. Thanks!

xp HOOS

the new mordant & zingy ilxor persona (ilxor), Tuesday, 1 February 2011 00:50 (3 years ago) Permalink

If you happen to catch the Monster Big Band one night anywhere (they play Elephant Room & Ruta Maya a lot iirc), look for the trombonist named Freddie Mendoza. He's a jazz prof at Tx State who used to play only free improv before eventually developing an appresh for the straighter big band stuff he composes & plays with MBB now. Tell him of your situation! He will be v v pleased to guide u further!!

HOOS the master?? STEEN NUFF (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Tuesday, 1 February 2011 00:50 (3 years ago) Permalink

there are exceptions (like Disco 3000) but I tend to prefer Ra in one of two scenarios: solo or with a large ensemble

xp

ex-heroin addict tricycle (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 1 February 2011 00:50 (3 years ago) Permalink

but you got a record that is all acoustic and a pared down Arkestra to boot (both reasons it's never been at the top of my "must get" pile)

Yup, my fault there. But his stuff is really tough to track down used (so far at least). I have about 200 Miles and Coltrane things to pick from in the used bins, but I'm pretty much going to grab used Ra records in the order I see 'em. Slim pickings!

the new mordant & zingy ilxor persona (ilxor), Tuesday, 1 February 2011 00:51 (3 years ago) Permalink

Like, one local shop has at least 50-60 gently used Miles CDs. Incredible selection. And nothing from Ra, or Joe Henderson, or Archie Shepp. Found a Pharaoh Sanders record, though. The big names in jazz dominate the shops, it seems.

the new mordant & zingy ilxor persona (ilxor), Tuesday, 1 February 2011 00:53 (3 years ago) Permalink

yeah those Pharoah recs take some effort to find, still looking for several myself.

dude I give you credit for diving straight into a second-string Sun Ra album with such a detailed review, nice work.

sleeve, Tuesday, 1 February 2011 00:58 (3 years ago) Permalink

I've found a decent selection of Pharoah records so far. Not a ton, but enough to keep me busy for a couple months: Tauhid (listened once, review coming sometime soon), Karma, Black Unity, and an Impulse compilation. Haven't picked up the last one yet.

the new mordant & zingy ilxor persona (ilxor), Tuesday, 1 February 2011 01:15 (3 years ago) Permalink

dude I give you credit for diving straight into a second-string Sun Ra album with such a detailed review, nice work.

Thanks, btw! I'm not gonna post about anything until I've listened at least 2-3 times and feel like I have a decent grasp at what's going on, and whether or not I enjoy it. I have a second Sun Ra album waiting in the wings that I haven't played yet (see original thread post).

the new mordant & zingy ilxor persona (ilxor), Tuesday, 1 February 2011 01:17 (3 years ago) Permalink

I just put my brand new (used) copy of Black Unity on at my radio show, never heard it before! I'm excited... lots of percussion so far.

sleeve, Tuesday, 1 February 2011 01:18 (3 years ago) Permalink

Just read the Allmusic review for that Sun Ra record and it's positively beaming (much more so than my thoughts):

http://www.allmusic.com/album/the-futuristic-sounds-of-sun-ra-main-entry-r151864

the new mordant & zingy ilxor persona (ilxor), Tuesday, 1 February 2011 01:19 (3 years ago) Permalink

According to the Szwed bio, Sun Ra's career as a band leader was even longer than Ellington's. His catalog is unbelievably huge. I'm sure there's a lot of later albums you'd prefer to Futuristic Sounds.

Phil, that Darcy James Argue interview is excellent and prompted me to put on Infernal Machines again. I think I'd played once before, on headphones while doing dishes ... it sounds a whole lot better on decent speakers with some volume. This album would be a good introduction to "big band" jazz in the sense of a large ensemble doing composed music. His comments about the big band tradition seem totally OTM.

Brad C., Tuesday, 1 February 2011 01:28 (3 years ago) Permalink

I quite like "Futuristic Sounds" but the AMG guy is right "This is one to play for the mistaken folks who think the Arkestra did nothing but make noise," which if you haven't heard a lot of other Arkestra stuff won't matter to you.

Black Unity is great! Ilxor, if you have Karma, Tauhid, and Black Unity, I don't think you'll need that comp.

rob, Tuesday, 1 February 2011 01:32 (3 years ago) Permalink

the szwed bio was a great read iirc

*kl0p* (deej), Tuesday, 1 February 2011 01:38 (3 years ago) Permalink

I just listened to a chunk of Futuristic Sounds there and I agree it's underwhelming. But "The Beginning" is great (mind you, I enjoy out-Ra albums like "Strange Strings") and I was wondering, how much music like this was around in 1961? Structurally it seems as close to Partch or Varese as to any other jazz I'm aware of from that time. Comparable groups like the Art Ensemble of Chicago came quite a bit later. People here know much more than I about jazz history - can anyone fill me in on some context?

xp - I've been meaning to pick up the Szwed book for ages

Daithi Lacha Flame (seandalai), Tuesday, 1 February 2011 01:41 (3 years ago) Permalink

if it's the Impulse Years comp it has Hum Allah Hum Allah Hum Allah from Jewels Of Thought, so not totally dispensable (xxp)

sleeve, Tuesday, 1 February 2011 01:43 (3 years ago) Permalink

ilxor, it's still early days, but do you find yourself responding more to melodicism or "out"-ness in solos?

The Gilded Palace of Hatcat (pixel farmer), Tuesday, 1 February 2011 01:43 (3 years ago) Permalink

Tough to say. Maybe a nice balance of the two? But then, I'm not used to actively listening to solos and trying to figure them out. I'd say that I respond more to the overall feel of a 5-10 minute piece (or longer) than any individual part.

the new mordant & zingy ilxor persona (ilxor), Tuesday, 1 February 2011 01:50 (3 years ago) Permalink

I've got a Monk/Coltrane 2-disc set on the stereo now: The Complete 1957 Riverside Recordings, the one I ordered from Amazon last week. Coltrane's going nuts on a solo right now, track 6. I'd say it is melodic for the most part... but then every now and then, he hits a string of off-kilter, unexpected notes and I'm all, whoooaaaa what just happened???

the new mordant & zingy ilxor persona (ilxor), Tuesday, 1 February 2011 01:52 (3 years ago) Permalink

^______^

satori

The Gilded Palace of Hatcat (pixel farmer), Tuesday, 1 February 2011 01:56 (3 years ago) Permalink

best ilxor posting since forever itt

normal_fantasy-unicorns (contenderizer), Tuesday, 1 February 2011 03:06 (3 years ago) Permalink

the szwed bio was a great read iirc
yeah pretty fascinating stuff. a long-ish book, but you get the feeling that it's just scratching the surface of the whole sun ra thing.

tylerw, Tuesday, 1 February 2011 03:08 (3 years ago) Permalink

that xp sounds snarky (probably is snarky), but i loved yr sun ra write up, ilxor. looking forward to the monk/coltrane riverside and heliocentric worlds reviews.

seandalai OTM here: "...how much music like this was around in 1961? Structurally it seems as close to Partch or Varese as to any other jazz I'm aware of from that time. Comparable groups like the Art Ensemble of Chicago came quite a bit later."

can't answer the question authoritatively, but i'm tempted to say "none." nothing i've heard, anyway. ra was pretty much sui generis, esp in the late 50s/early 60s.

normal_fantasy-unicorns (contenderizer), Tuesday, 1 February 2011 03:13 (3 years ago) Permalink

that xp sounds snarky (probably is snarky)

You're right, though. Good place for serious ilxor posting!

the new mordant & zingy ilxor persona (ilxor), Tuesday, 1 February 2011 03:18 (3 years ago) Permalink

out to lunch? grachan moncur? Prob a couple years later but

bert, Tuesday, 1 February 2011 03:25 (3 years ago) Permalink

I picked up Dolphy's Out to Lunch on an early recommendation in this thread. Haven't listened yet, though.

the new mordant & zingy ilxor persona (ilxor), Tuesday, 1 February 2011 03:41 (3 years ago) Permalink

one of my absolute favorites

The Gilded Palace of Hatcat (pixel farmer), Tuesday, 1 February 2011 04:02 (3 years ago) Permalink

moncur's evolution from a year earlier has a similar feel - hutcherson and Williams also on it.

bert, Tuesday, 1 February 2011 05:03 (3 years ago) Permalink

had to put this somewhere:

bows don't kill people, arrows do (Jordan), Tuesday, 1 February 2011 17:39 (3 years ago) Permalink

when kenny met miles

HOOS the master?? STEEN NUFF (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Tuesday, 1 February 2011 18:15 (3 years ago) Permalink

LOL!

Damn this thread seems so....different without ilxor (ilxor), Tuesday, 1 February 2011 18:24 (3 years ago) Permalink

Space is the Place is my second-favorite musician bio (just behind the Sly "Off the Record" book). amazing read.

ex-heroin addict tricycle (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 1 February 2011 18:51 (3 years ago) Permalink

Just discovered this fantastic series from the Guardian:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/series/50-great-jazz-moments

Lotsa great reading for us nOOBs.

xtianDC, Tuesday, 1 February 2011 19:02 (3 years ago) Permalink

reminded me that we haven't even touched on Stan Getz/Joao Gilberto and the wealth of Brazilian jazz itt

ex-heroin addict tricycle (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 1 February 2011 19:15 (3 years ago) Permalink

xxp i went to high school w/ the guy who's Epistrophy Arts, a true bro to the nth degree

def add Getz/Gilberto to your list, should be able to find it everywhere and even if you dont dig the bossa nova, it's one of the best patio records for sunny day chillin

Mangrove Earthshoe (herb albert), Tuesday, 1 February 2011 19:42 (3 years ago) Permalink

My wife has the self-titled Getz/Gilberto record. It's alright -- never really captivated me beyond being pleasant and easy to listen to, though.

Damn this thread seems so....different without ilxor (ilxor), Tuesday, 1 February 2011 19:51 (3 years ago) Permalink

it's really one of the best records ever though

normal_fantasy-unicorns (contenderizer), Tuesday, 1 February 2011 20:18 (3 years ago) Permalink

ha, yeah, it really is great. but i can see it just sounding like easy listening at first. it is a pretty unfuckwithable LP tho.

tylerw, Tuesday, 1 February 2011 20:23 (3 years ago) Permalink

I've never listened to Getz, but just downloaded a 3CD set of his early '50s quintet recordings that's coming out next week.

that's not funny. (unperson), Wednesday, 2 February 2011 04:03 (3 years ago) Permalink

getz super rad imo

some of the most complex cool style stuff out thereq

HOOS the master?? STEEN NUFF (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Wednesday, 2 February 2011 04:56 (3 years ago) Permalink

just so immediately recognizable

bert, Wednesday, 2 February 2011 05:53 (3 years ago) Permalink

Some good stuff going on in this thread: Not the canon: another jazz thread

cos i really liked this thread in which ilxor asked for jazz recs, and it seemed that a lot of people had a lot to contribute. But - how much can you throw at someone and expect them to listen? (One of the things I liked about the thread was that it really happened - he really bought discs, listened to them etc)

Thanks, btw -- I started this thread intending for these recommendations to jumpstart my 2011 deep-dive into jazz. I'd say this year so far, jazz has comprised about 50% of my listening, and I've bought about 20 albums used, nice and cheap. I'll get to reviewing as I get a handle on what's going on with each record. It's been good to really focus on a new genre for a change, slow down my listening and buying habits and hear a new style of music with fresh ears.

I haven't bought a 2011 new release thus far that I can recall, aside from the Electric Wizard and Ghost US releases. Feel like I'm turning into unperson -- all metal and jazz, not much else.

Damn this thread seems so....different without ilxor (ilxor), Wednesday, 2 February 2011 15:47 (3 years ago) Permalink

that kenny g photo is actually form his facebook, his caption is the best part because he STILL doesn't get the joke

http://i.imgur.com/0h3fr.gif

surfboard dudes get wiped out, totally, Wednesday, 2 February 2011 16:06 (3 years ago) Permalink

First listen of "On The Corner". This is insane and kinda melting my face. LOVE.

Also, earlier today I picked up a copy of Alice Coltrane's "Journey in Satchidanandadadadadadaddaadadadadadad". Can't wait to give it a spin later this eve.

xtianDC, Wednesday, 2 February 2011 21:55 (3 years ago) Permalink

Satchidananda is my desert island, favorite album of all time. where Corner is face melting, Journey is soul expanding. truth, consciousness, and bliss

The indie rocker is the modern hippie, and the internet is his LSD (herb albert), Wednesday, 2 February 2011 22:36 (3 years ago) Permalink

^^^^^^ yesss

when i'm bored on guitar i inevitably start playing that bassline & melody

HOOS the master?? STEEN NUFF (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Thursday, 3 February 2011 07:55 (3 years ago) Permalink

The Peter Brötzmann Octet - The Complete Machine Gun Sessions (1968)

First impression: this album is amazing. And really, really, really noisy.

Second impression: this album is pretty much a free-improvisation rock record, possibly touching on jazz in places, but most likely filed under jazz because of its use of jazz instruments. My understanding is that Brötzmann "plays" the baritone sax, and that he's "playing" with three additional sax "players" on this LP.

For those who have heard Machine Gun, it should be obvious that I've placed the word "play" in quotations because, quite clearly, that's an understatement for what Brötzmann is aiming for here. The sax players (as well as two drummers, two bassists and a pianist, I believe) sound like they are physically attacking their instruments -- and perhaps the instruments are fighting back -- resulting in one of the most cacophonous sound-riots I've ever heard laid to tape, using jazz instruments or otherwise. The energy level is pretty constant; here and there most of the instruments will pause for a breath while a single sax wails away for a few seconds, then the other instruments smash back into the mix.

I really enjoy Machine Gun, but honestly, I'd have loved it without hearing an ounce of jazz otherwise. A good comparison point is early Boredoms material. If you can imagine giving each of the Boredoms folks a saxophone instead of traditional rock instruments, then asking them to re-record Pop Tatari, you'll have a basic idea of how Machine Gun sounds. It's a clattering, high-impact riot of amelodic sounds, bits and pieces of structured melody weaving briefly into the mix, instruments occasionally locking into step with each other, but more frequently doing their own thing. Very, very noisily.

The extra tracks on The Complete Machine Gun Sessions include a couple alternate takes on "Machine Gun" and the second track, plus a live recording of "Machine Gun" (supposedly the only live recording available). All are fantastic, if not vastly different from the recordings that ended up on the proper LP.

Rating: ✰✰✰✰ ½

Damn this thread seems so....different without ilxor (ilxor), Thursday, 3 February 2011 20:29 (3 years ago) Permalink

The Gilded Palace of Hatcat (pixel farmer), Thursday, 3 February 2011 20:49 (3 years ago) Permalink

Great review, ilxor. I'll now be seeking out Machine Gun.

My first listen of Alice Coltrane's Journey In Satchidananda took place last night. Really dug it...has this intense spiritual vibe akin to A Love Supreme. It was also my first exposure to Pharoah Sanders, whose playing on this one is much more muted than I expected. I've so much about his dueling sax role on the later Coltrane records that I was expecting something much more frenzied. Have to say, of all the records I've heard thus far, this one was among the most immediately likable.

On a different not, for some reason, I find myself going back continually to Coltrane's Sun Ship. Seems odd, considering how immediately accessible the others I have are (A Love Supreme, Giant Step, Coltrane's Sound, My Favorite Things, Blue Train), that I would be so drawn to this posthumously released record that, from what I've gathered, is more or less considered a minor work. I'm not convinced that this record hasn't changed every time I listen to it! It's like a puzzle that I find myself kind of addicted to...must unlock its treasures slowly.

I still plan on collecting as wide an array of stuff as possible, but being that I seem most turned on by Trane right now, I went ahead and ordered the Impulse! Volumes 1 and 2 set. Pretty psyched about that. I think a Coltrane bio is in my future too.

xtianDC, Thursday, 3 February 2011 21:00 (3 years ago) Permalink

Good stuff -- I need to seek out Journey in Satchidananda and Sun Ship, definitely. I'm not sure what else you're into, but I don't think Brotzmann would be a huge leap for anyone into Boredoms, Sonic Youth, Rhys Chatham, Glenn Branca or (for something a bit more contemporary) Lightning Bolt. You get the idea...

Damn this thread seems so....different without ilxor (ilxor), Thursday, 3 February 2011 21:04 (3 years ago) Permalink

I'm not super-versed in avant-noisy stuff beyond Sonic Youth (whom are a favorite). Beyond some obvious things, I'd say the jazziest non-jazz I love is stuff like Pentangle (who actually do a cover of a track off Minghus Ah Um). Into the weird folky drone stuff too. I think Satchidananda will appeal to that side of your tastes for sure.

xtianDC, Thursday, 3 February 2011 21:10 (3 years ago) Permalink

Perfect. So far I've only spun Alice's Ptah, the El Daoud, which I think is really good. Need to give that one some more time in the coming days. I have a three-hour or so drive ahead of me tomorrow... should be a good opportunity to play 4-5 records front to back, looking fwd to it.

Damn this thread seems so....different without ilxor (ilxor), Thursday, 3 February 2011 21:12 (3 years ago) Permalink

If you love the attack of Brotz but are interested in an approach that involves more written sections, more free jazz than completely free improv, I recommend the Brotzmann Chicago Tentet, especially their first release, The Chicago Octet/Tentet originally on Okkadisk. I don't know if it's back in print; I don't think it is.

The Gilded Palace of Hatcat (pixel farmer), Thursday, 3 February 2011 21:33 (3 years ago) Permalink

Brotzmann: The Chicago Octet/Tentet - Audio CD - Box set by Peter Brotzmann

1 used from $89.99

Based on the Amazon listing I'd assume it's OOP.

Damn this thread seems so....different without ilxor (ilxor), Thursday, 3 February 2011 21:37 (3 years ago) Permalink

There are a lot of ways to go with the EFI crowd -- bigger ensembles that give you that nuclear detonation in your head, smaller duo/trio meetings where you can hear more interplay between players, etc. Topography of the Lungs, mentioned upthread, is pretty amazing -- Evan Parker, Derek Bailey, Han Bennink.

xp yeah, I was lucky enough to get mine when it first came out...box #1250 out of however many were in the "pressing".

The Gilded Palace of Hatcat (pixel farmer), Thursday, 3 February 2011 21:39 (3 years ago) Permalink

I guess I've tended to avoid Brotzmann due to a preconception that it's all about "who can blow the hardest"...but given my love for Ayler (and ilxor's writeup), I really ought to check it out.

"Be Music, Night" is the only Chicago Tentet album on Spotify, is that a good one?

Daithi Lacha Flame (seandalai), Thursday, 3 February 2011 22:02 (3 years ago) Permalink

I wish I could tell you. I don't have the scratch to keep up with Brotzmann's output.

The Gilded Palace of Hatcat (pixel farmer), Thursday, 3 February 2011 22:20 (3 years ago) Permalink

I have a three-hour or so drive ahead of me tomorrow.

obviously, provided you don't mind sharing, i have to ask which part of our state you're traveling to

HOOS the master?? STEEN NUFF (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Friday, 4 February 2011 04:10 (3 years ago) Permalink

Huntsville...

Damn this thread seems so....different without ilxor (ilxor), Friday, 4 February 2011 04:56 (3 years ago) Permalink

I love Huntsville!!! You're not going for jazz-related purposes, I imagine?

HOOS the master?? STEEN NUFF (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Friday, 4 February 2011 05:28 (3 years ago) Permalink

Nope. Running...

Damn this thread seems so....different without ilxor (ilxor), Friday, 4 February 2011 05:31 (3 years ago) Permalink

Feel that.

HOOS the master?? STEEN NUFF (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Friday, 4 February 2011 05:42 (3 years ago) Permalink

Just skimmed through the whole thread, and I don't think anyone mentioned Scaruffi's lists. You might find some interesting, challenging stuff not yet mentioned here. -- http://www.scaruffi.com/jazz/best100.html. If you can get into Machine Gun this early on and enjoy it, I can't imagine anything else could be considered too difficult.

I grew up playing trumpet/cornet and listened to a lot of Bix, Armstrong, Ellington, Miles and Diz. I burned out and stopped playing as a teen, and didn't start listening to jazz for fun again until college, when I got into Parker, Mingus and Coltrane. The jazz CD reissues got going in the early 90s and I got way into absorbing everything I could find. I started reading a lot more too. The Story of Jazz by Marshall Stearns, originally published in 1956, is a classic. Eric Nisenson's Ascension: John Coltrane and His Quest inspired some deep listening with pretty much every album Coltrane made. It took me a few years before I felt ready for Ascension!

It's definitely fun to jump around and explore recommendations from all over the place. That's a good way to start. After a while if you're still into it, maybe consider doing some chronological sampling. I believe if you truly understand the history and context of each era, you can find stuff that's enjoyable from every stage and style of jazz.

Fastnbulbous, Friday, 4 February 2011 06:22 (3 years ago) Permalink

The Brötzmann Tentet recently put out another 5CD box which is well worth getting hold of. That earlier box is indeed out of print now and documents their earlier days when they were mixing up composed and improvised stuff. They are all about improv now and this new box reflects that.

Also, if you like Brötzmann you would probably like The Thing.

ban this sick stunt (anagram), Friday, 4 February 2011 09:33 (3 years ago) Permalink

i basically got into jazz through the same directions, drones, folk, kraut, psychedelia, hiphop sampling and totally know where you're coming from

it looks like people nailed it in here with the reccs already, esp the 70's miles. i'm glad a tribute to jack johnson got mentioned because yesternow was one of the first tracks of this genre that i ever heard and it all made sense to me instantly. i was listening to a lot of 90's hiphop and ambient jungle at the time and it really hit me how here was a band of live musicians from the 70's basically trying to make the same point, but on a much deeper level. i've been on a quest to find shit that fits that certain vibe, which some people call kosmigroov ever since...

here's an edited copy/paste of a post i made for a similar thread on another forum:

esotericy stuff:
brother ah - any work of his is good
elysian spring - s/t
wali and the afro caravan - home lost and found
don cherry - orgnic music society (not sure but iirc this one has music from the jodorowsky film - the holy mountain)
lumumba - lumumba
roy meriwether - nubian lady (v. funky)
baroque jazz trio - s/t (harpsichord, tabla, upright bass, what more could you want!?)
adele sebastian - desert fairy princess

spiritual jazz:
marion brown - sweet earth flying
marion brown - november cotton flower
eddie gale - black rhythm happening, ghetto music (some really cool blue note action here)
webster lewis - the club 7 tapes (purely for track 1 'do you believe')
jothan callins - winds of change
heikki sarmanto - new hope jazz mass
ensemble al-salaam - the sojourner
mtume - alekbu lan, kawaida, rebirth cycle
gary bartz's 70s output
norman connors - quite a few tunes from his cobblestone albums and his early to mid 70s work
worlds experience orchestra - beginning of a new birth
the pyramids - birth speed merging

moody/complex:
mabumi yamaguchi - mabumi
jorge lópez ruíz - de prepo
tee & company - dragon garden
paul horn & lalo schifrin - jazz suite on the mass texts (this one's more modal mixed with 60s sountrack. there are some very moody passages in there)
hampton hawes - blues for walls (one of those albums with one main gem amongst a bunch of other not so great stuff [if you keep digging for this stuff you will find this to be a recurring thing]... the gem being sun dance)
sadao watanabe - paysages, round trip
gary peacock - voices
kiyoshi sugimoto - babylonia wind
jan garbarek - afric pepperbird

fusiony stuff:
mulatu astatke - mulatu of ethiopia
robin kenyatta - girl from martinique
luis gasca - luis gasca
peter fish - the silver apple
steve grossman - some shapes to come, terra firma (both really rhythmic)
michal urbaniak - constellation (holy polyrhythms batman! pretty fkn far out vocals from urszula dudziak in this one)
stone alliance - s/t (grossman on sax, percussion legend don alias on drums, this one kicks)
wolfgang dauner - loads of his 70s stuff
the lightmen - fancy pants, energy control centre (similar to catalyst)
klauss weiss' records on MPS
yuji imamura's air - air
steve reid - nova
joe mcphee - nation time
arni chatham's thing - thing
soft machine - third this one is technically prog rock but it's rhythmic and deep, so...

the sections are just loose ideas of what to expect. a lot of the albums could be in 2 or more at once. i made a point of going for lesser known LPs because this subject often throws up the same names. obv. you can't beat alice and pharaoh for this shit but who doesn't like the feeling of obscure cool?

i pretty much owe all of these discoveries to the jazz LP blog scene that was really active up until a year or two ago. a lot of this stuff is oop so it might be hard to find in the shops. definitely worth seeking it out through the usual routes, though.

also, if you were to pick one LP to go with from this list, i'd say

mtume - alekbu lan

Ride, Saturday, 5 February 2011 00:55 (3 years ago) Permalink

Tentet

I was wondering the other day what you call a group of ten (and eleven)

bien-pensant vibe (Shakey Mo Collier), Saturday, 5 February 2011 00:58 (3 years ago) Permalink

WOW that is an amazing and obscure list, thanks very much! I'll add those to my shopping list and keep an eye out.

Damn this thread seems so....different without ilxor (ilxor), Saturday, 5 February 2011 02:19 (3 years ago) Permalink

I was wondering the other day what you call a group of ten (and eleven)

It should really be 'decet' but Brötzmann used Tentet and it stuck. And yeah the current line-up has eleven, and tends to get billed as the Tentet +1.

ban this sick stunt (anagram), Saturday, 5 February 2011 05:24 (3 years ago) Permalink

Also, if you like Brötzmann you would probably like The Thing.

― ban this sick stunt (anagram), Friday, February 4, 2011 9:33 AM (Yesterday) Bookmark

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ they come to atx a lot and u must take advantage of this and buy their t-shirts and shit

<3 the thing a lot

HOOS the master?? STEEN NUFF (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Saturday, 5 February 2011 08:03 (3 years ago) Permalink

i never said the necks here...did anyone? they are jazz to me...and absolutely some of the best music i've ever heard. great ilm recommendation.

I see what this is (Local Garda), Saturday, 5 February 2011 18:03 (3 years ago) Permalink

great thread so far! two comments would be;

re: sanders, i don't think he's the guy to go to for frenzied; for me he's far more of a tone guy - just beautiful playing that fits whatever he's asked to do or wants to do so well; he never seems out of control but at the same time whilst being poised and calm and sounding so natural it's also intensely moving and deep.... ilxor you should make Karma the first choice for him... it really is one of the most amazing pieces of music of all time.

also backup what someone said about going to see more live jazz. some of my favourite shows of the last few years have been from Mulatu Astatke, Sun Ra Arkestra, Richard Bishop - after a pretty indie rock dominated diet of live shows, its such a pleasure to watch live jazz! to dudes who can really play! also early this year, The Ex touring with 'Brass Unbound' (Mats Gustafsson, Roy Paci, Ken Vandermark and Wolter Wierbos) was just mindblowing! intense post-punk jamming with those cool konono influences and then those guys blowing the roof off, pushing into the mix with little solos and really having fun showing off to each other - and the mostly indie kids crowd really vibing off it with lots of dancing. SO GOOD.

reallysmoothmusic (Jamie_ATP), Saturday, 5 February 2011 21:59 (3 years ago) Permalink

The Ex touring with 'Brass Unbound' (Mats Gustafsson, Roy Paci, Ken Vandermark and Wolter Wierbos)

oh my god this sounds incredible

HOOS the master?? STEEN NUFF (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Sunday, 6 February 2011 07:47 (3 years ago) Permalink

think it was a one off tour unfortunately

reallysmoothmusic (Jamie_ATP), Sunday, 6 February 2011 10:15 (3 years ago) Permalink

Yeah, I was bummed when the Ex show at Big Ears last year wasn't with BU. They were fantastic as always anyway, but --

where'd ya get that crapp? (pixel farmer), Sunday, 6 February 2011 15:13 (3 years ago) Permalink

How'd the weekend driving/listening go, ilxor?

My Coltrane Impulse Volumes 1 & 2 sets arrived yesterday. So that's 10 discs for less than $60. I'm happy. (Already had A Love Supreme and Live at the Village Vanguard on vinyl, btw.)

Also, Miles' E.S.P. has been hitting hard the last few days. This is from 1965, the first studio effort from the Second Quintet, if I'm not mistaken.

It kind of baffles me to contrast the stuff Miles was doing 65 and after to the stuff Coltrane was doing pre-65. I could be waaay off base here, but seems like Coltrane was pushing the envelope in more obvious ways earlier on. Miles obviously moved his share of mountains, but perhaps in less obvious ways. What I mean is...I hear some of this mid-60's Columbia stuff and while I absolutely adore it, it's not until I read some (usually) musicology analysis of why it's groundbreaking that I realize it's more than just amazing sounding stuff.

Contrast with the Impulse era Coltrane stuff from as early as Africa/Brass (1961)...I hear this and my immediate thought is "woah...dood is *inventing* stuff!"

I'm probably totally full of it. Go gentle.

xtianDC, Tuesday, 8 February 2011 23:20 (3 years ago) Permalink

well Miles was definitely the most high profile jazz guy to abandon both swing AND acoustic instruments and replace them with electrified improv funk-skronk. that was a pretty titanic shift.

lmao reminisces about his days in southern china (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 8 February 2011 23:25 (3 years ago) Permalink

i think that's just it, the impulse coltrane stuff is innovative in really accessible ways. there aren't very many chord changes, and there's a lot for your ear to latch on to -- his sound, great melodies, an incredibly earthy and forceful rhythm section. whereas those miles records often push the envelope in really technical ways...speed, harmonic complexity, messing with the time, etc. it's really crazy shit, right? but it works on more of an intellectual level imo.

bows don't kill people, arrows do (Jordan), Wednesday, 9 February 2011 00:17 (3 years ago) Permalink

btw wayne shorter's "speak no evil" has always seemed like the perfect intersection of the miles and coltrane groups

bows don't kill people, arrows do (Jordan), Wednesday, 9 February 2011 00:19 (3 years ago) Permalink

that's a great album, and funnily enough I've been listening to it a lot lately again

Algerian Goalkeeper, Wednesday, 9 February 2011 00:24 (3 years ago) Permalink

That first Tentet was such a great snapshot of Chicago jazz (and Brotzmann) at the time.

Josh in Chicago, Wednesday, 9 February 2011 01:07 (3 years ago) Permalink

Going to see Wayne Shorter tomorrow night. Have no idea what he's going to play. Am kinda hoping he premieres new music, since he's only made one album featuring his current band and that was back in 2004 or so.

that's not funny. (unperson), Wednesday, 9 February 2011 01:47 (3 years ago) Permalink

One studio album, I mean; the group has also released two live albums, one in 2002 and one in 2005. Both are excellent.

that's not funny. (unperson), Wednesday, 9 February 2011 01:47 (3 years ago) Permalink

Possibly too simplistic, but whereas Coltrane headed toward sheets of sound, in 64-65 Miles went toward sheets of silence.

Groovy Goulet (pixel farmer), Wednesday, 9 February 2011 01:52 (3 years ago) Permalink

How'd the weekend driving/listening go, ilxor?

Hey, thanks for asking! I took an absence from this thread for a while, still playing catch-up. The driving/listening was fantastic, in particular I latched onto one album that I'll hopefully get around to reviewing later tonight once I knock out some actual productive tasks around the house (i.e., NOT SITTING ON ILX).

Teaser: it starts with "C" and ends with "oltrane," if that helps to narrow it down at all...

Damn this thread seems so....different without ilxor (ilxor), Wednesday, 9 February 2011 02:10 (3 years ago) Permalink

By the way, I came across a couple new arrivals in the used bins today. Any thoughts?

John Coltrane - Ballads (from 1962, I believe)
Sun Ra Arkestra - Live at the Paradox (think this is the right title... it said "under the direction of Marshall Allen, so I'm guessing post-'90s live performance -- correct me if I'm wrong)

Damn this thread seems so....different without ilxor (ilxor), Wednesday, 9 February 2011 02:12 (3 years ago) Permalink

(Feel free to close the quotation up there and pretend I'm not an idiot.)

Damn this thread seems so....different without ilxor (ilxor), Wednesday, 9 February 2011 02:13 (3 years ago) Permalink

Ballads is excellent. Don't know anything about the Sun Ra disc, but can't imagine anything recorded post-Ra being worth anyone's time.

that's not funny. (unperson), Wednesday, 9 February 2011 02:15 (3 years ago) Permalink

John Coltrane - Stellar Regions (1967)

This one hit me hard. And it's going to be tough to write about, I have a feeling.

Stellar Regions was recorded a few months before Coltrane's death. I learned this in the liner notes, naturally, but not until I'd played it a few times and heard something very intense, emotionally charged at times, but also at peace, in Coltrane's playing on this record. I'm not sure why his playing grabs at my heartstrings where other jazz albums that I've found enjoyable haven't had such a strong emotional pull. But there's something intangible about Stellar Regions that elevates me to a different place when I'm hearing its music.

There's an imperfect beauty to Coltrane's playing on this record. He starts out most of the tracks laying down a simple motif, a pattern, or a few repeated notes. He repeats it, unchanged, for good measure a few times. And these are *gorgeous* progressions, simple, very beautiful. After a few repetitions, he throws in an off-note, taking it higher up the scale, perhaps. And then a bit further next time, and again, again, until a couple minutes into a piece he's transformed it into something barely resembling its original form. He'll strain to hit notes that his sax seems to barely allow him to play -- screeching, out of tune, as if his instrument is straining to "sing" at the limits of its upper register and can't quite get there. And he sticks to playing these intense, seemingly freeform blasts of notes for sometimes a minute or two, sometimes five, then comes back down... returning to his original motif. Like a rocket ship blasting off to Stellar Regions (see what I did there?) and then coming back down, landing, after a trip into the stars.

I'm not sure how well that describes any of what I've actually heard when I play the album. But it's what came out when I typed, and I'll leave it be. Seems fitting for an album I can put on, close my eyes, and imagine Coltrane closing his eyes as well and playing whatever his heart, mind and hands tell him to play. This isn't a record that impresses me with technique or skill (though I'm sure it's there). It's an emotionally gripping record. A beautiful journey.

Stellar Regions was recorded in a single-day session in 1967, then left unreleased until the mid-'90s when Alice Coltrane started going through her vaults (and God, I hope there's more stuff like this that she's released over the years, I'd eat it up).

Rating: ✰✰✰✰✰

Damn this thread seems so....different without ilxor (ilxor), Wednesday, 9 February 2011 02:56 (3 years ago) Permalink

By the way, holy shit you guys, LOOK AT THAT EVOCATIVE COVER ART!!

A+

Damn this thread seems so....different without ilxor (ilxor), Wednesday, 9 February 2011 02:57 (3 years ago) Permalink

this guy

HOOS the master?? STEEN NUFF (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Wednesday, 9 February 2011 04:47 (3 years ago) Permalink

OTM. great record, unique in his catalog (though disco 3000 is comparable, i guess

oh I dunno I think it's of a piece with several others - On Jupiter, Strange Celestial Road, Sleeping Beauty. Lanquidity is probably the out and out funkiest though.

I think there seems to be a whole era of his around that late '70s/early '80s mark that has a lot of that sort of stuff. Though I guess he was also doing acoustic material through a lot of that era too. Certainly finding a lot of electric space funk turning up around then.
Still slowly wading through Detroit Jazz Centre from the Xmas to New Year week in '80. Has some sublime stuff on.

Listening to Where Pathways Meet on my walkman yesterday, possibly because it's a big band playing but the music lanscape seems to stretch out for miles. yum.

Stevolende, Wednesday, 9 February 2011 11:30 (3 years ago) Permalink

btw wayne shorter's "speak no evil" has always seemed like the perfect intersection of the miles and coltrane groups

It is, but don't forget JuJu, although I guess the backup is all Coltrane on that one.

T.V.O.D. Party (James Redd and the Blecchs), Wednesday, 9 February 2011 15:31 (3 years ago) Permalink

Looks like the Sun Ra album I mentioned upthread, Live at the Paradox, was recorded during a September 2008 residency and released in 2009. Four tracks penned by Sun Ra, four by Marshall Allen. Gonna pass on it for now, methinks...

http://www.amazon.com/Live-Paradox-Arkestra-Marshall-Allen/dp/B001U1K5R6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1297273114&sr=8-1

Damn this thread seems so....different without ilxor (ilxor), Wednesday, 9 February 2011 17:40 (3 years ago) Permalink

I'm listening to Mostly Other People Do The Killing's double live CD on Clean Feed, The Coimbra Concert, and it's fucking amazing. This band kicks so, so much ass. The lineup is Peter Evans on trumpet, Jon Irabagon (profiled in Burning Ambulance #3!) on saxophones, Moppa Elliott (who writes all their material) on bass and Kevin Shea on drums. The music is hard-swinging free bop, basically, but they throw in old-style New Orleans polyphony, extended solo horn passages including circular breathing, skronky free stuff, and much more; it kinda reminds me of Wynton Marsalis's 7CD Village Vanguard box crossed with Sonny Rollins's Our Man In Jazz. Really, really exciting stuff.

that's not funny. (unperson), Wednesday, 9 February 2011 17:53 (3 years ago) Permalink

I don't know that particular Live at the Paradox set but imho the Arkestra under Marshall Allen is still a great live show. I saw them as part of Arthur Nights several years ago (w/Wayne Kramer sitting in lol) and they were the high point of the show.

lmao reminisces about his days in southern china (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 9 February 2011 18:05 (3 years ago) Permalink

The lineup is Peter Evans on trumpet, Jon Irabagon (profiled in Burning Ambulance #3!) on saxophones, Moppa Elliott (who writes all their material) on bass and Kevin Shea on drums.

have i gushed about how awesome Peter Evans is on this thread? Kevin Shea is great, and also funny.

sarahel, Thursday, 10 February 2011 06:39 (3 years ago) Permalink

Anyone read those Ashley Kahn books on Kind of Blue and A Love Supreme? I wonder if reading those would be a worthwhile exercise for me; using my most familiar recordings as a basis/springboard for some general knowledge about jazz in general.

I found them very interesting. I remember the Miles one better possibly because of the citing of influence by other musicians. It went into how several JBs and Duane Allman among others were directly influenced in their musical thinking.

Both were fascinating though

Stevolende, Thursday, 10 February 2011 09:58 (3 years ago) Permalink

re: sanders, i don't think he's the guy to go to for frenzied; for me he's far more of a tone guy - just beautiful playing that fits whatever he's asked to do or wants to do so well; he never seems out of control but at the same time whilst being poised and calm and sounding so natural it's also intensely moving and deep.... ilxor you should make Karma the first choice for him... it really is one of the most amazing pieces of music of all time.

The frenzied stuff is his earliest, the ESP discs and live with Trane.
Think he worked beyond that shortly after Trane died, though there are elements on his late 60s/early 70s work if I'm thinking right.
Not listened to Karma in a while, but isn't there a honking section somewhere in Creator's half hour plus?

Stevolende, Thursday, 10 February 2011 11:42 (3 years ago) Permalink

ilxor i suggest you check this hard, hard track. shepp is a monster on it

bear, bear, bear, Thursday, 10 February 2011 11:58 (3 years ago) Permalink

I could be waaay off base here, but seems like Coltrane was pushing the envelope in more obvious ways earlier on. Miles obviously moved his share of mountains, but perhaps in less obvious ways. What I mean is...I hear some of this mid-60's Columbia stuff and while I absolutely adore it, it's not until I read some (usually) musicology analysis of why it's groundbreaking that I realize it's more than just amazing sounding stuff.

I would tend to think that you are thinking from a perspective permeated by innovations brought in years earlier. Subsequently you wouldn't really notice what changes were being made on historic recordings since you were living in the result of those changes.
Might depend on which record you were talking about too. & some stuff might be more subtle than others anyway.
Coltrane was inventing on the stand all the time & doing so inside solos. One of Miles innovations involved spontaneous group improvisation, would that provide a reason it was so noticeable?

Stevolende, Thursday, 10 February 2011 11:58 (3 years ago) Permalink

Listening to Coltrane Live at Birdland right now and this is gorgeous stuff. Hard to really give it my full attention at work with a cheap earbud in one ear, but even then it's really something. Loving it. Will listen closely soon.

I need to go back through the past 1-2 weeks of recommendations here and add them to the master list I've made... yikes!

So much good music.

Damn this thread seems so....different without ilxor (ilxor), Thursday, 10 February 2011 17:25 (3 years ago) Permalink

Coltrane was inventing on the stand all the time & doing so inside solos. One of Miles innovations involved spontaneous group improvisation, would that provide a reason it was so noticeable?

― Stevolende, Thursday, February 10, 2011 6:58 AM Bookmark

Not sure what you mean by this, esp. "spontaneous group improvisation." Group improvisation goes back to new orleans jazz, and there are varying degrees of it in almost any kind of jazz. Do you mean the particular way he loosened the bebop structure with the 60s quintet? I don't think he so much innovated group improvisation as played around with the parameters of group improvisation.

But yeah I tend to think that a lot of Coltrane's innovation was in terms of what the soloist does (though he pushed other boundaries in his last few years), whereas Miles was more interested in changing the group dynamic.

hey boys, suppers on me, our video just went bacterial (Hurting 2), Thursday, 10 February 2011 18:18 (3 years ago) Permalink

stevolende, do you also post on IHM?

sarahel, Thursday, 10 February 2011 20:21 (3 years ago) Permalink

So I've been listening to less jazz in recent weeks. Overdid it a bit, I think. But now I'm spinning some records again. Anyone heard the following? Saw these over the weekend for pretty cheap:

Coltrane, John - Living Space
Coltrane, John - The John Coltrane Quartet Plays
Hancock, Herbie - Maiden Voyage
Sun Ra - Space Is the Place

Damn this thread seems so....different without ilxor (ilxor), Monday, 21 February 2011 21:22 (3 years ago) Permalink

you need the herbie and the sun ra! go buy now! quick!!!

Algerian Goalkeeper, Monday, 21 February 2011 21:23 (3 years ago) Permalink

The Herbie is a '60s Blue Note thing, looks and probably sounds v different from '70s space-fusion Herbie. And the Sun Ra is on Impulse—his highest profile release I've come across to date.

Damn this thread seems so....different without ilxor (ilxor), Monday, 21 February 2011 21:24 (3 years ago) Permalink

it is, but its terrific blue note hard bop

Algerian Goalkeeper, Monday, 21 February 2011 21:26 (3 years ago) Permalink

that sun ra is prob my fave

Algerian Goalkeeper, Monday, 21 February 2011 21:26 (3 years ago) Permalink

yeah dude maiden voyage is a quintessential record of that genre, it is a requirement to at least hear it at some point

HOOS the master?? STEEN NUFF (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Tuesday, 22 February 2011 04:30 (3 years ago) Permalink

Well hey, I picked it up today for $4 so rest assured I'll be hearing it soon!

Damn this thread seems so....different without ilxor (ilxor), Tuesday, 22 February 2011 04:33 (3 years ago) Permalink

$4 seems so cheap for a quality used jazz CD, but that shit is still like, a fuckin 6" Subway sandwich. Is Maiden Voyage better than a 6" turkey on wheat w/ all the veggies? Where is Whiney G. when I need him?? ;_;

Damn this thread seems so....different without ilxor (ilxor), Tuesday, 22 February 2011 04:34 (3 years ago) Permalink

lmao

HOOS the master?? STEEN NUFF (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Tuesday, 22 February 2011 04:35 (3 years ago) Permalink

I only skimmed the thread, but i didn't seen anyone mention the Duke Ellington album ...And His Mother Called Him Bill. It was in dedication to his arranger who past called Bill Strayhorn. My co-worker burnt me a copy. I would suggest this album to ilxor if he likes jazz music that calms you and makes you reflect on life.

***My only sheepish contribution to this thread***

Runs Away

Okay Pet Shop Boys Aren't That Bad. (lilsoulbrother), Tuesday, 22 February 2011 05:49 (3 years ago) Permalink

Ahh...was curious how you were doing with this, ilxor. Thanks for the update.

My Coltrane obsession has kind of gone full-bloom. I've been slowing making my way through the Impulse! records (Africa/Brass through A Love Supreme) and just finding myself getting more and more sucked in. Loving the way each album becomes more and more ingrained and enjoyable with each listen. That self-titled 1962 album has become a favorite. Keep reaching for that one, it seems. At first, the mellow and traditional vibe of the Duke Ellington and Johnny Hartman records (as well as Ballads) kind of threw me for a loop, but I find them to be the perfect album to either begin or end a day with.

Such great amazing music and to imagine how I am not even beginning to scratch the surface is kind of daunting and fantastic.

xtianDC, Tuesday, 22 February 2011 16:15 (3 years ago) Permalink

Also, I recently picked up a vinyl copy of Coltrane's "Om". Woah. That is some ish for which I am not quite sure I am ready...

xtianDC, Tuesday, 22 February 2011 16:23 (3 years ago) Permalink

That self-titled 1962 album has become a favorite

Yeah, that's one of my favourites too! 'Out of this World' is absolutely gorgeous.

ka£ka (NickB), Tuesday, 22 February 2011 16:30 (3 years ago) Permalink

Also, I recently picked up a vinyl copy of Coltrane's "Om". Woah. That is some ish for which I am not quite sure I am ready...

Jealous

Algerian Goalkeeper, Tuesday, 22 February 2011 16:43 (3 years ago) Permalink

Coltrane's Meditations is popular, but I don't see First Meditations (For Quartet) mentioned much. I think I like that one even better, up there with 1964's Crescent, with Transition just behind it, and then The John Coltrane Quartet Plays and Sun Ship. All are essential 1965 Coltrane. The 1962 Coltrane is nearly perfect too. Hard to go wrong with him.

Fastnbulbous, Tuesday, 22 February 2011 16:58 (3 years ago) Permalink

lol I thought everyone hated Om. For some reason it is the only Coltrane I have on vinyl

ice cr?m's world of female people (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 22 February 2011 17:09 (3 years ago) Permalink

the Impulse Space is the Place (assuming that's what yr talking about - several different records have been released under that title) is great. hits a bunch of his different styles, with the Arkestra arguably at their peak

ice cr?m's world of female people (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 22 February 2011 17:09 (3 years ago) Permalink

^^^like I just got this recently and it is entirely different from both the official film soundtrack and the Impulse album

ice cr?m's world of female people (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 22 February 2011 17:10 (3 years ago) Permalink

I Like Om a lot

Algerian Goalkeeper, Tuesday, 22 February 2011 17:11 (3 years ago) Permalink

"Space is the Place" on Impulse! was my introduction to Sun Ra. It's lots of fun, especially the title track, but I wouldn't say it's his best album.

Pisle of dogs (seandalai), Tuesday, 22 February 2011 17:28 (3 years ago) Permalink

I don't think it's his best either - but it's not a bad sampler/overview

ice cr?m's world of female people (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 22 February 2011 17:30 (3 years ago) Permalink

The actual soundtrack on ESP or whatever is better.

Fig On A Plate Cart (Alex in SF), Tuesday, 22 February 2011 17:33 (3 years ago) Permalink

wouldn't even really call "maiden voyage" hard bop, more post-hard bob or something, more open, less bluesy. it's fantastic, of course.

tylerw, Tuesday, 22 February 2011 17:37 (3 years ago) Permalink

so happen to be listening to Ascension at the moment... is it me or does the beginning quote Blue Train...?

ice cr?m's world of female people (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 22 February 2011 17:58 (3 years ago) Permalink

My copy of Space is the Place (yes, on Impulse) looks like this:

Damn this thread seems so....different without ilxor (ilxor), Tuesday, 22 February 2011 18:56 (3 years ago) Permalink

great album

Algerian Goalkeeper, Tuesday, 22 February 2011 18:57 (3 years ago) Permalink

Good old Space 15 The Place

ka£ka (NickB), Tuesday, 22 February 2011 19:03 (3 years ago) Permalink

Strange Celestial Roads is still one of my favourite Sun Ra records. It's also one of the most laid back things I've heard him do. It lacks the overt out-thereness of a lot of his stuff and it all potters by at quite a sedate pace, but I'm really quite happy to just sit and listen to it and drift off into the far reaches of the galaxy. What else did he do along the same sort of lines?

ka£ka (NickB), Tuesday, 22 February 2011 19:08 (3 years ago) Permalink

^^^great album. in a similar vein:

Sleeping Beauty
On Jupiter
Lanquidity (altho this does get a little out/uptempo in places)

ice cr?m's world of female people (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 22 February 2011 19:14 (3 years ago) Permalink

Cool, thanks guys!

ka£ka (NickB), Tuesday, 22 February 2011 19:25 (3 years ago) Permalink

that was to ilxor btw

Algerian Goalkeeper, Tuesday, 22 February 2011 19:26 (3 years ago) Permalink

I was gonna say - that is not a particularly mellow/lilting pair of Sun Ra albums...

ice cr?m's world of female people (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 22 February 2011 19:58 (3 years ago) Permalink

haha yes, I hope he didn't rush out to buy it expecting some quiet disc

Algerian Goalkeeper, Tuesday, 22 February 2011 21:22 (3 years ago) Permalink

Wayne Shorter - Speak No Evil (1964)

I've not had enough time for jazz in February (finally picked up some new releases, started a small writing gig that's eaten up some of my time, etc.) but here's a quick review of a very nice album that I've been playing.

This is a really gorgeous album. Overall an easy listen: there's a sense of relaxation, cool and confidence throughout. The playing is well-paced, never forceful. Strong melodies abound. To hear Shorter playing alongside Herbie Hancock (whose playing here sounds similar to his same-era Blue Note album, Maiden voyage) is a treat.

I get a strong sense of composition from these songs. Everything seems very much thought out and measured, not in an overcooked sense, but in a master songwriting way. I could be wrong (and I've not read any background on this album yet) but this doesn't have a sense of meandering improvisation like Coltrane or Ornette Coleman do on many of their recordings. And this is in no sense "masturbatory" jazz: Shorter never seems like he's showing off his chops, even though he's clearly got them. This is a master of his instrument using his skills toward something far more measured, elegant and beautifully restrained than others would have the discipline to do.

Beyond all of that, I get a very real sense of joy from these recordings. It sounds like Shorter, Freddie Hubbard (trumpet), Herbie Hancock (piano) and the other fellas are having fun here. It makes me happy to hear these songs. I don't hear much tension in this album... simply the joy of playing music.

Rating: ✰✰✰✰

Damn this thread seems so....different without ilxor (ilxor), Thursday, 24 February 2011 15:27 (3 years ago) Permalink

Freddie Hubbard (trumpet), Herbie Hancock (piano)

Haha, can't believe I listed this stuff out at the END of the review. I think I wrote this part first, then added to the beginning and forgot to take out the lol obvious full name + instrument statements here.

Damn this thread seems so....different without ilxor (ilxor), Thursday, 24 February 2011 15:30 (3 years ago) Permalink

Nice review, ilxor. Glad you're keeping this thread going. I need to hit the shop and pick up that used copy of Juju I saw recently. I read somewhere that with Speak No Evil Shorter was really branching out with new players, as he was trying to disprove those who dismissed him as simply a Coltrane-acolyte (on the preceding Juju he is backed by Tyner/Garrison/Jones).

NP: Alice Coltrane, Ptah The El Daoud (this is really doing it for me this am)

xtianDC, Thursday, 24 February 2011 16:56 (3 years ago) Permalink

Cool, I'm watching for Juju... pretty sure that's counted among his "great" records, right?

Love that Alice Coltrane album, need to post some thoughts on it. Played it endlessly the night before a 50 mile trail run a few wks ago... perfect way to get in the right frame of mind to run for 12 hours. :)

Damn this thread seems so....different without ilxor (ilxor), Thursday, 24 February 2011 17:04 (3 years ago) Permalink

Woah, that is some intense running! So have you found any jazz albums in particular that are well suited for a running playlist?

xtianDC, Thursday, 24 February 2011 17:11 (3 years ago) Permalink

Actually, I haven't uploaded my jazz albums to iTunes/iPod yet, for a few reasons. Mainly that I don't have enough hard-drive space at the moment (UGH) but also, I'm enjoying listening to them in long-form mode, not on shuffle.

Damn this thread seems so....different without ilxor (ilxor), Thursday, 24 February 2011 17:15 (3 years ago) Permalink

dude, ilxor, i don't think i've ever heard a wayne shorter record that wasn't great. his initial run of 6 or so records is pretty flawless. my favorite is either the all-seeing eye or adam's apple.

Brad Nelson (BradNelson), Thursday, 24 February 2011 17:17 (3 years ago) Permalink

OT: ilxor I haven't checked the running thread for a long, long time cos I've been injured and didn't want to fill it up with dreary moaning but this -> "50 mile trail run" is hardcore & props 2 U

ka£ka (NickB), Thursday, 24 February 2011 17:18 (3 years ago) Permalink

his initial run of 6 or so records is pretty flawless.

Talking about his run of solo records starting in '64 or so, all on Blue Note?

Damn this thread seems so....different without ilxor (ilxor), Thursday, 24 February 2011 17:23 (3 years ago) Permalink

hell yeah

Brad Nelson (BradNelson), Thursday, 24 February 2011 17:34 (3 years ago) Permalink

ilxor, your description of shorter is very insightful and otm. I think he's always slightly underrated as a composer, and what he does as an improviser is always informed by senses of composition and restraint, even though it's also very searching and expressive.

The Corner Stander, The Suggest Ban Hammer (Hurting 2), Thursday, 24 February 2011 19:31 (3 years ago) Permalink

shorter was pretty unstoppable in the 60s -- his stuff with the Jazz Messengers is great, too.

tylerw, Thursday, 24 February 2011 19:36 (3 years ago) Permalink

Need volunteers for the resumed http://www.ilxor.com/ILX/ThreadSelectedControllerServlet?boardid=41&threadid=79981#unread

Algerian Goalkeeper, Monday, 28 February 2011 16:46 (3 years ago) Permalink

that is ILX0RS: JAZZ IS THE TEACHER. YEAH, IT'S A JAZZ THING >> THE ILM JAZZ LISTENING CLUB! [NEW CHOICES EVERY WEDNESDAY!] btw

Algerian Goalkeeper, Monday, 28 February 2011 16:47 (3 years ago) Permalink

Question regarding Alice Coltrane: I have and love both Journey in Satchidananda and Ptah the El Daoud. Noticed over the weekend that my local now has used copies of The Monastic Trio, Universal Consciousness and the live one from the later seventies (Transfiguration, I think?). Anyone care to comment on the essential-ness of any of these titles?

xtianDC, Monday, 28 February 2011 18:22 (3 years ago) Permalink

I don't view Monastic Trio as particularly essential, 'cause a piano trio is a piano trio. Universal Consciousness, though, is fucking great. Worth it for "Battle at Armageddon" alone, an organ-drums duo with Rashied Ali which totally lives up to its title. Transfiguration is also pretty apocalyptic and totally worthwhile, if a little overwhelming at times. Of the three, I'd go with UC.

that's not funny. (unperson), Monday, 28 February 2011 18:32 (3 years ago) Permalink

yeah Universal Consciousness is great

ice cr?m's world of female people (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 28 February 2011 18:42 (3 years ago) Permalink

Noticed over the weekend that my local now has used copies of The Monastic Trio, Universal Consciousness and the live one from the later seventies (Transfiguration, I think?). Anyone care to comment on the essential-ness of any of these titles?

Not essential. No, none of them... not essential at all. Pick them up immediately and mail them to me. I'll do the listening so you don't have to waste your time.

Damn this thread seems so....different without ilxor (ilxor), Monday, 28 February 2011 19:15 (3 years ago) Permalink

shakey & co are you taking a week in the newly reformed jazz club?

Algerian Goalkeeper, Monday, 28 February 2011 19:30 (3 years ago) Permalink

Not essential. No, none of them... not essential at all. Pick them up immediately and mail them to me. I'll do the listening so you don't have to waste your time.

Haha. If it's any consolation, ilxor, the used prices you are paying seem quite a bit lower than what is available around here. I believe these were all priced in the $8.99 and up range. I know that UC is waaay out of print, though. And it just so happens that I had forgotten that a copy of that album recently....uhhh...fell off a truck and I have a copy in my iTunes to check out.

To be honest, I almost wanted to buy The Monastic Trio alone for its awesome typography:

xtianDC, Monday, 28 February 2011 19:41 (3 years ago) Permalink

the two best jazz albums are

bill evans - sunday at the village vanguard
eric dolphy - iron man

so get those!

uberweiss, Monday, 28 February 2011 21:24 (3 years ago) Permalink

I don't view Monastic Trio as particularly essential, 'cause a piano trio is a piano trio.

I agree that it's not ranked with Universal Consciousness necessarily but I find Monastic Trio interesting precisely because it shows Alice doing her thing in the context of "just a piano trio," sessions like that really give a player the opportunity to make their style clear imo, so that's why I love it.

HOOStory is back. Fasten your steenbelts. (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Tuesday, 1 March 2011 00:43 (3 years ago) Permalink

Phil, how does Monastic Trio compare to Schlippenbach Trio?

sarahel, Tuesday, 1 March 2011 01:02 (3 years ago) Permalink

Found all of these at the record shop over my lunch hour (and can't recall any being discussed to date). Going back after 5pm this afternoon to get several. Which of these are most worth hearing?

Don Cherry - Symphony for Improvisers
Joe Henderson - In Japan
Thelonious Monk - Solo Monk
Thelonious Monk - Underground
Evan Parker Electro-Acoustic Ensemble - The Eleventh Hour
Sun Ra - Concert for the Comet Kohoutek
Cecil Taylor - Conquistador!
Cecil Taylor - Dark to Themselves
John Zorn - Elegy
John Zorn - Angelus Novus

Damn this thread seems so....different without ilxor (ilxor), Thursday, 3 March 2011 20:19 (3 years ago) Permalink

Phil, how does Monastic Trio compare to Schlippenbach Trio?

I'm not much of a Schlippenbach guy; I've only heard one quartet disc (the trio you're talking about, I think, plus Evan Parker) and two discs of solo stuff. None of it particularly made me want to hear any more.

that's not funny. (unperson), Thursday, 3 March 2011 20:38 (3 years ago) Permalink

unperson: can you comment on any of those records above?

Damn this thread seems so....different without ilxor (ilxor), Thursday, 3 March 2011 21:14 (3 years ago) Permalink

And where's AG today??

Damn this thread seems so....different without ilxor (ilxor), Thursday, 3 March 2011 21:14 (3 years ago) Permalink

Out of those, I've only heard Underground, but that one's a true five-star album. It swings like hell, and it's a good showcase for both Monk's chops as a pianist, and his songwriting talent.

Tuomas, Thursday, 3 March 2011 21:17 (3 years ago) Permalink

solo monk is great too

adult music person (Jordan), Thursday, 3 March 2011 21:19 (3 years ago) Permalink

Kohoutek is awesome, one of my favorite live Sun Ra recs along with Life Is Splendid.

sleeve, Thursday, 3 March 2011 21:19 (3 years ago) Permalink

hmmm really... I have always bagged off picking it up. I share yr love of Life is Splendid tho

ridiculous, uncalled for slap (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 3 March 2011 21:21 (3 years ago) Permalink

The cover art is so amateur-looking on that Sun Ra record that I can understand being put off.

Damn this thread seems so....different without ilxor (ilxor), Thursday, 3 March 2011 21:23 (3 years ago) Permalink

well that kinda comes with the territory (altho there are a ton of gorgeous sleeves as well)

ridiculous, uncalled for slap (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 3 March 2011 21:28 (3 years ago) Permalink

Schlippenbach Trio is great.

ban this sick stunt (anagram), Thursday, 3 March 2011 21:29 (3 years ago) Permalink

-VS-

Damn this thread seems so....different without ilxor (ilxor), Thursday, 3 March 2011 21:32 (3 years ago) Permalink

can't say I like either of those lol

You hurt me deeply. You hurt me deeply in my heart. (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 3 March 2011 21:49 (3 years ago) Permalink

^^^that's my shit right there

You hurt me deeply. You hurt me deeply in my heart. (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 3 March 2011 21:50 (3 years ago) Permalink

that looks better than most ppl's shit iirc

Damn this thread seems so....different without ilxor (ilxor), Thursday, 3 March 2011 21:53 (3 years ago) Permalink

Can't remember if I linked this already; http://sickmouthy.com/2011/01/16/top-ten-jazz-albums/

lol sickmouthy (Scik Mouthy), Thursday, 3 March 2011 21:55 (3 years ago) Permalink

wtf dude most of your list is neither recent nor European...?

You hurt me deeply. You hurt me deeply in my heart. (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 3 March 2011 21:58 (3 years ago) Permalink

nice list ... don't think the applause on "mercy mercy mercy" is overdubbed, i think they just invited their friends to the studio, had an open bar and pretended they were at a club.

tylerw, Thursday, 3 March 2011 22:02 (3 years ago) Permalink

Only 20%, aye (wrote the intro before I picked the actual list!) but that's still 20% more than any other list I've seen. Should have out Tuesday Wonderland by e.s.t. on there, and maybe Freak In by Dave Douglas.

lol sickmouthy (Scik Mouthy), Thursday, 3 March 2011 22:04 (3 years ago) Permalink

And Modern Day Jazz Stories by Courtney Pine!

lol sickmouthy (Scik Mouthy), Thursday, 3 March 2011 22:07 (3 years ago) Permalink

you need
Cecil Taylor - Conquistador!

Algerian Goalkeeper, Thursday, 3 March 2011 22:10 (3 years ago) Permalink

Tell me more about it!

Damn this thread seems so....different without ilxor (ilxor), Thursday, 3 March 2011 22:15 (3 years ago) Permalink

Don Cherry - Symphony for Improvisers [Have it but haven't listened to it in a long long time]
Joe Henderson - In Japan [never heard it]
Thelonious Monk - Solo Monk [awesome]
Thelonious Monk - Underground [awesome]
Evan Parker Electro-Acoustic Ensemble - The Eleventh Hour [haven't heard it; not a Parker fan generally]
Sun Ra - Concert for the Comet Kohoutek [haven't heard it; have expressed myself on Ra upthread]
Cecil Taylor - Conquistador! [love love love this album; much better than Unit Structures]
Cecil Taylor - Dark to Themselves [awesome but forbidding - a single 65-minute piece; band includes David S. Ware]
John Zorn - Elegy [haven't heard it]
John Zorn - Angelus Novus [haven't heard it]

that's not funny. (unperson), Thursday, 3 March 2011 23:14 (3 years ago) Permalink

You should listen to Cherry's Symphony for Improvisers tonight and report back.

(Thanks, btw!)

Damn this thread seems so....different without ilxor (ilxor), Thursday, 3 March 2011 23:45 (3 years ago) Permalink

Joe Henderson - In Japan

this is ok. i tend to lose my shit over joe henderson in general, really heady stuff that makes you want to listen hard to his playing and how he interacts with the band, but he doesn't do it so much on this record. iirc he was flown in and playing with a group he didn't really know. they acquit themselves well, but it's not exactly telepathic communication.

HOOStory is back. Fasten your steenbelts. (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Friday, 4 March 2011 01:25 (3 years ago) Permalink

Joe Henderson - In Japan has one track that I think is amazing -- Junk Blues -- and the rest is just ok.

The Corner Stander, The Suggest Ban Hammer (Hurting 2), Friday, 4 March 2011 01:28 (3 years ago) Permalink

Actually maybe not AMAZING, but a very good high-speed modal blowout with some pretty excellent playing from a Japanese rhythm section I had never previously heard of.

The Corner Stander, The Suggest Ban Hammer (Hurting 2), Friday, 4 March 2011 01:38 (3 years ago) Permalink

Sun Ra - Concert for the Comet Kohoutek

Not really crazy about this one, and I'm a Sun Ra fan (though a picky one). The possibly unintentionally sped up version of "Englightenment" (one of the musicians has reportedly said he cannot play that fast, after hearing this recording--I forget the source for that) is worth hearing at least. It's among Sun Ra's more depressing recordings, due to the content of some of the spoken word. I suppose the transcendent stuff is supposed to come in at the end and come to the rescue, but unfortunately: "This is not life! This is not life! This is DEATH! disguised as life. . ." feels too true for me much of the time. It's been a while since I've heard this album. Not sure what I'd think now.

_Rudipherous_, Friday, 4 March 2011 01:55 (3 years ago) Permalink

Picked these up confidently, for starters:

Thelonious Monk - Solo Monk
Thelonious Monk - Underground
Cecil Taylor - Conquistador!

Bought these to kick off my exposure to Henderson/Parker/Zorn, though I'm not sure if I'll like all of 'em (especially Zorn from what I've heard about his aesthetic/style/etc.):

Joe Henderson - In Japan
Evan Parker Electro-Acoustic Ensemble - The Eleventh Hour
John Zorn - Elegy
John Zorn - Angelus Novus

Wanted to get this, but decided to wait for the remastered version to come around:

Don Cherry - Symphony for Improvisers

Held off for now:

Sun Ra - Concert for the Comet Kohoutek
Cecil Taylor - Dark to Themselves

Damn this thread seems so....different without ilxor (ilxor), Friday, 4 March 2011 14:36 (3 years ago) Permalink

Not sure the Electroacoustic Ensemble stuff is the place to start with Parker, it's good but somewhat of a byway in his huge discography. If you like Stetson then you'd be better off going for one of Parker's solo sax recordings like The Snake Decides or Conic Sections. My favourite Parker line-up would be his trio with Barry Guy and Paul Lytton, they've done a number of albums of which At the Vortex (1996) is my favourite. Also key: his trio with Alex von Schlippenbach and Paul Lovens, of which Winterreise comes recommended.

ban this sick stunt (anagram), Friday, 4 March 2011 15:06 (3 years ago) Permalink

Thanks, I'll keep all of that in mind. This is actually (as far as I can recall) the first Parker disc I've come across in the used bins... oftentimes I just take what I can get when it comes along. :)

Damn this thread seems so....different without ilxor (ilxor), Friday, 4 March 2011 15:13 (3 years ago) Permalink

Actually now I come to think of it Ken Vandermark would be another name to conjure with, he doesn't often play solo but he's a more visceral, less abstract player than Parker and thus might appeal more to the Stetson-lover in you. Like all these guys he has a voluminous discography with vast numbers of shifting and ad hoc line-ups. One that I'm particularly fond of would be his duo with Norwegian drummer Paal Nilssen-Love, they put out a breathtaking pair of CDs last year called Chicago Volume and Milwaukee Volume.

ban this sick stunt (anagram), Friday, 4 March 2011 15:21 (3 years ago) Permalink

conic sections is the shit! really easy to lose yourself in that one.

(⊙_⊙?) (Alan N), Saturday, 5 March 2011 18:55 (3 years ago) Permalink

Thelonious Monk - Underground [awesome]

hmmm, really? out of the twenty or so Monks i've heard/own, that is the ONLY one that hasn't impressed. something about that band is just not right to me and it never takes off

xposts

KC & the sunshine banned (outdoor_miner), Saturday, 5 March 2011 19:00 (3 years ago) Permalink

Not sure the Electroacoustic Ensemble stuff is the place to start with Parker, it's good but somewhat of a byway in his huge discography.

Chiming in to say you're totally right. The Electro-Acoustic Ensemble stuff hasn't clicked at all yet, a couple plays in. The best way I can describe it is that I've found lots of jazz where I can't believe the kind of stuff that comes out of just one player at times: like, I'll listen to Ornette or someone and think, how does ONE MAN do all that?? With Parker's 11-man ensemble, I'd hoped it would sound like a BIG group, where I could hear each person contributing to the overall pieces... but honestly, it just sounds like one or two guys fucking around with some electronics.

Damn this thread seems so....different without ilxor (ilxor), Tuesday, 8 March 2011 14:57 (3 years ago) Permalink

Also haven't clicked with Zorn's Elegy or Angelus Novus at all... zzzzzzz, back to the record bins they go. Gonna swap out for some more interesting jazz (or maybe just that Teardrop Explodes - Kilimanjaro reissue...).

Damn this thread seems so....different without ilxor (ilxor), Tuesday, 8 March 2011 14:58 (3 years ago) Permalink

Thelonious Monk - Underground (awesome)

hmmm, really? out of the twenty or so Monks i've heard/own, that is the ONLY one that hasn't impressed. something about that band is just not right to me and it never takes off

xposts

― KC & the sunshine banned (outdoor_miner), Saturday, March 5, 2011 2:00 PM Bookmark

Yeah, but it has Green Chimneys. Also perhaps the greatest jazz liner notes ever.

bury my heart at wounded nerd (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 8 March 2011 15:07 (3 years ago) Permalink

you should check out some of the Masada stuff if you get a chance

adult music person (Jordan), Tuesday, 8 March 2011 15:13 (3 years ago) Permalink

I shared this in the Capital Swamp thread, but wanted to make sure ilxor saw it too. This has been on repeat for me the last two days:

So Pharoah Sanders played a free lunch time concert at Howard University last week. Unfortunately I was out of town. Pains me to have missed it. Also look for a beautiful rendition of Coltrane's "Naimi" from the same account.

Man, I have GOT to get a copy of Karma!

xtianDC, Wednesday, 9 March 2011 18:05 (3 years ago) Permalink

I listened to Wynton Marsalis's Black Codes (From The Underground) for the first time this week.

that's not funny. (unperson), Wednesday, 9 March 2011 18:10 (3 years ago) Permalink

Sanders' Impulse Years sampler has the full length "Creator" on it too, if that's easier to find.

nickn, Wednesday, 9 March 2011 18:21 (3 years ago) Permalink

Sounds like I should check out the Capital Swamp thread. Will check out the video tonight. Thanks!!

Damn this thread seems so....different without ilxor (ilxor), Wednesday, 9 March 2011 18:22 (3 years ago) Permalink

Karma can be had at fair prices on Amazon/eBay used, btw.

Damn this thread seems so....different without ilxor (ilxor), Wednesday, 9 March 2011 18:22 (3 years ago) Permalink

Picked up a few of those Impulse! Story compilations the other day. Found 'em cheap for John and Alice Coltrane (each individually) as well as Archie Shepp. Pretty basic, single-disc overview of each.

thank you ilxor for starting this much needed thread (ilxor), Friday, 11 March 2011 21:41 (3 years ago) Permalink

i like black codes. have you read that Do the Math interview with Wynton where they break down some of the playing on Live at Blues Alley?

adult music person (Jordan), Friday, 11 March 2011 22:01 (3 years ago) Permalink

btw that reminds me ilxor, you should hear my favorite jazz record of the '90s (and all-time classic), kenny garrett's songbook. great, accessible melodies with amazing playing by kenny kirkland, eric revis, and jeff "tain" watts (all musicians associated with branford and wynton at one time).

adult music person (Jordan), Friday, 11 March 2011 22:03 (3 years ago) Permalink

ive been meaning to check that out can u hook me up J?

deej, Friday, 11 March 2011 22:43 (3 years ago) Permalink

yeah, i'll try and rip it this weekend

adult music person (Jordan), Friday, 11 March 2011 22:49 (3 years ago) Permalink

Ashley Kahn's book on Impulse! is currently $2.94 at Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/House-That-Trane-Built-Impulse/dp/0393330710/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1300222272&sr=1-1

What a steal! I'm reading his book on A Love Supreme right now and it's excellent.

Picked up today the following slabs of vinyl today:
Pharoah Sanders "Jewels Of Thought" (my first Pharoah solo!)
Freddie Hubbard "The Artistry Of..."
Sonny Rollins "...On Impulse!"

I can't resist those lovely black and orange spines...

xtianDC, Tuesday, 15 March 2011 20:53 (3 years ago) Permalink

Oh man, I totally scan for black and orange spines in the used CD bins now...

ilxor you've listened to one odd future album once (ilxor), Tuesday, 15 March 2011 20:54 (3 years ago) Permalink

Ashley Kahn's book on Impulse! is currently $2.94 at Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/House-That-Trane-Built-Impulse/dp/0393330710/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1300222272&sr=1-1

I won that book in a WKCR call-in. I think it was because I knew that Impulse had put out a Genesis record.

for real molars who ain't got no fillings (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 15 March 2011 21:18 (3 years ago) Permalink

It's interesting how much more jazz labels are "brands" than their rock counterpart. I totally associate the big jazz labels with certain approaches and sounds (especially because they tended to use the same studio and the same producers) and the label plays a big role in my decision to buy certain records.

for real molars who ain't got no fillings (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 15 March 2011 21:22 (3 years ago) Permalink

I had to google; had no idea "Trespass" was originally issued on Impulse!

Partyin', partyin', fun fun fun fun (Dan Peterson), Tuesday, 15 March 2011 21:30 (3 years ago) Permalink

xp - Lots of rock labels function as "brands" in the way you suggest though maybe not the biggest ones (which aren't really rock labels in any interesting sense).

oigwheoiqng4g (seandalai), Tuesday, 15 March 2011 21:34 (3 years ago) Permalink

3 weeks pass...

Alright folks, I'll admit my jazz listening has been on the back-burner lately. But I've amassed a few dozen albums (mostly touched on in this thread) and am working my way through them all. Lots of great stuff, most recently Cecil Taylor's Conquistador! -- unsure where this album has been all my life, as it's completely amazing.

Anyway, a fuck-ton of Sun Ra just appeared in the used bins this week at a local shop. Remind me again what's best, please. These are all priced $9 apiece or so, and I can't afford all of them... maybe three or so, for now.

I'm tempted to just go chronologically. Should I skip ahead? Are there more definitive reissues of any of these, or are the Evidence CD issues the best thing out there? Also, are any of these particularly tough to find and I should buy immediately, lest I never see them again?

Album Title (Label; Original Issue Year/Reissue Year)

Super-Sonic Jazz (Evidence; 1957/1992)
Jazz in Silhouette (Evidence; 1959/1992)
Angels and Demons at Play / The Nubians of Plutonia (Evidence; 1965/1993)
Fate in a Pleasant Mood / When Sun Comes Out (Evidence; 1965/1993)
Other Planes of There (Evidence; 1966/1992)
Cosmic Tones for Mental Therapy / Art Forms of Dimensions Tomorrow (Evidence; 1967/1992)
We Travel the Spaceways / Bad and Beautiful (Evidence; 1967/1992)
Nothing Is... (ESP-Disk; 1970/2005)
My Brother the Wind Volume II (Evidence; 1971/1992)
Hours After (Black Saint; 1990)
At the Village Vanguard (Rounder; 1993)

hey ilxor, thanks for contributing, glad you stopped by (ilxor), Thursday, 7 April 2011 16:43 (3 years ago) Permalink

Really tempted to just buy all the Evidence reissues. But my wallet would suffer.

hey ilxor, thanks for contributing, glad you stopped by (ilxor), Thursday, 7 April 2011 16:44 (3 years ago) Permalink

Definitely go for Jazz in Silhouette (best earlyish example of his big-band composition/arranging), Cosmic Tones For Mental Therapy (LOTS of fun with tape delay), and Other Planes Of There (the father of Massachusetts Governor Deval Patrick plays a devastating baritone solo on "Pleasure")

Funky Mustard (People It's Bad) (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Thursday, 7 April 2011 17:44 (3 years ago) Permalink

Thanks. I do love me some tape delay.

Are any of those Evidence discs just not very good, by Sun Ra standards, or should I get 'em all eventually?

ilxor, I know you sometimes feel like ilx revolves around you (ilxor), Thursday, 7 April 2011 17:53 (3 years ago) Permalink

been meaning to ask on this thread: I have some Monk stuff, know his standards, have seen Straight No Chaser, I "get" his style, etc. - but I am at a loss as to what are considered canonical albums by him. his catalog seems like a bit of jumble, with no real standout as THE peak or whatever. any thoughts?

in my world of loose geirs (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 7 April 2011 17:56 (3 years ago) Permalink

Are any of those Evidence discs just not very good, by Sun Ra standards, or should I get 'em all eventually?

All the Evidences are ace, but there is a little repetition/overlap. For instance, "Aicient Aiethiopia" on Silhouette is on one other Evidence, but I forget which one. My Brother The Wind II has lots of Moogness, but two of the best-ever Evidences are When Angels Speak Of Love (more tape delay, but this time with a screaming bass clarinet) and The Magic City. The latter in particular has some incredible large-group playing, pretty much the standard for all such work he'd do later.

Funky Mustard (People It's Bad) (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Thursday, 7 April 2011 18:02 (3 years ago) Permalink

Monk stuff you need:

Genius Of Modern Music Vols. 1 & 2, Brilliant Corners, Monk's Music, and 5 By Monk By 5 are all essential from the early years. Lots of people think his Columbia albums of the 1960s are less essential, but I disagree, so from that period you should hear Monk's Dream, Criss-Cross, Monk., It's Monk's Time, Underground and Straight No Chaser (note: not the movie soundtrack, the album itself).

Note: all of the above are studio recordings. Once you're done with that, dig through the live records - I recommend Misterioso, Thelonious In Action, Monk In Tokyo and Live At The Jazz Workshop.

that's not funny. (unperson), Thursday, 7 April 2011 18:04 (3 years ago) Permalink

Angels and Demons at Play / The Nubians of Plutonia (Evidence; 1965/1993)
Fate in a Pleasant Mood / When Sun Comes Out (Evidence; 1965/1993)
Cosmic Tones for Mental Therapy / Art Forms of Dimensions Tomorrow (Evidence; 1967/1992)
We Travel the Spaceways / Bad and Beautiful (Evidence; 1967/1992)
Nothing Is... (ESP-Disk; 1970/2005)

I have these on LP, they're all great

in my world of loose geirs (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 7 April 2011 18:05 (3 years ago) Permalink

My pick of those Sun Ra CDs would be:

Angels and Demons at Play / The Nubians of Plutonia (Evidence; 1965/1993)
Fate in a Pleasant Mood / When Sun Comes Out (Evidence; 1965/1993)
Other Planes of There (Evidence; 1966/1992)
Nothing Is... (ESP-Disk; 1970/2005) [Although keep in mind that this live recording was reissued recently in more complete form, so if you are paying $9 for this and find you like it, you may regret not holding out for the more recent College Tour Recordings or whatever the title of the more extensive version is.]

Others I like but not as much:

Super-Sonic Jazz (Evidence; 1957/1992)[These two are just a little too early/hard bop for me]
Jazz in Silhouette (Evidence; 1959/1992)
Cosmic Tones for Mental Therapy / Art Forms of Dimensions Tomorrow (Evidence; 1967/1992) [This is worth hearing, but I honestly haven't found myself going back to it much over the years]
My Brother the Wind Volume II (Evidence; 1971/1992) [Some cool stuff, but kind of a skimpy set overall]

I always forget what this sounds like, but I think it's non-essential:

We Travel the Spaceways / Bad and Beautiful (Evidence; 1967/1992)

Khalifa Hilter (_Rudipherous_), Thursday, 7 April 2011 18:49 (3 years ago) Permalink

And lol I had stopped paying attention to this thread but I clicked on it only to find you are talking Sun Ra again.

Khalifa Hilter (_Rudipherous_), Thursday, 7 April 2011 18:50 (3 years ago) Permalink

1 month passes...

I've been meaning to update this thread so badly but have been banned for the past month. Anyway, been playing the heck outta some jazz lately, mostly the following, all of which are absolutely killer and 100% essential listening:

Albert Ayler - New Grass
Ornette Coleman - Change of the Century
John Coltrane - Living Space
Joe Henderson - Joe Henderson in Japan
Pharoah Sanders - Thembi
Cecil Taylor - Conquistador!

ilxor, I know you sometimes feel like ilx revolves around you (ilxor), Sunday, 8 May 2011 01:58 (3 years ago) Permalink

surprised you think so highly of joe in japan!

BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Sunday, 8 May 2011 05:05 (3 years ago) Permalink

never heard that one, though i do dig some 70s henderson.

tylerw, Sunday, 8 May 2011 18:46 (3 years ago) Permalink

Yeah Joe in Japan is good in terms of energy but it's a little choppy at times.

bin caught laden (Hurting 2), Sunday, 8 May 2011 19:40 (3 years ago) Permalink

this is my fave 70s henderson (and not just because of the excellent cover)

tylerw, Sunday, 8 May 2011 19:43 (3 years ago) Permalink

might i suggest some anthony braxton?
very rarely does it "swing" but you get some super mathy mentalism ( at least on the early stuff before he started plying his "ghost trance music" ethos). also lots of large bass sarrusophones / contrabass clarinet / sax as large as your house business. he hasn't demonstrated "fire" to me very often but nearly always tickles the synapses to a state of delight & has comedy arsequake raspberry noises.
you can get "this time" & "anthony braxton" (or "B-X2NOI47A"as it's sort of otherwise known)on CD for pennies right now, & also "time zones" w/ richard teitelbaum which is him w/ teitelbaum's radiophonic electronics - amazing. "3 compositions of new jazz" is definitely also worth a shot, but after that you're taking your life into your own hands. "donna lee" does swing, but tends to be pricey. Also henry threadgill is worth a shot, particularly "too much sugar for a dime" & "making a move" which employ a 2xtuba bass section with widdly guitars. also "rag bush & all" which you can pick up cheapish on vinyl - kinda new orleans funeral band which to my ears sounds texturally like a zappa dance jam without the widdle. it's what i imagine "harmolodic" things should sound like.

iglu ferrignu, Monday, 9 May 2011 08:55 (3 years ago) Permalink

I've never run across Anthony Braxton in the shops here. I have his live collaboration with Wolf Eyes (which is basically a Wolf Eyes set featuring Braxton as a side player). I'll poke around as I shop for the ones you mentioned, though. Thanks!

HOOS: I haven't heard any other Henderson yet, maybe that's why In Japan is so great... I've nothing to compare it to!

ilxor running, w/ laptop in hand, checking ILX as he sprints (ilxor), Monday, 9 May 2011 12:33 (3 years ago) Permalink

I've been meaning to update this thread so badly but have been banned for the past mont

?! ilxor gets banned, but geir does not. the mind boggles.

no slouch of a snipster (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 9 May 2011 15:43 (3 years ago) Permalink

Whoops... self-banned, I should have clarified.

ilxor running, w/ laptop in hand, checking ILX as he sprints (ilxor), Monday, 9 May 2011 16:55 (3 years ago) Permalink

A little time away does me some good once in a while!

ilxor running, w/ laptop in hand, checking ILX as he sprints (ilxor), Monday, 9 May 2011 16:55 (3 years ago) Permalink

3 weeks pass...

Came across and bought the following this week:

Art Blakey and the Jazz Messengers - Moanin'
John Coltrane - Sun Ship
Weather Report - Sweetnighter
Weather Report - Heavy Weather

I have one other Blakey album that I like (from '59, forget the name), and I'm deep into Coltrane—haven't found a Coltrane album on Impulse that isn't somewhere between "pretty damn good" and "fucking fantastic."

Totally new to Weather Report. All I know is Shorter's in the band, more or less. Played the first couple tracks on Sweetnighter and it sounds like these guys are generally on a post-Bitches Brew trip, is that somewhat right or am I off the mark? And what are their best records?

i genuinely thought when i first joined that he was the admin (ilxor), Saturday, 4 June 2011 21:05 (3 years ago) Permalink

moanin deserves its classic status -- top 10 hard bop records of the 50s, not a bad note on it. weather report is more composed/much less improv-y than bitches brew (at least heavy weather is, haven't heard the other one). i dunno, beyond the first couple weather report records, i haven't gotten too much into them.

tylerw, Saturday, 4 June 2011 21:08 (3 years ago) Permalink

I like Heavy Weather okay, but Mysterious Traveller is my favorite of their mid-70s highly composed period. If you want to hear their weirdest shit, pick up the 2CD set Live in Tokyo.

that's not funny. (unperson), Saturday, 4 June 2011 23:33 (3 years ago) Permalink

top 10 hard bop records of the 50s, not a bad note on it.

What are the other nine...?

i genuinely thought when i first joined that he was the admin (ilxor), Sunday, 5 June 2011 02:32 (3 years ago) Permalink

2 months pass...

hmm i think that one links to an actual post
this one should link you to the thread
JAZZ IS LIKE HEROIN TO ME ! ! ! ~~~~ ILM POST-1945 JAZZ ALBUMS POLL - THE RESULTS COUNTDOWN ~~~~

Armand Schaubroeck Ratfucker, Monday, 29 August 2011 00:06 (2 years ago) Permalink

4 months pass...

Total # of jazz albums bought in 2011.... 130.

Here's the count:

26 - John Coltrane
22 - Miles Davis
10 - Sun Ra
7 - Thelonious Monk
6 - Albert Ayler
5 - Herbie Hancock, Charles Mingus
4 - Ornette Coleman, Pharoah Sanders
3 - Don Cherry, Alice Coltrane, Mats Gustafsson, Joe Henderson, Andrew Hill, Archie Shepp, Cecil Taylor
2 - Derek Bailey, Art Blakey, Peter Brötzmann, Eric Dolphy, Lee Morgan, Wayne Shorter
1 - Duke Ellington, Johnny Hartman, Freddie Hubbard, Bobby Hutcherson, Oliver Nelson, Sonny Sharrock, McCoy Tyner, Tony Williams

Pretty much picking up anything I see on Blue Note in the '60s at this point, and anything Blue Note or Impulse! related. But I wonder if I'm not pigeonholing myself.... I'm not listening or aiming much for pre '60s jazz as a general rule (with exceptions being Blakey and Monk and maybe a couple others) and most of this stuff falls into 60s or early 70s jazz, leaning toward free jazz (Sun Ra, Ayler, Cherry, Ornette) and spacey stuff (Pharoah, Alice, Hancock fusion era).

What else am I missing? I have a pretty good idea of my "tastes" at this point but still of course desire to (A) step outside the box to some degree, now that the box has formed, and (B) continue to find tons of really great albums within the box.

ilxor, Friday, 13 January 2012 05:10 (2 years ago) Permalink

did you get mccoy tyner's "enlightenment"?

BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Friday, 13 January 2012 06:40 (2 years ago) Permalink

If you dig both the 1960s Blue Note hard bop and free/avant garde, you should definitely check out Charles Mingus. He did both some cool avant garde stuff and groovy-as-hell bluesy numbers. Blues & Roots, Tijuana Moods, or Mingus Ah Um are good places to start, though pretty much all of the official albums he released between 1956 and 1963 are great.

Tuomas, Friday, 13 January 2012 07:35 (2 years ago) Permalink

Um, it says right there he bought five Mingus records

extremely lewd and incredibly crass (Hurting 2), Friday, 13 January 2012 12:41 (2 years ago) Permalink

A band I just discovered last year was David Murray's Octet. A great mix of hard-swinging bluesy bop and outbursts of free blowing. Their five albums have been reissued in a budget-priced box that's totally worth getting. Killer stuff.

誤訳侮辱, Friday, 13 January 2012 13:00 (2 years ago) Permalink

Ellery Eskelin - The Sun Died
Mihaly Dresch - Egyenes Zene
William Parker - Double Sunrise over Neptune
Jenny Scheinman - 12 Songs
Dinah Washington - Dinah Jams
Charlie Parker - Dial Masters
Max Roach - Deeds Not Words
Horace Silver - Song for my Father
Cannonball Adderley - In San Francisco

o. nate, Friday, 13 January 2012 19:34 (2 years ago) Permalink

Oh, and Henry Threadgill too: "Everybody's Mouth a Book" and "Up Popped the Two Lips" are both recommended.

o. nate, Friday, 13 January 2012 19:36 (2 years ago) Permalink

did you get mccoy tyner's "enlightenment"?

"The Real McCoy"—only one i've found so far.

Um, it says right there he bought five Mingus records

mingus ah um, mingus x5, mingus plays piano, oh yeah, black saint :)

ilxor, Sunday, 15 January 2012 04:03 (2 years ago) Permalink

thanks for the rec's o. nate!!

ilxor, Sunday, 15 January 2012 04:03 (2 years ago) Permalink

David Murray's Octet

yess Ming is a classic album

demolition with discretion (m coleman), Sunday, 15 January 2012 12:55 (2 years ago) Permalink

I like o. nate's eclectic approach

Mayne ... Or Astro-Mayne? (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 15 January 2012 14:32 (2 years ago) Permalink

just bought -

Art Blakey - Art Blakey's Jazz Messengers with Thelonious Monk
Grant Green - Idle Moments
Charles Mingus - Blues and Roots
Thelonious Monk - Monk.
Wayne Shorter - Night Dreamer

ilxor, Friday, 20 January 2012 06:10 (2 years ago) Permalink

2 months pass...

really getting into the Atavistic reissues on their Unheard Music Series, i've picked up all of the following recently:

Peter Brotzmann Sextet - Fuck de Boere
Globe Unity Orchestra - ??? (forget the name of this one)
Haazz & Company - Unlawful Noise
Mount Everest Trio - Waves from Albert Ayler
Luther Thomas & Human Arts Ensemble - Funky Donkey
Luther Thomas & Human Arts Ensemble - Banana

other recent stuff i've picked up:

Albert Ayler - Holy Ghost (box set... fucking amazing)
Ornette Coleman - Town Hall 1962
John Coltrane - Live in Seattle (double disc edition)
Art Blakey - A Night in Tunisia
Peter Brotzmann & Bill Laswell - Low Life

ilxor, Tuesday, 3 April 2012 05:08 (2 years ago) Permalink

1 year passes...

Can anyone please suggest contemporary ('90s - '00s), somewhat avant-garde & interesting modern jazz musicians-- in the vein of Mats Gustafsson and The Thing, Ken Vandermark / Vandermark 5, Colin Stetson, Fire! with Jim O'Rourke, the Peter Brötzmann Tentet, etc.?

Thanks...

ilxor, Monday, 10 June 2013 16:53 (1 year ago) Permalink

You might like Zs. It's not really jazz, but neither is Colin Stetson arguably.

i don't even have an internet (Hurting 2), Monday, 10 June 2013 18:54 (1 year ago) Permalink

You might also like Mostly Other People Do the Killing -- Kevin Shea on drums

i don't even have an internet (Hurting 2), Monday, 10 June 2013 18:56 (1 year ago) Permalink

oh, would also check out Ches Smith's projects -- Good for Cows (metal influence upright bass/drum duo) and These Arches (featuring the awesome Mary Halvorson on Guitar).

i don't even have an internet (Hurting 2), Monday, 10 June 2013 19:01 (1 year ago) Permalink

Oh and you kind of need to listen to William Parker/Hamid Drake if you don't already

i don't even have an internet (Hurting 2), Monday, 10 June 2013 19:06 (1 year ago) Permalink

Thanks much! i've already got Parker/Drake on my radar, heard Zs a bit but never really listened, but the others are new to me...

anyone else help out?

ilxor, Thursday, 13 June 2013 04:43 (1 year ago) Permalink

Vijay Iyer? David S. Ware?

They're not quite like the people you mentioned now but, based on your other descriptions of what you like ("stuff that moves and breathes and evolves slowly as it unfolds"), E. S. T. (Esbjorn Svensson Trio) and Steve Lehman Octet might appeal to you.

Do you know Bill Frisell, Marc Ribot, Nels Cline?

EveningStar (Sund4r), Thursday, 13 June 2013 04:51 (1 year ago) Permalink

See if you can find some Tim Posgate.

If you want something really slow and druggy, maybe try Tord Gustavsen.

EveningStar (Sund4r), Thursday, 13 June 2013 05:01 (1 year ago) Permalink

Evan Parker of course. His trio with Barry Guy and Paul Lytton is killer.

my father will guide me up the stairs to bed (anagram), Thursday, 13 June 2013 06:19 (1 year ago) Permalink

really enjoyed the performance by lllλ - seymour wright on sax, paul abbott on drums, Daichi Yoshikama on electronics - that i saw recently, dunno if they've got any recs out yet - super-crunchy free jazz pummelling

Ward Fowler, Thursday, 13 June 2013 06:27 (1 year ago) Permalink

Oh, and Evan Parker made a great trio recording with Eddie Prévost out of AMM and John Edwards, All Told.

my father will guide me up the stairs to bed (anagram), Thursday, 13 June 2013 07:31 (1 year ago) Permalink

I don't think I've ever heard Evan Parker's actual jazz recordings. I've only listened to his non-idiomatic improv stuff + the disc with Jah Wobble.

EveningStar (Sund4r), Thursday, 13 June 2013 20:45 (1 year ago) Permalink

Today, I'm pulling out this relatively unsung Swedish album from 2004 that I really enjoyed and it still holds up quite well (besides also reminding me of a time when I went to see live music): http://www.cduniverse.com/productinfo.asp?pid=7681280&style=music

They put on a great performance in Ottawa that year, described pretty well here: http://www.allaboutjazz.com/php/article.php?id=14138&pg=5#.Ub-ifhaJzZg

EveningStar (Sund4r), Tuesday, 18 June 2013 00:00 (1 year ago) Permalink

Parker/Drake in general deserve attention. Associated with that crowd, I would also pick out Matthew Shipp. sund4r mentioned E.S.T. I particularly liked Leucocyte.

I'm still a fan of 2003's Assif Tsahar/Cooper-Moore album America (but you might like those two in general).

Maybe a bit off topic, but I've been finding myself going back to Richard Gallo's Urdimbres y Maranas and thinking it's almost as good as I initially thought it was.

_Rudipherous_, Tuesday, 18 June 2013 00:21 (1 year ago) Permalink


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