Rolling 2011 thread where I buy and listen to jazz albums for the first time ever

So, I've never been a jazz listener. Always reflexively avoided the genre out of presumed dislike for traditional bop/swing styles, as well as jazz being such a huge, amorphous beast of a genre with so many iterations that it's seemed a challenge to ever approach.

The closest I've come to jazz thus far is owning a few common jazz albums from maybe 2002-04 era. I had vinyl copies of A Love Supreme, Sketches of Spain and a couple others I can't remember. Sold 'em off around 2004-05 because I never played them. Honestly, though, I don't think I really gave them a shot. Too busy listening to other genres.

There are at least two reasons I'm going to start listening to and exploring jazz in 2011.

1. I intend to slow down my buying habits in 2011, buy fewer new releases,, and listen to a fewer # of older records more often. Consider it a slow listening movement in general. I believe taking the time to play jazz albums all the way through, over and over, really dissecting them, will allow me a chance to step back from current releases and more pop-oriented genres, listen to music at my own pace, and probably help out my pocketbook.

2. I've found something to love in every genre I've explored thus far, and there's no reason to think jazz is any different. For example, I didn't pay any attention to metal in 2006-07. About three years ago I made a conscious effort to explore the genre. Three years later, I've found a LOT to like in the genre, some stuff I dislike as well, and generally feel like I have a good grasp on what makes a metal album "work" for me.

I'm hoping this can be a rolling "ilxor gets into jazz" thread where I buy jazz albums over the course of the year (maybe one or two a week, maybe one every two weeks, who knows?), listen to them a few times, post my thoughts and impressions, etc. I would LOVE to get recommendations from you guys based on what I'm enjoying (and not enjoying) -- hoping the seasoned ilx jazz listeners can point me in the right direction.

Keep in mind I'm approaching jazz from the standpoint of loving stuff like krautrock, psych rock, "weird" folky stuff that gets a bit drone-y at times. Stuff that moves and breathes and evolves slowly as it unfolds. Not sure if that means my ear will prefer certain jazz stuff, but as full disclosure, that's where I'm coming from.

If I were to set a goal for myself in 2011, I'd like to get a basic grasp on what I like and dislike in the jazz genre, figure out what I really enjoy most, and then follow those paths and keep exploring in the coming years as I feel compelled to do so.

Stuff I picked up tonight (never heard any of these before, will listen soon):

Miles Davis - Nefertiti
Miles Davis - On the Corner
Sun Ra - The Heliocentric Worlds of Sun Ra, Volume One

those are all fucking great records. godspeed.

Btw, one loose rule I'd like to set for myself is that I'm going to avoid reading press/reviews of various albums until I've listened to them and digested the sounds within a good bit. I have no clue what Nefertiti sounds like, whether it's considered a "good" Miles album, or how it compares to his other work, or that of his contemporaries.

Happy to take recommendations, as stated upthread, based on what I find myself liking, though.

On The Corner is my favorite jazz album (and one of my favorite albums, period) ever made. Good luck, ilxor.

So, I've played On the Corner once through, and I'd like to give it a couple more spins to process before I post my thoughts. But, I thought I'd share what my little one had to say (she's 8 yrs old, fwiw).

Upon hearing a few minutes of "Helen Butte" this morning: "This is a weird song -- it sounds like they're all going crazy all at once!"

Upon seeing the cover artwork: "And they all look like they're going crazy, too!"

My daughter (16 months old) goes bananas when she hears "Black Satin" -- tries to keep up with the handclaps, loses balance, falls over, smiles the whole time.

ornette coleman's 'ornette!' LP is fantastic and fun to listen to, it doesn't seem like a chore at all, which i find with a lot of jazz

and my favourite is carla bley and paul haines' 3LP 'escalator over the hill' -even outside of jazz its my favourite record. although it's probably not the best starting point at all. carla bley is awesome anyway.

also check out coleman hawkins and jelly roll morton.

That's adorable! xp

Thanks for the recommendations, I definitely have Ornette bookmarked in my mind as someone to get around to eventually; I've heard of Coleman Hawkins, will keep him in mind as well. Haven't heard of the others at all, but happy to pick something up if I run across an interesting looking record by any of them. Cheers!

based on yr likes u gotta get some pharoah sanders records, bro

I saw a Pharaoh Sanders record yesterday, thought about grabbing it... Black something? Hmmmmmm.

Black Unity, right.

i can recommend you stuff anytime ilxor. Pity you cant get spotify as its got an amazing selection of jazz inc most blue note stuff.

hell, you could spend all year just digging into Miles and his sidemen

some fave psychedelic jazz:

Miles Davis at Fillmore: Live at the Fillmore East
Pharoah Sanders - Karma (xpost destroyer)
Charles Mingus - The Black Saint and the Sinner Lady

yeah i can recommend "tauhid," "karma," and "thembi" at minimum but you'd probably dig anything from the 60s-early 70s of his.

Charles Mingus - The Black Saint and the Sinner Lady

yeah this is an absolute must

Excellent -- thanks everyone, this is great.

That Mingus record in particular is one I've heard fantastic things about. Will def pick up the first time I see it for a reasonable price.

i think you should just post your daughter's reviews of the jazz canon as they occur

Knowing what you like, Pharaoh Sanders is the way to go. V groovy. You might also want to try Alice Coltrane.

If you're looking for more noisy modern stuff, you might like The Thing or any project involving Mats Gustaffson (horn) or Paal Nilsson Love (drums) (not sure if I spelled those right but w/e)

Definitely will check out Coltranes (John and Alice both) in 2011.

i envy you listening to Karma for the first time

i think you should just post your daughter's reviews of the jazz canon as they occur

Will do. :)

I do like the Mats Gustaffson stuff I've heard, though my knowledge is limited to the collaborative records he did with Sonic Youth (that Patti Smith/Hidros 3 thing), Jim O'Rourke and Yoshimi.

Good luck ilxor! And don't look at bop as boring and trad, cos some of that stuff is total dynamite.

I have an Anthony Braxton collaborative album with Wolf Eyes and it's not really my thing (though as time goes on, I'm increasingly finding myself less into Wolf Eyes and other harshly noisy stuff, so that may be the issue).

And don't look at bop as boring and trad, cos some of that stuff is total dynamite.

I'll definitely poke around in all corners. Happy to take recommendations, of course.

The first jazz records I really got into:

Kenny Burrell and John Coltrane
Thelonious Monk - Monk's Music
Art Blakey - Caravan
Miles Davis - Cookin' (try to get a non-RVG edition if you can)
Wes Montgomery - The Incredible Jazz Guitar
Herbie Hancock - Takin' Off

All very much of a certain style/period, but all good. Not sure how I picked them, maybe just via record store listening stations? I feel like those are probably good starter jazz records since they appealed to me as a teenager mostly into rock and hip-hop (though also raised with some classical).

Blue Note in the 1960s is the greatest record label ever. Totally unfuckwithable!

(try to get a non-RVG edition if you can)

Why so?

Should I avoid most any RVG-issued stuff I come across, or just this album?

rvg reissues are generally avoided if possible ... one really obvious drawback to having an old man w/ shot ears remastering things is that he doesnt hear very well

lots of good suggestions here. esp pharoah sanders, john & alice coltrane, 70s miles, black saint and the sinner lady.

jazz things i've likes, as a non-jazz person:

charles mingus - mingus ah um and live at antibes '60
mingus & ellington - money jungle
art blakey - moanin'
sun ra - angels and demons at play
don cherry - brown rice

cool thread, I know nothing at all about (non-vocal) jazz but I have recently liked:

Ahmad Jamal At The Pershing, But Not For Me
Mary Lou Williams Black Christ of the Andes

will definitely check out some of the recommendations here (though in general whenever I try to get into jazz seriously I end up really bored...)

Re Pharoah Sanders: Don't start with Black Unity as it's one long song. Start with Tauhid or Jewels of Thought or Thembi, all of which are in the same style but have short, discrete pieces.

Re jazz for little kids: Kids like Thelonious Monk - without being at all disrespectful, the dude was a fucking genius and all, but the way he plays the piano is very Muppet-ish and kids will smile and dance around. They may also like Ornette Coleman's Atlantic recordings (The Shape of Jazz to Come, This is Our Music, and Change of the Century are the proper entry points) for similar reasons - a kind of cartoonish effervescence.

Keep in mind I'm approaching jazz from the standpoint of loving stuff like krautrock, psych rock, "weird" folky stuff that gets a bit drone-y at times. Stuff that moves and breathes and evolves slowly as it unfolds. Not sure if that means my ear will prefer certain jazz stuff, but as full disclosure, that's where I'm coming from.

With background like that, some jazz should appeal to you right away - Pharoah, Sun Ra, Strata East 'spiritual' stuff - but the main current through the 50s - 70s may elude you completely. There is something - or a lot of somethings - about Bop derived jazz that is just not translatable, if your taste was formed by rock/ pop.

If you start looking for what's not there - tunes, emotional expressiveness, rhythmic excitement, you'll hear instead twiddley-ness, lack of affect and stuff that's rhythmically much too complicated to dance to, and that taps the ride cymbal like a hyperactive toddler. It'll probably just annoy, as it does a lot of people.

There is nothing that says you have to like it of course: there's a lot of Jazz you probably will like, even if the Bop continuum leaves you cold, but. like it or not, it is that which all the other streams play off.

What to do?

Mingus or Monk might be better places to start than Miles or 'Trane - Mingus is bluesier, and Mingus Ah Um rocks, and Monk has tunes that aren't 'I Got Rhythm' with a whole bunch of extra chords. Eric Dolphy's 'Out To Lunch' and Oliver Nelson's 'Blues and the Abstract Truth' (Dolphy's in there too).

jazz forms the basis for my understanding of genre & criticism in a weird way -- the amg guide to jazz was probably the first music crit i eve read (thnx ron wynn!) and for a long time i had more 'contextual knowledge' of that genre than any other ... so its hard for me to recommend stuff cuz a lot of it is like, sun ra made sense to me in the context of having listened to lots of duke & basie & not really connecting that much w/ certain styles of free jazz, coltrane's later stuff makes more sense to me having known his stuff w/ miles, etc ... like each album you hear helps create a constellation that becomes more fleshed out over time ... the other thing is that seeing a great live performance will help u understand jazz x1000 than if u just listen to 'historical albums' or w/e

anyway, point is no one ever mentions fats navarro but his double-disc w/ tadd dameron is awesome, from the era just before jazz artists could record >3 min songs

Re Pharoah Sanders: Don't start with Black Unity as it's one long song. Start with Tauhid or Jewels of Thought or Thembi, all of which are in the same style but have short, discrete pieces.

it's funny that you say that. i'd say start with karma cuz it's (mostly) one long song, but it's such a fucking amazing song you won't even notice the lack of discretion.

Eric Dolphy's 'Out To Lunch' and Oliver Nelson's 'Blues and the Abstract Truth' (Dolphy's in there too).

yeah, this

im trying to 'get along better' w ilxors at the moment but suffice 2 say that in an older era i would rmde at ppl recommending 'rock-friendly' jazz records & saying 'on the corner' is the best jazz album ever

but whatever way gets u in i guess

^ how to ryde in like 40 words

The first jazz records I really got into:

Miles Davis - In A Silent Way
Lou Donaldson - Blues Walk
Tony Williams - Spring

Things I started out with:

Compilations of Charlie Parker & Dizzy Gillespie
John Coltrane - Coltrane
Miles Davis - Kind of Blue, Sketches of Spain, In A Silent Way
Pharoah Sanders - Tauhid
Sun Ra - Strange Celestial Road
Last Exit - Iron Path

Re Miles, I'd suggest In a Silent Way (xpost -- more ambient) and Jack Johnson (more rocking) as really accessible points of entry. Also, Herbie Hancock, Sextant and/or Crossings.

Lots of people very OTM on this thread!

'kind of blue' remains the one record i will never challop about. lol

perfect music basically

im trying to 'get along better' w ilxors at the moment but suffice 2 say that in an older era i would rmde at ppl recommending 'rock-friendly' jazz records & saying 'on the corner' is the best jazz album ever

but whatever way gets u in i guess

Well, okay, you mentioned Fats Navarro (duly noted!) -- what else would you recommend?

I mentioned that I'm coming from a background in psych/drone, krautrock, offbeat folk, etc. because I can see some parallels between those genres and what I *think* I may enjoy in jazz record (though I've not listened to hardly any jazz yet, so it's hard to say).

Anyway, I didn't mention '80s-'00s hip-hop/rap and pop music in general because I see less of a connection between jazz and those genres in general, but I like plenty of that stuff, too (you should know -- we turn up on the same threads a good bit). So, as someone who's as heavily invested in rap/hip-hop as you are, what jazz records (not necessarily "rock-influenced") do you fancy, and what's the appeal of the records you're into for someone who's also into rap music?

Btw, I owned Kind of Blue back in lolcollege days. Think I played it a couple times, saw it as a "traditional" jazz record but given I have basically zero knowledge of jazz theory/structure/etc. and wasn't invested in exploring the genre as a whole, I clearly need to hear it again with an open, more patient mind.

Btw, one loose rule I'd like to set for myself is that I'm going to avoid reading press/reviews of various albums until I've listened to them and digested the sounds within a good bit.

i don't know about this. you're bouncing to a huge & varied genre with no sense of context or history - i think that reading about the music would really aid in your enjoyment of some of these records. it can be overwhelming at first, but it'll all come together eventually (especially as you find musicians that speak to you and track down their other work, etc.).

I mentioned that I'm coming from a background in psych/drone, krautrock, offbeat folk, etc.

You can do what I did as a teenager and get excited when you look at the track listing and see song lengths over 8:00.

aside from obvious ish like rappers sampling jazz, the real tradition that rap gets from jazz is the density of the ideas/messaging coming across over a short period of time that is simultaneously open for anyone to follow, but works as kind of an insider language for ppl steeped in the music. a lot of folks dont 'get' the jazz canon cuz they're missing the way it plays w/ melody/rhythm, that there's a 'language' going on -- a lot of the best instrumentalists are communicating thru a combination/balance of referentialism (both overt & subtle) with originality. original melodies, original ideas. its the kind of thing u develop an ear for by spending lots of time paying attention to different instrumentalists & beginning to understand their personalities

deej 100% OTM re kind of blue.

see coltrane's giant steps, my favorite things and a love supreme for a few more "way too easy" classic that everybody owes themselves (not as effortlessly perfect as KOB, though).

plus yeah, take brad c.'s advice on early 70s herbie: mwandishi, crossings, thrust, headhunters.

thread is getting unweildy...

To clarify, I'm open to reading about the records I'm hearing, definitely. I think context is important. But as a first-time jazz listener, I'm curious to hear, say, On the Corner before reading a bunch of different critics' opinions and getting an impression of the album before I've heard it. Once I spin anything a couple times, I definitely plan to read up on its background and "importance" and context, etc. But I'd rather approach On the Corner for the first time without the background noise of "THIS IS MILES' [WHATEVER] PERIOD ALBUM AND IS VERY IMPORTANT FOR [XX] REASON AND THIS IS WHY IT IS GREAT" -- at least the first few times I hear something.

Think of it in the way lex reviews records -- trying to avoid reading other critics' comments before he forms his own impressions of any given record. I'd rather form my own opinions/tastes and get impressions without the critical consensus floating in the back of my head beforehand.

Does that make sense?

i think that for people with "rock ears", jazz with a lot of chord changes & harmonic complexity can be the toughest stuff to "hear" and get into. imo that's why the modal/drone-based/free stuff is most popular with non-jazz heads (also why kind of blue is so appealing, besides the amazing solos/vibe...it sounds like most people's idea of swinging modern jazz, with non-challenging changes).

the real tradition that rap gets from jazz is the density of the ideas/messaging coming across over a short period of time that is simultaneously open for anyone to follow, but works as kind of an insider language for ppl steeped in the music.

― *gets the power* (deej), Thursday, January 20, 2011 8:09 AM (1 minute ago) Bookmark

boom

thread is getting unweildy...

I love it. Rest assured I'll be compiling a huge list of recommendations from these posts and keeping them in mind as I explore in the coming months. Thanks everyone!

that totally makes sense, but it's a different case since lex is already very familiar with the vocabulary and aesthetics of the genre. but whatevs, just jump in head-first and sort it all out later.

im trying to 'get along better' w ilxors at the moment but suffice 2 say that in an older era i would rmde at ppl recommending 'rock-friendly' jazz records & saying 'on the corner' is the best jazz album ever

but whatever way gets u in i guess

― *gets the power* (deej), Thursday, January 20, 2011 10:54 AM Bookmark

Yeah. I mean tbh I'm not even sure what makes On The Corner a jazz record other than the names of the players on it; It sounds more like krautrock to me. Still a great record.

also there are already bunch of threads where people recommend all the classic records for first-time listeners, but i do look forward to your reactions coming at all this stuff for the first time.

Btw, I owned Kind of Blue back in lolcollege days. Think I played it a couple times, saw it as a "traditional" jazz record but given I have basically zero knowledge of jazz theory/structure/etc. and wasn't invested in exploring the genre as a whole, I clearly need to hear it again with an open, more patient mind.

Take it easy on yrself - I don't think you need to worry too much about theory etc to enjoy Kind of Blue! It's all about mood and feeling, same thing with a lot of the records that got people into jazz.

I mean tbh I'm not even sure what makes On The Corner a jazz record other than the names of the players on it; It sounds more like krautrock to me.

I will have more to say on this soon, but suffice to say from initial spins that I've gotten a similar impression.

If you like your hip-hop funny:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yl3XTX8JnQo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOa00xl-4hA&feature=related

I mean LOL okay but really, back to jazz, k?

john legend ftw

http://www.bsnpubs.com/columbia/columbia10/col2527.jpg

Just a heads up, I've compiled all the artist/album recommendations to date and I've got 45 distinct albums, along with eight artists being namedropped without attachments to specific albums. I'll go shopping in the coming weeks, lots of listening, and post thoughts on various albums as I familiarize myself with them. Really good stuff, guys -- thanks!

Based on what you've said in this thread, my 2 absolute recommendations would be these two albums:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_IyDZgXq8QH0/STUDuDqtkQI/AAAAAAAACTw/s0DpAw_CwZk/s1600/Joe+Henderson+feat.+Alice+Coltrane+-+the+Elements+-+front.jpg
Joe Henderson featuring Alice Coltrane - The Elements

http://www.differentfountains.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/herbie-hancock_sextant.jpg
Herbie Hancock - Sextant

Both are kinda droney, kinda psychedelic early 70s albums with interesting electronic experimentation. If you like Miles' stuff from this era, you can't really go wrong with these two. The Elements is more organic, with some hippie flavour, cool electric violin playing, and even a bit of spoken word poetry (but not so much it would distract you from the instrumentalists). The Sextant is more electronic and experimental, with synths that are totally out there (especially on the first tune). Both are five star albums featuring some excellent performers at the height of their powers.

Whoops, sorry, the Elements pic is huge.

Thanks v. much for the recommendations, those look great!

I had my first big "HOOOOLY SHIT" moment this morning with a jazz record. Honestly, wasn't expecting it to hit so hard, or so soon. I'm not gonna say what record it was yet (I'll get to that in time) but suffice to say I'm thrilled.

Another vote for Sextant - coming from a similar background to you, this was the first jazz album that made sense for me.

great thread, buncha albums mentioned so far that I need to hear too

Other favourite albums that haven't been mentioned yet:

Miles Davis - Bitches Brew
Albert Ayler - Live in Greenwich Village
Ornette Coleman - Chappaqua Suite
Rahsaan Roland Kirk - Natural Black Inventions: Root Strata
The Mike Westbrook Concert Band - Marching Song

Maybe not essential, but if you're into 70s spiritual electronic jazz I'm very fond of Roland P. Young - Isophonic Boogie Woogie.

I'm looking forward to keeping up with this thread; my jazz knowledge is kind of patchy even within my favourite eras/styles and I've never really listened to much John Coltrane, Bill Evans, Art Ensemble of Chicago or Cecil Taylor for example, even though what I've heard has been fantastic. Also, some musicians have just never clicked with me and I'd like to try again, e.g. Eric Dolphy, Anthony Braxton.

Nice -- appreciate the recommendations! I used to have Bitches Brew on vinyl in college days, I actually brought it over to my wife's place one night, early 2006, one of our first dates -- we played it while we cooked dinner together. I sold off all my vinyl at some point that year (only about 40-50 records, probably) since CDs were cheaper, easier to find, portable, etc., but always meant to buy Bitches Brew again at some point. So, I'll do that.

I've never been sold on vinyl as an ideal format, needless to say. Sounds like a CD with an array of pops, skips and static depending on the age/condition of the record, and often at a higher price tag given the vinyl resurgence in the '00s. That's another discussion of course...

Miles Davis - On the Corner (1972)

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51G5tDzTJ3L._SL500_AA300_.jpg

This is very dissimilar to what I think of as "jazz" (very broadly speaking) but doesn't come to me as a huge shock, given what I've heard anecdotally about this era's Miles Davis albums drawing from funk and similar touchstones. Before I heard this record, I could've be told this was an extended jam session from, say, Funkadelic or Can, and I wouldn't really bat an eye. Perhaps this record wouldn't be of interest to someone invested in more traditional/classic jazz styles, but it's served as a gentle (if not entirely representative) entry point to jazz given my background and interests in other genres.

On the Corner doesn't blow me away on first listen, but it sounds like a record that'll grow on me over time. There's a lot going on simultaneously in the mix (my daughter was OTM in saying "everyone's going crazy all at once") and my impression is that this record's all about the underlying groove, the repetitions that the rhythm section locks into immediately as the record starts, staying with these patterns for 10-15 minutes at a time, and accordingly letting Miles do his thing on the horn (I presume that's him!), which sounds scattershot and randomly deployed at times while the rhythm stays locked in, providing structure.

I've been able to get lost in this album not unlike a krautrock record (Can strikes me as a fair reference point). Once playing, the pieces don't drag or seem too long, instead tending to fly by quickly; yesterday I looked at the playing time thinking I was a couple minutes into "Helen Butte/Mr. Freedom X" and instead it was halfway over, double digit running time by then.

I take it this record is not a commonplace sound in the Miles catalogue, or within jazz in general, but I do enjoy this record a lot on initial spins. There's a groove to it all the way through, a swagger in its rhythmic step that keeps it engaging and lively for me, the novice jazz listener. I'm sure there's a method to the madness of Miles' horn playing that I'm not familiar with that I'll understand more fully at some point.

Rating: ✰✰✰✰ (out of possible 5 stars)

You should listen to "Rated X" by Miles Davis off Get Up With It (which I think was On the Corner outtakes). It's incredible. Unfortunately all the versions on Youtube are weird remix things.

^^^glad we're finally getting around to discussion of some specific albums

the jazz community really hated OTC in general, Stanley Crouch still hates it

On the Corner doesn't blow me away on first listen, but it sounds like a record that'll grow on me over time.

I don't wanna go into it to the degree I could (I wrote a whole book on '70s Miles and OTC had its own chapter), but yeah, this is definitely true. I've been listening to it for about 20 years at this point and I still feel like I hear something new every time. And yeah, it's unique in Davis's catalog - nothing else he ever did, in the '70s or at any other point, sounds anything like it. Most of his other funk stuff is more trancey and relaxed (in the studio, anyway; live, the band was basically instrumental Westbound-era Funkadelic gone even more metal, plus horns). None of it is as twitchy or as ridiculously studio-manipulated as On the Corner.

nowadays OTC is the canonical favorite of Miles' electric/funk period - which also includes Get Up With It, Big Fun, Agharta, Pangea, Tribute to Jack Johnson, In a Silent Way, and Bitches Brew (I may have even forgot one or two there). THere are some amazing youtube clips of the OTC era band (Pete Cosey!) floating around

unperson's right that OTC stands out from the other albums of the period though - it's more chopped up, more aggressive, without any of the real spacey/trancey stuff that would come to the fore on the other records

as ridiculously studio-manipulated as On the Corner

it's more chopped up

Sounds like it's time I read up a bit on how this album was actually created, then.

Duly noted re: "Rated X" and various notes on electric Miles, btw, I'll keep an eye out for that stuff. Thanks!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxSFSdcGPLM&feature=related

same basic era not an OTC track btw (this popped up on Agharta/Pangea/Dark Magus iirc?)

Sounds like it's time I read up a bit on how this album was actually created, then.

Teo Macero, master of editing

Can we have a quick discussion on fidelity/sound quality and jazz CD reissues?

So, full disclosure, I picked up the Columbia Jazz Masterpieces CD version of On the Corner (the one that says "Digitally Remastered From The Original Analog Masters" across the top, has a blue border around the edges) and while I enjoyed it, the trumpet was very low in the mix and the sound seemed a bit muddy or flat. Now, I'd seen the newer reissues floating around before, so swung by another record shop a couple days later and grabbed the Columbia/Legacy reissue -- suddenly the mix seemed to take on new dimensions, the horns were brought up in the mix and I could close my eyes and actually hear the band playing in front of me, so to speak. It was a very noticeable difference!

I've already been told to avoid RVG reissues (saw a couple of these this week, didn't buy...) but what other reissues and/or labels should I keep an eye out for, or avoid?

A couple examples -- I've seen Coltrane stuff on Atlantic (Giant Steps and My Favorite Things, maybe?) in an original CD issue as well as a Rhino reissue in a cardboard-looking sleeve. I've seen Pharaoh Sanders and Alice Coltrane discs on Impulse in jewel cases, and in digipaks (I take it the digipaks are remastered versions, not just repackaged). And of course there's the Miles CD reissues I mentioned a second ago.

What's the best rule of thumb to follow here?

Also seen Mingus and Monk original CD issues vs. reissues with bonus tracks. Seems like Columbia/Legacy does a good # of these?

And the Teo Macero insane chopping/editing thing is what makes "Rated X" so great. Definitely check it out.

omg there are so many reissues of Miles' material, sorting through them all is a total clusterfuck

best rule of thumb for me re: jazz recs is to buy high quality vinyl reissues

think it's relevant to emphasize that what makes Macero's editing so amazing a lot of the time is how seamless it is - the juxtaposition of different takes/different material being cut together in a way that is not immediately apparent/jarring to the listener. really pretty revolutionary

in general, the miles legacy CDs are better than the "jazz masterpieces" i think. not just soundwise, but packaging, liners, etc.

The "RVG Editions" of Blue Note titles were all done a few years ago, and sound really good to me. In recent years, though, Rudy Van Gelder (the original producer/engineer back in the 50s, and the source of the "RVG" title) has begun to suffer hearing loss, so his more recent remasters for the Prestige/Fantasy label are not as good as his earlier work. Fortunately, there's not actually that much you can do to or with what were originally two- or four-track recordings, so it's mostly just a matter of them being pushed through the louderizing machine, not making instruments disappear or anything.

The most recent batch of Miles Davis remasters (the ones in the clear plastic jewel cases as opposed to the 80s ones with the blue border, or the 90s ones with the brown border) have been done (or supervised) by Bob Belden, and they sound fantastic across the board. The 60s/70s stuff has been the most improved, to my ear. A lot of stuff pops out that was once buried in mud.

Hey unperson, what was that Miles book you wrote?

best rule of thumb for me re: jazz recs is to buy high quality vinyl reissues

I'm a CD guy for convenience reasons. I listen to music mainly in four settings -- in the car (CD only); at work (CD only); while I'm running for 1+ hours at a time, longer runs (iPod, imported to iTunes from CDs); and at home in the evenings (vinyl, CD, or from my laptop in iTunes). Only the last of these four settings allows me to play vinyl, so I've always figured I'm best off sticking to CDs given how music fits into my lifestyle.

Figure I'll stick with the Columbia/Legacy Miles reissues as they seem common to find as well as good quality, but I'd welcome any thoughts on other reissued labels or big artists' catalogs.

Thanks for yr thoughts, unperson, very helpful. I've seen the RVG issue and the Blue Note issue of, say, that Eric Dolphy disc that somebody mentioned upthread. Is there a rule of thumb as to which is best?

The book's called Running The Voodoo Down: The Electric Music of Miles Davis. Amazon link.

Re Dolphy, the 1999 remaster sounds great.

holy shit had no idea that was you. great book!

was always kinda annoyed how Miles' bios/autobios tended to really gloss over the period

Cheers on that book mention, I'll keep an eye out for that one.

Money Jungle was the record that made jazz make sense for me; but any number of Mingus/Miles/Monk/Sun Ra records can work for ears trained to art rock, and I cant imagine going wrong with any recommendations.

I'll stick in one more from the funk era, 'cause it serves as such a great bridge to earlier jazz: Ellington's Afro-Eurasain Eclipse. It's orchestral swing, but with some serious rhythmic craziness.

yeah unperson, that book is great

oh, unperson is phil!

~~~GRAND REVEAL~~~

one of the interesting things about Miles' electric period is how well it exemplifies that weird split in jazz over whether not swing was essential to the genre. Miles (along with a lot of other people already mentioned in this thread) identified improvisation - and specifically collective improvisation - as the essential foundation of his music, swing was just a sort of formalized style that eventually lost its attraction. but for other hardcore "purists" (like Crouch) pretty much anything that didn't swing could not be acceptably classified as "jazz".

wars over genre conventions are fascinating sometimes

The most recent batch of Miles Davis remasters (the ones in the clear plastic jewel cases as opposed to the 80s ones with the blue border, or the 90s ones with the brown border) have been done (or supervised) by Bob Belden, and they sound fantastic across the board.

agree completely. i recently replaced all the 70s miles with these (to the extent that i could find them), and they sound fantastic. speaking of "rated x", get up with it is one of my favorite records period, and i'm glad someone thought to mention it. if i understand correctly, it's basically a clean-up collection of unused tracks, but that gives it an amazing looseness and wtf experimental variety. think that on "rated x" miles just plays sun ra organ chords. anyway, here's a tube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOldheykk3Q

and now wanna read yr book, unperson. have heard good things about it.

Scribbled down the names of a few interesting-looking albums I saw yesterday. Any thoughts on these?

John Coltrane - Ascension
John Coltrane - Meditations
Miles Davis - Milestones
Miles Davis - Miles Smiles
Herbie Hancock - Man-Child
Thelonious Monk - Thelonious Monk w/ John Coltrane
Sun Ra - The Singles (double-CD set...)

all great

Ascension is my fave coltrane but it's not something you would jump straight into unless you really like free jazz.
Man-Child is Herbie's funkiest album and is absolutely wonderful in every way.

would get the carnegie hall monk/coltrane disc rather than Thelonious Monk w/ John Coltrane first

Ascension - not a good thing to listen to until you're deep into Coltrane. Meditations, on the other hand, is glorious. I've never been a big Sun Ra fan; the only stuff I like by him is from the early 70s, when he was big into synths. The 2CD set The Solar-Myth Approach is good, and there are some live bootlegs like Outer Space Employment Agency that are good, too.

Meditations is sometimes the greatest album ever by anyone, but it may take years for this to hit you.....it did me.

Milestones has the great modal title track, Miles Smiles is maybe his great cubist record (but possibly not a 'starter' record)

I don't own the Sun Ra but have heard most of it and it's great.

I don't have much to add re: those specific titles

I am a huge Sun Ra fan but I'm not sure what's on that Singles box. The very concept of a Sun Ra single is kinda hilarious as he's got to be one of the most non-single-oriented artists ever. but that doesn't mean there isn't good stuff on there.

Man-Child is more like an electro-funk record, great stuff

agree that Ascension is insane. a very bracing listen.

in fact I think I will listen to it now

Miles Davis - Miles Smiles

very posssibly my favorite miles album, and definitely my fave 2nd quintet one

I am a huge Sun Ra fan but I'm not sure what's on that Singles box.

Pretty sure this is the Sun Ra track listing:

http://www.amazon.com/Singles-Sun-Ra/dp/tracks/B0000014N7/ref=dp_tracks_all_1#disc_1

i agree w unperson, the RVG blue note editions sound perfectly fine for home listening.

i dunno what its like in the usa, but in europe so much classic jazz is now out of copyright - up to 1961 - you can pick up hundreds of stone classic albs for little more pennies. i esp like the sets issued by this bunch:

http://www.avidgroup.co.uk/acatalog/jazz.htm

Is there an essential series of Herbie Hancock CD reissues, or are these '90s issues with borders on the CD covers fine?

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51WDK9mrtLL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

again, the legacy reissues are probably the way to go

Ah okay, I hadn't seen Hancock reissues on Legacy yet. Thanks!

btw i haven't seen it mentioned in this thread, so i will mention it (because it completely blew my mind in high school):

john coltrane - live at birdland

also, doesn't seem to have been mentioned too much in this thread, but duke ellington duke ellington duke ellington

my favorite Duke is live at newport, but I admit I have only a cursory knowledge of his vast catalog. man, there was this one CD my coffee shop boss had in college that was some Duke Ellington live thing that was really heavily vibes-dominated (from the mid-60s iirc) but I can't recall the title and have never been able to find it... :(

also i still think that mingus mingus mingus mingus mingus is a great intro to mingus and jazz. a bunch of his more famous tunes, really well recorded and performed. radiohead sampled it, if that helps.

wouldn't recommend any of those as THE record to start with for miles, coltrane or herbie hancock, but second meditations, miles smiles and manchild anyway. all great & easily approachable. ascension is classic "difficult music.

I've never been a big Sun Ra fan; the only stuff I like by him is from the early 70s, when he was big into synths. The 2CD set The Solar-Myth Approach is good, and there are some live bootlegs like Outer Space Employment Agency that are good, too.

― that's not funny. (unperson), Friday, January 21, 2011 10:13 AM (8 minutes ago) Bookmark

ha. feel completely the opposite. i've been curious about the sun ra set ilxor mentions. he's not thought of as a singles artist, his early work having been massively overshadowed by the massive electric arkestra stuff from the late 60s through early 80s, but i honestly prefer mr. ra's (mystery's) early small group recordings, stuff from the 50s and early/mid 60s. during the 50s, he ran a chicago-based record company that mostly issues singles, producing and backing on cuts for local musicians, so he really was a singles artist, at least for a while. want to explore his work as producer and session musician a little more. over the past few years a bunch of this stuff has been gathered up and released, but i'm dragging my heels/wallet.

^ responding there to ilxor's list

would get the carnegie hall monk/coltrane disc rather than Thelonious Monk w/ John Coltrane first

Either, or both -- these are great albums and a good way into both artists' catalogs.

I am on a Sun Ra kick this week. I heard Jazz in Silhouette for the first time and loved it, same for Cosmic Tones for Mental Therapy, but in a blindfold test would never have known these were by the same guy. His work varies insanely in style and (unfortunately) recording quality. Lanquidity might be a good one for someone coming in with a funk/krautrock frame of reference.

I am a huge Sun Ra fan but I'm not sure what's on that Singles box. The very concept of a Sun Ra single is kinda hilarious as he's got to be one of the most non-single-oriented artists ever. but that doesn't mean there isn't good stuff on there.

― ex-heroin addict tricycle (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, January 21, 2011 12:16 PM (20 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

he actually released a bunch of 45s iirc. the singles box is a lot of weird doo wop & pop-oriented jazz.

tbh i say wait on sun ra. hes got a massive discography & a lot of it makes more sense in the context of having heard more jazz

Lanquidity might be a good one for someone coming in with a funk/krautrock frame of reference.

― Brad C., Friday, January 21, 2011 10:38 AM (33 seconds ago) Bookmark

OTM. great record, unique in his catalog (though disco 3000 is comparable, i guess). was saying i prefer the early recordings, and i do, but lanquidity is a knockout.

Sun Ra's vocal groups recordings are some of my favourite things he did (including some classic Christmas songs!); the Spaceship Lullaby comp on Atavistic has a great selection.

tbh i love when he covered batman & pink elephants on parade

Yeah the Batman album is fun - though I don't think he's on all the tracks?

he actually released a bunch of 45s iirc. the singles box is a lot of weird doo wop & pop-oriented jazz.

oh right - yeah I've seen the individual LP reissues of this stuff but haven't sprung for any. looks pretty nuts but I wonder about the sound quality

its pretty whatever. i basically never pull that record out

honestly i think the best place to start w/ sun ra for n00bs is the 'greatest hits: easy listening for intergalactic travel'

tbh i say wait on sun ra. hes got a massive discography & a lot of it makes more sense in the context of having heard more jazz

Will probably wait on the Sun Ra singles set because it's $18.99 and I can buy 4-5 other discs for that price. But good to know as a heads up. To someone who's familiar with the track listing, are those mostly early Sun Ra recordings/singles, then?

it gives a good overview of his career & suggests diff directions for u to follow. hes the rare exception to the albums >>> comps rules in jazz, imo, as an introduction goes

thats an xp to my own post

OTM. great record, unique in his catalog (though disco 3000 is comparable, i guess

oh I dunno I think it's of a piece with several others - On Jupiter, Strange Celestial Road, Sleeping Beauty. Lanquidity is probably the out and out funkiest though.

ilxor that singles set is almost entirely early stuff - I haven't heard it yet as I said but I doubt it's representative. Kinda hard to imagine anything that's really representative of the scope of his ouevre - even moreso than Miles, he really went all over the place

other good intro sun ra, fwiw:

space is the place (album w the blue cover, not the film soundtrack, which is iffy)
sound of joy

both excellent and very accessible, the former more psychedelic and expansive, the latter indicative of his early traditionalism

best song on lanquidity imo is 'thats how i feel'. other songs are good but that song is impeccable & beautiful

Miles Smiles is easy to recommend for "Footprints" alone.

Hours of great recommendations on this thread already, but can I just say --

Sonny Sharrock - Guitar
Duke Ellington - The Blanton-Webster Band
...and dig around a little in Louis Armstrong's early discography, Complete Hot Fives and Hot Sevens or Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man

I think it's of a piece with several others... Lanquidity is probably the out and out funkiest though.

yeah, i meant unique in terms of the funk/groove elements. also present to some degree on disco 3000, which isn't half as successful, overall.

sun ra's 'on jupiter' is actually way more danceable & straight-up (drunk) disco-y than disco 3000 ime

Fifteen Sun Ra recommendations to date... all over the place, just like his albums.

Sun Ra Angels and Demons at Play
Sun Ra Cosmic Tones for Mental Therapy
Sun Ra Disco 3000
Sun Ra Greatest Hits: Easy Listening for Intergalactic Travel
Sun Ra Jazz in Silhouette
Sun Ra Lanquidity
Sun Ra On Jupiter
Sun Ra Outer Space Employment Agency
Sun Ra The Singles
Sun Ra Sleeping Beauty
Sun Ra The Solar-Myth Approach
Sun Ra Sound of Joy
Sun Ra Space Is the Place
Sun Ra Spaceship Lullaby
Sun Ra Strange Celestial Road

Sun Ra Greatest Hits: Easy Listening for Intergalactic Travel

^^this one itself covers a bunch of his albums. def go for this 1st & figure out which 'era' you like the best

imho

no-ones mentioned heliocentric world of?

imo when someone asks for jazz recommendations & we spend half the thread going on about sun ra we are basically off topic

Nope, because I said in my original thread post:

Stuff I picked up tonight (never heard any of these before, will listen soon):

Miles Davis - Nefertiti
Miles Davis - On the Corner
Sun Ra - The Heliocentric Worlds of Sun Ra, Volume One

― ilxor, Wednesday, January 19, 2011 9:29 PM (2 days ago)

(xp to Algerian Goalkeeper there)

there's volume 2 though

i think they were the 1st sun ra i ever bought (on vinyl too)

sun ra's 'on jupiter' is actually way more danceable & straight-up (drunk) disco-y than disco 3000 ime

guess i oughtta track it down. *sigh* so much ra...

Speaking of Ra, I'm about to listen to "Strange Strings" for the first time...

imo when someone asks for jazz recommendations & we spend half the thread going on about sun ra we are basically off topic

fair enough. he's a cult unto himself, but i do love him. funny that we've had like 50 posts on sun ra and only a small handful on like duke ellington and louis armstrong. this is ILM, though, so no surprise.

I also mentioned upfront that I'm pretty well versed in kraut/space/psych rock and free/psych-folk idioms, so I think (hope!) many of the Sun Ra recommendations are being made with that kept in mind as well.

I'd figure one could draw lines between Sun Ra --> Parliament/Funkadelic --> Sonic Youth --> OutKast (or something similar) as well, which would be in line with my (and other ILX folks') listening habits and tastes.

Sun Ra --> Parliament/Funkadelic --> Sonic Youth --> OutKast (or something similar)

deej gave me shit for doing this on some other thread fwiw

but yeah would be happy if people went off about various Duke albums

been meaning to get Black and Tan Fantasy for awhile

Are those two different albums -- Black; Tan Fantasy -- or one album called Black and Tan Fantasy?

(Yes I realize I could've just Googled that but I'd obviously rather flaunt my ignorance.)

Keep in mind I'm approaching jazz from the standpoint of loving stuff like krautrock, psych rock, "weird" folky stuff that gets a bit drone-y at times.
enthusiastically second In A Silent Way! (also Filles de Kilimanjaro)
although Herbie Hancock's Sextant is a great and logical recommendation, the Headhunters record might be a better place to start (SO many people love this record upon first listen)
Weather Report's Mysterious Traveller (if only for "Cucumber Slumber")
Sun Ra's Languitity (mentioned already?)
Dave Douglas (interesting mix of tradition and experimental electronics on "Freak In"...)
Ornette's "Dancing in Your Head", "Of Human Feelings", and "Body Meta" (those last two will be tough to find, but worth the search)

Black & Tan Fantasy is one record.

If you're trying to invent a line from Sun Ra to Sonic Youth and non-jazz improvised music (beyond philosophical inspiration), Strange Strings might make sense as a waypoint:

After finishing a series of concerts of New York State colleges sponsored by ESP, Sun Ra decided to assemble a number of stringed instruments bought from curio shops and music stores. Ukuleles, Mandolins, Kotos, Koras, Chinese Lutes and 'Moon Guitars' were handed out to his reed and horn players in the belief that 'strings could touch people in a special way, different from other instruments [3].' The point was that the Arkestra didn't know how to play them - Sun Ra called it 'a study in ignorance.' [3]

'Next they prepared a number of homemade instruments, including a large piece of tempered sheet metal with an "X" chiseled on it. Then they miked the Sun Columns.

'Marshall Allen said that when they began to record the musicians asked Sun Ra what they should play, and he answered only that he would point to them when he wanted them to start. The result is an astonishing achievement, a musical event which seems independent of all other musical traditions and histories.... The piece is all texture, with no sense of tonality except where Art Jenkins sings through a metal megaphone with a tunnel voice. But to say that the instruments seem out of tune misses the point, since there is no "tune", and in any case the Arkestra did not know how to tune most of the instruments...'

It's surprisingly listenable.

Sun Ra --> Parliament/Funkadelic --> Sonic Youth --> OutKast (or something similar)

deej gave me shit for doing this on some other thread fwiw

― ex-heroin addict tricycle (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, January 21, 2011 1:28 PM (20 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i know there's a strain of listener who likes all of these things but Shakey Mo's Black People Should Get Off This Planet mix doesnt per se outline influence or significance to anyone but shakey mo & the niche of similar listeners

... aaaaaand let's cut the Sun Ra influences discussion there, before we derail this thread completely. :)

btw i haven't seen it mentioned in this thread, so i will mention it (because it completely blew my mind in high school):

john coltrane - live at birdland

― bows don't kill people, arrows do (Jordan), Friday, 21 January 2011 18:25 (1 hour ago)

Yeah same. This was another one of those less "essential" records I heard first and loved. Oh, btw, MY FAVORITE THINGS -- great, great jazz record for a jazz noob.

Similarly, I heard Milestones way before Kind of Blue and I still think I may like it better.

Birdland has that awesome sounding slightly out of tune piano.

yeah my favorite things (the track, then the whole album) was probably the jazz gateway drug for me. never ever gets old.

I mean I'm going to troll a little here, but given the choice between Sun Ra's entire discography and just My Favorite Things as the only music I have to listen to, I would unquestionably take the latter

ill cosign 'live at birdland,' anythin w/ afro blue x alabama is gonna be unstoppable

I also like Coltrane's Sound better than Giant Steps

Shakey Mo's Black People Should Get Off This Planet mix ...

― *gets the power* (deej), Friday, January 21, 2011 11:50 AM (11 minutes ago) Bookmark

ffs, dude

ha thats a play on an old shakey mo post

duh, okay. scanned more aggro than necessary.

(seriously I would totally flip my shit right now if there were some rap act saying "black people got to get off this fuckin planet and into space - and here's the music to go along with it")

― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, April 12, 2006 5:58 PM (4 years ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i think significance (or maybe i should say relevance) changes depending on context and audience. like it's reasonable here to tailor recommendations and discussion to the musical world of the admittedly krautrockin ilxor. like more sun ra & coltrane, less art tatum.

I would totally flip my shit right now if there were some rap act saying "black people got to get off this fuckin planet and into space - and here's the music to go along with it"

plus shut the fuck up, me, cuz that's obviously what sun ra was saying, and just as obviously what you were referring to. i can't think sometimes...

Skimming through here: just chip in that giving Ascension a go as a first record by Coltrane is completely fine as you pretty much know he did lots of different things. Just as Ra making singles isn't at all strange.

Good stuff. I've noted that it's probably not the best entry point to Coltrane, but may give it a whirl anyway if it's the first record of his I happen to stumble onto for a fair price. And anyway, I don't plan to hear any one record, say Ascenion by Coltrane, and flip the "off" switch on exploring his other stuff if I don't enjoy it. I'm in this for the long haul, and it goes without saying that most of the musicians mentioned here did lots of different albums that may sound vastly different from one another.

I agree Duke Ellington has been under-represented on the thread so far. Armstrong too, but that's a pretty big leap back in the time machine for somebody starting from krautrock and psych.

I was trying to remember how I got from Bitches Brew (the first jazz album I bought) to '30s, '40s, and '50s jazz. I think maybe Miles' records with Gil Evans, Sketches of Spain in particular, made it easier for me to appreciate Ellington's big band sound. I got the Ken Burns Ellington compilation, wore that out for while, then started getting more Ellington. After that I was able to get more out of Armstrong, Parker, Monk, Coltrane, etc. than I had before.

Did you like Bitches Brew at first? I remember coming at it from jazz, I found it hard to listen to. There may also have been something flat about the remaster I had. Then one night I was driving around with a friend and he put on one of those Complete Bitches Brew Sessions discs, and the whole thing totally opened up for me. The non-BB material kind of helped me enjoy the BB stuff more. But the whole thing also sounded more open and had more sonic depth than I remembered.

Duke Ellington and Johnny Hodges - side by side
get this for the sweets edison solo on 'stompy jones'

Re Miles, I'd suggest In a Silent Way (xpost -- more ambient) and Jack Johnson (more rocking) as really accessible points of entry.

100% cosign.

Did you like Bitches Brew at first?

I didn't. I bought it and Kind of Blue on cassette, in close proximity, when I was about 14-15, and hated BB. Didn't "get it" until years later.

i finally found 'tribute to jack johnson' on vinyl and omg mclaughlin's dirty dirty guitar!!!!

also davis was late to the recording and mclaughlin and the bassist were just jamming and about two minutes in, he shows up and just throws down an amazing solo. the best part is that you can totally 'hear' davis entering the studio by what the musicians are playing. a++++ would recommend

Did you like Bitches Brew at first?

I liked it okay but not as much as I'd hoped. It wasn't quite what I expected -- I was probably looking for something more like Jack Johnson or Agharta.

the ellington/mingus/roach trio record might be a good entryway to duke if yr not ready for big band stuff.

big band like 30's big band or big band like Jazz Composer's Orchestra, Globe Unity, etc.?

sorry - missed the word "duke" in your post, Tyler

but the thing is, the phrase "if yr not ready for big band stuff" just strikes me as weird, because that stuff is what pop music used to be, what dance music used to be, and now we have software and samples to replace all those instruments, but i have trouble understanding how ellington's big band music would be something that's hard to get into, that you have to get ready in some way to appreciate.

Keep in mind I'm approaching jazz from the standpoint of loving stuff like krautrock, psych rock, "weird" folky stuff that gets a bit drone-y at times.

this makes it really easy to understand how big band wouldnt be immediate...

yeah, but presumably ilxor has heard pop music and seen old movies?

man i just spotted this thread

hey dude

this thread shall be rad

i know you've already got a list of recs a mile long but if i can just toss some pennies in the hat

-Giant Steps: this is the first jazz record that really got me by the throat, and in retrospect I think it's because the music was so fast & complex that it kind of melted all the harmonic information into gibberish and I just heard these bright luminous noises like dude was blowing sparks out of his horn

-Meditations: Easily my favorite jazz record. iirc I'm in the minority for even noticing it, but McCoy Tyner's piano playing on this record totally opened up piano jazz for me.

-Complete Art Tatum: See Giant Steps

I see Mats & The Thing have already been mentioned, I just wanted to shout out "Fire!," a collabo Mats was involved with that is suuuuuuuuper krautrocky at points. One of my fave records of the last few years, have a feeling it's right up yr alley.

so this is sorta a ridiculous deal if you don't have this: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000FBHCQO/ref=s9_simh_gw_p15_d1_i4?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-5&pf_rd_r=116E9TAM4WERR3FHKPMN&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=470939291&pf_rd_i=507846
$3.99 for two CDs of monk/coltrane

man i just spotted this thread

hey dude

this thread shall be rad

― HOOS the master?? STEEN NUFF (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Saturday, January 22, 2011 2:16 AM (20 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

yeah, man, i second that emotion.

Cheers everyone, I took a breather from this thread but I've been listening to lots of jazz, including several recommendations in this thread that I picked up yesterday (in exchange for, oh, $50 less in my wallet...).

HOOS, I picked up Giant Steps used for $4 -- definitely will play soon. I saw Meditations, I think the CD issue on Impulse but in a jewel case. Is there a new, remastered version I should watch for instead? I've seen a lot of Impulse stuff in digipaks...

Seriously thinking about picking up that $3.99 Amazon recommendation, I have an order to place there today regardless. Anyone else heard it?

Btw, the description of Coltrane blowing sparks out of his horn is the BEST possible recommendation ever. Sounds incredible!

the monk/coltrane 2 cd is a great deal - only real issue is that it's one of those things where multiple takes are sequenced together, which always kinda bugs me. but you could get it and sequence a playlist yourself so that it followed this album: http://www.amazon.com/Monks-Music-Thelonious-Monk/dp/B000000Y52/ref=pd_sim_m_35, which is great.

Well thanks for telling me after I placed the order. ;)

j/k

what tylerw said

you'd want to refer to the sequence on this album too: http://www.amazon.com/Thelonious-Monk-John-Coltrane/dp/B0038M61B4/ref=pd_sim_m_59

hard to beat getting both plus alternative takes for $3.99

ilxor, you need this. now!:

http://www.amazon.com/Journey-In-Satchidananda/dp/B000W06V6A/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1295733577&sr=8-1

I'm definitely keeping an eye out for Alice. Saw a used one the other day... not Journey, though; let me look up the name.

Ptah the El Daoud -- think it was on Impulse.

That one's great too-- as are Universal Consciousness & World Galaxy.

THat's a great one too plus awesome sleeve

ha xp

my recommendations:

in a silent way
get up with it
creator has a master plan
pangaea/agartha
let my children hear music

"he loved him madly" is an incredible piece of music

yeah so fucking good...crazily intense.

^^^yeah, "He Loved Him Madly" (from Get Up with It) is one of the saddest pieces of recorded music evah! and it slithers and morphs for more than 30 minutes, too. was a big influence on ambient Eno as well, apparently.

xps haw!

"Rated X" is pretty intense too. nearly blew the head off me when i first heard it.

xxxpost re: Ascension. like or loathe, it's the greatest example of a classic 1960's Free Jazz session if ever there was one. Don Cherry - complete communion being my #2 pick over Ornette - Free Jazz.

count me in the small group that doesn't really get the bitches brew and on the corner popularity (except on the corner has that killer cover; and i guess they were both well marketed in the day). Especially if you compare those to the godheadlikeness that are Jack Johnson and Agharta

that whole album is crazy eclectic, too; "inconsistent" in the best way possible.

xp

Might be interesting to set up a Listening Room where ILXors can play a bunch of these recommendations for ilxor so he can take a taste before he purchases.

i like big fun a lot as well though it is a bit inconsistent, listened to that on a bus through spain in roasting hot weather at night before, amazing.

count me in the small group that doesn't really get the bitches brew and on the corner popularity

yeah they still havent clicked with me either. maybe some day....

Might be interesting to set up a Listening Room where ILXors can play a bunch of these recommendations for ilxor so he can take a taste before he purchases.

Listening Room wasn't working for me when I tried it a week or so ago.

Anyway, I prefer the idea of diving headlong into albums I've never heard and committing myself to them. Jazz doesn't strike me as a "hear one song once, know if you'll enjoy the album long-term" type of genre.

my recommendations:

.....
let my children hear music

Good one.

i love adagio ma non troppo from that record. is such a big hearted song...

other problem w/ the listening room is that jazz tracks can be really damn long

Yeah, Listening Room works best when people are bouncing different things off each other, it's a different thing to concentrating on a single album.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Y6MNQP9BL.jpg

http://qblog.ws/images/uploads/tmgmm-cover2.jpg

http://selectism.com/columns/benjaminferencz/files/2009/10/miles-davis-workin-with-the-miles-davis-quintet.jpg

http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm276/El-Flippo/Thumbs%202/SteaminWithTheMilesDavisQuintet1956front.jpg

http://merlinsnewrags.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/miles_davis-relaxin_.jpg

http://img.maniadb.com/images/album/122/122889_1_f.jpg

Sonny Rollins & Dexter Gordon were my gateway drugs to saxophone addiction. both project enveloping warmth & audible sense of humor

i've no idea about ilxor's preferences, but all six of those records are absolutely essential stuff m coleman.
the bonus tracks on the Monk reissues are like the best bonus tracks ever...
and on the Rollins tip Clifford Brown & Max Roach (with Sonny) is another one i'd highly recommend. CB is the greatest trumpet player ever(imho)

has anyone recommended coltrane's blue train yet?

http://www.amiright.com/album-covers/images/album-John-Coltrane-Blue-Train.jpg

following what worked for a columnist, this was one of the first pieces of music i listed to after 09.11.01. the clean horns sound so strong, optimistic, and full-of-life.

Sun Ra - The Heliocentric Worlds of Sun Ra, Volume One

I would not have recommended this as a starting point. I prefer Other Planes of There, which seems to be working around some of the same material or ideas, but isn't so modern classical stiff about it. Anyway, there are lots of worse entry points.

Oh, I missed the Sun Ra overkill that already happened. Never mind.

Just read the Sun Ra thread where everyone disagrees with everyone else about what the best albums are.

Quick question: Am I the only one who prefers Thelonious Monk's Columbia albums to everything that came before? I know the compositions were frequently rehashes of stuff he'd written and/or recorded in the 1950s and even the '40s, but there's something about the organicness of the band, especially his rapport with saxophonist Charlie Rouse, that really gives me more pure pleasure than any of his earlier recordings, even the ones with "all-star" personnel like the stuff with Coltrane or Rollins.

yeah i kinda feel like the columbia stuff gets a bad rap -- some people really seem to hate Rouse for some reason. But there are some great records during that era, no doubt about it, and it's nice to hear Monk in a really good studio, too -- the early blue note/riverside recordings are obviously classic, but I like the higher fi sound of the columbia stuff, his piano just sounds magical on those records.

i've always dug his Prestige work best myself. can't really say why; that stuff seemed to capture everything about his work i like best as he moved into the "album" era, i guess. plus, having Sonny Rollins and Max Roach play on his shit certainly didn't hurt.

I know everyone always talks about Herbie Hancock's 70s albums, but please dont dismiss his excellent 60s hard bop albums. Infact dont dismiss hard bop at all. There's shitloads of awesome hard bop/ hard bop-avant garde albums on Blue Note in the 60s that you got to hear.

re: monk's columbia stuff, this one is classic
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51JMY4JvVgL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

^ my fave of his

& yeah, my favorite herbie stuff is probably his 60s blue note records. love the electric records, too, but ...

There's shitloads of awesome hard bop/ hard bop-avant garde albums on Blue Note in the 60s that you got to hear.

This is absolutely true. Blue Note was pretty much unimpeachable from about '62-66.

that era is really interesting for blue note -- a nice mix of the classic hard bop sound, but edging towards more "out" ideas. check wayne shorter's records from that period.

its what I like about it. classic hard bop then HB with some avant garde then avant garde albums with the hard bop influence which equals so many wonderful albums.

Ken Vandermark needs to get mentioned in this thread. Heir to (and combiner/synthesizer of) 60s hard bop and the European free improv crowd (Parker, Brotzmann, Bennink, Kowald, etc).

oh yesh!! love KV (Target or Flag would be my entry point rec. there)

those Columbia monk releases are all wonderful, but Johnny Griffin, who replaced Trane (and plays on Misterio and a couple other Monk/Riverside releases) is the most underrated sax player i know of

xpost

yeah i kinda feel like the columbia stuff gets a bad rap -- some people really seem to hate Rouse for some reason. But there are some great records during that era, no doubt about it, and it's nice to hear Monk in a really good studio, too -- the early blue note/riverside recordings are obviously classic, but I like the higher fi sound of the columbia stuff, his piano just sounds magical on those records.

― tylerw, Sunday, 23 January 2011 21:11 (11 minutes ago)

The Columbia stuff with Frankie Dunlop on drums is great (Monk's Dream, etc.). The stuff where Ben Riley takes over is a little bit lackluster imo.

ust read the Sun Ra thread where everyone disagrees with everyone else about what the best albums are.

― _Rudipherous_, Sunday, January 23, 2011 3:28 PM Bookmark

It's hard to agree on which one of a bunch of not very impressive albums riding primarily on mystique is the best.

ilxor make sure you check out the likes of Lee Morgan,Andrew Hill,Donald Byrd, Wayne Shorter,Lou Donaldson, McCoy Tyner,Hank Mobley, Grant Green, Cecil Taylor, Bobby Hutcherson, Big John Patton, Don Wilkerson, Jimmy Smith and that's all i can think of off the top of my head.

oh and Eric Dolphy.
And please do check out Archie Shepp. FIRE MUSIC!!

ilxor make sure you check out the likes of Lee Morgan,Andrew Hill,Donald Byrd, Wayne Shorter,Lou Donaldson, McCoy Tyner,Hank Mobley, Grant Green, Cecil Taylor, Bobby Hutcherson, Big John Patton, Don Wilkerson, Jimmy Smith and that's all i can think of off the top of my head.

― Algerian Goalkeeper, Sunday, January 23, 2011 4:27 PM Bookmark

Seconded.

It's hard to agree on which one of a bunch of not very impressive albums riding primarily on mystique is the best.

One thing deej forgot to account for is the fact that so many jazz heads fail to appreciate Sun Ra.

without taking genre names into account, i was a big Ra fan 15 years ago, before i knew much Ornette or Monk. tried Ra again the other day just to confirm and i think he's kind of phony and he definitely bores me these days

i'd look to pre-60s stuff if i were you, ilxor.

I like some Sun_Ra ok, e.g. Solar Myth Approach, but I don't really see him as a way into jazz.

^^^

and dance bands too. fletcher henderson, tommy dorsey, benny goodman, artie shaw, and glenn miller of course.

benny goodman's sextet, with charlie christian on guitar.

Love this thread, it's had me digging out some favourites over the weekend and it's been great. My getting into jazz coincided with my first proper job after university back in about 2004 - for a couple of years every HMV/Virgin sale seemed to have a big selection of Columbia Legacy/Blue Note CDs so I went through phases of picking up anything that looked or sounded interesting. Mingus Ah Um was the first album that really clicked with me I think and lots of other things I'd recommend to ilxor have been mentioned already... My knowledge is still fairly sketchy. I'd add Art Blakey's Indestructible and Lee Morgan's The Sidewinder as good Blue Note ones to try though. I've perhaps neglected jazz recently but I'm definitely taking some notes from here - also on Friday night I read through some of the older jazz threads and wound up listening to Let My Children Hear Music for the first time... Wow, what an album that is.

You have Spotify? shitloads of stuff on there

Yeah, you're not wrong there. Spotify's my main source for jazz at the moment.

You have Spotify? shitloads of stuff on there

be careful out there.

just finished listening to kenny g/louis armstrong on 'what a wonderful world'.

it wasn't wonderful.

serves you right for listening to kenny g

srsly though ilxor, i'd also recommend post bop stuff like art pepper, lee konitz.

dave brubeck.

it was you that said spotify was good for jazz, algerian goalkeeper...

as a side note, what does the g in kenny g stand for?

Great?

gettofuck

i was thinking 'god'

you're a weird dude, hermann g neuname xp

cos if you were called kenny god you probably wouldn't want to draw attention to your surname.

well whenever i hear kenny g i think get tae fuck and turn it off

xp

ilxor you should have a read at http://www.ilxor.com/ILX/ThreadSelectedControllerServlet?boardid=41&threadid=79981

one specific recommendation for ilxor, knowing your taste:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_vw6OpGtF1Ps/TA4Maea5dII/AAAAAAAAAMQ/srtVGML4YPk/s320/Africanasia.jpg
Also features much of the Art Ensemble of Chicago, whose work both solo and as a group is probably worth exploring for you.

max roach - percussion bitter sweet

huh never even heard of Claude Delcloo, much less that particular record. but I am a huge fan of Actuel's vinyl reissues of that era of stuff (AEC, Shepp, etc.)

Kenny G = Kenny Gorelick.

You can see why he went with just "G"

Hey, I think I heard that Claude Decloo on the radio once and missed what it was, and I've been trying to figure it out since then. It's pretty great.

in 2009/2010 i picked up more jazz than anything else.

predominantly this involved the miles davis legacy reissues, and a lot of RVG reissues as they were cheap-n-cheerful in my local fopp.
while i have read the comments elsewhere re the RVG reissues the simple fact of the matter is that they are readily available, and for newcomers like me, are an easy way-in to discovering what area of jazz suits my requirements the best.
as for recommendations ?

well, i fell hard for the in a silent way > on the corner era of davis, which basically provides an album for every mood.
not ventured too much into the pre IASW stuff other than a kind of blue of course.

but my faves seems to all hang off donald byrd; from his groovy funk of royal flush and the cat walk, to the experimental but sublime beauty of a new perspective, before he delved into the more fusion styled electric byrd, these albums are never far from the stereo.

and to think i had decided that in 2011 i was going to try and get back into the modern world, as this stuff can become very addictive once you tune in, so threads like this can become very dangerous !

true!

mark u need to hear the second quintet stiff just prior to in a silent way. Best. Music. Ever

i actually forgot, i have gone back from IASW : filles de .. & miles in the sky

clearly i need to spend more time with them.

I wrote about tenor saxophonist Ike Quebec on BurningAmbulance.com today. He was a 1940s guy who made a comeback, recording five albums' worth of material in 1961 and 1962, then died of cancer. All his albums are worth hearing, as is a two-CD compilation of non-album jukebox singles. Here's the link.

ILXOR just buy http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Columbia-Album-Collection/dp/B00305GXWG/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1295875874&sr=8-1

that's not a bad deal, actually... 52 albums, $300, something like $5 and change per album O_O

i got it last year for xmas (2009 xmas) £70 i think the price was.

it's £126 in the UK now http://www.play.com/Music/CD/4-/11876982/The-Complete-Columbia-Album-Collection/Product.html?ptsl=1&ob=Price&fb=0&;searchstring=miles+davis+complete&searchtype=allproducts&searchsource=0&urlrefer=search

or £394 from Amazon LOL

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Complete-Columbia-Album-Collection-Miles/dp/B00305GXWG/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1295880815&sr=8-3

Think I'll go with the last option there. ;)

don't those all come in cardboard sleeves that come apart ?
a local shop had a bunch of them in a cut-out promo drawer and just picking them up to look @ condition of the sleeve/cd resulted in the sleeve coming apart where the glue had been applied.

They fixed that problem I think - but yeah, check out all the one-star reviews at http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B002EOF7U8/ref=s9_simh_gw_p15_d0_i2

I'm happy just picking up all the Miles albums one by one (they're cheap used...) and taking my time, I think. Shelled out $3 for Water Babies over the weekend, which I don't think anyone's recommended thus far. Looks like mid '70s Miles. Thoughts?

My initial thought was "Whoa -- that cover art would NOT fly in 2011..."

I love Water Babies (it's actually a 60s album). It's not as canonical, but it's got good examples of both the 60s style and the transition into the more rock-influenced stuff.

The last track (Dual Mr. Anthony Tillman Williams Process) is one of my favorite Miles things.

Yeah, Water Babies is totally overlooked 'cause it was recorded in '67/'68 but not released until '76, when Miles was in his hermit phase.

not released until '76

Ah, so that explains why I thought it was mid '70s -- checked the copyright date on the CD.

yeah water babies is actually my fave 60s era record

Listening to Weather Report's Live in Tokyo (2CD version) for the first time today. If, like me, you think of Weather Report as the makers of shitty, "funky" prog-fuzak, you really need to hear this, Skronky and rockin' - it's like Miles circa 1970 (Live-Evil, not Jack Johnson), minus Miles, basically.

If, like me, you think of Weather Report as the makers of shitty, "funky" prog-fuzak, you really need to hear this

Lol - ok, i'll take the bait.

i do kinda love the phrase "prog-fuzak"

would also really stump for weather report capo joe zawinul's self-titled debut (i think?) album....recommended if you like "in a silent way" by miles

jaco sux tho

to the experimental but sublime beauty of a new perspective

omg this album. so awesome

that would be a way better title

Guys I will post my impressions of some more jazz albums soon. I've heard about a half-dozen things I've enjoyed once apiece, really need to sit down and sink my teeth into one of them in more depth... there's so much to hear!

yeah this thread has kinda gone nuts since yr last post afaik

YOU NEED TO LISTEN TO IT ALL NOW
[but srsly, don't get burnt out on it, take it slow, feel the vibrations]

Ornette Coleman – The Shape of Jazz to Come (1959)

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/516itKL5IwL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

I’ve picked up a dozen or so jazz albums in the last week or so, most of them recommendations from this thread, and given many of them a cursory listen (with varying degrees of intrigue, which I’ll get to in time). This album by Ornette Coleman immediately bowled me over, though, and gets better with each spin.

I’ve heard various asides about this album’s significance over the year, mainly that it’s thought of as a “blueprint” for free jazz, or a groundbreaking record of sorts, due to the lack of melodic structure underneath the sax and trumpet parts (hope I’m somewhat on target with that...), and I can hear the appeal. Ornette’s playing doesn’t feel tied down to anything because I’m not hearing anything that could possibly hold it back. The bass and drum parts provide a sense of rhythm, but nothing melodic to instruct Ornette what to play, which scales to follow, or where to take each of these pieces.

One of the biggest things that stands out about this album is the interplay between Ornette’s sax and Don Cherry’s trumpet playing (had to check out the liners to get his name). I hear them often playing essentially the same parts but not quite in sync, one of them coming onto a note, or series of notes, just a split-second before the other, which I find wonderfully pleasing and exciting. Occasionally, one of them takes center stage. I find the playing extremely varied in mood as well: for example, the frantic and spazzy runs on “Eventually” followed by the nearly 10 minutes of peace on “Peace” -- no better title for that tune, surely!

I’m guessing due to the overlapping trumpet and sax parts that The Shape of Jazz to Come was written before it was played, but I do get an overwhelming sense of improvisation, exploration and freedom in Ornette’s playing here. It doesn’t sound like he’s reading sheet music while playing, just closing his eyes and then playing what comes to him in the moment.

Whatever the case, I absolutely love this album. Love it love it love it. More, please!

Rating: ✰✰✰✰✰

ilxor, in most jazz there is a written "head" or melody that the melodic instruments play together usually at the beginning and end of a song, and then a set of chord changes they improvise over. Ornette's move was to keep that "head" but to remove the chord changes. So you're right that at the beginning and end they're playing a written part, but after that they're improvising and in a looser/freer way than on almost all jazz records up to that point.

That makes sense, kinda... at some point I'll clearly need to read up and understand music and jazz theory a bit more.

lol, tbh, you could read ornette's explanations of these things for a decade and not really decode what he's talking about. His interviews are fun to read, but they are pretty out there.

like this:
The key represents the scale that you’re shooting but it doesn’t represent the quality of how long it takes to get rid of the notes of the key that you’re in. For some reason there’s at least, I would say, five notes that is always free of some key, and because of that it kind of slows down what we call improvising because, the improvising is the name of the key but the notes are different than the key. For instance what I’m trying to say about they key of the notes. When you’re shooting, when you’re playing within the rules, it’s not the same thing as when you’re playing the sound. Because the sound is mostly dominated by the name of the key that you’re in. But, if you’re in the key of C, you know, there’s not a C sharp and there’s not a B flat. So all of those things have something to do with how you transform, what I would say has something to do with the tonic. And transposing things from a dominant seventh to a fourth or a fifth or a sixth like that, that doesn’t have anything to do with nothing but your brain. Everything else has something to do with your eyes and your ears.
that's actually one of the more straightforward quotes

hurting otm

Ornette is one of my favorite interview subjects ever

Anyone seen the Derrida interviews Coleman thing?

http://itself.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/theotherslanguage.pdf

I had never really gotten into Ornette until a few years ago (got to see him play at the Masonic Hall too, which was amazing) but yeah in a weird way I was taken aback by how straightforward a lot of the early stuff is. I didn't immediately understand why this was seen as such a big break - it certainly doesn't sound as "free" as, say, Ascension or Free Jazz. a lot of it is really quite restrained and pretty. and he DOES almost invariably stick to the format of head-improvised section-head, whereas originally I was expecting stuff that didn't even have that kind of rudimentary structure.

very inventive though, have come to love this stuff. it really grabs yr attention.

no! my head sorta hurts just seeing the words "Derrida interviews Coleman" xpost

my favorite part of ornette's thing is the melodies

Been looking up some of you guys' recommendations. Looks like this one may be a bit hard to come across on CD...

World Galaxy by Alice Coltrane (Audio CD - 2004) - Import

4 new from $89.97
2 used from $171.40

O_O

Just counted... I have 160 distinct album recommendations from this thread. Mind = blown. Thanks everyone!!

Now, excuse me while I post a PayPal "Donate to ilxor's jazz buying fund" button. ;)

mm I can upload World Galaxy somewhere for you

my favorite part of ornette's thing is the melodies

― bows don't kill people, arrows do (Jordan), Friday, January 28, 2011 1:52 PM Bookmark

Mine too. (1) they are really pretty and (2) they contain all these little 'jokes' about jazz imo. I mean his music is very, very funny if you've listened to enough jazz, because he kind of punctures cliches.

The simplest way to explain Ornette (and it's super-reductive but basically true) is that he improvises based on the melody, not based on the chords. So his solos often sound like a little kid singing a song to himself that he's making up on the spot. (I think this is a major reason why little kids tend to like Ornette's music.)

yeah, that makes sense to me. (btw coleman even got his 10 year old to be his drummer at some point in the 60s/70s)
http://www.orbitrecords.com/product/IMG_1127_edited.jpg

Denardo is still drumming for his dad (and managing him, now, too).

One of the biggest things that stands out about this album is the interplay between Ornette’s sax and Don Cherry’s trumpet playing (had to check out the liners to get his name)

Yeah definitely! And though you're not short of recommendations, most of Don Cherry's own records are excellent in their own right if you see any of them going cheap. Mu is awesome, so is Brown Rice.

xpost yeah! does he/has he ever made recordings with other people? some of the early stuff he's on is pretty ehhh, but he's definitely a killer drummer. he might be my favorite part of that recent sound grammar record.

My favorite Don Cherry record is Eternal Rhythm, with a bunch of European players and Sonny Sharrock. Awesome.

Haven't heard that one, thanks for the tip!

i have to say, i don't really care for 80s skronky ornette.

one goal of mine for this year is to check out the keith jarrett quartet with dewey redman, charlie haden, and paul motian. i've been meaning to get to that stuff for ages.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ls1ddrT7HPc

^ ilxor, I swear to god, this will 100% totally appeal to your Can-loving self

also there's a ton of contemporary jazz i like that i think would go down well on rock ears (the bad plus, the inbetweens), but if i was going to toss only one more recommendation on to the pile it would be something by the brian blade fellowship. probably "season of changes". such a great mix of serious playing with great melody, folk influences, etc.

NickB, I just started the video you linked but I'd be tempted to buy it for the artwork, regardless.

yes Denardo is still his drummer and he's amazing

seconding Mu and Brown Rice, definitely. Ed Blackwell! unfuckwithable

Brown Rice was one of those things I heard and was like "people call this a JAZZ record?"

also, here's a repository of totally amazing interviews & jazz writing by ethan iverson (pianist for the bad plus):

http://dothemath.typepad.com/dtm/contents.html

Been looking up some of you guys' recommendations. Looks like this one may be a bit hard to come across on CD...

World Galaxy by Alice Coltrane (Audio CD - 2004) - Import

4 new from $89.97
2 used from $171.40

O_O

World Galaxy has only been reissued on CD in Japan, hence the prize. Anyway, in my opinion you should get Alice's "Universal Consciousness", which is much cheaper. "Universal Consciousness" has a similar sound to "World Galaxy", but it's better. And it's more "jazz" too, if jazz means improvisation - World Galaxy mostly has just pre-written strings. It's not a bad album (the version of "A Love Supreme" on it is pretty great), but not worth the high prize you have to pay for it.

Aaaaand (surprise!) the music's fantastic, too.

xp to NickB

i'm sure a quick google search would reveal a galaxy of download options. xpost

Tumoas is right that Universal Consciousness is the better of the two (and I prefer Journey in Satchidananda to both)

journey's definitely the one to start with

Soliciting opinions on a few others I've seen in used bins lately:

Derek Bailey - Music and Dance (Is this even jazz? I believe it's on Fahey's Revenant label...)
Peter Brotzmann - Machine Gun
Andrew Hill - Point of Departure
Thelonious Monk - Straight, No Chaser
Sun Ra - The Futuristic Sounds of Sun Ra
Cecil Taylor - Jazz Advance

Machine Gun is a MUST HAVE.

What's it like?

It is one of the sacred texts of European Free Improv. You might not like it, but it will teach you about that whole scene.

eter Brotzmann - Machine Gun
Andrew Hill - Point of Departure
Thelonious Monk - Straight, No Chaser

go buy NOW

machine gun will blow your head off

would definitely rep for Machine Gun - it's awesome and "highly influential" on a bunch of music that came later that fused jazz with punk and noise.

Derek Bailey would loudly insist that his music was not jazz.

I wrote about all eight of the Jarrett quartet's Impulse! albums on my blog in '09; you can read that stuff here:

http://runningthevoodoodown.blogspot.com/search?q=keith+jarrett

xp - derek bailey is dead

Also saw:

Peter Brotzmann & Bill Laswell - Low Life

Derek Bailey would loudly insist that his music was not jazz.

― hey boys, suppers on me, our video just went bacterial (Hurting 2), Friday, January 28, 2011 3:09 PM (27 seconds ago)

xp - derek bailey is dead

― sarahel, Friday, January 28, 2011 3:10 PM (3 seconds ago)

Quietly, then.

I know that's why I said "would" and "was"

(xp)

machine gun will blow your head off
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/99/John_Zorn-Naked_City_%28album_cover%29.jpg

Machine Gun: Noisy, harsh, brief sketches of themes, but mostly eight guys blowing at the same time until the veins stand out on their necks. I think it's beautiful and cathartic, myself.

xp - Low Life is excellent, found that one for $1, chaching!

I think Low Life was $4.99, I may wait to see if it comes around at a lower price...

xp - well, it would be more accurate to say that he insisted - past tense - and that would get us into EFI vs. EAI history

though there's a funny story involving the Derek Bailey memorial concert that John Zorn organized.

I wrote about all eight of the Jarrett quartet's Impulse! albums on my blog in '09; you can read that stuff here:

awesome!

especially since the '73 - '90 essay on Do the Math (who are huge champions of those records) basically says "they're all great"

i have a friend who calls them "the double plus bad"

yeah those are cool essays on the impulse years -- i'm pretty unschooled when it comes to that period (and a lot of jarrett actually).

emil.y thanks for the link to the derrida/ornette text, think i'm going to enjoy reading that.

i have a friend who calls them "the double plus bad"

good story

The points of convergence and divergence between free jazz and free improv are, like, the most interesting thing in all of music to me. Bailey -- definitely not jazz. But he occasionally played on jazz records. (Tony Oxley's The Baptised Traveller, highly recommended.)

xp - oh, that's not the funny story -- the story was:

Zorn had kinda a long-standing beef w/Henry Kaiser (about what, I don't know, but Zorn is known for holding grudges), but because Bailey and HK were really close, it would've looked really bad if Zorn didn't invite Henry to play the memorial concert. The format for the concert, I believe, was a series of short duos. So, Zorn grudgingly contacts Henry, and asks him who he wanted to play a duo with, and HK says, gleefully, "I want to play with you, John!"

The Bad Plus are alright. I like their drummer a lot. I find something a little unimaginative about their arrangements, but I guess they're a decent way to come to jazz aesthetics/approach starting from rock.

eh, it depends on what type of rock you are starting from

but yeah, Hurting, that's largely my friend's problem with them: unimaginative and "safe"

Should I look into John Zorn? (Is he generally considered "jazz," or more just totally fucked-up experimental madness or whatever he typically does?)

John Zorn is extremely prolific.

Well, yes, that much I know.

He's done a lot of jazz albums and a lot of albums that aren't jazz.

but yeah, Hurting, that's largely my friend's problem with them: unimaginative and "safe"

that is dumb

why is it dumb, Jordan? It's the same problem that countless people have with Vampire Weekend. The Bad Plus are kinda the Vampire Weekend of jazz.

Like when I saw them live I remember doing "Everybody Wants to Rule the World" and at first it just kind of sounded like a transcription of the original for jazz instruments, and then when they would throw in little dissonances and off-kilter things they seemed like very predictable off-kilter things.

remember THEM doing

that comparison doesn't make sense to me, like, at all?

to me the bad plus do a pretty amazing job of combining a lot of things that could have been a mess - melody vs atonality, really precise rhythmic stuff vs free playing, respect for jazz vs a really sincere embrace of rock and pop. imo people get hung up on a couple of their "covers", and don't really listen to what they're doing.

also dave king is one of the very best & most singular drummers of his generation, along with chris dave and brian blade.

I think Mehldau does most of what they do much better.

you mean the trio stuff?

I mean pretty much everything where he has done rock covers including with the trio.

First off, I don't dislike The Bad Plus or Vampire Weekend -- pleasant, but not really my thing.

well, they are educated, nice, non-black boys playing traditionally African-American music, for one. They are critically acclaimed by the educated white boy East Coast tastemakers. Their music fuses different elements, as you mentioned. It is well-crafted. It is tidy. But it takes music that was originally associated with a certain ecstatic quality, and make it kinda tidy and mannered. And there's a lot of race-based baggage/connotations in this that many contemporary white guys playing free jazz have to negotiate/come to terms with. And maybe we don't want to go there in this thread.

takes music that was originally associated with a certain ecstatic quality, and make it kinda tidy and mannered

ok sorry no

that's not gonna fly

well, they are educated, nice, non-black boys playing traditionally African-American music, for one.

fuck off with that shit

I mean you want to talk about racial baggage you just chalked yourself up a few extra check-in fees.

(xpost)

i mean i don't even know where to start

excuse me? I mean, if you want to ignore the racial aspects of jazz, go ahead, but they exist, and I'm sure you know, it's a long-standing issue.

Back to old-school jazz (let's not derail too far, please) -- anyone heard Jazz Advance, that Cecil Taylor album I posted abt upthread? Is it any good, or are there other records of his that I should look to?

Right, the racial aspects, e.g white people deciding that jazz is about "a certain ecstatic quality" that black people bring to the music and that stiff boring white people fail to get.

i'm not saying that I agree with that argument, I'm just pointing out that that argument exists.

God forbid someone bring a "tidy, mannered" quality to the music of, say, Duke Ellington.

but we're not talking about Duke Ellington -- Jordan was talking about how The Bad Plus incorporates improv and free jazz.

Please can we move on from this derail, guys?

(Or else take this convo somewhere else: Racial issues in music, perhaps?)

Re: Cecil Taylor, I don't know much of his stuff but Conquistador! is one of my favourite jazz records of all time. It is very much what I like about jazz, though, and your mileage might vary - not here will ye find any of that cool smooth tuneful shit.

I'm just trying to explain why some people, including my friend, dislike The Bad Plus. And it's kinda related to why some people dislike Vampire Weekend.

There is a lot of great playing on Zorn's jazz records, but I wouldn't necessarily put them ahead of any of the recommendations already on the thread. If you want one disc by the original Masada quartet, I'd say Hei, because "Hobah" is mindblowing to me. I'd put higher stock in a couple other 2CD sets that were recorded early on after Zorn wrote the first book of Masada pieces, when all the NY downtown players were just seeing the material for the first time and bringing everything they had to it. Bar Kokhba: Masada Chamber Ensembles is a hodgepodge of different lineups (string trio, piano trio, clarinet/organ, trumpet/clarinet/organ/drums, etc). The Circle Maker has one disc of string trio and one disc of the same trio plus drums, percussion and amazing guitar by Marc Ribot.

I don't care for VW and may check out The Bad Plus at some point. Doesn't strike me as a priority for now. Regardless, I'd just prefer we not derail into 100+ posts on racial issues in jazz. Another thread, perhaps...

xp to sarahel

And yes, I realize the irony of me asking other ILXors not to derail threads (my speciality, oftentimes).

Right, the racial aspects, e.g white people deciding that jazz is about "a certain ecstatic quality" that black people bring to the music and that stiff boring white people fail to get.

― hey boys, suppers on me, our video just went bacterial (Hurting 2), Friday, January 28, 2011 2:08 PM (6 minutes ago)

Exactly -- it's definitely problematic.

Zorn's film music is pretty good. The Cobra stuff is also worth listening to.

Zorn strikes me as perhaps needing a whole separate investigation. Pretty unwieldy catalog. May check him out at some point...

your friend's ideas about race & aesthetics here are all twisted up imo. i'd love to stay and argue that the bad plus are neither co-opting nor watering down whatever your friend's idea of what free jazz should be, but i'm out for the weekend.

xp

this used to be a good thread

Zorn strikes me as perhaps needing a whole separate investigation. Pretty unwieldy catalog. May check him out at some point...

yes, definitely worthy of investigation, but not necessarily as part of your jazz research. He's a lot like Frank Zappa -- a composer above all, arranging the works for different ensembles depending on their needs. (In FZ's case, he arranged his work mostly for midsize rock band because it paid the bills and gave him total freedom.) Speaking of FZ, have his jazz albums been mentioned here? There are three classics, four if you count Ponty's King Kong.

my friend is a white guy who came up listening to punk rock, then got into free jazz and improv and played with European EFI dudes as well as a lot of Bay Area African-American old school free jazz dudes. He does have some skewed ideas about jazz, but basically, he thinks The Bad Plus suck, and he's applying arguments to The Bad Plus that denigrate them and what they do, primarily because he thinks they suck. This seems very common on ILX.

And please do check out Archie Shepp. FIRE MUSIC!!
Yes! And "Four for Trane"

Seeing that you were moved by Ornette, don't forget to search out his later, electric sounds: Of Human Feelings, Body Meta, and Dancing In Your Head...(if you want to get ridiculous about the early stuff, Beauty Is A Rare Thing has all you need)

Some might cringe at the concept, but this is amazing:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/B000AMYJK0/ref=dp_image_0?ie=UTF8&n=5174&s=music

http://jazzbluesclub.com/2009/12/21/#

fair enough. have to admit i don't have much respect for free jazz dudes who haven't spent some time playing other kinds of jazz, paying dues.

Body Meta is great. And if Ornette rocks your world, it might be worth your while to check out Albert Ayler.

(fer christsakes)

James Carter/Cyrus Chestnut/Ali Jackson/Reginald Veal - Gold Sounds (tribute to Pavement)

xp Jordan: he played whatever Glenn Spearman asked him to play, because it was Glenn Spearman's band, and dude was a legend.

fwiw all the great jazz musicians i know in my generation (most of whom are primarily involved in non-jazz music these days) have a fraught relationship with jazz. but even the guys who are really dedicated to free music have done their homework and can play anything if necessary.

Even Derek Bailey put in his time on session work and dance bands and whatnot.

http://sickmouthy.wordpress.com/2011/01/16/top-ten-jazz-albums

I suspect my taste in jazz doesn't intersect massively with many other people on ILM. But we have lots if crossover in other areas so maybe you'll get some mileage from this.

Also, Courtney Pine's Modern Day Jazz Stories and e.s.t's Tuesday Wonderland. Love both of those deeply.

So...what "Jazz" albums are totally right now, like a live album, especially for someone who never really cared about jazz and wants to make up for lost time? I mean, it's Friday night, no better time for some live jazz!

Black Saint and Sinner Lady is a great album.

My dad's a big Cannonball Adderley fan.

Freak In by Dave Douglas, too.

The Impressed with Giles Peterson compilations are awesome collections of 60s British stuff. Michael Garrick etc. Awesome.

So...what "Jazz" albums are totally right now, like a live album, especially for someone who never really cared about jazz and wants to make up for lost time? I mean, it's Friday night, no better time for some live jazz!

maybe just watch chris dave trio videos on youtube?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T39ZaFT1kA0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJ5eduwP-4U

Hmm, in terms of contemporary stuff, there are a lot of good players right now constantly walking the in/out line as I think I've talked about with Jordan. Some names I recommend checking out: Tony Malaby's Tamarindo, Drew Gress, Yeah No, stuff involving Chris Lightcap on bass and Gerald Cleaver on drums (including Chris Lightcap's records as a leader), Chad Taylor's Active Ingredients. Actually you might dig the Chicago Underground Trio and Quartet records since they have some noisy/proggy/spacey electronic elements that sort of bleed into other Chicago stuff a little (they share members with Isotope 217/Tortoise)

Actually I'd really recommend starting off with anything that has both William Parker and Hamid Drake on upright bass and drum kit, respectively (though I love the stuff where they play other instruments). They're definitely a key force in the last few decades of jazz and the direction it has taken, and relatively accessible because they're so rhythm-heavy.

Any of the Brad Mehldau Trio at the Vanugard recordings are great, intense and heady listens.

And if Ornette rocks your world, it might be worth your while to check out Albert Ayler.

Good call! I actually saw the Ayler box set on Revenant a few months ago and reaaaaally wanted to pick it up (it was still $80 or so, and I passed). That was one of the aching non-purchases I almost made that's made me feel it's time to try my hand with jazz.

That, and everyone posting on Facebook about their favorite jazz albums... ^_^

Saw an Ayler album tonight: New Grass -- how is it?

Haven't heard New Grass, but the Allmusic writeup intrigues me:

Possibly the most notorious Albert Ayler release and universally misunderstood (i.e., hated) by fans and critics alike. When New Grass was released in 1968 it received a hostile outcry of "sell-out."

The idea of Ayler aiming his uncompromising full-body style into commercial territory suggests a glorious incongruity. Doesn't sound like the best introduction to the man though. I'll rep for Live at the Village Vanguard forever, though I guess Spiritual Unity is his recognised classic album.

Don't go for New Grass as an introduction to Ayler. To hear his early style at its best, get Spiritual Unity. To hear his late style at its best, get Live on the Riviera or Fondation Maeght Nights.

^this^
and when/if you get around to new grass or just in general have interest in the free dudes going pop, Sharrock's 'Paradise' is a super unique listen

I just listened to Paradise last week (because of the Sharrock thread), thought it was excellent. Though I'll keep returning to Black Woman, I guess.

both so good

DAMN! Thanks for those Chris Dave links. Awesome stuff.

this thread kinda rules. never heard of Paradise (will keep an eye out), but Guitar is desrving of a tonna Sonny love. (the best solo guitar record ever?)
never heard new grass or Live at the Village Vanguard either, but spiritual unity, after a dozen of so listens, hasn't ever really "hit" me, unlike Ornette, who never stops.
just throwing my (asshat) preference out there

This thread is great by the way - I've always had a flirting relationship with jazz but in the past couple of years I've been getting more and more into it, and this is helping me fill in lots of gaps.

Also thank you to the free NW library exchange program that has tons of jazz records that just show up at my office within a couple days if I request them - this week I got Journey to Satchidananda, The Black Saint and the Sinner Lady, and Miles' On The Corner - I've had the complete sessions for that one but not the original record. Also picked up Herbie Hancock's Sextant from Amazon.

I hope this isn't too much of a derail, but where do I go looking for some Chris Dave stuff. Love this video too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NLuTeHJarY

On some Robert Glasper stuff maybe?

Just chiming in to say Machine Gun never really did it for me, much as I love so much of what came after it--Zorn, Mats G, Evan Parker (<--- this fucking guy), etc, seem so much more dynamic & textured to me.

That said, I love Brotzmann's Tentet stuff. Even if it is the square Brotzmann to like.

oh yeah, Evan Parker -- Topography of the Lungs

I used to like Brötzmann a lot; these days, not so much. I mostly like him in loud electric contexts like with Last Exit or Full Blast, but some of the late '60s stuff is still pretty hot. Nipples and More Nipples are good and worth checking out.

Happy to take opinions on these records. I don't think I've seen any mentioned in this thread to date (naturally, I'll stop by the record store later this week and pick up the best of the lot):

Derek Bailey - Ballads
Peter Brotzmann - Born Broke
Peter Brotzmann - The Brain of the Dog in Section
Peter Brotzmann - Medicina
Ornette Coleman - The Art of the Improvisers
Ornette Coleman - Sound Grammar
Ornette Coleman - Tomorrow Is the Question
John Coltrane - Ole Coltrane
John Coltrane - Stellar Regions
John Coltrane & Don Cherry - The Avant-Garde
Miles Davis - Black Beauty
Miles Davis - 'Round about Midnight
Joe Henderson - Big Band (the title of this one makes me instinctively recoil in terror...)
Charles Mingus - Oh Yeah
Cecil Taylor - Trance

I also saw generic collections, titled The Impulse Years (or The Impulse Story, I forget?), for John Coltrane, Alice Coltrane and Archie Shepp -- are those worth picking up at some point?

I hope this isn't too much of a derail, but where do I go looking for some Chris Dave stuff.

imo his recordings don't represent how completely ill he is, yet (although he has a solo record coming out soon), but i would check these out:

robert glasper, "double booked" (still haven't dug into this one yet but one of my friends is into it)

kenny garrett, "happy people"

maxwell, "blacksummer's night" (chris dave sounds great on the whole record, lets loose on "help somebody")

he also has some cuts on the last mint condition record:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlR1PlNKnJU

Dude, you should just turn on WKCR right now and listen to the Roy Eldridge 100th birthday tribute and you will get quite an education right there.

Happy to take opinions on these records. I don't think I've seen any mentioned in this thread to date (naturally, I'll stop by the record store later this week and pick up the best of the lot):

ornette's sound grammar: recent live album, beautiful sound, mix of his 60s-era approach and some atmospheric violin (played better than he's known to...). Critically acclaimed and highly recommended (if you really like this one, go back for art of improvisers...representative of his Atlantic Records output, but not as exceptional as Change of the Century, or Shape of Jazz to Come, for inst.)

Miles' Black Beauty is HEAVY. Includes some electric funk, infinitely better ensemble playing than Miles at Filmore (the one it gets compared to). Marred a little by unbalanced mix of instruments at times, but definitely sounds like nothing else.

Mingus Oh Yeah. Fantastic. Mingus plays piano on this instead of bass. Lots of barrelhouse piano and shouting. Roland Kirk is also all over it...

Impulse years comps are usually great, if they include guys like Shepp, Tolliver, Tyner...it was an impulse comp that introduced me to Archie Shepp and then to indispensable records like Four for Trane and Fire Music...

Thanks, those all sound great!

John Coltrane & Don Cherry - The Avant-Garde
- this one has always been a little disappointing to me, even tho i love both coltrane and cherry.

How so?

Derek Bailey - Ballads

^ after years of playing free improv, Bailey went back and revisited some jazz standards, so this isn't exactly typical DB, but it is a really good record and maybe a good way into his whole thing.

Joe Henderson - Big Band

really really really great record

but i'm a total joe henderson stan and have japanese bootlegs and stuff so

xpost eh, just doesn't sound very inspired. most of it (all of it?) is made up of ornette compositions, and coltrane doesn't sound very comfortable/sure of himself. not a lot of fireworks betw. the players. more of an interesting experiment than a real success. if you're looking for good stuff from the atlantic era, Ole is a much better bet.

Is that Joe Henderson record actually a big band thing? Usually the words "big band" mean "run for the hills" in my world... but maybe I shouldn't be so hasty.

Duke Ellington had a big band y'know. so did Count Basie.

(no one ever talks about Count Basie anymore, it's kinda sad)

Usually the words "big band" mean "run for the hills" in my world... but maybe I shouldn't be so hasty.

― the new mordant & zingy ilxor persona (ilxor), Monday, January 31, 2011 11:21 AM (9 minutes ago) Bookmark

wtf

big bands are rad. they don't all sound like big bad voodoo daddy.

haha.

I think it was just this album cover that made ilxor run for the hills
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51qG7lCvInL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

i remember that record being way heavier on the slow jamz than i expected when i copped it

wtf

― *kl0p* (deej), Monday, January 31, 2011 11:31 AM (4 minutes ago)

Insightful deej post, as always.

I'm just saying, I don't like much of the big band jazz stuff I've heard. Just being honest. And I'm not sure why that's surprising, given that I've started a thread about never having tried to get into jazz until now, and that I've been upfront that I'm approaching the genre from an entirely different angle than, say, deej (for me: tons of psych, kraut, free folk/rock).

^^^^a+ all-time album. swings so, so hard.

xp to atomic mr basie

its like asking for a rock primer & mentioning that you dont like the electric guitar, dude. i think 'wtf' is a fair response

Nah, I didn't say I don't like sax or trumpet or piano. I said I don't generally like what I've heard of the "big band" sound/aesthetic. Reminds me of seeing my high school marching band at a football game. And yes, I know that's insanely RONG, but whatever.

Anyway, there are plenty of rock fans on ILM who don't enjoy, say, the Stones or Beatles. Which is perfectly valid, and a matter of personal taste. Not sure how that's different from getting into jazz but having an aversion to big band stuff (which I'm open to exploring, btw, but have a feeling I won't enjoy as much as some people do).

Btw, I played a Sun Ra record today (first time!) and it was nice but not mindblowing. I'll do a full post/review a bit later once I've had more time to process, and the ILM albums poll shuts down for the day.

Is that Joe Henderson record actually a big band thing? Usually the words "big band" mean "run for the hills" in my world... but maybe I shouldn't be so hasty.

― the new mordant & zingy ilxor persona (ilxor), Monday, 31 January 2011 17:21 (20 minutes ago) Bookmark

its a v modern progressive big band kinda thing, not benny goodman stylee at all--saying this as a dude who owns a lot of benny goodman & basie & krupa etc

Atomic Basie is great but you should also check out some classic Basie with the All-American Rhythm Section- Jo Jones on drums, Freddie Green on guitar and Walter Page on bass, all of whom are revered by players of their respective instruments- they kind of wrote the book on how the jazz rhythm section is supposed to work. They always sound great especially when Lester Young is in the band, especially with Jimmy Rushing ("Mr.Five By Five") on vocals. Actually all I've got on this myself is some old Columbia comps- maybe I'll spring for the Mosaic Basie-Lester Young box.

this is what you want in terms of early basie
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x204/Epicentre_TS/cd_Count_Basie_DeccaRecordings.jpg
but i feel like there might be better sounding versions of these recordings out there? comp was early 90s, i think.

Monk's "Big Band and Quartet in Concert" might be a good place to start, as far as overcoming your aversion to the big band sound, ilxor. Unorthodox charts and typical monk quirkiness keep it from, you know, reminding you too much of Benny Goodman and grammas and grandpas gettin' down...

http://musicoogle.com/uploads/posts/2010-06/1277067856_1e813cf200081.jpeg

typical monk quirkiness

Can you expand on this thought a bit? I haven't listened to a ton of Monk yet, but I played Straight, No Chaser the other day and it sounds pretty, er, straightforward to me, in terms of his piano playing. #wentovermyhead

reminding you too much of Benny Goodman and grammas and grandpas

Listen to at least the first four minutes of this, and tell me what you think:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TLEPQZIVOg

Oh Yeah - fantastic, rowdy, profane, funny, swingin' - my favorite of these

The Avant-Garde - think Tyler covered this, just a near miss record all around, good in theory but not practice.

Stellar Regions - have this but can't remember it, thanks for the reminder. with Alice and Rashied so it's gotta be at least decent.

re: Monk, this from his wiki page sums it up pretty well:

His compositions and improvisations are full of dissonant harmonies and angular melodic twists, and are consistent with Monk's unorthodox approach to the piano, which combined a highly percussive attack with abrupt, dramatic use of silences and hesitations.

Certain cats like Monk and Coltrane who were viewed as quirky or far-out at the time by some of their contemporaries are a lot easier to listen to and relate to for non-jazz listeners because they are such strong personalities, composers and band leaders that their stuff doesn't run the risk of falling back into the vast background ocean of jazz. Plus, we have had 50+ years of all kinds of other weird sounds coming at us to take some of the edge off.

otm

well, there you go!

I wish I could recommend the Kelley bio of Monk more highly, but ultimately it came across more as a laundry list of his and the world's grievances against each other, deserved and undeserved, and less about Monk the composer/player.

yeah Mingus and Ra both have pretty interesting takes on trad big band structure. I can see how the millionth version of "take the A train" wouldn't appeal to ilxor's predispositions, but it's a fairly fluid subset of jazz, there's a lot you can do with large ensembles.

many xposts

i think ilxor should worry about his first time thru 'take the a train' rather than his millionth

Funny, but I've heard "A Train" a bunch of times before.

Though I'm not sure which recording/version.

Just make sure you get the ending right, or it's a $50 fine.

wish I could recommend the Kelley bio of Monk more highly, but ultimately it came across more as a laundry list of his and the world's grievances against each other, deserved and undeserved, and less about Monk the composer/player.

Just make sure you get the ending right, or it's a $50 fine.

^^^IRL lolz

A+

reminded me of:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-ssZeOZkWU

I'm gonna speak in ilxor's defense here - I don't like big bands either. All those dudes blowing in unison remind me of chained-up oarsmen on a slave ship in some old movie. No thanks.

I have those Decca Basies, and sometimes I get in the mood for 'em. Other than that, though, I don't tend to like any jazz group with more than seven or at most eight musicians, and I prefer five or six, max.

All those dudes blowing in unison remind me of chained-up oarsmen on a slave ship in some old movie.

Wow, and I thought my being reminded of high school marching bands was bad...

Re: big bands -- love the rich tones they achieve, often not a fan of the material. Search: Gil Evans' stuff, Zappa's Grand Wazoo

Gil Evans, oh hell yeah. I played "Live at the Sweet Basil" on a long drive recently and the time flew by. Not your great-grandpa's big band.

the simple fact is there are particular things you can do with large scale ensembles in terms of harmonic complexity and multiple parts that is just not possible with smaller combos. they have a wider tonal palette (in the case of Ra, they also have a wider rhythmic palette haha).

John Coltrane & Don Cherry - The Avant-Garde
Miles Davis - Black Beauty
Joe Henderson - Big Band
Charles Mingus - Oh Yeah

^^ these, for reasons stated by others (note ilxor-style dbl carrot #credmove). the avant-garde is a personal favorite. maybe not coltrane's finest hour, but cherry & the rest of the band are great on it.

(note ilxor-style dbl carrot #credmove)

NICE!

xpost yeah, i mean, a lot of stuff like ellington or gil evans is even *more* psychedelic to my ears than the 60s "out" stuff. just sort of this bottomless sound that can be as heavy as any doom record, or as light as, i dunno, ambient eno.