The Led Zeppelin Plagiarism Compendium

Led Zeppelin

Babe I'm Gonna Leave You: Joan Baez - Babe I'm Gonna Leave You (Anne Brendon)
Dazed and Confused: Jake Holmes - Dazed and Confused
Black Mountain Side: Bert Jansch - Black Water Side
How Many More Times: Howlin Wolf - How Many More Years / Albert King - The Hunter / Jeff Beck - Bolero
Communication Breakdown: Eddie Cochran - Nervous Breakdown
Your Time Is Gonna Come: Traffic - Dear Mr. Fantasy

Led Zeppelin II

Whole lotta love: Muddy Waters (Willie Dixon) - You Need Love / Small Faces - You Need Loving
Lemon Song: Howlin' Wolf - Killing Floor / Robert Johnson - Travelling Riverside Blues
Moby Dick: Bobby Parker - Watch Your Step
Bring it on Home: Sonny Boy Williamson - Bring it on Back

Led Zeppelin III

Since I've Been Loving You: Moby Grape - Never
Hats Off: Bukka White - Shake 'em on Down

Led Zeppelin IV

Stairway to Heaven: Spirit - Taurus

Physical Graffiti

Custard pie: Sleepy John Estes - Drop Down Mama
In my time of dying: Bob Dylan - In my time of dying (Blind Willie Johnson)

Presence

Nobody’s Fault But Mine: Blind Willie Johnson - Nobody’s Fault But Mine

Didn't have the courtesy to credit any of these artists but at least they were kind of enough to give hints on the titles for us to know which song they were attempting to rip off.

Stones did this with some songwriting credits (e.g. "Melody" credited Billy Preston for "inspiration"; Ronnie Wood got the same for "Hey Negrita").

Nobody’s Fault But Mine: Blind Willie Johnson - Nobody’s Fault But Mine

this one seems more than a hint. was it a cover version?

Some CD reissues releases have a few (no doubt court-ordered and/or settlement-stipulated) updated credits, e.g., "Whole Lotta Love" co-credited to Dixon, "Lemon Song" co-credited to Wolf.

Nobody’s Fault But Mine: Blind Willie Johnson - Nobody’s Fault But Mine

this one seems more than a hint. was it a cover version?

― Daniel, Esq.

Yep, an uncredited one at that though. The song on the Presence album is credited to Plant/Page. When confronted about it Page said it was a public domain traditional blues song and that it didn't even belong to Blind Willie Johnson in the first place. It is sort of a gray area for sure since although BWJ was the first musician to record it, it wasn't registered with any copyright association and resides indeed in public domain.

snooze

The Bob Dylan Plagiarism Compendium

The Pablo Picasso Plagiarism Compendium

King Lear is an uncredited ripoff of King Leir

Same should be said about 'Drop Down Mama' by Estes and 'In my time of dying' first recorded by Blind Willie Johnson as 'Jesus Make Up My Dying Bed' (Their version is definitely inspired by Bob Dylan's version and not the former though) both of them also without copyright registers.

It seems the boys grew smarter with each subsequent album and only took credit for songs in public domain as time passed by.

The Stones ones are different though - those aren't ripping off existing songs, it's ripping off the guys who were playing with them.

The Bob Dylan Plagiarism Compendium

The Pablo Picasso Plagiarism Compendium

― Hadrian VIII, Thursday, August 19, 2010 12:22 AM (9 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Idiotic. These Zeppelin ripoffs are clearly plagiarism and theyve been called on the carpet on most. the most egregious is the theft of Dazed and Confused, the guy who originally did it was apparently ignorant of his rights and slept on them until the statute of limitations ran.

Zeppelin sucks.

King Lear is an uncredited ripoff of King Leir

― Hadrian VIII, Thursday, August 19, 2010 12:25 AM (9 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Totally missing the point. Again.

Zeppelin sucks.

Yeah, I used to think "Oh, Whole lotta love is soet of based on a similar thing on the Small Faces album, so I'm told" until I actually got to hear the track and then I thought "IT'S EXACTLY THE RUDDY SAME!!!"

"Zeppelin sucks" = why you can't be honestly engaged on this topic

Srsly though Bill, this lingering "rock war" ("SABBATH VS ZEPPELIN: WHO WILL BE MASTER")from your pimply Creem magazine days, it's time to let it go.

It's all good. I mean, literally, it's all good.

Love Zep, but everytime some kind of rockist says 'DJs don't make real music' I remind them of what Jimmy Page did.

Whether or not the band borrowed or stole, no one borrowed or stole John Bonham and John Paul Jones.

"Zeppelin sucks" = why you can't be honestly engaged on this topic

― Hadrian VIII, Thursday, August 19, 2010 9:40 AM (13 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

I'll engage in whatever fucking topic I feel like, thank you.

Ha, no, I meant my own engagement.

And yet here we are!

Srsly though Bill, this lingering "rock war" ("SABBATH VS ZEPPELIN: WHO WILL BE MASTER")from your pimply Creem magazine days, it's time to let it go.

^if you think this is what I am doing, you're kidding yourself.

Whether or not the band borrowed or stole, no one borrowed or stole John Bonham and John Paul Jones.

ya srsly, regardless of where they got the songs from, they still had to play them

and they played the SHIT out of them

Those two guys may have, but it's kind of ruined for me by the loosy goosy, violin bow wielding sloppy guitar playing, the 26 minute rockabilly medleys and the faux-cocksman of a frontman. I'd rather listen to Beck, Bogert and Appice.

"One of the surest tests [of the superiority or inferiority of a poet] is the way in which a poet borrows. Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different." - T.S. Eliot

Nice quote, but I doubt that you can honestly argue that Zeppelin played his tunes better than Howlin Wolf

lol guys it's 2010

steal or not (I think it's pretty common knowledge that Zeppelin shamelessly ripped off blues musicians using the "public domain" excuse, not exactly a smoking gun), who cares? in the end, Zeppelin's music sounds great to my ears.

besides I mean using this same slippery slope are we gonna say people who don't write their own songs suck too?

xpost hahah yeah srsly this is one rusty can of worms. Hasn't this been done here like 6,000 times already?

"One of the surest tests [of the superiority or inferiority of a poet] is the way in which a poet borrows. Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different."
And in practically every case, the original was superior than the uncredited LZ remake. I mean, Howlin' Wolf and Muddy Waters, etc, eat those boys for breakfast.

TS Eliot was a dick fwiw

god the electric blues is so fucking boring

led zep basically made it tolerable

The point of the thread is the egregiousness of their plagiarism. Obviously lots of people like the plagiarized songs, theyve sold a trillion records. I happen not to like them, which puts me in a minority, I guess. The fact that many people think they are "good" doesnt mean they werent ripped off. Which Zep acknowledged after guys like Willie Dixon sued their ass.

besides I mean using this same slippery slope are we gonna say people who don't write their own songs suck too?

well first off, that's not a slippery slope at all because the issue here is the dishonesty in taking other people's material; artists who perform other people's songs are crediting the songwriters and any money they make gets split with the people who wrote the song

signed, a classical singer

Actually, Bill, that quote swings both ways. I like Zep fair enough and I like Howlin' Wolf but I think it's a little late to engage in the polemic about white Englishmen ripping off black American artists. They did, were successful at it, alas, and made some good music at times, even. Imso, 'tis better at this point to encourage people to buy the originals than to disparage their love of Zep or the Stones or whatever.

the point is, does plagiarism matter? is it worth getting worked up about?

um.... YES

I mean talk about stupid questions

led zep basically made it tolerable
No, they watered it down, took all the drama out of it and made it shit.

not a stupid question imo

xp

Then you are stupid. Plagarism sucks.

the plagiarism definitely matters, it's just that like the revelation that this occurred was old even by 1990.

Actually, and I am merely quoting the master, the best way to resolve this dispute is surely champagne and reefer.

there was one debate I read somewhere (newsgroups???) that theorized that Led Zeppelin were subscribing to the old accepted notion amongst blues guitarists that blues was a 'shared' communal music so that ideas could be used collectively and 'borrowed', per se.

Although as one of the respondents correctly pointed out, that doesn't really apply when you're a major recording artist on a major label, rather than being an unsigned blues guitarist gigging at clubs.

Guitar Magazine also did a fairly nice breakdown of Zep's plagiarism in an issue around 1995-1997, although they focused more on one to two specific songs ("Lemon Song" was one).

I'd like to know how many albums Zeppelin sold last year. I bet it's a significant one. The plagiarism issue is still a valid one, though maybe alleviated a little bit by the fact the writers of the songs are getting a cut. Except for the poor Dazed and Confused guy. And Page did a flat out note for note rip of that song, if I remember correctly.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6a/Manet%2C_Edouard_-_Olympia%2C_1863.jpg/300px-Manet%2C_Edouard_-_Olympia%2C_1863.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/ba/Tizian_102.jpg/250px-Tizian_102.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7b/Venus_dormida.jpg/250px-Venus_dormida.jpg

"Actually, and I am merely quoting the master, the best way to resolve this dispute is surely champagne and reefer."

Certainly works for me.

plagiarism or not, I can't trick my ears into not liking what I hear when "Dazed and Confused" comes on. there's no contradiction in finding the act itself deplorable while still "liking" the music

loosy goosy, violin bow wielding sloppy guitar playing

LOL you know what the blues really needs to make it exciting is rigid, perfectly exercised technique.

many xps yeah that's what drives me crazy--it's not that plagiarism "doesn't matter," it's that everyone knows this and knew it 20 years ago, the impacted parties are all dead, and yet the opening post of this thread is like some smoking gun shit that is suddenly supposed to do....what? how is this information supposed to impact me?

the solo in "Rock 'n roll" is so sloppy that I gave up trying to learn it cuz I can't make out half of it. but uhm are we really talking about sloppiness as a detractor in blues-based rock 'n roll, cuz if so there's a lot of bands that will need to snap their guitar cases shut.

Q: Are the second and third in this series of pictures "deplorable"?

http://www.albany.edu/~delong/virtualvel/goya_picasso_dali.jpg

(Neither credits Goya)

hey guyz do you think HEre Comes the Hotstepper is a ripoff of Come Together

xxp well I didn't know all this, I find the debate mildly diverting and it's good that it has its own thread on ilm. so this information 'impacts' me for sure.

glad 4 u

hey I was just about to post those paintings! first one is Velazquez though not Goya.

that would be extra deplorable if they had credited goya then

Big payout

well I guess it's only a matter of time before the sister "The Quentin Tarantino Plagiarism Compendium" thread gets started on ILE.

altho that one is fairly more engaging because it's ongoing as he's still making movies

My problem with Zeppelin (besides Robert Plant’s voice) is not so much that they borrowed or stole songs, but that they didn’t even bother to acknowledge those artists who helped shape their sound. The Rolling Stones once refused to appear on a TV show unless Howlin’ Wolf was given a spot, too. In the folk or blues tradition, it’s quite common to “borrow” themes, melodies, etc. — Dylan’s been doing it his whole career. But the guy has always trumpeted his admiration for those who influenced him, naming names in countless interviews for nearly 50 years now. He helped bring a lot of his musical heroes to the public eye and, yes, increase their record sales (whether they actually saw a dime of the profits or not).
LZ basically said: “This is our song. Fuck you.”

hey, and you guys don't have Morbs to deal with in this thread!

xpost

I love Robert Plant's voice. also I don't think anybody here is saying "plagiarism is a-ok".

except for anagram

well I dunno if I would say it was a-ok. and I'm no Led Zep fan. but in general the knowledge that some riff or lyric or something is ripped off is not enough to spoil my enjoyment of it.

Hey, I think they were an awesome-sounding group (again, except for Plant, whose shrieking is more painful to my ears than nails on a chalkboard). But they managed to distinguish themselves as being even bigger twats than nearly every other multiplatinum-selling band. That takes some doing.

Led Zeppelin is just ripped off blues, in fact their music is exactly the same as Blind Willie Johnson. In fact if people weren't so racist you could have put Blind Willie Johnson in front of an arena and it would have had the same effect on the audience as Led Zeppelin because Led Zeppelin did not actually bring anything to the music.

The Bob Dylan Plagiarism Compendium

The Pablo Picasso Plagiarism Compendium

― Hadrian VIII, Thursday, August 19, 2010 12:22 AM Bookmark

The Robert Johnson Plagiarism Compendium

The Miles Davis Plagiarism Compendium

etc

The Stones ones are different though - those aren't ripping off existing songs, it's ripping off the guys who were playing with them.

this is a boring argument/thread in general but I would just like to point out that this is historically inaccurate (see: Staple Singers, tons of others)

but that they didn’t even bother to acknowledge those artists who helped shape their sound.

I don't think this is true at all either fwiw

Page namechecks the author of In My Time of Dying from the stage in How the West Was Won iirc

this is a boring argument/thread in general....

^ then why did you click on it?

I didn't think Moka's post was argumentative or critical - it is interesting to pore over Zep's sources (as I enjoyed doing with this comp: http://www.discogs.com/Various-The-Roots-Of-Led-Zeppelin/release/519398). But when it turned into: RIPOFF ARTISTS! J'ACCUSE then it got bad.

sorry Bill

I said this on some other thread but one of the things that I think gets overstated is that while Zep borrowed/stole liberally (I don't think there's anything at all wrong with this, fwiw) they're stuff rarely actually SOUNDS like the original. the production/arrangement/performance of material was a central aspect of Zeppelin, and claiming that, for example, they're version of Nobody's Fault But Mine bears anything more than a passing resemblance to Bukka's stripped-down, lo-fi original is just ridiculous.

Yeah, that.

^^^^^^^

Totally disagree. I like how you picked that one and not a complete and utter ripoff like Dazed and Confused. And Ive never heard Bukka White's version, but a steal is a steal.

rock must be virtuous

Just because you turn your amps up to 11 and feed Bonham some extra-fine Bolivian prior to recording what was originally a mellow number doesnt justify the plagiarism.

If they had been a real band, they wouldnt have to rip guys off. Has nothing to do with virtue.

you think they're that bad? i'm no fan, mind you, but that's QUITE A CLAIM.

man what am i gonna do with these fake Led Zeppelin cds

i mean before today i considered myself a led zeppelin fan but after being smacked in the face with this 20+ year old evidence that everybody already knew, I think it's time to reconsider....

lol "real band"

I dunno Bill these are just kinda lame ad hominem attacks

So i guess what Im saying is that this point is irrelevant:

"they're version of Nobody's Fault But Mine bears anything more than a passing resemblance to Bukka's stripped-down, lo-fi original is just ridiculous"

I can't comment on that cuz I haven't heard Bukka's, but how you got from that to Led Zeppelin not being a real band = o_O.

you think they're that bad? i'm no fan, mind you, but that's QUITE A CLAIM.

― Daniel, Esq., Thursday, August 19, 2010 12:50 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

I'm not a fan.

you think this sounds JUST LIKE the Zep version = you have no ears

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTsvs-pAGDc

I never said that. Check my post at 12:51. Arrangement and songwriting are two completely different things.

they weren't writing a term paper jeez

so let me ask this, if Led Zeppelin went back and time and wrote the exact same music but gave proper credits/recognition from the bungee, would you be a fan?

a complete and utter ripoff like Dazed and Confused

it is not a complete and utter ripoff fyi

a complete and utter ripoff would have also kept the Zep version under 4 minutes

I suspect that Bill is just butthurt that Sabbath's "War Pigs" is a COMPLETE AND UTTER RIPOFF of Zep's "Good Times, Bad Times"

like just cuz they changed some words around and added a long improvisatory section in the middle and slowed it down doesn't mean it isn't the worst most unforgiveable sin imaginable and btw Sabbath are not a real band

Just because you turn your amps up to 11 and feed Bonham some extra-fine Bolivian prior to recording what was originally a mellow number doesnt justify the plagiarism.

― Sabbath to Ulver: "Suck It" (Bill Magill), Thursday, August 19, 2010 12:46 PM (10 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

just because you take a boring song and make it awesome oh wait

the whole point of music, and especially hard rock music, is to be awesome

led zep and black sabbath were both awesome. case closed.

man what am i gonna do with these fake Led Zeppelin cds
OK I laughed.

anyway ... back to Moka's list:

does Bonham quoting Max Roach in Moby Dick count?

Ok this list totally left off that they lifted "Immigrant Song" from The Osmonds' "Hold Her Tight."

I'm being sued by John Cage for ripping off "4'33" while sleeping

so let me ask this, if Led Zeppelin went back and time and wrote the exact same music but gave proper credits/recognition from the bungee, would you be a fan?

― michangelo wuz a party d00d (San Te), Thursday, August 19, 2010 12:54 PM (28 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

no

I suspect that Bill is just butthurt that Sabbath's "War Pigs" is a COMPLETE AND UTTER RIPOFF of Zep's "Good Times, Bad Times"

― glitter hands! glitter hands! razzle! dazzle! (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, August 19, 2010 12:56 PM (27 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

When did I once mention Black Sabbath on this thread?

you just did

hilarious, i mean before that

so let me ask this, if Led Zeppelin went back and time and wrote the exact same music but gave proper credits/recognition from the bungee, would you be a fan?

― michangelo wuz a party d00d (San Te), Thursday, August 19, 2010 12:54 PM (28 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

no

― Sabbath to Ulver: "Suck It" (Bill Magill), Thursday, August 19, 2010 12:23 PM

Ok then, it seems that you don't like them as a band simply cuz you don't like their songs, or in the case of the 'ripped off' songs, the way they perform them. upthread you seemed to be implying that the uncredited ripoff played a large part in your dislike of the music is why I asked.

Correct. I understand i am in the minority

oh this is TOOMUCH

*shrug* I know quite a few people who don't like Zep, it's not a crime.

can't believe led zep ripped off the completely original 100% unborrowed tunes of these blues masters

this thread = The Bill Magill plagiarism of some tedious assholes I went to college with compendium

This thread needs customized version of
http://i50.tinypic.com/vg0kmx.jpg

http://i50.tinypic.com/vg0kmx.jpg

http://api.ning.com/files/mK6wCFVHxshW4GltygKiFf753kTfTYw6ZmN2-Mwp5btWAUMxxluQV1BEys4Z69if5dNOhdRxDdAlWr7LyjFL3VgEIGFZkp4W/tonyiommijimmypagejeffbeckjsteventyler.jpg

this thread = The Bill Magill plagiarism of some tedious assholes I went to college with compendium

― Ground Zero Mostel (Hurting 2), Thursday, August 19, 2010 1:30 PM (6 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Jeez, sorry for discussing plagiarism by Led Zeppelin on a thread about plagiarism by Led Zeppelin.

When did I once mention Black Sabbath on this thread?

― Sabbath to Ulver: "Suck It" (Bill Magill), Thursday, August 19, 2010 5:24 PM (34 minutes ago) Bookmark

Please to read your own display name.

Again, the question is when i ever mentioned that band on this thread.

great thread.

i never knew the zep ripped off so many truly songs that were 1000% original in the first place.

TRULY

I just hope it gets someone to listen to Spirit, eh? They're a pretty great (if kinda goofY) band.

can't believe led zep ripped off the completely original 100% unborrowed tunes of these blues masters

― hongthrone: norsk arisk synth pop (crüt), Thursday, August 19, 2010 8:29 PM (2 hours ago) Bookmark

^^^ the money shot

The funny thing is, The Yardbirds were doing this shit way before Plant & Page signed on.

I don't think anybody has pointed out yet how the Beatles shamelessly and egregiously ripped off the Rutles in similar fashion, raping their career.

if the Beatles had been a real band they wouldn't have had to rip off Chuck Berry and John Cage

beatles suck

also Tom Waits ripped off Rolf from the Muppets vocally

I've been thinking lately that Lady Gaga might have stolen a couple of things from Madonna, does anyone else think so? Maybe it's just me, but I think "Poker Face" sounds a lot like a sped-up version of "Live To Tell". What a rip off!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rutles#Lawsuits

Following the release of the 1978 The Rutles album, ATV Music, the then-owner of the publishing rights to the Beatles catalog, sued Innes for copyright infringement. Though Innes hired a musicologist to defend the originality of his songs[2], he settled with ATV out of court for 50% of the royalties and shared songwriting credit on the 14 songs included on the album.

I've been thinking lately that Lady Gaga might have stolen a couple of things from Madonna, does anyone else think so?

omg no!

mama monster is an original.

Thanks to this thread for schooling me on the Jake Holmes track. Nice!

"also I don't think anybody here is saying "plagiarism is a-ok"."

i'm not really here, but i think its a-ok.

I'm waiting for Blind Willie McTell's "Achilles Last Stand" to surface one of these days.

ooh I see we haven't referenced Bonham's quote of Little Richard's "You Keep a Knockin' (But You Can't Come In)" At the beginning of "Rock 'n' Roll" either...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYr7I4gOSXk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GonQSHxzb1k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbrjRKB586s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6C_5wxkuAQ&feature=search

man if i close my eyes and listen i honestly can't tell which is which

You're probably clicking the same button if yr eyes are closed.

The older I get and the more music I hear the better Led Zeppelin gets.

I'll admit I 'quite liked' PhysGraf, at least parts of it anyway.

I mean in every respect — the songwriting and the musicianship and yes the STYLE (I know this is not the cw but in retrospect their exceptional taste is just more and more apparent), but mostly the sonics. I just don't own many records that sound better than the ones Jimmy Page made.

I just don't own many records that sound better than the ones Jimmy Page made.

I've always maintained that Page is a lot more interesting as a producer than he is as a guitarist. (despite his great scenes in It Might Get Loud)

I agree and I don't think this diminishes his guitar playing one bit.

been avoiding It Might Get Loud cuz of the edge but I am pretty curious about the Page bits. He was an amazing producer, the engineering on the Zep records is next level.

The part in his house among his record collection where he's blissing out to Link Wray is pretty great.

Also re: above clip when he's in the foyer at Headley Grange explaining how they set up Bonzo's kit for Levee. Awesome.

There's about 5-10 minutes of that movie worth watching, all involving Page. I wouldn't recommend sitting through the whole thing.

Yeah it's otherwise kind of a cringe-fest. The other two guys wear "hat" hats and have relatively limited perspectives/bags of tricks.

Whoever had the bright idea for the big climax to be the three of them getting together and playing that massive guitar anthem "The Weight" should be kicked in the nuts.

So so painful.

Absolutely the most wtf part about the whole thing, aside from the casting.

i liked the movie quite a bit, but yeah "the weight" is one of the most wtf musical moments in cinematic history. and my favorite wtf moment within that wtf moment is edge suddenly realizing, just as they're about to play it, that they've been practicing the verses wrong, with an Em chord where a Bm should go. it struck me as wft-ily odd that three guitar greats could miss that. it also made me feel significantly better about myself.

Whoever had the bright idea for the big climax to be the three of them getting together and playing that massive guitar anthem "The Weight" should be kicked in the nuts.
lol, i haven't seen this yet, but my friend who has ranted about "the weight" sequence for about six months.

ranting friend otm

"The older I get and the more music I hear the better Led Zeppelin gets." ― Hadrian VIII

^^^ YES.

Copy/pasting my post from "It Might Get Loud"

Finally got around to watching this and yeah, the high-concept gave me a bad taste but the Page stuff was great. He was basically the only one of the three with anything meaningful to say and it was kinda neat seeing him quietly analyze what the other guys were doing (like the run through "I Will Follow") and then make it sound like Zeppelin.

Best part: Page cutting into "Whole Lotta Love" and Edge and White both bug-eyeing out because Jimmy Page Is Playing Zeppelin Right In Front Of Them.

― Elvis Telecom, Sunday, June 6, 2010 12:49 AM (2 months ago)

Here is a cartoon-slide review of a book that seems to be relevant to our discussion. It has Ben Franklin as Superman leading us through the slides, but I prefer to think of the guy as Shakey Mo Collier in tights leading the pro-plagiarism brigade. Substitute the "BF" on his chest for "SMC". Enjoy:

http://www.salon.com/books/feature/2010/08/23/common_as_air_lewis_hyde/slideshow.html

The Gift is terrific book.

"A" terrific book, even. Ironically it was the book that convinced me to lend out books again after never getting so many back...and I never got it back :(

Yeah, I used to think "Oh, Whole lotta love is soet of based on a similar thing on the Small Faces album, so I'm told" until I actually got to hear the track and then I thought "IT'S EXACTLY THE RUDDY SAME!!!"

Yeah, more or less. Led Zeppelin rips off the Small Faces track "You Need Loving" which was itself more or less ripped off from Willie Dixon's "You Need Love". And yet, hilariously, 20 years later Willie Dixon sues Zep instead of the Faces! And wins his share of the publishing royalies. Shrewd guy, considering that Led Zeppelin II sold 93 times as many copies as The Small Faces over the years.

doesn't eddie kramer deserve most/all of the credit for the actual engineering on zep records?

I dunno I think that's similar to crediting Chuck Britz for all the weird stuff on the BB's records, or Geoff Emerick for the Beatles

doesn't eddie kramer deserve most/all of the credit for the actual engineering on zep records?

No.

Specifically, Page swapped engineers around so people like you wouldn't say things like that (about the engineers I mean, not Kramer in particular). I mean, they seemed to manage alright without him on IV.

"I consciously kept changing engineers because I didn't want people to think that they were responsible for our sound. I wanted people to know it was me."

Sounds like a peach of a guy.

If he gave all his money to earthquake victims, you'd suspect it was a tax avoidance scheme. We get it, you hate Zeppelin, etc.

Well, I saw some recent interviews. RobPlant seemed like a nice guy. Page did not.

Task Brasil was given an enormous boost in 1997 with a very generous donation by Jimmy Page, the Led Zeppelin rock icon, who witnessed first hand the deprivation of the children and troubles in the favelas whilst playing in Rio de Janeiro. The money donated was used to buy a plot of land in Santa Teresa on which ‘Casa Jimmy’ was built to provide a safe and happy home for a lucky few of the abandoned children.

Showoff! Carpetbagger!

http://www.taskbrasil.org.uk/

Page made those kids poor in the first place dontchaknow. also I think he killed their parents.

for a 'lucky few'. WHAT ABOUT EVERYONE ELSE JIMMY?????

also jimmy has yet to deny the rumors that he killed 100,000 people in East Timor. IF YOU'RE INNOCENT WHY AINTCHOO TALKIN ABOUT IT

Before recording Presence in 1976 Jimmy Page massacred thousands in the Laotian foothills and FAILED TO CREDIT POL POT.

lol

Those aren't pearl inlays in his fretboard, they're teeth.

"The Rain Song" totally ripped off George Harrison's "Something" - the two-chord intro is identical. But the compendium didn't mention it because Harrison himself stole it from the Chiffons.

Todd Rundgren also once accused George Harrison of stealing his production credits on some album (don't remember which one, the quote was in Guitar mgazine though)

(xp) and the chiffons totally ripped off jake holmes.

Steered clear of this thread for a while but it was worth clicking on to read about "The Weight."

I've always maintained that Page is a lot more interesting as a producer than he is as a guitarist.

Todd Rundgren also once accused George Harrison of stealing his production credits on some album (don't remember which one, the quote was in Guitar mgazine though)

Must've been one of the Badfinger records.

ahh yes that's who it was

xposts - And Jake Holmes' "No Time Or Space" was totally ripped off without credit by Bernie Krause before Harrison ever had a chance to rip it off the uncredited Krause without credit

Still, you have to give him credit.

ZEPPELIN RULES!

this was a good thread

been in a led zep kinda mood lately, it still happens to me every couple of years or so

Basically I think it diminishes them as people that they didn't give co-writing credits in at least some of these cases. About 10% of them or so are really egregious cases of stealing, e.g. Dazed and Confused. At the same time, Jake Holmes's version kind of sucks compared to Led Zeppelin. So they're diminished as people but not as a kick ass band.

What was the response to Led Zeppelin's "plagiarism" at the time? Were there astute critics who pointed it out in the press? Was the public attitude toward such things different back then?

the press were already pretty adversarial towards LZ at the time, and it had little impact on their success, so I'm guessing if it was pointed out it was also ignored.

Would be interesting to read more about it -- I imagine there was a strong strain of blues/folk nerdery in GB at the time and Zeppelin probably sounded to them like Blues Hammer to Steve Buscemi's character in Ghost World

I remember when Michael Jackson's "Will You Be There?" controversy (ie the one with the foreign artist who claimed it ripped off his song before it was discovered that both ripped off a 40s tune), MTV did a shitty segment on it and then at one point, brought out a band who wrote a song that sounded somewhat similar to "Kashmir" and brought Page/Plant out to comment.

They, of course, were very ambivalent (comments like "I dunno, songs occasionally have similarities"), but I felt like MTV was trying to back them into a gotcha moment so they could go "OH? LED ZEPPELIN HAS A PROBLEM WITH SONG APPROPRIATION? REALLY?"

in re the OP list -- so there's no plagiarism at all on Houses of the Holy?

I stand by everything i posted on this thread 3.5 years ago

well look what the toilet plunger plunged up

mature, very mature

Again, not sure why you would get on somebody for criticizing Led Zeppelin's plagiarism on a Led Zeppelin plagiarism board.

I think criticizing them for not crediting it is very reasonable. Criticizing them for not being "original" or something just seems totally ignorant of the entire history of music.

I'll criticize you for being one of the biggest fucking idiots of all time. The toilet plunger plunged up your fucking afterbirth after your mother sat on it, but somehow you miraculously survived.

and to think I thought Seth Putnam was dead

Jake Holmes's version kind of sucks compared to Led Zeppelin.

could not disagree with this more

"One of the surest tests [of the superiority or inferiority of a poet] is the way in which a poet borrows. Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different." - T.S. Eliot

Getting really tired of this moronic, contagiously stupid meme about how the truly great artists "steal." I want someone to come out in unrepentant support of this statement and then tell me how each of the following bands fit into the template: the Beatles, the Rolling Stones, Oasis, Bob Dylan, the Ramones, and Nirvana.

"we were the biggest nickers in the book, plagiarists extraordinaire" - P. McCartney

dylan took people's arrangements of songs, and sometimes lyrics and melodies from trad tunes, most recently stole some stuff from a japanese book and some other old poetry on recent albums

nirvana were embarassed cuz they felt like ppl would just laugh as smells like teen spirit as a pixies ripoff

oasis stole that coke commercial, but they were kind of a shitty band overall tho

ramones probably ripped off some old obscure girl group shit or something, but they are the ramones they rule

all those bands are great, and all of them borrowed liberally

do you really need specific examples? there's so many to choose from

if you want to know how and from whom the beatles, stones, oasis, dylan, the ramones and nirvana dd their stealing, just ask them. they would be happy to tell you. except oasis. you might have to pry it out of oasis with whips and tasers.

So just for fun, let's compare the Beatles (we can even limit their output to pre-1965) and, say, the Yardbirds. If you had to name one of these bands plagiarizers and the other borrowers, how would you assign them?

Congrats on not understanding the TS Eliot quote

My point is that the meme itself is just plain dumb, reductive, and serves no other purpose than to make the person who repeats it sound like they have some profound insight into the nature of reality.

welcome to the internet

seems to me that the burden of proof is on you. in what way do any of those NOT borrow liberally from their peers and predecessors

xp

The point isn't which word you use, it's that everyone takes from other artists, but the best ones make something new and/or improved out of it, while the weaker artists sound like they're just copying or "imitating."

You're right; I don't understand the TS Eliot quote. But that's because it's stupid and falls apart under scrutiny, unless you constantly apply ad hoc rationales to when things count as borrowing and when they count as stealing, so that your previous view of certain artists can be maintained under this theory.

your reading of the quote is very uptight and literal

Shakey, I don't dispute that nearly everyone borrows liberally.

"Hard Day's Night" was actually largely cribbed from obscure blues musician Mango Taft's "Bitch of a Week"

how does "Gangnam Style" fit into all of this

well if yr complaint is that Eliot implies some sort of literal grading system I think yeah you are missing the point. To varying degrees, some artists make something interesting out of what they borrow, while others do not. I don't think it's any more complicated than that.

xp

your reading of the quote is very uptight and literal

Maybe-- but then the phrase itself is fairly meaningless as far as "imitating" and "stealing" go. What are the definitions of these words in this sentence? Perhaps someone can explain in a way that doesn't require a circular and/or tautological reading (i.e. "'stealing' is when it's done well, and 'imitating' is when it's done badly).

when i withdraw $80 from the bank after seeing my friend andy do the same, that's imitating. when i withdraw $80 from the bank even though i didn't have $80 in my account, that's stealing. when i spend that $80 on a jake holmes LP at a thrift shop, that's cratedigging. when i import that LP into pro tools and make a new song out of it, that's either sampling, remixing, postmodern or lame, depending on which plug-ins i use.

throw some reverb on that jawn let's get wild

Maybe-- but then the phrase itself is fairly meaningless as far as "imitating" and "stealing" go. What are the definitions of these words in this sentence? Perhaps someone can explain in a way that doesn't require a circular and/or tautological reading (i.e. "'stealing' is when it's done well, and 'imitating' is when it's done badly).

― Poliopolice, Monday, February 10, 2014 4:53 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

that's the whole point of the quote. You're being really dense, it's not analytical philosophy.

lol fcc

i honestly never knew what "tautological" meant but whenever i see it, it seems like a sign ilx is having some debate that's disappeared up its own butt

tautological = disappears up its own butt

disappearing up your own butt = original

disappearing up someone else's butt = borrowing

what if it's a taut butt

they say that butts can be taut. but originality...

i honestly never knew what "tautological" meant but whenever i see it, it seems like a sign ilx is having some debate that's disappeared up its own butt

I don't know about other conversations where this word was pulled out, but I think it's perfectly appropriate here. Here's a helpful paragraph from the wikipedia page on tautology. It seems to perfectly describe the TS Eliot statement.

In rhetoric, a tautology is a series of statements that form an argument, whereby the statements are constructed in such a way that the truth of the proposition is guaranteed or that, by defining a dissimilar or synonymous term in terms of another, the truth of the proposition or explanation cannot be disputed. Consequently, the statement conveys no useful information regardless of its length or complexity making it unfalsifiable.

1) truth of the statement guaranteed? check.
2) words defined in a way that can't be disputed? check.
3) no useful information conveyed? check.
4) unfalsifiable? check.

That, my friends, is a tautology. It is an annoying aphorism that provides absolutely no insights whatsoever.

You are an annoying aphorism that provides absolutely no insights whatsoever

(i'm sorry for the tirade. It is one of these phrases that I've heard repeated so many times in bullshit circumstances that I just snapped)

You are an annoying aphorism that provides absolutely no insights whatsoever

nyah nyah!

this only works as a dismissal of eliot if we assume there is no other rubric by which we can assess the quality of an artist's output (hint: there probably is!)

"Basically I think it diminishes them as people that they didn't give co-writing credits in at least some of these cases. About 10% of them or so are really egregious cases of stealing, e.g. Dazed and Confused. At the same time, Jake Holmes's version kind of sucks compared to Led Zeppelin. So they're diminished as people but not as a kick ass band.

― Burt Stuntin (Hurting 2)"

i think it diminishes them more as people that they were horrible human beings through most of the '70s, myself. fortunately for me when i listen to a record i very seldom stop to wonder what i think of the musicians as human beings.

Jesus christ, has anyone ever escaped the past unscathed? Any artist? Any anyone?

Just Tom Hanks.

*reads about the mud shark incident*

"NOT YOU TOO ZEP! NOT YOU TOOOOOO!!!!!"

josh: william butler yeats got out of lincoln park okay, at least.

in re the OP list -- so there's no plagiarism at all on Houses of the Holy?

"D'yer Mak'er" is a reggae rip-off of "Angel Baby" by Rosie & The Originals. (They even put "Whatever happened to Rosie & The Originals?" on the lyric sheet.)

And, of course, "The Crunge" is a James Brown pastiche.

And, of course, "The Crunge" is a James Brown pastiche.

It doesn't exactly steal from any specific James Brown tracks though, does it?

Can't think of any JB tracks in 5/8 time or whatever it is. Plant does namecheck a coupla Otis Redding song titles though.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-27497950

this one seems particularly lazy. the music is just a basic groove - no huge rip there. just write some lyrics, robert.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SaXA_Hr0CE8&feature=kp

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvKGM93yoCI

Zep actually co-credited this one to Ritchie Valens' mother, who I believe was originally credited on "Ooh! My Head."

oh carry on then led zeppelin
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3FnpaWQJO0

Given that it's literally the only instance in their entire catalog of voluntarily giving co-credit, it's understandable that someone would think otherwise.

I thought "When the Levee Breaks" was co-credited to Memphis Minnie? It is on my LP.

Whoops, you're right, it is!

can't forget Charles Obscure

i'm kind of torn between thinking copyright laws should allow significantly more reuse and thinking that it's shitty to not give credit to artists you're borrowing from. complicated also by the historical power inequities that are at play when white artists steal from black artists.

what's the copyright situation in jamaica? listening to a lot of reggae recently and thinking about such a remix-heavy culture, with "version upon version" of tunes i can only imagine were not created w/ permission from copyright holders, if there were even clear owners to begin with

tealing from the (relatively) rich seems OK and sometimes laudable, stealing from the (relatively) poor feels wrong - but it can't work one way and not the other, can it?

Throwing Randy California's estate a bone seems like the right thing to do - but honestly don't know if he deserves a songwriting credit even though Page almost certainly ripped off Taurus a lil bit.

lol this thread. 2010 was a different time.

I think criticizing them for not crediting it is very reasonable. Criticizing them for not being "original" or something just seems totally ignorant of the entire history of music.

― Burt Stuntin (Hurting 2), Monday, February 10, 2014 2:59 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I'll criticize you for being one of the biggest fucking idiots of all time. The toilet plunger plunged up your fucking afterbirth after your mother sat on it, but somehow you miraculously survived.

― Prince Kajuku (Bill Magill), Monday, February 10, 2014 3:03 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

say what you want about Bill but this is ace

what's the copyright situation in jamaica? listening to a lot of reggae recently and thinking about such a remix-heavy culture, with "version upon version" of tunes i can only imagine were not created w/ permission from copyright holders, if there were even clear owners to begin with

This is a p interesting subject actually. No sheet music industry/history! And thus no solid copyright precedents.

what's the copyright situation in jamaica?

Pretty much non-existent it would seem. Producers routinely took credit for writing songs.

Smiley Culture objected, but.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKlu3A3BBgE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWlc_D7k9yk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsnBT3NofiQ

I like the Stone Roses' "Second Coming" a lot, but "Tears" always puts me off due to its weirdly slavish imitation of the structure and arrangement of "Stairway"

Ok this list totally left off that they lifted "Immigrant Song" from The Osmonds' "Hold Her Tight."

Well that and the theme tune from Get Smart

holy shit how did i not notice that before

Heh I started this thread and it might seem like I hate LZ but I actually love them. They stole from so many artists (mainly Plant and Page) but Bonham and JPJ + production make otherwise thin songs sound massive. It's the credit thing I have an issue with, not the transformation of said songs into something epic.

"Immigrant Song" posts are jokes, I assume? I can't tell who's being serious anymore.

Uh no every time I hear it a few hours later I have Get Smart stuck in my head and it took me years to figure out why

Just in case: "Hold her tight" was 2 years after "Immigrant Song"

Anyway, "Immigrant Song" takes the nick from "Bali Ha'i" South Pacific. True.

Ha, well, it's totally the same rhythm and contour, but the intervals are different (iirc, "Immigrant Song" = up an octave, down a semitone, back up a semitone; "Get Smart" = up a P4, down a semitone, back up a semitone). So it's a cool observation and interesting connection but def not plagiarism. The Osmonds song obv came a couple years after "Immigrant Song". 2xp

Anyway, "Immigrant Song" takes the nick from "Bali Ha'i" South Pacific. True.

Indeed it does. I played that one in the pit only about 680 times, my brain clearly has no concept of where ideas actually come from.

Not plagiarism, but ye Gods does "Thank You" sound like the Small Faces.

Afterglow?

I wasn't thinking in term of an exact track, more of the overall feel of the Small Faces ca. 1968/69, Plant's vocal is very Steve Marriott in places - that verse after the guitar solo!

definitely. also, the hammond.

or whatever sort of organ it is.

A hard organ, I’d wager

"Moon-Face explained about Joe, and how he had gone to the Land of Ice and Snow, where the big white bears lived." -- Enid Blyton (The Enchanted Wood (1939))

and the hot springs blow