This has been discussed here before, but Drake supporters have provided no satisfactory arguments IMO. Please use examples in answering the above questions (thanks in advance).
― , Friday, 12 July 2002 00:00 (10 years ago) Permalink
nevertheless becuz i am perverse i feel peeved that my copy of five leaves left has disappeared: i guess it eloped with metal machine music!!
― mark s, Friday, 12 July 2002 00:00 (10 years ago) Permalink
― Chris, Friday, 12 July 2002 00:00 (10 years ago) Permalink
― DV, Friday, 12 July 2002 00:00 (10 years ago) Permalink
"uniform tone, uniform rhythm and vocal dynamics" -- these are specifically some of Drake's virtues! "What did he bring to the mix that hundreds of others hadn't already?" Who do you have in mind? None of the folk singers of the time sound much like him at all, with the possible exception of Richard Thompson.
― John Darnielle, Friday, 12 July 2002 00:00 (10 years ago) Permalink
anyhow that's what ND gets when he wants it and so my question to you sir is "Who influenced him in this regard"? ;)
― Braces Tower, Friday, 12 July 2002 00:00 (10 years ago) Permalink
― Dr. C, Friday, 12 July 2002 00:00 (10 years ago) Permalink
sounds trif, esp given the inevitable tiny discrep between the twin top e's, but if a string snaps it'll take yr hand off!!
HA HA HA HA HA.
His playing is very 'clean': the playing is lovely. But a large part of his success has to do w/his early, tragic death (no one cared when he was alive) (''promise unfulfilled''). I think John Martyn's 'Solid Air' was FAR FAR better than anything Drake managed but Martyn got old and drinks too much, etc etc.
― Julio Desouza, Friday, 12 July 2002 00:00 (10 years ago) Permalink
the production on those records is awful. a bunch of unrehearsed session musicians trying to accompany a man who obviously knows his own songs pretty well is never a recipe for success. think about all that hokey piano playing and drumming on bryter later. "jazzy"? i don't think so. it sounds like high school kids being a backing band for their music instructor. check out the crappy attempt at a piano track by john cale (no less) on "northern sky". he just screws around and makes mistakes -- you can actually hear him forget the form of the song and jump back into place (like someone shot him a disapproving glance from the recording booth).
the string section work is excellent however, and despite my complaints about poor quality instrumentation, "hazy jane" works really, really well.
even though recording technologies were very primitive at the time, many producers were making stunning records. people make so much about how "intimate" his recordings sound. i contend that's pretty much accidental -- maybe he just liked to sing closer to the microphone?
― fields of salmon, Friday, 12 July 2002 00:00 (10 years ago) Permalink
That said, I think Drake's work conjures a specific mood like few others. His guitar playing, as someone else mentioned, is significantly more accomplished than merely 'technically sound'. But, unfortunately, I also think that the cult that sprang up following his death accounts for much of his fame -- the world seems to love a tragic pop star, especially when flecked with hints of madness (hello, Syd Barrett and Brian Wilson). Couple that with a premature exit, and ::BANG::, you've got all the ingredients to rope in an audience with a morbid fascination and casual attitude towards revisionism.
― Alex in NYC, Friday, 12 July 2002 00:00 (10 years ago) Permalink
― jel --, Friday, 12 July 2002 00:00 (10 years ago) Permalink
but only this once mark s.
― Anas FK, Friday, 12 July 2002 00:00 (10 years ago) Permalink
Rememeber that Nick Drake's parents wanted him to be a computer programmer, check out "Second Drake" and "Tanworth in Arden" (great bootleg CDs of hom recordings) - no one knows who the female singer is I believe and then move on to stuff like Moyshe McStiff and the Tartan Lancers, Vashti Bunyan and all things Boyd under the sun...
― Steve K, Friday, 12 July 2002 00:00 (10 years ago) Permalink
― Andy, Friday, 12 July 2002 00:00 (10 years ago) Permalink
― Sean, Friday, 12 July 2002 00:00 (10 years ago) Permalink
― davidh(owie), Friday, 12 July 2002 00:00 (10 years ago) Permalink
every note he records, even if it's unlistenable crap? And you have such a personal connection to this singer that skipping his latest release feels like missing a
family funeral (or wedding, as the case may be)? Then, you grit your teeth and bear it, hoping that your beloved folk singer gets his head off his pillow. Or you beg
him to call it quits and put you out of your misery.
Nick Drake, please call it quits.
As a poet, you've been around as long as I've been on this earth. You have summer houses in Lancashire. You opened for Paper Lace. You're on a rotting major label.
For a singer that has always relied so heavily on the currency of melancholy, these aren't very encouraging signs. I have become increasingly convinced that folk
singers, like cartons of milk, have expiration dates beyond which consumption is hazardous. Unfortunately, too many folkies keep playing while the mold grows on
their guitars. (OK, so there are exceptions. Those last Fairport Convention and Joni Mitchell records were pretty great. And there are plenty of young folkies who
go stale after one single or album, not to mention those folkies that shouldn't have recorded anything in the first place. So it really doesn't have to do with age.)
Nick Drake, I'd like to let you know that the spores have been festering since 1968, when you released your only good album, 'Five Leaves Left.' Admittedly, had
someone proposed this idea to me in 1968, I would have cried. That was the beginning of high school for me, and not coincidentally, the beginning of my obsession
with you. Having outgrown Donovan and Gordon Lightfoot, I was seduced by your sophistication, your lack of artiness, your appropriately quotable lyrics ("Well
there was a man who lived in a shed/Spent most of his days out of his head"; "In search of a master/In search of a slave") scrawled in the margins of my biology
notes, and, of course, your acoustic guitar whispers. I gobbled up as much of your virtually non-existent discography as I could, gleefully suffering through
unfulfilled collaborations and B-sides, and countless non- appearances. Your appearance on 'Top of the Pops' was, like, the highlight of my life. With a friend, I
created a fan magazine devoted to you. (Please don't ask to see it, it's really embarrassing.) I remained devoted throughout high school; on my senior-yearbook page,
I thanked my family, my friends, and Nick Drake. And why do you think I came to Rangoon to go to college?
But a curious thing happened the summer after my freshman year: You made an album I hated. Not some weird one-off, but a Big Heavily Promoted Album, 'Bryter
Layter.' Faux-beatnik mumbo-jumbo, aimless, tuneless meanderings, and general stagnation made it limp like a three-legged puppy. In your latest press release,
'Bryter Layter' is described as "langorous" (sic). When I look up "languor" in my Webster's, it has a few definitions. The second one may be "a dreamy, lazy mood
or quality," but the first one is "lack of physical or mental energy; listlessness." So maybe you know the record bores even chumps. "Black Eyed Dog," a one-off
single, wasn't so hot either, but it had its gripping moments, and anyway, I was still so caught in the throes of passion at the time, you could do no wrong.
But now you can. I'm afraid my disappointment continues with 'Pink Moon.' The new album isn't terrible, just dull. The quiet parts aren't quiet enough and the pretty
parts aren't pretty enough. Joe Boyd apparently isn't a full-time producer anymore, as he seems to have been too busy launching Maria Muldaur into the stratosphere
to get you off the ground. And all that talk about the influence of the Munich '72 Olympics on the record (quoth the press release: "'Pink Moon' is [ostensibly]
named after the location of Nick Drake's studio. . . . Pink Moon is also the name of the cat who was struck by one of the terrorists bullets...") sure didn't amount to
much beyond the album artwork. Well, the lyrics to "Parasite" might allude to it, but then again, they might not.
You're still a master of suspense, skillfully building and building and building tension. But the foreplay, which once heralded wistful sighs in "Fruit Tree" and
"Cello Song," now leads to nothing but flaccidity and frustration. Many tracks follow your trademark "River Man" verse/chorus/extended- acoustic-finger-pick
formula that may have seemed revolutionary back in 1968, but just sounds predictable 4 years later. And the lyrics? Not one quoteworthy tidbit in the lot, unless
"Counting the cattle as they go by the door/Keeping a carpet that's so thick on the floor" counts. The minor majesty last heard on 'Five Leaves Left"'s "Saturday
Sun" is still MIA. If 'Pink Moon' didn't have the name "Nick Drake" attached to it, nobody would give it a second listen. . . . Well, maybe for "Horn," in which
acoustic guitars simulate a red traffic light, you mutter like you have the measles, and it's all over in just under two minutes. Or for "Which Will," which, like most
of your better songs, possesses a mysterious quality that causes my knees to weaken and my heart to go pitter-patter. But those two songs are tiny ships in a sea of
okayness.
I wish it didn't have to be that way. The bargain bin is already overflowing with efforts by singer-songwriters who have overstayed their welcome. Why not reduce
future clutter? Your place in folk history is certainly secure, what with you basically reinventing the sound of the acoustic guitar and influencing, like, every
somber folkie in the last 4 years. Plus, the time and money that we would have spent on your no-show concerts and new releases could go to the younger, more
introspective vocalists you've always championed and mentored.
Please think about it, Nick Drake. Calling it quits would allow you to spend more time with your grandmother and your goldfish and your poetry collections. Or you could just sit around reflecting on how sad you are. You must be tired after all these years. You deserve a long vacation. But everything I've said here should come as no surprise. After all, aren't you the singer that said, "Day is Done"?
Tristan Lowther, 'Folk Weekly,' 1972
― tristan lowther, Friday, 12 July 2002 00:00 (10 years ago) Permalink
― Chuck eddy, Friday, 12 July 2002 00:00 (10 years ago) Permalink
That's not a defense of Drake-as-artist, though: my defense of Drake- as-artist is that there is a definable sense to all of his material, this distinctive and pervasive quality that sort of comes down to this: he sounds sad. He sounds tired. Even his most sprightly songs and his most "harrowing" ones have the same affect, this great weary laying-down-to-die sigh that strikes really good balances between being read as comforting and being read as deadly. And this worked for him: he embodied it personally and it seemed artless, and on certain recordings it sounds as if everything is trying to counter it but there's just no way through his beaten-down torpor. I find this interesting; plus the songs are consistently good.
(Hahaha anyway who else sings about weasels and their teeth?)
― nabisco%%, Friday, 12 July 2002 00:00 (10 years ago) Permalink
I agree. It's the sad/pretty duality that gets me.
- Sameness, like it or not, is damning. The fact that the Ramones and Wedding Present have followings doesn't mean they aren't overrated (and I would definitely say that of the former).
- By "technically sound" I meant that Drake had a distinctive technique (practice makes perfect), but it seems to have been a one- trick filly. It doesn't develop on Bryter or Pink Moon, and it wasn't used in many different ways to begin with. Hence, a good number of tunes are interchangeable. I suppose there's a revelation waiting for me on the lost album??
- Melancholy as the songs may sound, were they capable of any other moods? Sadness only moves when it is set against something else. I think Drake's vocal range was so cramped and limited that he couldn't help but sound that way, except perhaps on "Fly".
- I'm not an expert on English folk and don't know how he sounded in that context; if I were, I needn't have asked the question. As far as other folk artists, the average Tim Buckley song is way, way outside Drake's capabilities.
What one poster said about "potential" points, I think, to Drake's principal appeal. He wasn't brilliant, but he sounded capable of becoming so if he ever got through his depression and developed a real vision.
― Sean Carruthers, Friday, 12 July 2002 00:00 (10 years ago) Permalink
― your null fame, Friday, 12 July 2002 00:00 (10 years ago) Permalink
You realize your "sameness is bad" argument can be used to dismiss virtually every single act in the history of music?
― Justyn Dillingham, Friday, 12 July 2002 00:00 (10 years ago) Permalink
proof: [x] records a song + it is good + all [x]'s songs are the same = all their songs are good!!
how do you do that then?
''but no one owes you an "argument" as to why nick drake is worth listening to - either you like him or you don't, and there's no point in assuming there's some objective quality that a nick drake fan can make you understand''
there's no point discussing so...just what is the fucking point of a discussion board then?
For instance i liked the fact that someone earlier in the thread was hearing drones in Nick's playing. Though I didn't hear it, it made me look at him from a different angle.
And of course: i think yr dislike of Fushitsusha is faked to prove a point so there's no need for me to answer it.
The comment about unsatisfactory arguments stands. Saying Drake is beautiful, haunting or simply a genius tells me nothing about him in relation to other musicians, yet that is how nearly all defenses of him proceed. To be fair, the accusations (on ILM, at least) are often relatively vague themselves. I tried to change that here, and if it has improved the quality of the responses, I haven't wasted my time.
Re: sameness - yes, from a certain viewpoint, all artistic endeavors are the same. Provided you specify the universe of discourse, however, it is quite possible to call some bodies of work more uniform than others. My parameters in this case are popular rock and folk music from the 1960s onward. Yours?
*Which is intentionally hyperbolic instead of descriptive.
― FUCK OFF, Friday, 12 July 2002 00:00 (10 years ago) Permalink
― your null fame, Saturday, 13 July 2002 00:00 (10 years ago) Permalink
Advanced musicology isn't required to see the near-identity of "Northern Sky" and "From the Morning", "Chime of a City Clock" and "Parasite", the recurrence of melodic passages, the mumbled cadences that crop up in nearly every song, etc. I could go back and make a long list of examples, but your words don't encourage me:
you won't be able to persuade me to the contrary about nick drake, fushitsusha or any other artist using objective criteria
If uniformity, repetition, and relative complexity aren't things you can be persuaded to see, about which you find argument pointless, then I doubt I could convince you your face was symmetrical if you didn't already believe it.
people tend to relate to music emotionally so "haunting, beautiful or simply a genius" are all things you're more likely to hear than "well, his fingerpicking style is derived from x, his songwriting is comparable to y," or an evaluation against his contemporaries.
"Beautiful" and "haunting" are useless as objective bases, and rarely show up in aesthetics. Taste is another matter, but--again--I have never been talking about tastes. You recognize the difference between liking and admiring something, don't you? Between "relating to" Drake and thinking critically about his work? Not wanting to do the latter is fine, but this thread shouldn't concern you if that's the case.
― , Saturday, 13 July 2002 00:00 (10 years ago) Permalink
― Christine "Green Leafy" Indigo, Saturday, 13 July 2002 00:00 (10 years ago) Permalink
I'm not a good (or patient) writer,but I'll try and make one point. Art of all kinds can be analysed and discussed with many different criteria. An artist's techniques can be picked apart endlessly; this is fine and good. But if the ultimate purpose of (some if not most) art is to arouse emotion, evoke feelings, then saying you like something is beautiful is reason enough. What separates Drake from the other singer-songwriters of his day may indeed be a quality that we can pin down. However when discussing art it sometimes happens that this quality cannot be pinned down. If all you're after is cold hard logic, this answer is obviously unsatisfactory. If you understand that an emotional response, however difficult to describe, is sometimes not only an adequate response to art, but often the best one, then this kind of answer is adequate, in fact may be the only one necessary.
The very name of this bulletin board suggests where I'm coming from. Yes we all like talking about music... to the extent that disinterested parties would think us nuts. But if we love music, at the end of the day it should be understood that after all the technical discussion has died down, love is a mysterious emotion that needs no explanation. I hope you understand this.
― Sean, Saturday, 13 July 2002 00:00 (10 years ago) Permalink
I grinned manically when i read that. And coupled w/the fact that you didn't have the guts to tell us who you are. From a coward like you, I take the above as a compliment.
― Julio Desouza, Saturday, 13 July 2002 00:00 (10 years ago) Permalink
I'd agree w/ that but also in the heat of a discussion is sometimes very difficult to find the words to put across to someone who is of a different opinion, of why you love a singer/band. But it's nice to think that we can have a go at doing such a thing.
― gareth, Saturday, 13 July 2002 00:00 (10 years ago) Permalink
No question. However, this rules out nuance and aesthetic evaluation, on which all productive exchanges depend. I don't care that people like (=have a certain emotional response to) Nick Drake. I care that people respect him and raise him above others who managed (by my evaluation, which can be debated) much greater complexity and variation.
Consider that I have frequently felt the darkness and sadness in Drake's work. But in a short time, I saw it was the languid vocals inciting this feeling, and the fact that he almost never sang differently made me suspect that they were simply an involuntary feature, like the tolling of a bell. On the guitar, he had the droning technique mentioned earlier, but it was never expanded on, never used to different ends.
I hate to say it, but you and "your null fame" should examine your own standards here. Do you believe that, because music makes you feel a certain way, it must have a given aesthetic quality? Do you think it's impossible to be touched by something and recognize its limitations? Is anyone who rejects Nick Drake's genius merely a "wet blanket"?
You've probably stopped reading if you find me as "objectivist" as the other poster did. My fault, then, for supposing either of you were interested in objective discussion.
I phrased that as though I knew the answer, which I don't. I was hoping people who know a lot about '60s folk could agree or disagree.
That said, I find he resembles contemporary pop singers (it's most obvious on Bryter) more than recognized, and that people on whom he is said to be an influence (B&S, perhaps) have more vocal styles and melodies in their bag. Also, as I imply elsewhere in the thread, Tim Buckley was infinitely more versatile even if he never attempted the exact picking style or sparse arrangements of Drake.
By this logic Bach is overrated because of Mendelssohn, etc.
― The Actual Mr. Jones, Saturday, 13 July 2002 00:00 (10 years ago) Permalink
The argument that the people he influenced have surpassed him isn't the strongest, I admit. Although a musician wouldn't get too far today just by copying Drake's formulas. If you've been following this thread, you'll see that most of my criticisms are based on the patterns I perceive in Drake, rather than similarities to those of his peers.
Oh, and read my recent post. It sounds like you're letting your emotional attachments get in the way of addressing the various points made.
A musician wouldn't get too far today just by copying J Martyn's formulas either. This is another measure of absolute zero.
It so happens I'm not particularly attached to Drake at all (although the idea of Five Leaves/MMM REALLY eloping sounds pretty great to me). Still, I'm infinitely more convinced by the various eloquent attempts to answer your question above than by your continued refusal to even accept them as possibly legitimate. Re-read the thread yourself. The subjectivity on your end burns disastrously bright, I'm afraid. As well it should. Unless taking art into the vacuum-realm of perfect mathematics is really your idea of a good time.
(in which case at least three cases of logical acrobatics up-thread demand your attention immediately and urgently)
(p.s. vacuums are very incredibly lonely though. If you let yourself you might pick up a thing or two of interest here among the problematic sentient folk. I have.) xo,
As well it should. Unless taking art into the vacuum-realm of perfect mathematics is really your idea of a good time.
If you expect me to attend to those 3+ cases, kindly point them out. (I'll be gone for a bit, but I'll resolve them all in due course.)
Hint 1: Your response to me alone (infering "emotional attachments" from the statement "By this logic Bach is overrated because of Mendelssohn, etc.") = ad hominem, a fallacy of opposition, and jumping to conclusions. It gets worse from there up.
Hint 2: Plato, for a start. "Aesthetic evaluation" my sweet aunt Edna.
Hint 3: The answer to the thread-question = "Because".
― The Actual Mr. Jones, Sunday, 14 July 2002 00:00 (10 years ago) Permalink
I suspected that (note "it sounds like") because of the post that followed. But failing to turn off italics was probably the reason you wrote it.
This doesn't imply a universal aesthetic, but any at all. The point of criticism is to discover what aesthetics inform our standards, what our basic assumptions are, and what information we may be missing. It helps us to see why evaluations of a given artist can differ. Unless you either love or hate the music you hear (i.e., have a universally warm or cold response to it), I don't see what's wrong with this pursuit.
Stop me if I've misunderstood this one, but I clarified the "why" several posts up, in case it was unclear (look for it in boldface). Many answers--fingering style, voice, early death, sense of wasted promise--have been valid, although they don't change my own estimation of Drake for reasons I have tried (maybe unsuccessfully) to explain.
― , Sunday, 14 July 2002 00:00 (10 years ago) Permalink
― alex in mainhattan, Monday, 15 July 2002 00:00 (10 years ago) Permalink
― Tom, Monday, 15 July 2002 00:00 (10 years ago) Permalink
― dave q, Monday, 15 July 2002 00:00 (10 years ago) Permalink
― Chris, Monday, 15 July 2002 00:00 (10 years ago) Permalink
― sundar subramanian, Monday, 15 July 2002 00:00 (10 years ago) Permalink
― g, Monday, 15 July 2002 00:00 (10 years ago) Permalink
I think in the end it all boils down to if you like or don't like an artist. The sameness argument concerning Nick Drake is completely relative and subjective.
I have to disagree. First, it's possible to like something and hold it in no great esteem (I gather several people have this relationship to the Strokes). One can also be impressed--I dare say bowled over-- by music one doesn't care to hear that often, if ever (my feelings toward Loveless, many others' toward "noise"-based music). The conflation of admiration and taste for something is common, but fallacious as a principle.
Second, as I said, once the parameters have been established, repetition is one of the few features that can be objectively agreed on. I'm confused by people's disagreement here: if a musical piece consists of a rhythmically-sounded tuning fork, is its uniformity "subjective"? My contention about Drake will be flat-out wrong if, in the songs and passages I find similar, Drake's playing varies in a good number of ways that I've failed to notice.
Drake's three studio albums are totally different. Pink Moon is bleak as bleak can be, Five Leaves Left is wistfully beautiful, Bryter Later a little overproduced and almost poppy. If you don't hear any differences in the songs, amal25 it just means that you didn't get into them, you were put off before. I think to hear the nuances in Drake's music you have to like it.
See above. This need never be true in music or any other art form. It's not encouraging that those who like, and have presumably lent attention to Drake's work, haven't pointed out the differences between the songs I compared earlier (aside from the production).
The limitations of the voice can not be used as an argument I think. Why should someone with a more versatile voice like Jeff Buckley be a more accomplished artist? All right Buckley would probably have been a better opera singer with all his mannerisms but that is totally irrelevant. Do you also use Ian Curtis and Lou Reed's limited voices as arguments against JD and VU?
I don't think Reed's vocal styles--or Curtis', from the little I know- -are so limited, at least compared to those of Drake. And I'm basing the claim of versatility on what I've heard these artists do, not on what they seem capable of.
― , Monday, 15 July 2002 00:00 (10 years ago) Permalink
I don't recall saying this, but my search for subtle differences within Drake's songs has turned up very little. Yes, it may be that I need to look harder.
but nuance is exactly what I find in his songs: "Parasite", "Northern Sky", "Chime Of A City Clock" may be very similar musically and even thematically but perhaps the value in them is in contemplating the small differences that there are (and the differences in mood in these songs strike me as not so small - now it may be that you dismiss 'mood' as an appropriate subject for critical consideration, but I don't agree).
The lyrical mood does differ (I assume you weren't implying differences in production). McDonald's article, which I read on one poster's recommendation, has made me respect Drake more as a lyricist, but hasn't dispelled the feeling that he wanted for musical ideas.
This misses the point again, amal25. What is being called into question is your continued insistence that repetition (or "uniform tone, uniform rhythm and vocal dynamics" for that matter) is "objectively" a fault.
My contention about Drake will be flat-out wrong if, in the songs and passages I find similar, Drake's playing varies in a good number of ways that I've failed to notice.
No. Your contention was flat-out wrong the second someone said they liked repetition.
― The Actual Mr. Jones, Monday, 15 July 2002 00:00 (10 years ago) Permalink
(In the last three days, have concluded N Drake is the most terrific genius of all time ever, just to spite objectivity)
― The Actual Mr. Jones, Thursday, 18 July 2002 00:00 (10 years ago) Permalink
At no point have I "insisted" that it should be seen as a fault. I have presented this standard as my own and supposed that it will be shared to some degree by some of the people reading. And so it seems to be; many responses have offered evidence contrary to my claims of sameness or simply dismissed them, but two at most have attacked the values inherent in them. Alex was doing the former (as was Tom, despite his initial wavering), and so I fail to see how my response misses the point.
Subjective approval doesn't counter subjective opposition. You have to ignore or shine on a lot of what I've written, including responses to your posts, to say that I have been forcing my standards on people who don't share them. Only the "sameness is damning" comment, which should have been introduced by "for me" (but which was appropriate in context), suggests this.
― , Thursday, 18 July 2002 00:00 (10 years ago) Permalink
― Pulpo, Friday, 19 July 2002 00:00 (10 years ago) Permalink
― mark s, Friday, 19 July 2002 00:00 (10 years ago) Permalink
― Ned Raggett, Friday, 19 July 2002 00:00 (10 years ago) Permalink
― nabisco%%, Friday, 19 July 2002 00:00 (10 years ago) Permalink
― Tracer Hand, Friday, 19 July 2002 00:00 (10 years ago) Permalink
― amateurist (amateurist), Friday, 27 June 2003 05:40 (9 years ago) Permalink
― Fabrice (Fabfunk), Friday, 27 June 2003 07:40 (9 years ago) Permalink
― Chris V. (Chris V), Friday, 27 June 2003 10:36 (9 years ago) Permalink
fwiw I love all of Five Leaves Left but onyl sporadic tracks from his other two LPs and the TONR set.
― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Friday, 27 June 2003 11:18 (9 years ago) Permalink
― Chris V. (Chris V), Friday, 27 June 2003 11:34 (9 years ago) Permalink
― Curt1s St3ph3ns, Friday, 27 June 2003 17:20 (9 years ago) Permalink
― Chris V. (Chris V), Friday, 27 June 2003 17:21 (9 years ago) Permalink
So forget this cruel world Where I belong I'll just sit and wait And sing my song. And if one day you should see me in the crowd Lend a hand and lift me To your place in the cloud.
beautiful song.
― Curt1s Stephens, Friday, 1 June 2007 02:27 (5 years ago) Permalink
Drake is lovely and his production is so suprisingly clear, a friend of mine was quite suprised when I told him it was 60s music I was playing. I wish I had more of his stuff. Or hell, any.
― Trayce, Friday, 1 June 2007 02:53 (5 years ago) Permalink
quite a bit of hatred on this thread.
I like him. I liked him more about 5 years ago when I knew less about music.
― Drooone, Friday, 1 June 2007 03:01 (5 years ago) Permalink
Pink Moon is one of those albums that I can't stop listening to once I've started. Whenever I play a track it's like "if you give a mouse a cookie..."
― Curt1s Stephens, Friday, 1 June 2007 03:10 (5 years ago) Permalink
I agree, Pink Moon is mind blowing.
― Drooone, Friday, 1 June 2007 03:13 (5 years ago) Permalink
I can't play Which Will without playing Horn, and I can't play Horn without playing Things Behind The Sun, and I can't play Things Behind The Sun without playing Know...
― Curt1s Stephens, Friday, 1 June 2007 03:15 (5 years ago) Permalink
I've always had a lot of love for Things Behind The Sun.
― Drooone, Friday, 1 June 2007 03:16 (5 years ago) Permalink
Have you heard Sebadoh's cover of Pink Moon? It blows me away in a similar way that Dinosaur Jr doing "Just Like Heaven" does, its like "haha omg", they totally MURDER the "pink, pink, pink, pink" bit with screaming, somehow it kind of works.
― Trayce, Friday, 1 June 2007 03:19 (5 years ago) Permalink
Anyway, his lyrics are just awesome, I have to say that much. "Northern Sky" is beautiful.
― Trayce, Friday, 1 June 2007 03:24 (5 years ago) Permalink
Few singers can get away with doing that excessively tender and exposed thing all the time, but he's one of them. It's unfortunate that he's inspired so many others to attempt the same thing.
― Hurting 2, Friday, 1 June 2007 03:37 (5 years ago) Permalink
lol
― Drooone, Friday, 1 June 2007 03:39 (5 years ago) Permalink
I'd never really heard of him until a month or so ago, when I went to hear Joe Boyd read. Just today, I listened to Bryter Layter. Tomorrow, Pink Moon.
― Jaq, Friday, 1 June 2007 03:44 (5 years ago) Permalink
i'm jealous! have fun
― tremendoid, Friday, 1 June 2007 03:59 (5 years ago) Permalink
I lurve Pink Moon.
― St3ve Go1db3rg, Friday, 1 June 2007 05:04 (5 years ago) Permalink
sebadoh > nick drake
― stephen, Friday, 1 June 2007 05:15 (5 years ago) Permalink
sebadoh is shit. anyway this thread is for nick drake lo-- oh right.
― tremendoid, Friday, 1 June 2007 05:28 (5 years ago) Permalink
Few singers can get away with doing that excessively tender and exposed thing all the time, but he's one of them.
And so is Mark Kozelek.
― Trayce, Friday, 1 June 2007 05:33 (5 years ago) Permalink
A 'new' album up soon, right?
― Mark G, Friday, 1 June 2007 08:35 (5 years ago) Permalink
And I thought the Pistols were champions in the "horse, dead, flogging of" category.
― Marcello Carlin, Friday, 1 June 2007 08:50 (5 years ago) Permalink
They aint even in the southern prem league!
Hendrix, Marley, etc.
― Mark G, Friday, 1 June 2007 08:56 (5 years ago) Permalink
although..
― Mark G, Friday, 1 June 2007 09:00 (5 years ago) Permalink
Tupac, dudes (xp)
― Tom D., Friday, 1 June 2007 09:01 (5 years ago) Permalink
I stand by what I said upthread, in that I love FFL pretty much whole, but only find other songs beyond that really compelling. I like Drake, and loved him, possibly, for a while when I was about 17.
Consistency or un-variation I don't see as a problem at all; in fact an artist exploring their aesthetic over a number of years and records is often very compelling.
Possibly the crux of Drake for me, and the moment which proves he's not just an emotional one-trick pony, is the miraculous, soaring, joyous (to me, at any rate) acoustic guitar solo which sears through the centre of "Black Eyed Dog"; possibly it's Drake's saddest tune, his most defeated - he certainly sounds to me as if he's crying as he sings it - and then this solo tears the song in two, elevates the mood incredibly, exposes blue skies where there was really only black before.
― Scik Mouthy, Friday, 1 June 2007 09:15 (5 years ago) Permalink
Damn Nick you have to stop making me scramble to find songs you keep describing like this.
― Trayce, Friday, 1 June 2007 09:24 (5 years ago) Permalink
IT'S MY JOB, INNIT. Sort of.
― Scik Mouthy, Friday, 1 June 2007 09:27 (5 years ago) Permalink
In my view, the great thing about Nick Drake is that he wrote these beautiful melodic songs, with very pastoral arrangements, no rough edges and a musical style that would have been considered "twee" hadn't it been for the lyrics and his tragic life history. And yet, this "twee" music has received a lot of critical acclaim. Which is great, but other "twee" artists should have just as much love too :)
― Geir Hongro, Friday, 1 June 2007 11:34 (5 years ago) Permalink
His lyrics are often pretty twee
― Tom D., Friday, 1 June 2007 11:35 (5 years ago) Permalink
"Fwuit Twee" for instance (sorry)
Unlike his sister in There's A Girl In My Soup...
― Marcello Carlin, Friday, 1 June 2007 12:30 (5 years ago) Permalink
Who would have thought Nick Drake's sister would end up as Kelly Monteith's wife?
― Tom D., Friday, 1 June 2007 12:31 (5 years ago) Permalink
wait, Gabrielle Drake is Nick Drake's sister? I didn't know that...
― Roz, Friday, 1 June 2007 12:37 (5 years ago) Permalink
Same hairstyle:
― Tom D., Friday, 1 June 2007 12:41 (5 years ago) Permalink
The chin is the giveaway!
^^ I want this outfit
― Curt1s Stephens, Friday, 1 June 2007 12:42 (5 years ago) Permalink
You want to wear a rug?
― Trayce, Friday, 1 June 2007 12:46 (5 years ago) Permalink
short answer: yes
― Curt1s Stephens, Friday, 1 June 2007 12:48 (5 years ago) Permalink
There should be more carpet sample inspired musicians out there.
― Trayce, Friday, 1 June 2007 12:51 (5 years ago) Permalink
Just walk into any curtains shop and you will find clothes like that.
― Geir Hongro, Friday, 1 June 2007 12:52 (5 years ago) Permalink
there's a weak pun to be made here somewhere...
― Roz, Friday, 1 June 2007 12:55 (5 years ago) Permalink
Pull yourself together, man
― Tom D., Friday, 1 June 2007 12:57 (5 years ago) Permalink
Yup, there was.
-- Geir Hongro, Friday, 1 June 2007 11:34 (1 hour ago) Bookmark Link
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pink moon is far from twee. So you are half right.
― Mark G, Friday, 1 June 2007 13:04 (5 years ago) Permalink
That was precisely the same rug in which his sister concealed Ronnie Corbett in No Sex Please We're British.
― Marcello Carlin, Friday, 1 June 2007 13:09 (5 years ago) Permalink
Seriously, y'all have to hear Sebadoh murdering "Pink Moon", its kind of awesome in the gall it has.
― Trayce, Friday, 1 June 2007 13:09 (5 years ago) Permalink
I can wait another decade or six.
― Marcello Carlin, Friday, 1 June 2007 13:11 (5 years ago) Permalink
Pft, I suppose you dont like Dino's cover of "Just Like Heaven" either?
― Trayce, Friday, 1 June 2007 13:13 (5 years ago) Permalink
i certainly don't.. sorry. i haven't heard the sebadoh pink moon though
― electricsound, Friday, 1 June 2007 13:15 (5 years ago) Permalink
Well you'd hate it I reckon, in that case Jim :)
― Trayce, Friday, 1 June 2007 13:16 (5 years ago) Permalink
In fairness, it isnt particularly amazingly great, the verses are nice but the chorus is FUCKED UP.
― Trayce, Friday, 1 June 2007 13:18 (5 years ago) Permalink
Dean Martin did "Just Like Heaven"????? Why didn't Nick Tosches tell me this?
― Marcello Carlin, Friday, 1 June 2007 13:31 (5 years ago) Permalink
I think a Dean Martin album of Nick Drake covers would have saved several lives.
― Marcello Carlin, Friday, 1 June 2007 13:32 (5 years ago) Permalink
Can I mention Elton John now?
― Tom D., Friday, 1 June 2007 13:33 (5 years ago) Permalink
Who would have thought that Nick Drake's best mate at school would have had a worldwide number one in the eighties about his wife when he was actually having it off with the nanny?
― Marcello Carlin, Friday, 1 June 2007 13:52 (5 years ago) Permalink
Me for a kick-off!
― Mark G, Friday, 1 June 2007 13:53 (5 years ago) Permalink
That's the one Nick Drake album I don't like.
― Geir Hongro, Friday, 1 June 2007 23:31 (5 years ago) Permalink
Bryter Later is entwined with perfect early summer evenings over looking the Calverley Grounds at Tunbridge Wells in 2003. Perfect mesh of music, time and place.
― acrobat, Saturday, 2 June 2007 01:02 (5 years ago) Permalink
I've not listened to it in about 5 years, but I seem to remember Pink Moon being perfect if I was in good mood and just as perfect if I was sad about something.
So yeah, it's probably twee.
― Gukbe, Saturday, 2 June 2007 01:12 (5 years ago) Permalink
Why is his music "twee"? Is all folk music twee?
― Bimble, Saturday, 2 June 2007 01:44 (5 years ago) Permalink
Please. Nick Drake is not twee.
― St3ve Go1db3rg, Saturday, 2 June 2007 01:47 (5 years ago) Permalink
is this a u.k - u.s divide? i know twee is strictly pejorative over there and isn't over here (as much), though I don't think it qualifies as twee either way personally a case could be made.
― tremendoid, Saturday, 2 June 2007 02:05 (5 years ago) Permalink
Wait, where do you think twee is strictly pejorative? I often think it's funny the way twee is sometimes used as a favorable or neutral descriptor and other times as a sneering insult, depending on who says it and how it's said.
― St3ve Go1db3rg, Saturday, 2 June 2007 02:27 (5 years ago) Permalink
the u.k., i thought. My impression is that it didn't have any connotation over here (u.s.), so when people called sarah stuff or whatever 'twee' we just picked it up and ran with it as a neutral quasi-genre descriptor. heh I've read 'twee as fuck' more than once, i have no excuse to be so fuzzy about such things.
― tremendoid, Saturday, 2 June 2007 02:44 (5 years ago) Permalink
xpost
I think of "twee" as being specifically associated with Sarah records, bands like Heavenly, Talulah Gosh or I guess even Belle & Sebastian. I normally don't like that kind of music, so to me it is pejorative. I don't think it has much to do with nationality, really.
Now is the time to confess, though, that what I dread even more than the term "twee" applied to Nick Drake is "emo". I do believe there are special torture chambers in hell for people who would call him that.
― Bimble, Saturday, 2 June 2007 02:50 (5 years ago) Permalink
I didn't read the older parts of this thread earlie, but this:
No one wants Drake to turn out to the crowd and trying different things: his entire appeal is the way he stands in the corner with his back to you, clutching his guitar and mumbling mournfully. The whole point of listening is to somehow squeeze yourself between him and the corner walls, where you can hear him.
Is amazing. Nabisco, that is awesome, and spot on.
― Trayce, Saturday, 2 June 2007 02:52 (5 years ago) Permalink
Yeah, I confess I'm a Nabsico fan, too. Amen.
― Bimble, Saturday, 2 June 2007 03:42 (5 years ago) Permalink
So leave your house come into my shed Please stop my world from raining through my head
Sigh. So lovely. So sad. So right.
― Trayce, Saturday, 2 June 2007 03:48 (5 years ago) Permalink
I think the first time I heard "Road" off of Pink Moon was my awakening to quite how beautiful and powerful music can be.
Pretty much responsible for everything I've loved about music ever since.
― Uptoeleven, Saturday, 2 June 2007 13:47 (5 years ago) Permalink
"Road" is oftentimes my favorite Nick Drake song and is also proof that Nick Drake has the most incredible fingerpicking technique of anyone ever.
― Curt1s Stephens, Saturday, 2 June 2007 21:23 (5 years ago) Permalink
I can't make my thumb move like that.
― Curt1s Stephens, Saturday, 2 June 2007 21:25 (5 years ago) Permalink
"Road" is definitely some super badass guitar playing.
As for twee, the origin of the term as a musical descriptor is definitely British, but I've heard it used in the US.
I lived in England for a bit but I'm not sure I ever actually heard anyone say it over there. I believe that it may have started as a strictly pejorative term, but then so did "baroque." I think it's all about context, really. Some people love twee and some people hate it. I just think it's funny the way both groups seem to use the term without explanation and expect their audience to know whether they mean it as a compliment or an insult.
― St3ve Go1db3rg, Saturday, 2 June 2007 22:43 (5 years ago) Permalink
Dave Grohl, Heath Ledger and Norah Jones: why?
― Yehudi Menudo (NickB), Tuesday, 20 January 2009 12:06 (4 years ago) Permalink
A forthcoming album celebrating the cult singer-songwriter will include controversial footage of the late Heath Ledger simulating suicide to Drake's Black Eyed Dog. Nice!
― Yehudi Menudo (NickB), Tuesday, 20 January 2009 12:07 (4 years ago) Permalink
I'm sure the Drake family will be delighted, they've never accepted his death was suicide - but who cares what they think anyway, eh?
― Vicious Cop Kills Gentle Fool (Tom D.), Tuesday, 20 January 2009 12:11 (4 years ago) Permalink
that footage in question is pretty cool. very sombre.
― Charlie Howard, Tuesday, 20 January 2009 12:12 (4 years ago) Permalink
NJones did "Day is done" as the b-side to Nick Drake's own "River Man" single.
― Mark G, Tuesday, 20 January 2009 12:15 (4 years ago) Permalink
David Schulhof, co-founder and co-CEO of EverGreen Copyrights, made the announcement at the MidemNet conference this week. His company controls the US rights for several deceased artists, including Drake and Roy Orbison. (...)"Fans are willing to pay for (this) kind of product," Schulhof said, speaking of the tribute.
"Fans are willing to pay for (this) kind of product," Schulhof said, speaking of the tribute.
Blimey, tell it like it is or wot?
― Mark G, Tuesday, 20 January 2009 12:17 (4 years ago) Permalink
Saw the thread revive, read the exchanges at inception, and thought of the solo in Black Eyed Dog and then realised I'd already posted about it, so, here it is again:
― Scik Mouthy, Friday, June 1, 2007 10:15 AM (1 year ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink
― Sickamous Mouthall (Scik Mouthy), Tuesday, 20 January 2009 12:40 (4 years ago) Permalink
Pearl Jam's Eddie Vedder
― straightola, Tuesday, 20 January 2009 12:41 (4 years ago) Permalink
A forthcoming album celebrating the cult singer-songwriter will include controversial footage of the late Heath Ledger simulating suicide to Drake's Black Eyed Dog
WTF! that's the strangest thing to put on a tribute album ever.
― Ludo, Tuesday, 20 January 2009 12:52 (4 years ago) Permalink
Are there any other songs that Ledger was filmed simulating suicide to? Is this something he did often?
― Mark, Tuesday, 20 January 2009 13:50 (4 years ago) Permalink
― "Two Ears" Laybelle (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 20 January 2009 13:53 (4 years ago) Permalink
What was "the Ledge" listening to when he died, eh? Eh?
― Sickamous Mouthall (Scik Mouthy), Tuesday, 20 January 2009 13:56 (4 years ago) Permalink
Meet On The Ledge?
― Yehudi Menudo (NickB), Tuesday, 20 January 2009 13:58 (4 years ago) Permalink
Fleetwood Mac, "The Ledge"
― Vicious Cop Kills Gentle Fool (Tom D.), Tuesday, 20 January 2009 14:00 (4 years ago) Permalink
― Vicious Cop Kills Gentle Fool (Tom D.), Tuesday, 20 January 2009 14:04 (4 years ago) Permalink
"Close to the Ledit"
― Mark G, Tuesday, 20 January 2009 14:05 (4 years ago) Permalink
"Hey, what'd you do last night?"
"We decided to stay home-- wound up watching footage of Heath Ledger simulating suicide to Nick Drake's 'Black Eyed Dog'."
― Mark, Tuesday, 20 January 2009 14:21 (4 years ago) Permalink
"Cool, what a nice way to celebrate the memory of Nick"
― Vicious Cop Kills Gentle Fool (Tom D.), Tuesday, 20 January 2009 14:23 (4 years ago) Permalink
I'm holding out for:
Heath Ledger Simulating Suicide to the Music of Nick Drake: The Criterion Collection
― Mark, Tuesday, 20 January 2009 14:31 (4 years ago) Permalink
yeah i was WEIRDED out by the news (i wrote that gruniad article) but uh edited out all my joke-joke-jokes after reflection on the whole er suicide angle.
― sean gramophone, Tuesday, 20 January 2009 14:56 (4 years ago) Permalink
There isn't anything about this thing that doesn't make me want to puke.
― I am a vampire, therefore I take garlic pills (Bimble), Tuesday, 20 January 2009 21:03 (4 years ago) Permalink
words fail me, what a sick world.
― alex in mainhattan, Tuesday, 20 January 2009 21:40 (4 years ago) Permalink
I was expecting farcial slapstick.
― ^likes black girls (HI DERE), Tuesday, 20 January 2009 21:41 (4 years ago) Permalink
a bunch of unrehearsed session musicians trying to accompany a man who obviously knows his own songs pretty well is never a recipe for success
― If Timi Yuro would be still alive, most other singers could shut up, Tuesday, 20 January 2009 22:03 (4 years ago) Permalink
― tylerw, Friday, 11 May 2012 22:45 (1 year ago) Permalink
cool!
― Bandersnatch Cumberbund (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Friday, 11 May 2012 22:50 (1 year ago) Permalink
it is going to rock SO HARD. actually i think there's some recordings of her singing in one of the drake documentaries, and it's pretty nice stuff, you can tell that she influenced nick quite a bit. sort of seems like releasing something by the dude's mom would be the ultimate in barrel scraping, but i am curious to hear it.
― tylerw, Friday, 11 May 2012 22:53 (1 year ago) Permalink
ian macdonald's essay on drake is classic.
― (The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Friday, 11 May 2012 22:55 (1 year ago) Permalink
oh here's a radio show about her: http://www.wnyc.org/shows/spinning/2012/apr/22/
― tylerw, Friday, 11 May 2012 22:59 (1 year ago) Permalink
There's a couple of tracks on "Family Tree" she sings on.
― Mark G, Friday, 11 May 2012 23:00 (1 year ago) Permalink
This is the missing link in the Nick Drake Story” (Joe Boyd)
We are pleased to announce the release of a privately-pressed CD plus a collection of poems by Molly Drake, Nick Drake’s mother. Some of you will be aware of her songs having watched the film A Skin Too Few or having bought the compilation album Family Tree. It is due the response from this exposure that we feel the time may be right to release some more material. Molly Drake wrote and performed songs just for herself, her friends and her family. She did not seek publication for them or for her poems, which seem to have been deeply personal observations. Fortunately, for us, her husband made amateur recordings of her songs on tapes that have lain dormant for 60 years.
The sound quality of the recordings reflects their home-made nature as well as the age of the magnetic tape. Though they have been repaired and made listenable to, the recordings have not been over-restored, since we feel that the sound quality is an integral part of this first experience of Molly’s music. The entire recording was engineered by John Wood, Nick Drake’s friend, engineer and co-producer of Pink Moon.
The 19 songs include How Wild The Wind Blows, I Remember, Poor Mum and Do You Ever Remember?
The CD comes with a 70 page booklet containing 45 poems housed in a card portfolio.
This initial edition is only available here:
www.alimentation.cc/nick_drake/cds/molly-drake.html
― Lee626, Friday, 11 May 2012 23:11 (1 year ago) Permalink
http://www.alimentation.cc/nick_drake/cds/molly-drake.html
― Mark G, Friday, 11 May 2012 23:19 (1 year ago) Permalink