Hommophobia inna dancehall style...

Buju Banton has had some great conscious tunes, but does that erase the fact that he did the infamous "Boom Bye Bye" in which he sings "Boom bye bye inna batty boy head"?

Thinking about this .. you don't stop listening to the music you like. But you frame it.

You may decide that you can't, in conscience, give money to *artists* who hold these views. And therefore make it a point of principle only to pirate it.

Secondly, you are careful how you play the music to others. When you recommend or play it to friends, you point out the issue with the music. So if they choose not to listen they have the chance. And everyone knows you aren't going round spreading the memes because you agree, or don't care.

When playing out in public I guess, adopt the same policy, but more so. Really emphasize that this is a great tune BUT it's homophobic. And that this is a real problem with this genre of music. I occasionally play tunes on Campus Radio so I can do this. If I was DJing in a club or making a mixtape for a party where putting this kind of frame wasn't possible, I probably *wouldn't* play or include the tune.

With this policy I can still listen to and promote music, even if I find its message objectionable. But I am never actually pushing the message itself. If anything I use the music to signal my opposition to he message.

This statement is so stupid. Please don't kill me, beat me, fire me, discriminate against me or whatever is not a MORAL STANDARD invented by HUMAN RIGHTS LAWYERS. I think holding people to the idiotic 2000+ year old moral standards of these moronic repressive body denying religions is what bears examination.

discuss...

No one should be exposed to the Bible because it is FILLED with bad ideas.

Are there dancehall lyrics pertaining to lesbians? or to jews for that matter?

I don't really know enough about dancehall to parse which of those forms seems to be the dominant one. And I'm certainly not trying to excuse the latter, just pointing out that it's a hugely different proposition.

look at cultures all over the world that don't use the bible - do they actually embrace homosexuality? did they ever?

The thing is, Rastafarianism is a Judeo-Christian religion that places great emphasis on apocalypticism. Since the apocalypse (greek for "relevelation") will "reveal" who are the chosen people-- the "elect"--as opposed to the "damned," apocalyptic belief helps to console adherents (who are often oppressed societies) by telling them that there will be a better life for them in the next world/after the day of judgement. Babylon will fall and believers in Jah (the tribe of Judah) will take their rightful place as the "elect." Like Zionists, Rastas believe that there will be a homeland for their people. They think that the bible is talking about the Rastaman's plight--their homeland, the place for "the Israelites" of which Desmond Dekker sings--is in Ethiopia.

Rastafarianism, as an apocalyptic religion, is a very powerful force in the creation of community. The community must have a strong sense of itself, but it also must have a very strong sense of what constitutes the "other" i.e. who IS NOT part of the community.

While the community can provide some extremely positive things, such as empowerment to oppressed people and a sense of validity for one's culture, the desire to abject the "other" requires a clear definition of what doesn't fit. Where does one find this definition? In the Bible, of course!

Babylonians are equated with non-Rastas (significant supporters of the Babylon system being folks like George Bush, the Pope, the Queen- and her facist regime, etc.). Non-Rastas are also those who do not support Rasta belief and, say, commit un-Rasta acts such as having an intimate relationship with someone of the same sex.

The problem for me is that I agree that Babylon is wrong and populated with evil people like George Bush, persay, but I don't like how oppressive forces of Babylon are equated and collapsed with the so-called moral corruption of homosexuality.

just wanted to be clear...

Which is more likely the subject of these homophobic songs: a) Elton John or kd lang b) Joe Q. Homosexual and his longtime companion, taking the LIRR to Fire Island every weekend c) Homosexual folks who share much the same cultural milieu that the dancehall singers come (or came) from or d) Some beast that's about as grounded in lived experience as the baby-eating horn'd Jews in several centuries' worth of anti-Semitic fantasy?

I dunno, I think the issue of holding other people to moral standards mainly devised by human-rights lawyers bears some examination.

The original poster was expressing her disgust at people who wanted to kill: labelling murder as evil is not some cirlicue of recent European liberal legal trends but is rooted in "Thou Shall Not Kill" (or a corruption or a misunderstanding or a oversimplification of the same).

Doesn't anyone think that the 'right' to actively pursuing sexual minority status is a bit of a luxury in the grand schme of things?

When taken in the grand scheme of the way the rest of the world lives now, or the way the mankind has lived throughout most of its existence, or the way sentient creatures typically live within nature, ALL rights (both with and without scare quotes) start to seem like luxuries.

I live a lie too. I am trapped by my extreme need to sleep with supermodels instead of ratty indie chicks. I am unable to act on this and blame societal factors, such as the fact that I'm in a low- paying job and thus am not attractive to same. My thwarted desire is causing me to lead a shadowy mockery of an existence and my desires are ridiculed by friends and family. What's more, an army of feminists is on hand to tell me I am sick, dangerous and the source of all malignity. Why can't I proudly act on my desire to sleep with supermodels?) Yes I know this is disingenuous.

It's not disingenuous. It's chickenshit.

The phrase "exposed to cultural products" here is probably a little too weak. If I thwacked you in the face with my Louisville Slugger, would you say that you were "exposed to Clarke's bat"?

And I was, like, kickass interesting rhythm or not, that's fuckin' bullshit.

That's about it.

Laughable.

Damn it!

Perhaps part of the irritation with dancehall is that (unlike, say, pop-punka stuff) is that, aside from some astonishingly awful views on social issues, it could be so good -- both musically and sociopolitically.

I'm assuming you mean "Who's to say pop-punka stuff hasn't been that good?" No one's to say that in any objective way. It has been really good. But on a personal level, it doesn't give me chills the way good dancehall does. And its more retrograde (jesus, there's an irritating word) tendencies don't bother me as much for that reason -- I don't care about it the same way I do about dancehall.

when i used to listen to john peel he always used to play the odd dancehall track and he had the same problem so he always would listen out for gay basing stuff and he would only play the 'clean' stuff.

I think its all within the context of the song, you know (but maybe its just that i do have this thing where i don't know abt a lot of the terminology here and i'm poor at picking up on lyrics). I have enjoyed lots of what i've heard on the radio, the rhythms are quite something.

so what makes this diff from, say, gangsta rap. do ppl listen to one and not the other?

Chorus:
From dem a par inna chi chi man car
Blaze di fire mek we bun dem!!!! (Bun dem!!!!)
From dem a drink inna chi chi man bar
Blaze di fire mek we dun dem!!!! (Dun dem!!!!)

Verse 1:
Craigy:
So mi go so, do yuh see weh I see???
Niggas when your doin that
Nuff a dem a freak dem a carry all dem dutty act
Thug nigga wanna bees nuff a dem a lick it back
It dem bring it to we, hold on nuff a cop a shot
Cop a shot rise up every calico go rat tat tat
Rat tat tat every chi chi man dem haffi get flat
Get flat, mi and my niggas ago mek a pack
Chi chi man fi dead and dat's a fact

Chorus:
From dem a par inna chi chi man car
Blaze di fire mek we bun dem!!!! (Bun dem!!!!)
From dem a drink inna chi chi man bar
Blaze di fire mek we dun dem!!!! (Dun dem!!!!)

Verse 2:
Flexx:
So mi go so la la la la la la la la la la la
Nah go mek nuh chi chi man walk right a so
>From a bwoy a deep we ago dun dem right now
Leff him whole family dem a blow wow

Alexx:
I see it from far mi and dem nah go par
A nuff a dem bwoy mi a smoke man cigar
Mi and dem coulda never inna wrong bar
Dem bwoy deh flex too bizarre

Chorus:
>From dem a par inna chi chi man car
Blaze di fire mek we bun dem!!!! (Bun dem!!!!)
>From dem a drink inna chi chi man bar
Blaze di fire mek we dun dem!!!! (Dun dem!!!!)

Repeat intro twice
Repeat Verse 1 till song end

Best word evah!

this is an interesting topic,i'd love to see more discussion on this,although i'm not sure what i think myself

i don't see a huge difference between this and some of the more misogynist elements of rap- (wildflower by ghostface killah)

Last year I got very excited by a track I found by Beenie Man called "That right" whiich seemed to say "When we say bun chi chi man, everybody say that's right ... but when we bun chi chi man that no right"

Which seems to be either criticising the whole chi-chi man bunning thing, or at least asking the audience to make a distinction between art and life. But I may be optimistically misunderstanding the lyrics. Can anyone (Dave Stelfox ... do you know this?) help me out here. Is this some reflection within the dancehall community, trying to placate foreign critics or just a misunderstanding of something truly horrendous.

A couple of things:
First, in regards to TOK's insisting that they are speaking of the Prime Minister in "Chi Chi Man"--This idea comes from the fact that their song was used as the campaign song for the opposition leader (Seaga--look him up on the interweb for kicks...he sold Jamaica's soul to the US in the 80s) in the last election. It was chosen because Prime Minister PJ Patterson got divorced and, in Seaga's mind, didn't remarry quickly enough--hence, im a chi-chi. The buses in Kinston are referred to as "Chi-chi buses" because public transport is one of Patterson's pet projects. Sooooo...yes, TOK ARE talking about the Prime Minister, but they are insinuating that he's gay and needs to be "bunned out."

Second:
I started this thread last year--since then, I moved to Kingston and, after a few months, had to leave due to circumstances beyond my control. While I was there I worked at the University of the West Indies, went to a number of dances, met lots of folks in the recording industry, and spent quite a large portion of my time hanging out with some Bobo Ashanti dreads. Homosexuality is a topic that plain and simply IS NOT discussed in Jamaica--regardless of context. Violence and poverty (and I assure you, I have never in my life witnessed urban poverty like in Kingston) are larger issues for Jamaicans and even poverty gets short shrift due to the class divisions within Jamaican society.

So yes, Jamaica is an extremely (and violently) homophobic society, but it is a society in which the chi-chi man or batty boy has become the pariah--the personification of babylon. Babylon is also the source of oppression, so it makes as much sense (also biblically) to bun out fags as it does to bun out the capitalist psychos that have destroyed Jamaica. Of course, I think that this is faulty logic, but, like Stelfox, (and like what I wrote above) I recognize the cultural imperialism going on.

What was most interesting for me about the way in which these horrible tunes were regarded in Jamaica. Sure, there are some hits that sound good (e.g. "Living up" by Sanchez, the TOK above), but most of the violent homophobic stuff is in violent sounding music. Unfortunately, it seems that with the rise of Sean Paul, dancehall artists are taking to not really thinking about their lyrics in any way. It becomes easy to throw in a line like "Me nah wan no chi chi man, no" instead of really saying something. Thus, instead of homophobia being an unfortunate part of angry calls angainst oppressive forces, it is an unfortunate part of songs about hot gals.

When talking to dreads and bobos, I would ask about tunes like "Log On," or "Chi-chi Man." The response I got was not "It's bad when people say bad things about homosexuals," but that "it's bad when people want to resort to violence." My friend Manifes said "Why dem call pon people to 'step pon' people. Black man been stepped 'pon. I and I don't want to do same." Sounds like Stone Love will flip the fader over when a deejay makes a violent comment. Conscious sounds try not to play violent music--they want to uplift the people...So, and perhaps this might argue against the "capitalism makes people more tolerant" statement, the fact that there is money in vapidity encourages dancehall artists not to think about what they are saying. The money factor also explains why otherwise reasonable folks like Sizzla and Capleton (I know I condemned him in my first post, but I saw him live in Kingston at a tiny restaurant and he chatted all about the Iraq war and GWB...it was wicked) make nardcore dancehall tunes like "Pump up all poom poom" and "Empty the clip 'pon dem." Increasing the international market for ridiculous pop dancehall also increases the lack of thought (or respect for thought) in Jamaica. Many folks I spoke to bemoaned the lack of consciousness in music...since music is so much more of a part of Jamaican society than it is of North American or British society, positive music uplift de yout dem!

I hope this didn't come out poorly, I might have to write more later.

Postive track of the day: Sizzla "Simplicity"

And boring,of course.

And what's so wrong with Morrissey?

Patois is vile slang. Lazy English. I refuse to even attempt an understanding.

like, since English, a deeply random admixture of several languages, has managed to hang on with both hands (largely for reasons of its proponents' tendency to bring tha luv to other countries and impose it by force),it somehow gains validity? Absurd! &c.

As with all discussions on here, the original topic can get muddied and lost - I despise the dancehall genre anyway.... and patois - well.... whatever..... but my main bugbear is that people who have been opressed can become such violent, belligerent opressors. And try to justify this by religion. Could you get away with being racist these days by blaming your views on your religion? It just doesn't cut in this day and age. And neither should it - so how dare these people hide behind the mask of Rastafari.

Prejudice is prejudice.

Just not this one.
Fuck off and comment to someone who cares.

it wasn't obnoxious or boring.

Blount this is like a solid month of straight gold from you, somebody give that guy several boilermakers & send me the bill

But it does irk me when I hear 'street' English - sorry - I just hate it.... especially the hip hop slang speak - it sounds so imbecilic.

Blount - if that's your best feel good hit of the summer, dear, I really think you should get out from behind that PC more often, meet some real people who breathe, sweat, live and laugh - I'm sure you'll experience some better highs then. Thank you.

Look, stop feeding him and talk to me about Beenie Man.

There really has been some tremendous stuff on here, especially Cybele's and D Stelfox's recent contribs, but also that little comment way up at the top from Phil (with whom I often disagree):
".. you don't stop listening to the music you like. But you frame it"

That seems sensible and a good starting point for action (thinking action im particular) to me.

That's why we'll never be mates, I think.

Answer my question, Russ! If you're so opposed to mongrel languages, then why are you writing & speaking in English, a language so deeply fucked that it has NO predictable rules of pluralization, verb formation, or pronoun usage? The "slangs" against which you rail are actaully more sensible than English from a linguistic standpoint!

praeterea censeo Carthaginem Romaniis delendam esse, etc

john is making a point in direct response to yours,in which he is using knowledge of linguistics to question your assumptions,so unless you can come up with a counter arguement,don't waste your time with another ten bollocks "all i'm saying is i don't have time for idiots who can't speak" post

Stevem, the point is that all language has phatic components. Rap is a language heavy genre, so you'd expect a lot of it to be context setting rather than communicative. Are rap shout-outs more inane than "ooh"s and "aah"s of other pop music, or banal lyrics in rock?

To answer someone's q. from way up above: the aforementioned DJ had a "talking to," and in the year I remained at the station, he didn't play another "chi chi man"-type song.

I wonder if West Indian communities in the U.S. and Canada, like the one in Hartford to which our reggae shows were broadcasted, exhibit as virulent a homophobia as exists in Jamaica and Haiti.

(As a slight diversion, people reading this thread might want to read up on Haitian star Michel Martelly. His songs can contain anti-gay lyrics but he himself makes a habit of cross-dressing. In fact I think the first thing frees him to do the other. But it's an interesting comment on Haitian [and perhaps West Indian in general?] culture that a performer can successfully isolate a practice like cross-dressing from intimations of homosexuality.)

I just simply can't get my head round black homophobia - it's a bizarre concept to me. Homophobia in general.... but black homophobia?

Please direct me to a post where I've been racist, I'd be interested. If you can't, as I said, don't you dare imply or make untrrue suggestions on a public forum.

Thank you.

John - it's hardly for me, and certainly not for you, to justify the English language, its origins or its strengths and weaknesses - I'm speaking for MYSELF. What I believe and think, not from an irrelevant historical angle - are we all not on here to give our own personal versions/feelings regarding things? Do you honestly not think, as Stevem says (a poster I respect for being able to actually say what he genuinely thinks without fear of being accused of 'trolling' or 'racism' or general political incorrectness by the high and mighty moral highground who seem to inhabit this site), that the constant 'you know worrimean' and 'aiights' make the speaker sound dumb? Honestly? I'm being honest here - it makes my skin crawl. And when I listen to someone speaking like this, I switch off.

And Robin - who asked you? And more's the point - you are? I defend my stance as I wish. I write a post the length and way I care to - I for one skip long overblown theoretical posts as I find them horribly preachy and boring, I'm afraid and I don't have time to get through them. So back off. OK?

But we've had a pantomime / carnival tradition of cross dressing in European culture for at least 7 or 8 hundred years. May be much older.

russ if you're not trolling it speaks poorly of your intelligence.

micky's gags about his cross-dressing and his overall style are mind-boggling. it totally confuses all notions of good taste and good music. everyone should check him out. i wish i could find jpegs of his album covers, they're the best (worst).

Russ, linguistics aren't terribly subjective. You can believe, if you want, that English isn't what is actually is. You are free to eat celery and claim that it's mutton. But it's still celery. It is, in fact, for me, and anybody else who knows the verifiable historical facts of the matter, to discuss the origins, strengths, weaknesses, and myriad wonders of the English language. "Speaking for MYSELF" is fine until you go asserting that there's something innately "pure" about "proper English." Then you're just wrong, and anybody who tells you so is justified in doing so. Unless you want to say something like "Look, I've always said two and two were five, and it's not for you to tell me they're four!"

Your "switching off" is a response which you should examine more closely than you do. That's really all I'm saying. Because your reasons for switching off don't stand up well to scrutiny.

no they are not, 9 times out of 10 its all tiresome, cliched drivel. and rarely is it as effective or useful as its phatic tendencies would suggest either.

russ,it was in direct response to a point you were making!
not only that,but it was concise and clearly written in the queens english

making a point and then refusing to listen to a response is incredibly ignorant,especially if you then continue arguing without even having the good grace to read the post someone else has gone to the trouble of typing for your benefit

patois: a. Properly, a dialect (esp. in France or French Switzerland) spoken by the common people in a particular district, and differing materially from the literary language. In England, sometimes used loosely as a contemptuous designation for a provincial dialect or form of speech.
French scholars distinguish dialects as the particular forms presented by a language in different regions, so long as there does not exist a common written language. When a common language has become established as the medium of general literature, the dialects lose their literary standing and become patois.

pidgin: . A language as spoken in a simplified or altered form by non-natives, spec. as a means of communication between people not sharing a common language. Freq. attrib. or in Comb. Also fig. [This might handily be called "bastardized" without offending anyone.]

dialect: One of the subordinate forms or varieties of a language arising from local peculiarities of vocabulary, pronunciation, and idiom. (In relation to modern languages usually spec. A variety of speech differing from the standard or literary ‘language’; a provincial method of speech, as in ‘speakers of dialect’.) Also in a wider sense applied to a particular language in its relation to the family of languages to which it belongs.

so no, Jamaican English is not a language by commonly-accepted meanings of that term. but neither is it "bastardized" or "invalid."

Stevem : I wonder. I think we all get off a bit on the sense of being "down with the kids / street" from listening to music like UKG or even pop. That's part of it's popularity. It's a bit vicarious, not something we're particularly proud of, but I think it's implausible to saw it isn't part of the mixture for why we dig this kind of stuff. (Look at Simon Reynolds on the "Drive wid' us" theme in UKG)

Now I wonder whether this scene setting isn't an essential part of what attracts us. A lot of people complain when their "street" music seems to get "arty" or "middle class". Explanations given are usually that it's become all about style or technique, or that it's stopped being sexual / about dancing and the body.

But I wonder if one of the problems is that it's also lost this phatic call to community. Suddenly, the "inane" shout outs are gone, replaced usually by abstract music rather than more profound lyrics. It feels displaced, lacking in community, empty.

That's my understanding too. I also think Jamaican has creole like components. When for example a grammatical mistake (such as in the difference between I and me) becomes grammatically correct in this variant.

Also, I heard that reggae Jamaican incorporates a lot of a particular kind of slang, similar to backslang or dog latin, deliberately to make the speech more obscure. Some words are broken up and other words are inserted into the middle. (Bit like saying unbefuckinglievable)

Maybe this kind of slang transformation can become part of the grammatical structure of the language in Creole too.

Would you prefer "xenophobic twat"?

As for this debate between pidgin, creole, and patois, I think what's important (specifically to Jamaica--I don't claim to have tons of knowledge about any other creole) is to recognize that just because a language has a written set of rules doesn't mean it is superior. Jamaican Patois (Creole and patois being near synonyms) IS a language. It's grammatical structure happens to be closer to some African languages (it's hard to trace back--we are talking about a history of slavery and slave masters didn't really seem to care where they were procuring their slaves). Just because its surface morphology and phronology seem to reflect a "slang" or "dialect" version of English doesn't eliminate the fact that its has a grammatical and syntactical structure of its own.

As Professor Braithwaite at UWI wrote, Jamaican Patois (or, more properly, Jamaican) should be considered a "nation-language." Yes, there are similarities between English and Jamaican, just like there are similarities between, say, German and Yiddish (would you like to argue that Yiddish isn't a real language too?), but Jamaican does have many of its own linguistic properties and words--such as verbs like "nyam" meaning "to eat" or nouns like "pickney" to mean child.
It is also the source of much pride in Jamaica and hell, I don't care how angry some of you get, but it's bloody upsetting to me to even have to make this argument.

but of course i agree w/you entirely that this patois is no less "valid" or any such thing than standard american english.

Jamaican Patois is in fact a creole. Creoles are languages. Patois isn't broken English any more than English is broken German. Standard English is not a creole, although the majority of its lexicon is from other languages. If this sounds confusing, well, it is. Read "Word on the Street" or "The Power of Babel" by John McWhorter if you want a well-written explanation of how linguists classify languages, dialects, and all that.

Since Black English has been mentioned, it's probably worth pointing out that Black English is not a creole as many people (including the Oakland School Board at one point in time) believe, it's a dialect.

Also, slang and language are very different things. Languages have slang, no languages are slang.

In my professional opinion you can safely ignore anything russ t says about Jamaican Patois or English.

-fh (a linguist)

I guess it might be a case of dancehall sounding so thoroughly exotic to me in all of its elements that I can't easily connect its dramas to the real world, and the bogeymen homosexuals are as unreal and outlandish and cartoonish to me as Elephant Man himself is. This is not a defence of course... I strongly feel that i should be more disturbed than I am.

Russ why should black homophobia be *more* difficult to "get your head round* than white homophobia? Can you in any way justify this comment other than resorting to hackneyed and hopelessly dimwitted "all oppressed people should unite" arguments? (Yeah, maybe they should but they don't, you know - it just doesn't happen.)
It's true, ethically speaking, this is an incredibly thorny issue for me, as outlined in the pots above, but as someone who won't even recognise the validity of patois, well, you just don't have an awful lot to debate.
And Tim, as ever I can't help but agree with you. Despite being concerned about this issue and making an attempt to understand/rationalise/reconcile my feelings on *any* kind of prejudice with my love of this music, there's something so extreme and *ridiculous* about all the posturing in dancehall that it's just pretty damned difficult to take totally seriously.
Remembering that dancehall is an intensely theatrical and contrived, with deejays taking on the most absurd performance personae etc, makes me think that, to a large degree, these views are merely a front and not to be taken literally. I know this doesn't make it much better, but it does mean that given time they may disappear - however, I wouldn't hold your breath for this.

ding ding ding. The scapegoats (the Hated) find themselves their own scapegoat (Hated). Now they can be the bullies.

rest assured that we all do not

this all comes down to whether one believes homosexuality is a choice or part of our genes. (i believe the latter) obv the equals argt will never apply, but it becomes less problematic to conflate the two in terms of biology. culturally on the other hand...

i don't really know one way or the other and don't care much as both views have their pros and cons. the bottom line is that if it's genetic or a choice, people should have the right to conduct their lives freely and without discrimination. the notion that homosexuality is a sin, has little to do with the nature/nurture debate, it's more about a changing perceived notions of morality - obv when this morality is as heavily tied to religion as in this instance, you start to encounter serious problems...

I do think, though, that the huge rise in clubs/drugs have done a great deal in building bridges between the straight and gay communities.... there's a lot more people who would never have set foot in a gay club or spoken to a gay person before now regul,ars in many clubs I go to - drawn there by the great music and the hassle free atmosphere. And that's a good thing.

in this instance i think it would make comparatively little difference. but this whole issue is all about people judging one another and who is right/whi is wrong? i just find it horrendously condescending that people have kneejerk "homophobia = evil = end of debate" reactions when there is so much inetresting stuff to be discussed here: music, sociology, theology, history etc... that's why i love dancehall - for all its limitations, it's an incredibly rich vein to mine if you're of a mind to.

I think and inclusive society must also be a society in which there is time and space for reflection. When you think about the artificial divisions different groups construct between themselves and others, they really seem arbitrary and ridiculous. Where I live, in Montreal, I have the time and space to think about issues and to evaluate my positions and outlook regarding religion, race, homosexuality, feminism, etc. When I lived in Kingston, I found that a lot of this time and space was taken up by maintaining my level of personal safety. One particularly difficult day, after having been yealled at by dozens of people on the street (I was walking from a church to a bus stop), I called a friend and tried to explain just how hard it was for me to be in Kingston. Waking up every day I knew I'd be in for a challenge...I'd psych myself up if I wanted to go and buy a paper or if I had to leave campus.

One of my dread friends there talked to me about how much he wished he could sit down and write about his experiences. I said "Why not?" to which he responded "There's too much noise in my community." Read: I can't sleep because of shootings, I have to bleech (Jamaican for staying up late in order to make sure nothing out of order happens) all night, I have to make money to eke by, there is no time. Ghetto youth and dancehall performers talk often about how they feel "under pressure" (think Super Cat's wicked mid eighties tune). The pressure one feels in a garrison community (like Hope Tavern, August Town, Hermitage, Trenchtown, Seaview Gardens Grant's Pen, Waterhouse, Southside....i.e. the majority of communities in Kingston) removes the time and spcae necessary for reflective thought. Hell, when I first came back I had to keep reminding myself that I didn't have to feel uncomfortable walking around my parent's rural community. Fundamentalist belief and faith is, to me, a reaction to the intense pressure many Kingstonians find themselves under. It provides a sense of comfort and safety...perhaps the way to eliminate homophobia in dancehall (and in Jamaica--and perhaps other southern developing nations) is to slam liberal economic policies--the forces of globalization that have led to the incredible poverty and desperation in so many areas around the world.

Artist: Beenie Man
Song: "Thats Right"
Submitted By: Miss Kalunji
http://www.dancehallarea.com

Intro:
Zo, hey, zagga sing, hey, ziggy zagga zow!
Clap your hands to this, then get ready fi do all of it
Zagga zagga go na na na na na, all rudebwoy wave oonu hands up like this
Alright, cool

Chorus:
A from mi bun chi chi man and we go bun sodemite
And everybody bawl out seh that's right (It's alright)
And when mi bun hypocrite and we mi bun parasite
And everybody bawl out seh that's right (It's alright)
And when mi boom dung corruption wid a stick a dynamite
And everybody bawl out seh that's right (It's alright)
Mi go a stage show a DJ and tune yah last night
And everybody bawl out seh that's right

Verse 1:
Cause when we bun chi chi man nuttin nuh wrong
And when we bun lesbian nuttin nuh wrong
Bun a borrow taste and a bite nuttin nuh wrong
Bun Susan from she a sleep wid Sharon
And from yuh know yuh straight let mi see your two hand
Cause yuh nuh mix up inna nuh bangarang
Straight and di narrow road a dat mi deh pon
That he gwaan one leap to destruction, sing this song

Chorus:
A from mi bun chi chi man and mi go bun sodemite
And everybody bawl out seh that's right (It's alright)
And we go bun hypocrite and we go bun parasite
And everybody bawl out seh that's right (It's alright)
And when mi boom dung corruption wid a stick a dynamite
And everybody bawl out seh that's right (Bun Wey!!!)
Mi go a stage show a DJ and tune yah last night
And everybody bawl out seh that's right

Verse 2:
So when mi put a fire pon a few and everybody bawl (That's Right)
Bun a sodemite and everybody bawl (That's Right)
Bun a parasite and everybody bawl (That's Right)
Bun a bwoy wey meet anotha man dung a (Stoplight)
Nuff bwoy sell out fi get a piece a di (Spotlight
Da people dem a bawl and a shout (That's not right)
Give mi one a dem gal rather flop all di (Hot type)
Day and night now mi gal a long time

Chorus:
Cau when mi bun chi chi man and mi go bun sodemite
And everybody bawl out seh that's right (It's alright)
And we go bun chi chi man and we go bun sodemite
And everybody bawl out seh that's right (It's alright)
And when mi boom dung corruption wid a stick a dynamite
And everybody bawl out seh that's right (It's alright)
Mi go a stage show a DJ and tune yah last night
And everybody bawl out seh that's right

Verse 3:
Mi bun a bwoy from wey a blow anotha man flute
Person ago nyam cherry and fruit
Caught drop pants inna club a him a don yute
And seh that him a bad that was untrue
A chi chi baboon and chi chi tranquil
Try to send mi court fi get a one suit
But dem waan march and protest discue
Words sound and power mi put dem pon mute
Beenie Man a talk di truth

Chorus:
A when we bun chi chi man and we go bun sodemite
And everybody bawl out seh that's right (It's alright)
And when we bun hypocrite and we go bun parasite
And everybody bawl out seh that's right (It's alright)
And when mi boom dung corruption wid a stick a dynamite
And everybody bawl out seh that's right (That's right)
Mi go a stage show a DJ and tune yah last night
And everybody bawl out seh that's right

This grabs at something I have often thought about in larger contexts as well, about how there is a space (or seen to be a space) for people to express or work through questions of reflection and self-study but that there is so much in the way of outside pressure, social stigmatization, stereotyping in general and so forth that can either prevent that space from flourishing or not let that space allowed to be seen for what it is. If I may draw a comparison (and I hope Dan doesn't mind what I'm doing here but I'm sure he agrees), both Dan and I in our teen years in particular were nerdy, had wacked out senses of humor, didn't really approach girls, lost ourselves in music and books and so forth. Thanks to America being what it is, I would have been seen as 'just another teen geek' or the like, but Dan in many peoples' eyes would have been seen first and foremost as an African-American teenager, while that essential part of his personality would either be secondary or simply not addressed at all in favor of limiting stereotypes -- a bit of Invisible Man (Ralph Ellison style) in miniature. Anyway, pardon my interruption and continue...

i don't think we should romanticize conscious roots music, even if we do prefer its lyrical content to that of contemporary dancehall. first of all, conscious music has always struck me as a species of gospel music (even if it rejects Christ etc., the lyrical fixations and overall form owes much to Christian music as The Harder They Come takes some pains to illustrate) and it shares with that genre a certain denseness and monomania when it comes to social commentary. The moralism common to gospel and conscious reggae easily shades over into denunciations of homosexuality--the particular violence with which this ideas is expressed in contemporary dancehall seems part and parcel of the violent quality of that music overall.

As for conscious reggae, I get tired of all the "back to Africa" obsessions (which continue to this day, albeit not making so many appearances on the charts), which begins to ring as hollow as Jews ritualistically saying "next year in Jerusalem" every passover. Now of course Bob Marley, Peter Tosh, and others wrote songs of unusual clarity and incisiveness...and Burning Spear took the religious concerns of Rasta to a sublime, almost abstract plane of loose signifiers... but the majority of conscious reggae is hardly that inspired and if it weren't for the general brilliance of pop production/performance in Jamaica I don't think it would come across as all that profound/meaningful.

Amst surely "back to Africa" is *precisely* a ritualistic thing, a working through of Garveyism into rasta symbolism. 'Hollow' is maybe not the most helpful way to think about it.

I was listening to "Rod Of Correction" the other day. It's an allegorical (only in Jamaica!) PNP election song from the (?72) in which Michael Manley is set up as Joshua, beating Sodom and Gomorrah with his Rod of Correction. I always assume that in the 70s most of the corruption rhetoric was aimed at the West but it occurs to me that it's not far from identifying "Sodomites" as the corrupt forces in Jamica...

I remain fascinated by this and uncomfortable about it.

do these people proseletyse at all? i like this idea of kinda uber-flamboyant billy graham types laying on hands! flippancy aside what exactly do you mean mark?

Other point I find interesting is homophobia's relation to masculinity. I've always thought that hip hop is homophobic partly because subdued people try to overcome their situation by emphasizing their personal strength, and with men this often means accentuated masculinity, which can lead to homophobia (and misogyny). However, this probably doesn't apply to Jamaica per se, since homophobia has different connotations there than just emphasizing your manhood. Perhaps Cybele would have more to say on this.

But listen Mr Oxford don
I'm a man on de run
and a man on de run
is a dangerous one

I ent have no gun
i ent have no knife
but mugging de Queens English
is the story of my life

I don't need no axe
to split/ up yu syntax
I don't need no hammer
to mash/ up yu grammar

I warning you Mr. Oxford don
I'm a wanted man
and a wanted man
is a dangerous one.

Dem accuse me of assault
on de Oxford English Dictionary/
imagine a concise peaceful man like me/
dem want me to serve time
for inciting rhyme to riot
but I tekking it quiet
down here on Clapham Common

I'm not a violent man Mr Oxford Don
I only armed wit mih human breath
but human breath
is a dangerous weapon

So mek dem send one big word after me
I ent serving no jail sentence
I slashing suffix in self-defence
I bashing future wit present tense
and if necessary

I making de Queens English acessory/to my offence

anglo carribean poet john agard about patois

when hen sb says things like anti-homosexual sentiment itself is pretty much universal it denies the complexity and ambiguity of third gendered, differently gendered, same sex attracted, etc etc.

However, I strongly doubt homophobes notice the difference. Also, generalizations can be useful for educational purposes, so you can prove "homosexuality" has existed throughout the times and in different cultures, even though the term itself and it's current meaning were coined in the 19th century.

(i think i am probably arguing that at least some of the intensity of crackle between these communitities comes from LIKENESS and thus defensiveness, rather than UNlikeness and hostile puzzlement....)

mark, you are a star! i think you've hit the nail on the head yet again, but i'm going to try to distill this even further. i spent a lot of time in manchester a few years ago and spent much of that time in predominantly gay company. even as a straight man i found the pressure placed on gay people to conform to certain archetypes and toe a certain ideological line crushing, almost all-pervasive and vastly counter-productive. there's a whole nutha thread there but you've got to the root of something really important: that, homophobic or gay, the attitudes and beliefs being discussed here are both forms of orththodoxy...?

-- anthony easton (anthonyeasto...), July 8th, 2003.

read the post above yours again, that's what i was referring to... the connection is easier to understand particularly if you read right the way from the top of this thread's resurrection (if you have time). i've gone some way to trying to tease this out, cybele's gone a lot further. it's a bit involved, but it's back to that whole personification thing we were on about. the "chi-chi man" seems to represent a lot more than just being gay.

cybele will be able to tell you more about the actual existence of gay communities in jamaica as this is something i know very little about, however, as far as i know being visibly gay is not really an option for the majority on the island. the whole thing i find interesting is the fact that the vast majority of the hatred is not in fact aimed at gay people at all, merely using homophobic terminologies as catchwords for so much more

judging by the headline and strap (as based on my possibly inaccurate memory) this scene exists reasonably openly and is militantly determined to continue to enjoy itself despite whatever

however i think some dots now need joining by someone who knows what they're talking about!!

Chilling Call to Murder as Music Attacks Gays

Jamaican rights activist's death is officially said to be motivated by robbery, but campaigners point to pop-fueled homophobia

by Gary Younge in New York

In the heat of January in Jamaica 30,000 people came to the Rebel Salute concert in St. Elizabeth to hear some of the nation's most popular singers deliver a chilling call. With Capleton and Sizzla singing almost exclusively about gay men, the call went out from the stadium:

"Kill dem battybwoys haffi dead, gun shots pon dem ... who want to see dem dead put up his hand" (Kill them, the queers have to die, gun shots in their head ... put up your hand if you want to see them dead.)

Two weeks ago Jamaica's most prominent gay activist, Brian Williamson, was murdered at his home. Mr Williamson, a co-founder of Jamaican Forum for Lesbians, All-sexuals and Gays (J-FLAG), was found with multiple stab wounds to his neck and his face and his throat cut.

With his safe missing and his room ransacked, the police insist that it was a robbery and have one person in custody. Jamaica's gay activists and human rights campaigners are not so sure. They fear Mr Williamson could have been targeted because of his sexual orientation.

"Given the climate that exists in Jamaica there is high possibility that Brian's murder is a hate related crime and we don't want the police to rule that out," said a representative of J-FLAG, who did not wish to be named for fear of reprisals. Brian was one of the few people who felt comfortable enough to go public with his homosexuality."

Indeed, last May Mr Williamson wrote to the national newspaper, the Jamaica Observer, explaining: "We who are homosexuals are seen as 'the devil's own children' and passed by on the other side of the street or beaten to death by our fellow citizens."

The hatred has followed him to the grave. "We've had one or two well wishers from the straight community," said the J-FLAG representative. "But many more have said things like: 'This is what you get for sin' or 'we should get them one by one.'"

Human rights campaigners say that while the precise motive of Mr Williamson's killers may never be known, his death provides a timely opportunity for the government to address the problem. "We have called on the Jamaican authorities to use this time to make a public statement condemning homophobia and calling for people to respect the rights of lesbian and gay men," said Michael Heflin, of Amnesty International in the United States.

This is not likely to happen soon. From Buju Banton's Boom Boom Bye Bye, which threatened gay men with a "gunshot in ah head", to Beenie Man's "I'm a dreaming of a new Jamaica, come to execute all the gays", Jamaica's popular music scene is steeped in homophobia. Concern that his lyrics could incite violence against gays and activists led to the cancellation of a concert by Beenie Man in London earlier this week.

But songs are not the only place where homophobia is blatant. At a state level, article 76 of the nation's offences against the person act criminalizes the "abominable crime of buggery" with up to 10 years imprisonment, while article 79 punishes any act of physical intimacy between men in public or private with up to two years in jail and the possibility of hard labor.

A recent poll showed 96% of Jamaicans were opposed to any move to legalize homosexual relations. And while the police do not condone homophobic violence, they are often unsympathetic to the victims.

One man described to J-FLAG how six men blocked a road in order to beat up a local gay man. "The crowd stood around watching, chanting 'Battyman, battyman, battyman', before gathering around him as he lay on the sidewalk. The crowd punched and kicked him. They threw garbage on him, all the while shouting 'Battyman, battyman'. They then dragged him down the road for half a kilometer ... The crowd was saying 'Give him to us! Let us kill him! He's a battyman'."

At least five gay Jamaicans have successfully claimed asylum in Britain on grounds of homophobia. "I had to leave because of the pressure," said one 26-year-old Jamaican who settled in Britain in 2000 and asked to remain anonymous. "I had been beaten up and chased and the police would not help you. Once I went to hospital after I was badly beaten up and they refused to treat me."

Few can agree on the source of such homophobia. But most agree the church plays a crucial role. "Evangelical Christianity is very strong, and there is a prudishness and hypocrisy that comes with that," said a representative of J-FLAG. "They ignore the part that says don't have sex out of wedlock and focus on gays."

Others claim the sheer geographical size of islands in the Caribbean makes them more socially conservative. "So long as you are stuck living close to your family then you never really get the space to make the kind of choices about your life that will challenge the values and practices you've been brought up with," said Erin Greene, a member of the Rainbow Alliance of the nearby Bahamas.

The particularly violent expression homophobia has found in Jamaica, most agree, reflects a particularly violent society. In 2002 1,045 people were murdered, and according to Amnesty International, Jamaica has the highest number of police killings per capita in the world. In the national paper, the Daily Gleaner, the murder count is updated daily, between the weather forecast and the lottery numbers.

"The worst thing is when you see children of three or four singing songs about killing the Chi Chi [gay] man," said one J-FLAG representative. "They are learning from an early age that violence against gay people is acceptable."

© Guardian Newspapers Limited 2004

seriously, what are its redeeming qualities, i'd really like to know?

is it lil' jon shouting in an usher song that really grabs a hold onto your heart strings or what!?

Dancehall Fans Against Homophobia is a petition-based campaign that rejects homophobic lyrics, and also rejects the recent attacks on dancehall and reggae by an over-zealous and ill-informed media.

ties in with this thread

it must be nice to be a straight man and not actually affected by homophobia!

I find your division of dancehall fans into the authentic real Jamaicans and the inauthentic non-Jamaicans risible.

50-odd people and a website won't change the world, no. But cumulative outside pressure, particularly on a commercial enterprise such as the making and selling of music, has been known to have some effect. It's one strategy to be used in concert with others.

CLASSIC!!!!!

haha btw the first tenet of the petition says "We are fans and supporters of reggae, dancehall and Jamaican music in all its forms."

Aside from the homophobic ones, I presume.

Even with regards Jamaica itself, how far would your moral relativism take you, stelfox? What would you be willing to accept in its name? Reductio ad absurdam: let's say the murder of gay men became legal, would you still want to lay off?

is the prevalence of knee-jerk liberalism toward jamaican (especially dancehall) homophobia almost as problematic as the homophobia itself?

'factors' don't 'affect change'. they are just factors. you have indeed spent a long time outlining them, and most of us have taken them on board. we understand. this brings us no closer to actually resolving the issue at hand! Dave, I would be happy if for once you actually put forward a workable, non-condescending solution based on your superior knowledge &c. Obviously I don't think you are a homophobe, but it's hard not to suspect that you don't care that much about it as it doesn't affect you.

this post comes across as way too patronising/aggressive so sorry - am drunk.

You obviously don't think "tolerance and understanding" includes refraining from arguing with bigots (as you did so well upthread). From what you've said, I gather you've argued with Jamaican homophobes yourself.

As a gay man I feel a strong sense of solidarity with gay men in Jamaica for the horribly menaced and repressed lives they must lead. I'm "inside" a scene in that way. The "culturial imperialism" argument implies that we should do nothing to stop one oppressed group oppressing and even more oppressed subset; I find that argument specious. Would you apply the same argument to female gential mutilation, the stoning of adultresses, honour killings, institutional racism etc.? Should the West really have nothing to say on these issues and apply no pressure on the countries where they're practised on grounds of cultural imperialism? Amnesty International has recently weighed in forcefully over the issue of homophobia in Jamaica. Do you think it shouldn't have?

cute

and read what i said. i said use of those terms was never advisable. but mate, gay or not, you're in a very privileged position where you can do what you like with impunity. this is not the case in many other places, as you are no doubt aware. the only thing is that handwringing, wailing and telling people what to think exactly when you want them to think it will not change matters any too quick. taking the time to step outside your own life and read and understand some of the things i'm saying will help a lot more. tolerance breeds tolerance, understanding breeds understanding and even with people entering into meaningful dialogue *on level ground* - not a group of rich outsiders dictating to a country that's being shoved around from all sides as it it - this process of change will take a fucking long time. economic security has nurtured the liberal environment in which you are able to pursue your way of life (and that is a bloody good thing, more power to you), but that isn't the case in many other places. as economic security effectively buys liberalism and freedom (look at the way that any time there's an upsurge of interest in and success of hate politics, its always in economically deprived areas) i'd contend that there's a lot more to be got right before you can expect everyone to be as accepting and pluralistic as you demand. call me for whatever you like and throw all the specious accusations around that you feel you need to, but i'm thinking objectively here. you're not.

wrong. you're falling into a trap here. sizzla was denied a visa late last year to which his response was roughly: "i don't care. i can do just fine in jamaica, thanks. i don't need europe or america." then proceeded to say a bunch of really offensive things about gay people (which i feel i *have* to say i abhor, rather than it just being taken as read, as it should be) and that this had only made his belief stronger.

You sidestepped my question. Nasty things happen in fucked-up countries. But do you really think that Western gov'ts and NGOs should not seek to apply any outside pressure to change things like female genital mutilation or honour killings? (Or, for that matter, incitement to homophobic lynching?) You put non-interference above responsibility towards victims?

yeah, all this stuff is dealt with in the opening post (I've only just re-read the thread): in a way that's even more disturbing for the reasons cybele pointed out back then.

Dave, do you know how Ce'cile's comments about the whole issue were received in Jamaica/the dancehall community? she was pretty explicit about her disdain for it. I think this might be one workable solution - to focus on the artists who aren't prepared to endorse homophobia. I suspect many of the more high profile female MCs would be more willing than their male counterparts to take some sort of stand - Tanya Stephens, Lady Saw, Ms Thing et al - as well as people like Sean Paul who have found massive overseas success. (Sean Paul and Ce'cile are from fairly well-to-do families, aren't they? I don't know how pro-gay statements from them would come across.)

anyway yes: if enough dancehall stars are willing to begin the dialogue from within there might be something there. I'm kind of surprised Ce'cile's statement didn't lead to something more though.

miles, i didn't say it was worse. will people ditch the hyperbole for just one second and concentrate on what i'm saying. i'm saying homophobia is wrong, flat out totally fucking indefensible, but there are ways and means of making these changes and dictating to people from on high is not one of them and will only antagonise.

it's really a cse of enforcing the positive and backing it for all we're worth now.

I'd definitely agree with this. on a not unrelated note, did the Ce'cile album ever come out properly? I've spent the last six months or so intermittently looking for it but I can't even find it in specialist shops.

http://villagevoice.com/music/0507,oumano,61118,22.html

peace

it is morally reprehensible that beenie man and T.O.K. actively espouse anti-gay sentiments, and promote violence against gays and lesbians in their music.

it's also pretty terrible that some people think HIV/AIDS is something that only affects gay people.

*sigh*

And I'm not even a Christian...

PS, was that a Dread Zepplin reference?

MURDER INNA DANCEHALL - Homophobia In Dancehall Music

http://www.soulrebels.org/dancehall.htm

Productions the label behind the “18 Karat Reggae” CD series is holding the first ever Straight Pride Parade in Brooklyn, New York on August 31, 2008. The parade will take place on Eastern Parkway along the same route as the annual Caribbean labor day parade.

New reggae / dancehall sensation Jango Fresh said, “the Straight pride parade is a great idea because when a song like “Hit them hard” by my label mate Stapler can be banned just because it stresses the importance of a male and a female in every family, it is a sign that heterosexuals need to wake up.

The Straight Pride Parade is a chance for Heterosexuals to gather together and proudly embrace their sexuality. The Parade will also allow reggae and dancehall fans who are in New York City for the Labor Day celebrations to get together and celebrate reggae, dancehall and family in love and unity. Adults are encouraged to bring their children along for the celebrations, as the event will be family oriented.

The president of TCOOO said he hopes the event will unify the reggae community who has seen many reggae events cancelled recently not only in the United States but all over Europe and the Caribbean. “I sat quietly and watched as they cancelled artists like Buju Banton, Sizzla Kalonji and Capleton” he said, “but when the gay community went after TCOOO artists like Vineyard the Rebel Priest, Stapler and Jango Fresh we decided that we must make a show of strength.”

Lyrics from Hit Them Hard:

Jah Jah gonna hit them hard
All the men who visit men backyard
Leaving all the women to starve
One thunder ball and all of them pause
Hand in hand with my lady
Hug her and kiss her cause she carried my baby
But some boys moving shady

ok part of me just died a little.

Leaving all the women to starve

^^sure about that?

Sigh.

I prefer the lyrics to "Master Blaster."

http://nymag.com/daily/food/2008/07/jamaican_women_take_umbrage_with_bourdain.html

:( this parade is happening two blocks from my house

One thunder ball

?

. . . the importance of a male and a female in every family, it is a sign that heterosexuals need to wake up.
. . . the importance of a male and a female in every family, it is a sign that heterosexuals need to wake up.
. . . the importance of a male and a female in every family, it is a sign that heterosexuals need to wake up.

When I get past the fact that this isn't a satire I am going to throw up. I mean, it's a Straight-Pride Parade for God's sake.

I should go just for fun

http://www.jamaica-star.com/thestar/20080409/ent/ent1.html

http://www.ammocity.com/artman/uploads/beeniepride2.jpghttp://santacruz.indymedia.org/usermedia/image/9/prideposters20042--mfit-w200-s1.jpg

First Ave. cancels Buju Banton show, ugh

http://blogs.laweekly.com/westcoastsound/off-the-record/minneapoliss-first-avenue-canc/

For the record, it is the only song he ever made on the subject - and he does not perform it today.

on the contrary its pretty much a staple of his live show

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0Eg4Dd9NY4

gets his mic cut off at carifest as the band starts to play it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoNMNmvcVpA

Wish that Batty Boy had something to do with vampires.

"read what i said. i said use of those terms was never advisable. but mate, gay or not, you're in a very privileged position where you can do what you like with impunity. this is not the case in many other places, as you are no doubt aware. the only thing is that handwringing, wailing and telling people what to think exactly when you want them to think it will not change matters any too quick. taking the time to step outside your own life and read and understand some of the things i'm saying will help a lot more. tolerance breeds tolerance, understanding breeds understanding and even with people entering into meaningful dialogue *on level ground* - not a group of rich outsiders dictating to a country that's being shoved around from all sides as it it - this process of change will take a fucking long time. economic security has nurtured the liberal environment in which you are able to pursue your way of life (and that is a bloody good thing, more power to you), but that isn't the case in many other places. as economic security effectively buys liberalism and freedom (look at the way that any time there's an upsurge of interest in and success of hate politics, its always in economically deprived areas) i'd contend that there's a lot more to be got right before you can expect everyone to be as accepting and pluralistic as you demand. call me for whatever you like and throw all the specious accusations around that you feel you need to, but i'm thinking objectively here. you're not."

― stelfox, Wednesday, February 2, 2005 6:43 AM (4 years ago) Bookmark

This thread should have pretty much been locked after this. I don't even like dancehall, but my parents are from the Caribbean, although not Jamaica, and unfortunately homophobia is a deeply ingrained part of the culture in many parts of it. I personally find it reprehensible, but if anyone thinks that a bunch of middle class (mostly white) people from rich countries complaining about it is going to change anything, then please let me disabuse you of that notion right now. That would be about as productive as telling all of the gunmen in Kingston to put down their weapons and hug it out. Ignorance, fear, hate and violence all come from somewhere, and until the core issues that underlie these attitudes and patterns of behaviour are dealt with, not much is going to change.

That's almost fair, until you realize two things: That the global nature of music means that criticism is also global, and that the options aren't simply to try to shift the acceptability of homophobia through complaining from a position or letting it go and working on addressing the underlying social problems—that's a false dichotomy.

And that's before dealing with the omni-present sub-issues that condemnation and complaint can help strengthen domestic opposition to homophobia (especially by knocking down easier targets), and the constant rebuttal that a significant plurality of artists making great music are tremendous assholes, and sometimes homophobia (or sexism or racism) is part of engaging with them through their art.

i agree with stelfox's general point too, but aren't these cancellations less of a "jamaica must change its evil ways" proclamation and more of a "keep your ignorance off our land" type thing? and isn't that their right?

i'm (mostly white) btw

(by "their right" i mean the other countries that the artists are travelling to for performing)

i don't agree with stelfox's general point. "economic security has nurtured the liberal environment in which you are able to pursue your way of life" is a highly debatable relationship, and "ook at the way that any time there's an upsurge of interest in and success of hate politics, its always in economically deprived areas" is not true either.

http://roomp3.com/img_ar/1896.jpg

"i'm (mostly white) btw"

xp - neither of those are his general point imo

but i'm thinking objectively here. you're not.

was this it?

even with people entering into meaningful dialogue *on level ground* - not a group of rich outsiders dictating to a country that's being shoved around from all sides as it it - this process of change will take a fucking long time.

and this:

i'm saying homophobia is wrong, flat out totally fucking indefensible, but there are ways and means of making these changes and dictating to people from on high is not one of them and will only antagonise.

― stelfox, Wednesday, February 2, 2005 7:30 AM

but again, i'm not so sure a cancelled concert in another country = "dictating to people from on high"

If we're going to be all sandy vagina about respecting other cultures when visiting other countries, I don't think it's at all inconsistent to be all sandy vagina when someone comes to our country and does something we would find insulting.

Facebook group defending Buju Banton:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=158249667941

tolerance breeds tolerance, understanding breeds understanding

yeah, if we tolerate homophobes they will tolerate the gays. stands to reason.

The Buju dc area show is still on for Sunday (it's happening out in a Maryland club that white people rarely go to).

the implication that being poor and marginalized breeds homophobia is straight garbage - jamaica got a particular problem here and whites noting it is not omg foolish cultural imperialism

^^true - though too much of the anti-dancehall lobbying is coming from a place of near-total ignorance and hysteria.

it's not "anti-dancehall" i'm pretty sure but nice try there.

I like this too:

This thread should have pretty much been locked after this.

Good way to open up a dialogue.

That song "Boom Bye Bye" was written nearly twenty years ago, when Buju was a 15-year-old boy.

lol srsly how many times are they gonna pull this line out

"he was only 15! hes got no choice but to sing it live every night!"

Again, I'm not a huge fan of dancehall, and I think homophobia is wrong, but talking down to people you disagree with from a position of moral superiority without trying to understand the root causes of the offending behaviour isn't a "dialogue". It's a lecture, and they don't work. As mentioned above Jamaica does have a particular problem, or a particularly bad case of a widespread problem. Jamaica has also got a very serious problem with violent crime, but I'm not under the illusion that wagging my finger at the gunmen from my relatively privileged position because they offend my middle-class North American values will make a lick of difference. I think the point Stelfox was trying to make, and one that I agree with is that it might be more productive to ask "why", instead of just yelling "stop".

And as for this:

"yeah, if we tolerate homophobes they will tolerate the gays. stands to reason"

I can only hope that it was an intentional attempt at completely missing the point.

Erm, I think you'll find a great deal of them did. (eg Native Americans)

― Old Fart!!!, Monday, June 17, 2002 8:00 PM (7 years ago)

― Old Fart!!!

without trying to understand the root causes of the offending behaviour

wtf, it's machismo + monotheism, just like "white" homophobia. this idea that it's rooted in poverty is just fucked.

talking down to people you disagree with from a position of moral superiority without trying to understand the root causes of the offending behaviour

but the gay activist protesters and the rasta/christian fundie singers are both acting in a "position of moral superiority" and depending on what country you're in, one group happens to trump the other

And how effective is that in adjusting attitudes or changing patterns of behaviour?

"wtf, it's machismo + monotheism, just like "white" homophobia. this idea that it's rooted in poverty is just fucked".

So there's no chance that a non-religious Jamaican female could be homophobic?

what are the chances that a non-religious white woman from anywhere could be homophobic?

you can adjust for her income, but i'm looking for an exact number here.

Are we sort of arguing along the same lines of "it's good there is murder because it tells us something is wrong with the system"?

wtf, it's machismo + monotheism, just like "white" homophobia

If there's such a thing as an 'average' white homophobe - certainly in the UK - I wouldn't necessarily expect them to trot out Leviticus to justify their position

In any case, my ears are way more offended by dancehall than my conscience, so I don't even know what I'm doing on this thread.

calling someone out on some fucked up shit theyre doing has never worked ever while the record of questioning underlying motivation of aggressors is a well established tactic for change - one only has to look as far the famous "why do you think im not a man" signs worn by civil rights protesters in mid century america or gandhis famous "what is the fundamental cause of you occupying my country" protest in india to see its effectiveness

in what universe are either of your examples not evidence of ppl calling someone out on their fucked up shit

you can adjust for her income, but i'm looking for an exact number here

Keep looking for that exact number. You know how dumb this is right? You know what? Keep canceling the odd dancehall concert and keep up your moral outrage. I'm sure that will solve the problem of homophobia in not only Jamaican music, but society-at-large.

uh dan

Y'know, wishing that practitioners of a kind of music you generally like would stop it with the songs about killing you, your friends and family is not really colonial white man lecturing from on high, so if we could move on from that notion, plz?

And how effective is that in adjusting attitudes or changing patterns of behaviour?

― King of Snake (j-rock), Friday, September 11, 2009 12:15 PM

i'm only pointing out that the protesters aren't the only ones with their fingers in their ears going "lalalala". i don't think anyone intends to change the laws of jamaica by telling a singer to stfu when he rolls thru a town. they simply want the singer to stfu.

People should always be called out on hateful garbage like this, but simply canceling shows and lecturing aren't doing anything constructive to change attitudes.

I don't think the primary concern is changing attitudes in Jamaica; I think the primary concern is the people operating a venue saying "we do not people to think we condone this attitude".

we need more seminars, like the juggalos

Maybe the civil rights organization behind the planned boycotts of those venues could try to engage Mr. Banton a little more directly?

We should just send them both a link to this thread.

hugs not thugs

i ain't gonna play sun city

I don't think the primary concern is changing attitudes in Jamaica; I think the primary concern is the people operating a venue saying "we do not people to think we condone this attitude".

^^^ truthbomb

what happened to my "want"

oh well, the gist should be clear

what happened to my "want"

you never it

if buju banton would record a song abt macintosh computers and graduate degrees it would mollify me somewhat

Maybe the civil rights organization behind the planned boycotts of those venues could try to engage Mr. Banton a little more directly?

― kingkongvsgodzilla, Friday, September 11, 2009 12:40 PM

not everything can be solved by having two monsters battle, kingkongvsgodzilla

I want hugs from thugs.

British diplomat found strangled in Jamaican home in suspected gay-hate murder (11/09/2009)

A note was left on his blood-soaked body branding him a "batty man" - local slang for homosexual. A cord and piece of clothing were still around his neck.

No word on Banton's alibi.

We know he wasn't at First Ave.

brooklyn seems to dig capleton's lyrical content and between-song banter

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vylzh_-b1SU

wtf, it's machismo + monotheism, just like "white" homophobia. this idea that it's rooted in poverty is just fucked.

seriously wtf.

http://www.towleroad.com/2009/10/murder-music-singer-buju-banton-has-first-meeting-with-gay-advocates.html

real thoughtful comments on that article.

did he MURDER DEM?

It was before the dawn of time, but oO_Oo at stelfox and maybe more so at the space cleared for him. WTF, ol' ILX?

Okay, maybe I'm reading way too much into this, but...look at Buju Banton's hands in the photograph. He's making a sign over his crotch that some people use to indicate a vagina. And I invite you to try to sit that way yourself...it does not feel like a very natural position to me. I'm guessing Banton is making the sign to mock the folks in the photograph with him.

Posted by: peterparker | Oct 13, 2009 12:55:15 PM

http://api.ning.com/files/AlF29i7dC3Lhgz6dtRJOtF-zI6-gsTxWDb550OQ2bq*G5yWUR*G9rj0LYG5BLdi5Zc8RA9mnIWVDDRHCbNYXsAf-Tz79y37h/Haile_Selassie_G_0485.jpg

http://www.towleroad.com/2009/10/buju-banton-there-is-no-end-to-the-war-between-me-and-faggot.html

I want to hear Buju Banton's considered take on the Jan Moir furore.

fuck this guy imo

yeah it's really pretty much impossible to defend the dude at this point

this thread is filled with some amazingly condescending excuses for homophobia imo

coming from folks who would probably RAGE at length against the amount of instruments arcade fire dares to use on a song, or some other similarly big important social issue

just a thought

Okay, maybe I'm reading way too much into this, but...look at Buju Banton's hands in the photograph. He's making a sign over his crotch that some people use to indicate a vagina. And I invite you to try to sit that way yourself...it does not feel like a very natural position to me. I'm guessing Banton is making the sign to mock the folks in the photograph with him.

^^^^ i almost posted the exact same thing, it seems really weird!

remember omar, homophobia or even being a white power creep like some of those norway black metal dudes is no sin compared to being an semi-popular indie rock band that uncool ppl like

^^^^ i almost posted the exact same thing, it seems really weird!

― a perfect urkel (gbx), Saturday, October 17, 2009 5:06 PM

even after seeing the pic i posted?

incisive political cartoons inna dancehall style

http://www.jamaicaobserver.com/magazines/Entertainment/images/20091015T200000-0500_161898_OBS__NO_END_TO_THE_WAR_BETWEEN_ME_AND_THE_GAYS___BUJU_TELLS_MUTA_1.jpg

It's "Gary."

http://www.alfingers.com/news/busy-signal-gary/

so much evolving going right now

http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/us-news-blog/2012/may/18/beenie-man-rap-gay-rights

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W90Moq_InEc

i don't even know what this is supposed to mean

http://www.jamaicaobserver.com/assets/8071090/ed-cart-thursday-17-may.jpg

i'm not completely convinced. just a reminder that last time beenie "apologized" he came out with this right after:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5NDcksC0wQ

hell of a bellybutton on that gay community

why is beenie man wearing a stethoscope?

because he is The Doctor

Beenie looks away from the camera too much to make me think he feels it in his heart, but he feels it in his head.

The 100% cynical response of the people in the Observer video is probably otm, unfortunately.

The US recently cancelled the visas of a couple of dancehall acts and governments within the Caribbean, including Barbados and St Lucia, have started to refuse big-name stars work permits to play there.

Irrespective of whether it's heartfelt or not, it's still the right message.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dwS82qLToI

evolution is obfuscation, per crit darling (and upcoming no doubt collaborator - can't wait) busy

"link with the rainbow" seems pretty clear to me, but yeah most artists avoid directly targeting homosexuals these days because of all the visa issues

Buju Banton is undeniably gay

http://www.examiner.com/article/beenie-man-denies-apologizing-to-homosexuals-fellow-artistes-react-to-video

http://images.wikia.com/runescape/images/1/1f/Emoticon-Facepalm.gif back to the drawing board...

smgdh

it got kind of buried under the anderson cooper and frank ocean stories, but diana king ("shy guy") came out of the closet this week, too

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/05/diana-king-comes-out-jama_n_1652189.html?utm_hp_ref=mostpopular

cool.

I like her description of homophobia as a "heavy burden".