The very real possibility that vinyl will outlive CD - T or F?

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it would have seemed crazy a few years ago, but now it seems like it could happen...there's been pretty good news in the vinyl market for the past couple of years...here's a wired article that goes thru some of the basics:

http://www.wired.com/entertainment/music/commentary/listeningpost/2007/10/listeningpost_1029

but that jibes with anecdotal stuff i hear from friends that are in bands that tour a lot, sell usually 2 to 1 vinyl and to younger kids too, not just older hipster dudes.

not that it's ever going to be true crazy mass market again, but i think it's a smaller market that can survive and thrive...

the biggest thing for me is that there are a lot of people that LOVE vinyl...no one really *loves* CDs in the same way i think and that will probably be the difference in the end...dudes will literally lose money just to do vinyl

M@tt He1ges0n, Monday, 19 November 2007 21:41 (6 years ago) Permalink

but that jibes with anecdotal stuff i hear from friends that are in bands that tour a lot, sell usually 2 to 1 vinyl and to younger kids too, not just older hipster dudes.

i have never heard this from friends in bands

Jordan, Monday, 19 November 2007 21:44 (6 years ago) Permalink

i think it depends on the genre a little, noisier type stuff i think in general does better on vinyl.

M@tt He1ges0n, Monday, 19 November 2007 21:45 (6 years ago) Permalink

TRUE

ian, Monday, 19 November 2007 21:46 (6 years ago) Permalink

true

omar little, Monday, 19 November 2007 21:46 (6 years ago) Permalink

classical sells only on cd, so that's not going.

Frogman Henry, Monday, 19 November 2007 21:47 (6 years ago) Permalink

It's more than possible, it's probable.

As I've said before, Downloading will replace CDs as a sort of 'paperback' option, and LPs will revive as a Hardback format.

You remember your 90s albums, and how for the most part they were rubbish pressings in flimsy cardboard.

Check the LPs in HMV now, they're hard card gatefold in heavy vinyl.

Some are pricy, sure. Some are around the £16 mark.

Mark G, Monday, 19 November 2007 21:52 (6 years ago) Permalink

(I saw the Beatles "Love" set for £49 new, I mean that they go down to around £16)

Mark G, Monday, 19 November 2007 21:53 (6 years ago) Permalink

This is great and all, but I hope that this 'resurgence' doesn't merely serve to drive vinyl prices up. I'm kinda tired of seeing regular length, new releases at $20+ dollars.

will, Monday, 19 November 2007 21:56 (6 years ago) Permalink

<i>I'm kinda tired of seeing regular length, new releases at $20+ dollars.

-- will, Monday, November 19, 2007 9:56 PM (53 seconds ago) Bookmark </i>

i just bought comicopera by robert wyatt on vinyl new and it was either 15.99 for the CD or 19.99 for the vinyl because it's a double LP on account of the length, but was a no brainer for me for $4 more, packaging is great, the fourth (unused) side doesn't have any grooves, just an inscription of some lines from (i'm assuming) from a book...

buying vinyl + illegal download for my ipod is my preferred format now.

M@tt He1ges0n, Monday, 19 November 2007 21:57 (6 years ago) Permalink

I hear you. I want to sing Merge's praises for letting me download GaGaGaGa Ga for free after purchasing the vinyl. Are they doing that for all their releases? And shouldn't everybody?

My sweet mother hooked me up with a USB turntable for my last birthday. I don't think I've actually purchased a CD in 3 or 4 years.

will, Monday, 19 November 2007 22:01 (6 years ago) Permalink

buying vinyl + illegal download for my ipod is my preferred format now.

I do this mostly & also a lot of new vinyl has either a download coupon hidden inside or a CD version.

Eyeball Kicks, Monday, 19 November 2007 22:02 (6 years ago) Permalink

Me too, tho I am mainly buying 7" singles, which don't seem to have the 'download also' option. Even the dreaded new Interpol album came with a CD version with artwork which was nice...

Bill E, Monday, 19 November 2007 22:18 (6 years ago) Permalink

yeah that's awesome too...blonde redhead - 23 had that and also caribou, real handy...

the new bottomless pit and shellac had CDs in them

M@tt He1ges0n, Monday, 19 November 2007 22:18 (6 years ago) Permalink

quotes from me! lolz

Shakey Mo Collier, Monday, 19 November 2007 22:20 (6 years ago) Permalink

This is great and all, but I hope that this 'resurgence' doesn't merely serve to drive vinyl prices up. I'm kinda tired of seeing regular length, new releases at $20+ dollars.

deluxe gatefold 180g vinyl pressing of our new record: http://www.parasol.com/catalog/catalog.asp?zoomtitle=856780

Shakey Mo Collier, Monday, 19 November 2007 22:22 (6 years ago) Permalink

hmmm fucked that up. anyway the record is $10. free MP3 download included.

Shakey Mo Collier, Monday, 19 November 2007 22:23 (6 years ago) Permalink

bless you.

will, Monday, 19 November 2007 22:30 (6 years ago) Permalink

I sure hope downloading doesn't replace CDs - unless dl'd audio files sound less shitty someday.

Vinyl's great and I'm sure it'll never die, but it's a pain in the ass. (Plus, all those great comps of old music, like at acerecords.co.uk - those ain't on vinyl)

morris pavilion, Monday, 19 November 2007 23:18 (6 years ago) Permalink

yeah i still like cds okay for some stuff like boxsets it is nice, but i need a new cd player.

M@tt He1ges0n, Monday, 19 November 2007 23:19 (6 years ago) Permalink

box sets are basically the only CDs I'm willing to buy these days

Shakey Mo Collier, Monday, 19 November 2007 23:31 (6 years ago) Permalink

i just got a new cd player and it does make a big difference. before i was playing stuff on my computer and things didn't sound so hot. now i want to play CDs!

i hardly ever buy CDs though. usually just comps and reissues that i can't get on vinyl. and i try to get that stuff by trading crappy promo stuff. that's the thing with me. i have no problem spending hundreds of dollars on records, but i HATE paying for CDs.

i do listen to CDs all the time. cuzza review work. which is why i feel kinda stupid that i have gone this long without a real cd player. even crappy stuff sounds better!

scott seward, Monday, 19 November 2007 23:51 (6 years ago) Permalink

i have embraced the paid download wholeheartedly. i still buy quite a bit of secondhand vinyl but the days of me purchasing physical copies of most music is looking numbered more and more each day

i find vinyl incredibly frustrating as a format really

electricsound, Monday, 19 November 2007 23:57 (6 years ago) Permalink

why is vinyl frustrating. i still find opening the plastic on a new cd much more frustrating.

scott seward, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 00:04 (6 years ago) Permalink

i DO like my CDs! here are some:

scott seward, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 00:08 (6 years ago) Permalink

here are some more:

scott seward, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 00:09 (6 years ago) Permalink

blurry. i must be shaky.

scott seward, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 00:09 (6 years ago) Permalink

so how is that Yella solo album

Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 00:09 (6 years ago) Permalink

i've sold or traded literally THOUSANDS of CD's, so if i still own something after ten years or more than it must be one of the greatest albums EVER. some i would never part with. i have a core couple of hundred that i would never sell. most NEW stuff i buy that isn't a reissue is gone in 6 months.

i need more shelves. i've never been able to look at everything at a glance. they always get stuck in boxes.

scott seward, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 00:11 (6 years ago) Permalink

still love my tapes too:

scott seward, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 00:13 (6 years ago) Permalink

frustrating because it's such a crapshoot - the amount of records i buy that have problems with distortion, dodgy pressings, mastered slow/fast.. i'm not one of those chumps that finds these things endearing.

electricsound, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 00:13 (6 years ago) Permalink

tho a well pressed record is an absolute joy, no fooling

electricsound, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 00:14 (6 years ago) Permalink

just buy test pressings. and white label promos.

scott seward, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 00:15 (6 years ago) Permalink

Son of Bazerk!

I had to get rid of most of my tapes recently. sound quality seriously deteriorates with those.

Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 00:15 (6 years ago) Permalink

my 45s get along okay with my CDs. though they are kinda segregated.

scott seward, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 00:17 (6 years ago) Permalink

i've never listened to that KISS boxed set. is it worth anything? if it is it needs a new home.

scott seward, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 00:17 (6 years ago) Permalink

i still buy tons of cds, a lot more than vinyl. (btw have we talked about this elsewhere? maybe the "do you still buy vinyl thread"? though this is a more specific question.)

i totally see the logic of the vinyl + illegal download approach, makes a lot of sense. i just don't really download because i'm mainly on the computer at work. i imagine i might someday do that, however.

for right now, though, while vinyl is definitely making a comeback (DC now has a decent amount of mostly-or-exclusively-vinyl shops), cds are still what is more widely available in terms of selection. plus the convenience -- since i don't really download even though i use an ipod, cds make the most practical sense for me. i do really like vinyl, though.

i certainly hope that cds don't go away soon, though. i don't imagine they'll go at the rate some people would have you believe, though. do cd sales still account for the majority of music purchases? i bet they do, though i could be wrong. once mp3s really start outselling cds, then i'll expect them to become extinct at a faster rate.

i actually like cd packaging, too. sure it's not as nice as vinyl, but there are some cd packages that are great. i love digipacks especially.

Mark Clemente, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 00:18 (6 years ago) Permalink

what i've really been enjoying tonight is Rufus's Uku-Bot.

scott seward, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 00:20 (6 years ago) Permalink

is that the Pere Ubu 7" box set, Scott?

dan selzer, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 00:22 (6 years ago) Permalink

i don't wish death on cds at all. i was more just surprised that you could even make the argument now and it makes sense, where like 10 years ago people would have been like u crazy...but i do love vinyl the best, but yeah i'd rather listen to cds on my good sounding stereo than mp3s thru a computer any day.

M@tt He1ges0n, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 00:22 (6 years ago) Permalink

Now for pics of Scott's vinyl!!

Herman G. Neuname, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 00:26 (6 years ago) Permalink

yes it is, dan! there is a woman on the island here who said she had something to do with putting that out. she lives with some guy who was in cornershop? and who works with the xecutioners? my memory is bad. she used to manage bands in seattle or something and worked for a label. it takes all kinds.

scott seward, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 00:28 (6 years ago) Permalink

i posted pics of my new record shelves on the ikea thread on ile. four years of having my stuff in semi-storage/boxes/closets and i finally get to let it all out to breathe.

scott seward, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 00:40 (6 years ago) Permalink

and i always have my hi roller ready and filled with records in case i get a last minute call to play a house party in zurich. my partner dj poopsalot is ready at a moment's notice as well.

scott seward, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 00:41 (6 years ago) Permalink

whoops wrong picture

scott seward, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 00:41 (6 years ago) Permalink

now playing: gary farr

scott seward, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 00:43 (6 years ago) Permalink

i have a question about these shelves, scott~

how many records do they each hold?

omar little, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 00:45 (6 years ago) Permalink

my old ikea ones--which are not made anymore--are busted and held up by two useless old speakers.

omar little, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 00:45 (6 years ago) Permalink

i think the big ones hold about 2500 records? something like that. each box holds like a hundred records.

scott seward, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 00:51 (6 years ago) Permalink

nice!

omar little, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 00:55 (6 years ago) Permalink

Another in the "still mostly buys CDs" camp. I started buying music in the late eighties, mainly on cassette, and considered CDs the format you graduated to and vinyl what you bought if you were looking for something used and cheap.

Because they were expensive and shiny with rainbow colors I thought CDs were awesome as a kid. My three-year-old nieces do as well; I don't know if they've ever seen a vinyl record though. Of course, I was fascinated by watching spinning vinyl when I was their age. Later, when I started buying my own CDs, it would be really novel when the label had artwork instead of just text. I liked putting the CD in the boombox and watching it spin through the window — The Cure's Mixed Up, being a bunch of paints bleeding into each other, looked especially great this way. Then like they did with cassette cases, record labels started using clear trays so you could see behind, which provided another artwork opportunity.

Since CDs are more or less omnipresent now and don't win for convenience compared to MP3s, I can see them falling by the wayside, though I hope they don't any time soon. At the end of the day I still think of CDs as being more archival, although CDs are made of different parts stuck together, which records basically aren't. But I've had very few CDs ever fail over the years, and though vinyl wins in the charm category it is pretty fragile.

I do wonder if in the future CDs will be quaint like floppy discs (remembered as a data storage device) or like, say, cassettes. Japan makes all the mini-LP CDs designed to reproduce the original vinyl package; it's hard to imagine CD jewel cases being aped in any other format unless someone wanted to do something wacky with vinyl. That would be quite a switcheroo — sort of like if someone had the idea to do the Blue Monday 12" package now instead of in 1983.

That said, I'd be a little surprised if vinyl outlives CD by that much — eventually people who bought music as a physical object are going to pass on, and all these objects will seem like player pianos or something. This makes me kind of sad for my collection, which'll end up in some landfill, recycled, or at best in someone's basement or attic.

eatandoph, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 01:01 (6 years ago) Permalink

our other big ikea shelf has books on it. we have two of the smaller ones. the other smaller one has a mix of books and records like the one above. we still need more bookshelves. all the books are two deep. and i've still got records in closets. i had old home depot type shelves that i put in my office closet. not perfect, but it'll do for now.

scott seward, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 01:02 (6 years ago) Permalink

Vinyl nostalgia will last forever, but there will also before or since be a wave of CD nostalgia that will last forever. So, no.

Geir Hongro, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 01:07 (6 years ago) Permalink

scott how often do those in the depths of some of these bookshelves get played?

Mark Clemente, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 01:10 (6 years ago) Permalink

can i come over and hang out, scott?

Emily Bjurnhjam, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 01:19 (6 years ago) Permalink

you'd be surprised! i play a lot of music. not as much as i used to cuzza time constraints, but still, a lot.

scott seward, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 01:19 (6 years ago) Permalink

that's great!

Mark Clemente, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 01:20 (6 years ago) Permalink

you can all come over! once i get a day off. and my kids are in school. and i am not dog tired all the time. then we will party.

scott seward, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 01:20 (6 years ago) Permalink

"That said, I'd be a little surprised if vinyl outlives CD by that much — eventually people who bought music as a physical object are going to pass on, and all these objects will seem like player pianos or something."

never underestimate the appeal of a "physical object". i'll give you three examples from the closet:

scott seward, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 01:23 (6 years ago) Permalink

also: i think the niche market for vinyl will only increase, while the cd-buying public still keeps growing smaller. my music purchasing nowadays mainly consists of my emusic subscription and perusing vinyl bins, and sometimes buying vinyl at shows. i haven't bought a cd since i think march. however, i do get a lot of free cds from work, and my ipod is currently busted so i've been listening to cds in the car/while running, so there is that. overall though, i'm either in the living room curled up with a record, or i'm listening on the compy. and so it goes.

Emily Bjurnhjam, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 01:27 (6 years ago) Permalink

driving -- this is one area where i will continue to use cds for a long time. the ipod-radio-frequency thing doesn't work too well and doesn't sound very good. considering i just got my car last year, i will continue to use cds in the car for as long as i have this car. hopefully that'll be a while. toyotas last a long time.

Mark Clemente, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 01:31 (6 years ago) Permalink

our tape decks are busted in both cars for the time being, so i just listen to the radio. although i wouldn't mind having a cd player in the car.

scott seward, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 01:36 (6 years ago) Permalink

CDs deteriorate and will become unplayable. some made in the 80's are already doing this. as they become useless, digital files will replace them. vinyl will still be just fine 100 years from now, and there will be some insane motherfuckers still collecting it and hopefully deejaying with it then. vinyl will win yet again.

pipecock, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 01:52 (6 years ago) Permalink

the only cds i've seen deteriorate have been from the PDO plant, the ones made with bad lacquer. and i had an edwyn collins 2cd that inexplicably delaminated in a weird spiderweb pattern. but the rest seem fine.

GOTT PUNCH II HAWKWINDZ, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 02:49 (6 years ago) Permalink

fuck PDO.. wouldn't be so bad if not for all those vinyl japan discs that are fucked up and won't be reissued

electricsound, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 02:59 (6 years ago) Permalink

Everyone's a vinyl fetishist and creates a huge vinyl collection that they worship.

Then they try and move it and suddenly hard drives seem really sweet.

(Scott is the great exception. Scott is beyond good and evil.)

Ned Raggett, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 03:01 (6 years ago) Permalink

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/1999/01/14/DD86984.DTL&type=tech_article

some say that this was corrected, some don't. i know CDRs have a really bad problem, i have ones that are less than 10 years old and they are dead. they were not cheapos either!

pipecock, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 03:08 (6 years ago) Permalink

never underestimate the appeal of a "physical object". i'll give you three examples from the closet:

I'm sure there will be people collecting such items more or less forever, but I'm not sure about more of them being manufactured. The longevity of CDs as collector objects I'm not sure about — I suppose it'll depend on how people in the future appreciate the relatively small pocket of time they dominated (unless we're all wrong and CDs actually keep going a couple more decades).

About classical on vinyl: as far as I know no one ever represses old recordings. I do know a librarian who doesn't bother with CDs and just collects pristine classical records, but he also runs a rare book collection. I wonder how many people find the classical experience better or more "authentic" on vinyl: to a large extent the music predated physical media (Scott's opera sets all exceptions, as it happens), so the authenticity doesn't seem to matter that much unless you're attracted to particular interpretations, conductors and players (as people are, of course).

CDs deteriorate and will become unplayable. some made in the 80's are already doing this. as they become useless, digital files will replace them.
Collectors might still care about things like the fancy jewel case for Pet Shop Boys' Very, though. Those CDs that have deteriorated were poorly manufactured — as far as I know there's no CD rot among my 1500 or so discs. But I don't think anyone knows how long CDs in general really will last. In principle I understand why vinyl should last longer as an object, but in terms of listening I doubt it can achieve the transparency of digital audio (for those who value it). For that, sure, you have digital files that will last forever provided they keep being moved around, since no storage device really has permanence. It's not impossible to imagine certain things being "forgotten" in the process, though.

Apologies for verbosity ("It's so bodacious to be loquacious").

Multiple x-posts (I just wanted to try typing "x-post" and see what it felt like)

eatandoph, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 03:20 (6 years ago) Permalink

No one's suggesting that CDs will be supplanted by a higher quality storage medium? This is probably as big a shock from what would've been said 10 years ago as saying LPs would return. You'll have to pry my iPod from my cold dead fingers, but I still prefer CDs for sound quality. (And I've never been without a turntable connected to my system since I started buying music 30+ years ago, but I really don't buy vinyl any more unless it's something I'm only casually interested in and cheap.)

nickn, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 04:35 (6 years ago) Permalink

"No one's suggesting that CDs will be supplanted by a higher quality storage medium?

-- nickn"

i think people have learned their lesson in digital hard copies. there will always be something "better" in terms of specs, so keeping digital stuff all soft is much more efficient, especially as storage gets cheaper and cheaper. the ipod like device will remain pretty good for a while, but will get larger and larger storage capacity, lower power consumption, and different decoding algorithims. at some point im sure DVD quality audio will be able to be played from a personal player like that. but the songs will all be purchased soft.

LPs never left for them to have to return! if you want good sound quality, digital is ALWAYS an approximation of the analogue waveform. vinyl IS the analogue waveform.

pipecock, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 04:39 (6 years ago) Permalink

vinyl IS the analogue waveform.

it really isn't.

electricsound, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 04:42 (6 years ago) Permalink

"vinyl IS the analogue waveform.

it really isn't.

-- electricsound"

youre right, it is a digital approximation of the analogue waveform. or not.

pipecock, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 04:49 (6 years ago) Permalink

I meant "return" as in return to dominance. I still wonder about bandwidth for downloading CD-quality (or better) digital music. Are we there yet?

x-post here
And vinyl is also an approximation of the actual analogue waveform (which is *never* vinyl). And not necessarily a better one than CD.

I'm thinking in the future maybe some solid-state memory version of albums that you plug into a player, where there's no moving parts so that portability is equal to mp3s.

nickn, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 04:50 (6 years ago) Permalink

"And vinyl is also an approximation of the actual analogue waveform (which is *never* vinyl). And not necessarily a better one than CD.

-- nickn"

that is news to me. when you record something, you turn it into a voltage which is a continuous waveform. any "approximations" are errors in the recording which would also be present digitally. in digital music, that voltage is then sent through an A-D converter which will be limited in frequency and dynamic depth much moreso than the original waveform. then you store that, and then D-A that signal into something that is an approximation of the waveform. analogue just stores that continuous waveform as it was recorded! sure, there are some limitations to the vinyl medium, but i dont think it is nearly as much to worry about.

pipecock, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 04:56 (6 years ago) Permalink

A waveform in the air is not a waveform on vinyl. Air->microphone->voltage->lathe->master->stamped vinyl is a long chain of degradation.

And aren't most recordings nowadays done on digital recording devices anyway? That prized indie vinyl was probably produced from a string of ones and zeroes, so you may as well not degrade it any more by going the lathe->master->stamped vinyl route but rather going straight to the best digital form you can get.

nickn, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 05:14 (6 years ago) Permalink

"And aren't most recordings nowadays done on digital recording devices anyway?"

all convert an analogue signal to a digital one. to the best of my knowledge, there isnt anything that can record as 1's and 0's.

"That prized indie vinyl was probably produced from a string of ones and zeroes, so you may as well not degrade it any more by going the lathe->master->stamped vinyl route but rather going straight to the best digital form you can get.

-- nickn"

that is assuming that said band/artist used digital recording, which is likely but not certain. i know some people who own a recording studio that has all analogue equipment so i know there are some people who are still interested in recording analogue style.

pipecock, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 05:18 (6 years ago) Permalink

The point is that once a signal is converted to digital, you can't remake it as analog without suffering the problems you were concerned with initially (this: "if you want good sound quality, digital is ALWAYS an approximation of the analogue waveform. vinyl IS the analogue waveform.")

But I don't want to get into a vinyl vs. CD battle, I originally posted to decry the race from decent sound (CDs) to just barely acceptable sound (mp3s). I really don't think vinyl will come back in any form comparable to the 70s, for example.

nickn, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 05:26 (6 years ago) Permalink

http://www.archives.gov/records-mgmt/initiatives/temp-opmedia-faq.html

6. How long can I expect my recorded CDs/DVDs to last?

CD/DVD experiential life expectancy is 2 to 5 years even though published life expectancies are often cited as 10 years, 25 years, or longer. However, a variety of factors discussed in the sources cited in FAQ 15, below, may result in a much shorter life span for CDs/DVDs. Life expectancies are statistically based; any specific medium may experience a critical failure before its life expectancy is reached. Additionally, the quality of your storage environment may increase or decrease the life expectancy of the media. We recommend testing your media at least every two years to assure your records are still readable.

that might be a little alarmist ("statistically based" + they may actually be talking about CD-ROMS?), but i think it's accurate to say that people are discovering that CDs have a shorter lifespan than what manufacturers originally claimed, much shorter than vinyl at least. and then with digital files, who knows what you'll have to migrate how often in order to keep it playable in twenty years. hard to argue with vinyl as a longer-term investment that actually works, not just a physical 'collectible' object.

strgn, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 07:37 (6 years ago) Permalink

Oh no, Vinyl Japan stuff is no good? How old are we talking here? I have a bunch of mid/late-90s Flaming Stars CDs which I haven't listened to in an age but still consider somewhat treasured possessions.

I've also got a lot of self-released / small pressing CD-Rs in a drawer somewhere, most of which are now unavailable and some of which are getting pretty old in CD-R terms. I'm a bit scared to see how many of those are now dead, but at some point I'd better get them mp3ed, if not transferred losslessly.

a passing spacecadet, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 10:17 (6 years ago) Permalink

I had a CDR with some early Southpark episodes, along with the original original ones (the christmas card one, where "Kenny" is the fat kid), dug it out not so long ago and even though it had been stored in a perfectly benign storage space, the disc was completely transparent and unreadable.

Mark G, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 10:26 (6 years ago) Permalink

I though the CD deteroriation problem was only with the very first CDs, and the problem has been solved ever since. None of my late 80s or early 90s CDs have had any problems, except if they've been physically scratched. Has anyone actually come across a deteriorated original CD? Burned CDs are obviously a different case, I think they last for a shorter time. Strgn's link most likely refers to those.

Tuomas, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 10:33 (6 years ago) Permalink

(x-post)

Tuomas, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 10:33 (6 years ago) Permalink

sure, there are some limitations to the vinyl medium, but i dont think it is nearly as much to worry about.

The limitations to vinyl are certainly something to worry about if you're a mastering engineer! Sum to mono below about 80Hz, roll off completely below that, HF response tails off pretty rapidly about 15k for most releases, never better than 70-75dB dynamic range - it all adds up to a greater set of limitations than the much-maligned CD.

However, it doesn't necessarily mean that those restrictions are as deleterious to sound quality as the hard limits of 16/44.1 digital - they can actually be pretty euphonic (and they force the cutting engineer to be pretty creative and careful in order to attain the best possible results for any given slab of wax).

Even in the world of all-analogue recording/mixing, dubbing the stereo master to 24/96k digital HDD using good convertors would seem to be the way to go (it's like pouring a large jug into a bucket). And you can dither/noise-shape/SRC that down to CD standard with surprisingly little loss of audible material (like pouring the bucket into a deceptively-wide conical flask, with a bit of drippage down the side). Getting it on to vinyl is a bit more like a long series of tubes and valves, drip-drip-dripping it into a milk bottle that's still got some old milk in it. I'm all about the bad analogies today.

Michael Jones, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 10:44 (6 years ago) Permalink

haha

otm

electricsound, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 11:08 (6 years ago) Permalink

Anyway, the 15 year average life span mentioned by this Albini guy (in the article Pipecock linked to) seems patently untrue, in 1992 I think there were already millions of CDs sold, you'd think someone would've noticed if they had started to deteriorate in large quantities.

Tuomas, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 11:11 (6 years ago) Permalink

this Albini guy

oh Tuomas I love you
(no, there isn't much reason why someone who doesn't like "rock" should know/care who Albini is, just a bit surprised after all these years on ILX...)

CDs were a decade old in 1992 but they hadn't been widely available for very long at all. My father has slight delusions of audiophilia and we got a CD player before anyone else I knew except his totally dedicated hi-fi buff friend; that must've been 91, I think. And there've been articles about CD rot going round for as long as ILM's been going. So even if 15 years is a fair estimate it'd still be possible that we hadn't yet hit the point where the general public would start noticing en masse that their oldest CDs don't work. I wouldn't be surprised if we start seeing more and more of that over the next few years.

I have a very few 15-year-old CDs myself, but how often do I drag out the old ones now? Not very at all. They might all be unplayable, I'd have no idea.

a passing spacecadet, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 11:29 (6 years ago) Permalink

But if the "average" age of a CD was 15 years, like that guys suggests, then the majority of CDs that were made in 1992 or earlier would be useless now, and I think someone would've noticed such a massive phenomenon.

I play my old CDs all the time (I have converted only a few of the on my computer), and there seems to be nothing wrong with them. My oldest CDs are from 1982 or 1983, and even those work fine.

Tuomas, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 11:41 (6 years ago) Permalink

I want to sing Merge's praises for letting me download GaGaGaGa Ga for free after purchasing the vinyl. Are they doing that for all their releases? And shouldn't everybody?

Yes, and I really wish I had had this option with the Robert Wyatt album because I am on vacation and really wanted to have it on the iPod, but didn't have time to rip it. Get on the ball, Domino!

also some discussion of CD deterioration on my "Data Migration" thread.

sleeve, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 15:35 (6 years ago) Permalink

They should have this in the back of Diaries, along with the port lists:

1991 - tiring, play out or burn to wavs

Mark G, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 15:37 (6 years ago) Permalink

I hope CDs don't go away simply so people can still have CD players and I can give people CD Rs. I know I could send them to people via e-mail or something, but I don't really have an online relationship with the majority of the people I know.

filthy dylan, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 15:38 (6 years ago) Permalink

Both formats (vinyl and CD) are dead.

abanana, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 15:51 (6 years ago) Permalink

explain pls.

Mark Clemente, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 16:02 (6 years ago) Permalink

Published a couple weeks before that Wired piece:

http://billboard.biz/bbbiz/content_display/industry/e3i26138003c343f1a1dd13ec2504e24872?imw=Y

Against all expectations, the vinyl album has refused to disappear into oblivion like the formats—cylinders, 78s, reel-to-reels and 8-track tapes—that fell before it. Numbers, in fact, show that it's actually enjoying renewed interest in the United States.

Vinyl is so fashionable right now that some retailers, like indie merchant Rob Roth of Fords, N.J.'s, Vintage Vinyl, are even predicting it will "outlast the CD." But others wonder if all the anecdotal testimony about vinyl's sales growth really amounts to a meaningful niche market, or whether the format is just the latest flavor in the industry's seemingly endless hype machine.

As one major-label distribution executive puts it, "I hear everyone talking about vinyl. But I just don't get it."

Sure, vinyl shows big growth percentages, but it's growing from an extremely small base. As of Oct. 28, vinyl albums have scanned 766,000 units—up 22.4% from the 612,000 units scanned in the corresponding period last year, according to Nielsen SoundScan. What's more, vinyl is outselling the cassette album, which has scanned 247,000 units year to date, by a little more than 3-to-1. But the vinyl album still consists of only 0.02% of total album sales. In contrast, digital sales are now 10.7% of album sales and increasing.

On the other hand, some say so much activity has been bubbling around vinyl in 2007, especially in the second half of the year, that it would be more prudent to await the final tallies of this year's data before assessing how the format is performing. That's because label executives almost unanimously say they are now putting out more vinyl.

xhuxk, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 16:11 (6 years ago) Permalink

They're still making cassette albums?

Mark G, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 16:13 (6 years ago) Permalink

so CDs still account for 90% of album sales? that's hardly dying, even if digital sales are steadily increasing.

Mark Clemente, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 16:15 (6 years ago) Permalink

Has anyone actually come across a deteriorated original CD?

"hello implant by eat static.
shame i will never be able to listen to you again due to that chronic case of rot."

apart from the odd PDO related crap, i love the cd format.
the ease of the format makes them the essential option for me.
if i had the time and space, and the right type of hi-fi, then i could continue with my vinyl collection, especially as its the de facto format for techno it seems in 2007, but family life and work makes this impractical.
having said that, i really hate digipacks, as those muthas just get messed up badly.
long live the new rounded corner super jewel box.

mark e, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 16:16 (6 years ago) Permalink

buying vinyl + illegal download for my ipod is my preferred format now.

matt h OTM i just need to get that ipod nowwww

69, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 16:19 (6 years ago) Permalink

This thread contains a disconcerting amount of wishful thinking.

The Reverend, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 16:21 (6 years ago) Permalink

They're still making cassette albums?

For sale in truckstops, gas stations, and Indian grocery stores (among possible other places), apparently. Though I'm not really sure how sales in those places wind up registering on SoundScan.

xhuxk, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 16:38 (6 years ago) Permalink

This thread contains a disconcerting amount of wishful thinking.

-- The Reverend, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 16:21 (11 minutes ago) Link

i'm not naive, i'm not saying that vinyl will become dominant in the market like CDs were in the 1990s, moving billions of units worldwide, etc...

i said "OUTLIVE"...and i still think that's right...i meant that as physical formats like CD decline, there's enough of of an small enthusiast/collector/audiophile market to make it survive long past the time CD is dead.

so no i'm not some silly pollyanna, i get that digital mp3 or some similar format will be the dominant format in the future, i was just observing that i think the odds are better that -- as a physical format -- vinyl will be being manufactured after CDs have stopped.

M@tt He1ges0n, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 16:40 (6 years ago) Permalink

Everyone's a vinyl fetishist and creates a huge vinyl collection that they worship.

Then they try and move it and suddenly hard drives seem really sweet.

(Scott is the great exception. Scott is beyond good and evil.)

-- Ned Raggett, Tuesday, November 20, 2007 3:01 AM (13 hours ago) Bookmark Link

i dunno it's not that hard to carry some crates of records once every few years.

M@tt He1ges0n, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 16:42 (6 years ago) Permalink

Sure, vinyl shows big growth percentages, but it's growing from an extremely small base. As of Oct. 28, vinyl albums have scanned 766,000 units—up 22.4% from the 612,000 units scanned in the corresponding period last year, according to Nielsen SoundScan. What's more, vinyl is outselling the cassette album, which has scanned 247,000 units year to date, by a little more than 3-to-1. But the vinyl album still consists of only 0.02% of total album sales. In contrast, digital sales are now 10.7% of album sales and increasing.

also take any Soundscan numbers for vinyl and double, maybe triple them to get the real number, as all the indie stores I go too -- which sell the majority of vinyl -- don't report to Soundscan.

M@tt He1ges0n, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 16:45 (6 years ago) Permalink

http://foetusized.org/cdrot.html

am0n, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 16:57 (6 years ago) Permalink

Yeah I recently threw away all my books, plus my couch. Too heavy!

Tracer Hand, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 17:01 (6 years ago) Permalink

never underestimate the appeal of a "physical object". i'll give you three examples from the closet:

-- scott seward, Monday, November 19, 2007 8:23 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Link

this is a goofy thread, so here's a goofy story. shit, i think i even told it to 69 when i met him, i probably sound like a windbag here.

moving apartments, we wanted to lighten the load and get some cash. sold a bunch of unwanted records and books. anth0ny from rad1o 4 was there rifling through piles of my records, pulling stuff for himself and his store. then this stylish woman in her twenties comes by and takes a look at a few titles and freaks out at me:

"OMG, you're selling these Bob Marley records for $5 each? You should be selling them for like.. $25 each at least!"

"Well, I'll tell you what, take all 6 for $20 or make me an offer, since I can see you're pretty excited to find them."

"Oh wow! But, but.. but I don't have a turntable.."

as she walked away, anth0ny just looked up and shook his head in disgust.

sanskrit, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 17:21 (6 years ago) Permalink

also take any Soundscan numbers for vinyl and double, maybe triple them to get the real number, as all the indie stores I go too -- which sell the majority of vinyl -- don't report to Soundscan.

This is a very important point.

ian, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 17:53 (6 years ago) Permalink

I bet everyone here who lives in a medium/ big city will tell you that the record shops they go to have reversed the vinyl/ CD proportion in the past few years - sure, CDs are still what most people buy, but that market is spread over supermarkets, video rental stores and Amazon; record shops don't get the 6 records a year guy anymore. I bet, of the total music spend of people who spend more than ¢1000 or its euro/ sterling/ yen equivalent a year breaks down in a much different way in terms of media, especially if you factor in second hand sales

sonofstan, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 18:23 (6 years ago) Permalink

thats a thousand bucksa year on music -

sonofstan, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 18:26 (6 years ago) Permalink

Has anyone actually come across a deteriorated original CD?

Since I worked @ the used record store, mid-late '80's, I've probably had over 1000 CDs through my hands, I can still name the three ones that deteriorated:

Todd Rundgren "Something-Anything" (castle reissue)
REM "Green"
Popol Vuh "For you and Me"

My oldest ones - "Liege & Lief", a Dvorak compilation and a couple of Darling Buds singles - still play great.

I like the format loads, though I think its potential for awesome sound quality been ill-used by record companies, many early ones being pressed from substandard/unsuitable tapes - listening copies, vinyl-mastered and so on - in a hurry to cash in on the CD reissue boom ASAP, more recent ones being flatline-mastered. It's a shame. I wish the format would last for ever and ever, but it obviously isn't going to. If a lossless format like .flac were to become prevalent, I'd be more into uh yer non-physical music format. I still like CDs though.

For me this is kind of academic in a way, probably 90% of the msuic I listen to (@ work) is on Youtube FFS, and that sounds like ass is perfectly tailored to computer speakers.

Pashmina, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 18:36 (6 years ago) Permalink

i think my oldest cd is 'achtung baby' and it still plays fine, though i think the last time i looked at it the playing surface appeared to be slightly mottled.

omar little, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 18:39 (6 years ago) Permalink

I bet everyone here who lives in a medium/ big city will tell you that the record shops they go to have reversed the vinyl/ CD proportion in the past few years - sure, CDs are still what most people buy, but that market is spread over supermarkets, video rental stores and Amazon; record shops don't get the 6 records a year guy anymore. I bet, of the total music spend of people who spend more than ¢1000 or its euro/ sterling/ yen equivalent a year breaks down in a much different way in terms of media, especially if you factor in second hand sales

-- sonofstan, Tuesday, November 20, 2007 10:23 AM (Tuesday, November 20, 2007 10:23 AM) Bookmark Link

Not everyone lives in a big city, though. As far as I know, in the northern suburbs of Seattle, there are exactly zero stores you can walk into and buy a new record, whereas there are dozens you can walk into and buy a new cd, although very few of them are actually music stores.

The Reverend, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 19:06 (6 years ago) Permalink

(I should add that I would happily be proven wrong.)

The Reverend, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 19:07 (6 years ago) Permalink

seattle's a medium-sized city, there has to be places where you can buy vinyl

Mark Clemente, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 19:09 (6 years ago) Permalink

the record shops they go to have reversed the vinyl/ CD proportion in the past few years

this is not the case in SF, at least not in Amoeba, which seems to be stocking fewer "rock" records, but roughly the same amount of hip-hop, dance, and jazz vinyl.

Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 19:10 (6 years ago) Permalink

there are a handful of other specialty shops though, that stock great vinyl (Aquarius, Open Mind, Grooves, etc.)

Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 19:11 (6 years ago) Permalink

seattle's a medium-sized city, there has to be places where you can buy vinyl

-- Mark Clemente, Tuesday, November 20, 2007 11:09 AM (Tuesday, November 20, 2007 11:09 AM) Bookmark Link

In Seattle, yes, but I didn't say you can't buy records in Seattle. Reread my last post.

The Reverend, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 19:15 (6 years ago) Permalink

ah yes

Mark Clemente, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 19:24 (6 years ago) Permalink

i can't be bothered to read this thread but yeah guys people who still buy vinyl need a heavy kick to the crotch, right?

DG, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 19:27 (6 years ago) Permalink

Naw, just skot.

The Reverend, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 19:29 (6 years ago) Permalink

Not everyone lives in a big city, though. As far as I know, in the northern suburbs of Seattle, there are exactly zero stores you can walk into and buy a new record, whereas there are dozens you can walk into and buy a new cd, although very few of them are actually music stores

xpost

Yeah, I think record stores - even in cities - are endangered species; big chains just as much as the little guys. It's only the young and/or obsessive that go to shops anymore.

sonofstan, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 19:39 (6 years ago) Permalink

REM "Green"

Interesting... I've had trouble with mine, too. I've have older cd's that seem fine though.

will, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 19:45 (6 years ago) Permalink

I'd say, actually, it's only the old and/or obsessive. My 17-y.o. sister never buys cds at all. She downloads all her music illegally.

xp

The Reverend, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 19:46 (6 years ago) Permalink

yeah, kids in general are not buying music in any format.

Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 19:47 (6 years ago) Permalink

Yeah, the same people who don't download are probably more comfortable going to a record store than ordering online. This is only a matter of time, though.

Jordan, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 19:47 (6 years ago) Permalink

i like the idea of REM cds rotting :D

DG, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 19:47 (6 years ago) Permalink

DG otm.

The Reverend, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 19:49 (6 years ago) Permalink

My 17-y.o. sister never buys cds at all.

I should amend this to cds, or records, or mp3s, or, or, or...

The Reverend, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 19:50 (6 years ago) Permalink

more anecdotal evidence:

I am on vacation in my home town in Virginia, there are three places here that carry new/used vinyl. I haven't been here in two years. The first place I checked out had moved all of their new vinyl to a more prominent location near the front of the store, but the amount was about the same. The next place had tons more used vinyl than before and the guy said sales had increased to the point that he now sells turntables. And I guarantee you he doesn't report to Soundscan either.

sleeve, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 20:01 (6 years ago) Permalink

Is it a bad sign that the latest Vinyl Anachronist column reads like a suicide note?

hawth, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 20:05 (6 years ago) Permalink

man i wish i thought sacd was going to make it, i hear great things

M@tt He1ges0n, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 20:12 (6 years ago) Permalink

xpost: Well, there's this:

I'm not going to worry about future generations embracing the LP and the turntable. (They seem to be doing that on their own, remarkably enough.)

WISHFUL THINKING.

Ned Raggett, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 20:15 (6 years ago) Permalink

My 17-y.o. sister never buys cds at all.

I should amend this to cds, or records, or mp3s, or, or, or..

check - 18 yo daughter with a full MP3 player, spends maybe €50 on music if that

xpost

sonofstan, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 20:18 (6 years ago) Permalink

€50 a year...

sonofstan, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 20:19 (6 years ago) Permalink

i don't even care that much about it. if sacd and/or digital playback gets great, then fine...but for me, i get the most bang for my buck -- sound quality-wise -- from vinyl and a turntable. i don't think that's romantic or irrational at all.

for about $1000 i got a great, small speaker, amp, and turntable setup that sounds amazing and to my ears better than cd or mp3. i realize that if i dropped like 10Gs or something i could probably get server or whatever and do flac but it sounds like too much work to me.

M@tt He1ges0n, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 20:21 (6 years ago) Permalink

Most people aren't going to spend a thousand dollars on a setup.

The Reverend, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 20:23 (6 years ago) Permalink

my gf just got a new CD/turntable/radio one-piece stereo for $70. It sounds better than her old CD boombox thing. They are on sale at B!-Mart, to my knowledge the first cheap new turntable in years that has been available in big box stores. Still more anecdotal evidence...

sleeve, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 20:29 (6 years ago) Permalink

Most people aren't going to spend a thousand dollars on a setup.

Not in one go, maybe, but that's what cool about separates - upgrade one bit at a time (that's what's shit too of course - it don't stop)

..... but you have a point Rev. - time was when any young couple with pretensions to being cultured would have a decent stereo set up as part of the living room furniture; now it its home cinema, with an ipod docking yoke as the sole concession to the idea of public music

xp

sonofstan, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 20:34 (6 years ago) Permalink

Would you say music has become something more private for most people then? Something relegated to earbuds and enjoyed in solitude?

The Reverend, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 20:53 (6 years ago) Permalink

Definitely - earbuds and driving or on computer speakers/ headphones while working much more than sitting down and listening while doing nothing else.

sonofstan, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 20:57 (6 years ago) Permalink

People doubting the young hipster crowd's interest in vinyl are so wrong! I live in a remarkably unhip college town, and even here, everyone who considers themself really "into" music has a turntable and thinks its cool to buy vinyl. I don't know anyone who buys cds (besides blank ones by the 50-pack.) Illegal MP3s for most new stuff, and vinyl for the fuzzy-happy-collecting feeling (don't underestimate the draw of that feeling.)

Yeah, most teenagers still haven't touched a turntable, but CDs are just disposable trash used for car-listening, not much else. They're waning in popularity whereas vinyl is on the rise. I think vinyl is definitely sticking around, at least, I'm not sure what what'll happen to the CD market.

later arpeggiator, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 21:12 (6 years ago) Permalink

I'm not doubting the young hipster crowd's vinyl enthusiasm, I'm doubting everyone else's.

The Reverend, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 21:23 (6 years ago) Permalink

The Garden State effect. Seriously (kinda). I, embarassingly, know of two people who bought turntables after seeing Natalie Portman's room in that movie.

jon /via/ chi 2.0, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 21:29 (6 years ago) Permalink

everyone who considers themself really "into" music has a turntable and thinks its cool to buy vinyl.

hence the need for a kick in the balls

DG, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 21:31 (6 years ago) Permalink

iPOD PEOPLE

ian, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 21:38 (6 years ago) Permalink

I don't know why you feel it necessarily to kick people in the balls for wanting to own a physical object that represents the music they love.

later arpeggiator, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 21:42 (6 years ago) Permalink

you sound like you need one too

DG, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 21:43 (6 years ago) Permalink

the soundscan stats count only vinyl LPs sold in soundscan locations. the amount of 12"s and other singles/EPs/underground albums that are sold in places that dont report to soundscan has to be double those figures. plus any used vinyl shops! alot of records still get sold, and it will continue to happen. i dont see that ever ending, people will still be making vinyl as well, even if on a small basis. compare that to CDs which will have no advantage compared to a higher resolution digital file, i just dont see why people would keep making them.

pipecock, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 21:48 (6 years ago) Permalink

there will be vinyl as long as pressing plants can afford to stay in business. there will be pressing plants as long as there are a billion suburban emo bands who want to put out a 7".

ian, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 21:51 (6 years ago) Permalink

(well, you know what i mean.)

ian, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 21:51 (6 years ago) Permalink

the big difference, which someone must have pointed out already, is that anyone can make a CD. very very few people can make an LP. things that anyone can make will probably outlive things that practically no one can make.

xpost

Tracer Hand, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 21:52 (6 years ago) Permalink

PEOPLE CAN'T DELETE RECORDS
PEOPLE DON'T BUY USED MP3S

sexyDancer, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 21:53 (6 years ago) Permalink

the big difference, which someone must have pointed out already, is that anyone can make a CD. very very few people can make an LP. things that anyone can make will probably outlive things that practically no one can make.

In the future, the only CDs we will use will be CDrs and we will use them just as we used floppy disks in the nineties.

ian, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 21:54 (6 years ago) Permalink

"In the future, the only CDs we will use will be CDrs and we will use them just as we used floppy disks in the nineties.

-- ian"

in the future? that sounds like today to me. i dont even need CDs in the car as my radio has a minijack plug on the front of it so i can play straight off my ipod or any other portable device. i use CDs primarily for listening to while i fall asleep, and for purchasing hardcopies of music that is not avalaible on vinyl that i must own.

pipecock, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 21:58 (6 years ago) Permalink

I've always liked portable cassettes the most. They sort of force you to listen to complete albums (or at least whole sides) because it's always such an inconvenience to fast forward/rewind/pause to leap between songs.

And I like the trebly sound and odd, accidental depth.

It's sad that they will probably be lost forever.

PhilK, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 21:59 (6 years ago) Permalink

I act like buying cultural artifacts is so horrible but I took an entire morning a month or so ago to go to the tea shop, walk around the corner to the record store, and buy the album I wanted on vinyl (new Liars album). It has a nicely designed insert and is pleasing to the eye on my floor! Also the tea was excellent and it was a beautiful morning, and people asked me what record I got because it wasn't a small cd case rolling around in a shopping bag.

mh, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 21:59 (6 years ago) Permalink

if petroleum prices go up, you won't

xposts

Catsupppppppppppppp dude 茄蕃, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 22:00 (6 years ago) Permalink

I like how half the people on this thread assume that the way they use and consume music is the exact way every other person on the planet uses and consumes music.

The Reverend, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 22:01 (6 years ago) Permalink

the way they use and consume music is the exact way every other person on the planet uses and consumes music.

.... or the way every other person on the planet should etc....

sonofstan, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 22:09 (6 years ago) Permalink

no wait, you guys are right. people will forget all about ipods and the idea of them being able to play better quality files in the future. people will stick with CDs. they will have huge collections of them just like people have of vinyl now. vinyl will die. along with you guys, thankfully.

pipecock, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 22:11 (6 years ago) Permalink

you definately need a kick in the balls

DG, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 22:11 (6 years ago) Permalink

DG--it wasn't funny the first time

later arpeggiator, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 22:13 (6 years ago) Permalink

What, are you 12 or something? xp

ian, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 22:14 (6 years ago) Permalink

don't just take my word for it

DG, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 22:15 (6 years ago) Permalink

Okay, I'm not going to engage in debate with someone who's going to wish death on me. It's not worth my stress.

The Reverend, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 22:16 (6 years ago) Permalink

This thread will be really interesting to read a decade from now, so I'm going to go ahead and give my future self in 2017 a shoutout. Sorry for all the dumb things I'll do.

I'm in the vinyl + downloading camp. Nearly all of my disposable income goes to records.

Z S, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 22:21 (6 years ago) Permalink

if drugs were cheaper i wouldnt download music

Catsupppppppppppppp dude 茄蕃, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 22:30 (6 years ago) Permalink

or I'd pay for it

Catsupppppppppppppp dude 茄蕃, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 22:31 (6 years ago) Permalink

I buy CD's these days pretty much solely to have a quality hard copy for albums i really really like so i can rip them to my computer at any time.

Vinyl will always be around and will outlive CD's, but I doubt the current resurgence of vinyl interest beyond that of serious music fans will last long.

The Garden State effect. Seriously (kinda). I, embarassingly, know of two people who bought turntables after seeing Natalie Portman's room in that movie.

-- jon /via/ chi 2.0, Tuesday, November 20, 2007 9:29 PM (29 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

Yes! Hahaha I know some people who did this too.

latebloomer, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 22:39 (6 years ago) Permalink

Probably worth noting, from one of the sidebars to that Billboard piece (which I edited, but what the hell):

No one is making new vinyl pressing machines. "We can't buy the machines anymore, so we rebuild them as we go," [United Record Pressing plant manager Dave] Jump says.
Likewise, some aspects of vinyl manufacturing are so specialized and bordering obsolete that at some plants, only one person is trained to perform certain functions. "We were going to put out an album in vinyl, but there was only one guy at the company who could glue the sleeve properly, but he hurt his arm, and they couldn't complete the album on time," one major-label head of sales says. "So we had to scramble and go elsewhere."
...In the last two years, two vinyl plants, 33 1/3 and Hub Servell, have closed their doors, one industry executive says."

xhuxk, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 22:55 (6 years ago) Permalink

I still buy just about anything.

scott seward - nice collection, of course, but how do you keep the youngster from tattering all your goodies. The only worn-out CD i have is a MP3 comp that spent less than 60 seconds in the presence of my two-year-old. My proper collection resides in a room i won't even let me boy into. Asshole; i know.

Michael Jones, on the consequence of format -- for some reason the thoughtful insights you share regarding format limitations are something i fear many engineers lack.

On deterioration. An associate at the record store i worked at back in the 80s would routinely throw her discs on the floor and step on them to prove the invincibility of the format. Ignoramus. I myself have never considered the CD a portable format and pity the fools who practice otherwise.

On MP3s - they sound crap at 192kbps to the point where i'd actually prefer a cassette. If you jack up the volume through a good stereo even low bit MP3s sound passable. I positively love the capacity as well as the ability to play tunes in 5+ hour slabs. Also, since most of these are e-pirated, at the end of the day, don’t really hold them in very high regard.

On the demise of CDs - I hope not, but, i really don't care. The bigger issue is hardware; as i doubt there are manufacturers that make disc players that really last. Sure, i know i can dump it all to a hard drive, but where's the fun in that?

On DVD/CD/MP3 players -- is it just me or does anybody else around here despise having to turn on the friggin' TELEVISION to navigate through an MP3 discs folders? Can’t you make me a little alphanumeric screen on the unit (or remote) so I can get around a little more precisely than dead reckoning?

On Ipods and digital devices-- once again, the bigger crime is the fact that these units are crap and offer no real safe harbor for archiving. Flash memory holds promise, but i'd sure as hell rather haul my stax around than have to manage some monster digital archive along with all it's requisite back-ups and hard copies. It's like that old Steven Wright joke about his "actual size" map (1 mile equals 1 mile).

christoff, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 23:00 (6 years ago) Permalink

maybe this is mean, but i'm always kinda rooting for the demise of everything.

love, that guy who buys old vhs tapes twenty at a time at yard sales

(CDs at yard sales are already treated like yesterday's meatballs. a quarter. fifty cents. people just want to get rid of them. more for me!)

scott seward, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 23:13 (6 years ago) Permalink

there's nothing sadder than cds of failed, anonymous major label acts.

omar little, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 23:14 (6 years ago) Permalink

owning a bunch of them comes pretty close

electricsound, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 23:27 (6 years ago) Permalink

cds left over once Tower closed to thread

sexyDancer, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 23:30 (6 years ago) Permalink

;_;

omar little, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 23:32 (6 years ago) Permalink

Cheap LPs always look potentially interesting - cheap CDs look beyond sad

sonofstan, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 23:35 (6 years ago) Permalink

anyone want some tripmaster monkey discs?

xpost

electricsound, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 23:35 (6 years ago) Permalink

cds left over once Tower closed to thread

-- sexyDancer, Tuesday, November 20, 2007 3:30 PM (Tuesday, November 20, 2007 3:30 PM) Bookmark Link

But what of the 88 leftover Celly Cell cassettes?

The Reverend, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 23:53 (6 years ago) Permalink

"Okay, I'm not going to engage in debate with someone who's going to wish death on me. It's not worth my stress.

-- The Reverend"

im not wishing, im guaranteeing it. unless somehow you are immortal.....

pipecock, Wednesday, 21 November 2007 00:38 (6 years ago) Permalink

along with you guys, thankfully.

omar little, Wednesday, 21 November 2007 00:40 (6 years ago) Permalink

ban pipecock.

W4LTER, Wednesday, 21 November 2007 00:49 (6 years ago) Permalink

BAN PIPECOCK, rather

W4LTER, Wednesday, 21 November 2007 00:51 (6 years ago) Permalink

It's like that old Steven Wright joke about his "actual size" map (1 mile equals 1 mile).

i think that was originally an umberto eco joke

sanskrit, Wednesday, 21 November 2007 01:52 (6 years ago) Permalink

George: But surely, Sir, you must allow me to at least try and save him.

Melchett: No, George. It would be as pointless as trying to teach a woman the value of a good, forward defensive stroke. Besides, it would take a superman to get him out of there, not the kind of weed who blubs just because somebody gives him a slice of rabbit pie instead of birthday cake.

George: Well, I suppose you're right, Sir.

Melchett: Course I am. Now let's talk about something more jolly, shall we? Look, this is the amount of land we've recaptured since yesterday.

[Melchett and George move over to the map table.]

George: Oh, excellent.

Melchett: Erm, what is the actual scale of this map, Darling?

Darling: Erm, one-to-one, Sir.

Melchett: Come again?

Darling: Er, the map is actually life-size, Sir. It's superbly detailed. Look, look, there's a little worm.

Melchett: Oh, yes. So the actual amount of land retaken is?

[Darling whips out a tape measure amd measures the table.]

Darling: Excuse me, Sir. Seventeen square feet, Sir.

caek, Wednesday, 21 November 2007 01:56 (6 years ago) Permalink

Borges short story too

sonofstan, Wednesday, 21 November 2007 02:00 (6 years ago) Permalink

even though i'm not really into vinyl per se my mom made me this awesome birthday cake because she knows i'm a big music fan:

latebloomer, Wednesday, 21 November 2007 14:21 (6 years ago) Permalink

(yes, that's a toothpick as the needle!)

i love my mom!

latebloomer, Wednesday, 21 November 2007 14:23 (6 years ago) Permalink

Awes.

The Reverend, Wednesday, 21 November 2007 14:23 (6 years ago) Permalink

haha that rules!

Mark Clemente, Wednesday, 21 November 2007 14:47 (6 years ago) Permalink

DON'T STACK VINYL HORIZONTALLY FOR GOD'S SAKE

Scik Mouthy, Wednesday, 21 November 2007 14:53 (6 years ago) Permalink

Uh-oh, skot has incurred the wrath of Sick Mouthy.

The Reverend, Wednesday, 21 November 2007 15:20 (6 years ago) Permalink

what, you mean my 45s? fuck my 45s. they'll outlive me. but i don't plan on keeping them there long. i just needed a place to put them for now. i need to find the right spot for them. i was sick of having them in boxes. i need to go through them all too. weed out the crap.

scott seward, Wednesday, 21 November 2007 15:22 (6 years ago) Permalink

THEY'LL WARP AND STUFF AND BE UNPLAYABLE - ALSO, HOW TO GET THE ONES AT THE BOTTOM OF THE PILE OUT??!!

Scik Mouthy, Wednesday, 21 November 2007 15:39 (6 years ago) Permalink

YOU DON'T WANT TO GET THEM OUT! THAT'S WHY THEY ARE AT THE BOTTOM!

Mark G, Wednesday, 21 November 2007 15:45 (6 years ago) Permalink

best configuration - stacked vertically end-to-end, obv

Tracer Hand, Wednesday, 21 November 2007 16:44 (6 years ago) Permalink

"THEY'LL WARP AND STUFF AND BE UNPLAYABLE"

oh please. maybe in 50 years! and i've bought plenty of 45s that had obviously been sitting in stacks like that for decades that were fine. they are hardy little beasts.

funny though - stayed at an old friend's house last nite and they had stacks of records in an outside room that were all stacked so that they were bending and i brought this to their attention. cuz it bugs me when i see things like that. turns out they didn't want them anyway so i ended up taking the ones i wanted out of the bunch! got some good stuff too!

scott seward, Wednesday, 21 November 2007 21:13 (6 years ago) Permalink

i want to find some good boxes for my 45s. i might just buy some from bags unlimited or something. that way i can seperate by genre, etc. and keep them in the closet. free up shelf space for more records or books.

scott seward, Wednesday, 21 November 2007 21:15 (6 years ago) Permalink

1 month passes...

from a guy that owns a local store in mpls:

last month, for the first time in 20 years, new vinyl sales grossed more than new cd sales at treehouse records! for the past several years, usually our top sales categories have looked like this, month after month:
#1. new cd's
#2. used records
#3 new records
#4 used cd's

in december, it went like this:
#1. used records
#2. new records
#3. new cd's
#4. used cd's

M@tt He1ges0n, Thursday, 10 January 2008 23:39 (6 years ago) Permalink

Not surprising at all, though: someone has surely said something like this upthread, but post-mp3, anyone spending money on physical-object music probably kinda likes the physical-object part, and the searching-for-it part, and the "buying the kind of music not immediately available from iTunes" part. CD market becomes mp3 market and vanishes; vinyl market remains vinyl market, and only becomes more interesting in contrast.

nabisco, Thursday, 10 January 2008 23:49 (6 years ago) Permalink

they need to make old and new vinyl cheaper though.

titchyschneiderMk2, Friday, 11 January 2008 00:06 (6 years ago) Permalink

eg - i want to buy old miles davis albums, and it would be nice if they were the same price 2nd hand on vinyl as on cd.

titchyschneiderMk2, Friday, 11 January 2008 00:24 (6 years ago) Permalink

look harder.

scott seward, Friday, 11 January 2008 00:31 (6 years ago) Permalink

what are you looking for?

scott seward, Friday, 11 January 2008 00:33 (6 years ago) Permalink

basic stuff i used to have like someday my prince will come, porgy and bess on vinyl. im sure my local 2nd hand shop will have them eventually for cheap (i got coltranes debut and herbie hancocks maiden voyage yesterday for 7 pounds total) but im impatient.

titchyschneiderMk2, Friday, 11 January 2008 00:39 (6 years ago) Permalink

look on-line. you can even find nice japanese vinyl reissues on ebay sometimes for less than a new cd.

scott seward, Friday, 11 January 2008 00:41 (6 years ago) Permalink

oh man my original 1st press of porgy and bess sounds so friggin good. yowza!

scott seward, Friday, 11 January 2008 00:42 (6 years ago) Permalink

the thing about itunes i mostly don't like is i never know what to get. it's hard to decide cuz there are so many options. i had a hell of a time trying to spend this $25 gift certificate i got for xmas.

i guess i like stores mostly not because i can go there and buy the stuff i wanted to get, but to buy the stuff i didn't know i wanted.

M@tt He1ges0n, Friday, 11 January 2008 00:42 (6 years ago) Permalink

i mean there are NEW vinyl reissues too. most are around 15 bucks or so.

http://cgi.ebay.com/MILES-DAVIS-QUIET-NIGHTS-GIL-EVANS-VINYL-LP-SEALED_W0QQitemZ250203499115QQihZ015QQcategoryZ306QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

x-post

scott seward, Friday, 11 January 2008 00:45 (6 years ago) Permalink

Music/record/clothing (esp. clothing!) shopping is a million times more fun IRL then it is online. Online shopping is great for finding deals on something you've always wanted and never found in IRL or which you can't find as cheaply.

Alex in SF, Friday, 11 January 2008 00:46 (6 years ago) Permalink

thanks for the link but postage from the US drives the prices up! you used to be able to pick up new vinyl reissues cheapish in central london shops but now even they only seem to be selling pricier old pressings for collectability.

titchyschneiderMk2, Friday, 11 January 2008 00:49 (6 years ago) Permalink

The fact that the exchange rate is ridiculous should be driving the prices DOWN.

Alex in SF, Friday, 11 January 2008 00:54 (6 years ago) Permalink

no, i know you are in the u.k. that was just a quick example. you can always check u.k. ebay.

scott seward, Friday, 11 January 2008 00:55 (6 years ago) Permalink

or u.k. record sellers on-line. not just ebay.

scott seward, Friday, 11 January 2008 00:56 (6 years ago) Permalink

This sucks! I don't know where to start with vinyl!

All my vinyl is shitty dollar records that I got at Goodwill and garage sales. None of which sounds better than a CD.

Whiney G. Weingarten, Friday, 11 January 2008 00:57 (6 years ago) Permalink

post-mp3, anyone spending money on physical-object music probably kinda likes the physical-object part, and the searching-for-it part, and the "buying the kind of music not immediately available from iTunes" part

Well, not Josh Groban fans...

xhuxk, Friday, 11 January 2008 01:02 (6 years ago) Permalink

look for clean vinyl! go to a good used record store.

chuck-post

scott seward, Friday, 11 January 2008 01:02 (6 years ago) Permalink

I'm not really into buying new vinyl unless it for sure comes with a download as well, I just don't listen to enough music at home.

Right now I just use it for out-of-print jazz stuff and the crate of records I took from my dad's old collection (some good jazz, Earth Wind & Fire, Aretha stuff, etc.).

Jordan, Friday, 11 January 2008 01:03 (6 years ago) Permalink

i guess i like stores mostly not because i can go there and buy the stuff i wanted to get, but to buy the stuff i didn't know i wanted.

this is a major factor in my world.
i love random (or not-so random having checked out various sleevenotes/credits etc), WTF! purchases from 2nd hand shops.

mark e, Friday, 11 January 2008 01:03 (6 years ago) Permalink

xp But Groban doesn't sell in indie retail stores. So yeah, for those sorts of merchants, it's no surprise that vinyl sales might eventually eclipse CD sales.

xxpp Yeah, finding extremely cheap vinyl in good condition is really not that difficult; it's everywhere. Always has been. Never went away.

xhuxk, Friday, 11 January 2008 01:05 (6 years ago) Permalink

I've been collecting CDs for 17 years. Do I start collecting vinyl now?

Help!

Whiney G. Weingarten, Friday, 11 January 2008 01:09 (6 years ago) Permalink

i got drunk the other night and bought records on ebay and i HAVE NO MEMORY OF DOING THIS. very dangerous. doesn't happen often though. 30 bucks bought me:

100 COUNTRY 45 RPM RECORD LOT--(80'S) LOTS OF PROMOS. Condition of these records is unplayed. SOME OF THE ARTISTS ARE: Johni Dee, Lee Wright, Janjo, Vince Anthony, John Sager, Billy Walker, Gairrett Brothers, John Silvercloud, Monty Wilson, Brady Clark, Ken McWilliams, George Jones & Johnny Paycheck, Gene Simmons, Mike Grimes, Bubba Talbert, David Lowman, Chris Blake, Gerald Trentham, Billy Bagwell, Grant Ray, Slim Whitman, Jeff Dugan, Sam Neely, Maines Brothers Band, Eddy Arnold, Gary Goodnight, Glen Bailey, Ron Reeley, Skeeter Harmon, High Cotton. SOME OF THE LABELS ARE: Dimension, Sunbird, De-vice, Miss Ala, Jeremiah, Deep South, Oasis, MCA, Spotlight, Grinder's Switch, GMC, Adamas, RPM, Pacific Challenger, NSD, Epic, Liberty, Monument, Osprey, Joy-bean, Moon Shine, FXL, Burgundy, Equa, High Tech, Crowe Brothers, Destiny, Arisun, Regal, CBO. See picture. Buyer will pay $10.00 for media mail shipping in USA

scott seward, Friday, 11 January 2008 01:14 (6 years ago) Permalink

I bought an LP the other day, but for aesthetic reasons - we got some of those Art Vinyl frames that you can stick a 12" in on your wall, and Emma wanted the third Caribou album on vinyl to go in one cos she's always loved the artwork.

There are precious few places to buy vinyl in and around Exeter, and I've grown up playing CDs; I'd have to seriously consciously re-calibrate my music-playing rituals if I was to switch to vinyl.

Scik Mouthy, Friday, 11 January 2008 09:35 (6 years ago) Permalink

i dunno how many used vinyl shops there are left in london apart from the MVE chain. but yeah, i love buying stuff i didnt know i wanted too. i also hate buying stuff i didnt know i wanted then going home and finding out there was a reason i didnt want it in the first place. lol.

titchyschneiderMk2, Friday, 11 January 2008 10:32 (6 years ago) Permalink

There are precious few places to buy vinyl in and around Exeter

Shit yeah, when my mum lived there a couple of years back I combed the whole town and found pretty much fuckall, apart from I think the first Birthday Party album in some weird place in an arcade

DJ Mencap, Friday, 11 January 2008 11:08 (6 years ago) Permalink

I'm moving house in a few weeks which is ushering in the very real possibility of not having enough space to house all my music. I really don't want to store a bunch of stuff away in boxes if it's shit I actually want to keep

DJ Mencap, Friday, 11 January 2008 11:11 (6 years ago) Permalink

I don't do the buying stuff I didn't know I wanted anymore, since the advent of downloading. My list of stuff I do know I want is about 2000 long as it is.

Colonel Poo, Friday, 11 January 2008 11:11 (6 years ago) Permalink

i dunno how many used vinyl shops there are left in london apart from the MVE chain

Quite a few still - off the top of my head:
Intoxica! (Portobello Road)
Out On The Floor (Camden)
Beano's (Croydon)
Flashback and Haggle Vinyl (Essex Road)
The shop on Hanway Street whose name I can never remember but used to be Vinyl Experience
Revival Records (Berwick Street - the shop formerly known as Reckless)

I'm not getting any more vinyl though because I've got enough music in the house as it is and my wife will be bringing an equally huge amount of music from Canada when she comes over, plus there is the perennial digestive biscuits problem (i.e. shelves of vinyl records smell like digestive biscuits).

Dingbod Kesterson, Friday, 11 January 2008 11:16 (6 years ago) Permalink

CDs still exist as a great medium for bands doing home-production stuff, e.g. to sell on tour. you can't make vinyl at home (well, you *could* obviously. but you'd be insane), and telling people to go out and d/l stuff is all very well, but lacks the immediacy of "have it now" (+ will people actually even remember the web address/band name?) and as, say, a souvenir from a show.

tissp, Friday, 11 January 2008 12:12 (6 years ago) Permalink

that's true. these days more and more though it's like a CD is a car that drives music to your computer. and then you throw it away. so it's a disposable car. ok the analogy's not perfect.

Tracer Hand, Friday, 11 January 2008 12:44 (6 years ago) Permalink

you can't make vinyl at home

The Presto disc cutter!!! (tenth photo down)

http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Venue/7980/dmphotos.htm

bendy, Friday, 11 January 2008 12:49 (6 years ago) Permalink

Vinyl is around because of nostalgia, and provided it becomes irrelevant (hopefully never will) the CD will also be around for the same reason.

Geir Hongro, Friday, 11 January 2008 15:41 (6 years ago) Permalink

CDs deteriorate and will become unplayable. some made in the 80's are already doing this.

None of my 80s CDs have done that. My only problem with the is that health organisations have gotten portable CD/headphones producers to bring down the max level of their players to protect listeners' hearing, and because of the current loudness war going on, it is impossible to turn up the volume at a satisfactory level when playing 80s CDs.

Geir Hongro, Friday, 11 January 2008 15:43 (6 years ago) Permalink

If you've only got low-fi equipment (e.g., headphones, speakers, etc.) at your disposal it is impossible to turn up the volume at a satisfactory level when playing 80s CDs (or at least that's been my going from low-fi to higher-fi experience).

dblcheeksneek, Friday, 11 January 2008 15:51 (6 years ago) Permalink

that's true. these days more and more though it's like a CD is a car that drives music to your computer. and then you throw it away. so it's a disposable car. ok the analogy's not perfect.

-- Tracer Hand, Friday, 11 January 2008 12:44 (3 hours ago) Link

Not really, in my case. I don't end up ripping most of my music, and I play the actual cds (on the home stereo, in the car) much more than mp3s, anyway.

The Reverend, Friday, 11 January 2008 16:03 (6 years ago) Permalink

Then again, I never owned an mp3 player until about two weeks ago.

The Reverend, Friday, 11 January 2008 16:04 (6 years ago) Permalink

It's been more a convenience (for instance, I can take it jogging) than a liberation for me.

The Reverend, Friday, 11 January 2008 16:05 (6 years ago) Permalink

It's been more a convenience (for instance, I can take it jogging) than a liberation for me.

Wait 'til the convenience rears its uglier head; I count maintaining my encoding (ensuring everything's accurately labeled/categorized, etc.), and the resulting encoded collection (keeping the external drives defragged and/or healthy, etc.), among the least enjoyable music-related tasks in my life.

dblcheeksneek, Friday, 11 January 2008 16:33 (6 years ago) Permalink

and because of the current loudness war going on, it is impossible to turn up the volume at a satisfactory level when playing 80s CDs.

Get a better stereo for the love of god. With a decent amplifier you can get the quietest CD more than loud enough.

Scik Mouthy, Friday, 11 January 2008 16:33 (6 years ago) Permalink

Apologies if this self-described rant's already been posted here (or elsewhere), but I found Fastnbulbous' take on things, Analog Vs. Digital Redux, very persuasive.

dblcheeksneek, Friday, 11 January 2008 17:00 (6 years ago) Permalink

I agree with practically everything he says there.

Scik Mouthy, Friday, 11 January 2008 17:05 (6 years ago) Permalink

Get a better stereo for the love of god. With a decent amplifier you can get the quietest CD more than loud enough.

Seriously, I have a cheap amp and playing CDs above about 2.5/10 is plenty loud enough unless I'm planning on annoying the neighbours, so the quietest 80s CD probably wouldn't make it above about 4/10!

Colonel Poo, Friday, 11 January 2008 17:06 (6 years ago) Permalink

Oh wait he's talking about on headphones, I dunno there cos I only listen to music on headphones on my ipod, where everything's been mp3gained to the same level.

Colonel Poo, Friday, 11 January 2008 17:09 (6 years ago) Permalink

The direct headphone loops on most CD players are generally too fucking loud anyway...

Scik Mouthy, Friday, 11 January 2008 17:10 (6 years ago) Permalink

Or get a dedicated headphone amp!

Scik Mouthy, Friday, 11 January 2008 17:10 (6 years ago) Permalink

dblcheeksneak has a good point about the maintenance involved with non-CD digital music - it is insanity.

Tracer Hand, Friday, 11 January 2008 17:31 (6 years ago) Permalink

Good article, FnB.

The Reverend, Friday, 11 January 2008 18:09 (6 years ago) Permalink

For what it's worth I had about 8 projects I was trying to push through the pressing plants (I use 2) around the 1st of Dec.

One said that he hadn't been this busy since the 90s and RAN OUT OF VINYL for a couple of days.

The other stayed open Xmas week (one of the 2 traditional closing times for US pressers, the other being 4th o July). They would have been open on the 24th if they could have gotten their crew in.

Your free market economy at work...

On the downside Syntax AND Unique closed their doors in the last couple of weeks, 2 of the biggest vinyl distributors in the states. Well... more for me.

factcheckr, Sunday, 13 January 2008 16:59 (6 years ago) Permalink

Interesting article. However, this:

"First of all, the only time vinyl is audibly better than digital is when the remastering job for CD is botched or taken from faulty masters, which was fairly common in 1984-1992"

And then the "loudness war" started in like 94 or 95, so that means a lot of CDs were only mastered properly for a year or two? That sounds like a good argument for vinyl.

Mark Rich@rdson, Sunday, 13 January 2008 17:44 (6 years ago) Permalink

we had another thread at some point in which we discussed how it's a lot harder to screw mastering up with vinyl due to actual physical limits of the medium. unfortunately i can't remember which thread that was at all.

tissp, Sunday, 13 January 2008 18:03 (6 years ago) Permalink

And then the "loudness war" started in like 94 or 95, so that means a lot of CDs were only mastered properly for a year or two? That sounds like a good argument for vinyl.

-- Mark Rich@rdson, Sunday, January 13, 2008 5:44 PM (26 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

also says that not that much new music goes on to vinyl at all now.

That one guy that hit it and quit it, Sunday, 13 January 2008 18:12 (6 years ago) Permalink

I've been collecting CDs for 17 years. Do I start collecting vinyl now?

no.

stephen, Sunday, 13 January 2008 18:22 (6 years ago) Permalink

I count maintaining my encoding (ensuring everything's accurately labeled/categorized, etc.), and the resulting encoded collection (keeping the external drives defragged and/or healthy, etc.), among the least enjoyable music-related tasks in my life.

now see i sort of enjoy this stuff. it becomes the digital equivalent of organizing and sorting lps or cds. moving files from one machine to another, labeling them correctly, or collating them on an external hard drive or whatever, it's labor-intensive and a little dreary in the way that any good obsessive hobby is. (and not as hard on the lumbar or as space-consumptive as lugging around and storing crates full of records.) it is all ephemeral and subject to sudden evaporation of course, which is why anything i really want i either buy or make a physical copy of, but honestly i have so much music in all these different forms that the ebb and flow of stuff acquired and lost just also becomes part of the endless pursuit. it's changed music hobbyism, but it hasn't made it any less fun for me.

tipsy mothra, Sunday, 13 January 2008 18:26 (6 years ago) Permalink

A headphone amp might have been the solution, but it's a bit too much to carry around in public transport....

Geir Hongro, Monday, 14 January 2008 02:04 (6 years ago) Permalink

i like vinyl as a lifestyle accessory
also djing with vinyl is more intuitive to me than djing by computer, which is weird because i am of the compdj generation

deej, Monday, 14 January 2008 02:32 (6 years ago) Permalink

lol @ phrase "lifestyle accessory"

The Reverend, Monday, 14 January 2008 02:37 (6 years ago) Permalink

digital equivalent of organizing and sorting lps or cds

I get a mental image of Cusack, surrounded by records (in Hi Fidelity) as he resorts his collection chronologically by girlfriend he was dating @ the time (or something)

Is there a thread for weird cataloguing systems?

factcheckr, Monday, 14 January 2008 14:23 (6 years ago) Permalink

those interminable chuck eddy ones... anyway YES there is.

lol @ phrase "lifestyle accessory"

-- The Reverend, Monday, January 14, 2008 2:37 AM (11 hours ago) Bookmark Link

& kudos for owning up to it! "i like this thing as a lifestyle accessory"

That one guy that hit it and quit it, Monday, 14 January 2008 14:31 (6 years ago) Permalink

those interminable chuck eddy ones

No idea which threads this could be referring to. Anyway, there's this one, but I'm not on it:

Filing your music alphabetically - C/D?

xhuxk, Monday, 14 January 2008 15:13 (6 years ago) Permalink

Not on this one, either:

Filing CDs Geographically - C or D?

xhuxk, Monday, 14 January 2008 15:15 (6 years ago) Permalink

there was one recently where people talked about color-coded SPREADSHEETS they had made! i can't find it though. because i'm so disorganized.

there's this - So, how do you organise your CDs?

Tracer Hand, Monday, 14 January 2008 16:01 (6 years ago) Permalink

there's also this - Is there a program that will organise all the MP3s on my hardrive?

Tracer Hand, Monday, 14 January 2008 16:02 (6 years ago) Permalink

One of my first ever threads! Sorting your old LPs into Categories...

Mark G, Monday, 14 January 2008 16:08 (6 years ago) Permalink

A headphone amp might have been the solution, but it's a bit too much to carry around in public transport....

You can get portable ones the size of an iPod. Failing that, look into headphones with sound isolation, which will cut out all external noise and prevent you needing to turn it as loud anyway.

Scik Mouthy, Monday, 14 January 2008 16:13 (6 years ago) Permalink

3 weeks pass...

RIP Canadian vinyl

Alba, Thursday, 7 February 2008 19:06 (6 years ago) Permalink

dag yeah i didn't think about the old dudes retiring angle that could be the death, not lack of demand

M@tt He1ges0n, Thursday, 7 February 2008 19:08 (6 years ago) Permalink

2 months pass...

the RIAA's 2007 stats, via Coolfer...

• CD shipments (net) dropped 17.5% while the dollar value of those shipments dropped 20.5%.
• The LP/EP category (vinyl records) saw shipments increase 36.6% with a 46.2% increase in dollar value.
• Cassette shipments (net) dropped 41.2% with, oddly, only a 18.4% drop in dollar value.
• Kiosk downloads increased 28.5% by units and 38.1% by dollar value.
• Subscriptions to music services (using a weighted annual average) increased a mere 0.7% while their dollar value dropped 2.6%.
• Mobile increased 14.6% by units and by 13.6% by dollar value. Mobile includes master ringtones, ringbacks, music videos, full track downloads and "other mobile."

sleeve, Tuesday, 29 April 2008 20:03 (6 years ago) Permalink

4 months pass...

How many times has this article been written in the past few months? (Gets dumber every time, I think.)

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/31/fashion/31vinyl.html

xhuxk, Sunday, 31 August 2008 19:18 (6 years ago) Permalink

“It takes a special kind of person to appreciate pops and clicks and imperfections in their music.”

Yes, you're very special.

Neil S, Sunday, 31 August 2008 19:22 (6 years ago) Permalink

Young vinyl collectors said digital technology had made it easy for anyone — even parents — to acquire vast, esoteric music collections. In that context, nothing seems hipper than old-fashioned inconvenience.

xhuxk, Sunday, 31 August 2008 19:30 (6 years ago) Permalink

Yeah, these articles keep treading over the same territory, but I never get tired of reading them ... especially if they are so chock full of LOLs at the expense of corny indie types and clueless record execs.

“It’s almost a back-to-nature approach,” Mr. Gagnon said. “It’s the difference between growing your own vegetables and purchasing them frozen in the supermarket.”

He said that people who buy vinyl nowadays are charmed by the format’s earthy authenticity.

And I love the pic of hipster dude showing off his Huey Lewis and Donnie Iris LPs. Score!

Romeo Jones, Sunday, 31 August 2008 20:15 (6 years ago) Permalink

ugh, i get really tired hearing about the allure of pops and clicks. blah. buy clean vinyl, you dolts.

scott seward, Sunday, 31 August 2008 21:14 (6 years ago) Permalink

having bought a few records that looked fine to me but are hardly listenable recently, I think I'm gonna have to start being a special person.

Merdeyeux, Sunday, 31 August 2008 21:59 (6 years ago) Permalink

Young vinyl collectors said digital technology had made it easy for anyone — even parents — to acquire vast, esoteric music collections. In that context, nothing seems hipper than old-fashioned inconvenience.

I really, really, REALLY want to hurt people like this. Violently. (A character flaw, I realize.)

Ned Raggett, Sunday, 31 August 2008 22:00 (6 years ago) Permalink

This year Capitol/EMI is in the process of reissuing its first substantial vinyl catalog in decades. Some of those albums, like “Pet Sounds” by the Beach Boys, are classic rock leviathans aimed at nostalgic baby boomers.

uh

And I love the pic of hipster dude showing off his Huey Lewis and Donnie Iris LPs. Score!

yeah, there's a lot of "IT'S ON VINYL, I MUST BUY IT" going around with the kids these days. bragging about "only paying $10" for huey lewis or elton john albums that you should be paying a quarter for at a goodwill. if at all.

GOTT PUNCH II HAWKWINDZ, Monday, 1 September 2008 01:08 (6 years ago) Permalink

I only take pride in a purchase if it's = or > $1, are there really young dudes out there super amped about their $12.99 Rumors buy?

BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Monday, 1 September 2008 01:12 (6 years ago) Permalink

I only take pride in a purchase if it's = or > < $1

BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Monday, 1 September 2008 01:13 (6 years ago) Permalink

well take a look at the warner bros site:

http://becausesoundmatters.com/

40 dollar versions of dollar records for sale! yay! hey, they made people throw away their records so they could buy the cd and now they can throw away the cd and buy the "deluxe" vinyl version!

scott seward, Monday, 1 September 2008 01:15 (6 years ago) Permalink

"are there really young dudes out there super amped about their $12.99 Rumors buy?"

lots of young folks just don't have a good idea of what things sell for. so, if it costs less than a cd they are probably happy most of the time. not ALL young folks obviously, but people into vinyl for kicks or whatever.

scott seward, Monday, 1 September 2008 01:17 (6 years ago) Permalink

used to be people would be all lame and tell you for years that they needed to get their turntables fixed. now people are actually buying turntables. i'm all for it. there's more than enough good stuff for me. and if they get bored with all the stuff they bought i will be at the record store waiting for their overpriced new junk that i can then buy used.

scott seward, Monday, 1 September 2008 01:20 (6 years ago) Permalink

but they can keep their 40 dollar deluxe version of stadium arcadium.

scott seward, Monday, 1 September 2008 01:23 (6 years ago) Permalink

I really couldn't get past the first few paragraphs of that article. I swear, everyone in college nowadays collects vinyl and wears black rimmed glasses. THIS IS NOT SPECIAL. BROKEN SOCIAL SCENE IS NOT SPECIAL.

jonathan - stl, Monday, 1 September 2008 01:24 (6 years ago) Permalink

Yeah it's become a hobby of mine to try to guess the time lapse between the steps

-noisy austin hype of some style revival ("omg have you ever heard BOOTY MUSIC")
-OG stylists flooding stores ("why are there 2452834572987 used copies of 'bass rock express' in the bins this week?")

BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Monday, 1 September 2008 01:28 (6 years ago) Permalink

haha, I didn't even get to the part where they start talking about people at NYU. I actually saw someone sitting outside one of our dorms with a record player and the self titled BSS record last year. Everyone here is that guy. Except me obviously. All the vinyl I buy is not lame at all and in no way falling into any stereotype at all.

jonathan - stl, Monday, 1 September 2008 01:29 (6 years ago) Permalink

yeah the articles and the shit people say is silly but the vinyl resurgence of the past couple years has given me so much increased pleasure in my music listening that people can write that stupid article every day and I'll be quite happy about it. you know? thank God I can get shit on vinyl now pretty easily. from the artist end, too, there's just this feeling that people give more of a shit about the stuff that comes out on vinyl. they ask questions about it, they're interested in it, it's not something they download and immediately lose track of in a 1,000,000-song library. fuckin', long live the vinyl revival even if there's plenty of profiteering behind it!

in re: Ned's comment, we've had the "should people have to do more work to acquire vast collecitons?" argument before I think, I stand firmly on the "yes I am an asshole and yes it sucks that any douchebag can hear Great White Wonder without having to do any groundwork" side of the question. Value in hard work, builds character, etc.

J0hn D., Monday, 1 September 2008 01:30 (6 years ago) Permalink

My post was poorly constructed. My apologies.

jonathan - stl, Monday, 1 September 2008 01:33 (6 years ago) Permalink

Yeah, I've always agreed with John on the groundwork issue. Reason I highlighted that quote myself above is that getting ahold of (or listening to) music on vinyl never struck me as "incovenient"; it's just fun (at least if you stick to thrift stores and dollar bins; these prefabricated "collectibles" with useless bonus doodads are beyond my comprehension.)

xhuxk, Monday, 1 September 2008 01:45 (6 years ago) Permalink

Totally disagree with John, Chuck, and anyone else arguing that music is in any way improved by being hard to come by. Get it to as many people as possible, as conveniently as possible, I say. And as far as the vinyl's concerned, I hated it before there was any such thing as CDs.

unperson, Monday, 1 September 2008 01:59 (6 years ago) Permalink

I don't think they're arguing that the music is improved by the rarity of the object, it's the integrity of the person that's built by the work put into the acquisition.

BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Monday, 1 September 2008 02:09 (6 years ago) Permalink

Since I'm about to unload thousands of records this month, I'm happy as punch with articles like this, for obvious reasons of raw greed.

Otherwise, I agree with John, Xhuck, etc.

On the other hand, vinyl's now taking up half my living room. I don't want to pay more to rent a place with an extra room just for vinyl, sorry. It has to go. :/

Mackro Mackro, Monday, 1 September 2008 02:15 (6 years ago) Permalink

^donut so very very otm on that last point (and the first one too!)

electricsound, Monday, 1 September 2008 02:17 (6 years ago) Permalink

My friend Rick in Pennsyltucky e-mails me weekly about the new old 8-tracks he's found. He's a scrounger of southeast Pennsy's antique-and-scrap marts were they must still be plentiful. He even knows which color casings are the best between the gray and the red. One series was fabricated with superior glue and is therefore now less likely to split when put into a player after decades of sitting in a box in the garage somewhere.

Now there's an eccentric article waiting to be written.

Gorge, Monday, 1 September 2008 02:28 (6 years ago) Permalink

Actually...

http://www.amazon.com/Wrong-Theyre-Right-Russ-Forster/dp/B0009ZE95I

xhuxk, Monday, 1 September 2008 02:32 (6 years ago) Permalink

(Though that movie doesn't deal with lots of the details George's friend Rick knows about, obviously.)

xhuxk, Monday, 1 September 2008 02:51 (6 years ago) Permalink

Mackro how are you selling your stuff? Let ILM know if it's on Amazon/eBay.

sleeve, Monday, 1 September 2008 04:35 (6 years ago) Permalink

It won't be on Amazon nor eBay. Rev called for first crack at it.. after that, whatever Jive Time Records wants from it.

Mackro Mackro, Monday, 1 September 2008 05:36 (6 years ago) Permalink

Oh man...vinyl v CDs...it's about as exciting as arguing about operating systems. I can only have this discussion with so many people in life before I'm like, 'Yeah, yeah, opinions 4 me, I get it..."

Abbott, Monday, 1 September 2008 05:38 (6 years ago) Permalink

And, really, nothing will really outlive anything.

At least until you get a format that is able to give you the sound quality of a wav-file, in no more bytes than an mp3-file, then the CD is needed. Because of sound quality.

Geir Hongro, Monday, 1 September 2008 08:40 (6 years ago) Permalink

a format that is able to give you the sound quality of a wav-file, in no more bytes than an mp3-file

that is mathematically impossible. but storage and bandwidth are always getting larger/faster/cheaper.

ledge, Monday, 1 September 2008 08:48 (6 years ago) Permalink

that is mathematically impossible.

they said that about hotel rooms in a taco, but by golly they made them!

latebloomer, Monday, 1 September 2008 08:55 (6 years ago) Permalink

in my imagination at least

latebloomer, Monday, 1 September 2008 08:58 (6 years ago) Permalink

<3

BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Monday, 1 September 2008 09:01 (6 years ago) Permalink

Young vinyl collectors said digital technology had made it easy for anyone — even parents — to acquire vast, esoteric music collections.

You'd be forgiven for thinking so (OK?).. However..

d/l sites live on the "If you like Kaiser Chiefs, we recommend" or "based on your last 10 d/l tracks/albums, how about..." which negates the esoteric.

As opposed to flicking through a bunch of old LPs and risking £2 or less on something that looks strange/different.

Mark G, Monday, 1 September 2008 09:01 (6 years ago) Permalink

Geir, you're overestimating the importance of sound quality to the majority of the music buying public. People who are in high school and middle school now have grown up with mp3s, and the lower sound quality they provide. For most of them 128 kbps probably sounds about right, which is more than a little bit scary. A ringtone is an acceptable way of listening to music. In the larger scheme of things here, sound quality means less and less. This whole vinyl resurgence is getting blown a little out of proportion, if you ask me.

jonathan - stl, Monday, 1 September 2008 13:41 (6 years ago) Permalink

The Box Set (CDs) is the Archival format

The LP is the Hardback bound format

Deluxe CD is the hardback 'special' format

Normal CD is the 'paperback' format.

Downloading is the

Mark G, Monday, 1 September 2008 13:51 (6 years ago) Permalink

sorry, got bored.

Mark G, Monday, 1 September 2008 13:51 (6 years ago) Permalink

xpost

Re the 8-track movie. I had never even heard of it and it's never been shown on cable in the last few years, far as I can tell. 8-track was definitely inferior in sound to vinyl. And it was very susceptible to stretching which introduced a lot of wow and flutter.

I had an eight track in the car and my brother had a DELUXE console in his room. The idea with deluxe was to buy 8-track blanks and record to them. We tried this was a live broadcast of Robin Trower on FM radio around '73-'74. Believe it or not, the console came with two microphones and you were supposed to line them up with your broadcast source. If it was from the radio, your two stereo speakers.

The idea was good but the results weren't. The fidelity was poor and if anyone talked in the room during the broadcast, the compression built into the circuit made for an interesting interjection of voice over. It might have been better for live recording but we never tried it.

I'm sure 8-track sound is/was superior to MP3. The tapes, when they worked right consistantly, were very enjoyable.

One of the problems associated with its age, and Rick relates this all the time, is the sudden snapping of it in the car deck. No the problem is opposite, there elasticity is all gone. His solution is to keep scrounging for replacements. Apparently there's a bottomless pit of them left over if you know where to look.

It's definitely never going to rise beyond this level. The format's age-related problems make it way too brittle.

Gorge, Monday, 1 September 2008 16:30 (6 years ago) Permalink

Downloading is the... E-book format!

Whatever, dudes. Everything dies in the end. Time destroys everything, maaaaan.

Z S, Monday, 1 September 2008 16:33 (6 years ago) Permalink

I'm sure 8-track sound is/was superior to MP3.

Really? I find that hard to believe (as someone who was first introduced to Rumours on 8-track).

Kevin John Bozelka, Monday, 1 September 2008 16:42 (6 years ago) Permalink

My friend swears by it. I'm not at all fond of Mp3-encoded music, though. Most of the stuff I downloaded and burned to disc -- and it was a lot at one point, I never play anymore. Actually, it's just waiting to be thrown out.

But -- really -- taste and my experience also figure into it. It was simply a pain-in-the-ass to make old DD&THK recordings Internet ready. And at one point I just said, the hell with it. MP3 just messed up so many things in the stereo image and high and low ends, making things harsh where it wasn't supposed to be...

In any case, there's an 8-track site which explains everything you'd ever want to know about the format, called 8 Track Heaven, which suffered from problems associated with tech decisions made or not made during development and continued support. But 8-track simply WAS THE WAY to listen to recorded pop music in the car in the Seventies. At that point, cassettes just weren't up to snuff.

One thing you don't have with MP3 which everyone had with 8-track was crosstalk. No matter your diligence, your player would eventually succumb to misalignment and you'd either live with it or have to take it in for realignment, a hassle.

Gorge, Monday, 1 September 2008 16:58 (6 years ago) Permalink

There’s more to be said for the poor distribution and un-ease of access to records/cd's back in the day than anything regarding the vinyl format in & of itself making it more “meaningful”. My music budget at that age was allowances, cruddy jobs, and x-mas/b-day money. Hopefully I’d find an occasional bootleg at a record fair a couple times a year & be ecstatic about that. National Record Mart (R.I.H.) was the only place you could buy new music growing up and they were clueless about anything outside the top 20. So whatever you DID manage to get your hands on, you had to play more by default.

Now, all you need is access to the net and now you can download overnight what it would take me 10 years to get without leaving your jammies and wake up to them the next day! I honestly don’t know if I would love music as much if I grew up now as opposed to then. Maybe the waiting is the best part?!?

phil67, Monday, 1 September 2008 17:11 (6 years ago) Permalink

the thing that people (like me!) should do well to remember is that there's research suggesting that no matter what your listening habits are when you're young, the stuff you listen to in your youth is always gonna be the stuff that hits you hardest - for neurological/brain chemistry reasons, not nature-of-the-market-during-that-time reasons

all that said, I still do think that it's hardly reactionary to say "the journey itself is as important as the destination," and to note that the age of instant-gratification shortens all journeys & strongly privileges the destination

J0hn D., Monday, 1 September 2008 17:25 (6 years ago) Permalink

i don't think easier access to music has made me love it any less

latebloomer, Monday, 1 September 2008 17:31 (6 years ago) Permalink

No,i don't think i love it any less, more like Eddie Murphy in Raw being offered a cracker in the after starving for weeks.. "MMMMM is that a Ritz, that's not regular cracker, oh yes thats a Ritz, good good good..." When there's less of it around, you tend to replay what little you have more is all.

phil67, Monday, 1 September 2008 17:46 (6 years ago) Permalink

i meant-cracker after starving, i need to proofread more damnit!

phil67, Monday, 1 September 2008 17:47 (6 years ago) Permalink

"The Box Set (CDs) is the Archival format

The LP is the Hardback bound format

Deluxe CD is the hardback 'special' format

Normal CD is the 'paperback' format.

Downloading is the" free newspaper?

right now in l.a. there must be dungeons full of acoustic mathmaticians and industrial scientest types chained to their desks being whipped raw by frenzied record execs screaming "twice as expensive and 100 times better sounding than cds, and totally unclonable! hurrry up goddamnit!!!!" while foaming at the mouth

messiahwannabe, Monday, 1 September 2008 18:07 (6 years ago) Permalink

there's research suggesting that no matter what your listening habits are when you're young, the stuff you listen to in your youth is always gonna be the stuff that hits you hardest

I'd like to see this research. Cuz Ghislain Poirier is hitting me pretty damn hard right now and I haven't been "youth" for quite some time now.

And while JD's "Value in hard work, builds character, etc." probably has some sort of truth to it, I'm not 100% certain of the character that may have been built up in me from years of paging through dusty vinyl and dealing with record store swellheads and going to record conventions and trying not to look excited by that rare ass Little Nell single and having some jerk say "you can be my fingers" and then look at every record I was looking at over my shoulder ("yeah, yeah, that's the band Rick James was in...keep going") instead of waiting for me to get done with that row of records* just like I did VERY patiently when I saw a dude skip slooooooowly past a copy of Godz 2 (which sucked anyway, Lester Bangs!) and reminding the "music sucks today" hippie for literally years to bring Hoboken Saturday Night to his store so I could fuckin buy it (even though I'm sure it would've been as hideously water-damaged as the West End 12"s he was selling for $5 a pop**), etc.

If blogspot could do away with that noise, then I'll forgo hard work (besides there is SOME work involved in finding music on the internet).

* So hell yeah, I went waaay slower forcing dude to flee.

** Never got it from him either, the fucker.

Kevin John Bozelka, Monday, 1 September 2008 18:21 (6 years ago) Permalink

I've still never heard The Disposals (assuming there's something to hear) and Disturbed Furniture.

Kevin John Bozelka, Monday, 1 September 2008 18:51 (6 years ago) Permalink

"yes I am an asshole and yes it sucks that any douchebag can hear Great White Wonder without having to do any groundwork"

GWW is the example here, is it not? A lot of think pieces on Napster mentioned either that or "I'm Not There" to demonstrate how P2Ps democratized record searching. And I bet if we could access search data from Napster's early days, we'd find that "I'm Not There" was indeed one of the first things people searched for (and thus it's no surprise we now have Todd Haynes' film/sdtk).

But GWW speaks to a social history of access and distribution and buzz behind vinyl vs. CD vs. mp3, e.g. who heard "I'm Not There" before Napster and how?

Kevin John Bozelka, Monday, 1 September 2008 18:54 (6 years ago) Permalink

Geir, you're overestimating the importance of sound quality to the majority of the music buying public. People who are in high school and middle school now have grown up with mp3s, and the lower sound quality they provide. For most of them 128 kbps probably sounds about right, which is more than a little bit scary. A ringtone is an acceptable way of listening to music. In the larger scheme of things here, sound quality means less and less. This whole vinyl resurgence is getting blown a little out of proportion, if you ask me.

To be a bit Hegelian: An action will always cause a reaction, and the other way round. Things aren't going to stay like that. Mobile phone sound quality will get better, and the kids will be more interested in sound quality. Surely, we were when growing up in the 80s, why should today's kids be unable when we weren't?

Geir Hongro, Monday, 1 September 2008 18:57 (6 years ago) Permalink

Regarding people caring about sound quality: look at how many people are using apple ear buds or something similar, and then listening to them in loud subways (or another big elephant in the room that annoys me: while people are essentially driving steamrollers over piles of final scratch in the street, I've gone to clubs where half the detail of the music is lost to people talking. Sure if it's Mp3's it's unacceptable, but when you have to put your head up to the speaker, at already tinnitus inducing levels (thank God for earplugs)not to mention bass cranked to the point where you can't even hear kickdrums, just abstract blurs of low-frequency gargle. ugh!). People don't really care, not to mention that on cheap headphones/speakers, there honestly isn't much difference between 192kbs and wav, and certainly not on the subway.

mehlt, Monday, 1 September 2008 20:00 (6 years ago) Permalink

*Sure if it's Mp3's it's unacceptable, but when you have to put your head up to the speaker, at already tinnitus inducing levels (thank God for earplugs, and don't get me started on bass cranked to the point where you can't even hear kickdrums, just abstract blurs of low-frequency gargle. ugh!) it's alright). People don't really care, not to mention that on cheap headphones/speakers, there honestly isn't much difference between 192kbs and wav, and certainly not on the subway.

mehlt, Monday, 1 September 2008 20:02 (6 years ago) Permalink

P.S. I buy and am a fan of vinyl.

mehlt, Monday, 1 September 2008 20:04 (6 years ago) Permalink

I just wish i would see someone write a piece praising the cd like they do vinyl. I came in on the cusp of the mass market push to CD, so, that's where i'm comfortably familiar. Hard to beat a properly sourced and mastered cd imho. Long live tha' silver!!!

phil67, Monday, 1 September 2008 20:29 (6 years ago) Permalink


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