New Burial album. More info?

Called Untrue and out November 5th. That's all I got.

ooh! looking forward.

HDBCD002 (November 2007)
Burial - 'Untrue'

From:
http://www.hyperdub.net/

I thought he said he was only gonna do one, then go back underground.

WHAT A RIP OFF

I thought everyone just hoped he only do one.

i liked the first one, dunno where he's gonna go with his urban ambient/drone/soundtrack/2step now.

I don't know about that, but Hyperdub has been on fire lately and that future release schedule looks great!

It seemed so conceptually pure to just have one. He could have been a pop music ghost. Instead he's gonna go and ruin it with a stab at a career(?)

What a terrible annoyance that the guy doesn't want to just quit making music, eh.

couldn't he have used another name, like, dunno, NotBurial?

It seemed so conceptually pure to just have one. He could have been a pop music ghost. Instead he's gonna go and ruin it with a stab at a career(?)

-- I know, right?, Friday, 28 September 2007 11:50 (2 hours ago)

right, i know!

"unite", the track he put on souljazz's "box of dub", was much better than anything on the first record so i'm really looking forward to this.

he should do loads of stuff under different pseudonyms...

gotta hear that unite tune.

maybe a straight-up 2step banger would be interesting from him... or some pure drone stuff

Try SeeqPod: http://www.seeqpod.com/music/?q=burial+unite

'unite' is mah top tune of 2007

a brand new lp this fast seems... notright.

lets hope for several years of delays and reverb

This fast? It's been over a year! And it's not like he's been flooding the market with 12"s or anything.

It seemed so conceptually pure to just have one.

Otm. But if he can still pull off something great with this one, I'm in.

CD Tracklisting:
HDBCD002
1. Untitled
2. Archangel
3. Near Dark
4. Ghost Hardware
5. Endorphin
6. Etched Headplate
7. In McDonalds
8. Untrue
9. Shell Of Light
10. Dog Shelter
11. Homeless
12. UK
13. Raver

LP Tracklisting:
HDBLP002
A1. Archangel
A2. Near Dark
B1. Homeless
B2. Shell of Light
C1. Raver
C2. Etched Headplate
D1. Untrue
D2. UK
D3. Endorphin

Courtesy of Blackdown.

Just found the press release and new cover here. Shit I'm excited about this.
http://hyperdubrecords.blogspot.com/

7. In McDonalds

lol

If there's one LP that could yet challenge Pinch for dubstep album of the year, it's Burial's. The secretive south Londoner has been hard at work throughout the summer and finally the fruits of his labour, Untrue have a release date in November on Hyperdub.

While a full album review will have to wait until next month's column, one track from the album has stone cold, instant classic written all over it. It's name is "Archangel". At first, it sounds like many Burial dubs: dark, spacey, with rolling drums and popping El-B-style woodblocks. Then the vocal comes in. Wherever you are when you hear this vocal, let me warn you now: please make sure you're sitting down.

Much of "Archangel" is familiar Burial: the Bad Company grimey synths, the deep, emotive Detroit strings and the Foul Play touches. What marks it out as entirely new territory for Burial is the way his infatuation with vocals comes so prominently to the fore, as if inventing some new kind of dark vocal pop.

"Holding you/ Let it be alone… let it be alone… loving you/ Kissing you/ Tell me I belong…tell me I belong…"

On paper the lyrics seem unremarkable. To the ears they're heartstring dynamite. Rolling through the fore of the track, the pitchbent vocals form syrupy melodies like a Todd Edwards classic or Akon r&b bomb. "Archangel" is a lament for everyone who's ever loved so hard it hurts, fallen so deeply little else matters, given until they're dry, cared until they've ascended to a higher place. Burial did all that in one track. Now, are you ready for the rest of "Untrue?"

*SIGH*

http://www.pitchforkmedia.com/article/feature/46000-the-month-in-grime-dubstep

Nice interview in Fact Magazine:
http://www.factmagazine.co.uk/da/61991

"The sound that I’m focused on is more, you know, when you come out of a club and there’s that echo in your head of the music you just heard…I love that music, but I can’t make that club sort of stuff…but I can try and make the afterglow of that music."

"I can’t make super-tunes, but I can make eerie tunes…quiet and rolled-out, with the elements out of reach."

"I like putting uplifting elements in something that’s moody as fuck. Make them appear for a moment, and then take them away. That’s the sound I love…like embers in the tune…little glowing bits of vocals…they appear for a second, then fade away and you’re left with an empty, sort of air-duct sound…something that’s eerie and empty. Like you’re waiting just inside a newsagent in the rain…a little sanctuary, then you walk out in it. I love that."

"There's more rain this time round." :-)

Okay, the track titles are making me a little excited about this.

i can understand not wanting to make it a triple LP but omitting four songs from the vinyl? geez

I downloaded the South London Boroughs EP -- and liked it a lot -- but so far passed on the debut disc, assuming either it was either a retread of the EP's sound.(n.1) But this thread has me interested. Is the debut different sounding from the EP? Is it worth getting?

_____________________________________
(n.1) The EP's tracklisting is South London Boroughs, Southern Comfort, Night Train and Broken Home).

Sorry, I forgot to remove the word "either" from the first sentence.

the album is what you should own. the 12"s are fine, the album has ambient cuts and other weirder pieces on it as well.

the clips from this new album are insane. i cant wait.

whoa, those clips on boomkat are heavy

other clips:

http://www.soundsoftheuniverse.com/releases/?id=10244

can't decide if i should smirk or frown on seeing that burial appears to be better at the writing about burial game than his boosters are

btw i wonder if there isn't always a certain need people have, for an album like this (ghost cannibalization of older surer musics, at a sort of above the merry-go-round of modernity remove LET'S SAY) at this exact stage of every decade? yknow, this random desultory phase where people dont know what the big optimistic groundswell is and aren't finding themselves getting caught up in anything. it just seems so much like the clamour about pole all over again, from where i'm sitting.

or maybe the question should be not that the need exists, but that the one album always seems to get made? i wonder what the 80s equivalent was, if there was one. perhaps people werent yet po-mo enough by that point.

actually there was tons of crazy stuff happening in 1997 wasnt there. maybe... too much to enjoy? i dunno. something's being tapped into here though, and it couldn't have happened in say 2002.

something's being tapped into here though, and it couldn't have happened in say 2002

I'm interested in what you think is happening, and how Burial fits into it. Burial's EP sound is throbbing, lonely, urban and ambient (like a modernized BladeRunner soundtrack), but I'm not sure what uniquely ''naughts'' sound or angst its tapping into or trailblazing for.

it's all about the memories of a better time: the not so distant past of mashup jungle and sexy 2-step. his music mourns the deaths of those genres....

threnody for an unrealized future

I'm just amazed by the unending effort to overwrite about this guy, it's so easy to come up with really moody cliched descriptions

jeez I wish he'd sort his fucking drums out...

...they're only slightly less annoying than Ma hobbs gushing praise and stupid accent

http://rapidshare.com/files/63100639/burial_album_preview_mixed_by_kode_9.mp3

love the atmos though...

what the hell is that woman on? O_o

...sounds like shes on his nutz big time !

i like how his hi-hats sound like scissors. do they still sound like that?

that announcer woman is in love with burial. and kode9 a little bit, too.

She's like that with everything, really. I want her to narrate my life: 'and now … the most incredible, lovely piece of toast that ever came out of a toaster … mmmm'

That said, 'the stage is yours' made me cringe.

Music's tops though.

Liked the description of the high-hats as scissors upthread – now I'm always going to think of that!

'and now … the most incredible, lovely piece of toast that ever came out of a toaster … mmmm'

dude, i am lolling so hard...

...I hate hi hats that sound like scissors, makes me want to cut myself just to feel alive

burial really loves the forrest whitaker samples.

From Ghost Dog yeah?

and in the mix of new album linked upthread there is a sample of his oscar speech....

http://music.guardian.co.uk/urban/story/0,,2198811,00.html

i liked him before he started playing the PR game and doing broadsheet interviews.

The ill-ec-tro-nic has mp3s of "Near Dark" and "Etched Headplate" posted (from Hyperdub promos of the album)

"i liked him before he started playing the PR game and doing broadsheet interviews."

he was doing interviews about being elusive before the first lp came out:

http://blackdownsoundboy.blogspot.com/2006_03_01_archive.html#114298266029581805

he only did one interview last time. now, hes doing loads. still, if it makes him and kode 9 a bit of money, then cool. these interviews remind me of the early ones with afx in a cult of personality kind of way.

grey, washed-out, cheap-looking, pseudo-arty video for "ghost hardware" (sort of everything vahid accuses burial of being, musically):

http://www.residentadvisor.net/feed-item.aspx?id=566

i liked him before he started playing the PR game and doing broadsheet interviews.

-- titchyschneiderMk2, Friday, October 26, 2007 12:35 AM (3 days ago) Bookmark Link

not doing broadsheet is also playing the PR game. cf belle and sebastian.

at the time I think would actually be leveling that accusation more at the entire genre than at burial in particular.

although lately i've been coming around to dubstep quite a bit more. i think it was repeat listens to scuba's post-electro almost-ambient-techno tracks ("brown", "twista", "harpoon"), distance's "my demons" album and kode 9's incredible "magnetic city" that got me there.

i might give burial a 2nd chance, as long as it's less lame atmospherics (qawwali singing and blues loops? do you people listen to peace orchestra too?) and more scissory 2-step beats (loved "unite"!)

that was xpost to jermainetwo

for the record, my favourite burial thing is his remix of jamie woon's "wayfaring stranger".

at least, until i heard this "unknown remix" on thisisnotanexit's latest mix, that i'm listening to for the first time right now.

up on http://www.bleep.com/

you can stream but no dl til the 5th

'archangel' really is terrific.

i like this one more than the first one even after only a couple listens

i haven't been this excited for an album for a long time. it's going to be so hard to resist downloading it before the cd comes in the mail.

leaked!

leaked? i saw it in the store two days ago...

i think the vocal sample on the opening track "untitled" is from "INLAND EMPIRE". i wasn't too fussed about the first record but from the stream (that doesn't stream) on bleep this sounds incredibly great. really looking forward to it.

Loving it on first listen, in particular 'Archangel' and 'Etched Headplate', although the ghostly diva thing can wear a bit thin listening to the whole thing in one sitting. Also cool how 'Raver' flirts with minimal house.

yeah this album is really really good if you don't mind the fact that it's fairly homogenous

i think the title track is my favorite right now

Where is it Oink when I need it ... Argh.

good album to bang to

"ghostly diva" tpp otm. a real letdown.

Where is it Oink when I need it ... Argh.

-- Mr. Goodman, Saturday, November 3, 2007 8:04 PM (22 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

go search

OK, this is good.

http://www.boomkat.com/item.cfm?id=61615

MP3 and FLAC release for those of you unwilling to wait till Tuesday.

(For a legal download that is.)

Feeling this one.

It arrived in the post today. Only heard it once yet, don't know whether I'll like it more or less than the first one, but it feels like more of an album than the "a loose collection of partial tunes you might hear from open windows while walking through a city night" concept of the debut.

'shell of light' has a very pretty, sentimental outro - strikes me as a sincere celebration of the breadth of pop emotionalism (like all the studio remixes do).

still encourage all to check out the 'thisisnotanexit' exclusive remix thing.

oh my GOODNESS i am loving this. perfect for the end of daylight saving, huh

takes flight and carries right on where the first album left off in an upwardly mobile progression...

...don't know if i could go a third album with them same drums and would love to hear someone like reso, toasty, boxcutter or elemental fuck with a tune or three

loops nicely and quietly in the background while doing some late night 'puter work though...

...i likes it

i wonder why he changed the original 'homeless' to 'dog shelter' and called another tune 'homeless' ???

Archangel wins.

Did anyone hear his Bloc Party remix yet?

was thinking of cloning the burial sound and putting it out there as a 'lost' leak track just for laughs...

...but i imagine he'll probably do it himself

Lofi but nice sample of that Bloc Party remix:

http://www.exlibris.ch/vinyl.aspx?status=detail&p_id=1473647&t_na=CPV

turns out the untitled remix I was referring to above *is* the bloc party remix... it's really great.

the one on thisisnotanexit's mix? wow

i assume bloc party sounds nothing at all similar to that?

No, not at all. They're an uptempo rock band.

"art-punkers Bloc Party mix angular sonics with pop structures." (from AMG)

cheers for that thisisnotanexit tip, jermainetwo. (much better sounding & longer than that record store sample)

i'll be looking forward to the "high-tech darkside" album he put off to do this one. it is lovely tender, though.

The album suddenly clicked for me, first thought it was a bit samey and maybe kinda boring even, but last night, in the dark, with headphones, it just, wow.

Very samey, very boring. One track sounds almost identical to a track on the debut (I mean, even within the extremely narrow confines of this guy's style it was like "have a second idea please").

There's a digital release for that Bloc Party remix too, by the way (£0.79, available from Monday)

http://www.7digital.com/artists/bloc-party/flux-(1)/

copy & paste that whole line (or click the second of the four identical yellow/black covers you see there)

I emailed bleep and the flac release is delayed for a few days on their site. I guess I could buy it on boomkat, but my american dollars are not so great for such a thing.

i liked him before he started playing the PR game and doing broadsheet interviews.

-- titchyschneiderMk2

Are you from the planet Assclown?

Yes, base your opinions on music on irrelevant extra-musical factors, well done.

And he's done about 3 interviews and they all pretty much cover the same ground and he's preserving his anonymity. So either way you have no point.

Concerning that 7digital download I bought: it's a DRM protected WMA file, which I didn't know in advance (I wouldn't have bothered then), but the "license this file" button (which only works in Internet Explorer because they use some ActiveX crap) doesn't do anything. Why it doesn't work, I have no idea, I only know I've paid for something I can't listen to. No idea how I can solve this either, there's no help on there for when the button doesn't work.

I didn't really feel much of the first one but I'm loving this. More vocal snippets = a good thing in by book.

i dunno man, demoting todd the god to an archangel seems a little rude.

yeah this is def better than the first one, though he does still seem to a lot of the old windtunnel brrrrrm and then i dunno, echo woodblocking his 2steps so they sound like footsteps. but yknow i have tried to clear my mind and let myself fall under burial's alleged spell, and then i resd something like this

i wonder why he changed the original 'homeless' to 'dog shelter' and called another tune 'homeless' ???

-- pollywog

and how am i not supposed to crease up? truly dread to think of the sheer acreage of skunk i'd have to get through before my face got as po as some's.

I hadn't noticed that, perhaps because I'd been spending so long wondering why there are two tracks called 'Untitled'.

Yay, 7digital solved the problem & I've got the Bloc Party wma now. I know it's still pretty new, but I think I can safely say that for the second year in a row, a Burial remix is my favourite track of the year.

Hmm yes all the Burial crit keeps on piling up in front of Burial's music barring the way.

In retrospect I think what allowed me to embrace Horsepower Productions' genteel garage so wholeheartedly 5/6 years ago was the fact that even then very few people had cottoned on to the notion of taking any garage that seriously, and even yr Hyperdubs had a much more clear-headed approach to writing about the stuff.

i dont like this anywhere near as much as the first album so far. he seems to be trying to make his music more danceable this time or use more conventional 2 step rhythms so half the album seems stuck with virtually the exact same drum programming on every song. which is fine, but it leaves this kinda between home listening and a very weird sort of more conventional 2 step production style, without really satisfying either side. he was more inventive IMO when he had fractured 2 step programming, rather than trying to go UKG-proper. apart from that, it just doesnt seem as affecting as the last one. arch angel isnt as good as people keep saying, mainly cos the vocals (which are a bit shit to begin with) are so clean - it doesnt fit the music right. the vocals only really work when he manipulates and fucks around with them a bit, and layers and cuts them into the track directly. maybe my opinion will change when i hear it a few more times but it seems to use a lot of techniques/familiar sounds from the last one, just not as effectively.

"Are you from the planet Assclown?"

are you kode 9?

Hugely superior to the first album. What isn't hugely superior is the fact that the vinyl is badly pressed. http://dubstepforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=31755&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

I would be legitimately annoyed about this if I hadn't bought it from a shop where one of my best mate's works and so I won't be ridiculed for returning a Burial album because it's "hissy".

- apostrophe after mate

oh yeah the vocals...

...cut em up randomly in 'recycle' spread em over your keyboard and play them manually in real time using your pitch shift wheel, record and add effects

good plan bitch.

oh yeah the vocals...

...cut em up randomly in 'recycle' spread em over your keyboard and play them manually in real time using your pitch shift wheel, record and add effects

sometimes the effect is haunting and beautiful... (shell of light)

... other times not so much. (first half of near dark)

i do think the vocals are too prominent in this album. if i was a cynical guy i'd say he read too many of his own reviews and went for what he thought people liked best about the first one.

just my initial impressions - i still need to listen to this more. somehow it seems kind of formulaic and less... "deep" than the first album to me.

good plan bitch.

^^^i bet u suck a mean dick...

...maybe shoulda got spaceape in to vocalise some shit and given his vox the treatment

I try but I just cant listen to more than 2 of his trax in a row if i'm actually listening (it's them bloody drums aaaaarrrrrrrrrggghhh) but to have it loop in the background continuously makes it like one loooooong song that i kind of like...

...gotta be sum remixes coming out pleeeease

"i do think the vocals are too prominent in this album. if i was a cynical guy i'd say he read too many of his own reviews and went for what he thought people liked best about the first one.

just my initial impressions - i still need to listen to this more. somehow it seems kind of formulaic and less... "deep" than the first album to me.

-- rockapads"

nah, id say he was just trying to copy the shit out of Groove Chronicles "Stone Cold" which incidentily you can hear on El-B's myspace page:

http://www.myspace.com/ghostrecordings

i mean, this album is blatantly an abstracted version of that track right there. as it is my favorite 2-step jam, that is all good with me. i wouldnt say it is formulaic, id say that he just stuck to a more obvious song structure, and even within that he did some nice things (the false ending of "untrue", the off timing on things coming in on "raver", etc) to trick it out. i would say that this one is more "deep" than the first one, though.....

<i>nah, id say he was just trying to copy the shit out of Groove Chronicles "Stone Cold" which incidentily you can hear on El-B's myspace page:</i>

Well that ties in with my theory that Burial is EL-B anyway. EL B = Bury EL. Buck & Bury, ghost hardware, stone cold dead and buried... I mean c'mon ???

And in his last interview he said he wishes he were a ghost. The anonymously ressurected ghost of 2 step ..:)

If Burial was El-B you'd have to assume his drums and basslines would be better...

"i do think the vocals are too prominent in this album."
"somehow it seems kind of formulaic and less... "deep" than the first album"

OTM.

i dont think his drums or basslines are meant to be 'better', the rickety, weird, distant quality he gives them is intentional. otherwise it would just sound like normal or 'proper' garage.

^^^exactly...

Burial is the ghost of EL-B :)

I think its more likely he wishes he was El-B.

And even El-B's ghost would engineer better drum sounds than he does.

Its far more likely that this is some random friend of Steve and Martin's who just likes his privacy.

If its incredibly subtle marketing I'm gonna be pissed.

The 30 second samples make this sound more upbeat and more vocal-driven than his first, not so unrelentingly dark....is that true of the album? (I'm sure I could read this thread and glean that, but wtvs.)

"i dont think his drums or basslines are meant to be 'better', the rickety, weird, distant quality he gives them is intentional. otherwise it would just sound like normal or 'proper' garage."

ha ha the problem though titchy is that Burial's beats do sound like normal or 'proper' garage - just a slightly weak and generic version of same (though this may be a slight improvement over just badly programmed earlier tracks like "Southern Comfort"), and recorded from a room down the hall. El-B's Ghost releases were much more avant in the rhythm section.

I'm not really trying to criticize Burial, who i think is often excellent - it's just that his skills lie elsewhere.

I thought we established ages ago that he's JX?

youre right tim w/r/t to this new album - it sounds like hes trying to make more normal 2step but failing terribly. he needs to go back to making abstracted 2 step rather than 2 step proper. it sounds wrong in his hands. i hope this isnt the road hes going to try and go down more.

lol@recorded from a room down the hall. hes like the garage ariel pink.

"Buri" Al Yankovich

i cant listen to the first half of his album too much. bit too repetitive. its like one long track that goes on until track 6.

I'm sort of surprised people are treating this as anything other than an ambient record that happens to be influenced by 2-step.

well, the first one WAS really moving. this one though is a bit ersatz and direction-less.

Just you wait until you happen to listen to it in the right place/time/state of mind. (it suddenly clicked for me, maybe it can still do so for you)

"well, the first one WAS really moving. this one though is a bit ersatz and direction-less.

-- titchyschneiderMk2"

after listening to this new one more and more, i feel the exact same way. except about the opposite albums. the space ape track on the first one always irritated me, i would skip it basically every time i listened. and the shortness of the ambient cuts always made me want more. it now feels like he had something to say, but wasnt quite there yet. now i feel like is is really there, he found the direction and really made a much better listening ALBUM.

HATED the Space Ape track on the first album. Although the Kode 9 and Space Ape album is mostly marvellous.

The Spaceape track on Burial was my favourite by far. Would love to more Burial with an MC, just like I always preferred ukg with rappers like that MJ Cole Roots Manuva track.

.... but the Roots Manuva remix isn't even very good!

At least shore up your argument by referring to an actual bona fide garage-rap classic!

would love to hear an entire genre like the shy fx remix of pd syndicate's "ruff like we"

we'll call it "thugstep"

j/k

i like the bloc party remix a lot.

<quote>At least shore up your argument by referring to an actual bona fide garage-rap classic!</quote>

I was the biggest so solid and oxide/neutrino fan...

...nothing to do with burial, just thought I'd mention that

fuck did those fellas have some mean ass beats and vids...

"fuck did those fellas have some mean ass beats and vids..."

ang tite mr shabz ;)

admittedly, i know nothing about Burial and always sort of was like, "those crazy britishes."

but "Archangel" has been stuck in my head since i dl'ed from a blog a week or two back, and uh....i really kinda like this?

admittedly, i know nothing about Burial and always sort of was like, "those crazy britishes."

...he's the latest bit of fad music for all the jaded ravers and music crits who came though the the last 25 yrs and have now realised the british music industry ran out of ideas, realised the drugs don't work anymore and the music dosn't really stand up on its own without them

the anonymity represents the underground that doesn't exist for people to move into the mainstream light from anymore so you're better of staying wherever you are...

...it's all a bit sad really and you must understand burial in the overall evolution of the 'hardcore contuinuum' out of london and in relation to kode 9's hyperstitious beliefs otherwise you're not seeing the big picture

or you could just listen to it and think 'eh whats all the fuss about ?'...he's got some nice bits he's got some shit bits

"...it's all a bit sad really and you must understand burial in the overall evolution of the 'hardcore contuinuum' out of london and in relation to kode 9's hyperstitious beliefs otherwise you're not seeing the big picture

-- pollywog"

hmm, i dont agree at all, actually. i think it helps to understand where any music comes from and its place in other music (hardcore continuum is such a ridiculous idea, hardcore didnt come from nowhere, it came from house and techno and hiphop, which all came from disco, which came from soul and r+b and blues and tribal drumming..... etc etc etc). but sometimes, a record just touches people. and this new record seems to be one of those. it is so far beyond its genre limitations, people who could give a fuck about jungle or 2-step or dubstep can immediately feel what the guy is trying to do. you can hate on that and look stupid, or you can just appreciate the fact that the man made a hell of a record.

'hardcore continuum' was just a catch-all to describe the progression of underground dance music strictly emanating from the UK (obv having been influenced from elsewhere) since people in London started making hip-hop no?

i only really like the second, third tracks and last tracks plus most of the beatless bits inc 'In Mcdonalds' esp. the bit where the sample of the girl vocal drifts in which captures the 'vaporous anima like the smokemonster from Lost drifting through this reality alive, awake but only partially aware at any specific moment in time' perfectly.

I think more specifically "hardcore continuum" refers to the relationship between that development and a particular audience - i.e. the notion that you had a population of listeners/participants who could be loosely defined in socioecomic/ethnic/geographic terms and could be traced from 'ardkore through jungle through speed garage through 2-step to grime (dubstep and bassline possibly fall outside this in the same way that the last 8 years or so of drum & bass do).

The irony about Burial is that he superficially genuflects towards this ideal but his music lacks the rudeboy element that I think is common to all those moments. Hence the critical line from those who take the notion seriously is that Burial "mourns" the "death" of this music.

It's a take on the music I disagree with - it might have had some credence if the music was made specifically by and for Dissensus readers but it seems pretty clear to me that the appeal of this music to much of its audience (who, as pipecock says, don't necessarily know 2-step etc.) is precisely that it lacks that sort of rudeboy element (by which I mean both roughness and pop irreverence, and more besides).

I should note that what i'm saying should be construed narrowly - I'm not saying this music is bad or that it would only appeal to people who don't or wouldn't like 2-step. Rather, that its appeal is based on these points of distinction.

anyone fancy a pint?

"The irony about Burial is that he superficially genuflects towards this ideal but his music lacks the rudeboy element that I think is common to all those moments. Hence the critical line from those who take the notion seriously is that Burial "mourns" the "death" of this music.

It's a take on the music I disagree with - it might have had some credence if the music was made specifically by and for Dissensus readers but it seems pretty clear to me that the appeal of this music to much of its audience (who, as pipecock says, don't necessarily know 2-step etc.) is precisely that it lacks that sort of rudeboy element (by which I mean both roughness and pop irreverence, and more besides).

-- Tim F"

im not sure that the rudeboy element as you put it is all that spot on either, though. sure, there was always a little of that (aphrodite, dj hype, etc) but there was also a ton of stuff that really had nothing to do with that perspective (cloud 9/nookie, peshay, photek, ltj bukem, etc). for me, i love both sides of the coin in both genres, 2-step and jungle, but it is all the same thing! and burial's music is mainly a tribute to one side more than the other. look at goldie or a guy called gerald, both had something of the rudeboy to them but their music didnt really have that edge when they made the records that influenced Burial.

I know what you mean but I think you're misinterpreting me a bit - I'm not saying that all the records in these genres were fundamentally rudeboy, but what inhered in the transition from one genre to the next was the rudeboy element.

Nor am I saying that Burial's music is not influenced by all of these genres or that he's not paying tribute to people that have gone before him - rather, that whatever he's paying tribute to it's not "the hardcore continuum" as such. Anyway it's not as if this notion is self-evident to anyone who listens to all this music.

(OTOH I think that's a bit of a mischaracterisation of Goldie and A Guy Called Gerald. Remember that at the same time that Goldie was making Timeless he was also making "VIP Rider's Ghost" and "Saint Angel" and some great slamming remixes. And A Guy Called Gerald made some awesome hardsteppy, proto-techstep tracks.)

But anyway the whole point with jungle/drum & bass is that (according to "hardcore continuum" orthodoxy) it was moving towards a moment of internal rupture between people who wanted to stay true to that inherent flavour even if it meant abandoning the genre outright, and people who stayed loyal to "drum and bass" as such.

2-step never went through such a split, and I think you'd be hard-pressed to come up with a prominent producer who didn't stay true to that rudeboy flavour to some degree.

"Nor am I saying that Burial's music is not influenced by all of these genres or that he's not paying tribute to people that have gone before him - rather, that whatever he's paying tribute to it's not "the hardcore continuum" as such. Anyway it's not as if this notion is self-evident to anyone who listens to all this music."

youre right, it is not necessarily self evident, but i feel like people who were into the specific strains of those genres would be the people most easily able to feel his music, especially the first record which defnitely had less pop elements in it. i mean, when i heard his music the first time, i knew that he was listening to the same things that i had been. the spirit, more than a specific sound, was in there.

"(OTOH I think that's a bit of a mischaracterisation of Goldie and A Guy Called Gerald. Remember that at the same time that Goldie was making Timeless he was also making "VIP Rider's Ghost" and "Saint Angel" and some great slamming remixes. And A Guy Called Gerald made some awesome hardsteppy, proto-techstep tracks.)"

i mean, AGCG had a record called "28 gun badboy", goldie did plenty of harder edged material. but there was always that extra atmosphere that their music had that put it above being "just" hard/dark music. i feel like Burial rides that line too, he uses the growling "terrorist" bass, but his atmosphere is so prevalent that it doesnt feel as menacing as it could.

"But anyway the whole point with jungle/drum & bass is that (according to "hardcore continuum" orthodoxy) it was moving towards a moment of internal rupture between people who wanted to stay true to that inherent flavour even if it meant abandoning the genre outright, and people who stayed loyal to "drum and bass" as such.

2-step never went through such a split, and I think you'd be hard-pressed to come up with a prominent producer who didn't stay true to that rudeboy flavour to some degree."

Wookie? MJ Cole? K-Warren? artful dodger? i guess all of them had *something* of that flavor to them, but it was very very small and not hardly the concentration of their music. and i disagree about the "split", i remember distinctly in early 02 when the more soulful 2-step sound started disappearing almost completely and grime was keeping that beat alive (though it was called "8-bar" mostly at the time) while so many of the soulful producers went back to 4 on the floor house (plus new producers at the time like Qualifide and the like).

it was really like there was hardcore at the top, then progressively the subgenres split off more and more. jungle had its harder edge and its softer side. 2-step came out of that original jungle feeling, but it was even further from its roots and when the split in there came, it was an even more sudden break. eventually it arrived at the 2 components that originally set off hardcore: grime and dubstep representing hiphop and reggae and the reversion to 4 on the floor representing house music. and the bad part of this is that in the splitting off, that original feeling was completely lost. it is not represented anywhere in drum and bass (aside from a select track here or there), nor anywhere in dubstep. it is now represented almost solely by Burial!

just to let you know, i don't really care how much weird venom is thrown here.....

but you guys are teaching somebody who doesn't know quite a bit.

must search threads for jungle when not drunk.

all i know is that i sort of believe what pipecock is saying when it comes to music in general. that's how one gets into music, right? you hear something you're not familiar with and you like it, you investigate, sometimes quite encyclopaedically and to the neglect of other musics.

eventually it arrived at the 2 components that originally set off hardcore: grime and dubstep representing hiphop and reggae and the reversion to 4 on the floor representing house music

total madness

"total madness

-- moonship journey to baja"

but why?

Pipecock when I say "rudeboy" I (perhaps deceptively) mean something broader than just, say, "Super Sharp Shooter". I mean that whole cross-section of rude-freshness that runs (in the case of 2-step) from "Rewind" through K-Warren (particularly his delicious Underground Mix of Richie Dan's "Call It Fate" - total sufferation on the dancefloor!) and MJ Cole in both his bass-friendly and more refined incarnations (okay, maybe not "Sincere", but definitely the effervescent "Crazy Love") as much as the more obviously ruff post-jungle stuff from Zed Bias, Groove Chronicles etc.

It's hard to explain, but it's a certain energy that I think 2-step in particular embodied wholeheartedly (and for its duration... 2-step itself may have splitted off into grime, 4/4, dubstep etc. but it's not like you have a genre that calls itself "2-step" now that is liked by an entirely different type of audience to the one it had in its heyday - c.f. jungle).

It's precisely this energy that Burial intentionally lacks.

I guess it's kinda comparable to the difference between, say, dancehall (be it the more hip hop flavoured stuff or one drop revivalism) and Rhythm & Sound.

pipecock, combining genres isn't like combining chemicals. they don't combine and diverge quite as easily as that, and genres don't map onto each other quite so cleanly or neatly, except for people who're trying to make a point.

there's a bunch of minor problems: for example the assertion that grime is hiphop but not reggae (ELEPHANT IN ROOM = dancehall), the idea that hiphop is hiphop and not reggae and vice versa, the idea that dubstep is reggae vis-a-vis grime's hip-hop.

another big problem is the idea that hardcore = house + reggae + hip-hop. what about the hypnotist? what about what about urban hype? what about nebula II? cosmo + dibs? what gets ignored in the rush to make hardcore and jungle (and by extension, most all of dance music) fit into some imaginary soul -> funk-> reggae -> hiphop continuum is is as important as what is cited.

"It's hard to explain, but it's a certain energy that I think 2-step in particular embodied wholeheartedly

It's precisely this energy that Burial intentionally lacks.

I guess it's kinda comparable to the difference between, say, dancehall (be it the more hip hop flavoured stuff or one drop revivalism) and Rhythm & Sound.

-- Tim F"

i feel you on the energy tip, but im not sure that burial totally lacks it. it may be subdued compared to many other aspects, but his beats have a wicked snap to them (especially on this second album which definitely is more dancefloor oriented.... at least the kind of dancefloor i like) that should make people move. its like what happens with deep house, where at some point a 110 BPM dirty disco loop repeated ad nauseum that would be a boring listen at best and isnt even considered "house" music by some people will cause a near riot, the energy is in there but it is just "deep", its not simplistic dancefloor fodder like jungle or 2-step can often be.

i think the comparison with rhythm and sound is perfect actually, because of how deep and abstracted they are. their tunes dont seem very "dancefloor" when youre rocking them at your house, but when they were booming out over that ridiculous Funktion 1 soundsystem near the end of their set at DEMF 07, people were going completely nuts, probably even moreso than if it had been dancehall.

at this point in my life, i am convinced that the deeper ends of music will always produce a better dancefloor experience, once you can get your body locked into that groove and it makes your thoughts go away, the tiniest thing sets you off, it doesnt need to bang you over the head! Burial is just the deeper end of this strain of music which doesnt have many people currently mining that kind of territory.

Yeah I chose Rhythm & Sound so as to emphasise that it can be a positive as much as negative distinction - and that it doesn't mean the music isn't good to dance to.

I sorta disagree about deepness always being better. I am rather fashionably on a deepness tip right now, but at the same time prime (non-deep) 2-step is the music that changed my life and in some ways my physical relationship to music. I think the issue is more "okay I have a strategy for blowing dancers away, can I live up to it" - where the strategy can be deepness or it can be what i'm calling rudeboyism or it can be something else. There's no necessary heirarchy of strategies here.

"pipecock, combining genres isn't like combining chemicals. they don't combine and diverge quite as easily as that, and genres don't map onto each other quite so cleanly or neatly, except for people who're trying to make a point."

i dont think there was anything neat about it, in fact it was quite complex. but i definitely think that you can see the rise of the crossover of the musics, the maturity into the distinct sound of jungle, and then everything after that was some sort of breakdown into smaller pieces, it was no longer growing and expanding. and even when it was broken completely down into its most current forms, those forms are not exactly the same as the original music that went into jungle, but you can see which side each of the original materials has fallen on. bassline house and funky house are not the same as the acid and deep house that originally helped kick off jungle, but their DNA is very similar. the same way with dancehall and hiphop and grime.

"there's a bunch of minor problems: for example the assertion that grime is hiphop but not reggae (ELEPHANT IN ROOM = dancehall), the idea that hiphop is hiphop and not reggae and vice versa, the idea that dubstep is reggae vis-a-vis grime's hip-hop."

i think there is definitely something to be said for dubstep being the more reggae part of the influence and grime being the more hiphop, but the idea is still the same and hiphop and dancehall are so closely interrelated, especially in the time since jungle has existed. obviously kool herc was a jamaican cat whose influences were the sound system, and that was instrumental in the conception of hiphop. and hiphop in the early days was not that dissimilar to reggae soundsystems playing dubs with the deejay chatting on it. but the parallels are even greater by the early 90's when the genres were being made on the same equipment with alot of the same ideas (sampling earlier hits, beefing up the drums for the dancefloor). dancehall and hiphop have had massive crossover for years. not that they are the same thing, but they are far more closely related (today at least) to each other than house and hiphop are (though in the early days house and hiphop were not so dissimilar!).

essentially what happened is that hiphop and house music changed over the years that jungle and then 2-step were in existence, but they never went away. they were constantly in there with their influence, even if it was just on the fringes in some cases. eventually the old guard became more powerful than the eventually watered down forms and then their influence becamse even greater, leading to the splits.

"another big problem is the idea that hardcore = house + reggae + hip-hop. what about the hypnotist? what about what about urban hype? what about nebula II? cosmo + dibs? what gets ignored in the rush to make hardcore and jungle (and by extension, most all of dance music) fit into some imaginary soul -> funk-> reggae -> hiphop continuum is is as important as what is cited.

-- moonship journey to baja"

i dont think it really is imaginary. music didnt come from nowhere, and the culture of jungle was heavily taken from those cultures. reggae even was influenced by r+b that the jamaicans were picking up from US radio stations! all this black music is heavily interrelated, and jungle was just an extension of that. any of the other forms of music that might have influenced those guys (rock, progressive rock, jazz, etc) is all part of that family tree as well.

there is always a big push in the media to label genres of music as being "new" but that is basically never the case. there is always direct influence and taking of things from already existing music cultures, it is only new to people who werent paying attention and lack the ability to musically connect the dots. nothing is new, everything has been done before.

"I sorta disagree about deepness always being better. I am rather fashionably on a deepness tip right now, but at the same time prime (non-deep) 2-step is the music that changed my life and in some ways my physical relationship to music. I think the issue is more "okay I have a strategy for blowing dancers away, can I live up to it" - where the strategy can be deepness or it can be what i'm calling rudeboyism or it can be something else. There's no necessary heirarchy of strategies here.

-- Tim F"

well perhaps "better" wasnt the best word to use, but the problem with the more obvious dancefloor material is that it relies pretty heavily on novelty and that kind of thing. this is evidenced in the hyper accelerated shapeshifting that these obvious dancefloor musics go through: banging techno, mnml, glitch, techstep, etc etc. these records do not hold their dancefloor value, they are satisfying only on the most base level. a deep record can do the same thing to a dancefloor for 35+ years after it is made.

i am very interested in the idea of music being timeless. i believe that there is some jungle and 2-step that is timeless, but the overwhelming pressure for things to "move on" for those genres really killed those producers work. they could no longer be successful doing that kind of stuff. that was a huge problem for me when i was deejaying jungle and then 2-step, i always wanted to mix it up, play old shit, new shit of different styles, etc.

eventually i found what i was looking for in deep house, disco, and detroit techno. people have been dancing to that shit for over 30 years. and in many cases, THE SAME people have been dancing to it for that long, the old the new and everything inbetween.

one of the things i like about burial is that he is taking that same kind of approach to his music. it is distinctively "now" but it has history and it insists that the way that the majority have chosen to take things today is just dead wrong. his music will sound good in 30 years because it is so simple in the way that it works!

it insists that the way that the majority have chosen to take things today is just dead wrong

...and what way is that ???

" it insists that the way that the majority have chosen to take things today is just dead wrong

...and what way is that ???

-- pollywog"

listen to any other dubstep record or any drum and bass tune, see what it is that burial has that they don't.

success?

j/k :-)

does anyone know what some of the samples he uses on this album are
I am throughly convinced that christina agulera is on "ghost hardware"

oh and Archangel is my track of the year.
This album is also great for driving home late at night from an involving show.

dipshits on the dubstepforum are deleting comments from people who know the samples. i've been on that forum for a while now and i have to say it's the most idiotic bunch of knuckleheads i've ever mingled with. everything is LARGE or HUGE of SAFE. it's ok for Burial to steal samples without clearing but it's not ok for me to download the Burial remix of Bloc Party?

do you happen to know what he uses on Etched headplate

it sounds so familiar but im not sure what it is

AMANDA PEREZ "Angel"...fyi

listen to any other dubstep record or any drum and bass tune, see what it is that burial has that they don't.

...so he's got crackle, hiss, a real depth of emotion to his ambient arrangements layered on a bed of shitty sounding drums and some wonky vocals

that's hardly insisting everyone else has got it wrong...

...re the samples: I heard an en vogue sample in one tune from the intro to Hold On

and yeah dubstepforum sux balls...

that place has gone nowhere since they banned me...heh

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3VXT15Kf4s

Ray J "One wish". Vocal samples on Archangel.

christ, that's the same Ray J who was tapping Kim Kardashian in that homemade sex vid. jeez. on the one hand, i respect burial's sampling skills. on the other hand...

I respect tapping Kim Kardashian, the "One wish" tune, and Burial's sampling skills.

hey jim!

how do you feel about dubstepforum?

Some nazi admins. Some idiots. But also some good folk and it's the best source of information about dubstep.

you broke my cover! :P

yeah, it's not a bad place to learn about upcoming releases but lately i've been really put off by the attitudes of the core group of admins/posters.

oh well.

back on topic, i've been working on an arrangement of Burial tunes in 1 playlist. i believe Untrue is poorly sequenced and a bit too heavy on one style of tune. some say this makes it more coherent, i think it makes it unlistenable as an album in one sitting. i'm working on a sequence of both LP's, the 2 EP's and the 3 remixes i have from him. i think the new tunes will merge with the others to form a great listening experience. has anyone done this yet?

this explains his motivation for hiding his identity - so he can avoid the inevitable shit-storm when it's revealed how many uncleared samples he has used.

"bit of a copout dont you think ???

...so he's got crackle, hiss, a real depth of emotion to his ambient arrangements layered on a bed of shitty sounding drums and some wonky vocals

that's hardly insisting everyone else has got it wrong...

-- pollywog"

"soul" is the word i was looking for, but yeah he has all those things too......

Okay, close thread, "soul" has now been used to justify an otherwise arbitrary distinction between different production styles.

Nothing more to see here!

http://www.smakaho.com/soul-glo.gif

"Okay, close thread, "soul" has now been used to justify an otherwise arbitrary distinction between different production styles.

Nothing more to see here!

-- Tim F"

otherwise arbitrary? maybe if youre fucking deaf, which wouldnt totally surprise me. jungle and dubstep are the ultimate in technology triumphing over soul in music. everything is so heavily engineered to sound loud and bassy that there is no room for any real expression. Burial give a big fuck you to that whole idea.

Ok, you're an idiot.

Quiet and trebley = soul?

Of course there is a difference between Burial and other dubstep (or 2-step for that matter), but if you make a question-begging statement like "listen to any other dubstep record or any drum and bass tune, see what it is that burial has that they don't," and when pressed on what this magical quality is, you resort to "soul", well... that just strikes me as evasive reasoning.

Like "soul" is a placeholder for the time and effort it would take to think (or at least talk) through what might be a persuasive argument in Burial's favour here.

I think the flaw in your argument extends here:

"jungle and dubstep are the ultimate in technology triumphing over soul in music. everything is so heavily engineered to sound loud and bassy that there is no room for any real expression."

This combined with your statements about the timelessness of deepness imply that you're simply fetishising musty production-values in the same manner that you complain of minimal/dubstep/jungle fetishising high production-values (I'm not sure that the last two do that, actually, but for the sake of the argument let's provisionally accept that they do).

Funnily enough, at least people who do go on and on about the specifically engineered sound of a bassline etc. (much as I think they're usually making a big deal over nothing much and often a bit tiresome in their obsession with particular club sound systems) are honest in admitting that what they're responding to is something primarily sonic, i.e. it's a production technique, not some mystical quality of "soul" or "expression".

A more honest argument in favour of Burial (and perhaps by extension Theo Parrish or Rhythm & Sound or "deepness" generally, though I wonder at how flexibly this term extends to cover Burial) would be to talk about how his specific sonic approach (yes, quiet and trebly, but also papery, echoey, at times quite warped sounding, etc etc.) can be as effective and affecting as high production values, without recourse to transcendental evasiveness. But then I often sense a certain reluctance to engage with the actual aboutness-of-sound when it comes to talk about Burial, Theo Parrish, and all these artists praised for their "soul", as if there's some sort of cultural cringe at the perceived profanity of actually getting down to the mechanics of sonics, arrangements, engineering and so forth - as if this would reduce these geniuses to the humiliating level of being "merely" great production outfits.

soul pipecock ???

so you think burial is a black guy...

...for some reason he sounds white as snow to me

Don't be a dick, Robert.

Some whiteboys have a little soul, Todd Edwards maybe?

"Quiet and trebley = soul?

-- jim"

"soul pipecock ???

so you think burial is a black guy...

...for some reason he sounds white as snow to me

-- pollywog"

my guess is you people wouldnt know soul in music if it smacked you in the face. if you think a frequency range or dynamic level has anything to do with soul, youre probably retarded.

i actually assume burial is a white guy. but what does that matter? are rhythm and sound not soulful? Francois Kevorkian? the Talking Heads?

"Of course there is a difference between Burial and other dubstep (or 2-step for that matter), but if you make a question-begging statement like "listen to any other dubstep record or any drum and bass tune, see what it is that burial has that they don't," and when pressed on what this magical quality is, you resort to "soul", well... that just strikes me as evasive reasoning."

i just dont see how it is. i made my argument, i think it is quite obvious that there is something that Burial's music provides to people that other music in these genres isn't. let's face it, you could drench brittney spears in noise and crackle with weird beats and melacholy atmosphere and that is not gonna make people love her anymore than they already do. he has not taken the easy way out in any manner with his music, yet he is still ridiculously successful and his music crosses over to fans of many genres. if he was just generic artist X in the genre, he would receive exactly the attention that the other artists get: not much outside of a very niche crowd. but as people like goldie and even mj cole did in the past, the guy made some records that expressed things that people wanted to hear, and he took something that is not mainstream and people still love it because it transcends the genre nonsense. most times hype is hype, but every now and then the hype is right. this is one of those times!

"Like "soul" is a placeholder for the time and effort it would take to think (or at least talk) through what might be a persuasive argument in Burial's favour here."

yeah, i dont think or talk about music, ever. come on.

"I think the flaw in your argument extends here:

This combined with your statements about the timelessness of deepness imply that you're simply fetishising musty production-values in the same manner that you complain of minimal/dubstep/jungle fetishising high production-values (I'm not sure that the last two do that, actually, but for the sake of the argument let's provisionally accept that they do)."

i mean, i do love me some lo-fi type shit, i cant lie about that. but being lo-fi is nothing in and of itself. the brilliance is that if you can make something sound beautiful and captivating without regard to the sound quality, you have something very special on your hands. it is about stripping away everything except that which is most important in music: expression, emotion, soul.

"Funnily enough, at least people who do go on and on about the specifically engineered sound of a bassline etc. (much as I think they're usually making a big deal over nothing much and often a bit tiresome in their obsession with particular club sound systems) are honest in admitting that what they're responding to is something primarily sonic, i.e. it's a production technique, not some mystical quality of "soul" or "expression"."

i mean, that is fine for those people, especially if they can admit they are interested in that kind of thing. but that shit is science, its fun, its cool, its what i study in school! but it is not very good art, there is little being revealed of these artists' emotions or ideas.

"A more honest argument in favour of Burial (and perhaps by extension Theo Parrish or Rhythm & Sound or "deepness" generally, though I wonder at how flexibly this term extends to cover Burial) would be to talk about how his specific sonic approach (yes, quiet and trebly, but also papery, echoey, at times quite warped sounding, etc etc.) can be as effective and affecting as high production values, without recourse to transcendental evasiveness."

i mean, r&s are not stylistically identical to theo parrish who isnt stylistically related to burial. but they all put the same thing at the front of their music, and that is their artistic expression. its not about the production value being effective or not. there are good electronic musicians who can express themselves quite awesomely and keep the sound "clean" (UR, 4 Hero, Metro Area, Carl Craig, etc etc) and i appreciate them very much as well. of course if you took their music and played it on some acoustic instruments and drums, it would still be captivating, unlike so the genres that rely specifically on electronic tricks.

"But then I often sense a certain reluctance to engage with the actual aboutness-of-sound when it comes to talk about Burial, Theo Parrish, and all these artists praised for their "soul", as if there's some sort of cultural cringe at the perceived profanity of actually getting down to the mechanics of sonics, arrangements, engineering and so forth - as if this would reduce these geniuses to the humiliating level of being "merely" great production outfits.

-- Tim F"

but it is not about sound, thats why! these artists just go straight for the unquantifiables in their music, everything else is secondary. im sure there are people who are just into lo-fi sound, but thats a whole other area of distorted thought that may as well the same as people who are only into hi-fi sound.

the basic idea is that Burial has transcended his genre of music by stripping away the backwards thought that has driven the creativity in two genres of music that i have loved for a long time into the ground. people quit caring about music and started caring about nonsense, he took it back to the music alone and some people hate on him for that! how crazy. when making beautiful soulful music is the exception and it causes people to dismiss you, something is terribly wrong with the standards!

the basic idea is that Burial has transcended his genre of music by stripping away the backwards thought that has driven the creativity in two genres of music

...what creativity driving backwards thought has burial stripped away to transcend his genre ???

ya'll talkn some crazy shit bro...

Some whiteboys have a little soul

maybe back in the day but not so much now. I mean i'm fucked if any white boy jumps out of the pack at the mo screaming 'check me out I'm a fucking soulboy'...

...least of all burial, thats just ludicrous

Burial is white.

This thread is hilarious.

Hmm I don't think there is any point in us continuing this particular debate pipecock, as I am very anti the use of the word "soul" in discussions of music outside of the soul-the-genre. I think we'll have to accept that we have fundamentally different approaches to thinking about music and leave it at that.

Except to say that this argument:

"of course if you took their music and played it on some acoustic instruments and drums, it would still be captivating, unlike so the genres that rely specifically on electronic tricks."

... seems so consummately antithetical to my whole notion of the value of dance music, that from my perspective it verges on Geir-like levels of bizarro.

"...what creativity driving backwards thought has burial stripped away to transcend his genre ???

ya'll talkn some crazy shit bro...

-- pollywog"

the backwards thought is that there is some "standard" of production values that are needed to make a valid song in the genre. the trend in drum and bass and dubstep is to sound as nearly alike as possible to every other artist, i cant really figure that one out. how exactly is an individual supposed to be able to express themselves properly when they have to fit into a super-limited framework?

dnftt

"Hmm I don't think there is any point in us continuing this particular debate pipecock, as I am very anti the use of the word "soul" in discussions of music outside of the soul-the-genre. I think we'll have to accept that we have fundamentally different approaches to thinking about music and leave it at that."

that is of course a completely ridiculous approach that you have if nothing can have soul unless there is an r&b singer on it. is jazz not soulful? house? bob fucking dylan has more soul than most dance music produced these days. people need to quit being afraid to be different, no two people are the same, so why should their artistic expression sound indistinguishible? it is completely crazy.

"Except to say that this argument:

"of course if you took their music and played it on some acoustic instruments and drums, it would still be captivating, unlike so the genres that rely specifically on electronic tricks."

... seems so consummately antithetical to my whole notion of the value of dance music, that from my perspective it verges on Geir-like levels of bizarro.

-- Tim F"

dance music is the oldest shit on the planet. house and techno music are the modern examples of the most basic percussive music that dates back as long as the idea of music has existed. it is not significanly different in intent or execution from tribal drumming. dance has existed a long long time, and it doesnt need synthesizers, ableton live, or max/msp. all you need is a funky beat and maybe a little melody. it is very simple. if youre relying on modern production gimmicks to excite people, that shit is novelty and not much else. drum and bass and dubstep were both music that was rhythmically interesting. they sacrificed that quality to become production trick music, which is why they are niche music that production geek people are interested in. they have become failures of what dance music is all about.

Geir-like levels of bizarro.

-- Tim F

pipecock = the nu-dance geir

dance music is the oldest shit on the planet. house and techno music are the modern examples of the most basic percussive music that dates back as long as the idea of music has existed. it is not significanly different in intent or execution from tribal drumming.

-- pipecock

this is just plain wrong! the earliest forms of music are vocal, the earliest instruments weren't drums but flutes! the idea that bones could be struck together to make a sound seems to have arisen nearly a thousand years AFTER the idea of blowing through them to make tones.

the earliest african music is chanted vocal harmony music, which proves my contentious that polyphonic progressive trance music is actually the most african dance music.

i mean, proves my contention

theo parrish = a mere imitator of europeam avant-garde masters like boulez and stockhausen

dance has existed a long long time, and it doesnt need synthesizers, ableton live, or max/msp. all you need is a funky beat and maybe a little melody

and i mean, this is ridiculous. do you fantasize about ancient people dancing to 4/4 drum rhythms? because that's a fantasy. most old dance styles are based on dancing to a rhythm but not necessarily to rhythm instruments. see the entire history of european dance, asian dance, south american dance, even most african dance.

sorry, pipecock, you've bought into a fundamentally racist story of dance music where people dancing to backbeat-heavy 60s soul is juxtaposed w/ the stereotyped image of zulus bouncing to tribal drumming.

"all you need is a funky beat and maybe a little melody" - you know, which is why pygmys, uh, flutes and reeds, and the north africans invented the, uh, oud, and in central africa they invented mbira and highlife, and the maasai invented polyphonic choral chants to go w/ their dances, etc etc

funny, you dont need ANY instruments to play percussion, you just need some hands to clap together or a foot to stomp on the ground. yeah, the voice was used along with it, but these dont require any technology outside of the human body that can be found archaeologically! these are the most basic components of music, and it is not dependent on technology in any way. hence the idea of needing just a rhythm and a melody.

hand-clappin' foot-stompin' = not really part of many traditional musics, you know

and if you can make one tone with your voice, you can play that tone rhythmically before the idea of more than one tone (or melody/harmony) come into it. shit, you can grunt in rhythm.

"hand-clappin' foot-stompin' = not really part of many traditional musics"

according to what?

according, to, you know, name me a traditional music that you can listen to a field recording of and we'll talk about it.

i'm sorry, though, my brief rant completely avoids engaging w/ the main intellectual thrust of your argument, which is that Burial has transcended his genre of music by stripping away the backwards thought that has driven the creativity in two genres of music that i have loved for a long time into the ground

"...what creativity driving backwards thought has burial stripped away to transcend his genre ???

ya'll talkn some crazy shit bro...

-- pollywog"

the backwards thought is that there is some "standard" of production values that are needed to make a valid song in the genre. the trend in drum and bass and dubstep is to sound as nearly alike as possible to every other artist, i cant really figure that one out. how exactly is an individual supposed to be able to express themselves properly when they have to fit into a super-limited framework?

what are some of these "standard" production values needed to make valid dubstep ???

who says any individual has to fit within a super-limited framework to be able to express themselves within the genre ??? the dubstep though police over at their elitist forum ???

who you been talking to ??? maybe just the wobbleclones yeah ???

...oh yeah sure blackdown says toasty, boxcutter et al aren't dubstep they're breakstep but he's an idiot pushing his own agenda of whatever that lo weight shit is he produces is cos those guys piss all over his sound

dude should just give up and just write about the stuff, champion it instead of wanting to have his cake and eat it too...

sets a bad example to all the fanboys at dubstepforum thinking if he can make shit music and call it dubstep it gives them free license to clone the innovators as well...

...still, he's only following in kode 9's footsteps. I mean his album was shit, his compositions and production are sub par and no amount of bass theory and post jungle apocalypta rants can make up for crap tunes

...as for burial, he'd have the easiest sound to clone but why would you want to ??? without the anonymous gimmick generating interest there really isn't much there musically challenging either

he's good and i like some of his tunes but he's not all that...

...now reso on the other hand OMG !!!

This thread is hilarious.

-- Mister Craig, Saturday, 17 November 2007 12:29 (9 hours ago) Bookmark Link

^^^heh...it has it's moments

...and before everyone jumps on blackdown and kode9's dick and down my throat just go listen to their tunes with a critical ear and forget about their status in the scene

hell, just saying that in my last post woulda got be banned and death threatened all over again on dubstepforum...

...deleting sample sources to protect the anonymous

FUNNNNNYYYYY CARRRRNTS...

I first heard Untrue in a record store, and I thought it was an early DJ Spooky album with vocal things, which isn't really what I wanted to hear. :(

When I said as much in some electronic discussion forum based in the PacNW (ok, granted, I did called Untrue the most boring album of 2007 there), I got this as a personal email:

"Sir, in a few lines you have proven to be a vapid fuck. I vow to spit on you lest I cross your pussy path."

I do like how Burial's been able to give to electronic/atomspheric discussions the same kind of fan level throwdowns common in metal and hip-hop. If only someone could be this passionate defending, I dunno, Sigur Ros or other bands!

Apologies for my path of pussy.

^^^hahaha ,listen up son...

...it's not enough to like burial, you gotta love him and defend him, suffer for him and be prepared to die for him cos thats what his music suggests he would do for you

he is the ghost of christmas past, the deus ex machina, the kwisatz haderach of the hardcore continuum and if you don't know, then you're some neanderthal retard who understands nothing about soulful electronica and londons pre eminence in the world thereof :)

"Sir, in a few lines you have proven to be a vapid fuck. I vow to spit on you lest I cross your pussy path."

Haha oh come on if this was a hip-hop/metal forum this wouldn't be sent as a personal email.

I'm beginning to suspect that I might want to listen to this record before buying it as this thread rambles on.

...up the dosage !!!

I noticed a sample from Elliot Goldenthal's Alien 3 score on the first track of this CD

post very much in character, yada yada, etc.

Retards be retarding.

Mr V brings the pain as usual.

gah... internet scenesters are such a turn off.

this album is growing on me, but i still think playing voice samples on a midi keyboard is kind of silly sounding. guy has some really nice drones, though - would love to hear him explore that more. the clippety-cloppety drum sounds wear on me a little, too. it kind of hurts to listen to certain songs on headphones with those woodblock sounds hammering away.

pipecock you’re sounding as ridiculous as Omar S.

i still think playing voice samples on a midi keyboard is kind of silly sounding

Yeah it probably is. Nothing to do with Burial though.

I love Untrue. In fact, the dubstep genre made me go back and try to get acquainted with a line of genres that led up to it, e.g., jungle, drum-and-bass, 2-step, garage, and so forth.

As I understand it, most of those genres developed in the 90s. This makes me think that I completely missed the most interesting music of that decade (I was mostly focused on -- and uninspired by -- rock from the era)(n.1) The idea of pirate radio stations in London playing these new genres sounds a whole lot more exciting than 90s rock radio.

I wish I knew more about the differences between these genres. It seems clear that each new genre evolved from the next, but I don't have a good feel for where it all began (Chicago House maybe?) and how each new genre added or subtracted sounds/elements from their predecessors. Any info on this from you knowledgeable folks is, as always, appreciated.

__________________________
(n.1) Except for Nirvana, who were all-time great.

Daniel, probably the easiest thing is to just buy Simon Reynolds' Generation Ecstasy (or Energy Flash if you're in Europe). It tells this whole story with a special focus on the musics played on London pirate radio, ending with speed garage. Then you can read his (pretty amazing) 2-step article from 1999 on his website.

Back to the argument:

I do disagree with Pollywog, I thought the Kode 9/Spaceape album was great, better in fact than Burial. The best parts though were the ones that didn't sound much like dubstep orthodoxy - Kode 9 is actually a better hip hop producer than dubstep producer I think.

To be clear, Pipecock I'm not denying that all these musics that you like have "soul", rather I'm suspicious of this term as a valuable tool in discussing music. It's a black hole term: all that people can say is "i think this music has soul and that music doesn't" or "I think this music is more soulful than that music," and there's literally nothing you can say to add to that. It shuts down discussion, and in the process encourages lazy thinking (and generally unexamined canonical thinking to boot) where we don't know why one thing is better than another thing, IT JUST IS OKAY. Playing the soul-card is actually worse than playing the authenticity-card in this regard.

Generally, people who use this term a lot haven't thought much about why they use it, or what they're actually responding to when it pops into their head. True to form, you've had several opportunities to clarify what it is in Burial's music that makes you drag out the s-word beyond other evasive phrases like "expression", "transcends", escaping all the backwards thoughts etc... But of course if you wanted to do this you wouldn't have tried to shift the discussion towards soul in the first place.

"dance music is the oldest shit on the planet. house and techno music are the modern examples of the most basic percussive music that dates back as long as the idea of music has existed. it is not significanly different in intent or execution from tribal drumming. dance has existed a long long time, and it doesnt need synthesizers, ableton live, or max/msp. all you need is a funky beat and maybe a little melody. it is very simple. if youre relying on modern production gimmicks to excite people, that shit is novelty and not much else. drum and bass and dubstep were both music that was rhythmically interesting. they sacrificed that quality to become production trick music, which is why they are niche music that production geek people are interested in. they have become failures of what dance music is all about."

Even if we accept this, doesn't that effectively efface any difference between disco, house, techno etc. etc? Doesn't it render interesting sonic developments - like the specific sound of Rhythm & Sound releases - empty and meaningless?

Dance music, at least since the rise of electronic instrumentation, is at least as much about the sound-of-sounds as is it about melody, rhythm etc. It's not a binary choice between timeless compositions that can be played on any instrument on the one hand and sonic gimmicks or gear fetishism on the other. The two are always interwoven in various proportions in any dance music you look at. Sure, "I Feel Love" might be a great song, great performance from Donna etc., but it's also about that marvellous, totally distinctive synth arpeggio shimmer that Moroder extracts from his machines. Drum and bass was always already a "production trick music", from the very beginning producers were fascinated with the effect of particular techniques like pitchshifting, or with creating an entirely new sounding bassline (think of all the variations on basslines jungle produced just between 1993 and 1995).

The regression in jungle from the mid to the late nineties that you're referring to isn't primarily the tale of a shift from timeless expression to gimmicky production tricks. The rise in drum & bass's excessive fixations (eg. with creating an ever more subtle variation on an acid bassline) was an effect of a narrowing of the genre's horizons of possibility - which itself was partly due to a rejection of jungle's early days, which was seen as too gimmicky. By committing themselves to a more purist vision of what drum & bass was supposed to be, producers had no choice but to become more fixated on the minute details of production.

But that doesn't mean that purism is always bad and should be rejected in favour of "expression" - which sounds like an endorsement of things like Goldie collaborating with Noel Gallagher. It was precisely because early jungle narrowed its horizons of sonic possibility from the preceding hardcore techno that it was able to intensify certain aspects like the rhythms, the basslines. Ultimately the balance got shifted too far in that direction, but the move towards a certain purism and sonic fetishism was initially a productive component in jungle's development.

And let's not even start with 2-step, which for its entire lifespan was all about the brilliant exploitation of one new gimmick after another.

... And I say that last bit as someone who's generally not into purism in dance music. But my preference for more mutational sounds (which tend to be gimmicky in a different way - a la 2-step) doesn't prevent me from recognizing the potential validity of a purist approach.

It seems clear that each new genre evolved from the next...

...nah it was more like cross pollenation and contemporaneous evolution than a straight linear progression from one genre to the other

in all those genres there were artists who defied categorisation and crossed more than a few strictly defined boundaries...

...where'd it all begin ??? probably in jamaica, with soundsystem culture, versioning and dubbing out tunes which then drifted to the US and the UK by emigrants

and please don't capitalise my name TIM F, i don't like it...

Thank you for the recommendation, Tim. I'm going to seek out Reynolds' book.

...where'd it all begin ??? probably in jamaica, with soundsystem culture, versioning and dubbing out tunes which then drifted to the US and the UK by emigrants.

Yeah, I should have been more clear. I knew that, in many significant respects, these genres began in Jamaica. Largely through the recommendations of knowledgeable people here -- e.g., Alex in SF -- I've become a fan of a lot of roots reggae and dub (though, curiously, I haven't warmed up to post-roots Jamaican genres, like dancehall). I meant after the music migrated from Jamaica to England and the U.S. That's why I mentioned Chicago House as a possible starting point.

i don't think the starting point is a place, it's a piece of kit like a moog or fairlight, a drumulator or a roland 808...

...so contemporaneously in places like germany with kraftwerk or italo disco, in new york, chicago and detroit with hiphop, house and techno, people were using these same bits of gear and making it do different things which then got genrified, subgenrified and so on

electronica is not the story of a place and time in fixed linear thought. There is no continuum, there is though a woven lattice, an interconnected story of technology and man symbiotically creating musical art...

...what tended to happen though is, as the technology became more affordable, the poor talented people got hold of it and evolved the music even further, taking it from the 'intelligent' excesses of rich corporate producers to the streets and the underground then back into the mainstream limelight

and now we have burial who is deservedly occupying a prominent place in the lattice at a time when the structures and systems which governed the evolution have largely been deconstructed and made irrelevent by the internet...

"...what tended to happen though is, as the technology became more affordable, the poor talented people got hold of it and evolved the music even further, taking it from the 'intelligent' excesses of rich corporate producers to the streets and the underground then back into the mainstream limelight"

pollywog this seems like an excessively romantic and, for that reason, simplistic take on things to me.

Think of late nineties R&B and hip hop, where the rhythmic innovations were initiated almost exclusively on high-charting releases from major labels.

Your description does describe what happened in particular areas of music but I don't think it can be raised to the level of overarching narrative.

keeping it simple, yup thats me...

...I bet most of those high charting releases you talk of though were made by primarily poor to begin with, non classically trained or highly tutored studio engineers who came to prominence using cracked software and cheap gear then snapped up by A&R people in major labels with an eye for talent

i guess that's what pisses me off about dubstep. Is that there is a belief you don't have to be a musician or understand anything about music composition, you just have to make it sound good. Production values over substance the end being most of it sounds underdone...

...is the trademark burialesque crackle and rain hiss masking a distinct lack of substance ???

"...I bet most of those high charting releases you talk of though were made by primarily poor to begin with, non classically trained or highly tutored studio engineers who came to prominence using cracked software and cheap gear then snapped up by A&R people in major labels with an eye for talent"

... but then, in that case, who are these aristocratic bogeymen jealously guarding technology?

"i guess that's what pisses me off about dubstep. Is that there is a belief you don't have to be a musician or understand anything about music composition, you just have to make it sound good. Production values over substance the end being most of it sounds underdone..."

Again, this production vs music binary is one of the more pernicious talking points on this thread. I don't think dubstep reveals any more or less musicality than the preceding 'ardkore, jungle, 2-step, grime etc.

If we were going to nominate one element that is fatally missing from most dubstep, I'd say "levity" or "femininity" or "disco" ("Left Leg Out" excepted) before I'd say "musicality". Dubstep doesn't smile enough, basically.

... but then, in that case, who are these aristocratic bogeymen jealously guarding technology?

i shouldn't have to tell you...

...they might come after you too

Dubstep doesn't smile enough, basically.

...this are serious music made by serious cats

"you want smiley music listen to funky house or sum shit...
...this are serious music made by serious cats"

oh plz.

its true...

...most cats i've met on line or real life give their tunes some pretty serious titles

that's got to mean something ???

sometimes true statements are painful nonetheless.

"Production values over substance the end being most of it sounds underdone"

i wouldnt say dubstep is more about production values than the other genres mentioned but by trying to preserve elements of those genres while almost gentrifying them to get rid of the stuff that might be seen as 'embarassing', it lacks much in the way of movement/momentum. it makes a virtue of being inert. i say its biggest problem is trying to emulate dub (cos its 'proper music') more than dance music. grime doesnt have the high production values but at least theres something happening in it.

Yeah titchy is closer to the mark I think...

"gentrifying them to get rid of the stuff that might be seen as 'embarassing'"

This is basically what i mean by "rudeboyism" - what Simon Reynolds always described as a flava/cheese axis.

Dubstep doesn't smile enough, basically.

i say its biggest problem is trying to emulate dub (cos its 'proper music') more than dance music. grime doesnt have the high production values but at least theres something happening in it.

These are sharp observations. But, in both cases, dubstep's ''failings'' are by design. I'd guess artists working in the genre would admit these points and say its a necessary part of the asthetic.

FWIW -- in the right context -- I like the humorless, oppressive sound of dubstep (it's especially good during late-night walks when the weather turns colder). Also FWIW, I like the way dubstep emulates dub. It's a distinctive aesthetic, and it feeds the mood created by these songs: ghostly, angry, empty shells spinning in some nightmare distopia (I suppose these adjectives say as much about the music as saying it is or isn't ''soulful,'' but there it is).

I suppose there is nothing inherently wrong with dubstep being grim and humourless and dub-fixated. And indeed many of my favourite dubstep tracks (stuff like Pinch's "Qawalli" or Mala's "Forgive") fit this paradigm fairly well.

But if I wanted to explain why dubstep seems so much less involving to me than jungle, 2-step or grime were, I'd say it's largely because as a genre it focuses around these attributes too restrictively. There could be a lot more light and shade with this music.

(to be fair, a lot of dubstep doesn't sound particularly dub-fixated at all, and I'm not sure that the more dub-reverent material is necessarily less interesting)

"I suppose these adjectives say as much about the music as saying it is or isn't ''soulful,'' but there it is"

No they're good descriptions because they're evocative, they have some level of specificity despite being removed from the music qua music. "Soul" is so broad and overused that it struggles to evoke anything now.

"soul" = "real"

pollywog trails off a lot..........

The po-facedness of dubstep is really overstated by people sometimes. Every dubstep producer I've chingwagged with has seemed less than serious about their "work" , there are plenty of frankly silly tunes (Coki refixing Minnie Ripperton, the stupid fucking horns in Cockney thug, the doo doo doo in "Night"), silly song titles (Skream's "Wobble dat gut"), and plenty of jacking 4/4 soca/funky influenced stuff going on (mainly looking at Benga here, saw him dj for the fifth time or something last week and it was one of the best nights I've been to for an age).

I love the beatless tracks on this record. They seem like the realisation of the non-genre of "urban ambient" (shite name). Other examples would be "Fabio's Ghost" by Rufige Kru (b-side to Terminator II) or "Undersea Flight" by Matrix (b-side to Optical "To Shape Future".

Much of the rest of the record, sadly, is crap. "Arcangel" seems destined to be this years tokenistic urban/ black Top 10 entry for the cognoscenti, which is hilarious because it's crap.

In terms of being some kind of eulogy for rave, stuff I've heard recently from Geeneus (e.g. "Old Skool What") or Breakage "Shroud" utterly slay this on that count.

hey guys, i made this thread about soul a few months ago, it never went very far but had a few very interesting starting posts. maybe you can continue your discussion over there.

contrived emotion

"I love the beatless tracks on this record. They seem like the realisation of the non-genre of "urban ambient" (shite name). Other examples would be "Fabio's Ghost" by Rufige Kru (b-side to Terminator II) or "Undersea Flight" by Matrix (b-side to Optical "To Shape Future".

Much of the rest of the record, sadly, is crap. "Arcangel" seems destined to be this years tokenistic urban/ black Top 10 entry for the cognoscenti, which is hilarious because it's crap."

Iain, its at least going in your favour, that if you inverted your opinions 180 degrees then you would be right. On the other hand, no amount rotation could salvage POLLYWOG. What kind of racist name is that, anyway?

"Soul" is so broad and overused that it struggles to evoke anything now."

no one told chuck d this.

I'd just like to point out that the term "wog" doesn't have any racist meaning in large parts of the English speaking world.

Pollywog, at least in the continental US, is slang for baby frogs.

I'm pretty sure pollywog lives in New Zealand, you'd have to ask him what his name means.

X-post to Tim.

If anything dubstep has swung too far away from the darkside halfstep sound of late 2005 and early 06.

Rusko, Caspa, Kromestar, some of Cotti's tracks.

They're fucking goofy.

No more dread, lots of LFO and moshing.

The scene has gotten incredibly populist over the last year.

DJ N-Type is probably the key figure in this change.

"Arcangel" seems destined to be this years tokenistic urban/ black Top 10 entry for the cognoscenti, which is hilarious because it's crap.

1. It's the best track on the record.
2. I doubt it will be a single, and I doubt if it was a single it would get anywhere near the charts.

i feel no guilt in being a dubstep tokenist and saying that archangel is probably the only one from this album i'll be rocking going forward

'Archangel' tires quickly... 'Etched Headplate' is far better imho.

ya in terms of tracks w/ "pitch-shifted ghost-diva" vox on this album, etched headplate >>>>>>>>>> archangel

On the other hand, no amount rotation could salvage POLLYWOG. What kind of racist name is that, anyway?

I'm half polynesian, half euro/nz...hence pollywog and the idea of a pollywog becoming a tadpole to a frog kinda suits me

i wouldnt say dubstep is more about production values than the other genres

i would, because the content is so minimal the production values have to be higher which is why i don't like burials scissorlike hi-hats, submerged woodblocks and lack of decent fills overlaid by crackle. It's a gimmick thats sadly worn off and may possibly stop it from becoming a future classic...

...having said that i love the epic ambience and droney bass, even the wonky vocals.

FWIW I ripped 'homeless' now 'dog shelter' off his myspace about a year ago and screwed it to one of our beats to show how burial might sound with straight drums ??? dead and buried...

http://www.myspace.com/pollywogga

...might do another one

lol at ur myspace

wow i had no idea that pollywog was racist. it's just another name for tadpole.

cheers jim...

...i are serious cat

that are serious myspace...hehe

"I do disagree with Pollywog, I thought the Kode 9/Spaceape album was great, better in fact than Burial. The best parts though were the ones that didn't sound much like dubstep orthodoxy - Kode 9 is actually a better hip hop producer than dubstep producer I think."

i dont think it was better than burial, not even close, really. but i listened to that album at least 5 times before i decided that i didnt really care for it, which is better than the < 10 seconds i can tolerate basically any dubstep tracks for. dubstep is so trash of a genre that the sound alone is so shallow and useless that even if there was content in the music it wouldnt be worth listening to in order to extract it.

"To be clear, Pipecock I'm not denying that all these musics that you like have "soul", rather I'm suspicious of this term as a valuable tool in discussing music. It's a black hole term: all that people can say is "i think this music has soul and that music doesn't" or "I think this music is more soulful than that music," and there's literally nothing you can say to add to that. It shuts down discussion, and in the process encourages lazy thinking (and generally unexamined canonical thinking to boot) where we don't know why one thing is better than another thing, IT JUST IS OKAY. Playing the soul-card is actually worse than playing the authenticity-card in this regard."

there is nothing to add to it, though. his music has soul means IT SOUNDS LIKE HIS EXPRESSION. that's all. can you disagree with someone's expression of something? it might not be your taste, but whatever. when the criticism is comparing it to music that has nearly no room for expression in it, that comparison makes almost no sense. but dubstep and jungle were once expressive, diverse sounding music. not now. which is why burial has more to do with 2-step in 99 and jungle in 95 than anything that any offshoot of those genres is doing today.

"Generally, people who use this term a lot haven't thought much about why they use it, or what they're actually responding to when it pops into their head. True to form, you've had several opportunities to clarify what it is in Burial's music that makes you drag out the s-word beyond other evasive phrases like "expression", "transcends", escaping all the backwards thoughts etc... But of course if you wanted to do this you wouldn't have tried to shift the discussion towards soul in the first place."

there is nothing to clarify that can be said in words. that is the beauty of music, it can convey things that words can't. basically, when you listen to burial's music, you know it is him. it does not convey the limits of a subgenre, it doesnt convey some outsider's idea of what production values should sound good. when jungle and 2-step were good, they were music that used the vague concepts of their genre to express emotion. now those genres consist largely of music that fits rigidly into a specific framework, which makes it much less effective to anyone listening outside of the specific fans of those genres.

"Even if we accept this, doesn't that effectively efface any difference between disco, house, techno etc. etc?"

those genres have very little difference, generally just a few localized elements that influenced each to be slightly different. this is why when i deejay, i play all of them together as one! this is why those genres have been alive and well despite many changes in sound for up to 30 years or more.

this idea is one of the most important ideas that most people seem to not notice. if you look at the deejays who were the ones who defined the genres, they played music that would have encompassed house, techno, electro, and disco (as well as jazz, and funk, and others!). it was the style of playing them together to highlight certain moods more than others. larry levan played alot of the same records as ron hardy who played alot of the same things as the early cats in detroit. it is all the same music.

"Doesn't it render interesting sonic developments - like the specific sound of Rhythm & Sound releases - empty and meaningless?"

yes. if people are listening only to the sound of them, that might explain why so many are happy to also listen to their many copy cats. for me, those copy cats do basically nothing because all they capture is the most shallow part of what rhythm and sound is doing. R&S are so effective because of the other things in their music: their soul, if you will!

"Dance music, at least since the rise of electronic instrumentation, is at least as much about the sound-of-sounds as is it about melody, rhythm etc. It's not a binary choice between timeless compositions that can be played on any instrument on the one hand and sonic gimmicks or gear fetishism on the other. The two are always interwoven in various proportions in any dance music you look at."

i completely disagree. some of the best artists were able to create new sounds, but the reason their music is remembered today is because they were able to place those sounds effectively into already fantastically composed and arranged music. "i feel love" would have been meaningless if the lyrics werent what they were, if a lesser singer had sung them, if the mood of the song didnt match that frantic electronic bass.

"Drum and bass was always already a "production trick music", from the very beginning producers were fascinated with the effect of particular techniques like pitchshifting, or with creating an entirely new sounding bassline (think of all the variations on basslines jungle produced just between 1993 and 1995)."

so many of those variations were just stolen from other music! "Reese" bass was of course sampled from a kevin saunderson track, many sounds were jacked straight from dub or dancehall jams, etc. "dread bass" was
one of the truly new joints, and it was of course overused in many forgettable tracks while the original "dread bass" song remained a classic because all the other elements were so captivating!

"The regression in jungle from the mid to the late nineties that you're referring to isn't primarily the tale of a shift from timeless expression to gimmicky production tricks. The rise in drum & bass's excessive fixations (eg. with creating an ever more subtle variation on an acid bassline) was an effect of a narrowing of the genre's horizons of possibility - which itself was partly due to a rejection of jungle's early days, which was seen as too gimmicky. By committing themselves to a more purist vision of what drum & bass was supposed to be, producers had no choice but to become more fixated on the minute details of production."

i guess the gimmick of good music was too much for those people. they have the irrelevence that purists deserve now, and im happy for it.

"But that doesn't mean that purism is always bad and should be rejected in favour of "expression" - which sounds like an endorsement of things like Goldie collaborating with Noel Gallagher. It was precisely because early jungle narrowed its horizons of sonic possibility from the preceding hardcore techno that it was able to intensify certain aspects like the rhythms, the basslines. Ultimately the balance got shifted too far in that direction, but the move towards a certain purism and sonic fetishism was initially a productive component in jungle's development."

im also not sure about this. i dont think of jungle as being a more restrictive genre than hardcore was, especially since so much of jungle used all the hallmarks of hardcore in its tracks. jungle covered all the ideas of hardcore and then added more (ambience, jazz, etc).

"And let's not even start with 2-step, which for its entire lifespan was all about the brilliant exploitation of one new gimmick after another.

-- Tim F"

but why then are some of the songs that used those gimmicks still memorable now while others arent? a gimmick with no substance behind it is worthless, and that is the way that drum and bass and dubstep are now.

any truly creative music will come up with new sounds, even if they are using old equipment. that's just the nature of how creativity works. but when the fixation is on the sound over everything else, you get throwaway disposable crap, which is what ruined jungle and 2-step.

"If anything dubstep has swung too far away from the darkside halfstep sound of late 2005 and early 06.

The scene has gotten incredibly populist over the last year.

-- Siah Alan"

the words of someone so caught up in a sub-genre that they think these shifts are meaningful to people outside of it.

"In terms of being some kind of eulogy for rave, stuff I've heard recently from Geeneus (e.g. "Old Skool What") or Breakage "Shroud" utterly slay this on that count.

-- Iain Macdonald"

breakage is good, though i dont think he is as good as burial is at capturing the overall mood of that era of stuff.

and to address one more thing Tim F said:

"But my preference for more mutational sounds doesn't prevent me from recognizing the potential validity of a purist approach.

-- Tim F"

see, to me the idea of being a purist in a genre of music that is nothing more than a gigantic mishmash of things is ridiculous. and most genres of music are like that!

you brought up the bit about Goldie with Noel Gallagher: of course i think that was a great idea! people should try everything. of course in the case of mashing things together like that, you will not fall into those restrictive definitions of what a genre is. i have never subscribed to those. when i deejayed jungle, i mixed with with breakcore, hardcore/gabber, ambient, hiphop, reggae, rock, etc. when i played 2-step, i mixed it with broken beat, techno, electro, jungle records at 33, etc. i played things with the overall idea of mashing up all the things that made those genres in with the genres and trying to achieve that feeling instead of playing 30 of the same sounding records.

there is nothing to clarify that can be said in words

^^ OTM

"If anything dubstep has swung too far away from the darkside halfstep sound of late 2005 and early 06.

The scene has gotten incredibly populist over the last year.

-- Siah Alan"

the words of someone so caught up in a sub-genre that they think these shifts are meaningful to people outside of it.

I think he made the quite reasonable assumption that people in a thread discussing dubstep might be au fait with the thing they're discussing.

The two Ps have basically just made this thread a mishmash of unreadable self-aggrandising shittery. I shall bid you all adieu.

don't you want to hear about pipecock's revolutionary "electic" dj'ing style? it sounds like the best thing ever.

Jungle recordz at 33?!?!

http://www.wexarts.org/wexblog/images/girltalk02.jpg

"don't you want to hear about pipecock's revolutionary "electic" dj'ing style? it sounds like the best thing ever.

-- moonship journey to baja"

nah, its about doing the same things that made the genres interesting and vital in the first place, not just playing the same old crap that people make to try to sound like each other. that shit is mad revolutionary. its revolutionarily fucking terrible.

There are a couple records you should check out pipecock.

Splash by Toastyboy

Breathless by Vaccine

Neverland and Officer by the Digital Mystikz.

They're worth you're time, before you write off the entire genre.

Isn't the basis of an eclectic style of DJing an open mind?

"There are a couple records you should check out pipecock.

Splash by Toastyboy

Breathless by Vaccine

Neverland and Officer by the Digital Mystikz.

They're worth you're time, before you write off the entire genre.

Isn't the basis of an eclectic style of DJing an open mind?

-- Siah Alan"

i will check those out, but i dont anticipate being interested. i have not heard a single DM track i have liked, havent heard the others.

the thing is, it is impossible to listen to every release in every genre that exists. i listen to lots of things over many genres, but people and genres dont get chances forever. its possible there are a few other good records in the genre, but to go through every release just to find them is not worth the effort when comparing it to other genres.

Thats fine, digging through dubstep releases at the moment is like looking for diamonds in an avalanche of shit.

A lot of the music is disposable, but some of it means to me what early jungle seems to mean to you. Or Theo Parrish or Omar S.

The one thing that I do like about Dubstep's popularity over in the UK is that it brings out some really interesting and talented and most of all young producers.

They are the hope for more interesting music to come.

the DM tracks leave me cold. "officer" is just boring, "neverland" sounds like demented carnival music in a bad way. the toasty cut was also dull. i did rather like the atmospherics in "breathless" by vaccine, but the angry sounding beat kinda ruined the overall effect a bit. definitely the best of that set of tunes, but still nothing outstanding IMO.

i just dont see the comparisons in terms of jungle or theo or omar to dubstep. those things were inspirational in how wildly diverse they can be and how many ideas they use. dubstep is so limited comparatively. i mean, alot of the early dubstep stuff (while it was 2-steppy) is music that i love, it had so many more elements going on.

and i feel you on bringing out new producers and deejays, that kind of thing is important. but i think it would be better for everyone if the music was a little more up to par.

"Splash by Toastyboy"

Oh yes.

I have only heard a handful of tracks in the N-Type mould - what i heard didn't exactly inspire me to check out more.

Even this stuff, which I guess you could describe as more bouncy and less serious than the preceding dub/half-step sound, falls into very similar potholes for me. What I've heard reminded me of bad breakbeat garage (all those "Buddah Finger"/"Jammin"/"Go DJ" style tracks floating around circa 2001) - there's actually a certain grimness to their fun I would say. Again, my issue with it is perhaps that it's a very masculine/anti-disco sound.

Pipecock's latest missive (the long post a bit upthread) is even more Geir-like!

I should dig up that thread where I debated with Chuck about the role of eclecticism in DJing.

Neverland was one of those tracks that just cracked it all open for me.

It helps to hear it loud, off vinyl, with a really powerful sub.

Before I got into dubstep I was into grime and breakcore, I don't think I really understood how trendy those musical scenes were a couple years ago.

Dubstep got me into the concept of minimalist beats as being worth listening to in their own right, not just as backing to vocalists or as wallpaper music.

The use of empty space in those early tracks was pretty mindblowing for me, I've since gotten an appreciation for less "gimmicky" forms of dance music. House, techno, disco and funk became a lot more interesting.

I don't think I really understood why dance music existed before I was about 19 or 20, had kind of sheltered childhood.

Check that Toasty track too, its arguably the best of the bunch.

As I see Tim has agreed with.

Its kind of a grim time for young people in the UK, Tim.

Bassline house seems to be riding in with all the elements stripped out of UKG by dubstep and grime though.

And that music is kind of hyper feminine, very much drug noise, very hedonistic.

You heard anything by T2?

"Neverland was one of those tracks that just cracked it all open for me.

It helps to hear it loud, off vinyl, with a really powerful sub."

but see, thats my problem with the genre. if it needs some technical crapola associated with it, it is not a good song. it should sound awesome over real audio, on a crappy boombox in the park, etc etc.

"Before I got into dubstep I was into grime and breakcore, I don't think I really understood how trendy those musical scenes were a couple years ago."

haha, i was done with breakcore as it went too IDM back around '01. grime, i was with as it was being birthed: i was dropping many emcee tracks along with the 2-step kinda stuff i played. but it got silly with the warring rappers who took themsevles way too seriously despite the fact that they were terrible rappers who were wishing they were all equally terrible american emcees of the time.

"Dubstep got me into the concept of minimalist beats as being worth listening to in their own right, not just as backing to vocalists or as wallpaper music."

techno is much better for that IMO! it was basic channel, dan bell, robert hood, and others who did that for me. to me, they are still the masters.

"The use of empty space in those early tracks was pretty mindblowing for me, I've since gotten an appreciation for less "gimmicky" forms of dance music. House, techno, disco and funk became a lot more interesting.

I don't think I really understood why dance music existed before I was about 19 or 20, had kind of sheltered childhood.

-- Siah Alan"

i guess i can see how the evolution through breakcore to grime and dubstep could happen. i guess for me it was always a little more soul music based stuff that led my progression which was kind of similar: i went from jungle (and associated music like breakcore) to 2-step (and associated stuff like broken beat) finally into house, though i had been a fan of techno throughout most of that as well.

Well it went more like Venetian Snares -> Plasticman, Dizzee Rascal -> Kode 9 + Digital Mystikz -> Horsepower + Ghost -> and somehow from there to minimal techno and electro.

I'm kind of a musical omnivore these days.

To try and bring this back to Burial, I don't buy into the concept of nostalgia for what you never had.

I've been sold that line about the 60's, the 70s, early Garage and House nights, rave in 88, jungle all of it.

But this album I think draws from hardcore and jungle and 2-step like folk singers drew from country, bluegrass and blues.

While clearly influenced by the rave experience he seems completely and utterly removed from it.

These aren't his memories, or mine.

But the loneliness and hurt in this music seems to be its reason for existing, not the celebration of the past.

The two Ps have basically just made this thread a mishmash of unreadable self-aggrandising shittery. I shall bid you all adieu.

...bye jim ya boring ol fart

when you listen to burial's music, you know it is him. it does not convey the limits of a subgenre,

I know no such thing and it does convey the limits of the 2step genre. It's about as far out there as you can go before it becomes something else entirely, a ghostly memory of it's former self.

I also know there are alot of r'n'b samples in there which aren't him.

...but anyway, I reckon Roisin Murphy is who Burial should be remixing instead of bloc party

why ???...cos shes got a voice to die for and tunes crying out for a more underground treatment

"Its kind of a grim time for young people in the UK, Tim."

See I find this argument always a bit romantic (again). Has there ever really been a time though that dark scenes and light scenes didn't co-exist in the area of "young person dance music"?

For example:
- darkcore, happy hardcore and handbag house side-by-side
- gabba, techstep and speed garage side-by-side
- and as you say, dubstep and bassline side-by-side

I don't really believe that young people necessarily gravitate towards dance music that acts as some sort of comment on their socio-economic experience. Surely "hard times" encourages escapism as much as negativity; conversely, it's precisely those scenes which embody some sense of "disaffected futureshock" or what-have-you that are most vulnerable to over-fetishisation by the middle classes, where such class distinctions in audiences can be made.

Where there is a link I suspect it's more complicated. i.e. I strongly suspect the differences in mood between darkcore and handbag house or happy hardcore say more about patterns of drug use than strict socio-economic divisions. You can then tie that in to socio-economic stuff but it's not as simple as saying "high unemployment means dark moody music."

"I know no such thing and it does convey the limits of the 2step genre. It's about as far out there as you can go before it becomes something else entirely, a ghostly memory of it's former self.

I also know there are alot of r'n'b samples in there which aren't him.

-- pollywog"

so you cant express yourself through sample usage??! i disagree completely.

as for his music being 2-step, i dont agree. most 2-step is club fodder (even the good stuff), Burial doesnt have deejay friendly intros, crowd hyping breakdowns and buildups, etc. it stands on its own, it doesnt need to be mixed in a set to be effective. in fact, i bet his music would be way better received on a techno dancefloor than on a 2-step dancefloor (even back in 2-step's heyday, but obviously there is no way to prove that).

aside from the possible comparisons to basic channel in style, who else would be making music that sounds like his? and because his style is so distinctive, don't you think it would be easy to pick out any copycatters? i know it is easy for me to pick out R&S or Moodymann hacks.

"Well it went more like Venetian Snares -> Plasticman, Dizzee Rascal -> Kode 9 + Digital Mystikz -> Horsepower + Ghost -> and somehow from there to minimal techno and electro."

vsnares used to be my boy back in the late 90's after i met him at one of the barn parties in milwaukee. he stayed at my house for a week in summer '00 when we brought him here to play in pittsburgh!

"To try and bring this back to Burial, I don't buy into the concept of nostalgia for what you never had.

While clearly influenced by the rave experience he seems completely and utterly removed from it.

These aren't his memories, or mine.

But the loneliness and hurt in this music seems to be its reason for existing, not the celebration of the past.

-- Siah Alan"

well, he is removed from it because the times where he was connected with it have clearly passed. he expressed the loneliness and hurt through the old ways of the genres that inspired him, it is all closely related IMO.

"most 2-step is club fodder (even the good stuff), Burial doesnt have deejay friendly intros, crowd hyping breakdowns and buildups, etc. it stands on its own, it doesnt need to be mixed in a set to be effective."

"in fact, i bet his music would be way better received on a techno dancefloor than on a 2-step dancefloor "

Pipecock you have a real knack for finding the absolute worst reasons to like things.

""most 2-step is club fodder (even the good stuff), Burial doesnt have deejay friendly intros, crowd hyping breakdowns and buildups, etc. it stands on its own, it doesnt need to be mixed in a set to be effective."

"in fact, i bet his music would be way better received on a techno dancefloor than on a 2-step dancefloor "

Pipecock you have a real knack for finding the absolute worst reasons to like things.

-- Tim F"

i dont think those are reasons to like it, those are reasons it is not limited to its genre.

so why do you want dubstep to be more smiley and light hearted Tim, cos if it were then it wouldn't be dubstep ???

...you got funky house for that shit

so you cant express yourself through sample usage??! i disagree completely.

oh you can but that still doesn't mean you "know" it's him or that he's being entirely honest. Methinks its the anonymity thing covering the fact that he may be a name producer of past 2step which precludes me from believing he is what he says he is and the music is what it is...ie a new take on a past genre reflected through the eyes/ears of someone who wasn't ther to enjoy it forst time around. That and knowing it may all just be a cleverly contrived kode9 hyperstitious social experiment.

...would it make much difference to you if burial came out and said he was menta/artwork ??? would you feel betrayed, used and angry ??? would you then hear the tunes in a different light and would it colour your thoughts on any future releases ???

Except that most of Menta now make incredibly cheesy Hed Kandi style Euro-house.

And Arthur Smith is rumored to be half of Magnetic Man.

You think that ex 2-Step producers would have a less romantic view of the music than Burial does, they almost all make house of varying styles and quality now.

this thread is confirming all my concerns about paying attention to this genre

Get out, while you still don't care!

the problem with this thread is that it's been overrun by rampaging IDM-ists

...i dont even know what idm is ???

You think that ex 2-Step producers would have a less romantic view of the music than Burial does,

...guilty feet have got no rhythm

and there is no problem in this thread...

"oh you can but that still doesn't mean you "know" it's him or that he's being entirely honest. Methinks its the anonymity thing covering the fact that he may be a name producer of past 2step which precludes me from believing he is what he says he is and the music is what it is...ie a new take on a past genre reflected through the eyes/ears of someone who wasn't ther to enjoy it forst time around. That and knowing it may all just be a cleverly contrived kode9 hyperstitious social experiment."

i'm not sure that he ever said he wasn't there the first time and ive read every interview with him. to me it would make a lot of sense if he WAS an old 2-step or jungle producer.

"...would it make much difference to you if burial came out and said he was menta/artwork ??? would you feel betrayed, used and angry ??? would you then hear the tunes in a different light and would it colour your thoughts on any future releases ???

-- pollywog"

it would make no difference to me. the first menta record was awesome, actually:

http://www.discogs.com/release/1138589

how many of you guys got that on white label from Big Apple mail order when it came out? i did.... ;P

but it seems to me that someone would be very likely to yearn for that old feeling, to ditch the weak parts of the genre if they actually went down that bad path and found it less than satisfying!

I feel that the world would likely end if someone put vahid, pipecock and blunt in the same room for any period of time.

neo-rockism vs ultra-contrarianism.

"...you got funky house for that shit"

This is a silly sub-Martin Clark position to take. It's not like any kind of levity or lightheartedness automatically = funky house. And it's not like funky house is automatically bad anyway!

I'd struggle to come up with 5 dubstep tracks I like more than DJ Abstract's "Touch", considered a dubstep track last time I checked. Why should making tunes in that vein be considered anathema, pollywog?

"how many of you guys got that on white label from Big Apple mail order when it came out? i did.... ;P"

Yes this is precisely the way to establish your credentials in this thread pipecock.

"I'd struggle to come up with 5 dubstep tracks I like more than DJ Abstract's "Touch", considered a dubstep track last time I checked. Why should making tunes in that vein be considered anathema, pollywog?"

that was the last track i bought in the "dubstep" vein before burial surfaced. that had to have been like what, 03? that shit was ill, remineded me more of old 2-step than what dubstep became. if more of the tunes were like that i'd have been buying lots more!

"Yes this is precisely the way to establish your credentials in this thread pipecock.

-- Tim F"

;P

I luv the funky house for the opposite reason i like dubstep...

...light expansive vs dark oppressive

people can do/make whatever they like and i don't have to like it. I'd hate for there to be a dark funky house trak cos then it wouldn't be funky house like i'm not really into the light fluffy dubstep traks either, not that there are too many of those, thank fuck...

...besides 'touch' isn't exactly a smiley tune

<i> I'd hate for there to be a dark funky house trak cos then it wouldn't be funky house like i'm not really into the light fluffy dubstep traks either, not that there are too many of those, thank fuck...</i>

How is this even vaguely defensible?

Woops, fucked up my italics.

How is this even vaguely defensible?

drunken monkey styles...

...think about it

to make dubstep light hearted and smiley is to negate what dubstep is...

...it's not happy music,it's dread muisc

"Touch" is certainly more up-feeling, pretty, feminine and housey than most dubstep.

I am not sure why that is necessarily wrong.

In fact there used to be heaps of tunes in this vein. Think of Zed Bias's remix of 2 Banks of 4's "Hook and a Line", or Horsepower Productions' "Django's Revenge"... Sure these tracks were part of the transition from 2-step to dubstep, but at what stage did it suddenly become verboten to play around with this feel?

...i reckon at about the same time as the garage guys started making funky house and the d'n'b guys started making dubstep

Yeah titchy is closer to the mark I think...

"gentrifying them to get rid of the stuff that might be seen as 'embarassing'"

This is basically what i mean by "rudeboyism" - what Simon Reynolds always described as a flava/cheese axis.

-- Tim F

Theres something here to resist, isn't there? A counter-fetishization of the street?

Ok vigilance, vigilance against cults of the artist and all claims for transcendence. But going one better, and sniffing for any music which accidentally makes itself vulnerable to that kind of misuse? Its the consumer doing the gentrifying, and less the producer, isn't it? Or, what femininity, what roughness is lacking from 'Untrue'?

But maybe its true--what if Burial, who is coded white and well educated, is afraid of something in the ugly & promiscuous & vibrantly pulsating street? If he is, then isn't his sin inauthenticity? Distance from where its really at? Is it possible to make it sound rudeboy when you are just posing? Do his sounds fail on these terms always, necessarily, cuz of--cultural disconnect?

Where does that leave us? and where does that leave... us?

I should say I know nothing of music mention on this here, except I have 'the Roots of Dubstep' and both 'Box of Dub' albums; yet I have learn much from reading this thread. I was wondering what is the music on the Soul Jazz Compilation 'Rumble in the Jungle' showcasing? How does it fit into Jungle/D&B/2step/grime etc.. Also where would one start if I were to explore 2step, I think I would be more inclined to like it.

"I should say I know nothing of music mention on this here, except I have 'the Roots of Dubstep' and both 'Box of Dub' albums; yet I have learn much from reading this thread. I was wondering what is the music on the Soul Jazz Compilation 'Rumble in the Jungle' showcasing? How does it fit into Jungle/D&B/2step/grime etc.. Also where would one start if I were to explore 2step, I think I would be more inclined to like it.

-- JacobSanders"

"rumble in the jungle" is what is generally referred to as "ragga jungle". the stuff on that comp is from 90-95 and shows the progression of reggae influence from hardcore into jungle. some good stuff on there, not necessarily the best stuff in the genre, but they put on some of my favorites ("under mi sensi" jungle mix!). there are probably some other slskable ragga jungle comps for more specific periods of time in there, 95 was kind of the heyday really.

i think this is a good intro to 2-step:

http://www.discogs.com/release/73083

lots of variety in producers and sounds, lots and lots of anthems. there were alot of good 2-step comps though, and lots of good songs!

"But maybe its true--what if Burial, who is coded white and well educated, is afraid of something in the ugly & promiscuous & vibrantly pulsating street? If he is, then isn't his sin inauthenticity? Distance from where its really at? Is it possible to make it sound rudeboy when you are just posing? Do his sounds fail on these terms always, necessarily, cuz of--cultural disconnect?

-- walter benjamin"

i dont doubt that there is some of this going on, definitely a lot of it happened in the move from jungle to drum and bass. but i dont think burial is doing that kind of thing either. if anything, the cultural disconnect is because the music he is making probably appeals more to an older crowd who remembers the music he likes than whatever the younger crowd is doing, that is just a symptom of the hyper-accelerated dubplate culture mentality inherent in these kinds of music.

d'n'b guys never really got into garage so when they moved across to making dubstep their beat 'roots' weren't in the stuttery, staggered type of 2 step style so it was much easier to just slow their tunes down and clone the halfstep to suit...

"d'n'b guys never really got into garage"

!! What on earth are you basing this one on.

"But maybe its true--what if Burial, who is coded white and well educated, is afraid of something in the ugly & promiscuous & vibrantly pulsating street? If he is, then isn't his sin inauthenticity? Distance from where its really at? Is it possible to make it sound rudeboy when you are just posing? Do his sounds fail on these terms always, necessarily, cuz of--cultural disconnect"

An absence of flavour isn't a necessary outcome of some sort of metaphysical relationship to the streets, it's a contingent musical outcome based on the choices a producer makes. I'd have no idea whether Burial is more or less street than other dubstep producers, other 2-step producers. Why should that form some potential barrier to the possibility of his music being good? The above quote implies that there is some sort of customs that the music has to pass through on the way from the record towards your ears where the artist has to prove their credentials before anything you hear in their music can be taken seriously.

Why on earth is every single discussion about dubstep so obsessed by such things? Why must even ILM discussions of dubstep end up mimicking tiresomely the same issues that are obsessed over in Dissensus discussions?

i'm going to go out on a limb here and say maybe its because of problems at the heart of the idea of "hardcore continuum"?

Hmm maybe, except that the notion of continuum is so obviously clearly about the audience, whereas under the weird dissensian nu-rockist twist it suddenly becomes about the creator.

Possibly the cult of personality that grew up around grime is partially to blame.

One of the great things about 2-step is that no-one knew or cared who chancers like Dubaholics, the Wideboys, United Grooves Collective or Club Asylum actually were. They just made amazing tunes.

well see that's the problem. if you're going to build a music theory around "THIS is the sound of the council estate" then you're going to have new zealanders and new englanders (and californians and australians and middle-class brits and whoever else is at enough of a remove) eliding their idea of the audience and the creator and whatever they perceive is the population of the council estate

i'm not really sure what makes this elision possible except the lazy faux-ethnography of dissensian music criticism?

Yeah that makes sense actually.

Hey Vahid I'm not sure if you saw my comment in the french house thread but i've been crushing on your jess & Crabbe CDs again. So good!

I want to start a DJ night where I play:
- full on Crydamoure french house sliding into Jess & Crabbe --> Basement Jaxx hardcore b-sides
- New Horizons style speed garage
- Only the best in early Wild Pitch/Foremost Poets style dark Nu Groove/Strictly Rhythm stuff
- Aaron Carl and similar

"ruffhouse"

:D

Srsly though I think that New Horizons' miniscule output is probably the centre of my aesthetic universe.

"Hmm maybe, except that the notion of continuum is so obviously clearly about the audience, whereas under the weird dissensian nu-rockist twist it suddenly becomes about the creator.

One of the great things about 2-step is that no-one knew or cared who chancers like Dubaholics, the Wideboys, United Grooves Collective or Club Asylum actually were. They just made amazing tunes.

-- Tim F"

music is always about the creator. otherwise every record would have an equal chance of being good, and that isn't the case at all. caring about who specifically an individual is is irrelevent, it only matters that there is an individual making that music and that they are good at doing it.

amazing that "scrap iron dubs" never made it onto CD anywhere.

music is always about the creator

what does "about" mean

otherwise every record would have an equal chance of being good

i'm not an actuary

and that isn't the case at all

so some music has a better "chance" of being good? are you a music actuary, or a music listener?

caring about who specifically an individual is is irrelevent

why? how else should we care about individuals, if not in specific? should we think about individuals abstractly? why is it irrelevant to know who a musician is? if individuals are irrelevant, why do you harp on about "theo and omar" (first names only, thanks) so much? why bother to interview omar s at all?

it only matters that there is an individual making that music and that they are good at doing it

why does this matter? why not just say that it matters that the music is good? or that omar s made a good song by accident, does that matter too? what if a song is bad, does that matter?

"amazing that "scrap iron dubs" never made it onto CD anywhere.

-- moonship journey to baja"

it made it onto mix CDs in my car mixed by me ;)

big FUCKING WHOOP you FUCKING MICROBE

your problem, pipecock, is that you seem entirely too obsessed with figuring out which music is GOOD and which music is BAD.

i've noticed that very rarely do you talk about your reaction to music. have you forgotten how to say "I ENJOYED this music", instead it's always like "THIS MUSIC is GOOD because THE MUSIC makes THOSE PEOPLE freak out out on the dancefloor".

if music is BAD (trance) then it's BAD because THOSE PEOPLE (white suburban trance fans?) like THAT BAD MUSIC (trance?) and because THAT BAD MUSIC is not related to THAT GOOD MUSIC (soul + r+b + reggae + tribal drums)

even when you do have reactions to music, it's always couched in the song as an object (that song is DEEP, that song is OBVIOUS, that song is FODDER, those beats are WICKED, the energy is IN THERE) or the creator as an object ("i knew that he had been listening to the same things i had" or "i thought he was almost there but not quite" or "they could no longer be successful doing that kind of stuff. that was a huge problem for me")

and you NEVER EVER EVER talk about the creator or listener as a subject with desires, the only time you even talk about desires is when you say "i always wanted to mix it up, play old shit, new shit of different styles, etc", but why is never clear, you just parrot the tired-ass disco/house mythology of "people have been dancing to that shit for over 30 years. and in many cases, THE SAME people have been dancing to it for that long, the old the new and everything in between."

which is true of lawrence welk, and true at the renaissance faire (dancing to the same beat for 500 years!), and you never EVER interrogate why, you just repeat the same tired-ass line ...

and god forbid you NEVER EVER talk about "this was OBVIOUS to ME because I am like THIS" or "this was OBNOXIOUS to ME because I am like this", you never even bother to consider the point of view of view or the subjectivity of the other, the person to whom 2-step garage might not be obvious, or obnoxious, or fodder, or even why they might want to make that, or why an obvious experience might be a deep one (see rob themco's awe-inspiring breakdown of JME's "tropical" mixtape)

i mean it makes me SPITTING MAD that you people waste blog-length typing sessions making nonsensical declarative sentences, that you've talked for what seems like 300 posts (time doesn't fly when you're not having fun) and i still don't know a damn thing about you our what makes your taste the way it is, hell, i don't even understand your taste because all i know about your taste is the nonsensical dogmas that it's wrapped in ("this record is DEEP and that record is FODDER")

"music is always about the creator

what does "about" mean"

i mean that a scene is a scene, but the artist is always the most important part. 100000 people can like a bad record, and 10 people can like a good record, the records are still the same.

"otherwise every record would have an equal chance of being good

i'm not an actuary

and that isn't the case at all

so some music has a better "chance" of being good? are you a music actuary, or a music listener?"

yes, music made by good artists has a much better chance of being good than music made by some joker who is trying to make tracks to get pussy or to look cool or whatever. not that these are mutually exclusive, but surely you get the point. good tracks are not made randomly (though some people get lucky once!), so what that has to do with an audience is beyond me.

"caring about who specifically an individual is is irrelevent

why? how else should we care about individuals, if not in specific? should we think about individuals abstractly? why is it irrelevant to know who a musician is? if individuals are irrelevant, why do you harp on about "theo and omar" (first names only, thanks) so much? why bother to interview omar s at all?"

the point is that their name is meaningless. really, knowing anything about them is nearly irrelevent, but its interesting for people who like the music to know. knowing the person's name doesnt make their music better or worse. but their individuality, that which makes them different from joe blow down the street who makes garbage music, is indeed very important in the abstract sense.

"it only matters that there is an individual making that music and that they are good at doing it

why does this matter? why not just say that it matters that the music is good? or that omar s made a good song by accident, does that matter too? what if a song is bad, does that matter?

-- moonship journey to baja"

its quite possible for one hit wonders to exist, maybe even a few two hit wonders. but if someone gets it right a large percentage of the time, it is no longer luck. music doesnt make itself, it comes from someone. the great artists are what made jungle and 2-step great. though there were plenty of decent one hit wonder type records, great labels and great artists led the way every time. just look at how many innovations in the music came from Metalheadz, Good Looking, Movin Shadow, Locked On, Public Demand, Social Circles, etc.

see you can't even talk about the listener!! you start to in the first thread but then it turns into drivel about the "great artists".

i mean the first sentence

good tracks are not made randomly (though some people get lucky once!), so what that has to do with an audience is beyond me

^^ where is the SUBJECT you MORANS

tbh though, i can understand how the sort of thing pipecock's on about forms as a kneejerk assumption, however lightly or tightly it ends up being held. tim's lament a coupla posts up seems all idealistically nourishing only until you have to think about glossing over, christ i dunno, shadetek in nyc uselessly sticking their oar into grime, or grime kids doing likewise for nyc mixtape rappers, or years of crap american junglists, or what the fuck ever. (spoiled house dudes be panglossian!!)

having said that, it's only really an issue when these producers expect their stuff to slot right in to the context concerned with no consideration of how their own context's informed/malformed the tune. this isn't something i can charge burial with, in this partic case; i can however judge him on those terms, like tim did a million posts above, if they're the ones that float my boat. although tim didn't do that either did he, he judged them on burial's reception from people who weren't operating on those terms, and this is also what jealous partisan peoples afraid of their scene's misrepresentation are doing, albeit with way too much angry angry angst for any sane person to stomach.

xp sigh this thread goes way too fast

"big FUCKING WHOOP you FUCKING MICROBE

your problem, pipecock, is that you seem entirely too obsessed with figuring out which music is GOOD and which music is BAD."

i guess i could spend more time looking for mediocre crap like most people seem to!

i like and listen to all kinds of music. i know that is trite to say in 2007, but that doesnt make it any less true. i am interested in those techno records that are effective techno records based on what techno music does. i am not interested in what a rock-centered person thinks about techno because he is listening to different things. what i am all about is twisting my perception of things to fit the different music and the styles of listening necessary to appreciate those different musics. once you understand the genre, you can judge pretty easily whether something is effective or not, whether it is good or bad. i am not flawless at this, only more time listening to more music will make me better able to make these judgements.

"i've noticed that very rarely do you talk about your reaction to music. have you forgotten how to say "I ENJOYED this music", instead it's always like "THIS MUSIC is GOOD because THE MUSIC makes THOSE PEOPLE freak out out on the dancefloor"."

nah, its not all about dancefloor reaction for me. it certainly helps when youre making dance music in particular though!

"if music is BAD (trance) then it's BAD because THOSE PEOPLE (white suburban trance fans?) like THAT BAD MUSIC (trance?) and because THAT BAD MUSIC is not related to THAT GOOD MUSIC (soul + r+b + reggae + tribal drums)"

the only reason people listen to bad music is because alot of good music is difficult. most people can recognize what makes a good pop song, even if it is not to their taste. way way fewer know what makes a jazz song good or bad, since relatively few even understand HOW to listen to jazz to make that value judgement. trance is easy for non-dance music people to understand because it maps out all the emotion for you. it builds up with a drum roll, people are supposed to get excited. whoop-dee-fucking-doo.

"even when you do have reactions to music, it's always couched in the song as an object or the creator as an object"

i cannot read minds, can you? i cannot speak for exactly what drives any creative person. in fact, im not sure i would really want to know. its like the concept of being shown something vs being told it. i dont want to be told anything, be it in writing, film, or music. effective art can do that and people can arrive at the same place without knowing exactly what got them there. THAT IS WHAT INTERESTS ME!

"and you NEVER EVER EVER talk about the creator or listener as a subject with desires, the only time you even talk about desires is when you say "i always wanted to mix it up, play old shit, new shit of different styles, etc", but why is never clear, you just parrot the tired-ass disco/house mythology of "people have been dancing to that shit for over 30 years. and in many cases, THE SAME people have been dancing to it for that long, the old the new and everything in between.""

i believe i have said (numerous times in this thread alone, in fact) that i am interested in what makes music timeless, what makes certain pieces able to speak to people over long periods of time and across many cultures. this is the true power of any art! i can only speak for what i have deduced from my experiences, and how i manage to apply what i have learned to what i do and what the experiences i expect from it and receive from it are like.

"which is true of lawrence welk, and true at the renaissance faire (dancing to the same beat for 500 years!), and you never EVER interrogate why, you just repeat the same tired-ass line ..."

i dont think that music crosses the cultural lines quite so obviously. folk musics in general are pretty interesting because they are the result of one specific culture evolving over a long period of time. i am way more interested though in the huge appeal that african american music has and has had since the music has been exported over the last 100 years or so. something in there speaks to people, it has been called "soul". the ideas, techniques, and whatever else leads to that power in expression is my primary interest. i like all kinds of music, but that is what i focus on.

"and god forbid you NEVER EVER talk about "this was OBVIOUS to ME because I am like THIS" or "this was OBNOXIOUS to ME because I am like this", you never even bother to consider the point of view of view or the subjectivity of the other, the person to whom 2-step garage might not be obvious, or obnoxious, or fodder, or even why they might want to make that, or why an obvious experience might be a deep one (see rob themco's awe-inspiring breakdown of JME's "tropical" mixtape)

-- moonship journey to baja"

a 2-step record can be heard by 10,000,000 people, but only those who know how to understand the music can really say anything definitive about it. what interested me about this Burial record is the fact that for one album, THIS IS NOT TRUE. that is truly astounding! that is something that should be of great interest to anyone interested in this music! music that is uncompromising, yet appeals to people who should not be able to understand it under the limited conditions of its genre that they know nothing about.

this doesnt happen all that frequently, but when it does, i love it and i like to see exactly what it is that causes nonsense perceptions that people have to no longer matter. house music especially was very interesting to me because it was so wild and avant-garde and diverse, yet populist at the same time! that level of effectiveness is what i strive for in music. i want to be able to do all sorts of craziness, and have people understand it without having to do anything. is it possible? maybe not, but that is what i am pursuing.

the great artists are what made jungle and 2-step great

^^ NO PIPECOCK NO

its like what happens with deep house, where at some point a 110 BPM dirty disco loop repeated ad nauseum that would be a boring listen at best and isnt even considered "house" music by some people will cause a near riot, the energy is in there but it is just "deep", its not simplistic dancefloor fodder like jungle or 2-step can often be

^^

see you contradict yourself here, here the music is great because it makes an imaginary third person dance, not the music is great because of the creator

but you are WRONG, the ENERGY is not in the record, the ENERGY is in the AUDIENCE, the ENERGY is in YOU, pipecock, and your childlike belief in them, and your childlike belief in your own powers as an arbiter of taste.

and you know what's fucked up is that i sort of respect this, even though you haven't even got that freshman-in-college level of courage to closely examine what makes this possible, what you think gives you the power to tell apart the quality of music that makes 100000 people dance (say, the macarena or a haddaway song) versus the "dirty disco loops" that "will cause a near riot" for theo parrish fans

and i would even give you a pass, and let you continue that claim that what is subjective is actually objective, like everyone else does on ILX, except that *unlike* many other people on ILX (and like some other very tiresome people on this and many other dance threads and boards) you're not even willing to give us the *tiniest* glimpse of any sort of process or any sort of active engagement with this music, it's just endless declarative sentences about the perceived qualities of music without any sense of the perceiver's role in all of this

listening to you talk about music is like watching a fucking robot sorting out defective peanuts at the factory (this one passes ... this one passes ... this one FAILS BZZZZT ... this one passes ...) crossed with watching a homeless person theorize about the world trade center, it's that same endless confusion of CAUSES with EFFECTS (oh right, it's the "great artists" and their internal greatness that makes them great, not the fans, nothing behind this curtain) and vice-versae

makes ME want to PUKE, SIR

me: your problem, pipecock, is that you seem entirely too obsessed with figuring out which music is GOOD and which music is BAD."

you: i am not flawless at this only more time listening to more music will make me better able to make these judgements

QED!

the only reason people listen to bad music is because alot of good music is difficult

QED again AND you're a prick!

i cannot read minds, can you?

you should be able to read, and speak for, your own, rather than speaking for tens of thousands of listeners, as you did upthread?

its like the concept of being shown something vs being told it. i dont want to be told anything, be it in writing, film, or music

ah, but you have no problem telling me what is good music and what is bad music, and when you try to show me how or why, you show me imaginary dancefloors and imaginary "deep" listeners that have the secret knowledge to unlock the music that teenagers and grandmas and dubstep fans don't, but you can't even SHOW me how it affects YOU, you can just refer to your credentials ("i dj'ed with scrap iron dubs back in 2001!") and endless strawmen and endless fake musicology

i guess i understand now why geir winds people up so bad??

I blame myself partially for this, but why is the IDM list inside this thread? :(

"the great artists are what made jungle and 2-step great

^^ NO PIPECOCK NO"

so what was? the crappy quality white label bootlegs? some of those were amusing, but i mean the level of nonsense crap (both legal and illegal releases) was no different from any other genre. it all works out the same in any kind of music, some people are good at making it, most are trash.

"see you contradict yourself here, here the music is great because it makes an imaginary third person dance, not the music is great because of the creator"

exactly wrong. im not sure how you could get that out of that statement. the meaning of that statement is that PEOPLE MAY HAVE NO IDEA HOW TO EVEN JUDGE WHETHER MUSIC IS GOOD OR BAD UNTIL THEY EXPERIENCE IT THE WAY IT IS MEANT TO BE EXPERIENCED. its like listening to gabber when youre trying to go to sleep, will any of it be particularly useful? nah.

"but you are WRONG, the ENERGY is not in the record, the ENERGY is in the AUDIENCE, the ENERGY is in YOU, pipecock, and your childlike belief in them, and your childlike belief in your own powers as an arbiter of taste."

then why is every deejay night/music show of any sort not a rip roaring party? if the energy is in the people, why doesnt it just come out?

"and you know what's fucked up is that i sort of respect this, even though you haven't even got that freshman-in-college level of courage to closely examine what makes this possible, what you think gives you the power to tell apart the quality of music that makes 100000 people dance (say, the macarena or a haddaway song) versus the "dirty disco loops" that "will cause a near riot" for theo parrish fans"

what gives anyone any greater knowledge about anything that someone else? years of study, obsessive desire to learn all i can, years of hard work, etc etc.

one of the best things about theo parrish records, and the reason i am so interested in his music in particular, is the fact that when placed properly in a set by a deejay who knows what they are doing, those records tear up people who have no fucking clue about dance music. i've seen it happen many times with different deejays, ive even used them like that myself more than a few times. the problem is that outside of that moment they are made for, im not sure how easy it is for most people to understand WHY that repetition and dirtiness is such a good thing.

"and i would even give you a pass, and let you continue that claim that what is subjective is actually objective, like everyone else does on ILX, except that *unlike* many other people on ILX (and like some other very tiresome people on this and many other dance threads and boards) you're not even willing to give us the *tiniest* glimpse of any sort of process or any sort of active engagement with this music, it's just endless declarative sentences about the perceived qualities of music without any sense of the perceiver's role in all of this"

i just made a whole post about this. happy?

"listening to you talk about music is like watching a fucking robot sorting out defective peanuts at the factory (this one passes ... this one passes ... this one FAILS BZZZZT ... this one passes ...) crossed with watching a homeless person theorize about the world trade center, it's that same endless confusion of CAUSES with EFFECTS (oh right, it's the "great artists" and their internal greatness that makes them great, not the fans, nothing behind this curtain) and vice-versae

makes ME want to PUKE, SIR

-- moonship journey to baja"

puke, then!

BITCH, PLEASE

then why is every deejay night/music show of any sort not a rip roaring party? if the energy is in the people, why doesnt it just come out?

it does fool, it does, it doesn't need years of study, it doesn't need obsessive desire to learn, it doesn't need years of hard work, it doesn't need theo parrish or a schooled DJ with theo parrish records

all you need is a wedding + a grandma

"yes, music made by good artists has a much better chance of being good than music made by some joker who is trying to make tracks to get pussy or to look cool or whatever. not that these are mutually exclusive, but surely you get the point. good tracks are not made randomly (though some people get lucky once!), so what that has to do with an audience is beyond me."

Apart from all the objections Vahid raised (which I cosign), what always confuses me about this it implies that the easiest way to get a sense of whether a record is good is to track down its maker and ask if he or she was only doing it for pussy, or perhaps arranging a poll amongst a selection of good citizens to determine whether its maker is in fact one the "great artists and great labels".

How about listening to the record, and describing what you hear and how it makes you feel? Surely this is the first and most important component in responding to (and judging) a record? Surely we can only say that Locked On was a "great label" because we listened to and thought about what tunes like "Destiny" and "Straight From The Heart" and "All I Know" and "Neighbourhood" and "U&I" and "Here Come The Lick" and "Down Down Down Biznizz" were actually doing??

""tbh though, i can understand how the sort of thing pipecock's on about forms as a kneejerk assumption, however lightly or tightly it ends up being held. tim's lament a coupla posts up seems all idealistically nourishing only until you have to think about glossing over, christ i dunno, shadetek in nyc uselessly sticking their oar into grime, or grime kids doing likewise for nyc mixtape rappers, or years of crap american junglists, or what the fuck ever. (spoiled house dudes be panglossian!!)"

I tend to think, though, that the realisation that you don't need to keep up with American jungle or American grime (or bad UK versions of US rap) can be gleaned directly from the music itself. I mean, how else do these realisations get formed? If Shadetek's meddling in grime resulted in good music from your perspective i imagine you'd be less inclined to hold his Americanness against him.

I'm not going to say that it's as likely for good 2-step or grime to come out of the US or Australia as it is from the UK. It's just not. But the failure of such records doesn't need their dubious heritage to be known in order to be evident - you can hear it in the music. Conversely I think there are examples of people breaking the rules and actually making good records against these odds all the time - hence house dudes being spoiled! Who knew the French would be so good at house? Should we have legislated to stop them trying at some point in the early 90s, just on principle?

In retrospect you can look at these records whether success or failures and make a call about the contribution of the artist's identity to that success/failure, but there's no necessary outcome, even if sometimes the stats (e.g. the number of great US jungle records) make it look that way.

Also, the moment people start thinking too much about "realness" (or any similar concept), they actually drag their ears away from this truth - the concept just becomes all-conquering and progressively stamps out subtlety and nuance. One of the things I always loved about the use of "real" on Spizzazzz was this sense that (at least to me) it expressed some totally contradictory and layered notion about an artist being in the right place at the right time and in the right frame of mind to make a record that other people weren't game to (e.g. the "realness" of a major label R&B singer making a fabulous ballad). But the realness flows from the quality of the record rather than the other way round.

"me: your problem, pipecock, is that you seem entirely too obsessed with figuring out which music is GOOD and which music is BAD."

you: i am not flawless at this only more time listening to more music will make me better able to make these judgements

QED!

the only reason people listen to bad music is because alot of good music is difficult

QED again AND you're a prick!"

did i ever say i wasn't a prick? ask me if i give a shit what you or anyone else thinks of me. i just do my thing.

"you should be able to read, and speak for, your own, rather than speaking for tens of thousands of listeners, as you did upthread?"

and when did i do that?

"ah, but you have no problem telling me what is good music and what is bad music, and when you try to show me how or why, you show me imaginary dancefloors and imaginary "deep" listeners that have the secret knowledge to unlock the music that teenagers and grandmas and dubstep fans don't, but you can't even SHOW me how it affects YOU, you can just refer to your credentials ("i dj'ed with scrap iron dubs back in 2001!") and endless strawmen and endless fake musicology

-- moonship journey to baja"

this relates almost directly to a comment i made in the "Your Last Paradigm Shift" thread: i can't force you to be able to understand music you don't understand. and as i said upthread (also numerous times!), what is great about what music does is that it communicates things that cannot be put into words. maybe you like the stream of consciousness crapola that comes out when people try to explain that (i dont!), or maybe youre interested in people criticising music on technical merits or something (irrelevent). i cant say. all i know is that when something moves me, it moves me. i dont prefer to analyse it any more than trying to understand WHY.

i cite my credentials because that is what is important. i am not analysing 2-step through rose colored glasses from a time that is way beyond it happening. i was as much in it as i could be from the US, i was one of the 3 people in my city trying to make people think outside their boxes and understand something that was a little different.

"it does fool, it does, it doesn't need years of study, it doesn't need obsessive desire to learn, it doesn't need years of hard work, it doesn't need theo parrish or a schooled DJ with theo parrish records

all you need is a wedding + a grandma

-- moonship journey to baja"

so why go to clubs at all? why care what music you listen to or what the venue is like or anything else? why not just turn on FM radio in your room and go nuts???? why can't you make a value judgement even on the quality of nights out that OBVIOUSLY are not equal? my guess is youve never had a music experience that truly blew your mind.

LOL

still waiting for those thomas pipecock CDRs, yes

j/k, i have, it was called "crazy frog"

"Apart from all the objections Vahid raised (which I cosign), what always confuses me about this it implies that the easiest way to get a sense of whether a record is good is to track down its maker and ask if he or she was only doing it for pussy, or perhaps arranging a poll amongst a selection of good citizens to determine whether its maker is in fact one the "great artists and great labels"."

nah, i think it is almost always going to be obvious from the final product. if you concentrate solely on making great music, it seems that will come out. if you are worried about other things, thats when things go wrong. its obvious when you look at bands whose first album is awesome, when they had something they were really trying to say. and then once they were comfortable and had less to say, their music declines. art without expression ends up being bad art, almost always.

"How about listening to the record, and describing what you hear and how it makes you feel? Surely this is the first and most important component in responding to (and judging) a record? Surely we can only say that Locked On was a "great label" because we listened to and thought about what tunes like "Destiny" and "Straight From The Heart" and "All I Know" and "Neighbourhood" and "U&I" and "Here Come The Lick" and "Down Down Down Biznizz" were actually doing??"

but they were not doing the same things! the funny thing about it, is that there is no blanket statement for what makes a record great. it can be some arrangement, some melodic/harmonic composition, some mood, some atmosphere, some texture, etc etc etc. each one does it in its own combination of those elements. but what doesnt change is the fact that the people making them were somehow inspired to make something that was great and will remain so. unless you think it is all luck and randomness in a large group of peoples' perceptions?

"I'm not going to say that it's as likely for good 2-step or grime to come out of the US or Australia as it is from the UK. It's just not. But the failure of such records doesn't need their dubious heritage to be known in order to be evident - you can hear it in the music."

!!!!!!!!!!!

that is my point EXACTLY! and the point ive been trying to drive home here! you might not even be able to specify in words what is "wrong" with that kind of music, but you can hear that something ain't right. and the same is true for the good music!

"Conversely I think there are examples of people breaking the rules and actually making good records against these odds all the time - hence house dudes being spoiled! Who knew the French would be so good at house? Should we have legislated to stop them trying at some point in the early 90s, just on principle?"

i will say that a listen to daft punk's "teachers" shows why they were so good. they understood the music from being taught by the records that mattered. and i think you can say the same thing about pepe braddock (who plays all kinds of detroit, NYC, and chicago techno and house when he deejays!) as well as some others. but how many copycat french filter house tracks were there where those people DIDN'T have that knowledge and understanding that have gone by the wayside? way more than there were good ones!

"In retrospect you can look at these records whether success or failures and make a call about the contribution of the artist's identity to that success/failure, but there's no necessary outcome, even if sometimes the stats (e.g. the number of great US jungle records) make it look that way."

there is no NECESSARY outcome, but it is almost too easy to predict. the number of people who can make good music without a good background in the music is very very small.

"But the realness flows from the quality of the record rather than the other way round.

-- Tim F"

but the quality of the record relies on the songwriter's skill, the performer's skill, and the performer's performance! the record does not become good in a vacuum!

"still waiting for those thomas pipecock CDRs, yes

-- moonship journey to baja"

if you want some mixes, they are available on my blog.

So I got a certain something in the mail today. And I have my doubts.

Ned, you will never hear the sound of recorded crackling vinyl the same ever again. The humanity.

I...I see a darkness.

tim i absolutely agree obv! i am just saying that i can see how the statistics can come to fog up people's glasses over in prolonged and wearying practice, is all. and yeah, plenty of great tunes have been made when outsiders have brought their own perspectives to the table. and usually the failures of foreign producers are down to an overthunk realness, too. uuuuunless of course they attain the prized rarity of the SUPER REAL that an indigenous type is too close to see - uh oh this is what p-cock is saying haha

i promise i've thought this position out over a long period of time, i'm not just making it up as i go along!

geir has been around forever also

so many dudes on soulstrut think like this, its v. frustrating

Having any kind of critical thought about the music is very refreshing after an hour or two of reading people in financial relationships with each other big each other up on the Dubstep forum.

Whoops, stepped back into the clusterfuck.

I'm surprised that more of those guys on Soulstrut aren't into deep house, you'd think the leap from J Dilla to Moodymann wouldn't be that huge.

Of course some of these guys still use the expression "new jack" as a diss, so the antipathy for house is only what 20 odd years old now?

there have been like 8 threads on moodymann there in the past couple months

Alright I either need to stop half heartedly lurking, or show up when the good conversations are happening.

I thought I saw one maybe.

Apologies.

10 years ago somewhere:

"Having any kind of critical thought about the music is very refreshing after an hour or two of reading people in financial relationships with each other big each other up on the IDM forum.

Whoops, stepped back into the clusterfuck."

There's a new artist on Warp - Flying Lotus Reset - who often sounds like he's saying "Do you see?!? Dilla and Moodymann are alike! DO YOU SEE?!?!" But he's not very good.

"but they were not doing the same things! the funny thing about it, is that there is no blanket statement for what makes a record great. it can be some arrangement, some melodic/harmonic composition, some mood, some atmosphere, some texture, etc etc etc. each one does it in its own combination of those elements."

Can I turn around and say !!!EXACTLY!!! Hence me asking you to refer to the actual music when describing why a record is good rather than sweep it all aside and say "oh that doesn't matter, this artist was a genius and had he made the tune with a tin can and a box of tissues it would still have been timeless! It was on Locked On, hence it was brilliant QED!"

"but what doesnt change is the fact that the people making them were somehow inspired to make something that was great and will remain so. unless you think it is all luck and randomness in a large group of peoples' perceptions?"

Why is the choice between eternal inspriation and luck/randomness?? Look at the Wideboys (who also had a single on Locked On) - during 2000 they were probably the most dominant producers in terms of club play and the stuff they made then still sounds amazing, really a kind of pinnacle for an aesthetic of ruthlessness that was still catchy. Within a few years, dismayed at their own lack of commercial success they were making precisely the sort of funky house that pollywog despises (compare and contrast the two versions of "Sambuca"). Now they're trying to have it both ways by setting themselves up as an alternative Freemasons on the one hand (with Rihanna as their Beyonce) and making Bassline tracks on the other. They're precisely the sort of producers who get cold-shouldered by pretty much any genius-focused approach to dance music, and yet, undeniably, their creative contribution to 2-step was as great as any other production team, up there with yer more typically canonised Steve Gurleys and El-Bs. Judging by their subsequent career parth we have to assume that there was a strong mercantile impulse to their 2-step garage period as well, but that doesn't change the brilliance of that music.

How to explain it? Perhaps it's not a case of "genius" as such. Perhaps it's a case of reasonably talented producers being in the right place at the right time and stumbling on a sound that worked marvellously, then exploiting that for as long as they could. In a scene that valued sonic novelty, that meant constantly pushing that sound further and further, until they exhausted its potential at some point in mid-2001 or so. An 18-month moment in the sun is not quite what hagiographies are made of, but tracing their work chronologically over that period makes for one of my favourite little sonic narratives ever.

"that is my point EXACTLY! and the point ive been trying to drive home here! you might not even be able to specify in words what is "wrong" with that kind of music, but you can hear that something ain't right. and the same is true for the good music!"

Actually, I'd say you can almost always specify what is "wrong" or "right" with a record, perhaps not exhaustively but certainly to the point of exhaustion - discussions about what is actually "right" or "wrong" with the music itself makes for most of the best discussions about music on ILM.

Possibly you're extrapolating from your own aversion to talking about music in and of itself, and elevating this inarticulate position to the level of a universal principle.

Flying Lotus just did a back to back set with Kode 9 on Rinse.

Apparently he's also a big fan of Skream.

I can only hope that means his beats are going to move away from hiphop tempo.

tim i would change this

you can almost always specify what is "wrong" or "right" with a record, perhaps not exhaustively but certainly to the point of exhaustion

to this

you can always almost specify what is "wrong" or "right" with a record, perhaps not exhaustively but certainly to the point of exhaustion

see what i did dere?

"There's a new artist on Warp - Flying Lotus Reset - who often sounds like he's saying "Do you see?!? Dilla and Moodymann are alike! DO YOU SEE?!?!" But he's not very good."

hmm, i cant agree that he is not very good. he may not be at the level of those two artists, but that reset EP is the hot shit indeed. i get excited by new artists very infrequently (this is why i do most of my record shopping in used shops to get older stuff!) but he has my ear now, for sure.

"Can I turn around and say !!!EXACTLY!!! Hence me asking you to refer to the actual music when describing why a record is good rather than sweep it all aside and say "oh that doesn't matter, this artist was a genius and had he made the tune with a tin can and a box of tissues it would still have been timeless! It was on Locked On, hence it was brilliant QED!""

but not every Locked On release was timelessly classic, even though the likelihood of one of their records being timelessly classic was pretty high. when a label knows what theyre doing, they can be trusted because there is someone there making good musical decisions. this is why carl craig is so good, he not only has made 20 years of awesome music, but his label has put out tons and tons of awesome material by other artists. this is not luck, carl craig is one of the best musicians of the past 30 years bar none.

"Why is the choice between eternal inspriation and luck/randomness?? Look at the Wideboys (who also had a single on Locked On) - during 2000 they were probably the most dominant producers in terms of club play and the stuff they made then still sounds amazing, really a kind of pinnacle for an aesthetic of ruthlessness that was still catchy. They're precisely the sort of producers who get cold-shouldered by pretty much any genius-focused approach to dance music, and yet, undeniably, their creative contribution to 2-step was as great as any other production team, up there with yer more typically canonised Steve Gurleys and El-Bs. Judging by their subsequent career parth we have to assume that there was a strong mercantile impulse to their 2-step garage period as well, but that doesn't change the brilliance of that music."

hey, i cant tell you what the attitudes of people since 2-step are all about, but the Wideboys were and are one of my top 5 2-step producers. i probably have more records by them than by almost anyone else simply due to their prolific nature. "sambucca" and the first 4 editions of "garage jams" are always getting play when i dig through my 2-step, and their remix work was wonderful as well. why arent they getting the love? could it be because music critics dont know shit and werent paying attention when these records were coming out? i have no idea, really.

"How to explain it? Perhaps it's not a case of "genius" as such. Perhaps it's a case of reasonably talented producers being in the right place at the right time and stumbling on a sound that worked marvellously, then exploiting that for as long as they could. In a scene that valued sonic novelty, that meant constantly pushing that sound further and further, until they exhausted its potential at some point in mid-2001 or so. An 18-month moment in the sun is not quite what hagiographies are made of, but tracing their work chronologically over that period makes for one of my favourite little sonic narratives ever."

the problem obviously arose when they had to move onto making things that had more commercial potential (and by that i mean they would shift more copies than 2-step which essentially hit a brick wall in early 02 as it splintered off...). who knows what kind of great material they could have continued to make if they didnt have that ridiculous outside pressure? this is why i had to give up on the "hardcore continuum" music, i thought the pressure to change sound essentially handcuffed artists into making bad records. look at photek, how does one go from being so fantastic to being so derivative? the man needed to get paid.

"Possibly you're extrapolating from your own aversion to talking about music in and of itself, and elevating this inarticulate position to the level of a universal principle.

-- Tim F"

it's not that it is inarticulate, it is unarticulable. reading the pseudo-prose reviews that some people seem to like for records makes me feel physically ill, and that is probably the best way to try to describe art! i like to try to discuss the intangibles without trying to over dissect the music itself. the over intellectualisation of music is what led to IDM and bad prog rock, im not really into that.

So how explicit are the lyrics on this thing? Strange question I know, but only the "clean" version is available on iTunes plus and I'm really hesitant to get this because of that. Will the "clean" edits really destroy the listening experience? I'd obviously prefer to never buy "clean" versions, but I'm not having any luck finding this thing in shops over here and I'd love to buy it.

An absence of flavour isn't a necessary outcome of some sort of metaphysical relationship to the streets, it's a contingent musical outcome based on the choices a producer makes. I'd have no idea whether Burial is more or less street than other dubstep producers, other 2-step producers. Why should that form some potential barrier to the possibility of his music being good? The above quote implies that there is some sort of customs that the music has to pass through on the way from the record towards your ears where the artist has to prove their credentials before anything you hear in their music can be taken seriously.

Why on earth is every single discussion about dubstep so obsessed by such things? Why must even ILM discussions of dubstep end up mimicking tiresomely the same issues that are obsessed over in Dissensus discussions?

Huh Tim, you missed my point. My fault, I wasn't clear. See I was actually trying to pin you with exactly what you accuse me of: priviledging the real, authentic, indigenous etc. Two things you said stand out. In the quote that you OTM'd above, the poster said Burial is bleaching, whitening, the 'real' sound. And the most pernicious statement was the thing about the rudeboy 'flava/cheese' axis (tho I admit I don't quite understand what cheese and flava represent there, could you explain or direct me to the appropriate reynolds). You say that Burial lacks some trace of old 2-step: some femininity, some functionalism, some roughness. These are all musical, material deficits, true (but it would help me if you explained where you see this lack in Burial's sound in particular); but they are all also obviously code for street. So if Burial IS white/well-educated, it would make sense that he can't get to these things. But if we carry this to the logical conclusion, we end up saying 'well-educated white people shouldn't make grime/dubstep/4x4/speed garage' which is obvi problematic.

And theres another thing: in some of your posts you seem to suggest a thinly-veiled hostility to anything that even opens itself up to appropriation by naive middle class, um, pipecock-style cult of genius (which is: anything that looks like it has pretensions to 'meaning', 'depth', Art, etc.) I'm sure you wouldn't want to say this exactly. Maybe you could explain your opinion on this score?

I need to clear up one thing from above. when Tim says that 'an absence of flavour is a contingent musical outcome based on the choices a producer makes', thats exactly what I'm disputing. The flavour you cite (feminine, rough, rudeboy etc.) is all explicitly coded as street; and you said that this lack of flavour is part of a larger lack of appreciation, for an element which was in the music BEFORE. If Burial hasn't picked up on this element, is it a decision of an autonomous subject, or is it the result of social situation, the question of 'who' 'Burial' is? ANd conversely, are you reading in these lacks precisely because Burial is always coded white, and so you already expect his music to lack all these things? I'm not hostile, I just need you to clarify.

Most interesting thing about flying lotus is that he's related to Alice Coltrane.

So how explicit are the lyrics on this thing? Strange question I know, but only the "clean" version is available on iTunes plus and I'm really hesitant to get this because of that. Will the "clean" edits really destroy the listening experience? I'd obviously prefer to never buy "clean" versions, but I'm not having any luck finding this thing in shops over here and I'd love to buy it.

The lyrics sort of wash over me on this disc. They're important, but more for the mood they help create than their actual contents. What I do pick up is repeated, vague snippets, e.g., "Holding you. . . Loving you . . . Kissing you . . . Tell me I belong" (Archangel) and "I can't take my eyes off you" (Near Dark).

I don't recall any "dirty" lyrics or "bad" words on the disc. If they are there, I wouldn't want to mess with the disc's integrity by getting the "clean" version, but I just don't think it matters in this case. But maybe someone's heard something on the disc I haven't.

Thanks for the info. I just thought it was really weird that this, of all albums, would have such a distinction with only the "clean" version available.

Within a few years, dismayed at their own lack of commercial success they were making precisely the sort of funky house that pollywog despises

...actually i i like funky house. It among other genres makes a nice break from listening to oppressive dubstep all the time

and most of my d'n'b dj/ mates/producers never really got the 2step swing and were not into garage. The ones who have tried dubstep end up making plodding digidubstep over half time beats with cliched ragga samples...

http://www.gurusoftware.com/images/GuruNet/contemplation.jpg

Burial's upcoming single "Trivial Cumulus Clouds"

"And theres another thing: in some of your posts you seem to suggest a thinly-veiled hostility to anything that even opens itself up to appropriation by naive middle class, um, pipecock-style cult of genius (which is: anything that looks like it has pretensions to 'meaning', 'depth', Art, etc.) I'm sure you wouldn't want to say this exactly. Maybe you could explain your opinion on this score?

-- walter benjamin"

i'm not middle class, so that is interesting. aside from that, pretensions of things are meaningless, the amount of "artists" who try that out is huge. the only thing that matters is the final result. and there is nothing naive about that.

PIEPKLOK OTM

OTMOTMOTMOTM.

“Huh Tim, you missed my point. My fault, I wasn't clear. See I was actually trying to pin you with exactly what you accuse me of: priviledging the real, authentic, indigenous etc. Two things you said stand out. In the quote that you OTM'd above, the poster said Burial is bleaching, whitening, the 'real' sound. And the most pernicious statement was the thing about the rudeboy 'flava/cheese' axis (tho I admit I don't quite understand what cheese and flava represent there, could you explain or direct me to the appropriate reynolds). You say that Burial lacks some trace of old 2-step: some femininity, some functionalism, some roughness. These are all musical, material deficits, true (but it would help me if you explained where you see this lack in Burial's sound in particular); but they are all also obviously code for street. So if Burial IS white/well-educated, it would make sense that he can't get to these things. But if we carry this to the logical conclusion, we end up saying 'well-educated white people shouldn't make grime/dubstep/4x4/speed garage' which is obvi problematic.”

I don’t think Titchy referred to Burial being white, or to him changing the “real” sound of 2-step. He said that Burial was “gentrifying” the music by removing “embarrassing” elements. But an anti-gentrification position (if titchy or myself were to take such a position – I don’t) does not automatically equate to pro-authenticity. What I think both of us were referring to here are how certain sounds are received by audiences: xylophone basslines and hype MC’ing and obvious samples from other big hits aren’t necessarily techniques of “realness”, but they are often received as being cheesy – in a manner not substantially dissimilar to the way euro-pop or Ibiza trance are received as being cheesy (and you don’t see Dissensus-style nu-rockism defending the realness of these genres).

I’d admit the cheesiness of 2-step was coded by its status as “urban” or “street” music, in terms of the specific forms this cheesiness took – we tend to associate MCs, for example, with all of these notions. But this shouldn’t necessarily be an obstacle for white middleclass producers. When I say “rudeboy” it could as much refer to Basement Jaxx’s “Jump & Shout” as any 2-step track – certainly there’s an implication that the music draws from influences traditionally considered to black, but white producers deploying “black” signifiers has a history as old as electronic music itself.

Anyway, this gentrification in Burial isn’t a bad thing – it’s his point of difference and is what makes him interesting. I just think it prevents him from being held up as some inheritor to the “hardcore continuum” – based on my understanding of what that term means. So I was disputing the narrative that some people adopt unquestioningly when discussing his music.

Also, I think we should attempt to be specific about Burial’s music vis a vis dubstep generally. Burial does not suffer from a deficit of femininity; conversely, there’s a lot of dubstep that is perfectly “rough” and “functional”. There’s quite a distinction between the estrangement of Burial from “proper” 2-step and that of dubstep.

I’ll see if I can dig up some Reynolds links. He has often previously made the point that some of the “blackest” sounding jungle often came from white, even middle-class producers – and the reverse often holds true as well (e.g. 4 Hero as standard-bearers for jungle’s gentrification).

“And theres another thing: in some of your posts you seem to suggest a thinly-veiled hostility to anything that even opens itself up to appropriation by naive middle class, um, pipecock-style cult of genius (which is: anything that looks like it has pretensions to 'meaning', 'depth', Art, etc.) I'm sure you wouldn't want to say this exactly. Maybe you could explain your opinion on this score?”

I love heaps of music that tends to get swamped in this cult-of-genius approach (e.g. I like a lot of Pipecock’s cultural touchstones – Theo Parrish etc.). I just think that it inevitably suppresses (as in denies the existence of) or rejects (as in deems beneath discussion) the aspects of music or the experience of music that don’t fit its rigid explanations as to how and why music works. This is almost as damaging to the way in which we think and talk about Theo Parrish as it is to the way in which we think and talk about La Bouche. And it’s not damaging in the first instance because it’s wrong, precisely, but because it’s partial and distorted and leads to lazy, clichéd thinking. The meaninglessness of a lot of the prattle surrounding Burial is testament to this. But it doesn’t mean Burial doesn’t make great music at least occasionally.

“I need to clear up one thing from above. when Tim says that 'an absence of flavour is a contingent musical outcome based on the choices a producer makes', thats exactly what I'm disputing. The flavour you cite (feminine, rough, rudeboy etc.) is all explicitly coded as street; and you said that this lack of flavour is part of a larger lack of appreciation, for an element which was in the music BEFORE. If Burial hasn't picked up on this element, is it a decision of an autonomous subject, or is it the result of social situation, the question of 'who' 'Burial' is? ANd conversely, are you reading in these lacks precisely because Burial is always coded white, and so you already expect his music to lack all these things? I'm not hostile, I just need you to clarify.”

I hadn’t realised people were assuming Burial was white. Is he? And the fact that he doesn’t employ what I’m referring to as “rudeboy” sounds could be for a host of reasons. Most likely he does appreciate “proper” 2-step, and has a sense of how and why that music works. All I’m disputing is that his music can legitimately be characterised as an “elegy” for the “hardcore continuum” – it seems a step too far given the actual sound of the music.

By way of analogy: I tend to think that techstep drum & bass (a lot of which I adore, at least the early stuff) purged a lot of these elements from the prior jungle sound(s). What was behind this move? A lot of this music was made by the same producers who’d been making the pre-existing jungle. Was it conscious choice, a shift in audience, people simply tiring of what reminded them of the previous years’ sounds and looking for something new, change in drug habits, change in musical gear… Or perhaps all of these things.

So anyway I'm listening to it and my favorite part is the distorted "This is a Hyperdub promo" voice every two minutes.

"He said that Burial was “gentrifying” the music by removing “embarrassing” elements. "

They may not be the 'embarassing' elements that fit your theory Tim but this album feels crammed with cheesiness, via its over the top emotion, r&b samples etc

Don't you think ukg gentrified itself a while ago, which is part of the reason grime and dubstep emerged? I kind of agree with this article
http://www.riddim.ca/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=104&Itemid=37

...I like the style council

http://bp1.blogger.com/_JySddEdGkVY/Rd-JEqfS3EI/AAAAAAAAAAY/7f1IjZgqMTM/s1600/9lives.jpg

No, that article was actually entire off the mark! But then K-Punk has never been shy about making sweeping pronouncements based on a dearth of evidence! I remember reading it at the time and being utterly puzzled. At first I thought he must have just listened to a bad compilation, but have you seen the tracklisting for that comp?? It totally sounds nothing like the way he describes it! Tellingly, Mark doesn't actually refer to a single bad track in the entire article. I think he just imagines all these bad 2-step trakcs and proceeds to skewer them for their hypothetical flaws. Which is a very convenient argumentative strategy.

The article is partially correct in that there was a massive overload of perfunctory remixes of US r&b tracks floating around in 2001, and this meant that you were perhaps more likely to stumble across boring tracks than previously. But if you look at the best tracks of that year garage was almost as strong as in 1999-2000, I'd say. And while I liked both So Solid Crew/K2 Family/Pay As U Go etc. and Horsepower Productions/El-B at the time, even had the proto-grime and proto-dubstep not been around it still would have been a thrilling year, thanks to stuff by Sticky, Ed Case, Zed Bias, DND, Masterstepz, Bump & Flex. Crucially though, all the dubstep was definitely a more gentrified version of 2-step than any actual normal 2-step was!

The funny thing about the notion of a generational split between soulful garage and dark garage/proto-grime is that for the most part the "soulful garage" movement was imaginary. The standard-bearer for this movement was supposed to be TJ Cases, owing to his gorgeous 2000 track "Dedicated To Love". But actually listen to Cases' 2001 productions "One By One" and "I Like To Cut, I Like To Play" - yes, they still have divas, but they're some of the roughest 2-step tracks you'll hear, the basslines and beats on those tracks are simply slamming (they're like the Eric Morillo of 2-step, maybe).

Pick up any random 2-step compilation from that time and you'll find a remarkable dearth of soulful garage tracks. What you will find are the following:

- lots of good stuff that sounds like 2000 garage except the beats got even screwier
- some good breakbeat garage tracks and then a fair few bad ones
- quite a few jolly MC tracks
- a few uninspiring remixes of US R&B tracks (although these struggled to make it onto the good compilations - whereas even the best DJs seemed to have a weakness for at least one bad breakbeat garage track)
- Mike Dunn's "God Made Me Phunky"

... Which leads me to conclude that the only people who can seriously think that garage in 2001 was gentrified are people who only bought the artist albums from Wookie, MJ Cole and the Artful Dodger.

A bit like trying to summarise jungle circa 1996 based on Logical Progression alone.

One other point to note perhaps is that garage producers did become less inclined to fuck with and cut up the vocals, and instead let them run largely unmolested throughout the track. But while this is partly due to a stronger alignment with R&B/hip hop (away from house and its more tenuous relationship to songfulness), there was another good reason for it: as the tracks became harder and rougher in their production, and the amount of MC'ing escalated massively, having a full female vocal became an important counterweight - by 2001 the pop-diva was assuming a much greater share in maintaining the femininity of the genre, as the music's house roots became less obviously apparent.

I wrote a great deal more about why 2001 was a great year for garage here if you're interested.

"They may not be the 'embarassing' elements that fit your theory Tim but this album feels crammed with cheesiness, via its over the top emotion, r&b samples etc"

Yeah I'm pleased that he's fucking with vocals more. But Burial's over-the-top emotion (which I also like) is closer to corny indie fuxxiness than it is to cheesiness. It's DJ Shadow cheesy rather than Will Smith cheesy.

'Raver' in my head on loop today. Reminds me of Luomo and Akufen stuff more than anything else.

"The funny thing about the notion of a generational split between soulful garage and dark garage/proto-grime is that for the most part the "soulful garage" movement was imaginary.

-- Tim F"

no way, don't you remember the sudden influx of 4 on the floor housey type garage in 01? EZ's record, Tuff Jam's stuff from that time, Qualifide, etc etc. by the end of that year i was buying almost as much 4 on the floor stuff as jams with the 2-steppy beat no matter which end of the split it was on. a bunch of the deejays (iirc it was dream team and some other cats) decided to start playing more soulful, it didnt catch the media hype perhaps but it was a definite part of the movement that led to the path to funky house being an urban UK thing.

"'Raver' in my head on loop today. Reminds me of Luomo and Akufen stuff more than anything else.

-- blueski"

sounds to me almost like pepe braddock's "burning" done in a "cheval" stylee. very pepe.

"no way, don't you remember the sudden influx of 4 on the floor housey type garage in 01? EZ's record, Tuff Jam's stuff from that time, Qualifide, etc etc. by the end of that year i was buying almost as much 4 on the floor stuff as jams with the 2-steppy beat no matter which end of the split it was on. a bunch of the deejays (iirc it was dream team and some other cats) decided to start playing more soulful, it didnt catch the media hype perhaps but it was a definite part of the movement that led to the path to funky house being an urban UK thing."

This movement was pretty small in 2001 though, and didn't really heat up until 2-step started transforming into grime over the course of 2002 (with "Pulse X" etc.). I was trying to obliquely reference it with my mention of Mike Dunn. Even The Dreem Teem were somewhat half-hearted about it, it seemed a bigger deal than it was because of the controversy over So Solid Crew and generational change.

In fact, 4X4 garage wasn't suddenly revived in 2001, this was happening in 2000 as well - remember tunes like Zack Toms' "Bring Me Down", Wideboys' "Westside" and "Stand & Deliver", Dominic B's "Going Round"... As for Tuff Jam, did they ever really change their sound from speed garage in the first place? Matt Lamont didn't even really start making 2-step beats until 2001! And his best 4X4 stuff from 2001/2002 was with El-B!

Not to mention the fact that the 4X4 was revived in the hard 'n' dark end of the scene as well - DJ Narrows for example, and let's not forget Blazing Squad's first hit before they became a boy band (esp. great with Elephant Man on the vocals).

So yeah there was a rise in 4/4 stuff around this time, but I think this development was more about a general nostalgia for speed garage (in both its soulful and ruff forms) than a desire to gentrify 2-step.

I reckon the Cyrus album is better than Untrue. There. Do I win £5?

even when he's arguing w/ 'pipecock' i'd rather read Tim's writing than 90% of ilx

You got that right.

i caught most of this thread after the fireworks, but here are some thoughts.

if burial made a hardcore record, would that turn the continuum into a loop? it reminds me of MT's comment that nothing ever really changes.

what do people think of the skull disco comp?

breaks-based music exhausted itself for me awhile back, but i love the way it sounds in cassy's panorama bar mix i.e., it creates such a nice tension and hypes up the mix without sounding forced.

i don't buy the genius theory because it's too close to fundamentalism and art is way more dirty than that.

"what do people think of the skull disco comp?"

bores me to tears.

"breaks-based music exhausted itself for me awhile back, but i love the way it sounds in cassy's panorama bar mix i.e., it creates such a nice tension and hypes up the mix without sounding forced."

i like music with sampled drums in general, but in terms of a "break" sounding sampled drum beat, im really feeling carl craig's remix of tony allen.

"i don't buy the genius theory because it's too close to fundamentalism and art is way more dirty than that.

-- tricky"

how exactly is it close to fundamentalism? how is music something other than an artist expressing himself?

"how exactly is it close to fundamentalism? how is music something other than an artist expressing himself?"

Haha howzabout a million ways.

xpost, well, that's exactly it. i mean, what else is there to say if all you say is "how is music something other than an artist expressing himself?". i am very sympathetic to that view, but for me it is a jumping off point. it's like conflating effects with causes because at the end music is a very personal experience that everyone experiences a little bit differently. that's one of the reasons why we are here on this board i'd imagine.

i love CC's "straight mix" of tony allen. the subtle changes and brokenness in the breaks from bar to bar is so elegant!

the thing i don't get about pipecock is its not just that he's saying "the best way to understand art is as an expression of an artist" but that "the ONLY way to understand art is as an expression of the artist," like he seems totally unaware that there is an art to reception

"This movement was pretty small in 2001 though, and didn't really heat up until 2-step started transforming into grime over the course of 2002 (with "Pulse X" etc.). I was trying to obliquely reference it with my mention of Mike Dunn. Even The Dreem Teem were somewhat half-hearted about it, it seemed a bigger deal than it was because of the controversy over So Solid Crew and generational change."

i mean, the seeds of grime were already heavily present in 01, as were the seeds of dubstep and the 4 on the floor revolution. "battle of the mc's", "envy", etc were all sort of the almost hiphop tracks over a tough garage beat.

"In fact, 4X4 garage wasn't suddenly revived in 2001, this was happening in 2000 as well - remember tunes like Zack Toms' "Bring Me Down", Wideboys' "Westside" and "Stand & Deliver", Dominic B's "Going Round"... As for Tuff Jam, did they ever really change their sound from speed garage in the first place? Matt Lamont didn't even really start making 2-step beats until 2001! And his best 4X4 stuff from 2001/2002 was with El-B!"

yeah, the El-Tuff stuff (which was what i meant when i said "tuff jam", crack rules) was super ill, but it was definitely part of a larger movement towards that sound. i guess none of these subgenres was really established in 01, but that was when the initial tensions that led to their separation really began.

"Not to mention the fact that the 4X4 was revived in the hard 'n' dark end of the scene as well - DJ Narrows for example, and let's not forget Blazing Squad's first hit before they became a boy band (esp. great with Elephant Man on the vocals)."

sure, narrows and stuff like some of the 4 on the floor harry lime stuff was on the darkside, but i think they were kind of on the very fringes of what would be the usual "2-step scene" in general, even though some of the tunes crossed over ("grouch", "saved soul", etc) into the more mainstream 2-step world.

"So yeah there was a rise in 4/4 stuff around this time, but I think this development was more about a general nostalgia for speed garage (in both its soulful and ruff forms) than a desire to gentrify 2-step.

-- Tim F"

the thing that i think differentiates the 4 on the floor stuff from speed garage is the basslines, the 01 era stuff didnt have the dread bass lines almost at all, it was much more bouncy and house oriented. i dont think it was an effort to "gentrify" 2-step, on the contrary it was more like a "going back to our roots to rediscover our identity" movement.

"the thing i don't get about pipecock is its not just that he's saying "the best way to understand art is as an expression of an artist" but that "the ONLY way to understand art is as an expression of the artist," like he seems totally unaware that there is an art to reception

-- deej"

but the reception is where all the flaws in the communication come in. if you enjoy trying to converse with someone in a foreign language without understanding what theyre saying just because it sounds nice to your ears, i guess that works for you. i prefer to understand the language.

that only works if you conceive of music as a method of communication

or as a language w/ a relatively fixed syntax and semantics and etc etc etc

or that you can't understand english and yet have no clue what someone is saying (cf pipecock)

sorry, can undersand english

hahaha yeah srsly pipecock you are about the last person in the world who should be lecturing anyone on "communication"

"that only works if you conceive of music as a method of communication

-- max"

hahahahahahahahahahahaha.

"or as a language w/ a relatively fixed syntax and semantics and etc etc etc

or that you can't understand english and yet have no clue what someone is saying (cf pipecock)

-- moonship journey to baja"

it is not fixed in any way, thats why it is not easy!

you guys would be funny if you weren't so stupid.

sorry, pretending you're smart/condescending doesnt make it so

"sorry, pretending you're smart/condescending doesnt make it so

-- deej"

maybe i can pretend to be a cool ilxor type who doesnt know shit, then everyone would like me? hahahahahahaha. really, i cant believe some of the things that people say. music is not a form of communication? come on, that is literally the most retarded thing ive ever heard anyone say on any music forum ever, and that is saying a lot. how can you possibly be that retarded? how?

sigh.

"sigh.

-- max"

is trying to use your brain making you tired? you might wanna go ahead and give up, i dont think it will do any good.

"flaws in the reception"

""flaws in the reception"

-- moonship journey to baja"

there are some serious flaws in your reception of basically everything from what i can tell, i guess it shouldnt be surprising that it would extend to music.

You are a bot, right?

"You are a bot, right?

-- Ned Raggett"

yeah a "you guys are fucking stupid" bot.

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http://home13.inet.tele.dk/grambye/contents/modelgif/Peirce-sign.gif

im trying to stay on your level so you can actually understand the pictures i post!

http://www.sakebomb.com/news/images/jeffandshit.jpg

Or you can't actually think of anything more sophisticated than balls and shit because you're a backward farmhand?

i'm pretty sure deej is talking about me

;_:

i'm pretty sure deej is talking about me ilx

We are all ilx.

http://www.allhatnocattle.net/Hands%20Joining%20the%20World1.jpg

* Go to Google Images
* type in : burial untrue review
without quotes
* look at first pic

hahaha

http://yalibnan.com/site/archives/2006/7/img/An%20activist%20shouts%20as%20he%20is%20arrested%20by%20Israeli%20policemen%20during%20a%20demonstration.jpg

The source of that pic is far more serious and completely out of context (just based on the pic name), despite it being used by a blogger to just go "pitchfork be dry lol"

ilm was always going to implode like this

"Or you can't actually think of anything more sophisticated than balls and shit because you're a backward farmhand?

-- jim"

yeah, thats probably it. i need to get out to milking your mom, now.

http://www2.b3ta.com/images/tailpipe.jpg

goddamn it. i swear i only think "tailpipe.jpg? wtf is that" when i'm at work

dude has a look on his face. neither satisfied nor unsatisfied.

xD

"The sound that I’m focused on is more, you know, when you come out of a club and there’s that echo in your head of the music you just heard…I love that music, but I can’t make that club sort of stuff…but I can try and make the afterglow of that music."]

so i put this on again today in honor of the thread and seriously it just sounds like vintage 2step w/ an extra layer of distortion and crackle. and some woodblocks, whoo. i can't believe we had this enormous meltdown over such an ordinary album (pretty, even very pretty, but very pretty is par for the course for most 00-01 2step).

but on second look tis a fake exhaust pipe.

I reckon the Cyrus album is better than Untrue.

yeah i'm feeling it eh, but only in a mashup style with some other shit over the top otherwise it just sounds underdone, like wheres the rest of it ???

it sounds very now, in relation to the "scene" whereas burial is either on some future shit or past shit...

...like if burial had of come out about 2001 it would have been massive if only to counter the light fluffiness of 2 step back then and maybe got a bit more mileage out of the genre

actually nah, on second thought, theres not much future in burials music which is also why no one really want to go down that particular cul de sac...

...if anything he's limited himself to his trademark sound so you pretty much know what to expect in the future from him

of course if he came out and went mainstream it would give him more scope but if i were him i'd just create another entity for anything too radically different and keep burial underground ...

what do people think of the skull disco comp?

...not enuff cowbell !!!

I just heard a couple burial tracks for the first time and I'm really surprised at how much people are going ape for this. It sounds straight outta 1998, when trip hop, drum n bass, and goddamn illbient were all swirling around in the air. I'm not sure why, ten years later, it's suddenly interesting.

I'm not sure why, ten years later, it's suddenly interesting.

...because he's anonymous and kode9 is pushing it

this would actually go really great with some illbient

Hahaha -- Mackro to thread.

what do people think of the skull disco comp?

It's a little same-y over the course of a full disc, but taken in small doses, I think it's fairly astounding. In some ways, it's even creepier and more evil sounding than Untrue. And the standout track -- Blood On My Hands -- is, in many ways, the most daring and edgy work of art I've seen or heard about 09.11 (both the original and the 18 minute Villalobos version).(n.1)

__________________________
(n.1) To be clear, the fact that it's daring or edgy doesn't make it morally defensible. If I'm hearing it right, the song is about a political radical's contemporaneous reaction to the 09.11 attacks. The narrorator doesn't sound shocked or sad or troubled or morally conflicted; the attacks don't make him re-evaluate his radicalism. Instead, his droning lyric -- "When I see the towers fall . . . fall . . . fall . . . fall" -- sounds removed and sinister.

Anyway, maybe that's just what I'm hearing. It's also possible the song is written from a different perspective, one more sympathetic to 09.11's victims. It just doesn't sound like that to my ears, and there is another song on the disc called "Hamas Rules," and so forth. Still, a very powerful piece, which is even more striking to me inasmuch as it's the only art I've seen about the actual 09.11 incident (as opposed to the broader "Global War on Terrorism" or the Iraq War) that isn't very obviously pro-American and patriotic.

Gah. Every time I re-read something I've posted, I cringe at how stupid it sounds. My apologies. Also, FWIW, I'm Jewish and not the least bit sympathetic to the 09.11 terrorists.

seems those no life uber geeks over at dissensus still cant stop talking about me even though i been banned from there for an age...

...hahaha suck balls guys. Don't make me spam your wack board

living/being in NZ and only having music as a therapeutic hobby is about as good as it gets...

...ask Mala, he wants to move here cos us polynesians are just so fucking cool and laid back

so while those dissensus clowns keep talking about it, codifying and gentrifying it , i'll just keep it real and make/do/say whatever the fuck i like just cos i can and don't you fuckers wish you could too...

...as for my obsession with breaks ???... fuck yeah it's all about breakbeats. Ask oris jay or zed bias. I started out as B boy, now can you guess what the B stood for ??? and what if anything is jungle but breakbeat culture. try double timing a 70 bpm halfstep beat and see what that gets ya ???

ill advised racially motivated name ???... fuck yeah, i cant stand poxy elitist pommy wankers and pilled out nu age cracka ass american crackas most of which find dissensus as a haven. Those cunts can only wish they were coloured.

piss poor self promotion ???... fuck yeah haha, if only i wanted to be taken seriously as a muso or artist, but the thing is i got so much going on in my life i just cant dedicate full time to it. If i did i'd show alot of peoples lame noodlings up as, well lame noodlings i suppose

...as for burial. I do like the hyperdub grafikery and a couple of tunes depending how blazed i am and where i am but the boxcutter album is better WAY BETTER

I'd take Enigma's "The Sadeness" over anything by Burial. And my feelings on "The Sadeness" are well documented on ILM.

Every time I re-read something I've posted, I cringe at how stupid it sounds. My apologies. Also, FWIW, I'm Jewish and not the least bit sympathetic to the 09.11 terrorists.

a jewish apologist...am I the only one who finds that funny ???

I try to live by a code of no apologies, no thank yous and no excuses

...you really shouldn't give a toss what or how stupid anything you say on the net cos is there is always something and someone stupider...heh

so what if a bunch of people you will probabaly never meet nor give the time of day to in real life think you're common ???

...who the fuck you trying to impress ???

btw i wonder if there isn't always a certain need people have, for an album like this (ghost cannibalization of older surer musics, at a sort of above the merry-go-round of modernity remove LET'S SAY) at this exact stage of every decade? yknow, this random desultory phase where people dont know what the big optimistic groundswell is and aren't finding themselves getting caught up in anything. it just seems so much like the clamour about pole all over again, from where i'm sitting.

or maybe the question should be not that the need exists, but that the one album always seems to get made? i wonder what the 80s equivalent was, if there was one. perhaps people werent yet po-mo enough by that point.

visage_fade to grey

"so while those dissensus clowns keep talking about it, codifying and gentrifying it , i'll just keep it real and make/do/say whatever the fuck i like just cos i can and don't you fuckers wish you could too...

-- pollywog"

haha. and to think that i thought this place was better than that one.

martin clark in particular needs to step off my jock. i remember him arguing around march 06 about burial's first (as of then not yet released) album being on vinyl:

"Since Burial's drums aren't in time (they're hand built in Soundforge and not sequenced), beatmixing from vinyl is fairly pointless ...!"

"There's gonna be no vinyl release. given the unsequenced drum structure and high cost of vinyl, there's no point really"

"tom

perhaps you'd care to fund the vinyl pressing personally then? ;)"

if only i wasnt a broke student, i should have taken him up on that offer and cleaned house. even the people who are supposed to know what is up with this music don't know shit. suckers.

pussies

^^^^hardman.

also, u say 'my jock' and 'suckers' too much.

Maybe they're in love.

Please consult http://www2.b3ta.com/images/tailpipe.jpg

Which one of you is the car, BTW?

well then, you "fine gentlemen" need to step off "my johnson". better?

"Which one of you is the car, BTW?

-- John Justen"

the one that isn't your dad

http://www.craphound.com/images/hellokittymuffler.jpg

i think that pipecocks parents need to adjust their netnanny settings

bored. done.

"Which one of you is the car, BTW?

-- John Justen"

the one that isn't your dad

-- pipecock, Thursday, November 22, 2007 3:40 AM (2 minutes ago)

I am kind of amused, however, that this implies that you are getting violated by my dad.

could you tell him to please knock that shit the fuck off, then?

u_u

we have a 10-80 out here, a truck on fire. we have a man on the lift. we are unable to find the switch to turn the lift off and we can't stop the dancing chicken. send an electrician. we're standing by.

http://www.cartoonstock.com/lowres/swa0367l.jpg

http://www.epsilonminus.com/darquedungeon/dd_7.gif

I'm sorta half-drunk, so I think I'm best-equipped to say some of the things need saying around here:

(1) ok west coast, what is it with hot girls and breaks? it rips me apart inside. these girls should be at house nights.

(2) i saw burial fucking santa claus

(3) http://wizznutzz.com/images/nocioni_mascots.jpg

At the risk of sounding a bit purple (like nearly every review of his music, I mean why do some people go on a bizarre evening course type creating writing trip when it comes to this guy?), the first Burial album was a real punch in the gut and made me excited about music in general again for the first time in years. I was (and still am) completely sold on the whole future-dub-dread-dynamic, which brings me to wonder why there was so much hate for the Spaceape track, offend some fluffy idm sensibilities did it?.

Listening to it again recently I realised that my favorite tracks are the more d&b inflicted ones. Maybe I'm secretly hankering after him to either do a straight up d&b album or something more spatial and miminal like the Cyrus album (probably my favorite album of the year). I dunno, I'm just freeforming here. On Untrue he's definately running the risk of attempting to stamp his identity on other areas like UKG (which was deployed with much more subtle effect on the first album) whilst wiping out the heavy dread dynamic that made his stuff so interesting in the first place. People should cut him some slack though, he's only about 25, 26 I think and Untrue sounds to me like a teary love letter to one genre, or sub-genre, getting it off his chest and moving on.

That said, I think it's a pretty good album and demonstrates soemone coming into their own quite rapidly ("Shell of Light is especially good). Mind you, "Stairwell" (off the Kode9 Sonar mix) blows most of Untrue out of the water. Maybe that's what the ealier comment about the alledged "High-Tech darkside album" was referring to. Fuck, I hope he makes it.

Lukas so not OTM about #1 but completely OTM on #2 and #3

I'm not all about a breakz revival or anything, but enough house + breaks love hits the right spot(s) mutually.

Lukas! You can HARNESS THA HAUTENESS of that hot breakz girl in ways other than pretending you like DJ Icey, yknow.

ugh fuck breaks girls

i remember at a RAW + mictlan show a 90 lb white girl with dreadlocks, a sublime beanie and a wifebeater yelling "YO SELECTOR, PLEASE BRING IT RUFF RUGGED AND RAW" during a breakdown

wiggiest scene ever

"ugh fuck breaks girls

i remember at a RAW + mictlan show a 90 lb white girl with dreadlocks, a sublime beanie and a wifebeater yelling "YO SELECTOR, PLEASE BRING IT RUFF RUGGED AND RAW" during a breakdown

wiggiest scene ever

-- moonship journey to baja"

sounds painful.

I roffled.

"we MUST have images on this blog"

Not much love in the comments there...

Posted by: mizrubull old dude on November 23, 2007 7:00 PM:
"I know nothing about this gear but i do have a moby cd (play) and burial sounds like an out and out ripoff of Moby. And nowhere near as good as the original either."

I'm addicted to the journey into an alternate world that I never become familiar with, that has a narcotic euphoric effect, each time I go further into the mystery.
I'm addicted to the journey into an alternate world that I never become familiar with, that has a narcotic euphoric effect, each time I go further into the mystery.
I'm addicted to the journey into an alternate world that I never become familiar with, that has a narcotic euphoric effect, each time I go further into the mystery.
I'm addicted to the journey into an alternate world that I never become familiar with, that has a narcotic euphoric effect, each time I go further into the mystery.

Aren't we all.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y245/BlueGauze/9530e482701475488f995f27662af4ee173.jpg

I'm addicted to the journey into an alternate world that I never become familiar with, that has a narcotic euphoric effect, each time I go further into the mystery.

I'm addicted to the journey into an alternate world that I never become familiar with, that has a narcotic euphoric effect, each time I go further into the mystery.

ain't no mystery...

...you're just a retard and don't know it

Breaking news. A picture of Burial has been found.

http://weblog.signonsandiego.com/news/weblogs/music/archives/IMG_1760.JPG

He seems so soulful.

He looks a bit like C/-\lum R0b3rt W$dd3ll

The ultimate revenge.

Actually I could see Burial soundtracking a Uwe Boll movie during the creepy disco sequences.

Is that really Burial?

"It sounds straight outta 1998, when trip hop, drum n bass, and goddamn illbient were all swirling around in the air."

haha. it does. but we all love our retro culture.