Tango in the Night POLL (Fleetwood Mac)

this is hard. i'm definitely not voting for "welcome to the room... sara"

Great idea for a poll...

This is such a strange album: of its time yet so determined NOT to be, thanks to Buckingham. It's not as consistent as Mirage, but Tango contains little El Lay studio-pop residue. Quite top-heavy too: are any of the album tracks as strong as the singles? Nicks' tracks, "Seven Wonders" excepted (mostly cuz of the synth-chime hook) are her worst ever. "Caroline" and the title track aren't anything more than catchphrases and excuses for Lindsay to shred.

Anyway, my vote is for "Little Lies," a fully deserved huge hit that manages to sound contemporary and deeply weird.

It's also an oddity in that, for the first time since Rumours, no one singing/songwriting member had an edge on any of the others, and all the singles (I think, at least) far surpass any that came from Mirage.

(note: I actually like all the Nicks tracks on this album)

"caroline" is amazing tribal-pop, how can you deny those drums! sounds like lindsay had been listening to japan. also, christine's fake eastern chanting is gorgeous.

It's also an oddity in that, for the first time since Rumours, no one singing/songwriting member had an edge on any of the others, and all tihe singles (I think, at least) far surpass any that came from Mirage.

Post-Rumours, I've always thought they were equal!

Duds on Tusk: "Honey Hi" (McVie), "Angel" (Nicks), "I Know I'm Not Wrong" (Buckingham)

Duds on Mirage: "Straight Back" (Nicks), "Wish You Were Here" (McVie), "Empire State" (Buckingham).

I must say, "Welcome to the Room...Sara" (love the ellipsis) is a masterful arrangement saving a dull song. Luurve Christine's harmonies in the last third ("For Sc-a-a-r-l-e-e-e-t-t...") and Fleetwood's drums.

I wasn't talking about equality in duds, Alfred. Equality in peaks!

Buckingham kind of owned Tusk and Mirage, and Tango was the return of everyone having not only stellar singles, but also pretty good deeper cuts too.

oops! I keep forgetting to hit the BBcode button.

Alfred I can't believe you list the excellent "Empire State" rather than "Oh Diane" as Buckingham's dud on Mirage!

As for Tango in the Night, I've been very partial to "Isn't It Midnight" recently. After that I'd probably plump for "Caroline".

Couldn't vote for "Big Love" only because the live acoustic version is so much better.

"Seven Wonders" is Stevie's weakest big single and the album tracks are her weakest album tracks.

For feel, I love "Mystified" best--not the album's strongest song, but what a gorgeous sound. Between that, "Little Lies" and "Everywhere." (I guess on this particular album I like McVie's stuff the best.)

As for Tango in the Night, I've been very partial to "Isn't It Midnight" recently

I used to be, but there's a tension between Buckingham's raunchy valedictory solo and the programmed percussion and chimes that's never quite resolved.

tim mostly otm, but i like 'everywhere' best

Yes "Everywhere" is brilliant. I was very annoyed when someone made a swirly house-pop cover version, only because I felt they'd stolen my idea and not done as good a job with it as I would have done.

I should note that I find it odd when people say this album is more idiosyncratic than Mirage. I guess the production has that whole pristine rainforest feel to it, but Buckingham's songs are so much more straightforward than on Mirage, and he's even got that smooth 80s vocalist vibe going on. Surely the whole point of the album is that it unambiguously goes for the pop jugular?

Can't say I'm too partial to "Family Man", which feels like such a pointless wisp of a song, although the guitar bits are excellent.

"there's a tension between Buckingham's raunchy valedictory solo and the programmed percussion and chimes that's never quite resolved."

Ha ha this sounds like an argument for the song's greatness. But i think I particularly love the new wave sheen to Christine's vocals.

This was my first FM record. Took me more than a decade to get the others (read: classics). I honestly can't remember much from the album even though I did play it on repeat for weeks. Hmm.

Al-FRED. How could you possibly say I know I'm not wrong is a dud? The chorus alone is so elegant, the way it deflects the melody just a bit to the side instead of forcing a hook. And it works! Its the perfect new-wavey Beach Boys pastiche. Explain yourself please! (not too well though, I'd like to continue liking it!)

I suppose I can't, but of many fascinating Buckingham songs it's not my favorite. The introduction, for instance, reminds me too much of my beloved "Not That funny."

Also: when on earth are we getting remastered versions of this and Mirage? Anyone heard any of Tango's b-sides??

But they're sister songs, Not that funny has almost the same music and chorus and don't they both contain the "here comes the night time" bridge?

Yeah, I've never heard Mirage. Would kill to. But i've never even seen it for sale. I'm gonna have to amazon the thing soon.

"Little Lies". Do it for me. Honestly.

the b-side to "7 wonders" is a pretty cool instrumental, "book of miracles" i think it's called. sounds like christine wrote it. it's nice.

"Little Lies" is the best thing Fleetwood Mac did ever do. Thus, my pick is easy even though "Tango In The Night" had lots of strong tracks.

the b-side to "7 wonders" is a pretty cool instrumental, "book of miracles" i think it's called. sounds like christine wrote it. it's nice

Oooh!

At the moment I'm leaning towards Everywhere, it might be McVie's best ever, after Over & Over of course.

Lots of Lindsey being very Lindsey on the production as well.

About this album gets the same HDCD treatment their three late 70s albums got. It's better than all of them.

lolz

This may sound even better.

little lies

LULZ I'd forgotten how lame Lindsey's replacements were. xxp

Ha ha ha that Kids Inc. one is especially great since that's FERGIE.

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

LULZ I'd forgotten how lame Lindsey's replacements were. xxp

Lindsey once said, "At least it took TWO guitarists to replace me, heh heh."

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

C.McVie pwns all.

The only surprise is how well "Welcome to the Room...Sara" did.

Correct winner :)

"Seven Wonders" got NO VOTES?!

Oh shit I forgot to actually vote for "Isn't It Midnight".

Seriously, seven people think "Welcome to the Room... Sara" is the best song on this album? Surely these people have not actually heard it and are just assuming any Stevie song with the name "Sara" in it must be good?

It is awful.

Shame to see "Family Man" getting no love.

just picked this up for £1 + i love it even more than i remembered but wtf at 7 votes for welcome to the room sara!?!!

2. "Seven Wonders" (Stewart, Nicks) – 3:38 0

This is one of the fuckedest things in the history of ILM polls.

otm

wtf at 7 votes for welcome to the room sara!?!!

The seven core members of ilm's Stevie stans, innit.

Yeah but what's weird is that it's the worst of her three songs on there. Voting for it seems terribly perverse.

exactly!! it cant just be abt stevie nicks fans

It's NOT worse than "When Will I See You"!

WASSA MADDA BABY....BABY...BAY-BEE....BABY!

i also picked this up recently and was surprised at how amazing it still sounds. "caroline" in particular deserves more love

i think this could be stevie nicks' worst contributions to any record she's been involved with imo

i wonder how many of the people who voted for "welcome.." are mixing it up with "sara" from tusk

" "caroline" in particular deserves more love"

this is spot on.

My issue with "Welcome To The Room... Sara" is that it sounds like a parody song, like something from that French & Saunders send up of Fleetwood Mac. It actively undermines all of Stevie's signature tricks. "When Will I See You" is merely weak.

Nicks' songs are amazingly strong on Say You Will, but then I've not heard the stuff she's done between the two albums.

Like Bella Donna, Trouble in Shangri-La, etc? If you like Nicks, you'll love the albums, but outside maybe one or two tracks (Nomad, maybe?) nothing really knock-out there.

I know Bella Donna, The Wild Heart and Rock Little, just none after that.

But then I rarely listen to those ones much. What's interesting about Nicks is that she really does work so well as a group player, even though her songwriting style would never suggest it. The half of Say You Will she contributes is possibly as much Nicks as I'd really want in one sitting.

CAROLINE

all the "ooh ah"s in "big love" are still bizarre

Seven Wonders is pretty good, deserved a vote imo.

Yes "Everywhere" is brilliant. I was very annoyed when someone made a swirly house-pop cover version

Tiiiiiiim, who did this?

think i've heard it

basically they looped bits of it so it's longer and added some helpful echoes

theres def a balearic disco edit that jaxon posted on the noize board FM thread iirc.

You've all heard this, I hope.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9ovcZKmMpw

There is no way the Little Lies voters have heard the whole thing.

jeez al i didnt know you thought honey hi was a dud

feel like i dont even know you and i cant trust your opinion anymore

you talkin' to me?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9zbCuD1ulA

???

Duds on Tusk: "Honey Hi" (McVie), "Angel" (Nicks), "I Know I'm Not Wrong" (Buckingham)

Duds on Mirage: "Straight Back" (Nicks), "Wish You Were Here" (McVie), "Empire State" (Buckingham).

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Thursday, July 19, 2007 9:47 PM (2 years ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Oh yeah, I'll still stand by that.

h8 you

HONEY HOOO-NEY HI

No sacred cows stand in the way of McChallops.

stfu and listen to the "Seven Wonders" 12", heathens.

how did seven wonders get 0 votes and mystified get only 1??

The correct question: how did "Welcome to the Room....Sara" get seven votes?

Late to thread but I gotta agree with Tim above about "Oh Diane" being more of a dud than "Empire State" - I get what he's trying to do with it but it's still one of my least favourite Mac songs ever, whereas I really quite like "Empire State" even while realizing it's not top-drawer. But y'know, it's all taste.

Probably a good thing that I never voted on this because I realized that I've only ever heard the singles here. I really should get me a copy of the full album - I think I've given up on Rhino actually bringing out Mirage and Tango in their reissue series, what with the long gap since the first batch.

TITN is their best seller post-Rumours too.

The correct question: how did "Welcome to the Room....Sara" get seven votes?

yeah that song is such a chore

A+ 4Eva: "Caroline", "Everywhere", "Isn't It Midnight"
A: "Seven Wonders", "Big Love", "Tango In The Night", "You & I"
A-: "Little Lies", "Mystified"
B: "Family Man"
...
D-: "When I See You Again"
...
F: "Welcome to the Room... Sara"

"isn't it midnight" is the only one i can't remember how it goes

all the arthur baker club mixes that came with the 12" singles are solid gold

"family man" is the underrated gem on this album. such a simple song packed with so many little details. and lindsay's flamenco guitar solos are immense

the cover art for this album is just so perfect

you know EXACTLY what its going to sound like

just sayin.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIn-pUYMBg4

Just got around to listening to some "Tango" demos, and man, is Stevie's "Joan Of Arc" weird/spooky. Destroyer could /should cover this.

Here's the demo:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4Ocjnf7Tng&feature=watch_response_rev

And here's the "finished" version:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9btTlkvIP9c

Love this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtTh_MGXIZg

"mystified" is the sleeper on this album

I cannot believe nobody voted for Seven Wonders or Isn't It Midnight! The super-urgent guitar outra on the latter is a one-way ticket to Lindsey heaven.

^^^^^^ Absolutely. Under the circumstances everyone who voted for "Welcome to the room... Sara" should be shot and killed. I don't care if they were joke votes.

FRONT LINE BABEEEE

is there a version of that everywhere demo longer than 1:17?

such crazy results, 'welcome to the room... sara' is a pretty bad song almost made good by producer-lindsey's insistence that it be good, but why vote for it when you could have 'seven wonders', an okay song almost made amazing by producer-lindsey's insistence? also, poor 'family man'. i heard it dropped in the middle of a nu-disco set a while back and it was somehow perfect.

"Seven Wonders" is classic Lindsey playing Capn Save a Stevie.

Finally got round to actually checking this out properly. Other than the big hits, I love the title track the best.

family man rules and deserves some epic balearic remix

this does a decent job of it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrLRzxYq4Z8

Great interview. I knew of course about Nicks at Betty Ford and Lindsey chasing her around the house after he announced he was leaving but apparently it was still all rather mad.

Fleetwood says that he and Nicks were doing more cocaine during the making of Tango than when they were recording Rumours — an album on which they seriously considered thanking their drug dealer in the credits. “Actually” he admits, “it was way worse on Tango In The Night. For sure.”

Certainly , I smoked a lot of pot. But I was never a big user of coke,” Buckingham notes. And by the mid-80s, he’d had enough. ” The subculture was pretty much at the point of burning itself out,” he recalled. “The ‘anything goes’ attitude that existed in the 60s had become something entirely different. But still, everyone thought you had to do certain things to play, and I don’t know that I ever thought about it that way.”

ooh

The Ken Caillat book divided the band into a pot side and a coke side, with Buckingham sticking mostly to pot and Nicks and Mick to coke (Christine strikes me as pot; John, of course, was all about alcohol). Stevie had it worst, reportedly, because she had so little to do in the studio and was basically left alone to take all the drugs, coke, pot, whatever.

I don't think there's any other band in history that makes me simultaneously think "man, I would have loved to be in this band" and "man, I'm glad I was never in this band" more than Fleetwood Mac.

(would have voted for 'Everywhere', btw.)

I'm ecstatic that my predictions about this album displacing Tusk as influence have come true, with Classixx doing "Seven Wonders" 12-inch song right

I feel the urge to listen to Tango In The Night right now. I'm going to give into that urge, dammit.

Christine kills on this album

The fact that Everywhere didn't win this in an almost embarassing landslide makes me think I should probably listen to the rest of the album. Will do in a moment.

i would def put this on before Tusk in 2014

I'm ecstatic that my predictions about this album displacing Tusk as influence have come true, with Classixx doing "Seven Wonders" 12-inch song right

― Bryan Fairy (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, February 3, 2014 9:27 PM (31 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Sorta feel like this has been true for some time now, especially on the balearic-meets-So end of indie: A Mountain of One stealing the groove of "Caroline", Yeasayer and VW's second albums etc.

Actually a comp of contemporary stuff that takes its cues from Tango would be fun to put together.

Fine source material to be found here: Examples of Fleetwood Mac worship in bands from 2000-present.

God, 'Caroline' is awful...

Destroyer has covered Everywhere, Vampire Weekend has covered Everywhere, apparantly Haim has acknowledged the influence of Everywhere on their music. Everywhere is awesome. As is the rest of the album, it seems, so far.

Those lung-busting long notes on the title track, though! Sublime.

def A Mountain of One, Haim, and Dawn Richard, don't hear it in Contra so much, although I'd love to read where you do!

Vampire Weekend has LITERALLY covered Everywhere.

Fleetwood's drumming on the title track is fabulous.

I'm pretty sure "Caroline" and "Family Man" are Buck solo tracks, i.e. no other band members on them.

God, 'Caroline' is awful...

― Toni Braxton-Hicks (Turrican), Monday, February 3, 2014 4:04 PM (2 minutes ago)

WHAT

Man, does Nicks' voice sound fucked on 'When I See You Again'. I suppose it adds a cracked vulnerability to the track, but it sounds croaky as all hell.

WHASSA MATTA BABEE

Hahahaha... I'd forgotten how much the groove on 'You and I' reminded me of 'Agadoo'.

In the interview I linked Nicks insists the idea of letting Buck take over the song was intentional; I dunno. To me it sounds like she had two minutes of material and he had to flesh it out on his own.

7 votes for "welcome to the room sara"? that's like the one song on this one i cant stand!

oooh
missionary

In the interview I linked Nicks insists the idea of letting Buck take over the song was intentional; I dunno. To me it sounds like she had two minutes of material and he had to flesh it out on his own.

― Bryan Fairy (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, February 3, 2014 10:28 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Yeah, that's what I thought from listening to it again. It sounded as if she'd recorded the vocal up to a point and Lindsey was like "well, Stevie's not around and we have to finish this track, so..."

Thing is, I actually really don't mind the song. I just think the vocal isn't up to snuff and could have been so much better... but it's kinda obvious why it is the way it is.

I might be wrong but the last bit of anarchy in "Isn't It Midnight" sounds like an excellent attempt to lengthen the song (and he gets cowriting credit).

So yeah, all the singles on this are brilliant, basically. The title track being my 'deep cut' choice, and at least one song ('When I See You Again') that really could have been much more.

Duds for me: 'Caroline' (not much of a song), 'You and I, Part II' (sounds like a corny office Christmas party tune)

Don't know why I haven't listened to this album for so long, but feeling at least glad I listened to it again tonight.

Nowhere near my favorite FM album, in fact, probably my least favorite of the 1975-87 run. Christine seems to have brought the most quality to the record, and I think LB & SN suffered fatigue from saving their best material for their solo records.

"4.4 Who is "Emmiline," in "Seven Wonders?" (Stevie Nicks)

This song was written by Sandy Stewart. Sandy's demo had the
lyrics "you held the line," but Stevie heard it as "Emmiline."
As to who or where Emmiline is, Stevie has been quoted as saying
that she made it up.

for which she got "additional lyrics by" credit!

xp Stevie apparently turns misheard things into song lyrics all the time. Edge of Seventeen is from a conversation with Tom Petty's wife who, with a very thick southern drawl, had actually said "age of seventeen".

xp Hot Chip have also covered Everywhere. And Classixx do great work with Seven Wonders. Balearic innit?

"Everywhere" is far and away my favorite on this, though Buckingham's solo live version of "Big Love" is great too. However, the album isn't that great. Mirage a lot more consistent.

^^^ agree

kicking myself for not picking up a nice-looking LP of this one last week (came back to the store a couple days later but it was gone, alas). Haim alone is gonna cement it as the 2010s' essential Mac album.

I in 2014 or most other years would out in Tusk before Mirage or Tango, but Tango and Mirage are both awesome and the only reason I might not reach for either is that they are so fussy and trebly it hurts. Which on other days is a pair of good things! Love Buckingham's stuff.

At least a third of "Say You Will" is the Bucky solo show, too. I love how the band just can't do anything without him at this point, and he has to reluctantly sacrifice solo tracks to the Mac gods.

Yeah, a lot of stuff (well some stuff) that was on the Gift of Screws bootleg wound up on Say You Will. I really wish "Someone's Gotta Change Your Mind" had...not that the solo LB version is weak in any way, but I might've liked to have heard it fleshed out even a little more by Fleetwood Mac.

I love Say You Will. It's got some of Nicks' very best performances and songs.

In the interview I linked Nicks insists the idea of letting Buck take over the song was intentional

ooh, which song alfred - I'm confused

"When I See You Again"

Ah, gotcha - thanks

Am I missing a bit? I don't think that song's mentioned in the piece you linked.

Then Play Long on the mysterious case of the disintegrating band: http://nobilliards.blogspot.co.uk/2014/11/fleetwood-mac-tango-in-night.html

That's really great!

ooh

― föllakzoidberg (electricsound)

missionary

This has, weirdly, developed into my favourite Fleetwood Mac record. Even 'Caroline' and 'You and I, Part II' have grown on me.

9. "Welcome to the Room...Sara" (Nicks) – 3:37 7

How did seven wonders get no votes

Was wondering that myself, the two mcvie masterpieces are impossible to deny, though

Family Man sorta robbed here

"Isn't it Midnight" is an astonishingly brilliant song. Can't believe it got no love here.

Yeah, the votes for Welcome To The Room are baffling. Probably Stevies worst song on a Fleetwood Mac album.
Undeniable as Christine's two mega hits are Ive probably listened to Caroline or the title track most by choice. Tango (the song) is just so fantastically overblown with those long held chorus notes and the I'm So Afraid pt 2 outro solo.

"Welcome to the Room...SARA!" reminds me of this all-time thread: A thread for Steve n.'s list of songs that his boss sings

FRONTLINE BAYBY

All the songs that got 0 votes are incredible, IMO.

I remember listening to Tango In The Night (the song) as an eleven year old and wondering if that was what heavy metal sounded like

Also the version of I'm So Afraid on the sublime 1980 live LP

*etta james voice* at last

http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/fleetwood-mac-unearth-rare-tracks-for-tango-in-the-night-reissue-w462942

yessssss

TAAAAANNNNGOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!

hoping the remastering here is as revelatory as mirage's

Kind of a dick move to make the 12-Inches exclusive to the big box.

Still, YAY!

At least I'LL have remastered versions of "Down Endless Streets" and Y&I Pt. 1.

There seems to be a combined version of both parts of 'You & I', which I'm eager to hear.

http://pitchfork.com/news/71658-fleetwood-mac-share-unreleased-early-version-of-seven-wonders-listen/?mbid=homepage-more-latest-and-video

hey Brad Nelson, nice review of the Tango re-ish.

http://pitchfork.com/reviews/albums/22976-tango-in-the-night-deluxe-edition/

"Big Love" FTW. What a weird song. I've heard five interviews with Lindsey where he can't even describe the damn thing. The Pitchfork description of it as austere and detached gets closer. This is a man way removed from real life and emotions trying to reconnect from his mansion. Usually that kind of thing probably results in total crud but here it's fascinating.

I don't know if this has been linked elsewhere but I happened to watch it last night and it's amazing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBSWt0b4K8E

OOOH
AH

That Pitchfork review was excellent

yeah great stuff, Brad. beautiful writing

also ty for this great trivia

She howls her way through “Seven Wonders,” a song written mostly by Sandy Stewart. (Nicks receives credit because she misheard “All the way down you held the line” as “All the way down to Emmiline”; for Nicks—and I don’t disagree—sometimes accident and authorship are indistinguishable.)

Stevie mishears a lot of things. "Edge of Seventeen" exists because she misheard Tom Petty's wife say "age of seventeen."

lmao love u stevie

also thanks y'all

I love the idea that Nicks deserved a writing credit.

Stevie mishears a lot of things. "Edge of Seventeen" exists because she misheard Tom Petty's wife say "age of seventeen."

― Ⓓⓡ. (Johnny Fever),

cocaine in her ears iirc

cool stuff in the deluxe edition that got cut from the review

- the reconstituted "you and i" is awesome and had it ended tango it'd probably be my favorite fleetwood mac record even with the disintegrating stevie songs
- i've had the extended remixes for years but i still get really surprised when i hear a long lost stevie backing vocal woven into them, especially in "big love" and "family man" which i always thought of as (and which, afaik, are) solitary lindsey affairs

or the TELL ME LIES. WHOA. SWEET LITTLE LIES. OH NO NO YOU CAN'T DISGUISE that suddenly appears as a mixing decision in the "Little Lies" 12-inch.

Reissue's not out until the end of the month, right? That's a pretty early review.

I love the idea that Nicks deserved a writing credit.

― the Rain Man of nationalism. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, March 13, 2017 3:26 PM (three hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

It's like something straight from the Mike Love school of earning writing credits.

/Then Play Long/ on the mysterious case of the disintegrating band: http://nobilliards.blogspot.co.uk/2014/11/fleetwood-mac-tango-in-night.html🔗

That said, I don't think stuff that sounds like Nicks on "Little Lies" is Buckingham.

The three are on "Little Lies" – that's the beauty of the chorus, where each gets a line (and the beauty of the 12" is exposing listeners to the rest of Nicks' vocal).

x-post:

I'd probably go as far as saying that it ranks as one of Nicks' worst ever vocal performances on record.

the christine/stevie/lindsey tradeoff in the chorus is the most they ever feel like a band on the record and it's also just really sharp arranging, it's the part of the song that's like burned into my memory forever xp

yep!

It's the Mac song I remember most as a kid, thanks to that nasal Nicks hook in the chorus.

i heard it on the radio for years as a kid without ever identifying it as a fleetwood mac song. which persisted even after i became a fan; they didn't perform it the dance, which was my gateway

er, on the dance*

I used to wake up to the clock/radio every morning, and one of my formative memories is waking up to "Little Lies" one day. It was the sleepy-eyed equivalent of hearing something amazing and needing to pull the car over. 1987, so must have been middle school. Not sure when I even realized pre-'80s Fleetwood Mac existed, to be honest. What's weird is that I didn't buy the record until much, much later.

Posted before I got here...Like all the singles, would have voted for "Mystified."

I had completely forgotten about "Big Love"

For me, I heard stuff like 'Albatross' and 'Oh Well' first and I pretty much thought of Fleetwood Mac as being something to be put in the same bracket as Cream or something. British blues rock. But then later I'd see videos for Fleetwood Mac songs from different eras on VH-1 and I'd think "huh, wut?" ... I'd see 'Albatross' one day, 'Big Love' the next, then something like 'Rhiannon' and it'd be a bit confusing. It wasn't until I saw the Rock Family Trees episode on Fleetwood Mac circa 1994-1995 or thereabouts that I became aware of how it all fit together, then the Classic Albums episode on Rumours. That was basically my gateway... then suddenly it was like: "huh, so that's where the intro music from the Formula One comes from..."

In fact, before watching that Rock Family Trees, I'd assumed that the line-up that did 'Big Love' was a slightly different line-up to the one that did 'Rhiannon', because Lindsey Buckingham looked so different in the 'Big Love' video.

In two weeks it'll be the 30th anniversary of "Big Love" debuting on the Hot 100: https://weeklytop40.wordpress.com/1987-all-charts/

that Rock Family Tree doc is great for anyone who wants a nosey

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYaE5qFpGQM

"Mystified" is kinda killing me right now.

'Isn't It Midnight' is my jam on this these days.

TA-AN-GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Excellent review Brad

Edge of Seventeen anecdote is blowing my mind

It's hilarious that ten years later not a single poster has admitted to voting for "Welcome to the Room................Sara."

I will say this about it: as dire as the song is, it features Stevie's best performance on the record by a fair distance. The writing bears her trademark phrasing – and her singing is far more invested (and subsequently less manipulated by Lindsay). Which makes a certain amount of sense given that it's about the most relevant thing in her life at the time: drugs, rehab and isolation.

It's her only complete performance. She didn't write "Seven Wonders" and didn't finish "When I See You Again." She's there and not-there on this album in a way that astonishes me.

For me, it's never really mattered that Nicks contributed relatively little to this record, since McVie's and Buckingham's contributions are so potent.

(then again, Nicks always was my least favourite of the three songwriters)

Mine as well, tho Stevie's best moments—"Sara," "Gypsy," "Dreams," "Storms"—are undoubtedly really good, even if I sometimes question how much of what I like about them is wedded their arrangements and production.

I disagree. Her songs are often the weakest but no way in hell would I want a Fleetwood Mac without her. She's peculiar: one of the few singer-songwriters who is both the most conventional, kitschiest member (Eagles fetish, New Age crap) and the weirdest vision.

otoh Buckingham is often a better arranger and producer and singer than songwriter; often his songs are about nothing and aren't anything except their arrangements. He's at best coaxing and shaping great songs out of McVie and Nicks.

*and HAS the weirdest vision

i mean i disagree too but that's bc her mac-oriented songs are all knockouts until mirage, which has "gypsy" anyway

I agree that Buckingham works wonders on McVie's and Nicks' material, it's partly the reason why McVie's tracks sound so utterly magnificent on Tango, and partly the reason why Nicks was able to get away with phoning it in.

I can't wait to hear what the Buckingham-McVie record sounds like, although I still see no reason why it shouldn't be put out as a Fleetwood Mac record.

stevie's songs can be really digressive but it's a good counterpoint to the precision of buckingham and mcvie, she gets adventurous in a way they do not

With maybe one exception, her songs on Say You Will are her best on a Mac record since Tusk.

I can't wait to hear what the Buckingham-McVie record sounds like, although I still see no reason why it shouldn't be put out as a Fleetwood Mac record.

― Coolio Iglesias (Turrican), Tuesday, March 14, 2017

I bet Nicks and her lawyers rewrote her contract so that Fleetwood Mac isn't "Fleetwood Mac" without her. She's the star.

With maybe one exception, her songs on Say You Will are her best on a Mac record since Tusk.

― the Rain Man of nationalism. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, March 14, 2017 5:38 PM (two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

agreed. (what's the exception? "illume" is p dull imo)

Yep. Classic Nicks example of wandering in search of a melody.

otoh "Running Through the Garden"! "Goodbye Baby"! The title track! "Thrown Down"!

Mine as well, tho Stevie's best moments—"Sara," "Gypsy," "Dreams," "Storms"—are undoubtedly really good, even if I sometimes question how much of what I like about them is wedded their arrangements and production.

― Naive Teen Idol, Wednesday, March 15, 2017 12:26 AM (eleven minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Yeah, the best of Stevie's stuff really is genuinely great - 'Sara' for me being the pinnacle of her songwriting for Fleetwood Mac, and I really love 'Sisters of the Moon' and 'Gold Dust Woman' ... I'd still rank her as my third favourite songwriter in this incarnation of Fleetwood Mac, vastly preferring McVie's well crafted pop and Buckingham's stuff like 'That's All For Everyone', 'Go Your Own Way', 'What Makes You Think You're The One', his tracks on Tango...

On the Enchanted box set she includes a couple of demos of her best '90s songs ("Sweet Girl," "Twisted"), on which she and another guitarist (Jesse Vanenzuela on one!) play all the instruments and guess what -- the chord changes and melodies are all hers and survived intact. It's possible she was a better recordmaker by the '90s, but I'm reluctant to give Buck the lion's share of the credit for making her listenable; there's a faint whiff of misogyny.

stevie's songs can be really digressive but it's a good counterpoint to the precision of buckingham and mcvie, she gets adventurous in a way they do not

― the raindrops and drop tops of lived, earned experience (BradNelson), Wednesday, March 15, 2017 12:38 AM (eight minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Adventurous like on the stock '70s California soft rock of 'Angel' or adventurous like on the stock '70s California soft rock of 'I Don't Wanna Know' ... or adventurous like the meandering, take-your-time-getting-somewhere '70s California soft rock of 'Storms' or 'Beautiful Child'? The latter two which neither have the pop hooks of McVie's material or are as interesting as Buckingham's material?

"I Don't Wanna Know" is as precise as any McVie!

agreed with alfred on the faint whiff of misogyny

"Storms" doesn't sound like Nicolette Larson, Carly Simon, Kenny Loggins, or however you define California soft rock.

and I haven't even mentioned the half dozen great solo songs on which Buckingham is nowhere near

we could also talk about "silver springs" which has like two choruses and sounds enormous in a way that basically no other rumours track does

I think Stevie is just one of those songwriters who does her best work bouncing off someone else. There's nothing wrong with that. She's not a typical singer-songwriter, more like Madonna.

"beautiful child" wanders and builds itself up block by block as much as "sara" and every time she sings "i am not a child anymore" it sounds like years have passed

^^^ yes. And her timbre changes!

I can't believe we're re-litigating Nicks' contributions. I got no problem with someone ranking her last among the three, but to call her flaws worse than McVie's homilies or Buckingham's formalist vacuity misses the point of a band complementing its members' strengths.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKIC_Kza4Ek

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPEhIoKeTg0

0s, but I'm reluctant to give Buck the lion's share of the credit for making her listenable; there's a faint whiff of misogyny.

― the Rain Man of nationalism. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, March 15, 2017 12:49 AM (nine minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I'm not reluctant in the least - it's a well known fact that Buckingham did a great deal of arranging and production on the others songs - just check the album credits, or even accounts from the band members themselves. A chord progression and a melody is one thing, but a great arrangement and production can give life to something that can be unremarkable at its core.

Sure, but that's no more the case with McVie or Buckingham's songs. She's not a lesser songwriter b/c her songs needed the glittering arrangements as much as her colleague did.

alfred relentless otm

relentlessly*

pretend i linked to another fleetwood mac thread where ppl marveled over her piano demo for "gypsy". her songs are not just arrangements

(i make the argument that "seven wonders" is but it's not her song!)

No, she's a lesser songwriter, at least in my opinion, because neither do I think she's as great at the pop hooks at McVie is, but nor do I find her material as interesting as Buckingham's. Like I've said, the best of her material is truly great, but when it comes down to it the majority of my Fleetwood Mac highlights come from the others.

(and I'm about as interested in Nicks' solo stuff about as much as a cow is interested in becoming a burger)

you're crazy, belladonna is almost perfect

Diehard Mac fans have seen the clip from the SYW making-of documentary in which Buckingham at his most passive aggressive and smug explains why it's bad that she changes verb tenses in a song. Nicks, annoyed, replies, "Would you tell Bob Dylan his verb tenses are wrong?"

My larger point is that Nicks, like Dylan, is not an instrumentalist: she uses a piano or guitar as tools instead of weapons that need mastering. If you like her less than McVie or Buckingham as personage and songwriter, I get it and I won't argue...but she's not a lesser songwriter b/c she can't play piano as well as McVie or guitar as well as Buck.

idk i'm finding turrican's argument that nicks is a lesser songwriter just bc she is neither christine mcvie or lindsey buckingham super convincing

(and I'm about as interested in Nicks' solo stuff about as much as a cow is interested in becoming a burger)

― Coolio Iglesias (Turrican),

I'm not sure this is the appropriate metaphor to use for a woman whom male critics have called, for example, a mooncalf.

she can also write circles around the two of them lyrically

Has anyone heard the whole of McVie's 1984 solo album? "Got a Hold on Me" is certainly great. Bucky plays guitar on that one, but who is Todd Sharp, the other guitarist/writer? This sounds like Tom Petty, or maybe Bryan Adams:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rb5mjCHNKLs

The album's a tuneful bore. I do love a track called "The Smile I Live For."

I remember a time on ILX when McVie got the flak as the Dull One.

idk, also, what a great melodic detour the bridge of "gypsy" is

There's nothing wrong with not being a technically great instrumentalist, plenty of great songs have been written by people that are not particularly great instrumentalists. But that's not what we're talking about - we're talking about songwriting, and I find Nicks' songs don't hit my pleasure centre in the way the others songs do, for reasons I've already stated.

tbh the Mac could've prevented an ILM meltdown by crediting every member like they smartly did on "The Chain."

"gypsy" even has that great mini-hook, "lightning strikes / maybe once, maybe twice"

I'm not sure this is the appropriate metaphor to use for a woman whom male critics have called, for example, a mooncalf.

― the Rain Man of nationalism. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, March 15, 2017 1:24 AM (six minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I'm perfectly sure you're reading something into it which isn't even there. A bit like Tipper Gore reading Twisted Sister lyrics.

you're crazy, belladonna is almost perfect

― a but (brimstead), Tuesday, March 14, 2017 6:20 PM (sixteen minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

A bit like Tipper Gore reading Twisted Sister lyrics.

Or the lyrics to "Sit on My Face, Stevie Nicks" for that matter.

Man am I sorry I started this...

First off, Christine's songs are often every bit as transformed by or reliant on Lindsey's production and arrangements as Stevie's. For instance, "Hold Me" has a lovely verse but almost no chorus whatsoever in its demo form. In the final version, it has a layered vocal part that I didn't even realize was saying "hold me" until a number of years ago (I grew up hearing it as "I wanna ... I wanna ... I wanna ... Fee-eel"). Does that make her less of a songwriter? Not really. It makes him an amazing arranger tho.

Stevie, as Alfred points out, is more of a weirdo – which is a good thing and bad. The good is, candidly, that it makes her more distinctive – she's *not* Nicolette Larson. And really, how many other famous singer songwriters from that era were true oddballs? And how many were women? There's something brave there that I admire.

The thing is, I don't really like it that much. In the main, I find her whole aesthetic—the witch schtick, the dancing, the croaky voice and intense self-involvement—to be off putting. And the problem is, it invades almost everything she does. On her best songs, I don't mind it – but I usually have to overlook it. Only in the case of "Gypsy" and maybe a handful of others do I think her essential Stevie-ness actually adds to the song.

This is all most irrelevant to Tango as she pretty much phoned in her songs, performances and persona. But whether it's the guitar whining against McVie's rumbling bass in "Dreams" or the guitar and Rhodes pirouetting behind the vocal in "Storms," the main reason I find what the band does with her songs essential to their success is that they keep me from mainlining Stevie, which I'm not sure I could otherwise handle. For very long anyway.

I conceive of Buckingham-Nicks era FM as a tightly clustered venn diagram of hooks / arrangement / aura, which then maps onto the special skill of each of the 3 lead performers (though, crucially, Nicks' songs still have hooks, McVie's songs still project an aura, etc.)

Obviously, Nicks' work projects the strongest aura of the 3: songs like "Sara" and "Beautiful Child" and "Silver Spring" and "Gypsy" project a sense of autobiographical depth that may well go beyond what was intended or is really there; at their best these songs feel like they mean more than other songs, every line pregnant with resonance (both lyrically and in their performance) (this is one reason why Nicks is in some ways at least as good a point of comparison for Tori Amos as Kate Bush - Amos inherited Nicks' capacity for meaningful/resonant opacity).

Turrican's critique of Nicks relies on being unable, or refusing, to see that quality (this is not a criticism of Turrican really - there's a lot of qualities other people see in music that I won't or can't), or to see it as valuable. I think this undersells Nicks, but I also think it undersells Buckingham and McVie, who at their best also reach towards that auratic quality, just as McVie and Nicks benefit from Buckingham's arrangement smarts and Nicks and Buckingham frequently rival McVie for pop cut-through. The band in this era had a mutually reinforcing three-legged stool structure; reducing it to two legs makes the whole thing fall down in my opinion.

Yep. Classic Nicks example of wandering in search of a melody.

otoh "Running Through the Garden"! "Goodbye Baby"! The title track! "Thrown Down"!

― the Rain Man of nationalism. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, March 15, 2017 12:45 AM (six hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I don't mind "Illume" and think "Silver Girl" is the Nicks dud on this album. But "Destiny Rules" and "Everybody Finds Out" and "Smile At You" are awesome as well.

I guess I love almost everything on that album.

that's a great post tim, v otm

a guy once convinced me Lindsey deserved more or less all credit for Stevie's songs, and so I was really shocked when I heard those demos which make it clear she's a fantastic songwriter

she def has the best solo material

Tim F OTM

Obviously, it's a great thing that the band had multiple songwriters at their disposal and I feel they worked on each others material really well - as a great band should do anyway - and I think that people are overlooking the fact that I said earlier that Nicks provided some great material. She's still my least favourite of the songwriters, though, and for all Nicks' highlights I'll bet you I don't miss her presence on the forthcoming Buckingham-McVie record, whereas I sure as hell missed McVie on Say You Will, which would have made for a great Buckingham solo record.

I guess now I know who on here is likely to overreact if one dares to state that Nicks is their least favourite element of Fleetwood Mac.

what courage!

You're overlooking my writing that I don't care if you like her least; I disagreed with the suggestion that she needed more help than McVie or Buckingham.

Buckingham isn't capable of great solo albums. None of them are. He's released several good albums with several fine tracks.

xpost: As others have pointed out, thinking Nicks is third best is fine - pretty common in fact - but your justifications for that sit uncomfortably with me because they (perhaps inadvertently) appear to reduce the band's qualities to a two dimensional axis of pop smarts and arrangement invention, which I think as a schematic will fail to properly capture the magic of even the non-Nicks songs of that era.

I didn't mean my sarcasm, Turrican. Think of it as friendly ribbing.

It's also common for listeners to recoil, as Naive Teen Idol remarked, from Nicks' dancing, voice, and witchiness but not so common to show impatience with Buckingham or McVie: producer geniuses and workaday musician, respectively, are more traditional signs of artistic integrity than the woman who risks looking like a fool on stage every night.

*musicians

tim otm

there's a union of performance and songwriting in stevie's songs which can make her more unfinished work (e.g. the songs on tango) feel like improvisations, but this is what enhances her great songs; there's this grand narrative drift to them. they can work like paragraphs or prose-poems, where as mcvie's and buckingham's songs tend to operate within more formal restrictions (there are of course exceptions, as each songwriter's approach crept into the others'). it's not a "better" or "worse" theory of songwriting; it enriches the others as a counterpoint while also being its own captivating swirl. this is why in isolation, on their solo records, they can and often do feel imbalanced. (lol i'm wondering if i'm just repeating tim's point)

"silver girl" was the other nicks song i thought didn't really work on say you will but everything else is really wonderful. there's an imbalance to that record too but it's one i find interesting—another buckingham solo record reengineered as a fleetwood mac record, but stevie was also on a kind of a roll imo between her tracks on that record and the good songs on trouble in shangri-la, and on stuff like "thrown down" they access the aura of the trio even in mcvie's absence

if you're repeating my point you're certainly expressing it better.

And I think that's right about Say You Will - against the odds the album frequently implies McVie's presence even though she's not there.

It will be very interesting (and of course welcome, fantastic, etc.) if the Buckingham-McVie record does the same vis a vis Nicks.

btw "nicks wrote some good songs but i'd rather be hamburger meat than listen to her solo work" is the purest driven nonsense

mooncalf meat

I'd say that not checking out Nicks' solo material or being remotely interested in hearing it based on the fact that she's the element of Fleetwood Mac I'm least interested in makes absolute sense.

Guys, not sure why you are circling the wagons here. It's no crime to be put off by Stevie. It doesn't mean you're a misogynist. It doesn't mean that she doesn't add something essential to the Fleetwood Mac venn diagram. And it doesn't mean her lyrics aren't more personally involving than Lindsey or Christine's. The elaborate cultural critiques of how people listen to music and how they "refuse" to hear what makes her great seem wholly unnecessary.

Stevie isn't for everyone. For many, her bleat needs sweetening. For my part, I like her best in small doses. And while I think Say You Will to be her most consistent set of songs, I find that I miss McVie more on that record than I do Stevie on Tango In the Night.

as alfred and tim already said i don't take issue with considering nicks the least of the three fleetwood mac songwriters but i take issue with the methods by which ppl itt have arrived at that conclusion, e.g. describing nicks' songs reductively as "stock '70s california soft rock," a description that mcvie's and buckingham's songs don't necessarily escape and which is at least partially a consequence of buckingham's production

and Nicks' best solo songs ("Stand Back," "I Can't Wait," "Edge of Seventeen," "Rooms on Fire," a couple others) don't sound like California soft rock either.

as alfred and tim already said i don't take issue with considering nicks the least of the three fleetwood mac songwriters but i take issue with the methods by which ppl itt have arrived at that conclusion, e.g. describing nicks' songs reductively as "stock '70s california soft rock"

No, not all of her songs, just those songs that I applied the description to, which should have been blatantly obvious simply by reading the post.

Some serious over-reacting by the Stevie Nicks fanclub itt.

I think we can all agree that FM minus Bucky is pretty bad, and that since his addition in 1975 or whenever he has been pretty essential to its existence and operation.

They all are. Every one. Including the rhythm section, which we haven't mentioned.

Yes, what I meant is that on at least two, possibly three occasions, the band would not have released an album at all without Buckingham's intense participation.

That is, Tusk, Tango and Say You Will you're all bolstered by ready to go Buckingham solo tracks. The rhythm section absolutely makes everybody better, which is why they show up on a couple of those solo tracks, including cuts like Trouble.

Sorry for the messy voice to text, I hope any that makes any sense.

I take a crack at it. Thanks, thread!

Whenever I sing the chorus of 'Little Lies', I always pinch my nose to do Stevie's bit.

i got the reissue not that long ago so i've been listening to it a lot. it's funny to read the diverse reactions to welcome to the room....sara over the years. i didn't know it at all but it grabbed me right away--it's awkward and weird and tossed off but it has *something,* maybe in the big open chorus vocal and the way the backing vox come in, that i really like.

other big takeaway was john mcvie's playing on "little lies," a song i knew well but had never really dug into. i might think it's his best work in classic mac, which is saying something. he's the driving force in that song.

it's a perfect Christine McVie song too

I think "Everywhere" is more perfect, but "Little Lies" is more ... mysterious?

Sad seven wonders got no votes but this is a hard poll. Probably everywhere

T-ANN-GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Alfred, do you still feel Honey, Hi is a dud??

Yes -- an innocuous one.

Alternative Tango coming for RSD

Stevie's interjections in the "Little Lies" extended remix are A+

This seems as a good as a place as any to air my suspicions (maybe this is common knowledge?) that the Lindsey-sung tracks on Tango (and Tusk) are pretty much all Lindsey, playing or programming everything, with a few exceptions and cameos.

I assumed so from the beginning, "Caroline" and the title track in particular.

not so much on Tusk.

Pretty sure "Big Love" is just him, too. And "Family Man." Basically anything featuring his pitch-altered/sampled vocals. With "Tusk" it's a little more obvious which tracks are just him banging around in the bathroom. Though of course stuff like the title track and "What Makes You Think You're the One" and "Walk a Thin Line" feature at least Mick banging away as well.

I saw something about having Mick replace the drums on "Big Love" with a copycat performance.

didn't he have Mick and John rerecord all the drum and bass tracks?

He might have. Mick and John pop up on his solo albums as well. There are so many drum overdubs on "Big Love," specifically - those kind of marching fills at the end, cymbal washes, little fills - that it makes sense some of that is Mick (who iirc at the time of "Tango" was totally zonked out and living in a trailer in Lindsey's yard). Most of it sounds like programming or something Lindsey could do, but Mick can be such a smooth drummer maybe it is him. Not even sure I've ever even noticed a bass on "Big Love!" Or keys. Has the band ever played it live as a band?

There are definitely a few complete Lindsey solo tracks that got ported over directly to "Say You Will" with either Mick and John on the original track or sort of dubbed on later.

They do 'Big Love' all the time but as Lindsey's Acoustic Moment.

But never as a full band, right?

Playing Big Love as a full band would just obfuscate the insane skill level required to play that guitar part and then manage to sing on top of it.

The version on Tango In The Night was such a missed opportunity. If he had recorded it in the mode of "Never Going Back Again", it would have been a classic. But it was 1987, not 1977, so instead we got the porn backing vocals and the miami vice production.

the og big love is great, how can you float "miami vice production" as a criticism and listen to the rest of the album

i'd like to suggest instead that it's lindsey's horny version of "running up that hill"

fair point, i suppose i do have the same issue with the rest of the album.

big love just feels different because of the missed opportunity. i remember when that song came out, and I just didn't connect with it all -- the "ugh/ahh" part at the end was really the defining element of the song. then several decades later, i heard a version of lindsay performing it solo, and it was stunning. i really couldn't believe it was the same song. or rather couldn't believe that the song he was playing was buried somewhere in the album version.

"running up that hill" is already v v horny
xp

but "big love" is def kate bushy and why i think it is dope af

can we ban "Miami Vice production" as criticism and phrase?

i'd like to suggest instead that it's lindsey's horny version of "running up that hill"

― princess of hell (BradNelson),

I'd long thought "Caroline" was but otm

my god

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tK3M6lBHA00

can we ban "Miami Vice production" as criticism and phrase?

― morning wood truancy (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, August 2, 2018 12:43 PM (twelve minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

no, if anything it should be projected on the walls of every recording studio as a deterrent

feel free to substitute "VHS cover meme"

alfred, thanks for the tip on little lies extended mix - have to hear that

The term "Miami Vice production" as a catch-all name for mid-to-late '80s production trends is useless, anyway.

Miami Vice used Bryan Ferry and Andy Taylor in its soundtracks: two distinct hair visions for the eighties.

I mean sure, you can tell that Tango in the Night, No Jacket Required, Born in the U.S.A. and Songs from the Big Chair all came out in the same decade, but the productions are still different from one another.

Also, I can't believe we're in 2018 and we're still seeing '80s records being criticised for sounding like records that were made in the '80s.

I was thinking more of modern-day records that strive to sound dated

Yet it's perfectly acceptable for Guided by Voices to record on 4-tracks and The White Stripes to record on old analogue equipment?

"Dated" isn't a pejorative, btw.

it is a sound I find highly unpleasant to listen to, how's that

That's better!

Framing "Big Love" as a missed opportunity presupposes that the live version had some notional existence at the time the original was composed - is there any evidence of that? I agree that Buckingham's live version is spellbinding, when I saw them live a few years ago it was the one moment of the show that gave me a chill even though I knew what was coming. But I've always assumed it was something that Buckingham developed after the fact. I'm just happy both versions of the song exist.

I don't think the studio version of 'Big Love' was a missed opportunity at all. The live version is indeed great, but the studio version still holds up.

Obviously the other thing about Tango is that it's a front to back production masterpiece that feels totally one of a kind and cohesive* so the idea of wanting to swap out some of its rococo excesses and make it less "Miami Vice" feels like a violence to me. If ever there was a record where "sounding like Miami Vice" was elevated to the level of vital ontology it was this one.

*except where Stevie's songs fall over.

in time this has become my favourite mac record

er next time to mirage

Another issue that I have with this whole "sounding like Miami Vice" bullshit is that Tango in the Night doesn't sound like Miami Vice at all.

otm

Tim F OTM about the quality of the production on this record, though - although I don't think the production is overstuffed or even excessive. I can think of far, far, far worse examples of heavy handed '80s production.

Seriously, this isn't even that "80s."

Are there even snares that go "poosh?"

The snare sounds are quite tasteful across most of the record, thinking about it - I can't think of any moments where cavernous reverb is applied or any excessive gated reverbs.

I guess Isn't It Midnight is pretty 80s, right down to the tempo.

The production on this record is '80s, though - it couldn't possibly be placed in any other decade - it just uses the trends of the time tastefully instead of in an OTT way like others did.

agreed. this record sounds super nice, not to simplify it - but yeah

It's basically the 80s way of making a record sound 70s dry, when most 80s signifiers lean hard on the studio mush.

"isn't it midnight" is like "what if the heart s/t were tasteful," a great question with a great answer

I dunno, the pristine digital quality of the overall sound and the programmed, layered nature of the production and the keyboard sounds used and the precise, automated nature of the mixes place this square in '80s territory for me, even without the massive reverbs. It has more in common with Brothers in Arms than it does No Jacket Required.

As for the drumming on 'Big Love', my guess is the same as Josh's in that I think it's actually a combination of programming and overdubbed drum parts. My guess is that Buckingham laid down a basic drum machine part as a guide (to get the timing tight) and built the track up from that, and then got Mick to overdub toms, "real" snare fills, cymbal washes etc. It's possible that the guide track was replaced eventually, but it doesn't sound like it.

If anything that's another intriguing data point in favor of the production: it's hard to tell what is programmed and what is Mick fuckin' Fleetwood.

Big Love is all about the Balearic masterpiece of a remix by Arthur baker imo

*except where Stevie's songs fall over.

uh whassamatta. baby.

That alt Mystified is pretty awesome and weird, though there's a single recurring drum sound in it that I'm finding crazily distracting.

Framing "Big Love" as a missed opportunity presupposes that the live version had some notional existence at the time the original was composed - is there any evidence of that?

In this interview he talks about Big Love being about "the potential of a single guitar doing the work of a whole track", so that tells me he might have written it that way first, then added all the other elements later in the process

https://youtu.be/iBSWt0b4K8E?t=71

and the dream says I WANT YOU
and the dream is gone

I never ever ever got burned out on 80s production styles/techniques. 90s and 00s, almost immediately.

If anything, my appreciation for the technical skill of '80s production has only increased with time. There were a lot of legitimately stunning production achievements in the '80s. Of course, there are many examples of the trends of the time done badly, but that exists in every decade.

The tightly shrinkwrapped Fairlight-playground production on this is killing me in the best possible way. Sounds in places like the mutant child of Mylène Farmer’s “Ainsi Sout je...” and “Cupid & Psyche” Scritti. Had never listened to this album in its entirety before yesterday.

If anything, my appreciation for the technical skill of '80s production has only increased with time. There were a lot of legitimately stunning production achievements in the '80s. Of course, there are many examples of the trends of the time done badly, but that exists in every decade.

― Le Baton Rose (Turrican)

lol what a pompous halfwit

“Isn’t It Midnight” deserved better.

And “Caroline” has become the go to song for my 3-year old to perform her experimental ballet routines.

Would be very curious to have a long discussion with the person who voted for "You and I, Part II"

Seven Wonders" (Stewart, Nicks) – 3:38 0

the hell

I finally heard the whole thing after hearing the singles for 33 years; would've voted for "Seven Wonders", with "Family Man" an amusing novelty. The production on the rest is not to my taste; I wonder to what extent drug intoxication and consequent decline in playing and singing ability necessitated Buckingham's sample-heavy approach?

I don't think Buckingham's ability to play has suffered even slightly?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZZp76M4NGc

i can't listen to 'family man' without thinking what it would be like if henry rollins was doing the backing vocal part

family... MAN

The production is the album, as in, insofar as songs exist as moods or humors Buckingham's mix bodies them.

The title track's as metal a moment as the Mac had achieved since I'm So Afraid off the 1980 Live album

Buckingham's solo in "Isn't It Midnight" too.

Not Buckingham's playing, I just wonder to what extent the aesthetic was determined by having a drummer and lead singer/songwriter in sub-optimal shape. Mirage has a lot less of that sampled sound although the technology did exist and was certainly available to them.

I meant, his playing wasn't deteriorating.

I just wonder to what extent the aesthetic was determined by having a drummer and lead singer/songwriter in sub-optimal shape.

I don't believe in intentionality, but yes: the band's been clear about the shape they were in.

I think Lindsey's spoken about how Stevie's contribution were scraped together as a result of her issues at the time, but I'm not aware of Mick struggling with playing at the time. I mean, the production is very much in keeping with the era?

xps

the band's been clear about the shape they were in.

― meticulously crafted, socially responsible, morally upsta (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, January 25, 2021 7:11 AM (forty-nine minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

i actually disagree, having read a few different interviews with them about it; they tell more than few contradictory stories

At the same time the album is out of time: the programemd chimes and music box effects are novel.

regardless i have encountered no information that suggests mick fleetwood's playing was hampered at all xp

His playing and the drum machines are identifiable.

Pretty sure huge hunks of the album were patched together with a Fairlight. I was blown away learning from the Replacements book that Jim Dickinson used a Fairlight to cobble together acceptable drum takes, and if even the Replacements were (unwittingly) using the Fairlight for that purpose there is no way that Bucky wasn't doing it the same way (and, coincidentally, the same year), especially given members of the Mac were as fucked up as the Mats (and Bucky, if he had his way, probably would have replaced them all with machines if he could have, anyway).

Maybe Mick was hampered because his drum vest hadn’t arrived by studio recording time.

that buckingham solo video is insane

i really hate "little lies" lol i grit my teeth thru it every time i listen to this album which otherwise consistently blows me away. it's one of those songs i really associate w/ being in the back of my mom's car in endless traffic jams trying to get home from school or baseball or something. how did it win this poll?

voting for "everywhere" would be cheating so i prob would've gone with "when i see you again" or "big love"

I can’t really imagine supporting one of the two Stevie non-singles.

"Little Lies" is such a perfectly constructed song abetted by sympathetic production that I never tire of it. I often think Nicks' nasally TELL ME LIIIES chorus backup vocal is the shrewdest, most moving of her Mac tenure.

vs

WASSA MADDA BABY....BABY...BAY-BEE....BABY!

― My life is butthurt so badly (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Saturday, September 5, 2009

God, I love "wassa madda baby"

BABY

BABY

BABY

ennyoooseeeeeiiiiwanyoooo rmphrumph

That second half, though! I read it was another Nicks scrap that Buck stapled. Beautiful.

y'all heard this? my god

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=558bIK_X1ZY

I totally became a Mac-obsessed 11year old at this point, thanks to the Big Love video and some really exploitative documentary that was on UK TV around the release of Tango, with its tales of guitarists going mad and multiple touring Macs... Picked up a cheap copy of that 1980 live album shortly afterwards and was in deep

I've not spent a lot of time with the Tango extras, I should but I wasn't hugely enamoured the first time I streamed em. Yeah, obviously a lot of those Nicks tracks were glued together from scraps on the factory floor - really skewed my nascent sense of what a song could/should be at an early age tbh. Maybe in a good way.

My favorite outtake:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYCEWeD_4lg

I need to stream em again - I'm not home-schooling tomorrow so hopefully I'll get a chance then!

This was the other thing that ran on UK TV around this time and made me a pre-teen Mac devotee - absolute fire drama and intensity, Lindsey and Stevie look like they're spitting at each other during The Chain...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdolGLi0Ayg

I've seen that Mirage tour doc, and, yeah, they're uh jacked up on something

Jacked up on love, my friend.

Also, metric tonnes of cocaine.

Good Bucky demo of "Big Love" here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBSWt0b4K8E

One thing I like about it is for a split second he doesn't have the right effect or mix or whatever enacted, but he quickly switches what needs to be switched.

There are lots of revelatory Bucky talks Bucky clips out there. Like this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCGKFY9NBZY

(Hilariously, he gets the time signature of his own virtuoso song wrong and has to be corrected!)

holy shit that acoustic Big Love is WILD

thrilled that that "big love" performance can still blow minds, as it did mine when i was 13 years old

I still stan for the original too, which sounded nothing like what I heard on the radio in early '87. The dance remix w/the house piano break is hot:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJh72NlHlmc

Can someone mount a defense of “You and I Pt II”? I always kind of want this record to flicker out exhausted with “When I See You Again” - the closer feels tacked on and inappropriately jaunty to me, but I am no Mac expert so I am keen to know if it works in some way that I don’t understand.

Listen to it this way, with both parts:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3SOOUtnJWg

Yeah the jauntiness of the second half makes more sense when it emerges out of the first half.

On the album it feels like an endearing but only partly successful attempt to recreate "Never Forget".

Ok I can totally see how the full version would work as a closer - but if I had to trim for time I would keep the first half for sure! I mean if they wanted a nothingy little ditty to finish the album on an up note that’d still work fine!

I am over invested apparently but for me this is a perfect sultry summer evening album and a masterpiece of mood and production as much as songwriting - but that last track always breaks the spell a little.

^agree with the last part. album is on a very short list of default throw-it-on-because-no-one-should-complain lists for me.

idk, that two-parter "You and I" sounds like a bad iteration of "No. 1 Song in Heaven." the two pieces don't fit right at the seams. that full version would've elevated the album, though.

LOVING the two part You & I, tbh

Really digging into extras on the deluxe reissue and damn if there is some good stuff. I have to wonder if Buckingham was on some Prince kick with all of his vocal moves throughout the material.

The subtle changes in the alternate version of “Mystified” have me feeling like that was the kind of sound ABBA would have been putting out if they’d stayed together.

"Little Lies" is such a perfectly constructed song abetted by sympathetic production that I never tire of it. I often think Nicks' nasally TELL ME LIIIES chorus backup vocal is the shrewdest, most moving of her Mac tenure.

Pretty sure huge hunks of the album were patched together with a Fairlight. I was blown away learning from the Replacements book that Jim Dickinson used a Fairlight to cobble together acceptable drum takes, and if even the Replacements were (unwittingly) using the Fairlight for that purpose there is no way that Bucky wasn't doing it the same way (and, coincidentally, the same year), especially given members of the Mac were as fucked up as the Mats (and Bucky, if he had his way, probably would have replaced them all with machines if he could have, anyway).

Agreed. The “Play in the Rain” section of the album especially popped into my head upon hearing the two parter version of “You and I”

Low quality bootleg camcorder recording of "Little Lies" from 1987. Sound quality dicey but comes off well

Better one from 90

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxBP5CnRZwE

(tho obv no Lindsey on either)

Burnette/Vito sounds awful.

I want that Stevie cloak.

yeah they had big shoes to fill and they filled it with....oh u know

Reminds me that I've never checked out any footage from the Campbell/Finn tour. I'm really curious, because I can't imagine the addition of either of those guys ever making something worse.

OK, here's a full show (Little Lies slotted second in the setlist!)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHmWxsGLNcU

Sounds fine, the biggest problem is that neither Neil nor Mike sound much like Bucky.

Admittedly, Nicks hasn't sounded much like herself for 35 years.

I have my own biases/tastes, but I've seen Fleetwood Mac minus Christine and they sounded great. I've seen Christine and Bucky tour together without the others and their take on Mac stuff sounded great. I've seen Bucky tour with his own band and he sounded great, too, Mac stuff included. As if it hadn't been demonstrated by his absence before, clearly Bucky as constant is pretty key to the Mac sound from S/T on, either by force of will or force of musical imagination.

Of course, I've seen Stevie solo a couple of times, too, and she was pretty good as well, but she doesn't need to lean *too* hard on the Mac stuff, given all her hits. Bucky sort of comes at it from a different perspective, rewarding people with some Mac stuff for putting up with all of his non-hits. Which admittedly are often pretty great, but he knows they're not substitutes, just alternatives.

Man, this quaalude mix of “Mystified” with Lindsey doing Mike Oldfield interludes in the guitar is p dope: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=558bIK_X1ZY

i wish i'd grabbed the alt-Tango when it came out for RSD, it's £££s on the discogs now