Rolling Teenpop 2007 Thread

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Rolling teenpop thread rolls over to a new year. Most actual teenagers listen to emo or goth or rock or hip-hop or r&b, the teenybopper r&b (Chris Brown et al.) doesn't get called teen but we talk about it here, or should, Kelly is swerving ever more rock (Mike Watt on the forthcoming album), Marion's now a dark L.A. sleaze bitch, while Marit is a wild fingerpainting singer-songwriter sprite. Radio Disney's dominance is skewing the "teenpop" center ever younger, which may leave a probing and restless brainiac like Ashlee out in the cold, faced with the choice of dumbing herself down for the adults or dumbing herself down for the kids, or simply fading out - though Aly & A.J. continue to probe restlessly and lucratively within the Disney confines. Hilary is poised to jump danceward whether or not there's a market to receive her. Lindsay has admitted she has a problem. Paris is a hated, talented bitch. Lily is a beloved, talented bitch. Ashley isn't a bitch but rose to stardom playing one. Zac just wants to dance. Girls Aloud are hunting for ghosts. Billy Ray Cyrus's daughter is a teenpop megastar. Teenpopper Michelle Branch is now a country star, while still sounding the same. Teen newbie Taylor Swift is on the country stations with teen confessional sounds and concerns and may have the talent to match Aly & A.J. if not Ashlee (yet). Ashley Monroe is waiting in the wings, half Jewel and half Dolly. Brie is publishing an arts and literature mag and assembling material for album two. Skye found Max, Max found Skye, but the shindig keeps getting postponed. Margaret's in love with a robot. Crazy Frog is writing his own lyrics. Jesse McCartney still wows the ladies. I'm now able to tolerate Bowling For Soup. Talk about all of this or whatever else you deem relevant. And WE STILL NEED MORE BRITS TO POST HERE, and some Asians and Scandinavians wouldn't hurt either.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Thursday, 4 January 2007 02:35 (6 years ago) Permalink

This was last year's thread, if you want to take a look.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Thursday, 4 January 2007 02:36 (6 years ago) Permalink

Amy Diamond's about where she was this time last year, but more so.

― nameom (nameom), Thursday, 4 January 2007 03:05 (6 years ago) Permalink

I still haven't really decided what I think of the Slumber Party Girls album (and nobody else seems to care one way or the other).

― xhuxk (xheddy), Thursday, 4 January 2007 03:08 (6 years ago) Permalink

Skye also found DR. LUKE and so did Britney!

― nameom (nameom), Thursday, 4 January 2007 03:20 (6 years ago) Permalink

Why nobody says nothing about Fefe Dobson? Where she has gone?

― Haikunym (Haikunym), Thursday, 4 January 2007 03:21 (6 years ago) Permalink

This year will be a great year for teenpop, methinks, with all the releases that are slated.

That being said, I wanted to start out the festivities by saying that I have been listening to the Vanessa Hudgens album lately and have been very surprised at how good it is. It was rushed, and it shows, but "Come Back to Me" is one of the 3 or 4 worst songs on the album, and there are several standout tracks. Including "Say OK" which is the next single to Radio Diz.

― Greg Fanoe (JustFanoe), Thursday, 4 January 2007 03:47 (6 years ago) Permalink

Heard on the radio this morning is that Scott Storch is trying to court Lindsay Lohan so as to get on to producing her next album. Either that or get into her pants. But anyways, Storch producing Lohan would certainly be interesting.

― Greg Fanoe (JustFanoe), Thursday, 4 January 2007 04:19 (6 years ago) Permalink

Brit posting.

I don't know anything about Lindsay Lohan/Ashlee Simpson/Hilary Duff really- where should I start, if indeed I should start?

Also, are The Fray teenpop? They seem to be teen band of the moment in 'Merica at least, according to my intensive livejournal research. Well, teen band that isn't emo, anyway. They're sort of borderline emo borderline indie powerpop/soft rock and completely clean sounding thus could be on Radio Disney (in fact, I kind of assume they are?)

FeFe Dobson got dropped didn't she? Which is a bit rubbish- I thought she was great.

― Hazel Robinson (Moggy), Thursday, 4 January 2007 10:56 (6 years ago) Permalink

British teenpop = dead. Other than, like Hard-Fi and stuff.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Thursday, 4 January 2007 11:10 (6 years ago) Permalink

(I think this is why not many Brits post to the teenpop thread, Frank - the niche here just isn't that big now. If it was the Rolling Pop Which Might Or Might Not Be Teen 2007 thread you might have more luck!)

― Tom (Groke), Thursday, 4 January 2007 11:12 (6 years ago) Permalink

British teenpop = dead. Other than, like Hard-Fi and stuff

True. Even McFly, who could've got a number one by sneezing a bit a year and a half ago, are basically going down the pan. Charlotte Church was probably the last great British teenpop escapade and we all know where that went. (Actually I've noticed a correllation between British teenpop and terrible album names: Mcfly are probably winning with 'Motion In The Ocean' but Charlotte's 'Tissues and Issues' is almost as rubbish) Consequently it's a bit of a fetish, more than a genre over here, I'd think.

― Hazel Robinson (Moggy), Thursday, 4 January 2007 11:22 (6 years ago) Permalink

Maybe this is a half-decent place to discuss the "British pop died when Rachel Stevens was banned from appearing on Dick N Dom In Da Bunglow" theory?

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Thursday, 4 January 2007 11:27 (6 years ago) Permalink

no.

― lex pretend (lex pretend), Thursday, 4 January 2007 11:32 (6 years ago) Permalink

lindsay lohan: both albums are good, the first (speak) is better, the second (a little more personal (RAW)) is more wtf (eg, the title). key works: 'rumors', the lil jon full phatt rmx of 'rumors', 'first', 'nobody til you', 'confessions of a broken heart (daughter to father)' and its associate video

ashlee simpson: frank will recommend more and better than i can - 'boyfriend' is the acest thing ever, though

hilarity duff - has made my favourite songs out of all three! never heard an actual duff album but 'beat of my heart', 'the math' and 'come clean' are all INCREDIBLE

― lex pretend (lex pretend), Thursday, 4 January 2007 11:38 (6 years ago) Permalink

hi r there any hot teens here?

holla

― benrique (Enrique), Thursday, 4 January 2007 11:44 (6 years ago) Permalink

Why nobody says nothing about Fefe Dobson?

I will! I bought her self-titled album from 2003 (debut, I assume?) for $3 at a thrift store down the street in early December, and I like it a lot -- a missing link between Alanis and Skye, almost, and I was surprised by how hard it rocks (there's even some Kittie in there, I think: those acts are all Canadian, right?) Favorite track is probably "Unforgiven" (her obligatory getting-revenge-on-daddy number, if I'm remembering right) with the first three tracks and "Rock It Til You Drop It" and "Give It Up" not too far behind.

But nope, I have no idea where she's gone too since, either. (I also heard a CD single from 2005 recently, "Don't Let It Go To Your Head," which I found on the free table at work, and wasn't all that impressed by it at least compared to the earlier stuff I heard.)

― xhuxk (xheddy), Thursday, 4 January 2007 11:53 (6 years ago) Permalink

I heard she balked at the excessively teen-R&B way that the Evil Record Co. was making her go. She's probably floating in the St. Lawrence about now wearing concrete snowshoes, eh? But yeah, "Stupid Little Love Song" is total great rock-out music, she had a nice snarl on even her more ballady things...RIP BABY.

Also Lex OTM about Hil-D's "The Math," if that had been issued as a single it would have been my #1 of that year. Sadly, no.

― Haikunym (Haikunym), Thursday, 4 January 2007 14:36 (6 years ago) Permalink

"Rachel Stevens was banned from appearing on Dick N Dom In Da Bunglow"

when she appeared she conveniently vanished when gunge was flying around. she banned herself

― Britain's Obtusest Shepherd (Alan), Thursday, 4 January 2007 14:43 (6 years ago) Permalink

I don't understand the "Beat of My Heart" love. I still think "Wake Up" is way better. Add "Metamorphosis" (proto-Ashlee?), "Fly" and "So Yesterday" to those Lex listed as my fave Hilary tracks.

― Greg Fanoe (JustFanoe), Thursday, 4 January 2007 15:19 (6 years ago) Permalink

Moggy, simply start from track one of the first Ashlee album - Autobiography - and go from there. Gawky, desperate for acceptance, moments of grating imitation-Courtney oversinging ["won't be TRUUUUE," this ugly gagglespazz of a splatter voice], but also this absolute energy and confidence that There. Is. Something. Here. Worth. Hearing. Dammit! First track = fanfare, come-on. Second track = This is unbelievable, I'm loved! Third track = I crawled my way here, through neglect and my own feelings of hatred, had to find myself as the condition of finding others. Fourth track = AND NOW I CAN HAVE SEX (and be safe and accepted and be someone other than myself, even). And on from there: Then everything gets confused, then I complicate matters for everybody ("Love Me For Me," absolutely hilarious, darkhorse candidate for greatest Ashlee song), and then through to the final song of album two, "Say Goodbye," turns out Ashlee is more accepting than accepted, sings greatest, most complex, saddest breakup line ever.

Where does she go from here? Where does she find an audience? Whom does she model herself on? Are there any current adult rock-confessional singer-songwriters that aren't bullshit? (Well, Marit, maybe. I don't see her style as a pathway for Ashlee, however. Young 'uns like Skye and Brie seem more thoughtful than any of the grownups I can think of. Maybe they can model sanity for Ashlee, and she can model compexity for them, if they pay attention to each other, though I kind of doubt they will.)

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Thursday, 4 January 2007 16:13 (6 years ago) Permalink

The Fray are here in Denver, very nice guys I heard; a teen I know goes to East High School where they shot a video. Yet generate no excitement in the teens I know (probably not a representative sample), even if the teens'll say positive things about the band if you ask 'em.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Thursday, 4 January 2007 16:32 (6 years ago) Permalink

when will teenpop put down the guitars, is my prime concern right now to be honest.

― lex pretend (lex pretend), Thursday, 4 January 2007 16:35 (6 years ago) Permalink

or...the earnestness, at least.

― lex pretend (lex pretend), Thursday, 4 January 2007 16:35 (6 years ago) Permalink

B-b-but teens are often kind of earnest. They're often not earnest, too, but earnestness needs a place!

― Tom (Groke), Thursday, 4 January 2007 16:39 (6 years ago) Permalink

i like a lot of the earnestness! but i don't like this being, almost entirely, what teenpop is about. britney and xtina were never this earnest all the time!

― lex pretend (lex pretend), Thursday, 4 January 2007 16:42 (6 years ago) Permalink

Lindsay and Ashlee aren't earnest all the time either, though...in fact, the one Lindsay track that's most egregiously missing from your list -- "I Live for the Day" -- is funny! "I live for the day/ I live for the night/ When you will be desperate/ And I am in sight!" See also: Ashlee - "Love Me for Me," Lindsay - "Who Loves You"...I think the tone is varied. (Also, when Lindsay and Ashlee are funny, they tend to be funnier than Britney and Xtina.) But what is this, Rolling Teenpop 2005?!

Brie seriously needs to find this thread, guaranteed she'll take some pointers AND participate. This should be a two-way process. In case she googles her name impulsively: Brie Larson Henry Miller Bunnies and Traps (hey, they have a theme song).

Whom does she model herself on?

I imagine Ashlee models herself on Kara DioGuardi more than anyone else. Kara doesn't seem to be full of shit; her music (with Platinum Weird anyway) just isn't as good as her proteges'.

Fefe's new album, Sunday Love, was technically (accidentally) released before (or while) Island dropped her, but I haven't found a physical copy of it. Hopefully it will get properly released in 2007. A couple of the tracks are great, particularly "If I Was a Guy" and "As a Blonde." I have most of the album if anyone wants to hear it, or at least a couple of other tracks.

"The Math" got Radio Disney play (I think), which should probably be enough to count it as a "single," since they don't really operate on the same wavelength as Billboard...basically if they play it, it's a single.

― nameom (nameom), Thursday, 4 January 2007 17:35 (6 years ago) Permalink

Hm, never actually googled the lyrics to that Lindsay song, that's "you will be desperate and dying inside," which is less funny, but not UNfunny.

― nameom (nameom), Thursday, 4 January 2007 17:37 (6 years ago) Permalink

Also new Fefe live, "Get Off My Back", great double entendre spite-pop (like "I Am Me," also very funny/great Ashlee). "I'll do anything to get you off...to get you off my back!"

― nameom (nameom), Thursday, 4 January 2007 17:40 (6 years ago) Permalink

Non earnest teen pop in America is monopolized by Disney as far as I can tell...High School Musical, Hannah Montana, Cheetahs, etc. The problem is that a lot of the songs aren't too great on their own merits.

Brie Larson isn't particulary earnest althought her latest songs have been. Hilary Duff is part earnest/part not earnest. But no more earnest that Britney or Xtina were. Ooh, Hope Partlow's "Crazy Summer Nights", you might like that Lex it's a totally non-earnest teen pop song. All about the fun! Although it does have guitars. Actually this is harder than I thought.

― Greg Fanoe (JustFanoe), Thursday, 4 January 2007 17:42 (6 years ago) Permalink

And for what it's worth I know that at least Mike Saunders had "The Math" on his P&J ballot in 2004.

― Greg Fanoe (JustFanoe), Thursday, 4 January 2007 17:45 (6 years ago) Permalink

xpost xpost xpost

I hear it as "You will be desperate and dying inside." Lindsay does an amazing "I wanna see you CRAWLING." But basic point is right. "First" is incredibly funny, making a joke out of her self-involvement. (Of course, Kara and John wrote "First," but they did a great job of finding words to embody Lindsay's image. (Or, perhaps, to create that image in my mind in the first place, since that was the first notice I ever took of her.))

But anyway, dancepop is all over teenpop radio; problem is that most of it is mediocre dancepop, 'cept for stuff they pull in from outside the Disney orbit (Chris Brown, JoJo, Rihanna). There are some promising *NSync-like tendencies in Corbin Bleu and Jesse McCartney, but nowhere near *NSync's strength.

By the way, I'm not sure how to categorize Hannah Montana and High School Musical musically (I mean, other than as "teenpop").

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Thursday, 4 January 2007 17:53 (6 years ago) Permalink

I said in last year's intro that I'd been surprised by rock confessional being a good thing for teenpop.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Thursday, 4 January 2007 17:57 (6 years ago) Permalink

Jonas Brothers are very guitar-based and very light and fun. (Well, they have a song addressed to God at the end, but so does JoJo, and they're both good songs!)

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Thursday, 4 January 2007 17:59 (6 years ago) Permalink

Addressed to God at the end of their respective albums, that is. Not at the end of the universe. (Just wanted to make that clear.)

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Thursday, 4 January 2007 18:00 (6 years ago) Permalink

Xtina is hardly a standard-bearer for nonearnestness.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Thursday, 4 January 2007 18:02 (6 years ago) Permalink

I like the songs I've heard from the upcoming Nickelodeon series "The Naked Brothers Band." I'm sure the show will be butt-ugly, but the singer really belts it out!

― Haikunym (Haikunym), Thursday, 4 January 2007 18:03 (6 years ago) Permalink

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9G7Q-hJC2jw

― Haikunym (Haikunym), Thursday, 4 January 2007 18:05 (6 years ago) Permalink

i'm surprised not to have seen anything round these parts about the "high school musical" phenomenomena.

― CharlieNo4 (Charlie), Thursday, 4 January 2007 18:13 (6 years ago) Permalink

it's because there are boys in it

― Haikunym (Haikunym), Thursday, 4 January 2007 18:15 (6 years ago) Permalink

Lead Naked Bro seems to have listened to Lil Chris. And he (or his songwriter) has probably listened to '60s Neil Diamond, as well.

Here's the Naked Brothers Band site on Nickelodeon. Two good songs out of four. "Cra-a-a-a-azy car, leads me nowhere."

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Thursday, 4 January 2007 18:23 (6 years ago) Permalink

Actually, it's "to lead me nowhere." Actually, that's what it's for.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Thursday, 4 January 2007 18:28 (6 years ago) Permalink

A listener from eastern Michigan calls in the following question: "Know anything about Tobias Karlsson? He's the producer and the cowriter on all but 2 tracks (incl. the one w/ Max Martin) on Linda Sundblad's 'Oh my God!' (She's cowriter on all the trax). and really, Linda & Tobias crank out more crazy hooks than anyone but Max/Luke, albeit more disco-ier ones."

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Thursday, 4 January 2007 18:55 (6 years ago) Permalink

First: Thank god ILX is back. Though lj was a decent surrogate, I really love having a flood of stuff to read everyday.

Second: Is Taana Gardner teenpop? Obviously there are arguments why she isn't, but I hear teenpop in her music - and that sense of young exuberance that is especially in vogue in Disney. (btw; Frank, thanks for the recommendation - she's amazing.)

Third: There's a new High School musical out this year, right?

― Mordechai Shinefield (Mordy), Thursday, 4 January 2007 19:24 (6 years ago) Permalink

I don't think Taana Gardner was ever considered teenpop. Her fan support was from the New York dance-club scene. This wouldn't have prevented NY area teens c. 1979-1982 from listening to her, using "Heartbeat" on their hip-hop tracks, etc.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Thursday, 4 January 2007 20:05 (6 years ago) Permalink

What teens (and younger) among my MySpace friends have playing on their profile pages:

Kill Hannah "I Love You to Death"
Cartoons (?) "Witch Doctor"
Turtles "Happy Together"
Simple Minds "Don't You Forget About Me"
Cascada "Everytime We Touch"
Melody Club "Baby"
Richard Hell & The Voidoids "Blank Generation"
Paula DeAndra "Walk Away"
One had her song deleted by artist, but has McFly pics as her wallpaper (she's from Denver)
One just posted the lyrics to Evanescence's "Immortal" in a MySpace bulletin
One just posted how unhappy she was to be too young to go to the Fall Out Boys show.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Thursday, 4 January 2007 20:06 (6 years ago) Permalink

Fall Out Boys = Fall Out Boy

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Thursday, 4 January 2007 20:07 (6 years ago) Permalink

there is a new video game that lets you do karaoke at home and in the commercial they use a cover of "Friday I'm in Love" and my kids went around singing that song so we spent a pleasant hour looking up old Cure videos on YouTube and man was that "Friday" video awesome and man do my kids love Robert's hair

― Haikunym (Haikunym), Thursday, 4 January 2007 20:11 (6 years ago) Permalink

Yeah, I remember when that song came out. We at Radio On kept making all these Robinson Crusoe jokes.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Thursday, 4 January 2007 20:24 (6 years ago) Permalink

I guess Ashlee could go the Pink route and record something with an approved rock person, let that record fail, then regroup with an interesting person which will cause wags to reconsider her work in light-ironic-retro light and call it a return to form.

Whatver--if she doesn't exnay te tabloid thing, she's fucked.

― Grey, Ian (IanBrooklyn), Thursday, 4 January 2007 21:06 (6 years ago) Permalink

Skye Sweetnam seems to be doing it at once: she reports that she's got forthcoming tracks with the very same Approved Rock Person and a forthcoming track w/ very same subsequent Interesting Persons (though rather than referring to them by those monikers she calls them Tim and Max and Luke).

Btw, Luke hasn't scored a U.S. hit since "Behind These Hazel Eyes," though he's produced and co-written a number of great tracks (and some mediocrities and duds, too).

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Thursday, 4 January 2007 21:43 (6 years ago) Permalink

Btw: Fox canceled The O.C. Which is one of the odder examples of Teenpop (where the plots, characters, stories are teenpop, but the music is indie or indie-derivative). Among teens I spoke to 2-3 years ago, The O.C. was mostly responsible for their listening habits. Which is why a friend has Modest Mouse immediately following Ashley Simpson on her iPod. Canceling The O.C. is a huge shame though, because I started watching again this year (after a 2 year hiatus from the show) and it was even better than I remembered it during the first season. But the fatality is probably due to the stars getting older - no longer being relatable (Summer had a pregnancy scare in the last episode, and Seth proposed to her -- this isn't teenpop stuff, unless you're counting DeGrassi as teenpop. But DeGrassi has always seemed a little too edgy to me to be completely teen'pop' vis-a-vis it definitely being teen but no definitely being pop. And The O.C. is no longer teen either - even if it may still be pop).

So where do those indie influences go?

Also -- Meg & Dia placed very high in Absolutepunk polls for 2006. AP is more open-minded than AlternativePress forums, but still, co-opting that album as a punk album is a stretch-and-a-half. So maybe there's a reverse influence we haven't noticed. Last year, the intro to this forum was talking about how pop-punk (like Bowling for Soup) was becoming teenpop. But what I missed was that pop was becoming pop-punk was becoming punk. (And now I see Absolutepunk.net posted the new Modest Mouse single, which just confuses everything.)

― Mordechai Shinefield (Mordy), Thursday, 4 January 2007 21:45 (6 years ago) Permalink

The O.C. and Veronica Mars are interesting examples of peddling their music directors' hipster cred via teen drama fronts. With Mars--which I love, love, love--it's so extreme as to seem like stealth Pitchfork indoctrination.

Looking forward to what Skye comes up with.

― Grey, Ian (IanBrooklyn), Thursday, 4 January 2007 22:22 (6 years ago) Permalink

Whatver--if she doesn't exnay te tabloid thing, she's fucked.

Impossible, because she's been trying to ixnay the tabloid thing. In fact, she's arguably been less successful by resisting them than Lindsay, who has for better or worse thrown herself into it and at least topped year-end lists for "Most Annoying" or whatever else. I mean, Lindsay could even go INDIE CRED at this point if she wanted to (which she very well might do with her film career). Ashlee will probably never have cred, since by all rights she should already have it (how much more "rock" could Ashlee even go?)

Unless you consider getting a nosejob "asking for it" in terms of tabloid coverage, I see Ashlee as a fairly resistant victim of tabloid culture who in her professional life (e.g. leading role in Chicago in London) is trying to gain "credibility" and very clearly shuns tabloid coverage (she never answers questions about the n'job).

― nameom (nameom), Thursday, 4 January 2007 22:31 (6 years ago) Permalink

I think One Tree Hill is the only major teen show that has a soundtrack which actually reflects what teenagers listen to. OTH only cares about appealing to teenagers, it was never meant to be critically acclaimed or anything, and the music they feature matches that. In the 3rd season they even had a character briefly dating Pete Wentz! It is quite indie/authentic, with even less non-guitar songs than The OC, but it's teen indie, not adult indie.

As for UK teenpop, we have Lil Chris where Sweden has Amy Diamond and I think that pretty much says it all. Even teenage popstars have to get Jo Whiley's permission these days. I do think there might be a place for a pop group aiming at under-12s though, as High School Musical has been very successful here, and hideous childrens TV show theme songs (namely LazyTown, which I hadn't even heard of before I saw the music video) can still go top 5. I think Chipz should be launched here!

― Jessica P (Jessica P), Friday, 5 January 2007 01:38 (6 years ago) Permalink

I only watch one TV show and its soundtrack is mostly Led Zeppellin et al, however, even Supernatural did deign to put 'Sugar, We're Going Down' by Fall Out Boy playing on a girl's stereo in a scene in the first series. [tenuous relevancy at very best, I know]

I was going to say something about Lil Chris, then wondered whether he wasn't really teenpop but pop for older people to think was teen? Either way, I agree wholly about the Whiley Factor. Good god, I hate that woman. Not quite as much as I hate that Sportacus git from Lazytown (which takes over TMF for TWO HOURS every morning) but still.

― Hazel Robinson (Moggy), Friday, 5 January 2007 02:06 (6 years ago) Permalink

Veronica Mars isn't really a teenpop show - I'd bet its viewers skew to college age and up. Just like Brick was not a teenpop movie. They're both high-school noir (now college noir in VM's case) - even less teenpop than Degrassi.

Also must give thanks to this thread for making me stop and check out Brie Larson finally - going by all the subcult trappings of her nonmusic activities I bet she won't be making teenpop much longer, for better or worse.

― Zoilus (zoilus), Friday, 5 January 2007 02:09 (6 years ago) Permalink

I love the High School Musical songs - that comfortable slightly R&B backing they tend to use now seems inextricably bound to tweenagerness so it feels really natural and organic.

I'd like to see a heightened youth-Musical vibe to teen-pop actually. I was watching Camp again for the umpteenth time last week and my boyfriend pointed out that no-one really tends to put out songs like "Here's Where I Stand" anymore (when did they?). The closest is Christina Aguilera but her big numbers don't grapple with youth in the same way.

I guess I'm asking for more earnestness! Sorry Lex!

― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Friday, 5 January 2007 03:15 (6 years ago) Permalink

I kind of agree that VM isn't teenpop in a certain sense...but like Buffy before it/her, it has this weirdly schizo demographic--actual older teens and grownups who like the metaphore whozits, the later of which explains the indie-esque rock, I suppose. (The same music approach manifested on Buffy, where 'teens' far from the city listened unconvincingly to Cibo Matta.)

― Grey, Ian (IanBrooklyn), Friday, 5 January 2007 04:27 (6 years ago) Permalink

But to be blindingly obvious, and to reference Frank's intro, most actual teens don't actually listen to what we're calling teenpop: it's, sort of like I've asserted is the case with VM and Buffy, a matter of two far seperated demos enjoying it--in the case of teenpop, kids under 14 or so and adults who find of value in perhaps more abstract, or at least highly astheticized views of it.

The teens I know here do indeed like, say, MCR, Marilyn Manson, AFI and maybe some emo bands.

Back to blindiningly obvious--when does it stop being teenpop, I mean, especially considering that most of the first wave are all growed up and all? Is it an age, a marketing idea, a concept of an age group or an aesthetic that's temprally bound or, um, what?

― Grey, Ian (IanBrooklyn), Friday, 5 January 2007 04:38 (6 years ago) Permalink

As an alternative to the Radio Disney playlists and request lists, here is a list of the videos retired by TRL during 2006 (to be retired, a video has to stay in the top 10 for 10 weeks). So this is songs with videos which were huge hits among teens:

Kelly Clarkson - "Because of You" (January 6, 2006)
Fall Out Boy - "Dance, Dance" (January 17, 2006)
Mariah Carey - "Don't Forget About Us" (February 6, 2006)
Madonna - "Hung Up" (February 6, 2006)
Kelly Clarkson - "Walk Away" (June 1, 2006)
Fall Out Boy - "A Little Less Sixteen Candles, A Little More "Touch Me"" (June 6, 2006)
Red Hot Chili Peppers - "Dani California" (July 10, 2006)
Fort Minor - "Where'd You Go" (July 17, 2006)
Christina Aguilera - "Ain't No Other Man" (September 26, 2006)
Justin Timberlake featuring Timbaland - "SexyBack" (October 10, 2006)
AFI - "Love Like Winter" (December 11, 2006)

Nothing too shocking here, Kelly Clarkson and Fall Out Boy are huge of course, as we all know. A bit surprised to see "Hung Up" and the Chilis here, but whatever, maybe it's just that the videos were great. And what's up with no Fergie-ferg. Screw you kids.

― Greg Fanoe (JustFanoe), Friday, 5 January 2007 05:33 (6 years ago) Permalink

Lindsay and Ashlee aren't earnest all the time either, though...in fact, the one Lindsay track that's most egregiously missing from your list -- "I Live for the Day" -- is funny!

it is funny but - like a lot of their earnest material - it's funny precisely because it's over-earnest! and i love it but at heart it's a cathartic rock song which takes more cues from courtney love than anything else lohan has sung. essentially - i am fine with this being a key part of teenpop but it's ALL like this now.

I was going to say something about Lil Chris, then wondered whether he wasn't really teenpop but pop for older people to think was teen?

i think this is correct, he seems pitched very much at an older popjustice demographic. anyway don't get me started on lil fucking chris, everyone i know loves it but it just fills me with horror. more proof that pop has forgotten a key First Principle ie "we dance to disco and we DON'T. LIKE. ROCK."

― lex pretend (lex pretend), Friday, 5 January 2007 10:06 (6 years ago) Permalink

― m coleman (lovebug starski), Friday, 5 January 2007 12:01 (6 years ago) Permalink

Lex, you're not listening to what we're saying. The rock confessional wave seems to have passed on Radio Disney (Aly & A.J. are the exceptions maybe), and most of what you're getting is High School Musical and Hannah Montana and Jonas Brothers and Jesse McCartney (whom you never didn't get etc. etc. etc.), r&b and dancepop is back in a big way (in fact never left; B5 has been all over Radio Disney for the last two years), many of the Disney troupe played/play in comedies (incl. Aly Michalka), none of the big confessional people other than Michelle Branch and Kelly Clarkson are entirely earnest, and Lindsay and Ashlee have songs that are wildly comic and not unintentially so ("Who Loves You" and "Love Me For Me" are just two examples) and do fun very very well (on "Burning Up" Ashlee chews every piece of scenery she can get her teeth into), if you're insisting that Lindsay is fully 24/7 earnest, then so is every r&b star that I can think of (yes, I can hear the humor in "Ring The Alarm" but then I can hear the humor in "First"), and so on and so on and so on. We even had a discussion last year about humor in Lindsay (who's biggest film hits have been comedies) and humor in teenpop in general, if you care to do a search. (I remember someone wondering why Kelly - unlike the others - couldn't bring the humor of her personality into her music; and of course she has a great gut-laughter line: "There's no light at the end of the tunnel tonight/Just a bridge that I gotta burn," though that was provided by Kara or John.) So, get your head in the game.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Friday, 5 January 2007 15:58 (6 years ago) Permalink

Lots of teens listen to indie. Met a 16 year old last year who was carrying a Yo La Tengo poster. (And she was wearing a Morningwood button, so she wasn't exclusively in the indie ghetto. Had "My Humps" as her ringtone.)

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Friday, 5 January 2007 16:01 (6 years ago) Permalink

Yeah, my 11-year-old is probably more a target of teenpop than any 16-year-old. She likes "High School Musical" and Skye Sweetnam and P!atD and "Crazy" (anyone who doesn't think this is a teenpop song is a nut) and Kelly and H-Duff and La Lohan and Gwen Stefani and Fefe...but she also loves Loretta Lynn and disco and old-timey musicals, and she did her 5th grade project last spring on the connections between 1950s music and today's r&b and rock.

― Haikunym (Haikunym), Friday, 5 January 2007 16:07 (6 years ago) Permalink

I'm totally available to perform "Get Your Head In The Game" at any karaoke or tenuously-similar events if it helps Lex to focus.

I must say I don't really understand the rock/pop dichotomy Lex appears to use here much - at least not in relation to teenpop. "U + Ur Hand" is a good example of the murkiness of the divide at the moment: yes, the chorus is the big earnest rock soar, but it's simultaneously the big pop manoeuvre within the song (conversely the "mature" "Nobody Knows" is like Pink's rapprochement with Christina Aguilera).

Of course I'm sure no-one at this thread would be pleased if rocky teenpop came at the expense of stuff like, say, "A Public Affair", but as per Frank I don't think pop is currently so dominated by one idea that this could happen. The success of Fergie and Nelly Furtado last year show this - "Hollaback Girl" has become a pop sub-genre now in the same way that "Sk8ter Boi" became a pop sub-genre in 2003/4.

― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Friday, 5 January 2007 16:13 (6 years ago) Permalink

Luke hasn't scored a U.S. hit since "Behind These Hazel Eyes"

Lady Sovereign's "Love Me Or Hate Me" triumphed on TRL, but this didn't result in radio play; Pink's "U & Ur Hand" got only minor radio action; ditto Paris's "Nothing In This World."

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Friday, 5 January 2007 18:32 (6 years ago) Permalink

I'm distressed that Gwen's "Wind It Up" isn't getting Disney play. Further evidence that Disney is doing its best to avoid product they don't own.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Friday, 5 January 2007 19:32 (6 years ago) Permalink

ihttps://secure.myplash.com/consumer/publicaccess/..%5CImages%5CCard_5188.gif

― Je4nn3 Fuhfuh (Je4nne Fury), Friday, 5 January 2007 19:52 (6 years ago) Permalink

Damnit. The image above would have conveyed that Avril's on a MasterC4rd.

― Je4nn3 Fuhfuh (Je4nne Fury), Friday, 5 January 2007 19:52 (6 years ago) Permalink

Maybe Radio Disney thought "Wind It Up" was contrived and annoying!!!

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Friday, 5 January 2007 20:01 (6 years ago) Permalink

I don't know the extent to which it's still true - we no longer have a Radio Disney station where I live - but one of the things I liked about Radio Disney was that it did seem to be de-emphasizing ugliness and obnoxiousness.

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Friday, 5 January 2007 20:06 (6 years ago) Permalink

Tim: it's so fucking nice to hear that someone else out there loves Camp as much as I do. (I even voted for its soundtrack in P&J that year!)

― Thomas Inskeep (submeat), Friday, 5 January 2007 20:08 (6 years ago) Permalink

Er, that's Tim Finney I'm addressing. (Though maybe you like Camp too, Mr. Ellison, I dunno.)

― Thomas Inskeep (submeat), Friday, 5 January 2007 20:09 (6 years ago) Permalink

I love Camp too - it's High School Musical without the sickly sweetness, although I do love HSM for being so sweet & innocent, that's its charm.

Looking up the current TRL voting list, the first act I've found is a teen r'n'b boyband called 2Much. They're similar to B2K, who I know were successful - would we call this teenpop or is it just r'n'b marketed to a younger audience (or perhaps the usual audience, just with singers of their own age)?

― Jessica P (Jessica P), Friday, 5 January 2007 20:29 (6 years ago) Permalink

Here's a dopey question - did that Ashley Parker Angel WIT GUITAR album / single go anywhere?

― David R. (popshots75`), Friday, 5 January 2007 20:35 (6 years ago) Permalink

I never understood, ever since I read that HSM review that compared the movie to Grease, why people thought HSM was saccharine and sweet. There are a number of parts, like 'Stick to the Status Quo' which show tension, confusion, etcetera. I guess it's because it doesn't openly deal with the neurosis - but I think it's obvious from Disney graduates that something is simmering beneath the shiny gloss other than just happy smiles.

Anyway: I loved Camp.

― Mordechai Shinefield (Mordy), Friday, 5 January 2007 21:02 (6 years ago) Permalink

The only I saw of APA was at an Ashlee concert. The crowd went wild for him, but I don't know if this resulted in any airplay. I seem to recall he was pretty big on MTV for a split second, what with the reality show (and debuting "Let U Go" on TRL, I think).

(Wikipedia: Got to #12 on Hot 100 in its second week, stayed in the charts from April to July, "Soundtrack to Your Life" hovered in the 50-ish range.)

― nameom (nameom), Friday, 5 January 2007 22:24 (6 years ago) Permalink

HSM just has that general Disney feel, just very inoffensive and family-oriented, which is not a bad thing in my books, just different to Camp. There is tension but that's just part of the story arc. Grease had underlying sexuality and HSM has none of that, but it's sweet in a nice way, it's a positive thing.

― Jessica P (Jessica P), Friday, 5 January 2007 22:36 (6 years ago) Permalink

Drake out of Drake & Josh (no idea what it's about but I know Ashley Tisdale's in it) has a single out, kind of Daniel Powter-ish and very boring! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdXOJyfZDys Anyone know if he's doing well? In a similar vein, what's happened to Teddy Geiger? He was cute, but sounded like a John Mayer tribute act.

― Jessica P (Jessica P), Friday, 5 January 2007 22:47 (6 years ago) Permalink

I like how the record label have given Drake an emo patch but made him do AOR instead. Crossover appeal!

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Friday, 5 January 2007 22:50 (6 years ago) Permalink

Corbin Bleu (Chad from HSM) has a music video too, so presumably a single - it's from a new film called Jump In, but the song (Push It To The Limit) is just a load of nothingness. I find this with a lot of these Disney songs, they sound like an imitation of a genre (in this case r'n'b) without anything distinct or compelling about them. They're the musical equivalent of 10 yr old girls copying what their older sister wears - they may have all the same components for the outfit/song but it pales in comparison to the real thing.

― Jessica P (Jessica P), Friday, 5 January 2007 22:59 (6 years ago) Permalink

Hellogoodbye are a band I've been following for a couple of years who should be included in this thread. They've cleverly tagged onto the emo bandwagon but their music is some of the poppiest around. Here In Your Arms (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bUkxTznujo) seems to be their biggest song and sounds like it was made up for a fake boyband in a film or something like that. They've managed to get really poppy music into the stereos of kids who'd die if they were labelled as pop fans - quite a triumph, I'd say!

― Jessica P (Jessica P), Friday, 5 January 2007 23:11 (6 years ago) Permalink

hellogoodbye was in my top 10 for 2006, it's so much a sliver of emo added onto what sounds like late 90s German electro alternopop. It reminds me of Liquido, tbh:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcEfQr4J6yo

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Friday, 5 January 2007 23:14 (6 years ago) Permalink

So "Let U Go" was a hit, or semi-hit, without my noticing. Which means Dr. Luke hasn't had a hit since "Let U Go." (And Ashley Parker Angel seems to have since vanished.)

The Corbin Bleu song is pretty likable, I think, but pallid not only in comparison to - say - JoJo or Chris Brown, but also in comparison to old *NSync and New Kids In The Block.

Jordan Pruitt, she of "Outside Looking In," a quite winning bit of teen-sensitive alienation, is now heading towards dance pop: "We Are Family" and the new one, "Step To The Rhythm" - which is not an amazing song, but her timbre is excellent in a way that I can't think how to describe. It's got enough burrs and bumps to give it character, but it still basically flows. Album due February 6. "Teenager," on her MySpace, has stereotypical words about supposed teen concerns, but the voice gives it feelings that the words only wave at.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Friday, 5 January 2007 23:19 (6 years ago) Permalink

Prepositionally challenged: New Kids On The Block. Jeesh.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Friday, 5 January 2007 23:34 (6 years ago) Permalink

Yeah, Hellogoodbye do sound oddly German, although I hear a Band Ohne Namen ballad remixed, didn't really hear the similarity in that Liquido track.

Speaking of rock bands, Enter Shikari seems to be the big one for the UK in 2007. Their concerts often end in ambulances being called, so that will attract all the young lads who like to show off their bruises.

I think music for British teenagers is so much a badge of identity, that predicting who they'll like is just like predicting fashion trends. It's all part of the tribal thing that seems to be more prevalent than ever in schools. When I was there (and that wasn't long ago) I didn't have to choose whether to be a chav or emo, and now if you're 14 and you don't fit into one or the other you'll probably get beaten up by both sides. It's like hippies and punks and mods and rockers, and yet I don't feel any of the revolutionary spirit that was supposedly surrounding those tribes. I don't think these kids are going to look back in 20 years nostalgically at being emo... or am I wrong? It all just seems very negative, hating themselves, hating other people. A lot could be read into it sociologically.

― Jessica P (Jessica P), Friday, 5 January 2007 23:39 (6 years ago) Permalink

There's plenty of HSM discussion on last years thread, for interested parties.

Frank, I love Jordan Pruitt. And I agree that she's a really great singer (and not just good at singing but good at framing and phrasing the lyrics, if that makes sense), but that some of the songwriting is not up to snuff. Fortunately, "Jump to the Rhythm", her worst written song in my opinion, is not written by the team (Robin Scoffield and Keith Thomas) that are writing the rest of her record. "Outside Looking In" and "Teenager" are. Give this girl some great songs and that could be an outstanding album.

― Greg Fanoe (JustFanoe), Friday, 5 January 2007 23:44 (6 years ago) Permalink

And by the way High School Musical 2 is coming out this year, from what I understand it rotates around a talent show at a local country club over summer vacation, and returns all of the 6 main cast members (and probably more too). And High School Musical 3 is out next year. I have my doubts they will be able to recapture the magic, but I'm certainly willing to give them a chance to.

― Greg Fanoe (JustFanoe), Friday, 5 January 2007 23:46 (6 years ago) Permalink

HGB have sold out the Cockpit up here, I think they have Gym Class Heroes and the adorably cobblers Plain White T's in support. Sub-tier emo on the march!

I have been a-scouting for the Jukebox, and have turfed up a fair amount of teenpop from Germany that I might get around to putting in here - none of it's wonderful, though.

― William Bloody Swygart (mrswygart), Saturday, 6 January 2007 00:12 (6 years ago) Permalink

Germany has a new Popstars girl group who are insanely dull, but seem to be doing quite well nonetheless. Their style is r'n'b and they're called Monrose, if you want to see the tragicness for yourself.

― Jessica P (Jessica P), Saturday, 6 January 2007 00:58 (6 years ago) Permalink

I think "Shame" is pretty good.

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Saturday, 6 January 2007 01:07 (6 years ago) Permalink

The video if anyone's interested:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYdc3-Kfu_Y

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Saturday, 6 January 2007 03:41 (6 years ago) Permalink

pop has forgotten a key First Principle ie "we dance to disco and we DON'T. LIKE. ROCK."

The pop music I like has never been so stupid as to say such things.

Personally, for non-sincerity-obsessed teenpop, I'd recommend that Lex maybe start with the Aquamarine and Darcy's Wild Life soundtracks.

Beyond that, this thread has already left me in the dust, after only three short days. If I'm this far behind now, where will I be come October?

Finally, has anybody listened to the Paula DeAnda album? Sounds as mediocre and forgettable and unexuberant and unbubblegum and fade-into-the-background-leaving-me-clueless-about-why-anybody-gives-a-flying-fuck as Ciara or Cassie or [fill in the blank] to me, but I'm willing to hear any reasonably intelligent arguments otherwise.

― xhuxk (xheddy), Saturday, 6 January 2007 17:02 (6 years ago) Permalink

[ps: I think maybe the blank-fill-in is Jojo, but I'm not positive.] [and I also probably heard a couple Ciara songs once I didn't hate.] [not that i hate paula deanda. she's OKAY. she might even be more interesting if she wasn't okay. even the lil wayne duet and the song called "good girl" seem so-what. and good girl and bad girl and good boy and bad boy songs are supposed to be good be definition!]

― xhuxk (xheddy), Saturday, 6 January 2007 17:17 (6 years ago) Permalink

i've only heard 'easy' by paula deanda but i LOVE it. "when i go shopping it's like having a gun" - !!!

isn't criticising cassie for not being bubblegum or exuberant a bit like, i dunno, criticising ashlee for not being restrained enough? i mean, in naming cassie and ciara you've basically named my the two popstars who've stood head and shoulders above everyone else in recent times, so i'm confused as to why they don't grab you. certainly what they're doing is interesting enough to be admired even if it's not your thing.

fwiw cassie does get bubblegum in places on her album - the album tracks are much gentler than the singles. 'what do u want' sounds like one of paris hilton's rockier numbers, and 'ditto' is charming and girlish.

it should have been obvious to all that my call for less sincerity is actually a call for less bloody guitars.

― lex pretend (lex pretend), Saturday, 6 January 2007 17:20 (6 years ago) Permalink

What do guitars have to do with sincerity? (And how are Cassie and Ciara not sincere?) (As for what I don't like about them, I think it mainly comes down to their vocals feel so held-back and reigned in. But I'd need to spend way more time with their music than their music seems to warrant to actually test said hypothesis.)

― xhuxk (xheddy), Saturday, 6 January 2007 17:24 (6 years ago) Permalink

(Then again, I like Paris Hilton and Brooke Hogan's albums, and it's not like those girls were born with booming majestic pipes either. So I'm not really sure what I'm getting at. For whatever it's worth, I've never cared for more than two minutes at a time about Beyonce, either. And I hated the one in TLC who whispered all the time, pretending it sounded sexy when it sounded nothing of the sort.)

(Fwiw, the teenpop album I've probably listened to most this week is Wild Orchid's debut album from, like, 1993 or thereabouts, featuring one Stacy Ferguson, which I found for $0.80 at a Half-Price Books in Houston last week. Their followup was good too, but my copy of that is in storgage apparently. At the time they seemed like not-quite-Latin-enough Latin freestyle, but now they seem a lot closer to the Latin freestyle era than this one. Or at least to the Seduction era.)

― xhuxk (xheddy), Saturday, 6 January 2007 17:32 (6 years ago) Permalink

ice-queen vocals which give nothing away (but secretly everything) are basically my favourite type of vocal! i love the way cassie not only conveys oceans of meaning despite being deliberately glacial and aloof, but precisely because she's so good at being glacial and aloof.

sincerity was a red herring i think. but comparing ashlee to britney - even when ashlee's being funny, singing about parties, the fact that she's doing it over instrumentation which owes more to heavy rock than any other genre, and in a voice which is very keen to emphasise how much genuine emotion it sings with...kind of puts her on the earnest side of things. whereas britney, even when she was singing about intense emotion, did it with...froth, and plastic, such that people sneered that she didn't know what she was singing about.

― lex pretend (lex pretend), Saturday, 6 January 2007 17:40 (6 years ago) Permalink

xp (& I'm not saying that several people, on rolling teenpop threads and elsewhere, haven't provided intelligent reasons about why one might give a flying fuck about Cassieciarajojo. Because they have; they just haven't managed to make me give a fuck.) (So maybe I'm just saying, if you like those singers, Paula's for you!)

― xhuxk (xheddy), Saturday, 6 January 2007 17:42 (6 years ago) Permalink

what kind of music does brooke hogan make? all i know about her is seeing her on go fug yourself wearing one of the most hideous outfits i have ever ever seen ever (satin formal shorts!!!)

― lex pretend (lex pretend), Saturday, 6 January 2007 17:49 (6 years ago) Permalink

She was discussed to some extent on the previous year's teenpop thread; you oughta do a search. Suffice it to say, though, that she sounds a lot more disco than most of the Cassie and Ciara I've heard. (But then, tons of "rock" sounds more disco than them, too.)

― xhuxk (xheddy), Saturday, 6 January 2007 17:55 (6 years ago) Permalink

I think the whole tradition of bubblegum rock points to the fallacy of any notion of the guitar as a solid sincerity signifier.

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Saturday, 6 January 2007 18:11 (6 years ago) Permalink

And I don't think teenpop that's more rock-oriented is inherently less modern than teenpop that's more electronic, if that's the criticism.

I also certainly think rock music can be great dance music.

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Saturday, 6 January 2007 18:19 (6 years ago) Permalink

LESS TALK MORE ROCK AND/OR DRUM MACHINES

― Haikunym (Haikunym), Saturday, 6 January 2007 19:15 (6 years ago) Permalink

On the Brit/guitars note I have to come back to the last McFly single Friday Night (awful Night At The Museum tie-in video) which has a delicious chorus moving to a more electro influence amongst their 60's guitar schtick. And Lil Chris has mastered the art of the 'ironic video to excuse the fact that this is actually pop music' for Gettin' Enough (if you have yet to see, think 80s sexual health PSA style).

And I think it may not technically be teenpop (since no doubt they'll bill it as mature etc) but the new Sophie Ellis-Bextor song 'Catch You' (Cathy Dennis) is a) absolutely brilliant and b) something I could well see Hilary sliding towards after 'Play With Fire' direction-wise.

― Abby (abby mcdonald), Saturday, 6 January 2007 23:12 (6 years ago) Permalink

Wow, DIABETIC TEENPOP. The Pump Girls! I thought this was a brilliant original idea once upon a time.

― nameom (nameom), Saturday, 6 January 2007 23:55 (6 years ago) Permalink

Ooh new Sophie Ellis-Bextor!

i am one of her few fans around here I think.

― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Sunday, 7 January 2007 02:40 (6 years ago) Permalink

Cool song.

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Sunday, 7 January 2007 04:09 (6 years ago) Permalink

Ooh new Sophie Ellis-Bextor!

not entirely convinced yet. the song itself is great and sophie too. but her voice doesn't really seem to suit the girls aloud-like production.

― (jg) ((jg)), Sunday, 7 January 2007 11:13 (6 years ago) Permalink

Listening to Jessie Daniels's debut from 2006, Xtian rock a la Kelly confessional. Which is making me wonder...how much of modern confessional might be coming from Xtian rock? I have no idea whatsoever because my knowledge of it is about zilch, but Jessie's track 1/track 2 (basically "Since U Been Gone" into "Behind These Hazel Eyes" [verse, anyway]) made me think, is she feeding off Kelly or vice versa? Is there a reciprocal relationship I'm missing here? I also imagine the homeschool types (Aly/AJ etc.) probably listen to a lot of Christian rock.

Jessie's got a little conflict, but she's not going far enough with it, but there's a glimmer of something interesting: "Don't wanna leave it up to my imagination/ Everybody's got their own interpretation/ Maybe I don't deserve an explanation/ I can't tell/ Is it real or true/ What I heard about you/ That you love me"

Jessie has commentary on every song, here's what she says about that one, "What I Hear": "It's hard to believe that God loves us as much as he does. People tried to tell me over and over again of the depth of God's love but I found it hard to accept for a while even though I truly wanted to. What you first hear about a relationship with God just seems too perfect. However, in the end, he really is everything they said and more."

And hey, she has a (slight) sense of humor in her earnestness: "A jerk ex-boyfriend or Satan = two people you don't want to see ever again but somehow always seem to resurface. Whether it's feelings for an old boyfriend or the temptation of sin -- It's nothing that I want to deal with anymore." Yo, temptation of sin = feelings for an ex-boyfriend maybe? That would be a great song! She could out-"Chemicals React" Aly and AJ!

Last thing: she has an ambiguous rapture song, almost as good as "Toodaloo Earth" by Cali.

― nameom (nameom), Sunday, 7 January 2007 19:27 (6 years ago) Permalink

it should have been obvious to all that my call for less sincerity is actually a call for less bloody guitars.

But upthread you said that your call for fewer guitars was really a call for less earnestness. But anyway, calls by the Lex for less earnestness aren't necessarily a hundred percent in earnest. Also, earnestness and bubblegum are not mutually exclusive (viz. Cowsills, Melanie, Friend And Lover, JoJo, Jonas Brothers, etc.). Also, as we've been saying and as you've been not noticing, teenpop is swamped in non-Ashlees and non-Lindsays.

Personally, I think Ashlee might do a better version of "Stars Are Blind" - or anyway, an interesting one, since her voice is darker than Paris's and so rubs differently against island beats. She recorded a charming reggae number, "Fall In Love Me," which was only available in Japan, as far as I know, but it's a sweet beach song. The accompaniment was over-clumsy (don't know if it was Shanks; dance tends not to be his forté), but the song's got a nice feel anyway.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Sunday, 7 January 2007 23:32 (6 years ago) Permalink

I failed to be bored by Monrose. I mean, the song would be way better if this were 1988 and the song had fierce freestyle beats and Latina singers, but for OK turn-it-out r&b-leaning pop, it's not bad, got melody, chord changes where I want 'em, etc.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Sunday, 7 January 2007 23:41 (6 years ago) Permalink

Dave, I listened to a LOT (a whole lot) of Christian Rock from 1996-2000 (when I was in my high school's youth group) and, at least in that time period, there wasn't really any interesting music coming in from that scene at all. There were huge controversies at the time about teen artists coming on to the scene (in the wake of Spices, Britney, et al) trying to appeal to the youth. Was it right, etc, etc. As boring as similar arguments in pop music, except that if you're gonna pitch a fit about youth and lack of legitimacy in music, it makes sense to do it in a genre where containing spiritual insights in every song is necessary for survival. The only Christian artist who I can still listen to is Amy Grant, whose Christian work is truly lovely, even if her secular work is sub par.

― Greg Fanoe (JustFanoe), Monday, 8 January 2007 16:03 (6 years ago) Permalink

That time period was my only exposure to it, too (I never really listened to it but kids I knew really liked it), and my impression was that it was closer to...I dunno, stuff that would cross over to secular radio around that time, like P.O.D. or Creed (or were they later?), or the kind of stuff they'd make fun of on South Park. The Christian artists that Disney supports, on tour and on the incubator feature, are predominantly teenpop acts like Katelyn Tarver (who herself doesn't SOUND particularly Christian in her lyrics but mostly gets airplay on Christian stations). Jessie Daniels is sort of an exception (she was incubated last year sometime).

― nameom (nameom), Monday, 8 January 2007 22:53 (6 years ago) Permalink

Paula DeAnda toes the line between sweet and needy, which I find kind of interesting.

― jaymc (jaymc), Monday, 8 January 2007 23:12 (6 years ago) Permalink

Things mentioned so far that I checked out online yesterday:

- a couple of Paula DeAnda singles: OK, a bit bland. Neither were as good as "Easy"

- Jordan Pruitt's MySpace songs: the three I hadn't heard before were all good (even the "We Are Family" cover was interesting, until it suddenly cut out after about 1'30"). Have now added her forthcoming LP to my Amazon wishlist. I see that "Jump To The Rhythm" is also on the soundtrack CD of the Jump In! Disney movie that Jessica mentioned upthread; the CD is out today in the US. Apart from Pruitt, Corbin Bleu and Jeannie Ortega, I don't recognise any of the artists. Anyone?

- Hellogoodbye: "Here In Your Arms" was cute, but not sure I ever want to hear it again

- Monrose: zzzzz

― Jeff W (zebedee), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 13:44 (6 years ago) Permalink

T-Squad is a (formerly Christian?) up and coming Hollywood Records band often promoted on tommy2.net. I think they used to be called The Truth Squad

Keke Palmer is an actress in the movie. She was in Akeelah and the Bee

Drew Seeley wrote most of the songs for and did most of Zac Efron's singing on High School Musical

Those were the other 3 I recognized, but maybe someobdy else can fill in the rest. Presumably they are all just random filler "up-and-coming" Hollywood Record artists that Diz wanted to promote.

― Greg Fanoe (JustFanoe), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 13:50 (6 years ago) Permalink

I was talking about German stuff, earlier, and alongside Monrose I was also thinking of LaFee, who was something of a thorn in my side Jukebox-wise last year - she had a few hits in Germany, but they were all kind of rubbish. Her latest, 'Mitternacht', is definitely an improvement, but to what extent is a moot point. As it whether it's any good or not. Guitars all very nice and crunchy, like a slower, more deliberate (no, really), less melodramatic Evanescence.

I was also kind of thinking of it as the only country where Us5 have ever had any success, or are likely to. Though if they're big in Germany, then it'll usually follow that Austria laps them up too...

For some reason, in terms of UK stuff to put on here, the first thing I thought of was Th e View's 'Same Jeans'. They're floppy-fringed teenagers from Dundee, who write songs about having worn the same jeans for four days in a row. Oh, and they've got guitars. I dunno, I can just imagine lots of the other people mentioned on the thread singing this song, given that it's a bit simple and has a kind of silly sped-up bit tacked on the end. I don't like it much, but it feels like it might fit on here, somehow.

― William Bloody Swygart (mrswygart), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 14:27 (6 years ago) Permalink

'Same Jeans' is on the Radio 2 playlist - currently the B list. Even Terry Wogan said he loved it (today, or yesterday).

― Jeff W (zebedee), Tuesday, 9 January 2007 14:55 (6 years ago) Permalink

Eh, probably cos it's got a harmonica on it.

Right, er, JC Chasez's 'Until Yesterday' - how long has this been knocking about, exactly? Was it discussed on the last thread? I only started checking Mediabase around the end of December, and was somewhat excited to see it turn up on their Pop Taking Off lists. Has it just not made any kind of ripples or somesuch? All the stuff on YouTube seems to have been put on about 3 months ago. It's quite good, anyhow.

Also - the new Relient K single. Have they always been The Click Five in disguise?

― William Bloody Swygart (mrswygart), Wednesday, 10 January 2007 00:02 (6 years ago) Permalink

T-Squad:

The Truth Squad is a vocal and dance hip hop/pop- â€œsuper groupâ€ -comprised of four uniquely talented young performers that individually have mad skills in dance, electric vocals, and an unbelievable presence. They also share a unifying desire to fight lies and expose dishonesty. Pledging to stick together through thick and thin, the Truth Squad has set out to show how friendship and trust are the keys to a better world and best of all, they do it all through phat beats and tight moves.

They all have acting/dance resumes, one of them was a dancer in a Missy video (forget which one) and "Hollaback Girl."

Q: If you could change something about the pop scene today, what would it be?

Miki: Not to make it as provocative as it is and to make it more kid friendly. That's maybe one thing to change.

BOOOOOOORING.

― nameom (nameom), Wednesday, 10 January 2007 01:08 (6 years ago) Permalink

I assume Good Charlotte still count as teenpop. The only time I saw them was when they were touring behind the Young and the Hopeless. I was unimpressed. The following act (New Found Glory) had much more passion, and G.C. had something very 'precious' occurring with them. Lyrics like: "Girls don't like boys, girls like cars and money" really turned me off. Then they released the follow up: Chronicles of Life + Death, which sounded like they had been listening to a ton of Evanescence (which is to say, in my mind, very melodramatic, heavy).

So, just listened to their single off the new album, "The River." Which sounds like they've evolved into P!ATD and MCR. Benji's vocals are completely inscrutable for me compared to Young and the Hopeless. I don't want to sound like G.C. can't do anything right, and in fact, the song is pretty good - well-produced, a nice amount of angst. Yet it's hard to take G.C. seriously.

I know people on the AltPress forums are going to hate G.C., just because of who they are. [Random Mosher from the AltPress forums: "Stick your head in a tub of water for 10 minutes please. Good Charlotte is the worst, worst, worst, candy coated, cookie cutter, Tiger Beat, Poser, TRL babies, Pop-f*gs, scene killing *ssh*l*s I have ever heard or scene...EVER!"] And certainly, there is something inauthentic about the style change. Yet I can't ignore the fact that they sound better, more cohesive, on the single than they ever did. I only wish they had retained some of the spunk from Young + Hopeless, instead of going for the easy push buttons of their audience.

"As I walk through the valley
of the shadow of LA
The footsteps that were next to me
have gone their separate ways
I've seen enough now
to know that beautiful things
don't always stay that way"

Didn't "Welcome to the Jungle" do the same sentiment, but make it fun?

"Baptized in the river (on my own)
Baptized in the river (on my own)
I wanna be delivered"

Thursday does the religious-social intersection so much more convincingly, too. (Sugar in Sacrament).

― Mordechai Shinefield (Mordy), Wednesday, 10 January 2007 08:26 (6 years ago) Permalink

Link, btw: http://www.myspace.com/goodcharlotte
Also, to an AltPress discussion about it: http://www.altpress.com/moshpit/viewmessages.cfm?Forum=18&Topic=6881&srow=1&erow=15
Also, I reserve the right to completely change my mind numerous times as I continue to listen to it.

― Mordechai Shinefield (Mordy), Wednesday, 10 January 2007 08:35 (6 years ago) Permalink

The two mixes/remixes of that Good Charlotte song are appealing but the original mix is kind of 'whatever.' I like the chorus, though.

What Mordechai said about the clunkiness of Good Charlotte has always been something that bothered me. They're good for about three lines and then say something so cringeworthy I have to change the channel or whatever.

...wait, hang on, I was talking about 'Keep Your Hands Off My Girl,' I didn't realised 'The River' was the single. It's alright, it sounds like Funeral For A Friend crossed with Nightmare Of You.

Good Charlotte are sort of the in-laws of teenpop, I would've thought, since aside from the Hilary Duff connection (are they still going out?) they don't quite fit into the genre and are vaguely hated by it, despite having obvious similarities to a lot of teenpop.

This may be a really stupid question but I heard some Aimee Allen the other day- teenpop, yes?

― Hazel Robinson (Moggy), Thursday, 11 January 2007 12:15 (6 years ago) Permalink

Have you guys heard "Got Off Easy" on the Lillix album? Hopefully, the album will finally come out (there was some problem with their record label, I think) and maybe they'll do a video for that one too.

― Tim Ellison = NUMBER ONE ADVOCATE OF YOU-KNOW-WHAT ON NU-ILX!!! (Tim Ellison), Thursday, 11 January 2007 19:58 (6 years ago) Permalink

So apparently The N has a show called "Instant Star" that's like Hannah Montana conceptually (from like a year or two ago, proto-Hannah maybe?) about a big star with a big voice. "24 Hours" (original tune) and Garbage's "Stupid Girl." Anyone watch this thing?

― nameom (nameom), Friday, 12 January 2007 03:23 (6 years ago) Permalink

I used to watch Instant Star. It's very DeGrassi'ish. And it lacked the sweet heart that Hannah Montana had. It was basically about her hooking up with her ex-Boy Band producer, and fighting with her sister over who was cooler. Though I do remember there were a couple songs I enjoyed - but I wasn't posting on Rolling Teenpop at the time. It's kind of a darker Hannah Montana, much like everything on TheN seems to be darker than Disney. (Except Radio Free Roscoe, which was so very cute!)

― Mordechai Shinefield (Mordy), Friday, 12 January 2007 03:42 (6 years ago) Permalink

Here was my favorite song from that show:
"Waste My Time" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWu2p3v2pos).
It starts slow, almost hits an Avril Lavigneish ("Losing Grip") tone, but then her voice has this very druggy, drawn out drone. "Waste my tiiiiiime." Almost Courtney Love'ish?

― Mordechai Shinefield (Mordy), Friday, 12 January 2007 03:51 (6 years ago) Permalink

Only Radio Free Roscoe I ever saw was the episode featuring Skye Sweetnam as the BAD GIRL from out of town who makes a crazy video project (kinda like her homemade PR vids?) and writes ANARCHY RULES on the wall. (She also sings the theme song.)

― nameom (nameom), Friday, 12 January 2007 04:00 (6 years ago) Permalink

Also, never heard Aimee Allen before just now, but why hasn't John Mayer covered this song?? T-shirt: "I overslept the revolution"

― nameom (nameom), Friday, 12 January 2007 04:09 (6 years ago) Permalink

I only knew one actual teenager who watched The N. I imagine it's more prevalent in Canada. But when my wife and I were dating, we used to watch The N all the time on the dormitory television. Radio Free Roscoe, Daria and Degrassi. I think I watched Instant Star on my own.

Anyway, speaking of Charlotte, she says that 'Waste My Time' reminds her of Moby + Gwen Stefani doing 'South Side.' I hear what she means, in terms of Alexz Johnson's voice sounding like Gwen's in the chorus.

― Mordechai Shinefield (Mordy), Friday, 12 January 2007 04:19 (6 years ago) Permalink

I've watched Instant Star before, but like all the original programming on The N it doesn't really do anything for me. I didn't particuarly like any of the music although I admittedly heard little. The main reason why I have disliked The N shows is their over earnestness and seriousness, but if Mordechai says that RFR is cute then maybe I'll check it out. Then again, maybe I'll just stick to "Unfabulous", "Darcy's Wild Life", et al.

― Greg Fanoe (JustFanoe), Friday, 12 January 2007 04:41 (6 years ago) Permalink

My daughter likes The N just fine.

― Haikunym (Haikunym), Friday, 12 January 2007 05:21 (6 years ago) Permalink

Greg, RFR is gonna be really easy to find. Apparently all the episodes are up on Youtube. It's less saccharine than Disney, but sweeter than DeGrassi. We used to love it.

― Mordechai Shinefield (Mordy), Friday, 12 January 2007 06:54 (6 years ago) Permalink

I saw some of Instant Star on Viva (Swiss music channel) this summer and thought it was thoroughly enjoyable, if completely stupid. It also has a great message regarding someone who wants to be a serious'n'credible rockstar having to take a lot of advice from an ex-boyband member and understand that you don't have to be Sonic Youth to make good music etc.

Most of the music on the first series (which is all I've seen any of) is ace, especially '24 Hours.' Some of it is hilarious. There's a fourth series coming out soon I believe.

― Hazel Robinson (Moggy), Friday, 12 January 2007 08:16 (6 years ago) Permalink

Drew Seeley wrote most of the songs for and did most of Zac Efron's singing on High School Musical

Not really; he only wrote "Getcha Head In The Game," which was more a group song with (if I recall correctly) Corbin Bleu rather than Zac leading the singing; and the version that got airplay was B5's. Seeley did sing on all the Zac Efron songs, but what I read in Billborad was that Zac sang when the register was low enough but Drew did all the high register lines. So Drew's the one who's soaring and flying. Drew rather than Zac performed at the HSM show in Madison Square Garden.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Friday, 12 January 2007 22:46 (6 years ago) Permalink

But while we're on the subject:

Matthew Gerrard and Robbie Nevil: s/d and c/d.

They often write as a team, with Gerrard usually handling the production. They did two of the most popular tracks from HSM ("Start of Something New" and "We're All In This Together") and a whole bunch of the tracks on Cheetah Girls 2, which I saw last night. The thing is, their tracks are usually the ones I like least. My favorite song on HSM is "Breaking Free" by Jamie Houston, the two somewhat good Cheetah Girls singles are "Strut" and "Amigas Cheetahs," also by Jamie Houston. "Dance With Me" is on the soundtrack but performed by Drew Seeley and Belinda and written by Ray Cham (who cowrote "Getcha Head In The Game") and Charlene Licera, is heard in the film as a track that Sabrina and the teen count dance to.

But Gerrard actually has one of the better tracks (and one of the not better tracks) on the Vanessa Hudgens album, a good, somewhat dark-sounding dance track appropriately called "Let's Dance," and he co-wrote "The High Road," which is a nice (though below average for that very good album) track on JoJo's The High Road. (Crucial credit on that track, however, might be Jonathon "J.R." Rotem, who wrote and produced LeToya's really good "All Eyes On Me.") Gerrard also cowrote (w/ Avril Lavigne) Kelly Clarkson's "Breakaway," which is a good song despite having a line about spreading one's wings (but again overshadowed by other stuff on the album). Also wrote an unheard-by-me Lindsay Lohan track on the soundtrack to Confessions of a Teen Drama Queen, and one of my least favorite Hilary Duff singles ("Why Not"). He has something to do with the Bratz. And a lot more, I'm sure. Robbie Nevil had success as a singer in the late '80s, early '90s.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Friday, 12 January 2007 23:16 (6 years ago) Permalink

Speaking of Cheetah Girls 2, I don't think any Cheetah is a great singer, but really they're not godawful, just dull. And "Strut" and "Amigas Cheetahs" are good r&b/Latin tracks, quite serviceable. The script seemed far clumsier than High School Musical's not-so-unclumsy script, just no deftness in its storytelling (I know it's trying to be comprehensible to eight-year-olds, but lots of books and movies also make themselves comprehensible to eight-year-olds without constant exposition in the dialogue); the dancing and colors were quite wonderful and compensated somewhat for the plot. Also, there was simply nothing as compelling as the teen culture subclashes in High School Musical, and the Cheetah climax - We're Singing Onstage When It Looked Like We Weren't Going To Be Allowed To - is empty in comparison to "Breaking Free" in HSM, which felt electric and served as a revelation to Troy's and Gabriela's friends: Like, We Get It, This Is What It's About, And These Two Are Actually Good! I thought Raven-Symoné was believably bossy as the bossy Galleria, and Sabrina Bryan was heartwarmingly warm being sweet, insecure, and lovestruck. And I managed to cry during the reconciliation scene between the Adrienne Bailon character and her mom's fiancé. But I have a talent for crying at movies. I thought the onscreen rapport between Adrienne and Raven-Symoné was about as good as the offscreen rapport. Kiely just seemed kinda there and nothing more. Guest singer Belinda Peregrin, who could sing the Cheetahs off the stage if she wanted to, didn't have much to do other than to look slightly perturbed by her domineering stage mom's machinations and to look pretty and guilty (and pretty guilty) by what she was doing to the Cheetahs. It's not a good movie, but I didn't regret the time spent watching it, and as I said, the colors and dancing are their own message.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Saturday, 13 January 2007 00:17 (6 years ago) Permalink

I rather don't like "Let's Dance" OR "Never Underestimate A Girl", so that makes me agree with you even more. On the subject of Vanessa, I still found this to be the best of the direct Disney tie in actress albums of last year. My faves on V are "Say OK" by Anthor Birgisson/Savan Kotecha and "Let Go" by Bojanic/Hooper/Levan, whoever they are. The power ballad "Afraid" is also rather nice.

I wasn't a fan of Cheetah Girls 2 either, Frank. Still, it was better than the original.

― Greg Fanoe (JustFanoe), Saturday, 13 January 2007 01:54 (6 years ago) Permalink

Jamie Huston's other credit I know of off the top of my head is on the Lucy Woodward album, but that didn't make a huge impression. If he wrote the song "Drama Queen," that's probably a tally in favor. Great (d-u-m) mid-song "rap" breakdown:

Life is a work of art/ You gotta paint it colorful,
Can make it anything U want/ Don't have to stick to any rules
You don't need a high IQ/ To succeed in what you do,
You just gotta have no doubt/ Just believe in yourself.

(Nope, Gerrard wrote a different one. Jamie Huston is on this soundtrack, too, wrote "A Day in the Life" which I haven't heard)

― nameom (nameom), Saturday, 13 January 2007 02:04 (6 years ago) Permalink

Then again, with all the anti-Gerrard talk in here, Gerrard/Nevil did write some really good Hannah Montana songs: "The Best of Both Worlds" and "Who Said". They also wrote the mediocre-to-average "The Other Side Of Me".

And Jamie Houston wrote "Pumpin Up The Party" which is almost inarguably her worst song (at least, as far as I am concerned). So Hannah Montana turns the Disney world UPSIDE DOWN.

Then again "J. Lurie" (acc to Allmusic) has cowriting credit on my two favorite Hannah Montana songs, "I Got Nerve" and "This Is The Life". F. Lurie is cowriter on "If We Were a Movie"

Whoops, I take back what I said about V above. It's a good album, but I definitely like the Hannah Montana OST more. Neither are top 20 albums of the year.

― Greg Fanoe (JustFanoe), Saturday, 13 January 2007 04:00 (6 years ago) Permalink

Frank did you see Camp?

― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Saturday, 13 January 2007 05:06 (6 years ago) Permalink

Just watched the "Drama Queen" vid for the first time...basically these different Lindsay characters are auditioning for some school production (proto-HSM), and each character takes the mic from the other ones (slinky red dress, trendy track suit and baseball cap, etc.) and there's a great moment where LL (in track suit, doing the sing/speak part) cracks up during the "Just believe in yourself" line, tosses the mic on the ground, and walks away. Judges' reaction: WTF?

― nameom (nameom), Saturday, 13 January 2007 15:03 (6 years ago) Permalink

(Wait, that's more like a trucker's hat, not baseball cap.)

A few recent articles about the HSM concert tour: One pretty good on Tom Breihan's VV blog, one not so good from NYT.

― nameom (nameom), Saturday, 13 January 2007 21:12 (6 years ago) Permalink

Continuing on w/ the Diz songwriter theme, watched Jump In tonight, it was pretty good.

"Jump to the Rhythm" was by Robyn Johnson and Frank Fitzpatrick, not her normal songwriters, and nobody I've heard of.

Jamie Houston did "Vertical" which is kinda mediocre.

Gerrard/Nevil did "Push It to the Limit" and that Keke Palmer song which name I forget, which are the two pretty good songs from the movie. I'm starting to kinda like "Push It to the Limit", after initially hating it.

On another note, I'm not digging Ashley Tisdale's singles very much. "He Said, She Said" is OK, but I'm not into "Be Good To Me" (and does anybody know the songwriters on that?). Course I might change my mind on this, but neither is really grabbing me.

― Greg Fanoe (JustFanoe), Sunday, 14 January 2007 04:47 (6 years ago) Permalink

Definitely JoJo, how old is she now anyway?

― Luke Slater (Alan Bean), Sunday, 14 January 2007 10:57 (6 years ago) Permalink

Proof that teenpop has too many guitars: Rose Falcon and dad Billy on stage with the Mulch Brothers and Richie Sambora.

― nameom (nameom), Sunday, 14 January 2007 17:24 (6 years ago) Permalink

Also got B.G. Tha Heart of tha Streetz Vol. 1. As with the other two CDs, I'll report on whether the vocalist on this one most resembles Lacey or Marit.

This is from one of Frank's posts on last year's thread. Just mentioning it because according to my Pandora station, it counts as teenpop! Updating it today, they've added a lot of artists recently. They even have Leslie Carter's "Like Wow!" and Daphne & Celeste's "U.G.L.Y." but no other D&C.

― nameom (nameom), Sunday, 14 January 2007 20:05 (6 years ago) Permalink

I'm gonna stick up for Duff's "Why Not," which is probably my favorite Duff song.

Does Bextor count as teen pop, or is she now artpop like Kylie?

― Matthew E. Armstrong (gensu3k1), Sunday, 14 January 2007 20:17 (6 years ago) Permalink

Another tally in Gerrard's favor, Hayden Paniettiere's good track, "Your New Girlfriend," from Girl Next. That's Britney's sis Jamie in the photo montage, no teenpop (music) career to speak of yet except the theme song.

Aliana Lohan released her Xmas album while ILM was down and it's...pretty strange. Video for second-most-resoundingly-"kicked"-on-RD-last-year single (don't know which was #1) "Christmas Magic" is actually kinda disturbing, watch for the weirdly sinister reindeer and snowman at the end that coulda been stand-ins for the dog-suit guy in The Shining. More interesting/WTF is "Lohan Holiday" feat. Lindsay somewhere in the background (I think?), available here.

― nameom (nameom), Sunday, 14 January 2007 20:39 (6 years ago) Permalink

Apart from "Lohan Holiday" that Ali Lohan album is absolutely horrible. And even "Lohan Holiday" isn't so great, though it is pretty good, at least it has a discernable melodic hook. Lyrics are a real headscratcher though. Wasn't it "I Like Christmas" that got booted from RD, though? I might be misremembering.

I listened to/reviewed a whole boatload of teenpop Christmas songs this December. Here are links to some of the more notable ones:

Hilary Duff - "Santa Claus Lane"; Hilary Duff - "What Christmas Should Be"; Christina Aguilera - "Christmas Time"; Mariah Carey - "Miss You Most at Christmastime" (presumably you all know "All I Want For Christmas Is You" already, so I won't take the time to get a link); Cheetah Girls - "Five More Days Til Christmas" (This is the best Cheetahs songs that I've heard - er, sorry about the sound quality though); 'N Sync - "Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays"; S Club 7 - "Perfect Christmas". Those are all the songs that I reviewed that are worth listening that I could find on YouTube.

I wasn't a big fan of Hannah Montana's "Rocking Around the Christmas Tree", as I found that her voice didn't work well for the rocking tune they were going for. Maybe after she matures and her voice fills out more she'll be able to pull that stuff off, but right now it didn't sound great. Jordan Pruitt had a Christmas song too, and it was a really good little tune called "Santa Don't Stop", but for the life of me I can't find a free version for listening anywhere online.

― Greg Fanoe (JustFanoe), Sunday, 14 January 2007 21:56 (6 years ago) Permalink

Worth mentioning on Ali Lohan's album is a song called "Santa's Reindeer Ride", a cover of an early Amy Grant tune. Apparently, what they did is they just took the old Amy Grant song and digitally added Ali's vocals to it. Bleh, not that great of a song to start with, and Ali's vocals are way worse than Amy Grant's so the final result is not pretty.

― Greg Fanoe (JustFanoe), Sunday, 14 January 2007 22:00 (6 years ago) Permalink

Newest Amy Diamond single from her Still Me, Still Now album is "It Can Only Get Better". Gone is the reggae beat, this is a fairly generic sounding pop ballad backed with piano. The lyrics are still way too old for her, and she's still a great singer though. It's a really pretty song and I like it a lot. Kinda makes me tear up a bit. Can't help but think that "Don't Lose Any Sleep Over You" or "That's Life" would be better choices for a single though. Get this album a US release stat.

― Greg Fanoe (JustFanoe), Sunday, 14 January 2007 22:06 (6 years ago) Permalink

Finally got to hear some of Vanessa Hudgens music. It's well produced, but I can't say I hear the same personality in it as I do in Duff, Aly & AJ, Hannah, or even Tisdale. And there seems to be an attempt to sell her in two directions at the same time - Blender used the word "sultry" to describe her, qualifying it moments after by explaining that she's 18. That fits into the Britney, Christina Disney paradigm - where that sexual discovery/playfulness is apart of the draw (like in Vanessa's "Come Back to Me"). The second is what HSM is, and what Vanessa's songs on HSM are - innocent, romantic, highschoolish. The double selling is odd - I feel really ambiguous about her, while Tisdale with weaker tracks I find interesting.

Anyway: Was this album in production during HSM? And is it a Disney album? Who is writing the songs? I'm curious if this is a product of her (her manager, whatever) impetus V. the Disney machine's. Obviously for each of these Disney stars there's a point where they have to distinguish themselves from Disney - but I hadn't heard anything about Hudgens before HSM, so this sudden departure from the script feels... well... scripted.

― Mordechai Shinefield (Mordy), Monday, 15 January 2007 04:48 (6 years ago) Permalink

Can't say that I'm feeling anything sultry in Vanessa Hudgens. I'm coming to like "Come Back To Me" more; but her small voice is just kinda small (rather than expressively small à la Robyn or Hilary); there's a potential whine or wail that could take her in the direction of Angel Sabatar of the (definitely sultry) Cover Girls, once the whine/wail gets deeper and richer. That's probably too much to hope for. The album is likable second-rank r&b; on Disney-affiliated Hollywood Records. The songs I like are "Come Back To Me" (written and produced by Antonina Armato and Tim James, known in these parts as Aly & AJ's collaborators on "Chemicals React," "Shine," "Greatest Time Of Year," and "Not This Year," which is interesting because those are all arranged with power chords, not with "Come Back To Me"'s r&b beats; the pair also worked with Hoku back in 2000); "Let Go" and "Rather Be With You" (by Andrew Bojanic and Liz Hooper, a couple of protegés of the Matrix, transplanted Aussies, produce under the moniker Wizardz of Oz; also involved in Christian music); "Say OK" (by Anthor* Birgisson Savan Kotecha, who work for Maratone (Max Martin's production outfit)), "Let's Dance" (by Jonas Jeberg, Bridget Benenate, Matthew Gerard, with Gerrard on the dials; he's worked with Benenate a lot); and "Whatever Will Be" (by Carl Falk, Savan Kotecha, Jake Shultze). Leah Haywood and Dan James, who worked with Aly & A.J. on the great "Rush," have material here that's disappointing (Shelly Pelkin who cowrote Ashlee's great "Love Me For Me," had a hand in one of those)).

*Also seen him spelled "Arnthor."

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Monday, 15 January 2007 06:54 (6 years ago) Permalink

I figure one of you pedos will get a hard-on over this.

Kidz Bop - "Chicken Noodle Soup"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bjr-bP-sSgs

(I jest. It's cute.)

― The Reverend Rodney J. Greene is false metal! (R. J. Greene), Monday, 15 January 2007 07:01 (6 years ago) Permalink

Actually like the two Aliana Lohan tracks I've heard, "Lohan Christmas" and "Christmas Magic," though both sound Adult Contemporary as of 30 years ago rather than what's been marketed recently as teenpop, and Aliana's phrasing doesn't quite sound American, which is strange. I don't really have an opinion of her voice, beyond that.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Monday, 15 January 2007 07:02 (6 years ago) Permalink

I was using "sultry" only to show how she's being perceived - I agree with you that she doesn't come off as particularly sultry (assuming that the adjective can describe a way you use your voice -- considering I'm listening to Donna Summer right now: Love to Love You Baby is sultry). But I think she's trying to play in a certain way that has you describe it as "likable second-rank r&b" where I don't think you'd ever call Aly & AJ that (despite the similar producers). Or to put in better words, my sister loves Aly + AJ, but I don't think she'd get Hudgens. One of my old roommates, who loved r&b (second-rank or otherwise, he wasn't particular about the quality), would love Hudgens, but wouldn't get Aly + AJ.

― Mordechai Shinefield (Mordy), Monday, 15 January 2007 07:15 (6 years ago) Permalink

Btw: When I make that distinction between Aly/AJ and Hudgens, I'm referring to album-Hudgens, not HSM-Hudgens (if that wasn't clear).

Also, Frank, rereading your initial post in this thread (looking for a possible comment on Hudgens) I noticed you said: "Teen newbie Taylor Swift is on the country stations with teen confessional sounds and concerns and may have the talent to match Aly & A.J. if not Ashlee (yet)."

What I heard from Swift makes this statement really confusing. Obviously you aren't comparing styles, or genres (or even a vocal comparison)... is it just the confessional style?

― Mordechai Shinefield (Mordy), Monday, 15 January 2007 07:19 (6 years ago) Permalink

Tim, I haven't seen Camp.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Monday, 15 January 2007 07:28 (6 years ago) Permalink

FWIW I've listened to "Lohan Holiday" about ten or fifteen times today, just bought the album, too.

Now that you mention it, her voice strikes me as almost having some of Amy Diamond's phrasing/affectation, the obvious difference being that Ali's way way more subdued (but not bad). I just can't imagine what the general idea behind this production was, since it doesn't seem to be in conversation with any recent music, teenpop or otherwise (maybe background music in a Hallmark commercial, but I bet even Hallmark's moved on to indie rock by now). Do keyboards even have those synth presets anymore? Ditto the costumes in that video...were those all lying around in some wardrobe closet somewhere near the shoot, or did someone actually design them?

(It was "I Like Christmas" that got kicked, can't find the number one most hated of the year yet.)

― nameom (nameom), Monday, 15 January 2007 07:30 (6 years ago) Permalink

Mordechai, check out "A Place in This World," which has an almost 100% teen confessional chorus. Pretty sure the chord progression is identical to "Behind These Hazel Eyes" (Frank first pointed this out).

― nameom (nameom), Monday, 15 January 2007 07:34 (6 years ago) Permalink

It's got the same tension as an Aly and AJ track, too, plays around with resolving to major with the emphasis on the relative minor (vi-IV-I(/wind at back marker)-V). Difference being that Aly and AJ would never resolve to the major root in the verse (as Taylor does, and the mood lightens up), they'd go right back to the relative minor and keep the tension bubbling under the surface.

― nameom (nameom), Monday, 15 January 2007 07:47 (6 years ago) Permalink

Thanks - I can completely hear the confessional thing in A Place In This World. I'm not sure I hear the same kind of thing in Aly + AJ, but I do hear it in Clarkson, or Ashlee. That said, the rest I've heard of the album seems to be a willful evocation of Tim McGraw (as the song overtly points out). Thing about Aly and AJ is I don't hear confessional in their music - I'm sure it could be pointed out, but that's not what I'm left with. I'm left with breathless articulation - not self-reflective.

― Mordechai Shinefield (Mordy), Monday, 15 January 2007 07:50 (6 years ago) Permalink

xpost

Mordy - Taylor does softer rock than Ashlee or Aly & A.J. or Kelly, but some of her songs make her emotional growth and personal experiences the issue; e.g., "A Place In This World" starts off, "I don't know what I want, so don't ask me/'Cause I'm still trying to figure it out/Don't know what's down this road, I'm just walking/Trying to see through the rain coming down/Even though I'm not the only one/Who feels the way I do." And the chorus - its melody and harmony - runs very close to "Behind These Hazel Eyes." Her vocal twang and the banjo or mandolin running through the chorus of "Should've Said No" doesn't make it any less a wailing rockin' teen rager on the order of Ashlee's "I Am Me." And "Tim McGraw" has smart smart smart lyrics. Not that there's no precedence for this in country: Deana Carter is a singer-songwriter precursor. (Not an age thing; Deana was already in her 30s before she hit with "Strawberry Wine." "Tim McGraw" is a variation on the first-love reminiscence of "Strawberry Wine." Strange that young Taylor is doing a reminiscence song. Also strange that the lyrics may be better than those in any of the hundred other first-love reminiscence songs in country since "Strawberry Wine.") I'll see if I can hunt down some of my December posts on Taylor from the ad hoc rolling country-in-email-exile substitution for a thread.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Monday, 15 January 2007 07:58 (6 years ago) Permalink

(Deana didn't write "Strawberry Wine," but she wrote everything on 2005's Story Of My Life, which does a good job of melding country narrative songs and singer-songwriter personal songs. And "The Girl You Left Me For" has as many "yeah yeah yeahs" as Aly & A.J.'s "Rush.")

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Monday, 15 January 2007 08:08 (6 years ago) Permalink

In last year's thread we had a discussion of how you don't actually have to confess anything to be "confessional." (This was in regard to Michelle Branch.) But I'd say Aly & A.J.'s "Not This Year" and "Sticks And Stones" qualify as A Girl's Personal Feelings. Though if Aly & A.J. were screaming their throats out those'd be punk. Sound has a lot to do with whether you're perceived as "confessional." We've been using "confessional" as a vague shorthand for a bunch of things. I'm not in particular trying to tie Taylor to the Michalka girls in any way that's deeper than they're being teens who are somewhat within musical range of each other and whose minds are at work.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Monday, 15 January 2007 08:20 (6 years ago) Permalink

Could somebody who likes the Ali Lohan record explain why then? I'll listen to it again when I get home to see if I missed anything, but on first listen I thought it was awful. Except for "Lohan Holiday", like I said.

― Greg Fanoe (JustFanoe), Monday, 15 January 2007 13:23 (6 years ago) Permalink

'lohan holiday' is awful! so awful it's compelling admittedly but still.

the jojo album is VERY good, having listened to it all weekend...

― lex pretend (lex pretend), Monday, 15 January 2007 13:33 (6 years ago) Permalink

So, can one of the Brits out there explain why Amy Winehouse (whose album comes out in the States in March) is something more than, like, the new Des'ree or Dionne Farris or something? I mean, I get it, I think: "Authentic soul" tedium for grownups with "good taste", and her single is about not being able to stop drinking or taking drugs, apparently, so that makes her Billie Holiday. And what makes her authentic is that her singing strains all the life out, so see, she's obviously on her last legs and therefore highly moving. Why should I care? I couldn't get through four songs on the CD yesterday.

― xhuxk (xheddy), Monday, 15 January 2007 14:35 (6 years ago) Permalink

"Lohan Holiday": alternate version. Makes me feel icky but I laughed at the ringtone.

― nameom (nameom), Monday, 15 January 2007 17:54 (6 years ago) Permalink

And no wonder we don't talk about TRL more around here...NY Daily News: â€œThe ratings are at an all-time low, around 300,000 viewers,â€ says the source. â€œThe show is going to be canceled and rebranded.â€

― nameom (nameom), Monday, 15 January 2007 18:06 (6 years ago) Permalink

I'm sorry to hear that about TRL, Dave. Maybe it's just faint nostalgia, but I still harbor positive feelings towards it. When I was in high school (1996-2000) TRL was just absolutely massive and, yes, I would rush home after school so I'd be home in time to watch it. And I'd root for and vote for my favorite videos ("Pretty Fly for a White Guy"! "Dope Show"! "I Want It That Way"! Eminem! Boo Korn!). I watched it again a few months ago (obviously work makes it hard to tune in) and it was pretty lame though so I don't know if the show has actually declined or if it was just never that good to start with.

― Greg Fanoe (JustFanoe), Monday, 15 January 2007 18:17 (6 years ago) Permalink

I like Amy Winehouse, she's funny. She's not asking for your pity, she's asking for a blimmin pint, right now mate and she'll probably give you a wink and a smile if you oblige or maybe even if you don't. She's always been rude and obnoxious and looked a bit like she might start a brawl at any moment but there're also some nice little confessional-without-being-pathetic moments in her music and I think it's genius. She's saying she doesn't want to go to rehab because she thinks it's a load of old bollocks, not 'ooh poor me I can't get off the booze.' Amy certainly wouldn't want your pity, although she does seem to be in something of a state, judging by the less reputable gossip rags, she's always immaculately turned out on stage, bar the fact she has a large tattoo of a woman with her breasts out on one of her arms.

I wrote something about her current album here, if you're a)interested or b)very bored.

― Hazel Robinson (Moggy), Monday, 15 January 2007 18:21 (6 years ago) Permalink

...and then of course there's always this!

― zebedee (zebedee), Monday, 15 January 2007 18:26 (6 years ago) Permalink

i'm really bored of the "amy winehouse is grown-up authentic fake soul for the 12-CD-a-year brigade" criticism, sorry chuck, it's just that there's so bloody much of it already over here. (i mean, in these circles alone: the mainstream press loves amy's music.) she mines the past but polishes it up at the same time; her voice is naturally quite bluesy or whatever (i don't think it's an affectation). these may help her appeal to the 12-cd brigade but she's much more interesting once you, y'know, listen to her songs and stuff, rather than just skim them.

"Authentic soul" tedium for grownups with "good taste"

yeah she's pitched as this to various quarters because that helps her shift units. doesn't mean that's what she is.

and her single is about not being able to stop drinking or taking drugs, apparently, so that makes her Billie Holiday

no one's claiming she's billie holiday, and the single isn't so much about how she can't stop drinking boo hoo, it's that she's not going to stop drinking fuck you. ie what hazel said. (a side point about the drinking: i think we're pretty much past the moral censure of famous women who get pissed, in the uk, apart from the more right-wing newspapers. when chaz church and girls aloud go on benders, it's reported luridly, but there's a sense of "good strong healthy specimens of british womanhood" about it all. with amy winehouse it is different because...well she's probably approaching lohan levels of self-abuse here. there's no "apparently" about any of it, girl does need help.)

And what makes her authentic is that her singing strains all the life out, so see, she's obviously on her last legs and therefore highly moving.

the singing in 'rehab' is jaunty and jolly and cocking a snook at everyone who thinks she should be on her last legs! at no point does winehouse even try to move us with tales of alcoholism - the booze is incidental to what she does try to move us with, the heartbreak and vague self-loathing. she succeeds because she's genuinely witty - not waving a big HELLO I'M COMEDY sign around a la lily allen or mike skinner, but smart and self-aware and self-deprecating and assured. listen to the way she sings the couplet "i don't ever want a drink again - ooh, i just need a friend", the wink-wink at the audience of the first line undercut so effectively by the pathos of the second. and 'you know i'm no good' - which is basically my favourite song right now if only because it's a spot-on depiction of a situation i was in a while back - is all about how harmed/harmful she is, but it's full of references to, like, chips and pitta and stuff.

― lex pretend (lex pretend), Monday, 15 January 2007 22:22 (6 years ago) Permalink

Since Disney burns their chart results 1984-style every week...

Jan 15, 2007 - Top 30: Usual suspects, plus new Ashley Tisdale at 30 with "Be Good to Me," "Kashmir"-pop. Corbin "Sacre" Bleu at #1 for the second or third consecutive week. Only major airplay discrepancy are two Keke Palmer tracks and Slumber Party girls climber "Countdown." Mailbag: Prude-rap wannabe and former incubatee Lil' Josh KICKED at 53%. Incubator: LAX (as in "Strap on your seatbelts and hang on, because LAX is cleared for take off."), very Cheetah Girls. (Last week was milk carton cover girl Britney Christian, does-a-body-good campaign crossover rock + power ballad "Make It Go Away" which might be about milk's power to combat calcium deficiency.)

― nameom (nameom), Monday, 15 January 2007 22:25 (6 years ago) Permalink

was their talk about the jojo album anywhere? it was out last year in the states. bar a couple of gloopy ballads near the end, i think it's terrific. she's surprisingly convincing as an r&b vamp - whether beyoncé-vixenish or cassie-vulnerable - and her earnest moments all have these massive, heartfelt choruses to them. and the diane warren state-of-the-nation ballad closer is ludicrous.

― lex pretend (lex pretend), Monday, 15 January 2007 22:29 (6 years ago) Permalink

I guess my problem with Winehouse is that, no matter how "funny" Brits seem to think she is (which I get the idea from the posts above has as much or not more to do with her public image as her music -- though Lex and Hazel do note the latter, admittedly), her singing sounds completely humorless to me. Which is to say Hazel's Lauryn Hill imitations absolutely ring true to me: The NPR tedium is right there in her sound. But who knows, maybe I'll change my mind as the year goes on. More likely, there's a language gap. I'm guessing that Americans won't pick up on the humor of it, even it's there; they'll pick up on the impeccable taste of it instead. (As for others making the same criticism as I have, that's news to me; I've barely read a word about the woman, here or elsewhere. So actually it's encouraging to hear I'm far from alone in my opinion.)

― xhuxk (xheddy), Tuesday, 16 January 2007 13:29 (6 years ago) Permalink

did you like lauryn, chuck? it's maybe a good comparison in that you can hear all these signifiers of tastefulness, the ways in which both would appeal to a white middle-class radio 2 audience (i don't know what npr is - i'm guessing our radio 2 is the equivalent). (amy's a lot less ambitious than lauryn though.)

but unlike others of that ilk, joss stone et al, both lauryn and amy i think are much better than that. (not that i think there's anything wrong with coffee-table diluted soul: i love me some sade.)

americans might not pick up on amy's dry humour but they'll probably pick up on the "boozy british chick" thing, which is if not humour than certainly black comedy.

― lex pretend (lex pretend), Tuesday, 16 January 2007 13:39 (6 years ago) Permalink

(for the record i love lauryn.)

― lex pretend (lex pretend), Tuesday, 16 January 2007 13:39 (6 years ago) Permalink

(for the record, i don't.)

― xhuxk (xheddy), Tuesday, 16 January 2007 13:44 (6 years ago) Permalink

in 1998 i didn't have much money (15 yrs old) and didn't get free stuffz so the albums i did buy i kind of listened to on repeat for about two years; i basically know the miseducation of lauryn hill off by heart

― lex pretend (lex pretend), Tuesday, 16 January 2007 13:53 (6 years ago) Permalink

Brie Larson's New Year's Resolutions:

1. eat more magenta colored foods
2. do a better job of protecting the rain forest.
3. finish composing my opus.
4. try to watch ALL the star wars movies in one day.
5. kick it old school by learning the running man
6. end my relationship with flava flav.
7. remember that my dog has feelings too.
8. respond to my hate mail more promptly.
9. create a DVD series that involves tai chi, chai tea, and tie-dye.
10. FINISH MY DAMN RECORD.

Open call for submissions for the March issue of Bunnies and Traps. Direct all mail to submissions at bunniesandtraps dot com. Just sayin'.

― nameom (nameom), Thursday, 18 January 2007 00:46 (6 years ago) Permalink

Hilary Duff news, album is due in April, all songs co-written with Kara DioGuardi and dancey as previously reported. There's a tie-in single for her new fragrance called "With Love" (both are called that).

― nameom (nameom), Friday, 19 January 2007 01:27 (6 years ago) Permalink

Well, "With Love" sounds great, as expected. This album has potential to be the next Come and Get It, though it's obviously extremely premature to expect it to be that good.

― Greg Fanoe (JustFanoe), Friday, 19 January 2007 02:04 (6 years ago) Permalink

And according to tommy2.net, the new Aly & AJ album has been pushed back to June (originally to be released in April). I'm still crossing my fingers for this one, but I clearly expect it to be great.

― Greg Fanoe (JustFanoe), Friday, 19 January 2007 02:06 (6 years ago) Permalink

I'm in a historical teen pop mood today.

When I was in like 9th grade-ish, the two songs that were absolutely massive in my school, apart from the obv. Savage Garden, Spice Girls, etc. were "Barbie Girl" (by Aqua) and "Tubthumping" (by Chumbawamba). In the bus on the way to school, my friends and I would memorize the words to "Tubthumping" and sing it on the way there. I'm sure the driver was thrilled. Both still sound great to me today. Never heard another Chumbawamba song, though I'm kinda curious if they are any good. Aqua, I know, released a great followup single called "Lollipop (Candyman)", which I've seen Frank talk up and which my friends and I also loved. Anybody heard any other Chumbawama or Aqua know if they are any good?

Admittedly, I dunno if this is teenpop, but Frank on one of the Pazz & Jop Poptimist polls posted a link to Jimmy Ray's "Are You Jimmy Ray?", which I literally cannot stop listening to. Just wanted to post it here in case any of you missed it there and don't know it. The song almost defies description, but is great.

― Greg Fanoe (JustFanoe), Friday, 19 January 2007 02:18 (6 years ago) Permalink

Chumbawamba wasn't really teenpop -- Tubthumping was really an aberration. The next album was called ReadyMades (a reference to the art movement) and its best song was a single about the drowned Russian sailors. It was called Joseph's Ladder. I really liked it.

― Mordechai Shinefield (Mordy), Friday, 19 January 2007 02:50 (6 years ago) Permalink

It's too bad if TRL goes down, since it was one of the few teen power bases to challenge Disney and to at keep teenpop somewhat older. Don't know who else would be likely to play a new Ashlee or Hilary. My guess is that with downloading and all, kids just don't think a countdown show is essential. (But didn't MTV once in its past abandon its countdown show - known as Dial MTV - and then later brought countdowns back, hence TRL.)

Xhuxk, you have to understand that the British charts now are terrible, so Amy comes on like a fresh breath of deliberately stale air. So far I find her singing way too mannered - and not mannered as "classy," but mannered as in she's trying to slur like Dorothy Parker. (Which may be exactly how she talks, but it still comes across as mannered.) But her Sade groove is, at least, a groove, in contrast with so many clompy British rock bands keeping it real by keeping it clompy. (Maybe one reason the Arctic Monkeys did so well is that they came on as good ole clompin' blokes but actually propelled the rhythm.)

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Friday, 19 January 2007 07:38 (6 years ago) Permalink

Lex, there was some JoJo talk on last year's thread, if you want to do a search. (I liked, Jeff didn't.) This doesn't mean we can't talk more about her this year.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Friday, 19 January 2007 07:39 (6 years ago) Permalink

The odd thing about "Are You Jimmy Ray?" is that it didn't particularly resemble any current genre of the time: wasn't techno or house, wasn't dancepop, wasn't hip-hop (though it kinda had talking), wasn't metal or grunge or rock, wasn't even '50s throwback, despite his hair. I suppose you could call it a quasi-rap to a Tommy Roe rhythm. I don't know. How would you guys categorize it?

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Friday, 19 January 2007 07:46 (6 years ago) Permalink

Greg: The first Aqua album (Aquarium) is uneven but still great, second one (Aquarius) mediocre (was going less for Europop and more for Britney pop, which would have been OK but the songs just weren't there). Another great track on the first album is "Roses Are Red." You should also check out the first Toy-Box album, Fantastic, which is very much like Aqua; not as good, but enjoyable nonetheless.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Friday, 19 January 2007 08:03 (6 years ago) Permalink

"...mannered as in she's trying to slur like Dorothy Parker."

You say this as though it were a bad thing! This line alone sold me the album. I'm grabbing a copy to listen to the first chance I get. Frank, I'm actually curious where you've heard Parker read -- I found a bunch of mp3s of her, but I'm always in the hunt for more. I love her voice. It sounds drenched in scotch and Lucky Strikes.

― Mordechai Shinefield (Mordy), Friday, 19 January 2007 09:31 (6 years ago) Permalink

i've never heard dorothy parker's voice! i want to!

― lex pretend (lex pretend), Friday, 19 January 2007 09:45 (6 years ago) Permalink

'Tubthumping' is about Old Labour's demise in the face of Nu Labour. True Story.

I liked the first Aqua album a lot- my little brother had a copy on tape and it used to get quite a lot of play in my mum's car on the way to/from school. There's a great song on there about a sort of fairytale princess who's generally making a mess of things.

I'm going to look up Toy Box now.

My hangover made me deeply confused as to what was going on with that Hilary Duff advert. Doesn't quite sound like there's a 'Come And Get It' in the air, to me but it does all sound rather promising, certainly.

― Hazel Robinson (Moggy), Friday, 19 January 2007 12:56 (6 years ago) Permalink

By the way, the top two new entries onto the Billboard's Hot 100 this week are Jordan Pruitt's "Jump To The Rhythm" (at #69) and Ashley Tisdale's "He Said, She Said" (at #77). So which are they pushing as Ashley's single, this one or "Be Good To Me"?

― Greg Fanoe (JustFanoe), Friday, 19 January 2007 14:18 (6 years ago) Permalink

My memory of 'Are You Jimmy Ray' was that it came out of nowhere, seemed to be total genius, and sounded like nothing else around at the time. Still not sure I could categorize it! I guess comparing the charts then (1997/1998) and now, it feels like there were some top pop hitmakers making money out of pop, and willing to try anything which seemed it had legs. Where as now, no-one's making enough money to take a chance. I didn't realise this was a Simon Fuller production until I googled it looking for the date, but that totally makes sense, as I guess the nearest thing I can think of to compare it to are some of the 1 hit wonders that Stock Aitken and Waterman put out (The Reynolds Girls etc.) when they were running things in the UK charts.

Chumbawumba were horrible greasy agit-punks, e.g. they did an album called 'Pictures of Starving Children Sell Records', who occasionally did some rather sweet pop things -- I'm still fond of a song called 'Someone's Always Telling You How to Behave' which sounds a bit like Dubstar, or a more electronic Frazier Chorus.

― alext (alext), Friday, 19 January 2007 15:32 (6 years ago) Permalink

Lex, if you want, I'll send you an mp3 or two to your email address. Any interest?

― Mordechai Shinefield (Mordy), Friday, 19 January 2007 16:32 (6 years ago) Permalink

that would be lovely! alex dot macpherson at gmail dot com please.

i fucking hated chumbawamba. dreadful.

― lex pretend (lex pretend), Friday, 19 January 2007 17:01 (6 years ago) Permalink

The Brie updates keep a-comin'...

i have been recording the new record.

THERE! it was said. laugh you fools! curse you and your fists that shake and slam down on the table to disrupt my can of iced tea that sits on the table. i shant cower I say! i will rue the day! i might be your criminal. but at least im the one who calls you to remind you of the fact that everyone is jealous of you. if those calls mean nothing, dare i say, i will gladly withdraw and bend my head down as i count to three for the machete to come swopping over his head and slice into mine.

im scared of my brain.

― nameom (nameom), Friday, 19 January 2007 23:15 (6 years ago) Permalink

Actually, it was Jennifer Jason Leigh in Mrs. Parker And The Vicious Circle (which I quite enjoyed).

I have yet to give Ms. Winehouse my full attention, knowing only two of her songs*. So far I like reading Moggy's description of her voice more than actually listening to the voice.

*Not counting her duet with Charlotte Church on "Beat It," which is a massive train wreck.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Saturday, 20 January 2007 01:20 (6 years ago) Permalink

Frank, this is part of why I like Camp.

― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Saturday, 20 January 2007 01:39 (6 years ago) Permalink

Tim, I like the way Tiffany Taylor (whoever she is) doesn't try to overpower "Here's Where I Stand," which automatically makes it better than 80% of the secularized gospel big-chorus numbers I've heard, and makes me want to listen to her some more; but still, the song itself is just another secularized gospel big-chorus number, and I don't see what's special about it. (This is after one listen, and maybe seeing it in context - which I'm guessing is a "Breaking Free" kind of revelation and release and consummation - I'd like it more, but I can't imagine it bringing a "Breaking Free" type catharsis. "Breaking Free" is such a better song.)

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Saturday, 20 January 2007 19:15 (6 years ago) Permalink

(Though I still cringe involuntarily when they sing "different than who we are." Why couldn't they have used "from"? It scans just as well.)

(Any Brits here want to make the case for "to"?)

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Saturday, 20 January 2007 19:19 (6 years ago) Permalink

Hilary Duff news, album is due in April, all songs co-written with Kara DioGuardi and dancey as previously reported.

Co-written with DioGuardi and whom else? So far Kara's always had someone helping with the music. (Maybe Hilary's helping with the music!) Thing is, Kara, appealing and ubiquitous as she is, has had almost all of her great moments with John Shanks on board. Great exceptions that jump to mind would be Kylie's "Spinning Around" (written with Paula Abdul and a couple more people), Kelly Clarkson's "Hear Me" (with Clif Magness, who seemed the key player on that one), Paris Hilton's "Jealousy" (w/ Scott Storch!), and Paris Hilton's "Not Leaving Without You" (w/ Greg Wells). In general, her work with Wells, while producing some good stuff (Lindsay's "Confessions of a Broken Heart" and "Who Loves You," for instance) isn't as good as the songs with Shanks (Lindsay's "First" and "Nobody 'Til You"). And of course, Kara's supreme moments with Hilary - "Come Clean" and "Fly," two of teenpop's supreme moments - are with Shanks producing and co-writing. Her own band, Platinum Weird*, has four songs with Shanks in on the writing credits, and those are four of the six tracks that are OK or better.

Don't know if "dance" is her strength (isn't Shanks's strength, either); I don't really think Kara's done a lot in that direction, other than her four with Paris (the other two are "Screwed" (w/ Wells) and "I Want You" (w/ Rotem, Gibb, and Bogart)). Mike Spencer was the producer on "Spinning Around." If you want to count Gwen Stefani's "Rich Girl" as dance - and why shouldn't you? - she's one of the cast of thousands in the writing credits, but I don't think she had a lot to do with the overall sound on that one. Her writing for Celine Dion has been OK but not amazing. (Um, there's been some good stuff with Anastasia too; don't remember how dancey it is.)

*On the regular Platinum Weird album, that is, not on the pseudo-throwback album w/ "Erin Grace," which I haven't heard.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Saturday, 20 January 2007 20:46 (6 years ago) Permalink

Straight from the source:

Hilary has been co-writing every song with Kara Dioguardi ( Gwen Stefani, Pussycat Dolls , Kelly Clarkson...) so each song is very personal to her. She has been working with some excitng producers and mixers such as Richard "Humpty" Vission (The Killers, Sting, Usher), Tim and Bob (Madonna, Destiny's Child, Will Smith) and 4 time Grammy winner, Manny Marroquin (John Mayer, Alicia Keys, kanye West.

No idea where the production input is coming from yet ("Play with Fire" is Vission, I think?). But my impression so far is that the writing credits are all Duff/DioGuardi...has a nice ring to it, too. DuffGuardi...

― nameom (nameom), Saturday, 20 January 2007 20:56 (6 years ago) Permalink

Hey, Wikipedia to the rescue (sort of):

"With Love" goes for official ads to mainstream radio February 6th 2007. With Love was recently released to Radio Disney on the week of January 15 sometime.

According to Wiki, the forthcoming album is called Confessions of Love. And the RD bit is accurate, "With Love" was surreptitiously slipped into voting eligibility some time in the last week or two. ("Play with Fire" was never made eligible through voting or otherwise.)

― nameom (nameom), Saturday, 20 January 2007 21:06 (6 years ago) Permalink

For DioGuardi/dance, the Paris album definitely seems like a watershed moment...it suggests that (writing-wise) she's finally gotten over what could be a hurdle earlier in her teenpop career before she kind of defined her "sound" with Shanks (e.g. her one sorta mediocre contribution to the Eden's Crush album, "Two Way," produced by Dow Brain/ Brian Young -- I think they were responsible for a bunch of Leslie Carter's unreleased album and LFO/"Summer Girls").

So maybe the post-Paris DioGuardi gets dance? And Hilary Duff has an edge of being ultra-adaptable -- she's got a kind of charming anonymity that I think might fit this kind of music nicely (and I like what I've heard so far). The fact that her voice fits songs like "Fly" and "Come Clean" so well actually seems a little counter-intuitive to me, and maybe effective in part because you're not expecting to be moved by a performer who's most striking trait is, arguably, being such an excellent chameleon.

― nameom (nameom), Saturday, 20 January 2007 21:31 (6 years ago) Permalink

I see their last album got its own thread, but I'd rather talk about the new Fallout Boy in the context of Teenpop anyway. So if there are no dissenting opinions...

They've got a very strong Chicago punk sound (The Academy Is..., Plain White T's) which makes their TRL status (or whatever status now that TRL is gone) more a coincidence. Or a broad appeal. Except that there is something very teenpop about their sound - the rushed delivery of super-articulate lyrics, the pop hooks. They remind of a highschooler I know who is quite intelligent, and very precocious, but comes off as a little precious because of it. There's something similar with Fallout Boy. Plus, they've got the word 'Boy' in their name. ;) Anyway, obviously this isn't traditional teenpop, though are they that far off from Meg&Dia, Avril (new album coming out!), or Duff?

― Mordechai Shinefield (Mordy), Sunday, 21 January 2007 03:32 (6 years ago) Permalink

Jimmy Ray's "Are You Jimmy Ray" sounded like "Faith" by George Michael, duh! (Same Bo Diddley rhythm, even.) (Which is not a bad thing; I liked it then and still do.)

― xhuxk (xheddy), Sunday, 21 January 2007 06:57 (6 years ago) Permalink

Me on Chumbawamba and assorted other 2000 teenpop acts:

http://www.villagevoice.com/music/0037,eddy,18135,22.html

(I'd reviewed Tubthumping in the Voice a couple years earlier, but I can't find it in the web archives.)

― xhuxk (xheddy), Sunday, 21 January 2007 07:01 (6 years ago) Permalink

(Or rather I'd reviewed the album with "Tubthumbing" on it, whatever it was called. It was better than any Mekons album after, like, 1986. Also way better than anything by the Redskins I ever heard.)

― xhuxk (xheddy), Sunday, 21 January 2007 07:14 (6 years ago) Permalink

To me, Fall Out Boy are utterly glorious as teenpop (especcially on that remix of 'Dance, Dance') by basically ticking all the boxes of a) ridiculous videos, b) danceable pop tunes, c) damn good singer (this really is true- his voice is quite unusual in a way but it's also definitely ace) and d) half-confessional, really quite funny lyrics.

They stand out from a lot of the rest of emo by actually being quite funny (MCR, for instance, take themselves more seriously than it's possible to believe) and also being a lot more normal-looking than most bands (MCR again) and, well, they got Babyface to produce their most recent album on the basis Pete Wentz (bassist/lyricist) liked the Josie and the Pussycats soundtrack. The new album is very ace, on that note- it's extremely pop with lots of clapping and sing-a-long moments etc. and as one of my friends pointed out, the single sounds like *NSync.

I mean, to me, the difference between them and Aly and AJ is that Fall Out Boy sound slightly more pop (Aly and AJ have some metallic moments, imo) and neither A nor A has ever got her cock out on the internet.

― Hazel Robinson (Moggy), Sunday, 21 January 2007 12:39 (6 years ago) Permalink

"Another Dumb Blonde," which could've used some of these 10cc analog doodles and Cher cyborg effects

But I thought "Another Dumb Blonde" is THEE Cher cyborg effect Hoku song? Idolator even said so.

It's a teasing slice of kiss-off pop, and its smart-chick spirit isn't even marred by the vocoder drops that plagued so much of Billboard's Hot 100 during the post-"Believe" era.

Thing with that M2M line, "may not have the blonde hair you like," is that at the time Marit was the (smart) blonde! So the question is whether or not Marion sings that line. Actually, I think they BOTH sing it. (Although their wording kind of ruins my argument, because Marit could very well have blond hair without having the blond hair "that you like.")

And of course by the time Ashlee comes along, she needs to HIDE her (naturally) blond hair for fear of being tagged "light n' frivolous" (Stephen Thomas Erlewine called I Am Me "going goth by going blonde," except he follows that up with a totally dumb (not blonde) line like "no matter how hard Simpson tries, no matter how foreboding the surface, beneath it all she's still light and frivolous.") I can't figure out whether or not Marit is naturally light- or dark-haired, but if it's the former that's another example of blonde self-hatred.

― nameom (nameom), Sunday, 21 January 2007 17:22 (6 years ago) Permalink

Here's the actual video for "Girl in Your Dreams." Marit sings that line too, but she's kind of hanging out to the side.

― nameom (nameom), Sunday, 21 January 2007 17:31 (6 years ago) Permalink

I would like to put in a plug here for my single of the year so far, "Stewy" by D.B.'z featuring E-40 (not to mention some apparent little kids going koo-koo bananas and saying so), which is on my album of the year so far, the Hyphy Hitz compilation on TVT.
(It's apparently about the baby who wants to take over the world on "Family Guy," a cartoon my kids like but I really can't stand.)

Anyway, the song can be streamed here, apparently (though I'm not positive that E-40 is on this version, since I haven't listened):

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=43383393

― xhuxk (xheddy), Sunday, 21 January 2007 20:40 (6 years ago) Permalink

Re: Amy Winehouse... I just listened to 'You Know I'm No Good,' and her voice is... a lot like Joanna Newson! It's remarkable, they both do that uptick in their voices, where their voice slightly cracks and whines. Is this just me? Cause it's really weird.

― Mordechai Shinefield (Mordy), Sunday, 21 January 2007 21:40 (6 years ago) Permalink

Does this count as an "approved rock person"?

Ashlee Wants Robert Smith from the Cure

When she returns to recording pop, Ashlee says she want the Cure's Robert Smith to help with her comeback. After he came to her last performance as Roxie Hart in 'Chicago', she says,"Robert Smith from the Cure came to my last show in London, and I don't know if I was more excited about him or that it was the last show! "To work with Robert Smith would be an honour."

― nameom (nameom), Sunday, 21 January 2007 22:39 (6 years ago) Permalink

Sounds pretty good, and exciting, to me. I'm not sure I understand what Robert Smith would be helping with, but if he gives Ashlee some more sophistication with her lyrics, and some insight in her music, I'd be very interested to hear that. Of course, I'm sure some people would rather Ashlee figure that kind of stuff out on her own.

― Mordechai Shinefield (Mordy), Sunday, 21 January 2007 23:33 (6 years ago) Permalink

"Dancing Alone" sounded quite a bit like The Cure circa "Inbetween Days" I thought.

― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Sunday, 21 January 2007 23:46 (6 years ago) Permalink

Rolling RD 1-22-07: Top 30 - Ashley does the Hollywood shuffle, up to 14 from her 30 entry and expected at #1 in two weeks or so. The cast of Jump In and assorted dorks (like T-SQUAD) enter the charts. No sign of prude-rap king Lil' Josh, whose single was kicked by a small margin a couple weeks ago (wait is he on the soundtrack?). Most interesting news is from the Mailbag, where an Everlife cover of a Veronicas song ("I Could Get Used to This") was PICKED 78%. Apparently this is Everlife V's cover 1 of 2, the other being for a song called "Faded" which I've never heard (apparently a single for an Australian Idol, Kate DeAraugo).

― nameom (nameom), Monday, 22 January 2007 13:51 (6 years ago) Permalink

Kate's "Faded" isn't very good at all, although I'm not sure how much of that is the song and how much is Kate and her handlers/producers. Or maybe it's that Veronicas songs don't work without the harmonies.

― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Monday, 22 January 2007 14:01 (6 years ago) Permalink

if he gives Ashlee some more sophistication with her lyrics

Seems to me that it'd be Ashlee who could give him sophistication in his lyrics (though honestly I don't know many Cure lyrics, but what in the world is unsophisticated about Ashlee's "Say Goodbye," for instance)?

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Monday, 22 January 2007 18:37 (6 years ago) Permalink

Marion wrote "Girl In Your Dreams" all by her lonesome, at age 14 or so, and it seems at least as smart as anything she's written since.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Monday, 22 January 2007 18:40 (6 years ago) Permalink

Something new to investigate:

http://www.myspace.com/katenashmusic

Being hyped as the next Lily Allen. Teen enough for this thread, if perhaps not pop enough. Interesting though.

― zebedee (zebedee), Monday, 22 January 2007 19:46 (6 years ago) Permalink

Meanwhile, I'd like to get a more modest hype machine started on Alexa Melo, youngest contestant (possibly winner, I forget) on America's Most Talented Kids Diva show. I'm not sure exactly what that is.

Her song "Shake Your Pants" ("All my girls grab a boy and take him by the hand/ drag him to the dancefloor and make him shake his pants!") was written by none other than Drew Seeley. Shades of P!nk-to-be (or Fergie-to-be?) in "Girlfriend"...which made me finally check out Stacy Fergie Ferguson on Kids Inc.. Hadn't seen it since the show was actually on the air.

There's also some strange feature on her page where a buncha fans call in, say hello, and occasionally submit demos by phone.

― nameom (nameom), Monday, 22 January 2007 22:33 (6 years ago) Permalink

Well - I was ineloquent (as usual). I don't mean sophistication so much. I mean that a song like Say Goodbye, as great as it is, uses fairly simple words and meanings to convey a slightly more complex meaning. It does that really well. But I imagine that with a broader sense of articulation -- with a larger vocabulary (damn, I wanted to avoid saying that, but I feel that's true) -- she'd be able to express herself far more insightfully. With many more layers of things occurring. Obviously, music doesn't have to be dense to be good (and plenty of dense music isn't good), but with Ashlee I'd like to see it, at least as an experiment.

"Oh i miss the kiss of treachery the aching kiss
Before i feed the stench of a love for a younger
Meat and the sound that it makes when it cuts
In deep the holding up on bended knees the
Addiction of duplicities as bit by bit it starts
The need to just let go my party piece"

Obviously that won't do it for everyone. But hard verbs and nouns - solid words - do it for me far more than vaguer lyrics where your pointing at something, but lack the words for it. "Maybe you don't
Love me / Like I love you baby / Cause the broken in you doesn't make me run / There is beauty / In the dark side." Even as I write this, I'm not sure there's anything objectively better about the Cure song than the Ashlee song. Obviously a Springsteen song where everything is so specific - that's the height for me. And I feel like the Cure is somewhere in between. Like; let's get some synonyms for love, or at least an explanation of what makes this love more special than any other love.

― Mordechai Shinefield (Mordy), Tuesday, 23 January 2007 06:05 (6 years ago) Permalink

I'd think Smith would be the personification of an ARP. But please: don't let him sing or write any songs for her--a few chorused doleful strums, okay.

― Grey, Ian (IanBrooklyn), Tuesday, 23 January 2007 06:09 (6 years ago) Permalink

More likely though, if Smith did help Ashlee with lyrics, they'd end up like "Love Song" - i.e. no more specific.

― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Tuesday, 23 January 2007 07:34 (6 years ago) Permalink

Lily Allen requests:
EDIT , Can everyone please stop calling Kate Nash the new Lily Allen , Kate is a very talented songwriter and her music sounds nothing like mine , she exists i her own right and it must be really annoying for her to be compared to me the whole time ! thank you .

(I don't think this is aimed at people like Jeff, who isn't comparing Kate to Lily but just mentioning that others are doing so.)

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Tuesday, 23 January 2007 07:45 (6 years ago) Permalink

There are all sorts of good lyrics; abstract, specific, nonsensical. Strong images are fine when they do something. (NY Dolls: "I'll show you more busted glass than any girl ever seen.") Seems to me that the Ashlee* sentence in "Say Goodbye" has no imagery (or two images - "broken" and "run") and lots of ideas, whereas the Cure lyric has lots of images but no ideas. (Or hackneyed ideas: "kiss of treachery"; yeah, been there, done that. And it aches. So...?) But an explication of the Cure lyric might turn it around for me, since I won't claim I come close to getting it, even in the context of the whole song.

The Ashlee line ("Maybe you don't love me/Like I love you, baby/'Cause the broken in you doesn't make me run") tells as complex a story as any stand-alone line I've ever come across, from anyone, song lyric, novel, play, poem, aphorism. Shakespeare, Austen, Berry. And generous and sad, the story. You don't need the rest of the song, even. You get everything: the situation, her attitude towards it, her feelings. On last year's thread Tim illuminated those lyrics better than I could possibly do, so I'll just paste in what he wrote.

"Maybe/you don't/love me/like I/love you/baby/'cos the broken in you doesn't make me run"

Something about that line is so ace, maybe it's that it drags out the simple first part so much, then all the meaning is actually so tightly compressed in the second half.

Then he elaborated a couple of weeks later:

Thinking of that line in "Say Goodbye", I think one of the things that makes it work so well is that, yeah, at first glance it sounds pretty straightforward, but actually it's almost encoded. A straightforward line would be something like: "You can't handle me 'cos I'm complicated" or "You only like me when I make you look good." But instead she says:

"Maybe you don't love me like I love you, baby, cos the broken in you doesn't make me run. There is beauty in the darkness. I'm not frightened - without it I could never feel the sun."

It's a lot less judgmental and, I guess, more reflective, this way: like she's just coming to understand the difference in the way that she and her (soon to be?) ex approach questions of love and relationships. And she's not sure which is right or wrong (if right and wrong there is) but she's not sorry for being the way she is. And then on another level she's telling him that it's okay to be damaged.

And then, in response to something Don said:

I think Ashlee is saying "we're both broken (damaged, not heartbroken), but you want someone unbroken (maybe because you can't handle your own brokenness). Whereas because I know that I'm broken I'm willing to accept that dealing with your brokenness is the only way I could make this arrangement work. You disagree, so this relationship isn't gonna work."

Wrapped up in this is the belief that the notion of a "fairweather friend" being a bad thing holds doubly true for relationships: that it's only by understanding someone in all their complexity and difficulty (rather than some seemingly unblemished pedestal perfection) that you can make love really meaningful.

I think Tim's on the money, and that Ashlee* does all this in 19 clear words, not quite conversational ("the broken in you doesn't make me run" would be a little odd in casual speech), but straightforward, not dressed in poetry.

I am a bit puzzled how such a simply worded line pulled off so much. I ruminated a bit about this last year (linked here, if you want to ruminate with me).

(*or Ashlee-Kara, or Ashlee-Kara-John)

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Tuesday, 23 January 2007 09:08 (6 years ago) Permalink

The themes of "Say Goodbye" are in the first two tracks on the Platinum Weird album, but Kara does nothing interesting with them:

When the rain comes tumbling, tumbling down, will you be around?

Nicely sounded "tumblings," but the idea is clichéd.

Then you'll see my greatest gift
Is fallin' down and takin' it
'Cause everything is better when it hurts
My biggest thirst
Is happiness in all kinds of weather
For worse or for better
I have it anyway
But happiness can't last forever
You know there's never pleasure without the pain
Here it comes again

Now this doesn't pull together into any stories, and I'm not feeling its pleasure or pain. Given that Kara's a veteran songsmith, and Ashlee a youngster, one would have expected that Ashlee provided raw ideas, and Kara provided the craft and wisdom that turned them into art. But maybe Ashlee provided a whole hunk of the craft and wisdom as well, with Kara providing some of the ideas, or drawing them forth from Ashlee.

Really, there are some bad lines - way worse than these - on the Platinum Weird album.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Tuesday, 23 January 2007 10:10 (6 years ago) Permalink

I think "Come Clean" does the rain motif so much more successfully.

― Mordechai Shinefield (Mordy), Tuesday, 23 January 2007 19:03 (6 years ago) Permalink

Agree.

Think it's better because in "Come Clean" Kara isn't using "rain" as a simple stand-in for "adversity," which is such a dead metaphor. Instead, rain buffets and cleanses. But actually, my listening to "Come Clean" is now enriched by knowing those Platinum Weird songs, since "adversity" adds something as subtext. E.g.,

Let the rain fall down and wake my dreams
Let it wash away my sanity
'Cause I wanna feel the thunder, I wanna scream
Let the rain fall down, I'm coming clean.

Imagine that the real first line is accompanied by a silent, alternate one:

Let the PAIN come down and wake my dreams

- which might even be what Kara had in mind.

(By the way, I think of Kara as the prime lyricist here, while she and John Shanks combine on the music; but I have no idea if that's true; in Lucy Woodward's account of working with Shanks and with Shelly Pelkin [Dave linked this on last year's thread], everyone seems to be throwing in ideas about everything.)

In general, it wouldn't be a bad idea for most songwriters to stop using weather imagery.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Tuesday, 23 January 2007 20:37 (6 years ago) Permalink

Hello. I'm just jumping in here...

Then you'll see my greatest gift
Is falling down and taking it

How is this any less interesting than "the broken in you"? This is possibly my favorite lyric on the Platinum Weird album--whoever would think of the ability to take a beating as their greatest gift? There's something really striking there, in the double meaning of "gift" especially--submissiveness is her talent, her possession, and submissiveness is what she is offering. And while I agree there are some real clunkers on the album (and because they're mostly clunkers of the "crap, what rhymes with cloud?" variety, I'm going to guess they're all Kara's, although they may very well be Dave's), I also think there are plenty of evocative images. Frank, I believe you posted on last year's thread that "Mississippi Valentine" is one of your least favorites, but I like the photo album quality of it, and I also think "Crying at the Disco" and "When We Met" pull together very well. ("I may have said goodbye, but I never meant goodbye / They were only words, and some words aren't true" is another favorite. I can't think of a sharper way to say "but I didn't mean it!" As opposed to "let the rain come down and wake my dreams," which means...what, exactly?)

Also, the line in "Happiness" is "I'll have it anyway," which I think changes it a lot--it allows for the defiance with which she sings that line. In present tense, it's a shrug: whatever comes along, she's happy. In future tense, and in that tone, it's a challenge: hey, screw you, she's going to have her happiness, just watch.

Actually, overall, I think the thing about Kara writing for Kara is that she relies a lot more on her delivery--probably because she can, and probably because she doesn't have to tell the story of someone else's life. This thread seems to focus a lot on lyrics, which is fine, I love lyrics, but they're not independent of the music or the vocals. I think you can argue that, as text, Kara's lyrics don't read as interesting or as strong as Ashlee's or Hilary's, but together with the music and vocals, many of them are as good or better.

Anyway, nice to meet you all.

― Nia (girlboymusic), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 05:28 (6 years ago) Permalink

Hi Nia. I like your analysis of the two "gifts." Keep posting. I remember you from a Cure For Bedbugs comment thread. I used to work in editorial too (back when I was a contender, instead of a bum). I wouldn't say that "Mississippi Valentine" is my least favorite - the melody's OK, and the singing is warm - just that it's got the two lines that I most want to ridicule: "Have you thrown a wish into the ocean/And watched it slowly float away?" "Don't want to be alone on this planet they call Earth" - so, Kara, what do you call it? Ashlee herself has several howlers, which I attribute to her rather than to John or Kara because the problems are technical, getting a metaphor backwards or inadvertently saying something different from what she intended to say. But the ideas she's trying to communicate (or Kara is trying to communicate on Ashlee's behalf) aren't mawkish or stupid, which some of Platinum Weird's are. I'd be happy if you could convince me I've underrated the Platinum Weird album. And remember, I consider the two Ashlee albums - esp. the first - to be among a handful of the very greatest albums of the '00s, and for that reason I had super-high expectations for Platinum Weird.

I think that Ashlee's a better singer than Kara, even if I'd trust Kara over Ashlee to hit a note dead center at 50 paces. Kara oversings. In fact, I think weak-voiced Lindsay - who pretty obviously models her phrasing after Kara's, and I wouldn't be surprised if she simply followed Kara's demos phrase-for-phrase in "Nobody 'Til You" and "First" - would have done a better job in "Avalanche" and "Somebody To Love," because she wouldn't have been able to bowl those songs over. My favorite moment on Platinum Weird is when Kara quietly goes "Your sorrow too" on "All My Sorrows."

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 21:14 (6 years ago) Permalink

You've all seen David's new Sugarshock column, I gather? I think it's one of his best.

― jaymc (jaymc), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 21:18 (6 years ago) Permalink

i hadn't, i think it's great.

tangentially related - i was thinking the other week about how the 'confessions' video completely cuts out all the "does she mean it? is she faking it? is she 4 real? is she being honest?" crap which is relevant to everyone else in pop music, from teenpop to indie to hip-hop, by virtue of her being a tabloid staple (ie the very thing which stops people taking it seriously). everything in that video is meant, is 4 real, is honest, and we know this because we've already read about it.

― lex pretend (lex pretend), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 21:32 (6 years ago) Permalink

Nonetheless, it feels like someone pounding relentlessly on my windshield to get my attention. I wish she'd/they'd gotten a grownup to direct it and script it, using Lindsay's ideas.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 22:13 (6 years ago) Permalink

Ugh. I found the Sugar Shock 7 utterly unconvincing and a little crude. Obviously the suggestion for Ashlee to get ill was a stab at humor, but the entire assumption that sitting in the public light is the best thing for an artist is presumptuous (IMHO). Near the end of the article, a sort of PR merit system is designed where Britney Speaks and Lindsey Lohan are praise-worthy because of their "they do," which keeps them in the limelight. Ashlee, who shows some class and is therefore ignored is considered a failure. Consider a different narrative where Ashlee has the opportunity of acting as a serious artist because she doesn't have baggage of a spectacle to work behind. I imagine as these (tablodish) things pile up higher and higher, it becomes harder for a Spears to emancipate herself from the role she's been thrust into. Ashlee can still reinvent herself. Also, the piece ignore the fact that Lohan can act - and that much of her behavior exits in the context of the "hard life" narrative. Both are mitigating factors. (If Meryl Streep says she can act, is anyone going to disagree?)

And no offense to David Moore, but an insight like: "Of course it would probably kill her music career, which too few people took seriously in the first place, usually because they took it way too seriously." just sounds like psychobabble to me.

― Mordechai Shinefield (Mordy), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 22:50 (6 years ago) Permalink

Don't know if this one's legit, but here's a new MySpace page for Kara. (There was one last year that was taken down.)

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 23:31 (6 years ago) Permalink

I hadn't realized Kara was in on "Ain't No Other Man." She's one of five writers: Christina Aguilera, Charles Roane, Chris E. Martin, Harold Beatty, Kara DioGuardi.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 23:36 (6 years ago) Permalink

Think Dave's piece is good social analysis right up to that line near the end that Mordy quoted, which baffles me, too, and I don't get the Ashlee hospital fantasy in the final paragraph either.

My hero story for Ashlee has her writing continually self-analytic, probing, and restless lyrics for continually catchy songs, and dressing really well and really outrageously, and slowly gathering a new audience on her own terms; but in reality I have no clue where she goes next or what models she follows. There don't seem to be any. Dance and r&b aren't really her thing, and these days Singer-Songwriter, Pop Star, and Punkette all seem dumber and duller than she is.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 23:57 (6 years ago) Permalink

Also, I don't know how restless and probing she really is.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Thursday, 25 January 2007 00:11 (6 years ago) Permalink

Well, Mordechai, I do appreciate your criticism. But I think my tongue was pretty firmly in cheek for at least 45% of it! Especially those last two paragraphs, which I thought were...well, kinda funny but not exactly insightful. (It might just be baffling because it's not that funny.) As far as Ashlee faking an illness, it was an elaborate way of saying "she's kind of up against a wall, isn't she?" (but then no sooner do I write and delete a part about enlisting a totally credible tuneless indie/fogey dork than she gets Robert Smith's number!) And I do think Lindsay will abandon her music career (possibly in favor of her film career), because careerwise it's basically dead weight for her, which really sucks. But I don't think that quoted line was particularly psychobabblish at all, though. People don't take her music career seriously as a career because they take her music -- or what they think is her music -- too seriously (like Lex's perception of humorlessness in the earnest/not earnest discussions upthread).

I imagine as these (tablodish) things pile up higher and higher, it becomes harder for a Spears to emancipate herself from the role she's been thrust into. Ashlee can still reinvent herself.

But as far as almost all of this goes...I just don't see any of this happening at all. I do think Lindsay has more options and freedom (in her film career only), and that Ashlee is out in the cold. My main point is that her Disney/kid audience is crucial right now, and the recent tabloid stuff effectively kills her shot at "coming back" on Disney's terms (and, also importantly, that this didn't hurt Britney at all. But she certainly wasn't allowed back in the building -- "Toxic" could have been but wasn't shopped to the RD audience; this is the same company that five years ago could excise "I'm not that innocent" to make Britney OK for the kids...and I don't think they'd have to edit even that in 2004).

Another point I didn't really get to elaborate on is that Britney, by being in the limelight, gets to sidestep the tricky "authentic makeover" bullshit that Xtina just (successfully) went through -- so she gets to remain herself. Not to say that expectations of "authenticity" can't ever lead to great music, but that the expectations are idiotic and Britney transcends it, and so does Lindsay. But Ashlee doesn't, and we'll just have to see what Robert Smith has to offer her.

(If Meryl Streep says she can act, is anyone going to disagree?)

Well, this person disagrees.

― nameom (nameom), Thursday, 25 January 2007 00:57 (6 years ago) Permalink

Sorry - I must've been tired. I was reading most of the piece straight. Rereading it now, I totally get your point - even if I disagree on Ashlee. (I agree about Lohan having film to turn to, and Britney not needing the same reinvention as Christina did. Though I don't see Christina's transformation as a necessity, but more as a consequence of her ability to reinterpret herself.) Ashlee though - everyone keeps talking about her being up against a wall. Even in this thread, there's a lot of discussion of where she's going to go from here. But that doesn't really concern me -- as Robert Smith indicates, there'll be artists interested in working with her. And she'll go somewhere. And if it's not predictable, isn't that so much cooler than if we can chart her trajectory?

Anyway, the Stylus is pretty funny - if not a little obvious. But I didn't catch a criticism of her acting chops. (I also read it during American Idol commercials - so I admit, I'm a little distracted.)

― Mordechai Shinefield (Mordy), Thursday, 25 January 2007 02:07 (6 years ago) Permalink

Oh, and there's a typo in that Lindsay sentence, too, it should read "they don't take her music career seriously, usually because they take her too seriously." And you could even relate that to "Rumors" era Lindsay, when an argument might go like this:

Can you please respect my privacy?" I don't know, LL-- can you please insult my intelligence? I mean, really, if you're going to put it that way, why not just put a "Kick Me I Like Swirlies" sign on the back of those jammies you wore to the last Hilton soirée? Yes, there's a fine line between being noticed and being watched, and a lot of celebrity reportage is just a few slime trails above Penthouse Pet photo captions; and of course no one's nip slips or panty peeks should find their way onto the Internet, but pointing out the injustice of it all isn't going to earn you Good Samaritan kudos or bonus Best Buy Bucks.

From Pfork at the time. The fact that rumors is kind of a fun dance song takes a backseat to the idea that Lindsay is really anguished about the rumors.

― nameom (nameom), Thursday, 25 January 2007 02:15 (6 years ago) Permalink

CRAP I missed Am Idol again.

― nameom (nameom), Thursday, 25 January 2007 02:17 (6 years ago) Permalink

I hope you turned it on the moment you read this. Cause I'm really enjoying the show tonight. They just had this woman on - I didn't catch her name - but she was the one who did the workout in the beginning to the Rocky theme song. And when I listened to her tryout I was crossing my fingers. Because she doesn't have an amazing voice, but she has so much attitude and spunk, it completely made up for the lack of a great singing voice. I just loved her attitude. I wish I could find out her name.

― Mordechai Shinefield (Mordy), Thursday, 25 January 2007 02:22 (6 years ago) Permalink

I love American Idol but I rather don't care for the audition episodes, comparatively. Too much time spent on the bad singers relative to the at least decent. Once the show goes on, it's a barrel of fun though, in my opinion at least.

― Greg Fanoe (JustFanoe), Thursday, 25 January 2007 02:37 (6 years ago) Permalink

Lindsay Lohan, in terms of acting/singing, I would compare to Aly & AJ. With Hilary Duff, for example, no matter what the venue you are getting pretty much the same person/personality, be it music, movies, interviews, etc. For both Lindsay and Aly&AJ, as actresses they are as light and fluffy as can be, but as singers have little sense of humor and are very serious and earnest. Lindsay trying to get more serious as an actress but to this point has been as non earnest as can be. As have Aly & AJ. So if Lindsay starts to get more serious and earnest as an actress (see for example Prairie Home Companion), the music career is expendable. In any event, if you focus on her singing and songs only, yeah, you are gonna take it too seriously.

― Greg Fanoe (JustFanoe), Thursday, 25 January 2007 02:41 (6 years ago) Permalink

Extending on previous post, I should say, that cynically implies that Linsday's music career exists solely as a PR thing. Which, sadly, at this point we at least have to consider that it is. Not that it's not good, because it is.

With Aly & AJ, I see it going in the other direction. As time goes on, I think they will start to incorporate more humor, lightness, and fun into their music, and phase out the acting. Which is a damned shame because Aly is a really great actress.

― Greg Fanoe (JustFanoe), Thursday, 25 January 2007 02:48 (6 years ago) Permalink

In what? "Phil of the Future"? That Disney Channel movie where the girls are rich chicks who have to work on the family dairy farm? She shows no kind of depth, whereas LL was really good in movies a couple of years ago.

― Haikunym (Haikunym), Thursday, 25 January 2007 02:51 (6 years ago) Permalink

Oh, I definitely agree that Lindsay is better as a serious actress. Cow Belles is an abomination. But, in my opinion, Alyson IS excellent in Phil of the Future. Just so funny and cute. No depth, of course, but the role doesn't require it. Just as a reminder to those who don't know, I loved all the Disney shows before I ever liked teen pop so I definitely come in from the TV/movie perspective. Anyways, I've loved Aly for her work on the show well before I heard Aly & AJ. And Lindsay's really great at the cute, funny roles too!

But maybe I didn't make my point very well which is that since Aly has more depth as a musician she's probably going to drop acting and since Lindsay has more depth as an actress she'll probably drop the music. Not that they aren't both good at acting and singing.

― Greg Fanoe (JustFanoe), Thursday, 25 January 2007 03:20 (6 years ago) Permalink

Frank, yeah, I think I was thinking of your comment on "have you thrown a wish into the ocean..." from last year's thread. (What is it you don't like about that, anyway? You've only said that you don't.)

I'm wondering if part of the problem with Kara is that she has no identity, not as a a celebrity, not as an artist, not as a person. When Ashlee sings "I was stuck inside someone else's life and always second best," we can fill in the blank with the idea of Ashlee--black-sheep little sister, desperate to be seen and heard, because we've been sold that image alongside the songs. When Kara sings "so many nights I've heard you talk in delight about the promised land," we're left with the blank, because what is Kara beyond the song? You said it right there in your Voice review--there's no story to connect to.

Now, when you find out that Kara was raised by a religious, right-wing Republican congressman, does it make "Avalanche" any better? Or at least give it the possibility of being better? I think it does. We've both brought up "Crying at the Disco" as one of the better songs--is it maybe because it's so clearly tied to who Kara is? Maybe what Kara needs is not someone to turn her words and sounds into her words and sounds, but just a her to begin with.

Of course, at a certain point the music needs to speak for itself, and I do think Ashlee's music is more successful in establishing an actual identity--the story of that girl. But I don't think I would understand just how deeply Ashlee is (or wants to be seen as) that girl from the music alone. And then again, Ashlee is the focus of Ashlee's music, whereas Kara is ostensibly not the focus of PW's, so I'm not sure how much we can/should ask for PW's music to have a coherent personal identity.

Anyway, back to replying to your actual post: I don't know if I'd say Ashlee's a better singer. More distinctive, yes, and more contained (in a good way). Same goes for Lindsay and, to a lesser extent, Kelly Clarkson. But there are times when Ashlee sounds like she's struggling to sing bigger (the end of "Say Goodbye"), to the detriment of the song, and I don't think any of Kara's proteges are capable of, say, the eye-rolling sarcasm of "Is it finally gettin' to ya? Hallelujah!"

I do understand the disappointment with the PW album. I love "La La" about as much as you love Autobiography, and there is no "La La" on this album. But I do think it accomplishes more than you give it credit for, and I'd love to change your mind.

― Nia (girlboymusic), Thursday, 25 January 2007 05:52 (6 years ago) Permalink

xpost

"Take seriously" and "earnest" are becoming bizarre, shifting code words on this thread, and I'm not following. I take Lindsay's singing (and what I've seen of her acting) seriously. And I think she's a lot of fun. I take fun seriously.

Lindsay brings lots of humor and enthusiasm to her singing, when she wants to. Talked about this last year here (scroll down to the third entry) and here and here, and talked about her acting here.

Comic acting is just as rich as dramatic acting; in fact, I doubt that there's much difference, since in good comedies the actors are playing it straight - the characters don't know that they're being funny - and allowing the situations to provide the humor. And in Herbie: Fully Loaded, the scenes between Lindsay Lohan and Michael Keaton (playing her dad) are played absolutely seriously, somberly, even, and they have to be or else there's no way to care about the rest of the movie (both she and her dad are undercutting her calling as a stock-car driver, and you have to believe in their reasons and their uncertainty or else there's nothing emotional at stake, and therefore no exhilaration or release provided when the film gets funny).

Saw one episode of "Phil Of The Future," Aly Michalka was on for maybe two minutes total, and she was absolutely incandescent.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Thursday, 25 January 2007 06:26 (6 years ago) Permalink

(Nia, may not be able to answer you in a timely fashion. But I won't forget to.)

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Thursday, 25 January 2007 06:44 (6 years ago) Permalink

Where's Chris Hansen when you need him?

― Jack Cole (jackcole), Thursday, 25 January 2007 06:49 (6 years ago) Permalink

I place a far higher premium on comedic than dramatic acting. And you just can't teach a person timing.

When I first saw Freaky Friday, I knew basically nothing about Lohan. Half way through the movie, I was sold--this girl was often wiping the floor with Jamie Lee Curtis, whose no slouch, and doing a better Jamie Lee than Jamie Lee did a Lohan.

Her pratfalls in Mean Girls were brilliant--her delivery of the voice-overs uniquely droll.

The only problem with her in A Prairie Home Companion was that every single person aroud her was at least 30 years older--how could she not seem out of place? And even then, she fully ehld her own against the vets---I got this real sense of her existing within this very well-thought-out chracter space of her own, no small feat considering, again, the competition.

in Bobby--a dire film in every other way--she was the sole element of stillness, of, again, being in that space, that person's skin.

I completely agree with Frank with the Foster/Silence thing. If she gets her shit together, I see no reason for her not to emerge from the teen thing just as Jamie Lee emerged from the slasher queen thing as a highly credible actor.

― Grey, Ian (IanBrooklyn), Thursday, 25 January 2007 07:33 (6 years ago) Permalink

(sorry about typing...long day)

― Grey, Ian (IanBrooklyn), Thursday, 25 January 2007 07:34 (6 years ago) Permalink

(And that sounded like I was relegating teenpop to a lower realm--which isn't what I intended.)

― Grey, Ian (IanBrooklyn), Thursday, 25 January 2007 08:16 (6 years ago) Permalink

Either because of, responsible for, or coincidental to watching American Idol last night - I appear to have gotten sick (symptoms: feverish, stomach, etc). I would like to retroactively excuse any comments I made earlier using this brand new ailment.

On that note: I love Lohan's acting. And Frank, I think words like "sincere" or "earnest" or "authentic," when taken with acting, are absolutely absurd. They condescend to the actress (whether it's Lohan or Ali), assuming that her persona is far less fluid than a "real" "talented" actress. Which relates to Lohan's music career too. If an established actor/actress released a poor album (or a poorly received album), we'd feel comfortable saying that they made a misstep - or that the album is far weaker than their acting. But if Lohan is really an overarching persona, and not an actress, than we can't separate the music from the acting.

On that note: I found Lohan's singing unremarkable and unnecessary. I also found her acting excellent, and enjoyed watching every movie she's appeared in that I've had the opportunity to watch. And I don't feel one feeling necessarily has anything to do with the other.

Now I'm gonna go lie down in the bathroom and moan pitifully. This again has little to do with my enjoyment of Lohan's performances - except in the extant that I may even now be delusional. But that's a bad road to go down.

― Mordechai Shinefield (Mordy), Thursday, 25 January 2007 11:21 (6 years ago) Permalink

The thing about Aly vs. Lohan as actresses is that they both have just an incredible screen presence. Nothing you can teach there, but they both just absolutely light up the screen when they are on there. I tend to focus on the good of actresses (and music too) when I can. OK, maybe Aly has shown no depth (and who knows, maybe she's a killer dramatic actress) but she's so incredibly great at what she has done that it's good enough for me. All I was saying is that it'd be a shame if she let that go. And I hope nobody thinks I was condescending to them, I consider both of them to be among the truly great actresses of the 00s.

I take Lindsay's music seriously too (whatever we want to mean by "take seriously"), I just get the distinct impression that she doesn't seem to care about it too much one way or the other. And unless she shows that she genuinely wants it and she's willing to work her butt off for it, it'll never succeed. That's how JLo successfully made the switch.

― Greg Fanoe (JustFanoe), Thursday, 25 January 2007 13:12 (6 years ago) Permalink

I take Lindsay's singing (and what I've seen of her acting) seriously. And I think she's a lot of fun. I take fun seriously.

For what it's worth, what I was trying to say before (even though what actually I wrote made no sense -- hopefully the change clarifies it) was that very few people do either of these things with Lindsay. They don't take Lindsay's singing or acting seriously (like in the review I linked; it's not so much that Lindsay's a bad actress, but that she doesn't deserve to be considered as an actress at all!) but they also take her, Lindsay the celebrity, VERY seriously, arms crossed, and they don't assume that she's funny or smart or self-aware enough not to be completely literal in, say, "Rumors." Or a magazine interview. "Confessions" is different, but it also isn't a representative example of her music and still needs to be understood in the context of her other work (and, like Lex said, the fact that the tabloid stuff was part of that context in this case can complicate reception of it, too).

― nameom (nameom), Thursday, 25 January 2007 13:27 (6 years ago) Permalink

Heh, relevant to this, Lohan is nominated for a Razzie (the anti-Oscars that go to the worst of the year in film) for worst acress of the year for Just My Luck, which I've never seen. People don't take Lindsay the actress seriously because they don't take comedies and teen movies seriously. They don't take her as a singer seriously because she doesn't seem to take it seriously herself.

― Greg Fanoe (JustFanoe), Thursday, 25 January 2007 13:33 (6 years ago) Permalink

haha, i know what you're saying, but this is ironic because lindsay's vocal srategy is heavily earnest, even when she's being funny - on the second album it's heavily cathartic and, as she tells us, RAW. (more playful on the first album.) whereas j-lo's vocals are the epitome of botherd-about-this can-we-hurry-up-my-car-is-waiting detachment. (both are v good at what they do.)

they also take her, Lindsay the celebrity, VERY seriously

people have odd attitudes towards celebrity - it seems to be treated in common parlance as some sort of prize, which one has to prove oneself for, by either obvious hard graft or obvious talent, and people like lindsay lohan, paris hilton, and jade goody (recently-disgraced-due-to-vile-bullying-and-racism uk reality tv star) are castigated by somehow being celebrities while sailing merrily and uncaringly through a series of parties and public appearances.

("singing teenpop songs" never seems to equate to "obvious talent" unless the singer has xtina-level pipes; lohan's acting DOES but she doesn't do enough of it) (i cannot believe i have yet to see mean girls)

― lex pretend (lex pretend), Thursday, 25 January 2007 13:36 (6 years ago) Permalink

(oh, and the seriously in "VERY seriously" above is not the same as "taking her seriously," hence more confusion! More like...arms-crossedly. Judgmentally.)

― nameom (nameom), Thursday, 25 January 2007 14:04 (6 years ago) Permalink

I just think "Phil of the Future" is a bad show, and I find Aly M.'s farce-based mugging in it to be kind of adorable, because she looks like a cute teenage Muppet, but ultimately nothing special. I might be prejudiced against it because I'm so sick of that show argh kids put it on all the time that caveman character is annoying I hate the fake-Moby teacher Disney on while I'm trying to get someone to set the damn table I'm in the kitchen slaving away after a long day of work and I have to see Ricky Ullman doing that one thing again blah. I like Pim though.

And, for me, LL has only had three and a half good roles. (Granted, I haven't seen A Prairie Home Companion yet.)

― Haikunym (Haikunym), Thursday, 25 January 2007 14:31 (6 years ago) Permalink

3 and 1/2 good roles before you're 18 is pretty goood, no?

Just My Luck was awful--the screenplay was the culprit. But even then, Lohan totally, almos recklessly, invested herself in it.

It was rather charming when she went on jay Leno and did everything she could do NOT to talk about it--her whole vibe screamed 'contractual obligation' and 'God, thos ine sucked'.

― Grey, Ian (IanBrooklyn), Thursday, 25 January 2007 17:35 (6 years ago) Permalink

Posted these last year on the Rolling 2006 U.S. Charts thread, putting them here basically for my own convenience: The links take you to the Mediabase airplay charts covering the previous seven days.

country

country w/ recurrents

mainstream top 40

mainstream top 40 w/ recurrents

Christian AC

Christian AC w/ recurrents

mainstream urban

mainstream urban w/ recurrents

alternative

alternative w/ recurrents

AC overall

AC overall w/ recurrents

CHR/pop (These are now labeled "Top 40" and are basically the same as the "mainstream top 40 lists," which are also labeled "Top 40" but have slightly different totals)

CHR/pop w/ recurrents(ditto)

CHR Rhythmic

CHR Rhythmic w/ recurrents

active rock

active rock w/ recurrents

Limitations of these numbers: Obviously, they only take into account stations that report to Mediabase, and the rankings are based on total plays without regard to the size of the listenership or what time of day a song is played (though info on that is included in the chart).

The basic Mediabase URL is http://w2.mediabase.com/mmrweb/AllAccess.

For KDIS in Los Angeles, click on "7-Day Reports," click on "Station Playlists," tick "Station" rather than "Market," then type in "KDIS" and hit "Go," then click on "7-Day Playlist" on the right. Radio Disney has 51 affiliates, I think, so multiply each song's number by 51 to get national plays.

If you want to know whois playing a song, find it on some list and then click on the song. For instance, if you go to the "mainstream top 40" list you see that Avril Lavigne's "Keep Holding On" is 25th with 2,134 plays. If you click on "Keep Holding On," you get a list of the 50 stations in the genre ("mainstream top 40") that are playing it the most. She's doing pretty well in Salt Lake City, Raleigh, and Wilkes-Barre. (If you want to see who's playing her in different formats, choose another format.)

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Thursday, 25 January 2007 18:31 (6 years ago) Permalink

but they also take her, Lindsay the celebrity, VERY seriously, arms crossed

"Celebrity" being a modern-day analogue to what "juvenile delinquent" was in the the '50s, perhaps? (E.g., mainstream culture didn't take rock 'n' roll seriously as music but did take it seriously as a potential cause of vandalism and crime. And now pop - with the aid of reality TV - is a potential cause of celebrity.)

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Thursday, 25 January 2007 18:47 (6 years ago) Permalink

(But if you click on the blue headers, Mediabase will reorder by that category: e.g., if you click on the blue "aud/mill" at the top left of the top 40 chart, you'll see that Rihanna's "Break It Off," while only eighth in total plays, is fourth in total listeners.)

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Thursday, 25 January 2007 18:58 (6 years ago) Permalink

top right of the top 40 chart, that is

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Thursday, 25 January 2007 18:59 (6 years ago) Permalink

(And Mediabase's home page seems to be down at the moment, so I can't find my way to KDIS.)

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Thursday, 25 January 2007 19:06 (6 years ago) Permalink

ah 'break it off' is wonderful!

― lex pretend (lex pretend), Thursday, 25 January 2007 19:08 (6 years ago) Permalink

(If you go to www.allaccess.com, you get a lot of the same info that you get from the Mediabase site, since All Access and Mediabase are affiliated. You have to register (which is free) to use the site's search engine, which'll take you to KDIS, but a lot of other info is available even if you don't log in. Two new songs in the KDIS top 50: Kyle Massey's "Rollin' To D.C." with 18 plays, and Vanessa Hudgens' "Say OK" with 16 plays. Corbin Bleu's "Push It To The Limit" is number one with 79 plays. Avril Lavigne's "Keep Holdin' On" is a weak 28th, with 23 plays.)

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Thursday, 25 January 2007 19:23 (6 years ago) Permalink

"Say OK" is probably going to go #1 on RD. They were going to put it in the mailbag for about two seconds and then replaced with that Everlife song. But they probably realized that Hollywood-Vanessa doesn't need as much help as Hollywood-Everlife (Vannessa's going top 3 in daily voting, should be in the top 10 this week or next).

― nameom (nameom), Thursday, 25 January 2007 22:29 (6 years ago) Permalink

"Celebrity" being a modern-day analogue to what "juvenile delinquent" was in the the '50s, perhaps?

Forget where it was (Poptimists?) but there was a discussion about artists coding male/female, and about the new crop of emo rock stars trying to have it both ways (or something)...anyway, I think the idea was floated, or at least I took from it, that Lindsay Lohan and Paris Hilton were the only two unapologetic rock stars to make any kind of impact in 2006 (Lindsay maybe tail-end of '05?), with Britney on the back-burner since it's been a while since she recorded anything.

― nameom (nameom), Thursday, 25 January 2007 22:32 (6 years ago) Permalink

Lindsay Lohan made an impact on rock music in 2006? That album totally didn't register on me.

― Mordechai Shinefield (Mordy), Friday, 26 January 2007 01:36 (6 years ago) Permalink

I guess I just mean acting like a rock star in public (Paris didn't do so hot with, like album sales). Maybe Britney's not on the back burner at all as far as that goes. One question is what exactly I'm getting at when I use ROCK STAR to describe them. A certain brazenness, a way elevating one's personality to a defiant sort of iconic status (I'm not saying the artists necessarily construct their image as this -- more of a combination of presentation/construction and shared reception), the rebel star. Most male performers I can think of that try to do this are too ironic or too arty or too...dorky. Or trying too hard.

― nameom (nameom), Friday, 26 January 2007 02:14 (6 years ago) Permalink

But according to certain experts,* Paris Hilton and Lindsay Lohan are the very definition of trying too damn hard to be ROCK STARS.

*Me.

― Haikunym (Haikunym), Friday, 26 January 2007 02:26 (6 years ago) Permalink

I think Paris and, to a lesser extent, Lindsay are iconic for sure--but I don't think that alone qualifies them as rock stars. The thing about rock icons, Mick Jagger or Debbie Harry or whoever, is that they either present an image of not wanting to present an image ("They're genuine!"), or if they do want to present an image, it's as negative an image as possible.

Paris and Lindsay are too apologetic. Rock stars don't play dumb and then insist they're smart, or confess to eating disorders and then take it all back. Britney comes closest to the kind of iconic, defiant rock stardom you're talking about, Dave, in that she seems to really not give a shit.

― Nia (girlboymusic), Friday, 26 January 2007 03:33 (6 years ago) Permalink

Rock stars can be apologetic, or play the dumb/smart game, or anything they want to -- if and only if they make rock music that a lot of people want to hear. Paris does pop music, and people don't want to hear LL do that thing where she screams a couple times during a pop ballad and thinks she's rocking. Britney Spears is not a rock star just because she flashes some cooch. (She has also apologized and promised to turn over a new leaf, or at least buy some underwear.)

Not that I really value the rock star archetype. I'm just saying. I'm also saying that I have erred by helping to prolong a discussion that is way past its sell-by date.

― Haikunym (Haikunym), Friday, 26 January 2007 03:44 (6 years ago) Permalink

Wait, are talking rock star as in rock musician, or rock star as in rock persona? Because I believe that's what Dave was getting at--Paris and Lindsay were brought up as the only performers who behave a certain way, not the only performers who make a certain kind of music. (Which, again, I disagree, but still.)

Who are these "people" who don't want to Lindsay do that thing? Somebody bought her album. I'd also argue that plenty of people don't want to hear Mick Jagger, either--is that relevant to whether or not he's a rock icon?

Britney's apology was not really an apology. "Ha ha, sorry I didn't wear panties, y'all! But seriously, I'm just gonna go fuckin' crazy for a while. Laterz."

― Nia (girlboymusic), Friday, 26 January 2007 04:17 (6 years ago) Permalink

...don't want to hear Lindsay do that thing, is what I meant to type.

― Nia (girlboymusic), Friday, 26 January 2007 04:19 (6 years ago) Permalink

1. I know what Dave's point was but I reserve my right to recontextualize it by taking it at face value, god damn it. And I think they're acting like Brat Packers instead of Rock Stars anyway. They don't tour, they don't have to go to shitholes in Flyoverland, they aren't struggling with their muses. They're just airing their ladybits and talking shit about Scarlett Johannson. Hell, even I could do that, if I had ladybits.

2. What was more popular, dance-pop Lohan or emo Lohan, is my point.

3. Check the record, yo. Just neglecting your children doesn't make you Courtney Love.

― Haikunym (Haikunym), Friday, 26 January 2007 04:49 (6 years ago) Permalink

Teenpop != Rock Star? Or can they both exist simultaneously?

― Mordechai Shinefield (Mordy), Friday, 26 January 2007 05:02 (6 years ago) Permalink

rockstars: David Cassidy, Young Michael Jackson, Avril Lavigne.

― Haikunym (Haikunym), Friday, 26 January 2007 05:04 (6 years ago) Permalink

Also - what does it mean if Lohan has a 'Rock Star' persona or not. This might be way New Critical of me - but shouldn't the album *also* have to stand on its own? You can ask if the pose is on the songs, I guess.

― Mordechai Shinefield (Mordy), Friday, 26 January 2007 05:05 (6 years ago) Permalink

I think what I might also be asking is: What does 'rock star' mean, and what's its value for understanding the music?

― Mordechai Shinefield (Mordy), Friday, 26 January 2007 05:06 (6 years ago) Permalink

1. Point taken.

2. So if she's not popular when acting rock-y, she's not actually acting rock-y? Also, if you close your eyes, people can't see you. It's true!

3. Yeah, but neglecting your kids and getting lots of plastic surgery does. Dropping a baby is TOTALLY rock-n-roll, dude!

― Nia (girlboymusic), Friday, 26 January 2007 05:16 (6 years ago) Permalink

Meng are endangered species in pop

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Friday, 26 January 2007 06:24 (6 years ago) Permalink

Nia I think you are on the verge of making some good points but you are not reading me very carefully on point #2 so I am giving up.

― Haikunym (Haikunym), Friday, 26 January 2007 12:04 (6 years ago) Permalink

Previous reports were false: the new Hilary Duff album will be called...DIGNITY.

― nameom (nameom), Friday, 26 January 2007 18:11 (6 years ago) Permalink

Razzies noms:

Vying with Stone for Worst Actress will be repeat offender Jessica Simpson (nominated this year for EMPLOYEE OF THE MONTH), teen-idol (and terrible role model) Lindsay Lohan in JUST MY LUCK, newcomer Kristanna Loken in BLOODRAYNE and spelling-challenged risible siblings Hilary and Haylie Duff in MATERIALS GIRLS.

― nameom (nameom), Friday, 26 January 2007 18:15 (6 years ago) Permalink

Has anyone heard Youtube girl Mia Rose?

What I heard, I liked. Though I'm not sure what makes her special -- didn't we also make the Arctic Monkeys famous? Or is Youtube more special than Myspace?

― Mordechai Shinefield (Mordy), Friday, 26 January 2007 19:15 (6 years ago) Permalink

Ouch. I botched that link.

http://www.rollingstone.com/rockdaily/index.php/2007/01/25/youtube-phenom-mia-rose-has-her-thorns/

― Mordechai Shinefield (Mordy), Friday, 26 January 2007 19:15 (6 years ago) Permalink

Mandy Barry, a talent whom Dave Bedbug found on MySpace: best tracks are the third ("bonus snippet) and the fourth, "No More," which she lets you download. Pinkish voice, an r&b bruise in it, she'll sometimes use rock instrumentation but always keeps the vocals rhythm & bruise. Unnecessarily tangles herself up in fire metaphors: "I've been put through the fire/To the point that I'm tired" (which seems an odd use of the metaphor, finding fire tiring)(unless you're a professional firefighter); she's been burned; and the love is ashes, no more flames (but didn't we establish that the flames were exhausting anyway?). But that's little matter (she can always hire a lyricist). The fuzz guitars and bruised voices push back and forth at each other, an insistent rhythm of weariness and defiance.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Saturday, 27 January 2007 00:45 (6 years ago) Permalink

Mia Rose's persona is cheery and giggly (I go more for Ava Gardner in Mogambo, the wisecracking sharpie with a lot going on inside), but cheery and giggly can be art, and is a reasonable choice. I mean, it takes all types, and I don't find her offensive. As for the music, the soft voice at the end is the best part; she's too bright-voiced earlier, but she can work on that. Or maybe she wants to be bright-voiced. If I were an investor I wouldn't sink money into her, because I don't think she's good enough, but what do I know? (Rest of the online discussion, which I got bored with and only skimmed, was about whether her name's a fake, whether YouTube viewing figures were being manipulated, if they are, whether this undercuts YouTube and the Net [why would it?], whether she's real, etc.)

The Stone writeup on Mia Rose is coyer and more irritating than she is, but in a dull journalistic way that tries to hide its tracks. "In the last few weeks, vlogs from Mia Rose, a disturbingly well-packaged 18-year-old singer-songwriter, have become some of the most-viewed videos on YouTube. Rose is a well-scrubbed but coy girl-next-door with decent guitar skills, a welcome-to-Hollywood worthy voice and a knack for bearing her midriff without seeming trashy (harder than it looks)." "Obviously this girl is manipulating the YouTube system for her own gain, but is there anything wrong with that?" Well, Elizabeth, I don't know, you're the one who called her "disturbingly well-packaged." Why don't you tell us why you think there's something wrong with it, rather than suggesting that there is and then covering your ass by rhetorically implying there isn't, and not giving a single reason one way or another? "And what do you think of the tunes?" Well, Elizabeth, what do you think of them? Pretend social analysis, pretending to rise above the slime sell while being a dull little slime sell all its own. Journalism seems full of this.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Saturday, 27 January 2007 01:29 (6 years ago) Permalink

Linda Sundblad's excellent "Lose You" has jumped to number two in Sweden. Linda was formerly in unheard-by-me Lambretta. In her previous single, "Oh Father," she asks God if the fact that she touches herself means she won't get to heaven. In this one, she's found a guy who is heaven, makes everything steamy and nice; from this she knows she'll lose him. I also recommend "Cheat," which seems to endorse the right to be murdered for infidelity.

(Writers of "Lose You" are Linda Sundblad, Tobias Karlsson, Alexander Kronlund, Klas Åhlund, the last of whom is in Teddybears STHLM and produced a lot of the most recent Robyn album. Producer of "Lose You" is Tobias Karlsson.)

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Saturday, 27 January 2007 23:09 (6 years ago) Permalink

Thanks, Frank. That was definitely my reaction to the RS piece too. "Disturbingly well-packaged..." What exactly makes being well-packaged disturbing?

Anyway, I enjoyed a couple of the songs that were posted, and didn't like a few others. I think there is definitely something charismatic about the girl - very sincere. And part of why her music is interesting is because of that personality. And I think that her circumventing of the traditional artist/audience divide (which isn't unique, but nonetheless) is very charming. Though I think the question of "is she for real?" is important, just not for the reasons that RS states. I think it's important because a lot of her appeal is her authenticity - not because it's undermining expectations if she's not. (And if it turns out she's not 'real,' whatever that means, she'll be interesting for that reason instead.)

― Mordechai Shinefield (Mordy), Sunday, 28 January 2007 00:13 (6 years ago) Permalink

We're the rebels, causing trouble
Beat us up, we don't care
We're the babies, born in the '80s
Put your hands in the air

Posing pirates, pink perky riots
Big D.P. bottles about to pop
Flamboyant peacocks, straight out of detox
And total chaos, it never stops... right?
--Linda Sundblad "Pretty Rebels"

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Sunday, 28 January 2007 01:00 (6 years ago) Permalink

Songwriters of "Pretty Rebels": Linda Sundblad, Tobias Karlsson, Alexander Kronlund, Max Martin. Producer: Tobias Karlsson. (Excellent echo effects, which make her sound like a gang in conversation with itself.)

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Sunday, 28 January 2007 01:06 (6 years ago) Permalink

Oh yeah, the question "is she real?" is important (I'm not one of the people who thinks "Oh, ho hum, it's time to get over thinking about authenticity), but not the question whether Mia Rose's name is the one on her birth certificate, which is what some of the commenters were going on about. There's also a question as to whether she might be an actress playing Mia Rose (as opposed to a girl who's taking on the performing persona Mia Rose, as Bob Zimmerman took on the performing persona Bob Dylan; though actress playing a role and person taking on a persona, not to mention person presenting herself to others in the normal course of life, aren't different orders of being from one another, and one can bleed into the other). As for the question of "realness," when people ask it they don't seem to know what they're asking, or why they're asking it, though the Hero Story I've alluded to on my livejournal has little to do one way or another with whether someone makes calculations and adopts poses, but rather whether one takes risks and courts opposition.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Sunday, 28 January 2007 01:24 (6 years ago) Permalink

Isn't that the issue with asking "is she real" though Frank? The fact that people use it to ask the wrong (or, rather, muddled) questions, while the right questions can be asked using different words?

― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Sunday, 28 January 2007 01:49 (6 years ago) Permalink

Tim, in the context of the question, it's obvious what they're asking. RS is clearly asking: Is this a corporate employed woman or authentically a DIY normal YouTube user? If someone was saying the same thing about Hillary Duff, they might mean a different kind of 'real' (ie: is she responsible for her own image?). About Paris Hilton, you might have a variation on that - or merely the question: Is this serious art? ('real' becoming synonymous with 'serious' - the quotations on serious indicated that's once again according to the asker of the question.)

If RS asked the first question outright, would you still consider it muddled?

― Mordechai Shinefield (Mordy), Sunday, 28 January 2007 04:09 (6 years ago) Permalink

Wait a minute, though, the concerns about Mia Rose are very specific -- an outside source is creating dummy accounts on Youtube to inflate her "subscriptions." Anyone could technically do this, so in that sense it doesn't "undercut" anything, but it still understandably rubs Youtube users the wrong way.

If it is a marketing plan by a major label (or something) it was pretty poorly thought out since Youtube tracks the number of videos you watch, making inflation transparent to anyone patient enough to compile a montage of it happening (that's a link from Idolator, less nasty write-up than the RS one). So I can't say that the "anti-manufactured" tone is justified, but it is justifiable to say that whoever's aiding her popularity is doing it by creating the false appearance of grassroots democratic consensus. I'll bet it offends people as vote-tampering as much as it might as a "just another coporate manufactured pop star" story.

― nameom (nameom), Sunday, 28 January 2007 07:13 (6 years ago) Permalink

The Youtube commenters to the video I linked are more to the point:

kokokokoii (12 hours ago)
no matter what was really going out there, these are what possible to happen in the future:

1)She is a cheater, and will never release any album.
2)Her is talent and has a attractive voice. There will be a company to contact her soon.

The reason for one to subscribe is because of her singing not the numbers or ratings. Why you wasted you time doing this?

― nameom (nameom), Sunday, 28 January 2007 07:17 (6 years ago) Permalink

Well -- I understand why she cheated. Even if she's got a beautiful voice (I think it's pretty) and good songwriting chops (I find them enjoyable) -- it's hard to get heard. Obviously it's easier than ever, but I imagine with the thousands of myspace babies, it's still harder to get recognized than you think. If this isn't corporate, it's a good way to get buzz (and from what I understand, music companies are in contact with her). If it's corporate done - it's odd. Why not just go the normal route? The dummy accounts aren't /actual/ people buying albums.

― Mordechai Shinefield (Mordy), Sunday, 28 January 2007 07:46 (6 years ago) Permalink

I think the Rolling Stone woman, Elizabeth Goodman, had some potentially good questions to ask, but she was too busy trying to convey attitude via code words - "a knack for [baring] her midriff without seeming trashy (harder than it looks)" (by which Elizabeth is suggesting something, but not being clear what it is) - rather than genuinely saying what she was trying to say and figuring out what she wanted to ask. What's wrong with Elizabeth Goodman that she feels that she has to do this, perhaps doesn't even know that she's doing it, it's so standard in journalism?

It was the commenters, not Elizabeth, who brought up the dummy sites and the inflated subscriptions (unless Elizabeth was using her code words to try to suggest those, as well). I think that the - good - question she's trying to ask isn't "Is Mia diy or is she corporate?" but rather "No matter whether Mia is an actress playing a part, a singer coached on how to present herself, or someone who's in charge of her own presentation - or is even guilelessly being 'herself' - what's wrong with her trying to appeal to an audience?" This is a good question because sometimes there is something wrong, and also there's a deep culture-wide uneasiness with anything being straight-up appealing, as if pleasing an audience contaminates you.

As to the first point (whether there's sometimes something wrong), I think there's something wrong with the way Elizabeth Goodman is trying to appeal to her readers, so I'm not averse in principle to claims that there's something wrong with how Mia Rose is trying to appeal to viewers. As to the second point (a culture-wide uneasiness, that I share), that's what a good deal of my book is about, and so I hope that if you find my posts appealing you'll go out and buy my book (I get a dollar for every copy sold, and I need the money).

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Sunday, 28 January 2007 21:38 (6 years ago) Permalink

Tim, "real" and "fake" are fine words that I use all the time. "Pretend social analysis, pretending to rise above the slime sell while being a dull little slime sell all its own."
If I'm willing to say this, then I must also think that there's real social analysis that's worth doing and worth distinguishing from the fake, and that slime sells can at least sometimes be bad things. If Elizabeth Goodman is for real, she'll make her way to real social analysis. (Haven't read another word of hers, so for all I know, she's gotten there, though I wouldn't bet on it.) Tim, what words would you have me use?

There's no inherent problem with the question "Is she real?" The problems arise because the reasons given to justify the answer "No" raise a whole bunch of questions themselves, and most people are intellectually lazy and don't ask the follow-up questions. But the problem isn't with the original question.

Another good question is why the question "Is she real?" keeps popping up throughout pop culture. If you dislike the question "Is she real?" you nonetheless will want to ask why the question is so persistent. Why are people asking it?

If someone claims that the Monkees are phonies because "they don't write their own songs" [incredibly, people still say this], the obvious follow-up question would be, "well, if I consider the Monkees fake for not writing their own songs, why don't I think the Animals and Aretha Franklin - who've hit with songs by the very same songwriters the Monkees used - are also fake?" (I've never in my life heard someone argue that the Animals and Aretha Franklin were fake for not writing "It's My Life" and "We Gotta Get Out Of This Place" and "Don't Bring Me Down" and "Natural Woman.") In the mid-Sixties an answer to the follow-up question might have been, "Aretha's real because she's black and sings the music soul; the Animals are real because they come on like hoods" - these responses, in their time, would not have been dumb at all, but are so problematic that they'd have inevitably provoked further thought.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Sunday, 28 January 2007 22:22 (6 years ago) Permalink

"...sings the music with soul"

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Sunday, 28 January 2007 22:24 (6 years ago) Permalink

Lloyd's song "You" f. Lil Wayne - also seen it called "Want You" - has been kicking around since late summer but is still rising on the charts: number two with a bullet on the hip-hop/r&b stations, number two with a bullet on the urban stations, number forty-three with a bullet on the Top 40 stations, number seventeen with a bullet on the Billboard Hot 100. Don't know how much further it'll spread; hasn't made the jump to adult contemporary, damned if I know why not. Lloyd's young enough - 21 - for it to go Disney, if anyone there wants it, though RD might find Wayne's rapping too much of a problem. But the song sure deserves its airplay: it's far more luscious and gorgeous than the Spandau Ballet track it samples, Wayne is clever ("I ain't talkin' fast/it's just you listenin' slow"), and Lloyd is impassioned. My friend Elizabeth Shaw, in San Francisco, would tell me that kissy male r&b like this is a Great Lie that she'd once believed: that men would have these gorgeous high feelings of pain and devotion towards a woman.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Sunday, 28 January 2007 22:50 (6 years ago) Permalink

Radio Disney's tendencies towards aesthetic and moral bankruptcy are exemplified by the following brutal fact:

THEY NEVER PLAY WEBSTAR F. YOUNG B'S "CHICKEN NOODLE SOUP."

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Monday, 29 January 2007 03:26 (6 years ago) Permalink

Rolling RD 1-29-07: Top 30 So exciting! Oh wait, it's like exactly the same. "Say OK" debuts at #19, should go top ten in a week or so. Still no sign of Webstar/Young B (or Hilary, whose "With Love" is technically eligible for voting but as of yet hasn't received any promotion at all). Mailbag Kyle Massey's theme song to his Disney Channel comedy spin-off "Cory in the House" (that's the White House) not sure if it was picked or kicked (probably picked, don't care enough to wait to find out). Kinda dull round these parts lately, might be time to go once every two weeks.

― nameom (nameom), Monday, 29 January 2007 04:27 (6 years ago) Permalink

I like "Say OK" a lot, but maybe constant RD airplay will make me tire of it. May make my year end top 50. Of the 2007 singles I've heard so far this year, only Sophie Ellis Bextor's "Catch You" do I like better (I still haven't heard Linda Sunbladt). Ugh, new Kyle Massey theme song is really bad. Or not really bad, but really mediocre.

No promotion at all for "Play With Fire" and now none for "With Love" either. I'm hoping, and choosing to believe, that they are waiting until it is closer to the release of the album before they start to push the songs hard. Maybe the sound of it is just so anti-American pop that they are just going to punt it in America.

― Greg Fanoe (JustFanoe), Monday, 29 January 2007 15:31 (6 years ago) Permalink

Amy Winehouse - You Know I'm No Good

I know.

― Mordechai Shinefield (Mordy), Monday, 29 January 2007 19:21 (6 years ago) Permalink

Actually, come to think of it, "With Love" is my favorite single of the year so far. Surely Kelly Clarkson's singles will put it to shame though!

― Greg Fanoe (JustFanoe), Monday, 29 January 2007 21:01 (6 years ago) Permalink

the concerns about Mia Rose are very specific -- an outside source is creating dummy accounts on Youtube to inflate her "subscriptions." Anyone could technically do this, so in that sense it doesn't "undercut" anything, but it still understandably rubs Youtube users the wrong way.

other things wannabe pop stars and record companies can and do in fact do do: write their own reviews of their first records and send them to fanzines under pesudonyms (monster magnet did this, and i salute them for it; then again, monster magnet probably flunk every "authenticity" test you could come up with) ... "leak" their own records to the internet (pretty much every record company does this to one degree or another) ... request their own records on radio or anywhere else requests are taken (again, the whole industry can stand up and plead guilty to that one) ... acquire lots of "friends" in myspace who aren't really your "friends" and may not even have a clue who you are ... and so on and so forth. if mia rose is better at playing this game than other wannabe pop stars, then more power to her. in the end, either she's got it or she doesn't (i haven't heard a note yet), but what do a few thousand dummy accounts on youtube have to do with anything?

― fact checking cuz (fcc), Monday, 29 January 2007 21:19 (6 years ago) Permalink

(that was a lot of do's in my first sentence!)

― fact checking cuz (fcc), Monday, 29 January 2007 21:20 (6 years ago) Permalink

I basically agree with you, and I don't really care about Youtube inflation (just like I don't really care about payola or anything you mentioned). I care more about why and how certain artists implicated in certain questionable institutional schemes/scams are called out (and why/how others aren't), which is where Elizabeth Goodman and Rolling Stone comes in (and which is where I'm chickening out in this conversation because I don't think Mia Rose is worth it!). But all of the things you mentioned could understandably raise eyebrows -- it goes against the hero story of the triumph of democratic consumer choices (or something).

One thing that's interesting about Radio Disney is that, despite the fact that they could completely ignore their audience and plug whatever they feel like -- and I guess I have no proof they don't until I can figure out what they could possibly gain from keeping Hampton or Cha Cha or Crazy Frog in the countdown without popular support (maybe Disney owns the rights or something?) -- they do seem to actually count the votes. But they transparently stack the deck in just about every other way they possibly can.

― nameom (nameom), Monday, 29 January 2007 22:38 (6 years ago) Permalink

I just realized that nobody's yet posted the full video for "With Love", by Hilary Duff. So here it is. I'm loving it.

― Greg Fanoe (JustFanoe), Tuesday, 30 January 2007 00:24 (6 years ago) Permalink

Lily Allen's Alright, Still being streamed this week on the AOL Listening Party. There are a couple of tracks I've never heard a studio version of.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Tuesday, 30 January 2007 06:40 (6 years ago) Permalink

If the US release of the album means we get to do Lily Allen over, I'd like to revise my order of favorite songs from Smile - LDN - Friday Night to Friday Night - LDN - Smile. For all intent, LDN beat Smile, and then Friday Night was a come from behind take-all winner. And for some reason, talking about Lily Allen's songs in terms of some kind of contest to be the best makes perfect sense to me. (Actually, talking about Lily Allen only makes sense to me as an active conversation - something is always *happening* in Lily's songs. Even in LDN, where she's observing, she's walking around to do so.)

― Mordechai Shinefield (Mordy), Tuesday, 30 January 2007 08:21 (6 years ago) Permalink

Also, cause American Idol is tomorrow - here are some contestants I've loved so far that I think fit into the scope of this thread:
Jory Steinberg: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGdcX5JQgM0 (Tina Arena: "Chains")
Sarah Burgess: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Uz1BbMpgJo
Porcelana Patino: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6P_z_1RpgI

Actually, one really interesting thing going on - particularly contrasting Burgess + Porcelana. Burgess lays it all out in the audition - her narrative is really out there. She's the hard luck girl, whose family isn't standing behind her. Porcelana keeps a little more back - because you know she's gotten here also against the odds, but it's not laid out there. Something is held back. You can hear it in Porcelana's voice, too. It sounds wearied - like it's been wrestling with life. That's why I'm rooting for Porcelana as my number one pick so far (but it'll definitely be an underdog rooting).

So yeah -- you might notice that all these people are from NY. That's cause... hometown pride. Heh. Actually, it's mostly because of Porcelana - who I've been searching for her name and only found tonight. So if you don't watch any of the others, watch hers. It's really great.

― Mordechai Shinefield (Mordy), Tuesday, 30 January 2007 08:37 (6 years ago) Permalink

Album from Katharine McPhee, last year's American Idol runner-up, is one of the other albs being streamed at the AOL Listening Party. I'm on the fourth track, and I've enjoyed what I've heard, including the ballad, "Home"! "Up-tempo, sultry r&b" says AOL. Strong voice, so she/they are going for punch à la Kelly, Whitney, though she's not pushing the melisma as hard as people like her often do.

I'm on track five, which is the first one that makes me shrug, though it's not a bad dance track. In fact, as it's fading out, I'm feeling it more, a warm after-image. But now track six is really making me shrug. Slow jam. Doesn't have anything insinuatingly catchy, like, say, Ciara's "Promise" does. McPhee does seem anonymous, which isn't necessarily a criticism. Track seven, "Dangerous," is passionate, and I'm picking up. Chords of the verse initially reminded me of "Happy Together"/"Wild World"/"It's A Sin"/"Come Into My Arms," but they don't hold onto the pattern, unfortunately. Or maybe it wasn't there in the first place. Uh oh, Track eight starts off with sensitive piano. Her voice is warm, however. Something slightly Scottish sounding in the chorus. Or maybe that's in my imagination. Haven't heard a great song yet. Um, track nine, she's suddenly trying to be Kelis. A club banger. Also a shrugger. Her anonymity is going to hurt sales. Enjoying this overall, somewhat, but haven't come close to caring. Constant play of a hit could change that. Track ten, "Better Off Alone," warmth: early '90s mainstream r&bish slow pop may be her strength.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Tuesday, 30 January 2007 16:02 (6 years ago) Permalink

omg i am going to watch that porcelana patino video as soon as i get home just because of her name! PORCELANA PATINO!!!!

― lex pretend (lex pretend), Tuesday, 30 January 2007 16:04 (6 years ago) Permalink

(McPhee ends up overall as only a bit above a shrug, though as I said a hit could turn me around, as could a further listen, though I doubt I'll give it one during the rest of its week on the board. There's Travis Tritt to explore.)

(Both the Natalie Cole and the Clint Black albums are entitled Love Songs. Unless AOL made a goof.)

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Tuesday, 30 January 2007 16:28 (6 years ago) Permalink

clint's is called THE love songs. but they're both valentine-themed compilations, so why not?

― fact checking cuz (fcc), Tuesday, 30 January 2007 17:36 (6 years ago) Permalink

on the other hand, advertising a concert as an evening of music by the jam and then standing by silently as your own fans trade tickets for hundreds if not thousands of dollars, and then playing exactly 10 jam songs as part of a 27-song set -- i'm talking to you, ex-teen-popper paul weller -- that is wrong and evil and i hope he woke up this morning feeling like the dick that he is. i didn't go because i hate that kind of nostalgia as much as weller told the fans at last night's show that he hates nostalgia. but i'm not the one going around trying to drum up interest in my shitty little u.s. tour by lying about what i'm going to play. may he never sell out a show again.

― fact checking cuz (fcc), Tuesday, 30 January 2007 18:21 (6 years ago) Permalink

From a comment on a RS submission:
http://www.rollingstone.com/imfromrollingstone/index.php/2007/01/26/assignment-three-finalist-lauren-glucksman-on-amy-winehouse-new-york-city/

"Anyone from the first hearing of Amy belt out a lyric with such rich soulful intensity knows that this woman is not from this era. She is effortless in her delivery and I love your comment about “confident without any obnoxiousness.” It is this quality that makes her work hauntingly genuine. Good article Lauren. Be very grateful for this opportunity to review genius like Amy. She as well as you are being watched very closely by this fan. Take care."

The comment was written by someone named Valton Morgan.

"Every step you take... every move you make..."

― Mordechai Shinefield (Mordy), Tuesday, 30 January 2007 18:36 (6 years ago) Permalink

I liked Katharine McPhee a lot on American Idol, and she had plenty of personality on the show. Both in the speaking segments and in her singing voice. But I agree that her recorded voice lacks personality and distinction. A bit of a letdown from this album. I like the Jojo ripoff first single though.

I love American Idol but just can't stomach the auditions. For fun, here are my favorite contestants by season. This is based entirely on what they did on the show, not what they did afterwards:

1 - Kelly
2 - Didn't really care for anybody
3 - JPL
4 - Jessica Sierra (boo, America!), Carrie Underwood
5 - McPhee

― Greg Fanoe (JustFanoe), Tuesday, 30 January 2007 19:51 (6 years ago) Permalink

Oh, forgot about this but Julianne Shepard did a column on Amy the other week. She (Amy) digs the Shangri-Las.

Winehouse loves the dramatics and borderline creepiness of 1960s girl groups, of which "He Hit Me " is an extreme example. It's an influence you can hear in the tambourines and innocent snaps of her new album, Back to Black. "My favorite band of all time is probably the Shangri-La's," says Winehouse. "I love them because they were kids, and it's so emotional. Loads of sound effects, loads of lyrics like, 'My boyfriend's so fine and I'm gonna kill myself for him' and ‘I'm gonna die' and oh, I love it, I love it."

The Shangri-La's sound oppressed by love, bound by expectations, suicidal in their devotion. It's the difficult parts about them that informed Frank.

― nameom (nameom), Wednesday, 31 January 2007 02:43 (6 years ago) Permalink

Yeah, apparently the Shangri-Las have influenced her hairdos or something (see also: B-52s and Gore Gore Girls, both of whom are about a million times more fun than Amy is.) The musical comparison that's rung the most true to me, though (even more than Lauryn Hill) was Amy Linden mentioning Fiona Apple in her Voice review of Winehouse's New York shows a couple weeks ago. (For what it's worth, I've never remotely understood the appeal of Fiona, either. The Shangri-Las' appeal I've never had a problem with.)

― xhuxk (xhuck), Wednesday, 31 January 2007 12:52 (6 years ago) Permalink

Here's said review (which actually mentioned the Ronettes, not the Shangri-Las. But they both had big hair, right?):

http://www.villagevoice.com/music/0704,linden,75600,22.html

― xhuxk (xhuck), Wednesday, 31 January 2007 13:01 (6 years ago) Permalink

Saw a preview of Because I Said So last night, new Diane Keaton/Mandy Moore flick. It was pretty awful, but in two scenes Mandy sets the stage for her authentic makeover. From the movie I thought she'd go more soul/diva, but it sounds like she's making a singer-songwriter sensistive move. New track at her Myspace called "Extraordinary." But I like it better the way Darin put it in his single "Extraordinary Love," which he sings as "extra ordinary" -- even more ordinary than usual.

― nameom (nameom), Wednesday, 31 January 2007 18:04 (6 years ago) Permalink

1. Re: Mandy Moore - The move doesn't really surprise me that much Dave. Mandy has always seemed embarrassed by her teen pop background and was the first of the 4 main solo female teenpop stars (Britney, Xtina, Jessica Simpson, Mandy Moore) to try to move past it, into "serious" acting and whatnot. [Hey, who would have thought 8 years ago that all 4 of those would still be relevant celebrities today?] But that being said, some of her early teenpop stuff, especially her ballads like "I Wanna Be With You", is really lovely. IIRC, Steven Thomas Erlewine was a fan & gave her albums good reviews.

2. Re: Michelle Branch - Any teenpop thread opinions on Ms. Branch? I, for one, have always found her inconsistent and have never been a big fan of any of her albums. But, she does have a great knack for kicking out some truly lovely singles (e.g. "All You Wanted", "Breathe", "Everywhere"). "Everywhere" is quite possibly my very favorite single of the decade to this point; it's in a cluster of about 5 or 6 songs that would have a reasonable claim to that title.

― Greg Fanoe (JustFanoe), Wednesday, 31 January 2007 18:22 (6 years ago) Permalink

Nashville Scene's country critics poll has just been released (see the Rolling Country Thread for full results). The Wreckers scored the number 3 country single of the year with "Leave The Pieces" (mediocre to my ears, but a teen pop victory nonetheless!) None of their other songs appear, and she's nowhere to be found on the albums list. Taylor Swift makes no impact on the poll at all, either (actually she was the #5 rated new artist; The Wreckers were #1).

Carrie Underwood (American Idol = teenpop automatically, right?) scores the Number 5 single with "Before He Cheats" (shoulda been #1!) and scores as the #3 female vocalist and (incorrectly) as the #3 new artist. Kellie Pickler is the #7 new artist. And there've been plenty of country-folk trying out on American Idol this year too, so...

― Greg Fanoe (JustFanoe), Wednesday, 31 January 2007 18:29 (6 years ago) Permalink

Band w/ Kelly Clarkson's bass player posts new song on their MySpace. Good, powerful hunk of sound, singer seems incongruously low energy and precise, weakening the track. Lyrics seem pedantic in their sarcasm, which also weakens the track. Good piece of music, nonetheless. Kelly'd sing it better. Might give it better words, too.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Wednesday, 31 January 2007 21:06 (6 years ago) Permalink

"Leave The Pieces" isn't in the top half of good songs on the Wreckers album. Best is the title song, "Stand Still, Look Pretty," even if Michelle and Jessica characteristically make self-doubt and self-assertion seem goopy.

(Many Xhuxk thoughts on Taylor Swift over on rolling country.)

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Wednesday, 31 January 2007 21:42 (6 years ago) Permalink

I've been compiling my old songs of the day over on my MySpace blog, and this is what I had to say about Taylor Swift's "Tim McGraw":

let's just end with the song of the day for December 6, 2006, Taylor Swift's "Tim McGraw." The subject matter's been run into the ground (memories of first love, coming of age), but her words are exceptionally precise and evocative - no line in particular, just the way the details pile up: little black dress, box hidden under her bed, etc. "September saw a month of tears/And thanking God that you weren't here/To see me like that." Very skillful, makes not-quite-in-the-vernacular phrasing ("saw a month of tears") feel normal in context (ditto for "the moon like a spotlight on the lake"). She's canny in balancing wistfulness and self-assertion. She hopes that when the boy thinks of Tim McGraw he thinks of her favorite song. She leaves a letter on his doorstep to make sure he does.

let's just end with the song of the day for December 19, 2006, Taylor Swift's "Tim McGraw," which I already did a couple of weeks ago, but the song keeps getting richer and richer the more I hear it. She uses the word "bittersweet," and she's not kidding. The first time she sings the chorus, "When you think Tim McGraw, I hope you think my favorite song," it means "I hope you have warm memories of me," but by song's end it also means "I hope I haunt you, fucker, the way you haunted me. Sincerely, your discarded girlfriend, Taylor." It doesn't abandon the first meaning, just layers another one on top.

But this is what I wrote on a comments thread in my livejournal:

Best new lyrics I heard all year, I think. They balance so perfectly that anything I say probably overstates the mood one way or another; but in the first chorus when she goes "When you think Tim McGraw, I hope you think my favorite song" it's simply sweet, but by the third chorus those words carry hurt and bitterness and a whole expanse of sadness, and a hint of aggression, as well (as if to say, "may that song haunt you," though that overstates it) - while retaining the sweetness.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Friday, 2 February 2007 02:59 (6 years ago) Permalink

Apparently I think that precision is a better quality in Swift Country than in Stooge Land.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Friday, 2 February 2007 03:06 (6 years ago) Permalink

And this is what I wrote about the Wreckers:

let's just end with the song of the day for December 16, 2006, the Wreckers' "Stand Still, Look Pretty." "You might think it's easy being me/Just stand still, look pretty," sing a couple of gorgeous exteenpoppers. With looks like that they don't know if they have a right to their distress, but they're falling apart anyway. Interesting premise, which they don't take anywhere, so the lyrics feel whiny and empty. But with a quiet rasp in the voice and with the melody hanging around an irresolute "mi" note, the sound delivers some of the sadness that the words aren't up to.

(You can find my MySpace blog here.)

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Friday, 2 February 2007 03:21 (6 years ago) Permalink

Nia brings up Kara DioGuardi's old band MaD DoLL (or some such spelling), and now I would very much like to hear some. Oh wait, I found one song at Garage Band, "Without You". And here's one called "Goodbye." (Not sure bout these, the site was a little confusing.) Anyone know anything more?

― nameom (nameom), Friday, 2 February 2007 05:02 (6 years ago) Permalink

Re: Mia Rose, I was reading 'The Presentation of Self in Everyday Life,' and it basically explained the dilemma over her authenticity. Goffman writes: "Sometimes when we ask whether a fostered impression is true or false we really mean to ask whether or not the performer is authorized to give the performance in question, and are not primarily concerned with the actual performance itself." "We assume that the impostor's performance, in addition to the fact that it misrepresents him, will be at fault in other ways, but often his masquerade is discovered before we can detact any other difference between the false performance and the legitimate one which it simulates."

I read this as saying that with Mia Rose, even with Paris Hilton, the critique isn't of the music, but rather of the perceived inauthenticity. I definitely hear in arguments against Paris this assumption that the performance "will be at fault in other ways," even if the Critic can't point out what ways those will be. Obviously this differs from legitimate critiques, in that its merely the assumption of flaw, not the actual perception of it. So Mia Rose isn't who she says she is, so there must be something wrong with what's she doing. She isn't exactly who she purports to be (ie: the cute, young, charismatic girl unattached to corporation who inspired a following on YouTube) because she actually is attached to a corporation. So throwing that image into question assumes there is something wrong across the board. Even if you can't put your finger on it.

Obviously this isn't a justifaction of the critique, but rather an explanation of where it comes from. I'd still much rather hear someone speak directly to the music.

― Mordechai Shinefield (Mordy), Friday, 2 February 2007 05:03 (6 years ago) Permalink

PS - The two songs I was talking about Kara having written herself are "Home," off the Kat McPhee album, and "Lost in L.A.," off...nothing? Or did I just not notice it before?

― Nia (girlboymusic), Friday, 2 February 2007 05:24 (6 years ago) Permalink

so here's me (and briefly anthony easton) on the country thread:

Possibly the most Cougaresque song on Taylor Swift's album (also my favorite at the moment, and the hardest rocking track I've taken note of so far, and a great revenge song, and maybe a good dance song too) is "Picture to Burn," where she lights things (namely a photo of her ex I guess) on fire. So it's her "Kerosene," obviously. And its arson sounded especially swell this morning in the random CD changer, seque-ing straight into Lily Allen telling some club dude "If you play with fire you're gonna get burned" in her probably most blatant disco homage (even though its beat always reminds me of "Abracadabra" by Steve Miller) "Friday Night." (And the melody in her "Littlest Things" sounds exactly like Michael Jackson's "Human Nature," by the way; not sure whether anybody on either side of the pond has noticed that before.) Also, oh yeah, most risque moment on Taylor's album I've noticed so far is the one in "Our Song" where she says "He's got one hand on the steering wheel and one hand on my....[notable pause]...heart." Charlie Feathers ("One Hand Loose") would be proud. (And oh yeah, she doesn't keep him out past curfew per se' in that song, it turns out; he's just talking slow to her on the phone 'cause it's late and his mama don't know. Pretty sexy.)
-- xhuxk (fakemai...), January 25th, 2007.

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...though sometimes that line doesn't hit me as particularly sexy or risque (or especially paused) at all--just, um, regular. (even more regular but sometimes seemingly more so is the line in that other song where she says she's "never been on the outside." could mean a lot, if outside of society is where she wants to be. but i'm hardly convinced it is. apparently it's just {"just"} a breakup song.)
most country tune on lily allen's CD is seemingly "alfie," a sweet slowish one with alpine polka oompah beat. right now it reminds me of abba (who had verging-on-country moments themselves, of course.)

-- xhuxk (fakemai...), January 26th, 2007.

Unless the most country tune [on lily allen's album] is "Knock 'Em Out," with its blatant Professor Longhair second-line Mardi Gras piano rolls at the start. (Has anybody pointed that out? It's really cool. And for that matter has anybody pointed out that the Lady Sovereign album has a track that sounds like classic Les Rita Mitsouko? I haven't been paying attention to the discussion, which always seems to devolve into dumb horseshit about how "real" such artists are. What about their music?)

-- xhuxk (fakemai...), January 27th, 2007.

God I love "Picture To Burn" by Taylor Swift so much. What a catchy, rocking song. It sounds a lot like some other bubble-country gal hit from the past couple years, but I can't place it: Jessica Andrews? Cyndi Thompson? Meredith Edwards? Or maybe Rebbeca Lynn Howard, "Pink Flamingo Kind of Love" or something? One of those people, I think. (Which reminds me, I keep meaning to research this: Did Alecia Elliott ever make a whole album, or just her great "I'm Diggin' It" single? I should just look it up, but I'm lazy today.)

-- xhuxk (fakemai...), January 27th, 2007.

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(and a couple other cool things about "picture to burn" are taylor's "burn baby burn" disco inferno section and that out-of-nowhere mandolin-or-whatever break toward the end, which recalls the fiddles coming out of nowhere in britney's wacky hoedown-crunk ying yang twins collaboration "i've got that boom boom" a few years back.)
-- xhuxk (fakemai...), January 27th, 2007.

picture to burn really pisses me off, because it does that whole gay as threatening to masculinity libel thing, i mean its a cute song, but that one line really ruins ti for
-- pinkmoose (anthony.easto...), January 28th, 2007.

The line in "Picture To Burn" Anthony's referring to, which I hadn't noticed because I rarely read lyric sheets unless somebody is holding a pistol to my head (since it's cheating, see) (or I'm just lazy, same difference) and I was busu getting off on the great fast rhythmic rush of words in that first verse instead, is: "State the obvious, I didn't get my perfect fantasy/I realize you love yourself more than you could ever love me/So go and tell your friends that I'm obsessive and crazy/That's fine, I'll tell mine you're gay." Which is...interesting. And may well be libel (well, if he wasn't gay, that is) (sung it'd be slander, but we're talking about a lyric sheet here remember.) Yet I'm not entirely convinced it challenges his masculinity. Off the bat, it reminds me of Tony Basil's "Mickey" or Josie Cotton's "Johnny Are You Queer." I'll have to ponder it some more before I decide if I'm offended.

-- xhuxk (fakemai...), January 28th, 2007.

― xhuxk (xhuck), Friday, 2 February 2007 12:05 (6 years ago) Permalink

oops, left out these (which were earlier, and one of which I refer to above):

Taylor Swift album sounds great. Apparently Frank wasn't fibbing. So far my favorite is the song where she keeps a boy out past curfew.

-- xhuxk (fakemai...), January 21st, 2007.

So I assume Frank or Jon Caramanica or somebody must have pointed this out sometime when I wasn't really paying close attention, but it's totally ingenious how the first and last songs on Taylor Swift's albums are actually about themselves, to wit:
"When you think 'Tim McGraw,' I hope you think my favorite song" (from "Tim McGraw")

"I grabbed a pen and an old napkin and I wrote down...'Our Song'"
(from "Our Song").

Is that a historical first?

"A Place in the World" is the most shemo-teenpop-sounding Swift song I've noticed so far, and also my least favorite (though it's fine, really, just not one of her best). "Should've Said No"/"Mary's Song (Oh My My My)"/"Our Song" at the end of the album totally kill.

-- xhuxk (fakemai...), January 22nd, 2007

― xhuxk (xhuck), Friday, 2 February 2007 12:10 (6 years ago) Permalink

whereas j-lo's vocals are the epitome of botherd-about-this can-we-hurry-up-my-car-is-waiting detachment. (both are v good at what they do.)

A little late, but I just remembered an anecdote about J-Lo being the only person ever besides the queen to (demand to) be driven up right next to the BBC building so she wouldn't have to walk to the door.

― nameom (nameom), Friday, 2 February 2007 18:26 (6 years ago) Permalink

Xhuxk, Alecia "Felony" Elliott has an album, I'm Diggin' It, same title as its best track. I remember some sociologically "serious" content mixed in with the bubble and fun, though I don't recall what that content was. I'll have to give the thing a spin again.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Friday, 2 February 2007 21:15 (6 years ago) Permalink

"Classmates at [Taylor Swift's] high school can often be found guilty as the subjects of many of her songs," says Wikipedia, and Alanna Nash says in the Amazon blurb that Taylor "encoded messages in the lyrics of her CD booklet, starting with the name of the boy who cheated on her from 'Should've Said No.'"

But it's not like she's a Lily Allen clawing out the fellow's eyes. She's coming across as young and vulnerable, more sad than bitter - deeply sad when she's sad, but also bright and alive, ready for what's next.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Friday, 2 February 2007 21:22 (6 years ago) Permalink

From a great distance I'm trying to make sense of Linda Sundblad's attitude and see where to place her on the social landscape. She's having her cake and eating it too, going ultra femme - intentionally exaggerating her sighs and gasps and coos - while giving herself catty lyrics, feisty lyrics, rebellious lyrics. Not just cat's claws, though; rather, a critical distance. So I'd locate her on the "left," in dance bohemia.

Am I reading this correctly?

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Friday, 2 February 2007 21:41 (6 years ago) Permalink

Also very silly lyrics in "Oh Father." Or, if you take them literally, she gets big Christian guilt points, but that seems very unlikely, especially in context (what with all the dogs and croc-tears). Still not sure what to do with that song, though, because a line like "Woke up this morning feeling closer than ever to God" is pretty heavy for straight-up silliness, or irony, or whatever the heck it is. I get the sense that she could be closer than ever to God, and she still gets away with the wink (would that some of the Xtian poppers could embrace that attitude). More cake.

― nameom (nameom), Friday, 2 February 2007 22:06 (6 years ago) Permalink

She's a polytheist.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Friday, 2 February 2007 22:20 (6 years ago) Permalink

"I want to have some kind of irony in the lyrics. 'Oh Father' is..I make this confession to this priest, or whatever, because I've been doing...what is it, 'sintz'? And I've been thinkin' of this guy and I've been touchin' myself...I mean, it's irony. ...I just wanted it to be, people had to think about it, like 'what is she saying?' ...Is heaven still open if you touch yourself? Of course it is!"

From the Interview with Linda if you can get past the interviewer.

Other fun facts:

"I was an albino when I was a child. ...Sometimes I look like a [Swedish word for "sausage with dots on it"]."

Last name pronounced "SOOND-blod," not "Sun Blade."

Interviewer's never heard of Max Martin when he plays "Bimbo." (Radio Dude: "So he's the talent behind Kelly Clarkson?" Linda: "Well, yes." ....grrrrr)

"The teenagers are mostly girls...I get messages like 'I listened to your song and now I don't want to kill myself,' you know, really deep things. Over 25, they're mostly men."

"Most of [the album] I've been writin' with a Swedish guy called Tobias...he took me here in his car." (No more info on Tobias, darn.)

"I like to tease people a little bit. I don't want to say 'fuck you' -- I just did it -- I just want to...tease people a little bit. P!nk is doing it good."

Linda: "I'm not saying I don't drink, I'm not an angel all the time...but the world is so fucked up today."
Dude: "Paris Hilton's got an album! That's how fucked up the world is!"
Linda: "That's fucked up. That's fucked up. I have to say though, she's kinda funny. I mean, she's makin' it! That's crazy."
Dude: "For it to be successful, I'm like does anyone in the world have a fuckin' brain?"

Hmmmmmmmmmmm.

― nameom (nameom), Friday, 2 February 2007 22:51 (6 years ago) Permalink

Katharine McPhee's eligibility for teenpop thread confirmed: "In June 2006, McPhee revealed to People magazine that she previously suffered from bulimia. After a period of about five years, she began treatment after qualifying for American Idol. During her run on American Idol, she lost 30 lbs." (Wikipedia.)

I definitely like the first McPhee single, "Over It," the "Too Little Too Late" soundalike that's written by Josh Alexander, Billy Steinberg, and Ruth-Anne Cunningham, who wrote "Too Little Too Late." Again, McPhee's anonymity pulls the song down (compared to "Too Little Too Late"), though I wouldn't call JoJo so unanonymous herself; but JoJo's song has more ache when it's aching and more zing when it's piercing.

Also like the penned-by-Kara-DioGuardi-all-by-her-lonesome "Home" ("Home" and "Over It" were two of those first four tracks that had misled me into getting excited about the McPhee album.) It does sound very DioGuardi, like Platinum Weird's "Mississippi Valentine"; is a show melody that has swells and troughs but doesn't make you seasick; warm-glowing-sunset piano-n-strings, gratitude in the lyrics, a trace of sadness that's in the melody but not in the words - well, the sadness is suggested by the words: what she's found with the guy is something she'd never found before, implying a lot of sadness in earlier pre-wonderful-guy times. "It's hard to see beautiful, oh it's hard to see beautiful in your own eyes, but you make me beautiful for the very first time." That's very skillful, three different bits of information with the three different "beautifuls," and if it's sappy I don't mind the sappiness - except that this theme was done ten times more effectively on Ashlee's "Pieces Of Me," with pacing and detail and drama and convincing wonder (he puts up with my shit and then he patiently brings me to orgasm!), not to mention the wonderful juxtaposition of fading out at the start and fading into his arms at the end. And though McPhee's singing is flawless and doesn't have Kara's sometimes irritating overclomp, it's still missing whatever it is that McPhee seems to be missing. I wouldn't mind this on the radio but won't find myself compulsively listening for it.

I do like the second "a" in Katharine.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Friday, 2 February 2007 23:50 (6 years ago) Permalink

Answering my own question: "Lost in L.A." is off the Mad Doll album.

Dave, more Mad Doll (or MaD DoLL, whatever) here. Skip the intro and click the music link.

― Nia (girlboymusic), Saturday, 3 February 2007 00:39 (6 years ago) Permalink

Interview with Ashley Tisdale over at Dirrrty Pop.

Q: In what ways are you similar or different to your character, Sharpay?
A: I am not as sarcastic or a diva.

But what a talker!

― nameom (nameom), Saturday, 3 February 2007 01:21 (6 years ago) Permalink

Interestingly, as far as I can tell, there's nothing "inauthentic" about Paris Hilton - at least not in relation to the album; she's never made claims for herself or for the album that are untrue. But I do get the sense that the haters want to challenge her authenticity, even while having no idea what they might mean by "authenticity."

(Why I prefer the word "real" to the word "authentic": For some reason, in using the former term, people are less likely to evade their adjectival responsibility to say what "real" modifies. They're more likely to say "she's not a real _____.")

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Saturday, 3 February 2007 15:18 (6 years ago) Permalink

The 2007 teenpop season starts off in earnest on Tuesday, with the release of Jordan Pruitt's and Ashley Tisdale's albums. Oddly enough, both contain songs called "Over It", just like the lead single off Katharine McPhee's album.

Ashley Tisdale's album is streamed at the AOL Listening Party for free. I am listening to it now, will report back on my thoughts after I'm done.

4 new songs from Jordan Pruitt's album are available for play at the myspace for Levosia Entertainment:

"Waiting for You" is a slow tempo acoustic number, more along the lines of "Outside Looking In", except way more boring. Jordan needs some lovin!

"Waiting for the Weekend" is the Target bonus track. Disneyfied R&B lite, consistent with her most recent songs. With a slight Cheetah-esque latin flair though, in the guitar sound, percussion, and horns. Like "Waiting for You" very yawn-worthy.

"Miss Popularity" is the best of the four. Lite-R&B again, but a nice melody. Lyrics talking about a popular girl, not much going on there. But a catchy tune. Probably the second best Jordan track I've heard, behind "Outside Looking In"

Finally, "Over It" is acoustic guitar based kiddie R&B as well, with some orchestral swells, etc. Very generic.

I'm getting less and less excited about this album the more time goes by.

― Greg Fanoe (JustFanoe), Saturday, 3 February 2007 20:25 (6 years ago) Permalink

Hilary "With Love" (if you've got broadband, this has higher-quality sound than the YouTube stream). Don't know what I think of this yet; not altogether unlike Jam-Lewis productions, which often leave me cold. Was hoping it would be more Eurodance, though I like the fact that this is suspended between r&b and Eurodance. I do like the chanting in the chorus, "You can blunt, just do it with love love love." I like the quality of her mature voice. Rich, not as thin. (Of course, thin worked beautifully in "Come Clean" and "Fly.")

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Saturday, 3 February 2007 22:46 (6 years ago) Permalink

"You can blunt"

Er, "you can be blunt." (No, she hasn't gone gangsta.)

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Saturday, 3 February 2007 22:49 (6 years ago) Permalink

Very first reaction to the Tisdale album (which I was really hopeful for): They aren't letting her do a whole lot of singing, are they? The production is great, but she isn't contributing a lot. "I'll do that," not sure which song this is - but it's like a female version of that song in Oliver: "I'd do anything." But he was specific, while she's ambigiously explicit.

― Mordechai Shinefield (Mordy), Saturday, 3 February 2007 23:23 (6 years ago) Permalink

I'm still back here with Jordan. I like the three streamed non-"Miss Popularity" Pruitt's a little bit more than Greg does, though not a lot. On "I Can't Wait For The Weekend" Jordan does assured NY cabaret-style singer-songwriter vocals (maybe I mean KT Tunstall-style vocals), which I find interesting; could portend good things (could also portend bad things). Her voice is lovely. But the song itself isn't amazing. I agree with Greg on "Miss Popularity" being the class of this class. Lyrics are too obvious, paint a boring villain, filch plot from High School Musical ("No need to try out for the school play/You know she'll get the lead anyway"), steal lines from Marion Raven ("skin like porcelain"); but the singing is better than good, a voice that vibrates between sweet and cutting, hints of flamenco-Asian-psychedelia in the melody and good little ululations from the throat. Potential greatness, when matched with the right material.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Saturday, 3 February 2007 23:45 (6 years ago) Permalink

I agree that Jordan is a great singer, Frank, but the material on the whole doesn't seem to be up to par on this album. The enitre album (except "Jump to the Rhythm") is written by Keith Thomas and Robin Scoffield, who have written some good songs for Jordan but seem to be inconsistent.

Bonus ranking of 2007 teenpop "Over It"s

1. Katharine McPhee
2. Ashley Tisdale
3. Jordan Pruitt

― Greg Fanoe (JustFanoe), Sunday, 4 February 2007 04:39 (6 years ago) Permalink

I haven't heard McPhee's or Tisdale's, but Jordan's "Over It" is really good! The chorus may be (a bit) generic but the two verses are very unusual, in terms of the chord sequence and the way the melody is phrased. Great vocal performance as well.

I liked "Miss Popularity" as well, but it didn't make me hit replay immediately like "Over It" did.

I took Greg's word for it on the other two Pruitt songs (or rather, I'll wait for the CD to hear them).

― Jeff W (zebedee), Sunday, 4 February 2007 19:20 (6 years ago) Permalink

This is the best thread on ILM!

― from The ends of your fingers (prosper.strummer.), Sunday, 4 February 2007 19:23 (6 years ago) Permalink

Think the Ashley Tisdale is fairly wonderful - lively, funny, w/ globs of beauty - for the first five tracks, then it dies, then half perks up for bits of tracks nine, ten, eleven, and thirteen, before concluding on irrevocable ballad death. But better than I'd expected.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Monday, 5 February 2007 02:59 (6 years ago) Permalink

I hear the Hilary song as "you can even give blood, just do it with love." It's like you can do anything as long as you do it with love (and as long as it's a close enough rhyme).

A little underwhelmed by Ashley Tisdale, but the first few songs are really great! The first one, "So Much for You," might be my favorite. The ballads are awful, especially "Love Me for Me" which just goes to show that Ashlee could kick Ashley's ass. (Which one of these did Kara write?) I think it peters out around the sorta Lou Bega-sounding one, "Not Like That," which is a "jealous, bitch?" track with no teeth. So Paris could kick her ass, too. "Over It" is closest to bubble-Britney (haven't heard the other "Over It"s but I really like this one), but, yeah, Britney could kick her ass. And Lindsay'd kick her ass on principle for being such a goody goody. She's older than LL, too! That might make her the first Disney star to successfully and uneventfully weather the over-21 transition by default.

― nameom (nameom), Monday, 5 February 2007 03:27 (6 years ago) Permalink

(Which one of these did Kara write?)

Ha.

(Allmusic.com doesn't list full writers credits and I'm not having much luck with Google, but Shelly Peiken (!) wrote or cowrote the boring "We'll Be Together," and Kara cowrote the likable "Be Good To Me." Need to learn more about J.R. Rotem, who keeps showing up on songs I like, this time "He Said, She Said." My favorite is "Not Like That," with Tisdale as cowriter, but I can't get any other credits. Storch is a producer on at least one track, my guess either "Be Good To Me" or "Not Like That." The Matrix did the pretty good "So Much For You." As for Diane Warren...)

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Monday, 5 February 2007 04:23 (6 years ago) Permalink

My favorite is "Not Like That"

So Ashley kicks Buster Poindexter's ass.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Monday, 5 February 2007 04:25 (6 years ago) Permalink

Got the other credits at AMG and my post just got deleted, but basically I wrote that Shelly Peiken, who wrote Ashlee's "Love Me for Me," wrote a kinda weak one on this album, and Kara's Wikipedia credits her for Ashley's "Love Me for Me," which is incorrect (that's the one Warren wrote). Ashley co-wrote the closing ballad, too. (I missed "listening to hip-hop in my flip-flops" line in "Not Like That." I misread this song completely -- she's not so much saying "jealous, bitch?" as "these girls expect me to be hot, but I'm just a regular gal." So she's kind of anti-Paris in that respect.)

― nameom (nameom), Monday, 5 February 2007 04:43 (6 years ago) Permalink

In fact, this makes "Not Like That" lyrically one of the most interesting songs on the album! She's rejecting the club life altogether in the words; it's not her world. So she'll get the club bumpin', but only reluctantly.

― nameom (nameom), Monday, 5 February 2007 04:47 (6 years ago) Permalink

Are there many other songs about a club diva who would rather be home in her flip-flops drinking tea or something? "I'll make you dance, but I'd rather be reading."

― nameom (nameom), Monday, 5 February 2007 04:56 (6 years ago) Permalink

Wait, how did you find the full credits on AMG? As far as I can tell, they're only giving one credit per song, when almost all of them had multiple writers.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Monday, 5 February 2007 04:59 (6 years ago) Permalink

You get full writing credits if you click through individual songs. I noticed while double checking the Ashlee credits for Peiken's name that everything on her album was just credited to "Simpson" on the album review page. (So for instance the last track was co-written by Ashley and Janice Robinson, but it's just credited to "Tisdale" on the main page.)

― nameom (nameom), Monday, 5 February 2007 05:05 (6 years ago) Permalink

Storch doesn't get any writer credits. Of the three tracks I think are first rate, "He Said, She Said" is by Evan "Kidd" Bogart, Jonathan "JR" Rotem, and Ryan "Alias" Tedder; "Be Good To Me" is Kara DioGuardi, Niclas Molinder, and Joacim Persson; "Not Like That" is Pelle Ankarberg, David Jassy, Niclas Molinder, Joacim Persson, and Ashley Tisdale.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Monday, 5 February 2007 07:56 (6 years ago) Permalink

Too many names. I think I was happier when I believed Tisdale (or whoever) wrote everything themselves. And then sang it themselves. Even though that was maybe never implied. And then I discovered that it was "fake" which meant I found out how 'real' it was. And then it took 4-5 years before I was able to come back to Teenpop again. But now I have to read all the songwriters, and justify my appreciation (not 'love' anymore, but just an acknowledgment) by citing names. That no one has ever heard of. I argued that Paris performed a great song last year. And someone said: She didn't write it. And I said: Then whoever did. And they said: And she didn't sing it either, autoTune did. And I said: Then whatever. The single, the object, the artwork. Fuck the exterior. But I really wanted to say: Screw this. Paris - now Tisdale - was completely responsible. Because their names and pictures are on the front. And so even if they are completely detached from the process, they are still living and dying by it. So why is their stake worth less? But I didn't say that. Also: Tisdale is my favorite thing on the Suite Life of Zach + Cody, cause I can't stand those twins.

― Mordechai Shinefield (Mordy), Monday, 5 February 2007 08:46 (6 years ago) Permalink

Agree with the chiming in that Tisdale's album is very good. In any event, excellent for a Disney product.

Tisdale is my favorite thing on the Suite Life of Zach + Cody, cause I can't stand those twins.

Strongly agree (though I like Brenda Song a lot too). In fact, I don't think there are any current Disney shows that I really enjoy. Hannah Montana the best, but still below the level of Disney's best work.

― Greg Fanoe (JustFanoe), Monday, 5 February 2007 14:22 (6 years ago) Permalink

this makes "Not Like That" lyrically one of the most interesting songs on the album! She's rejecting the club life altogether in the words; it's not her world. So she'll get the club bumpin', but only reluctantly.

Yes, and it's therefore a conflicted song, since musically it's fundamentally a club track, it's there for struttin' and bumpin' and showing off, especially those gorgeous bouncing chorus beats: "All the girls in the club got their eyes on me/I can tell by their look that they want to be/be HOT HOT HOT like that/But it's NOT NOT no it's NOT like that."

But it is like that, of course, 'cause she is hot like that, even if she then claims that she's not that girl and it's not her world.

Wonder why she/they think there's a conflict between being the same blood and bone as everyone else and being hot and special.

I could accuse her of bad faith, trying to have her glamour and shun it too, but I think the track makes a case for both sides of her conflict, and she sounds good doing it.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Monday, 5 February 2007 22:39 (6 years ago) Permalink

Rollin' RD 2-5-07: Hilary's back in the game at 75% pick for "With Love," new to the incubator is Kate Voegele whose indie label (MySpace Records!) is owned by News Corp, gets Universal distribution, and is headed by an ex-Hollywood Recs/Disney exec. No discernible Autotune.

so even if they are completely detached from the process, they are still living and dying by it.

But I think Ashley and Paris (sitcom?) will both do OK whether or not their albums succeed. The stakes are actually quite low for them! Ashley has a giant cross-platform safety net and Paris has being Paris, which is a 24/7 kinda job.

― nameom (nameom), Monday, 5 February 2007 22:58 (6 years ago) Permalink

Wow. The new Avril Lavigne single is dripping with attitude. In fact, it's the best song I've heard this year.

It's incredible - like she's finally ditched all the precious: I'm a little punk rocker - in favor of a much more teenpop approach to relationships. So where Sk8tr Boi was about how her relationships weren't conventional (they had emancipated themselves from the highschool set and were touring professionally) this is set in the standard context of boyfriend -girlfriends. But in doing so, it's the most punk song I've ever heard her sing. It reminds me of Blondie in terms of investing the mundane with attitude.

"Hey, hey, you, you, I don't like your girlfriend. Hey, hey, you, you, I think you need a new one," is far more aggressive. In contrast to Sk8r, where she steals the boy away from his old girlfriend is completely overlooking in favor of the larger tension (he's great, and you missed your chance), here she's actively stealing him. And the opening: Hey, hey, you, you, is almost like a faster: "Ai, Oh, Let's go," without the beat between the noise ("Hey" "Oh") and the narrative ("You, you" "Let's go"). So she's editing out the Ramone's pause in favor of thrusting herself forward. There's huge amounts of pose in here - down to the hand-clapping, which almost sounds as though she applauding herself as she sings. Or maybe even the Stones, singing: "Hey, hey, you, you get off of my cloud," which is probably the more obvious touchstone. Which is perfect! Because she's aggressively pulling you in like the Stone's song chases you away. It's the same attitude, but used to different means.

"Ok fine I want you mine you're so delicious. I think about you all the time you're so addictive. Don't you know what I can do to make you feel alright? (Alright, alright, alright)" Combining the speedy breathlessness of the first two statements, which the echoing 'alright' of the third, it's as though Avril is coming overwhelming the target (and us) by pounding us over and over with the Possibility of Her. By the time it gets to "alright, alright, alright," it sounds like we're responding to the song ourself (also through Avril's voice) agreeing to her. She's puppeting both the predator and the prey - so that she never has to fail.

And then the song launches into the greatest thing I've heard - certainly this year and possibly last as well. "Don't pretend I think you know I'm damn precious / And hell yeah, I'm the motherfucking princess / I can tell you like me too and you know I'm right. (alright, alright, alright)" She simultaneously needs this guy, and doesn't need him at all. She's fine without him - sneering: "You know I'm damn precious." - but she's only saying it because it'll let her get him. And when she sings "I'm the motherfucking princess," she completely slays the entire Paris Hilton album. Just the implicit contradiction of using the word "motherfucking" while describing herself as a "princess" is completely honest, jarring, confusing, and refreshing. It means that a "princess" can use the word "motherfucking." It also means she has a sense of humor about being a "princess." It also means that she's a "princess" /because/ she uses words like "motherfucking," which makes her "precious" which she also understands.

This is thus far my favorite song of 2007. And I predict it'll be in the top 5 if not at the top 1 by the end of the year. I can't imagine anything displacing it. It's much better than the Veronica's 4eva - which was near the top of my list last year.

― Mordechai Shinefield (Mordy), Monday, 5 February 2007 23:31 (6 years ago) Permalink

"Tell me what I you want to hear / Better yet, make your girlfriend disappear."

Just the amount packed into those lines in terms of language V. action, and how pop music mitigates that divide - blows me completely away. I'm smitten.

― Mordechai Shinefield (Mordy), Monday, 5 February 2007 23:34 (6 years ago) Permalink

Couple misspellings in my rush. "Overlooked" instead of "Overlooking." "Completely overwhelming" instead of "coming overwhelming."

― Mordechai Shinefield (Mordy), Tuesday, 6 February 2007 00:21 (6 years ago) Permalink

Mordy, where did you hear the Avril track, and do you know of any way I can hear it? You've gotten me intrigued. Thus far, in 2007, "Famous Last Words" and "With Love" will both strongly contend for my year end top 20-ish.

― Greg Fanoe (JustFanoe), Tuesday, 6 February 2007 00:48 (6 years ago) Permalink

Heard it on Idolator: http://idolator.com/tunes/mp3/leak-of-the-day-avril-lavigne-may-look-glam-but-she-curses-like-a-sailor-234107.php

― Mordechai Shinefield (Mordy), Tuesday, 6 February 2007 00:56 (6 years ago) Permalink

If I decide it's eligible (it's been around for four months, but it's not yet peaked on the radio), I'd say Lloyd's "You" has a good shot at my Pazz & Jop.

Also like D4L's "Tatted Up," which we might as well talk about here, since the Rolling Snap Thread had become a silly bore last I looked.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Tuesday, 6 February 2007 07:34 (6 years ago) Permalink

Sadie Ama's "Falling" is sweet, pretty despair, what "Too Little Too Late" would have sounded like if JoJo hadn't known how to get mad.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Tuesday, 6 February 2007 07:40 (6 years ago) Permalink

So, Frank. What'd you think of the song?

― Mordechai Shinefield (Mordy), Tuesday, 6 February 2007 07:44 (6 years ago) Permalink

This is after two listens. There's some Toni Basil in "Girlfriend"'s hey-heys, too, and "you're so fine," though Avril doesn't promise to take it like a man. I'd like "Girlfriend" to hit, but the radio hasn't been bubblegum friendly recently. I like the moments and attitudes Mordy points out, though whether the song is still rushing my sugar in December will have to do with how well the secretly gorgeous harmonies in the chorus retain their appeal. (I like some other things I've been talking about today at least as much.)

Idolator says that "Avril allegedly wrote the song with Dr. Luke"; doesn't reveal the source of the allegation.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Tuesday, 6 February 2007 08:09 (6 years ago) Permalink

I like some other things I've been talking about today at least as much.

Today meaning "Feb. 5" as well as the first hours of "Feb. 6." Good night.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Tuesday, 6 February 2007 08:13 (6 years ago) Permalink

Lloyd's MySpace. "You" is the fourth song down.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Tuesday, 6 February 2007 08:23 (6 years ago) Permalink

Mordechai OTM, that shit is bananas, B-A-N-A-N-A-S.

― Haikunym (Haikunym), Tuesday, 6 February 2007 14:10 (6 years ago) Permalink

The Avril track is truly wonderful - the main bratpop comparison that springs to mind is Skye Sweetnam's 'Hypocrite', at least in terms of knowing the power of short, sharp verse candence and how handcaps/ the cheerleader-style chant repetition really lifts the chorus.

Also, instead of focussing on the chords and musical backdrop to be the thrust as in some of her previous tracks, this one really works the impact of vocal layering and how they strip the song back and let it stand. Eg, the "In a second you'll be wrapped around my finger/ 'Cuz I can, cuz I can do it better" when the second repetition kicks in, it's fuelled by the shift up (a key? not sure of specific technical term) of the vocal, rather than chords as we might expect from her, and then the "Hey you/ No way" layers stand again without much of a musical backdrop. It's definitely the most musically sparse track I've heard from her, but it really works for me because of the bratty enthusiasm the cheerleader chants evoke.

― Abigail McDonald (AbigailM), Tuesday, 6 February 2007 22:13 (6 years ago) Permalink

That was my first reaction, too...Skye Lite! Except it's still a little heavy, even though it's probably the funniest track she's ever done (and I do like it). The great multi-tracking helps, like the pile-up Abby mentioned (I think they're just adding more Avrils on top). But no way is this better than "Tap That" (and Megan McCauley can do new Avril and classic Avril in the same song!). Or "Hypocrite" by a mile...wonder what Dr. Luke and Max and Skye came up with.

And when she sings "I'm the motherfucking princess," she completely slays the entire Paris Hilton album.

I think that line is terrible, but how does it even compare to the Paris album? Paris is the motherfucking princess, but that isn't really what the album's all about.

― nameom (nameom), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 02:43 (6 years ago) Permalink

I think this is real Fefe Dobson-like, yay.

― Haikunym (Haikunym), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 02:47 (6 years ago) Permalink

(Also, Fefe Dobson out-did this track on about three songs on her new album.)

xpost

― nameom (nameom), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 02:50 (6 years ago) Permalink

doesn't count if the album NEVER COMES OUT dude

― Haikunym (Haikunym), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 02:51 (6 years ago) Permalink

But...but...the internet!

― nameom (nameom), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 03:01 (6 years ago) Permalink

See, I disagree about what the Paris album is about. I think it's either in last year's Teenpop thread, or the Paris thread - but I think her album is completely about the wink-wink irony of being a princess. But where Paris's songs are too frightened to play with that image, except in terms of tip-toeing around it, or pretending something else is going on - Avril is embracing the image and altering it at the same time. She's calling herself a princess - which is true - while changing the definition of what a princess is. I could dig up my textual examples of why I think the Paris album is about her being a princess if you'd like.

― Mordechai Shinefield (Mordy), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 03:03 (6 years ago) Permalink

When the extra Avrils come in, they're doing a higher pitched shout, but there's no melody.

And before someone rubs my nose in "Nothing in This World" (I can do what she can do so much better), I'd argue that the song is much more complex than that, as much about the longing as the boyfriend-stealing. Whereas you get everything you need to know in "motherfuckin' princess"...and she kinda spoils that one early, doesn't she? Megan McCauley lets the tension build a little before she shows her hand (and then she gets shy again in the next section, which does something similar to the Avril build-up with a harmony instead of a higher-pitched shout "maybe we could do something that sometimes leads to other things").

xpost

Have you read this take on Paris yet? I don't think the album (after the first three tracks) is particularly ironic in the way you're suggesting (deja vu, think I said that last year, too), and that you have to project wink-wink into "Heartbeat" or "Screwed" or "Not Leaving without You" or even "Nothing in This World," in the same way I'm probably projecting humorlessness onto the new Avril (except I do think it's kinda one-note when it could be like one-and-a-half note).

― nameom (nameom), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 03:14 (6 years ago) Permalink

*project wink-wink onto

― nameom (nameom), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 03:15 (6 years ago) Permalink

Simon Reynolds:

But the palpable shift back to undergroundist values has been facilitated by the fact that overground pop is not coming up with the goods at the moment. Oh, you still get lone loonies claiming merit for Paris Hilton's CD while conscientious generalists urge us to check out modern country, but overall there's been a return to a default-mode rockism that prizes substance, complexity, edge.

― nameom (nameom), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 03:21 (6 years ago) Permalink

Why exactly are we supposed to give a fuck what Simon Reynolds thinks about anything anyway?

-- Haikunym (zinogu...), February 7th, 2007. (later)

― Haikunym (Haikunym), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 03:24 (6 years ago) Permalink

I just mean he reads Rolling Teenpop and Country is all.

― nameom (nameom), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 03:30 (6 years ago) Permalink

I hadn't seen that reading of the album, but I'll say this: I think it's a better reading than the album it's reading. Whatever you want to read into something is fine - I don't think any of these albums, nameon, are objectively great or not. But I'll restate what I thought last year (without being redundant, consider this in comparison to the Avril album): Paris sounds (to me) like a dry, dead, detached husk of a voice; trying to twist her words into a projection of self that falls flat. Or is fun for a moment, but only superficially. She doesn't play with her own identity. At best, she projects it well. Paris does Paris decently. I'm addicted to work that seems self-conscious, though, or wounded. And Avril does both those much better. I could pile layers of meaning onto "motherfucking princess."
1. It's a joke.
2. She hates herself.
3. She loves herself.
4. She's making fun of Paris Hilton.
5. She just likes saying these words - because they sound exciting and loud.
6. She knows she's a princess and is being self-degrading (a spin off 2)
7. She isn't being a princess at all. It's a pose.
8. She's designing a new kind of princess.

Et al. I could probably write a dozen more meanings. With Paris I feel like you get one or two. When you're lucky, two. You get the straight-forward meaning and the wink-wink. You don't get much emotion. You don't get much sincerity. (Even if it isn't ironic, though I believe it's very, very ironic music.) With Avril you get a whole range of meanings.

― Mordechai Shinefield (Mordy), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 03:33 (6 years ago) Permalink

dave I know he does, that's why I'm writing this all over the place

― Haikunym (Haikunym), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 03:36 (6 years ago) Permalink

Back to Teenpop girls who are totally over it...

Upon reflection, I still like Katharine McPhee's "Over It" best, because it's going for a more wistful "I'm over the pain", while Tisdale and Pruitt are more confident and assured "I'm totally over this guy and will NEVER take him back" songs. A matter of preference I guess, but I like the melodrama of the former rather than the cattiness of the latter. Plus, McPhee has the music to back it up. It won't make my top 10 and probably won't make my top 20 singles of 2007, but it's probably one of my 5 favorite songs of 2007 released so far. (Umm, below "With Love" and "Catch You" and maybe one or two Tisdales).

― Greg Fanoe (JustFanoe), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 03:54 (6 years ago) Permalink

my daughter completely agrees that avril's single is the shizz

― Haikunym (Haikunym), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 03:59 (6 years ago) Permalink

I just mean he reads Rolling Teenpop and Country is all.

I doubt it.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 05:31 (6 years ago) Permalink

Or if he does, he has poor reading comprehension.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 05:38 (6 years ago) Permalink

I know that Luke had a hand in both, but "Nothing In This World" and "Girlfriend" sound so different that I wouldn't play them off each other, unless to point out their different characters. My favorite part of "Nothing In This World" is when, after spraying us with overdubs of beauty in the chorus, she ends up hazily romantic, saying the word "tonight" as a shimmering promise, then drifting along, "daht dah, daht daht d-dah dah."

Avril's playing the cheerleader, inviting us to join her in her jump and stomp. A totally different feel.

Like Abby, I thought of "Hypocrite," since both "Girlfriend" and "Hypocrite" are power pop that's heard the Ramones. But Toni Basil's "Mickey" is "Girlfriend"'s obvious reference; deliberate, I presume.

The energy of "Girlfriend" is too much, too heavy (I had the same problem with Megan McCauley's "Tap That"). And overall, the track feels like a genre exercise. That may not ultimately be a flaw, but it puts me at a distance. What may save it for me is the prettiness of the harmonies. Chants usually aren't so pretty.

I'm trying to take in an awful lot of music right now; Ashley Tisdale's "Not Like That" seems the most comfortable in its bounce. Even though it's rock 'n' roll (or rock 'n' soul, since the rhythm feels a bit Holland Dozier Holland to me) rather than reggae, it has the same lift as "Pon De Replay," but attached to a bright bubble sound.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 06:15 (6 years ago) Permalink

General feeling in these parts seems to be that Girls Aloud vs. Sugababes' "Walk This Way" is a train wreck, and I'm with the general feeling. There is something interesting at work in the track, everything except the guitar riff played and sung on a wearying low pitch, with aggressive, ugly, almost painful riffing. Don't know how much of this is deliberate. Feels grungey. I don't mean the genre "grunge." Just grunge. Valuable in its ugliness and strangeness, but I haven't yet found a way into enjoying it, 'cept that I'm always happy to hear that Joe Perry riff.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 06:33 (6 years ago) Permalink

overall, the track feels like a genre exercise

I sort of agree. What genre, though? "Exercise" is maybe the key term, anyway - I don't hear it as an inspired song in the least.

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 06:38 (6 years ago) Permalink

Hmmmm. Genre: Let's say Fun Sing-along Cheerleader Pop (going back to the Routers "Let's Go," maybe mixed with Little Eva's "Locomotion," though not as good as that.

I do think the wit that Mordy sees in it is there, and the beauty in the harmonies that I perceive in it is there; but it's not taking me over the top. A good little song, though.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 07:36 (6 years ago) Permalink

I think I love Fun Sing-along Cheerleader Pop! And I didn't even know it!

Seriously, though: And now I'm reading Avril's current song in the context of her last two albums - hasn't Avril always been the anti-Cheerleader? Sk8r Boi (or however you spell it), for instance. And I remember a Spin Magazine article that called her the anti-Britney. Is it the clapping that makes it fun sing-along? And it's fun for me, but I wouldn't say it's fun for Avril. There's a lot of tensions in the song. I think the sing-along part is just a smokescreen.

― Mordechai Shinefield (Mordy), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 08:55 (6 years ago) Permalink

Also, I've noticed I've started clapping along to the song. And mouthing the refrains. This has worried my wife. Hell. This has worried me. Sitting next to me, while I was listening to the song, she frowned. I asked why and she said that she didn't like the fact that Avril was coming on to me (as a listener/male) so aggressively. I think she was joking, but certainly there's an element of that going on: Avril is playing a seductress.

― Mordechai Shinefield (Mordy), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 09:17 (6 years ago) Permalink

i love the avril song on first listen! i have not much else to say as i was listening to it v quietly on laptop speakers at 11.30 last night, but i love the "motherfucking princess" line, mostly because - contra paris who IS the motherfucking princess and therefore doesn't need to say it - avril isn't any sort of proper princess, she's a punky brat who's staking an entirely illegitimate claim to princessdom (ie she is the kind of girl who says "motherfucking").

i find it bizarre to think that avril is MARRIED these days.

simon reynolds is insufferable, seriously. he only annoys me particularly because so many people i know and like still respect him from whatever good stuff he did fifteen years ago, but every word i've ever read by him has been smug, condescending, wrong-headed and completely phony.

i just heard the jessica simpson album which came out in the states last year - apart from 'a public affair' which is amazing, the rest is kind of...very bad. her voice really is peculiarly charmless and grating. also, she looks well rough on the cover.

― antidote against poisoning (lex pretend), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 09:37 (6 years ago) Permalink

hasn't Avril always been the anti-Cheerleader? Sk8r Boi (or however you spell it), for instance

overall, the track feels like a genre exercise

"Hi, we're Spinal Tap. Hope you like our new direction. This is JAZZ ODYSSEY"

It's funny how some acts carry more baggage than others. I too like the new Avril single, but knowing that it IS Avril means I'm asking myself: why this song, why now?

By contrast, all Girls Aloud singles are genre exercises in a way, but that's what I think a lot of people like about them. The only expectation of them is that they surprise us. I also remember a lot of poptimists - can't remember if Lex was one of them - saying the 2nd Rachel Stevens album was great because she was a blank canvas upon which producers could paint exciting ideas. (As it happens, I didn't agree with that take, but whatever.)

― zebedee (zebedee), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 14:00 (6 years ago) Permalink

the avril single sucks.

I thought the girls have split up, but then I saw that "walk this way" cover yesterday. so what's the deal?

― groovemaan (groove nihilist), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 14:06 (6 years ago) Permalink

Lex, did you make it through to the end of the Jessica? It actually gets better. Also, "grating" might be one of the things that's good - or at least interesting - about "Push Your Tush," which is another one of the strangely ambitious mix-and-match tracks that the pop mainstream has been putting forth in the last couple of years: Gwen's "Hollaback Girl" and Jessica's "These Boots Are Made For Walkin'" being my two favorites, "Tush" being so-so. My main problem with Jessica is when she goes blah, which she does a lot on this album. She's also kind of bizarre when she tries to signify "sexy," as opposed to merely being sexy, which she's fine at. My favorite non-"Affair" tracks are "Between You And I," a slow-burning Mariah-goes-rock-n-roll ballad (though I wish it burned more), and, especially, the genuinely hot "Fired Up" - though it exhibits the sexy vs. "sexy" tension, since it's both: when she's just letting the voice loose, she is sexy, whereas when she goes breathy she's just camp. But it's a strong track, good rhythms and Asian orchestral riffs pulling it all together and basically making its flaws moot. Also real good are "I Don't Want To Care" (just a straightup slow sorrow dance) and "B.O.Y.," which as I'm listening I'm realizing may be even better than "Fired Up." It's an '80s-style dance track, smart use of freestyle backing riff, vocodors (there, but not too heavily), even breathiness, this time not blown in your face.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 15:08 (6 years ago) Permalink

"Fergalicious" is another one of my favorite recent mix-and-matchers. I prefer Fergie grating to Fergie pious, though Fergie being gorgeous in a grating context - "Fergalicous" - is excellent too.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 15:17 (6 years ago) Permalink

Also (in regard to Jessica), "bizarre" and "camp" aren't always bad; "Boots" manages to stop and shift without losing its momentum. The rhythm is in clave, for you fans of Latin rhythms in mainstream pop countrified Nancy Sinatra covers on redneck rock soundtracks.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 15:33 (6 years ago) Permalink

yeah i wasn't a big fan of 'boots' though...it's ok i suppose but nothing which made me return to it.

i liked 'fired up' (storch!) and 'i don't want to care', but the former suffers from being an inferior version of paris's 'turn it up' (jessica even interpolates the melody of it) and the latter isn't quite as abject and nihilistic as it needs to be.

i really dislike everything else, the 80s production steez seems laid on a bit too thickly, she never convinces as a performer...as for the slightly mad country songs, it might be that i don't like country, but when she keeps yelling "yee-haw!" i just get this sense of TRYING TOO HARD.

(gave the album two stars in the end.)

― antidote against poisoning (lex pretend), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 15:42 (6 years ago) Permalink

The Jessica album's ratio of good stuff to bad stuff is about standard for most current pop stars I love (and I wouldn't yet put Jessica in the "love" category, though "Public Affair" and the Peter Rauhofer remix of "I Think I'm In Love With You" elicited that emotion), since these days most of the pop I love is by people with very different sensibilities from mine, hence they'll do great stuff that I wouldn't think of doing or that I wouldn't feel right doing, and they'll do godawful stuff that I would know better than to do. This is why it was shocking to me that the Paris album had no bad songs (it did go a bit limp on the last two). But Paris's lack of bad songs could just be because she knows her voice can't handle ballads.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 17:19 (6 years ago) Permalink

Surfin' Bird: The new M.I.A. track is cacophonous to beat almost all pop music cacophony. You can hear the feathers flying. This is NOISE! Hilarious. I like it a lot.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 17:25 (6 years ago) Permalink

i love the "motherfucking princess" line, mostly because - contra paris who IS the motherfucking princess and therefore doesn't need to say it - avril isn't any sort of proper princess, she's a punky brat who's staking an entirely illegitimate claim to princessdom (ie she is the kind of girl who says "motherfucking").

Completely fail to see the appeal in this. Who freaking cares?

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 17:52 (6 years ago) Permalink

Word to Tim. The problem with:

contra paris who IS the motherfucking princess and therefore doesn't need to say it - avril isn't any sort of proper princess, she's a punky brat who's staking an entirely illegitimate claim to princessdom (ie she is the kind of girl who says "motherfucking").

Is that Paris is the type of girl who says "motherfucking" (and more), and I don't see how her claim to princesshood is any more legitimate than Avril's. If anything, Avril's a better princess than Paris--she gets to spit on the paparazzi and then laugh about it, while Paris just thanks them for filling up her gas tank. (Plus they sell tiaras at Claire's now, and everybody's got a Balenciaga; "princess" as a female identity is commonplace; see My Super Sweet Sixteen for details.)

My favorite part of "Girlfriend" is the instrumental push at :09 and again at :21. The rest doesn't live up to that power for me. I can't feel her fully committing to anything within this track--the scrawly vocal is an affectation, and she doesn't seem entirely comfortable with the singsong and chanting, too halting or something. And the lyrics are dumber than usual ("she's like, so whatever"), to the point where this strikes me as a parody of...somebody. Not sure who. The opening shout and the instruments at :09 act like she's about to be a big deal, but they lie--she stays light and bratty through, vocally and lyrically.

― Nia (girlboymusic), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 19:46 (6 years ago) Permalink

See, I think they're both princesses. However in Avril's case I think she has a sense of humor about it. What always bothered me about Paris is that she...

Whatever. Now I'm just repeating myself.

― Mordechai Shinefield (Mordy), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 19:59 (6 years ago) Permalink

How does Avril's aesthetic have anything to do with a princess aesthetic?

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 20:06 (6 years ago) Permalink

Maybe we need to define what the word princess means. Obviously I'm not talking about a princess in the context of Marjorie Morningstar, Goodbye Columbus, etc (http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2005/03/13/the_return_of_the_jap/).

I'm referring to her self-entitlement in the song. The fact that she's trying to steal someone's boyfriend. The very words: "I'm a motherfucking princess." Etc.

― Mordechai Shinefield (Mordy), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 20:13 (6 years ago) Permalink

I don't see a somewhat joke-y line about boyfriend entitlement as being analogous to material entitlement. Avril is supposed to be DIY/subversive, right? That's why I see the line as a throwaway.

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 20:17 (6 years ago) Permalink

You must be reading the entire song as a joke. I'm reading it as mostly straight-forward: and the particular lines as modifying that. I don't see any reason to believe that the overall meaning is just tongue-in-cheek.

― Mordechai Shinefield (Mordy), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 20:24 (6 years ago) Permalink

The whole thing strikes me as vapid play-acting.

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 20:27 (6 years ago) Permalink

hasn't Avril always been the anti-Cheerleader?

yeah, she's hanging out w/ the (can't quite make up her mind) the sk8er punks... unless it's the artsy fartsies she's hangin' out w/... or the singer-songwriters, the freaks, the quasi-intellectuals [it does get all mixed up].

But... OK, "Girlfriend" is generic "cheerleader" from 25 to 45 or 55 years ago; actual nowadays cheerleaders are going to be shakin' tushes to modern-day r&b. ("Girlfriend" draws on a long-ago r&b.)

(Hard to talk about being anti-mainstream when being anti-mainstream is so mainstream.)

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 20:35 (6 years ago) Permalink

(Fwiw, I think Paris is way more Warhol superstar than heiress princess, even if she happens to be an heiress. In other words, self-invented. She reminds me more [as I said] of Robert Mitchum or Lydia Lunch. But I'm putting this in parenthesis because I don't know much about the Paris phenomenon but I do think she made the loveliest dance album of 2006.)

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 20:42 (6 years ago) Permalink

Is the loveliness ruined at all for you by the fact that she has been filmed using the word "nigger" in public?

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 20:46 (6 years ago) Permalink

In part, I didn't buy into "Stars Are Blind" because of the gratuitous solipsism - who cares about her sexuality and who wants to hear her boasting about guys wanting to commit suicide because she dumped them? Also - the sexuality in the video was grotesque.

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 20:50 (6 years ago) Permalink

I didn't watch the video, but I think I'll do that now. I love the Grotesque - saw a great Otto Dix show at the Met recently.

― Mordechai Shinefield (Mordy), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 21:00 (6 years ago) Permalink

(The reason I ask "Who cares about her sexuality?" is because of the presentation, of course, which is basically just tasteless pornography with this lame egoistic element - all of which I say, "Who cares?" to.)

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Wednesday, 7 February 2007 21:05 (6 years ago) Permalink

With Love isn't even good enough to be a Rachel Stevens b-side. If this is the best she (or her people) can come up with, Hilary Duff is never going to be a good pop star. There is just a stage of OK-ness that she can't surpass. I actually like her as a celebrity, she seems sweet and jolly, so I do listen to her music wanting to like it, but every time it has that same effect of being acceptable but nowhere near the quality of the music European acts such as Margaret Berger and Linda Sundblad can create a whole album worth of, and they have none of the money or power propelling their careers that Hilary has as a world-famous celebrity.

As for Avril, she's another teen-pop star I've never really got on board with, but I'm extremely surprised to find I may soon be changing my stance. What I don't understand is how she can sound younger and more fun now that she's grown up and married? Now she sounds about 12, like she's taken cues from Shebang, Kim-Lian, Shampoo or Blog 27! Certainly not what I expected from her new material. I don't know if any of you at all are familiar with Shebang, a female Swedish teen duo from a few years ago, but look them up if you like this. Romeo and Temple Of Love are amazing. How is she going to combine this with her new grown-up image? It's confusing but I'm not complaining. All singers should follow Avril in ditching all serious musicianship in favour of music aimed at the under-10s!

― Jessica P (Jessica P), Thursday, 8 February 2007 01:25 (6 years ago) Permalink

Also, some teen-pop (or music aimed at teenagers, anyway) I've been listening to a lot recently & haven't seen discussed here:

Damone - Out Here All Night
Young Love - Discotech (amazing song, surely has to be huge?)
The Hush Sound - Wine Red (old-ish but good)

― Jessica P (Jessica P), Thursday, 8 February 2007 01:37 (6 years ago) Permalink

I was wondering what "Girlfriend" would sound like with Blog 27 singing. I think that their slightly-off English pronunciations would help it a lot in the lyrics department (like what they did for "Hey Boy"). "So whuddevah" Blog 27-style would be an improvement, for instance. Unfortunately, under-10s will only hear the new Avril if it crosses over to Top 40 radio, because Radio Disney won't touch this with a ten-foot pole (though I wouldn't mind being proven wrong). Way to "edge" yerself right out of kid-friendly, dumbass!! No wonder they took her picture off the RD site finally (and stuck Hannah up there).

― nameom (nameom), Thursday, 8 February 2007 01:52 (6 years ago) Permalink

(I suppose the under-10s could buy her album or watch TRL while it still lasts or go on the internet or something else, too.)

― nameom (nameom), Thursday, 8 February 2007 01:57 (6 years ago) Permalink

So who's going to be listening to the new Avril? Anyone at all? Her old fans will surely be too old themselves for this sort of thing now, adults will be quick to dismiss it for being too brashly teenage (despite her no longer being a teenager), and if Radio Disney aren't playing it, it'll miss out on the pre-teen audience it's actually perfect for. I think it's a great new direction, but only from the point of view of my own tastes - I can't see how it's going to sell, although I never really understand what does well in America so I won't make too strong a prediction.

― Jessica P (Jessica P), Thursday, 8 February 2007 02:08 (6 years ago) Permalink

Jessica who do you think "her old fans" are?

― Haikunym (Haikunym), Thursday, 8 February 2007 02:16 (6 years ago) Permalink

I love her voice. It sounds drenched in scotch and Lucky Strikes. (upthread)

Today's Washington Post has a rather sad profile of Amy Winehouse, the British soulstress whose voice sounds like it's been soaked in bourbon, and how she's made her way across the pond. (Idolator)

So we've narrowed it down...but Mordy gets the edge for not following up with this:

Sure, her label is going to try the Starbucks route, as well as the "blitzing every genre" route, but it's hard not to worry that her persona will overshadow all of those marketing initiatives---and that she'll become nothing more than the next Britney Spears, without even a "...Baby One More Time" under her belt.

(WashPost's sopping metaphor in "100-PROOF VOICE" -- "Hers is a voice marinated in regret and pulsing with pain, yet soaked in snarkiness while fully rooted in the saccharine sensibilities of '60s girl groups." -- is a distant third.)

― nameom (nameom), Thursday, 8 February 2007 04:25 (6 years ago) Permalink

Yeah. Whateva. I said Scotch. Not Bourbon. Idiots can't recognize what kind of alcohol has stained the singer's voice.

Also - I was talking about Dorothy Parker (whom I love), and they were talking about Amy Winehouse (whom I don't). Also, I think I get an edge because of the Lucky Strikes, which Idolator totally missed out on.

― Mordechai Shinefield (Mordy), Thursday, 8 February 2007 06:18 (6 years ago) Permalink

Jessica, Avril Lavigne was a top 40 star on her first album in 2002, which at the time (downloads not being counted) means she was pulling a lot more than just Disney and just teens (teens and Disney not being identical), and she got and still gets played on adult contemporary radio, "My Happy Ending" continuing to get plays as what Mediabase calls "a recurrent" on top 40 and adult contemporary radio. "Keep Holding On" peaked at 17 on the Billboard Top 100 late last year, fueled by downloads, but in fact it's still rising in top 40 airplay (24 with a bullet) and adult contemporary airplay (16 with a bullet; 9 with a bullet on what's called "Hot AC"). Wikipedia claims that "Girlfriend"'s release has been pushed back to late this month because of the continuing success of "Keep Holding On." So Avril has a non-Disney radio presence that Hilary Duff, for instance, never had, which means that music directors will at least give her new single a listen. That said, "Girlfriend" doesn't particularly match up with anything currently on the radio. I can imagine top 40 and active AC listeners liking its bright playful handclap sound - it references a similar hit from 25 years ago, and there's no taboo against playful sounds on top 40 and AC radio - but I can just as easily imagine the listeners responding with "no thanks." Dr. Luke hasn't had a hit here in 12 months, and sure the Veronicas and Megan McCauley didn't have much name recognition to build a hit on, and Paris's "Nothing In This World" runs against Paris hate, and Pink's "U & Ur Hand" was something of a botch, but still, he's probably not exciting music directors. We'll see.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Thursday, 8 February 2007 07:41 (6 years ago) Permalink

(Btw, my favorite Avril songs, other than "Complicated," are the Clif Magness dark thick metal towers, "Mobile" and "Unwanted" especially. I way prefer Avril's singing to Amy Lee's. But the attempt to get that stuff on the radio - "Losing Grip" - flopped back in 2003.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Thursday, 8 February 2007 07:59 (6 years ago) Permalink

Xhuxk's a big fan of Damone. I listened to their album once during my December dash; likable but seemed to fall short for reasons I couldn't articulate.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Thursday, 8 February 2007 08:05 (6 years ago) Permalink

Paik's "Venosa" is the hot song of the moment. At least, it appears as my number four single of 2006 on my Pazz & Jop ballot, which is an impressive showing, considering I never even heard it. (Did check out Paik's MySpace page, though no song by that name appears there. Band sounds like quaaludes. Actually, I've never taken a quaalude, so I don't know what I'm saying.)

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Thursday, 8 February 2007 08:09 (6 years ago) Permalink

By the way, what do you people think of the Goo Goo Dolls? Going to see 'em in Colorado Springs in a couple of weeks with a fan who's 12 years old (and with her mom, whom I used to date).

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Thursday, 8 February 2007 09:26 (6 years ago) Permalink

Avril's 'old fans', at least in this country, would be girls about my age or a bit younger, the kind who wanted to be her first time around, and the kind who don't want to associate themselves with what they liked 5 years ago. Now they like rock or indie or James Blunt. Maybe some of them have got through that boring anti-fun music phase, but probably not the majority.

― Jessica P (Jessica P), Thursday, 8 February 2007 11:37 (6 years ago) Permalink

Okay I see. here, many of Avril's fans are still teenagers -- or even pre-teens like my daughter. Of course, many of them are older guys on this very thread.

― Haikunym (Haikunym), Thursday, 8 February 2007 14:11 (6 years ago) Permalink

(Woops, forgot you were talking about Dorothy! Sorry...I thought that was strange in context with your two-word review.) Meanwhile I googled "soaked" and "drenched" and "Amy Winehouse" and came up with about a thousand results. Still working on "dripping," "marinated," etc.

I could see "Girlfriend" making a nice place for itself on the TRL countdown, actually, but I'm not sure how much life the show has left in it, either in terms of it sticking around or its power as a Top 40 crossover point. ...I'm also hoping that Skye didn't do anything remotely similar to this with Dr. Luke/Max -- ironic that by essentially moving closer to Skye (who was never actually Avril Lite), Avril might have put Skye in the position of seeming to be a copycat again!

― nameom (nameom), Thursday, 8 February 2007 14:55 (6 years ago) Permalink

The numbers seem to show that Avril's got fans of many ages. I would have expected in the U.S. that Avril's former teen fans wouldn't be too embarrassed by their previous fandom, and the ones that would be embarrassed wouldn't be the Blunt fans, might be the indie fans, and most likely would be the ones into "real" punk.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Thursday, 8 February 2007 17:06 (6 years ago) Permalink

In Billboard chart land, "Year 3000" is the Hot Shot Debut at #40, though I seriously doubt it has any real crossover appeal. Most likely, like the Hannah Montana songs and High School Musical songs and "Push It to the Limit" it will swiftly fall off the charts. Katharine McPhee's "Over It" debuts at #48, and I legitimately could see the song making a nice climb up the charts. Of course, I could also see it flopping due to its similarity to "Too Little, Too Late". I hope it succeeds.

― Greg Fanoe (JustFanoe), Thursday, 8 February 2007 17:12 (6 years ago) Permalink

If you've been watching Disney Channel, you will have noted that they're asking kids to go to their website and tell them what to do about HSM2 -- basically, 'tell us what you want and we'll give it to you.' Which is like whoa.

― Haikunym (Haikunym), Thursday, 8 February 2007 17:24 (6 years ago) Permalink

Goo Goo Dolls. I haven't listened to them since they wrote that song for that John Travolta/Meg Ryan movie. City of Angels, or something like that. I remember the lyrics go: "I don't want the whole world to see me, cause I don't think that they'd understand..." Iris. I think that was it.

Anyway, I liked that. But I haven't heard anything since then.

― Mordechai Shinefield (Mordy), Thursday, 8 February 2007 19:40 (6 years ago) Permalink

I think the thing with The Brothers Jonas is why is it happening now, when the song has been knocking around for a good year at least? Have they only just got pushed properly or some such?

― William Bloody Swygart (mrswygart), Thursday, 8 February 2007 22:43 (6 years ago) Permalink

Well, the Jonases were never pushed properly...I think this might be the effect of Disney mobilization; the impact of rotation/success on RD might finally be filtering out to mainstream radio, video, etc. (The video's pretty old, too, from what I can tell.) This is somewhat unique, because as far as I know it's the only recent non-Disney-produced (and therefore Disney-marketed) act that has had this kind of success from outside the immediate Hollywood/Walt Disney Recs system. There might be an analogous case in, say, Jump5, but that was before Disney really took control of their own product. I wouldn't be surprised at all if the Jonases resurface on Hollywood Recs, though.

― nameom (nameom), Friday, 9 February 2007 02:05 (6 years ago) Permalink

Jonas Brothers now are on Hollywood Records, according to Wikipedia. So I'm making no sense of the Jonas Brothers suddenly charting. And why a jump to 40, rather than a slow climb? They and their old label, Columbia, obviously hadn't been seeing eye-to-eye. Release was scheduled for May, album was finally released in August, and the band was dropped a month or so later. So why would Columbia suddenly be pushing "Year 3000" now? Or is there a tie-in to a TV commercial? Neither Wikipedia nor Billboard is helpful on this point.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Friday, 9 February 2007 02:30 (6 years ago) Permalink

According to Mediabase, there's no Jonas Brothers airplay on top 40, and miniscule airplay on adult contemporary. Given that "Year 3000" has been on Radio Disney for - what? - 10 months? - there must have been a decision at Columbia to release the track digitally. Maybe there's some legal stuff: maybe Columbia needed a release from Hollywood to put the track out; or maybe Columbia was forced by some legal settlement to put it out. I'm just making up reasons. "Year 3000" entered the Billboard download chart this week at number 20.

Or did Billboard suddenly decide to count Radio Disney plays in its Hot 100 formula? But then Hannah and Corbin and Vanessa would be up there, too.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Friday, 9 February 2007 02:48 (6 years ago) Permalink

Fred Bronson speaks(though doesn't say much):

"IT WAS A VERY GOOD 'YEAR': In 2003, the youthful U.K. band Busted had a No. 2 hit in Britain with "Year 3000," but the song, and the group, never crossed the pond to become a U.S. hit. Four years later, the song finally arrives on the Hot 100, but not by the defunct Busted.

This version of "Year 3000" is by the Jonas Brothers and is from their Columbia Records debut, "It's About Time," released in 2006. The act has already left the label and has signed with Disney's Hollywood Records. The brothers' Hot 100 debut at No. 40 is fueled by repeated broadcasts of the song's video on the Disney Channel. Only two songs have had higher debuts in 2007. Fall Out Boy holds the record, with a No. 2 bow for "This Ain't a Scene, It's an Arms Race." In second place is Corbin Bleu's "Push It to the Limit," which jumped on at No. 14.

The lyrics to "Year 3000" have been updated for the Jonas Brothers' version. A reference to Michael Jackson in the Busted original has been changed to Kelly Clarkson. "

― Greg Fanoe (JustFanoe), Friday, 9 February 2007 03:37 (6 years ago) Permalink

I'm pretty happy about the singles chart this week. Furtado's "Say It Right" is at number 2. Lloyd's "You" is up to number 9. Lil Wayne's got two guest shots in the top 20.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Friday, 9 February 2007 03:55 (6 years ago) Permalink

The odd thing about Nelly Furtado is, the albums been around for months, got lots of acclaim and a high debut. It's spawned 2 massive hits, including the #2 most popular single of 2006 (and probably the defining song of 2006 in America. That or "SexyBack" or "Crazy"), and one minor hit. But yet the album hasn't really done that well. It's only just gone gold and still hasn't gone platinum.

― Greg Fanoe (JustFanoe), Friday, 9 February 2007 04:12 (6 years ago) Permalink

While watching ABC the other day, I saw a promo for Desparate Housewives that used "Let Go" by Vanessa Hudgens as the background music. Going for crossover play, maybe?

― Greg Fanoe (JustFanoe), Friday, 9 February 2007 04:55 (6 years ago) Permalink

Storch is a producer on at least one track, my guess either "Be Good To Me" or "Not Like That."

Apparently not "Be Good to Me." Footage of Ashley recording that with Kara here. (There was a podcast? When? All my iTunes can find is some karaoke thing.)

― Nia (girlboymusic), Friday, 9 February 2007 05:07 (6 years ago) Permalink

Strange thing is that Kara so obviously seems like the better singer when she's instructing Ashley, but I think I prefer Ashley's "Be Good To Me" to anything on the Platinum Weird, even "Avalanche," though I probably think the latter is a better song.

There is a mystery of Kara. For me to say "Oh, she wants someone else to work through" seems too... I don't know... clichéd? And I doubt that working with Ashley Tisdale is much like working with someone like Ashlee Simpson, since with Ashley with a y there doesn't seem to be any persona or self-expression at issue, or even a vocalist's identity (though I find Tisdale pleasing as a vocalist). Kara's got a stronger personality with Platinum Weird.

(But then, I made the decision to deprive myself of TV in 1999, which means I've never seen the Ashlee Simpson Show, and never got a glimpse of how she, John, and Ashlee created the woman who sang Autobiography.)

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Friday, 9 February 2007 06:53 (6 years ago) Permalink

I really like when Kara is telling Ashley that a particular part should be sung "all joined," since the song is beginning its story and (I think this is what Kara is implying) the delivery therefore shouldn't be too emphatic or precise yet.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Friday, 9 February 2007 07:06 (6 years ago) Permalink

I'm listening to "Avalanche" to make sure. Once again at the start I'm thinking "this is incredible" while by the end I'm thinking "I'd rather this were more about an avalanche and less like an avalanche itself, because it bowls me over more than I want it to." I like how Kara starts with these three-word phrases that feel like power riffs but leave a lot of space: "And I lie" [s_p_a_c_e], "and I learn" [s_p_a_c_e], "how to live" [s_p_a_c_e], "in the hurt" [s_p_a_c_e]. But then when everything - groove, power chords, wail - comes together, it's too much.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Friday, 9 February 2007 07:28 (6 years ago) Permalink

Quick off-topic Q: Is the chord progression from Duff's Come Clean am f c g? I'm not really good at that kind of stuff, but it sounds strikingly similar to me.

― Mordechai Shinefield (Mordy), Friday, 9 February 2007 09:44 (6 years ago) Permalink

"Come Clean" (the dance remix, which is all I have on my comp) is in Abm, a half-step down, but the chord progression is close to am f c g (vi IV I V), except instead of the V, she goes to the II (D maj in your progression, Db maj in the song).

― nameom (nameom), Friday, 9 February 2007 13:48 (6 years ago) Permalink

If you start Am rather than A-flat-m, these are the first four chords I learned on the guitar, though the order I learned them was Am, C, D, F ("House Of The Rising Sun"; also "For Your Love" and "Tales Of Brave Ulysses" and (in major rather than minor) "(I'm Not Your) Steppin' Stone"). I knew there was some reason why I liked "Come Clean" especially.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Friday, 9 February 2007 18:13 (6 years ago) Permalink

I'm confused by these doubts regarding the sincerity of the Paris album. There was never a thought in my mind that it was ironic in its sensibilities, and I found that to be one of the most endearing things about it. Is it just a general feeling that Paris is unlikely to write songs as sweet as Stars Are Blind without a tongue in cheek?

One line in Nothing in This World stands out in my mind: "I can do what she can do so much better." That line would be ironic in its arrogance for anyone else, but for Paris it's sincere! She is overwhelmingly confident about her attractiveness, and this is in fact the REASON she's considered attractive by the mainstream (she's certainly not attractive from an physically objective standpoint)*. There's Paris-ness all over that record, and in a very frank and real way.

The Avril single is as invigorating as music gets. There may not be that much to sink your teeth into, but it's a wonderful opening salvo.

I like With Love, but to me it sounds like it could have been taken off any Cassius album. Hilary had seemed to be building a sound of her own, and that's gone from this song. And, more worryingly, I'm not sure Hilary's voice is up to the task of handling aggressive dancepop. The guitar fills on it are wonderful.

*This sort of media manipulation would have delighted Warhol, and will likely result in gay icon status for Paris, if she doesn't have it already.

― Matt Armstrong (gensu3k1), Friday, 9 February 2007 18:21 (6 years ago) Permalink

uh oh, methinks Avril's gonna get slapped with a plagiarism suit (mp3)

Thanks to FT's Pete for pointing this out. Mind you, this Rubinoos song is itself sorta derived from The Ramones' "I Wanna Be Your Boyfriend", so maybe they won't have the cheek to sue.

― zebedee (zebedee), Friday, 9 February 2007 18:59 (6 years ago) Permalink

Matt, I think I agree with you about the Paris album, though to be honest, I've been loving the album for months without focusing in on the lyrics. But I do want to make a pedantic point; "irony" and "sincerity" are unrelated concepts. That is, you can be ironic while meaning what you say, and conversely you can tell a straightup lie. "Irony" means saying something in a way that communicates its opposite, but that doesn't imply that you're not willing to commit to what you're communicating. The uses of irony are complex, and I won't go into them, but I think a lot of times when people say "irony" they mean something a bit different, more akin to quotation marks. E.g., "do you want to see an action flick or an 'art' movie." Art is in quotation marks because the speaker wants to communicate that he doesn't completely buy into all the implications of the term. Quotation marks aren't necessarily insincere either. They suggest a discomfort with the language at hand, either because these are the only terms available but you don't buy into all their implications, or because you want to use the terms but you don't know how much of a right you have to them. If this is done with bad faith it can be irritating, as if to say, "We're doing this but we know better." But then, a lot of entertainment works by going "We're doing this, but it's just pretend," which isn't always bad faith, but can be a way of stepping beyond yourself and allowing you to do something you wouldn't do otherwise. When the B-52s wore beehive hairdos, there were implied quotation marks, but I took what they were doing as not saying "Oh, we're more sophisticated than those people who really wore beehives back in the day," but rather, "We want to appropriate the exuberance of beehives for ourselves, but we know that their time of original exuberance is past, so this is partly about our distance from and desire for that exuberance." I don't take that as insincere or as working with a safety net.

I haven't noticed anything like that on the Paris album, but then again I don't know her persona well enough to know when she might be playing with it. I wouldn't mind if she were (depends on how she does it); I'm just not noticing.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Friday, 9 February 2007 19:40 (6 years ago) Permalink

(Haven't seen the writing credits to "Girlfriend," so it's possible a Rubino is included. Complex thing, what is considered stealing; after all, other than the "Hey, you" part - which is taken from the Stones originally - the two songs aren't so similar.)(By the way, as far as I know, we're still not allowed to post mp3's on ilX.)

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Friday, 9 February 2007 19:50 (6 years ago) Permalink

we'll have to wait for mordechai to reply, but what I drew from his comments was that Paris' album insincerely projected a princess persona ("wink-wink"), and may have even been self-effacing! My contention is that this persona really IS Paris, and that she is confident and happy to sound as imperious and arrogant as she does on the album.

You're quite right that irony does not imply a lack of sincerity, but I do feel it is a barrier to it. It's not so much a safety net as a mask.

I like a lot of soulless pop records, but Paris isn't one.

― Matt Armstrong (gensu3k1), Friday, 9 February 2007 20:15 (6 years ago) Permalink

xpost

(I know Frank, but it's legit online audio - I think - hosted by the band's own site so I thought it would be OK)

― zebedee (zebedee), Friday, 9 February 2007 20:17 (6 years ago) Permalink

I've got the Sabbath rolling in, so this is probably my last comment until tomorrow night. But Matt, I'll try to answer you.

I don't think Paris's album is insincere in the least. I still think though that she has enough self-consciousness to play a little with her identity. I wrote a long analysis of the lyrics of Stars are Blind in last year's thread to that affect. Which is to say: She could be sincere about her identity ("imperious and arrogant," though I wouldn't use those particular words) and still have a sense of humor about it. To wit: I consider myself an Orthodox Jew, but that doesn't stop me from making jokes about it, or playing with the meaning of that identity. (Or more exact: I can make fun of my character traits, beliefs, etc.) Actually, I think part of presenting a persona is being able to play with it. My problem with Paris is that I find her particular brand of wink-wink very soulless. I understand you disagree ("...but Paris isn't one") and I'm not sure I could, or would want to convince you otherwise.

Which is to say, I think she's being ironic. And that has nothing to do with the reason I dislike her. Actually, the irony is part of the reason I can deal with Stars are Blind, but find some of the rest of the album absolutely humorless. It's also why I really love the Avril Lavigne song. I think her use of identity is much more conscious, fluid, and fun. By comparison: I love Kafka, because I find he's hysterical, even when he's discussing alienation. I can't stand Coetzee because though he deals with similar themes of alienation, he is completely humorless about it.

― Mordechai Shinefield (Mordy), Friday, 9 February 2007 21:54 (6 years ago) Permalink

Important point about "Nothing in This World": Paris's love/lust is unrequited at the end of the song! This is ironic, y'know "deep" irony, not just a wink-wink. The narrative here is that this guy passes her by (he doesn't just "pass her," "pass me by" has rejection implications -- don't pass me by, don't make me cry) and she spends the rest of the song trying to convince him (and herself) that she's totally worth it. (And when she talks about "pain" she could be describing his guilt for cheating or her feelings of impending rejection ("what are you waiting for? Most guys would die!"), which also might be what's attracting her to this guy in the first place ("here's what I like" is ambiguous -- it's not necessarily "here's the guy I like"). Anyway, what we think about her as Paris Hilton As Seen on TV doesn't change the fact that this guy hasn't actually made the decision to cheat on his girlfriend with her (and the song doesn't really suggest that he will, just that Paris thinks she should). So the potential for rejection in this situation is there regardless of how hot Paris thinks she is, or how hot we think she thinks she is, or how hot we think she is. The "dah dah dahs" are the sound of Paris dancing alone (and maybe that's fine with her, too, because she sounds like she's having fun).

― nameom (nameom), Friday, 9 February 2007 22:46 (6 years ago) Permalink

*Paris thinks HE should.

― nameom (nameom), Friday, 9 February 2007 22:48 (6 years ago) Permalink

Another good "Over It," a little old, is the one by wannabe Disney crossover artist Annaliese Van der Pol. I was reminded of this because (apparently) I just missed it on Radio Disney. They just did a major overhaul of their site, and despite some annoying problems (like automatic video startup and no Firefox compatibility) the online radio is excellent (if you use Explorer) -- they have a ticker that has a constant stream of messages from fans.

― nameom (nameom), Saturday, 10 February 2007 00:20 (6 years ago) Permalink

PROSTI-TOTS

― nameom (nameom), Saturday, 10 February 2007 00:20 (6 years ago) Permalink

Somewhat related:

"I'm Over It" by Everlife. This video is set to Hannah Montana clips oddly enough. Anyways, like I've found with most Everlife it's an OK pop song but nothing to intentionally listen to.

"Get Over It" by Avril. Though, the "I'm Over It" implication of all the previous and "Get Over It" meaning of this one are kinda opposite. Anyways, not one of the better Avril singles.

― Greg Fanoe (JustFanoe), Saturday, 10 February 2007 00:28 (6 years ago) Permalink

A. van der Pol will be playing Belle in "Beauty and the Beast" this summer on Broadway, the last one to play the role before the show closes after 11 years. I think she's funny.

― Haikunym (Haikunym), Saturday, 10 February 2007 01:50 (6 years ago) Permalink

A. van der Pol will be playing Belle in "Beauty and the Beast" this summer on Broadway, the last one to play the role before the show closes after 11 years. I think she's funny.

I've always liked her a lot on That's So Raven even though I hate the show.

― Greg Fanoe (JustFanoe), Saturday, 10 February 2007 02:59 (6 years ago) Permalink

you hate 'raven' but you watch 'zach and cody'? wow -- that's about a 180 from me.

― Haikunym (Haikunym), Saturday, 10 February 2007 03:24 (6 years ago) Permalink

you hate 'raven' but you watch 'zach and cody'? wow -- that's about a 180 from me.

No, I hate Zack and Cody too, though I do like Ashley Tisdale and Brenda song. I watch Hannah Montana and reruns of Phil of the Future, Lizzie McGuire, and Even Stevens.

― Greg Fanoe (JustFanoe), Saturday, 10 February 2007 04:05 (6 years ago) Permalink

Okay -- Even Stevens could sometimes be okay, and Lizzie's mom is pretty hot, and Phil can be amusingly surreal when it's not being crap. But if you watch Hannah Montana I can only assume that you are trying to kill your own brain from the inside. And I do NOT approve of that.

― Haikunym (Haikunym), Saturday, 10 February 2007 05:28 (6 years ago) Permalink

>>I can't stand Coetzee because though he deals with similar themes of alienation, he is >>completely humorless about it.

OTM! OTM!

Does it effect the discourse here the idea that it's very likely that nobody actually making the Paris CD were thinking about anything being read into her CD and its suggested intent, what with the high liklihood that the main thing on everyone's agenda was to record a zillion takes of everything, and try to find ones usable enough to then run through ProTools and a mess of other gear so as to approxiamte a listenable vocal track (and then, to be on the safe side, multitrack that four or more times whenever possible)?

My other point with this is that this is the reason I find it 'souless'. I hear the machinery of a studio processed a weak voice. Lindsay, Avril, even Mandy Moore, the fact that they can sing isn't a rockist sort of elitism. The fact that they can, unassisted, make coherent vocal sounds makes their intention unmediated, something you can read by its own merits.

(There's a funny bit in the Bonus Materials for the Buffy musical. Joss Whedon wanted everyone to really sing. Allyson Hannigan was terrified, as she can't sing at all, and begged Whedon not to write any songs for her. We see her in the studio, she gestures at the gear, notes its ability to make a sow sound like caruso or the like, and laughs, "What was I WORRIED about??")

― Grey, Ian (IanBrooklyn), Saturday, 10 February 2007 07:07 (6 years ago) Permalink

(otoh, Spears' weak voice--not bad, just lacking oomph--gains a cool, even distressing/cool robo-chick thing via processing. )

― Grey, Ian (IanBrooklyn), Saturday, 10 February 2007 07:10 (6 years ago) Permalink

Anyway, the Paris thing makes me think of another record that was recorded by a then-friend.

The singer, now quite famous, couldn't yet sing--especially in the studio.

So he in some cases the producer literally crafted a lead vocal track from 20-odd other take,, sometimes literally building the vocal word by word, and then running that through the computer for pitch correction.

The result is terrific. But really, the singer is nothing more than a tone producer--the artist, the creator of sound and intent, was the producer.

Saying this record was 'by' the singer seem like saying an Eno track is by Robert Moog. Is what I'm thinking.

― Grey, Ian (IanBrooklyn), Saturday, 10 February 2007 07:23 (6 years ago) Permalink

(sorry about the English-as-second-language syntax--root canal and codeine.)

― Grey, Ian (IanBrooklyn), Saturday, 10 February 2007 07:25 (6 years ago) Permalink

Since the production part is (usually) speculative anyway, and we're dealing with the recorded output and effects, it is appropriate to "read into it" if there's a context for doing so (even if this wasn't the artist's or producer's or whoever's intention, though I'd be surprised if anyone making an album would be upset to discover that someone found a layer of meaning previously unknown to them. Which isn't to say it's impossible to mishear something, but sometimes mishearing can be more special than what's really there, like my imagined line in "I Live for the Day" ("I live for the day, I live for the night, when you will be desperate and I am in sight!").

If I hear a complete vocal track made up of a thousand individually recorded syllables and it moves me, why shouldn't I credit the producer of the voice, with whom I'm primarily identifying (as opposed to, say, the producer of the beat, which I might not care about nearly as much)? But then I don't hear the machinery in Paris's voice, or if I am, it's not hitting me as "machinery."

― nameom (nameom), Saturday, 10 February 2007 08:03 (6 years ago) Permalink

Al Green's vocal take on "Let's Stay Together," which everyone will admit is one of the most deeply soulful amazing vocal performances of all time, was pieced together one word at a time in the studio. Fortunately for his soulful reputation, Green was an amazing musician and could replicate it live.

― Haikunym (Haikunym), Saturday, 10 February 2007 13:48 (6 years ago) Permalink

I'm noy saying it's a matter of 'should', I'm just suggesting that, by identifying Paris as the asrtist, it possibly begins an string of speculations/theories about 'her' sense of self, irony, and so on.

I mean, if it's assumed that we're talking about an imagined persona/product or whatever, sort of like the most visible part of a large co-production effort, then those arguments work, I guess.

I'm not being this asthetic scold--absolute artificiality is, I think, often the apogee of pop wonder, and the reason I visit this thread.

But I feel like there's all this (wonderfully crafted) discourse about 'Paris' and her manipulation of image, and ironic iconic play, and so on, while I strongly suspect there actually is no Paris there--either in intent or in actual reality (who/what created her CD).

Which doesn't meanone couldn't write reams about absence and the manufactured pop identity and the real person sandwiched between.

― Grey, Ian (IanBrooklyn), Saturday, 10 February 2007 13:50 (6 years ago) Permalink

But we can say that there is irony, humor, sadness in her voice -- and that it's her irony, humor, sadness. We don't hear a voice simply as a product, we also hear a person, which is why I can't completely go along with this idea of "Paris as product" or "Paris as brand." I don't think it's possible to hear a human voice as "absolutely artificial," and that the sense of it being such in this case has more to do with social assumptions about who she is outside of the work -- if Johnny Cash sings a cover song, in fact makes an album on the premise that all of the words "aren't his," we say that he's "made" the words his: that's his anger, his humor, etc. And this doesn't even acknowledge the fact that Paris was directly involved in the writing process, even if it meant scribbling a few words on a page (how else are you gonna write a song?).

And, further, I can be moved by "artificiality," too -- Margaret Berger in "Robot Song" moves me as both Margaret and her robo-lover ("another time, another place, another world"....wait, isn't that Van Morrison?) and in fact I'm moved because she's playing the robot, enacting the other side of her love story. I wouldn't make that argument for Paris, but I would say that whatever vocal effects are being made through computer multi-tracking whatever are the same vocal effects that are engaging me as a listener, and it's within those effects that I do hear sadness, humor, irony, along with the words on the page. The sadness/humor/irony's in what she says and how she says it. Unless that's really Scott Storch's processed multi-tracked voice, in which case it's how he says it.

― nameom (nameom), Saturday, 10 February 2007 18:52 (6 years ago) Permalink

I agree with you in a general way, but when you say "We don't hear a voice simply as a product, we also hear a person" I think we get into really interestingly weird territory.

Like--you're recording line after line of takes into your hard drive. Eventually, you composite the best versions, whether word by word, or whatever. At a certain point, the vocal becomes, like, nobody's vocal, or to look at it another way, as an archetypical vocal, a finessed version of an emotion--very distanced from direct expression.

Which i guess begs the question of what 'direct' means, and why it might be better than something else. It also applies to sampling--which is, I think, the most accurate way to think of her vocals. When does a james brown sample, after being cut and effected and EQed and so on, stop being a signifier of something else--James Brown--and an integral part of a new text? It varies.

I totally agree that one can be moved by 'artificicialty'. I'm not arguing against that. I especially like it when artificiality becomes part of the text, like with The Knife or "O Superman" (obvious instances.)

But I think there's diminishing returns. Or at least, what you end up with is very, well, mediated. (This is *really* hard for me to explain.) Really, if only to be contrarian, I wanted to find the Paris CD brilliant--instead, I just sort of get the wiggins listening to it. And of course, that's just me.

― Grey, Ian (IanBrooklyn), Saturday, 10 February 2007 20:38 (6 years ago) Permalink

Well, you could argue that there is no direct expression in recorded music, only mediated expression (mediated by recording technology). So that keeps this from being a Big Problem, because the technical answer to "what is being directly expressed," on one level is "nothing, exactly." Except that's maybe not what you mean by direct.

But if by indirect you mean it sounds like a sample...I guess I have two arguments, one being that there are ways to create new meaning in vocal samples even when the effect seems to be "disembodying" or "objectifying" a voice, or divorcing it from signifying the original person -- like in a French house song, which, depending on the song, might turn a gorgeous vocal into wallpaper or draw attention to a very specific vocal phrase, giving it new meaning through repetition (some are ambiguous, like Hi Tack's "Say Say Say," which kind of has it both ways -- you get Michael Jackson as wallpaper). And sometimes the song is so extended that over time you have both reactions alternately. So sampling someone's voice might make his or her voice just as human, or "more human," as it was in its original context (like improving an old song and making an old performance even stronger by giving the vocals a new context, though I agree with you that this all of this varies).

The other argument specific to Paris is that I don't think that her voice comes across as a "sample," though I wouldn't necessarily disagree with this sort impression in another context -- like Iggy's vocals in "Punkrocker," where I do kind of get that feeling. Actually, Eppy makes a similar argument convincingly re: "Fighting Over Me," which I've previously described (Paris's performance) as "wallpaper." Paris also doesn't come across (to me) as "android," which is a description I might use for Hilary Duff or Cassie, and here I mean a kind of impersonal effect of a voice in the spotlight (not necessarily a mechanically processed effect), not the same as an impersonal effect of a voice denied the spotlight (Basement Jaxx does this sometimes). I actually get a very (directly) personal effect from Paris's vocals -- precisely because they're so stacked-up and meticulous. (And I'm definitely not arguing that the album is brilliant, in the American sense of the word, but that there's genuine feeling in it.)

― nameom (nameom), Saturday, 10 February 2007 21:25 (6 years ago) Permalink

xpost and I'm not going to rewrite this paragraph

Ian, I'm really not grasping your point. I don't think how the vocals were recorded and how many takes there were and how it was pieced together has anything to do one way or another with whether someone's being ironic. The question of how it was made and the question of whether it's ironic are completely separate. Mr. Bennet in Pride and Prejudice is one of the most wonderfully ironic characters in all of literature, and he's fictional. And Jane Austen started the book when she was twenty or twenty-one or something and and finished a draft a year later and then put it aside and came back to it, and it wasn't published until she was thirty-seven, and we have no idea how many times she reworked and reworded the scenes featuring Mr. Bennet, and nonetheless he's being ironic all through the book.

I sometimes revise my pieces several times, and editors can be involved in the process and make suggestions and provide wording, but nonetheless that doesn't have any bearing one way or another as to whether my tone is being ironic. It might have some bearing on whether we should call it "my" tone or "our" tone, but it's still the writer's tone, despite the writer being something of a collectivity; and there's no reason that the collectivity that helps create "Frank Kogan" can't be ironic, and if there's a collectivity that helps create "Paris Hilton," there's no reason that that collectivity can't be ironic and can't play with her image. For what it's worth, even when I'm writing all by my little lonesome I'm busy filching ironic devices from Chris Cook and Phil Dellio and Luc Sante. And nonetheless, when reading me, you need to be attuned to when I'm being ironic, no matter how many hands went into constructing that "I." So I'm not seeing an issue here.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Saturday, 10 February 2007 21:50 (6 years ago) Permalink

Well, you could argue that there is no direct expression in recorded music, only mediated expression (mediated by recording technology).

But I hope that you wouldn't argue this, because all you would accomplish would be to make the word "mediated" altogether vacuous and unable to be used to distinguish anything from anything else. I mean, you could argue that all sounds are loud and all temperatures are hot, if you want to make silence and absolute zero your criteria for softness and coolness, respectively. [Don't mind me. This is just a pet peeve of mine. For "mediated" to be an issue it has to make a difference. If "recording" technology makes me better able to achieve what I want to achieve, then it's not mediating my voice, it's helping to create it. Ditto for editing. And maybe Frank Plus Editor is a better voice and better entity than Frank alone. (But I wouldn't bet on it. And Frank Plus Word Limit is rarely an improvement.)]

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Saturday, 10 February 2007 22:01 (6 years ago) Permalink

By "direct," I mean exactly what Ian's talking about here, which is a performance that is somehow not made up of edits and changes and some form of technology. Maybe "mediated" wasn't the right word (actually, I'm not sure it's as wrong as you're suggesting, since I'm not claiming that mediation does make a difference, technology is just a basic means of conveyance...but I am kind of flattening the term "mediation" out to include all recorded music ever, hence setting off your pet peeve flag...how about "facilitated"?). Anyway I don't think this kind of "directness" (not touched by technology?) is really what's at issue here.

― nameom (nameom), Saturday, 10 February 2007 22:16 (6 years ago) Permalink

Or "created" or "constructed" expression might be more accurate. The problem is that to say "direct expression is that expression which is not technologically manipulated" disallows any recorded music from being "direct." So "direct," in order to have any useful meaning, can only be in relation to the reception of expression, not the production (or creation or construction) of expression.

― nameom (nameom), Saturday, 10 February 2007 22:21 (6 years ago) Permalink

But what I really came here to say is that Belinda's rerecorded her excellent "Ni Freud Ni Tu Mamá" with English vocals, the title being rendered in English as "If We Were." (I suspect that something is being lost in translation.) In the English version her singing is breathier (or seems to be in this fairly shitty YouTube dupe); and one thing the breathy English version does is to make me notice how similar the tune is to Paris Hilton's "Not Leaving Without You." Both were co-written (and, I'm assuming, co-produced) by Greg Wells (the "Ni Freud Ni Tu Mamá" credits are Belinda, Greg Wells, Shelly Peiken; the "Not Leaving Without You" credits are Paris Hilton, Greg Wells, Kara DioGuardi). In English, Belinda is offering to buy the object of her love a new wardrobe (I mean, his socks are just impossible) - also offers to do his laundry, to build him up, to drive him crazy, and to guarantee that he'll never again be so damn depressed. (One surmises that Mom and Sigmund were less successful in this regard, except maybe for the laundry bit.)

One thing that impresses me about the sound is that it's simultaneously a good four-on-the-floor dance stomp and a rock bawler; as the latter, it makes its rolling sea of guitars vastly more effective and voluptuously rocking than are the similar roiling guitar choruses of more officially "rock as such" songs by, for instance, Daughtry and My Chemical Romance (which aren't so bad themselves). And yet it also has the same hazy feel as the more-dance-than-hard-rock "Not Leaving Without You." So you have rock pressure and dance sway going together. (Which is good, 'cause it helps the rock stop being so damned depressed.)

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Saturday, 10 February 2007 22:40 (6 years ago) Permalink

I know that 'mediated' is a loaded word in academia terms--I mean it in a sort of caveman way, as in, with Paris, there is like this limit that's been hit, where the amount of porcessing/cutting/pasting/multitracking renders everything, as you might predict, sort of cartoonish, which, when mixed with her hypersexualized persona, which itself is sort of a parody of sexual presentation...okay, I'm hitting the same wall here as I did when said the result gives me the wiggins.

I'm not being confrontational, I'm wondering how so much can be read into this--trying to import engineering cpncepts into everyday use here--how such a 'degraded signal' can be parsed for depth-y meaning. How Paris herself can import much into the finished product considering how complicating the process is.

(None of this is really about doting on the idea of authroship although, just for my own organizational purposes, it's helpful to keep trackof producers in some cases to understand, say, asthetic continuity/developement.)

I shouldn't have said "the machinery of te studio", as that's an analog usage, as is the idea of Spears' being interesting in a 'robo-chick' way. Perhaps that's what's new and for me, really unsettling about Paris' vocals--that it's a new sort of detachment, a hyper-digitalized thing.

As we talk, I'm realizing the main thing here is how her vocals really do unsettle me. The sound, the out-of-phase-y high end, the inhumanly smoothed out vocal wash backgrounds.

I was listening to a remix of Roxette's "Dangerous" and there's AMS reverb on, like, everything. But there's a very live, 'warm' studio sound effect on the vocals (which you can, of course, recreate digitally.)

Whatever--the effect is that of two very live-sounding human voices almost sparring with the digital environs. With Paris, it's like she's been consumed.

Maybe that's what wiggining me.

― Grey, Ian (IanBrooklyn), Saturday, 10 February 2007 23:00 (6 years ago) Permalink

Interesting use of irony in last year's thread:

Questions that I just sent to Xhuxk and that I'm now sharing with the masses: (1) Is there ever going to be a Paris Hilton album? and (2) are Kara DioGuardi and Scott Storch still involved? This may surprise you, but I've been negligent on keeping track of this story.
-- Frank Kogan (edcasua...), April 5th, 2006. (Frank Kogan)

The phrase "this may surprise you" is a direct rip from Chris Cook (about his cartoon band Yo Soy): "The drummer was Squiddo Octopie, and this may surprise you but he was an octopus." The interesting thing about my irony, which I assumed most people would get, was that on April 5th 2006 (and I'd said something very similar to Chuck a year earlier when I was first hearing about the Platinum Weird and the Hilton LPs) I was basically indifferent to there being a possible Paris Hilton album, since I didn't expect it to be all that good, though Kara's and Scott's association with it gave it the chance of having (in Simon Reynolds' words) merit. So, not only was I being ironic, but it's ironic that I'd said what I'd said and had the attitude I had.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Saturday, 10 February 2007 23:04 (6 years ago) Permalink

Ian, I don't think "mediation" is your actual concern.

Isn't your main point that there's a limit to how much the electronic tinkering can create something that wasn't there in the first place (in this case, a fully realized, characterful voice)? Whereas I'd say that there's no principle or limit that says that the tinkering can't create it, but also I don't know how much tinkering there really was, and anyway I do hear a fully realized characterful voice, and how they achieved it isn't a big issue.

It's more of an issue for me how Ashlee was achieved, since I need to determine whether I should fall in love with Ashlee, with Kara, or with whom? Falling in love with a multiplicity may be too confusing to me.

(I realize I'm giving John short shrift here, esp. since he's one of the most talented producers/instrumentalists/melodists of the '00s.)

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Saturday, 10 February 2007 23:15 (6 years ago) Permalink

Ha, I was just listening to Roxette's hits collection a couple of days ago.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Saturday, 10 February 2007 23:18 (6 years ago) Permalink

As much as I love the question of Authenticity (ala Benjamin V. Adorno), I don't see that question being investigated in this thread vis-a-vis Paris. I question of directly experiencing the art comes the closet, but mainly because music wasn't meant to be listened to on a record player (or... vitaphone) in 1927. So there's been a shift in the meaning of Authenticity, and I haven't read much to reconcile that shift within pop music (I suspect that's either my fault for not finding it, or Academia's for not being interested in the real applications of the Tiller Girls today).

But Frank is OTM about irony. In fact, Paris's irony (or lack thereof) and her coldness (or warmth) has nothing to do with her means of production. THAT SAID. Benjamin would definitely encourage a reading of aura that requires knowledge of her means of production. And I think he'd call her inauthentic because of her means of production - though I'd need to dig out my copy of Illuminations to prove that. And I'm on the road, so that isn't going to happen tonight.

Here's an interesting question: Following Paris Hilton until last year, the most important aspect of her name was Hilton. At least, that was the consensus - because she hadn't created anything that would distinguish her first name from her last (though she distinguished herself in other ways - but artistically, I don't think anyone thought about her as something other than a Hilton). But following the release of the album, with it's one word title, we now refer to her as merely Paris. Did she in fact transform in the terms of her art? If we talked about her cursing out Lohan, would we return to Hilton? Etc.

― Mordechai Shinefield (Mordy), Saturday, 10 February 2007 23:38 (6 years ago) Permalink

Back when we were talking about post-cheerleader or whatever, I forgot to mention this Myspacer, Madison (found her a few months ago), who isn't really that similar except she has the hand-claps down. The song is "Mad Scientist," first one streamed.

― nameom (nameom), Sunday, 11 February 2007 01:22 (6 years ago) Permalink

Great Japanese girl-pop with slight pop/pomp-emo leanings from a group called Tommy Heavenly6, championed by pop & Eurovision blogger Goggle at The Goggles Do Nothing.

Newest single Heavy Starry Chain (there IS an apple in her hands!), harder rock + Teletubbie-lookin' baby dolls in "I'm Gonna Scream," Elfman Halloween theatrics in "Lollipop Candy Bad Girl." Good Matrix-balladish Xmas track "I Love Xmas." They remind me a little of Betty Curse.

― nameom (nameom), Sunday, 11 February 2007 01:36 (6 years ago) Permalink

(Tommy heavenly6 is Tomoko Kawase, who prior to the current name used to be be called Tommy february6, her birthday, which makes 2/6 a pop holiday over at Goggles.)

― nameom (nameom), Sunday, 11 February 2007 01:43 (6 years ago) Permalink

REVENGE DIETS!

Didn't read the piece, but Us Weekly's cover (and cover story) showed photos of various celebrities who'd recently gone through breakups and dropped a size or two in their dress sizes as a consequence and - said the subhead - were looking far sexier for it.

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Sunday, 11 February 2007 02:13 (6 years ago) Permalink

As much as I love the question of Authenticity (ala Benjamin V. Adorno), I don't see that question being investigated in this thread vis-a-vis Paris.

Disagree. We haven't gone into it deeply, but the rock star issue is where it genuinely comes up. E.g., this from Nia:

I think Paris and, to a lesser extent, Lindsay are iconic for sure--but I don't think that alone qualifies them as rock stars. The thing about rock icons, Mick Jagger or Debbie Harry or whoever, is that they either present an image of not wanting to present an image ("They're genuine!"), or if they do want to present an image, it's as negative an image as possible.

These days, to the extent that "authenticity" is an issue in popular culture and isn't just a buzz word floating in the breeze, it's about class relations and Relationship To Authority, with the premise being that Authority is irremediably illegitimate. Any other issue brought up in relation to "authenticity" is a stand-in for this one. (Not that what is meant by "Authority" and what is meant by "class relations" are at all clear. The advantage of discussing stand-in issues is that one doesn't get clear about one's actual issues.)

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Sunday, 11 February 2007 02:29 (6 years ago) Permalink

Um, that last post is cryptic. I'll blog on my livejournal one of these days rather than elaborate right here and now. (Of course, my book goes on and on about it, but I actually have even more to say.)

― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Sunday, 11 February 2007 02:33 (6 years ago) Permalink

Frank, I definitely think 'authenticity' has been addressed. But not the kind of authenticity that the Frankfurt School was dealing with.

― Mordechai Shinefield (Mordy), Sunday, 11 February 2007 02:49 (6 years ago) Permalink

Frank, on one hand, if you're not watching the Ashlee Simpson Show, you're not missing much. (John Shanks appears in three episodes; Kara appears in one; the rest is mostly about hair dye and shopping.) On the other hand, it's the root of both my uneasiness about and affection for Ashlee, so I can't say you shouldn't watch it.

There is a mystery of Kara. For me to say "Oh, she wants someone else to work through" seems too... I don't know... clichéd?

Wants? Needs? Is afraid to be without? Her words: "I've loved [being in] the shadows. The shadows are great because you can hide there and do what you do, and if you're failing, no one knows." I can't tell whether she loves her place in pop ("I want to write the quintessential pop song...one of those moments in pop time that defines an era.") or loathes it ("Sometimes, when I enter a room [to write] with a girl who has had no pain, no sorrow, and no experience, I almost want to put a gun to my head."). Not that the things she says are mutually exclusive, really, but they have a way of undercutting themselves. (Now is this a discussion for this thread, or a tangent for elsewhere?)

By the way, I think she's learning how to live in the herd in "Avalanche."

― Nia (girlboymusic), Sunday, 11 February 2007 07:52 (6 years ago) Permalink

Right, and I was actually here to post this:

Hilary Duff news, album is due in April, all songs co-written with Kara DioGuardi and dancey as previously reported.

Co-written with DioGuardi and whom else?

Looks like "Dignity," "Never Stop," and "Between You and Me" are Hilary, Kara, Richard Vission, and Chico Bennett; "Play with Fire" is Hilary, Kara, will.i.am, and James Everette Lawrence (is this Rhett Lawrence?); "Danger" is Hilary, Kara, Mateo Carmago, Julius Diaz, and Vada Nobles; and "Dreamer" is Hilary, Kara, and Frederick Nassar.

― Nia (girlboymusic), Sunday, 11 February 2007 07:54 (6 years ago) Permalink

My impression was that the writing process -- sitting down in a room to write with a girl (who has pain, sorrow, and experience, because who doesn't have any of these things?) -- was all Hilary and Kara.

― nameom (nameom), Sunday, 11 February 2007 16:26 (6 years ago) Permalink

Um, the second sentence appears to be lost in the ether. I wrote something about how it seemed like the other names are more responsible for production (I had no idea will.i.am had anything to do with "Play with Fire"!)...but I'll take your word for it.

― nameom (nameom), Sunday, 11 February 2007 16:59 (6 years ago) Permalink

Nia, for all I know Kara has a solid personality and therefore has no particular need to establish a personality in her songwriting; the thing is, the Platinum Weird songs (as opposed to, say, Kylie Minogue's "Spinnin' Around" or Ashley Tisdale's "Be Good To Me," both of which Kara had a hand in) need the sense of a narrator's life unfolding, or if they don't *need* this, at least they could benefit greatly from it. "Then you'll see my greatest gift/Is fallin' down and takin' it" - which you're right is a really interesting line - alludes to stories that the album never figures out how to tell. Again, Ashlee's words are often just as spare and abstract but are somehow the *right* spare abstractions. But then, so much about Ashlee is about self-discovery and "can I do this and still be accepted?" and if it's Kara who's writing all of Ashlee's words for her (which I very much doubt) I can see how those words make more sense put in the mouth of someone in her teens and early twenties but not someone in her mid thirties [which still doesn't explain the greatness of the "Say Goodbye" lyrics, which are what Carole King *wanted* the words of "It's Too Late" to have been]. But then, there's something really weird and disturbing in Kara's letting Dave Stewart promote Platinum Weird by way of the whole boring Erin Grace hoax, rather than taking center stage herself.

― Frank Kogan, Wednesday, 21 February 2007 21:34 (6 years ago) Permalink

That was from an email; here's my changing my mind about "Spinnin' Around":

But actually "Spinnin' Around" is (among other things) about someone's life unfolding, in that the dancer is spinning around on the dance floor but this is also a metaphor about turning her life around (co-writer Paula Abdul had just been through a divorce) and in addition the metaphor is about being spun around by life, both giddy and unmoored. Excellent lyrics, and "Mistakes that I made givin' me the strength/To really believe" sounds very much like Kara, though for all I know they're from Paula or one of the other two writers.

― Frank Kogan, Wednesday, 21 February 2007 21:37 (6 years ago) Permalink

And here's a real good discussion about dominance/submission tropes in "La La," though I'm kinda getting my ass whipped (so to speak).

― Frank Kogan, Wednesday, 21 February 2007 21:42 (6 years ago) Permalink

Frank, I definitely think 'authenticity' has been addressed. But not the kind of authenticity that the Frankfurt School was dealing with.

So you're saying we haven't addressed authentic authenticity?

― Frank Kogan, Wednesday, 21 February 2007 22:19 (6 years ago) Permalink

OK, this didn't work first time, hopefully figured this out...

Julianne Shepherd, whose name I spelled correctly this time, just introduced me to [Removed Illegal Link] and her Lip Gloss. Amazing.

Are the girls silent because their lip gloss is chic, or because it's <i>cheap</i>? (Hence, jealousy, such an evil thing?) Also dig the part where she gets called out of class in the middle of eighth period and...I won't ruin the surprise. (This part is particularly excellent because you know that's the last class of the day!)

― dabug, Wednesday, 21 February 2007 22:51 (6 years ago) Permalink

woops, that should be cheap. That will probably happen a lot. Also, apparently myspace is an illegal link. How bout Lil Mama here: --http://www.myspace.com/lilmamaonline--

― dabug, Wednesday, 21 February 2007 22:53 (6 years ago) Permalink

(yeah, it's definitely cheap, because Lil Mama can UPGRADE U to some better lip gloss.)

― dabug, Wednesday, 21 February 2007 22:56 (6 years ago) Permalink

Frank, we needed you on the ILX sandbox. You could have added to the Beyonce -jane dark thread, and the "Cars that Go Boom' and "Square Biz" thread....

― curmudgeon, Wednesday, 21 February 2007 23:02 (6 years ago) Permalink

Dave, you're probably right. I have no idea who did what; I just pulled those credits off BMI in response to Frank's question upthread, about who would be contributing the music to Duff/DioGuardi.

Frank, I'll get back to you as soon as I finish I Am Me.

― Nia, Wednesday, 21 February 2007 23:25 (6 years ago) Permalink

Random dump of downtime links (never used this before so let's hope it works):

Dave Moore's latest article on Stylus is his finest one yet, as far as I'm concerned. I think there's something to the fact that many (most?) poptimists and presumably teen-poptimists are formerly indie. I am. In my case, I wasn't even a fan of teenpop when I was actually the target audience (excepting "Genie in a Bottle" and "I Want It That Way" and I was at the upper edge of the target demo at that time).

Kelly Clarkson's latest song is [Removed Illegal Link]. I like it a lot, though "Anymore" and "Maybe" are better. This one seems a bit more radio friendly though. Mixed fan reaction on those forums.

Anybody who hasn't been should check out the Stylus Singles Jukebox. At the least, me, Dave (in theory at least), and Frank contribute, maybe some other teenpoppers as well.

― Greg Fanoe, Wednesday, 21 February 2007 23:37 (6 years ago) Permalink

One of the best singer/actress combination in teen pop today (that is, somebody who is a good actress AND is a good singer AND makes good music in combination) is Sara Paxton (um, we talked about this last year, the only 3 who contend are Lohan, Aly, and Hilary, and I'd possibly rank Sara by these criteria ahead of any of those 3 for various reasons). At least in my opinion. See her work on Darcy's Wild Life for her acting, which is just as charming and funny as any other actress on TV that I can think of.

Her best song is [Removed Illegal Link] which I have been listening to non-stop for the last week or two.

― Greg Fanoe, Thursday, 22 February 2007 00:07 (6 years ago) Permalink

Whoa, not allowed to link to YouTube now or what? What are the new linking policies?

― Greg Fanoe, Thursday, 22 February 2007 00:08 (6 years ago) Permalink

Youtube doesn't seem to be allowed. Try http://p101.ezboard.com/Kelly-Clarkson/fkellyclarksonexpressfrm7 (Kelly at Daytona) and (I'm assuming you meant, anyway) "Take a Walk" here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7JnhbVS6iA

― dabug, Thursday, 22 February 2007 00:15 (6 years ago) Permalink

Yeah, I meant "Take a Walk", of course, though I like "Connected" too. (As of right now those are the only two Sara Paxton songs I've heard). Thanks for subbing in those links.

― Greg Fanoe, Thursday, 22 February 2007 00:58 (6 years ago) Permalink

Anyone else think Jordan Sparks is the cutest thing ever?

― Mordechai Shinefield, Thursday, 22 February 2007 07:22 (6 years ago) Permalink

"Then you'll see my greatest gift/Is fallin' down and takin' it" - which you're right is a really interesting line - alludes to stories that the album never figures out how to tell.

I disagree times ten. The album tells that story so many ways.

She wants things: to be somebody to love, to be somebody. To take a chance. To feel the sun. Happiness. Really vague things, intangible things, there's just this unfocused feeling of want. Yet she doesn't grant herself the power to get those things: her greatest gift is falling down and taking it, she gets beaten but she comes back for more, she can't save you both. She's waiting for you, and she knows it's wrong, but it's all she can do. Whatever. Sometimes revolution sits and waits. And she contradicts herself: she said goodbye, but she never meant goodbye. She's going to have happiness--but could you pull her back from the edge, just to make sure she survives long enough to find it? She can finally make this flight--but could you run and hide with her? She wants you to start again, she wants you to take a chance with her--but could you show her how, please? (And not just show her how: show her how to try, even.) You've proved that there is more to life, but still, she's unsure, she's praying you're right. She's sitting around, waiting for reprieve from someone whose promised land she doesn't even believe in. (Sonically, too, she contradicts herself: "Crying at the Disco" wants you to dance, everything is so percussive and everybody's chanting, while she's breaking down and screaming that nobody knows her name. You know, it's cool, don't be concerned that she totally just broke down on the dance floor--go ahead and be a part of that laughing, dancing crowd. She'll be fine.) And how many times does she beg you not to leave her alone? And not just alone, but alone, like, on the planet. She is that alone. Nobody sees when she's crying at the disco, nobody sees when she's way out of tune.

More than half the album is about wanting something and then handicapping herself till she can't even move--that way, she can't try, she can't fail. (Because she will fail. "Will You Be Around" isn't a what-if song: even if she wakes up and the world is warmer, the rain will come down, the pain will come out. There's only one question in that song: will you want her when she's not perfect?) She's weird and disturbing all over the place.

The thing about Platinum Weird is that it takes the whole album to tell the story, whereas you can listen to one song on Autobiography and get it right away. Dave and Kara are way less organized; every line counts on Autobiography, and every song is telling pretty much the same story. (Which is power dynamics, the push/pull of love, not self-discovery and acceptance. Platinum Weird is the one asking, "Can I do this?")

― Nia, Thursday, 22 February 2007 07:50 (6 years ago) Permalink

Anyone else think Jordan Sparks is the cutest thing ever?

Jordin Sparks and Leslie Hunt are my two favorites on AI so far. Jordin IS the cutest thing ever. Agree with the general consensus that the girls are way better than the boys.

― Greg Fanoe, Thursday, 22 February 2007 13:25 (6 years ago) Permalink

Spring Awakening = Rent II? Obviously there are differences, but most of those differences argue for SA being even more embraced by the Teen culture (ie: It's about teens, not young 20-somethings), and from what I've heard, it fits the Panic! At the Disco/My Chemical Romance genre perfectly. I really want to hear the OST, but I haven't been able to - uh - find it yet. So I've had to content myself with the 30 second clips on amazon.com. Anyone else get to listen to this yet?

(IT combines two of my favorite topics: late 1800s-early 1900s [circa... 1930, and mostly critical Frankfurt] Germany and teenage angst [ie: emo!])

― Mordechai Shinefield, Thursday, 22 February 2007 20:17 (6 years ago) Permalink

Random American Idol links, now that the show is increasing its teenpop cred more and more each day:

Mark Twang (who has the worst band name I've heard in a long, long time) is the band of AI contestant (my favorite) Leslie Hunt. She's got a really nice, restrained, and smoky voice. The songs sound like pretty standard jazz inflected indie rock to me (or, according to the website "a blend of Acoustic Ethno-Blues and Folk-Funk music, and their vibe as lively and soulful." I listened to "U Don't Know" and "4 Blond Bitches". I liked "U Don't Know". "4 Blond Bitches" has a reference to "American Pie" and is just generally not a very good song. There's also a cover of "Crazy" (the Patsy Cline song).

Sarah Burgess was eliminated during the Hollywood rounds (i.e. prior to fan voting). She had one of the most popular auditions too (well, at least I liked it). She's going for a music career now? Seems like a stretch. She was eliminated early enough that she can try out again in subsequent seasons. Anyways, she links for download a cover of Xtina's "Walk Away", which I've never heard the original of. She's got an OK but generic voice and it's generally boring.

Some of my favorite performances:

These are depressingly consensus picks, but if you've never seen the show, you owe it to yourself to watch these performances, at least in my opinion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PFjvvNBTFI : Kelly Clarkson - "Stuff Like That There". Big band stuff, which often turns me off, but man she is an absolute master performer. This always ranks high on lists of greatest AI performances ever, it's amazing how she works the crowd/audience here.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=QhKTYgDrAws : Carrie Underwood - "Alone". Also always makes lists of best performances ever, and easily Carrie's best performance of the year. The 80s rocker chick hair still cracks me up 2 years later.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXyCzaPayig Jon Peter Lewis often makes list of worst American Idol contestants to go far, but I agree with Mike Saunders on this guy. He was consistenly able to take songs I hate and do amazing performances of them. Case in point is this version of "A Little Less Conversation". Dude's a natural entertainer and his phrasing is first rate.

OK that's all for tonight.

― Greg Fanoe, Friday, 23 February 2007 02:43 (6 years ago) Permalink

OK, I'm done with talking about American Idol for a while. Presumably there's some American Idol thread where I can resume conversation later. Unrelated is the full Jordan Pruitt album. I already knew 7 of the 12 tracks ("Outside Looking In", "Teenager", "We Are Family", "Jump to the Rhythm", "Over It", "Waiting For You", and "Miss Popularity").

"No Ordinary Girl" - title track. Extremely catchy. This is an upbeat song, for some reason I expected it to be a ballad. It's got horns in it! Lyrics saying "I ain't no ordinary girl" in the sense that she's not ready to rush into sex. Not what I was expecting. Very good though.

"My Reality" - Lyrics about all the many complicated choices and concerns of a teenager ("Should I drink, should I smoke/Should I lie so I can go/To the party down the road"). But she makes her own reality! Kinda generic lyrics and kind of a bland song. But not a bad song.

"Who Likes Who" is the most straightahead R&B song on the album. Lyrics about complicated teen relationships and gossip. I really don't like this song. It's not really right for her and doesn't really fit on the album. Melody in the chorus falls a bit flat.

"Later" - Whoa, is that a slightly reggae-ish beat I detect? Really odd instrumental backdrop on this one, with pizzicato guitar line and really bouncy backing. Yet another song about how she's not in it for the sex. If the guy's not in it for a deep relationship, she'll see him later. I like it a lot.

"When I Pretend" - Slow, piano based ballad. She's broken up with her boyfriend and is still really sad about it. But she can at least pretend that they are still together and happy. Emotionally affecting. The natural follow up to "Outside Looking In". Beautiful. Yet another favorite.

I'm liking this album, the hit rate is only around 50-60%, and none of the songs are bowl-you-over great, but it's got a few really good ones and stands about with Ashley Tisdale for best teenpop album of the year so far.

― Greg Fanoe, Friday, 23 February 2007 03:02 (6 years ago) Permalink

I got the Spring Awakening album. I'll post about it early next week. (For the record: I LOVE IT!)

Greg, I'd love to hear more chat about AI, and I can't imagine there'll be a better thread to discuss it. So far, I admit, I've been judging more on personality than singing (mostly because there hasn't been much of the latter before this week). One really underrated performance this week? Gina (?) doing "All By Myself." I thought it had tons of personality - and I liked it more than the original. It seemed more punk (whatever that means!).

― Mordechai Shinefield, Friday, 23 February 2007 07:29 (6 years ago) Permalink

OK, since you sucked me in

Girls Performance, Top to Bottom

1. Melinda Doolittle - "Since You've Been Gone"
2. Jordin Sparks - "Give Me One Reason"
3. Leslie Hunt - "Natural Woman"
4. Stephanie Edwards - "How Come You Don't Call Me?"
5. Gina Glocksen - "All By Myself"
6. Lakisha Jones - "And I'm Telling You I'm Not Going"
7. Haley Scarnato - "It's All Coming Back to Me Now"
8. Sabrina Sloan - "I've Never Loved a Man the Way I Loved You"
9. Amy Krebs - "I Can't Make You Love Me"
10. Nicole Tranquilo - Whatever
11. Alaina Alexander - "Brass In Pocket"
12. Antonella Barba - "I Don't Wanna Miss a Thing"

For the guys, I don't care as much. Blake was the best by far. Chris Sligh has a great personality and seems to be a good singer, but the song he picked hardly showed off his vocal talents. I like AJ's voice.

― Greg Fanoe, Friday, 23 February 2007 14:06 (6 years ago) Permalink

I received Jordan P's album in the mail yesterday. There's not a single track on it about which I can't find something positive to say. I would say the hit rate is nearer 90% than 50-60%.

In fact, I think Greg and I are getting very different things out of Ms Pruitt's music. In particular, I love "Who Likes Who". The song's about schoolyard gossip - interestingly, it's not portrayed as something destructive at all, rather as something like a drug (or at least a sugar rush) - Jordan and her friends needing a constant stream of fresh rumours to get them through the school day. (But these rumours not something to be taken too seriously. It doesn't even matter if they're true.) I think the song is of a kind with "Outside Looking In" and "Miss Popularity" in terms of subject matter, so in that sense it suits her (and the LP) just fine. It's also funny!

I agree about the beauty of "When I Pretend" though. Also, the chorus and coda of this song, like the verses in "Over It", have really, really bizarre (and complex) chord sequences - ones you'd more normally find in a Steely Dan track than a teenpop ballad. I should probably have a gi at trying to work out the progressions.

― Jeff W, Friday, 23 February 2007 14:16 (6 years ago) Permalink

I received Jordan P's album in the mail yesterday. There's not a single track on it about which I can't find something positive to say. I would say the hit rate is nearer 90% than 50-60%.

Well, I define "hit rate" as songs that are like a 7/10-ish or higher, so maybe it's just a question of differing definitions. In any event, even when the music isn't the greatest, her performance and the lyrics are generally very, very strong throughout the entire album.

― Greg Fanoe, Friday, 23 February 2007 14:29 (6 years ago) Permalink

Listening to Robyn's "Blow My Mind" from 2002: Robyn is maybe the most assertively small-voiced, sweet-voiced, sharp-tongued singer in history. (E.g., going, "Good girls are pretty, like, all the time. I'm just pretty some of the time!" in "Who's That Girl?") What's kind of shocking in "Blow My Mind" is how submissive she says she's being: "Hey babe, ravage me, love me 'til it hurts." I hear the extremity of this submissiveness as being something like its opposite: Assertively, demandingly submissive. But would I hear it like this if I didn't know this was Robyn, hadn't heard stuff like [link "Konichiwa Bitches"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XC_GnG1wO38[/l]? "Blow My Mind" sounds sweet and gorgeous, and there's an extremity in this too: She starts off surrounded by bubbles, it sounds like, then immerses herself in sugar, while guys whisper and a nearby tree frog says "blow my mind" into a vocodor. I think she's pulling off a great have-her-cake-and-eat-it-too maneuver, doing this very femme-y feminine sexualized singing which she aims at us from what I imagine is a sharp, stinging left-wing of dancepop. But then, I'm not Swedish, so I don't really know if my social reading is close to right.

― Frank Kogan, Friday, 23 February 2007 17:44 (6 years ago) Permalink

Oops. [Removed Illegal Link]

― Frank Kogan, Friday, 23 February 2007 17:47 (6 years ago) Permalink

OK, I give up. Don't know what I'm doing wrong:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XC_GnG1wO38

― Frank Kogan, Friday, 23 February 2007 17:53 (6 years ago) Permalink

Steve, they needed me more in Poptimists. (And truly, I have bad psychological blocks against doing the things I need to in order to write for money, so ilX being down is something of a reprieve.)

Need to run now before reading Dave's column or addressing the "indie" question; but no, I've never been "indie" (even though I've cavalierly called myself "the indie boy who hated indie"). Xgau's "semipopular" is a much more useful concept than "indie" is, actually, though not all indie is semipopular. There's an old Poptimists thread where I talk about this (which, livejournal being livejournal, I'm sure I'll never be able to find), but the crucial semipopular group was the Stooges, and what made them semipopular rather than indie, besides using the popular lexicon and being on a major, is that they reached out to the unknown audience. That's why ilX is semipopular while Pitchfork is only indie, even though Pitchfork is far more popular. (Don't know Pitchfork well, so maybe I'm way wrong, but I don't think so.)

― Frank Kogan, Friday, 23 February 2007 18:12 (6 years ago) Permalink

Indie music fans, when at their best, are fans of the music. And that's what poptimists are too-- it's the actual music that interests them, not the packaging. So the crossover between the groups stems simply from liking music. I grew up on Sonic Youth, The Breeders and Pixies. But I also grew up on Madonna, Janet Jackson and Daft Punk. Then when I got in my 20s, out of nowhere, I got into hair metal and arena rock. I don't see any inconsistency; it's all excellent music.

The problem is the indie people who are fans of indie music for superficial reasons, or for reasons pertaining solely to the personality traits of the performer. These are the indie music fans who are reluctant to embrace a band because they're "corporate," or because the lead singer is a jerk. This is a hypocrisy I can't stand. After all, being indie is supposed to be a rejection of superficiality, right?

When reading reviews from poptimists, the music is always the thing. I've very rarely heard a serious discussion about pop music devolve into statements like "I'm sorry, I just can't get past how much i hate the singer as a person," but when discussing rock music, I hear it all the time.

― Matt Armstrong, Friday, 23 February 2007 19:35 (6 years ago) Permalink

I've very rarely heard a serious discussion about pop music devolve into statements like "I'm sorry, I just can't get past how much i hate the singer as a person,"

Heh, it's obvious you've never read poptimist discussions about Paris then.

― Greg Fanoe, Friday, 23 February 2007 19:53 (6 years ago) Permalink

paris was kind of the exception thoughm which was why i was kind of shocked that even poptimists were so blinded to paris's persona that they had that kneejerk hate.

― lex pretend, Friday, 23 February 2007 19:59 (6 years ago) Permalink

Avril Lavigne - "Girlfriend" video: http://youtube.com/watch?v=e1Lg7OOgMzI

― Nia, Saturday, 24 February 2007 07:22 (6 years ago) Permalink

I was hoping this was from the video.

― dabug, Sunday, 25 February 2007 02:53 (6 years ago) Permalink

For anyone who needed a more illustrative guide to Lil' Mama's "Lip Gloss": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYjVnb3xdtY

― dabug, Sunday, 25 February 2007 02:59 (6 years ago) Permalink

For those, like me, having problems with links and 'no HTML' and such on nu-ILX, this from the FAQ may be worth noting:

What's this about "illegal link removed" when I try to post a link? There are a couple of bugs in that code right now. For the next few days, avoid using these punctuation marks in your links: < > ' " ` ! { } [ ]

-- Stet, Feb 23 2007.

― Jeff W, Sunday, 25 February 2007 17:34 (6 years ago) Permalink

JeffW

OK, after spending the entire weekend listening to the Jordan Pruitt album, I do concede that I've been underrating it. I think my problem is that after hearing "Outside Looking In" I wanted an entire album of that, and when I only got two comparable songs ("Waiting for You" and "When I Pretend") I was a bit disappointed. Another problem is that the second single "Teenager" seems to be a pretty bad choice to me. I, however, still don't like "Who Likes Who" (does have funny lyrics but music is still blah), but that and "My Reality" and "Over It" are the only three not-as-good songs on the album, which gives it a 75% hit rate. And, to be fair, all 3 of those are pretty good songs, so if you define "hit rate" by Poptimists style "any good at all", it'd have a 100% hit rate. I guess at least part of the reason that we disagree on "Who Likes Who" and "Over It" is that I have no ear for music theory at all. Once again, I am nearly tone deaf, and can't always hear when something is a standard chord progression or a truly original one. Neither sound like anything particularly original to me, but I'll take your word for it.

The album still lacks a truly excellent standout track ("Outside Looking In" and "No Ordinary Girl" and "Waiting for You" are my favorites, but none are higher than like 8/10) ("Outside Looking In" was my #34 single of the year in 2006). But Jordan is a truly excellent singer, and not just that she has a beautiful voice (which she does), but also that she gives genuinely great performances. She knows how to sell the drama of the lyrics. So the question is how to rate an album that consists almost entirely of 7/10 and 8/10 tracks, as opposed to an album that has more great hits, but more mediocre track as well (like Lillix, for example, or Carrie Underwood or Nelly Furtado). I tend to be more charitable towards the consistently good albums, so the album rates an 8/10 and may well contend for my year end top 10, if it ends up being a fairly weak year. It's my favorite album of 2007 so far, in any event.

― Greg Fanoe, Sunday, 25 February 2007 23:52 (6 years ago) Permalink

Heh, I used the word truly about 3 times too many in that last post. Thesaurus please.

― Greg Fanoe, Sunday, 25 February 2007 23:56 (6 years ago) Permalink

From country thread, below. (But my opinions are still evolving, which is to say "Girlfriend" may have passed up "Candyman" on my list by now. By the way, has anybody pointed out that Avril's cadences are frequently swiped straight out from the Red Hot Chili Peppers in that song? From "Give It Away," I think. Which is not one hundredth as good as "Girlfriend" is.)

Little Rachel ...is considerably more engaging and less offensive than, um, Cherry Poppin Daddies ... Meanwhile, on a related topic, "Candyman" by Christina Aguilera...

...turns out to be the song that mentions cherries poppin'. Decided I like it about equally with "Girlfriend" by Avril Lavigne, and more than "Bird Flu" by M.I.A. But it's more Bette Midler doing "Boogie Woogie Bugle Boy" than Dr. Buzzard doing "Cherchez La Femme," I think. Which is to say: Not all that far from Little Rachel after all. Best thing about Christina's song is the "sippin on a bottle of vodka double wine" chant done by the soldiers in the video at the beginning and in the middle; they've got more punch than she does (which is not to suggest she's punchless.) Avril's song meanwhile is hey hey you you get off of my cloud get into my car Mickey you're so fine you blow my mind hey Mickey, but not nearly as good as that implies, and not as good as most of the songs on Skye Sweetnam's debut album, either. (Not that this has anything to do with country, I guess.) M.I.A.'s song is...a confusing mess. I dunno, maybe I need to hear it more. As of now, I'd say it doesn't rank with her best stuff. I guess I'd prefer if had more of a tune to it.

xhuxk on Sunday, 25 February 2007 02:04 (Yesterday)
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(Though to the Christina song's credit, its sound does seem to open up beyond retro kitsch as the song progresses. So yeah, it's better than Avril's, I guess. Which is probably the most reigned in of the three. M.I.A.'s song hits me as art grandstanding, basically. Albeit art grandstanding bombarding you with beats, which counts for a lot, obviously. I do like it, just don't love it. Though I can imagine I might if it catches me by surprise in some public setting.) (And yeah, this all belongs on the teenpop thread. But I lost that thread's plot ages ago, and every time I try to catch up, it loses me again.)

xhuxk on Sunday, 25 February 2007 02:24 (Yesterday)

― xhuxk, Monday, 26 February 2007 01:51 (6 years ago) Permalink

more:

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Can't contribute to the country musings herein, and should probably just stay off this altogether (and WILL stay out of it after this, promise), but I feel like saying something about the Aguilera/M.I.A./Avril records Chuck discusses above (in part because I'm trying to properly "review" them and am struggling). "Candyman" is the sort of song I feel I should hate on principal, but in fact, I do like it. It's the first thing I've even been able to listen to by her since "Genie in a Bottle," probably because it does remind me so much of Bette's version of "Boogie Woogie Bugle Boy" (with funnier words), and I guess because, similarly, it sounds like a glam-by-assocation kind of song (though I guess you'd have to say glam-twice-removed-by-association) in that Midler made the Andrews Sisters seem like glam icons (Roxy Music's backup singers even dressed like them). It was like boogie woogie (as a sub-genre, I mean) very briefly became one of glam rock's many sideshow attractions, similar to how Cabaret made the Weimar Republic seem totally glam. (This would probably be a good place also to say something about Mika's "Grace Kelly" and the Killers's "Read My Mind," which fall into yet other wings of glitter rock--not to mention Fergie's wonderful "Glamorous"--but I digress). Like Chuck, I thought the M.I.A. was a complete mess at first, didn't hear any melody, etc., but now it's totally working for me. Chuck says, "Though I can imagine I might if it catches me by surprise in some public setting." This happened for me, sort of--the video actually provided that context in a way (not quite the same as hearing it outdoors amongst real people, granted), and it warmed me up to the song a lot. Not only is there almost no melody, there's also no chorus--it's a pretty outrageous song, all beats and artillery and bird sqwawks. I'm coming around to the Avril song, too, but don't have much to say about it--I think i just really like the delays on her voice in the chorus, and I imagine it'll be a pretty huge wedding anthem this year, and for me that's a very good thing.

sw00ds on Sunday, 25 February 2007 06:09 (Yesterday)
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It's the first thing I've even been able to listen to by her since "Genie in a Bottle,"

Me too! I liked "Ain't No Other Man" or whatever it was called last year "in theory" (i.e., the beats) (i.e., I totally understood why other people liked it), but really could've taken or leaven it myself. Didn't get "Beautiful" at all.

Avril's bleacher beats sound more glam to me than Christina's bugles though.

xhuxk on Sunday, 25 February 2007 09:35 (Yesterday)

― xhuxk, Monday, 26 February 2007 01:51 (6 years ago) Permalink

Rolling RD 2-27-07: Hilary's on the charts sans sis with "With Love," Frank points out that it's getting weak airplay on KDIS but it'll probably start climbing a la "Too Little Too Late" now that it's in the Top 30. Drew Sealy (sic) off the voting charts. In the incubator is Myxx, whom I haven't listened to yet. Landslide for Jonas Bros. new song, "Kids in the Future" (nee "Kids in America": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWigR3eKgsI, haven't gotten a chance to compare the lyrics yet but they definitely didn't ADD any three-breasted women), but all is not as it seems: At one point DJ Aaron K. questioned a caller “So basically you just love the Jonas Brothers and you’re gonna pick it even if the song is bad?” She replied, “Duh!”

― dabug, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 01:35 (6 years ago) Permalink

I spoke more about it on my blog, but my 3 favorite songs on the Spring Awakening soundtrack:

Don't Do Sadness/Blue Wind: Emo start - into dialogue - into really pretty duet. Though the emo section is inverted, it turns into something that includes a woman's input - which puts it way ahead of most emo I've heard, and makes it much more interesting.

Totally Fucked: Group song, very full of youth in tone and sound, but the lyrical content is abrasive and shocking (a bunch of junior high kids singing Totally Fucked), but their delivered well enough that it's believable. Closest thing to Hair, actually; where the content (How screwed up they are) feels very full of youth.

Whispering: Whichever girl sings this song, it's beautiful. I believe it happens when she's dying, and the song slowly becomes a whisper itself until it disappears. Broadway comparison = Fontene's Song from Les Miz, maybe. But in terms of teenpop, it seems far more appropriate to a young teenager's stream-of-consciousness than the kind of jaded death song found in other pieces of musical theater.

There's also Left Behind - which is a really pretty duet.

― Mordechai Shinefield, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 02:09 (6 years ago) Permalink

Well, I can't find a better thread to post it in, contrary to previous, so I'll just keep going here

Guys American Idol only marginally better than last week's screw the judges. I feel like Metal Mike, I disagreed with the judges tonight more than ever. I like AJ a lot, nice tone to his voice, though slight boringness. Chris Sligh is OK but he's had bad song choices two weeks in a row to me and I'm not sure what to think of him. I have a possibly irrational hatred for Chris Richardson who did a Jason Mraz song. Sickened by the overpraise there. Same with Sundance, who did "Mustang Sally", a song I don't like to begin with, and did nothing in particular with it. Don't see how it was substantively different than Rudy's "Free Ride". What's with Sanjaya? He still has the worst stage presence/least charisma ever. I still like Blake, his Jamiroquai was probably my favorite performance of the night.

Brandon WAS pretty boring (though underrated I think), but I was very troubled by Simon and Randy's comments to him. Which were along the lines of, unless you have an overpowering voice with lots of runs and gymanstics and melisma the performance is automatically not good. I have no problem with the powerful voiced divas and their male counterparts but the show's consistent inability, 6 season in now, to recognize great singing of any other variety is the major weak point to me, and causes more subtle and restrained singers to be consistently underrated. Also underrated are singers without huge voices who are great interpreters/performers.

― Greg Fanoe, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 03:36 (6 years ago) Permalink

Would send home: Chris R., Sanjaya
Will go home: Nick Pedro (who I kinda like, but is still boring), Jared (cannon fodder)

― Greg Fanoe, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 03:37 (6 years ago) Permalink

I really like Blake. (He's the beat-boxer, right?) He's probably my top-pick for male contestants right now. He seems to have the most personality and talent. It'll be interesting to see the girls tomorrow. I know Simon is in love with Lakisha, but I noticed, Greg, you rated her fairly low. I really love the song she delivered last week, but I think I'm with you. My favorite female contestant right now is Jordan Sparks. So I'm rooting for Sparks and Blake.

― Mordechai Shinefield, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 03:38 (6 years ago) Permalink

And I didn't mean Left Behind two posts ago. I meant Guilty Ones, which is the duet I really like the most on the soundtrack. (If all goes well, I'm getting students tickets to see the show on Thursday. Wish me luck!)

― Mordechai Shinefield, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 03:38 (6 years ago) Permalink

Checking 'em out on YouTube, is hard to get interested in any of the current AI contestants you mention (made it up to Amy Krebs on Greg's list, with Amy being a total hairball on a song whose original I love). All the women could be Joss Stone, for all I care, but I can quite easily imagine my having had a similar reaction to Kelly and Carrie if I'd been watching back on their run-through, and of course they've turned out extraordinarily well - prob'ly would have liked Carrie more, as she wasn't doing the big diva va-va-va-voom thing. Not that I'm against the va-va-va-voom, just that, like, someone belting out "Respect" in a talent show is just someone belting out "Respect" in a talent show. Would have been genuinely impressed if Kelly'd whispered it, found a way to bring an encapsulated, closed-off song back to life. Found Lakisha's the one intriguing performance, in that her raging gusts didn't lose the sense of the song; a disco-house-techno producer might be able to put her hurricane winds to interesting use. My favorite was probably Jordin - don't think she altogether found her way into the slow burn of "Turn My Ass Around" or whatever it's called ("Give Me One Reason"), but that's a style that moves me. Leslie Hunt's smoky throat was a snooze for me both onstage and on MySpace; can't really remember the others from last night when I was YouTubing; "All By Myself" is a good song, so I liked that. Melinda's the one with the three-year-old, right? Was interested in how "overcoming lack of confidence" is used as a selling point. Don't remember the actual sound, though, except that it wasn't soft. I'd just echo Greg on the subject of the narrowness of the apparent criteria for success. I'd wonder if Paula Abdul could have done well as a contestant if there'd been an Idol in '88. Voice too small and squeaky!

Look forward to your further reports.

― Frank Kogan, Thursday, 1 March 2007 17:30 (6 years ago) Permalink

Just spent half an hour searching and wondering why I couldn't find a link for the alleged FAQ, then found it linked in the middle of a thread. I presume there are technical problems with putting the link up on the board right now; fwiw I far preferred the old layout and old features, but apparently a lot of what I liked helped make the board vulnerable and also used up hunks of CPUs so will never come back.

― Frank Kogan, Thursday, 1 March 2007 18:02 (6 years ago) Permalink

This thread is so intimidating.

― The Brainwasher, Thursday, 1 March 2007 18:09 (6 years ago) Permalink

Well, the thread's length is the thread's length, but I think it's understood that few people will have read every post, that most people won't know, say, who Matthew Gerrard is (man who's co-produced and co-written much of the more boring Disney teenpop these days), etc., and I don't see the usual nastiness that you get on other threads along the lines of "don't you know how to use Search?" and so on. Also, I think people on this thread are remarkably articulate about why they like and dislike things, but those can lead to complexities because most people (emphatically including me) don't always know the sources of their likes and dislikes, and so the reasons they/I give often raise more questions, provoke further thought. (I find that ilX goes dull when people don't give reasons for their likes and dislikes, or don't realize that their reasons need further reasons.)

― Frank Kogan, Thursday, 1 March 2007 18:59 (6 years ago) Permalink

Briefly on AI, girls night:

I feel really anti-consensus this season and it's starting to bug me. I liked Gina Glocksen ("Alone"), though it was not as good as Carrie Underwood. Lakisha ("Midnight Train to Georgia") was meh yet again. I REALLY liked Leslie's performance ("Feeling Good") tonight though, I think she's got a great touch to her voice and very nice interpretation/performance skills. I'm still not sure how much of my Leslie love is due to her actual performance and how much is due to finding her attractive and liking her personality and the "something different" factor . I also like Alaina ("Not Ready to Make Nice") a lot, except that she can't seem to give a good performance. But I like her phrasing and I like the tone to her voice. I wish she could stay on pitch. I hate Sabrina ("All the Man I Need"), I think she has no control over her vocal runs. Haley ("The Queen of the Night") just such an odd performance. Jordin Sparks ("Reflection") very disappointing. For the guys, I like AJ ("Feeling Good") a lot and I HATE Chris Richardson ("Geek in the Pink"). Sanjaya ("Steppin Out With My Baby") was one of the weirdest performances I've ever seen. A Tony Bennett classic, with a mid 80's Michael Jackson fashion sense, and a performance style that basically amounts to whispering. Blake ("Virtual Insanity") good, though a bit of a step down from "Somewhere Only We Know". I liked the beatboxing/scatting/whatever it was. Phil ("Missing You") has a really good and pretty AM radio voice, but is somewhat boring. And I have yet to hear any real originality from him. I'm not feeling this season and it really bugs me that they've stacked the females with all similar singers. Dream scenario for me would be maybe a couple belters, a more restrained, jazzy type singer, a country girl, a rock girl, etc. It now seems likely all 5 of the big belters will make the finals which is just gonna be so boring.

Other main problem with AI (not just confined ot this season): almost no singers attempt to give their own interprations of the songs. Even the really good singers this year, like Melinda ("My Funny Valentine") just do pretty much copies of the originals. Jon Peter Lewis from season 3 tried to change up interpretations of songs somewhat, which I always appreciated. But I'd love to see someone do a ballad as a rave up or vice versa. This was a really weak slate of girls' and guys' performances. I'm considering giving up entirely, but I'll give em another shot.

Dream World Top 12: Leslie, Melinda, Jordin, Gina, Stephanie, LaKisha; Blake, AJ, Phil, Chris S, Brandon, Nick (if not fixed to 6 guys/6 girls I'd swap in Alaina for Nick).
Predicted Top 12: For the guys, Sundance, Sanjaya, Blake, and Chris S. seem like locks. Phil and Chris R are near locks as well at this point.
For the girls, Melinda and LaKisha are the only two I'm certain about. Stephanie and Jordin seem like good bets. I'm gonna guess Gina and Antonella for the last two slots. I hope that Leslie sneaks in.

Girlies top to bottom:
1. Melinda Dolittle - "My Funny Valentine"
2. Leslie Hunt - "Feeling Good"
3. Gina Glocksen - "Alone"
----Good/Bad Line (more accurately interesting/boring line)----
4. LaKisha Jones - "Midnight Train to Georgia"
5. Alaina Alexander - "Not Ready to Make Nice"
6. Jordin Sparks - "Reflection"
7. Haley Scarnato - "The Queen of the Night"
8. Stephanie Edwards - "Dangerously In Love" (the more I think about this the more I think the great fireworks at the end don't overcome the bad actual vocals)
9. Sabrina Sloan - "All The Man I Need"
10. Antonella Barba - "Because You Loved Me"

― Greg Fanoe, Thursday, 1 March 2007 19:58 (6 years ago) Permalink

Heh, clearly I need to redefine "briefly". Brainwasher, if you jump in I think you'll find the thread a lot less intimidating than it seems on the surface.

― Greg Fanoe, Thursday, 1 March 2007 19:59 (6 years ago) Permalink

Sligh needs to take this whole thing home. Just because he's the only personality (outside Sparks and Blake) that I have any interest in whatsoever. And though he's done some unconventional song choices, he's never done a performance that's made me cringe (a company that includes Gina, Lakisha, and once again - Sparks + Blake). Does it seem like a lot of Aretha songs this year?

― Mordechai Shinefield, Thursday, 1 March 2007 23:20 (6 years ago) Permalink

AI: Gina is extremely likeable, but I don't think she has the ammunition to go all the way. Simon was right about her not hitting the note in week 1, and she had similar problems last night.

I really enjoy Sligh's voice, and he's my favorite at this point. Doolittle has potential, but I have a feeling that we're going to have week after week of her pleasant but limited style of lounge singing.

The Pruitt album is excellent. I'm gonna stick up for Who Likes Who; it's not one of the top 4 songs on the album, but it's very enjoyable, and lyrically I find it amusing. I also enjoy that the spoken word intro paints the singer as as much of a gossip as anyone she's singing about!

― Matt Armstrong, Thursday, 1 March 2007 23:37 (6 years ago) Permalink

AI: Curse of Nina Simone last night. I'm disappointed there are no Country singers this season-- first time since season one? Sing Dixie Chicks, lose votes of surge lovers. There was a promising country singer in the auditions (forget her name) who was highlighted but somehow cut in Hollywood. I'm also not seeing the Great White Hope who usually (excepting season 3, and if you wanna be technical season 2) knocks off the heavily favored African American singer in the last few weeks of the competition. Still too fuzzy on names, and won't bother to learn them until there's a final 12, but is Powder GI Joe really much of a threat? Or Chris Sligh (I do know one name) with the over rehearsed, Bob Jones University punchlines? I like Beatbox but he was totally outdone at his own game by Justin Timber-fake this week. He should sing the New Radicals.

― Joseph Kallinger, Friday, 2 March 2007 14:52 (6 years ago) Permalink

I keep meaning to link to the following article by Alan T in Freaky Trigger, which is pertinent to this thread:
http://freakytrigger.co.uk/ft/wedge/comics/2007/02/its-hot-and-tepid-celebrity-comic-strips/

(click on the images for larger, i.e. legible, versions of the comic strips featuring McFly, Lil Chris, etc.)

Oh, and Greg - I did read your last post directed at me. I think we largely agree about JP. (And I wouldn't worry about the music theory stuff. It's by no means a badge of quality in and of itself, it's more an extra hook for me to get into a song.)

― Jeff W, Friday, 2 March 2007 16:01 (6 years ago) Permalink

AI: For the first time since Jessica Sierra was eliminated in Season 4, I have no favorites to root for now (well I have mini-favorites like Blake and Gina), so it'll be kind of refreshing to be able to hear the show from a more objective standpoint. It does seem pretty much inevitable that a white girl will win. If Sligh or Blake prove to be more likeable and enduring than I've given em credit for, they might have a chance. But this is a diva season. And oh yeah, Pickler gave a good performance.

Non-AI: Anybody heard the Everlife album? I haven't liked any of their Radio Disney singles so probably won't bother to check it out unless I hear good things about it.
I noticed that Mika was added to Tommy2's upcoming releases chart. I never thought of him as teenpop but I guess it makes sense. From that chart, March looks like it's gonna be a pretty slow month . Things pick up in April with (scheduled) new releases by Hilary Duff and Avril and Corbin.

― Greg Fanoe, Friday, 2 March 2007 16:23 (6 years ago) Permalink

And by "It does seem pretty much inevitable a white girl will win" I do of course mean "It does seem pretty much inevitable a black girl will win". Whoops, that kind of changes things.

― Greg Fanoe, Friday, 2 March 2007 16:25 (6 years ago) Permalink

Just posted this on the country thread:

http://cdbaby.com/cd/hollybeth2

There is nothing audibly country about Holly Beth Vincent's new solo album, but she recorded five tracks of it with musicians in Nashville, and she's not metal, and she hasn't been a teen in years (though, okay, Holly and the Italians were sort of from the Go-Gos/Tony Basil era which might connect them to the current Avril Lavigne single but who cares since everybody always ignores what I write on the teenpop thread anyway), so I guess this is the best place to talk about it. What's standing in my way from liking it more, strangely, is Holly's voice, which seems to have become much smaller and more quiet and held-back over the last quarter-century. The singing doesn't especially bug me, but it never really seems to grab me either, and I wish it was more in the forefront. What keeps me listening anyway is the abundant variety of lively dance-pop backing: dancehall days wang-chunging ("Behind 4 Walls"), straight-up Paula Abdul ("Sparkle," where Holly's voice sort of does an squeaky little A'Me Lorain thing inasmuch as I remember what A'Me Lorain sang like), Hombres letting it all hang out ("Arlington"), Nirvana smelling like teen spirit ("I Hate You"), smooth jazz getting lite-funky ("King of Fat"), Roxette doing whatever Roxette did (other places). It's not bad. Maybe the goal is to appeal to Gwen Stefani or Goldfrapp fans or something? But I keep wishing it was hitting me more.

― xhuxk, Saturday, 3 March 2007 05:12 (6 years ago) Permalink

On the other hand, some of you small-voice fans might like it more than I do.

― xhuxk, Saturday, 3 March 2007 05:20 (6 years ago) Permalink

Hey, "Stewy" is still gr8!

Kelly Clarkson on her new album: My cd is finished!! We’re now starting to schedule all the promo stuff and photo shoots and I’m so pumped! I can’t wait for y’all to hear the album! The album is called “My December” and a few words to describe it : intimate, raw, personal, rock (although some are very sweet and soft), and I can’t wait to perform every song on it! i really hope y’all dig it!

― dabug, Saturday, 3 March 2007 15:40 (6 years ago) Permalink

Radosh.net posted a video of a single by Krystal Meyers, whom he refers to as the Christian Avril Lavigne. I thought I'd heard something by her before, but I guess not...video for "Anti-Conformity" here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BhAwFpNjNI

And what the heck: The Xtian Kelly Clarkson: http://youtube.com/watch?v=nh1Gh10-QjA and the Xtian Hilary Duff: http://www.myspace.com/tiffanygiardina.

― dabug, Sunday, 4 March 2007 00:32 (6 years ago) Permalink

I like the Krystal a lot, even if she can't get around to telling us what she's not conforming to; Jessie Daniels has the Clarkson look and the SUBG guitar but a voice that's washed-out Ashley Tisdale (which makes her pale pale pale); might be OK - if anonymous - if she had good material, which this isn't. Tiffany has promise for a little 'un (though at 13 she's a year older than when the young, alienated, outcast Taylor Swift wrote the far superior "A Place In This World"), and I'm glad she's not sounding like Jessie's little girl whine.

I was ignoring Holly and the Italians back then too, since I can't tell you what they sounded like - though I remember their being classified as "new wave." Always got them confused with Katrina and the Waves, a similar And The band.

― Frank Kogan, Sunday, 4 March 2007 03:37 (6 years ago) Permalink

Tanya Headon would approve of Holly Beth's record company.

― Frank Kogan, Sunday, 4 March 2007 03:43 (6 years ago) Permalink

Of course, "wrote 'A Place In This World'" probably means "wrote the original version before various Nashville song doctors reworked it."

― Frank Kogan, Sunday, 4 March 2007 03:46 (6 years ago) Permalink

Frank, you should have mixed up Holly and the Italians with Pearl Harbor and the Explosions, instead! (Katrina and the Waves were later, I think.)

Jimmy Draper on the new, reinvented (but not running for President) Hillary:

i got the 5-song sampler of duff's upcoming 'Digni ty'today. actually
just 3 new songs since i have the single, "with love" (#1 on TRL this
wk), and the genius "P:lay with Fire". this is gonna be her best CD by
FAR if the rest is Kylie-esque like this. these tracks are the new
ones, all listed as unmastered on the promo:

"stranger" is is def not the same song as the "stranger (instrumental)"
that leaked last wk. if they're the same, it went thru a major
revision. this one is very mid-eastern-tinged (in vein of mandy's "in
my pocket')and is gonna sound killer in club remixes. anyway, so now
i'm even more excited to hear what vocals she adds to the mystery
instrumental i have--it's a fab dance track.

"Danger" is kinda too '80s for my tastes, it woulda fit on the latter
1/2 of Gwen's L.A.M.B.; my least fave of the sampler(very repetitive)--
good but a tad forgettable. the chorus is "danger danger danger in your
eyes/in disguise" which is essentially the same message as :"stranger".

"burn" has a minimal beat that i could sing "My humps" over. it'sgot
the same kinda bump to it, but more '80s-y. (im prob the only one who
will ever make the connection tho..since it doesnt really SOUND like my
humps) it's a more low-key dance-pop song. again, mid-eastern kinda
vibe.

can't wait til the whole thing!

Oddly, I gave the five-song sampler a couple spins myself a couple weeks ago, and couldn't hear the Kylie connection (also made by somebody I work with), and the songs in general kinda made me shrug. Maybe I should have listened closer? Though then again, it's not like I'm a huge Kylie fan either.

― xhuxk, Sunday, 4 March 2007 13:52 (6 years ago) Permalink

You're right. I was confusing Holly and the Italians with Pearl Harbor and the Explosions, not with Katrina and the Waves - which means that yesterday I was confusing Pearl Harbor and the Explosions with Katrina and the Waves. (I also can't remember what Pearl Harbor and the Explosions sound like, 'cept once again I assume it's "new wave.")

The Hilary-Kylie connection would be to stuff like "I'm Spinnin' Around," which was Kylie's neodisco comeback record (co-written by Kara DioGuardi, though I don't think Kara had anything to do with producing it; but not only did that track revive Kylie's career, it was DioGuardi's first big hit; also co-written by Paula Abdul, originally intended for an Abdul comeback LP that never materialized), rather than to Kylie's earlier Stock-Aiken-Waterman music. Anyway, "Play With Fire" does go for both disco and Kylie-like lightness; don't know if it's a DioGuardi composition/production, though people have been saying that pretty much everything on the new Duff is. And it is (or was, if the album doesn't follow through) a different direction for Hilary, though interestingly enough Kara had a hand in Hilary's early music, most notably "Come Clean" and "Fly." But those were much more in the style that producer and co-writer John Shanks had created on Michelle Branch's "Everywhere." Also, while I like "Play With Fire," I don't love it the way I love "Come Clean" or (for that matter) Britney's "And Then We Kiss," which was her neodisco move.

― Frank Kogan, Sunday, 4 March 2007 21:25 (6 years ago) Permalink

Anyway, "Play With Fire" does go for both disco and Kylie-like lightness; don't know if it's a DioGuardi composition/production, though people have been saying that pretty much everything on the new Duff is.

I don't know about production, but it is a DioGuardi (co-)composition. She's credited on 9 of the album's 14 tracks so far; the final 5 haven't shown up on BMI or ASCAP yet.

― Nia, Sunday, 4 March 2007 21:52 (6 years ago) Permalink

Checked out [Removed Illegal Link] to see what her actual "Christian" stuff is like; sound is basically rock going from softness to loudness to quasi-Ramonesness, depending on the song, none of the three as good as "Anti-Conformity"; Krystal's not got the near-feedback that Avril can put into her voice; the lyrics to "Beauty of Grace" vague out as much as the lyrics to "Anti-Conformity" do - though if you're gonna say "The mistakes that you made: forgiven!/The memory's erased" then I guess you won't dwell too much on the mistakes; but detailing mistakes sure made Montgomery Gentry's "Some People Change" and Carrie Underwood's "Jesus Take The Wheel" far more touching than this song is. Choosing not to turn one's back on the past is far more interesting than undergoing a memory wipe.

"Collide" has more emotion: "Collide, crash into me/Collide, I want to be broken by you." "Bring your storm to me." The romantic sublime Christianized. But if you want divine collisions that really sound shattering, you're better off listening to Flyleaf.

(I put "Christian" in quotes not because I doubt Krystal's Christianity but because I don't like how evangelicals have tried to appropriate the term "Christian" for their sole use. Not that this is my issue.)

― Frank Kogan, Sunday, 4 March 2007 22:13 (6 years ago) Permalink

Oh, poo, I guess they're still not letting ilX link to MySpace. Go here for Krystal Meyers' MySpace: http://www.myspace.com/krystalmeyers.

(I wonder if the similarity between Krystal Meyers and Bristol Myers helps get Krystal name recognition.)

― Frank Kogan, Sunday, 4 March 2007 22:17 (6 years ago) Permalink

Experimenting with links, to see if I can get this to work:

http://www.myspace.com/krystalmeyers

http://www.myspace.com/krystalmeyers[/link]

― Frank Kogan, Sunday, 4 March 2007 22:25 (6 years ago) Permalink

OK, so is it that for some reason MySpace and YouTube links (unlike some others I've done) are "illegal" when you try to give them some link title other than the URL, but not when you make the URL itself the title?

― Frank Kogan, Sunday, 4 March 2007 22:28 (6 years ago) Permalink

Maybe some Teenpop thread-ers would like Swedish singer Maia Hirasawa. Here is the video for her new song "And I Found This Boy":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRIyb8Sqol8

― Tim Ellison, Monday, 5 March 2007 00:03 (6 years ago) Permalink

(Though obviously it seems more like contemporary retro UK indie pop. Pipettes just signed to a major in U.S., by the way.)

― Tim Ellison, Monday, 5 March 2007 00:06 (6 years ago) Permalink

I think there's a great audience for good indie pop with U.S. kids, but no one in radio or anywhere wants to take a chance.

― Tim Ellison, Monday, 5 March 2007 00:56 (6 years ago) Permalink

Quick point about the Britney headshave and "pop." Thing is, if a high-school punk girl did a headshave, it would certainly be a meaningful act for her, and there's no way that a girl's going bald in a high school (even if she's in Berkeley or some place like that) doesn't put her at risk and doesn't make her a target. But nonetheless, its public meaning is already pretty much defined and encapsulated: "Punk Girl shaves head, punk girl acts punk, dog bites man, we know what this means." So in effect whatever might have gone into the individual act (her shaving her head) can't travel far without being "understood" hence not thought about.

Now, I'm not saying that the tabs are necessarily doing great thinking about Britney. (Frankly I've only looked at the 'bloids' covers so I don't know in detail what they're thinking.) They seem to be trying for a mental illness angle - "SNAPPED!" - and then are taking the thing to "What will happen to the children? Can Britney be a good mother?" And of course to the alcoholism and/or drug addiction. But there's some way that Britney's act is not computing, is still open to interpretation, its public meaning not finished. A friend of mine - a woman my age - says, "It's a big loud FUCK YOU" - which seems right to me, though maybe that over focuses it. According to a customer in the tattoo parlor, "She didn't want anybody to touch her. She said she was tired of people touching her and that sort of thing." A "No!," a denial, tired of being sexy. Something. The thing is, as a personal last-straw desperate act, it actually conveys whatever impulses punk girls might have had for shaving their heads in the first place. And my point then is that within punk "shave your head" is curtailed and limited as to what it can do, whereas within pop it's more potent.

This is somewhat in response to Matt A. above ("The problem is the indie people who are fans of indie music for superficial reasons, or for reasons pertaining solely to the personality traits of the performer"). My problem with indie - and this dates back to about 1980, with my first published rant on this subject being in 1985 - isn't that as individuals indie people aren't sufficiently curious and open in their listening (some are, some aren't), but that the postpunk environment that punk/postpunk/indie types like me had created has long since gotten to the point where it can shut down the effectiveness of any of the music it embraces, whether it's blues or movie soundtracks or country or anything else. I mean, shuts it down in the indie environment. Anyway, I don't want to get dogmatic about this, and maybe what I should just be saying is that the postpunk indie-alternative world has shut down the effectiveness of punk moves, whereas in pop similar moves can still have impact. (Pop may shut down moves of its own, just not the same ones, and not with indie's deadening effect on the music.)

This is also in response to Dave Bedbug's most recent blog post (March 03, 2007), my realizing I ought to write this down before Dave writes it for me.

― Frank Kogan, Monday, 5 March 2007 01:14 (6 years ago) Permalink

Pop may shut down moves of its own, just not the same ones, and not with indie's deadening effect on the music.

This is so incredibly black and white. No moves that have been shut down in pop have had a deadening effect on the music? Isn't every mediocre or bad pop record actually an example of this?

I think you're right about the shutting down of the effectiveness of punk moves in the postpunk indie-alternative world, but not 100%. Some moves that might be considered "punk" in some sense have continued to be transcendent. I have no idea why you're arguing that the postpunk indie-alternative world by nature shuts down the effectiveness of other aesthetics it embraces.

― Tim Ellison, Monday, 5 March 2007 01:27 (6 years ago) Permalink

Isn't every mediocre or bad pop record actually an example of this?

OK, I take that back, but surely there are examples of it and I don't really know why indie is a greater example of THE MUSIC DYING.

― Tim Ellison, Monday, 5 March 2007 01:30 (6 years ago) Permalink

Well, notice I was doing the passive-aggressive maneuver of saying "shuts down every music it touches" and then half taking it back ("well, the punk music it touches").

Gotta go work on a piece now.

― Frank Kogan, Monday, 5 March 2007 01:37 (6 years ago) Permalink

It seems to me that many times I have heard contemporary country, for example, and thought that the effectiveness of "country" moves in the country world have been shut down.

― Tim Ellison, Monday, 5 March 2007 01:38 (6 years ago) Permalink

Given the thirty years of punk hair, I actually think that Britney Spears shaving her head seems like an act that's devoid of meaning regardless of whether it occurs in the pop context as opposed to a punk context. If there's a "fuck you" in there, maybe it is precisely in this. A sort of Self Portrait move.

― Tim Ellison, Monday, 5 March 2007 02:36 (6 years ago) Permalink

The Post Show posted a music video parody about fallen teenpop stars here: http://www.superdeluxe.com/sd/contentDetail.do?id=D81F2344BF5AC7BB3007045D274B54B1E560A6E7BD8699A5

I'd say it's just a one-note joke, but the song is too good to ignore. I think it's the Dick in a Box factor - come for the mockery, stay for the catchiness?

― Mordechai Shinefield, Monday, 5 March 2007 08:24 (6 years ago) Permalink

not sure if Audio Club's 'Something Serious' really belongs on this thread but it should be a hit. similar to Kelly Clarkson's 'Walk Away' production wise but with the amusing male rapper (sounds like Petey Pablo meets Chilly Gonzales meets Borat - check the way he says "you smell nice")/female singer dynamic working very well tho it feels overtly 'retro' (late 80s, bordering on Paula Abdul/MC Skatcat at times - but not necess. a bad thing).

― blueski, Tuesday, 6 March 2007 08:48 (6 years ago) Permalink

youtube oh so it's a few months old already of course. good fun tho, esp. love the rapper Brooks Buford.

― blueski, Tuesday, 6 March 2007 08:55 (6 years ago) Permalink

Tim, I think there's a lot that country and postpunk have in common, and several years ago I called country "a fake moral, fake rowdy, bullshit lie." But one sharp difference is that country rarely prides itself either on its shock value or its novelty. I'd retreat somewhat from my statement about country (at least I'd change "bullshit" to "interesting"), since performers like Eric Church and Montgomery Gentry seem to gain aesthetically from their moral confusion. Country doesn't know what to make of its own rowdy impulses, doesn't know whether rowdiness and rebellion are signs of character or signs of moral weakness. So claims to rowdiness are interestingly uneasy. (Not that such tension doesn't exist in pop and metal and hip-hop and punk - the tension is one of the things that "Search and Destroy" and "Final Solution" are about, after all.)

― Frank Kogan, Thursday, 8 March 2007 01:57 (6 years ago) Permalink

that Audio Club song deserves to be the club banging single of the year.

― Matt Armstrong, Thursday, 8 March 2007 02:23 (6 years ago) Permalink

Audio Club single reminds me of Los Umbrellos (Scandinavian, big barechested black guy in cowboy hat, two blonde beauties with him), though Audio Club seems to be playing it (even) more for laughs. Think the singing is fairly ordinary sub-Girls Aloud dance pop, but the rapping is fine, swift, funny.

This posting of the video has better sound, I think:

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=1559688692

― Frank Kogan, Thursday, 8 March 2007 02:45 (6 years ago) Permalink

I don't see that tension in "Search and Destroy" and "Final Solution" so much as I see burnout! Better to burn out than fade away bullshit, but at least "Final Solution" is funny (whereas "Search and Destroy" is bad Jim Morrison!).

― Tim Ellison, Thursday, 8 March 2007 02:54 (6 years ago) Permalink

OK, I see it in "Final Solution":

livin at night isn't helpin my complexion
The signs all say it's a social infection
A little bit of fun's never been an insurrection

― Tim Ellison, Thursday, 8 March 2007 03:22 (6 years ago) Permalink

Although the only thing he's admitting to there is the complexion thing. Otherwise, it could just be read as partying endorsement.

― Tim Ellison, Thursday, 8 March 2007 03:32 (6 years ago) Permalink

Ariana (here) calls herself a punk at heart and sounds like a very low-rent Paris Hilton. She lists the usual punk influences ("dance music, lil kim, madonna, trina, black buddafly, gwen stefani, shifty, electronica, hip hop, beyonce, pop, christina aguilera, britney spears, r&b, blues, ludacris, 50 cent, lil wayne, bubba sparxx, chris brown, sean paul..."). The songs don't really go anywhere, it's all pretty raw, haven't decided if I enjoy listening to it, but I'm curious what you guys might think.

― Frank Kogan, Thursday, 8 March 2007 03:59 (6 years ago) Permalink

Misspelled her name: it's Arainia.

― Frank Kogan, Thursday, 8 March 2007 04:01 (6 years ago) Permalink

― bobby bedelia, Thursday, 8 March 2007 08:07 (6 years ago) Permalink

Warning: AI content

I've been disagreeing with Simon so much this season. I think the show is fading into irrelavance for me (not overall though, ratings are actually up this year) and the reason is SONG CHOICES. It's not enough for the judges to stack the deck with four big divas (plus Jordin too if you wanna count her), now they criticize any song choice that's not a big slow power ballad. "Haley, you sang the song well, but it wasn't a power ballad and so is therefore an inferior performance." They should be encouraging people to step outside their box, not forcing them into it.

I like Haley. She just brings some kind of ridiculous, cabaret, over the top vibe that I kind of dig. I thought she's done OK all 3 weeks, but no great performances. She's going home, and it's not entirely undeserved, though I hope she stays. Gina brings the rocker chick vibe and she's just so likeable and I liked this performance a lot. Antonella was decidedly "not bad" though clearly deserves the boot.

DIVAS: Melinda is clearly the most talented but she basically has given the same performance 3 weeks in a row. Whoever said her lounge R&B act was gonna get old is OTM I think. Curious to see how she'll do in theme weeks. Stephanie is a really great performer, though her vocals aren't always up to par. LaKisha I like OK but she's been really blah for me 3 weeks in a row now. She's got power, but does she have anything else? (Actually, I thought "I Have Nothing" was her best performance yet). Sabrina is so boring and conveys no emotions with her singing. She just overpowers the melody with runs. Go home please. Jordin isn't even really a big-voiced power diva at all. I like her. But how was her performance of "Heartbreaker" NOT karaoke? A karaoke classic done in a basically karaoke style. Whatever.

Actually, I think the guys, while less talented than the girls, are more interesting than the girls, because there's way more variety in the singing styles.

― Greg Fanoe, Thursday, 8 March 2007 14:05 (6 years ago) Permalink

("dance music, lil kim, madonna, trina, black buddafly, gwen stefani, shifty, electronica, hip hop, beyonce, pop, christina aguilera, britney spears, r&b, blues, ludacris, 50 cent, lil wayne, bubba sparxx, chris brown, sean paul...")

best list of influences ever, must check her out

― lex pretend, Thursday, 8 March 2007 14:18 (6 years ago) Permalink

"Girlfriend" by the way, debuts at #5 on the Billboard Hot 100 today. It remains to be see whether it will pick up the radio airplay to sustain such a lofty position.

― Greg Fanoe, Thursday, 8 March 2007 14:24 (6 years ago) Permalink

TashBed's latest effort is called "I Wanna Have Your Babies"(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6jDtv5O0r8) and is the first single from her upcoming album. More uptempto, dance-ish stuff along the lines of "These Words" or "If You're Gonna Jump" as opposed to her sweet sounding acoustic stuff. Haven't had a chance to listen to it much yet, will report back when I do. I like what I've heard so far and I like the video.

― Greg Fanoe, Thursday, 8 March 2007 15:29 (6 years ago) Permalink

BABIES BABIES BABIES BABIES BABIES BABIES BABIES

the woman is...i don't know. i just don't know. i can't tell whether the ways she's playing with the bridget jones archetype is clever or annoying or both.

― lex pretend, Thursday, 8 March 2007 15:31 (6 years ago) Permalink

i think i love the song though.

― lex pretend, Thursday, 8 March 2007 15:31 (6 years ago) Permalink

though it's def more of a "!!!!!!!!!!" love than a "&hearts; &hearts; &hearts;" love

― lex pretend, Thursday, 8 March 2007 15:32 (6 years ago) Permalink

you know. HEARTS. however you get them to appear

― lex pretend, Thursday, 8 March 2007 15:32 (6 years ago) Permalink

Lex, please explain the difference between a "!!!!!!!!!!" love and a "&hearts; &hearts; &hearts;" love. I'm genuinely curious.

― Greg Fanoe, Thursday, 8 March 2007 15:46 (6 years ago) Permalink

!!!!!!!!!! = this is so wtf and mental that it has temporarily fused any quality control i might have - i am glad that pop stars are so mad but whether this song ends up supremely irritating me or whether i end up totally addicted to it, i cannot say

― lex pretend, Thursday, 8 March 2007 15:54 (6 years ago) Permalink

I must agree with Lex. Natasha song = !!!

She's actually singing about wanting random men's babies. It's cRAZY!

I actually can never forgive Bedingfield for a crime against music she perpetrated with a cover of "Wild Horses" and a music video featuring Reese Witherspoon getting fingered on a rolling coaster. But this song almost redeems her for me. Almost. (I'd love to hear Christopher Walkin do a commentary on this song - I don't know why, but I feel like it'd be hilarious.)

Also, are the lyrics actually saying she's as serious as gravy? Is gravy really serious?

― Mordechai Shinefield, Thursday, 8 March 2007 18:01 (6 years ago) Permalink

I actually can never forgive Bedingfield for a crime against music she perpetrated with a cover of "Wild Horses" and a music video featuring Reese Witherspoon getting fingered on a rolling coaster.

Eek, don't remind me. This video nearly ruined Reese Witherspoon for me. Though I did like TashBed's Unwritten (apart from that song and a couple others) a lot. Agree with the general consensus that "I Wanna Have Your Babies" is completely mental.

― Greg Fanoe, Thursday, 8 March 2007 18:24 (6 years ago) Permalink

Completely mental in a GOOD way. This is possibly the best 2007 single I've heard so far.

― Greg Fanoe, Thursday, 8 March 2007 18:25 (6 years ago) Permalink

Well, I'm unconsenting to the consensus; find TashBed's vocal stylizations on "Babies" too stylized and irritating and lacking in feeling; which isn't to say I dislike the track or don't appreciate its ambition or "craziness" or whatever, though don't see what's so bonkers about jazz showoff vocals. It still ends up on the coffee table. And "Unwritten" is the Tashi song I look forward to hearing, so I guess I'm Greg in reverse.

― Frank Kogan, Thursday, 8 March 2007 20:28 (6 years ago) Permalink

I do like how on "Babies" the Tashic One is giving herself big bashing trashbin beats to wend her way around.

Also, if we're talking about the Tashbed, I guess we can talk about Tunstall a little (though unlike Tashacles, KT has never gotten Disney play); just discovered over on Poptimists that KT used to sing for a London Jewish gypsy klezmer band, prefer that to what she's doing now. Linked the band on rolling country, will do it here too. Recommend "Ladino Song":

http://www.myspace.com/oivavoi

― Frank Kogan, Thursday, 8 March 2007 20:36 (6 years ago) Permalink

oh god kt tunstall. so boring, klezmer band or no klezmer band.

― lex pretend, Thursday, 8 March 2007 20:42 (6 years ago) Permalink

'these words' is mildly endearing but pre-BABIES BABIES BABIES BABIES SPRINGING OUT LIKE DAISIES, the only tashbed song i actively liked was 'single', her debut. and a few years later i can't even remember how it goes.

― lex pretend, Thursday, 8 March 2007 20:43 (6 years ago) Permalink

I like the babies song. Don't hear the vocal style as showoffy.

― Tim Ellison, Thursday, 8 March 2007 20:49 (6 years ago) Permalink

Don't like the video, though.

― Tim Ellison, Thursday, 8 March 2007 20:49 (6 years ago) Permalink

"Girlfriend" still weak on Top 40 airplay over the last seven days: jumped a not very impressive 173 spins over the previous week to a not very impressive 257 spins (which incidentally puts her just ahead of a weak performing "Smile" by Lily Allen); compare to 9,669 spins for Nelly Furtado's "Say It Right." But I'll bet the digital sales will get the attention of some radio station personnel. Not sure the song fits any format very well, which could work for it (it's unique!) but probably won't. I'm cheering for it, however.

― Frank Kogan, Thursday, 8 March 2007 20:52 (6 years ago) Permalink

I find it ironic that the three songs I've really enjoyed thus far this year have been batshit crazy. Avril Lavigne's Girlfriend (which is unabashedly about stealing someone's boyfriend), R Kelly's Flirt (which is unabashedly about flirting with someone's girlfriend), and Babies (which is unabashedly about wanting babies). Oh! And Stewie, the most batshit single thus far (which is unabashedly about making Stewie noises and going cRaZy!). Whew. What a year so far.

― Mordechai Shinefield, Thursday, 8 March 2007 20:56 (6 years ago) Permalink

Am liking both of the Good Charlotte singles; haven't paid much attention to the lyrics, assume Mordy's criticisms will hold, though if I understand the lyrics correctly, they would find it refreshing to tune into the radio and hear a singer go "Put your hands on my girl."

― Frank Kogan, Thursday, 8 March 2007 21:15 (6 years ago) Permalink

It's mostly the lyrics that I find bonkers about "Babies". For the record, Frank, "Unwritten" is my favorite TashBed song (it was on my top 10 singles of 2005 list that I distributed to friends).

― Greg Fanoe, Thursday, 8 March 2007 21:21 (6 years ago) Permalink

Also I enjoy the symmetry of the fact that "Girlfriend" is the lyrical opposite of "Boyfriend" (by Ashlee).

― Greg Fanoe, Thursday, 8 March 2007 21:23 (6 years ago) Permalink

re: "Babies." is it just me, or is TashBed incapable of correctly pronouncing words?

First example: "hyperbole" in "These Words"

Now: "nonchalant" in "Babies"

WTF?

― electroghost, Friday, 9 March 2007 03:09 (6 years ago) Permalink

God. I can't get over the brilliance of "I wanna have your babies / You're serious like gravy." Greatest lines of the year. (And if that second line is something else, I don't want to hear about it.) I like the idea of Babies, gravy and Bedingfield being some kind of twisted Dada experiment.

― Mordechai Shinefield, Friday, 9 March 2007 06:05 (6 years ago) Permalink

serious like crazy, surely?

― lex pretend, Friday, 9 March 2007 09:41 (6 years ago) Permalink

Damnit.

― Mordechai Shinefield, Friday, 9 March 2007 10:16 (6 years ago) Permalink

Ah, Greg, I see, I thought when you said "apart from that song" you meant "Unwritten," whereas you actually meant "Wild Horses."

― Frank Kogan, Saturday, 10 March 2007 06:56 (6 years ago) Permalink

From MTV News:

Ashlee Simpson, busy writing her next album, said fans should expect a more soulful sound. "I'm from Texas, I come from that background," she said. "It's cool because on my last two records I was writing with the same people and now I'm writing with a bunch of different people. I'm writing with my guitar player Ray [Brady] and just seeing where it goes." Simpson is eyeing an October release.

― Frank Kogan, Saturday, 10 March 2007 07:00 (6 years ago) Permalink

P!nk's "U + Ur Hand" had a sizable jump in Top 40 airplay (a jump of over 500 spins; it's now the 20th most played song on Top 40 radio) during the last seven days. Does anyone know why? (A couple of weeks ago a Billboard columnist mentioned its long-delayed rise but didn't speculate as to why.)

― Frank Kogan, Saturday, 10 March 2007 07:31 (6 years ago) Permalink

So, I decided that I like the Jordan Pruitt album, pretty much all of it. Wouldn't say I love any of it, but it's consistently enjoyable to listen to. None of it hits me as especially super-cliched or especially non-cliched lyrically, but then again none of it inspires me to micro-analyze the lyric sheet under a magnifying glass, and I'm not sure how else I'd figure out the answer to said question. My favorite tracks are probably a couple of the more obvious (and I think somebody maybe said cliched up above) ones -- "Miss Popularity" and "Teenager", plus "Later," which is a slow one and at first I didn't think I'd like it much but the way its melody cascades (butterfly-like? that Michael Jackson song about butterflies-like?) is really pretty, and there's something interesting about how Pruitt's vocal rhythms in it split the difference between Beyonce' and K.T. Tunstall, two singers who I can usually either take or leave. (Actually, I could be wrong about that equation, but the equation occurs to me every time I hear the song.) If somebody made a strong case for "Outside Looking In" or "Who Likes Who" or "When I Pretend" or "My Reality" (which somebody may well have done somewhere up above; I haven't checked), I could probably be fairly easily convinced that one or more of those is better than the three I named as my favorites. "Jump to The Rhythm" has some rudimentary trace of Bo Diddley or Bow Wow Wow or something in its jump. What are the singles again?

― xhuxk, Saturday, 10 March 2007 15:09 (6 years ago) Permalink

xhuxk, singles are "Outside Looking In" and "Jump to the Rhythm" and wikipedia is listing "Teenager" or "Miss Popularity" but who knows on that.

Eloquent case for "Outside Looking In" (this is xposted from my blog, about 7 months ago, which means it's long):

Some discussion of Jordan Pruitt on the teenpop thread, and I'll repeat here what I wrote there: I am really loving her song "Outside Looking In". In addition to a really nice vocal performance by Jordan Pruitt, and a nice laid-back melody, I really love the lyrics. It deals with the issue of teen rejection/loneliness (which isn't all that different from adult rejection/loneliness) in a way that totally works, and I don't think I've quite seen used in another song. Rather than attempting to paraphrase, let me quote directly from what I said on the teenpop thread:

"...one thing I really love is the "You don't know how it feels..." aspect to it. Of course, the reason the song works is that EVERYBODY knows how it feels to be on the outside looking in. But that feeling of loneliness can, in my experience, create a kind of self-pity, "Nobody has ever had to face this before me, I'm all alone" feeling. So not saying you don't know how it feels in an accusatory way (a la Tom Petty's "You Don't Know How It Feels to Be Me") but in a self-pitying way. I would guess this feeling is especially prevalent in the more self-centered teen world, which is why I think it works better as a teen pop song than it would in other genres."

Even though the verses have a really accusatory feel to them, like I said that's not how I interpret the chorus. I interpret speaking directly to her tormenters, the ones who are rejecting her, "YOU don't know how it feels..." in a way that feels just so real and raw. Not in a way of trying to blame them or make them feel bad, just trying to show them how much they've hurt her, and self-pitying as I say in the quoted passage above. I think this song is so great because virtually anybody can probably relate to the song, not just as the speaker, but also as the accused. Who here has not felt rejected/alone or made other people to feel rejected/alone? Not only that, but Jordan totally sells the vocals. Jordan's only 15, and her album comes out in early 2007, written entirely by her and her two co-writers on "Outside Looking In". I'm looking forward to it.

― Greg Fanoe, Saturday, 10 March 2007 18:53 (6 years ago) Permalink

Speaking of "Outside Looking In", here is the "Outside Looking In" contest: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ibL_lWgNRM

Whoever had the best story on what the song means to them and how they've felt on the outside looking in. "Don't be afraid to tell us your thoughts and feelings". Hah, the best videos uploaded to Youtube will be personally interviewed by Jordan Pruitt for a 30 minute documentary on the making of the song. Should be interesting.

― Greg Fanoe, Saturday, 10 March 2007 19:06 (6 years ago) Permalink

Are the Fratellis still teens? They are close, I think. They are also apparently the "best new band in Britain," according to the NME. And they have a song called "Flathead" in both an ipod commercial apparently (not that I've seen it, seeing how I don't watch TV) and in the U.S. Hot 100 (or at least it was there last week.) Also they apparently start rows in the loo, or something. Not that you can actually hear any row-starting in their music (just like the Libertines before them and Oasis before that.) Album, which I lasted through a few songs of, shambles in a politely energetic way at times. It's better when they try to music-hall than when they try to rock, though not much better. Best thing I can say about it is that I didn't hate it as much as I expected to.

― xhuxk, Saturday, 10 March 2007 23:11 (6 years ago) Permalink

Fratellis have a couple of tracks entering, leaving, and reentering the British charts; I listened to "Whistle For The Choir" a couple of weeks ago and then forgot what it sounded like, but fortunately I took notes: "This isn't terrible. Lennonesque melody, acoustic." (What's a Lennonesque melody? I probably meant the late '60s, slightly aggressive slightly pained tunes like "Instant Karma" rather than the early '60s exuberantly pained tunes like "Not A Second Time." Assuredly I did not think "Whistle For The Choir" was as good as either of those two.) "I feel that I am recognizing this song's merit rather than liking it. The way the singing Fratelli goes 'A boy like me is irresistible' has a nice 1920s feel, but it would be better with a 1920s arrangement and a 1920s (or 1890s) singer, someone capable of a singer totally at ease with offhand show tunes like 'Yessir, that's my baby.'" (So a think that's my thumb sitting on its thumbs rather than it being a thumbs up. Of course, I'd go listen again if I were more conscientious.)

― Frank Kogan, Sunday, 11 March 2007 00:17 (6 years ago) Permalink

"someone capable of a singer totally at ease" - to make sense of this, delete the phrase "capable of a singer."

― Frank Kogan, Sunday, 11 March 2007 00:24 (6 years ago) Permalink

A teenpop threader creates a Platinum Weird fansite.

― Frank Kogan, Sunday, 11 March 2007 05:56 (6 years ago) Permalink

Re: Jordan Pruitt. At least in Outside Looking In, I hear something in her voice I like. There's a tremble, like it could almost break that reminds me of Dashboard Confessional. But my friend said it best: Her voice isn't strong enough to carry on with so little accompaniment. I'd only addendum that slightly: If the lyrics were just a bit better, just a bit more diverse and interesting, she could've pulled it off. As it is now, the only really interesting thing is that quiver in her voice, and the potential that it could turn into something more. I suppose there could be something interesting in terms of the reaction to the song (the way that the people she's referring to in the song hear the song) and that kind of reminds me of Jimmy Eats World's The Middle. (Particularly Greenwald's critique of the music video for The Middle in Nothing Feels Good - he writes that it's about isolation, but it speaks to everyone. It lets everyone feel that isolation, but is still a mainstream, cross-denom phenomenon. At least, that's what I remember him saying.)

― Mordechai Shinefield, Monday, 12 March 2007 06:42 (6 years ago) Permalink

Rolling RD 3-12-07: Year 3K takes the top spot, Hilary stalls around 25-ish (haven't checked against KDIS airplay yet), in the Incubator is an Xtian pop band with some kinda link to Jump 5 (they share a Svengali or something), Pure NRG label MySpace here: http://www.myspace.com/ferventrecords, "Live My Life for You"...elsewhere AnnaSophia Robb has a boring ballad from that movie whose name I don't remember (Narnia-ish) and in the Mailbag is the Truth Squad doing a Peter Pan song. Veronicas get as close as they'll ever get to RD with Everlife's cover of "I Could Get Used to This." Not finding a heckuva lotta reasons to listen very much lately.

― dabug, Tuesday, 13 March 2007 03:11 (6 years ago) Permalink

Way tardy thoughts on "Chemicals React" (been lost in multi-features-ville.)

The opening Linn drum kick and Roland 120 chorus guitar makes me wonder if those sounds, utterly emblematic of the 80s, are now official pop kitsch quotation tones ala a Shaft wah-wah figure.

The guitar approach: An interesting gambit, making it wall of treble with almost no mid-rage. one assumes the idea was to make room for the snare and the vocals, which it does. And to render what's basically a Ramones sort of guitar attack sound less offputtingly punk. But the buzzzz treatment also robs the chords of some of their piquancy, and these are mighty tasty chords.

Vocals: Brilliant! The harmonies are using the robo-simulacra effect of Paris' vox to super smart effect--their sheer robo-ness is a lovely sonic and conceptual spar with Aly's impassioned, very bio lead vox. I have to wonder if somebody in the control booth is a major Beatles fan--the hold-the-root-note thing with occasional switches to thirds is class Fab Four and delightful; in this unexpected context.

The final fist-pumper vocal vamp is a delight: it's like the arena rock Bic-lighter thing trimmed to 2:46 seconds of pep.

Wondering how the lyrics jibe with the whole Christian thing.

Whatever--a terrific song, rendered in the main terrifically.

― i, grey, Tuesday, 13 March 2007 13:58 (6 years ago) Permalink

The thing about the babies song for me is that, while it does sound like "a nice summery hit," there's something lame about the casualness with which she's talking about the subject. I can't help hearing it as being kind of phony.

― Tim Ellison, Tuesday, 13 March 2007 19:10 (6 years ago) Permalink

RIP Betty Hutton

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/14/movies/14hutton.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClGNm89GZBE

― dabug, Wednesday, 14 March 2007 03:59 (6 years ago) Permalink

I have to wonder if somebody in the control booth is a major Beatles fan

Producers and songwriters (w/ the Michalka girls) are Antonina Armato and Tim James, who also collaborated with Aly & A.J. on "Greatest Time Of Year" and "Not This Year," and did the very different-sounding (to my untrained ears) "Come Back To Me" for Vanessa Hudgens (r&b rather than Beatles-Ramones); and seven years ago did Hoku's great "How Do I Feel (the Burrito Song)" - and all the other Hoku songs, including "Another Dumb Blonde." Ian, if you ever get the chance I'd love it if you could analyze "How Do I Feel" and "Come Back To Me," since neither sounds much like the other, or all that much like Aly & A.J. - but you might be able to draw out some similarities that I wouldn't have the knowledge to hear. (Hoku has a much lighter sound than Aly & A.J., but there are probably melodic and harmonic similarities.)

I wouldn't think that Armato and James and the Michalka would be referencing the '80s, even if they're deliberately copying the '80s, since few of the kids in Aly & A.J.'s prime audience would get the reference.

― Frank Kogan, Thursday, 15 March 2007 06:11 (6 years ago) Permalink

YouTube will be forced to take down the Betty Hutton video sooner or later (that's what happened last time it was up); I recommend it enthusiastically.

― Frank Kogan, Thursday, 15 March 2007 06:14 (6 years ago) Permalink

Re: "Chemicals Ract" 80s sounds/Beatles haromies.

I'm always very interested in production fashion. Like couture, it depicts a conversation with Now and the past and the interstices where Then becomes revitalized in morphed form. (Really, I'm not a theory freak.)

Just noticed that "React" also has pop-and-slap bass in the verse, which is uber-80s. Meanwhile, the Linn kick was absolutely verboten in any sort of pop for the last 15 years.

I don't think the producers are referencing--I think they've just decided the statute of limitations on all of these songs is over. It's part of what makes the song so frackin' exciting--you literally, on some level, have no idea what going to be thrown at you.

― i, grey, Thursday, 15 March 2007 17:44 (6 years ago) Permalink

er--"sounds", not "songs"

― i, grey, Thursday, 15 March 2007 17:45 (6 years ago) Permalink

The sound fashion thing is one reason I find most indie stuff so stulifying, so deadly dull.

Especially the official Indie Drum Sound/Style, that flat, low ambience, boxy sound and playing style that signifies "I'm too cool to give a crap about how this is played" or something.

twenty years, and it hasn't changed a fuckuva lot.

― i, grey, Thursday, 15 March 2007 17:48 (6 years ago) Permalink

Word on the street is Skye Sweetnam's getting dropped in the aftermath of the Capitol/Virgin merger. Not confirmed yet though.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/buzzbands/2007/03/like_a_lot_of_f.html

― dabug, Thursday, 15 March 2007 22:00 (6 years ago) Permalink

Shit, that makes me unhappy.

― Frank Kogan, Thursday, 15 March 2007 22:34 (6 years ago) Permalink

But this makes me happy. It makes me proud, because my grandmother was born in Odessa.

― Frank Kogan, Thursday, 15 March 2007 22:36 (6 years ago) Permalink

it depicts a conversation with Now and the past

When I first read this, I - truly - thought that the "Now" referred to was the album series [Removed Illegal Link].

― Frank Kogan, Thursday, 15 March 2007 22:41 (6 years ago) Permalink

Oops, a catastrophic appostrophe: let's try again:

[i]it depicts a conversation with Now and the past

When I first read this, I - truly - thought that the "Now" referred to was the album series Now That s What I Call Music.

― Frank Kogan, Thursday, 15 March 2007 22:45 (6 years ago) Permalink

But this makes me happy.

Perhaps one day I will learn to smile again.

― dabug, Friday, 16 March 2007 00:51 (6 years ago) Permalink

This might help a little.

― dabug, Friday, 16 March 2007 03:09 (6 years ago) Permalink

No wait, This might help a little

― dabug, Friday, 16 March 2007 03:10 (6 years ago) Permalink

Joe McCombs says that the chart rebound of Pink's "U + Ur Hand" was due to the song's being belatedly serviced to dance radio in remix form and then taking off from there. As of today it's number 16 on Mediabase's Top 40 airplay list, and is also getting additional action on Hot AC. (Maybe the fact that a couple of Skye's producers are on this late-breaking hit will convince Capitol Records to spare her the guillotine.)

― Frank Kogan, Friday, 16 March 2007 05:16 (6 years ago) Permalink

Reviewing The Dollyrods album and it *should* be teenpop; it sounds like what every Disney network girl band should sound like, all sugary sweet yet cracklingly poppy (which makes it sound like a breakfast cereal!) with fun infectious choruses that still 'rock out' kinda like '80s poof metal bands did or Joan Jett (it is on her label) playing in Morningwood if they did surf music for the new generation. Loud cover of "Brand New Key" makes me want to go skating. xhuxk would either approve or be disappointed, I never know for sure, but I like it okay.

― NYCNative, Friday, 16 March 2007 19:52 (6 years ago) Permalink

Finally got a copy of the Good Charlotte album. Still working on my review about it, but Teenpop specific observations: lot of songs about being depressed and dark ("All Black") though that song also namedrops Johnny Cash. Also, Frank, I find that "Keep Your Hands Off My Girl" single incredibly disturbing. On a couple different levels.

― Mordechai Shinefield, Friday, 16 March 2007 21:32 (6 years ago) Permalink

The only recent thing I heard from the Dollyrots (who counted as teenpop last year) was from their Myspace called "Because I'm Awesome," which reminds me of something that could have been on the Clueless soundtrack.

― dabug, Friday, 16 March 2007 21:50 (6 years ago) Permalink

I don't think I've mentioned Stephanie McIntosh here, though I've been liking "So Do I Say Sorry First" for a while; it's now getting its push as a single. The opening riff could be Sixties progressive rock, such as Cream's "Tales Of Brave Ulysses," a psychedelic scream from the guitar; but McIntosh sings "dit dit dit" above it, as if the rock were generating pop, and then what follows is totally Eurobosh love-pained poppiness in melody and lyrics - "If I cry would you hold me just like we rehearsed/So do I so do I say sorry first?" smart words, about a couple's love quarrels turning into shtick, into routine - while the guitars go for the same rocking loudness that Luke and Max have been inserting into their pop lately. (I think there is some Martin and Rami input on the album but not this song, which is co-written and most likely produced by Tom Nichols.)

Over on Poptimists they've been using "bosh" to mean your basic Europop Eurodance and also for Eurodance covers of rock songs, while this I'd call "bosh rock," meaning that it's a pop song with a lot of guitar crunch that is nonetheless totally dancepop.

― Frank Kogan, Friday, 16 March 2007 22:12 (6 years ago) Permalink

Stephanie McIntosh is Aussie soap star Jason Donovan's half-sister, and Stephanie herself is in the cast of Neighbours (which never aired here and which I've never seen, even when Kylie was on it). There was a making-of-the-album reality show, modeled I suppose on Ashlee's, that is possibly going to air on U.S. MTV this year. Her first single, on the heels of the show, did very well in Australia, and the next two did progressively worse, which is too bad, because actually they've been getting better, the "So Do I Say Sorry First?" being the best of the three.

― Frank Kogan, Friday, 16 March 2007 22:19 (6 years ago) Permalink

(Sasha Frere Jones calls "Because I'm Awesome" the 5th best song of the year so far)

― dabug, Saturday, 17 March 2007 00:13 (6 years ago) Permalink

they've been using "bosh" to mean your basic Europop Eurodance and also for Eurodance covers of rock songs

In that case I should note here that I have been enjoying the recent bosh compilation Club NRG on Interhit Records. Favorite tracks: Culture Beat's "Take Me Away" (which has the most Snap-worthy rapping), Ondina's "Summer Of Love" (in part for the bubbledancheall toasting), Newton's "Sky High" (which I think I prefer to the original by I think Pilot), Outta Control's "Together (In Electric Dreams)" (which I think I prefer to the original by that Human League guy and Giorgio Morodor or whoever did it.)
Other artists covered include Elton John with Terri Desario (or whatever her name was), Madonna (twice), Bonnie Tyler (covered by Nikki French, who is the most famous artist on the compilation I believe), R. Kelly, Eric Carmen, No Doubt. One of the tracks ("Don't Cry For Me Argentina," I think?) has the exact same melody of some Simon and Garfunkel song.

― xhuxk, Saturday, 17 March 2007 20:02 (6 years ago) Permalink

Oops Club NRG Volume 1, to be exact ("over 70 minutes of non-stop dance hits!")

― xhuxk, Saturday, 17 March 2007 20:06 (6 years ago) Permalink

One thing I should say though is that, while the bosh tracks' fairly consistent (and sometimes transcendant) beauty and n-r-g inevitably stands out when the CD is in my changer with four other (country/metal/hip-hop/whatever) discs, if I try to play all 70 minutes at once their saminess gets oppressive.

― xhuxk, Saturday, 17 March 2007 20:15 (6 years ago) Permalink

Finally heard the Cassie CD, and (as I already knew from her Mice Pace) "Long Way 2 Go" and "Just One Nite" do a nice job of somewhat filling out her sound without losing the chill-warmth dialectic of "Me & U." "Just One Nite" also has touches of "Bali Ha'i" South Pacific hauntingness. But a surprise is "What Do U Want," which is what you get when you cross "Me & U" with Avril's "Girlfriend" - has the spareness and the nonchalant hauteur you'd expect but also throws in cute bubblegum cheerleader chants and a left hook that's half Asian (like Cassie). The idea seems to be that she's got a tough crew of cute little cheerleader cupcakes who will help her make the boy cry. "You want my time, my money, and my body too/Give me one good reason I should give it to you/LET'S GO!" When she says "Boy it's your turn to shake shake shake shake shake, yeah yeah yeah yeah-yeah-yeah yeah yeah" she means "shake with fear," while of course the music dances with joy.

― Frank Kogan, Sunday, 18 March 2007 03:01 (6 years ago) Permalink

Marv Reynolds, 42, father of 11-year-old Ashley, slipped into his daughter's bedroom for one more look at the liner notes to her Britney Spears album Monday. "Just like to see what my daughter's into these days," said Reynolds, perusing the photo-packed booklet accompanying Spears' Oops!...I Did It Again for the fourth time in as many days. "I bet she'll put this on the moment she gets home from soccer practice in 20 minutes." Upon hearing a car pull into the driveway, Reynolds, who has previously browsed the liner notes to his daughter's Mandy Moore and Christina Aguilera CDs, put the Spears disc back exactly where he found it and left the room

― bobby bedelia, Sunday, 18 March 2007 16:20 (6 years ago) Permalink

Area pedophile Dwight Sanderson said Monday that his interest in getting to know and eventually meeting MySpace.com member "Courtneee" has significantly declined after a closer read of the "lame" hobbies and "self-involved" blog entries on the 13-year-old's profile.
"At first, she seemed like my type of girl—innocent-looking, single, and, best of all, she lives right nearby," he said.
Sanderson continued: "Her profile seemed very enticing at first. She plays softball in the same park that I always hang around in. But right before I was going to leave her a private message, I decided to check out her latest blog post."
He said the 1,500-word entry "droned on and on" about everything from dealing with her great-grandmother's death last year to hopes for her new job as class treasurer.
"I'm looking for a cell-phone number and a home address, not your life story," he said.
Though admittedly discouraged, Sanderson, who classifies himself as "not very picky," said he still hoped that Courtneee could play a small, fleeting part in his future.
"I'm an optimist, even though I've been burned by girls like Courtneee in the past. You think you know everything about them—their dark secrets, their heroes, their class schedule—but they end up betraying your confidence and talking about your relationship behind your back to any authority figure who'll listen," Sanderson said.
Sanderson pointed out several other "red flags" in Courtneee's profile, including "pathetic, almost obsessive" blog entries about her ex-crush, the fact that her "Interests and Personality" section mentions that she might want to have children someday, and her terrible taste in movies.
"I'm used to getting involved with younger, less mature women, but she's got the sense of humor of an 8-year-old," Sanderson said. "I can't bring myself to pretend to like 50 First Dates, even to establish a base of shared interests, build rapport, and eventually earn her complete trust."
"Also, one of her friends left a recent comment accusing her of being a 'big-mouth who likes to spread rumors,'" Sanderson added. "I can't tell you how big a turnoff that is for me."
According to Sanderson, the most discouraging revelation came when he viewed Courtneee's "More Pics" section, in which she reportedly looks "way older" than she does in her featured front-page photo.
"When I saw the other pictures, I was like, 'How old is this girl, 15?'" Sanderson said. "In these pictures, she had braces, acne, noticeable breasts—nothing like the baby-faced little girl she appeared to be on her main page. She probably hasn't updated that picture in a year and a half."
Though he made a legally binding promise to himself and law-enforcement officials that he would never pursue another relationship like this, Sanderson says he nonetheless plans to "give it a shot."
"Internet dating can be risky," he said, "but at my age, and their age, it's really the only way."

― bobby bedelia, Sunday, 18 March 2007 16:30 (6 years ago) Permalink

Uh... I think I'm missing something, bobby. Like the source, or the context... are these from the Onion?

― Mordechai Shinefield, Sunday, 18 March 2007 21:58 (6 years ago) Permalink

These would be my Pazz & Jop/Jackin' Pop top ten if I were voting today. Won't say that most of them are teenpop (Sadie and Taylor are actual teens, but one's in r&b and the other's in country, though I can imagine each getting teenybopper support), but this thread is as good as any to post this list. I'm deciding that "You" is eligible for 2007 by the "greatest impact this year" rule, and anyway it's the only one here that's likely to be still standing on December 31. I agree with the people who think the Swift song loses its intensity in the chorus, but I feel that the great achy-breaky pang in her throat in the verses more than compensates.

1. Lloyd f. Lil Wayne "You"
2. Taylor Swift "Teardrops On My Guitar"
3. Linda Sundblad "Lose You"
4. Keak Da Sneak "That Go"
5. Sadie Ama "Fallin'"
6. Dragonette "I Get Around"
7. Mia "Zirkus"
8. Drop The Lime "Wake Up Call (Infants Remix)"
9. M.I.A. "Bird Flu"
10. Julieta Venegas "Eres Para Mi"

― Frank Kogan, Sunday, 18 March 2007 22:42 (6 years ago) Permalink

Brie Larson:

Things I Like: "A Day in the Life" - almost "A Song for Emily" sweet, but with more rattling, like nails in a box in the background being shaken. And very The Story is in the Soil, Keep Your Ears to the Groundesque. Which is good. Especially the halted ending, etc.

Things I Don't Like: Her Stevie Knick'esque picture which doesn't do Stevie well and just looks dirty/hippie (not that they always mean the same, but that in this picture they do). Is she doing freak-folk now? I knew Joanna Newsom was big but...

Things I Don't Get??: Can someone explain Bunnies and Traps to me? I read the about us on the website, and it made no sense. Which might be the point - but how can you submit if you don't know what you're submitting to. Maybe someone whose already read it? (Speaking of zines, any news on those Music Sucks issues, Frank?)

― Mordechai Shinefield, Sunday, 18 March 2007 22:42 (6 years ago) Permalink

I agree with Lloyd and Taylor, Frank. I never got MIA - so I'm not going to comment here. Things you're totally missing:

Natasha Bedingfield - Babies (If a song can make me like Bedingfield, it is doing something right.)
R Kelly - Flirt
Avril Lavigne - Girlfriend (I've talked about this above, so I won't repeat.)
Fallout Boy - I'm Like a Lawyer (Alt: Good Charlotte's River if you can deal with the asshole-factor. But Fallout Boy could fulfill the dark-emo-teen slot, and nicely too.)
The entire Spring Awakening OST! People need to get on this. It's incredible. Here's a good starting place: "The Guilty Ones." Such a pretty, harsh, wistful song.

― Mordechai Shinefield, Sunday, 18 March 2007 22:46 (6 years ago) Permalink

cassie says 'what do u want' is her favourite on the album! i must have forgotten to mention it last year, it's just the sort of thing which fits here.

― lex pretend, Sunday, 18 March 2007 22:48 (6 years ago) Permalink

Ha, was planning on cleaning the apartment today (invited my writer's group over for Wednesday so as to motivate myself to finish unpacking the boxes that have been cluttering up my living room since I moved in July!), so will look when I do to see if I can find which back issues of WMS are still around. Except a good deal of today is over, so I might not get to it.

― Frank Kogan, Sunday, 18 March 2007 22:48 (6 years ago) Permalink

xpost

― Frank Kogan, Sunday, 18 March 2007 22:49 (6 years ago) Permalink

Lex, Cassie's wrong. "Me & U" is by far the best (not to say there aren't other great tracks on there). But "What Do U Want" manages to maintain the sexiness of her restraint while not being restrained. (I think I know what I mean by what I just said.)

― Frank Kogan, Sunday, 18 March 2007 22:51 (6 years ago) Permalink

"Guilty Ones" Lyrics:

WENDLA
Something’s started crazy / Sweet and unknown / Something you keep / In a box on the street / Now it’s longing for a home.

ALL
And who can say what dreams are?

WENDLA
Wake me in time to be lonely and sad

ALL
And who can say what we are?

WENDLA
This is the season for dreaming / And now our bodies are the guilty ones / Who touch / And color the hours / Night won’t breathe / Oh how we / Fall into silence from the sky / And whisper some silver reply.

MELCHIOR
Pulse is gone and racing / All fits and starts / Window by window / You try and look into / This brave new you that you are.

ALL
And who can say what dreams are?

MELCHIOR & WENDLA
Wake me in time to be out in the cold.

ALL
And who can say what we are?

MELCHIOR & WENDLA
This is the reason for dreaming.

ALL
And now our bodies are the guilty ones / Our touch / Will fill every hour / Huge and dark / Oh our hearts / Will murmur the blues from on high / Then whisper some silver reply. / And now our bodies are the guilty ones / Our touch / Will color hours / Night won’t breathe / Oh how we / Fall in silence from the sky. / Then whisper some silver reply

― Mordechai Shinefield, Sunday, 18 March 2007 22:52 (6 years ago) Permalink

I've never gotten R. Kelly. I've nothing against his singing, but I've nothing for it, either. "Pretty enough" is my most positive response, "pretty boring" my most negative. (He counts as teenpop as a producer, or whatever, right?)

― Frank Kogan, Sunday, 18 March 2007 23:30 (6 years ago) Permalink

I don't care for his ballads, but Ignition and I'm a Flirt are crown jewels of mainstsream R&B.

― Matt Armstrong, Monday, 19 March 2007 00:12 (6 years ago) Permalink

New Girl Authority album, four tracks streamed on their MySpace and one other streamed at Amazon. I don't recognize any of the five as covers, but that hardly is definitive. Think I like the one on Amazon most (mentions the name "Girl Authority" and claims "we have the power"), nice mixture of southern soul horns, w/ hints of reggae and country, nice loose drummer. Doesn't have the extra hookiness that'll get it on Radio Disney (like I would know)(like Disney's going to play something on a Rounder subsidiary). The rest aren't bad either, I guess; I like "Rhythm Of The World," which could be one of the Cheetah Girls' better tracks. (You can see me falling all over myself with enthusiasm here.)

― Frank Kogan, Monday, 19 March 2007 02:56 (6 years ago) Permalink

"U + Ur Hand" still rising on Top 40 airplay; up to number 15, slightly ahead of "This Is Why I'm Hot." (But getting less than half the spins of "It's Not Over," "What Goes Around Comes Around," "Say It Right," or "The Sweet Escape," which have owned Top 40 for a while.) "Girlfriend" starting to rise substantially, though still weak in total plays, possibly owing to "Keep Holding On" holding on above it.

― Frank Kogan, Monday, 19 March 2007 03:26 (6 years ago) Permalink

Yeah--Spring Awakening is the first major migration of the teenpop thing into abother medium.

But you really do need to see the damned thing for it to really, but really work. And then it's pretty amazing, despite a rushed third act.

― i, grey, Monday, 19 March 2007 05:18 (6 years ago) Permalink

(First producer smart enough to option "A Darkness I know" for some poptress will make a mint.)

― i, grey, Monday, 19 March 2007 05:19 (6 years ago) Permalink

Besides having a kickass score, "Spring Awakeings" is also the first production to directly engage in mindboggling refelections the multiple pederastic weirdnesses lurking around the subgenre.

I can't say how self-aware the creators are about this, but the fact remains that this is a play written by adults and scored by a guy known for sorta age-regressive pop which is about very young teens toiling under adult repression and having fairly explicit sex on-stage, then dealing with rape and incest--again, according to the imaginations of some way older guys---all while a silent chorus (!) of actual, NYC-area teens sit at the sides of the stage, taking the spectacle in.

And again with the mind boggling.

― i, grey, Monday, 19 March 2007 06:28 (6 years ago) Permalink

My own top ten 2007 singles so far are not very teenpop, and possibly not very singles (though the ones that aren't are at least you tube clips, cuts selected for legitimate compilations, cuts on demo EPs, or first-songs-on-myspace pages, all of which fit some definition of singledom, I would think); also, the top ten is ridiculously in flux, and I'm not even sure if I've heard the "single" versions (assuming single versions exactly exist) of the top two both of which I am probably overrating no matter how you slice it otherwise, and there are hundreds of other singles I haven't heard yet, but here goes:

1. Cupid – “Cupid Shuffle”
2. Verka Seduchka – “Danzing”
3. D.B.’z featuring E-40 – “Stewy”
4. Da Muzicianz featuring the Federation – “Go Dumb”
5. The Rich and Famous – “The Rich and Famous”
6. Fabienne Shine featuring Albert Bouchard and Ross the Boss – “Dancing For Eternity”
7. Trigger Renegade – “Destroy Your Mind”
8. Miranda Lambert - “Crazy Ex-Girlfriend”
9. Avril Lavigne – “Girlfriend”
10. Christina Aguilera – “Candyman”

― xhuxk, Monday, 19 March 2007 11:11 (6 years ago) Permalink

The original play Spring Awakenings was written in the 1890s.

you guys should definitely check out Jon Savage's new book Teenage it comes out next month.

― m coleman, Monday, 19 March 2007 11:15 (6 years ago) Permalink

Yeah, I saw a review of the Savage book; looked intriguing.

Bubbling under my top 10 (#s 11 and 12 are Kogan top-of-myspace-page recommendations that could grow on me, especially "I Get Around", which is not a Beach Boys cover but is definitely about getting around and being a girl who can't say no though she knows she should; I've got a certain aversion to synthdance-oriented-rockpop these days, for some reason, though, which applies to both of these songs and may or may not eventually be overcome.) (Since I'd likely vote for albums by Lambert and Trigger Renegade and maybe the Rich and Famous if I were to vote at the moment, and I'd try to therefore avoid voting for singles off those albums for reasons of redundancy, that could give Little Birdy and Dragonette a better shot):

11. Dragonette – “I Get Around”
12. Little Birdy – “Bodies”
13. Toby Keith – “High Maintenance Woman”
14. Lloyd featuring Lil Wayne – “You”

Haven't heard the Drop The Lime remix that Frank lists; I've got their album from last year, and "Wake Up Call" sounds okay on it, but not notably more fun or insteresting than lots of what they've done. What's the remix like?

― xhuxk, Monday, 19 March 2007 11:40 (6 years ago) Permalink

Also, is Rich Boy a teen? Actually, I think he's about 25, but teens are loving him, so this (by me, from the country thread!?) belongs on here too, I think:

So. Does Rich Boy's album (which I'm increasingly loving a lot of) count as country if he comes from Mobile, Alabama, and raps with an audible drawl? Probably not; I'm not hearing anything countrified on a Sparxxx/Banner/ Field Mob level in the instrumentation anywhwere. But I'm still pretty sure I like "Role Models" and "On The Regular" (and maybe "Lost Girls" and "Ghetto Rich") (and obviously "Get To Poppin,'," duh) at least as much if not more than "Thow Some D's," which is a pretty darn good hit single.

xhuxk on Saturday, March 17, 2007 8:34 AM (Yesterday)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rich Boy's "Touch That A**" would be more fun with less retarded words.

xhuxk on Saturday, March 17, 2007 11:14 AM (Yesterday)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Boy Looka Here" (cool marching band beat) also fun on the Rich Boy album. And "Hustla Balla Gangsta Mack" has New Orleans (more era than one probably -- the Meters one and the Cash Money one) in its rhythm and some lively gurl responses from Divinity, and "Let's Get This Paper" does ominousness pretty well. But "Role Models," featuring David Banner and Attitude, totally kicks like party-in-the-background frat rock as far as I'm concerned. Least enertaining tracks: "Madness" (which does ominousness shittily), "Touch That A**" (though its spare sound is okay), "What It Do".

― xhuxk, Monday, 19 March 2007 11:44 (6 years ago) Permalink

Frank tells me Rich Boy's album has been hated on on the Rolling Snap Thread, but I haven't checked out what's said there, so I have no idea why.

― xhuxk, Monday, 19 March 2007 11:46 (6 years ago) Permalink

I've got their album from last year, and "Wake Up Call" sounds okay on it, but not notably more fun or insteresting than lots of what they've done. What's the remix like?

Noisy. Funny. (Or "funny.") Should be on its way to you by couriers whom neither snow nor rain nor heat nor gloom of night will stay from the swift completion of their appointed rounds.

― Frank Kogan, Monday, 19 March 2007 17:46 (6 years ago) Permalink

What I've heard of Spring Awakenings doesn't sound particularly teenpop or particularly modern-day pop and rock 'n' roll even though it's written by a guy who's had pop hits. Ian's probably right that seeing it might make more sense than just listening, but it's got stage actors over-enunciating when they sing, which is what stage actors tend to do, and I haven't really liked much show music since Man Of La Mancha. And my guess is that it's audience is more adult than teen (not that I have anything against adults, being one myself, and I think that teenpop as of Ashlee a couple of years ago was far more thoughtful than the stuff that's made for actual adults, and anyway she was aiming it at anyone who would listen not just at a particular demograph).

― Frank Kogan, Monday, 19 March 2007 17:58 (6 years ago) Permalink

To elaborate on the parenthesis of my previous post: A question not restricted to teenpop is how much difference (or what sort of difference) does it make that I'm listening to music aimed at a prime audience of which I'm not a member. This pertains to almost any music ever made, since I have a wonderful ability to feel alienated from music that someone imagines is made for someone like me. Anyway, at the moment I identify with no audience, ever since the early '80s when I stopped particularly liking or respecting postpunk music, and therefore felt a distance between its audience and me. Anyway, I generally will use music in any way I want or can, but, for instance, if I'm listening to someone speak on the telephone my hearing is enriched if I know something about what's going on at the other end of the line; but that doesn't necessarily mean that the invisible person at the other end hears or understands better than I do. And I think that in 1970-72 I understood the Rolling Stones' and Dylan's output from 1965 (when I wasn't listening to either of them) better than the mass audience those bands garnered at the time. But then, "understanding" means different things. "Understanding" can be my understanding of what the music makers are doing but it also can mean understanding what the audience does with the music - which can vary from audience member to audience member, and the same music can reach a lot of different audiences - and "understanding" can mean understanding what I can do with the music.

All of which is preamble to the fact that without Ashlee Simpson there'd be no teenpop thread, unless someone else got the idea to start it. And I know who Ashlee Simpson is singing to: she sang "So if you're listening/There's so much more to me you haven't seen," and that's a message sent out to anyone who's willing to listen, it's sent out to me, just as Hemingway's In Our Time and Faulkner's Absalom, Absalom! is written for me. Just as my book is written for you, whoever you are.

― Frank Kogan, Monday, 19 March 2007 18:49 (6 years ago) Permalink

8. Miranda Lambert - "Crazy Ex-Girlfriend"
+
9. Avril Lavigne - "Girlfriend"
=
"Crazy Next Girlfriend"

― Frank Kogan, Monday, 19 March 2007 18:52 (6 years ago) Permalink

The part about 'what you can do with it' seems like the most interesting thing to me. After I finished reading "Real Punks..." I felt like the book operated more like a box of tools than a piece of literature. Which is to say, though it wasn't a writing primer itself - it functioned similar to one. It gave you a place to begin with when discussing music. Much like Frankfurt Criticism does (which is to say: It isn't about the Tiller Girls - it /is/ about the language you use when you discuss the Tiller Girls or Ashley or Dylan, etc.)

Frank, I don't know if you're familiar with the Rent phenomenan (actually, I'm not sure if that phenomenan exists outside of my and my wife's highschool experiences) but despite the fact the play was clearly geared to adults - teens completely owned it. When I was in highschool I knew every single lyric to the play (I probably still know a bunch of it). A number of my now adult friends had the same experience, and a month ago in the Pizza shop a table of highschoolers were singing "La Vie Boheme." I'm not saying it's similar to Spring Awakening, but I wouldn't be shocked if something similar happened. Which means it was written for one group, but spoke so much more clearly to another.

― Mordechai Shinefield, Monday, 19 March 2007 18:54 (6 years ago) Permalink

What I meant about "Spring Awakenings" is that it represents a manifestation of teenpop/emo sensibilities to B'way.

And yeah--when you see 17 year olds singing this stuff with a live band, the teenpop-ishness is accentuated. The audience at the performance I attended was the most teen-filled B'way show I ever saw, probably close to a 50/50 split between older people and kids, which led to some serious in-audience tension during the sex scene, which in turn led to lots of giggling at the intermissions.

I think the requirements of theater (narrative-in-lyrics, clarity) and the design of teenpop (the electronics, huge sound, stylized production, etec) are kind of at odds with each other in terms of what can physically be done live. I was really hoping that, when they put out the OST, they'd produce the hell outta the songs, but this is just a live thing.

Pink or Avril NEEDS to do "Totally Fucked".

― i, grey, Monday, 19 March 2007 19:11 (6 years ago) Permalink

Don't know if this interests anyone but myself, but from American Jewish Life Magazine:

Screaming, young fans applauded Ashley Tisdale as she created handprints at Planet Hollywood at the release party for her debut CD, Headstrong, featuring the singles, “Be Good to Me” and “He Said She Said.” The 21-year-old singer-actress, who stars in the Disney Channel’s wildly popular High School Musical, is known for being the first female to grace the Billboard 100 chart with two songs simultaneously.

I chatted with her proud mom, Los Angelino and former New Jerseyan, Lisa Morris Tisdale. Did Ashley have a bat mitzvah? “No. She was busy working, unfortunately, on the road. She’s not totally Jewish. She’s half — my husband’s not, so she was raised a little bit of both.” Any Passover plans? “I have no idea,” she laughed. “We’re never home. We’re always traveling. So, we try to do good holidays wherever we are. And, if we’re with my mother and my family, we celebrate it with them.”

― Mordechai Shinefield, Monday, 19 March 2007 19:38 (6 years ago) Permalink

I don't know if the claim is true about her being the first female to grace the Billboard 100 chart with two songs simultaneously (that doesn't make any sense, does it?). But I like the second paragraph... Jewish teenpop? ;)

― Mordechai Shinefield, Monday, 19 March 2007 19:40 (6 years ago) Permalink

OK, now, the fact that adults helped Ashlee write her material: let's say they even helped her shape her persona (though I doubt it). The nearest analogue might be stuff like Rebel Without A Cause and My So-Called Life. Those were aimed at teens, and had teen characters created and scripted by adults. The teens seem both more thoughtful and more idealistic than the adult characters, in fact (especially in Rebel) seem more capable of helping each other and helping the adults than the adults do themselves. (Perhaps if James Dean hadn't had Mr. Magoo for a father, and Natalie Wood hadn't had Paul Drake for a dad, and the only apparently sane representative of maturity hadn't been Chief from Get Smart!, my attitude would have been different.) Anyway, Rebel and Life might well be adults projecting their needs onto The Teenager, but each is touching. And I doubt that Ashlee Simpson and Kelly Clarkson needed to have their desire for reconciliation on the heels of a difficult childhood projected onto them or created for them by older people.

Let's say Kara DioGuardi rather than Ashlee conceived the idea and wrote the line, "So if you're listening, there's so much more to me you haven't seen." I doubt Kara did (why can't she do anything comparable for anyone else?), but let's pretend. I can see why it might be easier to give a line like that to a nineteen-year-old than to herself, though the line might have been just as true of herself. But coming from Ashlee it has a beautiful combined vulnerability and audacity and optimism that it probably wouldn't have coming from a thirty-three-year-old. And in a way it's an answer to the song's earlier line "Somebody listen please, it used to be so hard being me." Again, it's easier to put in the mouth of a teenager the fact both that life was recently hard and that she can put it behind her. Both could be just as true of a thirty-three-year-old, but the hard life doesn't seem so poignant and the resolution to move forward doesn't seem so possible from someone moving into middle age. And "if you're listening" makes sense coming from young Ashlee. She doesn't know what's in store for her (SNL, Orange Bowl, disappearing market), doesn't know how few will be willing to listen. At thirty-three she might well have found her listeners, or not, but either way she won't be able to project the combined uncertainty and confidence. (Or maybe she will. I at age fifty-three can feel very similar to Ashlee, but again it probably takes an eighteen-year-old to sing it.)

― Frank Kogan, Monday, 19 March 2007 19:41 (6 years ago) Permalink

My eighteen-year-old nephew is a huge fan of Rent, and my friend Naomi's daughter posted lyrics from it last year on her MySpace (at age eleven). So I think you're right about this (though again, the term teenpop is confusing - and I'm not even sure how much it's in use anymore - since it's been hijacked to mean not teenager pop but teenybopper pop).

Avril has two songs in the Top 50 right now. So does Fergie. So does Carrie Underwood - those being the first three who come to mind. There might be more.

― Frank Kogan, Monday, 19 March 2007 19:53 (6 years ago) Permalink

is known for being the first female to grace the Billboard 100 chart with two songs simultaneously

I think what they mean (or what the writer or rewriter misread) was that Ashley had two songs to enter the Hot 100 simultaneously (i.e., in the same week). Those would be the two Sharpay-Ryan songs from High School Musical.

― Frank Kogan, Monday, 19 March 2007 20:19 (6 years ago) Permalink

Is that claim true? Tisdale is the first female artist to have two songs to enter simultaneously? That always sounds really unlikely.

― Mordechai Shinefield, Monday, 19 March 2007 20:21 (6 years ago) Permalink

Doesn't seem strange, actually, since it's extremely rare for two singles by the same act to be released simultaneously, and this was something specific to the High School Musical phenomenon, which saw five or so songs enter at once. My guess is the only time it's happened with male acts is, say - this is speculation - the Beatles hit on Ed Sullivan, "I Want To Hold Your Hand" hits along with the TV appearance, and then their old singles on other labels, which had done nothing previously, all come tumbling onto the charts at once. I don't know if this happened, but it seems like the type of extraordinary circumstance in which it could.

― Frank Kogan, Monday, 19 March 2007 21:00 (6 years ago) Permalink

Is that claim true? Tisdale is the first female artist to have two songs to enter simultaneously? That always sounds really unlikely.

To clarify: Tisdale is the first female artist to have her FIRST two chart singles enter the chart simultaneously. Drew Seeley was the first artist to do the same (the prior week). Since then, I think Katharine McPhee did it. Hannah Montana/Miley had about 5 songs enter the chart at the same time, but since "Who Said" had entered the chart previously, these were not her FIRST two chart singles.

― Greg Fanoe, Monday, 19 March 2007 21:06 (6 years ago) Permalink

xpost (lack of xpost notification on new ILX?)

― Greg Fanoe, Monday, 19 March 2007 21:06 (6 years ago) Permalink

Actually, for all I know, Ashley WAS the first female artist to have two songs debut at the same time, but all I've seen reported is the thing about the first two singles debuting simultaneously.

― Greg Fanoe, Monday, 19 March 2007 21:09 (6 years ago) Permalink

xp x 1,000,000

cuts selected for legitimate compilations

by which i mean tvt crunk-style comps (in this case their hyphy one) which generally seem to collect singles, to such a consistent extent that even though i can't substantiate that "stewy" and "go dumb" have ever been singles anywhere else i have to assume that they must be, or why are they here?

I've got a certain aversion to synthdance-oriented-rockpop these days

residual electroclash-overkill flashback, still. i should really get over it; it's been a long time, hasn't it? which is to say one of these days i'll no doubt realize what great bands the killers and klaxons and scissor sisters are, but not yet. i mean, i liked bands who sounded '80s new wave in, like 1995 or so. but by 2002 or whenever that was, it seemed like the dumbest cliche on earth. i have nothing against the sound per se. i'm just still sick of it, i guess.

Should be on its way to you by couriers

...who brought it today, as a matter of fact.

― xhuxk, Tuesday, 20 March 2007 01:08 (6 years ago) Permalink

Hey Greg, re: your top 10 2007 so far list --
Wasn't Candyman released last year? Also, I wonder what you're hearing on "He Said She Said" that I'm missing. Sure, the video is cute. But as much as I want to like the song - and I really want to like it because I think Tisdale is great (like in HSM) - it seems so bland and formulaic. Formulaic isn't always a bad thing, but here I can barely make out the Tisdale in the song. It sounds like it could've been anyone singing it. Also - I agree with you about 'Babies' - it's not my number 1 quite, but it's totally bananas! (And thanks for pointing out Ellis-Bextor. It's a great song.) At some point this week I'll try to post my list - either here or on the blog.

― Mordechai Shinefield, Tuesday, 20 March 2007 05:58 (6 years ago) Permalink

Also, Frank, I'd pick Tim McGraw over Teardrops on my Guitar. (I figure, since Tim McGraw didn't hit the charts till 2007, it's fair game.)

― Mordechai Shinefield, Tuesday, 20 March 2007 06:36 (6 years ago) Permalink

Hey Greg, re: your top 10 2007 so far list --
Wasn't Candyman released last year?

That was my top ten, I think, and it hit as a single this year (and even if didn't, there are few things as annoying as folks getting all anal about "literal release dates" on top 10s, especially when it comes to singles. On the other hand, Lloyd is gaining on Christina and I'll doubt she make my list anyway. Though then again, the literal release date for "You" was last year too, right?)

― xhuxk, Tuesday, 20 March 2007 10:27 (6 years ago) Permalink

Also, heh heh, "Tim McGraw" (which I prefer to "Teardrops on my Guitar," too, though the latter is growing on me) hit the charts in 2006, didn't it??

― xhuxk, Tuesday, 20 March 2007 10:28 (6 years ago) Permalink

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/43658

― lfam, Tuesday, 20 March 2007 15:09 (6 years ago) Permalink

emo/screamo is teenpop now, right?

heard this band play on the radio this morning (Wine Red). Not bad, but they should cut the guy loose and just let the girl sing.

― milo z, Tuesday, 20 March 2007 19:53 (6 years ago) Permalink

xpost See - I decided by that post that if we're gonna be totally fluid with release dates... I'd rather post Tim McGraw than Raindrops. But yeah, Chuck, heh. I'm totally busted.

― Mordechai Shinefield, Tuesday, 20 March 2007 19:58 (6 years ago) Permalink

Mordy,

First, for the record here are my top 10 singles of the year so far. I don't think I posted this here yet, just on my blog.
1. Natasha Bedingfield - "I Wanna Have Your Babies"
2. Toby Keith - "High Maintenance Woman"
3. My Chemical Romance - "Famous Last Words"
4. Vanessa Hudgens - "Say OK"
5. Hilary Duff - "With Love"
6. Sophie Ellis-Bextor - "Catch You"
7. Ashley Tisdale - "He Said, She Said'
8. Christina Aguilera - "Candyman"
9. Katharine McPhee - "Over It"
10. Avril Lavigne - "Girlfriend"

Tisdale: First of all, please note that this song is not likely to make my top 20 or 30 singles of the year when the dust settles (probably will make top 50). It is generic, and there is almost no Tisdale in it. I think Tisdale, while a weak singer, can have a lot of charm as a singer (see: High School Musical, though her "Kiss The Girl" was way too sweet). Practically talking melody in the verses, on top of a fairly generic, but catchy R&B beat. The talking gives way to a really bouncy melody, hand clap percussion underlying it. Synthesizer strains build up the tension at the end of the pre-chorus, leading up to something big. Previously, we've just had one clear singer, but the chorus cuts out practically all the instrumentation except the percussion and underlies the vocals with harmonies and multiple vocal tracks, and slows it down. Rather than building up to a HUGE chorus (ala, say "Famous Last Words" or "Catch You") it takes a step back. I love the bouncy melody and the slowdown harmony chorus and the further slowdown harmony bridge. The vocals are nothing special and neither are the lyrics, which is what prevents it from going higher.

― Greg Fanoe, Tuesday, 20 March 2007 23:49 (6 years ago) Permalink

OK, that out of the way

Hannah Montana's newest song is "Nobody's Perfect" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSLXHW4I3VU), and I have to say that I did not expect this at all. This would fit right on on Ashley Tisdale's album, and it's a lot more R&B-ish than any of her other songs. At the same time, it also rocks harder than any of her other songs. It's an attempt to take the normal Hannah template and inject different elements on top of it. The "everybody makes mistakes, everybody has those days" part is just injected right into the middle of the song, it doesn't sound like it fits at all. This is way more out of the box than traditional Disney fare. OK, you might notice I haven't said anything about the quality of the song--I'm decidedly lukewarm on it (the melody doesn't seem to be to be anywhere near the best on her last album). If it represents Diz trying to expand the Hannah Montana sound though, I'm all for that. [Have been trying in vain to locate the songwriters on this.]

From Aly & AJ's website: "Aly & AJ are currently in the studio working on their third (and most powerful) album! Look for it in the Summer!" I wonder if by "most powerful" they mean musically or lyrically.

― Greg Fanoe, Tuesday, 20 March 2007 23:58 (6 years ago) Permalink

Yeah. I had seen your list on your blog. Ok - after American Idol tonight (Halley btw - wow!), I'm gonna write up my 2007-so-far list and throw it up here. But yeah, we're in agreement about Tisdale in that song - there's much less of her than in some of her other songs.

― Mordechai Shinefield, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 00:13 (6 years ago) Permalink

I've posted my thoughts on American Idol on the AI thread, but I have to say that Jordin Sparks' "I Who Have Nothing" was amazing! One of my favorite Idol performances I've seen to date.

― Greg Fanoe, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 02:28 (6 years ago) Permalink

Where's the American Idol thread? Anyway, my top 10 singles so far this year (in no particular order):

1. Avril Lavigne - Girlfriend
2. R Kelly - Flirt
3. Taylor Swift - Tim McGraw
4. Natasha Bedingfield - Babies
5. Fallout Boy - This Ain't a Scene, It's an Arms Race
6. The Klaxons - Atlantis to Interzone
7. Lloyd ft. Lil Wayne - You
8. D.B.’z featuring E-40 – Stewy
9. Bright Eyes - Four Winds
10. The Stooges - Free and Freaky / The Stooges - My Idea of Fun

The normal all-over assortment of singles. No particular order, though some are more heavily weighted than others. I can't imagine Bright Eyes, Bedingfield, Lloyd, or Bright Eyes making it to the end. Also, if Spring Awakening OST had a single, it would certainly be on the list. Also, I like both Stooge's singles equally, though my preference is for "My Idea of Fun" slightly over "Free and Freaky" but not enough to not list both - also, I don't like either well enough to give them their own slot. Together they earn slot 10. Any other caveats... oh, yeah. Swift is the cheater listing, because it was a single in 2006 - but it didn't hit charts until 2007. So I'm counting it. Na-na-na-boo-boo.

― Mordechai Shinefield, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 03:02 (6 years ago) Permalink

Ha. I listed Bright Eyes twice as not making it. I guess that makes it doubly-true. I actually meant to include the Klaxons in my list of songs I can't imagine making it - unless it really starts to grow on me more than it has already.

― Mordechai Shinefield, Wednesday, 21 March 2007 03:09 (6 years ago) Permalink

Does anyone have a copy of Jordan Sparks singing "I Who Have Nothing?" I can't seem to dig one up.

― Mordechai Shinefield, Thursday, 22 March 2007 02:03 (6 years ago) Permalink

Mordy,

You can always find the performances on Youtube (this one is here http://youtube.com/watch?v=OzkNMiKjrGU). Now you can download the studio versions and video clips (for pay) from the American Idol site too, if you so desire (http://downloads.americanidol.com/). As for some kind of mp3 for download, I cannot help there.

― Greg Fanoe, Thursday, 22 March 2007 03:01 (6 years ago) Permalink

Mordy, "Tim McGraw" was all over the country charts in late 2006 (I was hearing it on country radio as early as October if not September) but didn't peak until January 2007, so you can always vote for it on the criterion of its "having its greatest impact" in 2007, though that might be a stretch. I voted for Aly & AJ's "Rush" for 2006, even though it already had over a month of Radio Disney airplay in late 2005; the vid and its presence beyond Radio Disney didn't happen until 2007, so that was one of my rationalizations for voting for it; also that it remained a dominant song on Disney for many months into 2006.

― Frank Kogan, Thursday, 22 March 2007 15:01 (6 years ago) Permalink

American Idol Thread hiding over on I Love Everything. But if there are any exceptional performances feel free to link them here. Or talk all you want to about AI over here, I don't mind. I gave up on it several weeks ago, since I didn't think any of the singers was anything special, but Jordin doing "I Who Have Nothing" is nice - not close to being up there with Carrie covering Tiffany and sounding totally Carrie in doing so; but it was a good version of the song.

― Frank Kogan, Thursday, 22 March 2007 15:24 (6 years ago) Permalink

Stream the new Hilary album. You might have to enter yr email address, but I'm pretty sure you can give 'em a fake one. Can't tell the sound quality at the moment cuz I'm not on my own computer.

― dabug, Thursday, 22 March 2007 23:58 (6 years ago) Permalink

For idol performances, use rickey.org

― Tape Store, Friday, 23 March 2007 00:59 (6 years ago) Permalink

Stream the new Hilary album.

They're streaming 24kb/s MP3s, so the sound quality's crummy. Fantastically rippable, though!

On first listen, I'm underwhelmed. Less than underwhelmed. The production starts out all 1997 and meanders back to 1985, and not in a good way.

― Nia, Friday, 23 March 2007 04:16 (6 years ago) Permalink

The low-quality stream drove me away; all the bass was coming out cruddy and fuzz-toned (though I think Kara was going for a lot of fuzz-toned bass anyway). Problem is that I compare everything to "Come Clean." Can we rescue John Shanks from mediocre country and dull singer-songwriter adults and bring him back to teenpop?

― Frank Kogan, Friday, 23 March 2007 13:30 (6 years ago) Permalink

so far this year I'm way more excited about my top 10 singles than my albums:

01 Grinderman – No Pussy Blues
02 Kleerup ft. Robyn – With Every Heartbeat
03 All Saints – Chick Fit
04 Linda Sundblad – Lose You
05 Avril Lavigne – Girlfriend
06 Natasha Bedingfield – I Wanna Have Your Babies
07 Bloc Party – I Still Remember
08 Katharine McPhee – Over It
09 Amerie – Take Control
10 Sarah Buxton – That Kind of Day

― JoshLove, Friday, 23 March 2007 15:21 (6 years ago) Permalink

Only 2 albums this year that I've been excited about so far, Jordan Pruitt's No Ordinary Girl and Fall Out Boy's Infinity On High. Though I haven't listened to any of the indie-approved albums yet (!!!, Panda Bear, Arcade Fire, LCD Soundsystem, etc.)

― Greg Fanoe, Friday, 23 March 2007 16:10 (6 years ago) Permalink

strictly pop:

1. Be Good to Me- Ashley Tisdale
2. Over It- Jordan Pruitt
3. Girlfriend- Avril Lavigne
4. So Much for You- Ashley Tisdale
5. Goin Crazy- Ashley Tisdale
6. Cheat- Linda Sundblad
7. Headstrong- Ashley Tisdale
8. Over It- Ashley Tisdale
9. Lose You- Linda Sundblad
10. Oh Father- Linda Sundblad

Honorable mention- Catch You (S.E. Bextor), Over It (Mcphee)

I'm presuming sundblad's record is 2007. Also, R. Kelly's I'm a Flirt might be my favorite single of the year, but I tried to keep this list strictly teenpop/art-pop.

― Matt Armstrong, Friday, 23 March 2007 18:30 (6 years ago) Permalink

Greg, Panda Bear = Joanna Newsom circa 2006 = Panda Bear circa 2005. Ie: Screechy annoying indie-kid rock. (And you can take that to the bank.)

― Mordechai Shinefield, Friday, 23 March 2007 19:07 (6 years ago) Permalink

Jimmy Draper alerted me to this clip from Entertainment Weekly:

Mr. Simpson tells us Ashlee, Chad [Hugo, of Neptunes], and Kenna were in the studio writing songs earlier this month, and that she's also working with Timbaland, John Legend, and Tim Rice-Oxley of Brit sensations Keane, who teamed up with Gwen Stefani on ''Lonely Winter,'' one of the strongest, most reflective tracks on her recent Sweet Escape album. The bigger shocker? Ashlee's also reportedly collaborating with Robert Smith. Yes, as in the legendary frontman of Alternative Nation icons the Cure. Could their mutual buddy, Fall Out Boy's Pete Wentz, be the connection? When asked by our west-coast counterpart Shirley Halperin, Wentz demurred. ''I doubt I had anything to do with it, 'cause they were friends since she was performing in Chicago [in London last year]. But I definitely only have good things to say about Ash - I think the collaboration could be great!'' Indeed; whatever these two Lovecats come up with, it's bound to be interesting!

― Frank Kogan, Friday, 23 March 2007 20:30 (6 years ago) Permalink

Am liking a lot of what's on this cdbaby CD by Bahaman girl singer Tada. So far, I prefer her in what I'm defining as Lady Sovereign/M.I.A/Lily Allen mode ("OK" and "Tada") and lover's rock mode ("Footprints in the Sand") to her still nonetheless pretty good Rhianna/r&b mode ("Dangerous," though Rhianna is probably not the right reference point -- definitely a Caribbean lilt to the r&b though, so what the heck). The rest of the CD isn't bad, either:

http://cdbaby.com/cd/tada2

― xhuxk, Saturday, 24 March 2007 22:03 (6 years ago) Permalink

Can we talk about Esmee Denters?

― Tantrum The Cat, Sunday, 25 March 2007 03:46 (6 years ago) Permalink

If we know something about her we can.

(OK, just checked her MySpace. She likes Alicia Keyes, who's a good singer to like but not necessarily to emulate, since Alicia is one of the rare recent soulish singers whose soulfulness hasn't turned into dreariness. Would Esmée's being Dutch protect her from being surrounded by overreverence towards the form? I wouldn't know.)

― Frank Kogan, Sunday, 25 March 2007 21:56 (6 years ago) Permalink

Loose ends:

According to Great American Country, Taylor Swift's "Tim McGraw" first hit the country top 40 the week of July 20, 2006.

Other recent singles I'm liking a whole lot: Shaggy "Church Heathen," Ashley Tisdale "Be Good To Me," Silversun Pickups "Lazy Eye," Kleerup f. Robyn "With Every Heartbeat," Thierry Amiel "Coeur Sacre," Calvin Harris "Acceptable In The '80s," Lil Mama "Lip Gloss," Redman "Put It Down," Magnus Carlsson "Live Forever," Mims "This Is Why I'm Hot," Trick Daddy f. Baby "Tuck Ya Ice," D4L "Tatted Up," Modest Mouse "Dashboard," Birdman "I Know What I'm Doing," Stephanie McIntosh "So Do I Say Sorry First?," Miranda Lambert "Famous In A Small Town."

I wouldn't say that many of these are close to teenpop (Tisdale and McIntosh for sure, Lil Mama and Kleerup if you want to count them (why not?), maybe D4L if you want to count snap as bubblegum). I once said that with a better rhythm section and better singers, Sonic Youth's "She's In A Bad Mood" could be a Fleetwood Mac song. Silversun Pickups' "Lazy Eye" might be what I had in mind. Thierry Amiel's "Coeur Sacre" seems to be French sentimental balladeering that interpolates the riff from ATC's great great great Eurodisco hit "Around The World" into its chorus without changing its French-song character except by getting prettier.

Most of the Tada tracks seem likable but in-one-ear-and-out-the-other; the one that stands out a bit is the self-titled "Tada," which, as Xhuxk says, has Lady Sov tendencies.

― Frank Kogan, Sunday, 25 March 2007 23:03 (6 years ago) Permalink

I'm intrigued by Esmee's backstory - multiple Dutch TV appearances & a writeup in
Billboard, all on the strength of her Youtube videos. I'd like to see her get signed, as she definitely has a voice, is cute as a button, and judging from her vlog clips (in which she speaks alarmingly good English), she seems like a genuinely nice kid.

― Tantrum The Cat, Sunday, 25 March 2007 23:08 (6 years ago) Permalink

Thierry Amiel's "Coeur Sacre" seems to be French sentimental balladeering that interpolates the riff from ATC's great great great Eurodisco hit "Around The World" into its chorus without changing its French-song character except by getting prettier.

Listening to this right now off the myspace - fantastic! In addition to what you mentioned, I'm also hearing shades of Technique-era New Order.

More about Esmee Denters here.

― Tantrum The Cat, Sunday, 25 March 2007 23:14 (6 years ago) Permalink

By March 6, she went again to the United States, for writing songs and maybe signing a record deal. She is reported to have signed a deal with songwriter Billy Mann and to have been in the studio with Kelly Rowland.

Billy Mann was one of the writers on the most recent Pink album.

― Frank Kogan, Sunday, 25 March 2007 23:21 (6 years ago) Permalink

Something might actually happen, then.

― Tantrum The Cat, Sunday, 25 March 2007 23:35 (6 years ago) Permalink

My take on Good Charlotte got posted. Hopefully this explains why I find them intolerably misogynistic better.

― Mordechai Shinefield, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 19:43 (6 years ago) Permalink

Good Charlotte's "Keep Your Hands Off My Girl" has a scraping, grinding, gargling sound that's strong and unexpected. Haven't made my way to figuring out what the lyrics are about yet, whether or not misogyny is in the house. Also, think that the track would be more powerful still with some rolling funk embedded in it.

― Frank Kogan, Thursday, 29 March 2007 03:35 (6 years ago) Permalink

Hilary Duff's new album is pretty great in my opinion. Lots of cool tracks, "Outside Of You" is getting thrown on repeat a lot.

― r.h., Thursday, 29 March 2007 04:01 (6 years ago) Permalink

Ross falls in love with Marit Larsen

Kevin Elliott interviews her in Stylus

I think the most important thing I learned is that when you’re standing on that stage and you’re so alone and so naked, it doesn’t matter that the producer was so stubborn or the record company wanted it to be this way or that way, because all the audience sees is you. They’re going think that it’s your opinion, your choices in melodies, and if it sucks it sucks. People won’t buy it.

― Frank Kogan, Thursday, 29 March 2007 05:43 (6 years ago) Permalink

Not sure what to make off the Duff one's new album after first listen. It may end up being in my mind a record with a large number of great "moments within songs" (e.g. the 'Pick it up, pick it up' chant in "Dignity" and the (slightly wtf) 'Were you born in 74?' line in "Danger", the skipped beats in ... whichever song that was) but no outstanding songs as such.

― Jeff W, Thursday, 29 March 2007 13:19 (6 years ago) Permalink

P!nk appears to have co-written "Outside Of You" by the way.

― Jeff W, Thursday, 29 March 2007 13:22 (6 years ago) Permalink

Avril Lavigne, The Manga

― Groke, Thursday, 29 March 2007 16:53 (6 years ago) Permalink

Liking H-Duff more with more listens..."Dignity" should be irking me with its message (I think) but it's a really good song and I don't care so much. And the lyrics aren't as in-yr-face as "Stupid Girls." (Hilary's kind of pissin' in the wind here, trying to position herself in opposition to Lindsay et al -- er, basically just Britney at this point, right? -- like she's got something to prove to somebody...but who's she appealing to, Disney censors? They're barely pushin' "With Love" as it is).

"Gypsy Woman" is great! Would be my favorite if I liked the song as much as the idea of the song...very WTF. Melodic turn-the-can-and-it-moos (or maybe the electronic Baby Jesus on that old SNL commercial) and some snatch of dialogue bookending it and...um, "gypsy" as dark mysterious femme fatale. In 2007. On an American teenpop album. This is like Ch!pz territory. "She can swallow knives/She can swallow lives/Golden black stare/But the night of your demise"...She's "bringing down the family name"(!)

Nice hiccuping track after that, "Never Stop," rollicking, bounds along and threatens to go over the top into a total cartoon but unfortunately doesn't. Hilary's not cool, which is one thing that makes (can make) her music so great (nerdy android trying really hard and sometimes succeeding to move you).

"Outside of You" is kind of Rachel Stevens hard strut til the chorus when it gets about as close as she comes to a confessionalish chorus, nice balance of old with new. Liking the album a lot more. "With Love" is actually kinda weak compared to a few of these. Hard to take the whole album all at once, though...which is actually kinda how I felt about Come and Get It when I first heard it, I guess. Like eating a whole cake (except this cake's not as good). Generally I wish Hilary was as goofy as some of the scenery, though, or did something interesting with surrounding goofiness, like Margaret Berger in "Robot Song."

― dabug, Friday, 30 March 2007 00:00 (6 years ago) Permalink

Ok on third thought this is probably album of the year so far.

― dabug, Friday, 30 March 2007 00:10 (6 years ago) Permalink

Most of the Tada tracks seem likable but in-one-ear-and-out-the-other

Totally disagree with this. If it counts as teen-pop (and Lily Allen and Taylor Swift don't, and/or if they count as 2006) it's my teen-pop album of the year so far*, with way more indelible and easily digestible hooks than on any Ciara or Cassie or Jojo or (closest comparison of these) Rhianna album I've heard. The lover's rock track "Footprints In the Sand" has a sweetness that I haven't heard in any r&b hit in a long time. Also really like "Who You Leanin On," "Superman," "When I Found You," and especially "Tada" and "OK."

* -- Which I guess just means I'd take it over Jordan Pruitt's CD, but whatev.

― xhuxk, Friday, 30 March 2007 00:29 (6 years ago) Permalink

Ok on third thought this is probably album of the year so far.

I was hesitant to say this but man, I liked it a lot when I first heard it and I keep going back to it, so..

― r.h., Friday, 30 March 2007 01:00 (6 years ago) Permalink

According to V.I.P. the next Ashley Tisdale single will be "Not Like That," which I think is her best song. (I can't vouch for V.I.P.'s knowledge; Wikipedia is reporting "Headstrong" getting chart action; different countries may get different singles.) I don't know yet what I think of Tisdale over all: she puts emotion and energy and psychology into her singing, but I'd describe her underlying vocal character as nonexistent, characterless. But if a singer records a slew of good songs, it's got to have something to do with her. She's not up to a slew yet, but her singles have been consistently good ("Kiss The Girl" my least favorite, but it's still likable).

― Frank Kogan, Saturday, 31 March 2007 04:51 (6 years ago) Permalink

Xhuxk, the day Tada samples Toto is the day I'll take her seriously. (That's not necessarily true. I only listened to Tada once, so I'm not dismissing her. I simply wanted to put "Tada" and "Toto" in the same sentence.)

― Frank Kogan, Saturday, 31 March 2007 04:56 (6 years ago) Permalink

Only have listened to the Duff once; consistently good and the two singles are definitely not the best things on it, but nothing has clicked in to totally knock me out yet. Her voice is still small but huskier than before, which I think is a good thing. She's adaptible and probably doesn't have any particular artistic vision or anything really to say (neither of which are prerequisites for great music), but she does always sound like Hilary. This as opposed to Tisdale sounding like so-what. Yet I might end up preferring my two favorite Tisdales to anything on Dignity. Too soon to tell, and three tracks on Dignity jumped out on first listen as strong contenders: "Stranger," "Danger," and "Happy," the first two of which having something of an Asian tinge, and "Happy" (despite its title and lyrics) having a mournful eeriness (which reminds me of freestyle which always seemed to have a hint of the Middle East by way of Spain, which means maybe this one too can be said to have an Asian thing going on). Hilary's singing on "Danger" is quite clearly an attempt to sound like Paris Hilton (which I mean as high praise) - strong resemblance to "Not Leaving Without You." (Both "Danger" and "Leaving" are co-written by Kara DioGuardi, as are all but two tracks on Dignity. As is Tisdale's "Be Good To Me.")

― Frank Kogan, Saturday, 31 March 2007 05:22 (6 years ago) Permalink

I think Tisdale's record is pretty fantastic from start to finish. I enjoy "Not Like That" as well, but it's probably only my 6th or 7th favorite song on the album.

― Matt Armstrong, Saturday, 31 March 2007 05:27 (6 years ago) Permalink

P!nk appears to have co-written "Outside Of You" by the way.

According to a Hilary fan site it's credited to "A. Moore/C. Kreviazuk/R. Maida," and "Pink Inside Management" is listed in the album credits, so you're probably right (Pink's real name being Alecia Moore). Kreviazuk and Maida are the Our Lady Peace people who co-wrote some of the lesser stuff on Clarkson's Breakaway (as well as writing stuff for a bunch of other people too).

― Frank Kogan, Saturday, 31 March 2007 05:32 (6 years ago) Permalink

Kelefa Sanneh may be the best music critic writing regularly in the commercial press, but I think his calling Good Charlotte's "Keep Your Hands Off My Girl" a "foolhardy foray into rap" is pretty foolish itself, since Madden's vocal cadences are hard rock all the way on that song, even if he's mostly talking/snarling the words rather than singing them. Josh Bell in the Las Vegas Weekly says the song is "awkwardly rapping about bling," whereas I think Joel is very effectively bearing down on the words like a rocker. Still haven't made my way to making sense of the words, which may indeed be awkward or foolish but the vocals are fine. Not that rock cadences can't be used in hip-hop, for instance LL Cool J's "Go Cut Creator Go" and Run DMC's "Sucker MCs," good shouting over beats. But the Offspring's "Come Out And Play" seems a more accurate analog to "Keep Your Hands Off My Girl."

(To be fair to Kelefa, he was griping mainly about the words. Still, he seems to be misinterpreting what the music's doing.)

― Frank Kogan, Saturday, 31 March 2007 05:59 (6 years ago) Permalink

"Not Like That" also has an Asian tinge (though DioGuardi didn't help write it).

― Frank Kogan, Saturday, 31 March 2007 06:10 (6 years ago) Permalink

I only liked "Not Like That" OK until I understood what it was really about, or who it was about, which is basically the only Ashley Tisdale that I can identify as unique on the whole album. And it corresponds to how I imagine a Disney star might feel, generally wholesome but not THAT wholesome, making you dance because it's what she's there to do, but still having some second thoughts.

Also, I remember it having a mambo-ish feel, not an Asian feel, but I haven't heard it in a while so I could be wrong.

― dabug, Saturday, 31 March 2007 06:30 (6 years ago) Permalink

I quite like "Keep Your Hands Off My Girl"! That surprises me, more due to the song than the band who I'm neutral about.

Oddly I just picked up Hillary Duff, ultra-belatedly. Much more rock than I was really expecting - "Mr James Dean" is harder than any other 2000s teenpop I've heard, perhaps. And there are times when it feels like Duff is aching to go all Mandy Moore singer-songwriterish, esp. the last two tracks. Weird combination of awful lyrics with strange moments of poetic insight. Good on the whole!

What a strange career development though: "Wake Up" and "Beat of my Heart" sound so much more juvenile than anything on that record (though I don't meant that as a criticism) and now she's going Rachel Stevens-ish? And Avril's done "Girlfriend" and Ashlee's working for The Neptunes/Timbaland... is it the end of the teenpop-as-confessional-rock era?

― Tim F, Saturday, 31 March 2007 06:58 (6 years ago) Permalink

As in, i'm surprised I like "Keep Your Hands off my Girl" given the kind of song it is.

― Tim F, Saturday, 31 March 2007 06:59 (6 years ago) Permalink

Aly and AJ will carry the confessional torch because I'm pretty sure they can't possibly do anything else. And by the same token, I think Ashlee will bring her confessional baggage (her personality) with her, as she did on a lot of I Am Me. Although I am worried what superstar production team means about her songwriting process (i.e. how much Kara needs to be in it for it to still be "Ashlee," but maybe Ashlee will bring Kara with her, too, even if only in spirit). And I think Kelly C. is going more rock, more emotional, not less. And if her next album is as good or as popular as Breakaway, she could help along a resurgence of rock-confessional.

Even if confessional-rock does subside even more than it has already, this is a potentially exciting period, too, because the transitional types like Hilary are bringing little glimmers of confessional to unexpected places -- the ideal being Marit Larsen, whose themes and issues etc. carried over intact from M2M but whose sound is diverse and exciting. Ditto glimpses of confessional in Paris Hilton, Taylor Swift, the Wreckers. Probably others I'm not thinking of.

― dabug, Saturday, 31 March 2007 14:57 (6 years ago) Permalink

hallo. was gonna stop by here and tell you guys about falling in love with (and seeing/meeting) marit larsen at sxsw, but frank beat me to it. but i can alert you to the photos i took of her, which i just got back from my friend, and the best of which i have added to that original post on mincetapes, except for one which is in this new post. in which i also talk about marit some more, specifically regarding her album (of which i finally got a hard copy.)

not sure how much she really qualifies for this thread anymore, except for her obvious historical ties. on the other hand, there are parts on under the surface when her teenpop past comes through - i'm thinking of the exuberant speak-singing on the bridge of "don't save me" ("don't you dare! leave me here!") and the chorus of "the sinking game" ("we dive!") - which for me are some of the most beautiful moments on the record because they stand as reminders of her youthfulness on an album which could be seen as an attempt "grow up" (by going country/folk, not that it's not pop any more) and distance herself from her teenybopper m2m days. those two tunes are also some of the most confessional on the album - which is to say they seem to be most revealing of marit herself. so it's absolutely appropriately that they feel pitched somewhere between youth and adulthood. (as i mention in the blog, some of the more deliberately "mature" tunes don't come off as well.)

anyway, marit was probably as close to teen-pop as sxsw got, unless we're counting lily allen (who impressed me more with her voice in a short acoustic in-store set than she did in a full concert in philly a month back) and amy winehouse (i wouldn't, but seems to be getting discussed here...she was fine to see live but nothing amazing. except maybe her tattoos.)

listening to the h-duff now - pretty sweet.

― rossoflove, Saturday, 31 March 2007 15:09 (6 years ago) Permalink

I am now listening to the retracted Fefe Dobson album Sunday Love and it is obliterating everything ever. It's so pop-metal-disco, no wonder the government wouldn't let it come out. ALBERTO GONZALES RESIGN NOW

― Dimension 5ive, Sunday, 1 April 2007 20:31 (6 years ago) Permalink

Windows media file link for the vid to Tim Armstrong's "Into Action." (This is an experiment to see if links in ilX 2.1 will take quotation marks. If not, this ought to work: "Into Action."

If you don't have windows media player, here's the YouTube.

Sounds like a ska version of "You Can't Sit Down," catchy, reminds me that I like Rancid. I'm posting here because the vocals are shared by Tim Armstrong and Skye Sweetnam.

― Frank Kogan, Sunday, 1 April 2007 20:33 (6 years ago) Permalink

obliterating everything ever

Yeah, the second half was pretty much unlistenable in all previous versions I'd found, but the album kicks ass throughout. In particular from second half, loving Cars synth plus metal crunch in "Initiator," Liz Phair vibes on "Yeah Yeah Yeah," and whoa-oa harmonies over rawkin chugalug on "Miss Vicious." Good non-single ballads, too.

― dabug, Sunday, 1 April 2007 20:45 (6 years ago) Permalink

More doings in Canada, this from the Lillix site:

Lillix is still going.
We're in a rebuilding stage. Two members left, but we are working with new members and will announce them soon.

Much Love
Lacey & Tasha{/i}

I'd guess that a U.S. release of [i]Inside the Hollow is ever more unlikely.

― Frank Kogan, Sunday, 1 April 2007 21:27 (6 years ago) Permalink

Oops, screwed up the italics. I'm the one who's saying that the U.S. release is ever more unlikely.

― Frank Kogan, Sunday, 1 April 2007 21:28 (6 years ago) Permalink

Even though Dabug linked the live version in January of Fefe's "Get You Off," we managed to have loads of commentary on Avril's "hey (hey) you (you) I want to be your girlfriend" and the Stones-Ramones-Rubinoos similarities, without mentioning Fefe's "Hey (hey) you (you) get off of my back."

― Frank Kogan, Sunday, 1 April 2007 22:19 (6 years ago) Permalink

favorite stephanie mcintosh lyric of the moment: "you told me you loved me/i thought that meant you loved me"

from "god only knows," which, in flashes, reminds me musically of the pumpkins' "today," skye's "i don't really like you," "behind these hazel eyes" and "love me for me" (in mostly superficial ways.)

agreed, frank, that "do i say sorry first" is fantastic. (nice call on the "tales of brave ulysses" similarity.) what were her first two singles?
__

one listen through sunday love so far - add me to the choir. this seems not only great, but also eminently more marketeable than, for instance, skye (her debut anyway.) surely there's a market niche for angryish female pop(-punk)/rock (no need to qualify it as teen-) these days - particularly when it has as many 80s nods as this.

"initiator" definitely stands out, as does "man meets boy" (which is, kinda, whoa.)

― rossoflove, Sunday, 1 April 2007 23:15 (6 years ago) Permalink

First two Stephanie McIntosh singles were "Mistake" and "Tightrope." Don't think anything of hers has been released outside of Australia and SE Asia yet, though "Mistake" is slated for U.K. release.

― Frank Kogan, Monday, 2 April 2007 00:21 (6 years ago) Permalink

was going to mention fefe's hey-hey-you-you meme as well - obviously(?) her version is hewing closest to the stones'.

― rossoflove, Monday, 2 April 2007 00:21 (6 years ago) Permalink

I couldn't really take Stephanie McIntosh seriously, there's something about Australian pop or at least my relationship to it where 99% of the time it just seems so much more forced and calculated. "Mistake" is so obviously an amalgam of "Since You've Been Gone" and "Everything I'm Not", but with less power or grace than either. Although I wouldn't go so far as to say it's bad.

Certainly she was better than some of the other Aussie pop-pretenders, such as the truly excerable Kate Alexa.

― Tim F, Monday, 2 April 2007 08:10 (6 years ago) Permalink

glad that everyone's enjoying the hilary album - i was actually initially disappointed that she'd abandoned that...very wide-eyed, ecstatic, on-verge-of-unknown quality which i love about 'come clean' and 'beat of my heart' (still my favourite songs by her); the knowingness of the New Dark Electronic Direction seemed at odds with that. but it's a classy effort, her most consistent album yet for whatever that's worth - just requires a bit of mental readjustment to Nu-Hilarity. love the depeche mode jack on 'dreamer' (i didn't know she actually had a stalker! the song seemed far too breezy and sympathetic to be about a real experience), 'happy' is rachel stevens plus emotion, 'never stop' completely irresistible, 'dignity' v funny and also v catchy - hilary can get away with pitching fits at hollywood shallowness in a way madonna cannot, esp as it's all about lindsay really.

i was going to do my favourite 10 singles of the year so far but could not narrow it down. so here are my 10 most played according to last.fm -

1. Natasha ft Clipse - So Sick
2. Rihanna ft Jay-Z - Umbrella
3. MIA - Bird Flu
4. Estroe - Driven
5. Ciara - Like A Boy
6. Amy Winehouse - Back To Black
7. Amerie - Take Control
8. Lloyd ft Yung Joc & Missy Elliott - Get It Shawty
9. Avril Lavigne - Girlfriend
10. DJ Khaled ft Akon, TI, Rick Ross, Lil' Wayne, Fat Joe & Birdman - We Taking Over

'umbrella' already in second place despite me only hearing it for the first time on thursday! this is because i have basically played it 9484739333 times in a row since.

― lex pretend, Monday, 2 April 2007 08:29 (6 years ago) Permalink

Woah, just heard "Umbrella". Awesome.

― r.h., Monday, 2 April 2007 12:00 (6 years ago) Permalink

My daughter, yesterday: "OMG Dad did you hear what the title of the new Hilary Duff album is? DIGNITY! LOL!"

― Dimension 5ive, Monday, 2 April 2007 13:11 (6 years ago) Permalink

What odds the follow-up will be called 'God's Favorite'?

― William Bloody Swygart, Monday, 2 April 2007 13:26 (6 years ago) Permalink

Still only halfway into the Fefe and haven't yet decided if the combination of vocal agony and pretty tunery is a mismatch that works brilliantly or one that crashes badly. Damn interesting, though.

― Frank Kogan, Monday, 2 April 2007 17:13 (6 years ago) Permalink

I'm going to repeat something I said earlier, but this time in caps:

HILARY'S SINGING ON "DANGER" IS QUITE CLEARLY AN ATTEMPT TO SOUND LIKE PARIS HILTON.

― Frank Kogan, Monday, 2 April 2007 17:18 (6 years ago) Permalink

man... it is really obvious, huh? Wow.

― Matt Armstrong, Monday, 2 April 2007 17:29 (6 years ago) Permalink

Just posted this on the rolling country, though it belongs here just as much, since Mary's was probably the greatest voice in the history of teenpop (lead singer of the Shangri-Las):

Only've heard the MySpace tracks and 30-second clips of the rest of the Mary Weiss. Her voice has adult richness, but it also seems a lot more rigid than that of the wailing teen we formerly knew her as. Maybe this is a defensive reaction on my part when rehearing a former flame, to immediately think "Oh, it's not that good" - to get a jump on my own potential disappointment and therefore not really feel the disappointment. So I may take a while before reaching a balance in my appraisal, but I am disappointed. "Break It One More Time" does seem a strong song but weighed down by the singing.

― Frank Kogan, Monday, 2 April 2007 19:35 (6 years ago) Permalink

Idolator, Pitchfork, NME, EW, etc. get the "scoop" on Ashlee possibly working with Robert Smith (which we've been talking about since January 21st), proceed to say idiotic things.

Pfork: "But Ashlee Simpson-- more talented than she's often portrayed for sure, but still the co-author of "you make me wanna la-la"-- pairing with scene hero Robert Smith is perplexing at best, disheartening at worst. What results from the link-up remains to be seen, but something tells us we're still better off placing our wagers on Mike Watt and Kelly Clarkson."

Y'know, I don't want to badmouth people by name or anything, but I get the sense that some of these writers are reading this thread or at least the writing of people who contribute here and then using it to insult those same people (and the artists we talk about)...this is about ten times worse than your standard "Ashlee sucks" line. Like, what kind of a person would qualify a swipe of "La La" with the opinion that Ashlee's misunderstood? What songs are they talking about that display more of Ashlee's "talent" than "La La"? It just seems like those are incompatible positions. (This isn't the first time this has happened either...I was targeted specifically in their review of Meg & Dia's album -- funny that the guy also called Skye Sweetnam by her first name alone, like so many people outside of this thread and her message board are on a first-name basis with her! His phrase was "I've begun to envy the 16-year-olds who get to live with and cry on the shoulders of Ashlee or Skye and not feel the least bit sleazy or bad about it," which also suggests he's never actually listened to either of them.)

Just venting.

― dabug, Monday, 2 April 2007 23:17 (6 years ago) Permalink

hay guyz i was wonderin what u all thought of falloutboy, esp their new (newish i guess) single, the arms race one. i couldnt find a thread so this seems like the best place 2 talk abt it (unless there is a rolling modern rock radio thread). anyway i think it is pretty awesome, i have herd 3 falloutboy songs and they are all cool imo. the new one sounds sorta teenpop-ish and reminds me of god i dunno, n'sync or something. kanye west did a remix and it is horrible but it is also funny because he starts his verse off with the line "i dunno what the hell this song talkin about" (lmbo!), imo he should've just looped that line for the rest of the song. i think mostly what i like about them is that the singer does less of the over-annunciating nasal stuff than a lot of popular rock acts these days. at least in dis song~

here is the video which is not good imho~~~

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FcBnaLjxY4

― cankles, Monday, 2 April 2007 23:54 (6 years ago) Permalink

not close to being up there with Carrie covering Tiffany and sounding totally Carrie in doing so

Frank, this goes back a bit but what were you referring to with this comment?

Unrelated, "Irreplaceable" wins favorite song at the kids choice awards

― Greg Fanoe, Tuesday, 3 April 2007 00:17 (6 years ago) Permalink

OK "Umbrella" might be my favourite song so far this year.

― r.h., Tuesday, 3 April 2007 02:11 (6 years ago) Permalink

"I Who Have Nothing" is nice - not close to being up there with Carrie covering Tiffany and sounding totally Carrie in doing so; but it was a good version of the song

Greg, I meant that Jordin's "I Who Have Nothing" was a good performance of a good song but not nearly the great American Idol moment that (at least on retrospective evidence from YouTube) Carrie Underwood's cover of Tiffany's "Could've Been" was. Carrie really nailed and wailed the song and made it warm and mature without losing its spark and sounded herself even while venturing off her usual country terrain. I've now listened to a whole hunk of Carrie's idol performances, and "Could've Been" and "Sin Wagon" are my two favorites; I like "Alone" too, which you linked above; she did a reasonable job on "Independence Day" but didn't deliver either the terror or self-righteousness; hard to run up against Martina McBride at her absolute best.

(Also, her song choice wasn't so docile. "Sin Wagon" was one that the Dixies hadn't dared release as a single; and I don't think that in early '05 it was clear that singing the Dixies wouldn't have potentially alienated people in Carrie's future fan base. I wonder if this was on her mind at all, and what the fact that she likes songs like "Sin Wagon" and "Independence Day" says about her, whether there's any kind of statement there. She sang "Goodbye Earl" on pre-Idol demos.)

Speaking of which, last week Melinda Doolittle did smart singing of Donna Summer's "Heaven Knows" but totally failed to dominate in the chorus, which you just have to do to deliver the song. Amid everyone else's gushing Simon said it wasn't one of her best, and he was right. I guess Melinda deserves to win, since she does a good job of anything she tries and can wend her way through difficult passages without strain, but I'd be surprised if I ever gave a damn about a record she made. The two kids with emotional inspiration (Jordin and Gina) don't have anything like her chops or savvy, and if they were genuine originals this wouldn't matter, but so far they're just young singers who sing like they mean it. They do have potential. Thought "Paint It Black" was godawful, but I liked what Gina did last week, though I don't remember what it was. (I'm by no means hearing all the performances; just checking out what people on this thread and the ILE AI thread seem to like.)

― Frank Kogan, Tuesday, 3 April 2007 15:53 (6 years ago) Permalink

Oh, I'm wrong, the Dixies' "Sin Wagon" was a single, but it flopped, stalled at 52 on the country charts, I'd guess because of radio station squeamishness.

― Frank Kogan, Tuesday, 3 April 2007 16:06 (6 years ago) Permalink

Frank, you seem to be indicating that you are underwhelmed by the Idol talent. I've been watching Idol regularly since season 3 (so this is my 4th) and I watched parts of seasons 1 and 2 here and there (I have since seen all of Kelly Clarkson's performances). But I agree with you Frank. As TV entertainment, I find it great, but as far as musical talent goes there isn't much there. This season has probably been even weaker than most.

Carrie Underwood combined chops with emotion. She is probably the best contestant there's been in my time watching. Most people on the internet hated her, saying she lacked emotion in her singing. I think they just didn't like country music. [and "Independence Day" is one of the best vocal performances in country history. No fair comparing her there. Of course that means that cover versions like those on Idol are superfluous.] Other than her, there hasn't been any great talent since I've been watching. JPL was extremely entertaining and a very gifted karaoke interpreter, but nothing special. Melinda is talented but boring boring boring. Metal Mike liked Kellie Pickler (season 5's country singer) even more than Carrie Underwood, and she was even more hated on the internet. Her "Bohemian Rhapsody" was good. Metal Mike liked her "Unchained Melody" but I thought it was bad.

The one contestant who IS trying to make songs his own is Blake Lewis. When the theme doesn't allow him to do a song in his style, he's "reinterpreted" previous songs to fit it. (See "You Keep Me Hanging On" and "Time of the Season"). Problem is that he's not that talented, and the style he's going for is boring to me, but at least he's trying. Chris Sligh did a really awful re-arrangement of "Endless Love".

But to try to give consistently interesting performances of cover songs, with one week to prepare, every week for, what 15 straight weeks is a near impossible task. Kelly C and Carrie could handle it and they've had the success to back it up. I highly doubt anybody else from seasons 3 through 6 will ever make any music I care about.

Gina did "I'll Stand By You" last week.

― Greg Fanoe, Tuesday, 3 April 2007 16:49 (6 years ago) Permalink

Heh, "on the internet" is unnecessarily combative and vague, but I just mean that was my general impression from message boards, blog posts, etc.

― Greg Fanoe, Tuesday, 3 April 2007 16:50 (6 years ago) Permalink

And of course, making music I care about is highly dependent on songwriters, etc. I sure care about Katharine McPhee's "Over It" and a couple of her other songs, and maybe some others will get a great pop song in there like that. But it's not her vocal performance that makes me like the song, and that's the general point I was trying to make.

― Greg Fanoe, Tuesday, 3 April 2007 16:54 (6 years ago) Permalink

And this will be my last consecutive American Idol post, but I just wanted to say that I love Jordin Sparks but it has as much to do with her personality as her singing. I agree with Frank that Jordan's emotional resonance outpaces her raw ability.

― Greg Fanoe, Tuesday, 3 April 2007 16:55 (6 years ago) Permalink

xpost

Dave, was the Meg & Dia reviewer the one who tried to imply that you were a perv for posting questions for Brie Larson - at Brie's invitation - on her MySpace? That guy was really foul, wasn't he? I wouldn't necessarily assume that the person doing the Ashlee-Smith news item reads us. He does have his head up his butt (or is it a she, in which case it's her butt that her head is up), not just 'cause he has an opinion I disagree with but because of the fake breezy know-it-all tone he adopts while having zilch in the way of worthwhile knowledge or insight. But I don't take it personally, though if he is reading this thread it's disheartening that one can do so and remain so thoughtless.

Anyway, there's lots of insecurity out there: don't know what it's all about, but I assume there's (1) the fear of not being hip (hence the breezy know-it-all tone); (2) the fear that one's hard-won critical stance in young adulthood is bollocks ('cause here are these teenpoppers making smarter music, or so some people seem to think); (3) fear of teengirl* sexuality; (4) fear of mainstream girls who are flaunting their sexuality while being insufficiently butch; (5) fear of the teen audience; (6) fear of the mainstream audience; (7) fear of being boring (hence the hardy-har smirking adolescent tone of some of these people, e.g. the ones who try to troll this thread).</paperback psychologizing>

*Interesting that it does seem to be all around teen girls. I never noticed anyone suggesting I was a perv for liking the teen Arctic Monkey guys who did "I Bet You Look Good On The Dance Floor" or for that matter back in the day liking the teen Spoonie Gee who recorded "Spoonin' Rap" or the teen Cure guy who recorded "Killing An Arab." (But I don't remember people giving me shit for liking Poly Styrene or Roxanne Shanté either, so maybe it's not that much a gender thing or a sex thing. The sexual insecurity is a cover for class insecurity, and the real issue is that Ashlee et al. belong to the wrong class, whereas Robert, Poly, Roxanne et al. don't. And Ashlee's violation is to cross that class barrier, as is ours. I'm just guessing; it's not as if the people who write these sneering tidbits include much in the way of psychosocial self-analysis.)

― Frank Kogan, Tuesday, 3 April 2007 17:16 (6 years ago) Permalink

You've mentioned Jessica Sierra, for whom I've got no name recognition. Any favorite performances (then or since)?

I've liked several Fantasia tracks ("Hood Boy" and "When I See You"), and the previous Daughtry single ("It's Not Over"), but not the new one. I doubt that either of those singers will ever make a difference to me, but you can never tell. And as I've said I don't think if I'd been paying attention I'd necessarily have pegged Kelly Clarkson coming out of American Idol as being anything special other than a singer with a big voice and lots of spunk. She's really been a surprise.

― Frank Kogan, Tuesday, 3 April 2007 17:41 (6 years ago) Permalink

(That question was for Greg.)

― Frank Kogan, Tuesday, 3 April 2007 17:42 (6 years ago) Permalink

Jessica Sierra: Season 4 contestant, BFF with Carrie Underwood. Eliminated during the top 10 week, unfortunately. Key performance is "Total Eclipse of the Heart" during the week of 11, "American #1's" (same week as Carrie's "Alone"). Come to think of it, it doesn't improve on the original either, but she's got chops and she brings the drama.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5FtmhfDqmU.

I guess you seem to disagree Frank but Kelly's "Stuff Like That There" is probably still my favorite idol performance.

― Greg Fanoe, Tuesday, 3 April 2007 18:22 (6 years ago) Permalink

i was wonderin what u all thought of falloutboy

I like "Arm's Race" and like the newest one even more ("Thanks For The Memories") though Fall Out Boy don't yet mean much to me, but they surely belong on this thread. Lia, my ex's 14-year-old daughter, recently posted a MySpace bulletin of the songs she was going to listen to all summer. They were all the stuff from when she was 7 - not least of whom was *NSync - except the one current performer was Fall Out Boy.

― Frank Kogan, Tuesday, 3 April 2007 18:23 (6 years ago) Permalink

Greg, I like "Stuff Like That There," very impressive and hard to do, to update a style so well and seem at ease, but it's still just an excellent, assured version of stuff that's barely ever going to matter to me (not because it's from the show-tune era but because that's kind of all it is: a good spunky update from the show-tune era that isn't... well, it doesn't have the personality of either that era or this one, and it isn't "Murder, He Says"); it doesn't hint at what we're gonna get from Breakaway.

― Frank Kogan, Tuesday, 3 April 2007 18:40 (6 years ago) Permalink

Edd Hurt on the rolling country thread:

since I'm here, I thought I'd mention that the Mary Weiss record is a dog, retro, and the songs and the singing just lie there inert. terrible production values. she looks good, though, I mean she's nearly 60 and she don't look a day over 42, and she sounds exactly like Joey Ramone in drag.

(Unfortunately I agree, though I think with work or Auto-Tune or the right producer (Luke? Scott?) Mary Weiss could turn her current voice into something interesting, since I don't dislike the timbre.)

― Frank Kogan, Tuesday, 3 April 2007 18:52 (6 years ago) Permalink

According to Mediabase, over the last seven days Gym Class Heroes' "Cupid's Chokehold" is the most played song on Top 40 radio; Pink's "U + Ur Hand" is up to 10 and its spins are still rising strong; Avril's "Girlfriend" is the second-biggest gainer and is up to 14, though it's still getting fewer than half the spins of "Cupid's Chokehold." Biggest riser is Maroon 5's "Makes Me Wonder" which jumped from nowhere to 34th.

― Frank Kogan, Tuesday, 3 April 2007 19:21 (6 years ago) Permalink

One of the local top 40 stations here in Atlanta plays "Cupid's Chokehold" constantly. I overheard a group of returning Spring Break high school kids talking about it on my plane flight back from Chicago last night. They were big fans. I am not a big fan.

― Greg Fanoe, Tuesday, 3 April 2007 20:06 (6 years ago) Permalink

*Interesting that it does seem to be all around teen girls. I never noticed anyone suggesting I was a perv for liking the teen Arctic Monkey guys

As much as I'd like to jump on this, I don't know if it's that they are girls so much as you are a boy, which matters in two ways: (1) nobody thinks I'm a perv when I say I like Ashlee Simpson, but plenty of people think I'm a perv when I say I like "MMMBop,"
and (2) when it comes to liking teenpop, my male friends are accused of pervery far more often than I am, even though my conversations are blatantly more perverted than theirs.

― Nia, Tuesday, 3 April 2007 20:58 (6 years ago) Permalink

greg u live in atlanta too? i have been listening to a shitload of radio for the past week since the hard drive with my mp3s broke, so i've heard a lot of that track (i think on it's the one with the hook from "breakfast in america", right? i basically hate it, except for the chorus. it's funny because when i first herd it i thought it was some kind of n'sync-ish black eyed peas/quasi-r&b thing like maybe jc chasez was trying 2 make a comeback, so i wz surprised to find out the singer was the fallout boy dude. he doesnt sound at all like the dude from "sugar we're goin down." i like that a lot btw, i would prob be into pop rock a lot moar if it got away from that singing style imo

― cankles, Tuesday, 3 April 2007 22:36 (6 years ago) Permalink

oops i meant 2 say '(i think on Q100)'

― cankles, Tuesday, 3 April 2007 22:36 (6 years ago) Permalink

This is a "paraphrase" of a Kelly Clarkson journal entry, according to the KC fanboard I occasionally visit:

"I know you've been waiting a while for this, so I'm thrilled to announce my new single from "My December" will be released to airwaves April 11th! It's called 'Never Again' and I'm so excited and I can't wait for you to hear it! I know this has been torture for you, waiting, and I hope you like the album. The album is the story of my life (intense, up and down). This is my favorite album I've done so far. It has some killer rock songs ,and some fun soul tracks, and a few slower, intimate songs, and it's all me! The album will be dropping this Summer (finally), and I'll be touring this summer too. I'm having a great day and as you can tell, I'm so excited today! THANK YOU FOR BEING PATIENT!!! WOOHOO!!!"

― Greg Fanoe, Wednesday, 4 April 2007 16:14 (6 years ago) Permalink

people think I'm a perv when I say I like "MMMBop," <

Really???

― dabug, Thursday, 5 April 2007 00:58 (6 years ago) Permalink

I don't know about anybody else, but the "perv" factor is still a big concern for me in my love of teenpop. At the airport on Sunday, I wanted to buy TEEN magazine to read on the plane, as it featured an interesting article about teen music/emo/whatever. Anyways, it was the perv factor that prevented me from buying it. Though when it comes to buying and listening to acutal music I'm pretty much inured to the perv factor (i.e. a year ago I was nervous to buy the Kelly Clarkson CD, now I purchase Hilary Duff, Jordan Pruitt, whatever CD's with no worries)

― Greg Fanoe, Thursday, 5 April 2007 01:27 (6 years ago) Permalink

Well, one thing that's interesting about this is that most of the artists we're talking about here are about my age. Like, it's OK if I actually wanted to date Ashlee Simpson.

I don't think "mainstream" anything is really that much of an issue, actually. Kids and young teens are often used as the catch-all demographic to project the fears of adults -- basically legislating for an agentless audience, an easy way to assert power when all else fails. Interesting to dig deeper in some of these issues, say, film censorship in the US, and figure out that, e.g., the censoring system is pretty much a front for Hollywood's lobbying groups and overseas negotiations about non-sensastionalistic BORING but actually much more important things like lightening quotas on Hollywood films abroad and encouraging copyright restrictions/enforcement.

Most criticism of teenpop and/or GROWN MEN (AND WOMEN!) who listen to it is doing something similar, using shrill non-issues so as not to have to confront the actual issues. Whatever they are. There's a bunch of em I'm sure, paperback psychology included. Except most people aren't consciously doing it like the MPAA, so they end up saying just about anything with no real consequence since no one holds them to what they're saying. Paris syndrome.

The Ashlee thing is waaaaay more insidious, though, because it presents an impossible position that no one could actually hold: you cannot think that Ashlee is both knocked unfairly and that it's "disheartening" that she's working with "somebody like" Robert Smith. It's shameless base-covering despite the impossibility of covering both bases (without saying something totally idiotic), which makes me wonder which "base" is being covered with the "more talented than given credit for" bit. I wouldn't be surprised if it comes from Ashlee mentions in places like the Voice and Paste (both by Frank), a sort of creeping suggestion -- coming largely from people who, if they don't post on the thread already, should be -- filtering its way into the let's-please-everyone-and-shit-on-em-too style that's so annoying and frustrating and pervasive, esp. when it comes to "coverage." (Maybe it is about hipness...so Ashlee's not hip, but thinking Ashlee's hip is kinda hip.)

― dabug, Thursday, 5 April 2007 02:10 (6 years ago) Permalink

Nia, aren't Hanson older than you?

― Frank Kogan, Thursday, 5 April 2007 06:54 (6 years ago) Permalink

I think for Pitchfork "mainstream" is probably a big issue. My guess is that the guy who wrote the piece would have been plenty disturbed if Robert Smith were working with Mariah Carey or Phil Collins.

― Frank Kogan, Thursday, 5 April 2007 07:02 (6 years ago) Permalink

You know, we're either going to talk about the piece or we're not, and I guess we are talking about it, so here it is. It's by a fellow, Paul Thompson, who's previously unknown to me. On the evidence of this piece he's someone who shouldn't be getting printed, but maybe he's young and will grow out of this sort of writing. And there's really scads of stuff equally bad or worse out there.

Ashlee Simpson Working With Robert Smith?!?!

I've been looking so long at these pieces of me that I almost believe that they're real

Plasticine-faced pop auteur and slept-on sibling Ashlee Simpson deserves a little credit; most prefab sprouts would've given up the ghost-vocals after an ill-timed late-night hoedown like hers. But Ash (or, more likely, Papa Joe) don't take no mess, and she's soldiered on, issuing the tough-as-nails I Am Me, taking a role in a London stage-production of Chicago, and, now, as EW.com reports, announcing a truly-bizarre but potentially cred-boosting list of contributors for her upcoming third album.

John Legend, Timbaland, the unfamous guy from the Neptunes, the dude from Keane that didn't go to rehab, perpetual should've been Kenna: the only eyebrow Ashlee's amassed agenda of collaborators raises is the absence of total whore Scott Storch (maybe Timmy shooed him off).

But when you add Robert Smith--yes, that Robert Smith, the one from the Cure/that poster in your bedroom from when you were 15--into the fray, you've tipped the scales of incredulousness. Is this an April Fool's joke, Entertainment Weekly?!

Maybe it's not so surprising after all; you may recall that Blink-182's self-titled 2003 effort featured a guest vocal from Mr. Smith (supposedly a longtime fan), or that the gents from South Park managed to coerce the seemingly-humorless Smith into slaying Mecha-Streisand in an early episode. But Ashlee Simpson-- more talented than she's often portrayed for sure, but still the co-author of "you make me wanna la-la"-- pairing with scene hero Robert Smith is perplexing at best, disheartening at worst. What results from the link-up remains to be seen, but something tells us we're still better off placing our wagers on Mike Watt and Kelly Clarkson.

In more pedestrian Smith news, the Cure will headline Japan's Fuji Rock Festival, going down July 27-29. And a note on their website hints at a few tentatively-scheduled spots: Hong Kong July 30, Singapore August 1, and a stop in Australia without a date attached.

Posted by Paul Thompson in album, collaboration, wtf on Mon: 04-02-07: 11:50 AM CDT | Permalink

― Frank Kogan, Thursday, 5 April 2007 07:11 (6 years ago) Permalink

its the fucking devils work. There is not a teenpop musician in this day and age who hasn't been prefabricated.

― wesley useche, Thursday, 5 April 2007 07:24 (6 years ago) Permalink

At the airport on Sunday, I wanted to buy TEEN magazine to read on the plane, as it featured an interesting article about teen music/emo/whatever. Anyways, it was the perv factor that prevented me from buying it.

It's a few years ago now, but when I was really into uk teenpop I used to buy Smash Hits, CD:UK, magazines pretty regularly, and I never really felt like a perv. Don't remember getting odd looks. Maybe now I'm a bit older it would stand out more, or maybe I'd just be more aware of it? But it's not really an issue since I haven't seen a magazine of that type I'd want to buy recently, UK pop being in a hole still, or rather the UK media relationship to pop maybe being in a hole. Interesting to see that this came up on this thread, since you guys regularly get lazy and stupid slurs along these lines elsewhere on the board. Which means you must be doing something right! Anyway if I get a chance to listen to some of this stuff properly I'll come back and post.

― byebyepride, Thursday, 5 April 2007 07:25 (6 years ago) Permalink

I won't go over everything wrong with this, since you can see it for yourself. Several things jump out at me: (1) It's apparently disheartening to this guy that Ashlee's working with Smith but not disheartening to him that she's working with Timbaland, who's merely the most important man in English-language popular music over the last decade. (2) He doesn't say why it's disheartening. We're supposed to assume it is without his having to tell us why. (3) He doesn't think Shanks and DioGuardi are worth any cred. (I wonder if he knows who they are.) (3) He calls Storch a whore, presumably because he thinks that no one could have any legitimate reasons for working with Paris, Brooke, JoJo, Kelis, Jessica, etc. (Personally, I think Storch's 2006 was even better than Timbaland's, and that maybe one of the reasons Storch's music sounds so good is that he picks collaborators who he thinks can make it sound good.) (4) He doesn't give any reason why "You make me wanna la la" is a bad line; he just presents it as self-evidently bad (don't myself see how it's so different on its face from "She loves you yeah yeah yeah," which is a crucial line in what I think is John Lennon's best lyric). (5) He suggests that it's Papa Joe who is the real decisionmaker.

Points one through four just show that this guy is another conventional-minded mediocrity who got himself a journalism gig. Dog bites man; stop the presses. But point five is kind of interesting, because it shows him trying to maneuver through a couple of attitudes towards the mainstream pop world that ought to be incompatible: First, that it's music made by and for stupid people; and second, that smart, shrewd, people are pulling the strings. (At least that's what I read into this piece. Don't see that there's another way to read it.) And somehow Paul Thompson doesn't feel any dissonance in putting one Simpson in the role of shrewdie and the other in the role of tool.

― Frank Kogan, Thursday, 5 April 2007 07:50 (6 years ago) Permalink

(That was a x-post; was referring to Paul Thompson's piece, not Alex's post.)

― Frank Kogan, Thursday, 5 April 2007 07:51 (6 years ago) Permalink

I am a fan of this thread and the whole teen pop thread crew but buying Teen magazine etc is really a bit far gone

― A B C, Thursday, 5 April 2007 08:01 (6 years ago) Permalink

being gay is handy for sidestepping the whole perv thing, though it always amazes me when the accusations come from people who don't stint on the creepiness when it comes to indie-friendly girls or women, from smoosh to cat power and meg white

that poster in your bedroom from when you were 15

haha dude is old and hasn't got over it. i have only heard one original cure song btw (and that was on the diplo fabric mix of all things)

― lex pretend, Thursday, 5 April 2007 08:31 (6 years ago) Permalink

i don't know if people found it creepy when i was all like "mmm twink r'n'b" about chris brown, or when i talk about mcfly (whose appeal is entirely because two of them are hott, not beause of their music), though. i tend not to like too much teenpop by boys. well, there's not a great deal OF it, and what there is, is very...teenage boyish, ie either dumb toilet humour or emo whinings, both of which kind of repulse me.

― lex pretend, Thursday, 5 April 2007 08:33 (6 years ago) Permalink

I'll freely admit that loads of what I like about music is ALSO (i.e. not ALWAYS, and never ALL) about sex, or desire, or what Freudians call 'transference' (when you project a particular desire onto your analyst, and this becomes part of the therapeutic process, and yes that makes music my analyst, rather than the other way round). And I think people thought it was odd that I had a picture of Billy Piper c. 'Because We Want To' up on my wall for ages when I was working on my phd, but they probably thought I was weird anyway. But I don't know if that helps. Kelly Clarkson I definitely think is hot but JoJo not -- maybe something is policing all this in my head.

― byebyepride, Thursday, 5 April 2007 09:14 (6 years ago) Permalink

i think the thing policing that is jojo's unattractive blocky lego head!

― lex pretend, Thursday, 5 April 2007 09:24 (6 years ago) Permalink

My understanding of the Pitchfork news section is that it was a kind of 'pay yer dues' area for people who wanted to graduate to proper Pfork reviews. I don't know if it still works that way. My impression of the Ashlee/Robert Smith piece is of someone working very hard to get a particular style right and not even thinking about thinking through the content.

I really hate everything I've heard by the Cure since the 80s ended so I did indeed think AS working with RS was a WTF deal, but only because I expected her to have more sense.

― Groke, Thursday, 5 April 2007 09:30 (6 years ago) Permalink

The Pfork piece also neatly illustrates the need fans have (not just indie or non-mainstream fans) to believe or assume that the musicians they admire think in the same compartments they do.

― Groke, Thursday, 5 April 2007 09:35 (6 years ago) Permalink

The last album by the Cure is THE SINGLE WORST CD I HAVE EVER HEARD, now I think about it. Except inevitably typing that has made me want to hear it. I nearly broke up with C after she insisted on playing it in the house, like 3 times or something. Fair enough she had paid money for it, but still.

― byebyepride, Thursday, 5 April 2007 11:24 (6 years ago) Permalink

I am a fan of this thread and the whole teen pop thread crew but buying Teen magazine etc is really a bit far gone

I thought so too, which is why I didn't buy it. But I'm not sure why I thought it was more far gone than anything else I do.

― Greg Fanoe, Thursday, 5 April 2007 13:25 (6 years ago) Permalink

Nia, aren't Hanson older than you?

Isaac is, and Taylor technically (by one month), but Zac is two years younger. I don't get the same reaction if I talk about their "grown-up" albums.

― Nia, Thursday, 5 April 2007 14:39 (6 years ago) Permalink

i find the idea of timbaland working with ashlee far more disheartening, but interestingly so. disheartening because 1) i have finally 'got' ashlee's genius, and in my mind it goes in a completely different and possibly mutually exclusive direction to timbaland's (i find even the original of 'l.o.v.e' horribly clumsy and gauche, let alone the missy remix), and 2) timba himself is rather slappable currently. interesting because, despite all of that, ashlee and timba are still great people.

― lex pretend, Thursday, 5 April 2007 15:39 (6 years ago) Permalink

[url=[Removed Illegal Link] Sugar Shock column at Stylus[/url

― William Bloody Swygart, Thursday, 5 April 2007 17:36 (6 years ago) Permalink

Fuck's sakes: http://stylusmagazine.com/articles/pop_playground/sugar-shock-009-its-a-hair-thing.htm is Dave Moore's latest edition of Sugar Shock at Stylus, quite good piece about the role of hair in modern teenpop. Misses out on its usage in the video for 'Girlfriend', though, which is a bit of a surprise.

― William Bloody Swygart, Thursday, 5 April 2007 17:37 (6 years ago) Permalink

Yeah, final version needed a haircut (yuk) as it was, but otherwise I woulda used Avril as an example of brunette to blonde implications, which seems to be rarer than the other way around in teenpop (though maybe Britney did this? But as I say, it is, or maybe was, different with Britney, the hair color didn't carry so much symbolic baggage for her). Funny that Avril does the opposite of Hilary, she's out to prove she's fun. Which isn't all that fun, kind of annoying really (just heard from Jimmy Draper that there's a LOT of "Girlfriend"ish material on the new one, so this is probably about as much of an overarching album/personality statement as Hilary).

― dabug, Thursday, 5 April 2007 21:54 (6 years ago) Permalink

and how about the redheaded title character in that video!?

lindsay's red-to-blonde, of course - not sure what to make of that (xcept i like her way more as red) - who else is redhead teenpop that i'm not thinking of?

― rossoflove, Friday, 6 April 2007 02:07 (6 years ago) Permalink

okay, so i came home from work the other day, intending to write a long-in-the-works blog post about recent indie (which should finally be posted later tonight - it includes a podcast that might serve as a useful roundup of some recent stuff in that vein for those who were expressing curiosity upthread) and got sidetracked in an extended and wide-ranging (mostly teen-)pop conversation with my roommate. he'd just returned from orlando, where he was hanging out with his nephews, aged 8 and 10, who knew all the words to all the current chart hits (he also turned them on to "neon bible" and soon they were annoying their parents with that too.)

this inspired him to look up the current billboard hits and itunes most downloaded lists - it was interesting for me to approach this stuff from the perspective of what's actually hitting the charts (which i'm usually oblivious to unless you guys mention it here), instead of just checking out and consuming the music as i encounter it on my own - and we spent a good while watching videos on mtv.com (so much better than youtube - quality-wise!)

for a long time we were debating the merits of "girlfriend" - he didn't like it, and complained about avril's new style (he might have even said something about her "selling out," which i just think is funny although it almost makes sense) and not liking the style of the track (the vocal processing in particular) - though i played him some skye (esp. "hypocrite"), which he liked a lot. (he said it made him like the avril less to know it was ripping off her style.) but i think after a while we realized that what really turned him off from the song was the fact that he'd first been exposed to it through the video.

which i have to say is understandable - the vid is appropriately day-glo trashy, but it sort of just makes avril seem really mean. whereas the song itself doesn't really have that much to say about the girlfriend (it writes her off with a couple lines - she's like, so whatever - and goes on to talk about avril herself almost exclusively - we don't even learn much of anything about the boyfriend.) the video, on the other hand, makes it seem like the song is all about vindictively degrading av's competitor. (and yes, her bitchiness is clearly part of the point. but we're sensitive guys in this apartment, and we like our pop stars to behave like decent, respectful individuals. or something.)

― rossoflove, Friday, 6 April 2007 02:19 (6 years ago) Permalink

Just read Freakonomics, which was disappointing in a whole lot of ways, main one being that it didn't actually detail the methods of statistical analysis that were used, so there was nothing about the process of discovery, just the results. But at the end it did have a whole section on trends in children's first names. Said that it made no difference one way or another to a person's success or failure in life whether he was given an apparently appropriate or apparently inappropriate name. But names were something of a social marker, so you could predict some things on the basis of a person's name (not because the name had an effect, but because the parents' socioeconomic position had an effect, and child names and parent socioeconomic position were correlated). Anyway, the authors also said that fashions in names were not celebrity driven - that Shirley Temple and Britney Spears were examples of trends, not causes of them. There was a name that made one of their lists (The Twenty "Whitest" Boy Names, the information being gathered in California a couple of years ago) that contradicts this, however, though they drew no attention to it: Dylan. There's simply no way that that name is not celebrity driven at the start.

But anyway, here's a list that I enjoyed:

THE TWENTY "BLACKEST" GIRL NAMES:

1. Imani
2. Ebony
3. Shanice
4. Aaliyah
5. Precious
6. Nia
7. Deja
8. Diamond
9. Asia
10. Aliyah
11. Jada
12. Tierra
13. Tiara
14. Kiara
15. Jazmine
16. Jasmin
17. Jazmin
18. Jasmine
19. Alexus
20. Raven

― Frank Kogan, Friday, 6 April 2007 04:32 (6 years ago) Permalink

"Spelled like Dylan Thomas?" "No, like Bob Dylan."

― da croupier, Friday, 6 April 2007 04:45 (6 years ago) Permalink

Lex, I love "L.O.V.E." - the chorus anyway - but I think it's generally beside the point in relation to what I love about Ashlee. And I agree that the Missy remix is a botch. And I too have trepidation about Ashlee working with Timbo since I'd hate her to try and be either an r&b bitch or an r&b vixen. The one and only Ashlee song that I'd actually say I dislike is a Japan-only track called "Get Nasty" which is just grating: "Get nasty, ah ah, get nasty aww." But another Japan-only track, "Fall In Love With Me," is wonderfully warm and sweet, and it's a gentle reggae track whose only flaw is that the rhythm accompaniment doesn't have enough of a dance to it. And I love Ashlee's singing on "Burnin' Up," which is a dub-r&b sendup, humorous but also having a subtly ambitious vocal line that's like a poppified variant of "Habañera" from Carmen. Again, the main drawback is clumsiness in the accompaniment. So this is something Timbaland could do, add some motion, if only he'd have the good sense to turn off his trademark weirdness and keep his mouth away from the microphone. (In Timbaland's "Give It To Me" Nelly Furtado delivers her most fetching vocals ever, and the atmosphere is both inventive and melancholy. But Timbo's own vocals are an ugly pain, and I wish someone would create a mix that erases them.)

― Frank Kogan, Friday, 6 April 2007 05:10 (6 years ago) Permalink

In the late '80s and early '90s the Australian Smash Hits used to pay me $100 a month to buy and send them teen magazines - Bop and Tiger Beat and Hit Parader etc. No one gave me a second glance when I bought them. I can imagine that reading those magazines on a plane might confuse the passenger next to me, however.

― Frank Kogan, Friday, 6 April 2007 05:23 (6 years ago) Permalink

Also, are the lyrics actually saying she's as serious as gravy? Is gravy really serious?

gravy is not serious. appropriate adjectives to use in similes with "gravy": heavy, thick, tasty, and good. however, "crazy" is not very serious either. "cancer" is serious, as we learned from rakim (who compared it to "a question" - and then didn't even rhyme it with answer, that's how good a rapper he was!) however, "cancer" doesn't rhyme with "babies." you know what disease does though? "rabies." now that's serious!

― rossoflove, Friday, 6 April 2007 05:29 (6 years ago) Permalink

Got the Jordan Pruitt CD from the library and I'm loving every second of it. I was saying upthread that the songs might not be up to her voice; that's even less of a concern to me now than it was then, since the songs are there to serve the voice rather than vice versa, and the arrangements give her voice the space it needs. The r&b songs seemed a bit wrong when I heard them on her MySpace. Now they sound fine. "We Are Family" sounds fine. She sounds good doing aches, she sounds good doing glides, she sounds good rooting her phrasing in the words, she sounds good scatting, she sounds good singing plain, she sounds good doing melisma. She doesn't overdo anything; it all sounds coherent, never forced. I'm not really conveying what it's like. Don't know how. She's 15 and is one of the most skilled singers in the world. That's ridiculous.

― Frank Kogan, Friday, 6 April 2007 06:03 (6 years ago) Permalink

Frank, I'm still loving the Jordan Pruitt CD too. In fact, now I can say that it almost definitely will make my top 10 of the year. But I still have the same problem, which is that I love the singing and the lyrics but find myself wishing the songs had stronger hooks.

OK, here's my attempt to convey what it's like: The joyful songs make me wanna jump up and down and the sad songs make me wanna cry. It runs an entire range of emotions in the lyrics and her singing is absolutely perfect, both in terms of sounding beautiful and in terms of interpretation and performance. She can sell drama and sell sadness and sell joy. Her voice sounds amazing and it still sounds convincingly "teen". She can inject a heartbreaking twang ("OLI"), or a forceful smash ("No Ordinary Girl") or a joyful lilt ("Jump to the Rhythm"). She makes it look easy. Her vocal performance on "Outside Looking In" was my favorite vocal performance of 2006. And it doesn't even stand out as particularly great on the album, which is crazy.

The lyrics are overdramatic and messy and not at all deep and literary and intellectual like Ashlee's are. They are conversational and teenage and just spot on. They could have just been ripped straight from a teenager's diary. It manages to be confessional, but there's only 2 breakup songs! There's a pervasive feeling of "me against the world". It's fairly thematically consistent, but mostly a big ball of contradictions and messes. (I guess I'm the only person who loves the lyrics though. Me against the world!)

If this album had better hooks to the songs it would be my favorite album since Breakway, at least. As it stands now it will be in my top 10 but most likely not number one.

Well that's my attempt.

― Greg Fanoe, Friday, 6 April 2007 12:16 (6 years ago) Permalink

And I just wanna say that I still really expect a stone cold confessional classic in Pruitt's future, the album that this almost is.

― Greg Fanoe, Friday, 6 April 2007 12:19 (6 years ago) Permalink

A scan of an amusing survey filled out by Carrie Underwood for Cosmo:

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/Mauraks310/cosmopage3.png

― Greg Fanoe, Friday, 6 April 2007 13:28 (6 years ago) Permalink

I need to listen to Jordan's CD (haven't heard it yet), but anyone who hasn't heard Kristy Frank should check out her CD from last year. Forget the name of the CD, but it's excellent and she has a great voice. Seems more bubblerock than Jordan's stuff I've heard, but she's got big R&B chops.

― dabug, Friday, 6 April 2007 19:26 (6 years ago) Permalink

(CD's called Freedom, Myspace is [url=[Removed Illegal Link], little bit of twang to her voice, too)

― dabug, Friday, 6 April 2007 19:28 (6 years ago) Permalink

grrrr http://myspace.com/kristyfranks

― dabug, Friday, 6 April 2007 19:28 (6 years ago) Permalink

(and when I say big R&B chops, I don't mean she sounds R&B at all. Uh, big ballad chops? What's the non-r&b equivalent chopwise?)

― dabug, Friday, 6 April 2007 19:29 (6 years ago) Permalink

Why is the myspace Kristy Franks when her name is Kristy Frank?

― Greg Fanoe, Friday, 6 April 2007 19:37 (6 years ago) Permalink

Yeah, that's really weird.

― dabug, Friday, 6 April 2007 20:02 (6 years ago) Permalink

Skye w/ Rancid, "Who Would've Thought" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cC70bAPl4Bg...seems like it's a little low for her, fun song tho.

― dabug, Friday, 6 April 2007 20:12 (6 years ago) Permalink

I xeroxed the interview Cosmo did with Ashlee in late '05; quiz was shorter than the Carrie but more revealing ("I've been in love: a. Once. Ryan!" [This was after they'd broken up.] "The three most important things in my purse are: American Express Card, Lip Gloss, Sunglasses" [though I will never again be able to think about Lip Gloss without remembering Hazel's saying over in Jukebox "its only purpose being to make your face sticky and give you the appearance of having had some terrible glass-blowing accident"]) Cosmo interviews remind me of what Lester Bangs once said about Eric Burdon; they're irrefutably short. But she got some good lines in: "Q: What's a red flag for you with guys? A: When he has Us Weekly at his house. Q: What body part are you happiest with? A: My boobs. I have amazing boobs. I do. I know it."

― Frank Kogan, Friday, 6 April 2007 21:02 (6 years ago) Permalink

I wish someone would create a mix that erases them

rossoflove did this very thing on his '06 mixtape (sort of...he basically just cuts it off after Nelly).

The part w/ Nelly: http://www.snapdrive.net/files/169338/OhSixFirstHalf.mp3

The part w/o Nelly: http://www.snapdrive.net/files/169338/OhSixSecondHalf.mp3

― dabug, Friday, 6 April 2007 21:12 (6 years ago) Permalink

(woop, Timbo's still on it a little. But he fades out into Spank Rock.)

― dabug, Friday, 6 April 2007 21:23 (6 years ago) Permalink

Ignore this post (I'm just checking to see if Stevie Nicks is like a cat in the dark or if she is the darkness< > ' " ` ! { }) (actually, testing to see what will cause an Illegal Link).

― Frank Kogan, Friday, 6 April 2007 23:39 (6 years ago) Permalink

I'm listening to Jordan Pruitt's "We Are Family." I assume she knows nothing of the song's gay subtext, so the subtext and the sadness of AIDS isn't the reason there's a hint of melancholy in the way her voice sometimes descends and breaks. That's just how she sings. And the deep pounds from the drums are there because Keith Thomas felt that deep pounds made sense in relation to the overall sound, I assume. But the pounds and breaks are there, so I go to the track more for something deep and haunting than for the celebration. Or for the celebration of something deep and haunting.

(*I'm surmising based on her association with Robin Scoffield and the manner of her tribute to God in the album credits that Jordan is an evangelical Christian, though I'm making a lot of not-necessarily correct assumptions, not just about her but about what her being evangelical would mean in regard to her attitude towards gayness [actually, my guess is that rank-and-file evangelicals are more conflicted about gays and gay rights than their antigay spokesmen are, and another guess is that the evangelical movement will be less unified on this issue in the next few years than it's been in the past].)

― Frank Kogan, Saturday, 7 April 2007 00:44 (6 years ago) Permalink

Excellent article about the pre-production through post-production stages (and more generally a tween-media think piece) in this weekend's NYT Magazine. It's not online yet, but I'll link it when it is...it really sidesteps almost all of the condescending/cynical approaches that ruined a lot of HSM coverage (probably because Nick is like the "benevolent conglomerate" to Disney's Death Star).

― dabug, Saturday, 7 April 2007 15:55 (6 years ago) Permalink

*pre through post-production of a new Nick sitcom.

― dabug, Saturday, 7 April 2007 16:02 (6 years ago) Permalink

Biggest teenpop news of the weekend: Tarantino namedrops Lindsay Lohan in his section of new exploitation double-feature Grindhouse. This is big big big big. If she's not in talks to do one of his movies within the year, I'll eat somebody's hat (I don't own any hats).

― dabug, Saturday, 7 April 2007 19:12 (6 years ago) Permalink

So anybody have any thoughts on "Nobody's Perfect" or "Make Some Noise"? I like them both OK but find them both comparatively mediocre to the best songs from Hannah's album.

― Greg Fanoe, Saturday, 7 April 2007 19:53 (6 years ago) Permalink

via email:

Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2007 22:14:00 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Mike Saunders"
Subject: anyone else been using the BUBBLEGUM DANCE site (eurodance a la AQUA etc) that went up this winter? 60+ acts already on there

http://www.bubblegumdancer.com/index.htm

i didn't see a single mention of this site on ILM (a couple weeks ago when i checked)
it's new, and went up maybe 3, 4 months ago (late 2006) put up by a NEW ZEALAND poppy-eurodance (ie, Aqua, Toy-box) fan.

who at long last and finally gave the far-left-wing-of-Eurodance (which always begrudgingly let Aqua/etc into the far fringe end of their dumb same-4-damn-chords-forever genre, included the style on their web sites/reviews/links etc) a proper name --

BUBBLEGUM DANCE

the site is like whoa

i stumbled across it when i was trudging through the ILM "europop" laundry list (several years old now) thread (looking up/auditing it song by song with YouTube...which takes 10 mintues/song to load on my fucking dial-up! soon to be replaced by DSL/AT&T when i finally buy a new hard drive with proper memory space required to drive a DSL)

and hit one great song with
Kim Lian's #1 2003 Dutch hit
TEENAGE SUPERSTAR
checked the bio on Wikipedia
then wandered into the full page by the guy who'd put up the song's video
(since 86'd by the major label(s), who seem to do their "Youtube purges" even
in Europe! jeez)
and that led me to the wonderfully daft/catchy

DJUMBO "Undercover"
ok, i checked THEIR Wikipedia bio and
but did it through Google, which is a good habit to have because then you notice the 2 or 3 links/lookups below the top Wikipedia google page you're going to

annnd there was the BUBBLEGUM DANCER site
just days later it disappeared, and its "cached" pages started to get mulched when Google was proceding into updating the same
no explanation given on the sites "message board"

but a few days ago it came back up!

the new world musical order has now officially begun

― xhuxk, Saturday, 7 April 2007 19:54 (6 years ago) Permalink

whoa that 'Rhiannon' video is incredible

also I looked up that beauteous little woman who was in the tim armstrong video someone posted. i'd bang her till her freckles fell off. she's legal, right?

― cankles, Saturday, 7 April 2007 19:55 (6 years ago) Permalink

"Teenage Superstar" in English by the original Dutch girl, Kim-Lian

"Teenage Superstar" in Spanish by Belinda

"Teenage Superstar" in Czech by Ewa Farner

― Frank Kogan, Saturday, 7 April 2007 20:43 (6 years ago) Permalink

The Pruitt record is more cohesive, driven by a greater singer/talent, and has more expressive lyrics, but it's just not the powerhouse of hooks that the Tisdale record is. Both are great, but Tisdale's is still the 2007 frontrunner for me.

― Matt Armstrong, Saturday, 7 April 2007 22:15 (6 years ago) Permalink

Kim Lian's excellent "In Vain" got unfairly dismissed in the Jukebox back in the olden pre-blog days. http://youtube.com/watch?v=DoZZoLli8Ec

― dabug, Sunday, 8 April 2007 01:47 (6 years ago) Permalink

Matt, I may feel the way you do - at least that the best of the Tisdale is thrilling me in a way that the Pruitt isn't, though the worst of the Tisdale pales out in a way that the Pruitt doesn't, either.

Btw, though I worry that today's kiddie dance/r&b is generally more boring than the teen confessional stuff it seems to be displacing, the Pruitt album demonstrates that r&b and teen confessional are hardly incompatible.

― Frank Kogan, Sunday, 8 April 2007 05:22 (6 years ago) Permalink

whoa that 'Rhiannon' video is incredible

Like Grace Slick fronting the Yardbirds or the Velvets, but better.

― Frank Kogan, Monday, 9 April 2007 03:51 (6 years ago) Permalink

I'm disappointed by the new Hilary. The move to dance doesn't bother me conceptually, but the whole thing feels very lifeless, and the songwriting just isn't there. It's not bad by any means, and I enjoy it, but it's clearly my least favorite of her albums. After listening to it today, I listened to Metamorphosis, and was reminded of how strong that record is from start to finish: vital, loud, invigorating.

― Matt Armstrong, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 17:50 (6 years ago) Permalink

Three new songs up on Hope Partlow's MySpace page; accompanying herself on acoustic, overdubbing harmonies. Her singing is as strong and effortless as ever; I'd call the style singer-songwriter pop (whatever I mean by that). "Try" is about trying to break through to some guy she likes (an ex? a partner in a relationship that isn't working?); one can also read it as a metaphor for trying to break through in her singing career. [For newcomers to the teenpop and country threads, Partlow is a teenager with a wide vocal range and with breeze in her singing; had an album out on Virgin that didn't sell big, and shortly after it came out the fellow who'd signed her (I don't remember: was he the president of the company?) lost his job, and she was dropped by the label.] "Here To Stay" could be heard as a kissoff to an ex - "You don't know about, you don't care about, anything about me/So get out of my life, out of my way, I don't care what you say/I been losing this fight day after day, I'm now back in town, 'cause baby I'm here to stay" - but actually this one sounds as if it really is directed at the record biz. "When I signed up to play your little game/I never had expected it would turn out quite this way/You dresssed me up pretty, I was hangin' by the strings/Waiting waiting waiting for the next big thing/You don't know about, you don't care about..." My favorite of the three, "A Day In My Life," has a cabaret-style melody in the verse (that is, harkens back to '40s jazz pop) but sounds looser and less mannered than that implies; then the chorus is a rock 'n' roll type wailer, and the instrumental break goes into minor-key strumming while she puts forth with a bunch of Cossack "heys." Words are about how varied and interesting her life is, though they're not strong on specifics. I'd rank her melodies and words a bit above serviceable, except this ranking doesn't convey her ease and appeal, the knack she has for covering a lot of ground while appearing just to glide along. Whether she ever scores big hits or not, I still don't see how she can miss as a singer. She just does it too well.

― Frank Kogan, Tuesday, 10 April 2007 22:43 (6 years ago) Permalink

hung out with some cousins, aged 8 and 5, in d.c. this weekend. lily (the 8-year old) and i listened to her copies of the ashley tisdale album and jojo's newest on the little pink boombox in her room. (actually, her mom took her copy of the tisdale album and burned her a copy with "he said she said" removed.) her cd collection also includes hilary's metamorphosis, the earlier jojo, and the soundtracks to cheetah girls 2, jump in, and (of course) high school musical soundtrack - both regular and deluxe editions (the deluxe basically has bigger packaging and a disc of instrumental/karaoke versions.) she wants to get the vanessa hudgens and corbin bleu albums (do we know anything about the latter?)

i ordered a copy of the family a copy of the second amy diamond album - which, by the way, is now available for ₤4.99 from cdwow.com, with free international shipping (!) (for those who haven't heard it, well, it was my #7 album of 2006, if that's any recommendation.)

― rossoflove, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 02:47 (6 years ago) Permalink