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TS: R.E.M.'s Murmur vs. Reckoning

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I lean towards Murmur b/c it feels like an artifact. They're both good, however.

― PB, Wednesday, 23 February 2005 22:51 (5 years ago) Permalink

Murmur (although I like Reckoning too.)

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 22:54 (5 years ago) Permalink

Reckoning probably slightly ahead, but then it's the first one I heard. The first three tracks on Reckoning are excellent, whereas you have to wait a bit for some of the best stuff on Murmur (Sitting Still, Catapult).

― The Horse of Babylon (the pirate king), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 22:58 (5 years ago) Permalink

Every six months my friends and I will drunkenly have this argument; it's another version of the Crooked Rain vs Slanted debate.

Murmur is more consistent: there aren't songs as meandering as "Camera." However the songs are punchier on Reckoning - the singles sound like radio singles.

Mad love for both.

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 22:58 (5 years ago) Permalink

Murmur
It has "Laughing" and "Perfect Circle".

― Anyone Who Can Pick Up A Frying Pan Pwns Death (AaronHz), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 23:00 (5 years ago) Permalink

Alfred has it, I think. There are few R.E.M. songs I love more than the highs of Reckoning but Murmur has this wonderful out of the swamp magical feel to it. An artefact, yes. I still don't really get where R.E.M. came from, so it feels more special.

― Alba (Alba), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 23:04 (5 years ago) Permalink

I like Camera.

― The Horse of Babylon (the pirate king), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 23:06 (5 years ago) Permalink

Murmur. More consistent more original. Cool weird lyrical fragments like "Laocoon, with two sons", "Marat's bathing," "Combien de temps." Reckoning I like a lot, but it's less dense and cryptic, sounds more like other stuff, has more obvious high and low points.

(xxpost! Alba OTM)

― Ken L (Ken L), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 23:07 (5 years ago) Permalink

My buddies & I (hardly a band) use to play all the songs off both these albums constantly with lots of zeal and little ability. I loved these albums so much I moved to Athens & worked as a dishwasher there for about 6 months. Great town.

"Letters Never Sent" may be my favorite REM track, so I have to go with "Reckoning", but "Shaking Through" is my 2nd favorite...

― theophilus jones (theophilus), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 23:08 (5 years ago) Permalink

I like the sound of Murmur a lot - I've never heard anything else quite like it. It's more solid than Reckoning, but the songs I love on Reckoning ("So. Central Rain," "Harbourcoat," "7 Chinese Bros," "Little America," "Camera") are closer to my heart than anything from Murmur except for "Pilgrimage."

― Matthew C Perpetua (inca), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 23:10 (5 years ago) Permalink

I love Pavement's version of "Camera".

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 23:10 (5 years ago) Permalink

Right now, I'm leaning towards Reckoning for "Pretty Persuasion" and "So. Central Rain". The rhythm section's better on Murmur though. I think Fables is my favourite and I don't care who knows it.

a whack of xposts Yeah, what everyone else is saying.

― sundar subramanian (sundar), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 23:12 (5 years ago) Permalink

Crooked Rain vs Slanted
I think it's more like Rocks vs. Toys In The Attic- Rocks is a better, more consistent album but Toys has more standout songs.

― Ken L (Ken L), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 23:12 (5 years ago) Permalink

(Waiting for first purist to post Chronic Town)

― Ken L (Ken L), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 23:13 (5 years ago) Permalink

Oh, gosh. 'Shaking Through' has just come on. It's so evocative of some time and place I have this sweet, vague sense of.

― Alba (Alba), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 23:14 (5 years ago) Permalink

I find it so weird connecting this to the R.E.M. that exists today, who I'm not even particularly anti, it's just, I don't know. It's odd. *sigh*.

― Alba (Alba), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 23:15 (5 years ago) Permalink

(Crooked Rain and Rocks, by the way.)

xpost Hm, you're right, there is something magical I almost don't want to admit about some of the Murmur songs. I need to be in a really wussy mood for it but you're right.

― sundar subramanian (sundar), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 23:16 (5 years ago) Permalink

What's the one that goes "I-I-I can he-ear you"? Is that "Sitting Still"?

― sundar subramanian (sundar), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 23:17 (5 years ago) Permalink

yep

― Alba (Alba), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 23:19 (5 years ago) Permalink

Yup, that's "Sitting Still."

― Matthew C Perpetua (inca), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 23:19 (5 years ago) Permalink

xpost to sundar:
I can't remember either but that's part of the fun of Murmur- you can't always tell which part is from which song has which title without looking.

multi-xpost to Alba's "R.E.M of today" comment:

Yeah, I know. I mean, "Man On The Moon" is a good song, but when I see people listening to The Best Of R.E.M: The Warner Years I think "Isn't that an oxymoron?" Except that when I think, I don't use big words like 'oxymoron.'

― Ken L (Ken L), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 23:21 (5 years ago) Permalink

I genuinely believe that R.E.M. were at their best between 1986 and 1996. Murmur, Reckoning, and Fables are wonderful, but I'll never love them as much as Green, New Adventures In Hi-Fi, Monster, or Automatic For The People.

― Matthew C Perpetua (inca), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 23:23 (5 years ago) Permalink

Wrong.

― The Horse of Babylon (the pirate king), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 23:24 (5 years ago) Permalink

Sorry, I didn't mean to start this debate, but go ahead if that's what you wanna do.

― Alba (Alba), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 23:25 (5 years ago) Permalink

Reckoning is the sentimental favorite and I'm going with it cuz I like the filler on it more than Murmur even if Reckoning is a little more trad. Kinda like Slanted & Enchanted vs. Crooked Rain, Crooked Rain in a lot of ways (I also go with Crooked there).

Both are beautiful. Psych-folk-disco! I keep meaning to through on some early R.E.M. and always forget.

― miccio (miccio), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 23:26 (5 years ago) Permalink

"Fables is my favourite and I don't care who knows it."

Yeah, I think the songwriting was still getting better there. The reason people (myself included) don't like it as much as the first two is that it doesn't sound anywhere near as good. Can you imagine Fables with a Murmur-style production?

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 23:26 (5 years ago) Permalink

actually the "psych-folk-disco" thing is more pronounced before Reckoning where the sound effects are stripped away and its more nakedly "just a band," trad.

― miccio (miccio), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 23:27 (5 years ago) Permalink

Murmur - Great
Reckoning - Great
Fables of the Reconstruction - Patchy, but has it's moments.
Life's Rich Pageant - Great.
Document - OK
Green - Twixt Ok & Great
Out of Time - more bad than good
Automatic for the People - as above
Monster - alright
post-Monster - can't be bothered

― The Horse of Babylon (the pirate king), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 23:27 (5 years ago) Permalink

one of these days I'm gonna tape over all my old REM tapes from high school. it's one of those things I just never have any desire to listen to ever again, even though I was pretty fanatical about 'em as a teenager (see also the Pogues, tho I have a much more sentimental attachment to them)

― Shakey Mo Collier, Wednesday, 23 February 2005 23:28 (5 years ago) Permalink

what is this "tape" thing you speak of?

― fact checking cuz (fcc), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 23:29 (5 years ago) Permalink

I don't have a problem with the sound on Fables. I quite like the production on "Feeling Gravity's Pull" and "Life and How To Live It" in particular. I think the problem with that album is that the song quality drops off a bit on side b, with the exception of "Good Advices."

― Matthew C Perpetua (inca), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 23:30 (5 years ago) Permalink

Babylon, seriously, revisit New Adventures In Hi-Fi.

― Matthew C Perpetua (inca), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 23:31 (5 years ago) Permalink

I'm not really an R.E.M. buff but I've just read that the original Murmur sessions were produced by Stephen Hague, who stuck loads of synths on without the band's knowledge and got fired. Did these versions ever surface?

― Alba (Alba), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 23:31 (5 years ago) Permalink

Anthony's right. The basslines on "Murmur" boogie like Bernard Edwards on occasion ("Laughing" and "Shaking Through," I'm thinking)

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 23:31 (5 years ago) Permalink

I don't have a problem with the sound on Fables either, I just don't think it's anywhere near as great as the Mitch Easter/Don Dixon production.

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 23:32 (5 years ago) Permalink

they only did one song with Hague, "Catapult," before realizing it could never work.

― miccio (miccio), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 23:32 (5 years ago) Permalink

supposedly Dixon and Easter had to de-Hague Bill Berry when recording the album proper, as 9000 re-takes had made Berry start to play like a robot.

― miccio (miccio), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 23:33 (5 years ago) Permalink

I'll defend "Hi-Fi", Matthew. Half of it would make it a great album: most of the songs thru "Be Mine."

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 23:33 (5 years ago) Permalink

B-but robots are brilliant!

― Alba (Alba), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 23:34 (5 years ago) Permalink

Side one of Hi-Fi is pretty solid.

Robots are brilliant, but Berry had a fine style of his own.

― miccio (miccio), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 23:34 (5 years ago) Permalink

There's a bass part on Radio Free Europe, the build up to the chorus, that gets me going too.

― dan. (dan.), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 23:34 (5 years ago) Permalink

Imagine if Michael Stipe had joined Electronic with Bernard Sumner and Johnny Marr.

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 23:34 (5 years ago) Permalink

oh and I'd probably take Chronic Town over Murmur. Tighter.

― miccio (miccio), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 23:36 (5 years ago) Permalink

...but the songs aren't as good.

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 23:37 (5 years ago) Permalink

fewer anthems, i'll admit. but for that psych-folk-disco sound its the uncut funk.

(I hope I'm the first person to refer to "uncut funk" in a sentence about R.E.M.).

― miccio (miccio), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 23:38 (5 years ago) Permalink

aside from some really bad review discussing "Radio Song."

― miccio (miccio), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 23:39 (5 years ago) Permalink

MCP: You don't like "Green Grow the Rushes"? I think that's possibly their best 'pretty' song. And "Auctioneer" is one of their best 'weird' songs IMO. "Feeling Gravity's Pull" may be my favourite REM song period. I actually thought Fables had a more interesting (better?) sound than the earlier albums but that might just be because I have it on CD and have the first two on vinyl.

Anthony is right about the psych-folk-disco sound and the pre-Reckoning stuff. What happened to the rhythm section after Murmur? I've wondered that for a long time.

― sundar subramanian (sundar), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 23:40 (5 years ago) Permalink

I'm kinda shocked by those of you who are dismissing the second half of Hi-Fi - the best song on the record is the final song!

― Matthew C Perpetua (inca), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 23:40 (5 years ago) Permalink

(I mean, I thought of it as Joy Division/Wire meets Byrds/Velvets rather than psych-folk-disco per se but I guess the elements add up.)

― sundar subramanian (sundar), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 23:41 (5 years ago) Permalink

they're still a good section after that, its just that they were playing bigger halls and didn't have to be on "boogie" mode.

"electrolite" is indeed good but you have to get through "so fast, so numb," "zither" and, what I might consider their worst song ever, "Low Desert," to get to it.

― miccio (miccio), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 23:42 (5 years ago) Permalink

I'm kinda shocked by those of you who are dismissing the second half of Hi-Fi - the best song on the record is the final song!

"Green Grow The Rushes" is nice song. I like all of the songs on all of the REM albums up through Hi-Fi. It's a matter of degree. It's a long way from being one of my favorite "pretty" R.E.M. songs, though.

― Matthew C Perpetua (inca), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 23:42 (5 years ago) Permalink

mike mills is way more bernard edwards than peter hook

― miccio (miccio), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 23:42 (5 years ago) Permalink

What about "Binky The Doormat," Anthony? That's the single most underrated song in their discography.

― Matthew C Perpetua (inca), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 23:44 (5 years ago) Permalink

The second half of "Document" is pretty dreadful too: lame attempts at arty arena-rock (but I'm glad Wire got mad royalties).

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 23:45 (5 years ago) Permalink

"King Of Birds" is arena rock?

― Matthew C Perpetua (inca), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 23:46 (5 years ago) Permalink

The Wire cover rules!!! Handclaps!!! I prefer it to the original.

― miccio (miccio), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 23:46 (5 years ago) Permalink

In fact, a lot of R.E.M.'s second sides post-"Pageant" are awful (Document, Green, Hi-Fi)

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 23:46 (5 years ago) Permalink

xpost:
MCP,
Do you really believe what you are saying on this thread or are you just playing chuck?

― Ken L (Ken L), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 23:47 (5 years ago) Permalink

I one played a 33 of their "strange" at 45 on my radio show years ago and said it was from the Chipmunk Post-Punk album.

I can't hate on Green cuz its the first CD I ever bought with my own money.

― miccio (miccio), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 23:48 (5 years ago) Permalink

re side 2 of Document: it's arena-rock cuz the drums are mixed high and Stipe is singing to the back rows of Dodger Stadium.

My intro to Wire was the R.E.M. cover and Elastica's mad namedropping. But Elastica was cooler about it; Justine didn't try to shout.

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 23:49 (5 years ago) Permalink

Ken, I am 100% sincere. I'm a pretty big fan, and I've been revisiting those records a lot recently. I am not fucking with you, though I do think that it's cute to see the old indie canon party line about R.E.M. trotted out every now again. It's like watching a Civil War reenactment.

― Matthew C Perpetua (inca), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 23:49 (5 years ago) Permalink

The second half of "Document" is pretty dreadful too

See, this I don't get. Maybe King of Birds, but that record is really where everything clcked for me.

― dan. (dan.), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 23:50 (5 years ago) Permalink

elvis costello thinks green's their best album!

― j blount (papa la bas), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 23:50 (5 years ago) Permalink

the moron!

― j blount (papa la bas), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 23:50 (5 years ago) Permalink

Shit. The first album I bought with my own money was Wham's "Make it Big".

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 23:50 (5 years ago) Permalink

With regard to the original question - Murmur.

I'm also a huge Hi-Fi apologist. I think it's as good as Lifes Rich Pageant or Document or - let's put it this way - you could make an album of Document's length out of it that would be just as good. Although LRP still wins for containing my favorite song of the last twenty years - "Fall On Me."

― joseph cotten (joseph cotten), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 23:50 (5 years ago) Permalink

I do think that it's cute to see the old indie canon party line about R.E.M. trotted out every now again. It's like watching a Civil War reenactment.

your take reads like my high school diary

― miccio (miccio), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 23:51 (5 years ago) Permalink

I'm really surprised to hear side b of Hi Fi dismissed, because when I listen to that record I usually just skip past the first half and start with "Departure."

― Matthew C Perpetua (inca), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 23:52 (5 years ago) Permalink

haha o dear MY FIRST (serious) KISS was to "fall on me" - ATHENS TO THE CORE BITCHES

― j blount (papa la bas), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 23:52 (5 years ago) Permalink

"Flowers of Guatamala" would be on my REM best-of. So is "I Believe."

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 23:53 (5 years ago) Permalink

Shit. The first album I bought with my own money was Wham's "Make it Big".

Hehehehe.

― The Horse of Babylon (the pirate king), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 23:54 (5 years ago) Permalink

I liked "Flowers Of Guatemala" more before I knew it was supposed to be about political killings (I just thought it was about purty flowers) but I still love it. Same with "I Believe."

Trying to judge albums that were your lifeblood in middle school can be tough.

― miccio (miccio), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 23:54 (5 years ago) Permalink

I certainly don't think they're "awful," but I agree with Alfred that Side Two on both Document and Green are comparatively weak. They both start out with the comparatively weak hits ("The One I Love" and "Orange Crush") and have some mediocre songs ("Lightnin' Hopkins," "Oddfellows Local 151," "Turn You Inside Out," "I Remember California," the untitled song...).

"Trying to judge albums that were your lifeblood in middle school can be tough."

Not in the case of these two greats (though I was in high school).

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 23:56 (5 years ago) Permalink

See, this I don't get. Maybe King of Birds, but that record is really where everything clcked for me.

That's probably my favourite song on the album!

― sundar subramanian (sundar), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 23:56 (5 years ago) Permalink

Good points all.

Even though Murmur has the hazy, kudzu quality to it, it has those two or three songs with loud scratchy guitar riffs that just kill (can't remember the names right now....). And "Talk About the Passion" is undeniable.

Also, Murmur might be my favorite album name, as album-names-that-sound-how-the-album-feels names go.

― PB, Wednesday, 23 February 2005 23:56 (5 years ago) Permalink

Yes! "Flowers" is also a damn good Velvets homage. Bill pitter-patters like Moe, and Michael/Mike harmonize like Doug and Lou.

(goes to put it on and pour more wine)

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 23:56 (5 years ago) Permalink

xpost
It sounds kind of areany is all i meant. I like it too

― dan. (dan.), Wednesday, 23 February 2005 23:58 (5 years ago) Permalink

It's kind of like asking what's better, Please Please Me or With the Beatles? Both GREBT.

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Thursday, 24 February 2005 00:00 (5 years ago) Permalink

and have some mediocre songs ("Lightnin' Hopkins," "Oddfellows Local 151," "Turn You Inside Out," "I Remember California," the untitled song...)

Wow. I couldn't possibly disagree more about that!

― Matthew C Perpetua (inca), Thursday, 24 February 2005 00:01 (5 years ago) Permalink

Bought 'em both on cassette the same day in--what?--1984, I guess. Listened to'em back to back. Preferred "Reckoning" then, and still do today.

Both are great, though.

― MV, Thursday, 24 February 2005 00:02 (5 years ago) Permalink

Well, I could disagree more if you said it was outright awful, but still. That's got to be one of the five or six loveliest songs they ever wrote!

― Matthew C Perpetua (inca), Thursday, 24 February 2005 00:03 (5 years ago) Permalink

Whoa, ILM has me thinking about REM a lot lately. This has been said above but...

Murmur = more cohesive and consistent as a whole.
Reckoning = several unassailably high peaks, plus some less engaging bits.

I'll opt for the latter as I really dig the, erm, 5 best tracks there.

And Hi-Fi and the second half of Document are mostly naff, it's true.

― Nag! Nag! Nag! (Nag! Nag! Nag!), Thursday, 24 February 2005 00:05 (5 years ago) Permalink

fewer anthems, i'll admit. but for that psych-folk-disco sound its the uncut funk.


(I hope I'm the first person to refer to "uncut funk" in a sentence about R.E.M.).
It's funny you mention this, because I revisited "Murmur" again recently and I noticed the dancier beats like the total disco beat at 115 bpm on "Pilgrimage" and the super gated reverb snare smacks on "Radio Free Europe;" somehow this passed me up in high school in the 80s. I remember reading that they started off as a dance band for parties and that Peter Buck moved the folkier sound in after a while before they recorded. Also, don't forget that they were of the same scene as Pylon (even covering a couple of their songs) who were definitely of the dissonant guitar disco ilk.

That said, while I do like all of the records pre-"Document" and a few of the records post, "Murmur" wears best for me over time. The songs and the production is much more adventurous than the later work. The dubbed ot intro to "RFE" and the synched-rhythm-pool-table on "We Walk" speak to this.

― William Selman (William Selman), Thursday, 24 February 2005 00:08 (5 years ago) Permalink

Matthew, for what it's worth, the untitled one is my favorite of the seven songs I listed. That said, I don't like it as much as I like "Shiny Happy People!"

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Thursday, 24 February 2005 00:16 (5 years ago) Permalink

Well, it's good to see someone say something nice about that song, Tim. People get pretty over the top in their dismissal of that one, including the band themselves.

― Matthew C Perpetua (inca), Thursday, 24 February 2005 00:18 (5 years ago) Permalink

Murmur

Best thing they ever did: "I Am Superman"

― Mr. Snrub, Thursday, 24 February 2005 00:18 (5 years ago) Permalink

Well, it's good to see someone say something nice about that song, Tim. People get pretty over the top in their dismissal of that one, including the band themselves

That's because it's fucking terrible.

― The Horse of Babylon (the pirate king), Thursday, 24 February 2005 00:20 (5 years ago) Permalink

"Superman" would be on my top 10 too.

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Thursday, 24 February 2005 00:20 (5 years ago) Permalink

"Shiny Happy People" is a fine song.

― miccio (miccio), Thursday, 24 February 2005 00:23 (5 years ago) Permalink

I do wish "Near Wild Heaven" had been the second single instead.

― miccio (miccio), Thursday, 24 February 2005 00:23 (5 years ago) Permalink

OTM on both counts.

― Nag! Nag! Nag! (Nag! Nag! Nag!), Thursday, 24 February 2005 00:24 (5 years ago) Permalink

I'd defend "Don't Worry Be Happy" before "Shiny Happy People"!

― sundar subramanian (sundar), Thursday, 24 February 2005 00:25 (5 years ago) Permalink

Do y'all think "Me in Honey" would've been a good single?

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Thursday, 24 February 2005 00:27 (5 years ago) Permalink

Love, love, love "Me in Honey." If "Country Feedback" had immediately preceded "Me in Honey" it would have been the best one-two sucker punch in REM's discography.

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Thursday, 24 February 2005 00:29 (5 years ago) Permalink

Oh! It does! Blame the wine.

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Thursday, 24 February 2005 00:30 (5 years ago) Permalink

haha "I Am Superman" is my fave REM song too, and it's not even theirs...

― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 24 February 2005 00:30 (5 years ago) Permalink

The guitar solo in "Flowers of Guatamala" is thet best thing Peter Buck's ever played in his life.

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Thursday, 24 February 2005 00:32 (5 years ago) Permalink

"Me In Honey" would have been weird as a single in hindsight, as it appears to be about Stipe becoming a papa.

― miccio (miccio), Thursday, 24 February 2005 00:33 (5 years ago) Permalink

Now y'all are reminding me that Out of Time is mostly great in spite of its reputation.

The best of the squillion-selling LPs, yes?

― Nag! Nag! Nag! (Nag! Nag! Nag!), Thursday, 24 February 2005 00:33 (5 years ago) Permalink

I listen to "Out of Time" far, far more than "Automatic," which I loved at the time but is now on the classic-but-meh shelf.

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Thursday, 24 February 2005 00:36 (5 years ago) Permalink

I think "Half a World Away"/"Country Feedback" IS that best one-two punch.

― sundar subramanian (sundar), Thursday, 24 February 2005 00:38 (5 years ago) Permalink

I love Out Of Time though "Radio Song," "Shiny Happy People" and "Texarkana" make for a bonkers listen. I can't even imagine what it must have been like for rational adults to hear the insanity. I was 11.

It's a shame that Bill left and Mike basically became the keyboard player. "Texarkana" implies that his solo album would be rife with bass-poppin' absurdity and passionate tales of oases and devotion.

― miccio (miccio), Thursday, 24 February 2005 00:39 (5 years ago) Permalink

And "Near Wild Heaven" would seem to suggest that he gets laid a lot.

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Thursday, 24 February 2005 00:41 (5 years ago) Permalink

One of the things I like about Around the Sun is that the other guys seem to have established basic roles. Mills is the bass player again and Ken Stringfellow is the keyboardist for the most part.

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Thursday, 24 February 2005 00:41 (5 years ago) Permalink

take his head in your hands and shake it

(x-post)

― miccio (miccio), Thursday, 24 February 2005 00:42 (5 years ago) Permalink

ok i'm afraid I may well have ruined "Near Wild Heaven" for myself

― miccio (miccio), Thursday, 24 February 2005 00:42 (5 years ago) Permalink

A lot of R.E.M. songs are written in character. Not too weird.

I agree that "Me In Honey" should've been a single - it would have been a more sensible follow up to "Shiny Happy People" than "Radio Song" (which is quite good if you tune out the KRS-One stuff) and "Near Wild Heaven" (which is a nice tune, but pretty lightweight and forgettable.)

I listened to Out Of Time start to finish for the first time in at least five years the other day, and I was kinda amazed that they thought it was anything remotely like a cohesive album at the time. It's such an oddball record. It's definitely my least favorite album of the Berry period, but it's got its moments. I was happy to reconnect with "Half A World Away" in particular.

― Matthew C Perpetua (inca), Thursday, 24 February 2005 00:43 (5 years ago) Permalink

Hey, did anyone read Sasha's recent New Yorker piece, in which he claimed that REM have recovered their live prowess?

(although heclaims Bowie has too, and the DVD I just saw proves just the opposite).

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Thursday, 24 February 2005 00:44 (5 years ago) Permalink

Reclaimed it? Did he see them in '99? In '03?

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Thursday, 24 February 2005 00:46 (5 years ago) Permalink

R.E.M. may be at a low ebb in the past few years, but they are still a kick ass live act. I've seen them on every tour since Up, and they were stellar each time. That "greatest hits" show at Madison Square Garden in 03 was fantastic.

― Matthew C Perpetua (inca), Thursday, 24 February 2005 00:49 (5 years ago) Permalink

OTM (except for the bit about them being at a low ebb)

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Thursday, 24 February 2005 00:50 (5 years ago) Permalink

I use the chords to "Country Feedback" a lot as an introductory lesson in chord changes.

― sundar subramanian (sundar), Thursday, 24 February 2005 00:51 (5 years ago) Permalink

And no, Sasha didn't see them on those tours. I asked him when he first wrote about the recent MSG show that we both attended.

Tim, I do think that they are at a low ebb, but don't read that as me saying "REM totally suck now." I didn't like Around The Sun very much at first, but I now like about two thirds of record quite a bit. I still think some of those songs are duds, though.

― Matthew C Perpetua (inca), Thursday, 24 February 2005 00:52 (5 years ago) Permalink

See, I'm someone who liked Up and Reveal more than Monster and New Adventures. And to me, the new album just took it up a big notch.

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Thursday, 24 February 2005 00:53 (5 years ago) Permalink

I see where you're coming from. I like R.E.M. the most when they are mostly rocking.

Reveal is a weird one. In abstract, I don't like it very much, but if I hear it, I can get into it. Some of those songs are pretty duddy though - "Saturn Return" in particular. "Beat A Drum" is nice but a little too syrupy; "I'll Take The Rain" is catchy but probably the cheesiest power ballad of their career; I'll never understand what the hell they see in "She Just Wants To Be.' But "I've Been High," "Imitation Of Life," and "The Lifting" are pretty classic, and "Chorus and the Ring" is very underrated. I mostly think of Reveal as being an experiment in lushness than mostly came out sounding overcooked.

I really like the majority of the songs on Up, but I think that one needed to be edited down to nine or ten songs.

― Matthew C Perpetua (inca), Thursday, 24 February 2005 01:02 (5 years ago) Permalink

Fables is my favorite, too, followed by Green.

Who knew an R.E.M. thread would blaze like this??

― Aaron A., Thursday, 24 February 2005 01:03 (5 years ago) Permalink

I want to go back to people talking about Murmur though.

― Alba (Alba), Thursday, 24 February 2005 01:05 (5 years ago) Permalink

I think I listened to Murmur before school every day of 9th grade.

― Aaron A., Thursday, 24 February 2005 01:07 (5 years ago) Permalink

But only Fables has "Kohoutek", bitchez

― Aaron A., Thursday, 24 February 2005 01:12 (5 years ago) Permalink

needed to be edited down to nine or ten songs

This is the truth about their post-Berry records.


As for Murmur/Reckoning, I think I prefer Murmur but it's funny, I don't think it ends particularly well. The songs are ok but the sequencing is kind of odd. Reckoning flows a little better, especially the lp.

― dan. (dan.), Thursday, 24 February 2005 01:12 (5 years ago) Permalink

Dude, "We Walk"...

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Thursday, 24 February 2005 01:14 (5 years ago) Permalink

Yeah but right before the end of the record is strange. I love that song but right into West of the Fields or whatever, I don't get.

― dan. (dan.), Thursday, 24 February 2005 01:17 (5 years ago) Permalink

"I've Been High," "Imitation Of Life," and "The Lifting" are pretty classic, and "Chorus and the Ring" is very underrated.

"All the Way to Reno" and "Disappear," too.

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Thursday, 24 February 2005 01:24 (5 years ago) Permalink

But only Fables has "Kohoutek", bitchez

OTM. More "Kohoutek" love!

― Nag! Nag! Nag! (Nag! Nag! Nag!), Thursday, 24 February 2005 01:25 (5 years ago) Permalink

After reading this thread I'm glad to see REM fans are more forgiving of REM's later work than pavements fans are with pavement's. So far no maniacs seriously claiming to only like chronic town and the original version of radio free europe like pavement dorks claiming to only like the drag city singles and eps

― jb, Thursday, 24 February 2005 01:42 (5 years ago) Permalink

Well...OK, here's the thing for me with that. I liked Pavement when they were first putting out records. When Slanted and Enchanted came out, I thought it was a good record, but it didn't make me want to keep following them after that. I just didn't feel like they were a band that should be thinking in terms of albums. I didn't want to sit through a whole album of them. I thought they were just making albums because they got signed to Matador and that's what bands do when they get signed to Matador. Left to their own devices, they put out singles and EPs. Maybe they intuitively knew better then?

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Thursday, 24 February 2005 01:59 (5 years ago) Permalink

Yeah, R.E.M. were a dance band. They smeared Michael Bolton on American Bandstand...oh did they...it's almost as beautiful as PiL's mockery of the show.

― Ian Riese-Moraine (Eastern Mantra), Thursday, 24 February 2005 02:18 (5 years ago) Permalink

i have a bootleg from '86 or '87 where they play 'oddfellows local 151.' i hate the studio version, but the live version is so unbelievably kickass--it's the one song that really shows *musically* how much they love and admired gang of four. it totally swings and funks up.

even though i'm listening to fables right now, my favorite is still reckoning. i just don't think the production holds up well on murmur, god love dixon/easter. it sounds murky. and not in the mystical way i remember it being when i was 14, either.

it could be my age more, though--i'm 25, and reckoning seems more restless and transitory and searching and unsettled and just alive, which is how i often feel.

and hi-fi is completely underrated. they've always said it's a road record, and they're right. one of the few albums with a ton of different styles that all fit together.

i was indifferent to Up until, oh, this january. then i gave it another shot and realized how brilliant it really is. there's something fragile and brittle, but yet filled with hope, lurking throughout.

and they've always been fantastic live. saw 'em six times this fall, twice in '03. the MSG show this year post-election may have been them at their best.

― hndinglove (hndinglove), Thursday, 24 February 2005 03:43 (5 years ago) Permalink

Hi, Annie!

― The Obligatory Sourpuss (Begs2Differ), Thursday, 24 February 2005 03:47 (5 years ago) Permalink

But only Fables has "Kohoutek", bitchez

OTM. More "Kohoutek" love!
Yeah, this is one of my favorites. The thing I like about it is that they were so obviously completely drunk when they recorded it. Because of that, it has this weird drunken swing to it that I don't think any sober person could replicate.

― William Selman (William Selman), Thursday, 24 February 2005 04:03 (5 years ago) Permalink

'Reckoning' by a country mile, though my appreciation for 'Murmur' actually grows with each year. Even small songs like 'Laughing' that I never much noticed before are now totally devastating and gorgeous to me.

REM break my heart. They were my favorite band for about 13 years, but it kills me to see them these days. I think their Warner years overall are very, very spotty, but I also think its weird the way some of them have aged for me. I can't even listen to the "insta-classic" 'Automatic' anymore, but i'm willing to go to the mat for scattered moments of 'Monster', which most everyone seems to hate. I had 'Circus Envy' come on after 'TV Eye' on my iPod a few months ago, and my head nearly exploded on the subway platform.

But those early records are just insanely consistent - I have a bootleg from the 'Fables' tour, and it's unbelievable how nervy and wiry and fierce they were back then. Within their first 3 years as a band, they wrote 'Catapult', 'Pretty Persuasion', 'Auctioneer' and 'Carnival of Sorts'. That's just ridiculous. The last 2 records -- it's like Phil Collins with worse songs. I kind of wish they'd busted up after 'Monster' and just reunited 10 years later.

I saw them on the Hits tour in '03, and it was phenomenal - they played songs I'd been aching to hear for years, and also performed like a band 10 years their junior. but when the lights went up, I knew in my heart that that near-perfect show had, at long last, closed the REM chapter of my life.


However, I will continue to adamantly defend 'Up' as an overlooked masterpiece to anyone who asks.

― PeopleFunnyBoy (PeopleFunnyBoy), Thursday, 24 February 2005 04:35 (5 years ago) Permalink

man i heard 'circus envy' for the first time in a decade a couple of weeks ago too and was struck at how great it is

― j blount (papa la bas), Thursday, 24 February 2005 04:37 (5 years ago) Permalink

Earlier in the thread someone said that R.E.M. hadn't experimented much after Murmur, and all I could think was "uh, what about Monster? what about "Circus Envy" in particular?" What other record on planet earth sounds like Monster?

― Matthew C Perpetua (inca), Thursday, 24 February 2005 05:05 (5 years ago) Permalink

What other record on planet earth sounds like Monster?
'80s solo Iggy Pop, for one thing.

― joseph cotten (joseph cotten), Thursday, 24 February 2005 05:14 (5 years ago) Permalink

Kinda sorta not really.

There's a colorful fruitiness to Monster that Iggy doesn't really touch. He's an obvious influence, sure, but there's more to Monster than that.

― Matthew C Perpetua (inca), Thursday, 24 February 2005 05:15 (5 years ago) Permalink

This whole thread and no "Rockville"? I know, it's a genre move, but it's a good genre move. I love that song.

I had both Chronic Town and Reckoning before I got Murmur for some reason, so they both still seem more definitive to me than Murmur (I know that's nonsense, but the subjectivity of experience is a bitch). I love all three. After that, Pageant is the obvious high point, altho I think Automatic for the People really is a pretty great pop record ("Nightswimming" I could listen to over and over and over). Fables, Green, Document and Out of Time all have 4 or 5 songs I love. I did start to run out of gas on them in the mid-90s. Hi-Fi's got some nice stuff, I like the Leonard Cohen rip-off on Up, haven't heard much since. Like U2, their endurance is kind of comforting to me in a way that has nothing to do with art. (Like, I couldn't care less about the new U2 record, but I got a little warm and fuzzy in line at Best Buy the other day when the 16-year-old chiquita in front of me was singing along loudly with "Vertigo". I was like, I saw these guys before you were born! It was kind of generationally affirming or something.)

The Pavement comparison with R.E.M. is apt, in that they're both bands I like a lot but have always felt a little removed from. I never obsessed over R.E.M. the way I did over the Replacements or Prince. (Because the Replacements and Prince both made better records? OK, we won't have that argument here, this is the R.E.M. love thread.)

― gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Thursday, 24 February 2005 07:39 (5 years ago) Permalink

murmur by light years. reckoning is absolutely unbearable to these ears. a clichéd mor country rock record like no other. it really makes me want to shoot my cd player when it's on.

― alex in mainhattan (alex63), Thursday, 24 February 2005 08:46 (5 years ago) Permalink

weird, i thought REM were the one band where everyone agreed on certain fundamental truths, i.e. IRS years were the best, with Murmur and Fables the obvious peaks, Reckoning clearly the weakest; Green thru Monster patchy with great moments; New Adventures a bit disappointing at the time, now in hindsight revealed to be actually very good; everything after shrug-worthy.

maybe this is what happens when you've been hanging out with the same people for 10 years. i have critical tunnel vision.

― fsharp (fsharp), Thursday, 24 February 2005 09:28 (5 years ago) Permalink

Whoa - steady on Alex!

I have a strange releationship with REM - I would never say that they're one of my top 50 or so fave bands, yet when I am moved to play one of their albums, I end up playing the lot and *really* getting back into them. This phase lasts a couple of weeks and then I forget about them again.

I'd rate them like this :

Utterly Wonderful : Fables, Hi-Fi, Document, Automatic, Pageant

Nearly wonderful : Murmur (too familiar), Out of Time (likewise), Monster, Reveal, Around The Sun (a couple of songs are half-written, but I am enjoying this!)

Good, but not great : Up (brave experiment, but doesn't quite work), Reckoning (good songs but thin sounding - could be the CD, maybe I should hear it on vinyl), Green (a bit throwaway in parts?)

Did I forget any?

― Dr. C (Dr. C), Thursday, 24 February 2005 09:49 (5 years ago) Permalink

I don't think so Doc.

Personally I loved the first couple of albums when they came out (if I was forced to choose at gunpoint right now I'd probably say Reckoning - but if you asked me again tomorrow I'd be just as likely to say Murmur) but I was progressively less impressed with Fables and Pageant - in fact I actually stopped buying their albums at that time fir a while but ended up going back for them later, after having my interest in REM re-awakened by Automatic For The People.

Document was an improvement over Fables and Pageant but still not as good as Murmer and Reckoning.

Green has some great songs but doesn't seem to hang together as an album and I usually find my attention waivering.

Out Of Time had a couple of good tracks but a lot of filler.

Automatic For The People is a great album but has been completely destryed for me by over exposure (surely in this respect it has to be the '90's equivalent of Dark Side Of The Moon?).

Monster seemed to start off OK but rapidly lost momentum and I haven't bought another REM album since.

So far.

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Thursday, 24 February 2005 10:48 (5 years ago) Permalink

i don't think you left out anything, dr.c. i'd rate them roughly in teh same order. though "green" was quite good at the time if i remember well. what you say about "murmur" and "out of time" is my main problem with rem. their music becomes familiar too easily. five listens of an album by them are often enough for a long time.

what about "around the sun"? i enjoyed "hi-fi" and "reveal" but did neither like "monster" nor "up". though i didn't really listen to those i must admit. an immediate gut reaction. is the new one for me?

― alex in mainhattan (alex63), Thursday, 24 February 2005 10:51 (5 years ago) Permalink

I love that someone would think that a very popular band with a large discography over a period of 20+ years would yield anything close to a consensus. If there is one, you're actually on the wrong side of it - every poll I've ever seen lists Automatic and Document as the most popular R.E.M. records, with Murmur and Reckoning consistently in the middle or bottom of the list. Actual R.E.M. fans from around the world favor the records with the big hits on them.

― Matthew C Perpetua (inca), Thursday, 24 February 2005 14:46 (5 years ago) Permalink

Alex, Around The Sun continues in the Up/Reveal direction, but with a more organic full band approach. It's not so dense and the songs breathe a bit more. There are some duds on it, but at least eight songs that I would recommend, though it took a while for me to get into them.

― Matthew C Perpetua (inca), Thursday, 24 February 2005 14:52 (5 years ago) Permalink

Blount!

haha o dear MY FIRST (serious) KISS was to "fall on me" - ATHENS TO THE CORE BITCHES

"Big Chill" + "Garden State" = "GEORGIA PEACH"!!!! MAKE IT SO!

― David R. (popshots75`), Thursday, 24 February 2005 15:09 (5 years ago) Permalink

KOHOUTEK!

― mookieproof (mookieproof), Thursday, 24 February 2005 15:35 (5 years ago) Permalink

Reckoning, hands down. Side One of Reckoning is the best album side they ever recorded.

― John Hunter, Thursday, 24 February 2005 17:34 (5 years ago) Permalink

Murmur, because of its mysteriousness, its Martian weirdness, and its sounding completely unlike any other REM record. Damn, it's a beautiful album.

Reckoning is awesome, though.

― ffirehorse, Friday, 25 February 2005 05:28 (5 years ago) Permalink

thank you for the info, matthew. what you say sounds good but somehow not thrilling enough to make me run to the cd/record shop.

― alex in mainhattan (alex63), Friday, 25 February 2005 06:04 (5 years ago) Permalink

I listened to Green last night for the first time for 5, maybe 10 years! Wow - good stuff. Side 2 is flawless and pretty moving stuff. Buck sounds maybe the best ever on Orange Crush - whoever said it's a weak single upthread is wrong, this has muscles! Turn You Inside Out - no this is Buck's best ever 'rock' playing, on the outro I mean. Mill's bass is terrific too. And god I love the little organ hook. And the thunderous drums, oh yes. Get Up - bubblerock extrordinaire - love it! Have to listen to this again today, but on the strength of last night's plays I have to promote this up to the utterly wonderful category (see above).

― Dr. C (Dr. C), Friday, 25 February 2005 08:20 (5 years ago) Permalink

Fables of the Reconstruction of the .. was what i first heard so made the impression, but it's still for me their first really odd sounding music that sounded new and different back then and made me listen, esp. compared to the earlier "hits" i associated with them like Radio Free which just put me off as tradj.

I was bowled over by Here from There (and esp. the cheap video) but i listened to that whole album for a year and didn't find any of the songs palling or obvious. Like something new (same time as Cupid & Psyche '85, another year-enduring winner for a low-stocked student).

― george gosset, Friday, 25 February 2005 14:54 (5 years ago) Permalink

Another big up for the late-in-the-thread "(Don't Go Back to) Rockville." Among other things, always loved the way that funky little workout leads into it.

― Ken L (Ken L), Friday, 25 February 2005 15:00 (5 years ago) Permalink

"every poll I've ever seen lists Automatic and Document as the most popular R.E.M. records, with Murmur and Reckoning consistently in the middle or bottom of the list. Actual R.E.M. fans from around the world favor the records with the big hits on them."

But how many of the REM fans who voted for these polls actually own Murmer and Reckoning?

I've met several people who clearly considered themselves to be REM fans who were blissfully unaware of the fact that the band had a career before signing to Warner Bros. and if you're going to poll casual fans like those then you're inevitably going to get a result that leans heavily in favour of the biggest selling albums with the biggest selling singles on them; which is all very fine and groovy for what it is - but a balanced, informed and in any way

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Friday, 25 February 2005 15:41 (5 years ago) Permalink

Oi! what happened to the end of my diatribe?

.... meaningful assessment of the relative merits of the individual albums it most assuredly ain't!

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Friday, 25 February 2005 15:43 (5 years ago) Permalink

I'm not really an R.E.M. buff but I've just read that the original Murmur sessions were produced by Stephen Hague, who stuck loads of synths on without the band's knowledge and got fired. Did these versions ever surface?

?!?!??! i can't believe i never knew this. fascinating. especially so cuz i'm listening to reckoning for the first time in about two years and am *so* impressed with the drums. i never noted before how high they are in the mix. berry meant so much to this band and never got enough credit for it.

also, i remember reading all these stories about how revolutionary r.e.m. was for letting buck noodle his way around since the melody was provided by mills' bass. funny, cuz i can i have to crank up the left side of my equalizer to even hear the bass here.

― john'n'chicago, Friday, 25 February 2005 17:06 (5 years ago) Permalink

They kind of fixed the guitar thing by Reckoning.

― dan. (dan.), Friday, 25 February 2005 17:10 (5 years ago) Permalink

(xpost)
i should note, though that i'm listening through headphones coming out of my computer. when i push the buds into my ears, mills is a lot more prominent.

― john'n'chicago, Friday, 25 February 2005 17:15 (5 years ago) Permalink

I think the one record I still own by them is Dead Letter Office. For the liner notes.

Murmur ended up being the only one I ever actively listened to. So that. It just sounds nice.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 25 February 2005 17:17 (5 years ago) Permalink

I'm a sucker for 7 Chinese Brothers, and it's got Pretty Persuasion & So. Central Rain on it, but somehow Reckoning just never held together as a complete album for me the way Murmur did.

― Bimble... (Bimble...), Friday, 25 February 2005 17:21 (5 years ago) Permalink

Eponymous

― o. nate (onate), Friday, 25 February 2005 17:22 (5 years ago) Permalink

They kind of fixed the guitar thing by Reckoning.

if you're talking about my comment re: buck noodling over mills' melody, i remember these articles being around the time of document and lifes rich pageant.

― john'n'chicago, Friday, 25 February 2005 18:01 (5 years ago) Permalink

They were around before that too and they were right, though by Reckoning the guitars were brought up in the mix. He obviously became a better player as time wore on and I don't hear so many bass leads by Lifes Rich Pageant or Fables even.

― dan. (dan.), Friday, 25 February 2005 18:11 (5 years ago) Permalink

"don't go back to rockville" was another obvious piece of american rock sound that led to me gagging on their early stuff. I don't care however ironic it might've been about some place or other in america. It didn't mean anything to all us non-americans, just sounding like that country rock band Alabama to me, ready to go on the redneck charts.

at least "radio free europe" purported some awareness beyond the single country that gave us "The World Series" and universal junk food for people on welfare.

ok, so they had to have dumb catchy first singles, but i can't think of a duller more predictable song from REM than "rockville". Thank xclly they moved on.

― george gosset, Friday, 25 February 2005 19:13 (5 years ago) Permalink

Per Eponymous liner notes, "Rockville" used to be a fast punk thing and became a country song as a joke. I'm confused by your use of "predictable" - you mean it was predictable by the time of its release?

― joseph cotten (joseph cotten), Friday, 25 February 2005 19:17 (5 years ago) Permalink

the single country that gave us "The World Series" and universal junk food for people on welfare.

You're kidding, right?

― dan. (dan.), Friday, 25 February 2005 19:19 (5 years ago) Permalink

I think George is saying he doesn't like country.

― o. nate (onate), Friday, 25 February 2005 19:21 (5 years ago) Permalink

phew, nate, thanks. getting out of my depth there made me think of a famous song by Tom Petty. i'm a bit scrambled.

yeah, i assumed it was a joke, ie: it had predictable chords you'd expect from an early Randy Newman sketch, a deliberately chart-catchy hook and some weird IRS contra deal whereby this band from somewhere i'd call nowhere got distributed as far as new zealand. we thought these jangly guitars where pretty trad. cf: what seemed more deliberately overt punk guitar from locals.

i'd like to hear the punk version. It'd be over faster, but it might have nice jerky timings.

back to fables and that "old man kinsey" and "Green grow .." sounded trad-ish but with interesting chords, good hooks, spooky .. abstract ..

(gotta disappear now)

― george gosset (gegoss), Friday, 25 February 2005 19:58 (5 years ago) Permalink

This "Rockville" hate is interesting. To me, it's like Wire's "Mannequin"- completely straight and completely great.

― Ken L (Ken L), Friday, 25 February 2005 20:20 (5 years ago) Permalink

The "punk" version really isn't any different. It's sped up a bit kind of like Jason and the Scorchers or something, but it's still pretty country.

― dan. (dan.), Friday, 25 February 2005 20:24 (5 years ago) Permalink

Anyway, I don't hear "Rockville" as being ironic in the slightest (apart from maybe the "Rock"-ville pun in the title). I think the relative straightforwardness of the song both in sound and lyrics probably has more to do with the fact that it was written by Mike Mills instead of Stipe than any attempt at irony. It's just a lovely, sentimental little tune.

― o. nate (onate), Friday, 25 February 2005 21:32 (5 years ago) Permalink

To me, it's like Wire's "Mannequin"- completely straight and completely great.

OK i guess supposedly "catchy" songs piss me off sometimes and if listening to it felt painful i still apologise for not being able to listen to the words indepenently.

I do like the sound of Chronic Town if it is indeed fair to call it "psych-folk-disco".

― george gosset (gegoss), Friday, 25 February 2005 21:57 (5 years ago) Permalink

2 years pass...
Can we PLEASE please please please talk some more about Murmur? I have found a terrible fetish about playing it on vinyl, despite it just being one of those things I expected to pretty much leave behind to my teenage years. It just sounds so fucking good. I feel sorry for people without record players, I really do.

― Bimble, Saturday, 14 April 2007 04:49 (3 years ago) Permalink

Thank you Bimble, we needed that.

― Jena, Saturday, 14 April 2007 04:56 (3 years ago) Permalink

This is the point where the internet makes it impossible to discern sarcasm from seriousness.

― Bimble, Saturday, 14 April 2007 04:58 (3 years ago) Permalink

glad this was revived, have been thinking about this. Trying to decide if it's because I had Reckoning in middle school/high school but not murmur that I like Reckoning so much more. After a few days of listening to them both, for me....

Radio Free Europe (hibtone version) > Chronic Town > Reckoning > Murmur

And that's not to say I don't love murmur.

― dan selzer, Saturday, 14 April 2007 05:10 (3 years ago) Permalink

what, pray tell, is the "hibtone" version? Is that something on Dead Letter Office? I confess I don't have DLO anymore, and it's making me damn sad about now.

― Bimble, Saturday, 14 April 2007 05:13 (3 years ago) Permalink

Also I like the description upthread of Chronic Town as "psych-folk-disco"

So is Michael Stipe gay or is this just a rumour? It would make me happy if he was for some reason...I guess because I never would have thought of him being gay when I was into them back then. Never. But it's not really important, either. Perfect Circle is still way way up there with Echo & The Bunnymen's "Ocean Rain" in the "best songs ever" category.

― Bimble, Saturday, 14 April 2007 05:21 (3 years ago) Permalink

I think it was pretty known that he's gay. But what do I know. Maybe he just likes holding hands with Mario Batali all the time.

When RFE was recorded and released as a single it was much more produced and a bit more rocking than the version on Murmur, which better suits that record. One of my introductions to REM after Document was the first CD I ever bought, Eponymous, the IRS contract filling greatest hits of the indie era CD, which featured the hibtone version.

― dan selzer, Saturday, 14 April 2007 07:05 (3 years ago) Permalink

Radio Free Europe (hibtone version) > Chronic Town > Reckoning > Murmur

otm. although i'd maybe put "carnival of sorts" at the head of the whole parade. (speaking of which.)

― tipsy mothra, Saturday, 14 April 2007 07:08 (3 years ago) Permalink

I used to watch Livewire on nickolodeon.

Love how all the kids are dancing American Bandstand style...I don't think I ever would have considered them a dance band but on my recent listening of the early stuff there's quite a bit of that new wave disco beat a-la Pylon/B-52s/Method Actors perhaps.

― dan selzer, Saturday, 14 April 2007 13:41 (3 years ago) Permalink

So is Michael Stipe gay or is this just a rumour?

He's been with a French guy for years; he thanked his "boyfriend" at the Hall of Fame dinner.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Saturday, 14 April 2007 14:04 (3 years ago) Permalink

at least "radio free europe" purported some awareness beyond the single country that gave us "The World Series" and universal junk food for people on welfare.

-- george gosset, Friday, February 25, 2005 11:13 AM (2 years ago)


wow, this is the douchiest thing ever written on ILM. kudos!

― gershy, Saturday, 14 April 2007 15:32 (3 years ago) Permalink

Yeah, the only thing douchier than ignorant Americans is people ignorant enough to assume all Americans are ignorant.

So Dan! You know the Method Actors eh? That's cool. They were a great band.

― Bimble, Saturday, 14 April 2007 16:20 (3 years ago) Permalink

OMG that Livewire thing on YouTube...wow. Look at those big glasses, too! Haha. I've never heard of that program before.

― Bimble, Saturday, 14 April 2007 16:22 (3 years ago) Permalink

The only other performance I remember from Livewire was Grandmaster Melle Mel doing White Lines. It was a pretty cool talk show for kids that dealt with real issues.

The Method Actors were great.

― dan selzer, Saturday, 14 April 2007 16:45 (3 years ago) Permalink

the only thing douchier ... is people ignorant enough to assume all Americans are ignorant.

Oddly enough, many of these people are Americans.

― lukas, Saturday, 14 April 2007 20:41 (3 years ago) Permalink

one of my most distinct musical memories is hearing the original Hib-Tone version of RFE in my friend's mom's car, must have been 1982? One of those moments where the radio just grabs your imagination by the throat. Based on that one experience and a positive review from either Rolling Stone or Creem I bought Chronic Town when it came out and still have everything up to New Adventures.

I pick Murmur, it has immense sentimental value for me (senior year of high school/first year of college) and "Standing Still" is for me perhaps their finest moment.

― sleeve, Saturday, 14 April 2007 22:17 (3 years ago) Permalink

it's "Sitting Still," sorta of a big difference.

― Mr. Que, Saturday, 14 April 2007 22:56 (3 years ago) Permalink

what, pray tell, is the "hibtone" version?

I think this version is also on that two cd outtakes/rarities/best of thing that came out last year.

I concur about preferring "Murmer" on vinyl. Not sure why though, except maybe that was how I heard it the first time.

― kwhitehead, Sunday, 15 April 2007 01:35 (3 years ago) Permalink

Well I went down to the record shop today to get Dead Letter Office and some other things. I listened to the Hibtone version there and seemed to find it more familiar than I expected. I seem to remember hearing that at some point prior to the Murmur version on the radio, but I've gotten so used to the Murmur version now, it's not quite the same. I also found two REM bootlegs there and gave them both a listen...the interesting one was called something like "So Much Younger Then" and it was from 1981...it was filled with a buttload of songs that didn't appear on any of their records. But it was a slightly different style, faster, and I didn't really feel it was worth buying. The other bootleg had versions of tracks from the first two albums, but I decided I didn't really want different versions of those songs.

― Bimble, Sunday, 15 April 2007 02:06 (3 years ago) Permalink

xpost: I first heard Murmur on a cassette my dad had made for car-listening purposes where he screwed up and put side B first

but I was like 3, and it didn't really have much of an impact on my enjoyment of the record when I returned to it many years later (far more damaging was the tape he made from the 10-song single-LP american release of English Settlement)

― bernard snowy, Sunday, 15 April 2007 02:14 (3 years ago) Permalink

God, I gave a copy of that "So Much Younger Then" to my (REM loving) girlfriend in college twenty years ago. All I remember is a track called "Body Count" that was ok.

― dlp9001, Sunday, 15 April 2007 02:19 (3 years ago) Permalink

Oh god, that sounds like such a bad version of English Settlement I want to throw up. You're making me nauseous! I've only ever had that on CD and that's the way I want it to stay.

Yeah actually "Body Count" was one of the few I listened to. It was at the start of one of the sides, it's the first one I heard. It was so fast and punky and tragically seemed to go on forever. Very long song. I switched and skimmed a few other tracks after that.

― Bimble, Sunday, 15 April 2007 03:43 (3 years ago) Permalink

the interesting one was called something like "So Much Younger Then" and it was from 1981...it was filled with a buttload of songs that didn't appear on any of their records. But it was a slightly different style, faster, and I didn't really feel it was worth buying.

I have this, and one or two other bootlegs that address their pre-recording career as Athens's best party band. Remember, the B-52s had skipped town, so there was a real need for jumped-up rock and roll cover bands, and I have to say they acquit themselves really well. "Permanent Vacation" is pure gold!

― Doctor Casino, Sunday, 15 April 2007 04:23 (3 years ago) Permalink

it's "Sitting Still," sorta of a big difference.

yeah, I actually realized last night that the song I meant was "Perfect Circle", it has lyrics about standing in the rain or some such and I got 'em mixed up.

― sleeve, Sunday, 15 April 2007 17:53 (3 years ago) Permalink

Mark Prindle has a funny line about those early songs - something like "How in the world did R.E.M. go from writing the worst songs of all time to making Chronic Town in something like a year?"

― Tim Ellison, Sunday, 15 April 2007 18:15 (3 years ago) Permalink

Way up xpost, but I never fully grasped the majesty of Murmur until I got it on vinyl last week. The CD sucks so much out of early REM records. Oh, and Reckoning wins the thread title's debate for me.

― Davey D, Sunday, 15 April 2007 18:37 (3 years ago) Permalink

Come on, admit it, Harborcoat is the best thing you've heard in at least 7 years.

― Bimble, Sunday, 15 April 2007 23:10 (3 years ago) Permalink

7 Chinese Brothers

The one thing I remember about that Dead Letter Office LP was that it always made me want to have Reckoning's version of 7 Chinese Bros. every time. It always made me want to pull it out. And it doesn't matter because
"wrap your healing bones of steel"

7 Chinese Brothers swallowing the ocean 7 thousand years to sleep away the pain...she'll return...

"full of deceit"

Just kills me. Just absolutely kills me.

― Bimble, Sunday, 15 April 2007 23:13 (3 years ago) Permalink

POOR BABY PEOPLE WITH THEIR MISGUIDED IPODS!

"WRAP YOUR HEALING BONES OF STEEL...TWIST OF COLOUR..." FOR GOD'S SAKE COULDN'T YOU JUST DO ANGLOPHILIA A BREAK

SHE WILL RETURN
SHE'LL RETURN
SHE WILL RETURN

7 CHINESE BROTHERS

― Bimble, Sunday, 15 April 2007 23:15 (3 years ago) Permalink

tHESE RIVERS OF SUGGESTION ARE DRIVING ME AWAY

CITY OF THE RIVER GIRL WITHOUT A DREAM

i'M SORRY!!!

PRETTY PERSUASION

― Bimble, Sunday, 15 April 2007 23:16 (3 years ago) Permalink

Bimbe, I've loved your burbles of intoxication lately.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Sunday, 15 April 2007 23:44 (3 years ago) Permalink

Two great albums, but I'd rank "Murmur" ahead, mainly because it is stronger overall with less average tracks.

― Geir Hongro, Monday, 16 April 2007 10:28 (3 years ago) Permalink

I quite like Side One of Reckoning, which is more than I can say for any other proper REM album. So, that one.

― Myonga Vön Bontee, Monday, 16 April 2007 17:14 (3 years ago) Permalink

I have to admit that even now I still test out a new guitar with "Sitting Still" and "Pretty Persuasion"

― Elvis Telecom, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 00:21 (3 years ago) Permalink

Alfred, you're much too kind.

― Bimble, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 01:58 (3 years ago) Permalink

I have to admit that even now I still test out a new guitar with "Sitting Still" and "Pretty Persuasion"

Hahaha I use "Begin the Begin" for the same purpose.

― Erroneous Botch, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 02:35 (3 years ago) Permalink

I'd have to go with Murmur, just for being more mysterious, and not having anything as generic as "Second Guessing." Although that first side of Reckoning is pretty hard to deny (and I like "Camera," too).

― clotpoll, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 07:16 (3 years ago) Permalink

I love Second Guessing!

― dan selzer, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 14:48 (3 years ago) Permalink

^^ co-sign ^^

― Tim Ellison, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:20 (3 years ago) Permalink

I think <i>Murmur</i> is the better album but i enjoy <i>Reckoning</i> more.

― christoff, Tuesday, 17 April 2007 16:41 (3 years ago) Permalink

I can't remember if it was this thread or some other one, but whoever said they were the American version of the Smiths, I salute you.

― Bimble, Sunday, 29 April 2007 19:24 (3 years ago) Permalink

What happened to the plans to re-release Gyrate on DFA records?

― Bimble, Sunday, 29 April 2007 19:36 (3 years ago) Permalink

Sorry, wrong thread. Pylon.

― Bimble, Sunday, 29 April 2007 19:36 (3 years ago) Permalink

The answer is: Kahoutek

― Bimble, Monday, 30 April 2007 01:50 (3 years ago) Permalink

8 months pass...

i have a bootleg from '86 or '87 where they play 'oddfellows local 151.' i hate the studio version, but the live version is so unbelievably kickass--it's the one song that really shows *musically* how much they love and admired gang of four...

-- hndinglove (hndinglove), Thursday, 24 February 2005 03:43 (2 years ago)

I would say that "9-9" from Murmur is another R.E.M. song that references Go4. I love the little breaks where Peter Buck tries to pull an Andy Gill with nervous feedback, harmonics, and a scratch or two, and then heads straight back into jangle.

"Sitting Still" as it sounds to me:

his name or not we all agree
see can stop stop where it
we could find it in the cyst
we could gather throw a fit

up to pine, katie buys a kitchen
size but not me in
city top of the big key
waste a time, sitting still

I'm the son and you can read
I'm the son and you're not dead
We could find it in the cyst
We could gather throw a fit

up to pine, katie buys a kitchen
size but not me in
city top of the big key
waste a time, sitting still

I I I can hear you x 3

his name or not we all agree
see can stop stop where it
we could find it in the cyst
we could gather throw a fit

up to pine, katie buys a kitchen
size but not me in
city top of the big key
waste a time, sitting still

I I I can hear you x 3

We can gather when I talk
You can get away from me
Get away from me!

up to pine, katie buys a kitchen
size but not me in
city top of the big key
waste a time, sitting still

I I I can hear you x 6
Can you hear me?

(no!)

Did I mention I love this song?

― Z S, Monday, 31 December 2007 17:35 (2 years ago) Permalink

I'm embarrassed to say that Reckoning is the one REM album I've never heard...

― pgwp, Monday, 31 December 2007 22:17 (2 years ago) Permalink

up to pine, katie buys a kitchen
size but not me in
city top of the big key
waste a time, sitting still

oh fuck is that what he says?

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Monday, 31 December 2007 22:23 (2 years ago) Permalink

I probably mentioned it before but Chronic Town shits all over both from a great, brown, splattery height.

― Alex in NYC, Monday, 31 December 2007 23:12 (2 years ago) Permalink

The real lyrics according to remrock.net:

This name I got we all agreed
See could stop stop it will rid
We could bind it in the cist
We could gather, throw a fit

Up to par and Katie bar the kitchen door, but not me in
Setting trap for love, making a waste of time, sitting still

I’m the sign and you can read.
I’m the sign and you’re not deaf.
We could bind it in the cist.
We could gather, throw a fit.

--

I think I like my version better.

― Z S, Tuesday, 1 January 2008 01:53 (2 years ago) Permalink

No no no no, now I refuse to believe any of that. I always swore he was singing "Sitting top of the big hill/waste of time/sitting still..."

Also I refuse to pull out my early R.E.M. records because I might not listen to anything else for days. I'm not even going to get started. Or at least...not until I've had a couple more drinks.

― Bimble, Tuesday, 1 January 2008 02:02 (2 years ago) Permalink

"Sit and try for the big kid, waste of time, sitting still" is my version

"Katy bar the door" is a phrase my family still uses. It just means something has been finished or a final conclusion has been reached.

― wanko ergo sum, Tuesday, 1 January 2008 02:19 (2 years ago) Permalink

"Sit and try for the big kid" is fine with me as well. At least it sounds like what you hear on the record.

Thanks for communicating this "Katy bar the door" thing. I've never heard that before. Do you live in the southern U.S.?

― Bimble, Tuesday, 1 January 2008 02:26 (2 years ago) Permalink

yessir

― wanko ergo sum, Tuesday, 1 January 2008 02:41 (2 years ago) Permalink

Ah! That explains it then. I came from the south, but not south enough! :)

― Bimble, Tuesday, 1 January 2008 03:17 (2 years ago) Permalink

I probably mentioned it before but Chronic Town shits all over both from a great, brown, splattery height.

Well, yes. Chronic Town has the sound of a band discovering that it's really onto something, something raw, propulsive and compelling. Murmur and, to a lesser extent, Reckoning were both great discs, but they lack Chronic Town's energy and verve.

― Daniel, Esq., Wednesday, 2 January 2008 05:15 (2 years ago) Permalink

I listened to disc 1 of "...and I feel fine" (the IRS years best of that came in 2007) and I was struck at how quickly the quality of songs goes downhill after (and maybe a bit before) "Fables."

While "Chronic Town" is a great record I think "Murmur" holds its own with it. My guess is that alot of the songs from "Murmer" were written around the same time as "Chronic Town"
but Chronic Town shits all over both from a great, brown, splattery height.=hyperbole.

― kwhitehead, Wednesday, 2 January 2008 17:18 (2 years ago) Permalink

I think Fables is really underappreciated. To me, it's as good as Murmur or Reckoning, as it delivers on the Southern Gothic rock sound remarkably well.

R.E.M. had its moments after Fables. But as good as they were, they became just a very good slightly off-kilter rock band, losing all the regional charm they had up through Fables.

― Daniel, Esq., Wednesday, 2 January 2008 17:23 (2 years ago) Permalink

9 months pass...

Received in e-mail today:

R.E.M.’S DEBUT ALBUM, the groundbreaking Murmur, REISSUED

IN TWO-CD 25th anniversary DELUXE EDITION FEATURING

PREVIOUSLY UNRELEASED 1983 CONCERT

The two-CD 25th Anniversary Deluxe Edition of Murmur (I.R.S./UMe), released November 25, 2008, features that original landmark album remastered plus an additional disc with a previously unreleased concert recorded at Larry’s Hideaway in Toronto three months after Murmur’s April release.

The 16-song live performance boasts nine of Murmur’s 12 songs, including “Radio Free Europe”; three songs first heard on 1982’s Chronic Town EP; early renditions of two songs that would subsequently appear on the band’s second album, 1984’s Reckoning; “Just A Touch,” later heard on R.E.M.’s fourth album, 1986’s Lifes Rich Pageant; and a cover of Velvet Underground’s “There She Goes Again,” which the group recorded in the studio for the b-side of “Radio Free Europe.”

Assembled in conjunction with R.E.M., Murmur - Deluxe Edition, the package also includes exclusive essays providing insight into the recording of the album by producers Mitch Easter and Don Dixon, as well as former I.R.S. executives Jay Boberg, Sig Sigworth, Carlos Grasso, Michael Plen.

― Ned Raggett, Friday, 17 October 2008 17:11 (1 year ago) Permalink

"Murmur" does slightly better what "Reckoning" does in a good way too.

― Geir Hongro, Saturday, 18 October 2008 01:14 (1 year ago) Permalink

... which is what, exactly?

― ilxor, Saturday, 18 October 2008 03:30 (1 year ago) Permalink

Sigh, I'd like to hope this won't be another fuck-up like the recent New Order reissues. But I'm a pessimist. I reckon we'll see a lot more releases like this before the record industry as we once knew it finally collapses.

― Roasted Ghost (Bimble Is Still More Goth Than You), Saturday, 18 October 2008 05:36 (1 year ago) Permalink

I like Murmur about a million times more than Reckoning. Although I love a lot of R.E.M.'s albums, Reckoning just isn't one of those. Don't know why, maybe something is wrong with me...

― Moodles, Sunday, 19 October 2008 04:45 (1 year ago) Permalink

Nope! Murmur is 50% better than Reckoning, I'd say.

― Roasted Ghost (Bimble Is Still More Goth Than You), Sunday, 19 October 2008 05:07 (1 year ago) Permalink

Always seemed pretty clear to me that he was singing "Silly tryin' for the big kill—waste of time sitting still," which, if nothing else makes far more sense than any of the transcriptions suggested above...in the damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't ambivalence that would permeate American underground rock for the next decade. On my copy, the lyric is clearest the first time you hear it.

The versions you get from the various lyrics sites are most amusing, though. Can't remember what the 33 1/3 book about Murmer provided.

It's hard for me to recall now, unless one of the early songs catches me off guard, just how odd they sounded when I first heard them. I mean, there were bands that had hints of that old American spookiness, and obviously a zillion bands around then that twitched and jittered, but REM did both, and they seemed simultaneously familiar and unnerving.

Chronic Town still sounds the oddest, and it's still the most propulsive—I wish there were more material from that patch. "Stumble" is bit of a drag, but the "Carnival" and "Gardening" are magic.

They'd write great songs throughout the 80s, but for me their sound got less interesting as they went along, so I'd go with Murmer over Reckoning, but I think I might now take Chronic Town over both, short as it was.

― Michael Train, Sunday, 19 October 2008 06:22 (1 year ago) Permalink

i've always heard "see them try for the big kill, wasting time, sitting still." but then again, i want him to be singing "we could gather, throw up beer." both these albums are fantastic. murmur sounds to me like an artifact of a band amazed by how good they are right off the bat, able to follow up "chronic town" with a monster twice its length. but for my money the sound of reckoning hearkens more to the "chronic town" kudzu spookiness the cover of murmur depicts. i can't choose. i can't choose between any of their first four albums. they're all great

― kamerad, Sunday, 19 October 2008 09:28 (1 year ago) Permalink

There's a bass part on Radio Free Europe, the build up to the chorus, that gets me going too.

^^^^
this

― Guayaquil (eephus!), Sunday, 19 October 2008 16:22 (1 year ago) Permalink

... which is what, exactly?

Well, both of the first R.E.M. albums were basically jangle pop albums produced by jangle pop "guru" Mitch Easter.

― Geir Hongro, Monday, 20 October 2008 05:21 (1 year ago) Permalink

5 months pass...

Does 'don't go back to Rockville' partly mean 'don't go back to Rockism'?

― the pinefox, Tuesday, 14 April 2009 14:32 (1 year ago) Permalink

― Mr. Que, Tuesday, 14 April 2009 14:40 (1 year ago) Permalink

Yes, there is a place called Rockville; thanks for locating it.

Does 'don't go back to Rockville' partly mean 'don't go back to Rockism'?

― the pinefox, Tuesday, 14 April 2009 14:56 (1 year ago) Permalink

nope

― Mr. Que, Tuesday, 14 April 2009 14:58 (1 year ago) Permalink

The After-Party: 'Rockville' and Other Riddles

By Richard Leiby
The Washington Post
Wednesday, October 13, 2004; Page C03

Mystery solved: For years we've wondered whether the great R.E.M. song "(Don't Go Back to) Rockville" referred to the historic town that serves as Montgomery County's seat of government. "Yes, that's right," band member Mike Mills, who penned the lyrics, confirmed to us while partying after the Vote for Change concert rocked the rafters of MCI Center. Sporting sunglasses at 2 a.m. Tuesday, Mills and fellow R.E.M.'ers Michael Stipe and Peter Buck mingled at nearby Zaytinya restaurant with a VIP crowd heavy on arty, liberal, more-champagne-please types.

― Mr. Que, Tuesday, 14 April 2009 15:00 (1 year ago) Permalink

Side 1 of reckoning is absolutely stunning, whereas murmur spreads its glories

― Dr X O'Skeleton, Tuesday, 14 April 2009 18:14 (1 year ago) Permalink

side two of reckoning is better!

― 69, Tuesday, 14 April 2009 18:16 (1 year ago) Permalink

although harborcoat may be my favorite REM song

― 69, Tuesday, 14 April 2009 18:17 (1 year ago) Permalink

no waiiiiiiiiiiiii side 1 rules

― Mr. Que, Tuesday, 14 April 2009 18:18 (1 year ago) Permalink

camera ruins side 2 for me

― Mr. Que, Tuesday, 14 April 2009 18:20 (1 year ago) Permalink

camera is pretty but side 1 is better

― clotpoll, Tuesday, 14 April 2009 19:08 (1 year ago) Permalink

<3 camera

― 69, Tuesday, 14 April 2009 22:29 (1 year ago) Permalink

when was 'all the right friends' originally recorded?

― the pinefox, Wednesday, 15 April 2009 10:05 (1 year ago) Permalink


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