Black Sabbath: Classic or Dud?

Later, post-Born Again-era Sabs? Eh, not so much.

except for the classic, vintage lineup's last couple albums. technical ecstasy, anyone? anyone???

There's a thread in the archive on this very subject.

Taking sides : Zeppelin or Sabbath

Taking Sides: Led Zeppelin Vol. 4 vs. Black Sabbath Vol.4

Anyways one of the best love songs of all time is "Sweet Leaf."

robert christgau

yeah, he just made my case. if there were a meter for classic, the red part would go 0 +1 +2 BLACK SABBATH.

My favorite all time UNDER-mentioned Sab songs: "Hand of Doom" "A National Acrobat" "The Thrill Of It All" "Junior's Eyes"

-- steve hise (shistee...), October 27th, 2004.

Sweat Loaf comes ridiculously close to bettering it though.

OK, unless you're really not into heavy rock or metal. Is this the case for you Myonga?

[I couldn't believe that Sabbath even deserved the classic/dud treatment, because I couldn't believe that ANYONE considered 'em duds. I was gonna post an are-you-kidding? reply immediately after my "DUD" assessment. But just before I did, I read Xgau's little blurb about "drug-impaired reaction time" and thought it would be HIGH-larious to wait awhile before changing my opinion, then finally changing it FOR REAL, and then blaming my long delay on...yep, you guessed it! It might've been funnier if I'd waited a day or two, but I've always been terribly impatient.]

Anyway, again, CLASSIC through first six albums; and even the inferior Dio and Gillan lineups produced a great LP between 'em.

Finally, one of these days I'm going to finally buy Technical Ecstasy and Never Say Die, just to see if they're really as bad as they're reputed.

-- Alex in NYC (vassife...), October 27th, 2004.

Finally, one of these days I'm going to finally buy Technical Ecstasy and Never Say Die, just to see if they're really as bad as they're reputed.

-- Myonga Von Bontee (scottyfield...), October 28th, 2004.

Never heard Technical Ecstacy, but Never Say Die is grebt for the:

- Cover art
- Title track
- The start of 'Air Dance'

The rest is decent, listenable stuff, just not as good as what came before (and it's got synths, not that that's necessarily a bad thing).

Please someone tell me they know the two songs on "The Ozzman Cometh" comp: "Black Sabbath" ('70 Basement Tapes) and "War Pigs" (1970 Basement Tapes).

Both of these songs are clear evidence that BIMBLE IS MORE GOTH THAN YOU.

Um there's actually more than two basement tapes on that comp (if you get the 2xcd version). Don't forget the awesome versions of "Fairies Wear Boots" and "Behind the Wall of Sleep".

I love the production of those tunes and all the alternate lyrics and verses. Total godhead.

yeah I will have to get the 2xCD version.

A goth's work is never done.

is that "war pigs" the "walpurgis" version with the satan/witch themed lyrics? i love that.

yeah that's what it is, dude.

That...

Just... No. Ugh.

<3 cindy und bert <3

Dehumanize is good too people.

heaven & hell did a dehumanizer song that was pretty good. i only knew it was dehumanizer because they put the cover to that album up on the big video screen

Probably Computer God. Maybe TV Crimes.

Back in 2007 Heaven and Hell played "After All (The Dead)", "Computer God", and "I"...the latter of which sounded really great. That song's held up very well.

I is definitely great. I don't know if they played Computer God at the Radio City show I was at.

You've got to be kidding me.

http://www.reuters.com/article/peopleNews/idUSTRE54T00420090531

Advantage: Iommi.

The reaction on dffd and probably all the other boards was "Sharon Is A Cunt"

that should infact be a poll

poll w/ one option

im sure theres x-factor viewers on ILX who like her. but someone do it to find out!

You're it Herm, i have no idea how to do it.

you click on where it says new poll
http://www.ilxor.com/ILX/Poll/EnterPollInformationControllerServlet?boardid=41

Instead of that, I'll just say that the vocals have always been the least important of the idea and ethos of what is "Black Sabbath". In Sabbath, it's:

mountain-moving guitar riffs and sound > thunderous but suprisingly agile rythym section >>>>>>>>> whoever the fuck is singing the lyrics the bassist wrote. Sorry Ozzy, but you now officially suck.

If as Ozzy alleges Iommi's trying to claim "ownership" of the Sabbath name, why would he be recording and touring as Heaven and Hell?

Iommi bought the name from the others in the '90s, plus he copyrighted it in 2000. Game, set, match. Just cuz he's touring with another name doesnt mean shit, if you're implying he waived his rights.

Deciblog has a good take:

http://decibelmagazine.com/Content.aspx?ncid=306741

from that
Posted 6/2/2009 2:13 PM by Senile Animal

Sharon Osbourne = Cunt!

holy shit, that statement by Ozzy. The brand was "literally in the toilet". Is this Kiss, who probably did sell toilets with the Kiss insignia, or Black Sabbath?

I doubt Ozzy can even go to the toilet without Sharon's permission/Help.

Somebody please shoot the man. Put him out of his misery.

By Request: Sharon Osbourne - Cunt Or Great?

I doubt Ozzy can even go to the toilet without Sharon's permission/Help.

Well, actually...

You want reality? Noticeably absent from the show's frequent mocking of Ozzy is any discussion of his bladder problems, which have long been legend in the rock world. The reason Oz continually dumps buckets of water on himself through his concerts is to mask the fact that he's peeing in his pants, according to some who are in the unenviable position to know. A friend of mine who once visited the Osbourne manse reports that Ozzy has a "special bathroom" whose walls are lined with rubber because his aim is so bad. Somehow, MTV's cameras have avoided showing us all that.

http://dir.salon.com/story/ent/music/feature/2002/07/16/ozzy/index.html

ugh

DEROGAAATIIISSSSSS fistshake.gif

As someone who, often as not, can't make it through a feature-length movie without running off to take a whiz at least once, I guess I admire Ozzy's dedication to holding the stage for an entire 2-3 hour show. There's a new TV ad out in which Ozzy pitches some manner of cell phone / mobile device / whatever the fuck you kids call it now in which he uses GPS to navigate his way to the w.c. in his own house which I will never look at the same again as a result.

how classic is black sabbath?

i was driving to a gig on the far side of bali with a car full of teenage punk rock roadies, mostly between the ages of 16 and 18. punk rock kids, mind you, not metlaheads (punks not dead in bali) anyway i didn't want to bore them with dance music or hip hop so i threw on "best of black sabbath" hoping they'd dig it... and those fuckers knew every note of the album. not just the guitar solo in paranoid, i mean they were air drumming the fills on snowblind, singing along with symptom of the universe etc. i doubt they'd ever seen the osbournes either. black sabbath is not just classic in america and england but all the way to the far flung reaches of the globe (if not the universe) i mean the group broke up a decade before these kids were even born ffs!

thats how classic black sabbath is.

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii317/RabitesAngelatin/signofthesoutherncross.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRhZISswW_k

Love that clip

Always cool to see the moustache-less Iommi

he reminds me of greg ginn there. love the shot of geezer going nuts in his flares

Geezer rules

I was woken up this morning by the strains of Black Sabbath s/t coming from my house mate's bedroom. Pretty pleasant alarm really.

When I saw them live in '99, I cried. Stoked to see Heaven & Hell with Neurosis supporting in August.

they're back! hurray?
After band members (most prominently Ozzy Osbourne) dropped hints of a possible reunion for at least a year, Tony Iommi confirmed that the original lineup of Black Sabbath has gotten back together and is planning an album and tour. Sabbath was last in the studio back in 2001, when work on a Rick Rubin-produced record stalled after Osbourne went to finish work on a solo album. In recent years, Iommi and Osbourne have battled over ownership of the Black Sabbath name, but that case was settled (with undisclosed terms) in 2010. "We're really looking forward to it and I think the stuff we’ve been writing is really good," Iommi said in an interview. "It's all been very hush-hush. Ozzy's been the worst at trying to hold it back. He's doing a lot of TV and he's being asked stuff about a reunion and he's going 'well I never say never'. He told me, 'I don't know what to say'."

has any of those rubin session leaked?

all i could dig up was this:

"scary dreams" from ozzfest 2001, supposed to be a part of those rubin sessions

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=735w63a53nc

http://www.roadrunnerrecords.com/blabbermouth.net/news.aspx?mode=Article&newsitemID=162051

how many lawyers will it take for this to happen?!

And then again:

http://gunshyassassin.com/news/tony-iommi-shoots-down-black-sabbath-reunion-reports/

I couldn't believe all the metal sites & blogs assuming all these rumours were fact these last 18 hours or so.

Yeah, it seems like fact checking went right out the window with this one but, otoh, its not too difficult to understand why some might choose to run with it given that it supposedly came directly from Iommi's own words.

Fuuuuuuuckkkkk

As I say, nobody's giving a definite no, just that one 'reporter' seems to have taken liberties with a 'private' 'conversation' or some such.

Looks like this is definitely on:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2011/nov/07/black-sabbath-reform-remembrance-day

Judging by this twitpic on their official Twitter, they are playing the Whiskey today?

http://p.twimg.com/Ad-2s7aCMAAoPFq.jpg

Or what?

Nevermind, its a reunion press conference being held there, hosted by Rollins.

yeah this is on

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WU3SZjfbcpI

So, wait, within the last few years did the band ever officially break up? I know they were suing each other, but I think it fishy to call it a reunion when it's really only been, you know, a few years off.

well it's a reunion of the original line-up which hasn't played together since 1978 so I think that it qualifies.

That's not true at all! I saw the original line-up a couple of times within the last decade. Unless you mean different than Ozzy, Geezer, Iommi and Ward? Because they've already reunited the hell out of this thing.

most interesting thing about that (basically awesome) youtube clip is: new album 2012.

(to be released on the rinse FM label, no doubt)

Yeah, this lineup has been reuniting every few years since 1997 or thereabouts. I saw 'em in 2004 on Ozzfest.

There is NO way this isn't going to suck balls. I had the displeasure of hearing some live reunion thing they did recently (2xCD - from the early aughts maybe? Dunno) and omg, Ozzy, please, for the love of God, STOP.

There is NO way this isn't going to suck balls.

I disagree. The Rubin treatment could really do something special. Live, yeah, for sure, avoid, but the record might be the first interesting thing Sabbath has done in a good long while.

Not if Ozzy's singing. Resurrect Ronnie James and, yeah, maybe. But this is gonna be awful. Mark it. I hope I'm wrong. But I'm not. Ozzy sucks. He's sucked since The Ultimate Sin and the decline has been a long, sharp one.

i want to hear ozzy deliver a long, incoherent, slurred response to your critique.

Wait a second, assholes could fly. Reunion was actually good. Especially if you are a true Sabbath fan-we were jacked to hear deep cuts like Behind The Wall of Sleep and Spiral Architect. Second, I saw Sabbath with Dio just two years ago, the band was fucking ON (granted different drummer and singer). No reason to believe this won't kill.

is rick rubin producing it, really? interesting and odd combination.

If anybody isn't psyched about this, get the fuck off the Sabbath thread.

even belle & sebastian are psyched about this.

Ozzy can sing fine. He wasn't a fantastic singer ever, all he has to do is hit the notes and keep time and be himself - and current engineering trends mean he doesn't really have to do the first two to make a good record.

Rubin has produced slayer, metallica,trouble,etc. All bands that would not exist withotu the originators, and true masters of the form: Sabbath.

excited.

Daniel, Esq. I was not trying to take u down on my post. I am using my blackberry which causes serious delays. I was responding to assholes could fly

lol, understood.

I hope this is not tied to some Ozzfest stupidity. I want a full set. I want supernaut , wicked world, megalomania,tomorrows dream. I don't want "hits". Please.

dude you're never going to get "wicked world," c'mon.

You know the point I'm trying to get across.

I just hope Rubin puts an effort into this album like he did in the '80s and early '90s, because hasn't his style as of late has been to let his underlings do all the work and he just nod in approval?

Wicked world does kick ass though.

I can't tell you how excited I am about this. I can't wait. This band has meant a lot to me since I was young, I know how silly that sounds. But they are very important to me.

You're all crazy. This is gonna make Loutallica sound like Budgie.

Hahahahaha

I just hope Rubin puts an effort into this album like he did in the '80s and early '90s, because hasn't his style as of late has been to let his underlings do all the work and he just nod in approval?

that was always his style - he doesn't even actually engineer - IIRC he does not actually know how to twiddle the knobs, etc. what he does is listen to stuff and give it the thumbs-up or thumbs-down

Ozzy sounded decent on his latest studio album (too bad the songs weren't really there) and the rest of the guys sounded fantastic backing up Dio, so I have no reason to think the album is going to be awful. Not really expecting it to blow me away either though.

that was always his style - he doesn't even actually engineer - IIRC he does not actually know how to twiddle the knobs, etc. what he does is listen to stuff and give it the thumbs-up or thumbs-down

If the Dixie Chicks documentary is any indication, he doesn't even show up to the studio. He does, however, offer such monumentally indispensable nuggets of wisdom like, "Nice chorus" and "I like the chorus" and "That's a good chorus."

His work on Ballbreaker was tremendous, though (and more engaged/hands-on, iirc); hopefully he'll do Sabbath the same way.

I'm with jon. Ozzy sounded pretty good on his last album (and really good on tour, btw; the set list and length of set were both unprecedented). I'm cautiously optimistic.

I have low expectations. If wiki is at all accurate, the four original members of Sabbath worked with Rubin back in 2001 but eventually abandoned the project, and I would be shocked if the new album is not composed largely of these decade-old sessions. And the last time I saw the original four live, back in 2004 on Ozzfest, I thought they were turgid and terrible, and Ozzy was at the peak of his cheerleader clownishness. Iommi and Butler I imagine will be in OK shape, but the idea of Ozzy and Ward with an extra decade behind them is a scary thought. Those guys looked like they were going to die on stage.

why not pick a more relevant producer? rubin's track record hasn't been great in the past 10+ years. everything he does sounds so clean and polished and devoid of any character.

i'd like to see sabbath produced by justin broadrick.

Sanford Parker producing Sabbath, now that would be something.

really hope Rubin approaches this like he did for Johnny Cash

^^^ if Rubin goes all in that way it could be really interesting. Hard to imagine Iommi going for it though

"It's now or never. We are getting along great. Everything's really good," said Iommi.

"It's like putting on an old glove. It's fantastic."

Oh man, who the fuck isn't psyched about putting on an old glove?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/eat-the-press/oj%20glove-thumb.jpg

I don't know, I saw them back in maybe 2002 and it totally lived up to my expectations in every way, and I know the guys in the band still totally kill it. HOWEVER in between 2002 and now i've seen Ozzy solo 2 or 3 times and although the first time in maybe 2004 was good, the ones a few years later were really really awful - i think he hit the point about 5 years back where he just can't do it anymore and it's a bit of an embarrassment. I hope i'm wrong, but I can see him dragging this down pretty badly.

Go figure.

I'll say it again, Ozzy and Ward are the weak links. Ozzy is a clown and Ward has lost his muscle.

Also, they all clearly hate each other, which tends to dampen spirits. And Sharon has a way of killing everything she touches.

^^^ Iommi sock spotted.

Again, I disagree on Ozzy's weakness. I saw him play last year and the set was more than two hours long, something like 17 or 18 songs, and his voice was strong throughout. I think he knew with Rob Halford as his opening act, he had to step his game up, but he's just staging a for-real comeback in the last few years. I just saw the movie God Bless Ozzy Osbourne last night and it seems he's been clean and sober for real for the last five years, so he really is in better physical health than when I saw him with Sabbath in '05 (when he'd just started to clean up). Now Ward is not the drummer he once was. But as long as he retains his sense of swing and can lock in with Butler the way they did in the '70s, triggering can solve problems of actual force live.

I think you also nail why Ozzy was good when you saw him. That guy's voice live these days is not exactly ... unsweetened. At least, that's my suspicion. But hey, I hope this is awesome.

Is there anyone in any field more overrated than rick rubin?

Classic for their run of work from 1970 until 1975, definitely. I'd put the first album with Dio on the classic pile as well. Dud for pretty much everything else, although there are moments here and there which could be kept. Any live version of 'Dirty Women' beats the pants off the studio cut.

Dude you just dissed mob rules prepare to dire

Current-day Halford opening for current day Ozzy = blasphemous

also,

Is there anyone in any field more overrated than rick rubin?

^^^this

Statement on Black Sabbath Album & Tour: Los Angeles, CA – February 2, 2012

Dear Sabbath Fans, Fellow Musicians and Interested Parties, At this time, I would love nothing more than to be able to proceed with the Black Sabbath album and tour. However, I am unable to continue unless a "signable" contract is drawn up; a contract that reflects some dignity and respect toward me as an original member of the band. Last year, I worked diligently in good faith with Tony, Ozzy and Geezer. And on 11/11/11, again in good faith, I participated in the L.A. press conference. Several days ago, after nearly a year of trying to negotiate, another “unsignable” contract was handed to me. Let me say that although this has put me in some kind of holding pattern, I am packed and ready to leave the U.S. for England. More importantly, I definitely want to play on the album, and I definitely want to tour with Black Sabbath. Since the news of Tony's illness, and the understanding that the band would move production to the U.K., I've spent everyday getting to or living in a place of readiness to leave. That involves something of a task, and as I've tried to find out what's going on with the U.K. sessions, I've realized that I've been getting "the cold shoulder" (and, I might add, not for the first time). Feeling somewhat ostracized, my guess is as of today, I will know nothing of what'shappening unless I sign "the unsignable contract." The place I'm in feels lousy and lonely because as much as I want to play and participate, Ialso have to stand for something and not sign on. If I sign as-is, I stand to lose my rights, dignity and respectability as a rock musician. I believe in freedom and freedom of speech. I grew up in a hard rock/metal band. We stood for something then, and we played from the heart with honesty and sincerity. I am in the spirit of integrity, far from the corporate malady, I am real and honest, fair and compassionate. If I'm replaced, I have to face you, the beloved Sabbath fans. I hope you will not hold me responsible for the failure of an original Black Sabbath lineup as promoted. Without fault finding, I want to assure everyone that my loyalty to Sabbath is intact. So here I am. I lay my truth down before you. I'm good to go IF I get a “signable” contract. I don't want to let anyone down, especially Black Sabbath and all the Sabbath fans. You know I love you. It would be a sad day in Rock if this current situation fell to the desires of a few. My position is not greed-driven. I'm not holding out for a "big piece" of the action (money) like some kind of blackmail deal. I’d like something that recognizes and is reflective of my contributions to the band, including the reunions that started fourteen years ago. After the last tour I vowed to never again sign on to an unreasonable contract. I want a contract that shows some respect to me and my family, a contract that will honor all that I've brought to Black Sabbath since its beginning. That's the story so far. Stay safe and stay strong. I love every single one of you. --Bill Ward

Go Bill

I can't believe the Osbourne camp would try to take advantage of any situation. They never do that.

Not at all surprised, but fuck this really bums me out. If I lose my chance to see these guys because of Osbourne dickishness I'll be so pissed off.

bill magill to thread

I mean, I'm 100% behind Bill Ward assuming what he is saying is true, but I was really excited for this album and tour.

I'd be really surprised if this is anything else but Sharon's machinations. This is the same people that OVERDUBBED out the bass and drums on Ozzy's first album to keep from paying royalties.

maybe they could just avoid Osbourne altogether and get Ian Gillan back in the band.

Watch, the tour and album will end up being Ozzy + Black Label Society as his backing band or some shit.

This happened the last time they reunited. Exact same thing, this is total deja vu. Ward ended up playing.

Count me in the Ward camp here. Embarrassing.

Iommi and Butler need to show some stones here. Back your old mate. We were promised the original Black Sabbath.

need to know exactly what it is in the contract that Ward doesn't like tbh

Probably giving up publishing or something like that. The original Sabs all shared writing credits for all songs.

^^^

difficult not to suspect Sharon in this

If Ward does end up playing, I'm sure Sharon will just man the sound booth to turn him down before pelting him with dozens of eggs at the end of each show.

It is my hope that tomorrow it will turn out that Bill gets to play and no one will ever really know the details of the contract or who was behind it sharon.

This is obviously Sharon and her lapdog Ozzy.

RIP Dio. Bring back Heaven and Hell with Bruce Dickinson or somebody, because this Sabbath thing seems to be toast.

Or the Gillan lineup as was mentioned above, maybe Ward would be up for that one. Or Bev Bevan.

how about Tony 'Nyan Cat' Martin?

Absolutely not. Fuck that guy.

We were saddened to hear yesterday via Facebook that Bill declined publicly to participate in our current Black Sabbath plans...we have no choice but to continue recording without him although our door is always open... We are still in the UK with Tony. Writing and recording the new album and on a roll... See you at Download!!!

- Tony, Ozzy and Geezer

fuck 'em

No band gets great without a great drummer. Ward is certainly no exception.

I'd be really surprised if this is anything else but Sharon's machinations. This is the same people that OVERDUBBED out the bass and drums on Ozzy's first album to keep from paying royalties.

iirc, Ozzy didn't even know about this until months after the reissues were in the stores.

Wouldn't be surprised if Ozzy gets to the studio the first day and says, "Wait, where's Bill?"

It'll be Vinny Appice then, more than likely.

If Bill is sitting on his bed in LA patiently waiting for the taxi to call, he'll be there a long time. His transparent effort to get fans to persuade Ozzy & Co. to support Ward is likely to backfire, especially when all focus is now on Tony Iommi’s treatment for lymphoma, making a new record, and healing old wounds. Perhaps Ward has a point but to the general public, it sounds like sour grapes. At this rate, Ward is likely to be spending the summer watching highlights of the Sabbath reunion on MTV. But in all the fracas, we did get a confirmation Black Sabbath plans to be at the Download festival. Got sticks? Stay tuned. And Go Tony!

http://www.epiphone.com/News/Features/News/2012/Black-Sabbath-Seeks-New-Drummer.aspx

Well, fuck you Sharon. Does anyone know if theres any foundation that Iommi supports? After this bullshit, I think I'm going to take the money I would have spent on the new album and tickets for the tour and donate it in Iommi's name instead of giving one more fucking cent to an organization that would allow a founding member to be treated with such disregard. Awful.

iirc, Ozzy didn't even know about this until months after the reissues were in the stores.

Wouldn't be surprised if Ozzy gets to the studio the first day and says, "Wait, where's Bill?

Very likely otm.

alternately: "Wait, where's who's Bill?"

guilty lol

i really hate entertainment journalists who feign to speak for 'the general public'

Haha, yeah, the "general public" I'm in touch with is squarely on Ward's side on this.

Sharon has some pretty solid connections with Epiphone. A week ago she hosted their roast of Zakk Wylde.

i also like the "got sticks?" thing as if they band will just hold open auditions to any dickhead with a kit

God, i'm sure that was a laugh riot.

xpost

i also like the "got sticks?" thing as if they band will just hold open auditions to any dickhead with a kit

To preempt any sidetracks here, I am in no way equating the state and/or talent of the two bands here, but that is exactly what the Pumpkins did to replace Chamberlin to pretty much disastrous results.

Really? Seems like such a waste of time when you could just put out feelers to established dudes

Yeah, I have no idea why they did it, but Corgan held open auditions (at fucking Guitar Center too, iirc) and ended up going with some 19 year-old kid.

GENIUS

Definitely the smartest way to replace the most talented dude you've ever had in your band.

I would hope that any established drummers steer clear of this out of respect for Ward.

Then again, Ozzy's touring band didn't have any such qualms about jumping on board with Overdubs Of A Madman.

or joining Metallica lol

Yeah, this has 'Tommy Clueftos Joining Sabbath' all over it.

Yeah, I have no idea why they did it, but Corgan held open auditions (at fucking Guitar Center too, iirc) and ended up going with some 19 year-old kid

that's becuz only a 19 year old nobody wouldn't already be aware what a colossal dickhole billy is?

infinite dickhole

that's becuz only a 19 year old nobody wouldn't already be aware what a colossal dickhole billy is?

Fair point.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPoomwdNZeY&feature=player_embedded

Haha, my wife's guitly pleasure is America's Got Talent and I usually get roped into watching it with her, those guys were fun to watch the year they were on.

At this rate, Ward is likely to be spending the summer watching highlights of the Sabbath reunion on MTV

Highlights, MTV, lol

God, people pretending there's been no Black Sabbath original line-up reunion in 30 years are worse than people pretending Van Halen hasn't toured with DLR in the same span.

Who is "pretending" that?

Well, the Black Sabbath tour has now been replaced by an "Ozzy & Friends" tour, which just makes me think of a line from the movie King of New York: "Friends? That cocksucker ain't got no friends."

AVClub:

The rest of the European tour will be rebranded as “Ozzy and Friends,” featuring the intermittently cognizant Osbourne and a bunch of special guests (including Sabbath bassist Geezer Butler and guitarist Zakk Wylde), which is kind of like being told you’re getting Black Sabbath but then instead just getting Ozzy Osbourne and a bunch of other people, which is pretty much exactly what Black Sabbath fans have been getting for the past 34 years.

Except when they got, you know, Black Sabbath.

Yeah, that's a weird statement. That said, at least Ozzy is honoring the dates. They could've just canceled. Axl Rose has canceled shows/tours for way less (he got a hangnail! He poured orange juice in his cereal instead of milk!)

yeah #shotsfired at Dio too >:(

Message From Tony

Hiya,

A little update on how it's all going:

Well, I've had the last dose of chemotherapy so hopefully my body will start to get back to normal soon, the steroids were the worse. I've now got three weeks of radiotherapy coming up which I'm told can be very tiring so we'll see.

A big thanks to Ozzy and Geezer for coming over to England, it was a big incentive for me, we managed to work most days and have some great new tracks.

And, importantly thanks again for your kind messages, hope to be seeing you soon.

- Tony

Good news, but where is Ward?

Still in the States, I assume.

Classic in theory, dud to actually listen to for more than 2-3 songs in a row

Poliopolice wrote this on thread Islands (Ex-Unicorns project) on board I Love Music on Mar 7, 2012
pitchfork gave it a good review

Poliopolice wrote this on thread Genesis: "Land Of Confusion" on board I Love Music on Mar 16, 2012
this song kicks ass all over the place

Poliopolice wrote this on thread MTV Buzz Bin: Volume 1 - The Zen of Buzz Clips: From a Guy Named Buzz on board I Love Music on Mar 20, 2012
gin blossoms by a country mile, fuckaz

Hooray! Someone learned how to use search.

By the way, 3 posts do not completely encapsulate someone's tastes, and to think that you have found damning evidence against my ability to appreciate art suggests that you have bought into a rather silly fallacy that you can generalize heavily about someone by using a very small number of data points.

http://www.essexma.org/Pages/EssexMA_Police/PoliceCar.gif

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7e/Rooseveltinwheelchair.jpg/270px-Rooseveltinwheelchair.jpg

: )

So Black Sabbath has been confirmed for Lollapalooza this summer (which, given past years, means they won't be playing another Chicago show this year), and the promoters are swearing that all four original members will be there.

wut

That's encouraging.

Having seen Black Sabbath (original line-up plus replacement model) in (relatively) recent years, plus a few Ozzy solo sets, I fear this show will find the band at ... off-peak. But I bet the crowd will be a blast.

Hey, even doddering old Black Sabbath would be a treat for me, since I've never seen them before. It'll be interesting to see how this plays out. Wouldn't be the first time a Chicago promoter was blowing smoke.

I saw the originals in '06 and they were incredible, and the Dio model at Radio City and the subsequent tour and they were incredible. Granted that's a few years ago, and as everbody knows I'm a little biased, but you definitely have to go.

I really hope Ward is involved, its not the same if he's not

The question is not whether they're booked, it's whether they'll ... make it. When I saw them years ago I thought Ward looked half-dead (because he had just recovered from a heart attack, for sure). Ozzy was a mess, barely hitting his cues. And now with Iommi's deal, I dunno. I hope they pull it off.

Ward was good in '06 post heart attack. The weak link was totally Ozzy, which was the case in their heyday as well. 70's era Sabbath was great due to a combination of cruashing riffage combined with a killer bass-drums pocket. Elmer Fudd could have sung for them, I wouldnt have cared

there's a lollapalooza this summer? lol

there's a lollapalooza every summer!

lol

I'm just pissed that the Afghan Whigs are on the bill, which means they won't play somewhere I'd rather see them and will force me to find a way to go just for them. Ideally on Black Sabbath day.

yeah, its sort of annual ritual of disappointment, looking over the Lollapalooza schedule seeing 2-3 bands out of hundreds that I really want to see, then realizing I'm not going to pay ridiculous money to see those 2-3 bands but also realizing they won't be playing anywhere else around town any time soon

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTOyhv2-btg

What an incredible and underrated song

I did a little Audacity work and mixed the drum & bass tracks for three tunes ("After Forever", "Sweet Leaf", "Into the Void"), check 'em out here:

http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?bczmt70ehltjq05

Original Black Sabbath drummer Bill Ward made a statement confirming that "a final effort to participate in the upcoming Sabbath shows a failure to agree has continued."

Writing on his website, the drummer said.

"At this time I have to inform you that I won't be playing with Black Sabbath at the Birmingham gig dated May 19th, 2012, nor will I be playing at Download on June 10th, 2012. Further, I will not be playing at Lollapalooza on August 3, 2012.

It is with a very sad heart that I bring you this news. I am sincerely passionate in my desire to play with the band, and I'm very, very sorry that it's fallen to this. This statement is even more painstaking to write, as I was particularly excited to play alongside Tony Iommi after the recent treatments he underwent. I wanted that to become a reality.

He goes on to say:

"Earlier in April 2012, I'd been asked to participate "minimally" in the Download festival. I believe I'd been offered no more than three songs to play while another drummer presumably played the rest of the show with Black Sabbath. I was not willing to participate in that offer. I was not prepared to watch another drummer play a Sabbath set, while I was to play only three songs."

disgusting. fuck osborne and fuck the rest of sabbath for going along with this. it's a disgrace.

ozzy's just a pathetic joke at this point.

I'd been offered no more than three songs to play while another drummer presumably played the rest of the show with Black Sabbath. I was not willing to participate in that offer. I was not prepared to watch another drummer play a Sabbath set, while I was to play only three songs.

this is fucking ridiculous

lame.

yeah, indicates that they just wanted his name & endorsement for marketing purposes. bastards.

sharon to blame or all of them?

My wife likes to watch America's Got Talent (we all have our weaknesses) and, as a result of only seeing her on that show, thinks Sharon is just "the sweetest" and she rolls her eyes at me whenever I launch into a "Sharon is evil" tirade.

wow, that's messed up. is there some reason to think that Ward isn't physically capable of playing the drums for these gigs?

sharon to blame or all of them?

it might be sharon's idea, but the other three are willing to go along with it.

i don't know. maybe bill ward's an intolerable person to be in a band with. i find it hard to believe though, and the osbournes have previous when it comes to fucking over their rhythm sections.

maybe bill ward's an intolerable person to be in a band with.

^never met him, but by all accounts he's one of the best guys in rock. Fuck the osbournes, and fuck iommi and butler for going along with this shit. This is one of the most insulting things Ive ever heard of. 3 songs????? It's Bill fucking Ward!

BLACK SABBATH Statement:

We have decided not to make any detailed comment on Bill's latest statement. There are two sides to every story. We have been working hard at rehearsals making excellent progress after Tony's treatments and we have engaged a substitute drummer for the forthcoming shows. See you at Download.

--Black Sabbath, 5/17/12

in other words bill is telling the truth and they cant come up with a truthful credible reply

^^^

Didn't they have an agreement (similar to the Sex Pistols' one) where it's not "Black Sabbath" if it's not the four originals? (witness the release of the RJDio fronted live album where even that's who Black Sabbath was at the time, they couldn't name the band on that CD?)...

or was it 'verbal'..

I've seen the original Black Sabbath, plus "Black Sabbath" with Mike Bordin from Faith No More on drums, so no. Also, there have been lots of other Black Sabbath permutations on the road. Always business, never personal.

but then sharon bought the rights to the name from Iommi.

When did that happen? Because I don't think there's ever been a Black Sabbath minus Iommi. In fact, I want to say that Iommi is the only one who has never been replaced in Black Sabbath, and weren't there lawsuits regarding the name as recently as a year or two ago?

presumably when ozzy rejoined late 90s. thats why dio sabbath couldnt use the name

tbf for a huge % of the population the black sabbath name = ozzy, so billing the dio band as "heaven & hell" was probably a good idea just for bringing in just the audience that wanted to see that lineup, which was large enough to suggest the name change didn't hurt them

tbf for a huge % of the population the black sabbath name = ozzy

^then a huge % of the population is idiots who don't know a fucking thing about what they are talking about.

For me Bill Ward>>>>>>>>Ozzy

When did that happen? Because I don't think there's ever been a Black Sabbath minus Iommi. In fact, I want to say that Iommi is the only one who has never been replaced in Black Sabbath, and weren't there lawsuits regarding the name as recently as a year or two ago?

― Josh in Chicago, Friday, May 18, 2012 8:48 AM (21 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Correct, the settlement on the use of the name was very recent.

Ward apparently was not a party to the settlement, if all this crap is hitting the fan.

So, what constitutes a bottom-line Black Sabbath now? Ozzy, and Sharon on Bongos?

summary:

On 2 February 2012, Ward publicly announced that he would not participate in the Black Sabbath reunion unless he was given a "signable contract." The following day, the other group members announced they had "no choice but to continue recording without him," but also said "our door is always open" for Ward to return to the band.[13] In February 2012, the band announced that they will not continue the world tour but will play the Download festival in June 2012. Instead of Black Sabbath, the tour will feature Osbourne and a revolving line-up of guest musicians, billed as "Ozzy and Friends".

On 11 April 2012, Lollapalooza founder Perry Farrell announced that Black Sabbath will perform at Lollapalooza 2012. Farrell said this will be Black Sabbath's only American concert in 2012.[151]

Some time in late April 2012, Bill Ward was added back to the band's official Facebook page as a member of Black Sabbath.

On May 15, 2012, Bill Ward posted on his website that "after a final effort to participate in the upcoming Sabbath shows a failure to agree has continued" and that he would not be participating in the reunion shows, but "will remain with an open mind and a position of willingness to negotiate 'signable' terms with Sabbath’s representatives in the future."[152]

Misread part of the above as the tour will feature Osbourne and a revolting line-up of guest musicians.

maybe members of Velvet Revolter will be involved

It would be so cool if Ward got to sing for Velvet Revolver.

Fuck THIS shit:

https://twitter.com/#!/basementgalaxy/status/203532603314274305

Oh this is priceless, the new Black Sabbath website has old photos of the band with Bill Ward cropped out. Classy! http://t.co/HnzKrrrY

Related:

https://twitter.com/#!/basementgalaxy/status/203533198871887873

Sabbath fans are really letting the band have it on Facebook. As if the band cares what they think. http://t.co/2y1ASsgu

man that's a shame. I just watched Classic Albums: Paranoid and Ward came off as the coolest dude. I hate to see musical vendettas.

It's only a matter of time before they announce new remasters with Ward's drums replaced. Geezer and Tony are assholes for going along with the Osbourne clan down this path.

omg @ that website

unbelievable

definitely sinking into "more ridiculous than spinal tap" territory.

not cropped out here
http://www.blacksabbath.com/history.html

kelly o's still growing out her mustache to shoot the new band photos

I'd rather see a reunion of the Tyr era band than this shit. this is not Black Sabbath by any stretch. They wont be getting any of my dough.

As for this weekend's warm-up show in Birmingham, the drummer only learned of the concert at the end of April, from an online advert. "I had no prior knowledge of the date and location, and I felt totally excluded." After about a week of back and forth, Ward claims he received the following offer: "Come to the UK, play for free and see how the first show goes."

"I was tempted," he said. "Playing for free would not have been a problem for me, but … I can't come to Birmingham and 'see what happens' knowing there is a risk of not being able to play Download or Lollapalooza … I had to say 'no' to Birmingham on the principle of wanting to play all the shows."

While Ward maintains an "open mind" about future work with Black Sabbath, the 2012 negotiations seem to have reached a dead end. "I hold no malice or resentment towards the other band members," he said. "My fight has never been with them. I'll love them forever. In my opinion, nobody wins this time; the band doesn't win; the fans for an original lineup don't win. Nobody wins, nobody. Even the ones who thought they did."

Arik 'Moonhawk' Roper talking about the Hipgnosis sleeve art to Technical Ecstasy in the current issue of WIRE = classic.

link?

Bill Ward seems like a guy with a pretty great attitude.

"Come to the UK, play for free and see how the first show goes."

This is unbelievable.

yeah. dude is putting on a brave front but I can't imagine wanting to play with those other assholes after this kind of treatment.

I hope he gets some good guest spots or something out of this. Like, if I had a famous band, I would be all like "Bill Ward, you want to play with us?" right now.

Can I play devil's advocaat for a mo?

This sounds like they have a problem with Bill's ability...

Maybe I could buy that if the Osbornes already didn't have an EXTENSIVE history of fucking people over and doing extremely childish things (like cropping people out of photos, erasing them from albums, throwing eggs at them onstage etc etc etc). As soon as I saw the images popped up in their website with Ward cropped out, it was confirmation enough for me.

When I saw Sabbath 13 years ago I had a major problem with Ozzy's ability, he still seems to be there though...

Although yes it wouldn't surprise me if Bill has trouble keeping up these days.

this is pitiful bush league fuckery that has the Osbournes' fingerprints all over it

This sounds like they have a problem with Bill's ability...

― Mark G, Friday, May 18, 2012 3:33 PM (28 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Have you heard Ozzy recently?

And if that was the case, why not talk to Bill and reach some sort of detente behind closed doors. Give him a golden parachute or something in return for saying he's "retired". Dont tell the guy he can show up and play for free as a tryout-its Bill fucking Ward!

its Bill fucking Ward!

― One Way Ticket on the 1277 Express (Bill fucking Magill)

I mentioned upthread that when I saw Sabbath a decade ago, I thought Ward was having trouble keeping up. This was after his return from his heart attack. But then, he did keep up, so I'm not sure what the prob is. Maybe he got worse? But of course, if he couldn't do it, it's not a "I think I can, I think I can" situation. If he couldn't do it he couldn't fake it, so it seems unlikely that performance is an issue.

Geezer and Ozzy have it easy. All Geezer has to do is sleep through his rote-simple (but don't get me wrong, still awesome!) riffs, and Ozzy just has to be subtle about peeing his pants.

at least he's being subtle about something for once

By "subtle" I meant "subtly dumping buckets of water over himself to hide the fact that he is incontinent."

I don't think it's a secret I like these guys a little bit. This kind of stupidity really bothers me. But I'm an idiot for thinking it's not about money at this point.

this is fucking infuriating bullshit

I'd find some satisfaction, at least, in how hated Sharon Osbourne is in the metal community, if not for the fact that so many housewives love her now

Ever since the Iron Maiden debacle, Sharon has had no cred at all.

cause she had so much before?

for exasperating lols go find the few defenders of this move on Black Sabbath's Facebook page, including one especially aggro clueless dude who opines that "the drummer [is] the most expendable position in any band" - lol anyone who believes this knows literally nothing about bands

couldn't resist

http://whatdrummer.tumblr.com/

Geezer Butler sez...

Hmmmm...he sorta wins me over with the "stay frosty".

That Geezer bit is total bullshit. Key takeaway:

He hadn’t told any one of us he was having contractual problems, and frankly those things are worked out between our representatives, and never between the four of us let alone in public.

So basically the band, not surprisingly, is in Fleetwood Mac lockdown land, where the members don't talk to each other, and every member has its own manager, each looking out for their client's best interests. That's fine, but on that count Geezer's take is so disingenuous. He likely has no idea how much Bill may have been getting hosed, or maybe how much more he was slated to make than Bill. He has no idea what Bill's contract looked like, or exactly what Bill was offered. He says Bill was asking an "unreasonable" amount, but maybe that "unreasonable" amount was much less than his. Maybe the contract severely limited Bill's rights, or curtailed his potential participation, seeing how it seems the other three had been planning this "reunion" with either no or another drummer all along.

The good thing about being in the dark is that it allows you to write what Geezer wrote with this falsely objective tone. The fact that he plays Tony's condition and this "charity" show for sympathy is a further bullshit red flag.

via Alex in NYC

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m4bpzukgJA1qaxybpo1_500.jpg

Yeah, the whole "We never talk to each other about these things; why didn't he talk to us about this?" angle gives it a distinct whiff of bullshit.

i've still only ever heard 'iron man' and 'paranoid'. and since it power gets on my tits when singers follow the guitar lines PRECISELY, without bothering to come up with a vocal melody, i've explored no further.

ignorance is never anything to crow about, y'know
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4zlAd_eXjM

yeah theres enough people with that shtick on ilm

As you may expect, a one off show at Donnington Festival (Download) costs an absolute fortune to stage, involving over 50 people, transport, air fares, hotels, meals, agents, promotors, accountants, lawyers etc,

pfffffffffbbbtt fuck off Geezer

I do like that lawyers are exempt from the category of 'people'

Geezer, doing it for the people.

Josh, I wanna know why Kot isn't writing about this. Since the C3 promoters made a very explicit point to state that the headliner would be "all four original members". like the guy, but he slobs at Lolla's knob every year.

I think it just happened a couple of days ago, right? I bet it shows up, but DeRo is a bigger bee on Perry's bonnet.

Wonder if E3 will do the right thing and offer refunds to the five people who would take them.

How was the Birmingham show, er, charity event received?

Answer: well-received. Setlist:

INTO THE VOID
UNDER THE SUN
SNOWBLIND
WAR PIGS
WHEELS OF CONFUSION
ELECTRIC FUNERAL
BLACK SABBATH
THE WIZARD
BEHIND THE WALL OF
SLEEP
NIB
FAIRIES WEAR BOOTS
LORD OF THIS WORLD
TOMORROW’S DREAM
SWEET LEAF
SYMPTOM OF THE
UNIVERSE
IRON MAN
DIRTY WOMEN
CHILDREN OF THE
GRAVE
SABBATH BLOODY
SABBATH
PARANOID

Damn good setlist.

Jesus. You sure can't fuck with that setlist. my god

"Wheels of Confusion" for fucks sake

A ridiculously great setlist...and no Bill Ward. So mind boggling.

any money this is how The Stone Roses gigs end up.

If the Stone Roses ended up doing nothing but Black Sabbath covers that would be kinda amazing.

Maybe they can get Ward to sit in on drums.

There has been a long storied history of old classic rock drummers somehow getting with younger bands. Ginger Baker in Masters of Reality, Paul Thompson in Concrete Blonde. Um ...

Kenney Jones played on a Primal Scream record.

Bone Thugs 'N Harmony and Phil Collins amirite

Mo Tucker with the cruddy indie band that she toured with about 12 years ago? so bland and non-descript that I can't remember their name and can't be bothered to google. Only time I've seen Mo, though, and she was so sweet. @ the Empty Bottle

She did something with Half Japanese, didn't she?

Mick Fleetwood played on that one Matthew Sweet record.

nah, wasn't Half Jap .. i actually did buckle and check Mo's wiki and the shit isn't even mentioned there :-/

Mike Joyce was briefly in Suede.

Moe worked w/Magnet.

Elvin Jones toured with Hood

ok not really

ah, Magnet. google says that must have been it. god what a slog that show was. Seeing Mo at the Empty Bottle was super great, tho!!

Response To Geezer’s Statement

Posted on May.20, 2012 under Black Sabbath

Dear Sabbath Fans and Musicians,

I have read Geezer’s statement of May 19, 2012 titled “Heavy Heart.” Out of respect for the Birmingham gig, I wanted to wait 24 hours before releasing this statement. There are some points he brought up which I want to respond to.

1) I had indeed notified Ozzy, Tony and Geezer, well before my first public statement, that I was having contractual difficulties.

2) I came out into a public forum to be accountable to the fans primarily, and to say at a public level there’s a problem. The band members stopped talking and corresponding with me some time ago, with the exception of a nice letter from Tony on my birthday. Prior to that, Geezer and I were corresponding, but that stopped abruptly in late February after I emailed a specific question to him.

3) In my statement of May 15, I clearly stated I would play Birmingham for free. That was not a problem – charity or otherwise.

4) My Download fee was not an extravagant amount. Originally, when Download was part of a full tour, I had asked for a decent fee. More recently, as we were negotiating just Download/Birmingham and Lollapalooza, I told my attorney that I would accept the proposed small Download fee, but there were other parts of the offer that were unsatisfactory.

I will continue to be honest and respectful towards the band and our fans. I will also confront any untruths about me, and any fault finding missions aimed at me that come to my attention.

I hope the band and the fans had a good gig in Brum.

Stay safe/stay strong.
Bill Ward

No Supernaut, no credibility.

Bill's statements totally pass the smell test imho

You realise that eventually Universal will run out of semi-dormant or struggling record labels to buy, and will start buying up semi-dormant or struggling 'Legacy' band incorporations?

And that by the year 2201, Morrissey will be the sole member of Black Sabbath?

That setlist rules. No Supernaut though, which is weird, especially if they are playing Under the Sun and Tomorrow's Dream. Play those 3 and Cornucopia, and you can call it the Vol. 4 Tour.

this is true: "3) In my statement of May 15, I clearly stated I would play Birmingham for free. That was not a problem – charity or otherwise."

Still with Bill here.

who sat in for ward at birmingham?

Ozzy's drummer.

The Stone Roses would play Supernaut. Top buzz.

well, you can check out what the ward-less sabbath sounded like here: http://bigozine2.com/roio/?p=1103

I'm sure they sounded just fine. I've interviewed Tommy Clufetos (the sub drummer) and he says he strives to play old songs in a familiar manner without changing the arrangements or getting all crazy. Prior to working with Ozzy, he was Rob Zombie's drummer, and before that he played with Alice Cooper and Ted Nugent.

But there was never any question of that. They could find a million people to play these songs; they're generally not that challenging. Ironically, only Ozzy can't be replaced. But a reunion is a reunion, and if they're not all there, it is not a reunion.

It's a farce. Fuck Tommy Clufetos

anybody who doesn't have a fuck tommy clufetos tatttoo by this time next week is posing

post your pics

I shouldn't skim. I thought aero wrote "anyone who doesn't fuck tommy clufetos by this time next week is posing". If you miss the tattoo part it seems overly ambitious.

only the most kvlt will fuck tommy clufetos

impale him on your blackened painis.

I thought that said blackened paninis for a minute and didn't see how that was tr00 or KVLT.

fucking a panini machine would be metal as hell though.

Only if it was the devil's panini machine.

sick sick sex.

NEW ALBUM NEWS

Nude album nudes.

No thank you.

I'm sure I'll give it at least one listen, but it's very fair to say I'm not expecting much.

I have to say the Rubin treatment is the only possibility of this being good but my expectations are low

Had a brief discussion w/Adrien yesterday re the album title - my theory is that 13 counts the 8 albums with Ozzy, the 3 with Dio (including Dehumanizer) and Born Again. Sorry, Glenn Hughes and Tony Martin - you don't count.

What's rubin's track record for these late-in-the game comeback jobs? I'm assuming the first Cash one would be at the top, but a poll might be interesting.

His work on Ballbreaker is tremendous. Easily the best-produced post-Lange AC/DC record.

I like Ballbreaker. I also like Death Magnetic a whole lot, though.

"He's just a vibe merchant, really. He vibes you up. He's not one who gets involved hands-on," Iommi said. "He leaves it to you to do it and he sort of says, 'Yeah, I like it,' you know, or, 'I don't like it.'"

In Shut Up and Sing it's evident that Rubin didn't even set foot in the studio for the Dixie Chicks' Taking The Long Way. They show up at his house and play him what they've done so far. He says "Nice chorus" or "That sounds good." The only reasonable conclusion one could draw is that he's running a con job. Coincidentally or not, the production on that record is abysmal.

Rubin produced the third Slipknot album, and their singer, Corey Taylor, said this about that in 2011:

"There are some people who would love for me to toe the party line, which is basically, 'Working with Rick Rubin was a very enriching experience.' Let me give you the fucking truth of it: Rick Rubin showed up for 45 minutes a week. Rick Rubin would then, during that 45 minutes, lay on a couch and have a mic brought in next to his face so he wouldn't have to move...The Rick Rubin of today is a thin, thin, thin shadow of the Rick Rubin that he was. He is overrated, he is overpaid, and I will never work with him again as long as I fucking live."

Jakob Dylan also laid on the Rubin hate in a recent WTF interview.

you lazy for this one rick

Nice to finally hear someone call Rubin out. Really seems like he's been coasting on his rep for a while. But it benefits both parties: bands get the "cred" (such as it is) and resulting uptick in sales (however small) of having Rubin's name on their record (sound apparently being a secondary concern), and Rubin gets the dough.

xp

This has been the deal w/Rubin forever and forever - can he actually engineer at all?

I assume (perhaps naively) that he must have some rudimentary engineering knowledge, at the very least.

I wouldn't think he was overrated if he was a serious non-engineering motivator a la Guy Stevens or Kit Lambert. But "hm, good chorus" does not production make.

iirc in that Jay-Z doc RR was in there making beats like he did in the 80s. but as far as having any hands-on involvement when making a record means putting mics in front of instruments and putting hands on the mixing board, yeah.

lots of bands have started doing an album with Rubin and then fired him or parted ways to finish it w/o him: U2, Weezer Crosby Stills & Nash, Velvet Revolver, Hot Hot Heat

On those first four Danzig albums, he's producer on the first few, "executive producer" on the fourth one. Either way, he tends to use great studios and obviously hires some excellent engineers. But yeah, Reign in Blood was a long time ago.

I hope he can help Sabbath not sound overproduced. The Heaven & Hell record was perfect. I don't believe this will be nearly as good as that was.

gonna need a lot of smoothing for Ozzy's vocals, and pitch correction.....Dio was still singing pretty incredibly on that H&H studio album, but yeah the production on that was perfect for what they were doing.

Rubin produced the third Slipknot album, and their singer, Corey Taylor, said this about that in 2011:

"There are some people who would love for me to toe the party line, which is basically, 'Working with Rick Rubin was a very enriching experience.' Let me give you the fucking truth of it: Rick Rubin showed up for 45 minutes a week. Rick Rubin would then, during that 45 minutes, lay on a couch and have a mic brought in next to his face so he wouldn't have to move...The Rick Rubin of today is a thin, thin, thin shadow of the Rick Rubin that he was. He is overrated, he is overpaid, and I will never work with him again as long as I fucking live."

― 誤訳侮辱, Sunday, January 13, 2013 3:41 PM (4 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this is kinda awesome tbh

Not if you're in the band, I would imagine.

yeah stories like that are great if you hate the musicians who had to watch their session go to shit I guess

Rick Rubin has been coasting on his Rubin-aura for a long-assed time. Half the people I hear that talk about how incredible he is usually have no recent examples when asked for reasons why.

(I did not like Death Magnetic, fwiw...)

New album news with Rubin producing does not surprise me. Someone liking Death Crapnetic does, though.

Not really a true successor to Never Say Die without Ward. Bill's been treated like shit

Instead of a fraud like rubin, they should just see if the guy who set the dials on Master of Reality is still alive and coherent. That's all they need.

If you really need a "vibe merchant" you should be playing golf and not wasting your time. I got a good name for a vibe merchant: Bill fucking Ward

I got a good name for a vibe merchant: Bill fucking Ward

*massive stadium-sized applause*

XD

you have to give them credit for finding a drummer with the same number of letters in his name as Bill, anyway

I hope the songs sound nothing like "Psycho Man"

Nude album nudes.

― Ned Raggett, Sunday, January 13, 2013 12:34 PM (Yesterday

Ned, it's January and you haven't revived the "Symptom Of The Universe" thread yet! OR LAST YEAR, EITHER!!

The chopped and screwed mixes that NEEDED to happen!

http://livefromthekitchen.bandcamp.com/album/screwing-yourself-to-live-a-chopped-slowed-tribute-to-black-sabbath

Was Iommi conscious that he was using the Dorian mode or did it just evolve naturally?

these clowns

http://www.theguardian.com/music/2015/apr/09/black-sabbath-pull-out-of-farewell-show-in-japan

You know Tony Iommi is undergoing treatment for cancer right?

Megalomania

Obsessed/obsessed/obsessed/obsessed with sanity
Sting me! Suck me!

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/56/Black-Sabbath-Never-Say-Die.jpg

Listening to this for the first time. This record is weird and I love it.

Some of this is proto Radiohead proto Flaming Lips noise prog.

Never Say Die! is seriously great (and yes, pretty weird).

Junior's Eyes and particularly Air Dance are superb.

ozzy's vocals sound like simon le bon on the title track

not a criticism btw

Was Ozzy into Suicide? "Johnny Blaze" is very synthpunk.

https://youtu.be/ua8y9g7Upc8?t=2m41s

I like this fuzz wah guitar solo at 2:41 in "Shock Wave".

I know Geezer always wrote the lyrics did Ozzy even come up with melodies for this album?

Yes. Compare to the Ozzy-less version below when Dave Walker from Savoy Brown briefly joined as singer:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2ITDbIvjegg

Also, "Am I Going Insane" badly needs to be on this album instead of Sabotage.

One of ILM's greatest gifts is interesting me in listening to an album that I probably never would have otherwise. Parts of side 2 sound like King Crimson!

BLACK SABBATH extends "The End" tour into Fall 2016

Haha, these fuckers.

Should I go see them y/n

If y, is the likelihood of a good show better toward the beginning or end of this now-epic tour?

I think Ozzy has some sort of hearing issue because he's not singing on key at all anymore. He sounded great on the last album though, but anyway my vote is no. Actually its likely your last chance to see Iommi so if you haven't already you should go.

I've never seen them. My wife, a deep level Sabbath fan, thinks it will be a waste of money.

I saw them in 1999 had a great time and got to see Heaven and Hell (aka Dio Sabbath twice) and that was a treat too. One of my good friends who's a serious Ozzy defender says his singing is cooked.

I probably already did this but I recreated my "We Sail Through Endless Skies: The Quiet Black Sabbath Album" mixtape I put up on ILM years ago on Spotify:

https://open.spotify.com/user/matthelgeson/playlist/6KAiYTobROEmgOk0uDMQJh

I saw Sabbath (with Bill Ward) in 2004, and Heaven and Hell in 2007. Even though I like 13, and would like to hear them perform some of its songs live (I know they'll probably play one, if that), I'm done.

I heard plenty of talk of a new album guess that's not happening now? I'd be plenty excited for that. 13 surprised me.

he's not singing on key at all anymore.

Like some other singers - say, David Lee Roth, actually - singing on key has not been in the cards for decades. I've seen Ozzy solo several times, and Sabbath twice - once with Ward, once with Bordin - and every time Ozzy sounded off-key. But hey, it didn't really hurt the show, and he seemed to be having so much fun up there, what with his incontinence-disguising buckets of water and all.

Words cannot adequately express how happy I am to be able to spend a snow day tomorrow listening to these. Instrumental versions? Alternate lyrics? A "piano and slide guitar version" of "Lord of This World?" Are you fucking kidding me??

www.ultimateclassicrock.com/black-sabbath-deluxe-reissues/

Also - they'll do Volume 4, right??

It'll probably be in the next set. I wonder if the Never Say Die! one will come with a reprint of Ten Year's War?

Would buy deluxe versions of every Sabbath album up to and including TYR, but, man am I ever stoked to spend tomorrow with Paranoid and Master of Reality. We're expecting like 14" of snow and I have no plans to leave the house. I also have a nice stash of weed I've been saving for an occasion just like this.

These 'alternate' version things are generally only fun, imo, if you have memorized every cymbal crash, every second of the original album, and, well, my dad was playing these for me in the womb, and there are few albums I know better than the first four Sabbath LPs, so I'm really excited.

I guess, according to the comments section of that article linked above, these have been available in Europe for a few years. News to me!

Very much stoked to see 'The End' tomorrow. Already reports of Ozzy not making it through the whole set list. Hope the band bring their best to Chicago tomorrow. I was listening to Sabotage this weekend and constantly thinking, 'yeah, there's now way they can hit this energy level now, nor Ozzy hit these notes.' Maybe I'll be surprised.

Yeah, they've been around for a while. I don't think I need them. I bought the clamshell box with all the Ozzy albums in slimline cases a year or so ago, and that's all I need from those albums. If they've done anything to remaster Past Lives (which didn't sound great when it was on Sanctuary), I might pick that up, though. And I really want a copy of the tour-only CD they're selling with the four outtakes from 13.

according to a few boards, the CD was not available last night at the Omaha show, crossing my fingers for it to be a the merch table tomorrow

I can do without the instrumental versions but would like to hear the alternate lyrics to Planet Caravan.

Will these be Available on Spotify etc tomorrow?

the alt. version of planet caravan is sick

Not steaming or torrenting yet that I could find

I wish there was some well recorded live material of the original lineup. I think Past Lives/Live at Last is pretty much it.

The four studio tracks on The End are really good. It's weird; they put all the long, slow songs on 13 like all anybody wanted from Sabbath were doomy dirges; meanwhile, the deluxe edition, and now this disc, have the more stomping, riff-heavy tracks that really show them at their best.

I wish there was some well recorded live material of the original lineup. I think Past Lives/Live at Last is pretty much it.

― earlnash, Friday, January 22, 2016 8:40 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

sad to hear this. no good bootlegs?

pretty sure tylerw's blog has hosted at least a few really good bootlegs in the past - there's one from the sabbath bloody sabbath era which is killer and i'm almost certain i got it from doom and gloom from the tomb

also i think a paranoid-era one from a show in france? also awesome

I was wrong upthread...the deluxe editions were issued years ago. listened to the paranoid and MoR unreleased tracks...'solitude' in particular is really great. so quiet. and 'Caravan' is six minutes...extended soloing and vibing at the end.

It was pretty great, though not as good as Lollapalooza. "After Forever" and "Under The Sun/Every Day Comes And Goes" were surprise deep cuts, but I'd rather have heard "Hole In The Sky," "Symptom of the Universe" or even "Supernaut." It's The End tour but they'll be back in September, if one of them doesn't croak before then (I hope not!).

http://sfist.com/2016/06/09/mcdonalds-themed_black_sabbath_cove.php

unrelated: did they ever find Ozzy?

Plenty of tickets available in the $75 range for the PNC Bank Arts Center show in NJ (August 23). Still haven't convinced myself to take the plunge.

So these have now all been reissued. It's the 2012 remaster, I understand. Jimmywine: are you sure the outtakes / alternate takes are worth it?

https://twitter.com/BlackSabbath/status/761645536449536001

LOOK-ING-FOR-TO-DAYYYYYYYYYY!!!

The supernaut opening drum motif is a take on Hayes’ Shaft. Or is it the other way around ?

Songs That Start With This Hi-Hat Pattern

!
Thanks j

The s/t is 50 years old today and, by extension, metal as a whole.

Dayum

sabby birthday

greatest debut album?

Kory Grow's deep dive on the album from yesterday, interviewing all four band members and more folks besides, is essential

https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-features/black-sabbath-debut-album-heavy-metal-origin-interview-949070/

xp hmm, there are a few other serious contenders from that era (including In the Court of the Crimson King), but it's definitely up there.

And thanks for the link, Ned, I only read the other RS piece about their not-so-tacit jazziness.

That hi hat / ride cymbal swing motif can also be heard on the Wheels of Confusion intro and that song also evidences his behind the beat playing during the verses

Further RS piece specifically about the cover art.

https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-features/black-sabbath-cover-art-keef-keith-macmillan-interview-951578/

Enjoyed reading both of those articles, thanks.

Great article on the cover art of those first four albums... what a run!

(...and man, did their covers go seriously downhill afterwards, lol)

https://i.ibb.co/31pkFxn/PVZP71581659249.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/7KJm0Mh/SNhb-C1581659570.jpg

Lol

Never Say Die album art is fantastic

Paranoid artwork is terrible

yeah it sucks shit but it's iconic shit, i can't imagine it with another cover

Bingo. That said, maybe the original album title, War Pigs would have offset its awfulness somewhat.

Nothing against Ward, I love the guy, but imagine someone with true jazz chops on those extended instrumentals on the first album

No I'm good

Huh? Ward is awesome.

One of my favorite lines of inquiry. Not.

Ward is like Ginger Baker if Ginger Baker were as good as Ginger Baker thought he was.

They both lack precision and chops, I don’t see the shame in admitting that. They have other strengths

I wouldn't want to hear Black Sabbath with Elvin Jones or Art Blakey on drums and neither would you.

Thinking about Sabbath with Hal Blaine on drums now and it's doing my head in

I wouldn't want to hear Black Sabbath with Elvin Jones or Art Blakey on drums and neither would you.

They both lack precision and chops, I don’t see the shame in admitting that. They have other strengths

― calstars, Sunday, February 23, 2020 8:36 PM bookmarkflaglink

The idea that Sabbath would be better with a jazz drummer is lol

I believe this kind of substitution thought experiment is often applied to one of Ozzy's favorite bands.

I mean, seriously, if I thought Bill Ward sucked I would say so, but he's great, not just for Sabbath, but, well, especially for Sabbath. "The Wizard" for life, and you want jazz, that song swiiiiiiings.

(Elvin would be cool, too, but only if they replaced everyone else with the line-up of Sharrock's "Ask the Ages.")

The Wizard is a great example of a tune that would benefit from some precision and finesse. All that empty space in the verses

wtf dude

Man if only those Led Zepplelin albums had Michael Angelo Batio instead

Always thought Fun House would’ve sounded better with someone more like Victor Wooten on bass.

Are people seriously litigating the merits of BILL WARD as a drummer - not even as a drummer, he’s no Max Roach, no shit and thanks for sharing - but as the drummer on those Sabbath records, here? GTFO forever

Are people seriously litigating the merits of BILL WARD as a drummer - not even as a drummer, he’s no Max Roach, no shit and thanks for sharing - but as the drummer on those Sabbath records, here? GTFO forever

Sorry double post

Nothing against Ward, I love the guy, but imagine someone with true jazz chops on those extended instrumentals on the first album

This is one of the worst challops I've read on ILM, and I fucking love challops.

i guess technically it's a great challops, in that it is extremely challenging and requires you to re-examine your preconceptions

however, my preconceptions remain unchanged in this case because bill ward is a fucking monster and iommi/butler/ward are one of the greatest instrumental trios in rock

For maximum impact, said challop should have opened with ‘Nothing against Ozzy, I love the guy...’ Scat Sabbath ftw.

some people say my love, can it be true?
skibadeebeebopbow
skibadeeboo

calstars at 10:09 23 Feb 20

The Wizard is a great example of a tune that would benefit from some precision and finesse. All that empty space in the verses

EMPTY SPACE IS IMPORTANT

this is one for the ages, lord I wish Billy Cobham was endlessly jacking off paradiddles throughout the Wizard

Iommi was great but imagine if they had a guitar player with five complete fingers!

maybe just go listen to jazz ffs

best Black Sabbath lineup:
Paul Chambers
Gene Krupa
Kenny Burrell
Ronnie James Dio

Lol. Also
maybe just go listen to jazz ffs
^this

Iommi was great but imagine if they had a guitar player with five complete fingers!

if iommi's industrial accident was more serious he could have been a django-level jazz player, missed opportunity on his part imo

calstars at 10:09 23 Feb 20

The Wizard is a great example of a tune that would benefit from some precision and finesse. All that empty space in the verses

EMPTY SPACE IS IMPORTANT

this is one for the ages, lord I wish Billy Cobham was endlessly jacking off paradiddles throughout the Wizard

This is one of the worst challops I've read on ILM, and I fucking love challops.

You have my blessing.

I also want to say, having not checked in on this thread in a bit, reading the last dozen or so posts had me laughing until I cried, something that has not occurred for a long while, and certainly not in the last couple of months. It made me really appreciate the wit and love of music that i find here, and I thank you all for it.

Ward plays all over that empty space though (somewhat awkwardly)
― calstars, Monday, February 24, 2020 12:33 PM bookmarkflaglink

THEN IT'S NOT EMPTY SPACE

Well it would be, though, if Ward wasn’t playing

some people say my love, can it be true?
skibadeebeebopbow
skibadeeboo

― sorry for butt rockin (Neanderthal), Monday, February 24, 2020 9:53 AM (five months ago) bookmarkflaglink

this made my day

best Black Sabbath lineup:
Paul Chambers
Gene Krupa
Kenny Burrell
Ronnie James Dio

https://wickedworld.net/

50th anniversary Paranoid reissue, with quad mix and two 1970 concert recordings.

hmm. Sorry the link didn't copy correctly

https://img.tmstor.es/blacksabbath/66276-fb02dbf164975e0193063b3874665474.jpg

This is the vinyl (read: overpriced and sonically inferior) version of a CD box that came out in 2016.

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71TVIyDV3ML.jpg

You can trust Sabbath to keep on milking it

Paranoid 5LP Super Deluxe first two LPs feature the original album plus a Quadraphonic Mix.
The collection's final three LPs mark the official vinyl debut of two 1970 live performances. https://t.co/RxFLfHNSPm pic.twitter.com/5vjBkSLuPl

— BlackSabbath (@BlackSabbath) August 21, 2020

I'd like to hear the quadrophonic mix. But not enough to pay so much cash

I've heard the quad mix and it's groovy, but don't really see the point of "1974 Quad Mix of the album folded down to stereo". One of the things I dig about it is how it adds a bit of psychedelia: a guitars solo circles around the room, etc. I don't listen to 5.1 much but tend to prefer the "gimmicky" ones a bit more than those that just add a bit of tasteful atmosphere, though. (IIRC the quad mix was released as a 5.1 disc on one of the other numerous reissues of this record?)

Never been much of a Dr. Martens guy, but… I kinda want this:

https://www.drmartens.com/uk/en_gb/collaborations/black-sabbath

https://i.imgur.com/KsVteid.png

Lovely lads

Bill Ward's tights on the cover of Sabotage were the beginning of the end. Or maybe the end of the beginning.

so here are some of my favorite versions of the black sabbath song "planet caravan". a singular tune in sabbath's catalog, yes?

rondellus
adeline
the anomanon
big blood
novilunio
darkside
moon duo
hula hi-fi

any other versions you rate highly, lmk. i guess there's mercury rev's version, but it doesn't seem to add much to the original?

oh and the lyrics to the early alternate version are _so bad_. thank god they floyded it up some.

Yeah PC is a singular vibe in their canon. I feel like they tried to revisit it to some extent via “solitiude...” I will always remember the first time I heard it, climbing up the stairs to my cousins room in his big house

I'll post this again, my attempt to make Sabbath a weird psych band

https://open.spotify.com/playlist/6KAiYTobROEmgOk0uDMQJh?si=n_qOrOp4ThSewb2U_Z3k1Q&utm_source=copy-link

Supertzar? I guess it…doesn’t have drums

I guess by the time of Vol. 4, the Sabbath ballads like "Changes" were playing to the crowd more than the highly introverted quiet interludes on the earlier albums.

By contrast, "Planet Caravan" doesn't even sound like someone singing to themselves, it sounds like an unconscious act.

Picturing Ossie in the spotlight with a grand piano

"Here's a little number we like to call 'God Is Dead?'"

“This next one is the first track off our new album…”

that Moon Duo cover of "Planet Caravan" totally rules

I trust everyone has seen the live in Paris 1970 footage on youtube by now. Iron Man on that jesus fucking christ.

I’m sure there’s a thread about this very thing but the differential between the cover of Sabotage (aggressively terrible) vs the content (absolutely rad and on any given day could be my fave) is stark

I don't know what you're talking about LOL

https://dx72k0ec4onep.cloudfront.net/product/1616/282536311478247228-640x640-5414939920837.jpg

Home in the skyyy-iyyyy

Bill Ward did not know they were shooting the cover that day.

Ozzy looks great though.

6’ 6” in heels

has ilx ever polled black sabbath album covers?

for the record those tights are rad. versus who's the guy on the left in chino pants? is that geezer butler? dud. i mean they all look awful next to ozzy of course but bill is the second best looking guy on that cover, he's got this weird elfin energy that sums up sabbath's aesthetic really well

btw ums i have enjoyed that weird psych band sabbath comp you put together for... i don't know. probably more than a decade, now? but planet caravan is still in a class by itself.