Paul Simon's 'Graceland'

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Don't know if this has been done before, but...does the controversy over this album's production still resonate with anybody fifteen years on? Was it wrong at the time, and how does it look in light of subsequent events?

― dave q, Monday, 17 December 2001 01:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

what was the controversy again, dq? was it that Ladysmith Black Mambazo weren't paid for appearing on the album or something?

― rener, Monday, 17 December 2001 01:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

Paul Simon made the singers suck his dick

― Mike Hanle y, Tuesday, 18 December 2001 01:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

1 year passes...

ha!

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Wednesday, 20 August 2003 12:22 (9 years ago) Permalink

Hanle y's most delayed joke ever!

― Thy Lethal Zen Ned (Ned), Wednesday, 20 August 2003 14:18 (9 years ago) Permalink

1 month passes...

hehe, no what was the controversy though?

― Bob Shaw (Bob Shaw), Thursday, 25 September 2003 13:55 (9 years ago) Permalink

he took basic tracks belonging to musicians from an entirely different country and culture then without altering the music itself (as in the case of at least gumboots),
and put his own usual autobiographical noo-yawk lyrical spiel over the top and claim all credit on the sleeve. it's paul simon : graceland to the naked eye after all. that's the gist of it isn't it ?

obviously ladysmith black mambazo would have had a very different, way less succesful career without him. it did much to put 'world music' on the cd players and coffee tables of homes across middle engerland.

i dont like that record as a whole much, the one before (hearts and bones) and the one after (rhythm of the saints) especially are like waaaaaaay under-rated and fantastic. it has it's moments.

i was made to study graceland for GCSE music 4 years after it had been released which can't have helped.

― piscesboy, Thursday, 25 September 2003 14:23 (9 years ago) Permalink

Didn't it concern appropiation of African musical styles that he tried to pass off as world fusion in an attempt to give himself sole credit? I axe 'cuz I've never heard the album, 'cept for the singles.

― Francis Watlington (Francis Watlington), Thursday, 25 September 2003 14:24 (9 years ago) Permalink

Well, never mind. Question answered. Thanx, pisces.

― Francis Watlington (Francis Watlington), Thursday, 25 September 2003 14:25 (9 years ago) Permalink

I think you're wrong about the credit's piscesboys, I think he was quite scrupulous in that respect.

The real beef was that he was breaking the UN cultural embargo of South Africa at a time when apartheid was at it's height, and when political protest at it in the west was coming to a head. Doing so, he maybe didn't give explicit credence to Botha's regime but gave the impression of normalcy at a time when it was anything but.

― Billy Dods (Billy Dods), Thursday, 25 September 2003 14:35 (9 years ago) Permalink

Yeah, Billy, that was it.

― Jim Eaton-Terry (Jim E-T), Thursday, 25 September 2003 14:39 (9 years ago) Permalink

i dont like that record as a whole much, the one before (hearts and bones) and the one after (rhythm of the saints) especially are like waaaaaaay under-rated and fantastic. it has it's moments.

I remember at the time, Rhythm of the Saints got a very good response, but for some reason nobody talks about it now. I also think it's a much better record than Graceland.

― dleone (dleone), Thursday, 25 September 2003 14:52 (9 years ago) Permalink

I could not listen to Graceland if it weren't for the MEAN FRETLESS BASS PLAYING.

― Patrick South (Patrick South), Thursday, 25 September 2003 15:51 (9 years ago) Permalink

The most annoying thing about "Graceland" is how all the songs were improvised on top of the backing tracks. I mean, one of the world's greatest songwriter suddenly leaves most the songwriting process up to his backing musicians. That sucks!

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Thursday, 25 September 2003 21:33 (9 years ago) Permalink

yeah, especially when his backing musicians are the best fucking players in South Africa!

― M Matos (M Matos), Thursday, 25 September 2003 21:36 (9 years ago) Permalink

such outrage over authorship. none of you clever rock critics seem confused over the collaborative process behind the record. are you simply being outraged on behalf of those people who are being 'misled' by Simon's name on the cover?

Nearly 20 years later on, Ladysmith Black Mambazo's gotten a fair share of props. Clarify the problem with the album that got the spotlight shining in their direction beyond snarky one-liners, I'm interested.

― (Jon L), Thursday, 25 September 2003 21:49 (9 years ago) Permalink

I mean, one of the world's greatest songwriter suddenly leaves most the songwriting process up to his backing musicians.

hey geir, check allmusic. in the crucial cases, those 'backing musicians' got publishing. if you're so indignant, go learn their names.

http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&uid=CASS70305221425&sql=Al68e4j470way

― (Jon L), Thursday, 25 September 2003 22:07 (9 years ago) Permalink

I thought the big beef was that Paul Simon went to South Africa while South Africa was being shunned via (embargo|cultural blockage|sanctions) because of their runamuck Apartheid government?

― Lord Custos Omicron (Lord Custos Omicron), Thursday, 25 September 2003 22:15 (9 years ago) Permalink

From here: http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/singerunid/0d7f05eae3be3e5d4825698a00096233
The project and subsequent tour was bathed in controversy due to accusations (misconceived according to the United Nations Anti-Apartheid Committee) that Simon had broken the cultural boycott against South Africa. The success of the album in combining contrasting cross-cultural musical heritages was typical of a performer who had already incorporated folk, R&B, calypso and blues into his earlier repertoire. The album spawned several notable hits, 'The Boy In The Bubble' (with its technological imagery), 'You Can Call Me Al' (inspired by an amusing case of mistaken identity) and 'Graceland' (an oblique homage to Elvis Presley 's Memphis home).

and here: http://onyx.he.net/~hotmoves/LIC/dylan/ds2.html
However, in 1986 he was temporarily blacklisted by the African National Congress and United Nations for breaking the apartheid boycott of South Africa with "Graceland," which was inspired by South Africa dance music and featured the South African group Ladysmith Black Mambazo. But the album was both a critical and popular success, and received the Grammy for 1988 record of the year. More controversy hovered over his short-lived 1998 Broadway musical "Capeman," based on a '50s New York Puerto Rican gang member.

Discuss....

― Lord Custos Omicron (Lord Custos Omicron), Thursday, 25 September 2003 22:18 (9 years ago) Permalink

Billy already covered that

― cinniblount (James Blount), Thursday, 25 September 2003 22:21 (9 years ago) Permalink

Billy covered the accreditation issue too, I just wanted to grandstand for a second. I'm just a bit thinskinned on this whole concept of 'authorship'.

― (Jon L), Thursday, 25 September 2003 22:38 (9 years ago) Permalink

I mean good god, I don't even own this record. why the hell am I so angry? this board is fucking dangerous. ok off to drink some water maybe.

― (Jon L), Thursday, 25 September 2003 22:46 (9 years ago) Permalink

Daaaaaamn!
Not so weird thing: I didn't see Billy Dodds post.
Weird thing: We both used the word "beef" to bring it up.

― Lord Custos Omicron (Lord Custos Omicron), Thursday, 25 September 2003 22:48 (9 years ago) Permalink

deflate, not like I didn't have a valid point, but my response was completely out of proportion to geir and matos' fun jabs. not like you guys even mind, but apologies, I've been working 14 hour days this week and at this point it's fun losing it over anything... ok off to buy a copy of 'rhythm of the saints' or something...

― (Jon L), Thursday, 25 September 2003 23:36 (9 years ago) Permalink

my jab was at Geir, not you, so no worries

― M Matos (M Matos), Thursday, 25 September 2003 23:41 (9 years ago) Permalink

I like Adrian Belew's guitar noises on Boy in the Bubble, but otherwise the record GRATES, partially ruined by living in the Bay Area and the subsequent world music overexposure

― anthony kyle monday (akmonday), Friday, 26 September 2003 00:11 (9 years ago) Permalink

ah, one of the people sharing their iTunes libraries here at work has 'graceland' online... overall it's about as nice nice as remembered (it's been over 10 years), but wow, 'I Know What I Know' is sounding incredible. That surreal snare drum, and the backing chorus mixed LOUD throughout is so happy. What a fantastic song.

― (Jon L), Friday, 26 September 2003 00:41 (9 years ago) Permalink

Isn't there an issue here concerning 'world music' tho - I mean, what exactly happens during the translation from South Africa to the Grammies? Surely this whole issue can be framed in terms of appropriation or exploitation on some level?

The colonialist narrative is almost a potent as 'Buena Vista Social Club' - white entrepreneur 'discovers' long lost primitive music, conspicuously coded as 'exotic' and 'Other'? Fetishistic to say the least.

― Michael Dieter, Friday, 26 September 2003 07:06 (9 years ago) Permalink

He didn't perform in SA, he refused. He did what Springsteen and others did and performed in Zimbabwe and sneered over the border. I saw an interview with him where he was going on about how wonderful it was to play in SA over footage of the concert at the Rufaro stadium in Harare. He obviously had no fucking clue where he was or why.
The best thing about that album is all the township jive anyway, not really LBM. Whoever that band was, they sure as shit got too little credit.
Also it's bit ridiculous that he got blacklisted (ha!) by the UN. I mean, do you think that Botha was pleased that an African vocal group became world-famous?

― Sam (chirombo), Friday, 26 September 2003 09:54 (9 years ago) Permalink

Giving those musicians credit and publishing was probably a positive thing in the end, for South African music, for the fight against Apartheid etc.

I only with he had continued making "traditional" Paul Simon albums. "Hearts And Bones" was his best ever, and he has yet to record a proper followup that is mainly the work of Paul Simon and not just Paul Simon trying to show some talented ethnic musicians to the world.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Friday, 26 September 2003 11:51 (9 years ago) Permalink

Actually, he tried that again on his doo-wop thing, and everyone hated it.

― dleone (dleone), Friday, 26 September 2003 12:01 (9 years ago) Permalink

what if you don't care about the coding? I mean, is the music bad?

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Friday, 26 September 2003 16:48 (9 years ago) Permalink

Xgau on Graceland

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Friday, 26 September 2003 16:52 (9 years ago) Permalink

Christgau: always wanting more.

― dleone (dleone), Friday, 26 September 2003 17:10 (9 years ago) Permalink

8 months pass...

Revive, please. I got to thinking about this album last night for no reason. Classic or Dud?

I lean towards the former, since I cannot get the songs out of my head (in a good way) without even listening to the freakin' album.

― frankE (frankE), Monday, 7 June 2004 13:50 (8 years ago) Permalink

Ah yes, that was during the 1986-87 "accordion" craze, when that most ridiculed of musical instruments was suddenly and briefly "hip". People like Simon, J.C. Mellencamp, Los Lobos, Buckwheat Zydeco and others were selling many records and winning Grammys for accordion-drenched LPs. It didn't last long, but it was a fairly interesting development at the time. I never owned "Graceland" but heard it a lot from roommates when I was in school, and still like about half of the uptempo songs, mostly for the amazing fretless bass playing and, yes, the accordion.

― Myonga Von Bontee (Myonga Von Bontee), Monday, 7 June 2004 15:16 (8 years ago) Permalink

I like the "Boy in the Bubble" song.

― King Kobra (King Kobra), Monday, 7 June 2004 16:01 (8 years ago) Permalink

At least now-a-days he's back to exploiting Garfunkel.

― christoff (christoff), Monday, 7 June 2004 16:32 (8 years ago) Permalink

8 months pass...

I like this.

― djdee2005 (djdee2005), Tuesday, 8 February 2005 08:38 (8 years ago) Permalink

Jeez, listen to "Boy in the Bubble" and it sounds like it was written yesterday. lasers in the jungle, bombs in baby carriages, a loose affiliation of millionaires and billionaires and baby... What a great song.

The whole album's good, and the best songs are way better than good.

― gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Tuesday, 8 February 2005 08:56 (8 years ago) Permalink

(M.I.A.'s next cover should definitely be "Boy in the Bubble")

― gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Tuesday, 8 February 2005 08:58 (8 years ago) Permalink

!! thats a good call actually

― djdee2005 (djdee2005), Tuesday, 8 February 2005 08:59 (8 years ago) Permalink

Fantastic. Really nice, pleasant record. TOTAL classic. God bless Paul. I mean, i like Paul m. better. but god bless Paul s!

― Stormy Davis (diamond), Tuesday, 8 February 2005 09:00 (8 years ago) Permalink

Dud, unfortunately. Hearts and Bones and Rhythm Of The Saints are his most consistently wonderful albums, but it's always GracelandGracelandGraceland! What's more, the production has definitely aged for the worse, whereas H&B, for example, still sounds great.

― derrick (derrick), Tuesday, 8 February 2005 10:09 (8 years ago) Permalink

i would like the songs on Graceland if they removed the African beats and kept it to a guy and his guitar.I apologise if this offends anyone because it's meant to be rascist.

― chevy chase, Tuesday, 8 February 2005 10:16 (8 years ago) Permalink

You're the one saying 'primitive', 'exotic' and 'other', buddy! I don't think that's how the record is received. What has fetishism got to do with it anyway?

― Miles Finch, Tuesday, 8 February 2005 10:16 (8 years ago) Permalink

OTM Miles. Ry Cooder has always been into exploring roots music, wherever it's from. He was genuinely moved by the Cuban music he heard and rightly believed more people deserved to hear it. Buena Vista made stars of Ibrahim Ferrer & Ruben Gonzalez et al, not Cooder.
And what exactly is primitive about Cuban son (or the African hi-life Simon incorporated into his music) It's incredibly complex music that requires great skill to play. And it's joyous dance music too. Anyone can respond to that, it's not a case of exoticism.

― stew, Tuesday, 8 February 2005 11:18 (8 years ago) Permalink

i think my parents got like 6 copies of this (on vinyl) as xmas gifts the year it came out. it was inescapable! i have a nostalgic fondness for it, but haven't actually listened in years. casiotone for the painfully alone are doing a cover of the title track, which i'm looking forward to hearing.

― lauren (laurenp), Tuesday, 8 February 2005 12:53 (8 years ago) Permalink

My dad used to listen to this on cassette in the car all the time. My brother loves it also. There was a period I hated it bcuz I was sick of it, but going back is like home.

― djdee2005 (djdee2005), Tuesday, 8 February 2005 12:58 (8 years ago) Permalink

Couple thoughts:

At this distance, the album is both a classic and overrated. There is an awful lot of filler on the second side. But the first six songs are among the best Simon has ever written, musically and lyrically. Boy and Graceland, especially, have fabulous lyrics, and Diamonds remains stunningly pretty. Nothing on Rhythm of the Saints or Hearts and Bones -- both of which I like a lot -- really comes close to those.

The colonialism charge is completely misplaced. This was totally different than, say, Joni Mitchell's Jungle Line, where she recorded over loops of field recordings of African drums, and used those sounds as a metaphor for mystery, darkness, man's primitive nature, primal truth, etc. Simon was inspired by a new kind of music he heard, but he was never using it in an objectified way. His use of township jive for hipster New York narratives emphasized the sophistication and (gulp) universality of the music, not its exoticism. He was using African music much the way Kurt Weill used blues in Mahagonny, or Mahler used Chinese music in Das Lied von der Erde, or Cheb Khaled used Irish music in Abdul Qadr, or David Byrne uses Brazilian music all the time, or, for that matter, all of alt-country: acts of cross-cultural engagement and respect, not appropriation.

And, just to make things clear to those who were not around then, Simon bent over backwards to credit his African collaborators at the time. Not just Ladysmith Black Mambazo, but also especially Ray Phiri (guitar) and Baghiti Khumalo (bass), both of whom also contributed to Rhythm of the Saints and toured with Simon for years. But there was never any question that these were Paul Simon songs (except for the one song that was recorded over a pre-existing track). That is part of what gave the project its strangeness and excitement.

― Vornado (Vornado), Tuesday, 8 February 2005 15:08 (8 years ago) Permalink

Thought one: Baghiti Khumalo is a frickin deity.

Thought two: this-- "His use of township jive for hipster New York narratives emphasized the sophistication and (gulp) universality of the music, not its exoticism. He was using African music much the way Kurt Weill used blues in Mahagonny, or Mahler used Chinese music in Das Lied von der Erde, or Cheb Khaled used Irish music in Abdul Qadr, or David Byrne uses Brazilian music all the time, or, for that matter, all of alt-country: acts of cross-cultural engagement and respect, not appropriation" --is quite right and well put.

Thought three: "Boy in the Bubble" ought to have been a bigger hit than "You Can Call Me Al," but such things can't be helped. I also like "I Know What I Know" and even the one with Linda Rondstadt, "Under African Skies."

Thought four: I agree that Rhythm of the Saints is a fantastic record that is way underrated.

― The Mad Puffin, Tuesday, 8 February 2005 15:24 (8 years ago) Permalink

"Cool Cool River" is the hot shit.

― djdee2005 (djdee2005), Tuesday, 8 February 2005 15:30 (8 years ago) Permalink

Vornado is OTM; the accusations of colonialism seemed bogus to me, even at the time. Simon was adapting Third World rhythms as far back as "Mother & Child Reunion."

Of course, if you don't like Simon (and I really can't stand Simon & Garfunkel), then this "Graceland" argument is largely moot. I think it and the eponymous debut are his best work.

I've been curious about "Hearts & Bones" for years (I heard the track with Chic the other day), but am afraid it's gonna sound as static and morose as "Rene & Georgette Magritte..." or "Train in the Distance."

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Tuesday, 8 February 2005 15:47 (8 years ago) Permalink

"Under African Skies" is a thing of beauty, one of those songs that is guaranteed to put a lump in my throat. I grew up with this album - it was one of the first CDs my Dad ever owned - and I think I have to go buy a copy soon.

― Tantrum (Tantrum The Cat), Tuesday, 8 February 2005 18:44 (8 years ago) Permalink

please correct me if I'm wrong here--but didn't some of the musicians involved on "Graceland" complain about Paul Simon's use of their stuff? I thought it was more than just South Africa and all that?

Anyway, I don't know--this record annoys me, actually; like many here I like that bass playing. But Paul Simon is a very annoying singer to my ears. Every time I hear this or that awful fucking Ry Cooder Buena Vista Social Club crap, I think back on the Drew Friedman cartoon of Simon and Byrne meetin' up in the jungle, both with their portable tape recorders. Still, Ry Cooder is far more the villain for doing what he did to Cuban music, in my opinion; it's ridiculous, too, that we can't *go* to Cuba easily and find out what's going on there.

― edd s hurt (ddduncan), Tuesday, 8 February 2005 21:42 (8 years ago) Permalink

You can't go to Cuba because there's an embargo - an embargo as necessary as the cultural boycott of South Africa in the 80s.

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Tuesday, 8 February 2005 21:57 (8 years ago) Permalink

The embargo's hurting the Cuban populace more than anyone. I went to Cuba last March (under a humanitarian license that's no longer attainable) and am convinced of that much. Why isn't an embargo of the authoritarians in China "necessary"? cuz they're good capitalist exporters?

I liked "Graceland" aside from the Ronstadt track (she irks me on a number of levels), and saw the '86 show at Radio City (Ladysmith, Masekela, Makeba).

― Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 8 February 2005 22:37 (8 years ago) Permalink

Los Lobos complained about their treatment by Simon at the time, saying that his method of collaboration was basicly expecting them to improvise and create "naturally", like third world wild men, and then Paul would put his genius civilized lyrics and melodies on top. So they recorded a half-finished David Hidalgo song, Simon went away and wrote his vocal part and talked in interviews about how wonderfully creative Los Lobos are and how great it was "working with them".

― Colin Meeder (Mert), Tuesday, 8 February 2005 23:01 (8 years ago) Permalink

I don't wanna get too political, Morbius. My parents are Cuban, and I have relatives who've left Cuba recently. The only force hurting the Cuban people is the centralized authority headed by Castro, which makes sure that only a handful of exports and money trickles down to the populace. There's no compelling argument that excuses the enfeebled totalitarianism regime he heads - a regime which only last year handed down life sentences to librarians for selling "unauthorized" material.

I ask you: is this a government that cares about art?

As for Simon...I'm loath to call Simon a colonialist. Insulting labels are only applicable in the case of failed or flawed art, which Graceland certainly isn't.

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Tuesday, 8 February 2005 23:28 (8 years ago) Permalink

I can think of maybe two albums that I love more than Graceland. It's perfection

― Logan (the_three_G_s), Wednesday, 9 February 2005 00:04 (8 years ago) Permalink

1 year passes...

There are a lot of people bagging Paul Simon on here, saying things like its good but id like it better without the drums and it was just the singer. thats crap! I think any serious musician or anyone with broad musical knowledge would know that Paul Simon is one of the greatest singer/songwriters there has and ever will be.

The graceleand album whether it is your cup of tea or not is a remarkable album from what I call a genius of a man. He is a phenomenal singer, and I think comments like eddshurts:

Is a bunch of bullcrap ok you dont like it, but he didnt do anything to cuban music its called a striving musician growing and striving for something new and exciting, and succeeding in that too!

Like I said any good musician would have respect for if not love Paul Simon.

― shane nancarrow (shane237), Wednesday, 17 May 2006 12:37 (7 years ago) Permalink

Is this the most incomprehensible ILM post ever?

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Wednesday, 17 May 2006 12:41 (7 years ago) Permalink

I mean good god, I don't even own this record. why the hell am I so angry? this board is fucking dangerous. ok off to drink some water maybe.

ILM: Arguing About Records We Don't Own And May Not Have Even Heard

― Edward Bax (EdBax), Wednesday, 17 May 2006 13:37 (7 years ago) Permalink

(M.I.A.'s next cover should definitely be "Boy in the Bubble")

The Blue Aeroplanes onced covered it, but I never found their version particularly engaging. I'm actually not sure if it was an issue with their cover specifically, or just general fatique with the song.

― Edward Bax (EdBax), Wednesday, 17 May 2006 13:43 (7 years ago) Permalink

i would like the songs on Graceland if they removed the African beats and kept it to a guy and his guitar

Matter of fact, they would sound dissapointingly weak then, with the exception of "Diamonds On The Soles Of Her Shoes" and maybe one or two more. The songs were built around the African beats, and they just don't hold up as pure songs the way the songs on his earlier albums did.

Which I why I like consider "Graceland" one of his weakest albums btw.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Wednesday, 17 May 2006 14:53 (7 years ago) Permalink

How is a song "purer" when its arrangements are changed? In other words, how can you separate a song from its performance? Why on earth would you want to hear "I Know What I Know" or "The Boy in the Bubble" as man-and-a-guitar?

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Wednesday, 17 May 2006 15:02 (7 years ago) Permalink

"Why on earth would you want to hear "I Know What I Know" or "The Boy in the Bubble" as man-and-a-guitar? "

Generally it is a good way to judge whether a song is good or not. Personally I know it would show very well how those songs are not good.

The best songs work perfectly backed by only a guitar or a piano. Always. This also includes Simon's best songs. Most of which were written in 1982-83 or earlier.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Wednesday, 17 May 2006 15:21 (7 years ago) Permalink

Btw. When it comes to combining European music with African/Latin rhythms, Kate Bush and Peter Gabriel have done it a lot better than Paul Simon, because they have managed to preserve the melodic and harmonic qualities of European music in a way Simon hasn't.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Wednesday, 17 May 2006 15:36 (7 years ago) Permalink

I suppose the subtlety with which Baghiti Khumalo's bass anchors the lovely vocal melody on the title track isn't enough for ya...

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Wednesday, 17 May 2006 15:53 (7 years ago) Permalink

Hi Geir, do you speak in quarter-notes? Paul Simon sure doesn't sing that way. Go back to Norway.

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Wednesday, 17 May 2006 15:58 (7 years ago) Permalink

Perhaps that's because he's American.

― Naive Teen Idol (Naive Teen Idol), Wednesday, 17 May 2006 16:39 (7 years ago) Permalink

The best songs work perfectly backed by only a guitar or a piano. Always.

-- Geir Hongro (geirhon...), May 17th, 2006.

― bernard snow (sixteen sergeants), Wednesday, 17 May 2006 17:13 (7 years ago) Permalink

Perhaps that's because he's American.

Western music is European.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Wednesday, 17 May 2006 20:57 (7 years ago) Permalink

― Rickey Wright (Rrrickey), Wednesday, 17 May 2006 21:03 (7 years ago) Permalink

I see, so if America = Western music = European tradition, then Lil Jon = European tradition.

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Wednesday, 17 May 2006 21:30 (7 years ago) Permalink

you fuckers just made me put this record on. upthread was right: fretless bass. I am pretty sure this record was influential at a young age to rip the frets out of my chinese p-bass fake and smear it with boat lacquer. who did i think i was

― neustile (neustile), Wednesday, 17 May 2006 22:01 (7 years ago) Permalink

4 months pass...

I was raised on this album and I think it's fantastic. It inspired me to buy straight township jive records are even better.

― Squirrel_Police (Squirrel_Police), Thursday, 5 October 2006 21:19 (6 years ago) Permalink

Does anyone know anything about a supposed 2CD version of Graceland that I've seen being advertised?

Legit. pre-release version of a forthcoming release; rare Japanese import; bootleg; or figment of someone's imagination?

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Friday, 6 October 2006 12:16 (6 years ago) Permalink

French erstwhile NY no-waver Lizzy Mercier-Descloux beat Simon to the punch by working with township jive musicians in 1984 on Mais où sont passées les gazelles? I've been listening to this a lot lately, and while its not as varied as the Simon album, it has much, much, more charm.

― 35 Hertz (35 Hertz), Friday, 6 October 2006 15:07 (6 years ago) Permalink

I was raised on it too. It remindes me of long hot car journeys through France with my parents.

― chap who would dare to contain two ingredients. Tea and bags. (chap), Friday, 6 October 2006 15:51 (6 years ago) Permalink

interview with Paul in this months mojo briefly tackles the controv. - apparently the UN thing was about performance, not recording.

i have to admit i hated the record at the time (flat mate at the time played the fragger to death and killed it for me)

― mark e (mark e), Friday, 6 October 2006 16:01 (6 years ago) Permalink

Interestingly, it is an extremely popular album amongst Kenyans and Tanzanians.

― chap who would dare to contain two ingredients. Tea and bags. (chap), Friday, 6 October 2006 16:08 (6 years ago) Permalink

this might be my least favorite album of all time

― mango selassie (teenagequiet), Friday, 6 October 2006 16:12 (6 years ago) Permalink

I was raised on it too. It remindes me of long hot car journeys through France with my parents.

ha, me too! still love love love this album.

― toby (tsg20), Saturday, 7 October 2006 08:43 (6 years ago) Permalink

Anyone ever try listening to "Rhythm of the Saints" in the alternate track order? Makes for a pretty different listen, legitimacy of the alt. order aside.

― Josh in Chicago (Josh in Chicago), Saturday, 7 October 2006 11:17 (6 years ago) Permalink

Interesting album, and of course very innovative. I still find myself preffering "Hearts And Bones" and his earlier material, feeling that Simon lost some of his songwriting touch when he started collaborating with those African and, later, Brazilian musicians. And as for the "World Music mixed with Western music"-thing, Peter Gabriel has always been better at it.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Saturday, 7 October 2006 15:15 (6 years ago) Permalink

Good album, but some of the production is a little too 80's for my liking.

Never been a fan of the "Canned orchestra" effect

― Erock Lazron (Erock Zombie), Saturday, 7 October 2006 16:15 (6 years ago) Permalink

1 year passes...

Rhymin' Simon: Not Welcome in East L.A.

Jambase via Stereogum ran an interview with Steve Berlin of Los Lobos, recounting his band's experience with Mr. Edie Brickell in the studio for the Graceland sessions. It may not be an exact ever a doppelganger to the Don McLean/Andy Breckman experience, but needless to say "American Pie" and "Boy in the Bubble" both will cause some accelerated reflux in this particular throat from hereon:
JAMBASE: Speaking of doing a lot of different records and working with a lot of amazing songwriters, I own a ton of the records that you've done over the years. One, in particular, I'd like to ask you about is Paul Simon's Graceland. I obsessed over that thing when I was young. Do you have anyrecollections of working on it?
STEVE BERLIN: Oh, I have plenty of recollections of working on that one.I don't know if you heard the stories, but it was not a pleasant deal for us. I mean he (Simon) quite literally -- and in no way do I exaggerate whenI say -- he stole the songs from us....And you know, going into it, I had an enormous amount of respect for the guy. The early records were amazing, I loved his solo records, and I truly thought he was one of the greatest gifts to American music that there was.
At the time, we were high on the musical food chain. Paul had just come off One Trick Pony and was kind of floundering. People forget, before Graceland, he was viewed as a colossal failure. He was low. So when we were approached to do it, I was a way bigger fan than anybody else in the band. We got approached by Lenny Waronker and Mo Ostin who ran our record company [Warner Bros.], and this is the way these guys would talk -- "It would mean a lot to the family if you guys would do this for us." And we thought, "Ok well, it's for the family, so we'll do it." It sounds so unbelievably naïve and ridiculous that that would be enough of a reason to go to the studio with him.
We go into the studio, and he had quite literally nothing. I mean, he had no ideas, no concepts, and said, "Well, let's just jam." We said, "We don't really do that." ... Not by accident, not even at soundcheck. We would always just play a song.
... Paul was a very strange guy. Paul's engineer was even stranger than Paul, and he just seemed to have no clue -- no focus, no design, no real nothing. He had just done a few of the African songs that hadn't become songs yet. Those were literally jams. Or what the world came to know and I don't think really got exposed enough, is that those are actually songs by a lot of those artists that he just approved of. So that's kind of what he was doing. It was very patrician, material sort of viewpoint. Like, because I'm gonna put my stamp on it, they're now my songs. But that's literally how he approached this stuff.
I remember he played me the one he did by John Hart, and I know John Hart, the last song on the record. He goes, "Yeah, I did this in Louisiana with this zy decko guy." And he kept saying it over and over. And I remember having to tell him, "Paul, it's pronounced zydeco. It's not zy decko, it's zydeco." I mean that's how incredibly dilettante he was about this stuff. The guy was clueless.
It was ridiculous. I think David starts playing "The Myth of the Fingerprints," or whatever he ended up calling it. That was one of our songs. That year, that was a song we started working on By Light of The Moon. So that was like an existing Lobos sketch of an idea that we had already started doing. I don't think there were any recordings of it, but we had messed around with it. We knew we were gonna do it. It was gonna turn
into a song. Paul goes, "Hey, what's that?" We start playing what we have of it, and it is exactly what you hear on the record. So we're like, "Oh, ok. We'll share this song."
JAMBASE: Good way to get out of the studio, though...
STEVE BERLIN: Yeah. But it was very clear to us, at the moment, we're thinking he's doing one of our songs. It would be like if he did "Will the Wolf Survive?" Literally. A few months later, the record comes out and says "Words and Music by Paul Simon." We were like, "What the fuck is this?" We tried calling him, and we can't find him. Weeks go by and our managers can't find him. We finally track him down and ask him about oursong, and he goes, "Sue me. See what happens."
JAMBASE: What?! Come on...
STEVE BERLIN: That's what he said. He said, "You don't like it? Sue me. You'll see what happens." We were floored. We had no idea. The record comes out, and he's a big hit. Retroactively, he had to give songwriting credit to all the African guys he stole from that were working on it and everyone seemed to forget. But that's the kind of person he is. He's the world's biggest prick, basically.
So we go back to Lenny and say, "Hey listen, you stuck us in the studio with this fucking idiot for two days. We tried to get out of it, you made us stay in there, and then he steals our song?! What the hell?!" And Lenny's always a politician. He made us forget about it long enough that it went away. But to this day, I do not believe we have gotten paid for it. We certainly didn't get songwriting credit for it. And it remains an enormous bone that sticks in our craw. Had he even given us a millionth of what the song and the record became, I think we would have been - if nothing else - much richer, but much happier about the whole thing.
JAMBASE: Have you guys seen him since then?
STEVE BERLIN: No. Never run into him. I'll tell you, if the guys ever did run into him, I wouldn't want to be him, that's for sure.

― Elvis Telecom, Tuesday, 15 April 2008 23:31 (5 years ago) Permalink

when I saw this thread revived I knew it was about that! they ahve been telling that story since the album came out but it seems to have gotten more traction lately. I doubt anyone is surprised to find out Paul Simon is a prick

― akm, Tuesday, 15 April 2008 23:37 (5 years ago) Permalink

^^^^Not more Vampire Weekend dross?

― Fer Ark, Tuesday, 15 April 2008 23:40 (5 years ago) Permalink

this thread is hilarious.

um, yeah. "accordion" "craze." all those grammys. even zydeco bands were getting into "accordions" at the time!

― andrew m., Wednesday, 16 April 2008 15:01 (5 years ago) Permalink

and this:

i would like the songs on Graceland if they removed the African beats and kept it to a guy and his guitar.I apologise if this offends anyone because it's meant to be rascist.
-- chevy chase, Tuesday, February 8, 2005 10:16 AM (3 years ago) Bookmark Link

classic

― andrew m., Wednesday, 16 April 2008 15:03 (5 years ago) Permalink

still a great album, credit is overrated

― Dr Morbius, Thursday, 17 April 2008 19:43 (5 years ago) Permalink

Definitely good. Definitely overrated.

I remember at the time, Rhythm of the Saints got a very good response, but for some reason nobody talks about it now. I also think it's a much better record than Graceland.

I always liked that first single from Rhythm Of The Saints -- The Obvious Child -- way better than anything on Graceland.

― Daniel, Esq., Thursday, 17 April 2008 20:03 (5 years ago) Permalink

1 year passes...

(M.I.A.'s next cover should definitely be "Boy in the Bubble")

Absolutely not. "I Know What I Know" is the only choice for a M.I.A cover. Besides, "Boy in the Bubble" might touch some sensitive family nerves.

― bachmann boehner overdrive (kenan), Saturday, 2 May 2009 13:50 (4 years ago) Permalink

Actually, it's just a bad idea all the way around.

― bachmann boehner overdrive (kenan), Saturday, 2 May 2009 13:55 (4 years ago) Permalink

3 weeks pass...

there's no general Paul Simon thread, so maybe this is as good a place as any to post... a coworker inexplicably gave me a copy of Paul Simon's "Songs from the Capeman" awhile back, just got around to listening to it now. In the first song he gets off some really clumsy lyrics but also drops "nigger" and a rather forceful "fucking" in a rather disconcerting manner... not sure why this was such a commercial/critical failure, maybe cuz the subject matter is really kinda dark and bleak and not some happy-go-lucky cheery world music fusion thing that's easy for people to grasp on a surface level (don't get me wrong I know there's dark undercurrents to all his material including Graceland and, I assume, Rhythm of the Saints, but its fairly easy to ignore unless you pay unusually close attention to lyrics).

― Wrinkles, I'll See You On the Other Side (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 26 May 2009 22:05 (4 years ago) Permalink

it is fairly amazing that this guy's voice has basically not changed AT ALL in 40 years

― Wrinkles, I'll See You On the Other Side (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 26 May 2009 22:05 (4 years ago) Permalink

this is kinda good actually - some really beautiful doowop singing on here

― Wrinkles, I'll See You On the Other Side (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 26 May 2009 22:11 (4 years ago) Permalink

yeah this is the only Paul Simon album I've never heard, I think! I should give it a listen.

― tylerw, Tuesday, 26 May 2009 22:12 (4 years ago) Permalink

I love that opening song "Adios Hermanos." It's so thick with storytelling. Main problem with that album/musical was collaborating with Derek Walcott on the rest of the lyrics.

― Eazy, Tuesday, 26 May 2009 22:13 (4 years ago) Permalink

I know this is a "musical" so maybe I should forgive some of the "speaking in character" stuff he lapses into (rolling his r's, etc. although it is kinda funny to hear him spit out "motherfuckers")

― Wrinkles, I'll See You On the Other Side (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 26 May 2009 22:13 (4 years ago) Permalink

should I be blaming Walcott...? There are definitely some decidedly un-subtle, non-Simonish lyrical things going on here.

― Wrinkles, I'll See You On the Other Side (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 26 May 2009 22:14 (4 years ago) Permalink

I haven't gotten into the rest of the album (other than the closer "Trailways Bus" kinda), but I love love how "Adios Hermanos" starts out with those super-long lines like "Gumboots" has, except in character and in a specific time and place, and how it builds into the super-long drawn-out single syllables by the end, and how it's all a cappella.

― Eazy, Tuesday, 26 May 2009 22:17 (4 years ago) Permalink

It's pretty much on par with "Nebraska" as far as songs in which the singer ends up strapped into an electric chair.

― Eazy, Tuesday, 26 May 2009 22:20 (4 years ago) Permalink

this is a totally ugly album (sounds really pretty tho) no wonder his audience didn't bite

sample chorus: "fucking puerto rican dope-dealing punk / get your shit-brown ass outta here"

― Wrinkles, I'll See You On the Other Side (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 26 May 2009 22:21 (4 years ago) Permalink

sounds like it was co-written with this guy

― tylerw, Tuesday, 26 May 2009 22:29 (4 years ago) Permalink

It's pretty much on par with "Nebraska" as far as songs in which the singer ends up strapped into an electric chair.

just behind 'ride the lightning' though

― Ømår Littel (Jordan), Tuesday, 26 May 2009 22:30 (4 years ago) Permalink

lolz great pic of him and Lou

― Wrinkles, I'll See You On the Other Side (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 26 May 2009 22:31 (4 years ago) Permalink

talkin about puerto rican doo wop, i'm sure

― tylerw, Tuesday, 26 May 2009 22:37 (4 years ago) Permalink

("puerto rican doo wop" being the name of a sweet strain of cocaine in the late 70s)

― tylerw, Tuesday, 26 May 2009 22:38 (4 years ago) Permalink

1 month passes...

okay, cheeseball me got a little choked up randomly hearing this "Father and Daughter" song off of "Surprise" while swimming with my daughter

― Sleep Causes Cancer (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 8 July 2009 22:50 (3 years ago) Permalink

It's a good song!

― My name is Kenny! (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 8 July 2009 22:52 (3 years ago) Permalink

His singing especially: it's self-mocking yet totally sincere.

― My name is Kenny! (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 8 July 2009 22:53 (3 years ago) Permalink

I had never heard it before but yeah struck me as pretty vintage Simon right off the bat

― Sleep Causes Cancer (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 8 July 2009 22:57 (3 years ago) Permalink

liked this song except for the cartoony backing vocals ...

― tylerw, Wednesday, 8 July 2009 22:58 (3 years ago) Permalink

3 months pass...

This fucking album wow.

― Bay-L.A. Bar Talk (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 13 October 2009 05:59 (3 years ago) Permalink

otm

― iatee, Tuesday, 13 October 2009 06:02 (3 years ago) Permalink

rulez

― ice cr?m, Tuesday, 13 October 2009 06:02 (3 years ago) Permalink

first cd ever owned and I think I want it to be last thing I listen to before I die

― Bay-L.A. Bar Talk (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 13 October 2009 06:11 (3 years ago) Permalink

It was my soundtrack to this last summer. I kept putting on the song "Graceland" just to hear it alone, and then listening to the whole album anyway. And then I'd listen again.

― Euler, Tuesday, 13 October 2009 07:48 (3 years ago) Permalink

it has been the soundtrack to so many of my summers

― just sayin, Tuesday, 13 October 2009 08:03 (3 years ago) Permalink

I remember seeing the Graceland concert film this comes from in Music class back in Kindergarten onward whenever it was time to study "World Music." IIRC we never got to sing any of the songs.

― Roomful of Moogs (C. Grisso/McCain), Wednesday, 14 October 2009 00:28 (3 years ago) Permalink

My soundtrack to family car journeys in England. So many good memories.

― sam500, Wednesday, 14 October 2009 00:31 (3 years ago) Permalink

x post.

growing up, it was such a part of my family holidays in the car. I now have a copy just to repeat the experience with my family.

its a best of Paul Simon CD but 40% of it is Gracelend so I don't feel I'm missing out.

― my opinionation (Hamildan), Wednesday, 14 October 2009 19:22 (3 years ago) Permalink

growing up, it was such a part of my family holidays in the car.

Same for me. It always gives me flashbacks to the smell of hire cars and the South of France.

― chap, Wednesday, 14 October 2009 19:24 (3 years ago) Permalink

growing up, it was such a part of my family holidays in the car. I now have a copy just to repeat the experience with my family.

ha, me too! I had no idea this was a universal

― Ismael Klata, Wednesday, 14 October 2009 19:28 (3 years ago) Permalink

I didn't grow up with it, but it was the last "family record" we had, coming out just as we stopped being able to do things as a unit. So it's nostalgic, but in a bittersweet sort of way.

― from alcoholism to fleshly concerns (contenderizer), Wednesday, 14 October 2009 19:28 (3 years ago) Permalink

Since it was the first CD my family owned (and I think the ONLY pop/rock CD for some time) it was a family experience for me as well - I was still young enough that I would listen to the music my parents liked, and it was an album the whole family seemed to really like.

― Bay-L.A. Bar Talk (Hurting 2), Wednesday, 14 October 2009 20:06 (3 years ago) Permalink

def universally approved of in my family too

― ice cr?m, Thursday, 15 October 2009 05:58 (3 years ago) Permalink

it was the first CD my family owned

Yup! Same here.

― Binkie & The-Dream: One is a Terius, the other's insAY!ne (Alex in Montreal), Thursday, 15 October 2009 06:13 (3 years ago) Permalink

lol i think it's the only pop cd my mum owns

― jabba hands, Thursday, 15 October 2009 12:34 (3 years ago) Permalink

haha i didn't really hear this album growing up but when i went on vacation w/ my wife's family in June i must've heard this in the car like 8 times

― some dude, Thursday, 15 October 2009 13:11 (3 years ago) Permalink

I have still never heard more than four songs from this album. For some reason, this one totally passed my family by even though I think it would have been right up their alley.

― & other try hard shitfests (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Thursday, 15 October 2009 13:14 (3 years ago) Permalink

we listened to it on vinyl, made me the indie fukk i am today

― congratulations (n/a), Thursday, 15 October 2009 13:15 (3 years ago) Permalink

After listening to it again and again all summer, and getting kinda weirdly curious about what it would feel like to lose love and have a window to my heart, and then remembering that I'm happily married, I'm not sure what to think of this being a really popular family album, besides that the words must not be listened to very clearly.

― Euler, Thursday, 15 October 2009 13:19 (3 years ago) Permalink

what families cant appreciate having windows in their hearts plz

― ice cr?m, Thursday, 15 October 2009 16:17 (3 years ago) Permalink

lolz yeah the lyrics on this album are a total downer! par for the course with Simon

― Remove This Vile Tweet (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 15 October 2009 16:20 (3 years ago) Permalink

Well that was your mother,
And that was your father,
Before you was born dude,
When life was great,
You are the burden, of my generation,
I sure do love you,
But let's get that straight,

what a horrible thing to say to your child

― Remove This Vile Tweet (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 15 October 2009 16:21 (3 years ago) Permalink

haha, yeah, the narrator of that song is an incredible asshole

― tylerw, Thursday, 15 October 2009 16:27 (3 years ago) Permalink

yeah its sorta Steely Dan-ish the way it contrasts a really slick, joyful sounding tune with total asshole lyrics

― Remove This Vile Tweet (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 15 October 2009 16:34 (3 years ago) Permalink

ive always felt guilty for thinking the banter on i know what i know is smooth

― ice cr?m, Thursday, 15 October 2009 16:51 (3 years ago) Permalink

Also heard this a lot on family car rides through America's heartland.

― kingkongvsgodzilla, Thursday, 15 October 2009 17:33 (3 years ago) Permalink

OTMFM!

― ok star grumbles (lukas), Thursday, 15 October 2009 17:36 (3 years ago) Permalink

ive always felt guilty for thinking the banter on i know what i know is smooth

Hmmm, I might try "don't I know you from the cinematographer's party?" on the next nice girl I meet and see what reaction it gets.

― chap, Thursday, 15 October 2009 19:02 (3 years ago) Permalink

yeah who would she be to blow against the wind etc

― ice cr?m, Thursday, 15 October 2009 19:07 (3 years ago) Permalink

haha cant believe how universal this record is for so many ppl ... i had no idea

― i got nothin (deej), Thursday, 15 October 2009 21:18 (3 years ago) Permalink

for so many ppl's families, i mean ... it was for mine as well

― i got nothin (deej), Thursday, 15 October 2009 21:18 (3 years ago) Permalink

yeah, me too. I remember driving around in the vanagon circa 1987 listening to this tape constantly. It wasn't my fam's first CD -- I think Rhythm of the Saints was!

― tylerw, Thursday, 15 October 2009 21:20 (3 years ago) Permalink

Seriously, the playing on this is so good! I'm going to make a very embarrassing old man one day, earnestly beseeching some twelve-year-olds and their friends to 'just listen to that fretless bass'.

― Ismael Klata, Thursday, 15 October 2009 21:25 (3 years ago) Permalink

Mid-80's, this record was guaranteed to show up in two places: (1) right before the first speaker at a rally at my college to protest anything, they'd play it on the PA, and (2) the record collection of every adult lefty in my parents' circle of friends, along with the soundtrack to the Commitments.

― dad a, Thursday, 15 October 2009 21:27 (3 years ago) Permalink

srsly ill sound - why dont more musicians fuck w/the fretless

― ice cr?m, Thursday, 15 October 2009 21:27 (3 years ago) Permalink

ugh the Commitments, what an abortion of an album

― Jesus, the Czar of Czars (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 15 October 2009 21:30 (3 years ago) Permalink

I remember getting totally inordinately upset with people who actually insisted that the Commitments sdtk was better than the original Stax recordings (even tho they are like note-for-note covers!)

the mind boggles

― Jesus, the Czar of Czars (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 15 October 2009 21:32 (3 years ago) Permalink

So you guys are saying I should totally hear Graceland some day?

― & other try hard shitfests (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Thursday, 15 October 2009 21:33 (3 years ago) Permalink

I think nostalgia is probably coloring some people's emotions for this album. It was a hit in my family's van, too, of course.

Dudes from Los Lobos don't have many kind words to say about it, though.

― Trip Maker, Thursday, 15 October 2009 21:37 (3 years ago) Permalink

I'd say that it's one of the few records from my childhood that holds up to my nostalgia for it. If that makes sense. There was probably a 10 year stretch where I didn't listen to it at all, but when I did, I loved it in a new way ...

― tylerw, Thursday, 15 October 2009 21:39 (3 years ago) Permalink

o well the dudes from los lobos in that case

― ice cr?m, Thursday, 15 October 2009 21:40 (3 years ago) Permalink

yeah we talked about the dudes from los lobos in that other graceland thread this week.

― tylerw, Thursday, 15 October 2009 21:42 (3 years ago) Permalink

its weird how this is never really mentioned in the same breath with other 80s milestones like Thriller or Purple Rain or Born in the USA

probably cuz Simon's from a previous generation, I assume

― Jesus, the Czar of Czars (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 15 October 2009 21:44 (3 years ago) Permalink

I've always found that this is a canonical record for most people my age and older.

― Trip Maker, Thursday, 15 October 2009 21:45 (3 years ago) Permalink

yeah it sold, what, 16 million?

― tylerw, Thursday, 15 October 2009 21:46 (3 years ago) Permalink

maybe the video w/ Chevy Chase wasn't quite as big a moment as those other albums' videos?

― tylerw, Thursday, 15 October 2009 21:46 (3 years ago) Permalink

srsly ill sound - why dont more musicians fuck w/the fretless

Because the bad ones sound like Paul Young records?

― Roman Polanski now sleeps in prison. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 15 October 2009 21:47 (3 years ago) Permalink

its weird how this is never really mentioned in the same breath with other 80s milestones like Thriller or Purple Rain or Born in the USA

In what sense? It didn't half of those three records, though, but shows up on any best of the eighties poll -- and it WAS a big hit, his biggest since S&G.

― Roman Polanski now sleeps in prison. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 15 October 2009 21:48 (3 years ago) Permalink

*It didn't sell half

― Roman Polanski now sleeps in prison. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 15 October 2009 21:48 (3 years ago) Permalink

well I didn't check any sales numbers or anything

just the reactions on this thread are weirdly universal - did every white kid in the 80s listen to this in the car on family vacations or what

― Jesus, the Czar of Czars (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 15 October 2009 22:02 (3 years ago) Permalink

Because the bad ones sound like Paul Young records?

this is true, but well done fretless is pretty awesome i must say

― get up and use(rna)me (electricsound), Thursday, 15 October 2009 22:38 (3 years ago) Permalink

No argument.

― Roman Polanski now sleeps in prison. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 15 October 2009 22:40 (3 years ago) Permalink

its weird how this is never really mentioned in the same breath with other 80s milestones like Thriller or Purple Rain or Born in the USA

― Jesus, the Czar of Czars (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, October 15, 2009 5:44 PM (5 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i hav a playlists in my itunes containing 5 each songs from graceland born in the usa and brothers in arms

― ice cr?m, Friday, 16 October 2009 03:24 (3 years ago) Permalink

i think it's a little late to get slotted with those isn't it? I moved back to california in 1987 and I think it came out at least then, if not later. I associate the others with junior high (for me), graceland with later highschool.

― akm, Friday, 16 October 2009 03:31 (3 years ago) Permalink

agree w/all the sentiments itt. i would add that i bought the remaster a couple months ago and goddamn it sounds slammin

― call all destroyer, Friday, 16 October 2009 03:32 (3 years ago) Permalink

its weird how this is never really mentioned in the same breath with other 80s milestones like Thriller or Purple Rain or Born in the USA

It wasn't a singles/videos monster like those records. It only placed three on the hot 100 ("Graceland": 81, "You Can Call Me Al": 22, & "The Boy In The Bubble": 86), altough several other tracks were mere radio hits. I seem to rember reading in some old 80s mags that Graceland was kind of seen as a new model for selling an album in the MTV era around a concept (such as the world beat stuff) instead of having big hits or videos.

― Roomful of Moogs (C. Grisso/McCain), Friday, 16 October 2009 17:38 (3 years ago) Permalink

I remember "You Can Call Me Al" being huge on Nick Rocks.

― kingkongvsgodzilla, Friday, 16 October 2009 17:40 (3 years ago) Permalink

Yeah, that one probably had the longest shelf life. Seems like it should have been a bigger hit.

This thread made me dig out my copy of Negotiations and Love Songs (never owned Graceland knew it only from radio and school). Kinda funny that they cut "Graceland" off the cd and tape even though some other tracks were edits and even then the set was just over an hour.

― Roomful of Moogs (C. Grisso/McCain), Friday, 16 October 2009 18:04 (3 years ago) Permalink

I moved back to california in 1987 and I think it came out at least then, if not later.

― Kevin John Bozelka, Friday, 16 October 2009 18:16 (3 years ago) Permalink

"You Can Call Me Al" got got number 4 in the UK. I'd kinda assumed it did better in the US.

― Disco Stfu (Raw Patrick), Friday, 16 October 2009 18:18 (3 years ago) Permalink

yeah i recall it being a bit of a phenomenon

― ice cr?m, Friday, 16 October 2009 18:38 (3 years ago) Permalink

video had chevy chase, A+++

― i got nothin (deej), Friday, 16 October 2009 20:46 (3 years ago) Permalink

yeah who would she be to blow against the wind etc

― ice cr?m, Thursday, 15 October 2009 19:07 (3 days ago)

Whenever he sings this line I picture him closing his eyes, grinning sheepishly and doing this corny arms-in-the-wind dance

― Bay-L.A. Bar Talk (Hurting 2), Sunday, 18 October 2009 04:40 (3 years ago) Permalink

5 months pass...

I'm taking Shakey's prerog and talking about Songs From The Capeman here...Simon doesn't usually write songs that are too long, but "Can I Forgive Him" is a momentum killer, at 6+ minutes. And it's not the simplicity of the arrangement, since both "Killer Wants To Go To College"s are pretty stripped down. Maybe the song needed to be long for its role in the play? "Trailways Bus" is great too. "Can I Forgive Him" aside, the songs where Simon's voice dominates are good, but I don't like the other singers as much on this: too showtunes-y for my tastes, and I don't think Simon wrote very well for those singers' voices. Though José Feliciano on the bonus "Born In Puerto Rico" is excellent; that song is better than most everything on the "real" album.

― offshore "drilling" for (Euler), Saturday, 3 April 2010 06:30 (3 years ago) Permalink

1 year passes...

Seriously, the playing on this is so good! I'm going to make a very embarrassing old man one day, earnestly beseeching some twelve-year-olds and their friends to 'just listen to that fretless bass'.
― Ismael Klata, Thursday, October 15, 2009 4:25 PM (1 year ago) Bookmark

^^^^This

― Handjobs for a sport (C. Grisso/McCain), Saturday, 21 May 2011 01:41 (2 years ago) Permalink

8 months pass...

like a lot of folks here, this album was ubiquitous in my childhood (at least from age 9 onwards). so much so that i more or less soured on it for decades.

listening to it with fresh ears is interesting. particularly so because i "rediscovered" it after having read a bit about how it was put together -- paul simon improvising lead melodies over what were more or less jams (and in one case a pre-existing backing track). once i acquired that knowledge, i can't listen to the album the same way anymore. it _sounds_ exactly like how it was put together, for ill and (more often) for good. the backing tracks often vamp for many many bars on the same chord, while simon's vocal line supplies a great deal of melodic business. (the major exception that i hear is "under african skies," which sounds more like it was through-composed, although i could be wrong.) so one question is, how assuredly and interestingly does he interact with the rhythms and instrumental 'pockets' of the backing tracks. most of the time it's pretty impressive, although sometimes he sort of ends a line early, not knowing exactly how to extend it rhythmically (e.g. after "hints and allegations"). in general side B is not as strong as side A, but that's true of a lot of records.

i love paul simon, but there's a kind of decorousness across nearly all his work that limits it somewhat for me. a semi-exception is much of his 1972 solo album. i don't know why or how that album transcends some of his limitations -- maybe it's by sustaining a felt, as opposed to theoretical, sense of drift and mystery in some of the tracks (like "armistice day," which apparently simon dismisses these days). maybe i just like it when he relaxes his sense of melody and surrenders to a groove, which he even does a few times on 'graceland.'

anyway.

― flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Friday, 17 February 2012 13:01 (1 year ago) Permalink

in sum i like this album a lot but it always makes me dig out my mbaqanga LPs afterwards and those are typically a lot more exciting. /challops

― flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Friday, 17 February 2012 13:04 (1 year ago) Permalink

"Graceland" sounds "through-composed."

― Exile in lolville (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 17 February 2012 14:12 (1 year ago) Permalink

yeah, absolutely -- it _builds_ in a way the other songs don't.

― flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Friday, 17 February 2012 15:16 (1 year ago) Permalink

actually i dunno... the chorus in particular seems like an improvisation over a vamp. the verses less so.

― flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Friday, 17 February 2012 15:17 (1 year ago) Permalink

actually i dunno even more... it does sound a lot like a very fixed rhythmic pattern underlying nearly the whole thing, with the vocal melody arriving later and then accented with acoustic guitar, backing vocals, and keyboards to give a more shifting texture.

― flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Friday, 17 February 2012 15:18 (1 year ago) Permalink

guess the bonus tracks on the upcoming super deluxe version haven't been announced, but they might shed a little more light onto the creation of the album.

― tylerw, Friday, 17 February 2012 15:28 (1 year ago) Permalink

Los Lobos wrote and played on everything and Paul Simon stole their ideas.

― Exile in lolville (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 17 February 2012 15:33 (1 year ago) Permalink

well, to be fair, i think ladysmith black mambazo stole from los lobos and then paul simon stole from them. the circle of life, hakuna matata.

― tylerw, Friday, 17 February 2012 15:35 (1 year ago) Permalink

paul simon made ladysmith balck mambazo play drums but they didnt want to

― lag∞n, Friday, 17 February 2012 15:37 (1 year ago) Permalink

little known fact: randy newman's "sail away" is sung from the perspective of paul simon.

― tylerw, Friday, 17 February 2012 15:40 (1 year ago) Permalink

Paul Simon kept calling Ladysmith Black Mambazo "Art" and when LBM got annoyed Simon would smile blankly and affably.

― Exile in lolville (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 17 February 2012 15:40 (1 year ago) Permalink

Paul Simon enslaved Los Lobos in a burning hot Mexican factory with no windows where they worked 23 hours a day in the summer heat, writing every note of every Paul Simon album at gunpoint under the watchful eyes of guerilla rebels with sawed-off shotguns. Simon repaid their hard, thankless work by murdering their families and raping their children, in that order.

― Poliopolice, Friday, 17 February 2012 15:50 (1 year ago) Permalink

Paul Simon is actually Lou Reed.

― Exile in lolville (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 17 February 2012 15:54 (1 year ago) Permalink

Paul Simon made the singers suck his dick
― Mike Hanle y, Monday, December 17, 2001

― Exile in lolville (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 17 February 2012 15:54 (1 year ago) Permalink

that los lobos complaint seems a little farfetched to me, i mean if that was paul simon's m.o. we'd have heard much more about it right? he would've been sued a million times.

― flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Friday, 17 February 2012 19:46 (1 year ago) Permalink

paul simon prob just decided he didnt like Los lobos

― lag∞n, Friday, 17 February 2012 19:48 (1 year ago) Permalink

more like los locos amirite?

― flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Friday, 17 February 2012 19:53 (1 year ago) Permalink

paul was like: "more like los blow-me-bros"

― tylerw, Friday, 17 February 2012 19:54 (1 year ago) Permalink

'los you want credit for what sry I cant hear u will all this money and African music in my ears'

― lag∞n, Friday, 17 February 2012 19:59 (1 year ago) Permalink

los lobos more like those bozos wont be able to stop me, the great paul simon, from stealing all their cool music and girlfriends

― 99x (Lamp), Saturday, 18 February 2012 02:54 (1 year ago) Permalink

How Will the Wolf Survive? Who cares, I'm Paul Simon.

― tylerw, Saturday, 18 February 2012 03:01 (1 year ago) Permalink

paul simon killed baby jesus

― Poliopolice, Saturday, 18 February 2012 06:32 (1 year ago) Permalink

His Electric Bass is a Terminator Seed

― ‘Neuroscience’ and ‘near death’ pepper (Eazy), Saturday, 18 February 2012 07:12 (1 year ago) Permalink

2 months pass...

Okay so..

http://www.paulsimon.com/us/graceland25

http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2012/apr/19/paul-simon-graceland-acclaim-outrage

docu looks great. it's showing as a 'Primetime Special' in the States it says here.

― piscesx, Tuesday, 24 April 2012 13:17 (1 year ago) Permalink

Can't wait to see this... especially after Berlinger's work on "Some Kind of Monster"

― Poliopolice, Tuesday, 24 April 2012 14:18 (1 year ago) Permalink

wish it'd been Paul Simon: Some Kind of Monster

― Exile in lolville (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 24 April 2012 14:19 (1 year ago) Permalink

Los Lobos finally break their horrible silence

― Poliopolice, Tuesday, 24 April 2012 14:33 (1 year ago) Permalink

interesting piece on this album: http://www.firstofthemonth.org/archives/2009/08/at_ease_in_azan.html

― (The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Wednesday, 25 April 2012 00:43 (1 year ago) Permalink

ollowing “Homeless,” Simon tells us, “I don’t want no part of this crazy love.” For a record that pretends to reclaim rock-n-roll verities, this is an odd stance. The celebration of crazy love, the crazier the better, has been at the heart of the music. To surrender such nutsiness may be the merest prudence, but it is untrue to the deepest impulses of the music Simon has laid claim to here.

an odd attitude

― Exile in lolville (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 25 April 2012 00:46 (1 year ago) Permalink

I don't know what "rock and roll verities" are now or were in 1986.

― Exile in lolville (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 25 April 2012 00:47 (1 year ago) Permalink

how the fuck does graceland even have anything to do with rock and roll verities?

― call all destroyer, Wednesday, 25 April 2012 00:56 (1 year ago) Permalink

what a weird thing to fixate on

― Poliopolice, Wednesday, 25 April 2012 01:00 (1 year ago) Permalink

token Foucault reference too

When the article concentrates on musicianship it's solid though.

― Exile in lolville (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 25 April 2012 01:01 (1 year ago) Permalink

Now, Paul Simon is not to be specially faulted if his last record matters less than the elimination of chattel slavery on this continent.

ok no i can't do this

― call all destroyer, Wednesday, 25 April 2012 01:28 (1 year ago) Permalink

that "now" comma

― Exile in lolville (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 25 April 2012 01:35 (1 year ago) Permalink

ollowing “Homeless,” Simon tells us, “I don’t want no part of this crazy love.” For a record that pretends to reclaim rock-n-roll verities, this is an odd stance. The celebration of crazy love, the crazier the better, has been at the heart of the music. To surrender such nutsiness may be the merest prudence, but it is untrue to the deepest impulses of the music Simon has laid claim to here.

how does someone write this and sleep at night?

― flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Wednesday, 25 April 2012 02:17 (1 year ago) Permalink

the article's at least 80% bullshit, but i find it oddly...compelling, somehow? like, he's got sentence after sentence that makes no apparent sense at all ("the merest prudence"?), yet he retains that weird, arrogant, see-this-is-how-it-really-is attitude throughout. it's like someone crossed armond white with a drunk greil marcus.

― (The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Wednesday, 25 April 2012 04:43 (1 year ago) Permalink

the result of that union would have to be put down immediately, i would think, to spare itself and the human race.

― flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Wednesday, 25 April 2012 04:51 (1 year ago) Permalink

i dunno. i think the basic thrust of the article is sound: paul simon used african musicians and music, at a time of great crisis in south africa, in a way that lent an aura of dramatic import and moment to graceland without ever really moving outside the small sphere of his own personal concerns. this may not have been simon's intent (a point conveniently elided), but it was nonetheless the effect. he refused to really engage with the political dimensions of the "material" he was using, choosing instead to throw sops to the idea of political engagement while concentrating more fully on music as music, the political as personal. it's a fair criticism, though not a particularly toothy one in my view.

― THE KITTEN TYPE (contenderizer), Wednesday, 25 April 2012 05:36 (1 year ago) Permalink

it's like someone crossed armond white with a drunk greil marcus.

i suggest we kill it before it multiplies

― I accidentally sonned your dome (stevie), Wednesday, 25 April 2012 06:36 (1 year ago) Permalink

I agree that it's smarter and more riveting than a piece that gets so many things wrong should be. But boy, the howlers.

from Foucault’s conclusion to Madness and Civilization: “The moment when, together, the work of art and madness are born and fulfilled is the beginning of the time when the world finds itself arraigned by that work of art and responsible for what it is.” I don’t think Graceland works that way.)

― And I have been called "The Appetite" (DL), Wednesday, 25 April 2012 11:31 (1 year ago) Permalink

To surrender such nutsiness may be the merest prudence, but it is untrue to the deepest impulses of the music Simon has laid claim to here.

Anyone who was married to Carrie Fisher has got nothing to prove on the crazy love front.

― something of an astrological coup (tipsy mothra), Wednesday, 25 April 2012 13:57 (1 year ago) Permalink

just saw this pic and wondered what in the lord's name was the deal with the hat.

― tylerw, Wednesday, 25 April 2012 15:40 (1 year ago) Permalink

what to do when your roommate doesn't realize you're home and thusly is having loud sex in the living room

― Doctor Casino, Wednesday, 25 April 2012 15:43 (1 year ago) Permalink

i dunno. i think the basic thrust of the article is sound: paul simon used african musicians and music, at a time of great crisis in south africa, in a way that lent an aura of dramatic import and moment to graceland without ever really moving outside the small sphere of his own personal concerns.

this is (a) already nearly conventional wisdom and (b) not very interesting anyway.

― flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Wednesday, 25 April 2012 15:45 (1 year ago) Permalink

Just googled that hat for about 10 minutes to no avail :(

― she started dancing to that (Finefinemusic), Wednesday, 25 April 2012 15:59 (1 year ago) Permalink

it's like, why so glum, hat-guy! your wife is a total fox!

― tylerw, Wednesday, 25 April 2012 16:06 (1 year ago) Permalink

1 month passes...

new Graceland documentary airing on A&E tonight!

― some dude, Saturday, 26 May 2012 01:56 (1 year ago) Permalink

This is fascinating: he's so *abstract* about his songwriting; it's about the *patterns* in the rhythms.

― Euler, Saturday, 26 May 2012 02:59 (1 year ago) Permalink

it makes sense to me, i've always thought of his stuff as being very driven by rhythm and meter

― some dude, Saturday, 26 May 2012 03:11 (1 year ago) Permalink

i've watched that "Diamonds" performance on SNL so many times and i had no idea that they'd booked that appearance before the album release was delayed, and recorded that song while in New York for the show. nobody had ever heard that song before that broadcast! i can't even imagine how exciting that would've been.

― some dude, Saturday, 26 May 2012 03:15 (1 year ago) Permalink

whoa that is crazy

― call all destroyer, Saturday, 26 May 2012 03:29 (1 year ago) Permalink

Thanks for the tip! Enjoying this.

― she started dancing to that (Finefinemusic), Saturday, 26 May 2012 03:43 (1 year ago) Permalink

― all things must pass (shaane), Saturday, 26 May 2012 08:54 (1 year ago) Permalink

1 month passes...

new doc on BBC uk tomorrow http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01kkn74

― piscesx, Monday, 2 July 2012 16:10 (10 months ago) Permalink

i just watched the "classic albums" special on this album (on netflix streaming). cool to see how chopped up/edited the whole thing was.

― tylerw, Monday, 2 July 2012 16:11 (10 months ago) Permalink

Thanks for the tip, compulsory viewing by the looks.

― Ismael Klata, Monday, 2 July 2012 17:06 (10 months ago) Permalink

the new doc was on Irish tv on Saturday night, it's excellent. recommended viewing even if you are already very familiar with the classic albums doc (as I was).

― Volvo Twilight (p-dog), Monday, 2 July 2012 18:05 (10 months ago) Permalink

also, this: http://www.kleptones.com/blog/2012/06/28/hectic-city-15-paths-to-graceland/

a creative reconstruction of the mixtape that inspired Simon to go to Africa and make some music

― shaane, Monday, 2 July 2012 18:49 (10 months ago) Permalink

wow that looks great, thanks!

― tylerw, Monday, 2 July 2012 19:03 (10 months ago) Permalink

yeah! 1 hour 15 minutes of summery African pop beats.

― shaane, Monday, 2 July 2012 19:23 (10 months ago) Permalink

and "speaking the deep truths that artists speak" as paul simon opines on the bbc clip...

it would be nice if the talking heads didn't get in the way of fine music.

― For bodies we are ready to build pyramids (whatever), Monday, 2 July 2012 19:57 (10 months ago) Permalink

Only had time to check out the first minute of that tape, but I'm sold already - will listen again

― Ismael Klata, Monday, 2 July 2012 20:55 (10 months ago) Permalink

finally watching the new doc from the begining--LOVE the early jam version of boy in the bubble

― call all destroyer, Friday, 13 July 2012 01:04 (10 months ago) Permalink

holy shit the part where they go out to lesotho to find the old accordion dude

― call all destroyer, Friday, 13 July 2012 01:07 (10 months ago) Permalink

6 months pass...

A friend who's been obsessively listening to Graceland this (antipodean) summer has asked me to throw together a comp of, uh, Graceland-related stuff after I was enthusing about the Todd Terje edit of "Diamonds On The Soles Of Her Shoes", the 12" mix of "The Boy In The Bubble" & Lizzy Mercier Descloux's self-titled album. Apart from combing through Xgau reviews of 80s afropop/digging out my Bhundu Boys and finally getting around to hearing Peter Gabriel's Passion (+ suitable Talking Heads, I guess), what else would fit? That mixtape shaane posted a link to looks fabulous.

― etc, Thursday, 31 January 2013 01:07 (3 months ago) Permalink

I don't think stuff like Talking Heads or Peter Gabriel (neither of whom are as "African" as people claim) would fit at all. I guess I would seek out more specifically South African stuff, like "The Indestructible Beat of Soweto." The Kleptones mix upthread rules.

― Josh in Chicago, Thursday, 31 January 2013 01:24 (3 months ago) Permalink

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