Bruce Springsteen - Classic or Dud ?

I can't get worked up and annoyed about Bruce in the way I can about some other rockers. He has an ear for a great line (the opening of "Hungry Heart" for instance) and I can forgive him a lot for that. He doesn't resonate with me and like the Replacements I think that's a cultural thing.

I also - and this is totally subjective - never get the impression Bruce ever thinks he's particularly cool. Which is not something I can say of most other 'real rock'n'roller' types, mainstream or otherwise.

File under yet to be discovered. I was listening to an apologetic defence of his work from Sean Rowley on the radio the other day, and it got me wondering again. People of my generation's first real exposure to him was the 'Born in the USA' air-punching era and that obviously wasn't likely to engender much interest. Yes, I know it was all ironic.

What I have heard of his 70's stuff sounds like I might grow to love it. That midwest blue-collar world his songs inhabit seems harder to relate to than any other, but even in 1988, I had the feeling Paddy McAloon was missing the point with the song 'Cars & Girls'.

At the moment, I'm afraid the song of his I like best is a 90s one - 'If I Should Fall Behind', which I only know from the Grant McLellan cover version.

Badly Drawn Boy is a Springsteen obsessive, which I thought was quite cute.

N.

And yes, Tom, he's got a very good ear for a line.

I heard the version of "Santa Claus Is Coming To Town" when I was young and that is pretty spiff, I freely agree. Circa 1984, liking El Bruce was unsurprising for me as that was a pretty damn good radio year -- Chuck Eddy specifically called it as such in _Stairway to Hell_, and he was goddamn right. Thus liking all that stuff he made was a matter of course alongside all those singles from _Purple Rain_ and _Like A Virgin_ and etc.

Time went on and I proceeded to not care. I never cared enough to buy an album anyway, and the 'classic early singles' only made sense in my classic rock phase, which lasted about nine months in senior year.

Then I ended up in LA and encountered the first of Robert Hilburn's 345,234,843 printed sermons on How Bruce Springsteen Heals the Sick, Raises the Dead and Means More to Human Existence Than the Combined Efforts of Louis Pasteur, Billie Holiday and Charles Schulz. I encountered other blowhards. The music touched me with the impact of a dying flea. A roommate was obsessed with him to the point of near mania. I cried.

The end.

Frankly, the Walkabouts any day of the goddamn week, month, year, decade, century, etc. If the relative fame levels were reversed, I would cling to this assumption with even more deep, abiding passion because then I would have The People on my side. Even alone, though, it's comfy. And Frankie Goes to Hollywood's version of "Born to Run" is my fave.

i actually liked born_in_the_u.s.a when it came out at age 7, but later, i found it to be an obstacle in getting to love bruce, and i'm sure there are a ton of artists out there whose work at that time has kept people away from them.

as sterling said, it's funny what driving a car can do, especially when it's another dark and lonely night out on an empty anonymous new jersey highway and "born to run" comes on the highway. but i've been there, so i'll move on.

you can get by on the first five or so albums on the music and production alone -- unless of course you hate phil spector and are, therefore, destined to spend eternity in hell -- and the later stuff will stick if you find something in the lyrics that rings far too true. sure, he mines the same territory in a lot of his songs, but so do belle & sebastian and so did the smiths; except the kids in bruce's songs could kick the ass of their counterparts in the aforementioned.

ned, i think you have the same problem as tom: it's a cultural thing. ;)

It's not a cultural thing; I mean for god's sake Motorcycle Emptiness might as well be Bruce Springsteen on a literacy trip in terms of subject, and I know Tom likes the song, and I believe Ned does too. Whether that particular statement was tongue in cheek or not, it's a tired excuse and reasoning, one usually used by the saddest of Bruce Springsteen fans, the ones who "identify" with his sentiments, seemingly losing track of the fact that BRUCE'S CHARACTERS NEVER ACTUALLY MAKE IT OUT. Some positive role models to rock out to.

The thing is, I think it's the voice and the earnestness, which was already said. The stylistic values of it....the basic cultural and escape sentiments, lyrically, of Motorcycle Emptiness and Born to Run might be very similar in tone, but the style and vocalisings are entirely, 100% different. Bruce has a very sarcastic bent, a very dark bent, lyrically, but his style of music softens the blow and sometimes people just don't like it.

And those people are wrong, incidentally :P

Nebraska is half good but doesn't deserve the plaudits it gets as the Springsteen album it's cool to like.

The rest is pretty much DUD.

Nevermind that Born in the USA was my first record not meant to be played on the Fisher Price record player (with the STEEL NEEDLE)

Nevermind Tracks Nevermind the fact that Born to Run is one of the best driving albums ever when your top is down and it's summer and the road between Ventura and home stretches out and empty at night with no cops...

Nevermind he has out Dylan-ed Dylan

Nevermind that he can outrage The Man as he pushes the dark side of life. (41 Shots)

Nevermind the line "The record company Rosie, JUST GAVE ME A BIG ADVANCE!"

Nevermind the Live box set, reminding us just how powerful he was

Nevermind Time and Newsweek

Nevermind Thunder-Fucking-Road

Nevermind The cover of Jersey Girl

Nevermind Tracks

Nevermind the MTV Unplugged set where he scrapped the entire notion of an acoustic show and just plugged in and tore down the house

Nevermind everyone on this list who called him a dud.

well, Bruce isn't *that* bad! ;)

La Bruce just collectively calls to my mind a stunted bastard vision of music that presumes he was the sole carrier of the 'spirit of rock and roll truth' that the Beatles and Stones 'started' in the sixties. A CLAIM I HAVE ENCOUNTERED MORE THAN ONCE, though thankfully not here, and happily never from the man's own lips either, at least to my knowledge. Without that rhetoric I would just shrug and ignore him for somebody more interesting, but with it, frankly, he becomes a very very useful target to kick against. Perhaps only a straw man, but one I wouldn't mind seeing go up in flames.

The boy has fallen off of late, but... I'm reminded of the Bangs article where he describes how he dismissed this Maoist band as sounding like Bruce, and the band replied "oh, good, the working class like that stuff" or something of the sort, and I'm reading this thinking -- no. no. no. The correct answer is "oh, good. Bruce fucking rocks!"

What I appreciate about Bruce is how he can capture the majesty of a major chord. How so many of his songs have the same progression, but you don't realize it 'till you try to play 'em yourself. How he can take gospel music and write it to a girl instead. And yes, more of them damn anthems.

I mean.. I know that anthems aren't an alien concept to the UK -- after all, The Who were full of them. But maybe British anthems are a different type a "get off of my cloud" or "sod off" type, more cynical and pissy than dreamy and wide-eyed. Maybe this is, after all, because America is The Big Country, The Great Bitch, et cet. Maybe to get America you have to get just how there's always somewhere you might go, maybe.

Along these lines, "Not Fade Away" which is a novel by Jim Dodge is a great rock road story, sort of like the lighter side of Richard Hell's "Go Now" or the more earnest(?) side of Bruce McCullough's "Doors Fan" sketch (on his album, Shame-Based Man). Yes. Get that spirit of the open highway.

I will say, though, that I do lack a car and have never had one. That might serve as a better explanation. ;-)

I wish I wasn't misinterpreting.

Inspirational in some ways. I have often felt that England needed a Springsteen, albeit not just a a copycat 'rocker'; I mean, someone who would write about all the lost and found small-town lives. But to be fair, I suppose there is already a UK tradition here: the probably Jarvis Cocker is a case in point.

1. they don't understand that he's actually not as "pro-america" as they might think he is

2. they don't have as close a connection to "old school" code (which includes "old school" rock)

3. they are mostly college kids on their way up to some office job or whatever that is removed (if not far removed) from the "underworld" (the "blue collar" or "real" world) to get the lyrical sentiments

4. well, and...sometimes people just don't like something 'cause they just don't like it

I, however, do not apply to any of those 4. For I actually do "get" some of the appeal of Bruce (albeit, it took my until my mid or late twenties to get there). Sure, his overly sentimental (downright broadway or maudlin) look at the working class can be a bit (or a bunch) too much. And sure, his music can be too simple and/or too derivitive. But, that's a part of the whole. Familiarity in both music and lyrics, is a large part of the appeal of his stuff (and those like him, ala Mellencamp, etc). He just had the concept to put nearly a whole career on the working class/blue collar life like no other has (not in such a wide reaching broad sense, at least - other than Mellencamp, but Bruce did it a bit better and first).

Classics:

Having said all that, 'Nebraska' and 'Ghost of Tom Joad' are the only two full albums that I would declare anywhere near a "classic" state of existence (with 'Nebraska' being the one clear-cut vote). Many of the rest of his 70's and 80's albums have some good solid worthy singles on them, but. I can't go so far as to get 'The River' (for example) anywhere near a "classic" nod. That one, in particular, I find to be overrated (though still having the wonderful track "Stolen Car" and the title track deserving of 'Nebraska'-like attention).

Anyways, I forgot to mention to huge (to the point of shadowing) element as to one of the why's (or why not's) of enjoy/appreciating Bruce. Which is: DRIVING. Cars and driving is such a central and/or reoccuring figure/subject in his work that...I can't believe I forgot to touch upon that (only after reading some of the others posts, darn it). But yea, I do LOVE to drive. Which also helps to explain the appeal of Springsteen (to me, at least).

*By the way, I do own that McCulloch album 'Shame Based Man' and...love it (some really funny stuff and one of the very rare comedy albums worthy of many plays - if not it's own discussion here on "I Love Music"...anyone?). Every single one of my girlfriends (one present, others past) hated it. "And if (after torching the stolen car) you can still hear the Doors playing...then you have become...a DOORS...FAN!" I'm not a Doors fan, however.

I hadn't listened to this record in a couple of years, but god, it still sounded great. Actually, I kept getting shivers down my spine when it was playing and it had me close to tears a few times (mostly on "Thunder Road" and "Backstreets.") Listening to this today finally settled an ILM debate for me: Music can never affect me quite as much now as it did when I was a teenager. No record I've heard in the last few years, including Loveless, has had as much affect on me as Born to Run did this morning, and I know it's not just because Born to Run is such a great album. This is a record that got to me when I was young and emotionally vulnerable in a way that I'm not anymore, at the age of 32. I still feel music very deeply and appreciate and enjoy a wider range of music than ever, but music doesn’t completely overpower me the way it did when I was 15. Oh well.

Springsteen is still a big classic, by the way, despite all the incredibly corny lines on Born to Run.

"candy's room" is the grebtest song ever written about being in love w. a prostitute when you sound a bit like david bowie

Is this a new genre? Cos that'd be fucking incredible.

I still love Bruce Springsteen. Put on Rosalita and you will see me go insane.

Yeah, new album is weak. Basically just an excuse for the live shows, though, which according to what I've heard remain wonderful.

Found this at the near start of the thread, dunno if Ned can be bothered to talk about it now:

La Bruce just collectively calls to my mind a stunted bastard vision of music that presumes he was the sole carrier of the 'spirit of rock and roll truth' that the Beatles and Stones 'started' in the sixties.

Odd, because Springsteen's own views are the exact opposite- he was always far less interested in The Beatles and The Rolling Stones than he was in Phil Spector and James Brown.

Though he always does look really tense and "real rock" when he performs.

It used to be such that every time I got drunk, the evening would end with me and a gentleman companion in the group deciding to put on Dancing in the Dark and imitating the Boss & Courteney Cox dance. This has thankfully not occured in a long time now.

Ah, to explain my sense further -- there I wasn't referring to exact sound (I hope) so much as the role he seems to be in. I don't like universal idolatry, but personal, and so much around Bruce is "my god, the genius is among us all again! DO YOU SEE!" insistence that just makes me hate him even more. Like I said above in that quote, I don't get the sense that he believes that garbage (if he takes Dave Marsh at all seriously, though, that's a pisser).

And as for the music itself, a lot of people love Phil Spector and James Brown. In my mind, that doesn't give them a free pass for their own efforts. ;-)

My only realization about Bruce recently has been when I finally heard Bat Out of Hell and realized I loved that a hell of a lot more than any Springsteen I've heard.

Yeah, Nebraska is a pretty OK album, but I recall at the time that it was more noteworthy as an advertisement for Tascam's portastudio than as any kind of artistic breakthrough.

Even so, I'll give him a "Get Out Of Dud Free" card for this, which I think is pretty goddamn cool.

He could have quite after Born to Run and still be classic classic classic. That album is one of the great moments in pop music history, and a cultural icon (in the States at least).

Even if you don't like his music, he's still classic.

And it is about time people start liking "Born In The USA" again. Just because the album sold zillions doesn't make it a bad album.

Of course the adulation is typically overboard. But what do you expect for someone who has had, at least at moments, near-Madonna-level pop smarts and still gets content, even poetry, into his lyrics?

One of the differences between him and "heartland rock" - r&b. A greater proportion of it, at least. Who else (besides the aforementioned Californians) has had such a sound during the same period at remotely similar levels of popularity?

but he loses that card for this, the final page of the aforementioned document, in which mr. springsteen proves he can't spell "asbury park."

i otherwise kinda like springsteen, so perhaps i'm not the best to answer this, but i'd say his career mathematically boils down to this:

1. great singer
2. damn good songwriter (despite a huge drop-off in the '90s)
3. fair-to-average, overrated bar-band backing (playing mostly hackneyed arrangements)
4. poor production (i like "born to run" just fine, but after that it's just so completely lacking in punch and warmth i can't believe he's ever been lauded for it)

"nebraska" discards with (3) and (4), leaving him playing entirely to his strengths. and as it happens his songwriting hit a peak at the same time. i'd say it's far and away his best.

i'd have to guess anyone owns the record knew, what with him screaming those lyrics out for the entire length of the song, not to mention the fact that he included a lyric sheet. that'd be 15 or 20 million people right there.

Wonderful and glorious. No, no need to thank me.

the 2nd verse of "41 shots" is heartbreaking, astonishing. the rest of the song doesn't quite live up to it.

also the man can sing. i don't like the way he pronounces "somewhere" (mumbled: "some-wahr") BUT: "lit-tle-world-fal-lin-apart"!!!

My mom loved his music, and I think it has something of a sentimental value for me for that reason. But I think it's deserved. Perhaps this is a cheap shot (bcuz I know there are poor ppl who don't like him) but I think most people who have ever been on the underside of reaganomix will agree that he spoke for people who needed someone like him. I don't care how un-hip it is to say that I like his music because it speaks to me from a place that few kinds of music do - certainly moreso than Frankie Goes to Hollywood.

Favorite work of his: side two of Tunnel of Love. A perfect piece.

That embarrasment aside, I do still like Bruce, though. For one thing, I like that (apart from Nebraska), his most depressing songs are also his most clappy-singalong songs. "Hungry Heart," "Born in the USA," "Cadillac Ranch", etc.

The "heartleand" thing" is more complicated than people who live there are willing to admit -- that's the problem. They ought to be populist (if not leftist), but they're not. They have a habit of ignoring their own reality in favor of something that someone told them was "simple." They buy "simple" like it was bread, and swallow it whole, and don't even realize they're choking on it.

But anyway... you're right, Springsteen does not fit into that mold, not by a mile.

"Ought to be?" Nothing more amusing than someone who isn't part of a group dictating to them what their preferences and priorities should be, as if they're too stupid to figure it out for themselves.

Anyway, "Downbound Train" > "Dancing In The Dark" > "Born in the USA", as far as that album goes.

Yeah, I like that one.

i agree. love for this song suddenly sprung upon me within the last four or five years. i was pretty indifferent to it, and then one day i was driving (naturally) and it came on the radio (of course) and that was it. i saw bruce last summer at meadowlands, and i cried twice (you want to hear atlantic city in a stadium in the dark with tens of thousands of people around you absolutely silent).

i sort of imagine springsteen has a randy old man album in him, but he'll have to get all the faith/hope/redemption metaphors out of his system first.

the river: i'm partial to "the ties that bind," "stolen car," "ramroad," "the price you pay" (not sure why i like this one so much). "wreck on the highway" is a really amazingly clear expression of a very simple and powerful idea, though i'm starting to like it a bit less than before. "hungry heart" i like, but i think i need to listen to it harder. (??)

i love "bobbie jean."

a lot of the now-officially-released-formerly-unreleased stuff is unspeakably bad. maybe 15% of it is good.

that makes (at least) two springsteen songs inspired by badlands, btw.

bruce actually has written some amazing lyrics post-1987, but in general he can't seem to get the balance of abstraction and the particular as right as he once had.

and something has gone off about his music, too. critics tend to be glib about this, but i think it's fairly complicated. his gift for melody has withered a bit. i would say his gift for instrumental texture too, but even something like "lucky town" has a nice feel for the basic rock setup.

his "simplicity" definitely has the feel of an *earned* simplicity, a paring down... which is exactly what it is, since his first records had fairly sprawling melodies and arrangements.

Those are my 3 faves, although on a song-by-song basis both Born in the USA and Tunnel of Love beat Darkness, which (as has been noted) has its dodgy moments. But the stuff that's good on Darkness is good in some really interesting ways. I think he came into his own there, figured out more what worked for him and what didn't. He kept the big anthems, but he also finally figured out the quiet end -- it's the first album that anticipates Nebraska, especially the title track. And even the anthems got more pointed and pared down. Like, "poor man wanna be rich/ rich man wanna be king/ and a king ain't satisfied until he rules everything/ I wanna go out tonight, I wanna find out what I got" -- I mean, that's a great fucking lyric, especially joined to the jumping-out-of-his-skin throb of the song. It combines dawning political consciousness with adolescent will to power, and suggests without even meaning to the roots of fascism. And it locates all that in small-town Midwestern we-gotta-get-out-of-this-place cockiness, just barely covering up for a growing certainty that he ain't going nowhwere. (Which is kind of the theme of the whole album, I think, even more than "Born to Run" -- on Born to Run there still seemed to be some kind of idea that all that mythic shit would add up to something, but "Darkness" kind of put an end to that.)

Also, for all its cheesiness, I love "Candy's Room" just for the pure horny build and release of it. ("Prove It All Night," on the other hand, never really gets going -- he makes it sound way too much like work.)

Then The River...the blue-collar record. It's all working men and docks and factories and families. They date, they fall in love, they get married. They have fun on a Friday night (I admit to being a sucker for "Out in the Street," which is like the best beer-commercial song ever). But things go wrong, times get hard (on account o' the economy), men wander go out for a ride and they never come back. And even if nothing really bad happens, there's always some dead kid on a dark road to remind you where it's all headed. Favorites: "Hungry Heart," of course, because the narrator from the beginning seems aware of the weakness of his excuse (hey babe, I got a hungry heart, what can I say?), but also because there's something not bullshit about "everybody got a hungry heart" and "ain't nobody like to be alone." "Cadillac Ranch," which is basically a rewrite of "Swing Low Sweet Chariot" with James Dean and Junior Johnson in supporting roles -- the most rollicking Grim Reaper song ever (long and dark, shiny and black, pulled up to the house today, and it took my little girl away).
The title track, which is metaphorically overladen but to me makes up for it with the last verse (I just act like I don't remember/ Mary acts like she don't care/ but I rememember us riding in my brother's car, etc.), which just fucking hearts it's so good. Also, the fact that the song's preceded by a brace of exactly the kind of cocky teenage come-ons that got Mary pregnant in the first place ("Crush on You", "You Can Look (but You Better Not Touch)", "I Wanna Marry You") is some kind of brilliant sequencing.

And I love love love "Sherry Darling," which is maybe his funniest song, but still also a little desperate (he can't get this fucking noisy, nosy prospective mother-in-law out of his car or his life). And it has a hook like a shipyard crane.

Nebraska I wouldn't even know where to start talking and I've said enough, so I'll confine myself to "Reason to Believe," which -- like a lot of his stuff -- tends to get misread. The set-up is simple: every verse, something shitty happens, and at the end of every hard-earned day people find some reason to believe. There's nothing hopeful about it (especially not coming at the end of that album). The most he can bring himself to say is that it strikes him kind of funny. Take that as you will.

I meant hurts. I think. Whichever.

"Well now everything dies baby that's a fact/But maybe everything that dies someday comes back"

"I wanna spit in the face of these badlands"

"Sometimes it's like someone took a knife baby edgy and dull and cut a six-inch valley through the middle of my skull"

"Sheriff when the man pulls that switch sir and snaps my poor head back / You make sure my pretty baby is sittin' right there on my lap"

"There's a girl across the bar / I get the message she's sendin' /Mmm she ain't lookin' too married /And me well honey I'm pretending"

"In the wee wee hours your mind gets hazy, radio relay towers lead me to my baby / Radio's jammed up with talk show stations / It's just talk, talk, talk, talk, till you lose your patience"

"The dogs on Main Street howl / 'cause they understand"

everytime he sings "sir" on nebraska

all of "if i should fall behind" (yes, in his abstract homily mode)

"into the fire" also wins an award for its admirable directness

- "southside johnny"

how so?

Meat Loaf is Springsteen as Broadway show tunes self-consciously instead of unintentionally

been out in that south american sunshine a bit too long today, ned?

But I'm no fan of America's heartland or its prophets in any way

i don't know what this means. it has little or nothing to do with springsteen's body of work.

ned:springsteen::me:smashing pumpkins

(except i'm right)

that hits on exactly what i don't like about springsteen in the '90s and beyond. yeah, that particular song was 1984, but he'd been planting the seeds of the problem for a while. the problem being his really awful use of overused, overworked, high-school literary cliches, which reached a sad peak on "human touch" and "lucky town." rain. birds. rivers. over and over and over. blah blah blah. he telegraphs his intended meaning in such a ham-handed way that if he were a basketball player, every pass he ever threw would be stolen.

hmm, can't say i've ever heard any humor in his delivery. but in either case, it's the later stuff that bugs me a lot more.

but what i liked about the good half, including the title song, was that it DIDN'T come off like he was trying to will it into being. it sounded like an immediate, gut response to a moment, for better or worse. as opposed to something like ghost of tom joad, which sounds like he spent weeks and months trying to will a classic folk record into being, and the results are nearly unlistenable.

"if i should fall behind" is a good example of a song that remains, for the most part, in the realm of metaphor, but works very well.

i mean that in the sense of tuneless, humorless and lifeless. it's been a long time since i tried listening to it, but when i did, my memory is that i couldn't -- didn't want to -- finish a single song.

On the other hand, the case against: Ian Duncan Smith voted "City of Ruins" his favourite song on Desert Island Discs.

Why do you prefer self-concious show tunes to unintenional ones?

1.I think Springsteen's best LPs are his first three, all released before he started to shave.
2. Interestingly, by comparison, Bob Seger (often unfairly-but-not-without-some-justification compared to Bruce) QUIT shaving around the same time, and yet his music likewise declined!
3. The near-simultaneous release of the Dictators' "Cars And Girls" might've rendered "Born To Run" unnecessary, but for the fact that "Born To Run" is not only a good song but an amazing production, possibly the man's finest. My favourite, anyways.
4. And speaking of producers, I'll never understand what the hell's so great about Phil Spector anyways, my Ronettes and Crystals fandom notwithstanding.
5. Aside from the title cut, the Born In The USA single I recall most fondly is "Cover Me", because it's the most inconsequential.
6.Live on TV in '92, Springsteen totally surprised me by spicing up the otherwise useless "57 Channels" with some amazingly skronky guitar soloing, beating Sonic Youth at their own game. (And I was still a SY fan back then.)
7.As for the importance of cars/driving in Bruce's work and the appreciation thereof, don't ask me. I never much liked driving, haven't had a valid license in 5 years and haven't driven at all in 10 years. (Last time was June '94, 3 days before OJ Simpson's Bronco chase, incidentally! I remember these things.)

hmmm. i've always thought that was the exact moment where he jumped the shark.

exemplary solo: "candy's room." a song that i wouldn't mind hearing stephin merritt cover.

though really what "spare parts" sounds most like is one of the rejected tracks that later turned up on tracks (hmmm, so does "downbound train"). so maybe it's not that bruce's writing really dropped off, but his ability to divide the dross from the good stuff did.

guitarist: what's strangest is that he often has BOTH nils lofgren and s. van zant on stage with him, and *still* takes most of the guitar solos, and generally tends to rock them.

I'd like to hear Stuart Murdoch do that one too...(I guess fantasy Bruce covers would be a separate thread)

dave q i want to hear your thoughts on the lyrics to the rising

ama!" i don't know what this means. it has little or nothing to do with springsteen's body of work.

Oh, I dunno am!. I think it has an awful lot to do with it. Being from the south I always regarded that ultra-sincere midwestern/Jersey roots thing as something a bit exotic...the sound of displaced persons in factories and all that. Of course I know it's not that simple but it never really was my experience. I like stuff folks call "roots" music, a stupid term...I like Los Lobos, who just seem fleeter than Springsteen. Blues and r&b. I'm sure Bruce likes that stuff too. And theoretically I admire his subject matter, since I'm aware of the very real history of "workingman in Detroit" or Cleveland or, wherever. But BS turns it into something mythical and I'm not sure it's the right sort of myth. And musically he's just boring, it's all overdone. Like a lot of people I can stomach "Nebraska" and some of his "Tunnel of Love" material because on the one hand it's stripped of all that pomp, and on the other because it's honestly a bit cheesy pop. In general, though, to give you an example of what my preferences are, I feel that Marshall Crenshaw is far more of a real musical thinker and that Crenshaw's in some ways similar obsessions--guy from somewhere else engages with New York, which is a theme of Crenshaw's "Field Day"--just aren't as ponderous. In my opinion there's plenty of heavy pop music that's worthwhile but overall I see it as a form that ought to be light.

Meltzer maintains that BS took the supposed non-threatening '50s and the "ideological" and "demotic" '60s and combined them into a kind of sitcom version of rock history. Thus discounting what really went on in the '50s, which was fairly brutal and often threatening, and in the '60s, which was of course "demotic," "democratic" but also obsessed with glamour--which Springsteen lacks in a major way. There really was a pretty sharp break between the rock of the '50s and the '60s and the Boss isn't true to either one or to the break itself. I find this hard to refute given my listening to BS (and I have listened to him, since a lot of people I know love the guy, I've had to endure live recordings and all the rest and despite my efforts to appreciate have almost always come away completely unmoved). I mean I sort of appreciate Seger in a way, he does sing well, and it seems closer to my own admittedly personal experience of good ol' boys who went to Detroit City to work and who felt sad about it--I get some of that true melancholy from Seger, and I just get a bad amusement park ride from Springsteen...

There really was a pretty sharp break between the rock of the '50s and the '60s and the Boss isn't true to either one or to the break itself

why does this matter? he made his first album in 1972.

but also obsessed with glamour--which Springsteen lacks in a major way.

His early stuff's pretty glamorous, as are his live shows (if sweat drenched blue-collar chic is its own glamour, which it is.)

but what would being true to the break entail? and why on earth does it matter? this is one of the most ridiculous criticisms that i've ever read. then again, it's from meltzer. maybe i'm dense but he's always struck me as being extraordinarily full of shit.

'happy days' wz first broadcast in '74.

also re: prophet, the bible has some interesting things on that word amt.

and you can fuck off with your precious pithy putdowns of other people's loves.

i still don't understand what julio wrote. hence, it's cryptic *to me.*

i'm not in a bad mood at all, ned, believe it or not.

Well, if you feel it's something that must be done, but personally that sounds a little strange to me. For myself, I don't insist anyone has to or must 'engage' with any artist I like before they're entitled to an opinion, what's the point of that? Just tell me whether you've heard it or not and what you think! An opposing viewpoint from me won't make anyone change their mind based on their own tastes, the only decision or change of opinion that matters is one's own.

I outlined what I thought about La Bruce way up top, how I heard him and 'engaged' with him, if you must use the term. I find him irrelevant to my interests.

i'm not in a bad mood at all, ned, believe it or not.

Which is good.

was it all for this
that andrew shut down this place?
HAVE WE LEARNT NOTHING

It mattered to some people in '72 because the '60s were a huge explosion of culture and they didn't want what was perceived to perhaps be a cartoon to take its place. Meltzer once went up to the stage at an Eagles concert and pounded on it with his fist.

Tim, so Meltzer = rockist hippie desperate to save the purity of his decade from the post-modern recontextualization onslaught of The Eagles? Does that make Springsteen the Momus of his time??

Dancing to "Born In The USA" outside the wine bar at Glastonbury with nobody I knew: wonderful.

Is Springsteen sentimental?

(I can sympathise with Meltzer but I wasn't there and couldn't have been there so pfft)

with his fist? that showed them, i'll bet.

I ws wrong, I never posted. phew etc.

That's all really, the happy days part of my post was after eddie's bit abt how meltzer (I do love the guy, this thread actually reminded me to order a copy of 'aesthetics or rock' from the library and that has just come through so I'm off to get it) thought of springsteen as the fonz, which to me wz hilarious and I could totally see => even though I've heard that one song used on that movie ('philadelphia' or whatever). oh, and 'born in the usa'.

On the q of 'engagement': yeah you do need to engage with things for a while, I didn't like ppl on the alvin lucier thread just saying its 'bawring' (ENRQ-- who came across as a jaded indie fan). Its the diff between eddie and jack cole's posting on this thread.

(yes I have been very guilty of dismissing things in the past i know i know mea culpa)

...for what purpose, though? If you want to argue that it's one of trying to advance a detailed covers-all-bases argument -- and that need not be essay-length or anything -- I see the point. But that's not how we listen to all music all the time, never has been, surely.

Ned, to put it very bluntly: because people feel strongly about the music they love, and thus (even tho it's all subjective and yadda yadda yadda) hearing their fave artists get flippantly dismissed tends to make them angry...or, well, maybe I shouldn't say "people", it makes me angry, anyway, even tho I know that's silly. So really, if you don't wanna "dig deeper" as it were, why express your opinion at all? No one's forcing Springsteen on ya!

But saying that because one doesn't want to 'dig deeper' brings into the question of 'why have an opinion to start with?' -- that I'll object to strongly. Opinion and reaction is not quantifiable on a universal scale (yes, an obvious trope, but bear with me) -- it didn't take even a full song for me to start REALLY hating Rage Against the Machine 12 years ago, and I couldn't have been more engaged with it if I tried, I was at a show surrounded by tons of fans, including a slew of friends, and they were all going crazy with excitement. Similarly earlier this year when I saw the Mars Volta open for A Perfect Circle, I thought they were pretty good, then asked my friends about it -- one said, "I hated it from the first minute in and couldn't wait for it to get finished," and the rest agreed. Am I supposed to say, "You're not FEELING it, man!" or something? Heavens no, it was said, it was valid, we talked about it for a bit, talked about other things a lot more, saw A Perfect Circle (who were great) and I lost no sleep. The conversation didn't need to be interesting, however that's meant to be measured, for the opinions to matter.

(At his most rock nostalgiac, Springsteen's vision of the fifties and the sixties is really more a wised-up vision of the early sixties: Spector, Pitney, Del Shannon et al with 'poetic' Dylan damage.)

Mind you, I'm not saying that engaging or "getting" an artist has to result in liking or even tolerating them: I'm just saying that I think it's kinda necessary to at least *try* to see the other side's point of view and see how that effects your own judgement, otherwise I don't see the point. It's a lot to do with how you go about things, of course: "you're failing to engage with the artist" can just as easily be interpreted as "OMG YOU'RE LISTENING ALL WRONG!!", which I agree is a silly statement, as it can be interpreted as "well, why don't you look at it this way?", which I think is one of the main purposes of discussing music...trying to figure out what someone else hears in it to enrichen your own listening experience, be it positive or negative.

Looking at Bruce in the other ways described above are interesting enough, I suppose, but they just don't change the core feeling that I'm exhausted by his music, bored with his singing, unmoved by his subject matter, nonplussed with the combination in toto. The cartoon pop Tico alludes to above is about all I can or would want to stand these days, and even that well runs dry swiftly. The one observation I find quite moving in recent posts is Lauren's take on hearing "Atlantic City" in a silent but packed arena, a striking image. Then again, were I there I would be resisting the urge to shout or scream or just do something to disrupt the hush (because I wouldn't want to be then beaten up).

Now let's use the Pumpkins again as a counter-example -- everything I lurve about them is so specifically keyed in to my own particular set of expectations and ability to be thrilled that something like my 136 list essay on Mellon Collie -- like just about everything else I write, I'd wager -- reads less like a call to engage with something or a response to objections than a simple explanation of why I like something. Does something like what I wrote actually enrichen anyone's negative viewpoint on the band? How?

Ok, so none of the explanations given on this thread have managed to make you look at DA Boss in a different light, too bad. But surely you're not suggesting that NO explanation EVER will possibly be able to do that? Because that sounds kinda sad to me (sad as in sad, not sad as in pathetic.)

You might be right about the casual conversation thing; I guess it's just a bit hard to distinguish between who's in Serious Analysis Mode and who's in Casual Banter mode sometimes, which might account for a lot of the conflict on this thread. For what it's worth, I still don't see the attraction of the "hey btw guys, I really hate this" post; it strikes me as childish, flippant and smug...but then, I guess I just hate flippancy in general, especially because I tend to engage in it so much myself despite knowing better, so different strokes for different folks, I guess.

I apologize in advance for splitting hairs here -- are you talking about an explanation actually changing my mind about La Bruce's work (which I doubt severely) or simply one which results in a situation where I acknowledge that others see something different in his work? Besides I do already acknowledge that!

Possibly, but genre is one hell of a slippery subject, and personally I think there would be as much division as there is unity. If you like, consider -- who or what is more 'funky,' the Red Hot Chili Peppers or Timbaland?

(note to self: learn latin, sign contract with indie label)

i don't take meltzer's stuff as gospel--he's not a prophet, obviously. there's a certain kneejerk resentment present in a lot of his work--i think it comes from his determination to, perhaps, love rock for its simultaneous evasion of meaning and bedrock simplicity?

but i do think that his point--it's reprinted in his "whore just like the rest" collection which i can't put my hands on right now--is that bruce is a cartoon of the "rebellion" of the '50s and the "political consciousness" of the '60s. and i got nothing against either one, in fact i think they're both essential, otherwise i wouldn't take the trouble to communicate here on this board, or think about rock and roll at all. and i think it's a point worth thinking about.

for me, i simply don't need bruce springsteen for either "rebellion" or for "political consciousness." in america, and certainly down here in the southern part of the country, folks often could use a lot of more of both. and i think political consciousness often engenders rebellion, and again, i'm for it. i do believe that springsteen is sincere and not tin pan alley like billy joel, for example, but aesthetically i sometimes prefer tin pan alley in its pure form. dumb pop. which is hardly a new idea and can certainly lead one down the road to "incredibly strange music" and all that shit, but it can also lead to something else. which i am often as confused about as meltzer or anyone else who loves rock and roll...what the fuck is it?

aesthetically i just don't connect with bruce's overstatement. it just seems musclebound and obvious to me, and the poignance it's going for doesn't work for me either. does that make me shallow, that i get far more from fred wesley and the jbs than bruce, that i think their dumb party non-tunes contain more real "rebellion" and "political consciousness" than bruce, that their making a joke out of watergate on several mindless instrumental numbers with guitar and trombone solos is kind of what i need (i'll read history or the newspaper to get the rest)?

but as i say, i'm a rock fan and there are times when i think bruce has done some fairly cool stuff. overall, though, i enjoy thinking of him as the fonz far too much to worry about him much more than that. i mean part of the point of rock aesthetics as i see them is that it IS hard and maybe pointless to make distinction between "analysis mode" and "flippancy." and i'm dead serious about that!

I also think it's weird to think of him as a political-consciousness or rebellion guy; on those 5 records, anyway, he's much more about desperation and self-doubt -- even the anthems, which is what really trips people up.

Defend the Indefensible 7: Leonard Cohen

one of the more succint OTM posts on ILM, pretty much sums up my feelings about Nedly.

dave q. has made a version of this observation, and (if i decipher him correctly) so has christgau, but all the same: one thing that i think makes songs like "badlands" powerful is that they don't resort to a simple irony. the character whose voice springsteen sings in believes that his faith and love will allow him, by some magic, to transcend his present condition. rather than undercut this belief with a mournful tune/arrangement, springtseen keys the song/arrangement to the character's sense of hope and anger. thus: first we are asked to wholly empathize with this character, and the critical reflection will come (if it comes) only afterward.... or to make it less linear, there is a constant interplay between empathy and critical distance. thus lending the song something of the power of, well, say ford's fort apache where we see the cavalry march off to their certain deaths for a pointless cause AND understand and even admire their reasons for doing so.

not all springsteen songs work like this. nebraska is straightforwardly dejected, fatalistic much of the time, and when there is a hint of hope or a belief in transcendence, it's meant to seem small, pathetic. the irony is rather more pat.... not to say it's not a powerful record, it is, but i think perhaps this situation accounts for the fact that so many people who otherwise have difficulty appreciating springsteen really like that record.

but i can't think of a better metaphor to explain this. maybe someone can help?

Oh well. You can't start a fire worryin' 'bout your little world fallin' apart.

I was in a really bad relationship at the time.

I still see Born to Run as being a hopeful song but in the context of "Are you going to take this chance or are you going to sit on your ass in your stupid car on the parkway, you loser?" type of kick in the ass way.

I had no patience for Born in the USA for the longest time because I had to take a cross-country roadtrip with my entire family when I was about 12. The only tape my dad felt fit to bring with him, basically, was Born in the USA. 6 days of No Surrender stuck in a car with three screaming young children, a cat, two birds, FOUR dogs and your parents starts to really get to you. Recently I started listening to it again and kind of realized that I think Working on the Highway and Dancing in the Dark and I'm On Fire and I'm Going Down and even No Surrender are some of the greatest moments rock had to offer in the '80s.

But then also there's all those huge unbelieveable hooks, which is what made it sell a zillion copies and made everybody (including Springsteen?) misunderstand what was going on. And it's not like the hooks are bullshit, the hooks are great. There really is joy in the title track, no matter what the words say. I heard Max Weinberg once say that was his favorite song to play, and it shows. That album is really Springsteen grappling head-on with the contradictions between what he wanted to believe and what he actually knew (and what you knew he knew, coming right off Nebraska). It's a great big crisis of faith album, and it resolved nothing at all. "Dancing in the Dark" for damn sure.

Maybe we are just all getting old and losing our idealism.

It's an interesting take, at the least. That said, it slightly begs a question to my mind in that you could apply a similar argument to most anything else that is on-the-face-of-it cheery and hopeful -- if reflection and implied irony is strictly in the realm of the reader (or rather auditor), then theoretically I could apply that to every upbeat Britney song, say.

Then again, some of us might at heart just simply not like most of the music and singing...

I can understand just not liking the music and the singing, mind you, that's in the eye of the beholder. Or, uh, the ear of the auditor.

But they are normal words for me! Grad school does that to you! ;-)

half of America is apparently too stupid to actually LISTEN to the lyrics of Born in the USA

I think this sorta ties in with my argument that I don't listen for the lyrics much in the first place at all. If anything I'd argue I just spell out what most people actually feel when it comes to lyrics in the first place, though I can hardly claim to know everyone's mind on the matter in the Great Wide World. "Born in the USA" wasn't a hit because it was a reflective poetry reading on the meaning of loss and frustration, it was because people got off on the music.

Faulting him for people completely not getting it is kind of unfair.

Ah, my friend, thus we move into the perilous question of how one defines sonics in specifically verbal terms (trust me, I have no answer to that one and never will).

Faulting him for people completely not getting it is kind of unfair.

Is faulting everyone for not understanding what someone is 'really' trying to say equally unfair, though? *shrug* I have no answer to that one. I mean, there are some people who think that Morrissey only sings suicide anthems. I could spend all day arguing about everything from humor to pop references to film-star iconography instead, but I admit it's not really something that troubles me so much.

Actually, this is interesting, because thinking back to when I first heard the song, about the two things that stood out the most were the opening part about a dead man's town and the guy who died in Vietnam. I can't say I was particularly saddened or regretful about any of that, though, I wasn't moved to tears -- was it because I was only 13, was it because Vietnam was just a name and ancient history for me, or (as I'd argue is more likely, but who knows) were they just words?

For the record:

Born down in a dead man's town
The first kick I took was when I hit the ground
You end up like a dog that's been beat too much
Till you spend half your life just covering up
Born in the U.S.A.
I was born in the U.S.A.
I was born in the U.S.A.
Born in the U.S.A.
Got in a little hometown jam
So they put a rifle in my hand
Sent me off to a foreign land
To go and kill the yellow man
Born in the U.S.A.
I was born in the U.S.A.
I was born in the U.S.A.
I was born in the U.S.A.
Born in the U.S.A.
Come back home to the refinery
Hiring man says "Son if it was up to me"
Went down to see my V.A. man
He said "Son, don't you understand"
I had a brother at Khe Sahn fighting off the Viet Cong
They're still there, he's all gone
He had a woman he loved in Saigon
I got a picture of him in her arms now
Down in the shadow of the penitentiary
Out by the gas fires of the refinery
I'm ten years burning down the road
Nowhere to run ain't got nowhere to go
Born in the U.S.A.
I was born in the U.S.A.
Born in the U.S.A.
I'm a long gone Daddy in the U.S.A.
Born in the U.S.A.
Born in the U.S.A.
Born in the U.S.A.
I'm a cool rocking Daddy in the U.S.A.

No, I didn't say that -- I merely said I noted that there was a reference to Vietnam, I didn't know it was supposed to be sung by a vet. And I can't say anything else about those lyrics besides those two parts I mentioned stood out for me or were even heard as such -- I remember *at the time* noting those two moments clearly. The rest was just the rest.

Also "Dancing in the Dark" is a much better song than "Born in the USA" or "Glory Days"!

"Clearly this is a song about the joyful feeling of living in a prosperous, well-adjusted society! Go America!"

If I said anywhere it was specifically his fault, then I wasn't clear and I apologize for that. What interests me more is the fact that no matter what the intent of an artist, a listener (or reader or whoever or whatever) need not follow in line with that intent or goal in order to enjoy or appreciate it -- or misuse it, however that's defined. Even when a debate over it gets publicized to a huge degree, it might not change things for a listener -- thus the spat that erupted when Reagan's 1984 campaign wanted to use the song and Springsteen complained that the point was missed. I can't say I was swayed at the time either way but now I appreciate how the GOP misreading came about very easily and am actually more surprised at Springsteen's reaction in turn. His goals may not have been ambiguous, it might not have been his fault, but I have to say I'm not surprised at all such a situation arose.

xpost to a large degree with Blount's 'all most people heard' post.

chorus:
"i am a real american
fight for the rights of every man
i am a real american
fight for your rights
FIGHT FOR YOUR LIIIIIIFE!"

oh man these lines (as sung) are devastating. heh i wonder why they didn't play this on at the democratic national convention.

i agree w/ally that "dancing in the dark" is the grtst thing ever.

will write more in a bit. can't do everyone's posts justice at the moment.

xpost

Best version of "Dancing in the Dark" I ever heard was the 12" extended remix. More beats please.

Oh, give it time.

that's the arthur baker remix, right? that does smoke.

Recently I acquired an original program from the Born in the USA tour of the UK. Bruce had no one but himself to blame for the jingoist bandwagon. Every other photo inside is a huge spread of him with a flag. He's pumping his fist while waiving a flag, striking a rocker pose in front of the flag, & then there's an "arty" shot of a huge flag draped across a green prairie like an AIDS quilt. It ain't some Yank spin on the cover of The Kids are Alright; those shots celebrate America, pure and simple. Honestly there is no other way to see them.

anyway i didn't articulate myself very well up above and i'm working on a better way to explain my thoughts.

I think a lot of the dislike for "Born In The U.S.A." (the song) was misplaced backlash against the whole "I'm an American" wave of songs that came out in the mid-80s - Bob Seger, Jackson Browne, etc. all had at least one and while they might have been lyrically satirical it didn't stop suburban meatheads from blaring the stereos in their Camaros while on their way to see All The Right Moves.

As for Born in the USA, as a kid (under 10?) I was turned off by the images of him with a huge flag behind him, and smiling. I saw that stuff more than I heard the song, and it's not like I listened to anything but the choruses when I did hear it. Even though I wasn't political, it annoyed me, and I never got over that prejudice. xpost!

Writing last week in the New York Times, political rocker Bruce Springsteen delivered familiar left-wing phrases. The war in Iraq was "unnecessary," he wrote. The circumstances of the war "are now discredited." We have run "record deficits, while simultaneously cutting and squeezing services like afterschool programs." Tax cuts have gone "to the richest 1 percent."

This is the new stage on which Springsteen is to be judged. Like his bandmates in Vote for Change, he has exited rock-and-roll proper. He is a political rocker now; the songs he plays at his rallies are political tools. Springsteen's words "no retreat, no surrender," once part of a passionate song of rebellion, hope, and fraternity, are now weighted with a specific message: No retreat from the fight against George W. Bush; no surrender until Bush is back in Texas.

Politics and rock make decision-makers of us all. That's America, and what makes it great. Sad that so many of us now have no choice but to vote against Bruce and Eddie and Dave and all the rest. Should they return to good ol' rock we'll be there waiting, and with somewhat open arms. In the meantime we'll listen to the bands we like that still play rock and (for the most part) shut-up about politics. We already know how we're going to vote.

It works on two levels: 1) the flagwaving, hooray-here-comes-the-chorus-so-we-can-sing-along level, and 2) the listen to the lyrics, "live the song" level. (or at least follow the trajectory of the song's narrator, which is what all fans of springsteen do when they listen to one of his story songs. They operate on as much of a cinematic level as a musical one.)

What Bruce intended with the song doesn't really matter, but i DO know that it was originally a one-chord blues dirge, and was reworked to become the uber-anthem/title track with all the synths. In reworking the musical aspect but not the lyrical one, he ended up with a schizoid statement. Too bad for him that it happened to be the first song, title track on the biggest alb of his career.

as for it being long, bitusa's only about four minutes, at least on the studio version. that's fuckin short compared to anything on born to run!

re: the flag stuff, I agree with the position above, it was a somewhat misguided patriotism-but-not-unquestioning thing going on ("Yes I am an American and yes I love Americans and America but that doesn't mean I'm going to sit around meatheading it" etc). And yes, his stylists went over the top with it. Still, I forgive them, it was worth it for the cover.

I think this sorta ties in with my argument that I don't listen for the lyrics much in the first place at all.

if you don't listen to the lyrics, you haven't 'heard' this album

[that was the meanest thing I've ever said here I think, except to Orbit maybe]

and if you agree with the premise, the better the lyrics, the more important it is to listen. it doesn't get better than these.

So, then, why do you give a shit, Ned? Why are the rest of us not having a reasonable conversation about the merits of Bruce Springsteen's lyrics without the constant input of someone who ACTIVELY DOESN'T GIVE A SHIT ABOUT LYRICS?

I mean, dude, I'm all for all opinoins but I really fail to see what you are trying to accomplish here.

Lyrics are written for two reasons:
1) to get a point across
2) to add texture to a song (I'm basically assuming this is, like, Underworld's purpose with lyrics, or MBV/Cocteau Twins type acts)

MOST artists, I'd dare say, use #1. So to wholly discredit the idea of giving any attention to lyrics, I mean it's a personal choice and all and fair enough and no one is saying you have to listen to them, but you are only getting a partial picture of what the artist is trying to achieve. It's like watching a movie and not caring about the cinematographic effects.

And paying attention to the lyrics doesn't like mean you automatically dismiss bands with bad lyrics, I mean I listen to Interpol.

It just seems disingenuous to enter a conversation on an artist who is STRONGLY tied to lyrical/poetical conceptions and the whole genre of the singer/songwriter (new Dylan accusations and all that) just to point out multiple times that you don't care about lyrics and ergo Springsteen is a sucka mc or something.

again, no one demands that you appreciate springsteen, his lyrics or his music. but it's frustrating for me that you have perhaps denigrated him on certain terms, terms which you deny us when we try to argue his importance/interest to you.

xxxxpost

yikes, i guess ally said something of what am saying. i just thought saying it in a more diplomatic way might be of some use.

it may be that i'm wrong about those comments above. certainly most of your comments about springsteen have said, more or less, that you just can't get into the music. so i don't mean this as some kind of devastating riposte or anything. just a way to partially explain what lay behind my outburst above, and to answer these most recent posts.

I salute you for having more memory and less of a temper than I do.

"Springsteen is a sucka mc" is my new phrase though.

If anything it all derives from my even more driven into the ground deep into the bedrock take on radical subjectivism, or more accurately my own take on same -- then again, I think we're all agreed that when Gabbneb says 'better' he's not arguing an objective stance, for instance.

I suppose where I do draw any particular line is the claim that by not getting 'everything' I'm not having a valid experience in some way -- but in truth, where and how is that full impact supposed to be drawn for anything? Which may seem obvious or stupid or both -- but pick any form of media, of artistic production, poem, story, art, play, movie, and so forth. What individual elements go into each for each example? What attracts you in each case for each example? Is it important for you for *everything* to be in place before you can enjoy it and appreciate it? Can you not react and focus on something in particular when it comes appreciation, at the expense of something else?

Where others value lyrical meaning, if anything I value sound -- how a singer sings something more, much more, than what. Music for me reacts on that level, and music with vocals much, much more so. For others, the interplay of vocals with what is being sung is crucial, a balancing point that allows the two to feed off each other. For others yet, a singer's voice may not be interesting or worthwhile but darned if they don't think the words are so spot on that they override other concerns. And so forth.

I don't think any of these three basic outlines are mutually exclusive or invalid. Neither do I think that it results in a partial picture of what the artist is trying to achieve -- indeed, I believe that what the artist is trying to achieve is something that will not always be of paramount importance to a listener. Their own biases, conclusions and approaches will be of equal importance, and I'd say dominant importance. This is little more than a sketch of a strain of reader-response theory, which is hardly universally accepted, I realize.

I didn't even consider the fact that he was kind of ripping the lyrics of BitUSA only to use the "no don't give a crap about lyrics" argument a few posts down. Ned, what up?

Was I ripping them? I'm not trying to be disengenuous -- looking back at those posts, I talk about noticing two particular moments and not noticing anything else. I wasn't trying to say that they were bad, just that they did not stand out -- that there was no impact, good OR bad. As I said, "The rest was just the rest" -- my intent there was strictly neutral.

This may all be explained very badly at best, completely craptacularly at worst. I don't hold anyone at fault here besides myself, but I am trying to argue for a point of view I think is important -- you're explaining the way you listen to Springsteen very well. Maybe in a very poorly confrontational way, I'm explaining the way I listen to him in turn.

You could apply standards of 'lyrical/poetical conceptions and the whole genre of the singer/songwriter' to MBV in turn if you wanted to -- it may seem inaccurate, but if it is paramount for a listener, why is that approach invalid?

nobody made this claim.

you are only getting a partial picture of what the artist is trying to achieve

And that could be my misinterpretation.

ted: smashing pumpkins are so great. it's all about the layering of the guitar parts and how they interact with the vocal lines.

whambamateurist: i dunno, the lyrics remind me of the spin doctors.

ted: but the guitar parts are really interesting. here, let me give you an example: [long example].

[100 posts discussing the ins and outs of smashing pumpkins guitar parts...]

whambamateurist: i don't really pay attention to guitar parts. the lyrics don't really do it for me.

ted: arrrrrgh

"i got debts that no honest man can pay"--that's one of the best lines in the song!

xpost you people must have the Sucka MC version of the song.

-- frankE (frankeeeeeeee...) (webmail), August 12th, 2004 12:56 AM. (frankE) (later) (link)

see dude that's the key that unlocks the door that opens onto the hallway of clarity which leads to the cafeteria of total enlightenment.

Dissect Glory Days, also.

glory days is about greg maddux i think.

carrying on from my conversation w/mr. diamond on the gbv thread abt elder michaux.... and mr. diamond's angry comments about understanding (rock) music as well.

lyrics aren't just about words. hell, speech isn't just about words. speech is cadence, intonation, emphasis. sometimes--most of the time--those cadences, intonations, emphases, etc. carry meaning...
the line between spoken speech and singing isn't a hard and fast one... so it seems absurd to me to divorce the two, to imply that lyrics can be divorced from music and discounted as a part of the whole package. actually i think studying the musical qualities of the spoken word would go a long ways to getting anyone to appreciate the significance of singing in song. so, yeah, if you "don't listen to lyrics" you're gonna miss a lot of springsteen. a lot of nearly everything. i guess that's what frustrates me a lot, ned, since your obstinance-in-tastes seems to resemble willful ignorance a lot of the time. sorry to be so harsh about it. again, there's no reason you need to like springsteen, there's no reason you even need to appreciate the multifarious functions of words in song, but it's a damn shame if you don't.

My favorite line is "put on your stockings 'cause the night's gettin' cold," which collapses all the song's betrayal (his, hers, the world's) and sense of inevitability, not just the words but how he sings them, it's the darkest moment in the song.

that's an interesting take on it, spittle. (i feel weird addressing anyone as "spittle," even over the interweb.)

I agree about the first half of the bridge, it's weak melodically and it has that wack "with you forever I'll stay" construction.

It's interesting because we approach this specific element -- ie, *how* something is sung -- from different viewpoints while prioritizing its importance. In my case, it's less one of how that influences the vocabulary as to how it adds to the music -- there's the quality (however defined) of the voice but also how said voice reacts with/reacts against the backing -- or even how well it sounds on its own, a capella.

i guess that's what frustrates me a lot, ned, since your obstinance-in-tastes seems to resemble willful ignorance a lot of the time. sorry to be so harsh about it. again, there's no reason you need to like springsteen, there's no reason you even need to appreciate the multifarious functions of words in song, but it's a damn shame if you don't.

You may call it what you like and that's fine, but I will still argue that there is no one way to listen to a song -- which we do seem to be agreeing on -- and that there no monopoly in how you get what works (or what doesn't) out of a song as a result. I note you weren't entirely happy with it yourself, but your parody of the Pumpkins thread above is inaccurate because in that exchange if someone said that to me regarding the lyrics, I wouldn't then be trying to argue against that stance in such a fashion. Tons of people have noted to me in turn that they just really don't like Corgan's voice and that's also fine, and so forth. I just don't think it's a 'damn shame,' or any sort of shame, to approach one's likes or dislikes musically in those fashions. It's not willful ignorance in my mind if you focus in on or completely not concentrate on something that I feel in an opposite manner about, it's *how you hear the song* -- and that differs.

I suspect we'll be going in circles if we continue any further, though -- if we're not already!

my take is he's agreed to go down in a prizefight. what dies and may come back is his self-respect.

incidentally the line that per springsteen's website is "sometimes it's like someone took a knife baby edgy and dull and cut a six-inch valley through the middle of my soul" i always heard as "sometimes it's like someone took a knife baby edgy and dull and cut a six-inch valley through the middle of my skull"--i like my mishearing better, because the image is so grotesque and powerful and i've always been distrustful of springsteen when he uses concepts like "soul."

now i really want to hear tara jane o'neil's version.

I think Ally's sarcastic comment about Born in the USA as an "overlooked classic" is actually true. I've been listening to a lot of Springsteen lately (inspired by Kerry) and to me it sounds like BY FAR his best record. But I know plenty of Springsteen fanatics (of which I'm not one) and none of them seem to agree. Nebraska and Darkness and Born to Run (which I think is both overstated and overrated, though I LUV "Thunder Road") seem to be more popular picks.

I'd try to say something pithy in support of Born in the USA, but it's easier just to cut-and-paste one of the most on-point Consumer Guide entries Christgau ever wrote:

Born in the USA [Columbia, 1984]
Imperceptible though the movement has been to many sensitive young people, Springsteen has evolved. In fact, this apparent retrenchment is his most rhythmically propulsive, vocally incisive, lyrically balanced, and commercially undeniable album. Even his compulsive studio habits work for him: the aural vibrancy of the thing reminds me like nothing in years that what teenagers loved about rock and roll wasn't that it was catchy or even vibrant but that it just plain sounded good. And while Nebraska's one-note vision may be more left-correct, my instincts (not to mention my leftism) tell me that this uptempo worldview is truer. Hardly ride-off-into-the-sunset stuff, at the same time it's low on nostalgia and beautiful losers. Not counting the title powerhouse, the best songs slip by at first because their tone is so lifelike: the fast-stepping "Working on the Highway," which turns out to be about a country road gang: "Darlington County," which pins down the futility of a macho spree without undercutting its exuberance; and "Glory Days," which finally acknowledges that among other things, getting old is a good joke. A+

which is why my favorite album of his is the home-recorded nebraska, as i probably said somewhere way upthread. i do like the production on tunnel of love, but the songs on that are hit-and-miss. and i'm in love with the guitar sounds throughout the river. and i hate every synth patch he's ever used.

xpost

that's super cool

http://www.booktrail.com/Video_SelfDefense/Winning%20A%20Street%20Knife%20Fight.jpg

(this was certified true as of about a year ago, and i assume it's still true, but i can't give it my official fact checking certification.)

"Nebraska". Brilliant.

Also, too many people focus on "Born in the USA", hating it for what they think is "rah rah" US patriotism and not realizing it's a protest song.

The screen door slams
Mary's dress waves
Like a vision she dances across the porch as the radio plays
Roy Orbison singing for the lonely . . .

He opened with an instrumental version of "The Star-Spangled Banner" on 12-string guitar, then "Born in the U.S.A." and I have to admit, I teared up.

I am supporting this tour, figuratively.

How long was this show??

Also check out the then and now inderrated "The Wild, The Innocent & The E-Street Shuffle", which contains his best ever song, "4th July, Asbury Park (Sandy)"

To a 17yr old full of testerone this was a shining light in the darkness of new wave shite around at that time .

Let's leave the last word to Thurston Moore: "Dude, have you heard Darkness On The Edge Of Town? It's just as good as Swell Maps!"

note:

(a) i like swell maps
(b) i think darkness is one of bruce's most uneven records

i love the shit out of bruce springsteen

im from new jersey so its natural but seriously the guy like means something to me

i have a picture of him in my room like a russian orthodox icon or something

I spend a lot of time defending the man.

I used to loathe his music, his persona, all that shit -- like he was the personification of everything American that made me retch. But weirdly, I've come around lately, just sifting through the periphery of his catalogue/discography (fuck, is there a better word for that?), although I always had a soft spot for Nebraska, especially after a long solo road trip across the continent during which I found myself on the New Jersey Turnpike among other Springsteen reference points.

I used to loathe his music, his persona, all that shit -- like he was the personification of everything American that made me retch. But weirdly, I've come around lately

Credit Arcade Fire.

i can't see beyond the cock-rock in him. so dud

i just wish he had a clue about production: too slick, too polished, too FM radio, too much synth/piano, too little guitar. neil owns his ass.

too slick, too polished, too FM radio

yawn

you said it: Boss = yawn.

I'll go with classic, but the only songs I ever really want to hear are the early, kinda funky ones (10th Ave Freeze-Out, E Street Shuffle), and of course "Rosalita" and "Blinded by the Light" are completely awesome.

I prefer synth-pop Bruce (especially the ruminative Tunnel of Love, which is an electro Nebraska) to earnest wordy Bruce.

I love his cadence on the line "The night is dark but the sidewalk's bright
And lined with the light of the living"

I'm from NJ, and it's impossible to overstate how huge he is here. I would even venture to say that Springsteen in NJ is more popular than any other singer/band anywhere else in America. Can't speak for Europe, though.

Obviously classic. My favorite album is Born In The USA, and my favorite song is The Promised Land.

Listen to his audition demo, it's on the Tracks box set. It's staggeringly good.

I'm not from NJ, and I say 'classic'. Though the two biggest Springsteen fans I know are European (of the German ilk).

I love the "earnestness" complaints above in the thread, b/c that seems like such a ridiculous "reason" to not like something. Like "I don't like Tim Duncan, he's too serious about his game".

I am from NJ, and I think he sucks, like really fucking bad. Just because you're from Illinois doesn't mean you have to like REO Speedwagon either. Remember, Bon Jovi is big in Jersey too, so it's not like the state has the most discerning musical palate.

fuck you bill magill bon jovi rules

Jovi sucks. But REO rules. I'm not being ironic, either.

Credit Arcade Fire.

Ha! Although the Arcade Fire make me tired. Come to think of it, perhaps credit a less lauded Canadian indie rock band, the Constantines, whose comparisons to the Boss made me revisit and hear something different.

I can't decide between C and D, because he's neither really. Classic for "Thunder Road" and "Atlantic City" and "The Ghost of Tom Joad", and (insert whatever), and Dud for everything you hate. I mean, in certain moods, he can slay you -- a live version of "For You" (Hammersmiith Odeon) came up on shuffle the other day and I completely lost my shit! Other than Nebraska, a copy of which I've had a long time, I don't think I'd ever buy a full album of his, but cherry-picking songs (especially live versions) and compiling your own "Best Of" mix can be Classic, too.

As for the earnest blue-collarness, I have no problem with that, even when it's not earned or it's cartoon-like (hello, Joe Strummer and a million others). It all just gets subsumed in my overall reception of/ reaction to the music, like Dylan's faux wandering troubador thing in the early '60s.

That was my own earnest blue collar approach to ILM posting, btw.

Anybody listen to the new Bruce track? Go to hypem.com and search for "Springsteen Radio Nowhere." I dig the track - one the more rocking Boss songs in a while!

one of

I think I'd rather listen to Rosie O'Donnell defecate than listen to any Springsteen, much less new Springsteen.

This is fucking outstanding. His best rocker in a very very long time.

I can't get into Springsteen. His whole aesthetic is a bit too gay for my liking. All that blue-collar sweatiness just reeks of camp.

It's like that "Brucing" craze that erupted in the Berlin gay clubs back in the day, where everyone used to wear a bandana and denim jacket and pull anguished, sincere, meaningful faces to the latest Springsteen records.

I prefer something a bit more authentic.

I prefer something a bit more authentic

Oh...

Anybody listen to the new Bruce track?

eight six seven five three oh nye-ee-en

it's ok.

i forgot how much i liked this thread.

I bought this a few weeks ago

http://991.com/newGallery/Bruce-Springsteen-Live-1975-1985---283030.jpg

So good.

It's like that "Brucing" craze that erupted in the Berlin gay clubs back in the day, where everyone used to wear a bandana and denim jacket and pull anguished, sincere, meaningful faces to the latest Springsteen records.

Tell me about this in more detail please.

I was completely surprised by "Radio Nowhere," because I'd feared some of the Seeger Sessions vibe might creep over into his new stuff. The difference is totally night and day, though. I'm actually looking forward to the whole record now (and I'm def going to try and see him live again with the E Streeters).

Sooooo... Magic leaked a few days ago. I think it's kind of fucking amazing, much better than The Rising. Anybody else listened to it? "Livin' In The Future" could be a forgotten single from The River, for chrissakes!

OH man, I am so excited.

The Rising had some good songs but it's not exactly something I'm dying to listen to all the time. He hasn't made a great rock record since Born In The USA so this is really great news. I love Radio Nowhere. When he wants to, the guy can make some of the best sounding music of anyone.

He hasn't made a great rock record since Born In The USA

TUNNEL OF LOVE DUDE, TUNNEL OF LOVE

"Radio Nowhere" is pretty in all, with its Tommy Tutone guitar hook, but it says NOTHING AT ALL except that the radio scares Bruce but he's not about to get all Tom Petty about it.

*pretty and all

the new song is funny, the sax break reminds me of the backwards bagpipes on "Under The Milky Way"

seeing the video for "Human Touch" on VH1 Classic was REAL funny

bruce should figure out a really ridiculous haircut for this album, or at least shave it all off.

"Radio Nowhere" is one of the weaker tracks on the new album, IMHO.

a co-worker says a friend of his was once making a documentary about ashbury park and while walking around some abandoned warehouses on (the darkness on) the edge of town he thought he heard some noise and opened a large door to discover Bruce and a band rocking out inside. after a minute, some security guys ran over and told him to get out of there.

LEGENDS OF BRUCE.

Also, it's totally pimp that he's releasing it on vinyl a week earlier than the CD.

Kick a can in Ashbury Park and out comes BROOSE.

Also: "Radio Nowhere" IS "Human Touch."

That's a lie and you know it!

Not the thing about kicking a can. That's true.

you guys know its asbury, right?

woooops

'magic' is great, certainly the best full album of his since....i don't know what.

Magic is a genuine bore, but boring in a different way than D&D and Tom Joad were.

Kick a can in Ashbury Park and out comes BROOSE.
Hence the term "Bruce Juice."

Bruce Juice: Taste The Myths of America

<i>'magic' is great, certainly the best full album of his since....i don't know what.</i>

Since "Tunnel of Love," or perhaps "The River!"

I really love it, I gotta say.

fuck

I can deal with the hits, but mostly I love Nebraska and really like Tom Joad - is Magic worth checking out?

I still have not heard Nebraska despite its various accolades.

I'd say the first half is his best album half, anyway, since Tunnel of Love. The second half is dicey.

I really don't know how anyone can listen to this album without laughing.

GYPSY BIKER! DEVIL'S ARCADE! RADIO NOWHERE!

I have a hard time believing this album was made after 1991.

Mix and match the titles and you get what sounds on paper like an Electric Six album: "Gypsy Arcade," "Radio Biker, "Nowhere Devil."

Tru dat.

Frankie's Diner's
Over on the edge of town
Neon sign spinnin' round
Like a cross over the lost and found

Fluorescent lights
Flicker above Bob's Grill
Shaniqua brings a coffee and asks "fill?"
And says "penny for your thoughts now my poor Bill"

She went away
She cut me like a knife
Had a beautiful thing
Maybe you just saved my life

In just a glance
Down here on Magic Street
Love's a fool's dance
I ain't got much sense but I still got my feet

And the girls in their summer clothes
In the cool of the evening light
The girls in their summer clothes
Pass me by

Are the titles really any worse than the ones on Human Touch, though? (Still haven't heard this 5 star masterpiece, btw.)

yeah, but try telling Jeff Porcaro that the Pearl Jam guy's going to produce you.

The Human Touch ones, aside from "Soul Driver," are more commonplace cliches like "Cross My Heart," "A Man's Job," "Roll Of The Dice," "Real World," etc. The new one's got "Long Walk Home," "Last To Die" and "Your Own Worst Enemy" but its more obviously self-parodying.

or self-paradistic, as I'm not sure he's in on it.

paradistic = parodistic + parasitic

Well yeah, but that's really been Bruce's biggest problem since the dawn of the '90s, I'd say.

has he ever bought a new car?

A downtown window flushed with light
Faces of the dead at five (faces of the dead at five)
A martyr's silent eyes
Petition the drivers as we pass by

you can really hear the parentheses on the track

I kinda dig some of the instrumental breaks on this, Max Weinberg's a pro.

They should have just recorded all the grand backing tracks and let us write our own overwraught americana over it

I'll cite Christgau's remarks on Undercover: "What do people hear in this murky, overblown, incoherent piece of shit?"

OH THE JESUS ON MY DASHBOARD HE AIN'T SLEPT IN FORTY DAYS
AND I'M HOPING FOR A MIRACLE, THAT CRIME ISN'T ALL THAT PAYS

see Bruce should write about that rather than how it's gonna be a long walk home

ohhh the devil's arcade is war

i hope the video stars Barry Pepper

Mr. Hoos keeps talkin' bout Nebraska. I'm afraid to dispute it, I don't know it anyway. But Hoos is usually on to something good.

But he admits he hasn't heard it yet, Bimble.

"Terry's Song"

Well they built the Titanic to be one of a kind, but many ships have ruled the seas
They built the Eiffel Tower to stand alone, but they could build another if they please
Taj Mahal, the pyramids of Egypt, are unique I suppose
But when they built you, brother, they broke the mold

Now the world is filled with many wonders under the passing sun
And sometimes something comes along and you know it's for sure the only one
The Mona Lisa, the David, the Sistine Chapel, Jesus, Mary, and Joe
And when they built you, brother, they broke the mold

When they built you, brother, they turned dust into gold
When they built you, brother, they broke the mold

They say you can't take it with you, but I think that they're wrong
'Cause all I know is I woke up this morning, and something big was gone
Gone into that dark ether where you're still young and hard and cold
Just like when they built you, brother, they broke the mold

[harmonica bridge]

Now your death is upon us and we'll return your ashes to the earth
And I know you'll take comfort in knowing you've been roundly blessed and cursed
But love is a power greater than death, just like the songs and stories told
And when she built you, brother, she broke the mold

That attitude's a power stronger than death, alive and burning her stone cold
When they built you, brother

[harmonica bridge]

It actually might be genius to wrap an acoustic "nobody like you" coda around the phrase "broke the mold." That this guy was SO UNIQUE that he had to whip out the most trite phrase imaginable to capture it. That he TRULY DESERVED it.

Turns out its about the death of his "long-time assistant."

Hoos hasn't heard Nebraska yet?! Dude, that's impossible.

My longwinded thoughts about his new album (which I don't like much) are toward the bottom of this thread, if anybody is at all interested:

Rolling country 2007 thread

I still have not heard Nebraska despite its various accolades.

-- BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Friday, October 5, 2007 6:00 AM (2 days ago) Bookmark Link

But good lord dude, he claimed to be listening to it on the drunk thread!

The lyrics quoted here are some of the worst abuses of English I've ever read, in any context, by anybody. Seriously. Is that what he really sings on this record? That's horrifying.

Terry's Song": Jeez, that really reads like its fucking over-wrought; I'm kinda simultaneously dreading it and facinated by it! In other words: "same as it ever was."

oops, missing a " at the beginning there.

These titles and lyrics: did Springsteen get into a broken transporter with Robbie Robertson?

Anyone hear some "Don't Fear The Reaper" in "Radio Nowhere"?

some really great discussion btween ally, amateurist and 'spittle' upthread

Neither classic nor dud, but certainly overrated. But give him credit for a consistent vision of what he's trying to do.

Never could stand either of his Borns, neither to Run nor in the USA, but have to say I'm an admirer from afar of Nebraska.

And I have no idea whether or not this feeling will be echoed by ANYONE else, but as an American I will always remember him as the artist who led off the concert for 9/11 relief. Hate most of his music or not, for him to have been there in that space at that time makes him emblematic for me in a way that his somewhat overwrought albums never could.

what on earth are you trying to say?

Hmm, thought I was pretty straightforward, but maybe the following will make sense: I dislike his music, not least because it pretends to some working classman's purity, because it is arrogant enough to suggest that if you grew up in some shithole town in New Jersey, you are somehow rendered heroic, or at least you are if transformed into one of the Boss' songs.

But I liked that he chose to appear on that telethon, and am OK with the idea the producers had that he should go first.

Did I do better that time.

Not sure if there's a thread for the new album (Working on a Dream), but I heard it today. Really liked it. His voice sounds just scratched - not as gruff as Dylan or Young or Waits, but obviously starting to go, and it's starting to acquire some flavor (something that I always thought Springsteen was missing).

Anyone else heard this yet?

ctrl+f "jungleland" - 1 result

come on guys

"Born to Run" by Bruce Springsteen -- who really enjoys this overproduced crappy glop?

Is the new disc as overproduced and antiseptic-sounding as the last few with his band?

Nah. More raw, more bluesy on some tracks. ("Good Eye" in particular is pretty rocking)

I've only heard the title track, I like it alright.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=99173117

The new album is streaming at NPR. Some of it is instrumentally clunky but Bruce is trying to be a little more pop on some of it than in the recent past, while others have a raw, rocking roots feel (a little sound like recent Dylan but more rocking). Plus there's some spaghetti western influence on one cut and various other new things from him.

Huge poster for the record in Easy Street here. The four albums listed additionally include Born to Run and . . . Nebraska.

Super interview with him on BBC radio last night. The new material sounded smashing also.

He's putting the big push on over here, playing the Super Bowl holiday next week.

Sounds better than the last one, but the best songs aren't as good as the best on the last one. The album falls somewhere between "Human Touch" (bad) and "Lucky Town" (good). In other words, average. In other other words: five stars!!!!!!

I think Federici dying was yet another reminder that he can't do this forever, so he's cranking them out and doing everything on his wish list that he'd never done before (Super Bowl, campaigning, etc.). Speaking of which, losing the Oscar nom means he misses the rare promotional four-fecta of Obama, Golden Globes, Oscars and Super Bowl.

Oh, also, the new album is about 95% sax-free, FWIW.

I wish the alleged Beach Boys and Byrds influences I read about in one review were more prominent.

Oh, also, the new album is about 95% sax-free, FWIW.

― Josh in Chicago

FAIL. The big man Clarence Clemens is the most awesome human ever.

I'd sure love to hear a Byrdsy Boss.

I think Magic is super!

I know that in 1992 people said Lucky Town might be better than Human Touch, but on the whole I'm not even sure it is; they really do feel somewhat of a muchness ... don't they? I like both but still you can feel he's historically under par.

The unwritten rule says that the quality of a Springsteen album is directy proportional to the number of sax solos in it. So, mathematically, this album royally sucks Greg Kot OTM

^omtfm

(about the sax solos, that is)

I'm listening to the new LP on spotify; goodness, it's terrific!

Oh man, one of my favorite performances anywhere has made it to YouTube. These versions of "Seeds" and "Born in the U.S.A." are the definitive ones for me, never been better. I think this is one of the first times he played these songs acoustic and live.

Are those performances available officially on DVD anywhere?

For any skeptics out there, please let this video answer the question for you.

I've seen it a hundred times and it still gives me chills.

Prove It All Night - Passaic, NJ 1978
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3vUKBOJ5sU

I came in here to post this picture but after reading all the hate, I had to post what converted me. Anyway, here he is with some other guys:

http://www.brucespringsteen.net/photos/miscphotos/gallery-whitehousedec16.jpg

ok so

i'm watching bruce's "storytellers" right now and like

he's breaking his own songs down like an english professor it's weird and cool

he like sings a line and then does exegesis

"la la laaa la la la la la laaaa....once again, there is an unspoken subtext about the power of rock n roll here. what do the la la las say? they say 'sing with me,' they also say 'stand by me and we will stand together in this'"

^^^^^ actual quote

"did i think of all this before i wrote it? no, of course not, but i felt it as i wrote it. after years of storytelling you internalize the mechanics of your craft and the song itself becomes a second language, and communicating through it becomes second nature"