When I think about Originality (cf. ILE), I often think about things that combine existing cultural features in ways that no-one had thought of - and succeed in pulling off some kind of unlikely synthesis. The Smiths seem to me a major case of this:
a) folk-pop jangly guitar tradition
+
b) Northern English camp tradition
= major incident in pop history.
The thing that is hard to understand is why or how those two things (Roger McGuinn and Alan Bennett, so to speak) came together. Just by sheer chance and contingency? What strange alchemy was going on? How much of the improbable synthesis was carefully planned? etc.
― the pinefox, Monday, 24 September 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink
The duality you point out is an apt one, but I'd even add a few things to that. First is the fact that while Marr is overshadowed by Moz as the source of oddity, it's worth noting that Marr was pretty interesting as well. He tends to get defined as some sort of godfather of indie jangle, but listening back through those records, you realize how all-over-the-place he tended to be, from those funky little instrumentals he'd play live (funky in the sense that, say, "Rubber Ring" is funky) to the occasional rockabilly turn ("Vicar in a Tutu") -- leave alone the wide swath of pop/rock he cut through.
And then you pair that with Morrissey, whose inclinations were even more unusual and in a completely different fashion. This is what fascinates me about Morrissey -- the fact that he seems to be essentially a social deviant, the sort of person who would be sitting creepily in a flophouse or hanging around libraries scaring people had he not been given a near-magical opportunity to be odd for a living. The fact that his pre-Smiths life was allegedly so creepily sheltered explains quite a bit -- the camp mentioned above seems a direct result of the only two musical influences he claims from his youth, those being (a) sixties British pop of the Lulu / Twinkle / Sandy Shaw variety, and (b) glam, e.g. his New York Dolls obsession. (That background also explains his least appealing traits: (a) his gynophobia, common to pretty much all sheltered, awkward, creepy boys, and (b) his homoerotic attraction to hypermasculinity in the form of hooliganism. This all makes so much sense if we believe the stereotypical accounts of his youth that have him basically sitting home reading Wilde and being terribly, debilitatingly awkward and sickly and etc.)
Add to that the funkiness of Andy Rourke and the perpetually shuffly drumming of Mike Joyce. It's hard to tell, though, how much of this was Marr's doing, as both of those traits seem to be intended to work with his funky/shuffly guitar leanings.
But maybe someone who is older than me and was living in the U.K. in the early 80s can offer a better take on exactly how odd they sounded at the time. Surely "Hand in Glove" was a big surprise when it first hit the radio?
― Nitsuh, Monday, 24 September 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink
― Billy Dods, Monday, 24 September 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink
― Dr. C, Monday, 24 September 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink
― Arthur, Monday, 24 September 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink
Dr C: great answer - but Why, Dr C? Why?
Billy Dods: I have never ever heard rockist *except* as an insult. (Funnily enough, I think I first encountered the word in Reynolds, re. Marr, Sept 1989.)
NItsuh - thanks for the answers. Weirdness: yes. Humour: of course - it's not a hint or a subtext, it's a big aspect of the schtick. I agree with you, of course, re. Marr's diversity - this was one of the reasons he stands out so much; he seems to have *seen further* than most musicians - and also, had the technical capacity to put what he had in his head onto vinyl. But the jangle (Byrds, if you like) think is still central - was still the default setting - so I think it remains central to my (bemused) question.
I like your details on Morrissey's identity too - BUT are you sure about the 'gynophobia' thing? (I take it this means something like misogyny - is that right?) I mean, he was also interested in feminist texts, as far as I can remember. A conflicted character in this regard, maybe?
As for "having a car with *'only'* a tape deck"... jeez. That's what I call living in the World's Only Remaining Superpower.
― mark s, Monday, 24 September 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink
― Tim, Monday, 24 September 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink
― Andrew L, Monday, 24 September 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink
― Jack Redelfs, Monday, 24 September 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink
On a related note there was an obscure Liverpool independent band called Pink Industry would released a fine single about Morrisse, What I Wouldn’t Give.
The band would steer even closer to the mainstream with their next single, a 7" of "What I Wouldn’t Give" b/w "Bound By Silence" (1985), taken from their forthcoming album. A fantastic single, it became an immediate collector’s item because of the cover that was adorned with Morrissey’s photograph, illustrating a lyric in the song: "That’s my Smiths tapes you never wanted to hear, throw them away, Morrissey in the bin?, if it would bring you back again."
I am not to sure of the precise meaning of this track, maybe celebrating the individuality of Morrissey - but this is one of the finest atmospheric pop tracks i have ever heard. In way it reminds me of Shriekback on this big hush or faded flowers - intricate softly spoken higly atmospheric haunting music.
Pink Industry was a brilliant electronic-industrial-atmospheric act out of Liverpool. Fronted by the charismatic Jayne Casey, they put out three albums and a brace of singles between 1982 and 1985, with a few compilations following in their wake. Jayne had previously fronted two acts–seminal Liverpool punk band Big in Japan, and art- house throwaway act Pink Military
The strangeness of The Smiths in away was put into context on this single, how many artists have songs directly sung about them by other artists in a deeply passionate sense - after a relatively short period of time. This single came out in 1985 and got played a few times on John Peel and RTE Dave Fanning shows back in the summer of 1985.
Apparently Jayne Casey knew Morrissey
the only pink industry i know of were from liverpool, england. the only mention i ever heard of them was in the smiths book _the complete story_ by mick middles. described as "wild and intelligently wacky", led by jayne casey, "fashion queen, mother superior, and friend of morrissey".
― DJ Martian, Monday, 24 September 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink
― dave q, Tuesday, 25 September 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink
(Also having heard his 'stand-up' you have to assume he was jealous of Morrissey for being funny sometimes)
― Tom, Tuesday, 25 September 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink
Morrissey was a HYOOGE feminist of the Brownmiller/Dworkin school, which is very attractive to 16-year-old fag hags in training ('Mom, I'm okay downtown because the gay guys in the record store keep an eye on me.' 'Whaaaaaaaat?!?'). Linder Sterling/Mulvey from Ludus was his best punk friend (she also designed Magazine and Buzzcocks sleeves) and the person who inspired Cemetry Gates. Mark S is right - she did wear the meat dress at a gig and was part of a coterie of tough feministas inc. the Naylor sisters and Cath Carroll. She does these weird sub-Richard Hamilton collages for art - Nick Momus and I went to see these a few years back 'cos his friend Andrew Renton was showing them in his gallery (now defunct). We were both a bit disappointed, Nick more 'cos Howard Devoto failed to turn up. Linder is now partnered up with the novelist/pop critic Michael Bracewell (who I like very much). YEARS ago when I was in Manchester visiting friends we walked into the big posh Waterstone's and she was managing it, so jaw/floor moment for me!
Jayne Casey last I heard was the director of the Bluecoat Centre in Liverpool - she's artworld big there.
Although I *hated* Johnny Marr for the latter half of 1987 he (and the Bunnymen) were *so good* at gutar it turned my head from the dark synth stuff I liked before I discovered the Smiths. It wasn't until I actually visited England and met the beermonster casual element of their later fan base that I managed to calm down about love for said group (and it did annoy me that Morrissey, who supported socialist causes, would wind up shafting the rhythm section). When I moved here I quickly met all kinds of music industry people who had been friends with him at one stage or another, but there were surprisingly few 'stories' if you know what I mean.
As to the skins and cholo boys Morrissey seems to be obsessed with now, it's definitely a case of Fancying What Is Most Terrifying/Physically Threatening to self.
― suzy, Tuesday, 25 September 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink
― DG, Tuesday, 25 September 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink
Can someone explain all this stuff to me about Morrissey in the present. I know very little about him or the Smiths but I always hear about some vague racial thing but never get a clear cut idea about what people are talking about.
― hans, Tuesday, 25 September 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink
Morrissey has always had a fetish for tough boys because they are so different from him. Also, fear stimulates the adrenals in the same way as arousal, so perhaps he's mixed up the thought of getting his arse kicked with the thought of getting his arse...well, you know. This became a lot more pronounced after he left the Smiths. I've never believed he has a problem with racial issues, just that in certain areas a guy like him who is literate but not terribly disciplined or qualified in his education might try to comment on certain Matters Of The Day and cause misunderstanding. A lot of his writing is about Difference, but when it's not about being a little bit strange/outcast/ queer I think it's clumsy.
Fetishising tough boys as the Other is a BIG part of the aesthetic of gay men who grew up in the 70s and 80s; if you look carefully at the personnel of fashion shoots etc. in Brit magazines you'll soon see that most of the skinhead/hooligan shoots are put there by gay guys of un certain age. In America, the peachfuzz mullet pickup boy serves the same function to designers like Jeremy Scott and writers like Dennis Cooper.
Morrissey now lives in Silverlake in LA, big home of fanciable cholo boys. Most of the gay guys I know who've lived there think they're cute because of the unattainable aspect. Note to LA cholo boys with a sensitive side: if you fancy a sugar daddy, you'd have thousands to choose from.
On to The Smiths. I'd say the single biggest 'miracle' about the Smiths is that somehow Johnny Marr firstly 'clicked' with an oddball like Morrissey, and secondly, that he was able to find a way to accomodate and harness Moz's eccentricities within a viable working band. This is based on evidence from Johnny Rogan's book (Morrissey and Marr : The Severed Alliance) and a few conversations with Smiths/Morrissey insiders. Marr's genius as a guitarist and arranger is evident, but I think it's even more incredible that he managed to work with Morrissey for 5 prolific years before the inevitable falling out.
Part of this is in the basic practicalities of song-writing. By all accounts Morrissey's words would often appear in different places in the arrangement to where Marr had expected (verses became middle 8's, or Moz would sing across a transition...etc). This may account for the way that many Smiths songs don't have a normal structure or easily identifiable chorus, especially the earlier material. This lack of concern for (or lack of knowledge of..) conventional forms (on the part of Morrissey) helped a great deal to set them apart from the rest. It probably loosened-up Marr from some of the more trad. influences which he might have been tempted to copy. So, I'd say that in terms of FORM, little was planned, at least initially.
Of course we wouldn't be bothering to think/write about this if it were not for the startling subject matter and language of Morrissey's lyrics. In some ways it's quite amazing how you can make such an impact by speaking so directly. Then again think how contemporaries like Ian McCullough were still largely using rock-trad language inherited from The Doors, Lou Reed etc.
Possibly Morrissey's most staggering achievement is to draw on so many largely untapped sources of language to weave togther his words. Camp humour, pathos, Northern dourness, everyday sayings ("The devil will make work for idle hands to do"), heroic superiority (" We may be hidden by rags, but we've something they'll never have"). Sure, you can find examples of each of these around the place before the Smiths, but no-one had ever integrated them into a coherent WORLD before.
Someone asked what initial impact the Smiths had. I remember listening to a 7-inch of "Hand in Glove" when it was released and liking, but not loving it, immediately. I remember spending a lot of time with it trying to figure out exactly WHAT was so different about it, as did a lot of my friends. It definately made an impression, but didn't knock us flat. I guess it was just a tantalising glimpse of Morrissey's world. I saw them live at the Lyceum with Howard Devoto (3rd London show?) and it was clear that something big was coming, even though the set still relied too heavily on B-grade stuff like Miserable Lie and Hand That Rocks The Cradle. When "This Charming Man" was released my friends and I hated it! Friend NG's comment "They've turned into The Farmer's Boys" summed up our initial response to the chirpy hi-life guitar, the jaunty swing of the beat, and the camp lyrics. I still think of this comment every time I hear TCM. I'm not sure whether the album came next, or the "What Difference Does It Make" single, but from that point you couldn't ignore them.
I can't dispute that The Smiths were, as Pinefox puts it, a major incident in pop history. Somehow, I rarely play them these days, and I struggle to enjoy them as much as I once did - I get the impression that history has not been totally kind. I'll dig out a couple of albums tonight and try to make sense of these thoughts.
― Dr. C, Tuesday, 25 September 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink
This wasn't the first time that the music papers branded Moz a racist. During The Smiths heyday, NME soul boy Paolo Hewitt ( IIRC) claimed that the song 'Panic' was racist, because the line "burn down the disco, hang the blessed DJ" was implicitly an attack on black musical forms like disco and funk, and talk of hanging recalled the language of the lynch mob. Moz also famously said that "All reggae is vile".
More generally, Moz has always lamented the death of England - or his vision of England, shaped by kitchen sink dramas, camp comedies, mods and rockers violence, images of rundown seaside towns etc. An England corrupted by outside influences, chiefly American consumer culture (ironic considering that Moz now lives in the USA). In this way, Moz can be seen as part of an English socialist tradition that streches back at least to Orwell - the working classes have been seduced by the empty, gaudy trash of an imported culture that has cut them off from their 'authentic' roots and 'heritage'. Yet at the same time, Morrissey worshipped The New York Dolls...
Basically, the contradictions are endless... 'For what it's worth', I don't think Morrissey is or was a racist, but his obsession w/ the nature of Englishness, his indifference to dance music, and his previously mentioned homoerotic fascination/loathing for the bully bad boy, did drag him into some pretty murky waters. But Ironically, at the height of Moz's flirting with fascism period, he was booed off-stage by racist skinhead Madness fans who hated seeing their beloved Union Jack soiled by Moz's poovery...
― Andrew L, Tuesday, 25 September 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink
I always had the idea that Britain in the 50s and 60s had this nice can-do attitude when all the trad class distinctions were starting to erode (well, if you were a clever working-class angry young man). If you got involved in the music biz in the 80s you'd have been seriously disabused of the notion that Britain was on its way to better, more egalitarian times.
― Sean, Tuesday, 25 September 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink
It disappears by the next record, though ...
― Nitsuh, Tuesday, 25 September 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink
1. I like the qualified points that Nitsuh and Suzy have just made - that sounds about right to me.
2. Like I said, this is not meant to be a thread re. the Smiths = grate or rubbish - so with respect and all that, I don't see Jack R's, or Dave Q's comments, as very relevant really. (There's a C/D for that.)
3. I like Cockfarmer's post. Also DG is on the money here.
4. Martian: yes, I saw the programme - which has never been very highly rated - years ago. You seem to be saying that I don't have a clue about the BASICS about the Smiths. What I'm trying to say, rather, is that once you have all those basics, it's still hard to make it all add up.
5. Suzy is right re. otherness, boot boys, etc - in detail.
6. Dr C: fantastic post: I agree with almost everything you say (until towards the end), and I (think I) know what you mean about initial reactions and the way you go back to them later (ie: still thinking about 'TCM' in terms of initial rejection). (Maybe initial reactions have something going for them.) I totally agree with you re. Marr holding things together (ie, how did he cope? etc), and the ('accidental'?) oddity of the structures (*this* is the kind of thing that no-one ever seems to get to discussing, for one reason or another - though it's BASIC to what the band had to offer).
― the pinefox, Tuesday, 25 September 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink
I don't really have anything else to say, except that I'm playing "The Headmaster Ritual" at the moment and it still sounds pretty special to me, though obviously intensely related to a social set-up now long vanished.
God, "Panic" sounds stranger with every year that passes: I don't know whether the Pinefox will agree with me, but I find it their strangest, weirdest, most pathological single, their most passionate yet their most doomed. But I don't think it would have sounded like that in 1986: it's just that the more Britain changes year by year, the more cosmopolitan and hedonistic it becomes, the more it seems like an anthem raging hopelessly against the tide. Time has made "Panic" sound vainglorious: the question is - from someone far too young to understand these things 15 years ago - did it *always* seem like that?
― Robin Carmody, Tuesday, 25 September 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink
― mark s, Tuesday, 25 September 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink
A few years later, of course, the clubs were in thrall to dance music which did say something to people about their lives.
― Billy Dods, Tuesday, 25 September 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink
"Hang the DJ" referring to Smashie and Nicey gang - yes, absolutely, but that doesn't detract from the essential nostalgia of "Panic" as a song: a call to arms, absolutely, but also a rather pathetic, blunted one, the children's choir sounding like a vainglorious echo of post- war formality, and I can't help but hear a desperate fear for the future behind the line "Could life ever be sane again?". The strange thing is, though, I think the song is *brilliant*, but what it is based on (broadly, to my ears, desire for a unified working class not indulging in hedonism and love for American pop culture) could never be recaptured, and that is where the brilliance comes from: the desperation to achieve something that could never actually happen, never more perfectly expressed in pop. It isn't that nobody would write about provincial towns now but that provincial towns *just aren't like that anymore*: even compared to 15 years ago, they are as given over to hedonism as anywhere else and totally unresponsive to any remaining echoes of puritan socialism (or puritanism or socialism in any form, really). This is, I think, why Morrissey lives in LA: he would rather not live in Britain than in a Britain unrecognisable from his idea of Britain.
Essential ambivalence is what I love best about the Morrissey of that time, and his worst moments ever have been his most obvious: I personally think of "A Rush And A Push And The Land Is Ours" (specifically "It has been before / So it shall be again") as referring to the Wilson government / social democratic leadership compared to the Thatcher era, but I can quite see why certain people after the Union Jack / "NF Disco" episode interpreted the song to mean something rather less positive (I don't think that interpretation is *right*, of course ... the ambivalents of pop have to be prepared for occasional stupid misinterpretations: it goes with the territory).
Robin C:
>>> mid-80s Smiths fandom as I see it was the *last breath of Hoggartism*
In large part, yes, this is right. Maybe the M thing about 'illness' (hearing aids etc) stuck out, though? Also re. gender - cos M was 'sexually ambiguous' - and Hoggart's book doesn't have much place for that. (This is the puritan vs bohemian split in M, if you like.)
>>> I don't know whether the Pinefox will agree with me, but I find it their strangest, weirdest, most pathological single, their most passionate yet their most doomed.
Yes - kind of. But like you, I don't think that detracts from its enjoyable fascination. A strange thing, rarely mentioned, is that it's VERY SHORT!
Suzy:
>>> A few years later, of course, the clubs were in thrall to dance music which did say something to people about their lives.
Well - different perspectives here, surely. From the POV of dance fans (or whatever) in 1986, dance music presumably *did* say what they needed; just like (I imagine) it does for dance fans now. It doesn't for me, of course - but you knew that.
Dods: I like the points re. rockism (personally I *love* guitar solos, of course).
>>> The echo of the provincial towns sounds rather quaint now, I can't imagine anyone else singing the praise of Carlisle when you've got the delights of London or NYC to write about.
Well. Just you wait. One day.
>>> It isn't that nobody would write about provincial towns now but that provincial towns *just aren't like that anymore*: even compared to 15 years ago, they are as given over to hedonism as anywhere else and totally unresponsive to any remaining echoes of puritan socialism
Hold on - there seems to be an assumption developing re. M's attitude to provincial towns (which as said in past I find fascinating - the towns, I mean, not the attitude). I don't see it that way. I think he is just *listing* for PANORAMIC EFFECT: it's ALL ENGLAND APOCALYPSE.
>>> The other thing is the provincial towns Morrissey loves may have existed at some point, but they had already disappeared, or were disappearing, by the time Panic was written.
But those towns are still there! Yes, they've changed - but for the better *as well as* the worse, I'd guess (like most things: dialectics as usual).
Back to 'strangeness': this is still the key thing for me. Robin C pinpoints an aspect of it re. the children's choir - an element of sinister otherworldliness, or whatever. Plus, the comic (and retro) eccentricity of Marr's *music* (cf Nitsuh earlier) as well as the unseemly violence of the lyric (M as embarrassing ranting party guest - back to Nitsuh earlier, again)...
It would be interesting to know if 'Panic' could ever have gone another way - if there were more elaborate lyrical drafts that spelled things out more fully (a la 'Queen Is Dead'). But I'm clutching at gladioli, I know (I know, I know...).
Billy: the other Mancunian axis that comes to mind as more representative of genuine latter-day (i.e. post-Thatcher, or rather *irrevocably-changed-by-Thatcher*) Northern working-classness is the Roses / Mondays (the Mondays especially) wing which was in the ascendancy as Morrissey's solo career declined (held back, as I saw it, by long gap between first two proper solo albums causing loss of momentum: instructive that none of his four 1991 singles, from the Our Frank era, made even the Top 20 whereas the first four solo singles all went Top 10). For some reason (and I was actually thinking about this before I knew this thread existed!), I associate "Madchester Rave On" outselling "Ouija Board Ouija Board" five to one in Manchester HMV with the fall of Communism and the emergence of MTV Europe: not only concurrent, but a similar, definitive (or so it seemed) victory of hedonism over any remaining hints of, perhaps foolhardy, ideological conviction.
Provincial towns already changing rapidly by 1986 - well, exactly, kind of strengthens my argument that the central theme of "Panic" is nostalgia and longing. This is, also, its central fascination.
Pinefox: shortness of "Panic" something that occured to me earlier. I personally relate it to the classicism / nostalgia of the song: write a song that evokes provincial towns as they perhaps were around 1963 and make it the length of pop songs of the time (during the British New Wave cycle of films from 1958-63, it wasn't unknown for songs of less than two minutes in length to make Number One: Adam Faith's "What Do You Want?" springs to mind).
The towns are still there, of course, and what is fascinating is just how much they have changed, as anyone who makes a habit of visiting places that feature in old films, TV series, photographs etc. will know. One of the great fascinations of modern Britain is comparing the general informality and hedonism of these places *now* (main exception that comes to mind: Winchester, especially in winter) with images of how they once were. Peter Hitchens was, perhaps for the only time in his life, spot on when he said that traditions can be destroyed just as effectively when you leave the buildings there but chip away at the ideas and feelings that gave them meaning, as when you tear down the buildings themselves. This is the key to how Manchester - and, I suppose, provincial Britain generally - has evolved in contradiction to and refusal of Morrissey's vision of it.
Strangeness: exactly. Listening to "A Rush And A Push ..." and "Death of a Disco Dancer", what comes out is how great they are *as sound*. I'd previously concentrated on Morrissey's words, but what stands out now is how great a *band* they were. For the first time, "Disco Dancer" sounds to me quite as apocalyptic as the title track of "The Queen Is Dead", an epic melodic grind for long after Moz himself is unheard.
There is much more within this thread, I think.
― Ned Raggett, Tuesday, 25 September 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink
(Suzy and Nellie are sitting in the hall in front of their opened lockers which are littered with artfully arranged pin-ups from British and Japanese music mags. They are clearly deep in conversation)
PASSING METALHEAD BOY does a double-take when he sees locker gallery full of Men Wearing Makeup. PMB: "What is that faggot shit?"
SUZY and NELLIE exchange glances. Each girl removes an empty shopping bag from their locker. NELLIE: "'scuse me?"
PMB: "I asked you what that faggot shit was."
NELLIE (offers bag to PMB): "Here, take this."
SUZY (offers second bag to PMB): "Here, take this."
PMB now has TWO BAGS. PMB is puzzled.
SUZY: "Now. Put both bags over your head, DUDE. Keep America beautiful, okay?"
...see, they didn't stand a chance so no real hassle. Mallrat girls who had 'hair' comments were encouraged to look five years into the future, where if they had not managed to reproduce with a football player, they might actually HAVE the haircut I was sporting that day. In the same future I would of course be having my hair cut where I would never have to look at their bad style ever ever again. Besides, there weren't enough of US to form an actual Breakfast Club-type subcult so we were very confusing for THEM.
― suzy, Wednesday, 26 September 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink
Not sure I agree. Sitting out Madchester was probably a wise move, but the single biggest cause of the decline HAS to be the fact that Kill Uncle was so spectacularly awful. Virtually EVERYTHING which was good about the Smiths had gone by now. (By the way, except for the singles, I really don't like Viva Hate either).
Somehow that knife-edge balance between camp, misery, humour, nostalgia and arrogance, which he kept throughout the Smiths career is out of whack much of the time. Too much or too little of any of these carefully-juggled elements resulted in nonsense like King Leer, Bengali in Platforms, Little Man What Now, Late Night Maudlin Street,Alsatian Cousin etc. Maybe the lay-off before Kill Uncle gave him too much time to think about how and what, rather than doing what came naturally in The Smiths. Working with hacks like Street, Langer and Nevin couldn't have helped much either.
Arthur makes a good point about a possible precendent in Orange Juice, and for the Postcard singles, it makes good sense. Simply Thrilled Honey and Blue Boy in particular have that odd structure and slightly distanced feel which marked out Hand In Glove. I sense that Collins was a much less complex character than Morrissey, and consequently less interesting. The post-Postcard era showed that he had nothing much to say.
― Dr. C, Wednesday, 26 September 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink
I agree, pf. It's funny - I was thinking of posting a thread about Panic a while ago and thought better of it. What I was going to ask was 'what does this song MEAN?' Or more specifically, what do the chorus and verses have to do with one another? But then I decided it would make me look stupid. Of course I understand the connection, but it struck me as a perfect example of Morrissey's (Smiths era) approach to songwriting- so many self-contained lines/notebook fragments/twisted aphorisms that somehow end up constituting a lyric. If someone asked me what situation Morrissey was describing, or point he was making in a lot of Smiths songs I'd have no straightforward answer. He changed style a bit on Meat is Murder ('The Headmaster Ritual' is perhaps his best sustained direct, transparent song) but he never really lost his predilection (knack?) for opaque, ambiguous, cut and paste lyrics (torrents of words falling over themselves) until a little way into his solo career.
A thing that rarely gets mentioned: Mick Middles' book (yes, I know it's terrible) insists that when Morrissey & Marr started out, their plan was to become a songwriting team, not a band. Does anyone know if that's true?
― Nick, Wednesday, 26 September 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink
That begs the question what was different about the Smiths. I would tend to argue that, musically, they were *less* strange than early Orange Juice: a fuller sound, less angular and difficult, less scratchy. Which is to say, I suppose, that they were more palatable to a pop/rock mainstream. I recall very well hearing "What Difference Does It Make" and "Heaven Knows I'm Miserable Now" on Radio 1 on the bus to school. I can't imagine any of those first few OJ singles making it onto the breakfast show.
There's also clearly a big chunk of J. Rotten in the Morrissey persona: that ill, contrary outsider bit, handing down his crushing barbs with total disdain. I suppose you could argue that, musically, the Smiths were the first band in a musical generation to consider themselves nothing to do with punk (and punk as just a detail of history). They made themselves palatable to punk-obsessed likes of me by the Rotten-ness of SPM. Just a thought.
― Tim, Wednesday, 26 September 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink
― mark s, Wednesday, 26 September 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink
btw, I saw the Smiths on their first US tour in NY... which one of you geeks is jealous? :)
― Sean, Wednesday, 26 September 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink
If not, no need for jealousy here.
― Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 26 September 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink
― Billy Dods, Wednesday, 26 September 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink
>>> For some reason (and I was actually thinking about this before I knew this thread existed!), I associate "Madchester Rave On" outselling "Ouija Board Ouija Board" five to one in Manchester HMV with the fall of Communism and the emergence of MTV Europe
Put that way, it sounds odd - but I think your overall generational point is valid.
>>> shortness of "Panic" / classicism [60s]
This is a fine point, which goes for other Smiths records too, of course.
>>> Peter Hitchens was, perhaps for the only time in his life, spot on when he said that traditions can be destroyed just as effectively when you leave the buildings there but chip away at the ideas and feelings that gave them meaning, as when you tear down the buildings themselves.
Hm... but was he 'wrong' at the same time as being 'right'? I hope so.
Dr C:
>>> but the single biggest cause of the decline HAS to be the fact that Kill Uncle was so spectacularly awful.
I agree - but Stevie T will tell you, I think, that it was 'Ouija Board' which summarized decline !
>>> (By the way, except for the singles, I really don't like Viva Hate either).
I do. I agree that a balance has been lost, but that record is close enough to the Smiths - close enough to the flow - to retain much of what what M had then, I think. (I still think it the best solo record.)
>>> Working with hacks like Street, Langer and Nevin couldn't have helped much either.
This is true. Actually there is a whole separate discussion to be had re. the influence of Langer & Winstanley on the records of Morrissey, Costello and... Lloyd Cole!!
D Nick: you are very, very on the money - loads of money!
>>> What I was going to ask was 'what does this song MEAN?' Or more specifically, what do the chorus and verses have to do with one another?
This was what preoccupied me after I'd left the thread yesterday. And I realized that I had let myself forget my original sense of the song. What happens in the song - let D Nick take up the point again -
>>> it struck me as a perfect example of Morrissey's (Smiths era) approach to songwriting- so many self-contained lines/notebook fragments/twisted aphorisms that somehow end up constituting a lyric... but he never really lost his predilection (knack?) for opaque, ambiguous, cut and paste lyrics (torrents of words falling over themselves) until a little way into his solo career.
This is terrific stuff - so basic, yet so little recognized (it often seems). Anyway: Panic seems to me to be a *yoking of 2 ideas*:
1. REVOLUTION IN THATCHER'S BRITAIN - it's happening all over, kids! The miners' strike may have failed, but look at this fantasy! Violence is the only answer to our rulers!...
2. WE DON'T LIKE DISCOS / DANCE MUSIC - extended to 'burn down' idea, this seems like the same idea as #1. But really it's a much narrower Morrisseyesque fantasy.
In yoking the two he left the impression that the whole song was really about #2 (which emerges halfway through); whereas really I feel that #1 (very 80s, very Red Wedge pushed to extreme, in a way) is the key, and drags #2 in its wake.
Corroboration of a sort: Steven Wells made Panic his 45 of the week (July 86) cos it was Politickal, like. (Nothing to do with anti-disco sentiment, which would have repulsed him.) Think about it (as annoying people say).
>>> A thing that rarely gets mentioned: Mick Middles' book (yes, I know it's terrible) insists that when Morrissey & Marr started out, their plan was to become a songwriting team, not a band. Does anyone know if that's true?
No... I don't even recall seeing it. Anyone else?
Hopkins:
>>> I think PF's urge to put the strangeness down to such a simple synthesis is perhaps an oversimplification.
Fine. You're probably right. I was only being 'heuristic', or something. There is still a point there. I am not convinced, I think, that OJ were into that *particular* synthesis.
In return, I think your post is perhaps tainted with (by?) your perpetual post-1983 antipathy to the Smiths. To me, OJ sound (yes) original and different in the way you say - but also less fun than the Smiths (perhaps cos so original and different).
Dods mentions Bowie - I wonder whether my whole fixation on 'strangeness' misses out the idea that Bowie had done all strangenesses before? But no, I think, not quite. (Strange Pop Bowie = other thread.)
― the pinefox, Wednesday, 26 September 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink
― Nitsuh, Wednesday, 26 September 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink
What does it mean to live vicariously through the Smiths? That you fantasize about being a miserable closeted neurotic?
― sundar subramanian, Wednesday, 26 September 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink
When he made the comments I quoted, Hitchens was to me "wrong" because, on the whole, I don't think the traditions he cherishes were worth preserving, but also "right" because I thought he put his argument over very well *even though I disagreed with it*. Certainly, on a personal level, Hitchens is more interesting to me than any other journalist of the right, and there are some fundamental truths he has grasped about the anti-traditionalism (despite appearances) of Thatcherite policies, but I wonder how much of his interest to me is down to the endless amateur sociology *and* amateur psychology you can get out of the contrast between him and his brother.
Dr C: that's sort of what I meant to say about Kill Uncle, but it got lost along the way. It wasn't just the delay: all the singles off that album were just SO WEAK: you could not imagine any of them going Top 10 for one moment. I would concur utterly with what others have said about Morrissey losing his essential ambiguity at that time, and his lyrics becoming so much more boring and uninspiring (of thoughts, of possible meanings, of anything, really).
― Robin Carmody, Wednesday, 26 September 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink
>>> Maybe if the song *had* been longer and more fully-explained, the "REVOLUTION" element might have been given the chance, so to speak, to sound more prominent?
Yes, precisely. Also the disco stuff has been easier for people (journos, whoever) to seize on over the year - where the revolution doesn't really go anywhere. (Is this right?)
Always seemed significant to me that the 45 was released just after Queen is Dead LP: and - more so - that live, they would follow that title track with 'Panic', without a moment's break (cf Rank LP): ie. 'Panic' was an extension of the political analysis of the earlier song. OK, only a pop lyric / tune; not a terribly sophisticated analysis, and tending more to 'adolescent' espousals of rebellion vs the royals / hatred of the Tories than anything properly worked through. But still - not quite the same as the 'racism / anti-disco / reactionary' thing that has been insisted on again and again. Possibly.
>>> I wonder how much of his interest to me is down to the endless amateur sociology *and* amateur psychology you can get out of the contrast between him and his brother.
Sad situation. But CH is also odd and perverse: currently writing articles for Guardian attacking 'liberal twits' who question war / US foreign policy. He's bright and everything, but I think he slightly abuses his position by going for perversity and irritation of readership too much.
>>> It wasn't just the delay: all the singles off that album were just SO WEAK
'Our Frank' - yes. 'Sing Your Life'? Probably. But funnily enough (Nitsuh may back me up here), two non-45s are arguably the most compelling things here: 'Driving Your Girlfriend Home', and 'Mute Witness'. (Thanks to Stevie T for making party tape in June 1997 which brought latter track to my stunned attention in the middle of Covent Garden. Never since abandoned belief that track is grate, though I'm not entirely sure I've even *heard* it since.)
― Tom, Thursday, 27 September 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink
― stevo, Thursday, 27 September 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink
― gareth, Thursday, 27 September 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink
Also what was The Smith's legacy? Twee-core? C-86? (I think mainly not), Jarvis Cocker/Pulp?
― Dr. C, Thursday, 27 September 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink
Legacy? The Smiths were immensely popular amongst the people who would become the twee end of indie, and were a central inspiration for a generation of sensitive kids to form bands and write sensitive songs. You could argue whether that meant twee-core was the legacy of the Smiths either way. I think it's *a* legacy of the Smiths. Pulp another, without question I think.
I did love the Smiths very dearly once upon a time, but I balk at talk of them being a miracle. I can't remember thinking "that sounds like nothing I've ever heard" (except perhaps on first hearing "How Soon Is Now"). I can remember thinking that some of their records were unbearably exciting. (If this comment bears the 'taint' of my not being a raving Smiths enthusiast, PF, please feel free to ignore it).
― Tim, Thursday, 27 September 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink
>>> I do think the band's relationship with / musical break from punk is crucial
OK - I'll buy it, though I'm not sure I get it yet.
>>> and the reading of "Panic" which various people seem to be reaching for above can be thought of as a punk story too: in the lyric you see a wave of unspecified panic crystallise into a musical battle, the fear and confusion of the initial verses collapses into the safety / sterility of a polemic reaching no further than the DJ booth.
This is a fine argument.
Weird complicating Pulp fact = Pulp started before Smiths? - or sth absurd like that?
>>> I did love the Smiths very dearly once upon a time, but I balk at talk of them being a miracle.
I meant 'miracle' in a non-evaluative sense - which I know sounds oxymoronic. I'm sure you think that my attempt to be non-evaluative is 'tainted' by evaluation. Probably it is, and possibly you think that's OK (possibly inevitable) anyway. I don't mind balking at (talk of) miracles, but in pop terms I can't think of that many things that deserve the term better than this lot (but possibly nothing does), whether in evaluative or non-evaluative terms (assuming that either category exists).
>>> (If this comment bears the 'taint' of my not being a raving Smiths enthusiast, PF, please feel free to ignore it).
Oh, I did.
― the pinefox, Thursday, 27 September 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink
Also compare Devoto's famous "I am angry, I am ill, and I'm as ugly as sin" line from Magazine's "Song From Under the Floorboards" with Morrissey's later preoccupations with illness and ugliness.
I go for 'a major incident in pop history' to describe the imapct of The Smiths rather than any definition of 'miracle'. Yet, I'm still struggling to understand what of consequence, if anything, they left behind. Here's my best shot at asking the question - "What did the advent of Morrissey allow artists to now do (which no-one did before)?" 'Scuse the bad grammar.
― Dr. C, Friday, 28 September 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink
― Tim, Friday, 28 September 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink
― Damian, Friday, 28 September 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink
Doc C says, what did M leave behind? - etc. It's a very good question - BUT, can't a band / artist / whatever (in any medium) be 'great' and still NOT have a great influence? (cf, as always, Eliot's review of Ulysses, on this point.)
My feeling is that he made possible a more conversational style - he opened the door to new kinds of verbal awkwardness. But that is not meant to imply that there was no conversation or awkwardness pre-M.
Damian - I agree re. the chronology, but not re. musicianship. Marr was very much a 'musician' - not just a three-chord hack. There is always a sense, I think, of him 'doing what's right for the record'. You may have a point re. lyric-determines-length-of-track - but then, what about all those records where that doesn't apply? = That Joke / HSIN? / Queen Is Dead etc. I don't know - your argument is good, but I think Marr *could* easily have gone on and played fabulous 5-minute outros - *and I wish he had...*
― the pinefox, Saturday, 29 September 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink
― Damian, Sunday, 30 September 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink
― alberto piccinini, Wednesday, 3 October 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink
Is that YOU over there in the gloom, Pinefox?
― Dr. C, Wednesday, 3 October 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink
― the pinefox, Thursday, 4 October 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink
it's presumably a glancing sideways allusion to William Wordsworth, and it says a lot about the culture Morrissey came from: romantic fantasies of pre-industrial Britain, while superficially appealing, ultimately unsettle him as much as the erosion of the Industrial Revolution legacy and its replacement by rootless consumerism, because both present a vision of a parallel universe in which the culture he came from would never have existed (Manchester is often cited as "the first industrial city" and it was certainly an irrelevant backwater before the flight from the land enabled it to rapidly become an economic powerhouse). visions of the pre-industrial world erode and threaten Morrissey's urban-socialist-collectivist past, and the creation of a deunionised Manchester where Janet Jackson is a more important cultural figure than J.B. Priestley (the mortal fear which drives the main narrative to "Panic") presents the clear message of NO FUTURE. it's as if, amid bleak premonitions of his future, he's dismissing a possible solace because of the threat it poses to his pride in his past.
why don't people focus on that line in particular? it's pretty much the epitome of a deeply conservative Old Labour mindset, as though he sort of wants to find solace in an unchanging, utopian, monocultural vision of the countryside as a place to escape his hated deindustrialisation and decollectivisation and consumerisation and all-pervasive cultural hybridisation in the erstwhile socialist heartlands from whence he came, but that very Old Labour tribalism stops him (all the neo-ruralists in the last 35 years of pop culture came from pretty middle-class backgrounds AFAIK, and I find it very hard to imagine Fairport Convention coming even from the more salubrious parts of Greater Manchester, the equivalent suburbs to the Wimbledons and Muswell Hills from whence they actually came. as for such a band coming from Sheffield or Newcastle? utterly unthinkable, certainly in that generation, before the Industrial Revolution legacy crumbled and the new pick-and-mix rootlessness set in.)
― robin carmody (robin carmody), Wednesday, 11 December 2002 21:11 (10 years ago) Permalink
a few contenders:
Wham!, "Bad Boys"
Bros, "When Will I Be Famous"
Happy Mondays, "Step On" (also Mancunian of course so probably the most obvious)
The Brotherhood, "Punk Funk"
Clipse, "Grindin'" (Westwood: "CHEETHAM HILL MASSIVE!!!")
― robin carmody (robin carmody), Wednesday, 11 December 2002 21:34 (10 years ago) Permalink
― Dr. C (Dr. C), Thursday, 12 December 2002 11:10 (10 years ago) Permalink
― alex in mainhattan (alex63), Thursday, 12 December 2002 12:00 (10 years ago) Permalink
― Dr. C (Dr. C), Thursday, 12 December 2002 13:11 (10 years ago) Permalink
― the pinefox, Thursday, 12 December 2002 14:40 (10 years ago) Permalink
"Panic" is a *weird* record, isn't it? Bloody weird, to be honest. Bizarrely, its emotional extremity and call-to-arms reminds me now of Eminem's "Lose Yourself", but ***from the opposite starting point***. It's almost an anti-pop pop record, in that it's an explicit refusal of the cultural exchanges that were already, by 1986, forming 90% of the Top 40. In fact, it's probably the best possible candidate for Tom's "Berlin WHAT?" thread, not in terms of actual reference points per se, just the ethos that formed it.
I recently said (not on here IIRC) that Wham!'s "I'm Your Man" was to Thatcherism what something like Elgar's "Dream of Gerontius" was to romantic Toryism: the epitome of the ethos expressed in music. If pure Thatcherism said "fuck you, High Tories *and* puritan socialists" ... well, it was revulsion at hearing "I'm Your Man" in a thoroughly inappropriate context which inspired "Panic" in the first place, so I always imagine Prince Charles hearing Diana playing it and getting TOTALLY PISSED OFF (remember his expression when she dragged him along to see Michael Jackson at Wembley in 1988? something like that).
I'm waffling, aren't I? But "I'm Your Man" and "Panic" = the Thatcher and Scargill of pop, surely, the radical of the right and the desperate nostalgic dreamer of the left.
― robin carmody (robin carmody), Thursday, 12 December 2002 15:47 (10 years ago) Permalink
Hey Pine! Are you going to the ILX Christmas thing?
― Dr. C (Dr. C), Thursday, 12 December 2002 16:04 (10 years ago) Permalink
God ... I loved that period of ILM, even if it went over certain heads :).
oh, and Gareth to thread!
― robin carmody (robin carmody), Thursday, 12 December 2002 16:07 (10 years ago) Permalink
Robin C: can't seem to remember what heads you mean - not that I expect you to mention them by name.
― the pinefox, Thursday, 12 December 2002 16:54 (10 years ago) Permalink
― robin carmody (robin carmody), Thursday, 12 December 2002 18:02 (10 years ago) Permalink
― N. (nickdastoor), Tuesday, 12 August 2003 20:10 (9 years ago) Permalink
― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Tuesday, 12 August 2003 20:15 (9 years ago) Permalink
― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 12 August 2003 20:16 (9 years ago) Permalink
― Mary (Mary), Tuesday, 12 August 2003 23:47 (9 years ago) Permalink
― s1utsky (slutsky), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 00:39 (9 years ago) Permalink
Mick Middles' book (yes, I know it's terrible) insists that when Morrissey & Marr started out, their plan was to become a songwriting team, not a band. Does anyone know if that's true?
This may be part mythology, but according to both "The Severed Alliance" and "The Songs that Saved Your Life" Marr went and knocked on Morrissey's door to introduce himself because he was fascinated with the Leiber/Stoller story/ethos (which mentor and later manager Joe Moss introduced him to) and wanted to carry on in that tradition. Of course there was a go-between, Stephen Pomfret, who had been in a band with Morrissey called the Nosebleeds, who was at first allotted a space in the new band and then dismissed once his work was provided. Marr was five years younger than Morrissey, so they traveled in slightly different circles, though they had met once before, at a (Buzzcocks?) concert. Morrissey was also very interested in the great songwriting tradition, Brill, and especially 60s girl groups, and at their meeting Marr was sure to play up his interest in that area also. Marr later disdained Morrissey's girl pop covers as the worst things they'd ever done though. I think the thought was that, if they couldn't make it as a band (because they couldn't find the right other members), they could at least write songs for others. This is evidenced in their frequent pleas/campaign to Sandie Shaw to let them write a song for her. But it didn't seem to go much further than that.
When I played a Smiths bootleg that I had just picked up, Gareth said, "The Smiths sound like they're all playing a different song at the same time." I had never thought of it that was, but given their background it makes sense. Marr had a dilettante background, tons of different influences, but had been most recently in a funk band with Rourke called Freak Party. And Joyce came from a punk band. These influences had to be stifled to an extent to please Morrissey. Toward the end, Marr was even fed up with their "jangly" ethos. At the time Marr was working in at X clothes shop and meeting a lot of people, creating a lot of opportunities for himself. His previous bands hadn't worked out so he set off to find himself a lead singer. Morrissey was sitting at home collecting unemployment and writing fanzine type books about The New York Dolls and James Dean. In progress were books about 60s girl groups and "Exit Smiling," a book about underrated Hollywood movie stars. These latter were shelved once the Smiths began. Apparently the songwriting process worked like this: Marr, and later his producers, would work out the tune, and then Morrissey would add music. But it wasn't that simple, if Morrissey wasn't pleased, he would ask for the melody/mood to be more like "this" and Marr was left guessing at and then striving for what would please Morrissey. One song, apparently, "Draize Train," Morrissey regarded so lightly that he could never make lyrics for it, so this was left as an instrumental. As others have mentioned above, Morrissey's very unusual phrasing would have the band revising the tune even more.
Morrissey was also apparently jealous of any of Marr's relationships outside of their own. This led to first manager and Marr friend Joe Moss leaving the group, and seemed to affect their management throughout. Morrissey didn't trust anyone in control of his business, nor was he comfortable executing the decisions himself, as much as he was making them. This left Marr in the unfortunate position of doing all of Morrissey's dirty work. Morrissey did seem to have a very crafty business head: the deal he worked with Rough Trade was 50/50 (with only himself and Marr as beneficiaries of course. He was also apparently stingy in paying his roadies. The only way Joe Moss got paid after he left was from Marr's pocket. The Smiths were virtually unmanageable, and this may explain their haphazard single/record releases. Though Rough Trade must have something to do with this also. Certain songs that should have been released as singles never were, or were too late, as "How Soon is Now," and tons of single were thrown out to the public, and then collected on a compilation to the hold the fans over until the next proper album. I don't know if this is common in the UK? This may have also reflected Morrissey/Marr's reevaluation of the 45 as superior to the album and their belief in the themselves/desire to be foremost pop chartists. The band also had serious problems with their producers. Marr bonded heavily with John Porter, and the two of them got very into adding guitar upon guitar into the mix, which Morrissey wasn't very happy with. They were guitar geeks and spent tons of time in the studio messing around. Morrissey was a purist and wanted to tone down any technological influence, "Hand in Glove" was given it's clubby sound purely by distortion, a trick the band used to get around Morrissey's edicts. Morrissey preferred Stephen Street as a producer, who he later worked with at the beginning of his solo career, and I think Marr just learned how to be a producer himself to get around Morrissey's jealousy.
What I'm trying to get at is the all-consuming fear and loathing of women and heterosexual acts on that first record. Most explicit in "Pretty Girls Make Graves," but hinted in the squalid depiction of sexuality in "Miserable Lie" and pretty much all over the place
I think the loathing isn't specific to "heterosexual" acts, just sexual. The "Pretty Girls Make Graves" is another plundering--this time from Jack Kerouak's "Dharma Bums" and probably appropriated for its sense of futility and poetic drama rather than a specific misogyny. Morrissey was extremely "pro-feminist" as a youth -- he went to meet Patty Smith (through fanzine connections) wearing a button that said "Women's Liberation." He apparently also walked around Manchester with a button reading, "Lesbian Liberation," which could not have gone over well in those days. Morrissey was very influenced by the "Fourth Sex" regarding Jack Nichol's "Men's Liberation" as his Bible. Elizabeth Brownmiller's "Against Our Will" and similar pro-feminist books as Suzy mentioned above were also very influential. "He wanted to get beyond stereotypical male and female roles. I think "Miserable Lie" addresses the futility of relationships in general. The singer said a very interesting thing on the recent doc "Importance of Being Morrissey." This is just a paraphrase, but his interviewer asked him, "Would you ever consider living with somebody?" M.: "No, I can't imagine how that would even happen really." Interview: "Have you ever considered it?" M: "No, I don't think human beings are meant to live together. I don't think people get on really."
Side note: When Marr left the band, the Smiths asked Roddy Frame to replace him. He refused.
― Mary (Mary), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 02:27 (9 years ago) Permalink
It is the next logical step.
― Larcole (Nicole), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 02:36 (9 years ago) Permalink
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 13 August 2003 03:01 (9 years ago) Permalink
― elwisty (elwisty), Saturday, 19 February 2005 19:06 (8 years ago) Permalink
― ailsa (ailsa), Monday, 28 March 2005 11:06 (8 years ago) Permalink
― JoB (JoB), Monday, 28 March 2005 11:34 (8 years ago) Permalink
"Yes, I'm THAT good."
(Actually, regular reader/sometime poster Melinda Mess-Injure is going to be presenting at this!)
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 28 March 2005 12:05 (8 years ago) Permalink
Yes they were a miracle.
I'm gonna have to kick your arses in a minute with Smiths talk. Just warning you.
― Get Unbanned (Bimble), Saturday, 7 February 2009 20:37 (4 years ago) Permalink
"The death of a disco dancer Well, it happens a lot 'round here And if you think Peace Is a common goal That goes to show How little you know
The death of a disco dancer Well, I'd rather not get involved I never talk to my neighbour I'd rather not get involved "
Prescient, yes?
― bidfurd, Sunday, 8 February 2009 20:45 (4 years ago) Permalink
Just read this thread, really quite something, anyway there's a couple of question I would like to ask relating to the issues raised in this thread, there is talk of Morrissey and The Smith's "legacy". I was wondering how peoples view had changed taking into account his perhaps nostalgia based comeback and obviously Smiths / Moz indebted yet achingly conservative bands reclaiming the indie / NME world. There's a notion put forward here that provincial Britain as Moz understood no longer exists but these bands seem like a studied attempt to speak to / about provincial Britain in the way Moz did. Though The Libertines who I am thinking of her got derailed by their own myth pretty quickly without bring anything particularly interesting to the table. Whilst perhaps someone like The Streets does talk about provincial Britain in a way that doesn't reek of conservative nostalgia though of course it could be argued he is part of a very different tradition and a completely different vision of Britain. The lyrics of many You Are The Quarry songs suggest that Britain no longer exists for Morrissey as anything but memory and pastiche (Come Back To Camden, Irish Blood, English Heart)? But was it ever anything but that? This is reminding me of the thread on Bob Dylan if Dylan is the link between two eras is Morrissey a sort of link between two significantly different epochs of British cultural history, from mining to malls or something. From tin mines to Tescos? Corner shops to Co-Op?― elwisty (elwisty), Saturday, 19 February 2005 19:06 (3 years ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink
^so glad this guy stopped posting
― Limoncello Carlin (The stickman from the hilarious "xkcd" comics), Sunday, 8 February 2009 21:05 (4 years ago) Permalink
elwisty a villa fan by any chance?
― Henry Frog (Frogman Henry), Sunday, 8 February 2009 21:06 (4 years ago) Permalink
It's the other one, but I get them confused all the time as well tbh.
― Limoncello Carlin (The stickman from the hilarious "xkcd" comics), Sunday, 8 February 2009 21:11 (4 years ago) Permalink
the miracle of this thread. best ilm thread ever?
― alex in mainhattan, Sunday, 8 February 2009 21:41 (4 years ago) Permalink
One of those great old threads where I look through it years later hoping, "Man, I hope I didn't say something really stupid during this terrific discussion." And I didn't say anything at all, thankfully.
― Mark, Sunday, 8 February 2009 22:04 (4 years ago) Permalink
TBH I only recently started watching footage of early Smiths concerts. It is kind of incredible that this man was a pop star:
Not even like charmingly Michael Stipe-ish geekiness.
― Sundar, Sunday, 8 February 2009 22:09 (4 years ago) Permalink
(Like, speaking as someone who's pretty awkward and unco-ordinated but harbours no ambitions to pop stardom.)
― Sundar, Sunday, 8 February 2009 22:13 (4 years ago) Permalink
Just academic stardom.
― the pinefox, Monday, 9 February 2009 13:04 (4 years ago) Permalink
This thread was also amazingly self-renewing -- it had Nabisco, Dr C and Carmody writing great screeds early on, but years later the marvellous Mary could still pop up and write an even bigger one.
― the pinefox, Monday, 9 February 2009 13:09 (4 years ago) Permalink
I think elwisty got the return and ? keys on his computer confused.
― Ozman Bin Laden (Raw Patrick), Monday, 9 February 2009 13:15 (4 years ago) Permalink
lol aspergers
― special guest stars mark bronson, Monday, 9 February 2009 13:33 (4 years ago) Permalink
lol you're a dick
― (The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Tuesday, 10 February 2009 00:11 (4 years ago) Permalink
Heads up -- from the folks who brought you the New Order/Joy Division Recycle blog:
http://smithsrecycle.blogspot.com/
― Ned Raggett, Tuesday, 10 August 2010 14:29 (2 years ago) Permalink
:D
― tylerw, Tuesday, 10 August 2010 15:10 (2 years ago) Permalink
Thanks, Ned.
― Un peu d'Eire, ça fait toujours Dublin (Michael White), Tuesday, 10 August 2010 15:46 (2 years ago) Permalink
kewl
― peacocks, Tuesday, 10 August 2010 16:19 (2 years ago) Permalink
Bookmarked!
― he's always been a bit of an anti-climb Max (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Tuesday, 10 August 2010 18:14 (2 years ago) Permalink
Stoked for this.
― more lunacy and witchcraft! (kkvgz), Tuesday, 10 August 2010 18:22 (2 years ago) Permalink
Hope some fans pick up the idea and do this for The Cure too.
― brotherlovesdub, Tuesday, 10 August 2010 18:32 (2 years ago) Permalink
I know it's in bad taste to go "OMG this thread is so good!!!"
But yeah, OMG this thread is so good!!!
― FRESH MEAT (MFB), Tuesday, 10 August 2010 19:44 (2 years ago) Permalink
It is good! (today's stinking it up a bit, though)
― Ismael Klata, Tuesday, 10 August 2010 20:03 (2 years ago) Permalink
Aw.
― Ned Raggett, Tuesday, 10 August 2010 20:07 (2 years ago) Permalink
it was my emoticon, wasn't it ... :(
― tylerw, Tuesday, 10 August 2010 20:08 (2 years ago) Permalink
Still no Smiths action figures...
― Born too beguiled (DavidM), Tuesday, 10 August 2010 20:13 (2 years ago) Permalink
Sorry Ned, now I feel bad.
― Ismael Klata, Tuesday, 10 August 2010 20:21 (2 years ago) Permalink
shit just got real
― reallysmoothmusic (Jamie_ATP), Tuesday, 10 August 2010 20:56 (2 years ago) Permalink
actually wait a second, what is andy cairns from therapy and that guy from sum 41 doing in mozza's band?
― reallysmoothmusic (Jamie_ATP), Tuesday, 10 August 2010 20:57 (2 years ago) Permalink
nooooooooooooo
― seger ros (crüt), Tuesday, 10 August 2010 21:00 (2 years ago) Permalink
you know I looked at the name of that URL and still I thought it was going to be of action figures
― people are for loving (HI DERE), Tuesday, 10 August 2010 21:02 (2 years ago) Permalink
I still think of this post, often, when driving
― Teddybears.SHTML (sic), Wednesday, 11 August 2010 00:07 (2 years ago) Permalink
in case you missed this:
Search and Destroy : New Order
― Bee OK, Friday, 27 August 2010 04:35 (2 years ago) Permalink
umm, i missed it, but that is one of the most amazing album covers i've ever seen. please let that be real.
― a dystopian society awaits if we continue on this path. (contenderizer), Friday, 27 August 2010 04:39 (2 years ago) Permalink
To re-revive:
http://smithsrecycle.blogspot.com/2010/10/updatey-ness.html
― Ned Raggett, Friday, 29 October 2010 14:49 (2 years ago) Permalink
Don't like the sound of Wnr Br0$ shutting their blog down. Surely they'd have bigger fish to fry.. ah well let's hope so.
Meanwhile there's a brilliant How To Buy The Smiths article right at the back of MOJO December issue which just came out in the uk. It goes for Hatful.. as the best album, as voted for by writers and members of MOJO forum. I concur!
― piscesx, Saturday, 30 October 2010 10:45 (2 years ago) Permalink
Heads up, folks. It's started:
http://smithsrecycle.blogspot.com/2010/10/etaatb-01-rt131-hand-in-glove.html
― Ned Raggett, Sunday, 31 October 2010 12:32 (2 years ago) Permalink
didn't really 'get' the smiths until recently - this will be a good way back in. cheers!
― dayo, Sunday, 31 October 2010 12:37 (2 years ago) Permalink
i can see just from the first blog post that i'll be learning a few things here. and there was me fancying myself as some kind of Smiths expert! what was Brixton Ace i wonder? never heard of it before.
― piscesx, Sunday, 31 October 2010 19:27 (2 years ago) Permalink
this is going to be fun, those cover scans are incredible.
― ILB's biggest fanboy for the SF Giants (Bee OK), Monday, 1 November 2010 01:33 (2 years ago) Permalink
update!
― piscesx, Monday, 1 November 2010 02:44 (2 years ago) Permalink
http://smithsrecycle.blogspot.com/2010/10/etaatb-02-rtt136a-reel-around-fountain.html
― Ned Raggett, Monday, 1 November 2010 02:46 (2 years ago) Permalink
well i didn't think it possible to make the smiths interesting in 2010, but here we are
― Sniiiiip! (electricsound), Monday, 1 November 2010 02:53 (2 years ago) Permalink
hand in glove was amazing, thanks for posting the updates about this...would have had no idea.
― skip, Monday, 1 November 2010 03:04 (2 years ago) Permalink
shocked by how excited I am for this
― Mark, Monday, 1 November 2010 03:30 (2 years ago) Permalink
had no idea about a planned RATF single. Jeane was always a brilliant song. one of the few lesser known B sides thanks to it's exclusion from the 80's era compilations.
― piscesx, Monday, 1 November 2010 04:02 (2 years ago) Permalink
I like how dismissive the post is about morrissey
― dayo, Monday, 1 November 2010 04:03 (2 years ago) Permalink
yeah I find it weird that someone could be a smiths fanboy w/o being a morrissey fanboy, at least on some level
― iatee, Monday, 1 November 2010 05:18 (2 years ago) Permalink
Not really -- I've encountered enough people over time who are very explicitly all about Marr and the music above all else, and who really don't bother with Morrissey solo much. They're a smaller and much less visible group of Smiths fans than the expected norm, but they're there.
― Ned Raggett, Monday, 1 November 2010 05:22 (2 years ago) Permalink
well I can understanding not liking his solo career - I personally don't like much beyond the singles - but his persona and lyrics are such a major part of 'the miracle of the smiths'...
― iatee, Monday, 1 November 2010 05:27 (2 years ago) Permalink
but yeah, people are weird
― iatee, Monday, 1 November 2010 05:28 (2 years ago) Permalink
morrissey as a person does my head in to be honest. that night he flounced offstage last year in Liverpool after 1 song was the last straw for me. The Smiths are still my fave band of the 80s by some distance but his solo career could make a good 6 track mini album at best imho.
― piscesx, Monday, 1 November 2010 05:40 (2 years ago) Permalink
Morrissey has evolved an not always in ways I have found satisfying as I, too, have evolved. He has a couple of singles I like but The Smiths was the great musical love of my adolescence and that doesn't mean I have to keep following now. Ned, I love Marr but the last time he was in town fronting his forgettable band, I actually yawned and ended up leaving.
― A Reclaimer Hewn With (Michael White), Monday, 1 November 2010 16:00 (2 years ago) Permalink
Haha believe me, I couldn't even muster that level of interest for Marr solo.
― Ned Raggett, Monday, 1 November 2010 16:12 (2 years ago) Permalink
one time an old band i was in did a bunch of smiths covers for a cover band contest.
was really interesting learning their material....gave us such an appreciation for them as musicians...marr's parts are incredibly odd and difficult to learn, such a personal style of playing guitar (and frankly or guitarist had to just get it "close" esp on the more picky stuff)...
another thing that really sticks out when you sit down and learn the parts is how amazing rourke and joyce are as a rhythm section....rourke's bass lines are so melodic and invenetive, even if he's not really "showy" in a classic musicianly way....
another weird thing, is that sometimes the parts weren't the "right" number of measures...like in general in rock it will be okay well four bars of this, then sixteen bars of that, then eight bars of the chorus, etc etc...def EVEN numbers
sometimes with the smiths it would be well four bars, then eight, then FIVE, then twelve or something...it was usually apparent that they were conforming the songwriting to whatever lyrics morrissey had and not vice versa...
― underrated joe perry project albums i have sold (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Monday, 1 November 2010 16:25 (2 years ago) Permalink
My favourite memory was Andy Rourke's remark on Marr singing a melody line along with Morrissey during a session, saying they sounded like Peters and Lee.
(check the harmonies on Electronic's "Get the message")
― Mark G, Monday, 1 November 2010 16:32 (2 years ago) Permalink
ah, this stuff sounds great thus far ... deep smiths immersion begins NOW.
― tylerw, Monday, 1 November 2010 16:44 (2 years ago) Permalink
Why I am still so geeked to hear this? I should have grown out of this by now.
― romoing my damn eyes (Nicole), Monday, 1 November 2010 16:51 (2 years ago) Permalink
drums sound way bigger on this reel around the fountain.
― underrated joe perry project albums i have sold (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Monday, 1 November 2010 17:06 (2 years ago) Permalink
what was Brixton Ace i wonder? never heard of it before.
I think it's the Fridge now.
― a fucking stove just fell on my foot. (Colonel Poo), Monday, 1 November 2010 17:11 (2 years ago) Permalink
yeah, all those troy tate mixes are pretty sweet.
― tylerw, Monday, 1 November 2010 17:12 (2 years ago) Permalink
Cannot wait to get home tonight to dl these! Figures that the week I quit obsessively checking the blog every day it would finally launch.
― "I am a fairly respected poster." (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Monday, 1 November 2010 18:11 (2 years ago) Permalink
never heard the Tate bootleg sound so good as on Accept Yourself here.
― piscesx, Monday, 1 November 2010 18:37 (2 years ago) Permalink
yeah i actually compared my copy of the tate sessions to the tracks they've posted and it's a huge improvement.
― tylerw, Monday, 1 November 2010 18:39 (2 years ago) Permalink
Figures that the week I quit obsessively checking the blog every day it would finally launch.
In 2010 people aren't using RSS feeds?
Google Reader please.
― Badmotorfinger Debate Club (MFB), Tuesday, 2 November 2010 00:24 (2 years ago) Permalink
this is from an eno interview i read yesterday...don't know if it had been suggested prior or whether 'pop in 85' really did mean 'them, the smiths', automatically
...What do you think of modern pop music?I rather like them, The Smiths. I think they're a good band. I think Morrissey is an extraordinarily arrogant person, especially considering that he's probably the most successful tone-deaf singer the world has ever knows. But that being said, I like his singing quite a lot, and I like their records. I could live without some of his studied miserableness, I suppose.But I don't listen to records much.
I rather like them, The Smiths. I think they're a good band. I think Morrissey is an extraordinarily arrogant person, especially considering that he's probably the most successful tone-deaf singer the world has ever knows. But that being said, I like his singing quite a lot, and I like their records. I could live without some of his studied miserableness, I suppose.
But I don't listen to records much.
― Terminal Boredoms (nakhchivan), Tuesday, 2 November 2010 00:31 (2 years ago) Permalink
These all sound so much better than the Tate sessions I already had...they're almost unbelievably good.
― romoing my damn eyes (Nicole), Tuesday, 2 November 2010 02:23 (2 years ago) Permalink
The most thorough examination of all the various different Tate sessions/ demos i've come across is here. I'm glad somebody went to the trouble of working all this out.http://tinyurl.com/322arwp
― piscesx, Tuesday, 2 November 2010 04:13 (2 years ago) Permalink
This isn't being updated fast enough! ;)
― Can you keep up? (Cheetah), Tuesday, 2 November 2010 23:29 (2 years ago) Permalink
I agree. I thought the concern was with it being taken down quickly. Bizarre to post two in a row then nothing for going on 2 days.
― brotherlovesdub, Wednesday, 3 November 2010 00:30 (2 years ago) Permalink
really enjoying the first two singles. finally had a chance to listen to them both in full. hope they end up releasing all of the Troy Tate sessions with this fantastic mastering. Sounds great.
― brotherlovesdub, Wednesday, 3 November 2010 03:37 (2 years ago) Permalink
Oh my, two days, lawdy.
― Mark G, Wednesday, 3 November 2010 09:24 (2 years ago) Permalink
The gap between my general indifference towards the Smiths and my love for "Panic" is huge. I actually find "Panic" weirdly moving. Not for any specific sentiment expressed. It's more like being moved by somebody making a perfect, once-in-a-lifetime statement in a two-minute song.
― clemenza, Wednesday, 3 November 2010 13:45 (2 years ago) Permalink
panic is music that says something about me and my life. i don't know what though.
― alex in mainhattan, Wednesday, 3 November 2010 17:06 (2 years ago) Permalink
Haha, I do use this, but for some reason I've had trouble with blogs I've added in the last 6 months not updating. Think I've fixed it now though.
― "I am a fairly respected poster." (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Wednesday, 3 November 2010 17:10 (2 years ago) Permalink
.. throw me a frickin bone here
― piscesx, Saturday, 6 November 2010 03:45 (2 years ago) Permalink
was hoping for an update this weekend. not all the interesting in This Charming Man but they may have something interesting. Really interested in Barbarism.
― brotherlovesdub, Saturday, 6 November 2010 04:00 (2 years ago) Permalink
It'll be Charming, plus all the remixes...
(there's been a few unreleased ones)
― Mark G, Saturday, 6 November 2010 16:37 (2 years ago) Permalink
well in the meantime..
― piscesx, Tuesday, 30 November 2010 06:06 (2 years ago) Permalink
morrissey is the str8est looking dude in that freezeframe
― i'm assuming that it's tity boi, host of the mixtape (sic), Tuesday, 30 November 2010 06:35 (2 years ago) Permalink
A miracle!
― Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 8 December 2010 17:40 (2 years ago) Permalink
british parliament looks like an amazing thing
― steendriver DUMB BIG, his HOOS got HOOS (dayo), Wednesday, 8 December 2010 23:47 (2 years ago) Permalink
OTM
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Thursday, 9 December 2010 00:43 (2 years ago) Permalink
http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/musicblog/2010/dec/15/smiths-queen-is-dead
― piscesx, Wednesday, 15 December 2010 14:11 (2 years ago) Permalink
just turned up on emusic. was their full discography on itunes before? in any event, it appears to be now. if it's new on itunes, also, that's -- to me -- 100X more significant than the beatles arriving on itunes.
― Daniel, Esq., Friday, 17 December 2010 22:09 (2 years ago) Permalink
Update of sorts.
― piscesx, Monday, 20 December 2010 16:55 (2 years ago) Permalink
That thing that that update is about is a real revelation.
― Badmotorfinger Debate Club (MFB), Tuesday, 21 December 2010 13:15 (2 years ago) Permalink
about this Smiths Recycle site: I've downloaded the first two sets of songs. Nice to have one or two things I didn't have digitally - a Troy Tate track, 'hand in glove' live. But not sure I yet get the point of it as a whole. The main 'hand in glove' for instance seems the same as the one on Louder Than Bombs.
can anyone enlighten?
― the pinefox, Wednesday, 22 December 2010 10:26 (2 years ago) Permalink
It's supposed to be "Superiorly mastered" versions of the singles' main tracks, from best sources. Plus bonus tracks as apposite.
― Mark G, Wednesday, 22 December 2010 10:30 (2 years ago) Permalink
wow, that new update.. never thought we'd ever get to hear Heavy Track and the early run through of There Is A Light.. and suchlike. been waiting for these to leak since i first read Simon Goddard's book in 2002.
― piscesx, Wednesday, 22 December 2010 13:25 (2 years ago) Permalink
Well, that's a matter of opinion.
― Mark G, Wednesday, 22 December 2010 13:35 (2 years ago) Permalink
pretty sure it's a statement.
― Stay J0rdan Fresh (sic), Wednesday, 22 December 2010 13:47 (2 years ago) Permalink
...easily the most mind-blowing was the discovery of a never-before-mentioned Morrissey/Marr song from 1982 called A Matter Of Opinion."Musically, it's very much in the same R 'n' B vein as What Difference Does It Make? while the lyrics are typical Morrissey and quite cynical."It's not yet known whether the track will be released.---Update: 05/25 00:48 GMT: An anonymous person adds details from the print NME:...while the lyrics are typical Morrissey and quite cynical. The opening line is - "Sit by the fire with your books and pretend that you're active"But they never played it live and there's just the one copy on a rehearsal tape. It's been kept quiet for nearly 20 years so from a fan's perspective this is sensational news."...Simon Goddard's The Smiths - Songs That Saved Your Life will be published in November by Reynolds & Hearn---
"Musically, it's very much in the same R 'n' B vein as What Difference Does It Make? while the lyrics are typical Morrissey and quite cynical."
It's not yet known whether the track will be released.---Update: 05/25 00:48 GMT: An anonymous person adds details from the print NME:...while the lyrics are typical Morrissey and quite cynical. The opening line is - "Sit by the fire with your books and pretend that you're active"
But they never played it live and there's just the one copy on a rehearsal tape. It's been kept quiet for nearly 20 years so from a fan's perspective this is sensational news."
...Simon Goddard's The Smiths - Songs That Saved Your Life will be published in November by Reynolds & Hearn---
― Mark G, Wednesday, 22 December 2010 13:49 (2 years ago) Permalink
i dunno what's more baffling; these unreleased tracks not leaking years back or Marr and Mozza not putting a proper box set out sooner that had them all on. either way it's amazing to have them out at last.
― piscesx, Wednesday, 22 December 2010 14:06 (2 years ago) Permalink
Selling the music to a major label that's unbothered about legacy editions until US Rock radio do a legacy retrospective, can do that.
― Mark G, Wednesday, 22 December 2010 14:08 (2 years ago) Permalink
i dunno what's more baffling; these unreleased tracks not leaking years back or Marr and Mozza not putting a proper box set out sooner that had them all on.either way it's amazing to have them out at last.
I agree.
― THX THO... (Nicole), Wednesday, 22 December 2010 14:41 (2 years ago) Permalink
i'm ecstatic with this version of the queen is dead, which i always wanted to be longer than it is.
can anyone explain me
"and so i broke into the palacewith a sponge and a rusty spanner"
why those two things?
― jed_, Wednesday, 22 December 2010 14:41 (2 years ago) Permalink
spanner: clobber her over the head, sponge: to wipe up after. also because spanner reminds with 'piana'.
― piscesx, Wednesday, 22 December 2010 14:48 (2 years ago) Permalink
of course!
i was in London a few months back and i saw Morrissey on Brompton Road. my head was swimming with shock for about five minutes afterwards.
― jed_, Wednesday, 22 December 2010 14:49 (2 years ago) Permalink
*rhymes with.
heck this new Smiths bootleg excitement has played havoc with my spelling.
― piscesx, Wednesday, 22 December 2010 14:50 (2 years ago) Permalink
does anyone need/want to hear the francois kervorkian remixes of "this charming man"? i have them here. vocal and dub.
― jed_, Wednesday, 22 December 2010 14:52 (2 years ago) Permalink
"i broke into the palace with a sponge and a rusty spanner" is a reference to Michael Fagan whose encounter with the Queen was notable for its mundane elements.
― fit and working again, Wednesday, 22 December 2010 17:23 (2 years ago) Permalink
From the sources i've read Sony are totally into getting the rare stuff out there, its Morrissey/Marr who can't get their acts together.
― reallysmoothmusic (Jamie_ATP), Wednesday, 22 December 2010 17:26 (2 years ago) Permalink
I wrote to Johnny Rogan in 1992 and asked him about that verse.
He replied, in a fairly long handwritten letter, that the sponge and spanner were, he supposed, emblems of the proletariat.
― the pinefox, Wednesday, 22 December 2010 19:51 (2 years ago) Permalink
I just hear it as two pathetic items with which to attempt a break-in. Whimsy. pathos and a nice turn of phrase seemed enough.
― Alba, Wednesday, 22 December 2010 22:53 (2 years ago) Permalink
A great big LOLWUT at the sitar on Sheila Take a Bow.
― THX THO... (Nicole), Thursday, 23 December 2010 07:49 (2 years ago) Permalink
yeah amazingly incongruous! kinda like it though.
best bits of the nu boot IMHO: the proper This Night Has Opened My Eyes and There Is A Light.. with new words! already a lot of Smiths types seem to be saying they *prefer* it to the original. strange to hear the american-ised "because i wanna see people and i wanna see life" instead of the traditional 'wanT To'.
can't quite see the fuss over the reggae-fied Girlfriend In A Coma mind.
― piscesx, Thursday, 23 December 2010 08:59 (2 years ago) Permalink
I thought the sponge was to deaden the sound of the spanner hitting the Queen's skull...
― Mark G, Thursday, 23 December 2010 09:15 (2 years ago) Permalink
A potted history of the end of The Smiths:
Marr: Let's try a sitar on Sheila Take a BowMorrissey: Let's do a Cilla Black cover
Exeunt
― Alba, Thursday, 23 December 2010 09:21 (2 years ago) Permalink
Interesting: Janice Whaley covers the complete Smiths discography, 71 tracks, with only her voice (and ProTools) : http://janice.bandcamp.com/
― StanM, Friday, 24 December 2010 16:09 (2 years ago) Permalink
These unreleased versions are not so mind-blowing imo. There's nothing here better than the released version, except probably 'This Night Has Opened My Eyes' which sounds nice and clean, and possibly 'Frankly Mr Shankly' whose trumpet line is very pleasing. 'Death of A Disco Dancer' might be quite engaging too but I need to give it a while to bed in. Otherwise Morrissey's an erratic enough vocalist that the alternate takes make for an interesting listen, but there isn't really much new here.
Mostly I was left marvelling at how surprisingly flabby their early stuff could be - 'The Hand That Rocks The Cradle' meanders forever, and 'Reel Around The Fountain' has no business being six minutes long. I'm sure they run through 'Rusholme Ruffians' twice.
The two new instrumentals are terrific though, great to hear the band heads-down and going at it. And 'Heavy Track' keeps up a proud tradition whereby every indie track that's ever been described as 'like Led Zeppelin' in no way sounds like Led Zeppelin.
― Ismael Klata, Friday, 24 December 2010 18:06 (2 years ago) Permalink
I love the disgusted growl of JM's guitar on Paint a Vulgar Picture.
― Alba, Friday, 24 December 2010 18:50 (2 years ago) Permalink
'Reel Around The Fountain' has no business being six minutes long
using the 'repeat' button on my old Technics CD player, I made this song 600 minutes long
― I am a man and I use the typewriter method (rip van wanko), Friday, 24 December 2010 23:05 (2 years ago) Permalink
That's more like it.
― Alba, Saturday, 25 December 2010 00:19 (2 years ago) Permalink
updated!
― EZ Snappin, Monday, 27 December 2010 15:24 (2 years ago) Permalink
In re the recent bootleg -- the Smiths Recycle folks gave it the treatment, and got it in stereo:
http://thepowerofindependenttrucking.blogspot.com/2011/01/mastered-smiths-stereo-demos-outtakes.html
― Ned Raggett, Thursday, 13 January 2011 05:42 (2 years ago) Permalink
There's been a few updates of late.
― piscesx, Saturday, 12 February 2011 06:50 (2 years ago) Permalink
"Heaven Knows I'm Miserable Now" posted last weekend.
― skip, Tuesday, 8 March 2011 18:12 (2 years ago) Permalink
Going back a bit, I think Rollins hated the Smiths b/c he didn't want to admit to himself that they really did ROCK pretty damn hard. ANy decent live recording of "Queen is Dead" will bear that out
― Franklin_The_Turtle, Tuesday, 8 March 2011 19:58 (2 years ago) Permalink
god the title of this thread annoys the shit out of me
The Miracle of the SmithsThe Miracle of the SmithsThe Miracle of the SmithsThe Miracle of the SmithsThe Miracle of the SmithsThe Miracle of the SmithsThe Miracle of the Smiths
gaaaahhh must kill
― Damn this thread seems so....different without ilxor (ilxor), Tuesday, 8 March 2011 20:01 (2 years ago) Permalink
and i like the smiths btw
The Miracle of the Smiths: The Indie Tribute Album to the Smiths - ft. Belle & Sebastian, Sufjan Stevens, Beirut, Jens Lekman, the Magnetic Fields, Andrew Bird, of Montreal, Bon Iver & many more!
― Damn this thread seems so....different without ilxor (ilxor), Tuesday, 8 March 2011 20:02 (2 years ago) Permalink
like, can't you just picture that shit??? (sorry lol)
― Damn this thread seems so....different without ilxor (ilxor), Tuesday, 8 March 2011 20:03 (2 years ago) Permalink
Ease up on the caffeine.
― Gerald McBoing-Boing, Tuesday, 8 March 2011 20:11 (2 years ago) Permalink
More like The Miracle of Morrissey's Continued Popularity.
― Gerald McBoing-Boing, Tuesday, 8 March 2011 20:12 (2 years ago) Permalink
had a double iced coffee w/ extra espresso shot this morn :(
― Damn this thread seems so....different without ilxor (ilxor), Tuesday, 8 March 2011 20:21 (2 years ago) Permalink
I'm quite grateful for this effort, as well as the Joy Division one, but honestly my ears can't hear any sonic improvement. The really rare live/alt versions are fun but not critical. Still, it's a good excuse to listen to it all again.
― Gerald McBoing-Boing, Tuesday, 8 March 2011 20:35 (2 years ago) Permalink
"William" up, look look it's the italian how soon!!
― Mark G, Thursday, 10 March 2011 16:11 (2 years ago) Permalink
I do hear some improvements in the introductions. Once the full band gets going there isn't much difference though.
― skip, Thursday, 10 March 2011 16:13 (2 years ago) Permalink
FYI:http://www.morrissey-solo.com/content/141-Troy-Tate-sessions-straight-from-master-posted-on-smithstorrents.co.ukhttp://www.smithstorrents.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?p=18955
― StanM, Monday, 25 April 2011 08:23 (2 years ago) Permalink
lots of new updates and such.
― piscesx, Monday, 25 July 2011 05:48 (1 year ago) Permalink
Did something get removed? Those last two posts are a month old.
― brotherlovesdub, Monday, 25 July 2011 06:05 (1 year ago) Permalink
they weren't published when i checked the site a week or two ago..
― Who? Well, I've never heard of Mogwai. (electricsound), Monday, 25 July 2011 06:05 (1 year ago) Permalink
I think pisces was just bumping bcz it's been four months since anyone noted new posts. I have seen those posts before.
― Booger T. Jones (sic), Monday, 25 July 2011 06:31 (1 year ago) Permalink
Anybody going to fork out for the Rhino box set of remastered albums and singles?
http://pitchfork.com/news/43343-massive-smiths-box-set-on-the-way/
― Beating up the Ritz (DavidM), Thursday, 28 July 2011 23:02 (1 year ago) Permalink
if they're the same remasters as the recycle ones then i'd consider it, otherwise no way
― Who? Well, I've never heard of Mogwai. (electricsound), Thursday, 28 July 2011 23:27 (1 year ago) Permalink
reissue repackage repackage...
― koogs, Friday, 29 July 2011 09:00 (1 year ago) Permalink
hoping they please the press in Belgium too.
― Neil S, Friday, 29 July 2011 09:05 (1 year ago) Permalink
http://laughingsquid.com/lost-1992-press-video-for-the-smiths/
― Cuius regio, eius radicchio (Michael White), Wednesday, 17 August 2011 18:21 (1 year ago) Permalink
did they stop updating the blog in light of the official remasters coming out?
― piscesx, Monday, 12 September 2011 16:25 (1 year ago) Permalink
Comments in the last post say no.
― challopian rubes (sic), Monday, 12 September 2011 21:16 (1 year ago) Permalink
j marr on the radio just this very minute talking about the remasters. they've gone back to the master tapes and redone them (some needed baking but apparently they sound good). he also made it obvious he's not a fan of the loudness war and there won't be any of that.
sounds promising.
― koogs, Wednesday, 28 September 2011 13:00 (1 year ago) Permalink
Let's just hope the rest of the key members involved aren't fans of the loudness war either. Sadly Morrissey will probably someone crank everything to the red just out of spite.
― jon /via/ chi 2.0, Wednesday, 28 September 2011 19:33 (1 year ago) Permalink
Morrissey is not involved in the remasters at all.
― Badmotorfinger Debate Club (MFB), Wednesday, 28 September 2011 19:34 (1 year ago) Permalink
Didn't figure he would be, and thank god, was just being silly.
― jon /via/ chi 2.0, Wednesday, 28 September 2011 19:34 (1 year ago) Permalink
Is marr actually doing the remasters or just overseeing it? Because him actually doing them make me nervous
― the 500 gats of bartholomew thuggins (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Wednesday, 28 September 2011 19:57 (1 year ago) Permalink
says that he "supervised" the remastering, so he's probably got a team of pros handling it. Marr said of the reissues, which will be released on both CD and 12" vinyl, "I'm very happy that the remastered versions of The Smiths albums are finally coming out. I wanted to get them sounding right and remove any processing so that they now sound as they did when they were originally made. I'm pleased with the results."
― tylerw, Wednesday, 28 September 2011 20:00 (1 year ago) Permalink
My hearing just isn't good enough to benefit from the improved sound. And how silly is it that they're including "Louder Than Bombs" AND "World Won't Listen"?? So much overlap. Why not include a new disc of stuff that HASN'T been compiled?
Extra track and a tacky badge, indeed.
― Gerald McBoing-Boing, Wednesday, 28 September 2011 20:21 (1 year ago) Permalink
yeah that is odd. the smiths recycle thing has been fun for all the random edits/remixes/alternates. some of them are not the most amazing thing musically, but they're cool to hear.
― tylerw, Wednesday, 28 September 2011 20:23 (1 year ago) Permalink
only realised last night that these are already out (and reasonable at £30 for 8 cds). no pigs over battersea for the smiths reissues...
― koogs, Thursday, 29 September 2011 06:39 (1 year ago) Permalink
on Spotify too (all 106 tracks!).
― piscesx, Thursday, 29 September 2011 07:06 (1 year ago) Permalink
Really? Where? I couldn't find it.
― Pollabo Bryson (James Redd and the Blecchs), Thursday, 29 September 2011 18:13 (1 year ago) Permalink
Assuming that was a put-on
― Pollabo Bryson (James Redd and the Blecchs), Thursday, 29 September 2011 18:21 (1 year ago) Permalink
Shakespears Sister posted to smithsrecycle
― brotherlovesdub, Thursday, 29 September 2011 19:59 (1 year ago) Permalink
a put-on? heavens no! Smiths Complete box right here (only available in UK maybe?) http://open.spotify.com/album/30g571JKoxs8AnsgAViV2J
interestingly that's the whole 106 track super collector box too, not just the 8 album CD set, because Jeane is on there. although Wonderful Woman isn't. hm. anyway it's gratis.
― piscesx, Thursday, 29 September 2011 20:03 (1 year ago) Permalink
looks like it's UK only boooooo
― tylerw, Thursday, 29 September 2011 20:06 (1 year ago) Permalink
first post: Never thought about Alan Bennett and Moz being kindred. (I mostly know A.B. from a handful of his films and TV plays.)
― incredibly middlebrow (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 29 September 2011 20:09 (1 year ago) Permalink
The Smiths box drops in mid-October in the states.
― The Man With The Flavored Toothpick (C. Grisso/McCain), Thursday, 29 September 2011 20:24 (1 year ago) Permalink
October 18th to be exact
― The Man With The Flavored Toothpick (C. Grisso/McCain), Thursday, 29 September 2011 20:26 (1 year ago) Permalink
brilliant pics here: http://www.superdeluxeedition.com/picture-gallery/exclusive-the-smiths-complete-box-set-the-first-pictures/never seen such attention to detail on a remasters set; the multi-format box version going so far as to reproduce the original sleeve stickers that came on the initial pressings:
even the steve hoffman forum has given them a thumbs up. shame there's no 'extras' and some of the B sides are missing but hey.
― piscesx, Saturday, 1 October 2011 18:13 (1 year ago) Permalink
i don't understand the basis for the new smiths box-set. hasn't every shred of their material been released; is there any real reason for a new box-set?
― Daniel, Esq., Saturday, 1 October 2011 18:16 (1 year ago) Permalink
Really? Oh. It's for money. They are releasing a box set to make money.
― chromecassettes, Saturday, 1 October 2011 18:24 (1 year ago) Permalink
I'm happy they're doing it because the cds sound like ass when compared to original vinyl.
― EZ Snappin, Saturday, 1 October 2011 18:31 (1 year ago) Permalink
...whilst they still can. everything will be 0s and 1s in the cloud soon.
have just ordered the cds. 3rd time for some of them (and the last).
― koogs, Saturday, 1 October 2011 18:33 (1 year ago) Permalink
no different to The Beatles set really. the same in fact; shitty quality 80s CDs weren't cutting it any more. the CD box set is only £30 too, which for a fancy package of 8 CDs seems very reasonable indeed.
― piscesx, Saturday, 1 October 2011 19:32 (1 year ago) Permalink
a put-on? heavens no! Smiths Complete box right here (only available in UK maybe?) Yeah, most of it is grayed out over here except "Jeane" and a few others.
― So. Central Mayne (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 1 October 2011 19:36 (1 year ago) Permalink
it's a right pain in the arse this whole US/UK Spotify divide hoo ha.
― piscesx, Saturday, 1 October 2011 20:57 (1 year ago) Permalink
wow, you don't say? people do things for money. that's a fucking brilliant notion.
this makes sense. as much as i loved the smiths, tho, i can't imagine wanting the new set (unless there's worthwhile unreleased material on it).
― Daniel, Esq., Saturday, 1 October 2011 21:14 (1 year ago) Permalink
wow, you don't say? people do things for money. that's a fucking brilliant notion.You asked.
― chromecassettes, Saturday, 1 October 2011 21:27 (1 year ago) Permalink
― piscesx, Sunday, 2 October 2011 02:18 (1 year ago) Permalink
the packaging them together is a bit of a cheek, i think, especially with World Won't Listen and Louder Than Bombs. but at £30 i will excuse them
(new this mortal coil box containing 4cds is £106...)
― koogs, Sunday, 2 October 2011 15:57 (1 year ago) Permalink
(might be able to sort you out a copy of that Mortal Coil box if you'd like it, koogs)
― Stevie T, Sunday, 2 October 2011 16:01 (1 year ago) Permalink
(i'd like to see one, see what the fuss is about, but i don't feel the need to actually own a copy, thanks stevie. besides, i still have half those mary chain and all these smiths reissues to get through...)
― koogs, Sunday, 2 October 2011 17:16 (1 year ago) Permalink
The This Mortal Coil box is amazing. Been delayed for more than a year because of Ivo's insane attention to detail, I was told. All the CDs are facsimilies of those Japanese CDs that are themselves facsimiles of the original album sleeves and inner sleeves, down to the stupidly heavy card. All have those Japanese language slips round each individual sleeve.
On listening to the Smiths reissues, I didn't in all honesty hear the evidence for the claims that some reviewers made about the difference from the original records.
― Viva Brother Beyond (ithappens), Sunday, 2 October 2011 19:44 (1 year ago) Permalink
Johnny Marr sings "What difference does it make" now.
― Mark G, Monday, 3 October 2011 08:47 (1 year ago) Permalink
they arrived. nicely packaged, tiny recreations of the sleeves (and stickers). (what looks like the back of the box on the amazon pictures is just stuck on with a couple of sticky labels but is easily removed.)
but they are louder and more trebly. i'm not sure i like that. (ok, have only listened to Hatful so far, and only then on the laptop)
― koogs, Wednesday, 5 October 2011 19:27 (1 year ago) Permalink
what does that picture tell you?
― the pinefox, Thursday, 6 October 2011 23:33 (1 year ago) Permalink
btw I didn't really know you liked the Smiths.
― the pinefox, Thursday, 6 October 2011 23:36 (1 year ago) Permalink
it tells me that they're louder but it doesn't look brickwalled at all really imo. rhino vinyl released tQiD a awhile back and it sounds sublime
― epigram addict (outdoor_miner), Friday, 7 October 2011 00:10 (1 year ago) Permalink
well these sound amazing. warmer, more treble definitely; best remasters since The Beatles.
― piscesx, Sunday, 9 October 2011 23:52 (1 year ago) Permalink
I'll be happily surprised if they come close to the recently released Pink Floyd remasters. I think those are on par with (or maybe even slightly better than) The Beatles reissues.
― EZ Snappin, Monday, 10 October 2011 00:12 (1 year ago) Permalink
which ones EZ? the 'immersion' Dark Side tracks i've heard sound fantastic.
― piscesx, Monday, 10 October 2011 00:29 (1 year ago) Permalink
I bought the remasters of Dark Side, Animals and Meddle and they are all amazing. I've heard the same about the clarity and dynamism of The Wall and Wish You Were Here. I'd love to hear the Immersion set but I don't have that kind of cash.
― EZ Snappin, Monday, 10 October 2011 01:42 (1 year ago) Permalink
Meanwhile:
http://smithsrecycle.blogspot.com/2011/09/etaatb-09-rtt181-shakespeares-sister.html
― Mark G, Monday, 10 October 2011 09:47 (1 year ago) Permalink
Oh, am I on the Pink Floyd thread?
No I Am Not.
― Mark G, Monday, 10 October 2011 09:48 (1 year ago) Permalink
I think I'm going to have to wait for Christmas for these, but I'm excited.
― jon /via/ chi 2.0, Monday, 10 October 2011 13:07 (1 year ago) Permalink
Mike Joyce playing 2 hours of Smiths songs:http://www.eastvillageradio.com/content/content.php?id=2257
― john. a resident of chicago., Thursday, 13 October 2011 17:42 (1 year ago) Permalink
thanks for the link. listening now. his commentary is great.
― brotherlovesdub, Thursday, 13 October 2011 18:24 (1 year ago) Permalink
It's here:
John Lewis Christmas Advert 2011
― Alba, Friday, 11 November 2011 13:17 (1 year ago) Permalink
404 not found on that link, somehow
― koogs, Friday, 11 November 2011 13:37 (1 year ago) Permalink
That has got to be the best advert I have ever seen!...will stay with me for a long time. Very well done J.L
PATROLMAN2056 1 hour ago 7 thumbs up
― DavidM, Friday, 11 November 2011 18:36 (1 year ago) Permalink
Holy crap! That melted my Grinchy heart!
― Gerald McBoing-Boing, Friday, 11 November 2011 19:49 (1 year ago) Permalink
I totally thought he was getting the Smiths box set.
― Fastnbulbous, Friday, 11 November 2011 21:37 (1 year ago) Permalink
Ha. Me too.
― Miss Piggy and Frodo in Hull (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 11 November 2011 21:50 (1 year ago) Permalink
ugh
― jed_, Friday, 11 November 2011 23:45 (1 year ago) Permalink
bad
― conrad, Friday, 11 November 2011 23:51 (1 year ago) Permalink
would be so much better if it was the original. fuck you sensitive female slow cover version women.
but still, the enjoyment of angry indies being annoyed about this keeps on giving.
― Jamie_ATP, Friday, 11 November 2011 23:54 (1 year ago) Permalink
The horrible plinky cover version is the least of its crimes. I could even stand the shitty payoff, but the way it channels some kind of ghastly pastiche of every twee/innocent/nu-indie/mumblecore/shane meadows advert conceit into 90 creatively bereft seconds brakes my hart. Fuck's sake grossly overpaid ad agency, just *try* to do something original.
― that mustardless plate (Bill A), Saturday, 12 November 2011 00:05 (1 year ago) Permalink
i'm seriously surprised there haven't been any adverts with slow females covering anything from 69 love songs yet
― Jamie_ATP, Saturday, 12 November 2011 00:07 (1 year ago) Permalink
How long will it be before The Smiths become sufficiently retro and neutral that it would be OK for a firm like John Lewis to use the original in an ad? The people I know who do most of their Christmas shopping there (i.e. my mum and the like) still hate Morrissey: "Eh, I know you and you cannot sing" etc.
Still surprised that Morrissey/Marr agreed to this (and the This Charming Man intro earlier this year). Don't think they've ever explicitly said they wouldn't let their music be in ads, but I always thought that was implied. At the very least I would've expected Morrissey in his weird way to say no because JL sell leather coats/sofas and Waitrose sell meat.
― Eyeball Kicks, Saturday, 12 November 2011 00:43 (1 year ago) Permalink
Not understanding the hate here, maybe it's a UK thing where Morrissey's been overexposed. I quite liked that cover.
And, hey, Marr's gotta eat, given the blazing unsuccess of his solo album.
― Gerald McBoing-Boing, Saturday, 12 November 2011 03:10 (1 year ago) Permalink
oh i think he's probably doing alright
― jed_, Saturday, 12 November 2011 03:49 (1 year ago) Permalink
how can you believe that, he's only been a full-time touring-and-recording member of three or four internationally successful bands since that solo album
― ٩(̾●̮̮̃̾•̃̾)۶ (sic), Saturday, 12 November 2011 05:50 (1 year ago) Permalink
Marr might not be the draw he was 20 years ago but I'm sure he's living comfortably enough. As for Mike Joyce...
― The multi-talented F.R. David (Billy Dods), Saturday, 12 November 2011 10:55 (1 year ago) Permalink
Morrissey has apparently been bankrupt for the last four years so presumably needs the money. Also has to finance a daft libel action, atm, and they can get expensive.
― Mohombi Khush Hua (ShariVari), Saturday, 12 November 2011 11:07 (1 year ago) Permalink
Morrissey has apparently been bankrupt for the last four years
I think that's just in respect to his songwriting...
― Mark G, Monday, 14 November 2011 10:03 (1 year ago) Permalink
Didn’t cry at the advert.
The visuals are OK but the song doesn’t sit comfortably alongside them (since it’s not about Christmas or consumerism) and enough please-hit-me wispy cover versions please. Apparently John Lewis are planning a whole album of this muck for the season.
The ad would have been much better if Morrissey and Marr had turned up at the end as Santa and his helper. You decide who would play whom.
― Here he is with the classic "Poème Électronique." Good track (Marcello Carlin), Monday, 14 November 2011 10:53 (1 year ago) Permalink
singing "You just haven't earned it yet, Baby!"
― Mark G, Monday, 14 November 2011 10:57 (1 year ago) Permalink
"How Soon Is Noël"
― R. Stornoway (Tom D.), Monday, 14 November 2011 11:00 (1 year ago) Permalink
"I Started Something I Couldn't Finish"
... we've all experienced that at Xmas dinner, eh?
― R. Stornoway (Tom D.), Monday, 14 November 2011 11:01 (1 year ago) Permalink
"Still Ill"
... Boxingdayamirite?
― R. Stornoway (Tom D.), Monday, 14 November 2011 11:03 (1 year ago) Permalink
"Pretty Girls Make Gravies"
― Tim, Monday, 14 November 2011 11:05 (1 year ago) Permalink
"How Soon is Now" was used on a jeans advert YEARS ago, iirc
― bham, Monday, 14 November 2011 11:08 (1 year ago) Permalink
Yeah, and come-on you remember "This Charming Man" soundtracking some indie lad making a mixtape, for some product I forget.
― Mark G, Monday, 14 November 2011 11:24 (1 year ago) Permalink
Was that not John Lewis as well?
― ailsa, Monday, 14 November 2011 11:45 (1 year ago) Permalink
prob.
― Mark G, Monday, 14 November 2011 12:09 (1 year ago) Permalink
yes, this one
― koogs, Monday, 14 November 2011 12:10 (1 year ago) Permalink
xxxxpost "Paint a Vulgar Picture" (You could've said no if you'd wanted to...)
― Daniel Giraffe, Monday, 14 November 2011 12:54 (1 year ago) Permalink
shoplifters of the world unite.
― jed_, Monday, 14 November 2011 13:37 (1 year ago) Permalink
"Hang the tinsel, hang the tinsel/Hang the tinsel, hang the tinsel/Hang the tinsel hang the tinsel hang the tinsel" etc.
― Race Against Rockism (Myonga Vön Bontee), Tuesday, 15 November 2011 18:31 (1 year ago) Permalink
"There have been better bands than the Smiths"
outrageous.
OUTRAGEOUS
― Daniel, Esq., Friday, 18 November 2011 12:07 (1 year ago) Permalink
" There have been better bands than the Smiths, but there has never been a more perfect band, in the sense of having a distinct, deliberate, powerful aesthetic shaped by the tensions of collaboration, combined with the ability to articulate that aesthetic."
Context, dude!
― Mark G, Friday, 18 November 2011 12:10 (1 year ago) Permalink
hm. can't get past outrageousness of the first part.
― Daniel, Esq., Friday, 18 November 2011 12:14 (1 year ago) Permalink
― Race Against Rockism (Myonga Vön Bontee), Tuesday, November 15, 2011 6:31 PM (3 days ago)
^ May never get this out of my head.
― john. a resident of chicago., Friday, 18 November 2011 13:28 (1 year ago) Permalink
That's a really good review by Douglas Wolk. I've always liked his reviews of James Brown's singles volumes for P4k and his review of The Fall's Peel Sessions (for Believer) was great.
Kind of shocked that they didn't include 'Jeane' in the complete box set. That's insane.
― righteousmaelstrom, Friday, 18 November 2011 18:10 (1 year ago) Permalink
ha, it really is. wonder if there's some kinda rarities comp in the works?
― tylerw, Friday, 18 November 2011 18:15 (1 year ago) Permalink
less insane to leave shit out than to include some stuff twice and not remaster all of it
― Θ ̨Θƪ (sic), Friday, 18 November 2011 22:41 (1 year ago) Permalink
3 new entries on tacky badge up btw
― tubbs farkas (electricsound), Saturday, 19 November 2011 00:30 (1 year ago) Permalink
mostly on account of that blog i think the smiths are my most listened to band this year. that single version of "the boy with the thorn in his side" (prolly my fave tune of theirs) is flippin' brilliant
― epigram addict (outdoor_miner), Saturday, 19 November 2011 02:01 (1 year ago) Permalink
8.1? get tae fuck.
― piscesx, Saturday, 19 November 2011 07:22 (1 year ago) Permalink
yeah, the rating is a joke. never trust ratings, esp. from s&p and pitchfork. the article is good though.
― alex in mainhattan, Saturday, 19 November 2011 08:34 (1 year ago) Permalink
i'm finding the drums and other percussive elements on some tracks of these remasters a little hard to take. far too foregrounded for my taste, i think i'll stick with my old versions.
― jed_, Saturday, 19 November 2011 17:28 (1 year ago) Permalink
many updates on the smiths 'extra track and a tacky badge' blog since we last revived this http://smithsrecycle.blogspot.com/they've still got a fair few singles to go mind..
― piscesx, Tuesday, 6 March 2012 04:19 (1 year ago) Permalink
more updates.
― EZ Snappin, Monday, 12 March 2012 00:41 (1 year ago) Permalink
yep!
these make a great listen as a whole
― Flat Of NAGLs (sleeve), Monday, 12 March 2012 02:45 (1 year ago) Permalink
Xpost*2 - It looks to me they only have one single left to do.
― Mark G, Monday, 12 March 2012 09:35 (1 year ago) Permalink
well, that makes six at the time pisces said it.
― Θ ̨Θƪ (sic), Monday, 12 March 2012 11:56 (1 year ago) Permalink
Oh right.
They've been 'becalmed' for ages, fair enough.
― Mark G, Monday, 12 March 2012 12:24 (1 year ago) Permalink
http://www.vice.com/read/chunklet-to-go-go-the-smiths
― dandydonweiner, Tuesday, 13 March 2012 00:54 (1 year ago) Permalink
terrible piece
― Θ ̨Θƪ (sic), Tuesday, 13 March 2012 01:21 (1 year ago) Permalink
The last single was posted earlier, the next recycled project is REM! Excited for that one!
― nate woolls, Tuesday, 13 March 2012 17:03 (1 year ago) Permalink
The Nitzer Ebb singles one sounds cool too.
― EZ Snappin, Tuesday, 13 March 2012 17:06 (1 year ago) Permalink
hmmmhttp://www.music-news.com/shownews.asp?H=The-Smiths-to-reform&nItemID=51298
― good luck in your pyramid (Neil S), Thursday, 26 April 2012 12:31 (1 year ago) Permalink
crisply denied by Marr
― World Congress of Itch (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 26 April 2012 16:49 (1 year ago) Permalink
― tylerw, Thursday, 26 April 2012 16:52 (1 year ago) Permalink
It is never going to happen.
― Respectfully, Tyrese Gibson (Nicole), Thursday, 26 April 2012 17:41 (1 year ago) Permalink
seems like the best anyone could hope for is a marr/morrissey collab sometime in the future. but even that is unlikely, I think.
― tylerw, Thursday, 26 April 2012 17:50 (1 year ago) Permalink
in the long run all bands reunite one day...
in the berlin program magazine tip there was a page announcing concerts of bands where i didn't even know that they still had living members. like bad company, mötley crüe, beach boys, blue öyster cult, lynyrd skynyrd, bachman turner overdrive. i was also surprised to hear that roger chapman and james taylor still have to tour...
― alex in mainhattan, Saturday, 28 April 2012 17:49 (1 year ago) Permalink
But... The Smiths reunion with a Morrissey hologram! $$$$ £££ amirite?
― StanM, Saturday, 28 April 2012 18:07 (1 year ago) Permalink
Yeah that Beatles tour was something.
― Ned Raggett, Saturday, 28 April 2012 20:09 (1 year ago) Permalink
the beatles would have toured if only there hadn't been this crazy psychopath...
― alex in mainhattan, Saturday, 28 April 2012 21:30 (1 year ago) Permalink
Ringo?
― StanM, Saturday, 28 April 2012 21:35 (1 year ago) Permalink
the one that shot john lennon, i meant.
― alex in mainhattan, Saturday, 28 April 2012 21:40 (1 year ago) Permalink
I know, sorry :-(
― StanM, Saturday, 28 April 2012 21:46 (1 year ago) Permalink
i know that you knew, so that's ok ;-)
― alex in mainhattan, Saturday, 28 April 2012 21:54 (1 year ago) Permalink
I appreciate the bands that reunite every once in a while but don't tour, like zep.
Ccr hasn't reunited yet, but could. Same with husker du, but they're far less likely than Smiths.
― Josh in Chicago, Saturday, 28 April 2012 22:48 (1 year ago) Permalink
still baffled that the so called Complete box set is missing not only 5 of the original non album single tracks but that there is STILL after 3 decades no complete BBC/ Peel session stuff available. it's the 21st century, The Smiths are regarded as the 2nd best UK band since The Beatles yet there's a Smiths *Peel session* of How Soon Is Now that isn't on CD. i mean.. words fail me.
― piscesx, Saturday, 28 April 2012 23:04 (1 year ago) Permalink
What are the 5 tracks?
― Gerald McBoing-Boing, Sunday, 29 April 2012 01:55 (1 year ago) Permalink
Wonderful Woman Work Is A Four Letter WordJeanneI Keep Mine HiddenThe Draize Train
plus if one wanted a *complete* catalogue in the box you really ought to have the Kervorkian 'New York Mix' of This Charming Man, the live James cover of What's The World (from the B side of the CD EP of I Started Something..) and the alt version of Accept Yourself.
― piscesx, Sunday, 29 April 2012 07:24 (1 year ago) Permalink
"Jeane", "Wonderful Woman", and the NY "This Charming Man" are on the deluxe The Sound Of The Smiths, along with "You Just Haven't Earned It Yet, Baby" at its original speed.
― Leslie Mann: Boner Machine (C. Grisso/McCain), Sunday, 29 April 2012 07:45 (1 year ago) Permalink
indeed. remastered too. makes the exclusion even more baffling.
― piscesx, Sunday, 29 April 2012 09:02 (1 year ago) Permalink
the only things I possibly do not know from this are
alt 'accept yourself'Peel 'how soon is now?' - I don't think I had any idea that existed.
but I have feeling there might be one or two other Peel tracks?
once you start including live tracks, well how aboutthe very early 'handsome devil'the late 'some girls are bigger than others' with alt lyricsthe Oxford Road Show tracks from 'that joke'
and what was it they contributed to that NME tape in 1985 ... was it just a live take of 'nowhere fast' or something?
― the pinefox, Sunday, 29 April 2012 09:32 (1 year ago) Permalink
According to Discogs they didn't contribute to an NME tape but a live version of 'What She Said ' featured on a 7" EP which was given away with poll winners issue.
― fun loving and xtremely tolrant (Billy Dods), Sunday, 29 April 2012 09:47 (1 year ago) Permalink
The Peel session versions of London and Half A Person are better than the studio versions, and (as far as I know) are unreleased.
― Ian Edmond, Sunday, 29 April 2012 11:23 (1 year ago) Permalink
yeah the Peel London *flattens* the original and that's unreleased. the Nowhere Fast BBC sesh is also killerthere's a pretty neat summing up of all the Jensen/ Peel sessions, which ones were released and the differences between them on the Hatful.. Wikihttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatful_of_Hollow
there was also this if we're getting *mega* completist re sessions; the Sandie Shaw BBC sesh of Jeanne and I Don't Owe You Anythng which i don't even think i've ever heardhttp://www.cduniverse.com/search/xx/music/pid/1408587/a/Cool+About+You%3A+Bbc+Sessions.htmamazing that somehow *that* is on CD and some Smiths ones aren't.
― piscesx, Sunday, 29 April 2012 12:49 (1 year ago) Permalink
Has anyone ever found anything much to redeem 'Never Nad No-One Ever'?
― the pinefox, Tuesday, 15 May 2012 13:17 (1 year ago) Permalink
Dods, yes, I have that 7-inch - it also has a U2 'Wire' remix
― the pinefox, Tuesday, 15 May 2012 13:18 (1 year ago) Permalink
It's best to think of it as a parody of a Smiths song. xp
― Respectfully, Tyrese Gibson (Nicole), Tuesday, 15 May 2012 13:28 (1 year ago) Permalink
it's a highly enjoyable prime slab of desperate melodrama served with just a hint of stalkery horseradish
― Roberto Spiralli, Tuesday, 15 May 2012 13:36 (1 year ago) Permalink
Yeah, but sequenced right after the similarly paced (and far superior) "I Know It's Over," it really stops that album dead in its tracks.
― buh, Tuesday, 15 May 2012 13:55 (1 year ago) Permalink
it's starts again when you flip it over ;)
although i don't like cemetry gates much either. actually considering what a formative record this was for me there are rather a lot of songs that i dislike.
― jed_, Tuesday, 15 May 2012 14:19 (1 year ago) Permalink
Never Had No One Ever is not really a song, it's basically a vamp. Its position immediately after I Know It's Over is usually considered a sequencing mistake, but I think it's probably deliberate - the similarity of keys and tempos mean I hear it as I Know It's Over's looser, offhand coda. In this way, it has the same function as the similarly paced (and similarly placed) ending to Death of a Disco Dancer on Strangeways. I enjoy myself listening to it, but I am easily pleased by this kind of thing (I could listen to someone going between Am and Dm all day).
While I'm here, I want to mention another good Smiths site that I haven't seen mentioned here; Smiths on Guitar. Here is the page for Never Had No One Ever. For some songs, the site has little more than the chords scanned from the sheet music, but for others it has some fascinating videos and quotes.
― Eyeball Kicks, Wednesday, 16 May 2012 08:53 (1 year ago) Permalink
reunion is GO! .. allegedly.
first heard this from a pretty reliable source some months back, raised a quizzical eyebrow. seems like it could be on the cards after all (no Mike Joyce though).
― piscesx, Monday, 1 October 2012 15:21 (7 months ago) Permalink
hmmm...
There was a Rockpalast show broadcast on SkyArts recently but I watched skinny young ,orrissey dancing like a fawn in front of his admiring audience and thought to myself, he's not that guy anymore.
Johnny is still Johnny, sure.
but.
― Mark G, Monday, 1 October 2012 17:34 (7 months ago) Permalink
no mike joyce no creditbility
― gesange der yuengling (crüt), Monday, 1 October 2012 17:43 (7 months ago) Permalink
here it says yes joyce, no rourkehttp://www.digitalspy.com/music/news/a409472/the-smiths-reunion-new-rumors-emerge-of-glastonbury-2013-comeback.html
― making plans for nyquil (outdoor_miner), Monday, 1 October 2012 19:17 (7 months ago) Permalink
54321 til morrissey denies all this?
― tylerw, Monday, 1 October 2012 19:19 (7 months ago) Permalink
really hope they don't do it
― farte blanche (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Monday, 1 October 2012 19:48 (7 months ago) Permalink
I hope not either. I don't like the idea of reunions, especially this one because it is solely motivated by money.
― controversial cabaret roommate (Nicole), Monday, 1 October 2012 19:57 (7 months ago) Permalink
feel like if morrissey was actually desperate for $$$$ he'd do a "morrissey sings the smiths" tour w/o any of them before he'd do a reunion. could be wrong!
― tylerw, Monday, 1 October 2012 20:02 (7 months ago) Permalink
funny that it is like the holy grail of reunions. is anyone offering a bazillion dollars to talking heads to reunite?
― tylerw, Monday, 1 October 2012 20:03 (7 months ago) Permalink
i don't see how morrissey could possibly be hurting for money though?
― farte blanche (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Monday, 1 October 2012 20:06 (7 months ago) Permalink
if the smiths reunite i would sell my firstborn child to go see the show. not even joking
― heiswagger (rennavate), Monday, 1 October 2012 20:11 (7 months ago) Permalink
xp i dunno, maybe he invested heavy in some really sketchy vegan smoothie stands and lost it all?
― tylerw, Monday, 1 October 2012 20:17 (7 months ago) Permalink
"leafy, succulents and gruel"
― goole, Monday, 1 October 2012 20:38 (7 months ago) Permalink
(i got the quote wrong! shit)
― goole, Monday, 1 October 2012 20:39 (7 months ago) Permalink
There's been so much animosity on all sides I don't really see a good reason for them to reunite aside from money. Morrissey & Marr had always been vehement against the idea of a reunion until now. I could be wrong, but I don't understand the sudden change of heart.
― controversial cabaret roommate (Nicole), Monday, 1 October 2012 20:47 (7 months ago) Permalink
The Stone Roses were at each other's throats for years prior so i guess it could mean they could still.. forgive and forget. although finding it hard to imagine a Smiths-y equivalent of this photo
― piscesx, Monday, 1 October 2012 21:05 (7 months ago) Permalink
Isn't/Wasn't the Roses tour kind of a clusterfuck, though?
― Johnny Fever, Monday, 1 October 2012 21:06 (7 months ago) Permalink
After a reunion by The Police, I'm not ruling anything out. However, I don't see what possible good could come of a Smiths reunion either for the band themselves or the fans.
― Johnny Fever, Monday, 1 October 2012 21:07 (7 months ago) Permalink
something about the smiths still feels special because they never did a reunion. i'd hate for them to muck up the purity of their brief almost-perfect career just because morrissey and marr decide they can tolerate each other long enough to make a few extra bucks.
― (The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Monday, 1 October 2012 21:11 (7 months ago) Permalink
I wouldn't want them to reunite because the last thing they did before they broke up sucks super hard and directly informed the direction Morrissey went with his solo career; no one wants to here Strangeways-ified versions of TQID songs
― set me on fire RAAAAH (DJP), Monday, 1 October 2012 21:15 (7 months ago) Permalink
mm i'd wager Pink Floyd doing it means anyone can, although Moz's "The Smiths will end in murder" soundbite from around the mid 00's always kinda raised the bar for hateful 'it won't happen' band quotes.
interestingly the final time Joyce and Rourke played with Moz (at the one-off Wolves Civic Hall gig in 88) they were suing him *already*.
― piscesx, Monday, 1 October 2012 21:18 (7 months ago) Permalink
'strangeways' is amazing! their second-best after 'TQID.'
― (The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Monday, 1 October 2012 21:18 (7 months ago) Permalink
no it isnt
― Algerian Goalkeeper, Monday, 1 October 2012 21:22 (7 months ago) Permalink
Hasn't Marr been getting less and less interesting since the first electronic album though? I'd be more worried about them thrashing through stuff that was never meant to be thrashed; turning every song into 'London'.
― Ismael Klata, Monday, 1 October 2012 21:22 (7 months ago) Permalink
Yeah, nothing I've heard by Marr post-Smiths even resembles Smiths-era Marr. Even if he just got up there and accompanied Morrissey Boz Boorer-style, it wouldn't be as good as Boz.
― Johnny Fever, Monday, 1 October 2012 21:25 (7 months ago) Permalink
actually if they "London"-ified everything I'd be interested but I assume they'd actually "Girlfriend In A Coma"-fy everything
― set me on fire RAAAAH (DJP), Monday, 1 October 2012 21:28 (7 months ago) Permalink
Boz Boorer has the best name
― Ismael Klata, Monday, 1 October 2012 21:28 (7 months ago) Permalink
i'll never understand ppl hating on strageways. it's good!
― goole, Monday, 1 October 2012 21:32 (7 months ago) Permalink
I was about to say I feel like I've been arguing with DJP for 10 years about the merits of Strangeways, but then I remembered that's because I have.
― Alba, Monday, 1 October 2012 21:34 (7 months ago) Permalink
strangeways is incredible wtffff also admittedly it's my least favorite smiths record. still a classic tho
― heiswagger (rennavate), Monday, 1 October 2012 21:34 (7 months ago) Permalink
Oh jeez, what if they write some new stuff?
― Ismael Klata, Monday, 1 October 2012 21:35 (7 months ago) Permalink
lol Alba
― set me on fire RAAAAH (DJP), Monday, 1 October 2012 21:35 (7 months ago) Permalink
i don't consider it the smiths w/o rourke, his bass playing was crucial to the band!!
― farte blanche (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Monday, 1 October 2012 21:46 (7 months ago) Permalink
I hope they reunite to play "Some Girls Are Bigger Than Others" then promptly leave the stage.
― the ones that I'm near most: fellow outcasts and ilxors (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 1 October 2012 21:50 (7 months ago) Permalink
i'd say that 'girlfriend in a coma' is one of their best singles but i fear the inevitable 'no it isnt' response
― (The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Monday, 1 October 2012 21:56 (7 months ago) Permalink
hating Strangeways is maybe DJPs most befuddling opinion, at least for me
― stop swearing and start windmilling (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 1 October 2012 21:58 (7 months ago) Permalink
Maybe they'll get Flea to dep?
― Pat Ast vs Jean Arp (MaresNest), Monday, 1 October 2012 22:04 (7 months ago) Permalink
lord probably just pisses me off...a band is a band!
― farte blanche (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Monday, 1 October 2012 22:13 (7 months ago) Permalink
Why would it 'not be Rourke'?
I can understand why it might 'not be Joyce'...
Anyways, at some point they are going to get so bored with denying rumours that they will stop doing it, then it'll be all 'ooh it's imminent' sigh..
― Mark G, Monday, 1 October 2012 22:57 (7 months ago) Permalink
hope this doesn't happen.
also rourke and joyce are one of the best ever rock rhythm sections and it would be megashit if they weren't both involved.
― Jamie_ATP, Monday, 1 October 2012 22:59 (7 months ago) Permalink
hating Strangeways "Domino Dancing" is maybe DJPs most befuddling opinion, at least for me
― the ones that I'm near most: fellow outcasts and ilxors (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 1 October 2012 23:05 (7 months ago) Permalink
Hasn't Marr been getting less and less interesting since the first electronic album though
you mad, Dusk was after Electronic
Of course this is a terrible idea though
― ┐(´ー｀)┌ (sic), Monday, 1 October 2012 23:07 (7 months ago) Permalink
the ways of DJP are strange
― (The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Monday, 1 October 2012 23:08 (7 months ago) Permalink
?? dan loves domino dancing! he always says its the piper at the gates of dawn of the pet shop boys
― farte blanche (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Monday, 1 October 2012 23:08 (7 months ago) Permalink
The problem isn't so much that they'll thrash through songs or Strangeways-ify them so much as they will play them exactly as they were. As a young Smiths fanatic, I heard enough bootlegs to know that the bootlegs weren't worth hearing: the songs were played professionally and identically every time, wherever they were (the only variation came with the freedom Marr got with the inclusion of Craig Gannon, who I guess will not be invited). That said, this would be the only reunion I'd pay to see (while knowing I was getting fleeced).
― Eyeball Kicks, Monday, 1 October 2012 23:40 (7 months ago) Permalink
i was wondering why the Smiths thread was so busy today. i hope this doesn't happen as i have already seen the Smiths twice before, selfish i know.
― Bee OK, Tuesday, 2 October 2012 05:01 (7 months ago) Permalink
i really don't care if they do this or not. we already know they're civil enough to plausibly pull the big cash grab, and none are above hawking the smiths songbook when they perform in their own combos. i love a lot of smiths stuff, but not romantically enough that mozz doing "there's a light" at the end of a show with marr would be sadder for me than mozz doing "there's a light" at the end of a show with anyone else. if anything i approve of morrissey not being able to perform new originals between smiths numbers.
― da croupier, Tuesday, 2 October 2012 05:14 (7 months ago) Permalink
Not happening, apparently.
― daavid, Tuesday, 2 October 2012 05:20 (7 months ago) Permalink
breaking news from 1991 there
― ┐(´ー｀)┌ (sic), Tuesday, 2 October 2012 06:01 (7 months ago) Permalink
it's dated 1-oct-2012 so heyz.
― Mark G, Tuesday, 2 October 2012 06:04 (7 months ago) Permalink
I mean it's been no more likely now than at any time since the court case
― ┐(´ー｀)┌ (sic), Tuesday, 2 October 2012 06:10 (7 months ago) Permalink
It can't be for the money, La Mozzer has sold out both his Sydney shows in a couple of days. And tickets were over $100!!
― Don't Go Home With Your Hadron Collider (King Boy Pato), Tuesday, 2 October 2012 10:32 (7 months ago) Permalink
That's the thing, if he's making a fortune singing smiths songs now why bother inviting anyone on stage who thinks their opinion matters?
― da croupier, Tuesday, 2 October 2012 13:07 (7 months ago) Permalink
funny that i heard this whole rumour story first on Stuart Maconie's show on bbc 6 this week, he wrote what is still still one of my fave quotes about them in 1993;
"It must be funny being U2. Imagine. You're the world's biggest group. Your every move receives the full glare of popular scrutiny, your every utterance is scanned for meaning and import, you can sell-out concerts across the globe, get world leaders on the phone and have million queue to buy your records. And yet in your heart of hearts you know that you weren't a patch on The Smiths. And this doesn't only apply to U2. It goes for Guns 'N' Roses, Nirvana, Bruce Springsteen and every other colossus of modern rock. Each in their own way have good things to offer but, let's be serious, they weren't The Smiths, were they?"
― piscesx, Tuesday, 2 October 2012 15:43 (7 months ago) Permalink
I like that quote too, but at the same time it makes me squirm a little in the same way that the title of this thread does. I don't believe that in the hearts of Axl, Bruce or even Bono there has even been trace of regret that they weren't the Smiths.
― Eyeball Kicks, Tuesday, 2 October 2012 15:48 (7 months ago) Permalink
I'd've agreed with it, once
― Ismael Klata, Tuesday, 2 October 2012 17:06 (7 months ago) Permalink
maybe Bono, wrt Ian Mac
― Mark G, Tuesday, 2 October 2012 18:28 (7 months ago) Permalink
I don't really get what people think they'd see or experience that's more than the sum of Morrissey singing Smiths songs (as he's done over the past decade or more), plus Johnny Marr playing the songs in his sleep, looking up and smiling every few songs. Crowd cheers as if it's a moment. The whole live Smiths thing once relied on the nervous energy of those two secretly digging each other musically and stylistically, pleased to be friends...
Then again, I feel that way about all reunions. Pixies the worst example. I find the whole authenticity thing for audiences - *these* are the people in the flesh that once made this music - a bit depressing vis a vis people (young or old) that really want to be on stage together, making new music, liking each other, having fun, no heavy history hanging over it all...
― paulhw, Tuesday, 2 October 2012 23:42 (7 months ago) Permalink
Amen.
― Alba, Tuesday, 2 October 2012 23:59 (7 months ago) Permalink
Craig Gannon switches his mobile phone alert back to "silent"
― Elvis Telecom, Wednesday, 3 October 2012 00:08 (7 months ago) Permalink
Craig Cannon rues paying £10 top-up mobile phone credit.
― Don't Go Home With Your Hadron Collider (King Boy Pato), Wednesday, 3 October 2012 09:59 (7 months ago) Permalink
If anyone is actually interested, this is what Craig Gannon's up to nowadays.
― Eyeball Kicks, Wednesday, 3 October 2012 10:06 (7 months ago) Permalink
http://oticons.com/roster/92-craig-gannon
― koogs, Wednesday, 3 October 2012 10:08 (7 months ago) Permalink
he was known as 'the 5th Smith'
Selling himself a bit short there!
Also, he looks like Luis Suarez.
― Ismael Klata, Wednesday, 3 October 2012 10:43 (7 months ago) Permalink
New Smiths demo tape unearthed and online
― the pinefox, Monday, 18 March 2013 19:23 (2 months ago) Permalink
i have had major smiths fever the last few weeks, brought upon by snagging nice copies of the S/T and Louder Than Bombs LPs. looking forward to going back through this thread and understanding the miracle a little better.
― ( ( ( ( ( ( ( (Z S), Monday, 18 March 2013 19:27 (2 months ago) Permalink
oh man, a vintage nabisco OTM within one post of the OP, this is great
(I should have said 'rehearsal tape', not demo, I think)
― the pinefox, Monday, 18 March 2013 19:29 (2 months ago) Permalink
did you post a link there, pinefox? i can't see it, maybe because i'm in germany where 90% of music on youtube is blocked?
― it's the distortion, stupid! (alex in mainhattan), Monday, 18 March 2013 21:04 (2 months ago) Permalink
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=39qb3Q5mTmk
― Eyeball Kicks, Monday, 18 March 2013 21:10 (2 months ago) Permalink
i have had major smiths fever the last few weeks, brought upon by snagging nice copies of the S/T and Louder Than Bombs LPs
this pretty much describes my week as well!
― sleeve, Monday, 18 March 2013 21:34 (2 months ago) Permalink
thanks, nice rehearsal tape which beams me back almost 30 years. i think i heard them first in 1986. this sounds pretty mellow compared to the hatful of hollow versions. in may 1983 i had just started my military service. does morrissey sing reel around the mountain there? that's a very nice version of it, lovely guitar.
― it's the distortion, stupid! (alex in mainhattan), Monday, 18 March 2013 21:56 (2 months ago) Permalink
I think what made The Smiths so unique more than anything, was Morrissey's voice, how he had such a melodramatic way of singing and at times almost sounded like an opera singer which was pretty unusual in mid 80s Indie. That, and his unique style of lyric writing.
That said, Johnny Marr was a top guitarist. Maybe not the most original, as mentioned he wasn't the first to do that whole jangly style, but he still wrote some pretty damn memorable riffs, and some which are very intricate. There's a video somewhere of James Dean Bradfield from the Manics, a very skilled guitarist himself, attempting to play This Charming Man and getting frustrated over constantly fucking it up.
― Slash N Burn, Monday, 18 March 2013 22:42 (2 months ago) Permalink
at times almost sounded like an opera singer
lol, what operatic tradition is this?
― Heyman (crüt), Monday, 18 March 2013 22:44 (2 months ago) Permalink
<I>lol, what operatic tradition is this?</I>
When I first heard The Smiths at the age of thirteen the first thought that came to mind was that "this guy sounds like an opera singer." I dunno, maybe it's something that's stuck with me since.
That said, when I heard the singer's name was Morrissey I first thought that it was Neil Morrissey of Bob The Builder and Men Behaving Badly fame.
― Slash N Burn, Monday, 18 March 2013 22:49 (2 months ago) Permalink
on the rehearsal tape he is less of an opera singer, less histrionic than on the albums i find but he uses his falsetto a lot.
― it's the distortion, stupid! (alex in mainhattan), Monday, 18 March 2013 22:58 (2 months ago) Permalink
C'mon he's Rocky from Boon
― OutdoorFish, Tuesday, 19 March 2013 01:18 (2 months ago) Permalink
has morrissey ever talked about the singers who influenced him? i can't think of a single male vocalist who really sounds much like him.
― (The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Tuesday, 19 March 2013 01:29 (2 months ago) Permalink
I always used to think there are male vocalists and there is Morrissey
― OutdoorFish, Tuesday, 19 March 2013 01:36 (2 months ago) Permalink
I get proto-Morrissey vibes from Billy Fury:
― Heyman (crüt), Tuesday, 19 March 2013 01:41 (2 months ago) Permalink
Yeah he loves Billy Fury
― OutdoorFish, Tuesday, 19 March 2013 01:44 (2 months ago) Permalink
starting in on Fletcher's "There is a Light That Never Goes Out"
― four Marxes plus four Obamas plus four Bin Ladens (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 1 April 2013 17:37 (1 month ago) Permalink
I see Morrissey is due to appear on a documentary about cups of tea, interviewed by Victoria Wood.
― djh, Sunday, 7 April 2013 18:07 (1 month ago) Permalink
from a great post by dr. c 12 years ago:
By all accounts Morrissey's words would often appear in different places in the arrangement to where Marr had expected (verses became middle 8's, or Moz would sing across a transition...etc). This may account for the way that many Smiths songs don't have a normal structure or easily identifiable chorus, especially the earlier material. This lack of concern for (or lack of knowledge of..) conventional forms (on the part of Morrissey) helped a great deal to set them apart from the rest.
if i'm not mistaken this is very similar to how things worked, and/or didn't work, between michael stipe and peter buck.
― fact checking cuz, Sunday, 7 April 2013 19:43 (1 month ago) Permalink
That'd explain how "Call me when you try to wake her up" fits into 4 beats..
― Mark G, Tuesday, 9 April 2013 09:38 (1 month ago) Permalink
I must confess I was disappointed by his Thatcher quote. He must have spent half a life time preparing for that moment and it just wasn't as powerful as it needed to be.
― djh, Tuesday, 9 April 2013 20:46 (1 month ago) Permalink
The widely reported quote was apparently cobbled together by the press from a recent interview. Here is his actual statement (djh's point still stands):
The difficulty with giving a comment on Margaret Thatcher's death to the British tabloids is that, no matter how calmly and measuredly you speak, the comment must be reported as an "outburst" or an "explosive attack" if your view is not pro-establishment. If you reference "the Malvinas", it will be switched to "the Falklands", and your "Thatcher" will be softened to a "Maggie." This is generally how things are structured in a non-democratic society. Thatcher's name must be protected not because of all the wrong that she had done, but because the people around her allowed her to do it, and therefore any criticism of Thatcher throws a dangerously absurd light on the entire machinery of British politics. Thatcher was not a strong or formidable leader. She simply did not give a shit about people, and this coarseness has been neatly transformed into bravery by the British press who are attempting to re-write history in order to protect patriotism. As a result, any opposing view is stifled or ridiculed, whereas we must all endure the obligatory praise for Thatcher from David Cameron without any suggestion from the BBC that his praise just might be an outburst of pro-Thatcher extremism from someone whose praise might possibly protect his own current interests. The fact that Thatcher ignited the British public into street-riots, violent demonstrations and a social disorder previously unseen in British history is completely ignored by David Cameron in 2013. In truth, of course, no British politician has ever been more despised by the British people than Margaret Thatcher. Thatcher's funeral on Wednesday will be heavily policed for fear that the British tax-payer will want to finally express their view of Thatcher. They are certain to be tear-gassed out of sight by the police.
United Kingdom? Syria? China? What's the difference?
Morrissey9 April 2013
― Eyeball Kicks, Tuesday, 9 April 2013 22:22 (1 month ago) Permalink
the new smiths book is fantastic, loving it so far
― ums (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Tuesday, 9 April 2013 22:26 (1 month ago) Permalink
funny how the original 'outraged' interview quote is more OTM and less insane than his sober, considered quote!
― (The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Tuesday, 9 April 2013 22:28 (1 month ago) Permalink
tho tbh even most of that quote isn't really wrong, except for 'unseen in british history' and 'syria, china.'
― (The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Tuesday, 9 April 2013 22:29 (1 month ago) Permalink
yeah I'm digging it, it has made me notice all sorts of details in the songs that I had previously glossed over or never bothered to dissect (ie, anything referencing Manchester geography lol)
― four Marxes plus four Obamas plus four Bin Ladens (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 9 April 2013 22:37 (1 month ago) Permalink
You guys are talking about A Light That Never Goes Out right? What about the book called Songs That Saved Your Life?
― What About The Half That's Never Been POLLed (James Redd and the Blecchs), Tuesday, 9 April 2013 22:53 (1 month ago) Permalink
yes, the former. I dunno that latter.
― four Marxes plus four Obamas plus four Bin Ladens (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 9 April 2013 22:57 (1 month ago) Permalink
Still gotta read my copy of that guy's All Hopped Up And Ready To Go.
― What About The Half That's Never Been POLLed (James Redd and the Blecchs), Tuesday, 9 April 2013 22:59 (1 month ago) Permalink
yeah light that never goes out!
so many cool details in the early days, johnny marr liked tom petty and rory gallagher! the smiths 4th gig was opening for richard hell & the voidoids!
― ums (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Tuesday, 9 April 2013 23:10 (1 month ago) Permalink
first gig was the same night as a WS Burroughs reading at the Hacienda etc
― four Marxes plus four Obamas plus four Bin Ladens (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 9 April 2013 23:12 (1 month ago) Permalink
songs that saved your life is the one that's modeled on ian macdonald's beatles book, right? would love to read something like that about the smiths.
― (The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Tuesday, 9 April 2013 23:21 (1 month ago) Permalink
OK, guess I gotta start reading before you guys post any more spoilers.
― What About The Half That's Never Been POLLed (James Redd and the Blecchs), Wednesday, 10 April 2013 00:28 (1 month ago) Permalink
tho tbh even most of that quote isn't really wrong, except for 'unseen in british history' and 'syria, china.'― (The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Tuesday, 9 April 2013 22:29 (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― (The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Tuesday, 9 April 2013 22:29 (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
Yes,
also:
Thatcher's name must be protected not because of all the wrong that she had done, but because the people around her allowed her to do it, and therefore any criticism of Thatcher throws a dangerously absurd light on the entire machinery of British politics.
is very otm indeed. And, of course, will remain unremarked upon. (in favour of the syria/etc quote, and somthing added on about animal welfare or some such)
― Mark G, Wednesday, 10 April 2013 09:33 (1 month ago) Permalink
complete 1985 Madrid show taped for spanish TV
― ums (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Friday, 12 April 2013 14:58 (1 month ago) Permalink
rockpalast show in germany, a bit more low end on the sound here vox a little low but not bad
― ums (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Friday, 12 April 2013 15:04 (1 month ago) Permalink
Morrissey's Wolverhampton 88 show has leaked in glorious soundboard quality. Check it out on Morrissey-Solo.
― brotherlovesdub, Friday, 12 April 2013 16:50 (1 month ago) Permalink
thanks for the heads up re the 88 gig; very interesting recording! band sound way tighter than i'd have thought for their first gig. well ONLY gig i suppose with that line up.
― piscesx, Saturday, 13 April 2013 04:12 (1 month ago) Permalink
http://thoughtcatalog.com/2013/why-i-still-hate-the-smiths-and-myself/ This is one of the worst pieces of music writing I have come across.
― "bath salts" should have been my username (Pat Finn), Saturday, 13 April 2013 05:44 (1 month ago) Permalink
got the light that never goes out book at the library -- really a great rock bio so far. i'm not even a smiths die-hard (i think they're awesome, don't get me wrong), but it's just packed with good stuff.
― tylerw, Wednesday, 24 April 2013 15:36 (3 weeks ago) Permalink
kind of astonishing how fast everything went for them once marr and morrissey partnered up.
― tylerw, Wednesday, 24 April 2013 15:37 (3 weeks ago) Permalink
yeah the speed of it is crazy
also realizing that the legendary "manchester scene" was soooo small really
― ums (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Wednesday, 24 April 2013 15:51 (3 weeks ago) Permalink
The writer comes across as a misogynist cretin.
― The last of the famous international Greyjoys (Nicole), Wednesday, 24 April 2013 16:01 (3 weeks ago) Permalink
Anyway, like any good adolescent boy, I wanted in her skinny jeans so damn bad.
'any'
― (The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Wednesday, 24 April 2013 21:44 (3 weeks ago) Permalink
pretty much every sentence of that article is horribly worded, it reads like a fake piece by that onion guy.
― (The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Wednesday, 24 April 2013 21:48 (3 weeks ago) Permalink
i have read much worse reviews, the guy dos not follow the cult of the smiths and tries to explain why. his arguments are not very convincing but still.
― it's the distortion, stupid! (alex in mainhattan), Wednesday, 24 April 2013 21:50 (3 weeks ago) Permalink
How the Guardian covered the Smiths in the early 80s
With a terrible review (in both senses) from Mary Harron and an interview that misspells Morrissey's name …
― Alba, Friday, 17 May 2013 13:40 (2 days ago) Permalink
The interview is terrific. Morrisey a prick in a good way. I tried to read it imagining I had never heard The Smiths. What would the music this man makes be like? Something like Savages.
― Eyeball Kicks, Friday, 17 May 2013 14:24 (2 days ago) Permalink
Just realised that the Mary Harron who wrote the "nurd" review is the director of American Psycho (and ex-girlfriend of Tony Blair)
― Alba, Saturday, 18 May 2013 10:56 (Yesterday) Permalink
and ex-girlfriend of Tony Blair
Uhhhhhhhh, what?!?!?!?
― Bees Against Racism (Tom D.), Saturday, 18 May 2013 10:58 (Yesterday) Permalink
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/when-tony-met-mary-met-chris-467061.html
― Alba, Saturday, 18 May 2013 11:01 (Yesterday) Permalink
wow, small world.
― Josh in Chicago, Saturday, 18 May 2013 12:17 (Yesterday) Permalink
she also went out with Chris Huhne, an Oxford contemporary of Blair, who last week was tipped in the polls as the most likely contender to take over from Charles Kennedy as Liberal Democrat leader.
LOLz
― Bees Against Racism (Tom D.), Saturday, 18 May 2013 12:24 (Yesterday) Permalink