Its merits strenuously extolled by the likes of Bono and Michael Stipe, I find Horses to be a virtually unlistenable, tunelessly dull excercise in nauseating self-indulgence...and I've honestly tried to sift through the sonic silt looking for the gold that so many claim is hidden within, but I just DO NOT hear it.
Your thoughts?
― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 00:21 (twenty years ago) link
― Sean (Sean), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 00:22 (twenty years ago) link
― Andy K (Andy K), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 00:23 (twenty years ago) link
― Pashmina (Pashmina), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 00:26 (twenty years ago) link
― Francis Watlington (Francis Watlington), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 00:29 (twenty years ago) link
P'haps you should (re)read Steve Lake's olden review of Horses too, Alex? ;)
― t\'\'t (t\'\'t), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 00:29 (twenty years ago) link
― Johnny Fever (johnny fever), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 00:31 (twenty years ago) link
― Matthew Perpetua (Matthew Perpetua), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 00:33 (twenty years ago) link
― roger adultery, Tuesday, 2 December 2003 00:34 (twenty years ago) link
(Quite literally in my case - I was so taken with the record when I first heard it, that I wrote an essay about it for my college entrance application).
― Broheems (diamond), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 00:34 (twenty years ago) link
― Johnny Fever (johnny fever), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 00:36 (twenty years ago) link
― gaz (gaz), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 00:36 (twenty years ago) link
― lauren (laurenp), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 00:38 (twenty years ago) link
The cod-reggae tune ("Redondo Beach") is like the best thing Elvis Costello-ca-'77 never wrote.
― nate detritus (natedetritus), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 00:39 (twenty years ago) link
― lauren (laurenp), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 00:40 (twenty years ago) link
― lauren (laurenp), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 00:41 (twenty years ago) link
― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 00:47 (twenty years ago) link
― Broheems (diamond), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 00:48 (twenty years ago) link
― Josh in Chicago, Tuesday, 2 December 2003 00:59 (twenty years ago) link
― Sonny A. (Keiko), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 01:00 (twenty years ago) link
ps) Horses is also way better than any album that Sleater Kinney, Bjork, Tori Amos, Sinead Oconnor, or PJ Harvey ever did. So there.
― chuck, Tuesday, 2 December 2003 01:15 (twenty years ago) link
Patti's great and all, but Johnny is otm. Horses is 'important' in that it laid the foundations for what was to come, but none of her greatest songs are on it.
― The Lex (The Lex), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 01:20 (twenty years ago) link
― Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, 2 December 2003 01:21 (twenty years ago) link
― Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, 2 December 2003 01:22 (twenty years ago) link
I thought the band rocked harder on Radio Ethiopia but the songs weren't as interesting.
― Arthur (Arthur), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 01:23 (twenty years ago) link
― Gear! (Gear!), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 01:24 (twenty years ago) link
― Sonny A. (Keiko), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 01:25 (twenty years ago) link
― Gear! (Gear!), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 01:27 (twenty years ago) link
― Sonny A. (Keiko), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 01:28 (twenty years ago) link
i think people maybe expect something radical or strange from this record, given the hype. and it is sometimes(eg birdland).
― gaz (gaz), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 01:34 (twenty years ago) link
― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 01:35 (twenty years ago) link
― Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, 2 December 2003 01:36 (twenty years ago) link
― Dean Gulberry (deangulberry), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 01:37 (twenty years ago) link
― gaz (gaz), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 01:37 (twenty years ago) link
So does that make Horses the best album recorded by someone with a vagina (or is there another connection between these artists that I am missing)?
― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 01:37 (twenty years ago) link
― M Matos (M Matos), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 01:39 (twenty years ago) link
― cinniblount (James Blount), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 01:40 (twenty years ago) link
(I nominate anything by the Cramps)
― Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, 2 December 2003 01:41 (twenty years ago) link
― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 01:43 (twenty years ago) link
― Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, 2 December 2003 01:46 (twenty years ago) link
― Dean Gulberry (deangulberry), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 01:47 (twenty years ago) link
Bahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 01:48 (twenty years ago) link
― nate detritus (natedetritus), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 01:51 (twenty years ago) link
― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 02:31 (twenty years ago) link
― Gear! (Gear!), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 02:41 (twenty years ago) link
― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 02:42 (twenty years ago) link
― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 02:43 (twenty years ago) link
― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 02:43 (twenty years ago) link
― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 02:45 (twenty years ago) link
― cinniblount (James Blount), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 02:48 (twenty years ago) link
― @d@ml (nordicskilla), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 03:10 (twenty years ago) link
― nate detritus (natedetritus), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 03:35 (twenty years ago) link
― aldkfh (maryann), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 04:51 (twenty years ago) link
None of 'em are, except in terms of sales and giving college kids something new to toss up on their walls, not to mention aged rock critics something to stroke their chins over and pontificate at length about the new sounds in r'n'r/hip hop, what have you.
― Gear! (Gear!), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 05:01 (twenty years ago) link
I can't even get through the other three even halfway.
― Gear! (Gear!), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 05:02 (twenty years ago) link
― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 05:09 (twenty years ago) link
― Burr (Burr), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 05:19 (twenty years ago) link
― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 05:28 (twenty years ago) link
She contributed to one of the 5 or 6 decent songs REM managed to put together over their shabby past ten years, plus 3
Blue Oyster Cult! plus 25.
But I still don't like her so much, at least Horses I mean.
― Gear! (Gear!), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 05:33 (twenty years ago) link
― spittle (spittle), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 06:03 (twenty years ago) link
― J.D. (Justyn Dillingham), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 06:49 (twenty years ago) link
and then she sings about doing the watusi and joe going to mexico and it all balances out. Everybody wins!
― Broheems (diamond), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 07:45 (twenty years ago) link
― dave q, Tuesday, 2 December 2003 08:33 (twenty years ago) link
― Dr. C (Dr. C), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 09:09 (twenty years ago) link
― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 09:18 (twenty years ago) link
― J.D. (Justyn Dillingham), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 09:27 (twenty years ago) link
― Baaderist (Fabfunk), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 09:36 (twenty years ago) link
Hmmm. I guess you had to be there.
― mark grout (mark grout), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 09:52 (twenty years ago) link
(Oh Horses, you´re so fine you´re so fine you blow my mind, hey Horses, hey Horses) (Oh Horses, you´re so fine you´re so fine you blow my mind, hey Horses, hey Horses) (Oh Horses, you´re so fine you´re so fine you blow my mind, hey Horses, hey Horses) (Oh Horses, you´re so fine you´re so fine you blow my mind, hey Horses) Hey Horses! You´ve been around all night and that´s a little long You think you´ve got the right but I think you´ve got it wrong Why can´t you say goodnight so you can take me home, Horses ´Cause when you say you will, it always means you won´t You´re givin´ me the chills, baby, please baby don´t Every night you still leave me all alone, Horses Oh Horses, what a pity you don´t understand You take me by the heart when you take me by the hand Oh Horses, you´re so pretty, can´t you understand It´s guys like you Horses Oh, what you do Horses, do Horses Don´t break my heart, Horses Hey Horses! Now when you take me by the - who´s ever gonna know Everytime you move I let a little more show There´s somethin´ we can use, so don´t say no, Horses So come on and give it to me any way you can Any way you wanna do it, I´ll take it like a man Oh please, baby, please, don´t leave me in the jam, Horses Oh Horses, what a pity you don´t understand You take me by the heart when you take me by the hand Oh Horses, you´re so pretty, can´t you understand It´s guys like you Horses Oh, what you do Horses, do Horses Don´t break my heart, Horses (Oh Horses, you´re so fine you´re so fine you blow my mind, hey Horses, hey Horses) (Oh Horses, you´re so fine you´re so fine you blow my mind, hey Horses, hey Horses) (Oh Horses, you´re so fine you´re so fine you blow my mind, hey Horses, hey Horses) (Oh Horses, you´re so fine you´re so fine you blow my mind, hey Horses) Oh Horses, what a pity you don´t understand You take me by the heart when you take me by the hand Oh Horses, you´re so pretty, can´t you understand It´s guys like you Horses Oh, what you do Horses, do Horses Don´t break my heart, Horses Oh Horses, what a pity you don´t understand You take me by the heart when you take me by the hand Oh Horses, you´re so pretty, can´t you understand It´s guys like you Horses Oh, what you do Horses, do Horses Don´t break my heart, Horses Oh Horses, what a pity you don´t understand You take me by the heart when you take me by the hand Oh Horses, you´re so pretty, can´t you understand It´s guys like you Horses Oh, what you do Horses, do Horses Don´t break my heart, Horses Oh Horses, what a pity you don´t understand You take me by the heart when you take me by the hand Oh Horses, you´re so pretty, can´t you understand It´s guys like you Horses Oh, what you do Horses, do Horses Don´t break my heart, Horses
― mark grout (mark grout), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 09:57 (twenty years ago) link
You know, those of us who have loved this record, either back in the day, or since (although especially back-in-the-day), simply cannot ditch its brilliance just because there's now a backlash to its canonisation.
That's what I think, anyway.
― David A. (Davant), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 10:21 (twenty years ago) link
I mean, "pretentious"? WTF? Not only is "pretentious" not a pejorative, but with Leonard Cohen cited as an example of same, we're s'posed to somehow accept this bizarre conclusion? Len is also great, people!!!
There's something in that each-subsequent-record-gets-worse thing, though.
Easter is a very nice record (moments of beauty, but moments of intense awkwardness) that's not in the ballpark of Horses in terms of impact. Importance. Sigh. I don't really understand what "importance" means, objectively. Having said that, Gone Again is really the only other good Patti Smith album. Her output over a long career is patchy.
None of which takes away from the amazing Horses.
― David A. (Davant), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 10:39 (twenty years ago) link
― Nu-Enrique (Enrique), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 10:46 (twenty years ago) link
But wait... wasn't it canonized 'cause it was deemed "important"?
Some love it, some hate it, some are indifferent. What's the answer? A show of hands? This "important" thing seems kind of, well... silly.
― David A. (Davant), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 10:54 (twenty years ago) link
― Francis Watlington (Francis Watlington), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 11:52 (twenty years ago) link
― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 12:03 (twenty years ago) link
― The Spotlight Kid (kid), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 12:04 (twenty years ago) link
― Francis Watlington (Francis Watlington), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 12:13 (twenty years ago) link
Yeah, "You Can't Stop The Bum Rush" rules. I'd never established a connection between 'em and Patti Smith, but I guess "Horses" shares that chaotic throw-everything-at-the-wall-and-see-what-sticks mood that that album has.
What? Oh, Cohen. He's great too. "The Essential" rocked my Spring of 2003.
― Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 12:27 (twenty years ago) link
― Flyboy (Flyboy), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 12:45 (twenty years ago) link
― dave225 (Dave225), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 12:47 (twenty years ago) link
― thiscorrosion, Tuesday, 2 December 2003 13:10 (twenty years ago) link
Afraid not. Should I?
― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 15:05 (twenty years ago) link
I can't fucking handle it. Do me a favor, flush your head down the shitter for making such an ignorant, sexist statement.
― Jeanne Fury (Jeanne Fury), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 15:13 (twenty years ago) link
Dream on, Wrongboy.
Hey David A.....calm thyself. I'm not organizing a goon squad that's going to go around house-to-house, confiscating copies of Horses, just so we can start a big bonfire, Kilroy Was Here-stylee. I just think the album in question (Patti's, not Styx's) is an undeservedly lionized bit of pompous schlock.
― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 15:14 (twenty years ago) link
― Burr (Burr), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 15:26 (twenty years ago) link
so i'm asking, once again, why some people seem to want to go out of their way to malign Patti Smith ? this isn't the first thread to set out to dismiss not only this record but Smith herself. why is it so important to dump on this relatively concise artist (she hasn't made many records and has admitted that it would be worse to make too many bad ones than vice versa) ?
(oh, ok, most people on this thread seem to like her, but that "Loathsome New Yorkers" thread, that just made the new yorkers that talked up the original tabloid week-end "feature" and it's readers appear to be the loathsome ones)
― george gosset (gegoss), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 15:27 (twenty years ago) link
― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 15:28 (twenty years ago) link
― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 15:28 (twenty years ago) link
I don't think I'd have worded it quite that way, but fair enough.... because of the disparity between the quality of her work and the praise said work enjoys.
― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 15:36 (twenty years ago) link
― Baaderist (Fabfunk), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 15:44 (twenty years ago) link
― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 15:45 (twenty years ago) link
― Not that Chuck, Tuesday, 2 December 2003 17:20 (twenty years ago) link
Actually, I think all those artists were pretty clearly in Patti's lineage, and not just because they're women. But if it makes you any happier, *Horses* is *also* catchier, funnier, sexier, more rocking, and more memorable than any album that Tom Waits, Nick Cave, Radiohead, U2, REM, Pink Floyd, the Grateful Dead, Nirvana, Pearl Jam, the Red Hot Chili Peppers, Pavement, Roy Orbison, Bob Marley, Tupac, Boogie Down Productions, Tribe Called Qwest, the Misfits, Iron Maiden, the Smiths, or Sisters of Fucking Mercy ever made. Okay?
― chuck, Tuesday, 2 December 2003 18:09 (twenty years ago) link
― David Eugene Vinson (Gaughin), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 18:16 (twenty years ago) link
― chuck, Tuesday, 2 December 2003 18:29 (twenty years ago) link
11. If you could put together the worst concert bill possible, what 5 bands would you put on it? 1.Jet 2.Journey 3.Patti Smith 4.Wham! 5.Glass Tiger
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 18:56 (twenty years ago) link
― Gear! (Gear!), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 19:18 (twenty years ago) link
― Francis Watlington (Francis Watlington), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 20:27 (twenty years ago) link
― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 23:02 (twenty years ago) link
I can't help noticing you negelected to mention Kix, Chuck!
― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 23:06 (twenty years ago) link
― chuck, Tuesday, 2 December 2003 23:10 (twenty years ago) link
― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 23:10 (twenty years ago) link
― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 23:14 (twenty years ago) link
― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 23:21 (twenty years ago) link
And I never even heard a Tribe Called Qwest SONG I liked much, though honestly I haven't actually listed to *Low End Theory* in centuries. They always struck me as really prissy or contained or reserved or something. Is the debut the one I reviewed in Rolling Stone?
― chuck, Tuesday, 2 December 2003 23:28 (twenty years ago) link
Ha, yeah, you couldn't have picked a better example if you'd wanted to wound me in my heart if you'd tried! That record had a massive impact on me. I'd even go as far as to utter (quietly) that cliché about lives being saved, etc. So, no wonder you picked up on my lack of calmness, heh. Subjective taste-driven outrage aside, the only part I really mean is the lionization thing -- it's unfair to blame the album for it, but life's unfair I suppose...
Anyway, in my world of one, it's unthinkable to like the Sisters but hate Horses, ha!
― David A. (Davant), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 23:52 (twenty years ago) link
― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 23:55 (twenty years ago) link
― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Tuesday, 2 December 2003 23:56 (twenty years ago) link
I see no correllation sound-wise between the Sisters of Mercy and Patti Smith (although Andrew does cite Horses on his list of favorite records on the official site. Then again, Andrew also cites a Stone Temple Pilots record, so go know.)
― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Wednesday, 3 December 2003 00:00 (twenty years ago) link
― J.D. (Justyn Dillingham), Wednesday, 3 December 2003 00:03 (twenty years ago) link
― Eisbär (llamasfur), Wednesday, 3 December 2003 00:04 (twenty years ago) link
Because it's not as metal as *Radio Ethiopia*, probably. (But it's still better, and it still rocked harder. "Gloria" can do that to a record, you know? Even go ask Santa Esmeralda. Or Laura Branigan!)
― chuck, Wednesday, 3 December 2003 00:07 (twenty years ago) link
― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Wednesday, 3 December 2003 00:09 (twenty years ago) link
― chuck, Wednesday, 3 December 2003 00:11 (twenty years ago) link
Nah, me neither (although you might arguably find more "gothic" in Easter). It was a failed joke at my own expense -- ie/ I like these two things, so how can anyone not?
(Interesting that AE cites Horses, though. I didn't know that.)
― David A. (Davant), Wednesday, 3 December 2003 00:12 (twenty years ago) link
― islandscott, Wednesday, 3 December 2003 00:12 (twenty years ago) link
http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&uid=UIDCASS80311061622542118&sql=Aosj20r6at48x
Sorry, Alex!
(If the link doesn't work, just look up *The Best of Branigan* on AMG.)
― chuck, Wednesday, 3 December 2003 00:15 (twenty years ago) link
Hmmmm. Hadn't heard that one. I always thought it was a rip-off of "More than a Feelin'".
(And Michael Freedberg says all the dark goth metal bands I love rip them off, too.)
Who is Michael Freedburg that he should be making such allegations?
I used to like them okay myself; I just thought Red Lorry Yellow Lorry were more fun.
Who got the notion that I have a Sisters of Mercy tatoo on my arm? I like them, but I wouldn't take a bullet for them or anything. They certainly made more than their share of dubious records. I like everything up to and including First and Last and Always. After that, s'alright, but the magic had largely dissipated for me. Floodland is pretty good. Apart from "Ribbons", most of Vision Thing is a phone-in.
Yeah, Red Lorry Yellow Lorry were cool (though not sure I'd categorically refer to them as "fun").
― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Wednesday, 3 December 2003 00:17 (twenty years ago) link
― Eisbär (llamasfur), Wednesday, 3 December 2003 00:17 (twenty years ago) link
Well......cuter than Patti Smith, certainly.
Andrew Eldritch's favorite records....
http://www.the-sisters-of-mercy.com/gen/wwlike/listning/listning.htm#traxae
― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Wednesday, 3 December 2003 00:20 (twenty years ago) link
Wait, it's Q-Tip's fault my phone bill's so fucking high?
― nate detritus (natedetritus), Wednesday, 3 December 2003 00:20 (twenty years ago) link
Best disco critic ever (tied with Vince Alleti, actually). Still writes for the Boston Phoenix. Likes Toby Keith's new album a LOT.
― chuck, Wednesday, 3 December 2003 00:24 (twenty years ago) link
Hmmmm...well, there's no arguin' with him then.
― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Wednesday, 3 December 2003 00:27 (twenty years ago) link
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 3 December 2003 00:28 (twenty years ago) link
― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Wednesday, 3 December 2003 00:29 (twenty years ago) link
― scott seward, Wednesday, 3 December 2003 00:37 (twenty years ago) link
― chuck, Wednesday, 3 December 2003 01:03 (twenty years ago) link
Bands 1-4 are all better than Sum 41. Never heard of 5.
― billstevejim, Wednesday, 3 December 2003 01:06 (twenty years ago) link
― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Wednesday, 3 December 2003 01:07 (twenty years ago) link
― billstevejim, Wednesday, 3 December 2003 01:10 (twenty years ago) link
"Dooooooon't for-gehht me when I'm gawwwwn..."
― nate detritus (natedetritus), Wednesday, 3 December 2003 01:16 (twenty years ago) link
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 3 December 2003 01:19 (twenty years ago) link
― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Wednesday, 3 December 2003 01:19 (twenty years ago) link
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 3 December 2003 01:20 (twenty years ago) link
ONLY ON ILX!
― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Wednesday, 3 December 2003 01:23 (twenty years ago) link
http://image.allmusic.com/00/amg/pic200_web/drp000/p051/p05157o188y.jpg
― Eisbär (llamasfur), Wednesday, 3 December 2003 01:26 (twenty years ago) link
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 3 December 2003 01:26 (twenty years ago) link
― Eisbär (llamasfur), Wednesday, 3 December 2003 01:27 (twenty years ago) link
http://www.animotionlive.com/images/1985/DonCharlesBill85.jpg
― Eisbär (llamasfur), Wednesday, 3 December 2003 01:28 (twenty years ago) link
wait, the sisters did i wanna be your dog too? i don't think i've ever heard it. cuz my favorite goth version of i wanna be your dog would be the world of skin version(and their cover of nick drake's blacked eyed dog is a favorite of mine as well)
― scott seward, Wednesday, 3 December 2003 01:54 (twenty years ago) link
― J (Jay), Wednesday, 3 December 2003 02:00 (twenty years ago) link
― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Wednesday, 3 December 2003 02:54 (twenty years ago) link
― nate detritus (natedetritus), Wednesday, 3 December 2003 03:07 (twenty years ago) link
The debut I find a bit tough to get into initially. When I first bought it, I thought of returning it, but it grew on me like killah fungus. So that I can understand. Its appeal is not immediate as the following two efforts would be. But prissy, contained, and reserved...MUTHAFOCK@#$%^&*(...Hell, I AM a Tribe head. They're my favorite rap group ever, and I'm pretty obnoxious and annoying. (But only on the Internet, baby!)
― Francis Watlington (Francis Watlington), Wednesday, 3 December 2003 03:26 (twenty years ago) link
― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Wednesday, 3 December 2003 23:48 (twenty years ago) link
― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 4 December 2003 01:59 (twenty years ago) link
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 4 December 2003 02:15 (twenty years ago) link
(or nude pictures of Animotion)
― Matt Helgeson (Matt Helgeson), Thursday, 4 December 2003 02:16 (twenty years ago) link
I found myself transixed and playing songs over and over again and forcing others to listen to stuff
Alex in NYC, I love you but I fart in your general direction
― H (Heruy), Saturday, 13 November 2004 22:19 (nineteen years ago) link
― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Sunday, 14 November 2004 00:41 (nineteen years ago) link
-- Ned Raggett (ne...), December 3rd, 2003.
The sounds of a badger being forcibly grated through the strings of an acoustic guitar.
-- Alex in NYC (vassife...), December 3rd, 2003.
I do crack myself up. Someone's got to.
― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Sunday, 14 November 2004 00:45 (nineteen years ago) link
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 14 November 2004 00:48 (nineteen years ago) link
― Mary (Mary), Friday, 19 November 2004 12:40 (nineteen years ago) link
The very first sentence in this thread says it all really...
― De Doo Doo Doo De Da Dadaismus (Dada), Friday, 19 November 2004 12:44 (nineteen years ago) link
― MC Transmaniacon (natepatrin), Friday, 19 November 2004 13:22 (nineteen years ago) link
― mike a, Friday, 19 November 2004 15:53 (nineteen years ago) link
― Brian Turner (btwfmu), Saturday, 20 November 2004 02:45 (nineteen years ago) link
― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 21 October 2005 02:04 (eighteen years ago) link
― Myonga Von Bontee (Myonga Von Bontee), Friday, 21 October 2005 17:02 (eighteen years ago) link
― Myonga Von Bontee (Myonga Von Bontee), Friday, 21 October 2005 17:07 (eighteen years ago) link
― Christopher Costello (CGC), Friday, 21 October 2005 18:48 (eighteen years ago) link
― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Friday, 21 October 2005 18:54 (eighteen years ago) link
― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Friday, 21 October 2005 19:09 (eighteen years ago) link
It's still vile.
― Alex in NYC, Saturday, 20 October 2007 19:19 (sixteen years ago) link
Still great.
― filthy dylan, Saturday, 20 October 2007 19:41 (sixteen years ago) link
I don't have strong feelings about her, but she makes a lot more sense if you consider her ties to Springsteen & Blue Oyster Cult, rather than Richard Hell or Television. And relating her to Ramones or Dead Boys doesn't make any sense at all, in retrospect.
― bendy, Saturday, 20 October 2007 21:29 (sixteen years ago) link
She reminds me most of Mark E. Smith. Not in her content, but more in the meth-fueled stream of consciousness, just run through a different brain.
― filthy dylan, Sunday, 21 October 2007 04:39 (sixteen years ago) link
Listened to it once.
Really liked it.
Never listened to it again.
How queer!
― PhilK, Sunday, 21 October 2007 15:55 (sixteen years ago) link
just got offed just saw patti smith live at the cambridge junction
the music was good, lively, toe-tapping rock stuff, the performance was superb, and patti herself absolutely riveting, her between-song patter sweet, self-parodic, earnest and very funny all at once. and that's BEFORE i get onto her ad-libs during songs. most of which were about her excitement at being in cambridge, a place of 'peace and knowledge' (yeah, right!). and meeting a cow. or something. very bizarre (if amusing) soliloquy during extended Hendrix cover. oh, and she also made a lot of meeting some 'brothers' (turned out to be 'fellows') earlier on in the day. and told a lovely anecdote about shoes. what's not to love?
it did help that her backing band were superb.
― Just got offed, Wednesday, 24 October 2007 01:33 (sixteen years ago) link
I like Gloria and Land of a Thousand Dances. Everything else about the album disappointed me after hearing 20 years or so of hype.
― kingkongvsgodzilla, Wednesday, 24 October 2007 01:52 (sixteen years ago) link
I got the double CD version at fopp a while ago for £5 (must have been a mistake of pricing), and I can say that previously I was of an Alex in NYC mind (well, I wouldn't say vile, but I could say I couldn't see it)....
However, the second CD has the "Don't look back" gig recreation of the full album, and here it sounds great/alive/relevant.
So, um, try that one.
― Mark G, Wednesday, 24 October 2007 09:03 (sixteen years ago) link
Oh, I have it here.
― Mark G, Wednesday, 24 October 2007 09:05 (sixteen years ago) link
revive for AlexNYC
― Mark G, Wednesday, 24 October 2007 21:12 (sixteen years ago) link
http://youtube.com/watch?v=-8L6F-yhRW4
― sexyDancer, Wednesday, 24 October 2007 21:38 (sixteen years ago) link
Her poetry in that one is terrible. I can't stand her beyond horses. But I'll always stand by horses.
― filthy dylan, Wednesday, 24 October 2007 21:41 (sixteen years ago) link
I like the song Horses, but the album as a whole is a bit meh.
― The Real Dirty Vicar, Wednesday, 24 October 2007 22:28 (sixteen years ago) link
No! "Birdland" and "Kimberley" and "Gloria" redeem it for sure, I also like the rest of it but I am a rabid fan.
― sleeve, Wednesday, 24 October 2007 23:44 (sixteen years ago) link
ps) Horses is also way better than any album that Sleater Kinney, Bjork, Tori Amos, Sinead Oconnor, or PJ Harvey ever did. So there. So does that make Horses the best album recorded by someone with a vagina (or is there another connection between these artists that I am missing)?
best ilm zing ever
― J.D., Thursday, 25 October 2007 00:22 (sixteen years ago) link
"gloria" and "horses" are both fantastic, but i wish the rest of the album sounded more like them. that one cod-reggae or something song is nearly unlistenable.
― J.D., Thursday, 25 October 2007 00:23 (sixteen years ago) link
Mostly hostile Penman review (Horses is the one he likes):
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v38/n09/ian-penman/ways-to-be-pretentious
― Chicamaw (Ward Fowler), Wednesday, 4 May 2016 17:39 (seven years ago) link
Ah, he's no AlexInNYC
― Mark G, Wednesday, 4 May 2016 17:46 (seven years ago) link
alex was a trailblazer when it comes to patti hate.
― scott seward, Wednesday, 4 May 2016 17:51 (seven years ago) link
I now realize I forgot to post the update I penned last summer.
BRACE YOURSELVES!
― Alex in NYC, Wednesday, 4 May 2016 17:56 (seven years ago) link
Well, you didn't exactly change your mind about the music, did you?
― Gerald McBoing-Boing, Wednesday, 4 May 2016 18:07 (seven years ago) link
As I say, seek out the live version of the album, CD2 in the deluxe reissue, that for me turned me around.
And yes, "Just kids" is great.
― Mark G, Wednesday, 4 May 2016 18:10 (seven years ago) link
Nah, the music still sucks a tremendous platter of balls.
― Alex in NYC, Wednesday, 4 May 2016 18:39 (seven years ago) link
a "tremendous platter" of anything sounds pretty okay
― contenderizer, Wednesday, 4 May 2016 18:42 (seven years ago) link
like i'm imagining that they're slightly spicy, garlic-marinated balls and that they're being ferried about the pavilion by a nicely dressed young man in an apron and bowtie. the sun seems to be coming out.
― contenderizer, Wednesday, 4 May 2016 18:44 (seven years ago) link
yeah this album is one of a handful of "canonical" albums beloved by people i respect that i just cannot appreciate at all.
― wizzz! (amateurist), Thursday, 5 May 2016 00:20 (seven years ago) link
alex in nyc's blog post above is pretty sexist, though, trading in clichés of women sleeping their way to renown
― wizzz! (amateurist), Thursday, 5 May 2016 00:34 (seven years ago) link
Posted by me elsewhere a couple weeks back:
I remember taking a "history of rock music" class in my first taste of community college around 2000/2001 (so I was around 19 or 20 at the time) and was really excited to get to the punk/new wave section. In the textbook (which I wish I had saved, but alas, did not) there was, of course, much talk of the CBGB/NY scene. Besides the Ramones, the one artist that was hyped up more than anyone else was Patti Smith; in particular, Horses. There was a listening guide, no actual music was licensed, so it was up to the professor to play us the tunes mentioned. He never got around to Patti Smith, favoring instead the Ramones and more new wave-ish stuff. Because of this hype, I started to build up in my mind the thought of Patti Smith, and Horses, as this all-ahead, ass-kicking punk rawk record that was, awesomely, fronted by an equally as ass-kicking female lyricist that could provoke your mind while you rocked out. I was poor and jobless and had next to no spending money, so I would always check the racks at the used record shop and all they would have in there was multiple copies of Easter and Wave. Never did pick those up. So, anyway, time passes and I got myself a job at that very same used record store about a year later as a record clerk, in charge of processing all incoming arrivals. So, one day a copy of Horses finally shows up. I'm super excited. Didn't even bother to ask to play it in the store or have a go at the listening station. Just blind purchased it. After a long shift, I get it home, place it on the turntable aaaannnnnnnndd. . . this.It just sucks. It's boring. It's overrated. And it sounds nothing like what it's been assigned to. It has the production of a million other shitty 1975 rock records. Total disappointment.
It just sucks. It's boring. It's overrated. And it sounds nothing like what it's been assigned to. It has the production of a million other shitty 1975 rock records. Total disappointment.
― Austin, Thursday, 5 May 2016 00:46 (seven years ago) link
people who don't like this record suck
― HYPERLINK TO RAP GENIUS (BradNelson), Thursday, 5 May 2016 00:57 (seven years ago) link
i guess it's overstated as a "punk record" (its proto-punk ffs, its attitudes inform what comes later) but it's got this free-flowing, expansive quality that i feel like very few records have (like for some reason i kind of associate this record with astral weeks)
― HYPERLINK TO RAP GENIUS (BradNelson), Thursday, 5 May 2016 00:59 (seven years ago) link
i like this album well enough, but i always wished there were more moments like the first 30 seconds of "land," the whole "the boy looked at johnny, johnny started to run..." bit, which is wonderfully intense and spooky. i can appreciate patti as an influence and an icon but most of her actual music always felt a little tame to me next to the slits or the raincoats or x-ray spex or yoko ono or a lot of other female artists from roughly the same era who don't get a tenth of the attention she does (or get mostly negative attention). still, nothing against her.
― (The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Thursday, 5 May 2016 01:01 (seven years ago) link
also
I don't have strong feelings about her, but she makes a lot more sense if you consider her ties to Springsteen & Blue Oyster Cult
otm
― HYPERLINK TO RAP GENIUS (BradNelson), Thursday, 5 May 2016 01:01 (seven years ago) link
And we arrive at the crux of why Horses is a bad album.
― Austin, Thursday, 5 May 2016 02:10 (seven years ago) link
i wish i liked this album. i've tried it a couple of times. she looks so cool on the album sleeve.
― Treeship, Thursday, 5 May 2016 03:33 (seven years ago) link
surprised that so many find horses inaccessible or downright crap. it's appeal has always seemed pretty basic & obvious to me. loose, tough, bruised-up and romantic - not some paint-pealing firebomb, for the most part, but a damn fine 70s rock record. i like her voice, her lyrics and her style, the music's druggy shamble and drift, spasmodic attack. it's weird to me that patti might be faulted for failing to measure up to the mythology that got pasted onto her. with such expecations set aside, horses a strange, singular and beautiful album. only about half brilliant, but the brilliant half is as exhilaratingly immediate as anything by the velvets, stooges or insert canonical whoever.
― contenderizer, Thursday, 5 May 2016 04:27 (seven years ago) link
Love Patti and her music from "Horses" thru to "Wave" but I can't stand contemporary hippieish PS with her constant namedropping of and self-associating with the Poets' Pantheon. She's always namedropped Rimbaud, Blake and the Beats she knew but nowadays it's OTT.
― Acid Hose (Capitaine Jay Vee), Thursday, 5 May 2016 04:44 (seven years ago) link
And we arrive at the crux of why Horses is a bad album
listen idk what to tell you if you think blue öyster cult is bad. can't think of a single better rock band tbh. maybe only thin lizzy
― HYPERLINK TO RAP GENIUS (BradNelson), Thursday, 5 May 2016 04:56 (seven years ago) link
― HYPERLINK TO RAP GENIUS (BradNelson), Thursday, 5 May 2016 00:57 (8 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― Tim F, Thursday, 5 May 2016 09:53 (seven years ago) link
see what i mean? i respect tim's taste a great deal, but i don't get this record.
― wizzz! (amateurist), Thursday, 5 May 2016 17:12 (seven years ago) link
people who don't like this record certainly aren't doing a great job of not sucking
― dat login (wins), Thursday, 5 May 2016 17:15 (seven years ago) link
I like it but that's about as far as it goes for Patti tbh.
― (Henry) Green container bin with face (Tom D.), Thursday, 5 May 2016 17:16 (seven years ago) link
between that logic and alex in nyc's sexist takedown, i think i'll just forget music for a while
― wizzz! (amateurist), Thursday, 5 May 2016 17:18 (seven years ago) link
xpost
I'm with the lrb piece m/l although I like the odd bit from her non-horses (seventies) albums. Horses I love.
― dat login (wins), Thursday, 5 May 2016 17:18 (seven years ago) link
Yeah, this. I tried to like this when I was younger, and I revisit it every few years thinking "perhaps this time!" but nah.
― Ⓓⓡ. (Johnny Fever), Thursday, 5 May 2016 17:36 (seven years ago) link
Dare I ask, which post are you asserting is sexist?
― Alex in NYC, Thursday, 5 May 2016 19:59 (seven years ago) link
o all of those folks pissed off at me for shitty things I’ve said about Patti Smith, I respectfully apologize. I spoke out of turn and without having done enough of my homework.
So sexist! (insert joke emoticon here, I couldn't see anything objectionable in that piece whatsoever even though we disagree on her musical merits)
Austin, if you aren't down with BOC and Springsteen, you have no business listening to a Patti Smith album in the first place, imo
― the 'major tom guy' (sleeve), Thursday, 5 May 2016 20:03 (seven years ago) link
Seriously, I'm certainly guilty of saying loads of needlessly inflammatory shit, but I cannot fathom how I'm being sexist here. Enlighten me.
― Alex in NYC, Thursday, 5 May 2016 20:04 (seven years ago) link
You are not a woman, but you criticized a woman.
― Don Van Gorp, midwest regional VP, marketing (誤訳侮辱), Thursday, 5 May 2016 20:07 (seven years ago) link
Both of these are true. Than you for the affirmation. Didn't realize the latter would automatically render me a sexist. More to the point nowhere in either post -- the first one or the much later one -- did I ever allege anything about anyone sleeping their way to the top.
― Alex in NYC, Thursday, 5 May 2016 20:18 (seven years ago) link
alex, in your blog post (at least, the one you linked to, which was excerpted from some german book) you implied that she slept her way to fame.
― wizzz! (amateurist), Thursday, 5 May 2016 20:21 (seven years ago) link
it wasn't your post on this thread but the blog post you linked to '
apologies if i misread and you were just linking it; you seemed to imply that you wrote it (FWIW i don't know your real name)
this one: http://vassifer.blogs.com/alexinnyc/2005/07/in_damnation_of.html
Through a strategy of opportunism that set the template for unhealthily ambitious scenemakers like Courtney Love to follow years later, Smith managed to befriend and manipulate enough people...
the implication is pretty close...
― wizzz! (amateurist), Thursday, 5 May 2016 20:23 (seven years ago) link
I thought this record was okay, if unspectacular. I don't care enough about it to revisit it, though.
― But... could you imagine a formation in your lemonade? Ho! (Turrican), Thursday, 5 May 2016 20:26 (seven years ago) link
That was the first post, which I recanted in the second post. But I'm not recanting anything beyond that, as your perceived implication is unfounded. One can be an manipulative opportunist without it involving sex. The allusion to Courtney love directly relates to a snippet of video in Nick Broomfield's documentary, "Kurt & Courntey" wherein Love recites a to-do list in her campaign towards establishing herself as a star. One of those is "befriend Michael Stipe" (which, of course, she did). This is an example of manipulative opportunism that doesn't involve sleeping around.
Throwing terms like sexist around is pretty serious (much like branding someone a racist. In future, I'd suggest thinking long and hard before wheeling out such a big gun before it is warranted.
― Alex in NYC, Thursday, 5 May 2016 20:31 (seven years ago) link
She was notoriously opportunistic, especially in the early days.:
Gerard Malanga: "I was a little pissed off at Patti because when the book came out she thanked Anita Pallenberg, who she didn't even know, Bobby Neuwith and somebody else."
"I went out of my way to twist a few arms and get her work known and then she just turns around and thanks Bobby Neuwith....What did she get out of Bobby Neuwith? Maybe she got to meet Dylan. I thought it was a bit of brownnosing."
― Half-baked profundities. Self-referential smirkiness (Bob Six), Thursday, 5 May 2016 20:40 (seven years ago) link
sorry if i hastened to conclusions, alex. usually that sort of tale strongly implies, or is accompanied by, the sexist narrative of a woman sleeping her way to the top. i didn't know all these things about the young patti smith.
it still seems kind of irrelevant to whatever you think of her album. plenty of opportunists make good records; put another way, many if not most successful people are opportunists one way or another.
― wizzz! (amateurist), Thursday, 5 May 2016 20:42 (seven years ago) link
Further proving my point that this album has nothing to do with punk.
― Austin, Thursday, 5 May 2016 20:53 (seven years ago) link
Does it matter whether it has anything to do with punk?
― (Henry) Green container bin with face (Tom D.), Thursday, 5 May 2016 20:59 (seven years ago) link
When it's been assigned to that scene and thumped into the ears of music fans for generations following as such, then yes. Its whole reputation relies on it.
― Austin, Thursday, 5 May 2016 21:07 (seven years ago) link
Its whole reputation relies on it.
Now you're just being silly.
― (Henry) Green container bin with face (Tom D.), Thursday, 5 May 2016 21:14 (seven years ago) link
<3 horses all timefree money $$$$$$$$$$ redondo beach lyfe $$$$$$$$$$$i can't even really feel how ppl don't think her band was aces?? like they are just a great sound
― rockpalast '82 (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Thursday, 5 May 2016 21:21 (seven years ago) link
HOrses is great and possibly even better live. The Easy Action sets I've heard of her live as well as the boots from the era have been great. I also really like Radio Ethiopia which people apparently thought of as more fo a misfire than Horses. Not so hot on Easter which is more poppy or conventionally rocky or something.
Would love a set of her journalism. Kind of surprised there isn't one out but haven't come across one.Did really enjoy Just Kids too
― Stevolende, Thursday, 5 May 2016 21:41 (seven years ago) link
she's "punk" in a historical rather than a musicological sense, inasmuch as she belongs to the counterculture that followed in the wake of the hippies & rejected many of their values. this seems really obvious to me? idk
plus she had an attitude (or at least projected one, on record) and couldn't sing for shit
― bernard snowy, Thursday, 5 May 2016 21:42 (seven years ago) link
she loved hippies!
― Οὖτις, Thursday, 5 May 2016 21:43 (seven years ago) link
Dylan, Jagger etc
She was heavily involved in the CBGB scene that Television set up and became what was known as New York Punk.Seemed to be about d.i.y. lo fi return to basics rock after late 60s early 70s rock excess. Contained a lot of improvisation but wasn't as technique based as the mainstream of the time.
― Stevolende, Thursday, 5 May 2016 21:52 (seven years ago) link
(xp) I hope you're not implying Dylan and Jagger were hippies?
― (Henry) Green container bin with face (Tom D.), Thursday, 5 May 2016 21:55 (seven years ago) link
Anyway, it's not as cut and dried as that, she was hippyish and punky.
new york "punk" avant la lettre didn't subscribe to the whole (generally overstated) punk orthodoxy, in sound or ideology
― wizzz! (amateurist), Thursday, 5 May 2016 21:56 (seven years ago) link
in other words this is a dumb conversation
you might like patti smith or you might not, but it shouldn't have to do with whether or not she is "punk" unless you have signed a contract saying you can only like punk rock.
― wizzz! (amateurist), Thursday, 5 May 2016 21:57 (seven years ago) link
Also, musically her band were pretty punky!
― (Henry) Green container bin with face (Tom D.), Thursday, 5 May 2016 21:57 (seven years ago) link
Oh and the guitarist really triggered a return to basics in compiling Nuggets. I think that has been pointed to by a lot of people as a triggering point.I'm still not sure if Kaye was recognising people buying singles from the era when he was working at Village Oldies which from the name I'd assume was a 2nd hand place.
― Stevolende, Thursday, 5 May 2016 21:59 (seven years ago) link
I never thought of her as punk in the same way the Sex Pistols were, and never really felt that I was being asked to feel that way. I don't see that she's someone who calls out for a contrarian response. Her most recent album is wonderful, as is her first. I've been told that she was amazing live, and am prepared to believe that.
― dlp9001, Thursday, 5 May 2016 22:20 (seven years ago) link
I'm trying to think about which opening statement is more ballsy. "I am an antichrist, I am an anarchist." or "Jesus died for somebody's sins, but not mine." My sense is that most people couldn't parse the first because they didn't know enough about Greek prefixes, but would understand that the second was problematic.
― dlp9001, Thursday, 5 May 2016 22:25 (seven years ago) link
I'm one of those milennials so I have a woefully poor grounding in mod v rocker studies but for what little it's worth patti smith is quite clearly one of the biggest hippies on the planet
― dat login (wins), Thursday, 5 May 2016 22:26 (seven years ago) link
I was behind her in line at Kim's Underground once, when she dealt with aplomb with an asshole Kim's employee, which forever endeared her to me.
― dlp9001, Thursday, 5 May 2016 22:29 (seven years ago) link
Genre descriptions for Horses:
Wikipedia- Punk rock, art punk, garage rockAllMusic- New York Punk, Punk/New WaveDiscogs- Rock, Art Rock (this is the only one that gets right)RateYourMusic- Proto-Punk, Singer/Songwriter, Garage Rock, Poetry, Art Punk, Piano Rock
No.
― Austin, Friday, 6 May 2016 00:15 (seven years ago) link
Ha, I started this thread 14 years ago partly because of this problem: Taking Sides: Patti Smith vs Aerosmith
― Hi! I'm twice-coloured! (Sund4r), Friday, 6 May 2016 00:33 (seven years ago) link
contains the following unedited sequence of posts, from the halcyon days when this board could reliably make me belly-laugh at work:
Both of them pale in comparison to Alice Cooper. I'd love to hear Patti's pronunciations of all those dead French guys' names. Also, the 'legendary' first line of 'Horses', pfffft - one of those Statements to which the only possible reply is "Yeah, so what?"Aerosmith had a few moments of accidental comingtogetherness (chemical division). 'Rocks' is to garage rock what 'Exile' was to gospel music. 'Night in the Ruts' has some interesting what-the-fuck-were-they-on moments too.― dave q, Friday, 18 January 2002 01:00 (14 years ago) Permalink* * *First of all, Patti by a mile. But Aerosmith could rawk, in an illiterate sense. So they were cool for awhile (like 2 LPs worth) - until they started recycling every fucking thing. I hate Aerosmith soooo much. I can't think of a band that's less creative.― Dave225, Friday, 18 January 2002 01:00 (14 years ago) Permalink* * *fucking yank shit. golden oldys. i love music from what ive seen board should be called i love shit cos thats all u talk about.― XStatic Peace, Friday, 18 January 2002 01:00 (14 years ago) Permalink
Aerosmith had a few moments of accidental comingtogetherness (chemical division). 'Rocks' is to garage rock what 'Exile' was to gospel music. 'Night in the Ruts' has some interesting what-the-fuck-were-they-on moments too.― dave q, Friday, 18 January 2002 01:00 (14 years ago) Permalink
* * *
First of all, Patti by a mile.
But Aerosmith could rawk, in an illiterate sense. So they were cool for awhile (like 2 LPs worth) - until they started recycling every fucking thing. I hate Aerosmith soooo much. I can't think of a band that's less creative.― Dave225, Friday, 18 January 2002 01:00 (14 years ago) Permalink
fucking yank shit. golden oldys. i love music from what ive seen board should be called i love shit cos thats all u talk about.― XStatic Peace, Friday, 18 January 2002 01:00 (14 years ago) Permalink
― bernard snowy, Friday, 6 May 2016 01:41 (seven years ago) link
lol
dave q is correct in re "Yeah, so what?"
― wizzz! (amateurist), Friday, 6 May 2016 01:44 (seven years ago) link
& yet your very, "so what" response... is only possible because of punk rock hmmm?? makes u think
― bernard snowy, Friday, 6 May 2016 01:46 (seven years ago) link
briefly considered starting a thread for people to post the opening lyrics from various classic albums followed by "Yeah, so what?", thought better of it
― soref, Friday, 6 May 2016 01:51 (seven years ago) link
But yet I know, where'er I go, / That there hath pass'd away a glory—Yeah, so what?
― bernard snowy, Friday, 6 May 2016 02:01 (seven years ago) link
(this joke is: because I have become a lonely old man yelling of clouds, how it was better here before, & such)
― bernard snowy, Friday, 6 May 2016 02:03 (seven years ago) link
worst and most worst depressing thread
thread sucks, punk sucks, horses still pretty good
― contenderizer, Friday, 6 May 2016 02:49 (seven years ago) link
Did you not read the thread subject?
― Austin, Friday, 6 May 2016 02:56 (seven years ago) link
Yes,I recommend "Just Kids"
― Mark G, Friday, 6 May 2016 06:51 (seven years ago) link
punk sucks
If I could time-travel, the New York mid-70s punk scene would be one of my favoured destinations.
― Half-baked profundities. Self-referential smirkiness (Bob Six), Friday, 6 May 2016 07:27 (seven years ago) link
Bought this years ago. Played it twice. Completely underwhelmed each time. It's poetry rock, and who wants that? I don't.
― Hey Bob (Scik Mouthy), Friday, 6 May 2016 08:40 (seven years ago) link
xp me too
― contenderizer, Friday, 6 May 2016 11:10 (seven years ago) link
If you don't get much out of the incredible rollercoaster momentum of Gloria and Free Money, or the chorus of Break It Up then I don't know what to say in response. I see so many of the haters on this thread repping for so many dull and/or turgid rock records and this is the one you come out to bat against?
I think Patti in general came across at both the right AND the wrong point in musical history, in that I associate her with a kind of bohemianism that was starting to feel old-fashioned. This is pretty much the only area where comparing her with Debbie Harry (who really did seem like the future) is remotely useful. But at the same time her music is primal and squally enough that associating her with punk doesn't feel totally inappropriate.
― Matt DC, Friday, 6 May 2016 11:23 (seven years ago) link
I don't think I'll ever be able to read fans of Killing Joke and Grizzly Bear throw shade on Patti Smith without rolling my eyes.
― Matt DC, Friday, 6 May 2016 11:28 (seven years ago) link
I dont really understand why Patti needs to be compared with Debbie Harry anyway, and why it is 'remotely useful'.
― Half-baked profundities. Self-referential smirkiness (Bob Six), Friday, 6 May 2016 11:53 (seven years ago) link
I love both equally, but when I listen to Patti I feel like she's positioning herself as part of a lineage that reaches backwards into the Velvets and the Beats, even as she's reacting against that lineage. A kind of bohemianism that predated rock and assimilated it. Whereas Debbie feels like she's reaching forward, into the kind of pop moves and pop forms (rap, disco) that will dominate the decades to come. As icons of a particular scene, they feel like they're on different sides of a watershed.
In general I find the comparisons between them pretty facile and not remotely useful, but people still make them, a lot.
― Matt DC, Friday, 6 May 2016 12:10 (seven years ago) link
You just made a good/interesting one tho, so that's something
― albvivertine, Friday, 6 May 2016 12:26 (seven years ago) link
I think there was some level of rivalry between the 2 back in CBGB days. Patti trying to poach Clem Burke when he auditioned for Blondie was one thing that caused friction. It happened in CBGB itself when Smith happened to be there, not sure how intentionally, but wasn't a very tactful move on her part.
― Stevolende, Friday, 6 May 2016 12:29 (seven years ago) link
Last two posts signed Matt DC are right otm
― The WLS National Batdance (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 6 May 2016 12:32 (seven years ago) link
Matt DC tellem
― contenderizer, Friday, 6 May 2016 13:35 (seven years ago) link
I love this album btw, although I may love Easter more.
― Hi! I'm twice-coloured! (Sund4r), Friday, 6 May 2016 13:36 (seven years ago) link
I feel like she's positioning herself as part of a lineage that reaches backwards into the Velvets and the Beats, even as she's reacting against that lineage. A kind of bohemianism that predated rock and assimilated it.
feel the phrase "jim morrison" needs to occur somewhere in that sentence, tho it's perhaps what's giving her detractors the hives
― contenderizer, Friday, 6 May 2016 13:38 (seven years ago) link
fuck a thread title, punk
― contenderizer, Friday, 6 May 2016 13:40 (seven years ago) link
the reality was that the lines between "punk" and "hippie" were always very blurred and ppl on this thread seem to be having some sort of bizarre 1984 argument
greg ginn saw like 80 dead shows!johnny rotten sold acid at hawkwind shows!joe strummer walked around in flares strumming acoustic guitar & looking like nick drake!
― rockpalast '82 (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Friday, 6 May 2016 13:54 (seven years ago) link
― Matt DC
truth bomb
― the 'major tom guy' (sleeve), Friday, 6 May 2016 13:57 (seven years ago) link
ums OTM
― Hi! I'm twice-coloured! (Sund4r), Friday, 6 May 2016 14:10 (seven years ago) link
i feel like just the image of her on the album cover alone is more important than a lot of bands
― rockpalast '82 (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Friday, 6 May 2016 14:10 (seven years ago) link
iggy pop & johnny ramone, you could make the argument the 2 men most responsible for US punk, both loved the Doors
― rockpalast '82 (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Friday, 6 May 2016 14:11 (seven years ago) link
I don't even really see her as reacting against a Velvets/Beat (or Stones/Doors) lineage. xp
― Hi! I'm twice-coloured! (Sund4r), Friday, 6 May 2016 14:12 (seven years ago) link
... that wasn't what was being said.
― (Henry) Green container bin with face (Tom D.), Friday, 6 May 2016 14:15 (seven years ago) link
i just don't understand how people are acting like "oh ppl always say that she was supposed to be PUNK MAN but she doesn't sound PUNK" it's like well duh punk evolved out of a stew of post-60s stuff and she did play an important role in that it's like not like Mother Earth just pooped the The Exploited fully formed out of her geological vag
― rockpalast '82 (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Friday, 6 May 2016 14:18 (seven years ago) link
however they might've spun it later on, a huge portion of punks were former hippies, or at least former wannabe hippies. i dunno, it might be hard to see from this vantage point but patti smith, horses etc -- it must've been a pretty original, striking thing at the time. which maybe is why there might be some overrating that's gone on over the years ... but I still like that record a lot.
― tylerw, Friday, 6 May 2016 14:22 (seven years ago) link
a lineage that reaches backwards into the Velvets and the Beats, even as she's reacting against that lineage
How is this not what was being said?
― Hi! I'm twice-coloured! (Sund4r), Friday, 6 May 2016 14:29 (seven years ago) link
iggy pop & johnny ramone, you could make the argument the 2 men most responsible for US punk, both loved the Doors― rockpalast '82 (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Friday, May 6, 2016 2:11 PM
― rockpalast '82 (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Friday, May 6, 2016 2:11 PM
― Wrecka Stow Ralph (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 7 May 2016 07:01 (seven years ago) link
i thought iggy was primarilly motivated by jim morrisons stage antics - i cant remember any time he has talked about specific doors songs - put them on any of the mixes he sometimes does etc...if he was into the doors i dont think it was an infatuation that lasted - but i guess he knows best
― peanutbuttereverysingleday, Saturday, 7 May 2016 07:47 (seven years ago) link
The first Stooges album cover was meant to be influenced by The Doors lp, yes.
― Mark G, Saturday, 7 May 2016 08:36 (seven years ago) link
Yeah I always saw it that way. Iggy with airbrushed chin after his alternative cover design idea fell on its face.
― Stevolende, Saturday, 7 May 2016 08:41 (seven years ago) link
Much as it pains me to say it, I believe Iggy has also said he was influenced by Jimbo's singing style. I mean just listen to something like "Tonight." Maybe he felt a little extra simpatico because they were "name brothers."
― Wrecka Stow Ralph (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 7 May 2016 10:56 (seven years ago) link
Why would it pain you? Jim Morrison is a brilliant rock singer. My turn to quote a quote I am constantly quoting, Iggy saying that he'd borrowed so much from Jim Morrison and Mick Jagger that "you might as well call me Jim Jagger or Mick Morrison".
― (Henry) Green container bin with face (Tom D.), Saturday, 7 May 2016 11:06 (seven years ago) link
the ian penman LRB article is just tremendous. i never cared about or liked patti smith's music but that article hypnotized me.
― illegal economic migration (Tracer Hand), Saturday, 7 May 2016 11:28 (seven years ago) link
there's a relevant anecdote in Please Kill Me where Iggy recalls going to a Doors show at University of Michigan ca.1967-68 and admits to being influenced by Jimbo. He also remembers how the MC5 sneered at the Doors music because it's wasn't heavy Detroit rock & roll. "I hate those pussies" said Fred Smith (and thus the circle to Patti is completed).
― indie fresh (m coleman), Saturday, 7 May 2016 11:39 (seven years ago) link
I think Patti in general came across at both the right AND the wrong point in musical history, in that I associate her with a kind of bohemianism that was starting to feel old-fashioned.
Don't forget this crucial and rather forgotten figure who actually sold records:
http://www.rickieleejones.com/images/discography/fotos_rel/Rickie-Lee-Jones-Rolling-Stone_79.jpg
― The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Saturday, 7 May 2016 11:48 (seven years ago) link
Forgotten by who?
― Wrecka Stow Ralph (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 7 May 2016 11:59 (seven years ago) link
Some forgotten figures who didn't sell too many records:http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0001/620/MI0001620218.jpg?partner=allrovi.com
― Wrecka Stow Ralph (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 7 May 2016 12:01 (seven years ago) link
In the end, back to the subject at hand, as it were. I was put off for a long time by the thick laying on of all the poète maudit (poétesse maudite?) stuff that she seems to like to invoke- with the original Bobby Z that element was always tempered with the Robert Johnson refrains (Happy Birthday Weekend!) and was sometimes underwhelmed by the sonics (lower-case) of the band, but in the end I like some of her tunes and performances plenty, as well as some of her iconic cover poses.
― Wrecka Stow Ralph (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 7 May 2016 12:34 (seven years ago) link
― Wrecka Stow Ralph (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, May 7, 2016
outside ILM
― The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Saturday, 7 May 2016 12:47 (seven years ago) link
Ah yes, of course. You know, when you first posted that, for a split second I was sure it was a picture of David Johansen.
― Wrecka Stow Ralph (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 7 May 2016 12:51 (seven years ago) link
I'm giving this another shot later today.
― Treeship, Saturday, 7 May 2016 12:56 (seven years ago) link
― Wrecka Stow Ralph (James Redd and the Blecchs),
lol yeah
― The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Saturday, 7 May 2016 13:03 (seven years ago) link
At some very early, often overlooked, period in his solo career, when he still hadn't transitioned to putting the Dolls dress code fully behind him, and had elements of that mixed in with his incipient new look.
― Wrecka Stow Ralph (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 7 May 2016 13:14 (seven years ago) link
funky funky but chic!
― The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Saturday, 7 May 2016 13:14 (seven years ago) link
Ou est la boutique?
― Wrecka Stow Ralph (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 7 May 2016 13:36 (seven years ago) link
It kinda makes sense that 2 guys in awesome rock bands would be into awesome rock bands like the Doors
MC5 were such bros
― rockpalast '82 (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Saturday, 7 May 2016 13:51 (seven years ago) link
Speaking of some people's disappointed reaction to finally hearing Horses and how not "punk" it was, I actually like em a lot now but first hearing MC5 who I'd read about as the fathers of punk at 19 was more damn this kinda sounds like Steppenwolf
― rockpalast '82 (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Saturday, 7 May 2016 14:00 (seven years ago) link
The only thing that quote that you quote is missing is a mention of Clem Cattini.
― Wrecka Stow Ralph (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 7 May 2016 14:19 (seven years ago) link
I think a lot of Patti Smith's "punk" cred came from her live performances, which were high-energy and frenzied and of course fronted by a woman with an unconventional voice/appearance who had never really done that sort of thing before. So in that sense Patti Smith was "punk" the same way Lenny Bruce (or hey, Mapplethorpe) was punk, by dint of doing anything out of the box. Anyway, I think there were clearly two strains of punk, the dangerous, radical scare your parents punk (or proto punks) and the no less radical but maybe less overtly confrontational free to do something different punks (which is where you'd slot , say, Talking Heads or Television). Smith probably split the difference.
Keep in mind, just a few years later no one knew where to file Tom Petty! And a few more years after that Los Lobos was sharing bills with PiL and Dwight Yoakum with Husker Du, which shows how easy it was for the longest time to stick out just by doing something a little bit different.
Anyway, sure, Smith's touchstones were the Doors and Dylan and Jimi Hendrix and a whole bunch of classic rock warhorses, but who else would they be at that time?
― Josh in Chicago, Saturday, 7 May 2016 14:19 (seven years ago) link
Right.
― Wrecka Stow Ralph (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 7 May 2016 14:23 (seven years ago) link
decades old battleshttp://www.dangermouse.net/blog/images/trek/LetThatBeYourLastBattlefield.jpg
― Wrecka Stow Ralph (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 7 May 2016 14:25 (seven years ago) link
Steppenwolf > MC5 x 1,000,000
― Don Van Gorp, midwest regional VP, marketing (誤訳侮辱), Saturday, 7 May 2016 14:39 (seven years ago) link
MC5 Wayne State University live footage >>>>>>>>>>>>>Steppenwolf.
― by the light of the burning Citroën, Saturday, 7 May 2016 16:16 (seven years ago) link
"it must've been a pretty original, striking thing at the time."
radio ethiopia definitely struck me. well, not in 1976, but it was the first thing i heard/bought by her around 1981. "pissing in the river" was what i loved about it. so big and dramatic and goth. and i was a doors fan back then, so, maybe those elements appealed to me. a year or two before i was listening to joy division 24/7, the doors of their day. and then echo & the bunnymen, the doors of THEIR day.
i had always been aware of patti in the 70's because of the ads in magazines and i would see the records in stores and i read rock scene in the 70's so i stared at endless pictures of her canoodling on couches with lisa robinson and joey ramone, but she definitely still packed a punch in the early 80's. more so than joe jackson or elvis by that point. old hippie elvis showed his true trad colors soon enough. patti remained weird. and even disappeared from the rock life. which you weren't supposed to do if you had a name/heat.
― scott seward, Saturday, 7 May 2016 17:34 (seven years ago) link
Again, her most recent album Banga from 2012 is rather great, which was an absolute surprise. It goes downhill (sadly) when she goes all Doors-y, though in some ways she now sounds like Lee Renaldo doing his beat thing circa Ghosts and Flowers. Anyway, I'm not sure who else from the 70's NYC scene has put out anything so good in recent memory.
― dlp9001, Saturday, 7 May 2016 17:57 (seven years ago) link
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a82/bobbysixer/pam-ayers-orses_zpsset1rci9.jpg
― Half-baked profundities. Self-referential smirkiness (Bob Six), Saturday, 7 May 2016 19:45 (seven years ago) link
Wha?
Came to post that I just saw Patti Smith on the Roky Erickson doc posted on Good online documentaries about music... saying she was a huge 13th Floor Elevators fan.
― Wrecka Stow Ralph (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 7 May 2016 19:52 (seven years ago) link
"Anyway, I'm not sure who else from the 70's NYC scene has put out anything so good in recent memory."
not new york, but beloved by new york: i'm always impressed and surprised when i hear latter-day pere ubu/david thomas/rocket from the tombs stuff. as far as pre-punk, proto-punk, punk, and post-punk people go. and they were all those things. i kinda ignored almost everything those guys did in the 90's. who knew the 21st century would be such a period of strength despite obvious physical frailty.
― scott seward, Saturday, 7 May 2016 19:57 (seven years ago) link
Just watching this video, and realized for the first time that Lisa Suckdog (Carver) was probably referencing it on Jokes About Women into Will I Ever Do Anything With My Clothes On. Weird. The beginning bit about "I'm an artist."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jt0x8S6Ylqk
― dlp9001, Saturday, 7 May 2016 20:12 (seven years ago) link
"I'm an artist. Rock and roll is my art. I'm a nigger of the universe. And I'm free because, I can leap up and scream, I can put my fist up in the air, I don't give a shit."
vs.
"I'm an artist, I don't mind if you call me one, but if you do, I...I just don't mind and if you think it's bad I'll beat the fucking piss shit out of you 'cause I know how."
Maybe it's a coincidence, but I'm thinking no.
― dlp9001, Saturday, 7 May 2016 20:22 (seven years ago) link
i always loved that tick tock tick tock FUCK THE CLOCKS intro to live time is on my side by patti.
― scott seward, Saturday, 7 May 2016 20:31 (seven years ago) link
yeah, this. i like the whole thing really.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-cfUC4rP_g
― scott seward, Saturday, 7 May 2016 20:33 (seven years ago) link
I mean, she's stepping into the shoes of arguably the biggest rock icon of her generation, and I don't see a bit of hesitance or deference.
― dlp9001, Saturday, 7 May 2016 20:37 (seven years ago) link
sorry to state the obvious but her continued insistence on referring to herself as a "nigger" is so idiotic and maddening
― dat login (wins), Saturday, 7 May 2016 20:39 (seven years ago) link
She was way ahead of her time, and she was wrong in her time, but she's kind of been vindicated in the long run. I don't really hold it against her.
― dlp9001, Saturday, 7 May 2016 20:41 (seven years ago) link
I honestly don't know what you mean by that! For me tho, I'd be willing to let it slide (like anyone cares lol) if it was just one incredibly stupid song from roughly the era of songs called "mongoloid" and lou reed's outRAGeous comedy slurs about his backing singers or whatever but it just seems to go beyond never-quite-disowned youthful dumbshit "provocation" into something sincerely creepy. And she's still at it (per penman's mention of her talking about "spades" in the book, and she still performs rnrn right?)
― dat login (wins), Saturday, 7 May 2016 20:56 (seven years ago) link
maybe I'm just trying to revive the spirit of overheated race relation debates since nakh revived that thread lol
― dat login (wins), Saturday, 7 May 2016 20:58 (seven years ago) link
can't stand that song by The Avengers for the same reason and i really like that band. i kinda love "we are the one" more than any patti song and it definitely stands up their with any 1977 Brit punk.
― scott seward, Saturday, 7 May 2016 20:58 (seven years ago) link
Agreed on Pere Ubu recent stuff, them and Wire are really consistently great
― rockpalast '82 (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Saturday, 7 May 2016 21:09 (seven years ago) link
i kinda love "we are the one" more than any patti song
I had never heard this before, it's good! (I don't particularly care about punk tbf)
(haha yeah I will pass on that other song)
― dat login (wins), Saturday, 7 May 2016 21:15 (seven years ago) link
"up there"
― scott seward, Saturday, 7 May 2016 21:17 (seven years ago) link
kesha is the patti smith of our generation, discuss
― wizzz! (amateurist), Saturday, 7 May 2016 21:24 (seven years ago) link
no
― dat login (wins), Saturday, 7 May 2016 21:25 (seven years ago) link
I'm pretty sure I prefer Radio Ethiopia to Horses actually. Easter I've never got into if only because the song mentioned above is so collossally misguided and wrongheaded.
― Matt DC, Saturday, 7 May 2016 21:37 (seven years ago) link
i thought it was pretty badass when i was younger, and musically it still is, but yeah
― Francis Ford Cupola (contenderizer), Saturday, 7 May 2016 22:19 (seven years ago) link
It's actually interesting that the Patti Smith and Frank Zappa threads are going on at the same time. Both kind of interesting, smart people from the 60s and 70s (respectively) who weren't quite up to transcending their times. I like her more than him, but that's just personal taste.
― dlp9001, Saturday, 7 May 2016 22:21 (seven years ago) link
Did Patti ever have any difficult interaction with Weird Al or his band? Because then that would tie this thread with the Zappa thread and the Prince RIP thread as well.
― Wrecka Stow Ralph (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 7 May 2016 22:28 (seven years ago) link
Or else we could just discuss her jazz bonafides for the same result
― Wrecka Stow Ralph (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 7 May 2016 22:53 (seven years ago) link
oh she has those in spades
― dat login (wins), Saturday, 7 May 2016 22:55 (seven years ago) link
Um...
― Wrecka Stow Ralph (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 7 May 2016 23:02 (seven years ago) link
there is a book from the 70's called Rock 100 that Lenny Kaye co-wrote and i know there is a Zappa entry, but i don't remember what they wrote about him.
― scott seward, Saturday, 7 May 2016 23:26 (seven years ago) link
I'd be willing to let it slide (like anyone cares lol) if it was just one incredibly stupid song from roughly the era of songs called "mongoloid"
don't drag Devo into this!
― sarahell, Saturday, 7 May 2016 23:54 (seven years ago) link
but yeah, for me, it's the cringe-inducing "skip this track" thing like with Morrissey's "Bengali in Platforms"
― sarahell, Saturday, 7 May 2016 23:56 (seven years ago) link
It's way more aggressively cringey than Bengali, though Bengali's core message is way worse and meaner, but like when I was young I didn't even have the cultural literacy to know what Bengali meant in UK culture plus the song kinda drifts by in a haze whereas RnRN is so instantly like damn white lady pump yr brakes on the n word
― rockpalast '82 (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Sunday, 8 May 2016 00:59 (seven years ago) link
did she ever wear that lester bangs t-shirt? did lester bangs make that t-shirt? he had a lot of homemade t-shirts.
― scott seward, Sunday, 8 May 2016 01:55 (seven years ago) link
Remember when that was a viable business model? When I was a kid, I had a friend whose parents ran a T-shirt printing store. I remember my whole third or fourth grade class went on a field trip and we got T-shirts printed there, so they'd be able to keep track of us all. I don't remember where we went, but I remember the T-shirts. They were green.
― Don Van Gorp, midwest regional VP, marketing (誤訳侮辱), Sunday, 8 May 2016 01:58 (seven years ago) link
Oh yeah, I got a Let It Be t-shirt that way, to name one, from one of those places where they had all the imprints up on the wall so you could pick one, choose your shirt size and color and then they would use a press iron to meld it all together. The last time I saw something like that was late 70s.
― Wrecka Stow Ralph (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 8 May 2016 02:05 (seven years ago) link
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/12/bf/c5/12bfc552bc9624ac0819fab5248b1806.jpg
― xyzzzz__, Sunday, 8 May 2016 08:23 (seven years ago) link
As mentioned a couple of times above "Piss Factory"/"Hey Joe" is really great - pretty much the only thing I'll return to (slightly surprised Penman didn't mention it).
And then her voice was sampled in a Dead C track in World Peace Hope Et Al. Its only a couple of mins long but its the only other time I cared.
― xyzzzz__, Sunday, 8 May 2016 09:10 (seven years ago) link
Was enjoying listening to this this am, has a brief snippet of smith. Her magnetism is apparent (and yeah the assertion that she might be reacting against the beat lineage in any way is mildly baffling)
― dat login (wins), Sunday, 8 May 2016 10:38 (seven years ago) link