Who put the homophobia in hip hop?

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Zoe Williams says, "White folks."

Your thoughts?

TMFTML

TMFTML (TMFTML), Thursday, 1 May 2003 00:08 (twenty-one years ago) link

I already don't like this thread.

Curt1s St3ph3ns, Thursday, 1 May 2003 00:26 (twenty-one years ago) link

trife to thread

electric sound of jim (electricsound), Thursday, 1 May 2003 00:26 (twenty-one years ago) link

who put the chocolate in my peanut butter?

scott seward, Thursday, 1 May 2003 00:28 (twenty-one years ago) link

homophobia brings both white and black americans together. ;)

also, zoe williams is full of shit being rather revisionist.

jack cole (jackcole), Thursday, 1 May 2003 00:29 (twenty-one years ago) link

I like this thread. I hate that article. You won't find much homophobia in Public Enemy?

Homophobia's been in hip hop at least since the Superman as Fairy verse of "Rapper's Delight", which is milder than me calling "3 Feet High and Rising" the first gay rap album.

b.R.A.d. (Brad), Thursday, 1 May 2003 00:32 (twenty-one years ago) link

what genre that allows for aggressive masculinity doesn't also allow for homophobia?

Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 1 May 2003 00:38 (twenty-one years ago) link

You won't find much homophobia in Public Enemy?

Yeah, that really bugged me. PE's statements in direct interviews from the late eighties and early nineties -- hating house because it was 'gay,' citing the Koran to justify hatred of homosexuality -- really pissed me off at the time and still do. I actually just dropped a line directly to Williams about that, but also offered to try and research the exact statement if desired. It is quite possible that Williams isn't aware of them, after all.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 1 May 2003 00:46 (twenty-one years ago) link

plus, everybody knows that "hip hop" and "homophobia" and "young straight males" are just different ways of saying "homoerotic sexiness!!!!".

scott seward, Thursday, 1 May 2003 00:49 (twenty-one years ago) link

Well of course metal allows for homophobia, but at no point in the last 20 years has it been as extensive as it's been in hip hop (not sure about this, maybe that's just the metal I listen to).

b.R.A.d. (Brad), Thursday, 1 May 2003 01:02 (twenty-one years ago) link

i think it's obvious that wiliams isn't aware of a lot (or, more likely, is just adjusting facts to desired reality)

gabbneb (gabbneb), Thursday, 1 May 2003 01:04 (twenty-one years ago) link

miccio is so right (for a change). ;)

jack cole (jackcole), Thursday, 1 May 2003 01:07 (twenty-one years ago) link

hyper-masculine? for sure. but it should be noted that rap AND metal, probably my two favorite genres of popular music, are the gayest popular music genres on earth! Oh sure, cabaret and show tunes in retrospect, and house music and disco in spirit, but for attitude, love of jewelry, revenge fantasies, and leather pants NOTHING beats those two.

scott seward, Thursday, 1 May 2003 01:17 (twenty-one years ago) link

Because they're both outsider musiks. Except one is Christian and the other is anti-. So the logic of metal is more internally consistent, which is a weird thing to say.

b.R.A.d. (Brad), Thursday, 1 May 2003 01:22 (twenty-one years ago) link

wow, that is a weird thing to say. thanks! i'm gonna think about that. and you have hit on something with that outsider musiks thing as well.

scott seward, Thursday, 1 May 2003 01:27 (twenty-one years ago) link

I don't think you can sum metal up as being Christian (or anti-Christian). And where do JUDAS PRIEST and QUEEN fit into this easy to slot scheme?

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Thursday, 1 May 2003 01:28 (twenty-one years ago) link

Let's not forget the traditional strength of the church in the African-American community, often a church with a very conservative moral agenda. I'm not saying: "this is the key," but I think it should be considered.

(A black co-worker assures me that white people invented homosexuality and that blacks would never have engaged in such actions if whites hadn't corrupted them.)

Also, and maybe most important, what Anthony Miccio said.

Rockist Scientist, Thursday, 1 May 2003 01:29 (twenty-one years ago) link

Axl Rose sent flowers to the Pet Shop Boys. Or was it Depeche Mode?

Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 1 May 2003 01:31 (twenty-one years ago) link

they fit in perfectly, Alex!!! no hard rock or metal fan gave them a second glance sexuality-wise, because they fit in perfectly with everybody else.

scott seward, Thursday, 1 May 2003 01:31 (twenty-one years ago) link

PSB. Axl was a huge fan, and in Pet Shop Boys Versus America Chris Heath talks about running into Axl at an aftershow thing for PSB, and how Axl was very much a happy music geek talking about how he got into the band and all, and how Neil and Chris were pleasantly surprised by it all. Axl actually proved to be a very astute music critic in ways -- he talked about how when he first heard the band in 1986 or so he thought they sucked, but went on to say that music he doesn't like he tends to obsess over to find out *why* he doesn't like it, and that he often ends up liking it as a result. I often wish that was my way of looking at things!

Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 1 May 2003 01:34 (twenty-one years ago) link

And Griff was never permanently kicked out PE was he? I've stopped following this story, but what I remember is that he was temporarily suspended after his most famous anti-semitic remarks, but then he was reinstated later as their Minister of Information or Minister of Enlightenment, or something of that sort.

(This added after reading the article, which was pretty weak.)

Rockist Scientist, Thursday, 1 May 2003 01:34 (twenty-one years ago) link

No, how do they fit into this "LOGIC of metal is internally consistent" scheme!?!?!" (yr scheme makes some degree of sense, Scott.)

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Thursday, 1 May 2003 01:34 (twenty-one years ago) link

the closeted aspects of being a metal fan/metaller or rap fan/rapper. very interesting. the public image of hard/tough maintained by the fans and by the artists is deflated by the liberties that the artists are allowed to take within the music.When the vanity of the rapper or the power/vulnerability dynamics of the metaller is given free rein then the fan is allowed to give in to his fantasies/unspoken wish fulfillment and thus play out scenarios that would only get him shit and derision if spoken of aloud.The desire for the feminine is alive and well in straight men, it's just crushed by you know, church, state, blah, blah HAH! i'm drunk. later for y'all.

scott seward, Thursday, 1 May 2003 01:44 (twenty-one years ago) link

The Griff thing is kinda silly anyhow. He was never a major musical influence on the group, so he just went and did two embarassing solo albums (I believe he penned the immortal line "get on your knees and worship the dick") and then showed up in photos again one day.

I can relate to Axl's way of gradually liking stuff that offends him at first. I've realized that groups that seem BAD I'm more likely to eventually enjoy than boring ones since they are know how to piss me off. Though interestingly, I liked Limp Bizkit ever since "Sour" off their first album. But Devo used to piss me off and I might send them flowers now if I was Axl-rich.

Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 1 May 2003 01:45 (twenty-one years ago) link

It was me, I did it.

Mike Taylor (mjt), Thursday, 1 May 2003 01:59 (twenty-one years ago) link

The trouble with PE is that it wasn't just Griff doing the homophobe thing. Don't know about the interviews but "Meet the G That Killed Me" is about as overt about it as they could get away with.

Incidently, Griff's "What Good Is a Bomb" on Revolverlution was one of the best rap-rock tracks from last year. Not that anyone noticed.

b.R.A.d. (Brad), Thursday, 1 May 2003 02:08 (twenty-one years ago) link

I brought this up on the other homophobia/rap thread (to little response) but I also think there's probably some complex dynamic going on between gangster rap and incarceration. I'm thinking particularly of Dre's Chronic, their obsession with the male organs, jail, etc...

vahid (vahid), Thursday, 1 May 2003 02:18 (twenty-one years ago) link

"undercover fag"!

Nate Patrin (Nate Patrin), Thursday, 1 May 2003 02:20 (twenty-one years ago) link

the irony of heavy metal homophobia -- at least circa the eighties -- was that the lead singer of one of the biggest heavy metal bands at that time (Rob Halford of Juda Priest) is gay, and when he came out he admitted to homoeroticism in his lyrics and stage show. it does seem pretty blatant now, but it's still interesting that many american metal fans were oblivious to that aspect.

is there really a rap Rob Halford, though?

Tad (llamasfur), Thursday, 1 May 2003 02:36 (twenty-one years ago) link

Sisquo!

Vic (Vic), Thursday, 1 May 2003 03:37 (twenty-one years ago) link

hip hop has strong roots in reggae, which is very homophobic in itself - "botty bwoy" etc. haha HUNTA-D CHICHI SEX DEM BEEN HAVIN

ron (ron), Thursday, 1 May 2003 03:43 (twenty-one years ago) link

Tad - metal fans were hardly oblivious of Judas Priest's homoerotic undertones

James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 1 May 2003 03:44 (twenty-one years ago) link

dear electric sound of jim -

a sufficient amount of time has elapsed that you can and should say in your own words whatever potentially offensive sentiments you were waiting for your golden boy ethan to voice.

find a dick and choke on it.

woland, Thursday, 1 May 2003 03:54 (twenty-one years ago) link

a) i have no particular opinion of my own on the subject
b) golden boy? you gotta be kidding

electric sound of jim (electricsound), Thursday, 1 May 2003 03:56 (twenty-one years ago) link

c) only one, not a bag? where's the challenge??

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Thursday, 1 May 2003 03:59 (twenty-one years ago) link

SCOTT woland?

James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 1 May 2003 04:02 (twenty-one years ago) link

all hail wotan

jess (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 1 May 2003 04:04 (twenty-one years ago) link

Damn pagans.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 1 May 2003 15:44 (twenty-one years ago) link

Well Zoe Williams can't write, so why bother reading anything by her?

Dadaismus (Dada), Thursday, 1 May 2003 15:58 (twenty-one years ago) link

That piece is such a bad rip of a Toure piece from the New York Times... i'm sure she owns none of the records she is writing about and that is her only source of reference... she fucking stinks as a writer... makes me boil on the edge of violence...

Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Thursday, 1 May 2003 16:01 (twenty-one years ago) link

She writes for The Guardian, they employ Alexis Petridis: you get the picture?

Dadaismus (Dada), Thursday, 1 May 2003 16:04 (twenty-one years ago) link

Petridis makes me want to gouge out my own eyes so i can't read any more...

Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Thursday, 1 May 2003 16:07 (twenty-one years ago) link

Homophobia's offensive enough - but homophobia from a black person, who themselves would have lived with prejudice throughout their own lives, is so much harder to understand.

And anyway, hip hop's vile, so who honestly cares what they rap about? I know I don't.

russ t, Thursday, 1 May 2003 16:09 (twenty-one years ago) link

Yeah, I gave up when she equated cultural homophobia with legislated homophobia.

I want to say something about black culture in Jamaica is not the same as in America or England, and also about how homosexuality is a very different construct in black America compared to white america. But I'm in over my head, and I'll admit it.

teeny (teeny), Thursday, 1 May 2003 16:14 (twenty-one years ago) link

I like how she slides from tidily defeating the strawman that "black culture as a whole is inherently homophobic" to her main thesis: the one stating that, because she can't find much homophobia in PE and NWA, and because the Beasties and Eminem are homophobic and not racist, therefore, "Ultimately, it was not black rappers but white ones who corrupted this form."

I also like how she uses "Niggaz With Attitude" on first reference.

Sam J. (samjeff), Thursday, 1 May 2003 16:22 (twenty-one years ago) link

the idea that misanthropy ("they didn't just hate gay people, they hated everyone!") is somehow less ideologically suspect than straight-up homophobia (as if the two are somehow inseperable) is one of the most ridiculous logical leaps i've seen lately.

jess (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 1 May 2003 16:38 (twenty-one years ago) link

Public Enemy not homophobic?

Hmmmmm.....I seem to remember Chuck D. exhorting the line: "Man on Man? I don't know, maybe so -- but from what I know, the PARTS DON'T FIT!"

Followed swiftly by Flav exclaming: "Awwww Shit!"

Is that homophobia? You decide.

Alex in NYC (vassifer), Thursday, 1 May 2003 16:43 (twenty-one years ago) link

alex she quoted that in the piece

jess (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 1 May 2003 16:55 (twenty-one years ago) link

She did? Sorry, I didn't bother reading her piece....as it's basically a ridiculous assertion that anyone "put homophobia" anywhere. Stupidity and prejudice are like crab grass....they'll grow pretty much anywhere. Assigning blame is a lost cause.

Alex in NYC (vassifer), Thursday, 1 May 2003 16:58 (twenty-one years ago) link

tridis makes me want to gouge out my own eyes so i can't read any more...

That's the nicest thing anyone's ever said about Alexis Petridis. Did you know that the music nowadays is seperated in uncultured working class youths who listen to trance, and intelligent cultured middle class art students who listen to Hundred Reasons? Alexis does.

Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Thursday, 1 May 2003 17:01 (twenty-one years ago) link

James fucking Baldwin to thread.

(see also Eldridge Cleaver's homophobic go at him in Soul on Ice)

g--ff c-nn-n (gcannon), Thursday, 1 May 2003 17:03 (twenty-one years ago) link

Jess is OTM about the logical inconsistency. She seems to want "white boys" to start being racist, anti-semitic, etc...that or apologize. A rather ridiculous shit-or-get-off-the-pot argument.

Oh and, Tone Loc to thread:

"This is the 80s and I'm down with the ladies...I don't mess around with no Oscar Meyer Weiner"

Ryan McKay (Ryan McKay), Thursday, 1 May 2003 19:35 (twenty-one years ago) link

Just a thought, anyone here read Iceberg Slim's 'Mama Black Widow'?

dave q, Friday, 2 May 2003 09:13 (twenty-one years ago) link

Hm. She also appears to think that a "syllogism" is Something Bad: "This mistake is born out of one syllogism, one misconception and one silly error."

OleM (OleM), Friday, 2 May 2003 09:20 (twenty-one years ago) link

I want this to progress to the discussion of the "homie-sexuals" that the guardian talked about last time this came up.

Also, is that Caushun album as bad as I think it is?

Jacob (Jacob), Friday, 2 May 2003 09:56 (twenty-one years ago) link

"to all the mothers and the sisters and the wives and friends i wanna offer my love and respect to the end"

MCA on 'Sure Shot', effectively 'apologising' for the mysoginist comments made by Beastie Boys on previous album(s), before their apology to the gay community too i imagine.

stevem (blueski), Friday, 2 May 2003 10:04 (twenty-one years ago) link

FWIW, I went ahead and wrote Williams about my own specific thoughts and objections to the article re: Public Enemy, and received a polite and straightforward response this morning. To sum up:

* Williams agrees about the importance of contextual homophobia and how it 'generally' comes from a religious perspective

* Related to this, Williams feels that her central argument, which she thinks in retrospect only occurred to her while writing the article and wasn't emphasized as well as it could have been, is that any debates over homophobia are more appropriate in 'religious quarters' and that 'black culture only gets involved where it intersects with fundamentalism.'

* Ultimately, Williams feels much had to be left out because of space and agrees there was glossing over.

So there you go -- her responses raise some potential further questions (and I've passed a couple on to her), but she does not seem unaware of the complexities. I've mentioned the thread and perhaps she might yet appear here.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 2 May 2003 15:09 (twenty-one years ago) link


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