Britpop : Time For Reevaluation?

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Now with the release of The Britpop Film, is it time for a critical reevaluation? Britpop seems to be a dirty word for the last 6/7 years.
Was britpop really the sound of young Britain? Were there any good records from the time? Were Cast ,Bluetones & Shed 7 etc underrated? Any overlooked gems or albums from the time that stand up as 'classics'?
Or was there simply better music from the time? (Name them)

Langley, Tuesday, 4 March 2003 15:11 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

I think this recent piece sums it up pretty accurately.

Marcello Carlin, Tuesday, 4 March 2003 15:31 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

nice on Marcello ! David Stubbs sums it up. Robin Carmody also did a good anti-britpop/lad rock article - see Elidor website.

DJ Martian (djmartian), Tuesday, 4 March 2003 15:38 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

It is NOT time for re-evaluation. Give it a few years. It's already starting to look incredibly silly. Remember Powder?

Lynskey (Lynskey), Tuesday, 4 March 2003 15:42 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Is there anything from the 'Britpop Years' that anyone likes now?
I'm particularly interested in what music ilmers consider better from the time and how they compare it with 'Definetly Maybe' , 'Parklife' , 'Different Class' , 'Great Escape' , 'All Change' etc

And what were the worst albums/bands of the era.

Langley, Tuesday, 4 March 2003 15:43 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

I'll see your Powder and raise you Heavy Stereo and Bluetones.

Langley, Tuesday, 4 March 2003 15:44 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

it's all explained in this thread...

1994

I f-ing hated the britpop music culture 94-96.

DJ Martian (djmartian), Tuesday, 4 March 2003 15:49 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Maybe Britpop Top Trumps are in order . . . .

Catergories - Monkey Resemblance, Number of videos with a budget above the bands station, Union Jack bandying, Current obscurity and Degree of monobrow.

Lynskey (Lynskey), Tuesday, 4 March 2003 15:53 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

I f-ing hated the britpop music culture 94-96.

So did Brit-pop's best band, the Boo Radleys, who annihilated their own career with the so-called screw-you-all anthem C'mon Kids. Careericide is cool, especially when it's built on great songs and an uncanny Liam imitation telling everybody to reject Liamism.

Neudonym, Tuesday, 4 March 2003 15:54 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

I like Britpop and never really saw why people hated it so.

dog latin (dog latin), Tuesday, 4 March 2003 15:57 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Maybe its because i'm American but i don't see whats wrong with Britpop at alla nd why it's so hated. My favorite album of that period is probably The Verve - Northern Soul. But I guess that doesnt count as 'Britpop'. I rather liked 'Parklife' and 'Definitely Maybe'. That period had as many good albums as any other period.

Daniel Brookes, Tuesday, 4 March 2003 16:01 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Does Mansun & Suede count? I love 'Coming up' and 'Six'

Daniel Brookes, Tuesday, 4 March 2003 16:04 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

David Stubbs sums it up

Heh heh heh. Always loved that man's writing when he was in a mood.

Menswear were still great, though.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 4 March 2003 16:05 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

that piece by stubbs was good alrite, but that's not to say there weren't loads of good records released. blur, pulp, suede, elastica, ash, manics - even the bluetones were ok.

with any "scene" there are always going to be mediocre artists following behind the front-runners - hence menswear, shed 7 etc.

weasel diesel (K1l14n), Tuesday, 4 March 2003 16:11 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

The very idea of the Shed Seven "Best of" that came out a few years back still makes me laugh so hard that piss flies about my room like schrapnel.

Lynskey (Lynskey), Tuesday, 4 March 2003 16:23 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

There was a lengthy discussion of this topic, with a similar title, back in -- maybe summer 2001? Somebody link to that.

I think I quite like Britpop. I think I can understand why many people didn't.

the pinefox, Tuesday, 4 March 2003 16:25 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

What were the best albums between 1994-97 then? (Any genre/country etc)

Langley, Tuesday, 4 March 2003 16:30 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

"What were the best albums between 1994-97 then?"

Geir will answer that question over the next couple of days!

weasel diesel (K1l14n), Tuesday, 4 March 2003 16:35 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

It's not really about the music, is it? I mean, yeah, there was some awful shite as the "movement" went on, but a lot of the albums/groups cited were really quite good. I think any "hatred" (and the thrust of the Guardian article) has to do with the "Us Union Jack-Flyin' Knuckleheads and Mockneys/MadMancs Against the World" attitude of some of the bands and many of the fans.

To which this US resident says, "Big deal. People wanted to be proud of England, let 'em. At least we got Teenage Fanclub out of it." (Yeah, I know, they weren't Brit-pop. But would they have found a rabid fanbase without it? I dunno....)

Plus: XTC/Who as spiritual godfathers = better than any two movement spiritual godfathers I can think of.

Neudonym, Tuesday, 4 March 2003 16:39 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

i love teenage fanclub, but i'm uncertain about this "rabid fanbase" you speak of.

Britpop = bunch of British bands using very British influences and addressing very English issues in their lyrics: but i'm not sure it threw up any more great British music than any other stage of the 90's. Just that a lot of the good bands were related (vaguely, at least).

My fave bit in the Stubbs article is where he talks about British music being in the doldrums in the early 90's ("Suede, Massive Attack, MBV - rubbish like that.") There was always great music (and crap music) coming out of Britain, just it was more focused during that period.

weasel diesel (K1l14n), Tuesday, 4 March 2003 16:48 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

calum to thread!

Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Tuesday, 4 March 2003 16:49 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Britpop = a few blips on the radar on mainstream america

Jon Williams (ex machina), Tuesday, 4 March 2003 16:51 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Not to mention American music being in decline after Cobain's suicide - all that useless nonsense like Jeff Buckley, Wu-Tang Clan, DJ Shadow, Mercury Rev, Beck, the second coming of the Beastie Boys, RFTC...

Marcello Carlin, Tuesday, 4 March 2003 16:51 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

all that useless nonsense like Jeff Buckley

Remove the sarcasm and you're on the money!

Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 4 March 2003 16:52 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

do you think Madchester and the whole Tony Wilson 'wake up America, you're dead' fuelled excitement sweeping the UK in 1990 was actually a much more genuine and likeable statement of 'we're British and we're great' than the Britpop phase?

i do.

stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 4 March 2003 16:56 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

and the wild bunch in bristol in the '80s even more so.

ned, i KNEW you were going to post that post. you are a swine and a half ;-)

Marcello Carlin, Tuesday, 4 March 2003 16:57 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Dwell on the 'pop' in Britpop instead of the 'Brit' and it's not bad. Unfortunately nobody - least of all the fans - ever does.

Tom (Groke), Tuesday, 4 March 2003 17:05 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Re: Or was there simply better music from the time? (Name them)3

For starters 94-96 [just limiting it to British artists]

great music was made by:
bark psychosis, laika, o'rang, scorn, techno animal, The aloof, tricky, anaethma, slam, underworld and the year of 1995: jungle music one of most exciting British music cultures of alltime - was in full flow - the NME and MM virtually ignored it, apart from the odd column from Simon Reynolds. every thursday on Radio 1 at 9 - 10 - essential listening in 1995.

what fucking annoyed me was the overwhelming suffocation of NME, MM and music on TV at the time - that music revolved around a bunch of shitty conservative trad retro bands peddling melodic songs crap. The two media henchmen: Lamacq and Chris Evans were responsible for the utter mess.

the britpop/ladrock that i refer to, that stank of trad retro-isms: Shed 7, Cast, Bluetones, OCS, Oasis, Kula Shaker, Supergrass, Dodgy and Paul Weller.

I remember picking up the MM/ NME in 94/ 95 and 96 and shaking my head - how utterly wrong-headed they were each week.

DJ Martian (djmartian), Tuesday, 4 March 2003 17:08 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

The Britpop Salvage Company, Established 2001

Arthur (Arthur), Tuesday, 4 March 2003 17:15 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

but Lamacq was fairly supportive/approving of jungle and big beat...at least he says so in his book! whereas Evans thought it 'just wasnt music' probably

stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 4 March 2003 17:17 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Shed 7, Cast, Bluetones, OCS, Oasis, Kula Shaker, Supergrass, Dodgy and Paul Weller.

all released at least one song i like! ok...not Shed 7...or OCS...

stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 4 March 2003 17:20 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Thats the thing, stevem, it was a wave of great one-hit-wonders every single one of whom measured success in ten-album-careers.

Tom (Groke), Tuesday, 4 March 2003 17:22 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

"I remember picking up the MM/ NME in 94/ 95 and 96 and shaking my head - how utterly wrong-headed they were each week."

This is still true! In 6 years time are people going to be talking about the Vines, Datsuns, Libertines etc as the most exciting music being made in 2003? Er....bollocks are they.

But re: Tom's point - the pop is the important thing. Pulp & Blur especially released fantastic pop records during the 'Britpop' period that would have sounded fantastic regardless of whatever scene they were attached to. Obviously most of the really good guitar music being made 94-96 wasn't considered 'mainstream' Britpop - eg SFA, Boo Radleys, Gorky's - but what's new? At what point in the last 25 years has there not been great British guitar music, and when has the best stuff ever been the most widely celebrated?

So: Britpop as a 'scene' or 'movement' is worthless - a marketing device, basically. Some good records were made, lots of shit ones were too. It is entirely unremarkable.

pete b. (pete b.), Tuesday, 4 March 2003 17:25 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

I think its a shame that The Stone Roses got the blame for a lot of it and thus many people started to hate the stone roses for it. When they made one of the greatest pop albums of all time(and the second coming wasnt bad either,and at least that distanced itself from britpop)
I suppose at least some people did get into dance music at the time through Britpop. Prodigy,Massive Attack, Chemical Brothers,Underworld,Orbital. I guess noel g was a better influence to the oasis fans back then than Paul Weller was to weller/OCS fans, Who were far more traditional.

Langley, Tuesday, 4 March 2003 17:38 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Weller of course had already had his 'dance phase'.

Tom (Groke), Tuesday, 4 March 2003 17:41 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

i maintain the pop and one hit wonders of 1990-1993 were just as great as those in the rest of the decade, if not more so.

the thing that annoys me the most about the 'Live Forever' film is how the makers are repeatedly quoted as inferring that the 80s were just awful and Britpop/the 90s made everything better again and i just want to slap them for being so fucking wrong

stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 4 March 2003 17:46 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Yeah but it didnt come out until The Style Council box set hehe. I know what you mean though. You certainly couldnt dance to 'Heavy Soul' Weller in his TSC definitely influenced his fans better than his solo days. His jazz'soul influences for a start. Which are sadly lacking in his current output.

looking back on Britpop some terrific singles came out, a few great albums but for 'rock critics' its albums that count. But i guess its the whole flag waving thing that embarrasses everyone. I just wonder how Scottish people felt about 'Britpop'. I cant imagine scots waving union jacks with vigour somehow (or the welsh)
Steve M , the 90s and the 80s had as many great singles/bands/albums as the 60s & 70s. And the same amount of rubbish. Sometimes you just need to dig deeper. Clearly the person responsible for 'Live Forever'film didnt.

Langley, Tuesday, 4 March 2003 17:51 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

One-hit-wonders are always good.

Tom (Groke), Tuesday, 4 March 2003 17:52 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Langley, I don't think the Second Coming distanced itself from Britpop. It helped kickstart the ugly second wave of britrock - Paul Weller, Ocean Colour Scene, Kula Shaker. A lot of Britpop wasn't too great, but I did quite like the derivative staccato POP of Elastica, Blur, Sleeper, even Menswear (Daydreamer), or the prettiness of the Bluetones. After that it got boorish and ugly. It got Chris Evans. It got Be Here Now.

I wonder why Britpop remains so unloveable. Similar scenes like Merseybeat and Glam (if you discount the great groups involved in both) had loads of chancers and mediocre music, but they had some kind of charm, some sense of fun. I think Britpop is hated for its cynicism, the blatant but ironised careerism of the participants. Nobody was grateful.

Eyeball Kicks (Eyeball Kicks), Tuesday, 4 March 2003 17:56 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

One-hit-wonders are good because they dont hang about to make rubbish records that annoy us. Some Britpop (or as stated above 'Dad-rock' took itself seriously. Somethings wrong when Ocean Colour Scene are preferred to Supergrass.
I think its unfair to blame dadrock on Stone Roses. Thats purely Oasis/Wellers fault.
Perhaps Britpop(the music) wasnt bad at all. Its what became of it(dad-rock) that we all hate.
Is it possible to seperate the two?

Langley, Tuesday, 4 March 2003 18:04 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

i think people also resent the instant-nostalgia of this Britpop - all the bands mentioned seemed to be focussing on the past all the time, i know this is partly because it was the end of a century and it made substantial subject matter...maybe its wrong to see it as all the dance/electronic acts looking forward and all the guitar bands looking back, but thats how it felt for me at the time looking back on it now - i really enjoyed the nostalgia in the late 90s, the reflection and recollection but as far as art goes i always want to be looking forward. the other problem is its now 2003 and we're still in this nostalgia phase (Live Forever doesnt appear to offer anything but bogus nostalgic sentiment from what i've heard) - its become an obssession in the media but i'm tired of it now. no films about the 90s for at least another ten years i say!

stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 4 March 2003 18:05 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

One-hit-wonders are always good.

i'm trying to disprove thi, but no joy yet...

stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 4 March 2003 18:07 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

The problem w/ Live Forever as judged by its intent is that the directors are saying they're ANTI the nostalgia trip, they hate those I love the 80s/90s shows and they want to show how it really was and why it mattered. What they've actually made is a fairly superior I Love The 90s show, and taken on those terms it's not a bad film. If it was filling in an empty 90 minutes of bank holiday TV it would be fine; a cinema release flatters film and subject.

Stevem I mean they're inherently good even if the record is rubbish - they're like tiny micro-universes of pop where you can glimpse strange alternate realities in which the usual rules do not apply.

Tom (Groke), Tuesday, 4 March 2003 18:09 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

stick with Asian Dub Foundation, c.1996: "Britpop is white and retro, therefore it's racist." No messing about, thanks very much.

pete b. (pete b.), Tuesday, 4 March 2003 18:10 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

i figured thats what you meant Tom (although i did wonder ;) and yeh i guess thats good even if not every micro-universe is good itself

stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 4 March 2003 18:11 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Rarely has the tiny word "therefore" had to bear so much weight...

Tom (Groke), Tuesday, 4 March 2003 18:11 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

"Britpop is white and retro, therefore it's racist."

ha, never mind that Chandrasonic was a fan of The Byrds at this time (according to NME end of year singles round-up panel)

stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 4 March 2003 18:12 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

a question has anyone seen the NME 100 best albums of alltime list, yet? [new NME in Central London today] I am not going to see it until tomorrow.

It will be interesting to see how much junk in the past decade makes the 100.

last time around they did it was October 93 http://www.rocklist.net/nme_writers.htm

[i,e pre britpop era, i define the Britpop era as April 94 onwards (death of Cobain, focus on Britain: first Oasis single and the english culture of Parklife)

DJ Martian (djmartian), Tuesday, 4 March 2003 18:19 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

I recall the smugness of Melody Maker post-britpop of how "Our Music Won" a few years later MM was gone and we are left with NME giving Coldplay Album Of the year and hyping The Vines.
Did anyone really win?

Steve McCluskey, Tuesday, 4 March 2003 18:35 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Actually what went wrong with 'Melody Maker'? At 1st it didnt embrace Britpop quite like NME.

Steve McCluskey, Tuesday, 4 March 2003 18:36 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Some people who were quite poor are now very rich, Steve.

Tom (Groke), Tuesday, 4 March 2003 18:37 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

i would say i think the Britpop derision is a bit unhealthy, hypocritical for some even - i'd include myself in that. i was enjoying a lot of that stuff at the time - it was GCSE - degree time for me so i was the prime target for most of it in that sense, and although it wasnt my favourite kind of music i definitely got into it and got into British indie/guitar-stuff (as opposed to grunge) a lot more because of it. i really enjoyed reading NME from '94 to '99 despite their initial ignorance/mis-treatment regarding a lot of dance music on the whole in the early 90s - i dont resent them for such things now because its hard to see how things couldve gone any other way (e.g. putting Omni Trio or Armand Van Helden on the front cover would probably not have been a good idea) and that 'unappreciated underground' aspect of a lot of the dance stuff probably helped keep things interesting for a few more years (unlike the rapid saturation of Britpop at this point)...

i quite like the idea of Britpop as Messiah/sacrifical lamb - crucified for our sins...but that needs developing.

stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 4 March 2003 18:39 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

i wish more of britpop had been menswear. "we never intended to be the best band in britain. only the best dressed." thoroughly artificial and ripped off wire etc. instead of the ol' beatles / yardbirds axis everything else seemed to be on. little britpop ever seemed to reference to stones, either - too playful, making a point of not really having much of a right to their references cf. the ragged version of 'i just want to make love to you', stripped of the sensual til it's plain dirty.

matthew james (matthew james), Tuesday, 4 March 2003 18:47 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Jeez I don't want to anger Julio, but predictably I'm gonna stick up ofr Britpop. Firstly though, Chandrasonic is a twat. He attacks any music that does not adhere to his own politics and he believes music without a political slant is shit (he once got stuck into Britney Spears for this!?!? HAHAHAHA what a knob, he should get a life). What do ADF stand for anyway? Sure they've made some good points in interviews (namely Western foreign policy and the bullyish treatment of Asylum seekers) but most of their opinions are just knee jerk reactions to any bullshit, half arsed political or religious regime that happens to be white and/ or Western based. This would be fine if they'd also spend effort attacking, say, the institutional racism inherent on sectors of the Muslim community (in arranged marriages for example) but they don't. I think it's fine to attack the Church and other repressive white man cack - but then why make it one rule for one and not for the other? I hate all religious regimes the same so that makes me one of the least prejudiced people alive in my opinion. ADF's last single (Fortress Europe) was CACK with a capital C by the way.

Anyway, weren't Echobelly Britpop? And Sonia was GREAT and 'Call me Names' is a top song, and far better than any ADF song on the same subject. So they are talking bollox.

Britpop wasn't flag waving anyway. I was there. And from what I remember it was people of all creeds and colours dancing to Sleeper in the indie discos. In fact, I was the only Brit in the student flat from January - May 1996, so any notion that Britpop was racist is ignorant pish.

And the 'new lad' thing... well fair enough, but that was just Oasis and don't think many of their beer guzzling, lardass fans would have been into the effetism of Pulp, The Divine Comedy, Suede et al.

I have fond memories of the period. I enjoyed many of the bands (yes, as it has been well documented, even Sleeper) and still rate Pulp as one of my three fave bands of all time. I agree there was a lot of toss came from Britpop, but so what? Cherish it for albums such as 'Coming Up' (the only Suede that is likely to be classed as 'Britpop' IMO), 'Definately Maybe', 'Different Class' and '1977'. I still love The Bluetones as well. I thought 'Science and Nature' was a great album.

But anyway, I'm sure many will want to rip me a new asshole for defending Britpop. But that article is toss. Chris Evans may have been many things, but he was not Howard Stern, who is as bigoted and fuckwitted and pig ignorant as even the more braindead George Bush voter.

Calum Robert, Tuesday, 4 March 2003 18:53 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

And I liked Daydreamer and Being Brave but have to say Menswe@r were toss.

Shed Seven get a hard time of it, and although I'm not too familiar wasn't Chasing Rainbows quite good? Better than Coldplay anyway...

Calum Robert, Tuesday, 4 March 2003 18:55 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

One-hit-wonders are always good.
i'm trying to disprove thi, but no joy yet...

Try to remember Nick Berry's "Every Loser Wins", which is always handy in such moments.

Eyeball Kicks (Eyeball Kicks), Tuesday, 4 March 2003 18:59 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

I cheekily think that some people disliked Britpop because the brashness of it all helped lead to a kind of coarsening of pop discourse - Calum's post for instance is itself very Britpop, and maybe that kind of no-nonsense excitable sweariness caused some people brought up on New Pop and Morrissey-style epigrams to shudder a bit i.e. Britpop was a critical generation shift as much as anything else, which maybe explains why it's looked unkindly on now by some commentators.

Tom (Groke), Tuesday, 4 March 2003 19:00 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Well... whatever. I love Morrissey by the way.

Simply know what I like - and like many of the songs and albums from that period. It reminds me of a pretty special time in my life so, oh, please forgive me for not being all snobbery and instead relying on some 'excitable sweariness'.

I hope one day music will mean the same to you - be it good, bad or indifferent.

Calum Robert, Tuesday, 4 March 2003 19:05 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

i find it both ironic and sad that ILX hates Britpop. when i was in high school, i discovered 'Brit Culture' and started buying up lots of Blur, Pulp, Elastica, Supergrass, reading Stephen Fry books and staying up late to catch reruns of Red Dwarf (i now regret this last bit), the whole Anglophile trip. now i feel reasonably assured that had i been in England at the time, i would have been utterly disgusted by the whole thing.

Dave M. (rotten03), Tuesday, 4 March 2003 19:07 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

i think Calum makes a worthwhile point about ADF actually, too much knee-jerk bluster perhaps, and 'Fortress Europe' was shit, but i think they only did it cos they were fed up with 'middle England' and their view that all asylum seekers are scum - oh well...

and Dave M, understand that the hatred for Britpop is more to do with the fact that you were buying into this idea of 'Brit Culture' that didnt include a whole load of other things that were arguably just as important, meaningful and reverential as 'Cool Britannia' e.g. the development of club culture in the UK following the illegal raves fallout and urban dance genres, rise of garage etc. - fair enough if thats not your bag tho, but if you were only into it for the 'whole Anglophile trip' then itd be shame if you had not realised there was/is a lot more to youth culture in Britain than whatever bands were being championed by NME and Radio 1 at that time

stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 4 March 2003 19:12 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

ned, i KNEW you were going to post that post. you are a swine and a half ;-)

D'oh! *flees* ;-)

Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 4 March 2003 19:15 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Calum I wasn't saying that excitable sweariness is a worse way to talk about music than any other, sorry (and I thought your points about ADF were dead-on). I just think that there was a lot more of it about in the music press from about '95 - the press got a lot less Reithian and tried to be much more populist.

Tom (Groke), Tuesday, 4 March 2003 19:16 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

menswear went bad when they put on trainers and recorded a ballad. before that - ignored the new-classicism of the 1963-year-zero and concentrated entirely n the periphery. a beautiful fable.

matthew james (matthew james), Tuesday, 4 March 2003 19:21 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Fair dos. I actually never read the music press until 1996 anyway so I missed out on most of the hype.

I bought The Libertines album to day and, erm, contrary to what was said earlier... I think it sounds really good. Pretty much builds on the singles I had heard. The Vines are cack and despite what NME might tell you they are a poor live band that drove people away in their crowds when they played Gig on the Green (they have to be one of the worst live acts I've ever seen).

Calum Robert, Tuesday, 4 March 2003 19:23 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

i think Tom is right with the culural change bit, i was 24 in 1994. the people that embraced britpop were a lot younger, indeed up to a decade younger than myself.

these people did not know about: bark psychosis, laika, scorn, o.rang, flying saucer attack, insides, disco inferno, techno animal etal as championed by the Lizard and The Wire magazine.

the younger britpop generation knew nothing about the late 80s music as documented by Simon Reynolds in Blissed Out book, their music experiences/ knowledge did not include post-punk /industrial music.

DJ Martian (djmartian), Tuesday, 4 March 2003 19:25 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

What is this Brit Pop of which you speak?

s samson, Tuesday, 4 March 2003 19:32 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

What do you see as the best Songs/Albums/ Bands of the time.
And the worst?

Langley, Tuesday, 4 March 2003 20:02 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

It barely registered anywhere beyond England - does it merit discussion?

s samson, Tuesday, 4 March 2003 20:05 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

I bet most english people here under 30 liked some britpop at the very start. Probably the same with grunge or shoegazing or whatever.
Anyone here willing to admit to being a grunger or into romo?

Langley, Tuesday, 4 March 2003 20:14 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Britpop failed because it was a misguided and futile attempt to ignore the fact the the Rolling Stones were the only thing of any worth to come from Britain in the last 50 years

dave q, Tuesday, 4 March 2003 20:23 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

*coughs* Smiths, Joy Division, Led Zeppelin, Killing joke,My Bloody Valentine,Underworld, Massive Attack for a start.

langley, Tuesday, 4 March 2003 20:31 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

"the younger britpop generation knew nothing about the late 80s music as documented by Simon Reynolds in Blissed Out book, their music experiences/ knowledge did not include post-punk /industrial music."

Who cares? How snobby and elitist can you get? I know nothing of the bands you mention - but big fucking deal. I bet you know very little of cinema history does that mean that I have a write to castigate you for enjoying the latest Hollywood blockbuster when you may be unfamilair with the work of Kurosawa, Welles, Hitchcock, Lang, Griffiths et al?

And for England please dig your head out of sand and read Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland into that. Hence BRITPOP. Christ, there are four countries in the UK you know.

"Britpop failed because it was a misguided and futile attempt to ignore the fact the the Rolling Stones were the only thing of any worth to come from Britain in the last 50 years"

Hmmmmmmmmm. I can't be arsed answering that actually.


Calum Robert, Tuesday, 4 March 2003 20:33 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Oh on you go, Calum. Please?

Langley, Tuesday, 4 March 2003 20:37 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

P.I.L., Spiritualized, Spacemen 3, Wire, Gang Of Four, Stone Roses, new Order, the Cure it goes on.

Langley, Tuesday, 4 March 2003 20:41 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

(OK Roxy Music too)

dave q, Tuesday, 4 March 2003 20:50 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

and Fun Boy 3

stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 4 March 2003 21:37 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

I have a write to castigate you

You spelled 'writ' wrong.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 4 March 2003 22:42 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Okay, here's the part where I have to pull out the I was there card.

It began in weird places. All the bands from London (and waving a Union Jack around is seen abroad as a signifier of London) were people who'd spent the mid-late 80s in art/architecture/humanities courses; some of them had been going to gigs in the capital since they were in high school and were fanzine people, lots of them packed boxes in Rough Trade, and answered phones in recording studios and record companies (yo Damon, yo Emma Anderson). They were friends with the shoegazers and 80s indie people and had lots of post-punk records, Smiths, Cure, Bunnymen, 4AD, Creation, Rough Trade. American stuff mattered too - Pavement, Pixies, Sonic Youth, Happy Flowers, Bikini Kill. They also knew their Bowie and Roxy and could find a backstory of influence going back 30 years without hitting geezer-record territory (that came later when it was trendy). They were not averse to acid house, no siree. Everyone clubbed at Syndrome and Kinky Disco and went to see St Etienne, Pulp and the World of Twist. Blur were no longer Seymour and had a GIGANTIC live following.

In about '92 Blur were having Cornershop and Huggy Bear open for them - after plasticity of debut, they wanted to be more indie-arty - and Graham went out with Jo Huggy for ages. Justine was watching carefully (I met her for the first time at the Astoria for the Blur/Cornershop and the second time at a Bratmobile show). Suede were Britpop from the second they broke; intelligent application of influences and a mouthy interview. Everyone went to Blow-Up and Smashing and that's where Pulp started meeting fashionables and Menswear were recruited by Smashing's promoter Adrian.

Monobrow came from the North in 1993 and the Oasis element is really the second wave with yer evil Wellah thing going on and OCS and beer lads. Blame Johnny Marr's little brother Ian for getting them to his brother's manager before AMcG ever got hold of them. Understand why Damon made fun (he's wanky) and everyone else just yawned and passed the tinfoil (when it started going wrong for wave one, in 95/96).

suzy (suzy), Tuesday, 4 March 2003 23:03 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Now, now, Calum. Calm down and take a deep, cleansing breath. You don't want to get overheated like the bad old days, now do you?

Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Tuesday, 4 March 2003 23:12 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

the younger britpop generation knew nothing about the late 80s music as documented by Simon Reynolds in Blissed Out book, their music experiences/ knowledge did not include post-punk /industrial music.

There's a lot of truth in that, I think. It's true of me actually, except I'm older not younger! I came from a dance and black music background, having detested most of the indie music of the 1980s (although I find I like some of it now). The (better) Britpop I found refreshing because it reminded me of '70s stuff (incl. punk) - in terms of the energy not the retro-ness - and because a lot of the music I'd been into just before (house, r&b etc.) seemed a bit tired and stagnated at the time.

David (David), Tuesday, 4 March 2003 23:28 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

No, everyone read Simon and most had Blissed Out. Remember, shoegazers and MBV and AR Kane = total intersect with Syndrome and we went to see jungle and Orbital too. Post-punk from Joy Div, Wire, Liverpool groups (duh Dave Balfe owned Food), Magazine, and tons of New Wave too.

suzy (suzy), Tuesday, 4 March 2003 23:38 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Also people in my circle circa Goldsmiths 1990 inc. Resonance FM founders, people in Curve and Echobelly, girl who dated Epic Soundtracks, people attached to United Systems rave group, Kirsty Hawkshaw, Lush, Steve Lamacq, Lawrence, Moonshake and tons of raving with friend from college over to study at Laban from Detroit whose boyfriend back home worked at Transmat (mind out I was over to write for NME and was seeing Creation artiste at the time).

suzy (suzy), Tuesday, 4 March 2003 23:47 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

You dated Lawrence from Felt? *flees brickbats*

Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 4 March 2003 23:51 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

So good uk indie-pop music died when bands from the north of england took over?

Terry Collins, Tuesday, 4 March 2003 23:56 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Erm, *NO*, Ned. He dated Nick's flatmate for ages though, which is how I met him. Also we hung out with Pete Astor, Sarah Cracknell, Phil King and oh LORD how could I forget Disgraceland, where Phil lived with Douglas Hart and was venue for some great parties (two weeks after moving to London I crashed there using an Elvis rug for a blanket).

No, Terry: it wasn't about the Northern thing as the Boos and the Verve were in the loop I'm talking about, more when marketing people who read Loaded started smelling money in selling a concept of Northern masculinity filtered through a) slightly patronising Southern take and b) James Brown types discovering their inner pie and chips man as nostalgia for Northern childhood.

suzy (suzy), Wednesday, 5 March 2003 00:09 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Also people in my circle..

Your musician/artist circle somewhat different to the rank and file, I think. This is always the way; eg punk (Lydon keen on Can, Peter Hammill etc. whereas his 15 year old fans would probably not have heard of them).

David (David), Wednesday, 5 March 2003 00:10 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

your definition of britpop is very different from mine suzy!

gareth (gareth), Wednesday, 5 March 2003 00:11 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Gareth, I'm talking about beginnings. It was like the Bloomsbury Set you could dance to. Do you know who broke up Tracey Emin and Billy Childish? A half-Japanese fanzine writer with bright red hair who formed a band with her best school friend, that's who. These were people who liked art, fashion, photography, films and books and had massive quantities of records. They studied architecture, art, film, drama and music. Sophie Ellis Bextor was down Smashing every week when she was 14.

David, the youngest of us were teenagers, the Creationists from groups were about to be 30, and the vast majority were undergraduates at the time. Tons of these people also worked at MVE and through underhanded means got loads of vinyl at 18. My editor had been working for NME since she was 15.

suzy (suzy), Wednesday, 5 March 2003 00:26 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

A half-Japanese fanzine writer with bright red hair who formed a band with her best school friend, that's who.

Can't EVEN begin to guess who this might berenyi.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 5 March 2003 00:27 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

very subtle

electric sound of jim (electricsound), Wednesday, 5 March 2003 00:35 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

LUSH !

DJ Martian (djmartian), Wednesday, 5 March 2003 00:36 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Britpop was the best thing to happen to music since the mid-80s or so.

And thankfully it isn't dead yet. Coldplay, Travis, Doves and Electric Soft Parade are brilliant examples of recent Britpop. Only they aren't called Britpop, but they are. And they are just as brilliant as Blur were at their best.

Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Wednesday, 5 March 2003 01:44 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Btw. The most underrated Britpop albums were "Homegrown" and "Free Peace Sweet" by Dodgy and "It Doesn't Matter Anymore" by The Supernaturals.

Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Wednesday, 5 March 2003 01:45 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

yes i can see the overwhelming Kinks influence in Coldplay

electric sound of jim (electricsound), Wednesday, 5 March 2003 01:46 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

(May I ask what The Britpop Film is?)

Mary (Mary), Wednesday, 5 March 2003 01:52 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

All Britpop wasn't influenced by The Kinks. In fact, only Blur were.

Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Wednesday, 5 March 2003 01:56 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

QED

electric sound of jim (electricsound), Wednesday, 5 March 2003 01:57 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

understand that the hatred for Britpop is more to do with the fact that you were buying into this idea of 'Brit Culture' that didnt include a whole load of other things that were arguably just as important, meaningful and reverential as 'Cool Britannia' e.g. the development of club culture in the UK following the illegal raves fallout

oh i definitely became aware of all these things, but again i got it through someone else's media filter because i discovered electronic music through the Prodigy/Chems 'Electronica' push, which mostly left out jungle (though i discovered it very shortly afterwards).

my point was that it's kind of ironic that a big part of what appealed to a North American teenager (me) about Britpop was the idea that even the 'laddish' and populist side of British culture seemed more intelligent and alive than my own (eg. lots of grunge leftovers; no rap or electronic music on suburban radar screen quite yet). now i see my affinity for Britpop as the kind of low-Other fetishizing of foreign culture that Edward 'Orientalism' Said had a field day with. meanwhile, the people who lived through Britpop detested much of it, and perhaps rightly so. all i want is to go back to my fantasy London!

Dave M. (rotten03), Wednesday, 5 March 2003 02:11 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Remember that the raves were not "typically English" in the same way. In fact, they started in Ibiza, influenced by a phenomenon that had originally started among gay disco dancers in Chicago. So there was nothing particularly English about that, really.

Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Wednesday, 5 March 2003 02:25 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Mary: film called Live Forever out Fri in LDN.

GH: Those ravers came from council estates (Carl Cox, Deja Vu/Dub Pistols one estate specifically, Rounshaw in Carshalton) and worked the door on the Cafe de Paris (my first flatmate, who also worked at Tony Coulston-Hayter hangar raves screamed about in The Sun) before going out to Spain and making balearic; they were soul boys on their strain of American urban imports. Soul II Soul, hello? Massive Attack and the whole Bristol colonial legacy? E came into London cheers to a torch singer initials MA and granny's fave BG who had a friend called Marilyn. Also the free party/beginnings of anti-cap protest scene did teknivals all over, and people were only too happy to march against the CJB. All of this is as British as the Hippy Trail, Chris Isherwood and Morris dancing.

suzy (suzy), Wednesday, 5 March 2003 02:41 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

E came into London cheers to a torch singer initials MA and granny's fave BG

Heroes and gods both. :-)

Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 5 March 2003 02:45 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Anyway, they were American-wanna-b's. They were influenced by disco and R&B, which are American styles of music. Black or white, urban or rural, R&B is still American and remains American. Thus, there is nothing English about R&B influences.

Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Wednesday, 5 March 2003 02:50 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

D N F T T

Dave M. (rotten03), Wednesday, 5 March 2003 03:15 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

I fail to see what American R 'n' B has to do with Britpop, geir.Apart from the fact UK guitar bands in the 60s rehashed it and sent it back over the pond. Is that what you refer to?

Langley, Wednesday, 5 March 2003 05:44 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Dance/Rave/Jungle music is for gays, opressed or otherwise. There has to be something seriously wrong with you if u can get off on mind numbing beats.

Oink, Wednesday, 5 March 2003 05:58 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

This particular primate seems not to have evolved.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 5 March 2003 06:01 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

next he'll be telling us that Britpop is for straight whites only

electric sound of jim (electricsound), Wednesday, 5 March 2003 06:04 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

So what was the best between
Definitely Maybe & Parklife?
and
Whats The Story & The Great Escape?

Gordon Drysdale, Wednesday, 5 March 2003 06:04 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

this isn't Rate My Poo y'know

electric sound of jim (electricsound), Wednesday, 5 March 2003 06:05 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

I think you all need to get out more. If you want to contribute something to the world of music, then stop arguing about it and try making it for a change. either put up or shut up so to speak

Oink, Wednesday, 5 March 2003 06:05 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Ignore the troll.
Was Definitely Maybe and Parklife the best Oasis & Blur albums?
What albums from that period by OTHER bands were better?

Gordon Drysdale, Wednesday, 5 March 2003 06:06 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

believe me Oink, we're way ahead of you there.

electric sound of jim (electricsound), Wednesday, 5 March 2003 06:07 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

jim, im trying to move the thread away from the silly homophobic posting of above. He/She will go away if ignored.

Gordon Drysdale, Wednesday, 5 March 2003 06:07 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

this thread is completely insane in hundreds of different worlds.

so britpop is now carl cox and billy childish and lush and mbv and jungle and shoegaze? isnt the workability of it as a genre completely destroyed by by this? i'm relly not a fan of the idea that world of twist, st etienne etc were britpop or that the 92 era indiepop stuff was britpop. so some of the prime movers in the london axis of britpop were into doc scott, this doesnt make doc scott britpop though. there may well have been a great london scene of early 90s where people were equally into suburban base and nancy sinatra equally, but i dont see that time as britpop.

also, when were these jungle nights and where? i cannot accept any definition of jungle pre94 (or very late 93)

gareth (gareth), Wednesday, 5 March 2003 07:05 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

OK you guys (Callum etc), just one thing I cant let you away with, if only because its such an overused ploy these days:
ADF are correct and justified in their attack on anti-Immigrant prejudice of middle england. Its very real and dangerous.
And If they weren't gonna say something about it, who the hell else was ?
I don't hear anyone saying RATM were wrong to attack the hegemony of the ruling class and the evils of jingoism by saying " They're irrelevant wankers because they didn't say that the police do lots of good things in the community too".
So they're gonna sing "Fuck you I wont do what you tell me, unless its to recycle rubbish and not park in a handicapped spot, which is ok I guess"
Thats a VERY EFFECTIVE WAY to get your message across...
QUESTION: Whos the real reactionary here ?

kevin brady (groeuvre), Wednesday, 5 March 2003 08:04 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Gareth I'm saying what it was like in the petri dish: never as white and middle classish as pundits would have it - but they might have only gone to one genre of nightlife whereas I was everywhere and have always been rather good at faces and places. All your list had something to do with developing Britpop except for Carl Cox - esp Lush. Emma had a polaroid wall in her flat in W11 with snaps taken from parties which should be in the NPG and MB's then-boyfriend did press for Suede, Pulp and Elastica and managed the Verve. Billy Childish befriended all the Riot Grrrls. The celebratory clique stuff in Britpop started at the Heavenly Sunday Social and Pete from St E was on the decks as much as the then-Dust Bros. and the Cracknell was there with her Windsor posse; the week Definitely Maybe came out the Creationists celebrated with Bic-waving and nose candy and I knew it would go macho and retarded, they really thought they were taking over, even the teaboy.

Good Mixer drinking started in 1990; their extra half-hour made it popular with people who'd gone to see/been in gigs in other pubs in Camden. We listened to pirates when we weren't going to see PJ Harvey and Pulp but that was ages before we went to clubs; I went to one called Paradise in the Angel in late '93 *actually with Simon R* and wrote the first article abt. jungle for US mag; friend who later got together with record company boss worked in a shop with Kemi from Kemistry and Storm and both flipped out when Kurtney popped in the night after Syndrome with FAT? on their mind for my pal.

Whoa, I'm beginning to Zelig out EEEEK.

suzy (suzy), Wednesday, 5 March 2003 09:31 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

but the fact that these people became players in britpop doesnt make that era britpop surely? you seem to be describing a london scene, elements of which fed into britpop. im not disputing any of the things that you are describing but i dispute that that makes any of it britpop. i dont think britpop started till 94. this pre-scene (one of many - britpop was by no means a purely london scene) is just that.

yea, i know about paradise, you are right that that is the very beginnings of jungle as its own genre rather than hardcore or darkness. any earlier and it wasnt jungle (ok ok, i'll go as far back as possibly accepting summer 93 as jungle as separate from hardcore but even then it was not separated from hardcore properly at that point)

i just think your definition of britpop is too broad. broad enough to lose its defining characteristics, i mean if you're going to throw in st etienne and boys own why not terry farley, acid house, right back to danny rampling and shoom?

i see britpop as a rejection of 88-93, or at the very least, a whittling down. you mention creation records, and how they fit through the preceding period and into britpop, but look how the creation roster changed from 93 to 94. that was quite a shift, how can it all be britpop, across the big change? a lot of people by the wayside, a lot of new people, the aesthetic so oppositional to what went before?

i just think you are describing a london scene that had intersection with britpop, partly because of an industry perspective where people would continue to be involved, but in the music and in the social context britpop ripped up what had gone before

gareth (gareth), Wednesday, 5 March 2003 09:52 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Anyone see the Amanda Burton "Silent Witness" impersonation on "Dead Ringers" last night?

"But he's a 28-year-old man with a beard." "Just look at my fixed smile."

Reminds me of Gareth.

Marcello Carlin, Wednesday, 5 March 2003 10:07 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Best Britpop album: The Sound of MacAlmont & Butler
Best Britpop single: London Girls by Duffy

bham, Wednesday, 5 March 2003 10:31 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Suzy makes a very thorough case for the style lab version of Britpop, but I think it would have stayed a bohemia - rather than a pop moment - if it had interacted with a substantial audience. Tom talks about a generational shift, but really I think this began with baggy and house in 1988/9. I think the Stone Roses were the first band that both the NME and lads could agree on since The Jam (what happened to all those boys who would have been Jam fans through out the 80s, I wonder? They didn't all become Style Council fans. One of the mysteries of Casualism in the mid80s was that it didnt elect a spokesband [haha The Farm]. As a result the 80s was the queerest pop period since the early 60s). I think this was when music press readership started to shoot up - lots of people who would never have been interested in NME culture as represented by The Smiths were suddenly going to gigs, clubs etc. I think it's this enlarged constituency that was the seedbed of Britpop... It's funny to think how lamely baggy Blur initially were ('There's No Other Way' was a mildy Barretized take on Madchester) before being provoked into popartiness by Suede. And it's odd to compare the twangling citric effervescence of the Stone Roses debut with its more trad development in Oasis (the trajectory from E to booze and coke).

Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Wednesday, 5 March 2003 10:55 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

I fail to see what American R 'n' B has to do with Britpop, geir.Apart from the fact UK guitar bands in the 60s rehashed it and sent it back over the pond. Is that what you refer to?

Not Britpop. But the rave culture was.

Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Wednesday, 5 March 2003 10:58 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

when music press readership started to shoot up

Oh . . . I thought Jerry was talking about something different:(

Mary (Mary), Wednesday, 5 March 2003 11:06 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

i always forget that Lush were the bridge between shoegazing and britpop.

electric sound of jim (electricsound), Wednesday, 5 March 2003 11:12 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

I'm just saying the people who did it for me were at the Bloomsbury Set end of things (one would never describe self as Bohemian, uncool). Also if we're discussing the whole notion of using British cultural identity as an aesthetic, marketing tool, what I'm telling you is socially, personally and yes racially and class-wise many of these people drew on a wider catch of British cultural matters than most of the people who would later follow them, either as fans or as pretenders.

suzy (suzy), Wednesday, 5 March 2003 11:21 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

One of the things that irritates me about David Stubbs' article (even though I fundamentally agree with it), is how reductionist it is. Fair play to Callum for mentioning Echobelly, a band who I'm sure had more (and bigger) hits than Northern Uproar or Menswear ever did, but get completely overlooked in favour of these two whenever someone wants to paint the whole Britpop thing as boorish and masculine and quasi-racist. Likewise, with the exception of the (still brilliant) Jarvis/Jacko arse-off, Pulp's literate and witty take on the whole genre is glossed over.

The other thing that the whole Britcentric attitude threw up was that unbelievably exciting moment in late 1996 and 97 when it looked like the Prodigy and the Chemical Brothers and Orbital and Underworld and Leftfield and Goldie and The Orb and the rest of them were all going to go overground on a major scale in the US, which now seems a bit silly and naive but I still treasure that feeling that something was about to happen. It's weird that a lot of the Britpop-bashing ravers tend to overlook that nowadays when they highlighting the failure of Oasis or Blur to make much of an impact on the US.

What do I know anyway... I hated nine-tenths of Britpop and was into the Afghan Whigs and Sebadoh at the time anyway.

Matt DC (Matt DC), Wednesday, 5 March 2003 11:24 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

haha, i overlooked that because i didnt like chemical brothers or leftfield or underworld either;)

gareth (gareth), Wednesday, 5 March 2003 11:25 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

I'm also sure David Stubbs is being disingenious in painting that Jarvis/Jacko moment at the Brits as a "Ha! Take that you dumb Yanks and stick your (erm, our) Bush up your arse!" moment, as opposed to the "oh my god what on EARTH is that pompous pretentious twat doing?" moment it really was.

Matt DC (Matt DC), Wednesday, 5 March 2003 11:27 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

And they both ended up in reduced circumstances on prime time ITV1.

Marcello Carlin, Wednesday, 5 March 2003 11:32 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Another thing is - why did this attitude die, exactly? I mean, other than the bands, their families and the people that work for their record companies, you never see anyone over here getting ridiculously over-excited about the fact that Radiohead or Coldplay are massive in the States?

Matt DC (Matt DC), Wednesday, 5 March 2003 11:35 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

The "we're much cooler and better than the Yanks but we still desparately want their approval every time we send one of our piss-poor indie bands like Kula Shaker over there" attitude, that is.

Matt DC (Matt DC), Wednesday, 5 March 2003 11:36 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

The one thing of course which Stubbs misses out in his piece was the actual Exocet which finally did for Britpop - the Spice Girls.

Then again, yer basic teen pop never really went away; Take That and Boyzone were massive all the way through Britpop - and don't forget that both "Common People" and "Wonderwall" were kept off number one by the Waterman-produced, Cowell-managed Robson and Jerome.

Marcello Carlin, Wednesday, 5 March 2003 11:40 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Then again, yer basic mainstream million selling indie-schmindie has never gone away either - in album sales at least... look at Radiohead, the Manics, the Verve, Catatonia, the Shitophonics, Travis and now Coldplay all of which were almost as big, if not bigger, than Blur and Pulp but are all generally perceived to have hit after Britpop died.

Matt DC (Matt DC), Wednesday, 5 March 2003 11:43 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

I think Suzy paints the definite picture of the evolving nature of 'Britpop'. Other pop bands simply don't figure nor scan when discussing 'Britpop'. Hi-NRG, pre-fabricated pop music (i.e. Take That, Spice Girls, Gareth Gates) has been with us since the dawn of teenage radio time. I think factoring in pre-fab pop is just confusing things. Because pre-fab pop is well, like a big woolley blanket, always there no matter what significant cultural movement is happening. It's ridiculous, akin to comparing say; anti-folk with the Spice Girl. Sure, it's 'ironic' but it does not have much significance.

s samson, Wednesday, 5 March 2003 11:49 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

The Spice Girls were the decisive factor which swung the Saturday afternoon Top Shop crowd away from Britpop, though.

Marcello Carlin, Wednesday, 5 March 2003 11:52 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Britpop and the bands involved in Britpop fell apart simply because they could not sustain momentum. Insolent, lazy, coke-addled, too English, too brand new your retro - in America the only people who possibly cared about these acts effected bad English accents and dressed badly. Hardly a youth revolution like Nirvana. Or a youth revolution like Klein's No Logo. Essentially the acts had nothing to say except 'I'm British and I'm Proud'. Almost like a travel agency advertisement. And to become truly iconic an act has to make it in America. Oasis came close but failed with 'Be Here Now'. But it is funny that a British Pop music movement failed to sustain momentum even within their own country. But I will leave my comments about Britannia for another day!

s samson, Wednesday, 5 March 2003 11:58 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

british music suceeds in america when it isnt specific, when it seems anywhere-like. eg depeche mode

gareth (gareth), Wednesday, 5 March 2003 12:00 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

The Nipper is near the money as ever, though I think a word or two may be missing from his post. Also, I don't really agree about 'There's No Other Way': I think I like it. I did A-level revision to it. I don't know whether I liked it then. Probably I did.

Gareth is correct: 'London scene 1990s' != Britpop. He is correct as well to see Britpop as a rejection of 1988-1993, as much as a continuation.

the pinefox, Wednesday, 5 March 2003 12:03 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

The last time the Brits had a true shot at iconic musical status was with the Cure and Depeche Mode in 1989. With underdogs, The Smiths and New Order bubbling under. I don't factor in pop music because I can't think that a) it's any good b) I am American and I don't like irony.

s samson, Wednesday, 5 March 2003 12:03 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

And of course Gareth is right - the most successful British acts are non-specific, Morcheeba, Bush, Verve and Oasis. I never really thought of Verve and Oasis are Britpop - more just plain old rock'n'roll.

s samson, Wednesday, 5 March 2003 12:06 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Hmm, dirty dronerockers bathe and get shorter, directional haircuts. Or looked down at their shoes to realise they were by Patrick Cox.

suzy (suzy), Wednesday, 5 March 2003 12:11 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

What?

kate, Wednesday, 5 March 2003 12:14 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

''"the younger britpop generation knew nothing about the late 80s music as documented by Simon Reynolds in Blissed Out book, their music experiences/ knowledge did not include post-punk /industrial music."

Who cares? How snobby and elitist can you get? I know nothing of the bands you mention - but big fucking deal.''

well I think most ppl who were into britpop were 13-17, say.

Everyone when they get into music starts buying pop, which would include britpop at that time but it is not snobbish to go and buy some TG recs and prefer that to say, oasis or sleeper.

Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Wednesday, 5 March 2003 12:15 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Kate back on DDB patrol I see ;-p

suzy (suzy), Wednesday, 5 March 2003 12:16 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

and I do like ADF's kneejerk reactionary politics and I think more good has come out of a single ADF interview than all britpop put together.

and they've managed to make a couple of decent singles so ADF wins!

Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Wednesday, 5 March 2003 12:19 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Hey, don't mention DDB's totally out of context and not back it up.

KATE, Wednesday, 5 March 2003 12:22 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Sorry, thought it was implicit in whole 88-93 shoegazey/MBV/Spacemen vibe.

suzy (suzy), Wednesday, 5 March 2003 12:33 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

I think I would prefer to look at Britpop as a glinch in the whole musical spectrum. What particularly british music scene has come out of that? Is it too early for the Britpop revival?

s samson, Wednesday, 5 March 2003 12:54 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

''Is it too early for the Britpop revival?''

FOR THE SAKE OF HUMANITY LETS NOT GO THERE!

Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Wednesday, 5 March 2003 12:55 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

How can any good come out of their interviews? They preach to the converted. You're not going to see a KKK member at an ADF concert!

They are the worst kind of reactionary politics IMO.

calum, Wednesday, 5 March 2003 12:57 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

is there a 'good' kind of reactionary politics?

Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Wednesday, 5 March 2003 12:58 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Well, Calum it would depend on how much you would want to read of Liam and Noel doing coke, pop-academic revivalist publications on the Spice Girls or the top ten records of Cast.

I would take an ADF interview any day!

s samson, Wednesday, 5 March 2003 12:59 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

I'm with Martian all way the way on his Blissout comments. I was also 24 in 94 and the real golden age now seems like 88-93. He's also spot on with the April 94 starting point (from a general media standpoint anyway). Add in John Smith's death to the mix. I remember listening to Parklife on the earphones in Virgin's Oxford St branch on a real scorcing April 94 day and after leaving the shop I heard that Smith had died, thus paving the way for the start of Blair's Cool Britannia I guess. Read an article on Oasis in the MM later that day. Still, I possess some great memories form the 94-97 period and actually enjoyed aspects of lad culture while listening to Disco Inferno and jungle compilations. I guiltily admit that I find it hard not to get a little teary eyed nostalgic for many of the Britpop singles but reading through this thread you realize there's always a big mass of good music out there to pick n' choose from. Kevin Shield's hoped in 1995 that Britpop would eventually be forgotton about like the early sixties skiffle movement and that jungle etc would be what'll get written about in future history books as the real great legacy of the decade. Maybe that'll happen but as ever the truth (good or bad?) lies somewhere in between.

David Gunnip, Wednesday, 5 March 2003 13:17 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Is it too early for the Britpop revival?
I concur. People seemed like they weren't even ready for a new wave synth-pop revival, and that was a revival from 20 years ago! Britpop has been gone...how long exactly? (Not long enough...I can STILL smell Noel Gallaghers pitsweat in the air, and I'm all the way over HERE!)

Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Wednesday, 5 March 2003 13:20 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

What early sixties skiffle movement?

(a) Skiffle was over by 1958.
(b) No skiffle = no Britpop (from Cliff/Shadows/Beatles onwards). An absurd and ridiculous statement.

Marcello Carlin, Wednesday, 5 March 2003 13:32 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Phuck THAT! Skiffle will NEVER DIE!

Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Wednesday, 5 March 2003 13:32 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Okay...never mind. That was irrational. I'm going back to bed.

Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Wednesday, 5 March 2003 13:33 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

custos in being irrational shockah!

Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Wednesday, 5 March 2003 13:46 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Well you've got a point Julio. But they all just seemed like idealistic, and very naive, people (ADF that is). Some of their comments were a bit racist in themselves too - it always seemed to be things dramatically Christian and white that they were rallying against. Shame really, as there is good and bad in every culture...

calum, Wednesday, 5 March 2003 13:51 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

''Some of their comments were a bit racist in themselves too''

well I can't remember that anything they said could be 'racist' but I'll pull out a couple of the old NMEs and check (I prob won't do this actually).

Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Wednesday, 5 March 2003 13:55 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

I think Kevin Shields was being 'ironic'.

s samson, Wednesday, 5 March 2003 14:01 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

do a "spoonerism" on pulp & blur - the result = bulp and....

plur!!

PLUR!!!!!!!!1!

do you see!!1

Pashmina (Pashmina), Wednesday, 5 March 2003 14:03 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Some wicked gonzo postings from Suzy there, you're probably a famous hack but I've got no idea who you are. The 15 year old at the NME, that's Bidisha, isn't it? What's she up to now? I used to see her at tonnes of gigs in the early 90's then she got a huge publishing deal and disappeared from the scene, last time I saw her was about a year ago on a Nicky Campbell hosted late night talk show.

It's important to highlight the connection between the British/London riot grrrl scene and Britpop. When Blow Up (then Londinium) first started the main attendees were members of Comet Gain and Huggy Bear. Paul Tunkin would always play Stereolab's "Ping Pong" and JSBX "Afro" at the club, nowhere else in London would do this. I started going there with a mate of mine who eventually formed Menswear, he also used to attend lots of riot grrrl gigs with me. The original Menswear was a 4 piece, their drummer at the time now drums for The Beatings via Heck and a few other bands whose names escape me. All of them, except for my mate, came from Southend, they went religously to The Pink Toothbrush in Raeliegh and saw tonnes of great bands play there. They weren't clueless fuckwits (well, maybe Chris was).

Suzy seems like she was right up there with the head scenesters, I on the other hand have never been. But I've been at the right places at the right time.

They're overlooked but Smash were a very important bridge between Riot Grrrl and Britpop. You have to realise, for a year or so before 1994/5, there was no indie, just bland pacific northwest inspired metal like Alice in Chains. Seeing Smash play for the first time at The Monarch was one of the most exciting things in my life (at that time).They ignited sparks for everybody that being political, being British, providing your audience, this was so important but nobody did it. TNWOTNW was quite a limp scene, it never took off but I'll stand by it, no Smash = no Britpop. You could say, No riot grrrl = no NWOTNW = no Britpop.

On the dance music side of thing, lots of people were going to Megadog at a pub in Seven Sisters (can't recall it's name) and The North London Polytechnic. I'm not sure how many of these people were also going to Blow Up, Smashing or Fantasy Ashtray but I couldn't have been the only one. London was a million times more exciting a decade ago than it is now, everything going on now, in my opinion, just seems derivative of that moment in time.

I liked The Heavenly Sunday Social, it was like the grand celebration for a clique of people who'd been broad minded and gone out of their way to experience different aspects of London. It was the first place I'd ever been to were you could have a chat at the bar to a guy wearing a Pastels t-shirt whilst a DJ was playing Masters at Work. That seems like nothing out of the ordinary now but back then it was mind-blowing, like there's loads of musically broadminded people out there and they all seem to have decided to come here.

Then the drugs kicked in and people suddenly seemed to care more about how much they earned and what they could spunk their money on rather than the music.

But shit, nothing will beat hearing "Cigarettes and Alcohol" being played at The Albany for the last Sunday Social, it was amazing. As with any scene, the build up was fantastic and I doubt the film will cover that because there was no scene to categorise at that time, just satellites that converged into one horrible monster.

Stephen Burrows (steveeeeeeeee), Wednesday, 5 March 2003 14:26 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Well saying that any band comprising young white lads playing guitar was representative of everything wrong with the UK (indicating that this is because they ARE white and play guitars) is a bit steep...

I'm sure they mean well, but having a rant at Britney for not being poitical enough is beyond silly.

calum, Wednesday, 5 March 2003 14:31 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

the george robey wasnt it?

gareth (gareth), Wednesday, 5 March 2003 14:33 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

''You have to realise, for a year or so before 1994/5, there was no indie, just bland pacific northwest inspired metal like Alice in Chains.''

hahahaha!!!!!!!

this thread is a gift!

Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Wednesday, 5 March 2003 14:34 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Oh god, I loved brit pop. Too many sad examples of obsession to list. I was 12 in 1995 and lived in rural quebec so it all seemed very exotic. Plus, the feeling of being cooler than girls at junior high who liked the backstreet boys. That was also the first year we got the internet and I would only chat with people from England! My first friend was this 30something guy who loved Sleeper. I was going to run away to Stoke.

Genevieve, Wednesday, 5 March 2003 14:34 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

"the george robey wasnt it?"

Yeah, cheers Gareth, it turned into The Powerhaus for a bit after the one in Angel shut down. Saw The Make Up and The New Bad Things play there but not much else.

Stephen Burrows (steveeeeeeeee), Wednesday, 5 March 2003 14:38 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Collective Soul vs Stabbing Westward

dave q, Wednesday, 5 March 2003 14:50 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Steven, my NME editor was not a 15-year-old when we worked together, not the writer you mention. IIRC her book deal thing was way overhyped, not that much money really and in any case I think the novel tanked (I used her for a story in my anthology but that writing was even worse). Huge publishing deals are what Zadie Smith gets.

Ohh I never liked SMASH or These Animal Men. No matter what they said were still too much like Camden Lurchers for me.

suzy (suzy), Wednesday, 5 March 2003 15:37 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Camden Lurchers

Silverfish to thread! Whatever happened to Milk, anyway?

Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 5 March 2003 16:03 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

I've re-evaluated it certainly - I used to think it was mostly crap with some good points, now I think it was just crap.

Dadaismus, Wednesday, 5 March 2003 16:10 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

What early sixties skiffle movement?

Mr Shields was misquoted, there - he was in fact talking about the early sixties trad jazz movement.

Chriddof (Chriddof), Wednesday, 5 March 2003 16:17 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Didn't Milk join forces with a guy from Swervedriver and become Skyscraper?

Stephen Burrows (steveeeeeeeee), Wednesday, 5 March 2003 16:29 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Actually I think you're right. Nowhere near as good as Swervedriver.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 5 March 2003 16:30 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

What early sixties skiffle movement?
(a) Skiffle was over by 1958.

Yes and no. Skiffle, in its original form, was certainly over by 1958. BUT... Skiffle's main performer, Lonnie Donegan, started the 60s by releasing heavily Music Hall influenced singles like "My Old Man's a Dustman" and "Does Your Chewing Gun Lose It Flavour" - songs that were a lot more typically English-sounding than skiffle ever was. The Music Hall influences that were later to appear in the music of The Kinks, The Beatles, Queen and Madness (and, ultimately, Blur) may not have happened if it wasn't for those hits.

Sure, the British has Music Hall top hits like Mike Sarne's "Come Outside" and Temperance Seven's "You're Driving Me Crazy" in the early 60s too, but those were seen as one-off novelties, while Donegan was actually a major and important innovator name in pre-Beatles English popular music.

Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Wednesday, 5 March 2003 16:35 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

*yawn*...okay, combat nap is over. I feel better.
What did I miss?

Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Wednesday, 5 March 2003 18:01 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Where does Romo fit into all this then?

Venga, Wednesday, 5 March 2003 21:49 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Pricey's Dream Deferred.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 5 March 2003 21:50 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

OK, my top 10 Britpop albums (and I don't really consider all of these Britpop, especially not number 1, but they are done by bands or artists instrumental in the period of 1993 - 1997 so here goes...) Oh - I've limited myself to one album per artist, hence no Coming Up by Suede.

1) Dog Man Star - Suede
2) Different Class - Pulp
3) Vauxhall and I - Morrissey
4) The Masterplan - Oasis
5) Elastica - Elastica
6) Parklife - Blur
7) The Sound of McAlmont and Butler - McAlmont and Butler
8) Tellin' Stories - The Charalatans
9) 1977 - Ash
10) The It Girl - Sleeper


Calum Robert, Wednesday, 5 March 2003 22:01 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

"i was there" will be the title of suzy's autobiography, surely

, Wednesday, 5 March 2003 22:51 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

These would be my Top 10 Britpop albums. I am limiting myself to the 93-97 period only, despite several great later albums (Coldplay, Travis, Doves, Electric Soft Parade, Supergrass' best two albums and also Oasis' underrated 2000 album "Standing On The Shoulder Of Giants") could well be classified as Britpop.

1. Free Peace Sweet - Dodgy
2. Radiator - Super Furry Animals
3. Homegrown - Dodgy
4. The Great Escape - Blur
5. Parklife - Blur
6. It Doesn't Matter Anymore - Supernaturals
7. (What's The Story) Morning Glory - Oasis
8. Moseley Shoals - Ocean Colour Scene
9. Fuzzy Logic - Super Furry Animals
10.Coming Up - Suede

Note that I don't count Radiohead as Britpop. If I did, then "OK Computer" would be at the very top of the list - beating even Dodgy at their best.

Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Wednesday, 5 March 2003 23:01 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Aww Morrissey included in Britpop -- I feel so warm & fuzzy.

in America the only people who possibly cared about these acts effected bad English accents and dressed badly

Have we met?

Mary (Mary), Wednesday, 5 March 2003 23:22 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

In America the only people who possibly cared about these acts effected bad English accents and dressed badly.

You mean, just like several of the earliest Nuggets bands 30 years earlier?

Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Wednesday, 5 March 2003 23:38 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

You mean, just like several of the earliest Nuggets bands 30 years earlier?

But those guys were emulating the Rolling Stones, not bloody Blur.

Venga, Wednesday, 5 March 2003 23:43 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

But those guys were emulating the Rolling Stones,

Not at the start. The earliest Nuggets bands were emulating The Beatles. Listen to The Knickerbockers, The Gants or The Choir. Not a lot of Rolling Stones there, for certain.

not bloody Blur.

Sadly not, as 93-95 era Blur was clearly much better than 63-65-era Stones. :-)

Anyway, the Britpop bands didn't emulate Blur either. In fact, apart from obscurities such as Menswear and Octopus, no other Britpop bands sounded quite like Blur.

There were a lot of Oasis copycats around though.

Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Wednesday, 5 March 2003 23:53 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Even Geir couldn't defend The Levellers or Cast.

Langley, Thursday, 6 March 2003 03:41 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Theres a story about how Phil Collins heard what he thought was Oasis and went into Our Price and sang it to the staff so they could identify it. It wasnt Oasis it was Dodgy 'Good Enough' (the biggest pile of turd britpop was responsible for)
Phil Collins thought Dodgy were better than Oasis or Blur. Says it all really.

Philip Buesa, Thursday, 6 March 2003 03:42 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

shoegazing is getting much better press

keith (keithmcl), Thursday, 6 March 2003 04:12 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

The real golden age of British pop after the 60s was 1983 - 1986 Echo, Smiths, Cocteau Twins, New Order, Jesus & Mary Chain, etc.

The silver age was 1988-1991 My Bloody Valentine, Ride, Slowdive, etc.

After the death of shoegazing, lo there was a famine in the land of British pop. And into the valley of death stepped the Melody Maker, with their feeble attempt to manufacture "Suedemania". But the kids saw that Suede were shit, and a feeble attempt to copy the Smiths to boot, and then Bernard Butler quit the band, and the future of British pop looked bleak indeed. And into the valley of death stepped Blur, whose debut album was a weak blend of shoegazing and baggy/Madchester. But then Damon bought a Kinks album and declared that modern life was rubbish. And then Oasis appeared. And Blur and Oasis begat Pulp, and Sleeper, and too many other boring bands to count. And then an era of mediocrity reigned across the isle of Albion from 1994 - 1997.

Hopefully future generations will look back and realize that Massive Attack, Bjork, the Chemical Brothers and the entire dance scene was what was really happening during the Britpop era, and not the idiotic "feud" between Blur and Oasis.

John Hunter, Thursday, 6 March 2003 04:19 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

I feel like going home and smashing every britpop CD i own

electric sound of jim (electricsound), Thursday, 6 March 2003 04:28 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

The best Hendrix album is 'Band OF Gypsies' because that has groove. Also i agree that SLy & The Family Stone and Parliament/Funkadelic are better than The Beatles(who i also like)
Geir , do you consider a good rythmn section important?

Philip Buesa, Thursday, 6 March 2003 04:42 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Oops wrong thread. My apologies my friends.

Philip Buesa, Thursday, 6 March 2003 04:45 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

exclude Moz and the Roses, and britpop is one of the more reasonless "movements" - i kinda liked the Stay Together EP by Suede back in the day, tho i suspect that i'd hate it today.

roger adultery (roger adultery), Thursday, 6 March 2003 04:49 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Amen to Massive Attack, Chemical Brothers, The Orb, Portishead, Tricky , Underworld being remembered in the future for mid 90s music and not Britpop. But i fear it will be written about in the same way the summer of love in the 60s has been for the last 40 years.

Philip Buesa, Thursday, 6 March 2003 04:53 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

"i was there" will be the title of suzy's autobiography, surely

*hums "Losing My Edge"*

shoegazing is getting much better press

Goddammit! I should have written that article! But that would have meant pitching to Hilburn and there are things I will not do.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 6 March 2003 05:39 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

No, you'd actually love the Stay Together EP because it has 'The Living Dead' on it which is fucking gorgeous and tragic beyond belief.

I'd actually forgotten about The Bends. I'd have that in my top 10. so scrap Sleeper from my list.

Calum Robert, Thursday, 6 March 2003 08:01 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

so scrap Sleeper from my list.

who are you and what have you done with Calum?

electric sound of jim (electricsound), Thursday, 6 March 2003 08:02 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Holding him hostage for payment of old Sleeper singles. Anyone want to cough up or do I cut off the first finger?

Calum, Thursday, 6 March 2003 08:52 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

"i was there" will be the title of suzy's autobiography, surely

No, I've settled on "you weren't"

suzy (suzy), Thursday, 6 March 2003 11:31 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Geir , do you consider a good rythmn section important?

No, I am completely indifferent when it comes to the rhythm section (unless it gets so dominant that it starts dominating - then I hate it). A drummer's only job is to keep the pulse.

Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Thursday, 6 March 2003 11:39 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

It wasnt Oasis it was Dodgy 'Good Enough' (the biggest pile of turd britpop was responsible for)

Dodgy was the best band of that era, not the worst.

However, saying that Dodgy was a product of Britpop is wrong. They started out before Britpop started, and it would be more natural to compare them to acts like Lightning Seeds, Crowded House and Jellyfish - bands that already in the dark ages of music (1987-91 was the first period for music since before The Beatles) decided that they disliked the current unmelodic trend and settled for something classically melodic and influenced by the great 60s music.

Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Thursday, 6 March 2003 11:42 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Even Geir couldn't defend The Levellers or Cast.

I am not trying to defend Cast, because Cast just didn't have good enough melodies. Their choruses didn't stick in one's head like they should, and they were too harmonically boring too, sounding more like The Searchers than The Beatles.

The Levellers started out already in 1991 or so, and were never Britpop.

Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Thursday, 6 March 2003 11:44 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

'A drummer's only job is to keep the pulse'

Granted, most drummers would do well to stick to just doing that, but isn't the multiplicity of these posts starting to bore the fucking shit out of everybody else too, to the point of giving up in disgust at virtually all threads? For somebody who hates drums so much, these posts are like a 909 stuck on demo mode with the 'off' switch broken

dave q, Thursday, 6 March 2003 12:03 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

If Dodgy weren't Britpop because they started making records before the period then that kinda kills Pulp and Blur as well doesn't it?

Duh!

Calum Robert, Thursday, 6 March 2003 12:06 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Holding him hostage for payment of old Sleeper singles. Anyone want to cough up or do I cut off the first finger?
Ooooh Ooooh, Can I cut him instead? Can I? CAN I?!

Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Thursday, 6 March 2003 14:01 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

hey hey q!!

the pinefox, Thursday, 6 March 2003 15:57 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Geir why was 87-91 so barren? it was maybe the most exciting times in music?
Sonic Youth - Day Dream Nation
Acid House
Nirvana - Bleach/Nevermind
Slint - Spiderland
Pixies - Doolittle
Detroit Techno
808 State
Public Enemy
Big Black
Happy Mondays
Spacemen 3
Massive Attack
Primal Scream
My Bloody Valentine
lots of great albums by those bands and more.
Do you dismiss each and every one?

Kevin McMonagle, Thursday, 6 March 2003 17:07 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

bands that already in the dark ages of music (1987-91 was the first period for music since before The Beatles)
87-91! A Dark Age!
Fuuuccck!

Thats it! No more diplomacy. Gloves are coming off!!
Who wants to hold Gier down while I give him a beating?

Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Thursday, 6 March 2003 18:43 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

stevem to thread!

Don King, Thursday, 6 March 2003 18:59 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Sonic Youth - Day Dream Nation
Acid House
Nirvana - Bleach/Nevermind
Slint - Spiderland
Pixies - Doolittle
Detroit Techno
808 State
Public Enemy
Big Black
Happy Mondays
Spacemen 3
Massive Attack
Primal Scream
My Bloody Valentine
lots of great albums by those bands and more.
Do you dismiss each and every one?

I am not saying I dismiss all music from that era (for instance, Crowded House and Jellyfish made their best records then)

But out of the ones you mention Primal Scream, and to some extent Massive Attack, are the only ones I like. Generally the 87-91 era was too much about rhythm and noise and not enough about melody and harmony.

Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Thursday, 6 March 2003 22:38 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

If Dodgy weren't Britpop because they started making records before the period then that kinda kills Pulp and Blur as well doesn't it?

Dodgy never changed their musical style. Blur did. Blur more or less "invented" Britpop on "Modern Life Is Rubbish" (although Suede should get some credit for that too)

As for Pulp, well, maybe they weren't really Britpop. In fact, they were just playing the kind of Bowie/Roxy Music-influenced style that was so popular when they started out in the mid 80s, and for some reason they never broke through until that kind of music became fashionable again because of Britpop.

Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Thursday, 6 March 2003 22:41 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

No, I am completely indifferent when it comes to the rhythm section (unless it gets so dominant that it starts dominating - then I hate it). A drummer's only job is to keep the pulse.

Someone may already have asked this but do you tap your foot or nod your head at all when you listen to music? If so, why?


David (David), Thursday, 6 March 2003 23:19 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Aw, man, there are like at least four that are you on here.

(I am playing find the unconvincing, hastily concocted pseudonym)

Ferg (Ferg), Thursday, 6 March 2003 23:47 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Massive Attack, Bjork, the Chemical Brothers and the entire dance scene was what was really happening

Your definition of what was "really happening" in the mid-90s couldn't be any more Britpop if it tried...

Venga, Friday, 7 March 2003 00:59 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

tiger were fucking great

schnell schnell, Friday, 7 March 2003 19:20 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

808 State were flying the flag for melody in electronic dance music between '87 and '91 (evidence: clarinet of 'Pacific State', the flute in 'Olympic'), then beyond, along with a chunk of the Chicago and Detroit merchants (May, Frankie Knuckles, Marshall Jefferson etc.) - although their prime motivation was surely rhythm they all had a very strong sense of the use of melody and deployed it very well.

'87-'91 was for me the most exciting time for music in my lifetime in terms of innovation and experimentation, perhaps not so much melody and harmony and quality MOR/AOR (tcha, big loss eh?). Geir's conviction that melody and harmony are automatically superior to rhythm and noise by definition do not match my own views obviously.

stevem (blueski), Monday, 10 March 2003 20:38 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Massive Attack, Bjork, the Chemical Brothers and the entire dance scene was what was really happening
Your definition of what was "really happening" in the mid-90s couldn't be any more Britpop if it tried...

the way the big dance-based acts are attached to the Britpop concept is irritating, partly for me because i felt it was very much a 'them and us' conflict that prevailed throughout most of the 90s i.e. there were indie kids and there were ravers and never the twain shall meet, until the Chemical Brothers broke thru i guess. it was good that the likes of Tom n' Ed broke down that pathetic barrier but it always felt like it was more a case of the rockist indiekids finally starting to 'get' dance music rather than ravers discovering guitars (dare i say the dance fans were that bit more open-minded, given they were into what was genuinely a new thing? i would but its a horrendous generalisation on both counts)

stevem (blueski), Monday, 10 March 2003 20:44 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

The Bloomsbury set, Suzy? You and like, Avril? Really? And yes, there was a Riot/Britpop connection, mainly through Blur and Huggy Bears weird anti-symbiotic relationship, but I don't think S*M*A*S*H were the link. I was also, need I say, there (if there's a there there which there bleeding wasn't).

Jim Eaton-Terry (Jim E-T), Wednesday, 12 March 2003 13:24 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

>"the way the big dance-based acts are attached to the Britpop concept is irritating, partly for me because i felt it was very much a 'them and us' conflict that prevailed throughout most of the 90s i.e. there were indie kids and there were ravers and never the twain shall meet, until the Chemical Brothers broke thru i guess. it was good that the likes of Tom n' Ed broke down that pathetic barrier but it always felt like it was more a case of the rockist indiekids finally starting to 'get' dance music rather than ravers discovering guitars (dare i say the dance fans were that bit more open-minded, given they were into what was genuinely a new thing? i would but its a horrendous generalisation on both counts)"

Balls. That whole rock/dance thing was dead and buried by 92 - I remember bumping into loads of the britpop lot on the Brighton scene in '91 - and going to Trance Europe Express a bit later. The line was totally blurred - especially as britpop came out of Sarah, to some extent, and most of the Sarah fandom were loved up by the turn of the '90s (at least round my way).

Jim Eaton-Terry (Jim E-T), Wednesday, 12 March 2003 13:31 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

I posted some thoughts about Britpop on CoM today. I haven't attempted to define or analyse; just some semi-random reminiscing about what it/the '90s meant to Laura and myself, in a vaguely therapeutic attempt to say goodbye. Also an excuse to take a couple of weeks' break from CoM - less time to devote to it at present due to increased social life and imminent monthly workload from Uncut, plus I want to do some admin work on the site (i.e. a proper index!).

Marcello Carlin, Wednesday, 12 March 2003 13:36 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

one year passes...
....bwahahahahahaha!

Vagina Wolf, Friday, 23 July 2004 00:54 (twelve years ago) Permalink

this thread is giving me a rash

purple patch (electricsound), Friday, 23 July 2004 01:23 (twelve years ago) Permalink

one year passes...
"The whole of Rolling Stone discourse is predicated on the baby-boomer myth that something great-but-unsustainable happened in the 60s. Everything is fitted to that. It justifies the lifestyles of the editors and businesspersonss who made their pile exploiting that culture. Rock music is reduced to an adolescent outburst that "must" succumb to capitalist business-as-usual" (Ben Watson).

Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Friday, 12 August 2005 07:55 (eleven years ago) Permalink

isn't ben watson that menk guy who likes zappa?

N_RQ, Friday, 12 August 2005 08:18 (eleven years ago) Permalink

Ben Watson's a charming chap and I'm doing a conference with him next week so trying it is inadvisable.

Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Friday, 12 August 2005 08:19 (eleven years ago) Permalink

He's right, though, isn't he? Keeping the corpse of Britpop unburied just to subsidise John "Wurzel" Harris' lifestyle.

Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Friday, 12 August 2005 08:20 (eleven years ago) Permalink

he said some stupid shit about reynolds' book (which i don't even *like* that much). i don't know, i can't be bothered to disinter why watson put quote-marks around 'must', or why it is 'myth' that x happened in the '60s. clearly, this is no myth as generally construed; but everything for BW is myth unless it conforms to his own narrow interpretation of cultural politics.

N_RQ, Friday, 12 August 2005 08:24 (eleven years ago) Permalink

In that review he's wrong about Frankie/Horn/Morley/ZTT and also about Dexy's, but I pretty much agree with what he says about the book in general - where's the Simon in that meticulous history? Where's the involvement? Even when there's no involvement a good historian should be able to conjure up an environment where you can imagine them being in the middle of it (e.g. DT's Rosebud fantasia - and DT's a zillion times better at expressing how His Youth comes into the story). I just found it dull, non-inflammatory; sorry SR but critical probity must take precedence over friendship.

Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Friday, 12 August 2005 08:30 (eleven years ago) Permalink

though of course the deployment of Adorno is so off the mark that...

Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Friday, 12 August 2005 08:31 (eleven years ago) Permalink

as i say, i managed to like the review less than the book, and it even made me like the book a bit more (for me it's not all bad because it isn't common knowledge as it probably is for you).

the tone seemed weirdly spiteful, beyond all other considerations.

N_RQ, Friday, 12 August 2005 08:35 (eleven years ago) Permalink

Pardon my ignorance but who is John "Wurzel" Harris?

Is it the geyser who played guitar for Motorhead?

If so, he looks to me as if the requirements of his lifestyle actually require extremely substantial subsidy.

Albeit briefly.

Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Friday, 12 August 2005 08:35 (eleven years ago) Permalink

No it is John Harris the music journalist currently manfully trying to branch out in his career. However, he is hampered by the fact that he resembles a Wurzel. If you look at him on Newsnight Review you'll see what I mean. They should put a bucket on his head so that children staying up late as a special treat aren't made unnecessarily upset.

Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Friday, 12 August 2005 08:37 (eleven years ago) Permalink

Now, now.

I clicked on the link, but I couldn't be arsed to read the article, I'm afraid.

Pashmina (Pashmina), Friday, 12 August 2005 08:39 (eleven years ago) Permalink

the morley/harris beef on NNR makes it hard to watch, but they clearly hate each other. i have a soft spot for harris, although he's not really an inspirational force as a writer. i grew up on 'select' (and, indeed, britpop).

haha, pash, i didn't actually read it either!

N_RQ, Friday, 12 August 2005 08:40 (eleven years ago) Permalink

I did read Harris' britpop book a while ago, and I thought it was very good, but do I need to read more about it? eh...

Pashmina (Pashmina), Friday, 12 August 2005 08:42 (eleven years ago) Permalink

that ben w quote is great

mullygrubbr (bulbs), Friday, 12 August 2005 08:42 (eleven years ago) Permalink

I've never previously considered Newsnight Review as a potential source of recommendations for the sort of music I like....

What did they make of the latest Sleater-Kinney album?

(xxxx-post)

Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Friday, 12 August 2005 08:43 (eleven years ago) Permalink

they only do two albums a year, by u2 and whatever else coffee table mercury type stuff comes up (kano, MIA, that kind of thing).

N_RQ, Friday, 12 August 2005 08:46 (eleven years ago) Permalink

OK I just did read it, I should do some work actually.

I can't really think of anything to say about it, though.

Pashmina (Pashmina), Friday, 12 August 2005 08:48 (eleven years ago) Permalink

Of the latest Sleater-Kinney album, Natasha Walter questioned its cultural relevance in the post-feminist milieu of babies and royalty cheques.

Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Friday, 12 August 2005 08:48 (eleven years ago) Permalink

John Harris, The guy who directed Live Forever and the drummer from dodgy rite now on Radio 5.

Hahahahahaha

The drummer from dodgy just complained about being grouped in with Menswear and Sleeper. Hahahahahaha

Jamie T Smith (Jamie T Smith), Friday, 12 August 2005 08:52 (eleven years ago) Permalink

'Do you think they paved the way for the Kaiser Chiefs?'

Hahahahahaha

Jamie T Smith (Jamie T Smith), Friday, 12 August 2005 08:52 (eleven years ago) Permalink

(x-post w/r/2 dodgy)

oof, haha.

that athlete single, as mentioned at the end of the harris piece, ir really fucking bad.

Pashmina (Pashmina), Friday, 12 August 2005 08:53 (eleven years ago) Permalink

Isn't the drummer from Dodgy now (also?) the singer from Dodgy?

Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Friday, 12 August 2005 08:53 (eleven years ago) Permalink

athlete are fucking dire.

N_RQ, Friday, 12 August 2005 08:54 (eleven years ago) Permalink

http://www.bbc.co.uk/fivelive

'At the end of the day it's just whether it was good music'

The drummer from dodgy is a rockist!

Jamie T Smith (Jamie T Smith), Friday, 12 August 2005 08:54 (eleven years ago) Permalink

"Of the latest Sleater-Kinney album, Natasha Walter questioned its cultural relevance in the post-feminist milieu of babies and royalty cheques."

I thought that myself.

Well, that and the fact that the EQ's absolutely dreadful.

Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Friday, 12 August 2005 08:55 (eleven years ago) Permalink

I have to say that, in my extensive experience of scanning the music sections of South London charity shops, Dodgy are nearly always grouped in with Menswear and Sleeper.

Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Friday, 12 August 2005 08:55 (eleven years ago) Permalink

'good enough', and the video for same, was about as britpop as it fucking gets.

N_RQ, Friday, 12 August 2005 08:58 (eleven years ago) Permalink

Does "10p or less" actually count as a music category 'though?

(x-post)

Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Friday, 12 August 2005 08:59 (eleven years ago) Permalink

I haven't gone back into the ancient history of the thread up above, just heard the hilarity on the radio and thought I'd post, but the last word on it all, I think belongs to Edwyn Collins.

From the youngsters who've just learned to shave
to the oldsters raving on their graves
it's the same old story, England's glory,
claiming back the union jack, my arse!

Jamie T Smith (Jamie T Smith), Friday, 12 August 2005 08:59 (eleven years ago) Permalink

Actually I was always quite fond of Dodgy.

Far more so that I was of Menswear or Sleeper anyway.

Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Friday, 12 August 2005 09:00 (eleven years ago) Permalink

This is one of the priceless threads of ilm, actually. I always 'ave a larf reading through it when it pops up to the top again.

x-post - the shame of admitting it, but that "water under the bridge" tune they did was pretty nice IIRC.

Pashmina (Pashmina), Friday, 12 August 2005 09:01 (eleven years ago) Permalink

dodgy had that acid jazz connection stew.

mullygrubbr (bulbs), Friday, 12 August 2005 09:03 (eleven years ago) Permalink

Tuesday 16th August 2005 - Britpop night on BBC4:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcfour/listings/index.shtml?day=tuesday&service_id=4544

8:30 pm The Britpop Story

John Harris charts the rise of Britpop, its brief romance with New Labour, the emergence of the 'new lad' culture, and the legacy Britpop has left behind.

9:00 pm Britpop Now

Damon Albarn presents a compilation of live performances from Britpop acts originally recorded on 16 August 1995, including Blur, Supergrass, Elastica and Menswear.

9:45 pm Live Forever: Storyville

Live Forever charts the sounds that defined the real mood of the 90s, offering an alternative history of the period and a more intriguing vision of Britain and its music. Strong language. [S]

11:10 pm Pulp: No Sleep Till Sheffield

In 1995, the BBC followed Jarvis Cocker and Pulp as they charmed their way around Britain, having finally become popular after many years of trying.

11:45 pm The Britpop Story

John Harris charts the rise of Britpop, its brief romance with New Labour, the emergence of the 'new lad' culture, and the legacy Britpop has left behind.

12:15 am Later: Stanley Road Revisited

Ten years on, Paul Weller reflects on what he considers the high point of his solo career, the million-selling Stanley Road album. Strong language. [S].

koogs (koogs), Friday, 12 August 2005 09:19 (eleven years ago) Permalink

wow. reading this whole thread again. it's just glorious.

Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Friday, 12 August 2005 10:00 (eleven years ago) Permalink

Live Forever charts the sounds that defined the real mood of the 90s, offering an alternative history of the period and a more intriguing vision of Britain and its music.

Once again They seem to have mistaken 'Live Forever' for the Channel 4 docu 'A London Sumting Dis'

Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Friday, 12 August 2005 10:02 (eleven years ago) Permalink

"Live Forever charts the sounds that defined the real mood of the 90s, offering an alternative history of the period and a more intriguing vision of Britain and its music."
Once again They seem to have mistaken 'Live Forever' for the Channel 4 docu 'A London Sumting Dis'

-- Sociah T Azzahole (stevem7...), August 12th, 2005.

well, there is no 'defining' sound. i reckon pop house and rnb outsold both britpop and the often-touted better music we Should All Have Been Listening To (jungle, dnb, trip hop, etc etc). it's wrong to say any musical form is a 'more valid' index of 'where britain's at' than another.
and at least britpop did have a major public following.

N_RQ, Friday, 12 August 2005 10:12 (eleven years ago) Permalink

it's wrong to say any musical form is a 'more valid' index of 'where britain's at' than another.

yep, and that's what Britpop Night will be doing.

Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Friday, 12 August 2005 10:13 (eleven years ago) Permalink

i don't think it will. the doc 'live forever' doesn't -- it at least acknowledges trip hop. and methinks damon albarn will be pissing on his old chips here too.

N_RQ, Friday, 12 August 2005 10:19 (eleven years ago) Permalink

Yes, it acknowledges trip hop, i.e. three second commentary of "therewasalsomassiveattackportisheadtrickygoldie" over a shot of a motorway at night how original.

Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Friday, 12 August 2005 10:29 (eleven years ago) Permalink

i like britpop

dog latin (dog latin), Friday, 12 August 2005 10:30 (eleven years ago) Permalink

marcello -- it is a film about britpop. but it doesn't say britpop was the only show in town. if it went into detail on trip hop, it wouldn't be a film about britpop. if it ignored trip hop altogether, there would be a stronger case against it.

N_RQ, Friday, 12 August 2005 10:33 (eleven years ago) Permalink

it was so fucking ridiculous. it was so fucking ridiculous.

such a banal choice. blur vs oasis. rank piss vs shit.

mullygrubbr (bulbs), Friday, 12 August 2005 10:35 (eleven years ago) Permalink

i kind of think many of the more vocal haters wish it was 'alex reece vs goldie' on the front pages.

N_RQ, Friday, 12 August 2005 10:36 (eleven years ago) Permalink

trip hop/bristol was/is far more deserving of a film about it than britpop.

Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Friday, 12 August 2005 10:37 (eleven years ago) Permalink

that's another issue, though.

N_RQ, Friday, 12 August 2005 10:39 (eleven years ago) Permalink

although a nonfawning/unUNcUTty type film that focussed on HOW SHIT it was and HOW HYPED it was might be good

mullygrubbr (bulbs), Friday, 12 August 2005 10:41 (eleven years ago) Permalink

if you're only going to give trip hop three gratuitous token seconds then you might as well not bother at all. they should have called it: "britpop - any colour as long as it's white."

Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Friday, 12 August 2005 10:43 (eleven years ago) Permalink

anyone who remembers the britrockpress and compares it to the records or ever had a fight at the good fucking mixer over fucking shirt/hair styles might think reavaluation = worse than generally remembered

mullygrubbr (bulbs), Friday, 12 August 2005 10:45 (eleven years ago) Permalink

well, the film has quite a lot of auto-critique from jarvis and damon, yeah? you could just as easily do a doc on what a puffed-up tit ltj bukem was; i would def be up for a good, irreverent (as irreverent as 'live forever' doc) on dnb, but it would almost inevitably be done in c4 fawning style (this is innovative: it is important: and YOU all ignored it). britpop being retro and, let's face it, crap, means that entertaining films can be made about it.

i think it's kind of trying it a bit hard to say, because britpop musicians were all white (in a 95% white population) and were not influenced by post-hip-hop/acid house black american styles, they are necessarily racist. i don't hear a big 'black' influence in the sex pistols either.

N_RQ, Friday, 12 August 2005 10:48 (eleven years ago) Permalink

Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Friday, 12 August 2005 10:53 (eleven years ago) Permalink

also: the britpop-was-so-laddish meme never squared with my experience. i didn't see how it was more macho than jungle, for example.

N_RQ, Friday, 12 August 2005 10:55 (eleven years ago) Permalink

i think a lot of shit gets thrown at britpop that it just doesn't deserve. NRQ on the money.

dog latin (dog latin), Friday, 12 August 2005 11:02 (eleven years ago) Permalink

who really gave a fuck about the media by this time. the nme was SO obviously retarded visavis britrockk that arguments about laddishness were but a side order. similarly the hype and exponetial surge of "dance" mags lead you to believe that dnb was an amazing new frontier.

difference was - dnb came up with some astonishing records. britrock rubbed its cock in the slim up'n'down camdon lock.

mullygrubbr (bulbs), Friday, 12 August 2005 11:03 (eleven years ago) Permalink

or to put it more straight (and watchout indie tendancies here) britrock = the new corporate rock and had the corporate media muscle wheras the bristol and dnb crews had to rely on somthing else

mullygrubbr (bulbs), Friday, 12 August 2005 11:08 (eleven years ago) Permalink

ie listen

mullygrubbr (bulbs), Friday, 12 August 2005 11:09 (eleven years ago) Permalink

difference was - dnb came up with some astonishing records. britrock rubbed its cock in the slim up'n'down camdon lock.

-- mullygrubbr (fan...), August 12th, 2005.

yeah, well, that just like, your opinion, man.

also: no media push for trip hop and dnb? ahahahahahahahahaha!

N_RQ, Friday, 12 August 2005 11:41 (eleven years ago) Permalink

i never said no media push. i just said no corprate media push. although that came too. :(

mullygrubbr (bulbs), Friday, 12 August 2005 11:46 (eleven years ago) Permalink

ie britpop was always a media invention. dnb/bristol became one.

mullygrubbr (bulbs), Friday, 12 August 2005 11:48 (eleven years ago) Permalink

i reckons goldie had a fairly big media push. i dunno which corporations may or may not have been involved, though. but it's not like britpop (or any musical form) was simply an invention of the EVIL CORPORATE MEDIA designed to make wite kids into budding white supremacists. there's a dialectic between music genuinely catching on among record-buyers and the media taking it up (and inventing bands like kula shaker). breakbeat forms, famously, were not a big popular success. (more popular than the charts would indicate, but still.)

xpost: bullshit, britpop was not from the start a media invention.

N_RQ, Friday, 12 August 2005 11:51 (eleven years ago) Permalink

Britpop killed off, maybe permanently, any notion of "alternative" British music. Now everything which doesn't fit into the cost-cutting corporate agenda for change languishes on the margins, and stays there. The BPI can't afford not to know what music's doing. No more 1967/77/81/88 getting caught unawares. It's all sewn up.

Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Friday, 12 August 2005 11:54 (eleven years ago) Permalink

b-b-but marcello, what about GRIME?

N_RQ, Friday, 12 August 2005 11:55 (eleven years ago) Permalink

ok then i revise my position just to say - in my opinion britpop = almost totally unmitigated shit. and if you belive it was some kind of grassroots expression of creativity that caught the publics attention without great corporate pressure then ok nrq. i hope you enjoy it still.

mullygrubbr (bulbs), Friday, 12 August 2005 12:08 (eleven years ago) Permalink

EVIL CORPORATE MEDIA designed to make wite kids into budding white supremacists.

and...ah?

mullygrubbr (bulbs), Friday, 12 August 2005 12:10 (eleven years ago) Permalink

er, no, i think it's shit too!

but the concept of " grassroots expression of creativity " as opposed to OH NOES CORPORATE THROAT-RAM is like, totally, not adequate.

N_RQ, Friday, 12 August 2005 12:10 (eleven years ago) Permalink

by all means hate britpop and love whatyou love, just don't try to argue what you like is more 'authentic' in this clapped-out way. (also the 'britpop = racists' thing can fuck off: evidence, please).

N_RQ, Friday, 12 August 2005 12:11 (eleven years ago) Permalink

Why is it such a bad thing to have music that's not overtly influenced by music made by black people? Putting aside that you might not like the resulting music, the fact that it only has so called white influences isn't a valid criticism on it's own.

Seems to me that the problem people have is not with the bands lumped under Britpop per se but rather the media's coverage of it to the exclusion of all else. Until we have enough distance to seperate out the records that Blur, Pulp, Elastica, Supergrass, Boo Radleys, Oasis et al made from the media bollocks that surrounded it they won't be fairly judged on their musical merits.

mms (mms), Friday, 12 August 2005 12:13 (eleven years ago) Permalink

This has all already been said earlier on this thread (by the same people!) surely?

Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Friday, 12 August 2005 12:14 (eleven years ago) Permalink

Set up by racists, publicised and performed by racists, and grime has been such a shattering commercial success hasn't it? Not like Goldfrapp!

Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Friday, 12 August 2005 12:15 (eleven years ago) Permalink

mmm, white people not making overly 'black-influenced' music. perhaps there could be a separate thread on this strangely untouched theme.

N_RQ, Friday, 12 August 2005 12:17 (eleven years ago) Permalink

Maybe, but if it were a choice between Prodigy/Portishead and Menswear/Sleeper, it would be, as the meme goes, a fucking no-brainer.

Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Friday, 12 August 2005 12:25 (eleven years ago) Permalink

sure, *if that's the choice*.

N_RQ, Friday, 12 August 2005 12:26 (eleven years ago) Permalink

ah ok nrq i seem to have bin arguing at a tangent somewhat then. i have no "racist beef" with britpop. i have no "authentic" argument re jungle.
i do belive that the media push for britpop came from corporate backing. i also belive that the media push for jungle (ah, here we go...d'n'b) turned into a corp (and not so successful) backing. this is not an authenticity argument. it has to do with how much you "see" of a form. and how much you "see" = "how much you get"

grassroots = just me knee jerking to an argument you weren't actually making i guess.

mullygrubbr (bulbs), Friday, 12 August 2005 12:28 (eleven years ago) Permalink

basically i don't think anything can be purely grassroots (for longer than five minutes), but that no corporate machine can ultimately foist on a whim a given musical style. i don't think people in music marketing are that good at it; otherwise they wouldn't sign so many acts which just disappear. britpop had *more* media muscle behind it, but in part that's because, probably imo, it had more sales potential than dnb. trip hop had huge sales potential and stuff like dido or gem still bares the traces of that.

N_RQ, Friday, 12 August 2005 12:32 (eleven years ago) Permalink

THATS NOT TRIP HOP ;(

mullygrubbr (bulbs), Friday, 12 August 2005 12:34 (eleven years ago) Permalink

the point is that 40-year-old record buyers in dorking think it IS trip hop!

Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Friday, 12 August 2005 12:37 (eleven years ago) Permalink

it's got a trip hop element.

N_RQ, Friday, 12 August 2005 12:38 (eleven years ago) Permalink

and whilst i wouldn't necessarily make an argument for corps making or breaking a particular artist i might suggest that seeding the media re a particular "style" or "new movemnet" might work...

xpost

mullygrubbr (bulbs), Friday, 12 August 2005 12:38 (eleven years ago) Permalink

i'm not sure Dido or Jem have ANY tangible trip-hop element.

Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Friday, 12 August 2005 12:43 (eleven years ago) Permalink

mid tempo quasi hip hop beats.

mullygrubbr (bulbs), Friday, 12 August 2005 12:48 (eleven years ago) Permalink

one year passes...
Britpop was still a damn good idea. Not for sociological reasons (what with all that "Cool Britania" bollocks anyway? What did it mean? Was there any point?), but for solely musical reasons.

Spice Girls & co may have knocked Britpop out of the mainstream, but the retained the pop melody. Which has never disappeared afterwards. Britpop put a definite end to the era when a "pop song" was supposed to be something made around a repetitive synth theme, adding a thumping bass drum, a gospel influenced female vocalist in the chorus (who was not allowed to appear in the video because they'd hire some model instead) and some rapper in the verse. That era has never returned.

Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Thursday, 21 September 2006 00:41 (ten years ago) Permalink

Sadly, he will be the next Alexis Petridish. (Dom Passantino), Thursday, 21 September 2006 00:44 (ten years ago) Permalink

YOU'RE KILLING ME

electric sound of jim [and why not] (electricsound), Thursday, 21 September 2006 00:54 (ten years ago) Permalink

XPOST

electric sound of jim [and why not] (electricsound), Thursday, 21 September 2006 00:55 (ten years ago) Permalink

BritPop sucked...and on reevalutation...it still sucks.

END OF THREAD.

Paul Edward Wagemann (PaulEdwardWagemann), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 20:27 (ten years ago) Permalink

Sadly, he will be the next Alexis Petridish. (Dom Passantino), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 20:31 (ten years ago) Permalink

Paul Edward Wagemann sucked...and on re-evaluation... he still sucks.

PLEASE PUT HIM OUT OF MY MISERY

winter testing (winter testing), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 20:36 (ten years ago) Permalink

Shit then, shit now.

Paul Edward Wagemann OTM.

People act like traditional pop wouldn't have existed anymore if this (bowel) movement hadn't come along, it's ridiculous.

Thank god for guerilla gigs or we'd all be listening to minimal house & crunk'n'b obviously...

dance dance counter-revolution (fandango), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 20:46 (ten years ago) Permalink

we are all listening to minimal house. your point?

also, traditional pop - wossat then?

winter testing (winter testing), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 20:48 (ten years ago) Permalink

do you think Madchester and the whole Tony Wilson 'wake up America, you're dead' fuelled excitement sweeping the UK in 1990 was actually a much more genuine and likeable statement of 'we're British and we're great' than the Britpop phase?

i do.

-- stevem

I do too.

dance dance counter-revolution (fandango), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 20:48 (ten years ago) Permalink

xpost - My point is that the best, most interesting acts (subjective obv.) from this era didn't even need Britpop yet their success is entirely attributed to it in retrospect.

dance dance counter-revolution (fandango), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 20:50 (ten years ago) Permalink

No Libertines, No Lily Allen. or not as the case may be.

dance dance counter-revolution (fandango), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 20:51 (ten years ago) Permalink

Depends what Britpop is/was. I have some nostalgia for the era but then I was 16-19 and everyone's nostalgic for their late teens. Anyway, there were changes happening, whether you ascribe them to , which was about participation & possibilities. If Oasis/ Blair could write songs/ get a record deal/ be PM etc , than so could I and you and your mum. Libertines and Lily Allen wouldn't have broken through without that initial loosening of the degrees of separation between PerformerArtist & ConsumerPublic

winter testing (winter testing), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 21:09 (ten years ago) Permalink

"I just wonder how Scottish people felt about 'Britpop'"

All-time greatest Scot contender Edwyn Collins did a song about it at the time:

"Its the same old story,
Englands glory,
Claming back the Union Jack my arse"

everything (everything), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 21:11 (ten years ago) Permalink

Britpop was the same old same old pop with added oddly white/reactionary "good OLD rock'n'roll" bollocks attached to it to me.

It never rang true from the start for me, and it felt like CLEARLY announced from the start too, unlike the natural progression of Madchester etc.

It also bugged me how it led to Northerners being thick monkeys and Southerners being clever cockneys all over again.

Of course it's totally fair to point out that the US "invasion" was waning, and yes the guitar element of the "summer of love" did seem to have fallen apart rather, as did the Hacienda dream.... still a moment of weakness hardly excuses a vicious ideological pounce & reinforcing of some *very* dubious 'values' I hardly feel any more refreshed by in the 00's than I did then.

Anyone sick of their Cigarettes and Alcohol yet?

I'm nostalgic for the early 90's too, but Britpop's "nostalgia" felt poisonous and manufactured from the word go.

Something does occur to me though... "Blinded By The Lights" vs. "Sorted for E's & Wizz"?

Maybe these thigns do come in waves but I'm wondering what exactly DID give the Britpop 2.0 movement such impetus? What was THAT reacting to? Destiny's Child?

dance dance counter-revolution (fandango), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 21:33 (ten years ago) Permalink

too much whitespace sorry

dance dance counter-revolution (fandango), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 21:34 (ten years ago) Permalink

Swells assault and takedown of the Happy Mondays vs. the blind eye turned to The Zutons "Glastonbury? Kylie is for the gays!" etc etc

dance dance counter-revolution (fandango), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 21:36 (ten years ago) Permalink

sorry winter testing I feel like I hardly responded to the most interesting of your points there :( (depends how much you buy the Libs and L'Allen as grass roots movements tho!)

dance dance counter-revolution (fandango), Wednesday, 27 September 2006 21:38 (ten years ago) Permalink

we are all listening to minimal house.
we are all listening to minimal house.
we are all listening to minimal house.
we are all listening to minimal house.
we are all listening to minimal house.
we are all listening to minimal house.
we are all listening to minimal house.
we are all listening to minimal house.
we are all listening to minimal house.
we are all listening to minimal house.
we are all listening to minimal house.

EARLY-90S MAN (Enrique), Thursday, 28 September 2006 07:42 (ten years ago) Permalink

not all of us.

Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Thursday, 28 September 2006 07:44 (ten years ago) Permalink

Were Cast ,Bluetones & Shed 7 etc underrated?

I'm dying here.

Leopold Boom! (noodle vague), Thursday, 28 September 2006 07:47 (ten years ago) Permalink

are winter testing and dance dance counter-revolution "friends of louis"?

EARLY-90S MAN (Enrique), Thursday, 28 September 2006 07:54 (ten years ago) Permalink

Now then now then, as it 'appens, is it time for like a critical reevaluation of the groovy MerseyBEAT 'cos it like seems to be a dirty word for the last 67 years owowowo God rest my S0-WEL Uncle Ted?

Was, like, the Merseybeat groovy guy geezer guy geezers really the sound of the young Britain what I was grooving away to in them days of dearie Lord dearie Lord? Were there any ace records from the hit paRADE of the time? Would you 'ave got like ten points if you recalled the Trem El Oes, Billy J Kramer and like what his DaKOtas and grooviest of all groovy guy geezer guy geezers, Swinging Blue Jeans The?

Jimmy Saveloy (nostudium), Thursday, 28 September 2006 07:57 (ten years ago) Permalink

Nobody disses the Tremeloes on my watch.

Leopold Boom! (noodle vague), Thursday, 28 September 2006 08:01 (ten years ago) Permalink


we are all friends of Louis
we are all friends of Louis
we are all friends of Louis
we are all friends of Louis
we are all friends of Louis
we are all friends of Louis
we are all friends of Louis
we are all friends of Louis
we are all friends of Louis
we are all friends of Louis

winter testing (winter testing), Thursday, 28 September 2006 17:14 (ten years ago) Permalink

I think lil' Louis has shown admirable tenacity, or masochism, in sticking around considering the whipping he gets. I wouldn't have.

trance pants devolution (fandango), Thursday, 28 September 2006 19:36 (ten years ago) Permalink

Cast, Bluetones & Shed 7 were probably underberated.

trance pants devolution (fandango), Thursday, 28 September 2006 19:38 (ten years ago) Permalink

five months pass...
JARVIS: ''BRITPOP WAS RUBBISH''

http://www.playlouder.com/news/~jarvis-britpop-w/

djmartian, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 16:17 (ten years ago) Permalink

I just wonder how Scottish people felt about 'Britpop'

Scotland's in Britain

Tom D., Wednesday, 7 March 2007 16:21 (ten years ago) Permalink

BRITISH PUBLIC: "NEW JARVIS ALBUM IS RUBBISH"

Marcello Carlin, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 16:22 (ten years ago) Permalink

Oh, so Jarvis and BDitto are recording their massively sucsessful duet then.

Mark G, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 16:23 (ten years ago) Permalink

... link please?

Tom D., Wednesday, 7 March 2007 16:23 (ten years ago) Permalink

Jarvis Cocker "PLEAES PAY ATTENTION TO ME PLEASE PLEAS PLEAS WILL SUCK DICK FOR PRESS COVERAGE"

Dom Passantino, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 16:24 (ten years ago) Permalink

.... xpost

Tom D., Wednesday, 7 March 2007 16:24 (ten years ago) Permalink

How did Scottish people feel about Britpop?
18 WHEELER

Marcello Carlin, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 16:26 (ten years ago) Permalink

I just wonder how Scottish people felt about 'Britpop'

Scotland's in Britain

lol

jim, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 16:26 (ten years ago) Permalink


PISCES: BRITPOP WAS NOT RUBBISH

http://images.quizilla.com/S/star-spangled-genocide/1036873452_youaremlir.gif

pisces, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 16:49 (ten years ago) Permalink

do you think Madchester and the whole Tony Wilson 'wake up America, you're dead' fuelled excitement sweeping the UK in 1990 was actually a much more genuine and likeable statement of 'we're British and we're great' than the Britpop phase?
i do.

stevem (blueski) on Tuesday, 4 March 2003 16:56 (4 years ago)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

full story ( by Steve Sutherland, from Melody Maker, 4th August 1990 ) here:

http://dewit.ca/archs/JD/New_York_Story.html

pisces, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 17:10 (ten years ago) Permalink

The thread title will one day need updated to include Britpop II.

Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 21:18 (ten years ago) Permalink

Trouble about Madchester was that, even though there was some good music, there was also a lot of crap around. Sure, The Stone Roses' debut will always remain a classic. And some great stuff from Charlatans too. On the other hand, Happy Mondays were very, very, very overrated.

Geir Hongro, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 22:13 (ten years ago) Permalink

There was a HELL of a lot of crap with Britpop. And the countries music scene still hasn't recovered because of it judging by the state of The NME and these bands in the charts.

Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 22:17 (ten years ago) Permalink

Shed Seven and Northern Uproar did at least have proper tunes with proper verses and choruses. As opposed to Happy Mondays with their "let's just shout something over the backing track" approach.

Geir Hongro, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 22:57 (ten years ago) Permalink

oh geirpaws

Shakey Mo Collier, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 22:59 (ten years ago) Permalink

I've said it before, it b'ain't the real Hongro.

Noodle Vague, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 23:02 (ten years ago) Permalink

Unfair to lump Shed Seven in with that Northern Uproar rabble. I listened to 'Dolphin' earlier although it is labelled 'Dolphin '99' - not sure how much more 'advanced' it is from the original of five years before. I don't like that one they did about The Link tho.

blueski, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 23:19 (ten years ago) Permalink

I've said it before, it b'ain't the real stevem.

Dom Passantino, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 23:26 (ten years ago) Permalink

That can't be stevem

Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Thursday, 8 March 2007 02:08 (ten years ago) Permalink

I'm surprised even Geir liked Northern Uproar. I see Ocean Colour Scene have a new album due. |Those fuckers just wont go away.

Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Thursday, 8 March 2007 02:09 (ten years ago) Permalink

I turned on the TV and an advert was using a Dodgy song.

Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Thursday, 8 March 2007 10:48 (ten years ago) Permalink

I don't like Northern Uproar. I just like Happy Mondays less.

Geir Hongro, Thursday, 8 March 2007 10:49 (ten years ago) Permalink

Dodgy and Ocean Colour Scene were great though. Great in a 70s softrock way, and you can't get much greater than that, really.

Geir Hongro, Thursday, 8 March 2007 10:49 (ten years ago) Permalink

Ocean Colour Scene were just an uncalled-for dirty night with Chris de Burgh and Golden Earring.

Marcello Carlin, Thursday, 8 March 2007 11:05 (ten years ago) Permalink

Which would make Dodgy a handjob from Arthur Mullard and Paper Lace.

Noodle Vague, Thursday, 8 March 2007 11:50 (ten years ago) Permalink

Well, to me they sound a lot more like intelligent and musically sophisticated softrock such as ELO, 10cc, Klaatu or Supertramp.

Geir Hongro, Thursday, 8 March 2007 12:10 (ten years ago) Permalink

Paul Edward Wagemann OTM.

oh, fandangopaws!

unfished business, Thursday, 8 March 2007 13:03 (ten years ago) Permalink

Ocean Colour Scene and Dodgy were awful (staying out for the summer was quite good, but Good Enough was the worst big britpop song of all)

Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Thursday, 8 March 2007 13:04 (ten years ago) Permalink

Good Enough was the worst big britpop song of all

I kinda agree with this (even if it looks like a work of genius next to The Automatic), but it IS by far the worst track on Free Peace Sweet, which if viewed by the objective ears of an impressionable 10 year-old (i.e. ME aged 10) isn't actually all that bad! Many of the songs still hold up strongly today, such as If You're Thinking Of Me, UKRIP, Homegrown and One Of Those Rivers. In fact, it's an album whose second half is immeasurably superior to its first. I suspect most people judged it on Good Enough (ugh) or In A Room (meh).

unfished business, Thursday, 8 March 2007 13:10 (ten years ago) Permalink

Even a stopped clock total cock gives the right time twice a day otm... now & then :-p

fandango, Thursday, 8 March 2007 13:10 (ten years ago) Permalink

I LIKE THE BOREDOMS TOO DONT HATE ME

unfished business, Thursday, 8 March 2007 13:10 (ten years ago) Permalink

this is where posters like Geir are invaluable; they offer up an unbiased perspective to the sort of music that the average ILMer would shun out of hand.

unfished business, Thursday, 8 March 2007 13:13 (ten years ago) Permalink

"unbiased"

Noodle Vague, Thursday, 8 March 2007 13:14 (ten years ago) Permalink

"invaluable"

Tom D., Thursday, 8 March 2007 13:19 (ten years ago) Permalink

"Geir"

Noodle Vague, Thursday, 8 March 2007 13:20 (ten years ago) Permalink

maybe i was wrong about 'unbiased', but he's certainly willing to see the good in dodgy (if not in, say, mbv)

unfished business, Thursday, 8 March 2007 13:22 (ten years ago) Permalink

They probably didn't do themselves many favours by (a) their name; (b) Matthew Priest dicking about on too many Buzzcocks episodes but their first three albums were decent enough.

Marcello Carlin, Thursday, 8 March 2007 13:28 (ten years ago) Permalink

I'm more willing to see the dodgy in good (xp)

Tom D., Thursday, 8 March 2007 13:29 (ten years ago) Permalink

"music"

Frogman Henry, Thursday, 8 March 2007 13:32 (ten years ago) Permalink

But Marcello can't even defend OCS.

Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Thursday, 8 March 2007 13:37 (ten years ago) Permalink

If You're Thinking Of Me, In A Room, Making The Most Of, Melodies Haunt You, So Let Me Go Far - all excellent. Dodgy were considered a bit of a boring band back then but I think they'd fit in quite nicely next to the Kooks, The Fratellis etc if they were around these days.

the next grozart, Thursday, 8 March 2007 13:37 (ten years ago) Permalink

Dodgy were considered a bit of a boring band back then but I think they'd fit in quite nicely next to the Kooks, The Fratellis etc if they were around these days

And so, m'lud, the case for the opposition rests...

Tom D., Thursday, 8 March 2007 13:40 (ten years ago) Permalink

Quite so, but I also think Dodgy would kick the arses of said bands.

the next grozart, Thursday, 8 March 2007 13:42 (ten years ago) Permalink

you mean literally in an actual fight?

blueski, Thursday, 8 March 2007 13:47 (ten years ago) Permalink

You see, OCS:

Chris Evans, blokeism, straining sweaty brows, Real Ale guitar solos, king-sized boss waxings, Weller, the wretched Chris de Burgh B-side that is "Day Trip To Bangor" or whatever the bloody song was called, da-DA-di-ya-da-DA da-DA-di-ya-da-DA TFI Fucking Friday with special guests Sharleen Fucking Spiteri and Robbie Bastard Williams...

It's difficult.

Marcello Carlin, Thursday, 8 March 2007 13:48 (ten years ago) Permalink

Dodgy are like the band with the widest gap between the praise accorded to them in the nme/mm issues i read at the time and their actual quality.And consideing the blethering hype given to everyone and his dog in teh mid 90s that's saying something.

Frogman Henry, Thursday, 8 March 2007 13:49 (ten years ago) Permalink

...but I can remember every song off Free Peace Sweet in an instant! Their songs are at the very least more unforgettable than not. Maybe I listened to them at the optimal age for retention, I dunno.

unfished business, Thursday, 8 March 2007 14:42 (ten years ago) Permalink

"Good Enough" I used to love the first 3-4 times I heard it. After that I got sick. But the rest of the "Free Peace Sweet" album is still great. Including "In a Room" which has one of the best middle-eights ever composed.

Geir Hongro, Thursday, 8 March 2007 23:41 (ten years ago) Permalink

And as for OCS, "The Day We Caught The Train" and "You've Got It Bad" are both great pop songs. "The Day We Caught The Train" is the kind of 70s-like complex composition that I really love, and I rank it among the Top 10 songs of the entire Britpop age.

Geir Hongro, Thursday, 8 March 2007 23:44 (ten years ago) Permalink

deciding factor: 90's Britpop >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 00's Britpop

unfished business, Thursday, 8 March 2007 23:49 (ten years ago) Permalink

That's not exactly saying much.

Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Thursday, 8 March 2007 23:52 (ten years ago) Permalink

What is 00s Britpop anyway? I don't consider most of the Nu-Postpunk bands pop at all. Franz Ferdinand and Kaiser Chiefs are both great though.

And, no, Coldplay and Travis aren't Britpop. Great, yes. Britpop, no.

Geir Hongro, Friday, 9 March 2007 10:46 (ten years ago) Permalink

Current Britpop is the slew of shit the NME is still trying to sell us in the ten year wake of the 90s Britpop boom. So really what I'm saying is the UK press latched onto bands like Blur, Oasis and Pulp, found a gap in the market for these bands and created a scene and low and behold it worked. It worked for 3 years pretty much but soon as is with all good things the market got saturated by knock offs versions, poor follow up albums, media overexposure and a general trend for different music.Cue NME burying their heads in the sand: "This is awful! Let's pretend it's not happening! British guitar music is the only thing that sells this paper. It's our bread and butter, so let's get ourselves down the Hope and Anchor and see what we can dig up." And so off they go searching for some kind of Britpop holy grail - a band or scene that will once again make their paper look trendy again. And they come back with Terris, the Klaxons, the Coral and Tiger and invent microscopic non-genres in the vain hope that one of these bands will blow up and become huge. And sometimes it works - seemingly dull and unadventurous bands peddling out standard guitar/bass/drum sounds still shift a few papers among the nation's population of 19 year olds. Pete Doherty is the new Liam Gallagher, Kaiser Chiefs are the new Blur. Great, NME has succeeded - now let's hope this gravy train keeps going. But there's been something going on in the world outside. Times have changed yet national press and radio stay the same, playing bands with little aural scope who could have come out at pretty much any time from 1975 onwards while in real life it's the American indie bands who are striving for wonderment and experimentation. I wanted to say that there are other innovations happening on British soil that the NME is pretty much just ignoring and was going to use Dubstep as an example. But sadly I don't think the NME could ever take Dubstep very seriously. I was trying to think of some genuinely decent forward-thinking and innovative guitar-based music from the UK in the last 5 years and was very hard pushed.

the next grozart, Friday, 9 March 2007 11:33 (ten years ago) Permalink

I have to review the NME every week :-(

The very fact that the Kaisers are compared to Blur speaks volumes about what a shocking state we've gotten to. The difference in calibre, in experimentation, in quality, in ideas, in EVERYTHING, is absolutely staggering. TKC sound like they've heard that Phil Daniels vocal in Parklife and ditched everything else. Dudes, he wasn't even IN Blur for heaven's sake.

And as for your final point...

...well, we've got Oceansize, Youthmovie Soundtrack Strategies, The Electric Soft Parade, Hood (Outside Closer), Mogwai (their fourth album), The Cooper Temple Clause (until their third-album sell-out), 65 Days Of Static, Elbow, My Computer, good ol' SFA, and Working For A Nuclear Free City, amongst I'm sure several others.

It all depends on what you mean by 'forward-thinking and innovative', but I reckon those above bands fit the bill nicely.

unfished business, Friday, 9 March 2007 12:24 (ten years ago) Permalink

haha "Terris"

Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Friday, 9 March 2007 12:25 (ten years ago) Permalink

not sure why people would be looking at guitar-based music for 'forward-thinking/innovative' generally anyway because of it's age and ubiquity. at least Britain totally sucks at it these years it seems true.

blueski, Friday, 9 March 2007 12:38 (ten years ago) Permalink

Haha, Louis I wasn't comparing the Kharzi Chefs to Blur, just saying they're the modern equivalent as far as relative popularity goes.

Your list of alternative bands is good - such a shame though that there are only a handful of these bands out at the moment and they do vary in quality, many of them still riding on Postrock's tatty coattails. People moan about Pitchfork all the time but at least they're actively going out and reporting on music as opposed to the NME who just seem to reach into a lucky-dip bag of demos by shit UK guitar bands and write tired patronising hyperbole about their choice, slap a sticker on the front of the album and it sells a million copies. Across the pond at least you've got the whole Noise/psych scene and freakfolk and other bands who don't really fit into a category but are at least trying to do something a bit different - the indie scene in the States is strikingly healthy compared to the zero-track-minded gumph coming out in the UK.

the next grozart, Friday, 9 March 2007 12:39 (ten years ago) Permalink

i'm not sure we're not very good at dance music, pop music or (postpost)modern art these days either.

blueski, Friday, 9 March 2007 12:44 (ten years ago) Permalink

why people would be looking at guitar-based music for 'forward-thinking/innovative' generally anyway because of it's age and ubiquity.


The same thing is sadly happening with dance music. It's not a fresh-faced exciting youngster anymore either.

During the britpop era all the best uk bands were making dance music. None of the Britpop bands made an album as good as Leftism.

Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Friday, 9 March 2007 12:45 (ten years ago) Permalink

hey, I wasn't saying that YOU were comparing them, I was picking up on your point that others such as the NME were doing so, and hammering the nail home.

A few of those bands are quote 'riding on Postrock's tatty coattails', yes, but they've all put their distinctive spin on it. Oceansize for instance combine post-rock, progressive, electronic, pop, and metal until there really isn't a detectable genre present. Which is the way forward IMO.

unfished business, Friday, 9 March 2007 12:48 (ten years ago) Permalink

Blur did, so did Pulp - but that's arguable I guess.

the next grozart, Friday, 9 March 2007 12:48 (ten years ago) Permalink

xpost

the next grozart, Friday, 9 March 2007 12:49 (ten years ago) Permalink

M****N *folds arms*

unfished business, Friday, 9 March 2007 12:51 (ten years ago) Permalink

I miss x-post notification.

Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Friday, 9 March 2007 12:54 (ten years ago) Permalink

Seriously, I have to fucking REVIEW the NME in my job as radio station music assistant manager. Reading the single reviews, I ask myself: are they taking the fucking piss? Music journalism is NOTHING LIKE this, this is stream-of-consciousness moron-fodder idiocy that name-drops other artists every other fucking sentence, seriously how the FUCK do they get away with it?

unfished business, Friday, 9 March 2007 12:54 (ten years ago) Permalink

>> the indie scene in the States is strikingly healthy compared to the zero-track-minded gumph coming out in the UK.

This has probably been true for the last 20 years. [/yankophile]

Colonel Poo, Friday, 9 March 2007 12:55 (ten years ago) Permalink

Across the pond at least you've got the whole Noise/psych scene and freakfolk and other bands who don't really fit into a category but are at least trying to do something a bit different - the indie scene in the States is strikingly healthy compared to the zero-track-minded gumph coming out in the UK.

There are tons of bands in the UK who are making good and interesting music that doesn't fit into a category. I don't which respective nation's bands you have in mind here, but it seems like you're going down a pretty reductive road with this line of thinking

DJ Mencap, Friday, 9 March 2007 12:56 (ten years ago) Permalink

A few of those bands are quote 'riding on Postrock's tatty coattails', yes, but they've all put their distinctive spin on it. Oceansize for instance combine post-rock, progressive, electronic, pop, and metal until there really isn't a detectable genre present. Which is the way forward IMO.

Haven't heard Oceansize yet. Your description has set off certain alarm bells though in the fear that this band will flaunt their so-called eclecticism in a bit of a tired way, forgetting to master the styles they're trying to combine while simultaneously forgetting to innovate at the same time... That's perhaps unfair since I haven't heard them yet, but I'll say this about 65DOS (who are a great band and great people too so I feel bad about criticising) that their new material is going to have to do more than sound like a pleasing mishmash of Squarepusher and Mogwai. From what I've heard about Youthmovies is they're trying awesomely hard to be Gospeed Y.B.E! And while there's nothing wrong with that, where is the UK's Animal Collective? Where are the Lightning Bolts and Black Dices and Joanna Newsoms and Devendra Banharts and Decemberists? Say what you will about these bands but at least they have a fairly unique sound to them and I think that's more important these days than going "it's a rock band - but we use drumloops too, it's bloody mental!".

the next grozart, Friday, 9 March 2007 12:57 (ten years ago) Permalink

This has probably been true for the last 20 years. [/yankophile]

Don't really agree with this either. The nineties were an exceptional time for UK pop music and as far as the more challenging stuff is concerned, the UK has led the way in many other styles up until about five years ago what with Warp Records etc.

the next grozart, Friday, 9 March 2007 13:00 (ten years ago) Permalink

And can I say at this point I've got that annoying "RUBY RUBY RUBY RUBY" song going on in my head and it's making me want to stick unfolded paperclips into my eyes.

the next grozart, Friday, 9 March 2007 13:01 (ten years ago) Permalink

Youthmovies is they're trying awesomely hard to be Gospeed Y.B.E!

Someone is bullshitting you, this is so untrue it's laughable. They're basically math-prog with awesome singalong choruses and the occasional free-form sax solo. And great riffs!

Oceansize, fear ye not, are fucking fantastic at integrating all their influences into one coherent whole. This doesn't preclude their music from being very varied, but IMO they pull off almost everything they try with flying colours. Get Effloresce, it's probably the best album of the 00's. YA RLY

unfished business, Friday, 9 March 2007 13:01 (ten years ago) Permalink

Okay I will. I'll give Youthmovies another try too (even though that's one of the worst names for a band ever),

the next grozart, Friday, 9 March 2007 13:03 (ten years ago) Permalink

The Beta Band were our Animal Collective, they got there first, they were better, and they died before they grew stale. :P

unfished business, Friday, 9 March 2007 13:04 (ten years ago) Permalink

and if there's one band that wanted to be GY!BE it was Hope Of The States, but they also wanted to be trendy-indie Britpop so they FAILED MISERABLY.

unfished business, Friday, 9 March 2007 13:06 (ten years ago) Permalink

Yeah I can see what you mean - they're not the same band at all but they had their philosophical similarities. But what I'm saying Louis is exactly that - the Beta Band split up in, what? 1999? It shows that the UK isn't bereft of imagination but is simply being elbowed out by generic indie rock stuff which is always being held up by the NME as the "best/most important/most talked about band this year/week/day", so obviously there is a perverse power held by this magazine over a large amount of music writing in the country and so music sales reflect that.

the next grozart, Friday, 9 March 2007 13:09 (ten years ago) Permalink

xpost to your previous AC/BB comparisoon.

the next grozart, Friday, 9 March 2007 13:10 (ten years ago) Permalink

Although I must say I have a lot of respect for some of the more outspoken ILMers (i.e. Geir, Lex, Snrub) because despite perhaps not fitting well with the rest of the clan taste-wise, it's great fun hearing their points of view.

the next grozart, Friday, 9 March 2007 13:12 (ten years ago) Permalink

British music is all about James Blackshaw for me at the moment. But there's plenty of "weird folk/noise bands" in the uk now.

And you can buy it all from Volcanic Tongue in Glasgow(or mail order) or have a read at Foxy Digitalis.

Anyway i never understood this "we should buy british stuff" I don't give a shit where it comes from. Being from UK/Scotland doesn't make it any better for me. Finland and New Zealand have some awesome music just now. All that matters is that it's good music. The actual bands may differ between us, but I agree with The Lex, when he says it doesn't matter where the music comes from.
It only matters to NME because if its UK bands they can get interviews easier.

Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Friday, 9 March 2007 13:14 (ten years ago) Permalink

oh and JESU piss allover most things around just now. Wheres the NME and Kerrang front covers?

Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Friday, 9 March 2007 13:16 (ten years ago) Permalink

Funnily enough a lot of the forward thinking music is being made by guitars over in that rather large genre known as Metal.

Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Friday, 9 March 2007 13:17 (ten years ago) Permalink

I don't mind where the music comes from either, but since I live here I'd like to be able to read something that calls itself "New Musical Express" without retching up all over it. There's very little going on in the mainstream music press other than the NME (when it comes to rock/indie of course) and so they have a monopoly on what is critically acclaimed and what is ignored. This is really really stifling and it means that homegrown talent can never flourish if all that is allowed to exist are default indie rock groups.

the next grozart, Friday, 9 March 2007 13:19 (ten years ago) Permalink

If they made The Lex editor things would change.

Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Friday, 9 March 2007 13:20 (ten years ago) Permalink

it's great fun hearing their points of view.

surely this only lasts so many years/months/minutes re Geir. such a defiant but pointless broken record most of the time. i guess it'll always seem novel if you're new to ILM tho.

blueski, Friday, 9 March 2007 13:22 (ten years ago) Permalink

Principally the circulation figures.

Marcello Carlin, Friday, 9 March 2007 13:22 (ten years ago) Permalink

(xpost)

Marcello Carlin, Friday, 9 March 2007 13:23 (ten years ago) Permalink

oh lord, i forgot jesu. :-/

Kerr is right, metal is in many ways right at the forefront of musical innovation. *puts on The Wildhearts' Sky Babies, which sounds unbelievably fresh for 1995*

Also, The Beta Band themselves WERE NME front-page news at one point. Then they made 'The Beta Band' (i.e. they chose MUSIC not HYPE) and NME dropped 'em like a stone. They eventually passed away in 2004.

unfished business, Friday, 9 March 2007 13:23 (ten years ago) Permalink

the Beta Band split up in, what? 1999?

three years ago

blueski, Friday, 9 March 2007 13:25 (ten years ago) Permalink

aaliyah and destiny's child were nme cover stars, once.

though my attitude is no longer "nme should be putting X and Y on the front cover", more that "i hope nme ceases to exist while artists X and Y take over the world without it"

lex pretend, Friday, 9 March 2007 13:25 (ten years ago) Permalink

a) which innovative metal bands are British again?

b) how is it innovative?

blueski, Friday, 9 March 2007 13:26 (ten years ago) Permalink

those are genuine questions out of curiosity btw

blueski, Friday, 9 March 2007 13:26 (ten years ago) Permalink

I remember the Melody Maker letters page when 2 Unlimited were on the cover.

Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Friday, 9 March 2007 13:27 (ten years ago) Permalink

I wrote the bloody Melody Maker letters page when 2 Unlimited were on the cover!

Marcello Carlin, Friday, 9 March 2007 13:29 (ten years ago) Permalink

I knew they weren't real people writing in.

blueski, Friday, 9 March 2007 13:31 (ten years ago) Permalink

How many were from geir?

Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Friday, 9 March 2007 13:40 (ten years ago) Permalink

a) which innovative metal bands are British again?


DJ Martian to thread!

Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Friday, 9 March 2007 13:41 (ten years ago) Permalink

good questions, blueski. i thought the majority of decent metal bands were American or European no?

the next grozart, Friday, 9 March 2007 13:43 (ten years ago) Permalink

I never said they were british.

Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Friday, 9 March 2007 13:44 (ten years ago) Permalink

Well yeah, I'm not denying the existence of innovation in Metal, Dance, or even US Alternative stuff, just the UK indie and rock scene in general

the next grozart, Friday, 9 March 2007 13:46 (ten years ago) Permalink

Just the NME :)

Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Friday, 9 March 2007 13:48 (ten years ago) Permalink

I was trying to think of some genuinely decent forward-thinking and innovative guitar-based music from the UK in the last 5 years and was very hard pushed

Since the mid 80s, the best music has never been neither innovative nor forward thinking. However, there are still great tunes, with great verses, great choruses, great bridges, great middle-eights. At least in music that isn't "innovative". And that is a lot more important.

Geir Hongro, Friday, 9 March 2007 13:48 (ten years ago) Permalink

actually in terms of innovation British metal in the 00s has been lacking, however these are amongst the elite

Akercocke
Anaal Nathrakh
Axis of Perdition
Earthtone 9
Esoteric
Frost [half brits half norsk]

djmartian, Friday, 9 March 2007 13:56 (ten years ago) Permalink

I'm trying to think if there was ever a time when American bands were ever so unabashedly jingoistic as their Britpop brothers.

Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Friday, 9 March 2007 13:57 (ten years ago) Permalink

Tom D., Friday, 9 March 2007 13:59 (ten years ago) Permalink

X-post
Bato isn't in a band.

Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Friday, 9 March 2007 14:05 (ten years ago) Permalink

actually in terms of innovation British metal in the 00s has been lacking, however these are amongst the elite

Akercocke
Anaal Nathrakh
Axis of Perdition
Earthtone 9
Esoteric
Frost [half brits half norsk]



so how are they innovating?


does it work like 4/4 dance music where the big progression this decade has been on increased sense of space and depth, technical intricacy beyond the 'surfaces' of tracks, minimal-complex etc. - are these same ideas being applied to Metal by these bands? or something else?

blueski, Friday, 9 March 2007 14:19 (ten years ago) Permalink

To be honest most of the time I don't really notice where a bands from. Perhaps that's because I cant always find interviews (apart from maybe Rockarolla) so i have no idea where they are from.

Some good brit bands/acts around just now ...hmmm
Jesu
Holy McGrail
Atavist
Skullflower
Ashtray Navigations
James Blackshaw
The Heads
Electric Wizard
Moss
Sickoakes

I haven't heard The Lords or Crippled Black Phoenix albums yet so I can't judge them.

Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Friday, 9 March 2007 14:20 (ten years ago) Permalink

"oh and JESU piss allover most things around just now. Wheres the NME and Kerrang front covers?"


scott seward, Friday, 9 March 2007 14:21 (ten years ago) Permalink

my analysis of British (& some Irish) from the recent past. Overall British music in recent times has been lacking in numbers i.e quantity of quality in terms of talent.
.
What may be the contributing factors?

the post Peel era of a more conservative Radio 1
Xfm generic rubbish / with a very conservative format
6 Music completely underperforming with dull radio programming ruled on behalf of pluggers
Useless established print media and no effective and different weekly competition for NME and Kerrang
Increasing fragmentation of self contained music scenes
No interesting music on mainstream TV, e.g another snoring boring series of the jools holland show

http://rateyourmusic.com/list/djmartian/mercury_music_prize_2006

Some Eligible Albums for the Mercury Music Prize 2006. i.e British or Irish Artists who released an album between July 25th 2005 and July 17th 2006.

http://rateyourmusic.com/list/djmartian/mercury_music_prize_2005

Some Eligible Albums for the Mercury Music Prize 2005. i.e British or Irish Artists who released an album between July 26th 2004 and July 18th 2005.

djmartian, Friday, 9 March 2007 14:22 (ten years ago) Permalink

How does Justin Broadrick look so young*? He's been around forever?


* He is young
Well, under 40 anyway.

Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Friday, 9 March 2007 14:31 (ten years ago) Permalink

another slant, Norway has a population of under 5 Million, 12 times smaller than the UK - and is punching way above it's comparative size in a wide range of music genres.

as demonstrated by their national music promotion portal

MIC Norway
http://www.mic.no/english

Why is Norway performing so well culturally in the 00s?
Why are their musicians willing to be more creative?
Does a smaller country facilitate music to thrive more easily compared to other larger European countries?

djmartian, Friday, 9 March 2007 14:54 (ten years ago) Permalink

the next grozart OTM

I moan about Pitchfork too, but IRL that message, that the US (not to forget other places but particularly w/r/t US indie vs UK indie) wipes the floor with most of our (Britishes) efforts is v.much what I've been expressing to my friends for, years now.

And yeah, the Klaxons embodying the sudden appearance of "omg thinking outside THE RULES fisher price my first experimental pop/rock band" as some kind of belated antidote/apology for the last half decade of dour, dopey conservative mediocrity is just tragic when something like that Marnie Stern album just absolutely FLATTENS teh Klaxons for excitement, freshness and pure giddy RAWK fun.

I don't care for almost ANY of Louis suggestions sadly :( (not even Beta Band and esp. not SFA ugh).

fandango, Friday, 9 March 2007 15:03 (ten years ago) Permalink

Because of Geir!

Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Friday, 9 March 2007 15:03 (ten years ago) Permalink

the nebulous post-electroclash/post-DFA/Ed Banger/Indieclash thing suddenly getting "New Rave" as a nom de plume, just in case it was in any danger of going somewhere interesting, less retro, more creative is ... kind of irritating.

fandango, Friday, 9 March 2007 15:08 (ten years ago) Permalink

Guys, this is moaning and self-pity is bullshit, and gets on my nerves. In the USA Nickelback sold 5 million records, not the Animal Collective or Joanna Newsom. There are dozens of good artists in the UK who are actually not generic indie, from Patrick Wolf to Electrelane and so on. Lock this thread, please.

zeus, Friday, 9 March 2007 15:15 (ten years ago) Permalink

This has probably been true for the last 20 years. [/yankophile]

Don't really agree with this either. The nineties were an exceptional time for UK pop music and as far as the more challenging stuff is concerned, the UK has led the way in many other styles up until about five years ago what with Warp Records etc.

the next grozart on Friday, 9 March 2007 13:00 (1 hour ago)

The original quote referred specifically to the indie scene, rather than music in general, so pop music isn't relevant. I wasn't saying there hasn't been both fantastic and challenging music from the UK, of course there has been, but I still feel we don't really compare with the US, BUT that is from the viewpoint of my personal music taste. Maybe I should have said the last 10 years. Certainly I think you have to dig a lot deeper since BritPop to find stuff that doesn't suck. I suppose I blame BritPop for ruining "indie" and haven't forgiven it! I know during the BritPop Years 95-97 I pretty much gave up on UK indie.

Colonel Poo, Friday, 9 March 2007 15:15 (ten years ago) Permalink

If it hadn't been for the internet and finding about music from other countries that weren't covered by the uk press, I would've been either stuck in mojo land or out of music completely after exhausting krautrock and "lost classics".

Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Friday, 9 March 2007 15:17 (ten years ago) Permalink

Shame we can't add a poll to this thread "Did britpop kill UK Indie?"

Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Friday, 9 March 2007 15:18 (ten years ago) Permalink

There are dozens of good artists in the UK who are actually not generic indie, from Patrick Wolf to Electrelane and so on.

zeus


selling absolutely fuck all, even compared to Joanna Newsom, I'd wager?

fandango, Friday, 9 March 2007 15:22 (ten years ago) Permalink

Well, the Patrick Wolf album is actually almost in the Top 40.

zeus, Friday, 9 March 2007 15:24 (ten years ago) Permalink

ok, I lose :/

fandango, Friday, 9 March 2007 15:29 (ten years ago) Permalink

current albums sold in the UK outside the top 40, by artists that haven't previously had a top 40 chart album

6 Music chart
http://www.bbc.co.uk/6music/shows/chart/chart_page.shtml

djmartian, Friday, 9 March 2007 15:29 (ten years ago) Permalink

So was the Joanna Newsom record.

What DJ Martian says above about the Norwegian music scene is equally, if not more so, applicable to the scene in Canada at the moment. How come they manage to be so much more creative than Britain? Probably it's a matter not just of distance, but of the lack of any perceived need for rivalry or coolness and a willingness to experiment without instantly being pinned down by the media.

Marcello Carlin, Friday, 9 March 2007 15:30 (ten years ago) Permalink

That Marnie Stern record sounds interesting; I'll definitely be checking that out.

Marcello Carlin, Friday, 9 March 2007 15:31 (ten years ago) Permalink

The marnie stern album is great

Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Friday, 9 March 2007 15:33 (ten years ago) Permalink

Thanks for that link, djmartian, that's interesting.

zeus, Friday, 9 March 2007 15:35 (ten years ago) Permalink

Re: Canada

I can see a thread in 3 years: 'What happened with the Canadian indie scene?!'

zeus, Friday, 9 March 2007 15:37 (ten years ago) Permalink

There's probably already one

Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Friday, 9 March 2007 16:05 (ten years ago) Permalink

The reason the Canadian indie scene is so great is for one reason: THEY FREAKING SUBSIDIZE THE F*CK OUT OF IT. Plus the whole protectionism of Cancon on all media channels

Masonic Boom, Friday, 9 March 2007 16:07 (ten years ago) Permalink

So Canadian protectionism is a good thing, but the British protectionism is jingoism? Strange effects.

zeus, Friday, 9 March 2007 16:21 (ten years ago) Permalink

Haven't seen the Arts Council sticking their arm out recently. Mind you, when the emblem of decadence in British music in 2007 is the Horrors, can you really blame them?

Marcello Carlin, Friday, 9 March 2007 16:48 (ten years ago) Permalink

If its not classical it won't get funded, right?

Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Friday, 9 March 2007 16:50 (ten years ago) Permalink

These Canadians win the worst name award though.

Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Friday, 9 March 2007 16:54 (ten years ago) Permalink

Either that or it has to come under the nefarious boundaries of "world music" or "community music."

Marcello Carlin, Friday, 9 March 2007 16:54 (ten years ago) Permalink

Wot, no vernacular music?

Tom D., Friday, 9 March 2007 16:55 (ten years ago) Permalink

That would mean giving public money to Jack McLaughlin.

Marcello Carlin, Friday, 9 March 2007 16:57 (ten years ago) Permalink

Subsidised indie rock would be worse than NME Carling Rock though I'm sure.

Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Friday, 9 March 2007 17:07 (ten years ago) Permalink

It would probably sound like Fat Les.

Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Friday, 9 March 2007 17:11 (ten years ago) Permalink

Canadian indie isn't subsidised for being indie, it's subsidised for being CANADIAN.

That's what you've got to do to keep some kind of national cultural identity when up against the giant cultural monolith next door.

I mean, maybe that's a point. Who are British bands competing with, locally? Breton hip-hop? I don't think so.

Masonic Boom, Friday, 9 March 2007 17:12 (ten years ago) Permalink

Ireland!

Tom D., Friday, 9 March 2007 17:13 (ten years ago) Permalink

There's no Scottish subsidy for jingly jangly bands.

Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Friday, 9 March 2007 17:15 (ten years ago) Permalink

But it there may well be legislation introduced after the forthcoming elections

Tom D., Friday, 9 March 2007 17:17 (ten years ago) Permalink

It would probably sound like Fat Les.

Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy on Friday, 9 March 2007 17:11 (5 minutes ago)


Fat Les no worse than the horrors.

Pashmina, Friday, 9 March 2007 17:18 (ten years ago) Permalink

Keith Allen isn't in The Horrors though.

Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Friday, 9 March 2007 17:18 (ten years ago) Permalink

I haven't actually heard any music by The Horrors. That's probably in their favour just now. Are they as bad as I imagine?

Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Friday, 9 March 2007 17:19 (ten years ago) Permalink

"Canadian indie isn't subsidised for being indie, it's subsidised for being CANADIAN."

This is not quite true. For bands like You Say Party We Say Die (horrid name I guess, but quite a good band), the only way they are subsidised would be through increased radio/media exposure via the CRTC broadcast requirements. Most stations have to play 35% Canadian Content. However some stations also have a requirement to play a certain percentage of independent releases. At the station I'm with we have to play (if memory serves) 35% Canadian, 60% independent, 60% releases from the last 6 months and 50% female-related artists (ie. at least one member of the band is a woman).

Other stations have various other playlist requirements, the idea being that EVERYTHING gets some exposure. Culturally specific genres like reggae, merengue and yes, even Brit-pop, generally have different Can-con rules - usually something like 10%.



everything, Friday, 9 March 2007 17:42 (ten years ago) Permalink

The Canadian government also GIVES MONEY AWAY IN THE FORM OF GRANTS so that Canadian bands can tour. I know this is true because I've toured on one of these grants, back when I was in a Canadian pop band.

Masonic Boom, Friday, 9 March 2007 17:43 (ten years ago) Permalink

Indie on the rates. Henry Root would be horrified.

Noodle Vague, Friday, 9 March 2007 17:44 (ten years ago) Permalink

Okay, but generally speaking, those grants are not for new bands such as YSPWSD because you must have specialized training in your field and have to already be recognised as a professional musician by your peers (two of the requirements). It's tricky for a new band to comply with those requirements.

However, my point was that in some ways indie music IS subsidized.

everything, Friday, 9 March 2007 17:49 (ten years ago) Permalink

If it's so tricky to get one, then how the heck did a little tiny indie band like mine manage to get one? (Unless things have changed dramatically in the past 5 years.)

Masonic Boom, Friday, 9 March 2007 17:51 (ten years ago) Permalink

By the way, I know Shimura Curves got played on my station a while back, partly because it scored 3 out of 4 of the CRTC requirements.

everything, Friday, 9 March 2007 17:52 (ten years ago) Permalink

Xpost - I'll admit I don't really know what those grants are all about other than what I've heard through the grapevine. I know a couple of people who have been turned down for those reasons I stated. I've never applied for one and don't know that much about it. So, I bow to your superior experience.

everything, Friday, 9 March 2007 17:56 (ten years ago) Permalink

This wasn't Shimura Curves, this was the Lollies - who were totally MAPL by the book despite my passport.

Masonic Boom, Friday, 9 March 2007 17:58 (ten years ago) Permalink

Oh sure. I'm talking only about 3 or 4 months ago we played Shimura Curves a couple of times. The Fem-con requirement is very new by the way - it only came in about a year ago.

everything, Friday, 9 March 2007 18:01 (ten years ago) Permalink

Kate played in two countries on radio. Next stop THE WORLD!

Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Friday, 9 March 2007 18:02 (ten years ago) Permalink

I can't imagine a similar system being implemented in the UK, much though I might think that was a good thing. Though I don't think I would give the money to the arists, but more to keep legendary venues going with Arts Council grants. You look at a super-isolated and yet still historically very vibrant UK indie scene, such as Hull for example - and it's usually down to a venue or a promoter doing everything they can to keep live music alive, not just in terms of local music, but attracting national bands and getting local bands in as support. In Hull that was the Adelphi - bands had a place to play, rehearse, record, half the bands in Hull worked behind the bar at one point or another to pay their rent. Something like that keeps a music scene vibrant on a grass roots level on a way that just giving grants to musicians doesn't.

Masonic Boom, Friday, 9 March 2007 18:03 (ten years ago) Permalink

Hooray! I am in the elite cadre of ILXors who've played at the Adelphi.

Noodle Vague, Friday, 9 March 2007 18:04 (ten years ago) Permalink

x-post, yay! I love Canadian radio!

(Four countries, actually - UK, Germany, Canada and US. Unless Texas counts as a different country...)

The Canadian system, despite its problems, does have a lot to be said for it. But then again, Canadian radio is localised in a way that UK radio is monolithic - the monolithic status of UK radio has some things to be said for it, too, though.

Masonic Boom, Friday, 9 March 2007 18:05 (ten years ago) Permalink

But having grants available doesn't stop those kind of grassroots/collective scenes from happening. The relative isolation of most Canadian cities usually means there is a very strong and supportive local scene too.

everything, Friday, 9 March 2007 18:09 (ten years ago) Permalink

The female artists rule seems weird tho. I would guestimate that women are in no way under-represented in Pop, at least.

Noodle Vague, Friday, 9 March 2007 18:09 (ten years ago) Permalink

(xxxpost, obviously)

everything, Friday, 9 March 2007 18:09 (ten years ago) Permalink

I don't think the female artists rule seems weird at all - though I think it's aimed at redressing the balance in rock rather than pop, which is still overwhelmingly male.

Masonic Boom, Friday, 9 March 2007 18:10 (ten years ago) Permalink

FYI the fem-con thing has only been taken on by those stations who want to support it as a concept. It's not fully official yet. Seems to work pretty well, though, having lived with it for a year. And I was originally sceptical.

everything, Friday, 9 March 2007 18:10 (ten years ago) Permalink

Agreed about Rock, yes - although why not set all sorts of quotas? - but I assumed that most stations would play some version of Pop and then it all seems a bit pointless. I don't like this protectionist thing anyway tho.

Noodle Vague, Friday, 9 March 2007 18:14 (ten years ago) Permalink

I don't know if I like protectionism or not, but you can't deny that the Canadian independent music scene is really healthy in a way that I don't really think the UK is at the moment.

Masonic Boom, Friday, 9 March 2007 18:18 (ten years ago) Permalink

If indie bands were forced to get girls in bands just to be played on radio then The Lex would have to like more indie bands!

Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Friday, 9 March 2007 18:19 (ten years ago) Permalink

I think the idea that the UK indie scene is unhealthy is probably wrong. As people have said upthread "NME bands" does not equal the indie scene in toto.

Noodle Vague, Friday, 9 March 2007 18:22 (ten years ago) Permalink

Compared to what it's like in Canada - the amount of radio play, press coverage (mainstream press coverage), etc. that indie bands get, it is unhealthy. NME/Carling rock has an unhealthy stranglehold on the public face of UK indie, which is not at all representative of the actual creativity going on.

Masonic Boom, Friday, 9 March 2007 18:26 (ten years ago) Permalink

The NME scene is unhealthy creatively but very very healthy commercially. If all those bands died on their arse would NME start covering decent bands again or just hype up some new shit and hope it takes off commercially?
If you read about a band in NME these days you can bet the will be in The Sun etc pretty quickly and played on R1.
Mind you, as Doherty proves, you don't have to have people knowing your music to get famous.
Do any bands get mega without being tabloid fodder?

Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Friday, 9 March 2007 18:26 (ten years ago) Permalink

I can't imagine Snow Patrol provide many thrilling tabloid stories.

Noodle Vague, Friday, 9 March 2007 18:27 (ten years ago) Permalink

To all the musicians on here: would subsidies actually help your bands?

Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Friday, 9 March 2007 18:29 (ten years ago) Permalink

It's more than just "subsidies" though (and let me again say that I doubt that many bands receive cash handouts).

Having lived in both the UK and Canada for many years, I have to say that the Canadian music scene is larger, more eclectic, more inclusive, more friendly and more entertaining than the UK. There are lots of musicians of all ages who can easily find gigs, get media exposure, are supported by music fans of all ages. People just DO more here, and are much less judgemental/ageist/fashion-concious.

everything, Friday, 9 March 2007 18:31 (ten years ago) Permalink

Do you have to be under a certain age though? Do over 40s get help for example?

Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Friday, 9 March 2007 18:34 (ten years ago) Permalink

Subsidising music or musicians wouldn't make a difference to me at my point in life. Subsidising venues and promoters would probably make more of a difference to me, to create more places for my band to play without dealing with awful moneygrubbing promoters. The difference for me would be playing somewhere that has a "get 20 people in the door with flyers" policy vs. someone who has the expertise and time and devotion to actually put together a good club, good bills and actually *promote* - that would be make a difference to me.

I know this may appear to be backwards thinking, as a musician, but honestly, it's not.

I mean, the difference between playing somewhere like the Bull and Gate and playing somewhere like the Windmill really shows this up. Which is a more pleasant -and profitable - experience for bands and fans?

Masonic Boom, Friday, 9 March 2007 18:35 (ten years ago) Permalink

There are lots of musicians of all ages who can easily find gigs, get media exposure, are supported by music fans of all ages.

WHY do you think this is? It's because someone is out there protecting this stuff, and not letting legendary venues be knocked down to build blocks of flats, not letting music papers be sold off to giant media empires who care about nothing but what shifts units, music fans having access to music that stimulates them through radio that actually plays local, independent music, etc. etc. etc.

Masonic Boom, Friday, 9 March 2007 18:40 (ten years ago) Permalink

And would subsidies get spread locally from region to region? That would be one way to keep bands from moving to London I suppose, but then would they still get signed?

Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Friday, 9 March 2007 18:42 (ten years ago) Permalink

xpost. Ha-ha. I WISH. You know, almost every well-known venue in Vancouver has closed it's doors over the last 10 years. Some new places have sprung up, yes, but mostly we have nice shiny condos in what used to be great rock-n-roll clubs. Thing is there are always people willing to try putting gigs on in new venues. All ages shows, cafes, restaurants, weird little pubs etc. People just love live music here.

everything, Friday, 9 March 2007 18:45 (ten years ago) Permalink

"Do you have to be under a certain age though? Do over 40s get help for example?"

Well, the most influential thing is the Can-con requirements and all musicians benefit from that. As for these grants, my understanding is that they are specifically tailored for more experienced musicians who are already professionals.

here: http://www.canadacouncil.ca/grants/music/se127227196662968750.htm

Back in the day in the UK, the indie scene could have been said to have been subsidised by Unemployment Benefits. I know many, many bands spent years on the dole while cutting classic albums for Rough Trade etc.

everything, Friday, 9 March 2007 18:54 (ten years ago) Permalink

"I haven't actually heard any music by The Horrors. That's probably in their favour just now. Are they as bad as I imagine?

Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy on Friday, 9 March 2007 17:19 (2 hours ago)"

I like them, much better than The Arctic Kooks View.

zeus, Friday, 9 March 2007 19:51 (ten years ago) Permalink

WHY do you think this is? It's because someone is out there protecting this stuff, and not letting legendary venues be knocked down to build blocks of flats

Yeah, who cares about affordable housing, what's important is that Runrig have somewhere to finish their next 25 date tour.

Dom Passantino, Friday, 9 March 2007 19:58 (ten years ago) Permalink

It IS important, actually. And it's not like they're gonna be building council flats where the Hammersmith Palais used to be, is it?

everything, Friday, 9 March 2007 20:01 (ten years ago) Permalink


WHY do you think this is? It's because someone is out there protecting this stuff, and not letting legendary venues be knocked down to build blocks of flats, not letting music papers be sold off to giant media empires who care about nothing but what shifts units, music fans having access to music that stimulates them through radio that actually plays local, independent music, etc. etc. etc.


hahahahahahahahahahaahahahahahah
*breath*
hahahahaahhaa

JW, Friday, 9 March 2007 20:02 (ten years ago) Permalink

Just wait til Rupert Murdoch buys all the music press.

Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Saturday, 10 March 2007 00:13 (ten years ago) Permalink

Who exactly are these "NME indie bands"?? I mean, I know there's the Kaiser Chiefs and Babyshambles, and you guys are mentioning some band called The Horrors (who I've never heard of) but who else is there?

Mr. Snrub, Saturday, 10 March 2007 20:46 (ten years ago) Permalink

oh for fuck's sake snrub, just GET ONE (1) NME and you'll see just a fraction of the bullshit mountain we have to deal with here.

unfished business, Saturday, 10 March 2007 20:49 (ten years ago) Permalink

You can't get an NME here in Ohio. The only place you could ever get them was the local Borders, and they stopped carrying them 'round 2001 or so.

Also, nme.com doesn't put their reviews online anymore :(

Anybody remember nme.com? Back in about 2000-2001 that was the BEST MUSIC SITE EVER. They had loads of shit from all through the 90s.

Mr. Snrub, Saturday, 10 March 2007 20:54 (ten years ago) Permalink

Nothing wrong about the NME these days. Franz Ferdinand are brilliant, for instance.

Geir Hongro, Saturday, 10 March 2007 20:54 (ten years ago) Permalink

Geir is wrong, anyway Franz Ferdinand on the cover of NME was years ago now. Now it's The Fratellis, The Horrors, The Shitehawks*
NME.com was awesome back then. It went to shit in a cost cutting exercise sadly. Shortsighted fuckers.

* May be made up.

Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Saturday, 10 March 2007 21:03 (ten years ago) Permalink

Nothing wrong about the NME these days.

Here, just for you, Geir, is NME's recent review of The Twang's single 'Wide Awake':

"First the Kaisers, then The Automatic and now The Twang. On current form, you'd put a fiver on 'super-indie' B-Unique succeeding even if they announced plans to fly Pennie to Mars fuelled by one of Preston's leftover cappucinos.

At first glance these gnarly Midlands upstarts look unlikely superstars. Their wardrobes are hopelessly bereft of the indie nation's current clobber
du jour (mock gothic; Day-Glo rave). Their ever-growing fanclub, meanwhile, led by Noel Gallagher and Tom Meighan, suggests a certain laddishness about their disciples. And yet 'Wide Awake' is still the mightiest, most gloriously life-affirming track you'll hear this month. A filthy, cocksure confessional in the best tradition of Shaun Ryder, it finds Phil Etheridge taking drugs, getting jiggy with someone he shouldn't have and waking up in the morning feeling like death. It's a Mike Skinner concept album packed into three epic minutes. "What was I doing with that MILF?" he booms, as swaggering U2-like guitars shimmer by, all blessed with an unmistakable skunk-rock scuzziness.

If 'Wide Awake''s similarity to Flowered Up's 'It's On' (ask your dribbling, saucer-eyed, flower-headed weirdo of an uncle) will delight wheelchair-bound baggy veterans, The Twang are also bringing more of the pilled-up, anything-goes spirit of rave to the party that all the opposition put together. Sorted!
"

LET. ME. COUNT. THE. FUCKING. WAYS.

unfished business, Saturday, 10 March 2007 21:07 (ten years ago) Permalink

I'd rather listen to "it's on".

Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Saturday, 10 March 2007 21:10 (ten years ago) Permalink

"upstarts".

Everyone's a freaking upstart in the NME.

everything, Saturday, 10 March 2007 21:11 (ten years ago) Permalink

Oh, and the best bit? It's a tough call, but THIS is the winner:

swaggering U2-like guitars shimmer by, all blessed with an unmistakable skunk-rock scuzziness.

UUUUUUUUH

unfished business, Saturday, 10 March 2007 21:14 (ten years ago) Permalink

(downloads "Wide Awake"; gives it a couple listens)

This is terrible.

Mr. Snrub, Saturday, 10 March 2007 21:45 (ten years ago) Permalink

So you see. You've only just SCRATCHED THE FUCKING SURFACE, dude.

unfished business, Saturday, 10 March 2007 21:46 (ten years ago) Permalink

But what does GEIR think?!

Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Saturday, 10 March 2007 22:06 (ten years ago) Permalink

I haven't heard The Twang, but from the description they sound great. Guitar based archetypically British pop/rock with a heavy empasis on songwriting and melodies usually is.

Geir Hongro, Sunday, 11 March 2007 12:47 (ten years ago) Permalink

Well, this Twang song is really crap: U2 meets Hard-Fi, at first listen.

zeus, Sunday, 11 March 2007 13:01 (ten years ago) Permalink

Mr Twang - 'Wide Awake'

Mr. Snrub, Sunday, 11 March 2007 16:57 (ten years ago) Permalink

What? You can't post links to YouTube on here?!?!?!?

Mr. Snrub, Sunday, 11 March 2007 16:57 (ten years ago) Permalink

Blur B-Sides still WIPE THE FLOOR with whatever else you care to mention. Throw Oasis and Boo Radleys out with the rubbish. And take Ocean Colour Scene while you're at it.

Bimble, Sunday, 11 March 2007 17:12 (ten years ago) Permalink

"No one can see when they get mace in their eye-eye-eye-eyes!"

Blur rule.

Bimble, Sunday, 11 March 2007 17:32 (ten years ago) Permalink

you better take that back about the boos. in fact i'm surprised you champion blur b-sides and not the boo radleys when really they're practically the same thing.

the next grozart, Sunday, 11 March 2007 18:18 (ten years ago) Permalink

You put my ignorance to shame, Grozart, I've greatly appreciated your posts earlier on this thread.

Bimble, Sunday, 11 March 2007 19:08 (ten years ago) Permalink

bimble, have you heard a boo radleys song that is not a) wake up boo or b) i hang suspended (single version)?

unfished business, Sunday, 11 March 2007 19:28 (ten years ago) Permalink

Throw them ALL out for all I care.

fandango, Sunday, 11 March 2007 19:30 (ten years ago) Permalink

:-) Bimble just promise me you'll give Giant Steps a go - it's pre-Britpop shoegaze-psychdub wonderment from 1993. If you can't be bothered then at least get the song "Blues For George Michael", an 8-minute epic B-side that really should've been an A-side in a perfect world.

Funny you mention "I Hang Suspended" Louis, as I thought it was normally 'It's Lulu', 'C'mon Kids' or even 'Wish I Was Skinny' that get dropped as "the only other Boo song I know". This is a shame as they're all relatively mediocre straight-up pop songs that were released as singles but were never really representative of their more left-leaning stuff.

Sad to see such a great band immortalised as a cheesy second-rate Britpop group with two songs, but I guess that's what you get for releasing boring singles. I say singles, I really mean "A-Sides" as the Boos, along with Blur, had one of the most fun and most eclectic back catalogues of B-sides in all of pop in my opinion.

That said, I did always like I Hang Suspended (not really very adventurous but a nice noise all the same). Lazarus is their only other true anthem single (after Wake Up Boo of course which I understand can leave a bad taste in the mouth but is still classic in my book). 'Ride The Tiger' was good too, despite the slightly dicky lyrics but the version released as a single missed out the cool psychedelic middle-eighth jam with the animal toys and swirly organ which on the album is kind of crucial to it being a wicked song.

the next grozart, Sunday, 11 March 2007 22:20 (ten years ago) Permalink

Argh, I went to their myspace to see if The Twang could possibly be so bad and good lord, they are terrible!
Where on earth is the baggy element or the rave like euphoria? The sub-Edge delay and chorus soaked guitars are horrible and the drums lumpen. And the singing? Dreadful.
Worse still, the picture on the myspace player for Wide Awake is a bunch of pills. Ooh! Controversy! Danger! Opportunistic bullshit.

Stew, Monday, 12 March 2007 00:55 (ten years ago) Permalink

I'm just waiting for the NME to hype a band called The Shitehawks. Someone start it please.

Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Monday, 12 March 2007 01:40 (ten years ago) Permalink

Oh and if only the Britpop bands had the vision to create and album like "Giant Steps".

Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Monday, 12 March 2007 01:41 (ten years ago) Permalink

I can't even see a Verve or Spiritualized coming through from the current lot of NME Carling Rock bands.

Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Monday, 12 March 2007 01:42 (ten years ago) Permalink

Thank feck for that.

Marcello Carlin, Monday, 12 March 2007 08:49 (ten years ago) Permalink

Surely the plodding, pseudo-meaningful balladry of Coldplay, Keane et al owes a lot to the Verve - more than to Radiohead arguably.
After all, didn't Chris Martin introduce Bittersweet Symphony as "the best song ever" (what's he on?) when they performed it with Dickie Ashcroft at Live8?

Stew, Monday, 12 March 2007 08:59 (ten years ago) Permalink

I was more thinking of Early Verve, you know, before they were The verve.

Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Monday, 12 March 2007 09:23 (ten years ago) Permalink

Why did I say Early with a capital E? Anyway none of those bands could lace the boots of any era of them.

Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Monday, 12 March 2007 09:25 (ten years ago) Permalink

Has there ever been a rock group named Early?

"Early" Verve is a good call, however.

Marcello Carlin, Monday, 12 March 2007 09:40 (ten years ago) Permalink

There is a group called Earlies now.

zeus, Monday, 12 March 2007 13:42 (ten years ago) Permalink

Surely the plodding, pseudo-meaningful balladry of Coldplay, Keane et al owes a lot to the Verve - more than to Radiohead arguably. [i]

There were two sides to Verve. Coldplay, Keane and Travis owe a lot to the good side of Verve, the great songwriting side that gave us such great classic songs as "The Drugs Don't Work" and "Sonnet". However, The Verve also had another side, consisting of boring overlong "jams" mostly based on only one chord. And luckily Coldplay etc. haven't paid much attention to that heritage.

Other than that, there [i]is
a lot of "The Bends" era Radiohead in their style, but also lots of U2 and a-ha. (Travis and Keane are great a-ha fans)

Geir Hongro, Monday, 12 March 2007 13:51 (ten years ago) Permalink

Oh and if only the Britpop bands had the vision to create and album like "Giant Steps".

Would have been a lot better if Boo Radleys had created more albums like "Wake Up" instead. Lots of screaming and noise just doesn't make good pop music.

Geir Hongro, Monday, 12 March 2007 13:52 (ten years ago) Permalink

This thread goes from strength to strength.

Dom Passantino, Monday, 12 March 2007 13:54 (ten years ago) Permalink

Lots of screaming and noise just doesn't make good pop music.

Beatles to thread.

Marcello Carlin, Monday, 12 March 2007 13:57 (ten years ago) Permalink

Geeeeiiiirrrr...!!!

the next grozart, Monday, 12 March 2007 14:33 (ten years ago) Permalink

Geir excels himself again.

Marcello OTM

Brigadier Lethbridge-Pfunkboy, Monday, 12 March 2007 14:34 (ten years ago) Permalink

ten months pass...

Oasis and Blur have reportedly been lined up to appear in a Britpop special of The Weakest Link.

The show's bosses have contacted Noel Gallagher, Liam Gallagher, Damon Albarn and Alex James to appear in the episode of the gameshow, according to the Daily Star.

"If we can pull this off it would be unbelievable," commented a BBC source. "Noel Gallagher admits he’s a Weakest Link fan."

Other stars that bosses want to have on the show include Pulp's Jarvis Cocker, Elastica's Justine Frischmann, Manic Street Preachers' James Dean Bradfield and Suede's Brett Anderson.

blueski, Thursday, 17 January 2008 16:33 (nine years ago) Permalink

Shit will be pointless without Johnny Dean.

The blue-green world is drenched with horse gore, Thursday, 17 January 2008 16:37 (nine years ago) Permalink

Predicted final line-up:

Bonehead
Neil Codling
Gary Crowley
Fruitbat
Chris Gentry
Tony McCarroll
John Power
Matthew Priest
Russell Senior
Louise Wener

Dingbod Kesterson, Thursday, 17 January 2008 16:44 (nine years ago) Permalink

if they got Noel and Damon would watch it for sure.

chap, Thursday, 17 January 2008 16:45 (nine years ago) Permalink

No Drummer from Gay Dad?

Tom D., Thursday, 17 January 2008 16:45 (nine years ago) Permalink

He's too busy fearing breakbeats in the shires.

Ned Raggett, Thursday, 17 January 2008 16:47 (nine years ago) Permalink

Luke Haines
Crispin Hunt
Suggs
Curly-haired twat who used to drum for Stereophonics
Some bloke you don't recognise in a stupid hat
Skin

The blue-green world is drenched with horse gore, Thursday, 17 January 2008 16:48 (nine years ago) Permalink

Junkie wife of dude from Supergrass

Dom Passantino, Thursday, 17 January 2008 16:49 (nine years ago) Permalink

John Robb will be on it

Herman G. Neuname, Thursday, 17 January 2008 16:49 (nine years ago) Permalink

Then I won't be watching it

Tom D., Thursday, 17 January 2008 16:50 (nine years ago) Permalink

At least one of Terrorvision.

chap, Thursday, 17 January 2008 16:51 (nine years ago) Permalink

Crispian Mills
Buster Bloodvessel
Danbert Nobacon
Bez
Crispin Glover
Beaky

The blue-green world is drenched with horse gore, Thursday, 17 January 2008 16:52 (nine years ago) Permalink

Some bloke you don't recognise in a stupid hat = Shovel Out Of M People

Dingbod Kesterson, Thursday, 17 January 2008 16:54 (nine years ago) Permalink

Nah, I recognise Shovel. He's that bloke in the stupid hat out of M People.

The blue-green world is drenched with horse gore, Thursday, 17 January 2008 16:54 (nine years ago) Permalink

I feel a Weakest Link "Some bloke you don't recognise in a stupid hat" Special is but months away

Tom D., Thursday, 17 January 2008 16:55 (nine years ago) Permalink

MC Tunes

The blue-green world is drenched with horse gore, Thursday, 17 January 2008 16:55 (nine years ago) Permalink

Freddie Garrity
that dead bloke out of Lush
Mika
Jack White

The blue-green world is drenched with horse gore, Thursday, 17 January 2008 16:56 (nine years ago) Permalink

Freddie's Dead

Tom D., Thursday, 17 January 2008 16:57 (nine years ago) Permalink

Phill Jupitus
COMEDIAN

Dingbod Kesterson, Thursday, 17 January 2008 16:57 (nine years ago) Permalink

xpost

So's that dead bloke out of Lush.

The blue-green world is drenched with horse gore, Thursday, 17 January 2008 16:58 (nine years ago) Permalink

Is he?

Tom D., Thursday, 17 January 2008 16:58 (nine years ago) Permalink

This is how it goes: Pop star states a liking for some TV show. TV show exec gets overexcited, releases press statement about getting them on the show. Pop star says no.

Morrissey : Eurovision was the last one.

Mark G, Thursday, 17 January 2008 16:58 (nine years ago) Permalink

Phill Jupitus
COMEDIAN

Not when I saw him at Edinburgh festival.

Billy Dods, Thursday, 17 January 2008 16:59 (nine years ago) Permalink

I'd like to see an "all dead people" edition of TWL. Especially with Anne Robinson hosting.

The blue-green world is drenched with horse gore, Thursday, 17 January 2008 16:59 (nine years ago) Permalink

Jamie Oliver
Jamie Bell
The Bridewell Taxis
Aleister Crowley
Dr Albarn

The blue-green world is drenched with horse gore, Thursday, 17 January 2008 17:01 (nine years ago) Permalink

Shampoo
PJ & Duncan
Sean Maguire

Tom D., Thursday, 17 January 2008 17:03 (nine years ago) Permalink

The not famous Gallagher brother.

chap, Thursday, 17 January 2008 17:03 (nine years ago) Permalink

Pete Best
Pete Burns
Pete Hooton
Pete Noone
Pete's Dragon

The blue-green world is drenched with horse gore, Thursday, 17 January 2008 17:03 (nine years ago) Permalink

PD Heaton FTW

The blue-green world is drenched with horse gore, Thursday, 17 January 2008 17:04 (nine years ago) Permalink

take that

Herman G. Neuname, Thursday, 17 January 2008 17:04 (nine years ago) Permalink

Jaz Mann
Leeroy out of The Prodigy

chap, Thursday, 17 January 2008 17:07 (nine years ago) Permalink

Jimmy Nail
The Mad Stuntman
John Selwyn Gummer

Tom D., Thursday, 17 January 2008 17:07 (nine years ago) Permalink

Jyoti Mishra
Scatman John
Sylvester Stallone's mum
the one out of Atomic Kitten who isn't a crackhead

The blue-green world is drenched with horse gore, Thursday, 17 January 2008 17:08 (nine years ago) Permalink

I hate to break it to you jim, but the scatman has gone to the great jazz club in the sky.

Herman G. Neuname, Thursday, 17 January 2008 17:09 (nine years ago) Permalink

Oh no! Say it ain't so!

Tom D., Thursday, 17 January 2008 17:10 (nine years ago) Permalink

He's scatting for Jesus now.

chap, Thursday, 17 January 2008 17:11 (nine years ago) Permalink

FUCK

RIP Big Fella. Heaven needed some dude with a big moustache.

The blue-green world is drenched with horse gore, Thursday, 17 January 2008 17:11 (nine years ago) Permalink

"Scat Paradise" (EP) [*] (1995) #45 Japan

^^^ This was epic

The blue-green world is drenched with horse gore, Thursday, 17 January 2008 17:12 (nine years ago) Permalink

Scatman John RIP

Herman G. Neuname, Thursday, 17 January 2008 17:13 (nine years ago) Permalink

Shocker

Tom D., Thursday, 17 January 2008 17:14 (nine years ago) Permalink

The show's bosses...

"bosses"?? lol britspeak

dell, Thursday, 17 January 2008 20:39 (nine years ago) Permalink

its an american term tho, like poobah

blueski, Thursday, 17 January 2008 21:47 (nine years ago) Permalink

Christopher Biggins
Guru Josh
Someone out of the Longpigs who isn't Richard Hawley
Someone out of Hepburn
A COMEDIAN you've never heard of but the BBC have this deal they can't get out of

Dingbod Kesterson, Friday, 18 January 2008 09:42 (nine years ago) Permalink

Calum Waddell

DJ Mencap, Friday, 18 January 2008 10:04 (nine years ago) Permalink

Really am counting down the days until Calum turns up as a talking head on some BBC3 list show.

Dom Passantino, Friday, 18 January 2008 10:05 (nine years ago) Permalink

ILILX?

Mark G, Friday, 18 January 2008 10:10 (nine years ago) Permalink

Dressed in a banana suit.

Noodle Vague, Friday, 18 January 2008 10:11 (nine years ago) Permalink

Why is Norway performing so well culturally in the 00s?
Why are their musicians willing to be more creative?
Does a smaller country facilitate music to thrive more easily compared to other larger European countries?

We surely have our share of really bad copies of English/American teen pop/MOR. It's just that you guys never get to hear that shit. It stays all over the radio here, without ever reaching abroad.

(Even if Idol is a completely ridiculous concept that does music no good, the acts that have come out of the Norwegian Idol are probably better than the average Idol act though - Margaret Berger has even released two excellent albums)

Geir Hongro, Friday, 18 January 2008 10:16 (nine years ago) Permalink

five months pass...

Let us discuss the group "Boys Wonder".

http://downwithtractors.blogspot.com/2008/01/boys-wonder-shine-on-me-expanded-second.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pagLNqe_eUg
http://www.myspace.com/boyswonder

OG proto britpop from 1987!

I mean, they weren't actually good or anything... but, still.

Bodrick III, Wednesday, 9 July 2008 21:55 (eight years ago) Permalink

But this is not run of the mill rock’n’roll, it is decidedly English in flavour. Big Ben’s cockney vocal charm reflects everything that was essentially English about Anthony Newley, early Bowie (‘Love You Till Tuesday’) and the Small Faces on ‘Lazy Sunday’, while the hard and loud guitar pop has been compared to the finest moments of this country’s yob rock: The Who, Slade and the Sex Pistols. The national identity of their music is very important to the Boys.

“We want to sound as English as possible,” explains Ben. “A lot of people think it’s hard to sing in an English accent but I don’t find it hard at all. I think it’s more exciting… we’re from London and we want to get that London sound.”

Bodrick III, Wednesday, 9 July 2008 21:56 (eight years ago) Permalink

http://www.chrishunt.biz/features38.html

Bodrick III, Wednesday, 9 July 2008 21:56 (eight years ago) Permalink

I have only the vaguest memory of this shower, but I think they did get quite a bit of coverage when they were current? The singer in his get-up was something you saw a lot for a month or two back in the day. I suppose they were a bit proto-britpop in retrospect. Music was a bit nowt-nor-summat thought.

Pashmina, Wednesday, 9 July 2008 22:02 (eight years ago) Permalink

Weirdly, I just came across them again on youtube myself. They seemed to be featured in every single issue of i-D magazine between 86 and 88... but no one was 'aving it.

Stevie T, Wednesday, 9 July 2008 22:07 (eight years ago) Permalink

Very interesting! I can't figure out why I don't remember this band at all.
I'm not sure whether I think they're all that good or not, but I can see how they would have seemed markedly different to what else was going on at the time.

Bimble, Wednesday, 9 July 2008 22:27 (eight years ago) Permalink

That myspace is puzzling. Who would set up a page about this band just to zing them?

DJ Mencap, Thursday, 10 July 2008 09:16 (eight years ago) Permalink

Boys Wonder!

At the Panic Station all dayer, they played. During an interval between the afternoon and evening sessions, a different band played on top of an awning that was the front entrance of Dingwalls. They were average. Then Boys Wonder backed their bus into the square playing uptop themselves, the drummer shouting abuse to the other band's drummer, at which point the bus pulled off. To which the other band downed tools and set after them.

At which point, an entirely different band jumped up to the awning and upped tools, and were actually great.

Meantime, the two drummers reappeared knocking bells off each other.

At which point, someone got the third band off the top for insurance reasons (I believe this was Jake Shillingford, who was a git (prob still is) for not letting me stand in the lobby while the interior was megahot and I was only 8.5 stone in those days due to an ongoing illness which eventually got operated on, anyway back to the tale) so they climbed down.

Meantime, the two drummers reappeared again, arm in arm, off to the bar to buy each other pints.

Mark G, Thursday, 10 July 2008 09:45 (eight years ago) Permalink

We just say what we think, look food, play loud and if people like it – fantastic!”

Frogman Henry, Thursday, 10 July 2008 10:27 (eight years ago) Permalink

They must have been hungry and got distracted!

Mark G, Thursday, 10 July 2008 10:29 (eight years ago) Permalink

"That myspace is puzzling. Who would set up a page about this band just to zing them?"

lbzc m.o, no?

Frogman Henry, Thursday, 10 July 2008 10:30 (eight years ago) Permalink

(I believe this was Jake Shillingford, who was a git (prob still is) for not letting me stand in the lobby...

-- Mark G, Thursday, 10 July 2008 09:45

Funny you should mention him because My Life Story is one of the bands these guys remind me of.

Bodrick III, Thursday, 10 July 2008 19:16 (eight years ago) Permalink

three years pass...

and so, here it is; the definitive list of the ultimate 90s genre :


NEW RELEASE

Ooh... it seems like only yesterday we were young & carefree, with our Union Jack T's, alco-pop fuelled Camden nights and that TV show Top of the Pops was crammed with power-chord loaded indie-pop heroes... Tuning in once more, in these grim recessionary times, it all sounds like rather a lot of fun. With the 2012 charts roadblocked by flappy corporate pap and well-schooled posh pop, there's something very refreshing about these geezers, scallies, art-school types & ravers uniting in a very disparate-but-it-worked way to create what became Britpop. Download, play loud and sing along... and be pleasantly suprised as you realise you know pretty much every song. Anthems indeed - Brit Pop will make you smile. So before the Queen's Crew pull rank with her Tea Party and the Olympic Posse get shouting, wave the Union Flag and salute the real good times.

FULL Running order
CD 1
Blur - Parklife
Pulp - Common People
The Verve - Sonnet
Suede - Animal Nitrate
Embrace - Come Back To What You Know
Elastica – Connection
Cast – Sandstorm
Shed Seven - Going For Gold
Catatonia - Road Rage
Paul Weller - Sunflower
Space - Female of the Species
The Farm - Groovy Train
Inspiral Carpets - This Is How It Feels
EMF - Unbelievable
The Mock Turtles - Can You Dig It?
Morcheeba - Tape Loop
Dubstar - Anywhere
The Soup Dragons - I'm Free
Fatboy Slim - Gangster Trippin'
New Order - Fine Time
PF Project Featuring Ewan McGregor - Choose Life
CD2
Supergrass - Alright
Radiohead - Just
Underworld - Born Slippy (NUXX)
Chumbawamba - Tubthumping
The Supernaturals - Smile
Ash - Goldfinger
Doves - Pounding
Garbage - Stupid Girl
The Lightning Seeds - The Life Of Riley
Terrorvision - Tequila
The Levellers - One Way
Travis - Driftwood
Babybird – You’re Gorgeous
The Sundays - Here's Where The Story Ends
The Thrills - Santa Cruz (You're Not That Far)
Mansun - Wide Open Space
Feeder – Buck Rogers
Gomez - Whippin' Piccadilly
Stereo MC's - Connected
Jesus Jones - Real Real Real
James - Sit Down

90 minutes of hell, or a bearable b-b-q soundtrack ?

mark e, Tuesday, 17 April 2012 18:00 (five years ago) Permalink

This track list should be a poll. There are a few good songs here, but so many contenders for ear bleeding misery.

Respectfully, Tyrese Gibson (Nicole), Tuesday, 17 April 2012 18:08 (five years ago) Permalink

There's a maximum of four things on that list i wouldn't run screaming from these days. Oddly, i'm listening to some Czech pastiche Britpop at this very moment and really enjoying it.

Une semaine de Bunty (ShariVari), Tuesday, 17 April 2012 18:14 (five years ago) Permalink

i suspect radio 2/x factor hero dermot o'dreary has been using this list for the last 5 years and emi have just paid him a few quid for the list.

mark e, Tuesday, 17 April 2012 18:15 (five years ago) Permalink

what i love is that @ reading '90 the stereo mcs "joked" about how they were the only hip hop act of the festival.
and here their outburst is confirmed.

baggy beats do not count as hip hop

mark e, Tuesday, 17 April 2012 18:17 (five years ago) Permalink

what are the Thrills doing on there. that doesn't seem right.

kid steel (cajunsunday), Tuesday, 17 April 2012 18:39 (five years ago) Permalink

What is all this baggy / Madchester stuff doing on a "BritPop" comp? Inspiral Carpets? EMF

And stuff that is way too early to be BritPop? The Sundays?

And stuff that was in the original BritPop Select issue - St Etienne, The Auteurs - is nowhere to be seen?

White Chocolate Cheesecake, Tuesday, 17 April 2012 18:43 (five years ago) Permalink

The Thrills were considered Britpop? 2003 seems pretty late for most of that tracklist.

heated debate over derpy hooves (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Tuesday, 17 April 2012 19:00 (five years ago) Permalink

the thrills were considered Britpop? crap.

fixed.

mark e, Tuesday, 17 April 2012 19:02 (five years ago) Permalink

well, yeah. i just never thought they were lumped in with britpop.

heated debate over derpy hooves (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Tuesday, 17 April 2012 19:03 (five years ago) Permalink

^^

as has been pointed out, the thrills along with many many others.

such a mad random list.

still, if i went to a bbq this summer and this was playing in the background i would be in a relatively good mood.

mark e, Tuesday, 17 April 2012 19:20 (five years ago) Permalink

two years pass...

Nice one ithappens
http://www.theguardian.com/music/2014/apr/24/britpop-cultural-abomination-music-blur-oasis

۩, Thursday, 24 April 2014 18:11 (three years ago) Permalink

Matt Scott

24 April 2014 7:11pm
Recommend
0

terrible article from a jealous virgin

Little Saint Hugh of Lincoln (nakhchivan), Thursday, 24 April 2014 18:18 (three years ago) Permalink

Probably not going to pay close attention to he comments on that one.

Unsettled defender (ithappens), Thursday, 24 April 2014 19:01 (three years ago) Permalink

goodoldcause

24 April 2014 7:13pm
Recommend
40

I remember Britpop as a huge relief. Sure, there was a lot of hype and some of the bands weren't able to live up to it. But the time before Britpop, the early 90s, was so dull. Lots of manufactured pop and half-hearted US imports.

Britpop was a much-welcome burst of energy and a resurgence of interesting guitar-led bands, many of them still hugely under-rated. Just go back and listen to anything from that period by The Bluetones: it still holds up.

۩, Thursday, 24 April 2014 19:28 (three years ago) Permalink

half-hearted?

lol bluetones

۩, Thursday, 24 April 2014 19:28 (three years ago) Permalink

There was some good stuff, there was some bad stuff.

Toni Braxton-Hicks (Turrican), Thursday, 24 April 2014 19:56 (three years ago) Permalink

xelab, Thursday, 24 April 2014 20:09 (three years ago) Permalink

good stuff ithappens.

and i say that as a defender of the nwonw groove that britpop killed, and despite the fact i still listen to the menswe@r album on a regular basis.

mark e, Thursday, 24 April 2014 20:19 (three years ago) Permalink

I thought menswe@r were a pile of arse even at the time!

Toni Braxton-Hicks (Turrican), Thursday, 24 April 2014 20:22 (three years ago) Permalink

ha .. yeah .. i know.
everyone did.
but the album is a case of session musicians making a fine glam pop album.
(i never ever believed that anyone in the band had any input other than the vocals)

mark e, Thursday, 24 April 2014 20:25 (three years ago) Permalink

are menswe@r the monkees of the 90s then?

Dr X O'Skeleton, Thursday, 24 April 2014 20:38 (three years ago) Permalink

good call .. i would totally put them in that category.

mark e, Thursday, 24 April 2014 20:39 (three years ago) Permalink

except for the fact that they never got a chance/skill to progress out of that corner, unlike the monkees.

mark e, Thursday, 24 April 2014 20:40 (three years ago) Permalink

Britpop saved the 90s from being a Spice Girls wasteland

it also invented the idea of a band with guitars being any good in the 90s, apparently

Master of Treacle, Thursday, 24 April 2014 21:23 (three years ago) Permalink

That bastard Cowell has ruined EVERYTHING....look at where we are now compared to the days of Northern Uproar

Master of Treacle, Thursday, 24 April 2014 21:33 (three years ago) Permalink

In the britpop timeline I had started getting into Miles, was loving the golden age of rap and house/techno, certainly didn't need none of that garbage. It's like the art equivalent of going to see Rothko, Warhol + Nauman and then pretending that Howard Hodgkin, Peter Blake and Damien Hirst are anything but the talentless arseholes that turned up.

xelab, Thursday, 24 April 2014 21:44 (three years ago) Permalink

It's like the art equivalent of going to see Rothko, Warhol + Nauman and then pretending that Howard Hodgkin, Peter Blake and Damien Hirst are anything but the talentless arseholes that turned up.

imago, Thursday, 24 April 2014 21:46 (three years ago) Permalink

You fucking young british people.

xelab, Thursday, 24 April 2014 21:49 (three years ago) Permalink

i thought i cd read those comments for the lulz but there was no lulz, just deep sadness, then despair, then the rising urge to take off and nuke the country from orbit

you poll a lot, but you're not saying anything (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 24 April 2014 21:53 (three years ago) Permalink

this would be a lovely place to discuss the oasis reunion

imago, Thursday, 24 April 2014 21:55 (three years ago) Permalink

Meh. There was some good stuff, there was some bad stuff.

Toni Braxton-Hicks (Turrican), Thursday, 24 April 2014 21:55 (three years ago) Permalink

There was some good stuff, there was some bad stuff.

― Toni Braxton-Hicks (Turrican), Thursday, April 24, 2014 7:56 PM (2 hours ago)

....

mark e, Thursday, 24 April 2014 21:59 (three years ago) Permalink

the piece isn't about whether people from the British indie scene made any worthwhile music between 1994 and 1997, it's about the way scenes are formed and consumed, about the way media representation interacts with public consciousness, the way pop music discourse in the UK has got stupider and narrower over the last 20 years. there was good points, there was some bad points.

you poll a lot, but you're not saying anything (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 24 April 2014 22:02 (three years ago) Permalink

The first good point was when some worthless prick nearly expired from heroin use, but ah then he pretended that he detoxed with night nurse and survived. When reminiscing about old scenes, when your your first thought is "I wish that fucker had died" there is something gravely absent from the music.

xelab, Thursday, 24 April 2014 22:17 (three years ago) Permalink

Really liked then and still like: Blur, The Boo Radleys, Pulp, Suede, Supergrass, Super Furry Animals, Manic Street Preachers,
Radiohead (because they were lumped in with this circa The Bends), The Stone Roses (pre-dated Britpop but were also lumped in), The Verve (yes, they were a shoegaze band, but Urban Hymns was definitely a "tail-end of Britpop" record and appealed to that audience).

Don't mind: Ash, The Bluetones, Elastica, Marion, Oasis (1994-1996), 60ft. Dolls, Sleeper, Gorky's Zygotic Mynci, Idlewild, Mansun,
early Dodgy, The Auteurs, the first Catatonia album, Geneva, Placebo, Primal Scream, Ride, Teenage Fanclub, Paul Weller solo (I make no apologies for it).

Ngghhhhhhhhh: Cast, Me Me Me, Northern Uproar, Oasis (1997 onwards), Ocean Colour Scene, Kula Shaker, Longpigs, The Seahorses, Space,
The Supernaturals, Travis, Bernard Butler (solo), Kenickie, The Lightning Seeds, Stereophonics.

Never cared about even at the time: Black Grape, The Divine Comedy, Echobelly ('Great Things' aside), Gene, Heavy Stereo, Menswe@r,
My Life Story, Powder, Salad, Shed Seven, These Animal Men, Thurman, Dawn Of The Replicants, Dubstar, Embrace, Feeder, Gay Dad,
The Gyres, Hurricane #1, Nilon Bombers, Octopus, Perfume, Puressence, Rialto, Snow Patrol, Symposium, Theaudience, Toploader,
The Charlatans ('The Only One I Know' aside) and many many more...

Toni Braxton-Hicks (Turrican), Thursday, 24 April 2014 22:17 (three years ago) Permalink

hmmm. more like Britpoop.

mattresslessness, Thursday, 24 April 2014 22:20 (three years ago) Permalink

The first couple Divine Comedy albums are sooooo good. They just fill me with joy. xp

she started dancing to that (Finefinemusic), Thursday, 24 April 2014 22:20 (three years ago) Permalink

I know we on the Guardian will liveblog most things, but the Mirror has spent this evening liveblogging Liam Gallagher tweeting the letters O, A, S, I and S

Unsettled defender (ithappens), Thursday, 24 April 2014 22:23 (three years ago) Permalink

good luck great britain

mattresslessness, Thursday, 24 April 2014 22:25 (three years ago) Permalink

this would be a lovely place to discuss the oasis reunion

― imago, Thursday, April 24, 2014 10:55 PM (33 minutes ago)

the what now

glumdalclitch, Thursday, 24 April 2014 22:29 (three years ago) Permalink

The problem that I generally have with retrospective articles that focus on Britpop, is that they assume a lot of things: while I generally remember an optimistic mood and hot summers in the mid '90s; I never read Loaded, I've never found myself in the situation where I've been pissed out my mind with an arm around a best mate bellowing 'Don't Look Back In Anger' out of tune, there were a lot of bands I didn't care for at the time, and I didn't solely listen to Britpop bands - there were a lot of things going on.

Toni Braxton-Hicks (Turrican), Thursday, 24 April 2014 22:36 (three years ago) Permalink

know we on the Guardian will liveblog most things, but the Mirror has spent this evening liveblogging Liam Gallagher tweeting the letters O, A, S, I and S

xelab, Thursday, 24 April 2014 22:37 (three years ago) Permalink

Oasis was a band I never quite understood how they were a) so popular, and b) compared to the Beatles so much. Kinda boring songs, annoying vocalist, sounded nothing like the Beatles.

Britpop in general seemed like a breath of fresh air to me in the 90s, wherein British bands played music that seemed at least somewhat influenced by British music I actually liked (XTC, Kinks, Beatles again), but then really only listened to Blur, Elastica, some Supergrass.

Dominique, Thursday, 24 April 2014 22:37 (three years ago) Permalink

I just don't like this insinuation that people who listened to Blur and Suede in the mid '90s also dug Northern Uproar and Menswe@r... in my case, fuck no! I fucking loved 'Firestarter', 'Hyper-Ballad' and R.E.M.'s New Adventures In Hi-Fi though, for example.

Toni Braxton-Hicks (Turrican), Thursday, 24 April 2014 22:43 (three years ago) Permalink

actually, it seems that supergrass have avoided a lot of current britpop hate, which perhaps gives hope that beyond the debut, they were a band beyond such a narrow minded genre.

i.e. of all the supposed britpop bands, supergrass are the one band i still listen to, and enjoy.

mark e, Thursday, 24 April 2014 22:45 (three years ago) Permalink

x-post

Well yeah, and as I wasn't a British person while it was going on, it was super easy to not just listen to Britpop (or any other single genre for that matter). In fact, even at the time, I always thought the term was a bit ridiculous. What does it mean? Rock bands from Britain? Can you call that a genre? It just seemed like an umbrella term for UK indie rock, like calling a genre that featured Neutral Milk Hotel, Fugazi and Wilco Ameripop.

Dominique, Thursday, 24 April 2014 22:49 (three years ago) Permalink

I said on my fb about how the older fans of britpop (aka the roses/primals fans) loved dance music and how we all thought oasis "would do a screamadelica" on their 3rd album , and how said dance acts supported oasis and were seen as britpop along WITH the spice girls (Geri's union jack dress), robbie williams etc but post 1997 going to #10 Cool Britannia the kids chose to go with "real music" and now Britpop has come to mean only white guitar pop. ffs i went to gigs with friends who were into britpop and baggy and grunge but also ravers, goldie fans, massive attack, prodigy, underworld, leftfield,aphex fans. 1995/96 wasnt as bad as what followed. (if its tl;dr - what turrican said)

۩, Thursday, 24 April 2014 22:59 (three years ago) Permalink

"I know we on the Guardian will liveblog most things, but the Mirror has spent this evening"... wah wah wah Even if I am stuck in a station with one pound odd in my pocket, never buying this fucking garbage again.

xelab, Thursday, 24 April 2014 22:59 (three years ago) Permalink

classifying the manics as britpop seems kind of off, even their softer post-1994 material doesn't really have much in common with any of the rest of those bands.

(The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Thursday, 24 April 2014 23:01 (three years ago) Permalink

xxxpost:

Yup, I also thought (even at the time) that the term 'Britpop' was ridiculous. In my mind, I definitely wasn't lumping all of these bands together as one thing... to me, there was a whole slew of stuff happening and I was mentally filing it into 'music I like' and 'music I don't', the same as any year.

Toni Braxton-Hicks (Turrican), Thursday, 24 April 2014 23:01 (three years ago) Permalink

rmde xp

mattresslessness, Thursday, 24 April 2014 23:02 (three years ago) Permalink

turrican are you british?

mattresslessness, Thursday, 24 April 2014 23:03 (three years ago) Permalink

i like indie rock and roll

you poll a lot, but you're not saying anything (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 24 April 2014 23:06 (three years ago) Permalink

I said on my fb about how the older fans of britpop (aka the roses/primals fans) loved dance music and how we all thought oasis "would do a screamadelica" on their 3rd album , and how said dance acts supported oasis and were seen as britpop along WITH the spice girls (Geri's union jack dress), robbie williams etc but post 1997 going to #10 Cool Britannia the kids chose to go with "real music" and now Britpop has come to mean only white guitar pop. ffs i went to gigs with friends who were into britpop and baggy and grunge but also ravers, goldie fans, massive attack, prodigy, underworld, leftfield,aphex fans. 1995/96 wasnt as bad as what followed. (if its tl;dr - what turrican said)

― ۩, Thursday, April 24, 2014 10:59 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

^ This.

I mean, I know a lot of folks that loved the first couple of Oasis records (they sold a shitload, so obviously I would) that also loved Massive Attack, Prodigy, Underworld, Leftfield, The Chemical Brothers, Aphex Twin, Bjork etc. etc. etc.

Toni Braxton-Hicks (Turrican), Thursday, 24 April 2014 23:07 (three years ago) Permalink

fucking hell, all that different stuff?

you poll a lot, but you're not saying anything (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 24 April 2014 23:08 (three years ago) Permalink

endless variety

mattresslessness, Thursday, 24 April 2014 23:09 (three years ago) Permalink

actually, it seems that supergrass have avoided a lot of current britpop hate, which perhaps gives hope that beyond the debut, they were a band beyond such a narrow minded genre.

i.e. of all the supposed britpop bands, supergrass are the one band i still listen to, and enjoy.

― mark e, Thursday, April 24, 2014 10:45 PM (22 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I still have a lot of time for Supergrass, and even though 'Diamond Hoo Ha' was hardly their finest album, I still think they had plenty more in them.

Toni Braxton-Hicks (Turrican), Thursday, 24 April 2014 23:09 (three years ago) Permalink

lolll xp

Little Saint Hugh of Lincoln (nakhchivan), Thursday, 24 April 2014 23:09 (three years ago) Permalink

fucking hell, all that different stuff?

― you poll a lot, but you're not saying anything (Noodle Vague), Thursday, April 24, 2014 11:08 PM (52 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I'm being general, but you get the point :)

Toni Braxton-Hicks (Turrican), Thursday, 24 April 2014 23:10 (three years ago) Permalink

well NV as you know fine well something happened and "indie" fans went from iking all forms of dance music and hip hop to craig david lookalike on the toilet on Melody Maker and nme readers only wanting guitar music.
1997 seemed to be when it happened too in my mind.

۩, Thursday, 24 April 2014 23:11 (three years ago) Permalink

classifying the manics as britpop seems kind of off, even their softer post-1994 material doesn't really have much in common with any of the rest of those bands.

― (The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Thursday, April 24, 2014 11:01 PM (9 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

It does, but circa Everything Must Go and 'A Design For Life', they were definitely lumped in with the Britpop lot.

Toni Braxton-Hicks (Turrican), Thursday, 24 April 2014 23:12 (three years ago) Permalink

The first couple Divine Comedy albums are sooooo good. They just fill me with joy. xp

― she started dancing to that (Finefinemusic)

Liberation, Promenade and Casanova is possibly my favourite album run of the 90s.

Kitchen Person, Thursday, 24 April 2014 23:19 (three years ago) Permalink

I still have a lot of time for Supergrass, and even though 'Diamond Hoo Ha' was hardly their finest album, I still think they had plenty more in them.

― Toni Braxton-Hicks (Turrican)

Such a great band. Just listened to the first two albums today and enjoyed them a ridiculous amount.

Kitchen Person, Thursday, 24 April 2014 23:22 (three years ago) Permalink

hah, I thought The Divine Comedy/My Life Story stuff was some of the worst britpop on a par with bluetones and ocean colour scene

۩, Thursday, 24 April 2014 23:23 (three years ago) Permalink

I loved them both at the time but Divine Comedy still sound great to me now where as My Life Story now sounded as dated as the worst Britpop bands. I really do understand why people dislike the Divine Comedy but they've been one of my favourite bands for almost twenty years now.

Kitchen Person, Thursday, 24 April 2014 23:25 (three years ago) Permalink

I dunno why but I thought you were in your mid to late twenties

۩, Thursday, 24 April 2014 23:27 (three years ago) Permalink

I'm just about to turn thirty one. I was probably twelve/thirteen when I first got into them.

Kitchen Person, Thursday, 24 April 2014 23:32 (three years ago) Permalink

There were a whole number of things in '97 that had me thinking "yeah, this is getting a bit silly now"... Be Here Now has always been cited as being "the end", but there was a whole load of other nonsense going on. Stuff like Catch (essentially a glorified boyband) putting out 'Bingo', Robbie Williams' Liam Gallagher-isms on 'Old Before I Die'... I remember watching a video of Embrace doing 'All You Good Good People' on MTV and hearing Danny McNamara's foghorn vocal and thinking "seriously!?", stuff like Travis...

Toni Braxton-Hicks (Turrican), Thursday, 24 April 2014 23:36 (three years ago) Permalink

20 years ago I was getting into dance music, funk, krautrock, jazz and classic canon and even classic weird stuff. Used to order things in through the local library. Expanding my knowledge from grunge/metal/indie/industrial that was my listening for the 3 years previous.
My mate got cds by funkadelic/tim buckley/can and i was hooked. bought mc5, stooges,can,kraftwerk, 13th floor elevators cds as well as my own cds of the ones my mate got. Already liked a lot of 60s stuff by 1994 so britpop mainly seemed a rehash of the good stuff for me aged 21

۩, Thursday, 24 April 2014 23:40 (three years ago) Permalink

The funny thing was Be Here Now got amazing reviews (to make up for terrible reviews of morning glory). It was those who bought it who hated it. Yet it was still their 3rd best studio album lol

۩, Thursday, 24 April 2014 23:41 (three years ago) Permalink

they just picked up so many new fans each album (many of whom never heard the first)
They really were massive in the UK weren't they? Pretty staggering really. Was that the last time the british music industry were basically printing money?

I remember in the aftermath the best record shop in glasgow expanded and opened other shops during the boom and it killed it. Maybe thats another reason i hate britpop so much?

۩, Thursday, 24 April 2014 23:44 (three years ago) Permalink

xpost:

Yeah, I had young parents, so there was a lot of late '70s/early '80s music in my parents record collection which I had been exposed to/was consciously listening to around that time.

Toni Braxton-Hicks (Turrican), Thursday, 24 April 2014 23:48 (three years ago) Permalink

Oasis were stupidly huge in 1996-1997, absolutely fucking stupidly huge. It wasn't just that they sold millions of copies of Morning Glory and played to thousands of people at Knebworth, they just seemed to be everywhere. I remember some episode of The Vicar Of Dibley being on in '96, and two of the main characters arguing over what kind of Oasis advent calendar they wanted "the Liam one or the Noel one", and there were a thousands more examples besides... there just seemed to be a point where you couldn't avoid them.

Toni Braxton-Hicks (Turrican), Thursday, 24 April 2014 23:54 (three years ago) Permalink

Having said that...

Toni Braxton-Hicks (Turrican), Thursday, 24 April 2014 23:57 (three years ago) Permalink

I remember that. Still got a soft spot for Game On. Matthew invented emo remember ;)

۩, Friday, 25 April 2014 00:00 (three years ago) Permalink

Daniel Hewson

25 April 2014 1:54am
Recommend
2

Whatever you say about Britpop, the current UK music scene can't muster a worthy Glastonbury headliner, last year the Rolling Stones, year before U2. British Glastonbury headliners weren't a problem in the 90s. Where in Nick Clegg's 'modern' Britain are the Great British bands we used to produce? Or am I longing for W.G. Grace?

ithappens is as popular with the guardian commentors as a fart in a spacesuit for his article.

Well done!

۩, Friday, 25 April 2014 01:24 (three years ago) Permalink

and yes where in this guys modern Britain is Dublin?

۩, Friday, 25 April 2014 01:25 (three years ago) Permalink

۩, Friday, 25 April 2014 04:04 (three years ago) Permalink

Tony Riviere

24 April 2014 7:19pm
Recommend
64

Though not a fan, I think Britpop reaffirmed what it was to be British, white and male. Black music informs so much of modern pop and rock (and there is nothing wrong with that) that it was most refreshing for bands to stick their heads above the parapets and wave their mojos in the face of the PC norms of journo-driven hip but utterly soulless media icons.

What is wrong with songs? Absolutely nothing. Songs are great. (DL), Friday, 25 April 2014 11:36 (three years ago) Permalink

ILX's favourite sport: find the idiot, quote the idiot

imago, Friday, 25 April 2014 11:42 (three years ago) Permalink

everyday sheeple (Michael B), Friday, 25 April 2014 11:49 (three years ago) Permalink

xxp impressive how much of the article he can agree with while coming to the opposite conclusion

ogmor, Friday, 25 April 2014 12:05 (three years ago) Permalink

Fans replied in their thousands, demanding an explanation with many suggesting it could mean the long pined-for reunion.

"WHAT DOES THIS MEAN" one wrote, "DUDE" another said, with a third adding: "Oh my god it's happening".

This is the internet though, so obviously there was also a "Shut up I hate you".

pick it up for ripple laser (onimo), Friday, 25 April 2014 12:10 (three years ago) Permalink

yeah, I got 22

Mark G, Friday, 25 April 2014 12:54 (three years ago) Permalink

18, but with a lot of guesswork

A frenzied geologist (Tom D.), Friday, 25 April 2014 12:55 (three years ago) Permalink

Oh shit, I got 23. In my defence, this was the era I grew up in. ;_;

emil.y, Friday, 25 April 2014 13:03 (three years ago) Permalink

15 and so did I, albeit in NZ

sonic thedgehod (albvivertine), Friday, 25 April 2014 13:11 (three years ago) Permalink

27, please shoot me.

Yuri Bashment (ShariVari), Friday, 25 April 2014 13:13 (three years ago) Permalink

22 but only coz I read Select religiously every week.

(I'm far prouder of scoring 12 out of 13 on "Cornish or Dothraki" to be honest)

Branwell Bell, Friday, 25 April 2014 13:15 (three years ago) Permalink

24. And life goes on.

Toni Braxton-Hicks (Turrican), Friday, 25 April 2014 13:21 (three years ago) Permalink

Oh dear. I got 26.

Kitchen Person, Friday, 25 April 2014 14:13 (three years ago) Permalink

Really wish it had been Heavy Stereo on the Yanks Go Home Select cover.

Kitchen Person, Friday, 25 April 2014 14:14 (three years ago) Permalink

21. Tbf anyone who read MM/NME/Select around that time will score pretty well.

everyday sheeple (Michael B), Friday, 25 April 2014 14:47 (three years ago) Permalink

17, from Canada! I worked hard for that score. Select cost ~$10!

she started dancing to that (Finefinemusic), Friday, 25 April 2014 15:19 (three years ago) Permalink

19, with a lot of guesses, and a reasonable number I got right by virtue of it happening around me (the Good Mixer was my local, I worked near Berwick St, etc)

Turtleneck Work Solutions (Nasty, Brutish & Short), Friday, 25 April 2014 16:58 (three years ago) Permalink

19. but frankly i hate this music and wish it would die

It's Pablum Time with (NickB), Friday, 25 April 2014 17:00 (three years ago) Permalink

I got 24. Who knew Parklife almost had a fruit & veg cart on the cover?

۩, Friday, 25 April 2014 18:44 (three years ago) Permalink

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Av9Vn48fOEs

St George's Day knees-up at The Red Lion in Leytonstone - 23rd April 2014

Little Saint Hugh of Lincoln (nakhchivan), Friday, 25 April 2014 20:51 (three years ago) Permalink

hermione008018 hours ago

This is just bonkers! Can you imagine, you are having a pint in a pub and suddenly Damon Albarn is there singing Parklife???!!!! I bloody love London! :)

I honestly think I would be overjoyed if I was having a pint in a pub and suddenly Damon Albarn was there singing Parklife

soref, Friday, 25 April 2014 21:00 (three years ago) Permalink

if it was Phil Daniels tho I'd glass the cunt eh lads

imago, Friday, 25 April 2014 21:03 (three years ago) Permalink

After you got his autograph?

pfunkboy (Algerian Goalkeeper), Friday, 25 April 2014 21:45 (three years ago) Permalink

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soref, Friday, 25 April 2014 21:53 (three years ago) Permalink

Anyone who concedes that they love music and then expressing anything other than contempt for 90's britpop should be fined at first and then sent to a gulag - the wank CD packing division. Ffs people still talking about this fucking dreck now :(:(:( and Albarn is still alive :(:(:(:(:(:(:( and lots of these cunts are still working bands :(:(:(:(:(:(

xelab, Friday, 25 April 2014 22:55 (three years ago) Permalink

I think most of those posting comments only like that era of music. they were either at school/college just started work and when they got married or whatever they gave up on music (ok yeah like most "normal" people).
They're more in tune with the majority than we are though.

۩, Friday, 25 April 2014 22:57 (three years ago) Permalink

no no no no no, the actual majority of people don't give a milligram of fuck about this

you poll a lot, but you're not saying anything (Noodle Vague), Friday, 25 April 2014 23:16 (three years ago) Permalink

I can't answer more than a few of those on the quiz but I still have a (distannt transatlantic) fondness for a lot of that mid-90's British music - as long as I don't have to hear them speak much.

J'ai toujours préféré la folie des passions à la sagesse de (Michael White), Friday, 25 April 2014 23:23 (three years ago) Permalink

I really loathe that era, it was the commercial triumph of the deluded morons, much prefer the chart music of now tbh.

xelab, Friday, 25 April 2014 23:38 (three years ago) Permalink

seems like the last uk chart music movement that made majoritarian claims? idk, too young at the time thankfully, even so it seemed sort of ubiquitous in a lowering, britpop uber alles, wholely unfriendly way, even though i couldn't have cared less about it

Little Saint Hugh of Lincoln (nakhchivan), Friday, 25 April 2014 23:43 (three years ago) Permalink

those specious presumably fake statistics about however many cunts tried to get tickets to see oasis at knebworth

Little Saint Hugh of Lincoln (nakhchivan), Friday, 25 April 2014 23:44 (three years ago) Permalink

yeah but that's a presumed majority of a minority. pop music and the charts already well on the way by 1994 to being a ghettoized subslice of the population's musical experience, this last gasp of the Boomers or wannabe Boomers desperate for their reductive fax of rock and/or roll to be significant like the 1960s but much too late, using their media grip to pretend otherwise even as the media slipped away from significance itself

you poll a lot, but you're not saying anything (Noodle Vague), Friday, 25 April 2014 23:48 (three years ago) Permalink

good-natured BBC journalists in on the charade covering Blur vs Oasis all baffled-like as if this iteration of popular music wasn't a crusty 30 plus year-old institution

you poll a lot, but you're not saying anything (Noodle Vague), Friday, 25 April 2014 23:50 (three years ago) Permalink

I owe you a quid

Turtleneck Work Solutions (Nasty, Brutish & Short), Friday, 25 April 2014 23:51 (three years ago) Permalink

rock and roll and The Teenager must be saved at all costs, too heavily entrenched in the consumer model now to let go when adolescence lasts well into yr pensionable years

xp?? lol?

you poll a lot, but you're not saying anything (Noodle Vague), Friday, 25 April 2014 23:52 (three years ago) Permalink

nostalgia for a majoritarian culture probably itself relying on a mythic falsification that literally every person literally gave a shit about the beatles back in 1968 or whatever

almost a volkisch element to it, british people love this idea that all of the other british people love the same shit

find it hard not to write something like 'brotip' when i try to write britpop

Little Saint Hugh of Lincoln (nakhchivan), Saturday, 26 April 2014 00:02 (three years ago) Permalink

19. but frankly i hate this music and wish it would die

― It's Pablum Time with (NickB), Friday, April 25, 2014 5:00 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

popchips: the next snapple? (seandalai), Saturday, 26 April 2014 00:16 (three years ago) Permalink

My first love was the Pet Shop Boys and I have never accepted boring, stodgy army reserve type cunts in music. So Neil Tennant knows the score.

xelab, Saturday, 26 April 2014 00:20 (three years ago) Permalink

I got 8 on that quiz, I win

ogmor, Saturday, 26 April 2014 00:50 (three years ago) Permalink

I remember myself an my brother laughing at an MM cover about Britpop (94? 95?). We started saying "Brrrritpop"" in plummy accents and imagined that the ultimate Britpop band would wear suits and bowler hats.

everyday sheeple (Michael B), Saturday, 26 April 2014 00:56 (three years ago) Permalink

and a sash?

۩, Saturday, 26 April 2014 02:23 (three years ago) Permalink

Orange Uproar

everyday sheeple (Michael B), Saturday, 26 April 2014 11:01 (three years ago) Permalink

I scored 19 on that quiz, mostly down to being a student at the time and skimming other people's copies of Select/etc..

an office job is as secure as a Weetabix padlock (snoball), Saturday, 26 April 2014 12:05 (three years ago) Permalink

That yougov poll (pdf) from the other day tries to answer the do-ppl-give-a-fuck questions. But the only thing that jumped out at me was that lib dems lean strongly to Blur.

woof, Saturday, 26 April 2014 12:26 (three years ago) Permalink

Next year is the 20th anniversary of

۩, Saturday, 26 April 2014 16:32 (three years ago) Permalink

PATRICK EGGLE!

Mark G, Saturday, 26 April 2014 19:33 (three years ago) Permalink

I actually bought the Orlando album a few years later and really enjoyed it for a while. Since then it's gone to the same place as my My Life Story albums.

Kitchen Person, Saturday, 26 April 2014 19:36 (three years ago) Permalink

Hell?

۩, Saturday, 26 April 2014 19:44 (three years ago) Permalink

I was thinking it was more likely just in a box to give to charity but I do have a feeling I sold it on Amazon. I know it was going for quite a lot at one point.

Have never actually heard Plastic Fantastic, Sexus or Dexdexter. Should check them out.

Kitchen Person, Saturday, 26 April 2014 20:21 (three years ago) Permalink

I also have the Ornaldo album

kinder, Saturday, 26 April 2014 20:46 (three years ago) Permalink

THE BEATLES
two-page special

bizarro gazzara, Saturday, 26 April 2014 20:47 (three years ago) Permalink

Did any of those Romo bands actually <i>sound</i> like 80s new romantics, or was the romo scene all about looks and image? My impression was the latter. Musically, La Roux were probably much closer to the sound of 1982 than any of the Romo bands would ever manage.

The GeirBot (Geir Hongro), Saturday, 26 April 2014 21:44 (three years ago) Permalink

geir otm.

(and welcome back)

mark e, Saturday, 26 April 2014 21:50 (three years ago) Permalink

Loving Roxy Music stuck in the bottom corner in a Romo special

Master of Treacle, Saturday, 26 April 2014 22:12 (three years ago) Permalink

ha i know that one guy on the cover of that. hiya stuart!

ricky don't lose that number nine shirt (NickB), Saturday, 26 April 2014 22:35 (three years ago) Permalink

The band was formed in 1997 by Supergrass drummer Danny Goffey and his girlfriend Pearl Lowe, the former vocalist with Powder.[1] The line-up was completed by co-vocalist Neil Carlill and guitarist Will Foster, both of Delicatessen.[1][2] Lowe and Carlill's dual vocals drew comparisons with Nancy Sinatra and Lee Hazlewood.[1][2]

Little Saint Hugh of Lincoln (nakhchivan), Sunday, 27 April 2014 01:30 (three years ago) Permalink

I'd forgotten about the existence of Lodger. Think I only heard one single of theirs ('I'm Leaving')... didn't care about them at all.

Toni Braxton-Hicks (Turrican), Sunday, 27 April 2014 02:10 (three years ago) Permalink

I love kenickie's first album but always considered it "punk pop". It was so much better than the mallpunk garbage we got in the u.s.

brimstead, Sunday, 27 April 2014 02:18 (three years ago) Permalink

The whole "romo" thing just sums up how disgusting uk music mag culture is, sorry

brimstead, Sunday, 27 April 2014 02:19 (three years ago) Permalink

oh dear, perhaps i'm mistaking Romo for Grebo

brimstead, Sunday, 27 April 2014 02:20 (three years ago) Permalink

upon cursory research, disgust applies to both romo and grebo

brimstead, Sunday, 27 April 2014 02:21 (three years ago) Permalink

I'd forgotten about the existence of Lodger. Think I only heard one single of theirs ('I'm Leaving')... didn't care about them at all.

― Toni Braxton-Hicks (Turrican)

I bought all three Lodger singles but didn't end up getting the album. Still have a soft spot for I'm Leaving but can't remember anything about the other singles.

Kitchen Person, Sunday, 27 April 2014 04:00 (three years ago) Permalink

They were no Rialto

Master of Treacle, Sunday, 27 April 2014 05:02 (three years ago) Permalink

I think I remember Rialto for being comp to Scott Walker, maybe?

sonic thedgehod (albvivertine), Sunday, 27 April 2014 05:21 (three years ago) Permalink

Romo was pretty much just Simon Price, iirc. Although the music was broadly terrible, the reaction to it seemed worse than the original push behind it. The relationship with Britpop was mostly oppositional.

Yuri Bashment (ShariVari), Sunday, 27 April 2014 06:57 (three years ago) Permalink

Cinerama did what Rialto attempted to do many miles better

PaulTMA, Sunday, 27 April 2014 11:15 (three years ago) Permalink

At around this time, a first anniversary party was held for Club Skinny headlined by Crush, the band of former Byker Grove TV stars Donna Air and Jayni Hoi. However, continued tensions in the scene led to the discontinuation of both Skinny and Arcadia in July 1996. Romo activities continued at the individual bands' concerts (although one Plastic Fantastic concert at Dingwalls from this time ended in a mass brawl after a hat was thrown onstage).[40]

۩, Sunday, 27 April 2014 11:37 (three years ago) Permalink

fuck throwing a hat

bizarro gazzara, Sunday, 27 April 2014 11:54 (three years ago) Permalink

27th of April is the Fuck washing a hat day.

― Mark G, Friday, 21 January 2011 12:26 (3 years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

bizarro gazzara, Sunday, 27 April 2014 12:08 (three years ago) Permalink

lol crush
sounded like a republica tribute act iirc

kinder, Sunday, 27 April 2014 12:10 (three years ago) Permalink

Rialto's thing was having two drummers, and the guy from Kinky Machine

Master of Treacle, Sunday, 27 April 2014 12:41 (three years ago) Permalink

Britpop was our moon landing, except janglier. It was our Summer of Love, our Nelson Mandela's presidential years, our fall of the wall.

۩, Sunday, 27 April 2014 14:50 (three years ago) Permalink

The full line is

Britpop was our moon landing, except janglier. It was our Summer of Love, our Nelson Mandela's presidential years, our fall of the wall. It was the awkward suburban girl's Wonderful World of Colour. The never-kissed's big bang.

۩, Sunday, 27 April 2014 14:56 (three years ago) Permalink

Xposts I said that?

Mark G, Sunday, 27 April 2014 16:25 (three years ago) Permalink

Last post here: Classics Found: Fuck Washing a Hat

bizarro gazzara, Sunday, 27 April 2014 19:14 (three years ago) Permalink

They were no Rialto

― Master of Treacle

Really liked Rialto at the time. When they got dropped just before the album came out I remember paying £20 for it on Import in HMV. So much money wasted on CD's from that time. Everything Bennet ever released, albums and single by Mover, Joacasta, 18 Wheeler and Ether. Anyone remember Ether? The guy's voice was just ridiculous!

Kitchen Person, Sunday, 27 April 2014 20:38 (three years ago) Permalink

http://youtu.be/HmnhsHtqzKk

Kitchen Person, Sunday, 27 April 2014 20:41 (three years ago) Permalink

Yeah, I had one of their songs on a compilation, think I ended up in email correspondence with one of them?

kinder, Sunday, 27 April 2014 20:42 (three years ago) Permalink

ugh just listened to it and it's horrible

kinder, Sunday, 27 April 2014 20:43 (three years ago) Permalink

hated Rialto too

kinder, Sunday, 27 April 2014 20:45 (three years ago) Permalink

actually no, I'm confusing them with someone else...

kinder, Sunday, 27 April 2014 20:46 (three years ago) Permalink

rofl 18 wheeler

۩, Sunday, 27 April 2014 20:46 (three years ago) Permalink

nothing can be worse than

۩, Sunday, 27 April 2014 20:47 (three years ago) Permalink

I was doing work experience at a record shop when the Ether album came out. After a few days the owner said they couldn't pay me but I could have a couple of new CD's instead. The first album I picked was their album (as I'd enjoyed a couple of singles) That is a decision that still haunts me today. Luckily my second choice was Pulp's This is Hardcore.

Kitchen Person, Sunday, 27 April 2014 20:47 (three years ago) Permalink

Xposts Thanks, bizarro gazzara.

Nice to see the day is being observed.

Mark G, Sunday, 27 April 2014 20:47 (three years ago) Permalink

xp Monaco, that's who I'm confusing Rialto with

kinder, Sunday, 27 April 2014 20:49 (three years ago) Permalink

Re catch

I don't recall that totp perf, but he looks exactly as I assumed.

Reminds me of listening to xfm where they played it over and.

Awful.

Mark G, Sunday, 27 April 2014 20:50 (three years ago) Permalink

xpost Don't know which is my favourite 18 Wheeler moment. Them being forced to play some Labour event and being introduced by Tony Blair as Wheeler 18 or Alan McGee claiming their last album was going to be the new Screamadelica.

Kitchen Person, Sunday, 27 April 2014 20:50 (three years ago) Permalink

The worst of these bands (that will occasionally get stuck in my head) is Ruth. (Sorry to remind everyone of them.)

There used to be a website probably over 10 years ago at this point called "This is Romo" where you could listen to Sexus and Plastic Fantastic and the like. They were all pretty bad, but the DexDexter song was ok. I still love the Orlando record, but I also have Fosca records, so...

I sort of like Rialto and their 2-drummer attempt at sweeping romanticism, but they lyrics were way sub-Suede/Pulp.

DonkeyTeeth, Sunday, 27 April 2014 22:20 (three years ago) Permalink

*their lyrics. Ignore the grammatical mess there.

DonkeyTeeth, Sunday, 27 April 2014 22:21 (three years ago) Permalink

I'm pretty sure someone once mentioned this band Ruth and i said "Who?" and a video was posted.

But I cant remember. So I'll just say who? (again?)

۩, Sunday, 27 April 2014 22:56 (three years ago) Permalink

Joacasta kind of invented Muse. I bet Tim Arnold is pissed off about that.

Ruth appeared on Blue Peter, performing their song Fear Of Flying. I imagine someday they'll be on a box set with the likes of The Smiles, The Young Offenders and Laxtons Superb. Or perhaps music will have been abolished by then

PaulTMA, Sunday, 27 April 2014 23:24 (three years ago) Permalink

And also with The Poppyheads of 'Wake Up America", 'fame'

PaulTMA, Sunday, 27 April 2014 23:25 (three years ago) Permalink

Ruth were a very late in the day Britpop act who had one hit single with a track called 'I Don't Know', struggled to follow it up and then got dropped. They then re-named themselves The 45's, got another record deal, couldn't get a hit and got dropped again. Then Matt Hales, their lead singer, became Aqualung (of 'Strange and Beautiful' fame).

Toni Braxton-Hicks (Turrican), Sunday, 27 April 2014 23:25 (three years ago) Permalink

After that, he started co-writing tracks for Boyzone, Jason Mraz, Paloma Faith etc.

Toni Braxton-Hicks (Turrican), Sunday, 27 April 2014 23:27 (three years ago) Permalink

Ruth talking about mental health on the National Lottery...

Toni Braxton-Hicks (Turrican), Sunday, 27 April 2014 23:31 (three years ago) Permalink

Anyway, fuck Ruth, anyone remember Speedy!?

Toni Braxton-Hicks (Turrican), Sunday, 27 April 2014 23:33 (three years ago) Permalink

nope

popchips: the next snapple? (seandalai), Sunday, 27 April 2014 23:36 (three years ago) Permalink

no

۩, Sunday, 27 April 2014 23:43 (three years ago) Permalink

you poll a lot, but you're not saying anything (Noodle Vague), Sunday, 27 April 2014 23:50 (three years ago) Permalink

worst band ive ever seen in my life T In The Park 1995 NME Tent. They were so bad they made me think the next band I saw (Cast) was good

۩, Sunday, 27 April 2014 23:55 (three years ago) Permalink

Just reading the Taylor Parkes piece on The Quietusatm, I havent finished it and yes its great but these does anyone else feel with a lot of these anti-Britpop that it is getting the blame for things that its not neccesarily its fault? Yes it was bound up in the time, the zeitgeist and it reflected the neo-liberal ethos of the time. but to say that the cover of "parklife" in walthamstow dog track is somewhow indicative of the rise of gentrification is a bit of a stretch. most of these bands were just straight up indie bands who got branded with the tag - frank and walters would have been a britpop band if they werent from cork f'instance

everyday sheeple (Michael B), Monday, 28 April 2014 11:15 (three years ago) Permalink

actually its a fantastic article! well worth a read

everyday sheeple (Michael B), Monday, 28 April 2014 11:46 (three years ago) Permalink

Self-congratulatory anti-Britpop screeds are now just as annoying and simplistic as rose-tinted Britpop nostalgia imo but the Taylor Parkes one goes so much deeper, bothers to study individual songs rather than make grand generalisations and admits that he was a participant.

What is wrong with songs? Absolutely nothing. Songs are great. (DL), Monday, 28 April 2014 12:29 (three years ago) Permalink

My problem with the Taylor Parkes article is that it assumes so much from Britpop, and Blur particularly. There's something almost gleefully revisionistic about these anti-Britpop articles in that many of them don't even get the facts straight in the first place. They blame Britpop for everything that was shit about the '90s - even going so far as to say that it was Britpop which helped the rise of Tony Blair and New Labour, which is complete bollocks since BP was pretty much over by the time he came in. From the outside looking in, it's very easy to say to people of my generation - people who never counted themselves as English, who grew up away from London, who were aware of the Beatles and the Kinks but didn't really listen to Britpop bands because they sounded like the Beatles and the Kinks, who enjoyed bands like Blur, Pulp, the Boo Radleys for their musical diversity, not their conservatism, who also liked American bands and dance music and hip-hop, who only felt 'a part of something' because we happened to be young and liked to go to indie nights and dance and snog each other in our Doc Martens as opposed to because of something Stuart Maconie said on the Evening Session - It's easy to look at the surface-level media-led shit that sprang up around the arse end of Britpop and turn around 20 years later and go 'HAH, see I told you it was all SHIT', when really I think that's rather inaccurate and missing much of the point and I'd more readily side on Eva Wiseman's little piece than Parkes's in-depth and well-written but ultimately unfair drubbing.

1 pONO 3v3Ry+h1n G!!!1 (dog latin), Monday, 28 April 2014 12:45 (three years ago) Permalink

I thought it was very poorly written. F-word this and F-word that; fine, you can swear as much as the average Gallagher brother. So what? Does that make you better than them? Also, far too discursive and rambling instead of addressing the topic at hand and a competent editor would not have spared their secateurs cutting the piece down. Funny how he has a go at “Girls And Boys” supposedly attacking the working class and as usual gives Pulp the free pass. Not listened to the first song on His N’ Hers recently, then?

Meanwhile, did the death of Diana really “kill” Britpop? If anything spelled out the end it must ARGUABLY have been the advent of the Spice Girls. Look! Colour, fun, humour – everything that Britpop isn’t (any more). No mention of them. Riot Grrl gets one passing, rather disdainful mention. If Elastica did anything he doesn’t mention it. And of all the Britpop loudmouths to alight upon, he decides to have a go at…Louise Wener.

The differential diagnosis would therefore include the possibility that this writer has a problem with women.

Oh, and as far as Blair and Blairism are concerned, the Britpop boom essentially happened under a Conservative government.

Here he is with the classic "Poème Électronique." Good track (Marcello Carlin), Monday, 28 April 2014 13:17 (three years ago) Permalink

You mean the Iraq War wasn't ignited by Blur's version of 'Lets Go Down the Strand', what are you saying here Marcello?

1 pONO 3v3Ry+h1n G!!!1 (dog latin), Monday, 28 April 2014 13:36 (three years ago) Permalink

Not the Spice Girls, really.

My opinion being: The Spiceys could co-exist with the Britpop quite happily. One alternate 'DOBP' theory was Louise Wener, funnily enough, was in the studio doing her third album and getting a preview of Robbie's "Angels" and realising that the Mainstream could actually do this "Britpop anthem" thing better than Oasis now, so time to pack up and prepare for the taxi home. (I believe the Glitter Band had the same feeling when they saw the Sex Pistols live, back in 1976).

My theory of the end was when Blur produced "Tender", a sure-fire number one, only Britney Spears stopped them with "one more time, baby" and it was like the end of "1066 and all that" : "America was clearly top nation, and Britpop came to a full stop"

Cheers, chief.

Mark G, Monday, 28 April 2014 13:42 (three years ago) Permalink

Good theories there. I'm sure Robson and Jerome are thoroughly fed up with having to take all the blame.

Here he is with the classic "Poème Électronique." Good track (Marcello Carlin), Monday, 28 April 2014 13:47 (three years ago) Permalink

even going so far as to say that it was Britpop which helped the rise of Tony Blair and New Labour, which is complete bollocks since BP was pretty much over by the time he came in.

Blairism didn't start the day he won the election you know. In fact his period as leader of the opposition (July 1994 to May 1997) is almost exactly the lifespan of Britpop, and that's when he axed Clause IV, launched New Labour, etc. You can't complain about TP's false assumptions if you're making some of your own.

Marcello is more on-point. It is rambling, and at times unclear what he even means by "Britpop" (which, like "hipster", now appears to mean Things The Writer Doesn't Like) and TP's problem with women has been noted before. I still think it's one of the better anti-Britpop rants I've read recently, if only because it's pegged to analysis of a specific album.

What is wrong with songs? Absolutely nothing. Songs are great. (DL), Monday, 28 April 2014 13:47 (three years ago) Permalink

a bunch of what's being addressed here would probably more reasonably thought of within the sphere of "Cool Britannia" - an overlapping but not absolutely equivalent set of vectors to Britpop

you poll a lot, but you're not saying anything (Noodle Vague), Monday, 28 April 2014 13:49 (three years ago) Permalink

and i think there is a problem when addressing Britpop in treating it as the sum of a bunch of records/artists rather than a media/social construction with a complex relationship to those artists

you poll a lot, but you're not saying anything (Noodle Vague), Monday, 28 April 2014 13:51 (three years ago) Permalink

Warming up to the subject...

My brother-in-law had bought one of those "civilisation" type computer games. He installed it, and began with a small community.

Over whatever time period, he grew them and nurtured them, created huts and expanded into other areas. After some time, he felt he was doing quite well, with a small sailing fleet of wooden boats for fishing and such like. Then, suddenly, a big grey battleship came into the harbour and invaded. At which point, he said "Ah, maybe I wasn't doing quite as well as I thought!"

Mark G, Monday, 28 April 2014 13:53 (three years ago) Permalink

Britpop as one of those sixth tier nations in a game of Civ who keep trying to demand tribute from clearly more powerful teams is a quality analogy

you poll a lot, but you're not saying anything (Noodle Vague), Monday, 28 April 2014 13:55 (three years ago) Permalink

I was listening to the Forgotten ’90s show on Absolute Radio ‘90s last night. The DJ played “On A Rope” by Rocket from the Crypt and exclaimed disbelief that such an “alternative” record could go to #12 in the charts. “That probably won’t happen ever again,” he sighed slowly.

The way I viewed Britpop at the time was as a useful conduit for lots of “outsider” music – of whatever genre or nationality – to get through to the mainstream. Opening the floodgates and so forth. As usual with these things, it happened for a bit and then hubris and complacency set in. I queued up outside Denmark Hill Safeway’s at 8:00 on Thursday morning for Be Here Now just like so many other people, so I’m as much to blame as anybody.

Here he is with the classic "Poème Électronique." Good track (Marcello Carlin), Monday, 28 April 2014 14:02 (three years ago) Permalink

Ah, I drove specially to Richmond HMV for mine. HMV purchasers got a 'special' 1st day of issue certificate........

Mark G, Monday, 28 April 2014 14:16 (three years ago) Permalink

But trying to distil Britpop into a Robbie Williams song is kind of also a glancing-off of the point of it in a way, because that's what people remember about Britpop - legions of rugger buggers singing 'Angels' as they swill back Carling on Christmas Eve 1997, Noel Gallagher shaking hands with new PM Tony Blair at his new digs while Liam flips Vs at the tabloids, Alex James eating cheese and Damon gobbling Prozac - and that's not what it was all about for me - all of these things happened after the fact.
And it didn't have anything to do with the Spice Girls or Diana or any of that - those things existed, but enjoying the music of Blur as a fifteen year old had little to do with it. I didn't suddenly stop listening to the bands I liked and switched over to Robbie and the Spice Girls. Britpop didn't die, it moved on like all genres do. By 1997 I had finished my GCSEs and was listening to OK Computer - arguably a more socially involved and musically adventurous album by the majority of Britpop's standards (although I'd say Blur at their height had their own brand of social commentary, not to mention 'musicality').
'Britpop' on one hand was a cynical media construct that lasted less than 3 years. On the other, it's a continuum representing British alternative-based pop and rock which for better or worse has existed since at least the mid-80s and continues to exist today in some shape or form. I would rather appreciate it for the 'pop' part rather than the 'Brit' part, which is ultimately a projection on behalf of the onlookers and those who could only observe it form the vantage point of the tabloid press well after its mid-90s peak.

1 pONO 3v3Ry+h1n G!!!1 (dog latin), Monday, 28 April 2014 14:20 (three years ago) Permalink

Surely On A Rope being a hit has more to do with Nirvana et al opening the door to the mainstream for US alt rock? The Yanks Go Home triumphalism has created a narrative where it's as if people stopped listening to US music, but of course people listened to both Britpop and indie-rock/grunge/alt, and the press continued to support the latter.
That's not to say that Britpop didn't serve as a gateway to 'outsider' music for a lot of people, especially those getting into music around then. I suppose I have Britpop, and the music press of the time, introducing me to Syd Barrett, Wire etc.

Poor.Old.Tired.Horse. (Stew), Monday, 28 April 2014 14:22 (three years ago) Permalink

Radiohead conspicuously absent from any of these Britpop commemorations but then I don't suppose they were ever really Britpop. Britrock or Brit art rock yes, but Britpop?

Here he is with the classic "Poème Électronique." Good track (Marcello Carlin), Monday, 28 April 2014 14:28 (three years ago) Permalink

Never wore a union jack is why. Not even ironically.

Mark G, Monday, 28 April 2014 14:30 (three years ago) Permalink

xpost to my own xpost - that was several xposts - i'm at work. hey dog

1 pONO 3v3Ry+h1n G!!!1 (dog latin), Monday, 28 April 2014 14:32 (three years ago) Permalink

some ppl just don't like cute boys playing guitars, just like I don't give a shit about interchangeable 17-year-old models being autotuned.

images of war violence and historical smoking (Dr Morbius), Monday, 28 April 2014 14:37 (three years ago) Permalink

'On a Rope' was released on three CDs at 99p each, was never sure how much that contributed to it being a hit - I know I bought all three and so did a few of my friends, there were some pretty good b-sides on there iirc (xposts).

Gavin, Leeds, Monday, 28 April 2014 14:40 (three years ago) Permalink

You're right about the continuum of British alternative-based pop and rock Dog Latin, but there is a lot of resentment from the Maker writers that Britpop, in its most commercial and conservative forms, seemed to kill off the more interesting, progressive elements of that? But then was British post-rock ever going to be a serious commercial proposition? It's certainly true that Britpop has created a conservative and dominant narrative of Great British Guitar Music, and that's led to a narrowing of horizons in certain quarters. On the other hand, the internet has allowed the more interesting stuff to gain a wider audience, even if it rarely crosses over to the mainstream.

Also, RFTC - catchy tune and a great look, so of course they were on the Chart Show etc.

Poor.Old.Tired.Horse. (Stew), Monday, 28 April 2014 14:41 (three years ago) Permalink

The resentment from the Maker writers was that romo never took off.

Here he is with the classic "Poème Électronique." Good track (Marcello Carlin), Monday, 28 April 2014 14:47 (three years ago) Permalink

Blairism didn't start the day he won the election you know. In fact his period as leader of the opposition (July 1994 to May 1997) is almost exactly the lifespan of Britpop, and that's when he axed Clause IV, launched New Labour, etc. You can't complain about TP's false assumptions if you're making some of your own.

Fine, but it's still a major leap to blame the Britpop-era bands for Blairism. For a start the average fifteen year old 'indie'-kid prob was pretty fuzzy about Tony Blair's policies as the opposition leader. Come the election I think we were just happy to finally have the Tories out, but politics came later. Obviously it's not just about what the fans thought, but it's still a stretch to blame all this on Britpop. Blur were, in maybe a rather superficial story-telling way, much more critical of Britain and British life than proselytisers of it.

1 pONO 3v3Ry+h1n G!!!1 (dog latin), Monday, 28 April 2014 14:52 (three years ago) Permalink

Stew - flick through a copy of Select in 1995 and there was a LOT more coverage of the music scene as a whole than just Oasis et al. They had excellent and very prominent dance music coverage near the front of the mag each month for example, a three-page Spice Girls feature, decent coverage of the US. By the time of their demise in the late 90s though they'd become exactly a caricature of a Britpop mag - think Oasis must have appeared on the cover at least three times in 98/99. The humour had been flushed out too.

1 pONO 3v3Ry+h1n G!!!1 (dog latin), Monday, 28 April 2014 15:01 (three years ago) Permalink

Don't think he's 'blaming' Britpop for Blairism, he's just contextualising it. TP does acknowledge that Blur were probably just having a bit of fun with their mockney antics and didn't realise they'd helped create a monster. I think Damon Albarn's recent interviews where he talks about growing up in multi-cultural east London, while a bit too late, at least show an attempt to move away from a white English stereotype.
The flag waving triumphalism of Britpop and Cool Britannia masked a deep anxiety about national identity that comes with loss of Empire, the destruction of society and industry by Thatcher etc. Britpop could have contributed to a much more progressive and pluralistic idea of what England and Britain could be, but it fell back on stereotypes and conservative nostalgia.

Poor.Old.Tired.Horse. (Stew), Monday, 28 April 2014 15:07 (three years ago) Permalink

xposts, I agree with those upthread saying that Britpop in many ways was a conduit for more alternative music to gain relatively mainstream acceptance, as such the musical conservatism people associate with it is a bit off. Oasis were a very conservative-sounding band, but is it fair to say that about all the music being listened to by the average alt/indie kid in 1995?

1 pONO 3v3Ry+h1n G!!!1 (dog latin), Monday, 28 April 2014 15:10 (three years ago) Permalink

Dog Latin - you're quite right. I started reading Select in 1994 and it was full of dance music, American stuff, chart pop etc. A great eye-opener for a 14 year old who'd only recently started listening to new music after exhausting my parents' Beatles and Stones albums. Once Andrew Harrison left as editor it was downhill all the way. It's testament to his editorship that they had the confidence to cover a range of things in a fun way. Once it lost that energy and humour it clung onto the arse end of Britpop of Britpop, hoping that would see them through. But as TP points out about the press more broadly, perhaps the problem was that the writing wasn't engaging enough any more?

Poor.Old.Tired.Horse. (Stew), Monday, 28 April 2014 15:13 (three years ago) Permalink

who enjoyed bands like Blur, Pulp, the Boo Radleys for their musical diversity, not their conservatism, who also liked American bands and dance music and hip-hop, who only felt 'a part of something' because we happened to be young and liked to go to indie nights and dance and snog each other in our Doc Martens as opposed to because of something Stuart Maconie said on the Evening Session

This is bang OTM and its a fact that a lot of these anti-Britpop screeds gloss over. White, middle class men werent ruined by Britpop's conservatism like TP insists. Thats a load of bull. There was plenty of dance, rap and American rock I was open to in 1995 (I was 18)...along with lots of different old stuff (Krautrock, Sabbath, Miles Davis, Scott Walker, Beach Boys).

everyday sheeple (Michael B), Monday, 28 April 2014 15:15 (three years ago) Permalink

I do agree with TP about Damon Albarn's heavy-handed caricatures though. It was always something that turned me off about Blur.

everyday sheeple (Michael B), Monday, 28 April 2014 15:17 (three years ago) Permalink

The flag waving triumphalism of Britpop and Cool Britannia masked a deep anxiety about national identity that comes with loss of Empire, the destruction of society and industry by Thatcher etc. Britpop could have contributed to a much more progressive and pluralistic idea of what England and Britain could be, but it fell back on stereotypes and conservative nostalgia.

This is true - also death of grunge/post-grunge tawdriness coupled with well-intentioned anti-consumerism in the guise of Americophobia in some cases. In a way Britpop could be seen as less about pro-Britishness than a sort-of inter-continental rivalry between the UK and US. But it was indeed the Spice Girls who waved their flags the hardest.

1 pONO 3v3Ry+h1n G!!!1 (dog latin), Monday, 28 April 2014 15:20 (three years ago) Permalink

By the time of their demise in the late 90s though they'd become exactly a caricature of a Britpop mag -

I dunno, I was gutted that Select closed, it was pretty great even then, and they'd started to do free CDs that were actually worth keeping..

Mark G, Monday, 28 April 2014 15:23 (three years ago) Permalink

I remember comparing the compleat Radiohead feature they did in 1999 to the Blur one they did circa '95 and there was no competition in terms of writing-style and incite.

1 pONO 3v3Ry+h1n G!!!1 (dog latin), Monday, 28 April 2014 15:30 (three years ago) Permalink

Britpop certainly changed the music press... as did the coverage of music in the mainstream media, as TP points out. The need to find a new Britpop led the music press to overlook a lot of interesting stuff that didn't fit a simple narrative, hence that self-parodic period when they championed non-existant new scenes like skunk rock and stool rock. For me the lack of good British guitar bands after Britpop led me to Beck, Beasties then hip-hop and funk. Britpop was for many the beginning of a love affair with music that led them down myriad paths. TP's beef seems to be with those who never really moved on and still treat it as the greatest youth movement ever, or at least will it to be the equal of punk, Beatlemania etc. That's fair enough, but then those people always dominate the histories. Not that I'm accepting that, but we can fight it by writing new histories.

Poor.Old.Tired.Horse. (Stew), Monday, 28 April 2014 15:31 (three years ago) Permalink

they championed non-existant new scenes

always the case even before britpop

everyday sheeple (Michael B), Monday, 28 April 2014 15:35 (three years ago) Permalink

This is true of course, but I think it got particularly desperate by the late '90s.

Poor.Old.Tired.Horse. (Stew), Monday, 28 April 2014 15:36 (three years ago) Permalink

But as TP points out about the press more broadly, perhaps the problem was that the writing wasn't engaging enough any more?

I would say this, obviously, but I don't think there was a massive difference in the quality of the features or reviews at Select. To me it felt more down to a loss of energy and conviction during the post-Britpop fallout and, by the end, worthy cover stars. I've seen magazines go through good and bad phases with roughly the same stable of writers. The difference is down to vision, sense of purpose and overall editorial voice. Andrew Harrison had all of those qualities. He also had a music scene that was exploding and a knack for celebrating it (and by it I include dance music, etc, not just Britpop) without fawning.

The weeklies changed more dramatically because they were more argumentative in the late 80s/early 90s so once they became cheerleaders they lost something vital that they never got back.

lol at TP having a beef with "those who never really moved on". Like some other ex-MM writers he's still reenacting office battles from 20 years ago.

What is wrong with songs? Absolutely nothing. Songs are great. (DL), Monday, 28 April 2014 15:38 (three years ago) Permalink

Re: Oasis, I'm currently reading Alex Niven's 33 1/3 book on Definitely Maybe and he makes a strong case that the first album was less sonically conservative than current received wisdom suggests.

What is wrong with songs? Absolutely nothing. Songs are great. (DL), Monday, 28 April 2014 15:42 (three years ago) Permalink

well it does have a shoegazery whirl of sound thing going on. i listened to it there recently and the production really works on it.

everyday sheeple (Michael B), Monday, 28 April 2014 15:44 (three years ago) Permalink

I always thought that about Def MayB, that it represented shoegaze coming out of murk and into melody, but when I first heard that album I knew nothing about the band and had no Gallagher stereotypes in my head. The conservatism came later

Dr X O'Skeleton, Monday, 28 April 2014 15:52 (three years ago) Permalink

love this: 'shoegaze coming out of murk and into melody' - also the Verve I guess?

1 pONO 3v3Ry+h1n G!!!1 (dog latin), Monday, 28 April 2014 15:55 (three years ago) Permalink

There are also strands of glam, psychedelia, baggy, hip hop and the Sex Pistols. It doesn't by any stretch of the imagination just sound like the Beatles. Critics might have lost their minds by the time of Be Here Now but I remember why they were so excited about the debut and it wasn't because they thought it was throwback meat-and-potatoes rock.

What is wrong with songs? Absolutely nothing. Songs are great. (DL), Monday, 28 April 2014 15:56 (three years ago) Permalink

OTM, there wasn't that much 'real guitars made of real wood' thing AFAIR in the earlier Britpop days. Maybe a lot of that came out as some sort of grumpy backlash to drum'n'bass and 'album dance' in the mid-90s mingling with some old 'that's not REAL' moaning from Noel.

1 pONO 3v3Ry+h1n G!!!1 (dog latin), Monday, 28 April 2014 16:03 (three years ago) Permalink

It's sort of forgotten now that Noel was bang into Public Enemy, asked the Prodigy and Chemical Brothers to support Oasis at Knebworth and even made a (horrible) record with Goldie. One of my favourite side-effects of Britpop was Setting Sun becoming the noisiest number one since god knows when.

What is wrong with songs? Absolutely nothing. Songs are great. (DL), Monday, 28 April 2014 16:07 (three years ago) Permalink

Writing about Britpop becomes much easier if you ignore all the freak hits and outliers and genre hybrids and women and class-consciousness and so on, and pretend it was all like Three Lions and the theme music to TFI Friday.

What is wrong with songs? Absolutely nothing. Songs are great. (DL), Monday, 28 April 2014 16:09 (three years ago) Permalink

Boom, yeah that's it. I was going to mention Knebworth actually - the Prodge and Chems were the reason a lot of people I knew went, and prob why I would have gone had I not been on holiday.

1 pONO 3v3Ry+h1n G!!!1 (dog latin), Monday, 28 April 2014 16:35 (three years ago) Permalink

is it true the Robson and Jerome record didn't even exist until people started asking for it in shops? that's what i've heard; the idea supposedly came about as a result of old ladies going into HMV and enquiring about 'that soldier song' which had been on the Soldier Soldier TV show in some karaoke scene or some such. apocryphal bollocks perhaps.

piscesx, Monday, 28 April 2014 16:57 (three years ago) Permalink

and then the shopkeeper said to the old lady 'We've got that record you asked about now' and the old ladies said 'Ooh, did I? I must have done...'

and so 4th

Mark G, Monday, 28 April 2014 17:29 (three years ago) Permalink

I thought the old lady said "oooh you are awful... but I like it"

۩, Monday, 28 April 2014 17:42 (three years ago) Permalink

or was that damon albarn?

۩, Monday, 28 April 2014 17:42 (three years ago) Permalink

dog latin OTM throughout the discussion so far!

Toni Braxton-Hicks (Turrican), Monday, 28 April 2014 18:23 (three years ago) Permalink

"the most disastrous misunderstanding of The Beatles since Charles Manson."

^ my fave description of oasis ever

très hip (Treeship), Monday, 28 April 2014 18:24 (three years ago) Permalink

One episode of Soldier Soldier called for the duo to sing "Unchained Melody".[4] Subsequently ITV was inundated by people looking to buy the song, and the pair were persuaded by Simon Cowell to release it as a single. Cowell enlisted music producers Mike Stock and Matt Aitken, with whom he had worked many times, to produce the single.

fit and working again, Monday, 28 April 2014 18:25 (three years ago) Permalink

https://jeremygilbertwriting.wordpress.com/2014/04/11/white-noise-new-labour-new-lads-britpop-and-blairism/ interesting to read this contemporary article (late '96 / early '97) and see it highlight a lot of the things that some of the current coverage is suggesting only became visible in hindsight.

Merdeyeux, Monday, 28 April 2014 18:34 (three years ago) Permalink

Back in the '90s, years prior to getting internet access (which I didn't until at some point in late 1997) and Napster (which didn't happen for another couple of years after that), I was getting my musical education from a small number of sources. My parents record collection was one, but in terms of discovering music, I was basically limited to a small number of sources: MTV Europe and VH-1 (on "old" analogue Sky), and BBC Radio.

I keep forgetting this myself sometimes, but CD's were ludicrously overpriced back in the '90s... if you were lucky, you could pick up a CD for something like £9.99, or if there was a sale on, take advantage of some kind of "2-for-1" or "3-for-2" offer that happened to be going on. But mostly, new albums and reissues by "classic" bands used to cost something ridiculous like £15.99. Being of the age I was at the time, there was no way on God's green Earth that I'd even think about buying an album with the limited pocket money that I had unless I was quite sure that I was going to like it. I would never buy an album, therefore, unless I'd heard 2 or 3 singles off it, which is where the likes of MTV Europe, VH-1 and BBC Radio helped. Later on, of course, I'd be able to use Napster, download a couple of tracks, and that would help decide whether I'd want to purchase the album or not. Spotify of course has made it even easier (and would have been a dream come true for me if it had existed in the '90s), but of course these are very different times now.

Because of the avenues I was using to discover music at this time, I find it really mind-boggling when I read retrospective pieces of this period, because while a lot of bands that would be (for worse, in my opinion) lumped together under the name of 'Britpop' were getting plenty of airplay; MTV Europe, VH-1 and yes, even BBC Radio weren't just mining, or existing in, some kind of strange 'Blur vs. Oasis' vacuum. Both MTV Europe and VH-1 used to play a lot of chart stuff on one hand (of which 'Britpop', or whatever you want to call it, was included), but the pre-digital MTV Europe also used to play foreign language music, there was still a bit of a grunge hangover and have shows dedicated to stuff which was happening apart from the UK/European charts. It had shows dedicated to hip-hop, rap and non-chart oriented stuff also. VH-1 was still very young in the UK at this time (I think it only launched in 1994 here) and continued to play a lot of "older" music... '60s/'70s/'80s stuff, and Tommy Vance had his own show on there dedicated to classic rock (for example). I was of the right age to soak it all up, and soak it all up I did, and a huge part of my musical education came from those times. When I finally got Napster, and Spotify, I'd made a mental note of everything I wanted to check out further, and went on a phase of "further exploration", should I say.

I'll make no bones about it, I enjoyed the '90s for numerous reasons. Some of the music from that time still stands up, and some of it doesn't. What I will say is this though: getting into Blur and 1994-1996 Oasis gave the young me a catalyst to find music for myself that wasn't part of my parents record collection. It set me off on a voyage of musical discovery, and while I may not listen to early Oasis very much by choice now, they definitely served their purpose. Looking back, it could have been any band that set me off on the path that led me to eventually find myself here, but that's how it turned out. I don't regret a thing, and as a result I'll always look back on that time fondly. It wasn't the only thing going on, but I'll very seldom have much bad to say about Britpop, apart from what it eventually turned into. But, by the time that Be Here Now was released, I was already moving on anyway, as I suspect many people were.

Toni Braxton-Hicks (Turrican), Monday, 28 April 2014 18:56 (three years ago) Permalink

we never heard recorded music until 2003, we used to entertain ourselves by banging tin cans together and singing made-up tunes to the writing on the back of oven chip packets. we was poor but it was real.

you poll a lot, but you're not saying anything (Noodle Vague), Monday, 28 April 2014 19:01 (three years ago) Permalink

By the way, it really gets my goat when, during discussion of 'Britpop', some smartarse always comes out and says "yeah, but you only rate those times because of nostalgia". Well, duh. I'm not exactly trapped in some '90s timewarp, and continue to enjoy new music as well as old, but if I want to put on Blur's Parklife, and it just so happens to remind me of some very pleasant moments in the past, then I'm perfectly entitled to do that. As does everyone who has their "own" music that soundtracked their lives at a particular age. I don't find anything particularly wrong with this. Was music "better" then? No. As everybody on here will no doubt be aware, there is good music and bad music released every year. I'd be the last person to say that Britpop was a "movement"/"scene"/"(whatever)" that outshone everything that has come along since; that would be absolutely ludicrous. Did it mean a lot for me at the time, though? Yes. And do some of those releases continue to be important to me for personal reasons? Yes.

Toni Braxton-Hicks (Turrican), Monday, 28 April 2014 19:04 (three years ago) Permalink

and TP's problem with women has been noted before.

what is this, dl?

۩, Monday, 28 April 2014 19:05 (three years ago) Permalink

on Sundays tho dad would let us listen to the Home Service on the crystal set, we used to gather round and here Tony Blair making a speech about the Third Way and the need for a modern democratic socialism that better represented the aspirations of the Bluetones roadie on the street

you poll a lot, but you're not saying anything (Noodle Vague), Monday, 28 April 2014 19:06 (three years ago) Permalink

I loved the 90s esp early and mid 90s but NOT due to most britpop. But turrican kinda otm but for different reasons

۩, Monday, 28 April 2014 19:07 (three years ago) Permalink

it were a better time really, i remember the first kid in our street to get an Ocean Colour Scene cassingle, lads would be trading him a week's worth of Blackjacks and Fruit Salad just to have a read of the cover

you poll a lot, but you're not saying anything (Noodle Vague), Monday, 28 April 2014 19:08 (three years ago) Permalink

nv was that before you got up before you even went to bed?

۩, Monday, 28 April 2014 19:08 (three years ago) Permalink

looking more like Alec Guinness every year, only now after he got out of the hotbox in River Kwai

images of war violence and historical smoking (Dr Morbius), Monday, 28 April 2014 19:12 (three years ago) Permalink

The Taylor Parkes Parklife review is an interesting piece of fiction set in the Brit-pop era.

everything, Monday, 28 April 2014 19:24 (three years ago) Permalink

xp
That little shit wishes, more like a halfpint o' stale guinness.

xelab, Monday, 28 April 2014 19:26 (three years ago) Permalink

I miss Blackjacks :( I guess these anti-Britpop rants engender feelings of butthurtness in some people, not necessarily due to love of the music but, because it takes a dump on our memories maaaan

everyday sheeple (Michael B), Monday, 28 April 2014 19:28 (three years ago) Permalink

could never figure out which part of britpop was the arse-end tbh

paolo amusing eclectic revivals (wins), Monday, 28 April 2014 19:29 (three years ago) Permalink

"every retreat into nostalgia is an embracement of fascism" - Keith Chadwick

you poll a lot, but you're not saying anything (Noodle Vague), Monday, 28 April 2014 19:31 (three years ago) Permalink

As for the Blair/New Labour angle to the (*sick forms in the back of the throat*) "Britpop story"; I didn't give much of a shit, or even pay attention to politics at that time. I was way too young, and I was more preoccupied with more trivial things (as any person in their mid teens is). Being North-Eastern (a staunchly anti-Conservative area), though, one kinda has it drummed into them from an early age that the Conservative Party are "the enemy", so when Blair was elected there was this sense of "thank fuck for that, the Tories are finally out". The understanding of politics came a little later for me; again, due to the age I was at at the time, and I make no apologies for that.

But in terms of New Labour's "role" in Britpop, when Noel Gallagher took to the stage at the Brits and announced that Tony Blair was "one of the most important people in the room", it didn't mean a great deal to me. Certainly not as much as Jarvis pissing off Jacko, and Noel Gallagher calling Michael Hutchence a "has-been". I'll admit to finding Blair trying to make himself look cool by saying "hey, look, I was in a band once too!" to be a bit crass, but my reaction to Noel Gallagher sipping champagne with Blair at Number 10 at the time was not "oh god, look at the future war criminal hitching a ride to the prevailing bandwagon for his own ends", it was more "shit, I wasn't expecting things to blow up to this level... from playing the Barrowlands, like every other band does in 1994, to 3 years later playing Knebworth and sipping champagne at Number 10..."

I think everyone has a moment where they suddenly start paying more attention to politics, but I wasn't doing that during the "Britpop" times. Just as the likes of Blur/Oasis were the catalyst for me to strike out and discover more music of me own, it was (tragically) 9/11 that made me sit up and take notice of what was going on politically.

The death of Princess Diana meant fuck-all to me.

Toni Braxton-Hicks (Turrican), Monday, 28 April 2014 19:31 (three years ago) Permalink

It was 9/11 that made you pay attention to politics?!

everyday sheeple (Michael B), Monday, 28 April 2014 19:36 (three years ago) Permalink

The Taylor Parkes Parklife review is an interesting piece of fiction set in the Brit-pop era.

― everything, Monday, April 28, 2014 7:24 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

get this distinct impression, and I wasn't even there (really)

imago, Monday, 28 April 2014 19:37 (three years ago) Permalink

xpost:

Yup, I'll readily confess to not giving a shit about politics until I was 17.

Toni Braxton-Hicks (Turrican), Monday, 28 April 2014 19:38 (three years ago) Permalink

I didn't give much of a shit, or even pay attention to politics at that time.

that is one of his points that no one gave a shit and continued to not give a shit and now politics has been removed from pop and that these people are now in charge everywhere.

۩, Monday, 28 April 2014 19:39 (three years ago) Permalink

i remember 9/11 it as if it were yesterday, the pavements still littered with spent fireworks, Tony Blair's rousing speech calling for OMOV to be seriously debated at the spring party conference, Cerys Matthews playing a Waylon Jennings joint when she was filling in for Jo Whiley on Radio 1

you poll a lot, but you're not saying anything (Noodle Vague), Monday, 28 April 2014 19:39 (three years ago) Permalink

frantically combing Usenet for Spyro the Dragon cheats

you poll a lot, but you're not saying anything (Noodle Vague), Monday, 28 April 2014 19:40 (three years ago) Permalink

this bit is otm.

: "back then, this stuff seemed more like a reaction against recent British music, which had been dreadful, rather than Nirvana, who everybody liked)

The Select cover was quite a bit before Oasis etc took off and doubt most people buying britpop had seen that cover. The narrative I recall was that this was "better music with commercial ambition" rather than "neds atomic dustbin/sultans of ping/kingmaker shite".

۩, Monday, 28 April 2014 19:49 (three years ago) Permalink

There was tons of great music being made in the UK prior to this. Was Brit-pop a reaction against that too or just neds/sultans/kingmaker?

everything, Monday, 28 April 2014 19:58 (three years ago) Permalink

perhaps a clue can be found in the early Marion single "Fuck Off Neds/Sultans/Kingmaker"

you poll a lot, but you're not saying anything (Noodle Vague), Monday, 28 April 2014 20:00 (three years ago) Permalink

Or more specifically:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NKGz2l6Erg

everything, Monday, 28 April 2014 20:03 (three years ago) Permalink

Weird that Neds/Sultans/Kingmaker aren't included in that lot.

everything, Monday, 28 April 2014 20:04 (three years ago) Permalink

Plenty of them liked Nirvana, Pavement and so on, and plenty liked dance music too. I agree that the main target was really the Neds/Carter axis, which I haven't seen anyone rushing to defend recently.

xp I don't even think it was predominately a retreat into nostalgia, NV. I remember a sense of excitement that this - and all the other mid-90s music that doesn't fall into a neat box and which, as many people have said itt, liked alongside Britpop - was all happening now. Sure there was a fetishisation of certain 60s elements (mod fashion, World Cup 1966, Michael Caine in Alfie, etc) but that wasn't the main driver.

What's missing from the anti-Britpop pieces I've read is any explanation for why so many people found it an exciting development at the beginning, except "lol people are idiots/racists/Blairites".

What is wrong with songs? Absolutely nothing. Songs are great. (DL), Monday, 28 April 2014 20:04 (three years ago) Permalink

if i'm being a snarky little monkey i guess it's more about the 20-years-on nostalgia now than the phenomenon at the time, DL, which i agree was more complex than any of the totalizing narratives being written this year can deal with

Britpop had its discontents from the moment Select published that cover, it wasn't like the nationalistic elements weren't questioned at the time, it wasn't like the whole "scene" wasn't primarily a critics' argument rather than a brand that the kids bought into as it happened. but a horrible, dominant regressiveness was born out of the era i think - alongside other pathways, sure. and for people who like a good narrative, i think there are lots of better ones that could be woven out of commercial mildly alt UK music of the mid 90s

you poll a lot, but you're not saying anything (Noodle Vague), Monday, 28 April 2014 20:13 (three years ago) Permalink

in some ways i think the notion of Britpop preserved the worst possible Whiggish reading of the history of pop music in the UK, and gave it orthodox clout, even as it pushed the other narratives into more interesting (and hidden) places. something in me seriously jibes at the 15 year journey from "We Oppose All Rock and Roll" to "Tonight Matthew, I'm a Rock'n'Roll Star"

you poll a lot, but you're not saying anything (Noodle Vague), Monday, 28 April 2014 20:17 (three years ago) Permalink

It was listening to XFM to wake up to in London in the early 90s, and another execrable Carter USM single, that made me decide to give up on indie. I had better things to do with my time. I tuned my car radio to pirate jungle stations because it sounded exciting. It was friends playing me bands like Suede, Blur, Teenage Fanclub that made me take notice of indie stuff again.

Dr X O'Skeleton, Monday, 28 April 2014 20:33 (three years ago) Permalink

xp Oh sorry, I mixed up my nostalgias.

What is wrong with songs? Absolutely nothing. Songs are great. (DL), Monday, 28 April 2014 20:40 (three years ago) Permalink

,, and meanwhile, back in the Jungle...

Mark G, Monday, 28 April 2014 21:00 (three years ago) Permalink

i recall t n the park 95 and everyone calling it the summer of britpop even though none of those bands were on mainstage tricky and the prodigy and foo fighters i think were on there. But back then you still had the raw/kerrang reading people along with the nme/mm reading crowd but they werent that different. The Prodigy really were big amongst both sets and continued to be. Underworld (who were terrific) played just before the shamen in the dance tent (massive attack headlined the same time as prodigy on mainstage. the nme tent where all the britpop bands played was full of 15 year olds (supergrass was a huge massive crush in that tent) most of those bands ended up playing the mainstage in 96. But even in 96 you got people watching other non britpop indie bands (i got a few ppl i met to go see Afghan Whigs and there was tons of pavement tshirts) as well as britpop and everyone was into dance music. esp the old roses/mondays fans. Everyone was waiting on Oasis' "Screamadelica" and when be here now dropped everyone was gutted and tbh a lot of us got off the oasis bus. But somehow they got bigger and OCS ,Travis and the dadrock got huge and the younger fans of these hated dance music. It wasnt "real". This all happened around 1997. Coinciding with Blair & cool Britannia @ #10.
That is how I remember it.

So why did it (brit indie) go really conservative by 1997 and never really recover?

۩, Monday, 28 April 2014 21:02 (three years ago) Permalink

I'd post a zillion counterexamples to that^^^ last statement, but that would mean engaging with this entire tedious debate

imago, Monday, 28 April 2014 21:03 (three years ago) Permalink

im not talking about music noones heard and only you liked

۩, Monday, 28 April 2014 21:05 (three years ago) Permalink

Ultrasound were not a great band

۩, Monday, 28 April 2014 21:05 (three years ago) Permalink

oh no only 999.99999etc squillion bands you didn't discount there

imago, Monday, 28 April 2014 21:07 (three years ago) Permalink

I'd rather hear Grey Cell Green and Sheriff Fatman than any song by Blur or Oasis.

brotherlovesdub, Monday, 28 April 2014 21:19 (three years ago) Permalink

Well please inform me of a squillion uk indie bands post 1997 who were amazing?
50 will do though, i know you love lists.
I will agree that say six by seven were good, not great, but good. Im sure there will be a few others we agree on but they didnt have the impact of their peers like coldplay or the libertines did. Or landfill indie. And landfill indie was basically britpop part 2

pfunkboy (Algerian Goalkeeper), Monday, 28 April 2014 21:21 (three years ago) Permalink

Brian thats still setting the bar low

pfunkboy (Algerian Goalkeeper), Monday, 28 April 2014 21:21 (three years ago) Permalink

In answer to the thread q, I think it is time. for a Pee-valuation

mattresslessness, Monday, 28 April 2014 21:23 (three years ago) Permalink

And landfill indie was basically britpop part 2

― pfunkboy (Algerian Goalkeeper), Monday, April 28, 2014 9:21 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Nah, landfill indie was much, much more horrific than Britpop in my opinion. The worst landfill indie bands seemed like they were going for an extremely diluted version of the very tail end of Britpop or post-Britpop.

Toni Braxton-Hicks (Turrican), Monday, 28 April 2014 21:30 (three years ago) Permalink

In summary then, Britpop was shit music which was a reaction against shit music and left shit music in it's wake.

everything, Monday, 28 April 2014 21:31 (three years ago) Permalink

xpost:

I mean, jesus christ, imagine Scouting For Girls appearing in 1996. I'm confident that they would have been laughed at and mocked even then.

Toni Braxton-Hicks (Turrican), Monday, 28 April 2014 21:33 (three years ago) Permalink

Oh im not arguing that it wasnt worse. Of course it was! There was still a couple of good britpop bands at least.
Scouting for girls did appear - Catch 'Bingo'

pfunkboy (Algerian Goalkeeper), Monday, 28 April 2014 21:43 (three years ago) Permalink

So why did it (brit indie) go really conservative by 1997 and never really recover?

― ۩, Monday, April 28, 2014 9:02 PM (31 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

There's no short answer to this. Obviously, after the massive success of (What's The Story) Morning Glory?, record companies were selling massive amounts of albums (at a time when albums were ludcriously expensive to buy, too), and I guess they wanted that to continue at any cost, by signing bands that they felt they could push onto the same audience, regardless of whether they were any good or not.

The established bands either moved on and did something different, produced sub-par follow-up albums or took a while to make a follow-up record, which meant that in their absence, a lot of newer bands cropped up to tide things over or try to "keep it going".

The dad-rock bands, like Cast and Ocean Colour Scene, were dead on their arse by the beginning of 1998 if I recall.

Toni Braxton-Hicks (Turrican), Monday, 28 April 2014 21:43 (three years ago) Permalink

Not up here. They were fecking massive. Ocs still pulled great crowds here long after til they split. They were far bigger than say blur

pfunkboy (Algerian Goalkeeper), Monday, 28 April 2014 21:47 (three years ago) Permalink

Pretty much every ocs fan i ever argued with used the "how can you not like them steve cradock is an amazing guitarist'. They crossed over to the mainstream stadium rock crowd up here despite never playing one (except as support to oasis)

pfunkboy (Algerian Goalkeeper), Monday, 28 April 2014 21:50 (three years ago) Permalink

I checked out of the Britpop party the day after Diana's funeral, although that actually had to do with the fact that my first son was born that day

Dr X O'Skeleton, Monday, 28 April 2014 21:51 (three years ago) Permalink

Cast were as popular until they changed their sound on the third album and it flopped. Ppl actually though john power was the second coming of john lennon lol

pfunkboy (Algerian Goalkeeper), Monday, 28 April 2014 21:52 (three years ago) Permalink

Alan McGee retired and it all went to hell.

brotherlovesdub, Monday, 28 April 2014 21:53 (three years ago) Permalink

xxxpost:

You're kidding me? Jesus christ! It was a completely different story here... I never really heard anyone claiming to be a fan of Cast after their second album. Incredibly, I still come across Ocean Colour Scene (who haven't split up, btw!) fans from time to time, but not very many of them. But I'd say, on the whole, from their 4th album One From The Modern(?) onwards, they were definitely playing to the hardcore fans and nobody else.

Toni Braxton-Hicks (Turrican), Monday, 28 April 2014 21:55 (three years ago) Permalink

was brimful of asha big in the US? I was at a Britpop night (I know, flag post is there >>>) in the US and no-one seemed to recognise it. In the UK it was everywhere.

kinder, Monday, 28 April 2014 21:57 (three years ago) Permalink

It was a staple at my indie dance club 2000-2004.

guess that bundt gettin eaten (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 28 April 2014 21:57 (three years ago) Permalink

Cast were as popular until they changed their sound on the third album and it flopped. Ppl actually though john power was the second coming of john lennon lol

― pfunkboy (Algerian Goalkeeper), Monday, April 28, 2014 9:52 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Oh, come on! Nobody thought John Power was the second coming of Lennon! Hehehehehe! A lot of goodwill was applied to Power though because of The La's, though. I remember their second album, Mother Nature Calls getting savaged in the press at the time. And rightly so, it was a turd.

Toni Braxton-Hicks (Turrican), Monday, 28 April 2014 21:57 (three years ago) Permalink

album was SPIN's #1 of the year.

xxpost

guess that bundt gettin eaten (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 28 April 2014 21:58 (three years ago) Permalink

I'd personally put 'Brimful of Asha' down as a post-Britpop thing.

Toni Braxton-Hicks (Turrican), Monday, 28 April 2014 22:00 (three years ago) Permalink

Turrican i knew ppl who did.
Btw ocs hardcore fans were massive. They still sold out gigs here whenever they played last.

pfunkboy (Algerian Goalkeeper), Monday, 28 April 2014 22:01 (three years ago) Permalink

But i am sure it was unique to scotland

pfunkboy (Algerian Goalkeeper), Monday, 28 April 2014 22:02 (three years ago) Permalink

When cast first appeared they were good live. Very loud. They supported oasis and played titp95. Then that terrible album came out all polished and you realised the lyrics were awful. It sold shitloads tho as did the second. They were the biggest tshirt band at titp95 by miles

pfunkboy (Algerian Goalkeeper), Monday, 28 April 2014 22:04 (three years ago) Permalink

I know ocs and cast outsold the great escape up here by a long way

pfunkboy (Algerian Goalkeeper), Monday, 28 April 2014 22:04 (three years ago) Permalink

to me Britpop is Blur (Parklife and Great Escape era only), Oasis, anyone else doing oi-oi type larks (Supergrass) and that's p much it, so it's quite narrow and in no way defines 90% of the """indie/alternative""" stuff I was listening to.

Listening to all the Nows of the 90s surprised my nostalgia by confirming that 'good' 'britpop' was very, very short-lived - a couple of years max - and that chart music in Britain hit an absolute nadir in 1999 (Texas, Robbie Williams, Stereophonics, Semisonic)

kinder, Monday, 28 April 2014 22:05 (three years ago) Permalink

Suede were strictly for the indie kids. Even manics and the verve outsold them tho manics still had the rawk crowd then

pfunkboy (Algerian Goalkeeper), Monday, 28 April 2014 22:06 (three years ago) Permalink

Ugh texas. We thought we got rid of them by 1991 how wrong we were. Fuck you chris evans

pfunkboy (Algerian Goalkeeper), Monday, 28 April 2014 22:07 (three years ago) Permalink

Can we blame chris evans and tfi friday and his virgin breakfast show for it going so shit post 96?
I know he had some good bands on but he broke the really bad dadrock bands

pfunkboy (Algerian Goalkeeper), Monday, 28 April 2014 22:09 (three years ago) Permalink

The other thing about 1994 onwards was that it wasnt just indie or alternative was struggled here but kerrang launched nu metal in 1994 too and those bands got bigger and bigger and all the uk rawk bands copied them. So late 90s did seem bad all-round until napster and i was able to hear what i missed ( a lot of post rock and american stuff here the uk mags ignored) the stuff i did like was new stuff by old faves like spiritualized,mercury rev,flaming lips. Stoner rock was the new stuff i listened to back then otherwise it was old stuff i was discovering .

pfunkboy (Algerian Goalkeeper), Monday, 28 April 2014 22:19 (three years ago) Permalink

I still kept buying the music press for some reason.

pfunkboy (Algerian Goalkeeper), Monday, 28 April 2014 22:20 (three years ago) Permalink

I knew things had gotten beyond stupid when Gay Dad started getting hyped.

Toni Braxton-Hicks (Turrican), Monday, 28 April 2014 22:29 (three years ago) Permalink

This still raises a chuckle, actually...

Toni Braxton-Hicks (Turrican), Monday, 28 April 2014 22:31 (three years ago) Permalink

The funny thing is that post grunge did nothing here except for the inexplicable success of Nickelback.

pfunkboy (Algerian Goalkeeper), Monday, 28 April 2014 22:32 (three years ago) Permalink

No jam bands either. Nobody knows who dmb were

pfunkboy (Algerian Goalkeeper), Monday, 28 April 2014 22:33 (three years ago) Permalink

Ultrasound were not a great band

― ۩

Lies.

Kitchen Person, Monday, 28 April 2014 22:33 (three years ago) Permalink

Not sure who was better off mind you

pfunkboy (Algerian Goalkeeper), Monday, 28 April 2014 22:33 (three years ago) Permalink

The funny thing is that post grunge did nothing here except for the inexplicable success of Nickelback.

― pfunkboy (Algerian Goalkeeper), Monday, April 28, 2014 10:32 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I seem to remember Bush having a hit here with 'Swallowed', which is about the most that Bush ever did here.

Toni Braxton-Hicks (Turrican), Monday, 28 April 2014 22:39 (three years ago) Permalink

No jam bands either. Nobody knows who dmb were

― pfunkboy (Algerian Goalkeeper), Monday, April 28, 2014 10:33 PM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Yup, thankfully we were completely spared Phish and DMB!

Toni Braxton-Hicks (Turrican), Monday, 28 April 2014 22:39 (three years ago) Permalink

Nit sure bush giot a hit. Maybe a vid played on the chart show but that was it. Gavin rossdale didnt get famous til he married gwen stefani. It still didnt get him a hit. Hes just a celeb. A trophy husband!

pfunkboy (Algerian Goalkeeper), Monday, 28 April 2014 22:41 (three years ago) Permalink

Swallowed was a pretty big hit in the UK. Well it went top ten and they did it on Top of the Pops.

Kitchen Person, Monday, 28 April 2014 22:44 (three years ago) Permalink

I wrote this on the Worst Music Writing thread:

I love Taylor Parkes and agree that his article does not belong here, but at the same time his prose style remains so redolent of Melody Maker circa 1995 that it produces a weird sense of discombobulation. Every sentence makes me more nostalgic for Britpop (maybe even the experience of hating Britpop at the time) than most of the other shit I've read about it in these terrible weeks.

― Eyeball Kicks, Monday, April 28, 2014 9:52 PM

Some people above talk about Britpop being an early gateway to other kinds of music, and I relate to that. But I also remember the oppositional stance of certain music journalists - among them Taylor Parkes, Simon Price and Neil Kulkarni - being a greater influence on me at the time. Reading the music press encouraged this amazing dichotomy of fully felt youth: lapping it up while despising it.

Eyeball Kicks, Monday, 28 April 2014 22:47 (three years ago) Permalink

really like the "we blew it" sentiment of the parkes article.

i do feel like other elements of 'britpop' have been airbrushed out in retrospect, but maybe that was the point all the time.

how was the relationship of pulp to britpop perceived at the time, and maybe more importantly, what did people make of the auteurs?

wat is teh waht (s.clover), Monday, 28 April 2014 22:50 (three years ago) Permalink

parkes essay makes me think of the mekons' journey to the end of the night. was it an album about that process?

i mean...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPQG_6EoyPI

wat is teh waht (s.clover), Monday, 28 April 2014 22:51 (three years ago) Permalink

Taylor Parkes and even Simon Price (in the early days at least) were quite vocal about liking Oasis

everyday sheeple (Michael B), Monday, 28 April 2014 22:53 (three years ago) Permalink

the auteurs were kind of outside Britpop a little bit except for that "Yanks Go Home" Select article, they werent really a Britpop band, they didnt feel like one either - they were constantly being compared to the go-betweens (i dont see it). the first album anyway

everyday sheeple (Michael B), Monday, 28 April 2014 22:55 (three years ago) Permalink

"the most disastrous misunderstanding of The Beatles since Charles Manson."

^ my fave description of oasis ever

Agreed

Turtleneck Work Solutions (Nasty, Brutish & Short), Monday, 28 April 2014 22:55 (three years ago) Permalink

Melody Maker front cover from the week after Parklife came out

piscesx, Monday, 28 April 2014 23:00 (three years ago) Permalink

Cranberries - Britpop's Biggest Export

everyday sheeple (Michael B), Monday, 28 April 2014 23:05 (three years ago) Permalink

CRANBERRIES BRITPOP'S BIGGEST EXPORT

۩, Monday, 28 April 2014 23:06 (three years ago) Permalink

Ultrasound were not a great band

To be honest, I had very little interest in Britpop at the time (with the exception of Blur), but it was all around me because I'd accidentally found myself living in the middle of it and knew loads of people involved with it in one way or another. I saw an early incarnation of Ultrasound a few times around 95/96 and they *were* very good live, but it was an eternity before their album came out and by then they'd somewhat lost focus and stretched every song out to 30 minutes at half-speed.

Turtleneck Work Solutions (Nasty, Brutish & Short), Monday, 28 April 2014 23:06 (three years ago) Permalink

Cranberries werent Britpop. They were LimRock jeez

everyday sheeple (Michael B), Monday, 28 April 2014 23:07 (three years ago) Permalink

they lingered too long

۩, Monday, 28 April 2014 23:09 (three years ago) Permalink

Wonderwall I guess was the biggest actual US hit by a britpop band right? Blur werent making britpop by song 2

۩, Monday, 28 April 2014 23:12 (three years ago) Permalink

or maybe ONLY hit

۩, Monday, 28 April 2014 23:13 (three years ago) Permalink

I can see, if you wanted to make early connections, some shared sensibilities between Modern Life is Rubbish and the Auteurs' New Wave, of world weary youth playing with 'English' styles

Dr X O'Skeleton, Monday, 28 April 2014 23:19 (three years ago) Permalink

Auteurs didnt sell many records did they so britpop didnt seem to care about them by the time it went mainstream. They did get 1 songon all the 90s indie comps though. Im guessing lenny valentino was popular in student discos

۩, Monday, 28 April 2014 23:29 (three years ago) Permalink

I seem to remember Luke Haines being crabby about everything to do with Britpop in interviews!

Toni Braxton-Hicks (Turrican), Monday, 28 April 2014 23:30 (three years ago) Permalink

been meaning to read this. ive heard good things about it.

http://www.amazon.com/Bad-Vibes-Britpop-Part-Downfall/dp/0099522268

everyday sheeple (Michael B), Monday, 28 April 2014 23:33 (three years ago) Permalink

Im guessing lenny valentino was popular in student discos

too brief

guess that bundt gettin eaten (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 28 April 2014 23:35 (three years ago) Permalink

and no Felix da Housecat remix

guess that bundt gettin eaten (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 28 April 2014 23:35 (three years ago) Permalink

Song break:

Was this Britpop?

1 pONO 3v3Ry+h1n G!!!1 (dog latin), Monday, 28 April 2014 23:48 (three years ago) Permalink

To be honest, I had very little interest in Britpop at the time (with the exception of Blur), but it was all around me because I'd accidentally found myself living in the middle of it and knew loads of people involved with it in one way or another. I saw an early incarnation of Ultrasound a few times around 95/96 and they *were* very good live, but it was an eternity before their album came out and by then they'd somewhat lost focus and stretched every song out to 30 minutes at half-speed.

― Turtleneck Work Solutions (Nasty, Brutish & Short)

I was a huge fan at the time and when I met Tiny at Leeds Festival 99 I could barely talk I was so starstruck. To me honest their album was never as good as I wanted it to be. They recorded some of their best songs so many times they ended up losing what made them special. Also they pissed away their best song and only potential hit (Kurt Russel) as a B-side to a limited edition single. I could make a great album out of their songs using the album and all the singles they put out. They were great live too.

Kitchen Person, Monday, 28 April 2014 23:52 (three years ago) Permalink

no cuz they were influenced by sonic youth and pavement. i saw them at t in the park and they were very good.

A band who i saw at titp who i had never cared for but were really good and had been co-opted as britpop were the wannadies. They played just before teenage fanclub (who were magnificent)
xp

۩, Monday, 28 April 2014 23:54 (three years ago) Permalink

Auteurs had a pretty great career really. All four albums sound quite different and are all really solid. After Murder Park in particular is a brilliant album. I've been looking back at the NME and Melody Maker end of year lists a lot recently. I was surprised to see how well New Wave was received. Think the press had moved on by the second album though.

Kitchen Person, Monday, 28 April 2014 23:55 (three years ago) Permalink

BRITPOP
Frieze, December 1995

By Simon Reynolds

http://reynoldsretro.blogspot.co.uk/2014/04/britpop-dissected-2-1995-and-battle-of.html

piscesx, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 00:00 (two years ago) Permalink

I was 25% of the audience at a ocs gig in 2004

james lipton and his francs (darraghmac), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 00:04 (two years ago) Permalink

your dog escaped?

۩, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 00:07 (two years ago) Permalink

lol

1. Catatonia – International Velvet

popchips: the next snapple? (seandalai), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 00:12 (two years ago) Permalink

yes thats when MM jumped the shark

۩, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 00:13 (two years ago) Permalink

Thanks to rave, the most vital sectors of '90's UK subculture are all about mixing it up: socially, racially, and musically (DJ cut'n'mix, remixology's deconstructive assault on the song). Returning to the 3 minute pop tune that the milkman can whistle, reinvoking a parochial England
with no black people, Britpop has turned its back defiantly to the future. Here's hoping the future will respond in kind, and remember Britpop only as an aberrant, anachronistic fad--like trad jazz, the early '60s student craze that resurrected the Dixieland sound of 30 years earlier. Perhaps
Oasis will one day seem as inexplicable as Humphrey Lyttleton!

۩, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 00:13 (two years ago) Permalink

How International Velvet managed to make #1 album of the year in MM in 1998, I'll never know. Sure, it delivered their two best known hit singles, but as an album it's quite weak. The follow-up, Equally Cursed & Blessed, is no better. It's a shame, because I still like their first album (Way Beyond Blue).

Toni Braxton-Hicks (Turrican), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 00:20 (two years ago) Permalink

hated that band so much. road rage gave me rage all right and as for mulder and s arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

۩, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 00:22 (two years ago) Permalink

not to mention that song with space

۩, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 00:22 (two years ago) Permalink

'The Ballad Of Tom Jones'? Yeah, I hated that. But I thought Space were fucking terrible in general, anyway.

Caaaaalling all avenging angels, angels, kickass angels... arrrrgh!!!

Toni Braxton-Hicks (Turrican), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 00:23 (two years ago) Permalink

this is truly the dark night of your souls huh

imago, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 00:24 (two years ago) Permalink

Looking at those lists it seems like Melody Maker were just a bit cooler for the first half of the 90s. They had Laughing Stock in their 91 list which somehow NME completely missed out. Same with Dubnobasswithmyheadman too. They had Flaming Lips and Mercury Rev albums in before Deserters Songs/Soft Bulletin. Dummy was their album of the year over NME going with Definitely Maybe. Having the first Tindersticks album as their album of the year was a really awesome move too. Indeed it didn't last when it got to having Catatonia at number one and Head Music the following year. I'm a huge Suede fan but even I knew that was nonsense at the time.

Kitchen Person, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 00:26 (two years ago) Permalink

xpost:

and now it's the dark night of yours

Toni Braxton-Hicks (Turrican), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 00:26 (two years ago) Permalink

Luke Haines's first book is a great read: funny, fast-paced, somewhat informative of the goings ons of that era. His follow-up is pretty terrible, though. I couldn't stand it. Maybe it's because he kind of stopped being interesting post-auteurs and can't really fathom why. I don't know what happened.

afriendlypioneer, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 00:31 (two years ago) Permalink

xpost Actually it might be the 97 list where things changed. NME had Spiritualized number one and Melody Maker went with The Verve. Also they found room for Be Here Now in their top ten. Hurricane #1 and Republica lower down on the list too. Having said that I forgive them everything for having Billy Mackenzie in there and Kenickie in the top ten (where they should be)

Kitchen Person, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 00:31 (two years ago) Permalink

He's so intolerant of the music scene, and all he has to offer is warmed-over glam tunes that reveal he likes reading people's biographies .

afriendlypioneer, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 00:32 (two years ago) Permalink

Interesting Space fact. They just released an album last month. The album title, artwork and song titles are quite something.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_of_the_Mutant_50ft_Kebab

Kitchen Person, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 00:33 (two years ago) Permalink

Space are so bad. I know someone who ranks them highly, and I don't get it. I heard a new song off the last album and it sounded like female of the species without the budget.

afriendlypioneer, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 00:34 (two years ago) Permalink

If we came up with a WORST Britpop Songs what would go on it?
One song per band so choose wisely

in no order

1) Oasis - Roll With It
2) Blur Country House
3) Ocean Colour Scene - Day We Caught The Train
4) Dodgy - Good Enough
5) Kula Shaker - Hey Dude
6) Cast - Live The Dream
7) Powder - Afrodisiac
8) Supernaturals- Smile
9) Catatonia - Mulder & Scully
10) Space Feat Cerys - The Ballad Of Tom Jones
11) The Divine Comedy - Something for the Weekend
12) My Life Story - 12 Reasons Why I Love Her
13) Sleeper - Inbetweener
14) Lightning Seeds - 3 Lions
15) Babybird - You’re Gorgeous.
16) Bluetones - Cut Some Rug

What else can we add to worst ever Britpop Compilation?

۩, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 00:35 (two years ago) Permalink

Poor Divine Comedy.

Kitchen Person, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 00:36 (two years ago) Permalink

There's a thread for that. I think consensus was Reef - Place Your Hands.

afriendlypioneer, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 00:36 (two years ago) Permalink

Northern Uproar - Town

Oh yeah Reef were the worst.

Kitchen Person, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 00:37 (two years ago) Permalink

Kitchen Person - Head Music was one of the biggest letdowns ever for me. Loved those 3 albums and bsides then that travesty. I sold it. Something I rarely did.

۩, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 00:37 (two years ago) Permalink

oh christ yeah reef

۩, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 00:37 (two years ago) Permalink

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ScBuPPou5pE

piscesx, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 00:38 (two years ago) Permalink

I dont know that at all

۩, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 00:39 (two years ago) Permalink

Yeah I don't remember this song at all. I'm listening to the chorus right now. Reminds me of Viva Brother. Add it to the list.

Kitchen Person, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 00:41 (two years ago) Permalink

Its very proto-landfill so even if its not well known its bad enough to get in

۩, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 00:43 (two years ago) Permalink

Kitchen Person - Head Music was one of the biggest letdowns ever for me. Loved those 3 albums and bsides then that travesty. I sold it. Something I rarely did.

― ۩

I've been back and forth on that album so many times I'm not sure what to think of it anymore. I do still like some of it (Electricity, Everything Will Flow and Indian Strings) but there is some absolute twoddle on there too (Savoir Faire and Head Music) Even though it is quite a flawed record who knew it would get so much worse for them.

Kitchen Person, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 00:44 (two years ago) Permalink

I thought for shed seven - dolphin. but im sure most would say going for gold

۩, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 00:47 (two years ago) Permalink

More songs for the list.

Jocasta - Change Me
Nilon Bombers - Superstar
Ether - Best Friend
Mainstream - Step Right Up
Midget - All Fall Down
18 Wheeler - Crabs
Embrace - All songs
Shed Seven - At the Link it's easy
Posh - Mermaid
Catch - Bingo

Kitchen Person, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 00:48 (two years ago) Permalink

Longpigs - She Said

۩, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 00:50 (two years ago) Permalink

The Verve - Lucky Man

Kitchen Person, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 00:51 (two years ago) Permalink

The Levellers - What A Beautiful Day

۩, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 00:53 (two years ago) Permalink

so far we have
1) Oasis - Roll With It
2) Blur Country House
3) Ocean Colour Scene - Day We Caught The Train
4) Dodgy - Good Enough
5) Kula Shaker - Hey Dude
6) Cast - Live The Dream
7) Powder - Afrodisiac
8) Supernaturals- Smile
9) Catatonia - Mulder & Scully
10) Space Feat Cerys - The Ballad Of Tom Jones
11) The Divine Comedy - Something for the Weekend
12) My Life Story - 12 Reasons Why I Love Her
13) Sleeper - Inbetweener
14) Lightning Seeds - 3 Lions
15) Babybird - You’re Gorgeous.
16) Bluetones - Cut Some Rug
17) Reef - Place Your Hands.
18) Shed Seven - Dolphin.
19) Longpigs - She Said.
20) Catch - Bingo.
21) Embrace - All You Good Good People.
22) The Levellers - What A Beautiful Day
23) Jocasta - Change Me
24) Nilon Bombers - Superstar
25) Ether - Best Friend
26) Mainstream - Step Right Up
27) Midget - All Fall Down
28)18 Wheeler - Crabs
29) Robbie Williams - Angels.

۩, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 00:55 (two years ago) Permalink

*Starts looking through Shine compilation tracklistings*

Toni Braxton-Hicks (Turrican), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 00:56 (two years ago) Permalink

people hate lucky man?

۩, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 00:57 (two years ago) Permalink

I'm now trying to outdo you with a worse song each time but I'm struggling. Think I'm going to have to go study those ITV Chart Show indie charts on Youtube again.

I've always hated Lucky Man. Think they got worse with each album and that's the one that always bugged me.

Kitchen Person, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 00:57 (two years ago) Permalink

if im gonna add tracks I hate by bands i like i may as well add Manic Street Preachers - The Everlasting.

۩, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 00:58 (two years ago) Permalink

worst song on Head Music?

۩, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 00:58 (two years ago) Permalink

Seahorses - Love is the Law

Kitchen Person, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 00:59 (two years ago) Permalink

Hey, you changed my Shed Seven choice.

Kitchen Person, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 00:59 (two years ago) Permalink

i already had that shed seven song in!

۩, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 01:00 (two years ago) Permalink

Don't forget Thurman's English Tea.

Kitchen Person, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 01:00 (two years ago) Permalink

naw love is the law was their best song. they had a terible one after that i forget the name of

۩, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 01:01 (two years ago) Permalink

which song from head music?

۩, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 01:01 (two years ago) Permalink

1. Menswe@r - Stardust
2. Cast - Guiding Star
3. Smokin' Mojo Filters - Come Together
4. Northern Uproar - Livin' It Up
5. Ruth - I Don't Know
6. My Life Story - Sparkle
7. Dodgy - Good Enough
8. The Supernaturals - I Wasn't Built To Get Up
9. Republica - Drop Dead Gorgeous
10. Reef - Come Back Brighter
11. The Seahorses - You Can Talk To Me
12. Rialto - Monday Morning 5.19
13. Travis - More Than Us

Toni Braxton-Hicks (Turrican), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 01:03 (two years ago) Permalink

which song from head music?

― ۩

Even though they did some weak stuff on there I just can't be the one to name a song.

Kitchen Person, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 01:06 (two years ago) Permalink

The title track.

Kitchen Person, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 01:07 (two years ago) Permalink

so far we have
1) Oasis - Roll With It
2) Blur Country House
3) Ocean Colour Scene - Day We Caught The Train
4) Dodgy - Good Enough
5) Kula Shaker - Hey Dude
6) Cast - Live The Dream
7) Powder - Afrodisiac
8) Supernaturals- Smile
9) Catatonia - Mulder & Scully
10) Space Feat Cerys - The Ballad Of Tom Jones
11) The Divine Comedy - Something for the Weekend
12) My Life Story - 12 Reasons Why I Love Her
13) Sleeper - Inbetweener
14) Lightning Seeds - 3 Lions
15) Babybird - You’re Gorgeous.
16) Bluetones - Cut Some Rug
17) Reef - Place Your Hands.
18) Shed Seven - Dolphin.
19) Longpigs - She Said.
20) Catch - Bingo.
21) Embrace - All You Good Good People.
22) The Levellers - What A Beautiful Day
23) Jocasta - Change Me
24) Nilon Bombers - Superstar
25) Ether - Best Friend
26) Mainstream - Step Right Up
27) Midget - All Fall Down
28)18 Wheeler - Crabs
29) Robbie Williams - Angels.
30) The Verve - Lucky Man
31) Manic Street Preachers - The Everlasting
32) Suede - Head Music
33) Thurman - English Tea
34) Northern Uproar - From A Window
35) Menswe@r - Stardust
36)Smokin' Mojo Filters - Come Together
37) Ruth - I Don't Know
38) The Seahorses - Ypu Can Talk To Me
39) Republica - Drop \\dead Gorgeous
40) Rialto - Monday Morning 5.19
41) Travis - More Than Us

roxymuzak via FB nominated Kenickie - Punka

turrican didnt include anything by bands with a song already in it

۩, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 01:07 (two years ago) Permalink

I like punka and have the pic disk but it has to go in as nominated (plus the reactions gonna be lols)

۩, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 01:09 (two years ago) Permalink

Stereophonics - More Life in a Tramp's Vest
Hurricane #1 - Only the Strongest Will Survive

No way should Punka be on there. Brilliant song from a brilliant band (Same with Something For the Weekend.)

Kitchen Person, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 01:09 (two years ago) Permalink

you guys have got me looking up Electrafixion singles at 2am. i hate u

1 pONO 3v3Ry+h1n G!!!1 (dog latin), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 01:09 (two years ago) Permalink

I already nominated Town by Northern Uproar. It has to be that one for "I'm going down, so down town where the streets are full of clowns"

Kitchen Person, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 01:10 (two years ago) Permalink

Edwyn Collins - The Magic Piper (Of Love)

Toni Braxton-Hicks (Turrican), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 01:11 (two years ago) Permalink

The Charlatans - How High
Puressence - This Feeling

Toni Braxton-Hicks (Turrican), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 01:13 (two years ago) Permalink

good call with turrican #1

۩, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 01:13 (two years ago) Permalink

mr writer is worst stereophonics but i guess we can only include early stuff

can we include britrock like feeder - buck rogers?

۩, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 01:16 (two years ago) Permalink

If you're including Britrock, then:

Terrorvision - Oblivion

Toni Braxton-Hicks (Turrican), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 01:17 (two years ago) Permalink

Relieved I've only heard about half of that lot. Or at least that I've blocked out any memory of hearing about half of them.

popchips: the next snapple? (seandalai), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 01:18 (two years ago) Permalink

Lodger - I'm Leaving.

Toni Braxton-Hicks (Turrican), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 01:19 (two years ago) Permalink

no it has to be terrorvision- tequila. an actual hit too

۩, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 01:20 (two years ago) Permalink

looks like seandalai is requesting a spotify playlist!

۩, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 01:21 (two years ago) Permalink

1) Oasis - Roll With It
2) Blur Country House
3) Ocean Colour Scene - Day We Caught The Train
4) Dodgy - Good Enough
5) Kula Shaker - Hey Dude
6) Cast - Live The Dream
7) Powder - Afrodisiac
8) Supernaturals- Smile
9) Catatonia - Mulder & Scully
10) Space Feat Cerys - The Ballad Of Tom Jones
11) The Divine Comedy - Something for the Weekend
12) My Life Story - 12 Reasons Why I Love Her
13) Sleeper - Inbetweener
14) Lightning Seeds - 3 Lions
15) Babybird - You’re Gorgeous.
16) Bluetones - Cut Some Rug
17) Reef - Place Your Hands.
18) Shed Seven - Dolphin.
19) Longpigs - She Said.
20) Catch - Bingo.
21) Embrace - All You Good Good People.
22) The Levellers - What A Beautiful Day
23) Jocasta - Change Me
24) Nilon Bombers - Superstar
25) Ether - Best Friend
26) Mainstream - Step Right Up
27) Midget - All Fall Down
28)18 Wheeler - Crabs
29) Robbie Williams - Angels.
30) The Verve - Lucky Man
31) Manic Street Preachers - The Everlasting
32) Suede - Head Music
33) Thurman - English Tea
34) Northern Uproar - Town
35) Menswe@r - Stardust
36)Smokin' Mojo Filters - Come Together
37) Ruth - I Don't Know
38) The Seahorses - Ypu Can Talk To Me
39) Republica - Drop \\dead Gorgeous
40) Rialto - Monday Morning 5.19
41) Travis - More Than Us
42) Stereophonics - More Life in a Tramp's Vest
43) Hurricane #1 - Only the Strongest Will Survive
44) The Charlatans - How High
45) Puressence - This Feeling
46) Feeder - Buck Rogers
47) Terrorvision - Tequila.

47 of the shittest songs of the era. One song per band max. Anything else to be added?

۩, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 01:22 (two years ago) Permalink

oh shit how can i forget wake up boo

۩, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 01:23 (two years ago) Permalink

How High is a great song as is Wake Up Boo, even if it was the reason why all my friends made fun of me naming them as one of my favourite bands.

Kitchen Person, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 01:28 (two years ago) Permalink

interesting there are no Elastica songs in the list so far. hard to think of a standout obviously-crap song from their big hits era.

piscesx, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 01:28 (two years ago) Permalink

I think we should stick to 90s songs. High would be a good 90s Feeder choice.

Kitchen Person, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 01:30 (two years ago) Permalink

making a playlist
http://open.spotify.com/user/pfunkboy/playlist/0y0gMIOGyKaqj70K3eEprx

hey you put lucky man on there KP so wake up boo is on (its awful)

۩, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 01:31 (two years ago) Permalink

interesting there are no Elastica songs in the list so far. hard to think of a standout obviously-crap song from their big hits era.

― piscesx

I was just thinking the same about Supergrass. Someone will nominate Alright now I'm sure.

Kitchen Person, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 01:31 (two years ago) Permalink

fat les - vindaloo

۩, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 01:36 (two years ago) Permalink

i changed shed seven to going for gold via popular demand on my fb

۩, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 01:38 (two years ago) Permalink

Not sure how fair that is, but you are making the rules.

Good call on Fat Les but the Christmas song was worse.

Kitchen Person, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 01:46 (two years ago) Permalink

okay a bunch of lesser known songs plus bingo by catch arent on spotify but erm enjoy
http://open.spotify.com/user/pfunkboy/playlist/0y0gMIOGyKaqj70K3eEprx

Songs can be added to it as they get nominated

۩, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 01:54 (two years ago) Permalink

Already following.

"Sad little indie boys stil want to fuck lauren laverne" Hey, that has nothing to do with. That first album is a classic and the second one is mostly great too.

Kitchen Person, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 01:57 (two years ago) Permalink

ILM was like that back in the day though, DG loved to annoy said people. I wish he still posted.

۩, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 01:59 (two years ago) Permalink

Was looking forward to hearing Jocasta and Nilon Bombers and Thurman but they're not there. Alas.

popchips: the next snapple? (seandalai), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 02:00 (two years ago) Permalink

yeah,
Ive added the band I really disliked though thats gonna be controversial with everyone else

DUBSTAR.

۩, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 02:01 (two years ago) Permalink

Disgraceful is a great album. Where's Lex when you need him? He'll have something to say about all this ridiculous Kenickie/Dubstar hate.

Kitchen Person, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 02:05 (two years ago) Permalink

oh i liked punka by kenickie and that other single. I owned them. I think ILM is pretty much all love for kenickie.

Ive always been on my own here in dubstar-hate.

btw fun lovin criminals needs a mention. Not britpop but y'know... it counts and we know it

what was their worst track?

۩, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 02:09 (two years ago) Permalink

along with elastica and supergrass no one has nominated a Pulp track.

۩, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 02:12 (two years ago) Permalink

Quite right too.

Kitchen Person, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 02:14 (two years ago) Permalink

or Saint Etienne.

۩, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 02:24 (two years ago) Permalink

I kind of like terrorvision oblivion. It's good dumb fun

afriendlypioneer, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 02:27 (two years ago) Permalink

tequila got the nod. That was truly awful

۩, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 02:29 (two years ago) Permalink

btw fun lovin criminals needs a mention. Not britpop but y'know... it counts and we know it

what was their worst track?

― ۩, Tuesday, April 29, 2014 2:09 AM (34 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

The one that goes "I've got supermodels on my D!"

Toni Braxton-Hicks (Turrican), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 02:46 (two years ago) Permalink

I went with the 10cc cover. That was awful.

۩, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 02:47 (two years ago) Permalink

btw with KP nominating Lucky Mam, I actually saw the verve play that in 1995 at t in the park(the gig they split up at) . they played a few others from urban hymns too (Come On and Rolling People)

۩, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 03:13 (two years ago) Permalink

'The Rolling People' being a fine blend of Funkadelic and Aphrodite's Child.

Toni Braxton-Hicks (Turrican), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 03:15 (two years ago) Permalink

or a blatant piece of stealing.

american ilxors need to make a thread/spotify list of really bad mid to late 90s us music to go with this.

Turrican you got anything to add to http://open.spotify.com/user/pfunkboy/playlist/0y0gMIOGyKaqj70K3eEprx

۩, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 03:20 (two years ago) Permalink

Tequila was well after Britpop though. One of those terrible novelty singles by rock/punk bands - see also Outkast's Pretty Fly For A White Guy - which blighted my first year of uni. Terrorvision did have some Britpop era hits though with Oblivion and that song about the dolphins. But I never associated them with Britpop - they were a Kerrang! band, fun teen metal stuff I enjoyed listening to along with Green Day etc when I were a lad.
Just to add to the Oasis fan constituency debate... I was discussing this with Kerr on FB, but in Scotland a large part of Oasis's fan base was the dance crowd who'd been going to big raves like Resurrection in the early 90s, and their younger siblings, who were more my age group and had just missed out on that. I remember there was a point when Oasis went from being another band the indie kids and 'moshers' would listen to, to a huge band everyone liked - IIRC it was Whatever wot did it. During rehearsals for the school musical (ha!) at the end of 94/start of 95 that song was on all the bloody time.
There was a sense of excitement and optimism, with Some Like Say coming out and everyone willing the next album to be great. Seems ridiculous now, but Wonderwall was hyped up as having this Portishead thing going on. The album was a bit disappointing when it came out, but I still had good will towards them for a while, although I was moving on to Radiohead and other things.
It was exciting to follow the other new releases too. While I couldn't afford many albums, I got loads of 99p singles. And not just Britpop, but other things I'd read about in the NME, heard on Mark & Lard - Nick Cave, Tricky etc. So I concur with Turrican and others who look back on it quite fondly as a time of discovering music in general, tied in with the giddiness of youth - Supergrass's Alright captures that perfectly. It was nice that all the kids at school shared a certain number of cultural references and for a while I didn't feel like such an outcast, even if that was partly wishful thinking on my behalf. I remember this girl I really fancied who had been a huge Take That fan got into Pulp, which made me think I might stand a chance (haha!). I really wasn't jazzed by all the Weller, OCS stuff that it descended into and I moved on.

Poor.Old.Tired.Horse. (Stew), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 09:00 (two years ago) Permalink

Outkast's Pretty Fly For A White Guy

Really?

Mark G, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 09:07 (two years ago) Permalink

Outkast's Pretty Fly For A White Guy

:D

From Tha Crouuuch To Da Palacios (DJ Mencap), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 09:07 (two years ago) Permalink

Kenickie I don't really associate with Britpop in the strictest sense. They were certainly influenced by Britpop, but I'd associate them more with Pulp and the Manics: that regional indie/glam/glitter thing. At school they were one of the bands, along with Garbage, Hole etc, that all the girls who loved the Manics were into. As my male pals at the time were turning into mardy stoners who listened to Korn I wasn't supposed to like that kind of 'girl' music. God, teenage boys are the worst!

Poor.Old.Tired.Horse. (Stew), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 09:11 (two years ago) Permalink

Was it revenge for The Vines' "Ms Jackson" ?

Mark G, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 09:11 (two years ago) Permalink

x-post - oh for an edit function. Offspring obviously. Morning brain fail. My coffee hadn't quite kicked in. The shame.

Poor.Old.Tired.Horse. (Stew), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 09:12 (two years ago) Permalink

Was just thinking it would actually be awesome.

Well, 'quite good' anyway.

Mark G, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 09:13 (two years ago) Permalink

Thought I'd move this over from the worst music writing thread:

The Taylor Parkes piece is too muddled even though I agree that Britpop's aesthetic complacency was related to a larger political complacency that was rampant during the Blair/Clinton years. Don't really understand British class politics so I can't speak to that aspect of Blur's legacy. They sound stressful.

― très hip (Treeship), Tuesday, April 29, 2014 1:09 AM (9 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

From my own experiences political complacency in the UK was at it's peak in the period that lay between Blair's election and the war in Iraq. That's my own outlook as I was a student during that time and I was horrified at how few students were interested in current affairs. The number of people attending student fee protests on my campus were negligible, and this is Essex Uni we're talking about, a hotspot for lefty sit-ins during the seventies. Ibiza Trance and UKG were by far the most popular styles of music for students at that time.

― 1 pONO 3v3Ry+h1n G!!!1 (dog latin), Tuesday, April 29, 2014 9:47 AM (44 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I put it here bc I honestly regretted reading it, and it left feeling quite favourable towards Britpop, so

― sonic thedgehod (albvivertine), Tuesday, April 29, 2014 9:49 AM (42 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Of course a period of prosperity between the Cold War and 9/11 was going to be more apolitical but if you're going to blame Britpop for epitomising vacuous optimism and complacency then you should also blame dance music and nobody seems to be doing that.

― What is wrong with songs? Absolutely nothing. Songs are great. (DL), Tuesday, April 29, 2014 10:04 AM (27 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

That's what I'm saying. I'm not blaming dance music for being apolitical (although I remember being dismayed at the time at how dance music had lost its anti-authoritarian stance and was now being used to tout 2for1 WKDs on a Friday). But why is it suddenly Britpop that's being held to account for eliding politics? What were the Smiths, MBV, Ride, the Stone Roses and umpteen other popular pre-Britpop UK indie bands saying that the likes of Pulp and Blur weren't?

― 1 pONO 3v3Ry+h1n G!!!1 (dog latin), Tuesday, April 29, 2014 10:22 AM (9 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

1 pONO 3v3Ry+h1n G!!!1 (dog latin), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 09:33 (two years ago) Permalink

To complicate things further, 95/96 gave us two great and hugely popular singles about working-class identity, Design for Life and Common People (yes, both were older bands but those songs spoke to the moment). The early 90s were definitely a more political era but, with the exception of the Manics and maybe Huggy Bear, the most outspoken bands (Levellers, Senser, SMASH, etc) are not the ones that are now fondly remembered because the apolitical ones (MBV, Slowdive) made better and more lasting music. God bless the Family Cat and the Senseless Things for making the occasional protest song but they weren't any good.

British culture became less political in the mid 90s faster than British music did and claiming the Criminal Justice Bill protests as proof of dance music's superior radicalism ignores the fact that most ravers by that point weren't arsed about traveller rights or free parties and had happily migrated to legit clubs. I've got no beef with dance music - that was mostly what I listened to at the time - but if you want to talk about the triumph of neoliberalism, Cream and Gatecrasher were more representative than Blur and Oasis.

What is wrong with songs? Absolutely nothing. Songs are great. (DL), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 09:50 (two years ago) Permalink

I seem to remember the roses went on political marches.

۩, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 09:54 (two years ago) Permalink

I remember there was a point when Oasis went from being another band the indie kids and 'moshers' would listen to, to a huge band everyone liked - IIRC it was Whatever wot did it.

first time they got played by commercial radio in Scotland iirc. You never ever heard anything from the 1st album. Wonderwall was what made them the radio staples though. Remember Radio Forth broke the UK embargo for d'ya know what I mean?

۩, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 09:58 (two years ago) Permalink

the Senseless Things for making the occasional protest song but they weren't any good

'homophobic asshole' was fucking immense.

i still listen to that track more than anything else mentioned in this thread.

mark e, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 10:04 (two years ago) Permalink

I seem to remember the roses went on political marches.

Stone Roses v explicitly political through to Fool's Gold at least.

woof, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 10:15 (two years ago) Permalink

Xpost was gonna say, you wanniT?

Mark G, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 10:19 (two years ago) Permalink

Was the Roses' music political?

1 pONO 3v3Ry+h1n G!!!1 (dog latin), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 10:20 (two years ago) Permalink

Um, Elizabeth My Dear?? Bye Bye Badman??

What is wrong with songs? Absolutely nothing. Songs are great. (DL), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 10:24 (two years ago) Permalink

I think yes, on lyrical content - Elizabeth, My Dear = destroy monarchy; Fool's Gold/What the World is Waiting For = anti-capitalist; Bye Bye Badman = salute to the riots of Paris 68; I think there are more examples. but I'm not sure it never felt like a really active or practical politics - slightly mystic art-school situationism.

woof, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 10:31 (two years ago) Permalink

(that was xpost)

woof, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 10:34 (two years ago) Permalink

The amount of praise this Quietus article was getting on t'Internet was greatly depressing me but then I remembered: it's clickbait, that's all websites want at the moment - be provoked, retweet, increase hits and increase ad revenue. Cameron's Britain where the profit margin isn't the reward but the engine.

Here he is with the classic "Poème Électronique." Good track (Marcello Carlin), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 10:38 (two years ago) Permalink

Marcello, you might not agree with the article but it's hardly clickbait and it's not as if anti-Britpop resentment isn't at a peak right now, so it's not that surprising it got a lot of praise.

1 pONO 3v3Ry+h1n G!!!1 (dog latin), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 10:53 (two years ago) Permalink

I'm very suspicious of the "clickbait" complaint. If a provocative opinion is sincere then fine. Why would a writer not want readers? My only beef with it is when it feels lazy or fraudulent - a cynical squib about a big news story, a shallow listicle - but whatever my problems with TP's piece he obviously believes in it enough to write almost 8000 words.

What is wrong with songs? Absolutely nothing. Songs are great. (DL), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 10:57 (two years ago) Permalink

That's one of the problems I had reading it. Why on earth is he so angry abt some pop music that came out twenty years ago?

sonic thedgehod (albvivertine), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 11:06 (two years ago) Permalink

on the article fwiw, I thought it opened strongly – 'who does it serve to flatten or simplify an era?' - but meandered; lots of sympathetic points, & acknowledging its complicity. I think this conversation, for the most part trying to pick a way through yay-britpop/boo-britpop, has been more interesting: it's at least made try to remember more clearly – what was good in the 94 wave? What did I enjoy? Can we distinguish it from the grimmer TFI Britannia era? etc etc

woof, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 11:14 (two years ago) Permalink

20 Reasons Why Britpop Sucked In '96. #4 gave me brain damage.

1 pONO 3v3Ry+h1n G!!!1 (dog latin), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 11:15 (two years ago) Permalink

Everything that is published on a popular subject is clickbait. You want people to read it. That's the whole point of writing it. Also, as I've said before, the stuff that people deride as clickbait is what buys editors and writers the chance to do the stuff they really care about.

For my Britpop piece, this was the process. The editor of G2 wanted a piece about how Britpop ruined everything. A couple of writers were asked, who couldn't do it. I decided to do it myself because a) By this point, it was going to be quicker than getting someone else to do it and the piece was needed urgently b) The proposition was close enough to what I felt about Britpop that I didn't mind doing it.

But it was an opinion piece, and that means expressing yourself in the most forceful terms, rather than umming and ahhing, so yes, you do end up with something that is overstated (and I regret using the term cultural abomination, especially once it ended up in the headline). However, I've had shedloads of people accuse me of trolling, and I wasn't trolling. That word appears to have changed its meaning. It now seems to be: a strongly expressed opinion with which I do not agree.

Unsettled defender (ithappens), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 11:16 (two years ago) Permalink

remember to subscribe to the bad britpop playlist
http://open.spotify.com/user/pfunkboy/playlist/0y0gMIOGyKaqj70K3eEprx

۩, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 11:17 (two years ago) Permalink

That's one of the problems I had reading it. Why on earth is he so angry abt some pop music that came out twenty years ago?

Have any ex-MM/NME sorts stepped up with a 'Britpop: none of it fucking mattered - the music, the music we left out, my writing, all our lives - none of it.' thinkpiece?

woof, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 11:25 (two years ago) Permalink

A lot of my problem with comes from the sheer number of strawmen he throws up, especially in the opening paragraphs. All this assumptive 'Of course Britpop wasn't about Britain was it? It was about Camden, wasn't it, wasn't it?' - which simply isn't true: Manchester was still an indie music stronghold, Pulp were very much from Sheffield, Blur did admittedly go for a cheeky mockney thing despite coming from Colchester, Dodgy and Bluetones were from Hounslow IIRC. It feels more like Parkes is having a pop at the perceived concept of 'Cool Britannia' than the music of Britpop, at least for the first half. After that he picks apart the individual tracks on Parklife, but again I want to know why it's suddenly Blur's job to be kicking against the pricks?

1 pONO 3v3Ry+h1n G!!!1 (dog latin), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 11:29 (two years ago) Permalink

He implies that the Manchester and Sheffield bands mostly relocated to London. I think it's more about location than origin.

Yuri Bashment (ShariVari), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 11:34 (two years ago) Permalink

That's been the case for years though, and it still is.

1 pONO 3v3Ry+h1n G!!!1 (dog latin), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 11:35 (two years ago) Permalink

Also, Parklife names a number of UK locations in its lyrics, none of which are even tangentially related to Camden. You can't base an argument about an entire music genre on the life & times of a bloated post-fame Alex James.

1 pONO 3v3Ry+h1n G!!!1 (dog latin), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 11:46 (two years ago) Permalink

I think if you zero in on the Camden clique that enabled Powder and Menswear to get signed then yes it does seem pretty rotten but that's a tiny sliver of the music of the mid-90s. No doubt it appeared larger if you were a journalist drinking in the same pubs.

What is wrong with songs? Absolutely nothing. Songs are great. (DL), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 12:05 (two years ago) Permalink

Was the Roses' music political?

Since when did anyone care about whether music is political or not? Did I skip a meeting or something?

A frenzied geologist (Tom D.), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 12:09 (two years ago) Permalink

You may have skipped the Taylor Parkes piece in which Britpop is blamed for conspiring to turn Britain into a nation of apolitical neoliberal zombies.

What is wrong with songs? Absolutely nothing. Songs are great. (DL), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 12:12 (two years ago) Permalink

I ask because I recently read an old piece by Rob Young (of Electric Eden etc) about C86 where he lambasted the bands for being devoid of funk (yeah, so?) and "apolitical" .. like does he really care about music being political that much? I doubt it.

A frenzied geologist (Tom D.), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 12:16 (two years ago) Permalink

Shoegaze and American indie were also collaborationist genres

très hip (Treeship), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 12:20 (two years ago) Permalink

I don't know a single person whose record collection is predicated on whether bands are political or not but it's often used, cynically and inconsistently, as a stick with which to beat the ones you don't like.

What is wrong with songs? Absolutely nothing. Songs are great. (DL), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 12:21 (two years ago) Permalink

Precisely

A frenzied geologist (Tom D.), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 12:23 (two years ago) Permalink

It's the weak card in the whole argument - why should it be Britpop's job to be political? Especially in light of a pan-generic, pan-global music scene that was suffering from severe post-agitprop embarrassment. I'm sure DL can school me better on this but it feels like we're only just starting to see a re-emergence of the protest song after twenty years in the wilderness. I don't think Britpop is the cause so much as part of the effect of this.

1 pONO 3v3Ry+h1n G!!!1 (dog latin), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 12:28 (two years ago) Permalink

Can you remember where the R. Young article was, Tom? I'd like to read what he had to say. A brief google failed to turn anything up. No doubt his lambasting had the zeal of the convert.

Tim, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 12:32 (two years ago) Permalink

I don't know a single person whose record collection is predicated on whether bands are political or not but it's often used, cynically and inconsistently, as a stick with which to beat the ones you don't like.

My suggestion is that we abandon this approach and just use real sticks instead.

ricky don't lose that number nine shirt (NickB), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 12:42 (two years ago) Permalink

It's the weak card in the whole argument - why should it be Britpop's job to be political?

Britpop was politicised by politicians. There was a clear attempt to bring it into the Blairite narrative of a bright, new, confident, hip, meritocratic, liberal Britain. Some deeper interrogation of that might have been useful, in retrospect. Britpop was the arguably first era of British indie rock that actually had to make a decision about whether it stood with or against the government. The number of indie stars accused of being aligned with Thatcher could be counted on one hand. Labour surrounded itself with people from the culture industry.

More broadly, some deeper interrogation of the mild nationalism that went along with would have been useful as well. We were constantly told at the time that the revitalised pop-culture industry spoke to what it meant to be British and feel proud to be British. As Parkes points out, that kind of fell apart when you tried to look at specifics.

The difficulty is that it's hard to pin that on any particular band, though. It's not specifically Blur's role, more than anyone else's, to pick apart some of those ideas. It's easy to say that "Britpop" was politically loaded and politically naive but if you take the view that it was a media invention rather than a coherent movement, who can you really call to account?

Yuri Bashment (ShariVari), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 12:53 (two years ago) Permalink

The media?

i reject your shiny expensive consumerist stereo system (Scik Mouthy), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 12:56 (two years ago) Permalink

Oasis played Blair's game and got their photo taken with him at Number 10. Labour for a very short time were seen as the good guys thwarting the Tory forces of evil and I guess this PR move was good for both sides, not too different to Stevie Wonder and friends singing at Democrat rallies in the States etc. But yeah, this was the media's fault, a media thing. You could just as well blame cricket for boosting John Major.

1 pONO 3v3Ry+h1n G!!!1 (dog latin), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 13:11 (two years ago) Permalink

Everything that is published on a popular subject is clickbait. You want people to read it. That's the whole point of writing it. Also, as I've said before, the stuff that people deride as clickbait is what buys editors and writers the chance to do the stuff they really care about.

For my Britpop piece, this was the process. The editor of G2 wanted a piece about how Britpop ruined everything. A couple of writers were asked, who couldn't do it. I decided to do it myself because a) By this point, it was going to be quicker than getting someone else to do it and the piece was needed urgently b) The proposition was close enough to what I felt about Britpop that I didn't mind doing it.

But it was an opinion piece, and that means expressing yourself in the most forceful terms, rather than umming and ahhing, so yes, you do end up with something that is overstated (and I regret using the term cultural abomination, especially once it ended up in the headline). However, I've had shedloads of people accuse me of trolling, and I wasn't trolling. That word appears to have changed its meaning. It now seems to be: a strongly expressed opinion with which I do not agree.

You know how some people start out. They want to do something they really love, something they really believe in. But they can’t because it doesn’t pay enough for them to live on. So they do something else. It might not be what they want but they think to themselves: OK, this is not ideal, this is maybe not what I was put on this earth to do, but if it puts a roof over my head and food on the table I’ll keep at it for now and carry on doing what I actually enjoy doing as a sideline.

But as time goes by and circumstances change you find that you gradually have less and less time and resources to subsidise your own passion, and so reluctantly – SADLY, TRAGICALLY – you knuckle down without necessarily realising that you’ve just turned into a robot, a machine of habit, like everybody else. And whatever OTHER was inside you is now buried deep, too deep ever to be reclaimed or reused.

So it is with writing, and with clickbait. Wanting people to read something is not the same as writing something you know people are going to read, because clickbait is set up to annoy people deliberately in order to maximise revenue – that “pays” sticks out like the sorest of thumbs, and it has to be said; pays for what? Toynbee saying we should be nice to a right-wing “Culture Minister” who thinks that ticket touts provide a vital service to the market (as a for instance)?

“The editor of G2 wanted a piece about how Britpop ruined everything”; there’s your problem right there. Not a nuanced, multifocal piece about Britpop, but an express remit to talk about how it “ruined everything” (?)*

*and of course with 20+-year-old pictures of Good Guy Jarvis, because we all love him, don’t we, isn’t he a national treasure, might not have done anything of note or value for a good decade and a half, but oh he’s so INTELLIGENT and has so many IDEAS and has so much EMPATHY, and it’s depressing to see how many grown adults still just MELT at the mention of his name, of his being, without ever worrying, well, what’s behind all this? What if it’s NOTHING – or the precise ANTITHESIS of what we had once thought? (Actually if you listen to something like “Mis-Shapes” now it sounds like Cameron and Gove fulminating against the shirking, uncultured plebs, as opposed to upper middle class, grammar school educated Jarv being benched off because some drunken plumber wearing a white shirt laughed at him one time? And what about “Common People”? What about it? Yes, these pallid working class types, they dance and drink and screw because there’s NOTHING ELSE TO DO. Dammit, JC, how would YOU know?)

An “opinion piece” does NOT mean “expressing yourself in the most forceful terms” unless you’re setting out to be Dave Spart or something. What you term “umming and ahhing” is trying to come to honest terms with what you are writing about, attempting a calm, balanced viewpoint – gently persuading people to at least CONSIDER changing their minds - and such writing carries an entirely different tone and resonance from OTT Rants 4U stuff full of arch hype, clever-cleverness and punk rock sweaty shouting which actually, in terms of helping people to understand each other and their art, eventually signifies precisely nothing** – and even five years ago, you’d have been hard pressed to find anything like that in the Guardian or anywhere else comparable.

**Why? Because that kind of writing requires patience, long-term thinking and, yes, that most Cameronite of sins, HARD WORK if you’re going to write something that isn’t clickbait, that won’t provide easy emotional release for people who’ve been led, by whatever means of convenience, to lose their curiosity.

Good writing should be – what word would best describe it? “Awe-inspiring” is far from perfect but yes, writing and reportage at their best should inspire awe. “Intimidating” might be another good adjective, in the sense that the writing in the 1976-82 NME was intimidating, because it made you want to BETTER yourself, to prove yourself worthy of reading it. The “trollumnists” (as somebody else on ILx, I can’t remember who, called them) on the Guardian, New Statesman etc. are intimidating in a smug sense, in terms of getting one up on somebody else, with no greater ambition than stamping their feet, shouting “ith not fair,” aiming their spray can at the wall and running away.

The consequence of clickbait “culture,” however, is that you end up servicing people who really only want their basic story about the world – the world as they, and ONLY they, know it – confirmed and agreed with, because perversely that makes them feel better about themselves. I’ve had people come up to me and say that Church of Me or Then Play Long helped them get through some difficult times. I’m not aware of that ever having been said about any piece of 'tis/'tisn't/black and white with no grey whatsoever clickbait.

Here he is with the classic "Poème Électronique." Good track (Marcello Carlin), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 13:15 (two years ago) Permalink

the parkes piece didn't accuse britpop of apoliticism -- that's a strawman. the one time apolitical is used its in this context:

In the confusion of austerity a brand new Britishness is afoot, like the old one but fractionally closer to fascism. More than apolitical – actively hostile to radical thought. More than dismissive of class-consciousness – angry at the slightest suggestion that anyone's problem might not be a problem with them, but a problem with Britain. It's everywhere. And every single chance it gets, it guts that "other" Britishness, the kind pop music once personified, the kind that's all about irreverence, vitality and wit.

its very particular about a certain sort of particular attitude about class and culture that blur was heralding and how that foreshadowed where britain was going, etc. and it does feel like in retrospect i can look at blur videos and feel that context in a way i couldn't have seen at the time. the idea that they were on the wrong (but triumphant) side of history is pretty powerful as a central thesis

wat is teh waht (s.clover), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 13:21 (two years ago) Permalink

Also, Blur seemed to coat itself in vague political signifiers on their Britpop albums. Whether or not they were actually political, or just tourists, is a more significant question to raise than if it been about, I don't know, M People.

Pulp also, people always claim they were on the 'right' side of this divide, as opposed to Blur, somehow more compassionate and less snarky, but does Common People really make sense? I mean, it's an amazing composition, but isn't there something condescending and problematic about the narrator basically telling a young woman that he will always be more real than her, because she can always 'call her daddy'?

Frederik B, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 13:22 (two years ago) Permalink

Dodgy were from Hounslow IIRC

Bromsgrove, actually

Just noise and screaming and no musical value at all. (Colonel Poo), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 13:31 (two years ago) Permalink

And what about “Common People”? What about it? Yes, these pallid working class types, they dance and drink and screw because there’s NOTHING ELSE TO DO. Dammit, JC, how would YOU know?

That's what you take from that line??

What is wrong with songs? Absolutely nothing. Songs are great. (DL), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 13:34 (two years ago) Permalink

angry at the slightest suggestion that anyone's problem might not be a problem with them, but a problem with Britain.

But that isn't Blur at all. I know Damon contradicted himself a lot but he did say this when Parklife came out: "It annoys me when we're accused of having this nostalgic romance with a mythical lost Britain. Where are these songs about how great the country is? Nearly every one is tempered with cynicism and aggression."

What is wrong with songs? Absolutely nothing. Songs are great. (DL), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 13:41 (two years ago) Permalink

And what about “Common People”? What about it? Yes, these pallid working class types, they dance and drink and screw because there’s NOTHING ELSE TO DO. Dammit, JC, how would YOU know?

That's what you take from that line??

It's pretty patronising when you think about it and it is reflected in some of his other songs, e.g. "Fat Children" where he compares underclass kids to maggots.

Here he is with the classic "Poème Électronique." Good track (Marcello Carlin), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 13:47 (two years ago) Permalink

xpost Not going to argue, Marcello, because there's a lot of truth in what you say. But there's never been a golden age of journalism where a great many pieces were not written to order by editors, because the editor wanted that piece. It was ever thus and always will be. The web means they just get seen by and discussed by an awful lot more people now.

But I'm not ashamed of the fact that journalism is a job (in my case a staff job, which circumscribes my ability to say no to things), not an art. I'm not ashamed that I can turn round a cogent 900 words on a wide variety of subjects in a very short time. The pieces I'm proudest of are those where I've out something of myself into them, and worked on them for a long time. But I wouldn't get the chance to do them if I couldn't also do 900 words to short order. And I will not be made to feel ashamed of having that ability. Your pieces are brilliant, Marcello, but they're also very personal, written for you, and if anyone else like's them that's a bonus. I don't have that luxury. I can't write 12,000 words on an album, because it would take up too much time I have to spend doing other things, because the ratio of readers to effort would be too poor, because that's not what newspapers do.

Unsettled defender (ithappens), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 13:49 (two years ago) Permalink

idk, i think Common People is a song that sits on fault-lines (or mirror-cracks) - the narrator's class-anxious, can't settle himself somewhere, sort of claiming the real, sort of horrified by it, self-dramatising - I think that's some of its real power, its unwillingness to be fixed. There's quite a complicated unpleasantness to Pulp-in-their-prime, that yes, I think Jarvis-as-national-treasure types don't always look straight at -but it's part of why I keep coming back. Messy.

which is all well and good but it has just occurred to me to wonder if Cameron and/or Osborne has ever done a drunken (or coked up) crowd singalong with it. How many weddings have they been to where it was played?

woof, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 14:00 (two years ago) Permalink

OTM. It's the messiness and neurosis about class identity that makes Common People so compelling, especially in contrast to the pretty horrible Mis-Shapes.

What is wrong with songs? Absolutely nothing. Songs are great. (DL), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 14:06 (two years ago) Permalink

(ithappens xp)

Well, you’re talking about journalism there, which as I’ve said many times before is an entirely different calling from being a writer like what I am. I couldn’t do what you do because I’ve never had any journalistic training, same as you couldn’t do what I do for a living because you’re not, as far as I know, a trained NHS professional. Just because I have to *DON’T TALK ABOUT YOUR DAY JOB ONLINE EDIT* on a daily basis doesn’t preclude me from going home and writing; indeed it gives me the means to do so. No need to feel ashamed of the skills that you do have and I never suggested that you should.

The TPL pieces ARE very personal but they’re not written for me. I could tell you who they’re written for and why they’re written but frankly that ain’t nobody else’s business. You’re right about the poor readers-to-effort ratio, though.

I’ll stop here and get off the bus, though, because then this thread becomes about me and my sodding blog again, rather than Britpop.

Here he is with the classic "Poème Électronique." Good track (Marcello Carlin), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 14:08 (two years ago) Permalink

Anyway, I'm not seeking a row. I just think it's sometimes helpful for people to remember that jobbing journalists do jobs. Just like jobbing builders, plumbers, NHS professionals and so on.

And you know I'm an admirer of TPL.

Unsettled defender (ithappens), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 14:11 (two years ago) Permalink

might not have done anything of note or value for a good decade and a half

Synchronize is killer and the Nancy Sinatra songs were good

Gritty Shakur (sic), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 14:15 (two years ago) Permalink

appreciate setting the cut off at Pickled Eggs & Sherbert though

Gritty Shakur (sic), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 14:15 (two years ago) Permalink

Is Jarvis a "national treasure" anyway? I get the impression no-one gives a toss about him these days.

everyday sheeple (Michael B), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 14:24 (two years ago) Permalink

but isn't there something condescending and problematic about the narrator basically telling a young woman that he will always be more real than her, because she can always 'call her daddy'?

Whoa!

The lyric contains "Common people, like you" but in reply the phrase "Common People like me" is never used.

Mark G, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 14:26 (two years ago) Permalink

xp I think he might have peaked as a n/t two or three years ago, & that was largely Observer world.
)

woof, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 14:29 (two years ago) Permalink

x-post: Uhm, yeah, it is? In the second chorus, right?

But if the good thing with Jarvis is the messiness and his neurosis about class, then why can't we use the same excuse to like Damon?

Frederik B, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 14:30 (two years ago) Permalink

I said "yeah?
Well I can't see anyone else smiling in here.
Are you sure you want to live like common people,
you want to see whatever common people see,
you want to sleep with common people,
you want to sleep with common people,
like me."
But she didn't understand,
she just smiled and held my hand.

Frederik B, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 14:30 (two years ago) Permalink

btw has anyone read this? it was mentioned in Taylor Parkes' article

everyday sheeple (Michael B), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 14:31 (two years ago) Permalink

Ah, you missed out a question mark, which does make a difference and is what I was meaning.

But, fair point.

Mark G, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 14:32 (two years ago) Permalink

Can you remember where the R. Young article was, Tom? I'd like to read what he had to say. A brief google failed to turn anything up. No doubt his lambasting had the zeal of the convert.

Ummmm, I think it was in a review about some book about indie music, a history of indie music or sumthin' ... it was from 2006 or thereabouts, didn't strike me as his finest moment

A frenzied geologist (Tom D.), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 14:42 (two years ago) Permalink

xpost - I think The PG:Singles Club is better, but it's definitely worth a read. Back in the day (say 97 or so), it took me about a month to realise that David Kohl, Brem X Jones, and Gillen were one and the same…

carson dial, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 14:51 (two years ago) Permalink

I'm not sure I understand the significance of 'like me' in this discussion...

Appreciate that Jarvis's lyric could be interpreted a number of ways. I know, also, how much of a cop-out this might sounds, but I'm often wary of over-analysing lyrical minutiae in pop songs because it's likely that a songwriter can only do so much as the song allows. Writing a song is different from writing an opinion piece or even poetry because you're constrained by factors like metre, length, rhyming scheme and what simply sounds best when rolling off the tongue or belted out in a chorus, so it's not like all songwriters deserve to have their work scrutinised every which way. All too often you have to make concessions.

1 pONO 3v3Ry+h1n G!!!1 (dog latin), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 15:18 (two years ago) Permalink

*might sound

1 pONO 3v3Ry+h1n G!!!1 (dog latin), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 15:19 (two years ago) Permalink

What I mean is, it's unlikely Jarvis sat down one day and said 'I want to write a song about class and sex tourism', wrote out a load of lyrics detailing his exact succinct thoughts on the subject and then wrote a tune around it. It's probably the other way round, and writing smart lyrics like this is tough enough as it is without having to consider ambiguous and implicit meanings that may or may not be construed from outside interpretation. You can do your best, but no matter what you're going to be open to having them picked apart when written down.

1 pONO 3v3Ry+h1n G!!!1 (dog latin), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 15:25 (two years ago) Permalink

aiui the 'like me' question in this thread turns on whether Jarvis is saying that he is a Common Person, or whether he's effectively quoting the Greek girl back at herself with a raised eyebrow of amusement, confusion or disbelief ('You think I'm a common person? well, let me explain…'). (obvs the latter imo)

I'm often wary of over-analysing lyrical minutiae

NOT ME

woof, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 15:32 (two years ago) Permalink

I'm often wary of over-analysing lyrical minutiae
NOT ME
But she didn't understand, she just smiled and held my hand

1 pONO 3v3Ry+h1n G!!!1 (dog latin), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 15:34 (two years ago) Permalink

Lyrics are designed to be sung anyhow. The way a lyric is sung can change the whole meaning of the song. I actually prefer Bill Shatner and Joe Jackson's interpretation of 'Common People' because I feel Jarvis mutters a lot of the lyrics and it wasn't until I heard the Shatters version that I even understood the all the words.

1 pONO 3v3Ry+h1n G!!!1 (dog latin), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 15:36 (two years ago) Permalink

But… he doesn't have to consider the outside interpretations. He just has to write the lyrics: they may be part-defined by the tune, by the rhymes, by accident - but selecting or intuiting something that feels right or funny, that fits, he makes a thing complicated, probably beyond his conscious intentions (and that's leaving aside the band's part in it all). We sit here and argue about it; we build new meanings and relate it to our lives in fresh ways; eventually we get sacked when the network admin realises how much time we're spending reading ILM at work.

woof, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 15:40 (two years ago) Permalink

Jarvis published his lyrics in a nice Faber & Faber volume, so they must be meant to be taken somewhat seriously. Here's his brief note on Common People from that book:

Eyeball Kicks, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 15:40 (two years ago) Permalink

Always find it interesting that, although they seem to be the act most people like out of it, they were eventuallychamstrung with the Britpop label - unlike Blur and Oasis. If you plot a timeline theres no big act more synonymous with the rise and fall of Britpop.

Master of Treacle, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 15:54 (two years ago) Permalink

Best Pulp album is well after Britpop imo

everyday sheeple (Michael B), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 15:58 (two years ago) Permalink

Yeah, but people really started to jump off the bus at that point. Help the Aged was successful but their staying power declined. Unlike Blur and Oasis, crappy Be Here Now or not

Master of Treacle, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 16:08 (two years ago) Permalink

It's interesting that nowadays Britpop is firmly defined as Blur/Oasis and others. It's easy to imagine a 1990s without Oasis, which would then mean (surely?) no Shed Seven, no Cast etc., at least not under the Britpop umbrella.

The Select union jack cover, in spring 1993, long before anyone had heard of Oasis, had Suede, St Etienne, Denim, Pulp and the Auteurs on the cover. Most of these are not even particularly guitar-y, and they're barely rock. The middle three especially were definitely onto something similar - that I very much liked at the time - and it's weird that history has bracketed them with Cast and Northern Uproar.

The Britpop Now BBC programme in 1995 still didn't have any of that straightforward northern guitar rock: Blur, Elastica, The Boo Radleys, PJ Harvey, Menswe@r, Echobelly, Gene, Supergrass, Sleeper, Marion, Powder, Pulp. Quite a bit of shit, right enough, but PJ Harvey!

Eyeball Kicks, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 16:21 (two years ago) Permalink

OK so on a micro level britpop ws nearly something soecial/inclusive? Shit. St Et ws my fav band in those days, one of them now

sonic thedgehod (albvivertine), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 16:28 (two years ago) Permalink

I'd argue that it's impossible to imagine the (mid-to-late) '90s without Oasis.

Toni Braxton-Hicks (Turrican), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 16:40 (two years ago) Permalink

ricky don't lose that number nine shirt (NickB), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 16:51 (two years ago) Permalink

I always felt like "Common People" was a pretty direct critique on how art students/rock kids/etc. worship the working class and do so in a patronizing way that embraces and justifies their own nihilism. Basically dressing up self-indulgent 20s hedonism as something profound and authentic because the lower classes do this. Nobody in the club drinking/dancing/screwing is really lower class, it's just full of these entitled elitists judging each other.

▴▲ ▴TH3CR()$BY$H()W▴▲ ▴ (Adam Bruneau), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 16:58 (two years ago) Permalink

The best part of 'Common People' for me is the part they actually edited out of the single version!

Toni Braxton-Hicks (Turrican), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 17:01 (two years ago) Permalink

Pretty sure theres an entire thread devoted to analysing the lyrics of "Common People" in excruciating detail

A frenzied geologist (Tom D.), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 17:10 (two years ago) Permalink

why not do it in this thread that is so worthwhile buoyant and inspiring

mattresslessness, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 17:16 (two years ago) Permalink

even more so, now you've made your contribution :P

Toni Braxton-Hicks (Turrican), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 17:28 (two years ago) Permalink

1) Oasis - Roll With It
2) Blur Country House
3) Ocean Colour Scene - Day We Caught The Train
4) Dodgy - Good Enough
5) Kula Shaker - Hey Dude
6) Cast - Live The Dream
7) Powder - Afrodisiac
8) Supernaturals- Smile
9) Catatonia - Mulder & Scully
10) Space Feat Cerys - The Ballad Of Tom Jones
11) The Divine Comedy - Something for the Weekend
12) My Life Story - 12 Reasons Why I Love Her
13) Sleeper - Inbetweener
14) Lightning Seeds - 3 Lions
15) Babybird - You’re Gorgeous.
16) Bluetones - Cut Some Rug
17) Reef - Place Your Hands.
18) Shed Seven - Dolphin.
19) Longpigs - She Said.
20) Catch - Bingo.
21) Embrace - All You Good Good People.
22) The Levellers - What A Beautiful Day
23) Jocasta - Change Me
24) Nilon Bombers - Superstar
25) Ether - Best Friend
26) Mainstream - Step Right Up
27) Midget - All Fall Down
28)18 Wheeler - Crabs
29) Robbie Williams - Angels.
30) The Verve - Lucky Man
31) Manic Street Preachers - The Everlasting
32) Suede - Head Music
33) Thurman - English Tea
34) Northern Uproar - Town
35) Menswe@r - Stardust
36)Smokin' Mojo Filters - Come Together
37) Ruth - I Don't Know
38) The Seahorses - Ypu Can Talk To Me
39) Republica - Drop \\dead Gorgeous
40) Rialto - Monday Morning 5.19
41) Travis - More Than Us
42) Stereophonics - More Life in a Tramp's Vest
43) Hurricane #1 - Only the Strongest Will Survive
44) The Charlatans - How High
45) Puressence - This Feeling
46) Feeder - Buck Rogers
47) Terrorvision - Tequila.

47 of the shittest songs of the era. One song per band max. Anything else to be added?

― ۩, Tuesday, April 29, 2014 1:22 AM (16 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I'm looking over this list again, and I think there's worse songs by some of these bands. I definitely don't think 'Lucky Man' deserves to be on this list, and I like 'Inbetweener'. Sorry!

Toni Braxton-Hicks (Turrican), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 18:00 (two years ago) Permalink

dancing drinking & screwing are all highly enjoyable activities what the hell else would you even want to do, hooray for being poor

is my takeaway

paolo amusing eclectic revivals (wins), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 18:07 (two years ago) Permalink

I'm looking over this list again, and I think there's worse songs by some of these bands.

― Toni Braxton-Hicks (Turrican)

Agreed.

Blur - Top Man/ Mr Robinson's Quango
Oasis - All Around the World
Cast - Guiding Star
My Life Story - Strumpet
Divine Comedy - Shouldn't be on the list..oh ok I've Been to a Marvelous Party
Sleeper - Nice Guy Eddie
Menswe@r - We Love You
Shed Seven - Bully Boy
Kula Shaker - Crispian Reading From The Mahabharata
Feeder - High
The Bluetones - Autophilia (Or How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love My Car)
The Charlatans - Tough one, did they have any terrible songs in the 90s? How High definitely isn't one.

Kitchen Person, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 18:47 (two years ago) Permalink

Robbie Williams - Strong

Kitchen Person, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 18:48 (two years ago) Permalink

feeder - high got added in its place remember
http://open.spotify.com/user/pfunkboy/playlist/0y0gMIOGyKaqj70K3eEprx

۩, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 19:07 (two years ago) Permalink

Mr Robinson's Quango has to be Blur's worst song, surely?

1 pONO 3v3Ry+h1n G!!!1 (dog latin), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 19:12 (two years ago) Permalink

i would defend the bluetones on the whole. they get a bad rap.

1 pONO 3v3Ry+h1n G!!!1 (dog latin), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 19:13 (two years ago) Permalink

you couldn't make it up

dickbait (wins), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 19:16 (two years ago) Permalink

first album was decent anyway

1 pONO 3v3Ry+h1n G!!!1 (dog latin), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 19:17 (two years ago) Permalink

I'd argue that it's impossible to imagine the (mid-to-late) '90s without Oasis.

wish i'd been around to get in on this

you poll a lot, but you're not saying anything (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 19:18 (two years ago) Permalink

Oh, gees, All Around the World. Heard it again recently, it's just abysmal. I love the story that they had written it before DefMay, but set it aside until they could get the budget to do it properly. And then this was the best they could do...

Like, in the Hollywood-biopic, we begin with young Liam and Noel demoing that song as kids, and Noel going: 'one day, we will finish this, and this will be our legacy'. And the final scene has him sitting in the dark, post-bender, switching between the demo and the recording, crying over the loss of innocence and squandering of promise.

Except that I can't imagine All Around the World wasn't shit to begin with. Still.

Frederik B, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 19:21 (two years ago) Permalink

as good a place as any to show this again

everyday sheeple (Michael B), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 20:03 (two years ago) Permalink

i would defend the bluetones on the whole. they get a bad rap.

― 1 pONO 3v3Ry+h1n G!!!1 (dog latin), Tuesday, April 29, 2014 7:13 PM (51 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I honestly don't mind their first couple of albums (their second album especially), but that song that Kitchen Person mentioned ('Autophilia') really is incredibly, incredibly corny.

Toni Braxton-Hicks (Turrican), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 20:07 (two years ago) Permalink

The Bluetones were dreadful except for "Slight Return"

everyday sheeple (Michael B), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 20:08 (two years ago) Permalink

Mr Robinson's Quango has to be Blur's worst song, surely?

― 1 pONO 3v3Ry+h1n G!!!1 (dog latin), Tuesday, April 29, 2014 7:12 PM (55 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Hmm. If we're talking about stuff that went onto the albums, then 'Top Man' is definitely far, far worse for me. But if we factor the B-sides into the equation, jesus...

Toni Braxton-Hicks (Turrican), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 20:09 (two years ago) Permalink

trouble in the message centre ugh

everyday sheeple (Michael B), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 20:11 (two years ago) Permalink

The Bluetones were dreadful except for "Slight Return"

― everyday sheeple (Michael B), Tuesday, April 29, 2014 8:08 PM (50 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

'If...' is better than 'Slight Return', for one. As are some of the album tracks like 'Ames', 'U.T.A.', 'The Jub-Jub Bird'...

Toni Braxton-Hicks (Turrican), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 20:12 (two years ago) Permalink

trouble in the message centre ugh

― everyday sheeple (Michael B), Tuesday, April 29, 2014 8:11 PM (42 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

God, no! That's one of my highlights of Parklife alongside 'Badhead', 'London Loves' and 'Clover Over Dover'!

Toni Braxton-Hicks (Turrican), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 20:12 (two years ago) Permalink

Wow, Trouble in the Message Centre is my favourite Blur song.

Kitchen Person, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 20:22 (two years ago) Permalink

Really? I always felt it was a bad Gary Numan rip

everyday sheeple (Michael B), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 20:23 (two years ago) Permalink

Bluetones songs I quite enjoy.

Slight Return
Bluetonic
Driftwood
Carnt Be Trusted
Putting Out Fires
My Neighbour's House
Emily's Pine
Zorro
Broken Starr
Last of the Great Navigators
If...
Down at the Reservoir

That's probably double the amount of songs I like by Oasis.

Kitchen Person, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 20:26 (two years ago) Permalink

Really? I always felt it was a bad Gary Numan rip

― everyday sheeple (Michael B)

I've always loved the new wave feel of it. Also it's one of their songs that sounds nothing like any of their others in any way.

Kitchen Person, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 20:27 (two years ago) Permalink

roll with it really is the worst oasis from their glory years.

۩, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 20:52 (two years ago) Permalink

If by The Bluetones is a very good song indeed

PaulTMA, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 20:59 (two years ago) Permalink

the music press did really lose the run of themselves in the latter stages of the Britpop era. heres the NME review of "the great escape".

http://www.vblurpage.com/articles/albums/escape_nme.htm

there was another review in MM ridiculously overestimating the album, calling it a classic pop record and comparing it to ABC's "The Lexicon of Love"

everyday sheeple (Michael B), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 21:00 (two years ago) Permalink

The Great Escape isn't a perfect album, but it's definitely not a bad one in my opinion. Just needs a couple of the lesser songs shaving off it.

Toni Braxton-Hicks (Turrican), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 21:21 (two years ago) Permalink

No, its not a bad album but the hype around it was so OTT and unreasonable

everyday sheeple (Michael B), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 21:23 (two years ago) Permalink

there was another review in MM ridiculously overestimating the album, calling it a classic pop record and comparing it to ABC's "The Lexicon of Love"

― everyday sheeple (Michael B)

Ha, I like a lot of The Great Escape but they're comparing it to my favourite album of all time there. Just no.

Kitchen Person, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 21:25 (two years ago) Permalink

I'm listening to All Around The World. It is literally the worst. I can't believe...

1 pONO 3v3Ry+h1n G!!!1 (dog latin), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 21:26 (two years ago) Permalink

No wonder people think Britpop was terrible with this getting to number one. A song which sounds like it was written, lyrics and all, in less time than it takes to hear it.

1 pONO 3v3Ry+h1n G!!!1 (dog latin), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 21:26 (two years ago) Permalink

Did people really buy this? For fun, or was it out of some strange misplaced civic duty? Fuck me.

1 pONO 3v3Ry+h1n G!!!1 (dog latin), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 21:26 (two years ago) Permalink

xpost I'd love to read it again but I cant find it on the internet. I did buy the album on cassette on the back of that review.

everyday sheeple (Michael B), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 21:27 (two years ago) Permalink

I hate Britpop now.

1 pONO 3v3Ry+h1n G!!!1 (dog latin), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 21:28 (two years ago) Permalink

But that NME-review doesn't seem that bad, it goes in depth with the music, and even points out the flaws. He likes it much more than I do, but that's just a matter of taste. There's nothing inherently wrong in that review, and espousing a minority opinion should hardly be embarassing.

Frederik B, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 21:30 (two years ago) Permalink

xpost Haha, although I like the way the Bluetones kind of ripped-off All Around The World and made them much more tolerable. Mark Morriss had one of the better vocal ranges out of the second tier BP bands:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kW8JG7om3i8

1 pONO 3v3Ry+h1n G!!!1 (dog latin), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 21:33 (two years ago) Permalink

I'm listening to All Around The World. It is literally the worst. I can't believe...

No wonder people think Britpop was terrible with this getting to number one. A song which sounds like it was written, lyrics and all, in less time than it takes to hear it.

Did people really buy this? For fun, or was it out of some strange misplaced civic duty? Fuck me.

― 1 pONO 3v3Ry+h1n G!!!1 (dog latin), Tuesday, April 29, 2014 9:26 PM (7 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Listening to Be Here Now on day of release, and especially after all the hype surrounding it, was an incredibly deflating experience for many reasons, but I particularly remember hearing this track for the first time and thinking "okay, this is just ridiculous".

The only reason I can think of that it got to #1 was that Oasis at that point still had a large enough fanbase that would buy any single that they put out. Maybe they were just completing their singles collections, or at least hoping the B-sides would be better.

Toni Braxton-Hicks (Turrican), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 21:39 (two years ago) Permalink

I think it's what such a big hit because of the way Noel sings "These are crazy days but they make me sheeiiiine"

▴▲ ▴TH3CR()$BY$H()W▴▲ ▴ (Adam Bruneau), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 21:48 (two years ago) Permalink

I remember my brother playing this album over and over and I remember sitting writing an email to a (baffled) friend as I was hearing it play through his door, detailing every stupid shitty new unbelievable 'worst bit ever', and All Around the World is the one that stuck with me for making me really mad

kinder, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 21:48 (two years ago) Permalink

btw many x-posts but there's a Phonogram thread on I Love Comics

kinder, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 21:48 (two years ago) Permalink

The best thing about All Around the World is that it is 9½ minutes long, and then there's a reprise of it at the end of the album. Like... I mean...

Frederik B, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 21:53 (two years ago) Permalink

I mean, 2 min reprise, but still.

Frederik B, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 21:53 (two years ago) Permalink

Is All Around the World the one with the Yellow Submarine video? I agree that was the worst, though I'd argue that every single from Roll With It onwards was also the worst.

popchips: the next snapple? (seandalai), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 21:55 (two years ago) Permalink

Mark Morriss had one of the better vocal ranges out of the second tier BP bands:

LOL no he wasn't. He was by far the worst. His best days were worse than Ian Brown's drugged up worst.

۩, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 22:22 (two years ago) Permalink

.. Noel Gallagher said of the song, "With "Supersonic", I worried I was never going to write another song after that 'cos I thought, 'It sounds that good'... Two days later I superseded it by about 50 fuckin' times. The reason we haven't recorded that song is because there isn't enough money in Creation Records' bank balance to pay for the production of that record. When we do that record..." Noel also added when asked if there would be an orchestra on it, "Orchestras, man? It's not got to be one, it's got to be two".[citation needed]
Noel described the song shortly before the release of the album: "I wrote this one ages ago, before "Whatever". It was twelve minutes long then. It was a matter of being able to afford to record it. But now we can get away with the 36-piece orchestra. And the longer the better as far as I'm concerned. If it's good. I can see what people are going to say, but fuck 'em, basically."[citation needed]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_Around_the_World_(Oasis_song)

piscesx, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 22:22 (two years ago) Permalink

Jamie Harding from Marion was, in my opinion, the best vocalist out of all of them. Better than any of the vocalists from the first-tier Britpop bands, I'd argue. Shame he was a Doherty-level drug fiend.

Toni Braxton-Hicks (Turrican), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 22:27 (two years ago) Permalink

Jaime, rather.

Toni Braxton-Hicks (Turrican), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 22:29 (two years ago) Permalink

Jamie did indeed have a great voice and a great look. Really wish he hadn't thrown it all away.

Kitchen Person, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 22:34 (two years ago) Permalink

xpost some student next door blared "supersonic" two times in a row today. jesus im being plagued by britpop this week

everyday sheeple (Michael B), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 22:35 (two years ago) Permalink

Man, the centerpiece of my Oasis biopic will just be 45 min on the making of All Around the World, made like the bell-casting scene in Andrei Rublyev. Just going into every little detail as a bunch of cokeheads tramble all over this inane little childrens song.

Frederik B, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 22:37 (two years ago) Permalink

Anyone else think At the Drive In had a bit of a Marion influence in them at times?

1.50 into this is basically a bit of a Marion song.

http://youtu.be/NrZ7ew8n5SU

Kitchen Person, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 22:39 (two years ago) Permalink

will this Oasis biopic have a man made out of sausages?

everyday sheeple (Michael B), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 22:40 (two years ago) Permalink

Jamie did indeed have a great voice and a great look. Really wish he hadn't thrown it all away.

― Kitchen Person, Tuesday, April 29, 2014 10:34 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

And great onstage too! I only ever saw Marion once, but they were great live.

Toni Braxton-Hicks (Turrican), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 22:41 (two years ago) Permalink

Yeah I saw them too and they were fantastic. Why wasn't Miyako Hideaway a hit? Great song.

Kitchen Person, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 22:43 (two years ago) Permalink

The Great Escape isn't a perfect album, but it's definitely not a bad one in my opinion. Just needs a couple of the lesser songs shaving off it.

As an innocent young man hearing it for the first time, I definitely though The Great Escape was an instant classic and deserved all the reviews it got. To use the gauche, corny references of the mid-90s, it was the Sgt Pepper's to Parklife's Revolver: lesser songs, but brilliantly conceived and produced. Yes, it doesn't stand up so much now, but it's still a pleasure to listen to pretty much from beginning to end. Mr Robinson's Quango is terrible and the Ken Livingstone song is too much, but otherwise I even like Top Man, which is just the Fun Boy Three played for laughs. Terrible lyrics, but even the best Blur songs (e.g. This Is A Low, as Taylor Parkes points out) have ridiculous lyrics.

No one writing up Britpop - at least the Blur end of Britpop - really seems to mention Martin Amis, which is strange, because his influence is so apparent on much of this stuff. London Fields, I think, more even than Money. He Thought of Cars couldn't exist without him, and he's in so many other songs. His reputation has suffered since the 90s in the same way Britpop's has. His style was also obviously a huge influence on many of the writers on the mid-90s music press. In Taylor Parkes' recent article you could still see those familiar sentence constructions - kind of comforting, kind of absurd.

Eyeball Kicks, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 22:43 (two years ago) Permalink

What a sickeningly brilliant thread this is, it confirms my teenage hypothesis that 99.9% of people are diabolically clueless cunts who pretend to like music.

xelab, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 23:12 (two years ago) Permalink

Since I discovered that Audacity has a function built into it so it emulates playing 45 singles at 33 1/3rpm, and because of this thread, I've been running various Britpop "classics" through it. 'Place Your Hands' by Reef slowed down is the funniest fucking thing ever.

Toni Braxton-Hicks (Turrican), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 23:12 (two years ago) Permalink

What a sickeningly brilliant thread this is, it confirms my teenage hypothesis that 99.9% of people are diabolically clueless cunts who pretend to like music.

― xelab, Tuesday, April 29, 2014 11:12 PM (42 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

And the other 0.01% are just cunts?

Toni Braxton-Hicks (Turrican), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 23:13 (two years ago) Permalink

Taste in music is 90% your geographical location/social networks/inherited physical and cultural traits and 10% the effort you put into socializing.

▴▲ ▴TH3CR()$BY$H()W▴▲ ▴ (Adam Bruneau), Wednesday, 30 April 2014 01:52 (two years ago) Permalink

I've just reread some Martin Amis (Money and Success) and he is (or quite possibly ws) v great. Albarn mentioning him (London Fields specifically) in an early tiny Rolling Stone bit ws what made 13 or so yrold me read him, actually

sonic thedgehod (albvivertine), Wednesday, 30 April 2014 03:21 (two years ago) Permalink

The most spot-on Pulp parody:

Toni Braxton-Hicks (Turrican), Wednesday, 30 April 2014 03:33 (two years ago) Permalink

▴▲ ▴TH3CR()$BY$H()W▴▲ ▴ (Adam Bruneau), Wednesday, 30 April 2014 03:45 (two years ago) Permalink

Jarvis Cocker (Pulp) - vocals
Jonny Greenwood (Radiohead) - lead guitar
Jason Buckle (All Seeing I) - rhythm guitar
Steve Mackey (Pulp) - bass
Steve Claydon (Add N to (X)) - keyboards
Phil Selway (Radiohead) - drums