The Sundays : C or D

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It sounds like The Pinefox is a little upset at the rough treatment which Lloyd Cole received in an old C or D thread. Here's our chance to be cheer him up by being kind about one of his other favourites (IIRC)- The Sundays.

― Dr. C, Monday, 11 June 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

reading writing & arithmetic is a really good album i reckon. it has that provincial, small town suburban atmosphere that the smiths and b&s could never have (too urban, too self conscious). life can be ordinary (in a good way) and ' reading...' seems to reflect that (bmx's past the post office etc). the sound of stevenage and selby...

in subsequent releases, this feeling just didn't seem to be there though. they should have left it at one album.

― gareth, Monday, 11 June 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

_Reading, Writing & Arithmetic_ is my favourite "indie" album if that means anything. Harriet Wheeler is an amazing singer and a thoroughly underrated lyricist (her songs feature the best use of "little details" that I can think of), and Gavurin does the guitar thing to perfection. "Can't Be Sure" and "Hideous Towns" particularly bring me close to tears - the former with its irresistible climax and the latter with the heavenly jangly chorus.

The later albums are also exceedingly nice, but suffer a bit from over-sedatedness; both the playing and the singing sounds too contented, whereas the first album always struck me as the perfect evocation of the impatience of small-town youth.

― Tim, Monday, 11 June 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

Honestly speaking, I thought the Sundays were alright, but....they're also to blame for the truly wretched Cranberries.

― alex in nyc, Monday, 11 June 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

I think only Satan is to blame for the Cranberries. Surely that can be the only explanation for their existence.

As for the Sundays -- absolutely wonderful. Like Tim, Reading, Writing & Arithmetic is one of my favorite albums (I won't even qualify it with "indie"). Harriet Wheeler just has one of the great voices in pop. They've been awfully quiet lately, haven't they? A shame.

― Nicole, Monday, 11 June 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

The really steadily declined in goodness as the albums went on. I have memories attatched so I can't be objecive, but I'd say RR arithmetic was the best.

― -- Mike Hanley, Monday, 11 June 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

Are they still around anymore? I agree that Harriet W is a great singer, but overall they're just a touch polite for me. A best-of would be nice.

― Dr.C, Monday, 11 June 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

Reading, Writing and Arithmetic is utterly wonderful, and I can't think of anything that could improve it. I never really caught up with much of their later work, but I was *very* disappointed with (what sounded to me like) the smug self-satisfaction of Static and Silence.

― Robin Carmody, Monday, 11 June 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

Yeah. 'Reading... ' one of the last, true jangly, 'C86'-style indie albums. And still a delight. I have to stick up for 'Static & Silence' though. At first it sounded to me to airy, to lightweight, to *inconsequential* to make any real impression on me. It sounded interchangeable with any of the many 'sensitive girly' singer-songwriter albums about. But eventually it clicked. During an overnight train journey I only had the 'Static' on my walkman. I couldn't fall asleep so I played it over and over. Watching a blue dawn creep over the country-side while Harriet softly cooed 'I Can't Wait' in my ear... it worked a spell on me. It fitted. It sounded *right*. Give it another try.

― DavidM, Monday, 11 June 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

very overrated.

― Omar, Tuesday, 12 June 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

5 months pass...

Hate to just toss another thumbs up on the pile, but RRandA is one of my top ten all time records. I simply never get tired of it. It's the kind of CD that you can listen to anytime, brilliantly understated production. It makes me remember college (the best days of my life) with lots of fondness. This record and 10,000 Maniacs Our Time in Eden are my favorite mellow pop records of all time.

― Jeff Guidry, Wednesday, 21 November 2001 01:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

Once a fan, I couldn't listen all the way through 'Reading, Writing and Arithmetic' now. All so terribly twee, like Laura Ashley-frocks, afternoon tea, and National Trust home-made jam. A safe, cosy, misty- eyed 'Englishness' that would warm the heart of John Major but leaves me cold.

― stevo, Wednesday, 21 November 2001 01:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

Harriet Wheeler's voice is ok but I always found that Caroline Crawley's of the forgotten Shelleyan Orphan was so much more beautiful, warm and expressive. She also sings on This Mortal Coil's Blood.
I was never a big Sunday's fan though I thought it was pleasant background music. I think I have to give them a spin again. But I fear Stevo is 100% right in his response. In any case they never came close to the Cocteaus, that is for sure.

― alex in mainhattan, Wednesday, 21 November 2001 01:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

Stevo's post is interesting, because curiously enough "Reading, Writing and Arithmetic" is one of the few cultural products that evokes that atmosphere but which I genuinely love (and, more to the point, could still love without hesitation during the Major era). To me it's actually a bit more suburban and down-at-heel than that, though admittedly quite closely related.

― Robin Carmody, Wednesday, 21 November 2001 01:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

8 months pass...

Doc: why do you need a Best Of? If the first 2 Sundays LPs won't make you happy, nothing will.

I have a Sundays T-shirt which is too small for me. The first time I wore it, a girl asked me 'Is that the band with the woman with the very high voice who sings about toilets?'. It was a long time ago. But my life is made of memories like this.

They are still among my idols. I hope I never meet them. (And that goes for the Sundays too.)

― the pinefox, Monday, 29 July 2002 00:00 (10 years ago) Permalink

Pine - I didn't say I *needed* one. I said it would be *nice*. Too nice probably.

That said - you've rekindled something or other which is making me quite want to hear Here's Where The Story Ends or somesuch.

Was the third album any good? Did one even exist?

― Dr. C, Monday, 29 July 2002 00:00 (10 years ago) Permalink

Third LP = Static & Silence. It kicks off with "Summertime", which I thought was fab at the time, not so much now. The rest of it is nice, safe stuff. The sound of a band that no longer needs to wear 'a cardigan and a dress that I've been sick on'. The title track, a memory song about watching the moon landings on TV, still has the ability to move me just like the classic first LP tho'.

Now, anyone care to defend Blind?

― Jeff W, Monday, 29 July 2002 00:00 (10 years ago) Permalink

Re: Static & Silence - I've really warmed to it in the past year or so from hearing it played at work (oddly - and even more oddly it one of the very few albums ever that actually sounds better after you've heard it a hundred times coming out of tinny background speakers). It's still 'sedate', but I don't think I'd ever realised just how evocative it can be. (search and download: "Folk Song", "She", "Monochrome")

― Tim, Monday, 29 July 2002 00:00 (10 years ago) Permalink

Blind, for me, is maybe one of the top 3 LPs of the 90s. If you don't like it, I wouldn't want to persuade you otherwise. But it can still move me as few other records can.

Static & Silence was a major comedown after the first two: I guess I agree about the cardigan comment, which sums it up neatly enough. It always mystifies me that so many people rate LP#3 over LP#2 - which while not as good as LP#1 (what is?) still feels close enough (cos early enough) to the essence of the band.

'Summertime' is an OK 45, but it's not what's great about the Sundays. I can't say that much for 'Monochrome' either. Probably the best track is indeed 'She'.

― the pinefox, Monday, 29 July 2002 00:00 (10 years ago) Permalink

mmmmmmm.....Harriet.

― Chris, Monday, 29 July 2002 00:00 (10 years ago) Permalink

I do like "Static and Silence" a lot, but the attempts at Joe Boyd- esque production tend to make it a little wishy washy at times. The first Sundays album has got to be one of the best pop albums ever, if not the best indiepop album ever.

― electric sound of jim, Monday, 29 July 2002 00:00 (10 years ago) Permalink

Embarrassing personal revelation: I was repeatedly asked to just leave a Sundays mailing list if I was so damn disappointed with Static and Silence. I'd also add that when I was 14 or so and at the peak of my Sundays fandom, I liked Blind much more than Reading, Writing and Arithmetic -- but I was a few months away from getting into shoegazing and the Cocteau Twins, so I was probably giving Blind credit for a lot of "dreamy" touches I'd hadn't fully sourced out yet.

― nabisco, Monday, 29 July 2002 00:00 (10 years ago) Permalink

But Blind is much better than anything the Cocteau Twins ever did.

― ryan, Monday, 29 July 2002 00:00 (10 years ago) Permalink

But isn't "Cry" a lovely song? Even if the mandolin solo is perhaps one egg too much for the pudding.

― Venga, Wednesday, 31 July 2002 00:00 (10 years ago) Permalink

1 year passes...

Where are they from?

― Mary (Mary), Thursday, 21 August 2003 02:10 (9 years ago) Permalink

the UK

― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Thursday, 21 August 2003 02:23 (9 years ago) Permalink

There was a time I was absolutely mad for the Sundays. That time ended approximately two weeks ago, when "mad" gave way to a more gentile "wild."

Seriously, Harriet Wheeler has the most beautiful female voice I've ever heard. Going against conventional rockist wisdom, I'd pick her over Aretha, Dusty, Nina, Billie or any other highly regarded musical woman in pop's history.

It's hard to believe it's been six years since Static & Silence came out (a full five years after Blind). I'm hoping there will be a 4th album by 2010, but I fear that will forever remain a daydream.

― Andrew Frye (paul cox), Thursday, 21 August 2003 02:25 (9 years ago) Permalink

7 months pass...

are there even any rumours anymore? Where have the Sundays gone?

― derrick (derrick), Sunday, 28 March 2004 07:48 (9 years ago) Permalink

I find it difficult to believe I never noticed this thread before.

I am touched by Gareth's reference to Stevenage back there. But it's difficult to reconcile the wistful charms of Wheeler with the damply grim banality of the town. In fact they remind me of Norwich, party because that was where I was studying when I heard them and partly because they seem more appropriate to that slightly sleepy market town setting.

Harriet Wheeler once kissed me. I will take that memory to the grave.

― Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Sunday, 28 March 2004 09:37 (9 years ago) Permalink

Harriet Wheeler once kissed me. I will take that memory to the grave.

She once waited at the same bus stop as me in Camden with David G, child and shopping. I will take that memory to Safeway.

― Michael Jones (MichaelJ), Sunday, 28 March 2004 11:05 (9 years ago) Permalink

Well - it takes all sorts to make a world - for me "Static and Silence" is their best record.

I don't know if "Cry" is about the death of Harriet's dad, but I KNOW it's about the death of mine: I have to programme it out if I don't want to burst into tears.

But how about "Monochrome"? What an extraordinarily atmospheric song. It's so visual; I see these two little girls looking at the moon landings on a television, and Armstrong and Aldrin dancing through the air, and then the girls looking out the window at the moon.

They're dancing around -
slow puppets, silver ground,
and the stars and stripes in the sand.
We hear a voice from above,
and it's history.
And we stayed awake
all night.

They're dancing around.
It sends a shiver down my spine,
and I run to look in the sky,
and I half expect to hear them asking to come down.

That song sure sends a shiver down *my* spine.

― Baravelli. (Jake Proudlock), Sunday, 28 March 2004 13:21 (9 years ago) Permalink

I want to improve on Mike's pay-off... but it just can't be done.

― the pinefox, Tuesday, 30 March 2004 15:08 (9 years ago) Permalink

I feel for you.

― Ally C (Ally C), Tuesday, 30 March 2004 15:51 (9 years ago) Permalink

I think I love you.

― Michael Jones (MichaelJ), Tuesday, 30 March 2004 15:56 (9 years ago) Permalink

Both of us?

― Ally C (Ally C), Tuesday, 30 March 2004 16:24 (9 years ago) Permalink

I've enjoyed "Blind" a lot more over the years. Especially the Wild Horses cover. Very underrated album. Plus, it has my favorite Morrissey lyric not written by Morrissey:

"This is my life and it's all very well, but never never ever again...."

― kickitcricket, Tuesday, 30 March 2004 18:38 (9 years ago) Permalink

That's what I get for not signing my posts (all my posts from now on, on every thread) Chaka Khan.

reading, writing and arithmetic does seem out on its own - sonically, lyrically - and Blind has a closer relation in Static and Silence I think. rwa is such a chilly, bare-floored record for all its talk of woollen things.

I recall the mixed reception Blind received on its release from the UK inkies. MM, which seemed to have thrown its lot in with the resurgent US rock scene and Brit rave culture with a little more gusto than indie centrale NME, embraced Blind as a wilful anomaly, a wistful gem - there was ET's glowing LP review, Mueller gushing over "Medicine" on the radio and a Quebecois live review in strips of purple. Lamacq gave the album a desultory three, maybe four out of ten in the NME, sad that the band he'd championed had somehow lost the power to jangle.

I saw them that December in Wolverhampton. Winter recast in the Wulfrun Hall, icicles on the lighting rig.

― Michael Jones (MichaelJ), Wednesday, 31 March 2004 08:32 (9 years ago) Permalink

She had very nice hair IIRC.

― Dr. C (Dr. C), Wednesday, 31 March 2004 08:51 (9 years ago) Permalink

I find the continuing support for Harriet's hair, and the Sundays generally, I find somewhat bemusing.

"This is my life and it's all very well, but never never ever again...."

This is a bad line that illustrates their weakness. It's nothing like Morrissey, or not like good Morrissey anyway.

― N. (nickdastoor), Wednesday, 31 March 2004 09:12 (9 years ago) Permalink

they did a bbc sesh which i only found out about recently, as the version of 'my finest hour' was on bbc6. had different words and everything. it was probably done before the album for like kid jensen or whoever.

― piscesboy, Wednesday, 31 March 2004 09:43 (9 years ago) Permalink

Mark Goodier, prob. (Kid Jensen long gone).

― N. (nickdastoor), Wednesday, 31 March 2004 09:51 (9 years ago) Permalink

Harriet Wheeler once sang happy birthday to me during a radio interview I did many years ago. I will take that with me. Don't know where, but it's coming along for the ride.

― Rob Bolton (Rob Bolton), Wednesday, 31 March 2004 10:20 (9 years ago) Permalink

Weren't they the cover stars on the first NME of the 1990s, the issue after the Roses on Top of The World Christmas double edition? Fuck, that brings me back. Everything seemed so much more precious back then. The days when indie meant more than life or death! "Can't Be Sure" was one of the big buzz singles throughout 1989 in the inklies but I remember alright the mixed reception the album then got. It did sound a little flat however aside from the 2 or 3 classics.

― David Gunnip (David Gunnip), Wednesday, 31 March 2004 13:02 (9 years ago) Permalink

They had a little cake.

― N. (nickdastoor), Wednesday, 31 March 2004 13:23 (9 years ago) Permalink

I think RWA is just about perfect from top to bottom. I don't really listen to the other two that much.

I've been on vacation. Can someone please clue me in on what IIRC means?

― rainman (rainman), Wednesday, 31 March 2004 13:29 (9 years ago) Permalink

Classic.

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Wednesday, 31 March 2004 13:37 (9 years ago) Permalink

Sorry that's misleading. I think the Sundays are Classic.

IIRC means "if I remember correctly".

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Wednesday, 31 March 2004 13:38 (9 years ago) Permalink

Harriet Wheeler once kissed me

how did we let this go by without more explanation?????

― anthony kyle monday (akmonday), Wednesday, 31 March 2004 15:05 (9 years ago) Permalink

Weren't they the cover stars on the first NME of the 1990s?
Melody Maker.
and maybe NME as well, but MM yes.

― zebedee (zebedee), Wednesday, 31 March 2004 15:11 (9 years ago) Permalink

NME yes.

― N. (nickdastoor), Wednesday, 31 March 2004 15:12 (9 years ago) Permalink

N.'s facts are customarily correct. Yet it's a fact that in MM the Sundays LED THE CHARGE INTO TOMORROW'S WHIRL. Do you people remember nothing?

I tried to post to this thread yesterday and things went wrong. So now, again, I will say, perhaps dully:

Careminted phrases pay the rent, and Jones delivers.

That sentence was far better the first time I sent it.

I *think* it was 'careminted'. If you have any better ideas, post them... below.

― the bellefox, Thursday, 1 April 2004 17:16 (9 years ago) Permalink

2 months pass...

I ended up digging out "Reading, Writing..." yesterday, because it was driving me crazy trying to figure out exactly what GURL the bloke from Delays sounds like. And Harriet Wheeler would be the answer to that question.

What a beautiful, poignant, delicious album. It has so many elements that have irritated me senseless in other bands (Cranberries, "Torn", Sixpence) but somehow it's all just charming and perfect and bicycles and cardigans and a dress, dress, dress that I've been sick on.

― People love Gravity and Evolution! (kate), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 08:28 (8 years ago) Permalink

it's psychedelic!

― pete b. (pete b.), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 08:43 (8 years ago) Permalink

But it isn't psychedelic. The Smiths are perhaps more psychedelic cause at least they had that tremolo. It's all about the jangle, that the jangle occasionally dares to be dissonant instead of just mindlessly pleasant.

― People love Gravity and Evolution! (kate), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 08:47 (8 years ago) Permalink

i'm mostly joking. it's just that i was quite surprised when i first heard the album (not long ago) because i was expecting, like you say, a pleasant jangle, and a sort of dull monochrome sonic palette. the dissonance (in the vocals as well as guitars?) was quite jarring, and i think it's this jarring sound that makes the record sound very vivid, very colourful to me. i remember on another thread someone comparing the sundays to boards of canada and i think there is a kind of homespun, dancing-in-the-meadows, very british trippiness to both of them.

― pete b. (pete b.), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 09:03 (8 years ago) Permalink

Boards of Canada + The Sundays = ?

― charltonlido (gareth), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 09:15 (8 years ago) Permalink

'dress, dress, dress that I've been sick on' - 'sitting on', surely?

― bham, Wednesday, 23 June 2004 11:15 (8 years ago) Permalink

No! Don't ruin the song for me. I've always believe that it was "sick on". Please don't tell me it's not, it will destroy it for me!

― People love Gravity and Evolution! (kate), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 11:17 (8 years ago) Permalink

FWIW I've also always heard it as "sick on"!

― Hanna (Hanna), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 11:20 (8 years ago) Permalink

That's the beauty of the Sundays, that line sums it all up for me. The juxtaposition of "In a cardigan..." (twee as fuck) "...and I dress that I've been sick on" (throwing up from booze or worse, not very twee at all) and still you love her for it.

― People love Gravity and Evolution! (kate), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 11:23 (8 years ago) Permalink

the Bic Runga track that radcliffe keeps playing reminds me, somehow, of the Sundays.

― koogs (koogs), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 11:23 (8 years ago) Permalink

http://www.lyricsfreak.com/s/sundays/133613.html says 'Sick On'

― koogs (koogs), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 11:26 (8 years ago) Permalink

Phew!

― People love Gravity and Evolution! (kate), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 11:27 (8 years ago) Permalink

This lyrics page says "sick on", phew!
http://www.huan.com/sundays/sound/reading/

I also love the lyrics for "I kicked a boy", kind of the same violent un-twee-ness, sung in Wheeler's wonderfully girlish voice that has some sort of hidden madness to it deep down somewhere.

Oh x-post! :-)

― Hanna (Hanna), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 11:30 (8 years ago) Permalink

Harriet is one of my favourite lyricists ever.

― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 12:18 (8 years ago) Permalink

Doesn't David write the words?

― Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 12:23 (8 years ago) Permalink

Argh no please don't say that this is one of my few "they really mean it" illusions!

― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 12:24 (8 years ago) Permalink

"Words and music by Gauvin/Wheeler" - doesn't actually say who does what.

I assume that Gauvin has never worn a dress, so it's probably safe to assume that particular lyric is Wheeler's. ;-)

― People love Gravity and Evolution! (kate), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 12:25 (8 years ago) Permalink

When I met them back in 92 or 93, I had a query about a particular lyric from the first album and it was certainly David who had written it.

― Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 12:27 (8 years ago) Permalink

(btw that lyric referring to a dress also says "I'm a better man than others by far")

― Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 12:28 (8 years ago) Permalink

I always thought that was a cute gender bending moment/feminist statement.

― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 12:33 (8 years ago) Permalink

It took me a while before I realized that she was singing "hideous towns make me throw up" (in keeping with the "sick on" vein).

I heard "Here's Where the Story Ends" in a grocery store the other day, making my sandwich-purchasing experience just perfect.

― Ernest P. (ernestp), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 12:46 (8 years ago) Permalink

*reads upthread and is startled* What the -- I never contributed? Not even at the start? I must be sick.

A particular thought of mine. And they were fantastic live the one time I saw them.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 13:00 (8 years ago) Permalink

But *does* Delays' vocalist really sound like HW? I'm not sure he does, though I like their LP a lot.

― the bellefox, Wednesday, 23 June 2004 14:45 (8 years ago) Permalink

I don't think he does either. I certainly did think he was in fact a female singer when I first heard them, but Ms. Wheeler didn't spring to mind.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 15:28 (8 years ago) Permalink

"On" and "Joy" - play them side by side!

― People love Gravity and Evolution! (kate), Wednesday, 23 June 2004 15:38 (8 years ago) Permalink

1 month passes...

Can I partially retract my comment on S+S of 2 years ago (!) upthread? I was listening to it again on my good stereo last night - with the volume set very low, but with the 'SBS' bass booster on the CD player accidentally switched on - and it sounded awesome. There's so much going on in the arrangements that I hadn't even noticed before.

― Jeff W (zebedee), Wednesday, 11 August 2004 15:04 (8 years ago) Permalink

Static and Silence is indeed underrated. i actually think Blind is my favorite.

― ryan (ryan), Wednesday, 11 August 2004 15:36 (8 years ago) Permalink

Every time I played Blind I liked it a little more, despite it's obvious inferiority to the first album. I'm more likely to pull out Blind, now. Didn't even try Static & Silence. Probably should have.

― Bimble (bimble), Wednesday, 11 August 2004 16:13 (8 years ago) Permalink

Yep, 'Blind' takes a very long time, but there are good songs on it, if a little less immediate.

Definitely try S+S, it's gorgeous, and quite subtle.

― derrick (derrick), Wednesday, 11 August 2004 16:23 (8 years ago) Permalink

AlexinNYC: Honestly speaking, I thought the Sundays were alright, but....they're also to blame for the truly wretched Cranberries.
Nicole: I think only Satan is to blame for the Cranberries. Surely that can be the only explanation for their existence.
I thought the first Cranberries record actually had potential. Then some nimrod compared Delores O'Riordan to Sinéad O'Connor, and Delores began imitating (badly) all the weird, erratic qualities of O'Connor without imitating any of her charms. The end result: a potentially good band turned into a bad indie rock band front by a squeaky headcase who sings like shes got the hiccups.
Zom-bih! Z'o'o'o'o'm-bih! Z'o'o'o'o'm-bih!
Argh.

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Wednesday, 11 August 2004 16:36 (8 years ago) Permalink

I actually was present at the first Cranberries gig (they were opening for Moose). They were obviously nervous as hell, but I liked them enough to buy their record. They were an okay, harmless, pretty inoffensive band for a little while there and then something horrible happened. Now if I'm in the grocery store and hear "have to let it linger..." aargh! blech!

― Bimble (bimble), Wednesday, 11 August 2004 16:58 (8 years ago) Permalink

Bah. The first Cranberries record maybe had a couple good songs (though I personally think "Dreams" was the only decent thing on it), but the underlying Delores-sings-like-a-freak stuff was already there.

It was around the time she foolishly decided she could also play the guitar that I decided I wanted to see someone kick her teeth down her throat.

― martin m. (mushrush), Wednesday, 11 August 2004 17:02 (8 years ago) Permalink

xpost

― martin m. (mushrush), Wednesday, 11 August 2004 17:02 (8 years ago) Permalink

so is there ever going to be a fourth sundays album?

― purple patch (electricsound), Wednesday, 11 August 2004 22:09 (8 years ago) Permalink

Woah!

http://www.stylusmagazine.com/feature.php?ID=1175

― the bellefox, Tuesday, 17 August 2004 15:16 (8 years ago) Permalink

That is:

If there's one advantage to being too poor to afford new records it's that you're forced to listen to the old ones you haven't quite figured out yet. Because of this it seems likely that the Sundays would benefit from a depression. Their 1990 album Reading, Writing, and Arithmetic has the unfortunate habit of reminding nearly everyone who hears it of the Smiths, and on first listen it does indeed sound like an inferior version of the latter band's debut, with strangely high-pitched vocals and guitars that can't quite find Johnny Marr's subtle hooks. But unlike most music, the album is better than it sounds. It takes some time before even the joy on its surface starts to shimmer—but once it does, Reading, Writing, and Arithmetic slowly begins to reveal itself. Only a few weeks later will one, while patiently watching the ripples on that surface, finally spot the tiny sparks of light that flicker beneath it like small, silvery fish. And perhaps a few months later, won over by the intensity of those sparks, one will begin to think about the album.

It's probably best to assume that most of the people who bought the record, and, as it seems, every critic who has written about it, never arrived at this point. If they did, they would have discovered that the Sundays are, in fact, the antithesis of the Smiths. Or if one dislikes that word, they are—among other things—the solution to the problem that the Smiths pose. You ask: 'What? The Smiths pose a problem? I knew Morrissey had problems; I even knew he liked posing—but I didn't think he posed problems...?'

When comparing the music of both groups, though, it becomes easier to see what makes Reading, Writing, and Arithmetic not only great, but truly unique—specifically their respective debut singles: the Smiths' “Hand in Glove”/”Handsome Devil”, and the Sundays' “Can't Be Sure”/”I Kicked a Boy”. Both deal with the problem of desire and love.

In “Hand in Glove” and “Handsome Devil” Morrissey makes two accusations. First, in “Hand in Glove”, he accuses a couple of fooling themselves into believing that their love will last, that their romance and thus they themselves are truly special, and that their feelings are deep and real. But, more importantly, Morrissey believes that they are aware of this. More specifically, that all romantic love is a manufactured shared 'love' to fill an internal void born of loneliness and the self-doubt that accompanies it—all of which a powerless ego attempts to conceal.

Secondly, in “Handsome Devil”, Morrissey accuses not only those who are motivated by sex, but sexual desire itself. The force of this accusation parallels that of the first. Sex, he seems to be saying, is ultimately the main element of relationships, and the inconstancy, emptiness, and arbitrariness of desire—and thus its injustice—torments him. And not only this: desire motivates us to conceal our true intentions (“Miserable Lie”: “I recognize that mystical air / It means "I'd like to see your underwear"”) and prevents us from seeing beyond appearances and into the real character of others—and thus makes the birth of a real love impossible from the start. Love is caught up in appearances, grounded in lies, and motivated by our blindest impulses, and the fact that we are so powerfully drawn by it is only a mark of our inability to know the real love of which we can conceive. Love and desire are inseparable, and yet they are bitter opponents. Obviously this is a recipe for despair—but that doesn't mean it's false. The messages of “Hand in Glove” and “Handsome Devil” are similar, although certainly—and significantly—not identical. How do we respond to the problem they present?

A few listens to Reading, Writing, and Arithmetic quickly reveals that the Sundays' are somehow accept love and desire at the same time. But it isn't this alone that sets them apart. Not only do they accept both at the same time, but they do so with full knowledge of the problem that Morrissey posed. They haven't simply ignored it, forgotten about it or remained ignorant of it. They actively affirm both. The affirmation of desire is readily apparent on “Can't Be Sure”, and the affirmation of love is easy to hear in the album track “My Finest Hours”. But is it really possible to affirm love and desire once one has realized their opposition? Isn't this having the cake and eating it too?

“Give me a story and give me a bed / Give me possessions / Love, luck, and money they go to my head / Like wildfire”, “Can't Be Sure” begins. Harriet Wheeler's lyric goes beyond merely ignoring or glossing over the full impact of sex and falsehood—she asks for them outright. “It's good to have something to live for you'll find...live for a job and a perfect behind”, she continues. Here she is directly and joyfully affirming the arbitrary, the contingent, and the frivolous. And what of injustice? “England's as happy as England can be / Why cry?” The next lines could almost be read as a direct response to the first Smiths single: “and did you know desire's a terrible thing / It makes the world go blind / But if desire, desire's a terrible thing / Well I rely on mine”. This last line is the key to the Sundays' response: they saw that all of our decisions rely on a kind of desire—and in fact even Morrissey's desire for an ideal love is a desire!

Wheeler's admonition “it's good to have something to live for you'll find” points towards a further conclusion. Not only is the desire for ideal love a desire like other desires—one perspective of many rather than a position of objectivity—is in fact a nihilistic desire, that derives, as our reading of the “Hand in Glove” single seems to show, from the values of truth, rigidity and the fiction of an austere mind that resides somewhere above a body that it controls—a nihilistic desire that gains power over us through its alignment with the forces of traditional morality. Only by recognizing that the impulse against the sexual and the frivolous is but one impulse among many and not the sole 'true' impulse, the only one proper to the 'mind', do we regain our innocence and freedom. And this is the sound of “Can't Be Sure”. Wheeler affirms the body and the impulses of the body; she frees herself from the barely concealed world-negation that appears to dominate Morrissey's values. “Though I can't be sure what I want anymore / It will come to me later...”. Even the uncertainty that accompanies Wheeler's freedom becomes a source of joy.

But what about love? It strangely appears that love has been regained. Morrissey wanted a love that was separate from the body. But having recognized, as Wheeler does on “Skin and Bones”, that we are only the body, we regain the body's ability to love—our own ability to love, and not an idealized love trapped by morality and chained to the denial of the world and of our own nature. The chorus of “Skin and Bones” oscillates between lamentation and exultation. At first it laments our fate, laments that we are limited by the body: “work and vanity wasted my time inside”. But as the chorus is repeated, Wheeler's cry “we're just flesh and blood / And nothing much more” becomes filled with the same strange joy that shoots through “Can't Be Sure”—a joy barely concealing the sharp pain that ultimately heightens the feeling of exultation.

But more important than this rejection of others’ criticism, especially as a response to Morrissey, is the rejection of the devaluation of her own hopes and desires that the phrase ‘skin and bone’ initially appears to imply. For the young Morrissey, ‘skin and bone’ could only refer to the desires of the flesh as distinguished from the desires of the mind or spirit, and to say that we are only skin and bone would be to say that the desires of the mind do not hold the privileged position we have assigned them, and can never bestow the kind of beauty and peace that should be the reward of those who dwell above the body. It would be tantamount to saying that this mind does not exist at all: the destruction of all meaningful values. Indeed, this was the possibility that confronted Morrissey, and of which he was certainly aware. “Does the body rule the mind or does the mind rule the body?” (“Still Ill”); “No heavenly choir / Not for me and not for you” (“Jeane”); “You may sleep, but you will never dream” (the price of moral failure in “Suffer Little Children”). But for Wheeler, the collapse of the hierarchy dominated by the mind ultimately results in the reactivation of the desires previously suppressed by it—desires which were struggling for and toward life and not against it.

And now an essential point becomes clear: the moral imperative that guided Morrissey was in fact incapable of generating an impulse toward life with sufficient power to replace that of the desires it suppressed; that is, it was only capable of limiting the forces that could actively affirm life, and not of doing so itself. This, and not simply loneliness, is the source of Morrissey’s depression. Recall his search for “people who are young and alive”—contrasted, obviously, with himself—in “There is a Light That Never Goes Out”, as well as the earlier lines “vivid and in your prime / You will leave me behind” (“These Things Take Time”).

In his relentless and perceptive criticism of desires of the body, Morrissey destroyed the possibility of bringing to prominence the ‘higher’ desires for which he so longed. For if love cannot be separated from the desire for sex and the desire to be together no matter with whom, then it is clear that love can only be fully regained when the other impulses are affirmed along with it, and that it is placed entirely out of reach when we seek the absolute suppression of those that seem to contradict it. Moreover, affirming the competing desires within the self is the only way to effect the unification of the self: engaging in this affirmation, we no longer look down on the body from a position we take to be higher, and thus turn against our own impulses—the very forces that constitute our being. This unification, however, does not eliminate the differences and disagreements of the competing desires. Only when we affirm them even in their contradictions are we able to make any of them active; only when we affirm their multiplicity are we able to discover our unity.

If you're unconvinced by my argument, or by the claim that Wheeler's declaration in ‘Skin and Bone’ once again makes love available, you may want to listen once more to the incredible 'My Finest Hours'. With its achingly beautiful chorus and unexpected but perfect coda, it shows the heart of Reading, Writing, and Arithmetic with both its words and its music—which provide their own argument.

and I keep hoping
that you are the same as me
and I'll send you letters
and come to your house for tea
we are who we are
and what do the others know...

But we’ve oversimplified things. And oversimplified Morrissey, whose complex position would develop subtly as his career progressed, in order to put the Sundays into clearer relief. As noted in passing, the two sides of the “Hand in Glove” single, though similar, are not identical. While the straightforward B-side fits into the argument relatively neatly, the A-side—one of the least understood Smiths songs—is more difficult, and the Sundays' response less obvious. Here Morrissey's clear vision becomes important, and pushes us to make finer distinctions. Indeed, it may be that Morrissey, at this point in his career, failed to recognize the true nature of desire; or it may be that he was simply unable to escape the grip of a morality that even he did not have faith in. But all this doesn’t fully respond to “Hand in Glove”, nor does it shake the feeling that something really is wrong with the love the song depicts—especially for those who have unwittingly found themselves in the situation Morrissey describes.

What distinguishes the couple in “My Finest Hours” from that of “Hand in Glove”? Even leaving the question of authenticity aside, it’s evident that the two loves differ profoundly in origin: for the pair from “Hand in Glove”, 'love' is the product of a deep poverty, of a despair in which even the identity of the beloved becomes meaningless. But the mad beauty of Wheeler's love arises from an overabundance of life that spills over in the coda of “My Finest Hours”: ecstatic, gentle and overwhelming at the same time. The former 'love' is not the “reason to live for” that Wheeler spoke of, but the result of a despair that gives us a reason to not live; the latter is quite the reverse. If the former is the product of a pure negation, the latter is affirmation itself. And this, the affirmation of the body, is the Sundays’ response to the problems Morrissey posed. “You're, you're, you're too young...”, Wheeler sings: in the conclusion of “My Finest Hours”, the early morning sun filtered and refracted into white-gold curves, with none of its freshness lost.

By: John Polewach
2004-08-17

― the bellefox, Tuesday, 17 August 2004 15:17 (8 years ago) Permalink

This'll take a while to digest but dang, good stuff.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 17 August 2004 15:20 (8 years ago) Permalink

I've only scanned it, but it certainly looks hilarious.

― Alba (Alba), Tuesday, 17 August 2004 15:32 (8 years ago) Permalink

The Sundays' debut album was better than the Smiths' debut album.

― righteousmaelstrom, Tuesday, 17 August 2004 15:42 (8 years ago) Permalink

For if love cannot be separated from the desire for sex and the desire to be together no matter with whom, then it is clear that love can only be fully regained when the other impulses are affirmed along with it, and that it is placed entirely out of reach when we seek the absolute suppression of those that seem to contradict it.

i got stuck on this sentence for about five minutes.

― lauren (laurenp), Tuesday, 17 August 2004 16:17 (8 years ago) Permalink

I have a feeling that John Polewach is a very ...odd man.

― Alba (Alba), Tuesday, 17 August 2004 16:18 (8 years ago) Permalink

It appears much of the review's thesis hinges on the idea that the Sundays debut was written as a response to the Smiths' debut release some six years prior and that's just not true.

While it's fine to make an exercise out of "connecting the dots" of each album's themes, I was hoping that the review was going to be a reevaluation of the album, not a simple compare and contrast.

I give the essay a C-.

― righteousmaelstrom, Tuesday, 17 August 2004 16:27 (8 years ago) Permalink

I hope I'm not being offensive or frivolous in saying that it reminds me very much of the writing of some people with Asperger's Syndrome.

― Alba (Alba), Tuesday, 17 August 2004 16:52 (8 years ago) Permalink

The Sundays' debut album was better than the Smiths' debut album.

-- righteousmaelstrom (righteousmaelstro...), August 17th, 2004 2:42 AM. (later)

the sundays' debut is better than *all* of the smiths albums, and by a considerable margin.

― purple patch (electricsound), Tuesday, 17 August 2004 22:04 (8 years ago) Permalink

uh, dunno if I'd go that far... Queen is Dead sounds way less precious to me. Pretentious perhaps.

I've just been thinking lately that the Smiths' albums as a whole are not that good. They lack a cohesiveness that you see in strong albums from other groups. Fact is, they were a superlative singles band.

(xpost) I had to look up Asperger's Syndrome in my medical dictionary and I'm still not grasping that assertion.

― righteousmaelstrom, Tuesday, 17 August 2004 22:26 (8 years ago) Permalink

complete piece spoiled somewhat by repeated use of "My Finest Hours".

― koogs (koogs), Wednesday, 18 August 2004 11:43 (8 years ago) Permalink

Koogs has found the pound.

― the bellefox, Friday, 20 August 2004 17:28 (8 years ago) Permalink

(I can't quite read it, it feels too much like a weird mailing-list post by a 17-year-old from Norway, or something. I'm going to need a comfortable chair and a seriously clear mind for this.)

― nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 20 August 2004 17:46 (8 years ago) Permalink

Age: Seventeen
Home Country: Norway
Favorite Things: The Smiths, Ibsen, Alain de Botton
Goals: I will to one day study the Library Science

― nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 20 August 2004 17:48 (8 years ago) Permalink

I am liking of the last line?

― the bellefox, Friday, 20 August 2004 17:50 (8 years ago) Permalink

Once I saw that the article was about the "themes" in The Sundays/The Smiths, I stopped reading.

― jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 20 August 2004 17:50 (8 years ago) Permalink

The main difference between first-Smiths and first-Sundays is that no matter how much people say that Morrissey lyrics were always about everyday-English-life, they had the same sense of constructed drama that other rock bands had—just with a more interesting and realistic set of touchstones than most. Whereas the first Sundays album, at least, is sort of defiantly mundane, and tends to make the most rote aspects of twenty-something existence seem dignified and interesting. The whole album is like some sort of Woolf parody where a woman sits in her living room reading a book and thinking of the same things everyone does: being lazy, being bored, things done as children, eventless seaside vacations, not even having relationships with people but just generally pondering them. (David + Harriet = most charmingly sexless indie couple ever! They probably just get up and make breakfast and water plants and read the paper together, then tea, nap, “Harriet, how are you enjoying that book?” “Oh, David, it’s lovely, did you let the cat in?” “Yes, let’s listen to De La Soul now.” Even the Mates of State seem more torrid, man.) And when you’re between the ages of 12 and 18 and don’t particularly know how to party and quite like just sitting around and drinking coffee, that particular sort of glamorizing of normal-life is incredibly potent and reassuring. First Sundays-album = well, if all goes well, that’ll be me. First Smiths-album = yeah right, like my life is that interesting.

― nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 20 August 2004 18:08 (8 years ago) Permalink

I love the Sundays!

― 57 7th (calstars), Friday, 20 August 2004 18:17 (8 years ago) Permalink

I mean, here's the track-by-track, Smiths on the left, Sundays on the right:

1. sordid loss-of-innocence sex / "i threw up on that dress"
2. rivalry / "sometimes i think about other people"
3. sordid loss-of-innocence sex / "i'm not really sure what i'll major in"
4. sordid loss-of-innocence sex / "i can be witty, though"
5. defensive fear of child-death / "teehee what if i did stuff?"
6. gagging for sordid loss-of-innocence sex / "i think i'll hide in the bathroom instead"
7. but sordid loss-of-innocence sex won't help / "what if i had lots of cash?"
8. tragic sun-on-behinds love / "remember when i kicked that kid?"
9. oh who cares about anything / "hey look, a pound!"
10. i can't relate to people / "i'm sad about the lone ranger or something"
11. child murders / [no track]

― nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 20 August 2004 18:26 (8 years ago) Permalink

i owned the first sundays lp on cassette back in my prehistoric days. it disappeared with most of my cassettes at some point. i think i've completely forgotten what it sounds like. i look forward to rediscovering it. i very very vaguely remember hearing "here's where the story ends" on wxrt and liking it enough to order the tape from columbia house.

though i wonder, given nabisco's explanation of their appeal, whether it would reach me in my old age.

― amateur!!st, Friday, 20 August 2004 18:32 (8 years ago) Permalink

It might, Amateurist. It'll be like the skinny girl in the apartment next door is singing to herself. Except she's English, and came to Chicago for grad school. And she left her cardigan down at the cafe yesterday, maybe if you stopped by to return it she'd ask you in for tea...

― nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 20 August 2004 18:34 (8 years ago) Permalink

:-0

― amateur!!!st, Friday, 20 August 2004 18:37 (8 years ago) Permalink

It is the best record of the 1990s.

― the pinefox, Friday, 20 August 2004 18:45 (8 years ago) Permalink

(Incidentally I am going to have to start working on a children's book where young-Morrissey goes to the shore and winds up in a dingy seaside hotel having an emotionally scarring pseudo-sexual encounter with a tart straight out of Brighton Rock. Then the young Sundays come along and walk on the beach for a few minutes and go "It's a bit humid out here, let's go back in and have tapas.")

― nabiscothingy, Friday, 20 August 2004 18:52 (8 years ago) Permalink

Nabisco, you're fucking hilarious. You should have written that article! It's a hell of a lot better and more insightful.

5. defensive fear of child-death / "teehee what if i did stuff?"

Priceless!

― righteousmaelstrom, Friday, 20 August 2004 18:57 (8 years ago) Permalink

I don't wholly agree with your description of them.

Mainly, I think that you neglect the romanticism.

― the bellefox, Friday, 20 August 2004 18:57 (8 years ago) Permalink

I think it's a romanticism of mundanity, though -- and that's what's so appealing about it. Most pop groups romanticize mundanity by inflating it, giving it characteristics it doesn't actually have; the Sundays album romanticizes mundanity just by giving it space to speak, and attention, and the same sweeps and drama as anything else. It's still constructed, in its way -- hardly anyone's personal mundanity is quite as precious and dreamy as theirs (except the Clientele's, natch) -- but it's mundanity nonetheless.

Big caveat: my sense of this subject matter as "mundane" may have to do with my growing up (and loving the Sundays) mostly in the same general sort of quiet-suburban landscape they're always said to conjure. The everyday is a relative thing.

― nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 20 August 2004 19:03 (8 years ago) Permalink

I think it's this romanticism of the mundane that really attracted me to them (besides sounding like the Smiths!) That is, being able identify with the situations posed in the lyrics.

Love in an elevator? Never happened to me.

Sleeping in a chair? Happened quite often.

― righteousmaelstrom, Friday, 20 August 2004 19:09 (8 years ago) Permalink

(And admittedly, Piney, I'm posting from a self-conscious adult hindsight, where some of the Sundays' stuff seems charmingly precious; when I was a teenager, I swooned to this stuff in a way that had, yes, a lot more to do with romance than with the everyday. That's part of what I was originally trying to get at, though. For a teenager, the swoony-romance of the Sundays seemed somehow attainable, a dreamy little world that was still made of things that were familiar and graspable. I hate to do the whole thing where the Sundays come out sounding like librarians and wallflowers, but the album did offer up a world-of-romance that seemed open to people with that particular streak in them. At thirteen you imagine that you really might grow up and get lucky and live in some charming Sundays-world; possibly at twenty-seven you realize you lived in more of a Sundays-world when you were thirteen than you ever have since. For that, and for Harriet's charmingly-unstylish pleated jeans, I thank them.)

― nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 20 August 2004 19:16 (8 years ago) Permalink

pleated jeans?

― amateur!!!st, Friday, 20 August 2004 19:21 (8 years ago) Permalink

I can't find a picture. Yes, there were some pleated jeans involved, possibly with an elastic waist. Also overalls. Here's the classic photo where Harriet's head appears to weight six times as much as her body:

― nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 20 August 2004 19:25 (8 years ago) Permalink

That's a rather unfortunate pose.

― righteousmaelstrom, Friday, 20 August 2004 19:31 (8 years ago) Permalink

I don't think I know what you mean about 'pleated'.

But I agree with you more now that you have admitted the romanticism of the mundane.

Yet, 'mundane' is a very unromantic word, and perhaps not the right one.

I think the Clientele a red herring here. I don't think they are about the mundane - more about a certain vocabulary. I think I, let alone the Sundays, am more about the mundane (and associated romance) than they are. But I only know their first LP.

― the bellefox, Friday, 20 August 2004 19:32 (8 years ago) Permalink

pleated pants:

unpleated pants:

― amateur!!!st, Friday, 20 August 2004 19:40 (8 years ago) Permalink

sorry that post got kind of f'ed up.

― amateur!!st, Friday, 20 August 2004 19:40 (8 years ago) Permalink

I got believe there is no mention of The Smiths "Cemetary Gates" on this thread. I like the Sundays very much, but almost all their music sounds like a direct variation of that song.

― Spencer Chow (spencermfi), Friday, 20 August 2004 19:50 (8 years ago) Permalink

The first album where acoustics are used is reminiscent of 'Cemetery Gates,' but the subsequent albums not so much.

I was listening recently to the first album and Gavurin's guitar work actually reminds me of Peter Buck's earlier style. Also, the last part of 'Hideous Towns' could have been written by the Wedding Present.

― righteousmaelstrom, Friday, 20 August 2004 19:58 (8 years ago) Permalink

first line of my post should be "I can't believe..."

― Spencer Chow (spencermfi), Friday, 20 August 2004 20:01 (8 years ago) Permalink

Early Peter Buck is a lot easier to mimic than Gavurin. It's just play arpeggios with cool classic-pop rhythms (rhythms of notes, I mean - something I used to get a kick out of, and still would if I thought about it). Gavurin is surely a different cup of tea: apart from all the acoustic rhythm guitar, he doesn't play many continuous arpeggios and riffs all the way through a song. He tends more to diverse effects, especially the one where you can hear shapes sliding up and down the neck in a slightly perverse fashion.

― the bellefox, Friday, 20 August 2004 20:29 (8 years ago) Permalink

As I said, I agreed more with nabisco's more recent posts; just something bugged me in the ones before that. Something about his description of domestic happiness was wrong, I think: watering the plants, feeding the cat, and above all the really wrong note - the tapas.

I can't and don't speak about the couple's actual relationship - that may be as nabisco describes. But the *records* aren't like that. And it was odd how nabisco kept going back to 'one day my life could be like that', as if they were a description of mature life or wedded bliss. I think they are not - I think they are a description of young, drifting life, which is where the Smiths comparison comes in again. I think that if the records really made one feel 'one day my life could be like that', it would be to feel: 'one day my life could be as romantic as that'.

― the bellefox, Friday, 20 August 2004 20:35 (8 years ago) Permalink

I think I think of "young drifting life" as sort of mundane and/or par for the course, and that in itself does feel glamorously mature, when you're a teenager. Tapas were more of a D+H-with-child joke; when really immersed in that first album, it's hard to imagine them consuming much more than hot water and light pastries. And I don't imagine their actual-lives having anything like the slim-British-novel dreaminess of that particular record. ("Novelistic" -- maybe it's just my joke above, but something about the album is reminding me of like de Botton's The Romantic Movement right now. Which I won't go into.)

There are Cocteau comparisons to be discussed too, I think, not in the traditional vocal sense but in the sense of how "likely" their respective worlds seem.

― nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 20 August 2004 20:45 (8 years ago) Permalink

perhaps the difference is degree of identification, or what people mean by subject vs. object, but i'm not sure of that. how does it feel to be someone about whom a romantic story could be told? i think it must take a lot of grace to feel some pain but, from another point of view, to see it muted and still and described as happiness because of its effect.

― youn, Friday, 20 August 2004 20:48 (8 years ago) Permalink

sp: "'cemetry'"

― the wildefox, Friday, 20 August 2004 20:48 (8 years ago) Permalink

Nabisco and Pinefox: Did you guys time-travel from old-ILM for this thread?

― jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 20 August 2004 20:51 (8 years ago) Permalink

Well, it *is* August 2002, right?

ilx was far better a year ago: only 4 years since the last Sundays LP.

― the timefox, Friday, 20 August 2004 20:54 (8 years ago) Permalink

I find the continuing support for Harriet's hair, and the Sundays generally, I find somewhat bemusing.

N., this is a bad line that illustrates your weakness.

― the bellefox, Friday, 20 August 2004 20:57 (8 years ago) Permalink

Gavurin...doesn't play many continuous arpeggios and riffs all the way through a song. He tends more to diverse effects, especially the one where you can hear shapes sliding up and down the neck in a slightly perverse fashion.
-- the bellefox (pinefo...), August 20th, 2004.

No, but neither did Buck. I'm sure of it and you're going to make me have to drag out my copies of 'Murmur' and 'Reckoning' and listen to them, aren't you?

I'm also puzzled by what you mean about "...shapes sliding up and down the neck in a slightly perverse fashion." Are you talking about the beginning of the album where you hear the slide on the guitar that then kicks into the riff?

― righteousmaelstrom, Friday, 20 August 2004 21:02 (8 years ago) Permalink

I don't think that opening sound is a guitar.

I have often heard things that sounded exactly like it, but they were never guitars.

re. Buck, my memory is of his draping every other song in a pattern of notes off the top 3 strings, in certain very clear and indeed predictable patterns. Which I like, a lot. I have always been a tad vexed at the thought that I may have picked up more from him than those - Gavurin included, I guess - I consider my real heroes.

Possible example of what I mean: 'I Believe'. That absent-minded picking-at-a-G stuff is barely to be found on the Sundays' records.

― the bellefox, Friday, 20 August 2004 21:24 (8 years ago) Permalink

Is the weakness more in the bemusement or the mistake with the two "I finds"?

― Alba (Alba), Friday, 20 August 2004 22:10 (8 years ago) Permalink

I think the bemusement is lamentable, but it's the mistake that allows me a... a... a clear shot at it.

― the bellefox, Friday, 20 August 2004 22:44 (8 years ago) Permalink

Bellefox spot-on: Buck plays open chords and arpeggiates them; Gavurin likes to move open shapes up and down the fretboard and follow the slides ("My Finest Hour" is pretty much solely that). Buck also pick nearly-every 8th note, whereas Gavurin is a lot more pick-slide-pause, etc. PLEASE PRETEND I POSTED THIS WHEN I WAS 15 THANK YOU.

― nabiscothingy, Saturday, 21 August 2004 03:38 (8 years ago) Permalink

"Please pretend I posted this when I was 15"? Oh, puh-leeze.

Nabisco if you were this insightful as a guitarist when you were 15, then you're a better guitarist than I will ever be (which is quite probably true!)

Though I still think that slide at the beginning of 'Skin & Bones' is a guitar: it sounds like a descending slide on one string moving to two strings. It sounds like there's a pitchshifter or harmonizer in there too.

Can we all agree on one thing though? It's a telecaster Gavurin is playing. Y'all are not going to fight me on this are ya?

― righteousmaelstrom, Saturday, 21 August 2004 03:50 (8 years ago) Permalink

No, it's just that age fifteen was the last time I was enthusiastic about differentiating the arpeggiating style of Buck vs. Gavurin.

― nabiscothingy, Saturday, 21 August 2004 03:54 (8 years ago) Permalink

Uh, dood, at fifteen I was just happy to discover that Motley Crues' 'Looks That Kill' was in the key of A.

― righteousmaelstrom, Saturday, 21 August 2004 04:23 (8 years ago) Permalink

And just one more thing: Why has all of talk shifted towards RW&A? I pulled all of my Sundays albums to listen to earlier this week, but I couldn't find 'Blind.' The thing I want to hear from some of the folk posting here now is what they think of Static & Silence? Besides 'Summertime' and 'Cry' it's pretty stinky.

― righteousmaelstrom, Saturday, 21 August 2004 04:37 (8 years ago) Permalink

unfortunately i think it's a strat, not a tele, if my memory of the "can't be sure" video is accurate..

― purple patch (electricsound), Saturday, 21 August 2004 06:16 (8 years ago) Permalink

(god i hate strats)

― purple patch (electricsound), Saturday, 21 August 2004 06:17 (8 years ago) Permalink

It's nice to be spot on, but unfortunate that I am implicated in teenage folly. Or is it?

I don't really know what Nabisco means by '8th note'. I think he is saying that Buck plays a lot of notes, but I don't know what the number signifies.

I don't know the last items, but in any case I still don't get how you hear it as an axe. It sounds like a found everyday sound to me. But which sound?

Can we all agree on one thing though? It's a telecaster Gavurin is playing. Y'all are not going to fight me on this are ya?

How can you tell?

― the bellefox, Sunday, 22 August 2004 10:47 (8 years ago) Permalink

Uh, because the Telecaster has a distinctive tone, easily identified by those who know about such things.

That Polewach essay is bloody awful. A classic example of a liberal arts education creating a monster.

― Palomino (Palomino), Sunday, 22 August 2004 10:52 (8 years ago) Permalink

What does the tone sound like?

It seems that I don't know about such things.

― the bellefox, Sunday, 22 August 2004 10:58 (8 years ago) Permalink

4 months pass...

I ended up digging out "Reading, Writing..." yesterday, because it was driving me crazy trying to figure out exactly what GURL the bloke from Delays sounds like.

Well, when he goes "low" (snort) he sounds like Stevie Nicks!

Yeah, I finally heard the Sundays this year by accident from a radio on Primrose Hill. Then I heard them in a pharmacy in Dupont Circle. Then I heard them in my car on Chapman Highway, and I skreeeeed over to buy the damn cd. They followed me home!

― roxymuzak (roxymuzak), Thursday, 30 December 2004 01:49 (8 years ago) Permalink

2 months pass...

So how did I forget how well Gavurin pulls off some hero-rock riffs on Blind without ever sounding like a Guitar Center-obsessed goof (see "Goodbye" towards the end and elsewhere).

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 24 March 2005 19:22 (8 years ago) Permalink

You forgot because Harriet is lulling us to sleep? ;)

Seriously, I prefer "R & R & A" – when their shtick was fresher – to Blind.

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Thursday, 24 March 2005 19:45 (8 years ago) Permalink

I must re-listen to Blind sometime...

"A safe, cosy, misty-eyed 'Englishness' that would warm the heart of John Major but leaves me cold." - stevo

I'm not sure I understand these sort of sentiments about RW&A. All that aforementioned kicking of boys until they cry, being sick on one's dress, having thrown up no doubt due to the hideousness of the town, and seemingly just preferring to flee to the lavatory... If that's English for 'cosy' I'll be careful not to visit.

And the aforementioned dissonance and often odd rhythmic structure throughout has almost nothing in common with the supposed strummy whimsy typically ascribed to it.

― Nag! Nag! Nag! (Nag! Nag! Nag!), Friday, 25 March 2005 02:23 (8 years ago) Permalink

Oh God...why don't I have any albums of theirs? I've heard the entirety of Reading, Writing, and Arithmetic and plenty of Blind and Static & Silence and they make my heart ache cathartically. I've also got this b-side of theirs on a CD-R...I think it's called "Nothing Sweet" and it's on the single for "Summertime" and it's soooo ridiculously cute.

"Here's Where the Story Ends" pops up in the weirdest places...I heard it in a Winn-Dixie in Panama City...and in Western Steer steakhouse, which is actually in the same shopping centre as that Winn-Dixie.

― What we want? Sex with T.V. stars! What you want? Ian Riese-Moraine! (Eastern Ma, Friday, 25 March 2005 02:47 (8 years ago) Permalink

1 month passes...

my favourite two albums are still readingwritingetc. and static and silence.

i never really got into blind too much, i think i've only ever listened to it less than 10 times the whole way through in my life. i don't really know why, i imagine if i listen to it more, and read the lyrics, i'd like it a lot more.

maybe it's something as superficial as her vocals being too quiet in most songs on Blind, and i always have trouble with songs like that. i like guitars and drums and stuff but i prefer to listen to the singing (and pick out the guitar from the background when i choose to).

― ken c (ken c), Saturday, 21 May 2005 22:25 (8 years ago) Permalink

"'Here's Where the Story Ends' pops up in the weirdest places...I heard it in a Winn-Dixie in Panama City...and in Western Steer steakhouse, which is actually in the same shopping centre as that Winn-Dixie."

Maybe this is where they invested their money.

― Rickey Wright (Rrrickey), Saturday, 21 May 2005 22:30 (8 years ago) Permalink

1 month passes...

Can I revive this just to say how much I still love them after all these years. I listened to the first two albums back-to-back before work today and was still in awe.

This thread needs a pic:

― PappaWheelie (PappaWheelie), Thursday, 23 June 2005 17:05 (7 years ago) Permalink

Still love the first album.

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Thursday, 23 June 2005 17:10 (7 years ago) Permalink

LIstened to Reading, Writing... the other day, actually, and it really took me back to those sepia-toned early 90's.

Are they still a going concern? Not very prolific if so.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Thursday, 23 June 2005 17:13 (7 years ago) Permalink

I'm guessing that whole "we're taking time off for our child" thing may still reign...or nobody cares about that sound anymore, and they know it.

― PappaWheelie (PappaWheelie), Thursday, 23 June 2005 17:17 (7 years ago) Permalink

― kickitcricket (kickitcricket), Thursday, 23 June 2005 17:20 (7 years ago) Permalink

Yeeps.

First album really still is just perfectly right.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 23 June 2005 17:31 (7 years ago) Permalink

I never was able to see them live....:( I hope they do SOMETHING again - even if it's just a small "comeback" tour.

― kickitcricket (kickitcricket), Thursday, 23 June 2005 17:35 (7 years ago) Permalink

2 months pass...

Listening to "Summertime" by them right now, and it's so gorgeous I could weep.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Thursday, 22 September 2005 16:46 (7 years ago) Permalink

1 month passes...

Oh true love. My Sundays story: I've been in Greece for weeks, moving from one hotel to another without any stereo or CDs or any way to play music, and we're way up north in Thessaloniki where things are less err westernized so all we hear is wailing, grating bouzouki music everywhere we go. One night, out for a drink, we wander into a fancyish cocktail bar and I quickly realize that "Skin & Bones" is playing and I feel like the universe has arranged a treat just for me. Of course when they realize we're all Americans they change to some awful top 40 Celine Dion-style madness and I need to leave quickly so as not to break the enchantment; still, it was very nice.

― Laurel, Friday, 11 November 2005 21:06 (7 years ago) Permalink

Reading, Writing and Arithmetic, to my ears, sounded like Cocteau Twins without Robin Guthrie's dreamy guitarscapes, but in their place something ordinary. Perhaps having listened to the Cocteaus before having heard of them ruined them for me.

― acb (acb), Friday, 11 November 2005 22:24 (7 years ago) Permalink

but harriet wheeler has loads more charm than liz fraser. i love the cocteau twins but the effects are almost completely opposite. the sundays as the everyday hero, the cocteau twins as the escapist flirt.

― keyth (keyth), Saturday, 12 November 2005 03:12 (7 years ago) Permalink

classic.

just casting my vote.

― andy dale (andy dale), Saturday, 12 November 2005 08:02 (7 years ago) Permalink

absolutely classsic debut album. i still think if i'd heard COCTEAU TWINS first it might not have had the impact but still. totally the soundtrack to my firsl love aged 16. i was never a john peel fan as such, so them topping the festive 50 in 89 past me by. no i heard them first on the phillip schofield thuesday night radio 1 show. about as uncool as it gets you'd think, but that show also introduced me to THE THE so go as they say, figure.

― piscesboy, Saturday, 12 November 2005 18:49 (7 years ago) Permalink

I love R,W&A and Blind. Another good band in the way of The Sundays are The Innocence Mission

― antonio, Sunday, 13 November 2005 12:40 (7 years ago) Permalink

maybe another album...!?

http://www.phpbbforfree.com/forums/thesundays-about13.html

doubtful, though.

― andy dale (andy dale), Monday, 14 November 2005 12:04 (7 years ago) Permalink

Mediocre Sundays (read: most of Static & Silence, and probably anything else they might put out this late in the game) is still a little slice of heaven to my ears, for purely personal and mostly indistinct reasons. Wheeler and Gavurin are just about the most perfectly matched pair in musical history, IMH(and probably not terribly widely-shared)O.

So yeah: very classic, and I'd love to hear another album.

― Deric W. Haircare (Deric W. Haircare), Monday, 14 November 2005 18:41 (7 years ago) Permalink

Any Harriet Wheeler sightings? She looks like this, but add a decade and 2 kids. ;)

― Dave M., Tuesday, 15 November 2005 21:16 (7 years ago) Permalink

I didn't know the picture was that big. It's filling up my whole screen! Could one of the moderators take it down. Thank you.

― Dave M., Tuesday, 15 November 2005 21:26 (7 years ago) Permalink

2 months pass...

i can't sleep without listening to that moon landing song these days

― ken c (ken c), Thursday, 19 January 2006 18:17 (7 years ago) Permalink

1 year passes...

the sundays are incredible.

the coda, the last four bars, of "hideous towns", are beyond music. they are magic.

the sundays are magic. too good to be true. incredible, etc., etc.

― andi, Saturday, 28 July 2007 22:41 (5 years ago) Permalink

Oh yes, "Hideous Towns's" ending is great.

― Cunga, Saturday, 28 July 2007 22:43 (5 years ago) Permalink

Yes.

― Bimble, Saturday, 28 July 2007 22:54 (5 years ago) Permalink

"Hideous Towns" is one of the most perfect songs ever.

― Tim F, Sunday, 29 July 2007 00:41 (5 years ago) Permalink

SO GOOD

― Surmounter, Sunday, 29 July 2007 00:52 (5 years ago) Permalink

I listen to my "Goodbye" b/w "Wild Horses" single a lot.

― wanko ergo sum, Sunday, 29 July 2007 00:55 (5 years ago) Permalink

i love the five of you.

― andi, Sunday, 29 July 2007 01:08 (5 years ago) Permalink

I just love Harriet's lyrics so much - "I joined the army/but it drove me barmy" - who else could sing that so earnestly????

― Tim F, Sunday, 29 July 2007 01:35 (5 years ago) Permalink

Someone who's in Iraq right now? oh wait...

Sorry if this sounds snooty, it's not meant to and I wasn't trying to get political on anyone's ass either. I'm going to pull out Reading, Writing & Arithmetic right now. It's shine has dimmed over time somewhat, but I think a trip down memory lane with it can't be bad.

― Bimble, Sunday, 29 July 2007 01:57 (5 years ago) Permalink

Also this will sound funny but it always reminds me of the chemistry lab I was in in college. I remember playing it on my walkman in that chemistry lab. It was absolutely stunning, couldn't get the songs out of my head.

― Bimble, Sunday, 29 July 2007 02:01 (5 years ago) Permalink

>I listen to my "Goodbye" b/w "Wild Horses" single a lot

I went through a period last year of listening to Goodbye on repeat play - it would come round on shuffle and then I'd have to hear it several times in a row - by which I mean it's just heartbreakingly fantastic. The final section where Gavurin cuts completely loose and Harriet comes back in with "oh as the heavens shudder baby, I belong to you" makes this into pretty much the best single of the 1990s.

So erm, classic!

― Bill A, Sunday, 29 July 2007 15:24 (5 years ago) Permalink

omg i'm breakin out the cassettes!

i used to imitate professional ice skaters in my basement on roller skates listening to the sundays - ah the life!

― Surmounter, Sunday, 29 July 2007 15:32 (5 years ago) Permalink

OTMFM

― stephen, Sunday, 29 July 2007 16:51 (5 years ago) Permalink

That comparison always strikes me as a bit odd actually. Where is the commonality? Not in the guitars, the singing, the lyrics, the song structures... May as well say "The Sundays, to my ears, sounded like The Bad Seeds without Nick Cave's unholy raving, but in their place something ordinary..."

Better comparison would be The Smiths crossed with Sugarcubes' "Birthday", surely.

― Tim F, Sunday, 29 July 2007 22:32 (5 years ago) Permalink

nah, i get the comparison. if liz sang clearly around the time of heaven or las vegas, it'd be a pretty similar thing, i think.

and, what acb said and stephen quoted, i'm about to say this as a sundays obsessive (have their entire discography and about 10 bootlegs), that might be about right. but, that might also be part of what makes them great. but, hm, that's one to chew on.

― andi, Sunday, 29 July 2007 22:38 (5 years ago) Permalink

i always loved the Sundays much more than the Cocteau Twins. the performance worked better for me, and i was happy to not have the guitarscapes on Reading, Writing and Arithmetic. easily a favorite album from my youth.

― Surmounter, Sunday, 29 July 2007 23:43 (5 years ago) Permalink

i heard sundays before the cocteaus, by the way. if that might matter.

― andi, Monday, 30 July 2007 00:09 (5 years ago) Permalink

i think the less lush design of Reading Writing and Arithmetic (sans guitarscapes) made it feel less cluttered and more pure to me. i liked that it wasn't doused in ambient guitar.

― Surmounter, Monday, 30 July 2007 00:42 (5 years ago) Permalink

my post before my last is silly. replace 'heaven or las vegas' with 'four-calendar', even though the syllables were clearer then, too.

― andi, Monday, 30 July 2007 00:47 (5 years ago) Permalink

this needs remastering!

and where can u get a cd-quality copy of DON'T TELL YOUR MOTHER in this day and age.

― pisces, Monday, 30 July 2007 13:19 (5 years ago) Permalink

You can get it in most any dollar bin on the DGC Rarities volume 1 cd.

― svend, Monday, 30 July 2007 13:31 (5 years ago) Permalink

Or on Amazon.com for one penny.

― svend, Monday, 30 July 2007 13:31 (5 years ago) Permalink

wow! DGC rarities eh? really? that's genuinely brilliant advice. great stuff thanks!

― pisces, Monday, 30 July 2007 21:33 (5 years ago) Permalink

hahaha, dgc rarities is CLASSIC! deserves it's own thread.

― andi, Monday, 30 July 2007 21:43 (5 years ago) Permalink

The DGC Rarities disc (volume one-and-only) is kind of great, actually! I found my copy a couple years ago and was surprised by how much fun it was to listen to. Teenage Fanclub, what might be Weezer's best song, a good That Dog track, St. Johnny sounding more like Dinosaur Jr than ever, a great weird Sloan thing, the only Hole song I've ever really liked ... I seem to remember even liking the CELL track on this.

― nabisco, Monday, 30 July 2007 21:46 (5 years ago) Permalink

Wait, I must have found a NEW copy, as I'm pretty sure I had this on TAPE back in the day?

― nabisco, Monday, 30 July 2007 21:47 (5 years ago) Permalink

Beck's maybe best song ever, "Bogusflow"

― wanko ergo sum, Monday, 30 July 2007 22:02 (5 years ago) Permalink

um. yeah. i wasn't kidding about fucking dgc rarities.

― andi, Monday, 30 July 2007 22:50 (5 years ago) Permalink

5 months pass...

My January band for the last few years.

― roxymuzak, Saturday, 5 January 2008 02:12 (5 years ago) Permalink

Good choice. :-)

― Ned Raggett, Saturday, 5 January 2008 02:19 (5 years ago) Permalink

I'm in a "I Kicked a Boy" kind of mood.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Saturday, 5 January 2008 02:21 (5 years ago) Permalink

Haha, I was born in that born.

― roxymuzak, Saturday, 5 January 2008 02:30 (5 years ago) Permalink

????

in that MOOD!

― roxymuzak, Saturday, 5 January 2008 02:30 (5 years ago) Permalink

You were born twice. A special birth.

― Ned Raggett, Saturday, 5 January 2008 02:38 (5 years ago) Permalink

The rebirth of slick, like my gangsta stroll.

― roxymuzak, Saturday, 5 January 2008 02:44 (5 years ago) Permalink

I Kicked A Boy!!!! gooood call

― Surmounter, Saturday, 5 January 2008 03:25 (5 years ago) Permalink

that album = this weather to the t

― Surmounter, Saturday, 5 January 2008 03:25 (5 years ago) Permalink

Yes, "I Kicked A Boy" is a damn good call! I tend to forget about that one. I should ~~dig out that cassette~~ download...

― Bimble, Saturday, 5 January 2008 05:11 (5 years ago) Permalink

I Kicked a Boy is easily in the favorite three songs on the debut.

― Johnny Fever, Saturday, 5 January 2008 05:13 (5 years ago) Permalink

I especially love "My Finest Hour" (esp. the end, SHIIIIT!) and "Can't Be Sure".

― roxymuzak, Saturday, 5 January 2008 05:17 (5 years ago) Permalink

Classic, i.e., I liked them and have since forgotten all about them.

― M.V., Saturday, 5 January 2008 13:06 (5 years ago) Permalink

xcept of course I Kissed A Girl is like echoing in my brain whenever i think of I Kicked A Boy

― Surmounter, Saturday, 5 January 2008 14:07 (5 years ago) Permalink

Which song/artist is that, Surmounter? "I Kissed A Girl"?

― Bimble, Sunday, 6 January 2008 00:25 (5 years ago) Permalink

Jile Sobule.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Sunday, 6 January 2008 00:27 (5 years ago) Permalink

The first album was so good that i never listened to anything that followed - but even only on one-albums-worth of merit, classic.

That album somehow helped me mourn the passing of The Smiths in a comforting kind of way.

― christoff, Monday, 7 January 2008 18:27 (5 years ago) Permalink

Cortney Tidwell is surely the new Harriet Wheeler...

― henry s, Monday, 7 January 2008 18:52 (5 years ago) Permalink

Jill Sobule yeah. who i actually liked for a while. she's actually really not bad. but she's no The Sundays.

― Surmounter, Monday, 7 January 2008 18:58 (5 years ago) Permalink

Really wintry = "Joy."

Funnily enough, I think I first got hold of RW&A just after Christmas of my first year of high school -- I remember lots and lots of January listening to it. Like all-day, no-school, sitting in room listening to Sundays record over and over.

― nabisco, Monday, 7 January 2008 19:00 (5 years ago) Permalink

6 months pass...

I'm breathless about The Sundays. I'm serious.

― Bimble, Monday, 4 August 2008 03:16 (4 years ago) Permalink

i'm not buying it.

― s1ocki, Monday, 4 August 2008 03:20 (4 years ago) Permalink

oh well too bad for you

― Bimble, Monday, 4 August 2008 03:30 (4 years ago) Permalink

thats not new sundays or what? are they still around

― CaptainLorax, Monday, 4 August 2008 03:47 (4 years ago) Permalink

there is a young girl at the pharmacy in the grocery store who looks like harriet wheeler, grandmother hair and all.

― keythkeyth, Tuesday, 5 August 2008 00:30 (4 years ago) Permalink

they are rather breathless

― Surmounter, Tuesday, 5 August 2008 00:35 (4 years ago) Permalink

It's the last part of "My Finest Hour" you know it...the last fucking 45 seconds or whatever it is that they do there...totally divorced from the rest of the song, but you know...

And then they go into "Joy" and by god I want to know what the hell else you want out of an album than this one.

You know when I met Harriet Wheeler at the club, I remember asking her what they were into musically and she said "oh you know the Smiths, Cocteau Twins" you know just what you'd expect! She also mentioned Jimi Hendrix, believe it or not.

― Bimble Is Still More Goth Than You, Saturday, 9 August 2008 10:00 (4 years ago) Permalink

I Kicked A Boy, too.

― Bimble Is Still More Goth Than You, Saturday, 9 August 2008 10:02 (4 years ago) Permalink

The Rolling Stones!

― the pinefox, Saturday, 9 August 2008 12:31 (4 years ago) Permalink

Fucking YES! WILD HORSES!!!!!

― Bimble Is Still More Goth Than You, Saturday, 9 August 2008 12:31 (4 years ago) Permalink

Certainly the best version of that song I have ever heard; but then I don't really understand the general heated adoration of the Burritos' take. The delicate touches that the Sundays added, the low-slung and high-flying guitar riffs and her dreamy way of singing it, seem to me to clean up next to any other reading of t that song - indeed it must be the greatest Stones cover I have ever heard. Virtually the greatest COVER I have ever heard, full stop.

― the pinefox, Saturday, 9 August 2008 13:10 (4 years ago) Permalink

these records (the first one anyway) seriously need a remastering and some kind of deluxe treatment.

― akm, Saturday, 9 August 2008 14:21 (4 years ago) Permalink

Apart from the remastering, what would the deluxe treatment involve? I have 3Rs on first-month-or-so-of-release vinyl (as well as CD), Norwich HMV £5.99 sticker probably intact, which, though I haven't spun it in ages, is probably the most deluxe I can imagine it ever getting.

Mind you: I used to be really frustrated about the lack of a lyric sheet on, at least, the vinyl, and actually wrote to Rough Trade asking them for this (or anything else Sundays-related). A white envelope came through the door a few weeks later with the lyrics to the LP photocopied by someone in the office, nothing else, no note or acknowledgement as I recall. I was looking for that envelope the other day but goodness knows just where it is now.

― the pinefox, Saturday, 9 August 2008 15:27 (4 years ago) Permalink

The Sundays had b-sides (a few anyway), and I'm sure that if whoever was putting together a deluxe edition was feeling industrious that demos, alternate takes and non-album cuts could be located. I wonder what the demand would be like, though. Anyone who was a Sundays fan in 1990 still seems to be as big of a Sundays fan today, but there's definitely a drop-off point.

― Johnny Fever, Saturday, 9 August 2008 19:03 (4 years ago) Permalink

They released fewer extra B-side songs that almost any other band of comparable stature. Re. the first LP for instance, there is only one extra B-side: 'don't tell your mother' (which is tremendous). There were a couple of B-sides re. the 2nd LP: one is about 90 seconds long (and gorgeous), the other is a (gorgeous) cover. They did more for the 3rd LP, I think - but at least 2 or 4 of the B-sides from that era are indeed demos and alternate takes (of 'can't be sure' and 'you're not the only one i know').

― the pinefox, Saturday, 9 August 2008 22:28 (4 years ago) Permalink

I think I agree.

― Melissa W, Saturday, 9 August 2008 22:32 (4 years ago) Permalink

5 months pass...

My January band for the last few years.

― roxymuzak, Friday, January 4, 2008 9:12 PM (1 year ago) Bookmark

^^^^^^^^^^^^

― Ein kluges Äpfelchen (Eisbaer), Sunday, 1 February 2009 09:55 (4 years ago) Permalink

Yeah linger is an amazing song to hear at this time of year.

― Moka, Sunday, 1 February 2009 10:06 (4 years ago) Permalink

― This is ILXOR, we do what we like (Noodle Vague), Sunday, 1 February 2009 10:30 (4 years ago) Permalink

3 weeks pass...

Listening to STATIC & SILENCE for first time in years, actually, on spotify. It hasn't of course changed, but sounds fine.

― the pinefox, Wednesday, 25 February 2009 08:41 (4 years ago) Permalink

'She' probably still the highlight, the equal of most of the 2nd LP, say.

Dear me, my opinions seem never to change, over however many years.

I like the clanking piano at 3:20 of track 5 also.

― the pinefox, Wednesday, 25 February 2009 08:42 (4 years ago) Permalink

'Your Eyes' is OK, lively and nimble, a bit different from other Sundays. I've only just noticed, nearly 12 years on, the line about 'I think I'm off to Japan', accompanied by 'Japanese' crashing gong.

― the pinefox, Wednesday, 25 February 2009 08:56 (4 years ago) Permalink

listening the entire back catalog is helping me through my working day right now.

― \∫Öζ/.... argh oh noes! (ken c), Thursday, 5 March 2009 16:09 (4 years ago) Permalink

2 months pass...

Wild Horses couldn't drag me away

Oh god, please don't even get me started on the Sundays.

don't even get me started. Have you heard the first and second albums? HAVE YOU?

― I was still more rock and roll than anyone needed for the album (Bimble), Saturday, 9 May 2009 12:52 (4 years ago) Permalink

Come on, let's bring it down to earth. Most folks only know them from this song:

And they don't even the HALF of what they're missing.

Alex, thanks.

― I was still more rock and roll than anyone needed for the album (Bimble), Saturday, 9 May 2009 12:56 (4 years ago) Permalink

Okay no, I want to talk about this band RIGHT NOW. I don't care if you hate them, write me about them. god, in heaven the last traces of the soul of the Smiths were evident in the Sundays. You can't take it away from me, you young people with your hip hip-hip stuff...

I'm sorry but if you stack the first Sundays on top of the second one, then you have got some fantastic fucking legendary music going on.

See you at the Stone Roses fanclub meetup! LOLOLOL Mark G. back me up!

― I was still more rock and roll than anyone needed for the album (Bimble), Saturday, 9 May 2009 13:06 (4 years ago) Permalink

Oh god the cops are going to arrest me cause I sing too loud to it

But I gotta tell you that one "I Kicked A Boy" that one sends me to tears.
Hurts me in my heart, that one. Don't care if anyone thinks I'm square.

And that's why "Finest Hour" is a moment every respectable gay man should experience.

I'm 18 years old again when I hear this music. Take note, gay lads.

― I was still more rock and roll than anyone needed for the album (Bimble), Saturday, 9 May 2009 13:09 (4 years ago) Permalink

― More Goth Than Your Grandmother (Bimble), Monday, 11 May 2009 02:13 (4 years ago) Permalink

3 months pass...

still <3<3<3<3

― Flea Kuti (PappaWheelie V), Saturday, 22 August 2009 02:17 (3 years ago) Permalink

Aww, I was hoping this was a Bimble thread revive from beyond the grave.

― Johnny Fever, Saturday, 22 August 2009 04:15 (3 years ago) Permalink

3 weeks pass...

This is srsly one of the best things ever. ilu bimble

― Turangalila, Friday, 18 September 2009 06:55 (3 years ago) Permalink

7 months pass...

In such a mood for Harriet's voice today, listening to Reading Writing & Arithmetic is really improving my afternoon

― boxedjoy, Thursday, 22 April 2010 11:56 (3 years ago) Permalink

1 year passes...

Thank you once again, Spotify, for stuff like this: an absolutely gorgeous song, which should have been on Static and Silence, consigned to the b-side of the Cry single.

See how it's shining through the dark
As the teardrops fall and it illuminates the room
And we can't stop staring for a moment

― that mustardless plate (Bill A), Friday, 30 September 2011 12:42 (1 year ago) Permalink

6 months pass...

Static & Silence sounds lovely tonight.

― Tim F, Tuesday, 17 April 2012 13:37 (1 year ago) Permalink

"I used to be really frustrated about the lack of a lyric sheet on, at least, the vinyl, and actually wrote to Rough Trade asking them for this (or anything else Sundays-related). A white envelope came through the door a few weeks later with the lyrics to the LP photocopied by someone in the office, nothing else, no note or acknowledgement as I recall. I was looking for that envelope the other day but goodness knows just where it is now."

Reading this made me think "I miss the days when I'd do this kind of thing" but when I thought about it, I don't ever think I've written to a record company for lyrics ... A weird nostalgia for something that never actually happened.

― djh, Tuesday, 17 April 2012 22:58 (1 year ago) Permalink

I think I might now know where that envelope is.

― the pinefox, Wednesday, 18 April 2012 14:37 (1 year ago) Permalink

I think Reading Writing and Arithmetic is pretty solid, though I'm not as crazy about Wheeler's voice as some. It's that fashion for faux-naive, girlish-sounding voices in early '90s alternative music that dates it a bit. Cf. Kim Deal and Edie Brickell.

― o. nate, Thursday, 19 April 2012 15:30 (1 year ago) Permalink

faux-naive, girlish-sounding voices in early '90s alternative music that dates it a bit

One of the only styles from the 90s I'm still fond of and wish was as widespread now as it was then.

― Johnny Fever, Thursday, 19 April 2012 15:36 (1 year ago) Permalink

And yet, if the Sundays came back, they would still have a massive amount of goodwill.

― Mark G, Thursday, 19 April 2012 15:40 (1 year ago) Permalink

ha that's a great story about the lyrics sheet! very Rough Trade.

― piscesx, Thursday, 19 April 2012 16:45 (1 year ago) Permalink

9 months pass...

their cover of Wild Horses is ... somethin else

― surm, Tuesday, 29 January 2013 17:26 (4 months ago) Permalink

just imagine Mark Wahlberg and Reese Witherspoon necking

― the little prince of inane false binary hype (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 29 January 2013 17:29 (4 months ago) Permalink

ok now what

― ( ͡° ͜ʖ͡°) (sic), Tuesday, 29 January 2013 19:49 (4 months ago) Permalink

Now take your shirt off.

― Gollum: "Hot, Ready and Smeagol!" (Phil D.), Tuesday, 29 January 2013 19:51 (4 months ago) Permalink

Always makes me think of Buffy's prom

― Tim F, Tuesday, 29 January 2013 21:08 (4 months ago) Permalink

Glad pop culture never ruined this song for me. I still think of just listening to it in my room and pining for Harriet.

― Johnny Fever, Tuesday, 29 January 2013 21:09 (4 months ago) Permalink

ditto

― Cunga, Tuesday, 29 January 2013 21:23 (4 months ago) Permalink

it breaks my heart

― surm, Tuesday, 29 January 2013 21:27 (4 months ago) Permalink

Where did they go?

― Mark G, Tuesday, 29 January 2013 21:44 (4 months ago) Permalink

READING, WRITING & ARITHMETIC is one of my favorite albums of all time. Equivalent in quality, IMO, to The Smiths' or The Stone Roses' debut LPs.

― Tyler Burns (burns46824@yahoo.com), Tuesday, 29 January 2013 21:51 (4 months ago) Permalink

mmeeeeee too

― surm, Tuesday, 29 January 2013 21:52 (4 months ago) Permalink

Equivalent in quality, IMO, to The Smiths' or The Stone Roses' debut LPs.

I am offended on behalf of The Sundays.

― Tim F, Tuesday, 29 January 2013 21:52 (4 months ago) Permalink

o SNAP!

― surm, Tuesday, 29 January 2013 21:53 (4 months ago) Permalink

Correct, though, that this is one of the finest albums.

― Tim F, Tuesday, 29 January 2013 21:59 (4 months ago) Permalink

Blind gets a lot of stick but imo Goodbye is the best thing they ever did. It has serious bite, none of the whimsy of the debut that doesn't really appeal, and the multiple guitars at the end absolutely slay me.

― ledge, Thursday, 31 January 2013 16:18 (4 months ago) Permalink

I love them so much that I even think Static & Silence is great, adult contempo synth horns and all.

― The Apple Dumpling Gangbang (Old Lunch), Thursday, 31 January 2013 16:22 (4 months ago) Permalink

agree that "goodbye" is an all-time great song! "those stories were a good read... they were dumb as well" is undeniably classic.

― the girl from spirea x (f. hazel), Thursday, 31 January 2013 16:41 (4 months ago) Permalink

I've listened to RW&A a few times recently, influenced by the fact that it was released 23 years ago this month. 23 years. That's a lot of memories, but every time I listen I still remember listening to it when it first came out; it was my getting ready to go out music, of all things. And, as dear old Bimble wrote in this thread: "I'm 18 years old again when I hear this music.", but it sparkles with the same quiet power even now, and Harriet's voice is pretty, but never drippy or girlish - there's a steeliness to it, and, although her lyrics can be somewhat impressionistic, they also contain lines that are straightforward, brusque or barbed. I do love her phrasing, though. This go around I'm being particularly haunted by "Joy", and how she sings the line "Well you saw him/and you can hardly know", which gives me shivers.

― DavidM, Thursday, 31 January 2013 19:13 (4 months ago) Permalink

― DavidM, Thursday, 31 January 2013 19:18 (4 months ago) Permalink

I don't anticipate them ever falling out of my all-time top five artists.

― The Apple Dumpling Gangbang (Old Lunch), Thursday, 31 January 2013 20:38 (4 months ago) Permalink

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