rolling American football death spiral thread

I ask as a curious observer, not as a partisan of any kind: how much longer can a game that is being revealed as fundamentally unsafe survive in a litigious culture?

http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/01/13/3179926/dan-le-batard-jason-taylors-pain.html

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/page/hotread-kickoffs/should-nfl-eliminate-kickoffs-pursuit-safer-game

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7559458/cte-concussion-crisis-economic-look-end-football

The NFL is connected to untold billions of dollars, current players are aware of the risks - I don't think lawsuits are going to bring down the NFL soon.

Parents not letting kids play football, OTOH, could eventually do some damage.

cigarettes are fundamentally unsafe and lotsa people still smoke, after decades of this being public knowledge. I think we could be at or near 'peak football' in some ways - who knows what's gonna happen to cable tv, will middle class parents be less likely to let their kids play hs football? yeah I think that's likely.

but will people still watch other peoples kids get hurt? sure. the sport that's grown the most over the last decade involves people kicking the shit out of each other. there isn't even a ball, they just kick the shit out of each other. it is very clearly not good for your health. I can see football losing a lot of its pure apple pie american charm as it gets more and more associated w/ injuries and less w/ the charming white american quarterback throwing a touchdown in a movie...but that doesn't mean it won't be a multibillion dollar industry for decades to come.

i'm thinking this is going to be a pretty boring story in the end...slow evolution over 30 years into a v. different game that is much less violent

Outside of sports, American human capital and productivity probably rise. No football Saturdays on college campuses means less binge drinking, more studying, better grades, smarter future adults. Losing thousands of college players and hundreds of pro players might produce a few more doctors or engineers. Plus, talented coaches and general managers would gravitate toward management positions in American industry.

lol Grantland

oh my lord who do they think they're kidding

no football?? how in the world am i going to binge drink now????

there was some study that suggested that grades went down when your football program was doing well

i'm sure that's correct but the gas-huffing grantland author seems to assume that ppl won't find something to replace football with.

but stretching that to 'it will reshape american productivity' is obv dumb. the author is tyler cowen and he is kinda a troll ftr.

well lord knows we do need more people vying for "management positions in american industry"

in his foodie economist book that came out last year he suggested not going to restaurants that have attractive women in them

hahahah that sentence is so beautiful i am not even going to investigate further

i think one thing that's out there to "save" football as it stands now is a breakthrough in helmets that substantially lowers head injuries. whether or not that's possible i have no idea.

i have started to think tho that the "parents will stop their kids from playing football" thing is a bit overplayed. there's still riches in football, especially for poor families. maybe some multi-sport high school athletes will choose another sport, but if you're talking about poor kids where football is ingrained in the community (like in south florida) and has a tradition of being an easy way of getting out of a shitty situation... i don't know. you have to have a specific size to play basketball, and baseball is such an intensive sport.

the magic helmet basically isn't possible

yeah

i remember reading once that there's drastically less head injuries in rugby because you have to learn how to tackle without using your head. in football, the helmet gives the feeling of invincibility, so the helmet itself is probably a misnomer anyway

yeah iirc some articles suggest that the existing super-helmets encouraged the trend of head-weaponization in the first place (that I hear exists, I seriously don't watch football or have any idea what they do with their heads. have been watching Friday Night Lights tho)

that's why I'm also kinda skeptical of cad's 'game evolves into something really different for safety reasons' - like marginal safety improvements just don't change the reason why people get concussions when playing this game and aren't gonna make a dent in the rate it happens.

im really thinking more significant rule changes than marginal safety improvements

i think the most realistic change is something that prevents players from playing through injuries. if the NFL has to pai out multiple billions of dollars after all these suits are settled, they would have a real compelling reason to significantly strengthen their rules/regulations so that no player can talk his way out of sitting due to a concussion.

well the big problem goes beyond existing helmets or this helmet or no helmet - it's that concussions happen because your brain is hitting your skull, not because something is hitting your head

xp

as an aside do we have the slightest idea how many head injuries actually happen in rugby? i bet we do not.

i genuinely think football will evolve into a pass-dominant touch-tackle sport

yeah I guess I can see that path as a lot more viable

it helps that it's what people like too

yeah i could see that

Football would be a lot safer if they just replaced tackling with tickling.

lol

I think some are greatly overestimating how much the average fan gives a shit. Most football fans I know rationalize it as some "they knew what they were getting into" BS. The real test will be whether the NFL can survive an ongoing parade of lawsuits, but if they do, I don't think the fanbase is going anywhere.

These stories keep leaving a really bad taste in my mouth though, I feel a shameful complicity in just having watched the game...

i remember reading once that there's drastically less head injuries in rugby because you have to learn how to tackle without using your head. in football, the helmet gives the feeling of invincibility, so the helmet itself is probably a misnomer anyway

― J0rdan S., Thursday, January 17, 2013 4:40 AM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

In football you can play to the whistle and have 30 seconds to recover or leave the field, so in that timeframe all manner of violence can occur. Rugby has (more) sustained play so you couldn't have that kind of behavior or half the field would have injured dudes on it.

back before helmets people were getting killed in football all the time so I'm skeptical that they're a net negative

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6fejWutXCk

I've never heard about pre-helmet deaths - AFAICT only one NFL player has ever died on the field.

i think the most realistic change is something that prevents players from playing through injuries. if the NFL has to pai out multiple billions of dollars after all these suits are settled, they would have a real compelling reason to significantly strengthen their rules/regulations so that no player can talk his way out of sitting due to a concussion.

"In 1905, there was roughly one-fifth the number of college football players as there are today, yet, 18 were killed and 159 severely injured in that one year alone. "

sounds like a good way for weasel coaches to get extra timeouts

the solution is very simpe, guys: everybody should watch basketball instead

Football in 1905 didn't look much like today's game. What about 1945 or 1950?

I should think that the NFL is in no immediate danger of being litigated out of existance. After all, US courts tolerated the buying and selling of baseball players as chattel for a century. Almost 100% of modern american football players would be avid to sign away any and all rights they might have for redress of injuries, just for the chance to play in the NFL.

kind of interesting to think of all the brain damage O.J. Simpson was probably living with for the last 30 years

Football in 1905 didn't look much like today's game. What about 1945 or 1950?

― Kiarostami bag (milo z), Thursday, January 17, 2013 1:00 PM (33 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

football in 1905 didn't look much like today's game because the forward pass was invented to stop people from dying so much

I think the comparable sport here has to be boxing. It's not dead, but it's nowhere near as popular as it was last century, and I think football will head that way as people get turned off by the dawning understanding of the physical toll. (I'd like to see radio/tv numbers for how popular boxing has been over the last century.)

boxing was never as popular as football is right now tho

even in boxing's heyday i don't think it compares to football right now

it's hard to compare eras like that regardless

but I do think that, the two paths are either cad's high scoring touch football or wmc's game that's viewed as less family friendly and more masculine a la boxing etc. like your mom won't be organizing the super bowl party.

two other things that affect its future are going to be what happens to streaming video / cable / broadcast advertising etc and what happens to the american university system over the coming decades.

The biggest factors in the demise of boxing were first, overexposure, next widespread corruption, and lastly, unbridled greed that broke up the "world championship" titles into fragments. The NFL is flirting heavily with overexposure, but there is no hint atm that the games are fixed or the refs have been bought, and the NFL's central management is keeping conflict within the league from causing overt problems.

Aimless OTM. I don't think brutality means a thing.

MMA has picked up ground on boxing because the UFC acts as the central body with the true champs, doesn't protect up and comers to the degree of boxing, etc., despite being viscerally more brutal. (though, actually, I'd rather have my kid take up MMA than boxing - less dangerous to his or her brain).

oops, didn't edit - I don't think brutality was key in boxing's decline - that goes mostly to corruption and the way corruption screwed up the heavyweights. Plus better money in other sports and a cultural emphasis on team sports.

football in 1905 didn't look much like today's game because the forward pass was invented to stop people from dying so much

Should have been the forward kick.

Speaking of football, I wonder if they limited substitutions like in soccer, would that change on-field behavior?

Junior Seau's family is suing the NFL.

Looking forward to that suit being tossed ASAP. Frivolous.

• Esquire on football injuries
• Franco Harris: 'I'm hoping that if I eat my blueberries every day and do my memory exercises, I'll be okay.'
• Dave Duerson
• CTE found in living ex-NFL players

thanks for the links mookie

The NFL's Response to Brain Trauma: A Brief History

2002 - Hall of Fame Pittsburgh Steeler center Mike Webster dies. Towards the end of his life Webster was living out a pick-up truck, using a Taser to ease back pain, and applying Super Glue to his teeth.

Obama not sure he'd allow a son to play football

sure have been a lot of /www.nflevolution.com/ commercials during the super bowl

is this really the only ongoing super bowl discussion thread? (i have noticed that my twitter feed is more brit-twitter being confused than american-twitter being enthused.)

no, the other thread is on I love the nfl

it's not super active tho

IT'S SUPER BOWL XLVII: HARBAUGHWL (aka harbl?)

yeah, my 'this' is a link to that thread! (which i can't really see myself, i guess i should change stylesheet.)

lol i don't have that board on SNA so i didn't see that. thanks.

that ta-nehisi coates article is horrifying. and the comments are actually quite informative.

watching "Head Games" on Netflix thanks to the comments on that article now, checking it out

Coates article also links to this re Mike Webb, although turns out he's just the beginning (taser for back pain?!)
http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/research-finds-football-lead-brain-injury/story?id=8838451&page=3

Cumulative effects of subconcussive hits

How does this measure up to Aus Rugby League and AFL, where no one wears any kind of head protection? I know there's been League players here in the news for similar concussive cumulative injuries but I would have thought yr helmets prevented all this? (wusses ;P)

Actually I'm being a little spurious: some players do wear small leather headgear things.

as far as i'm aware, Aus rugby league, AFL & rugby players all know how to tackle properly, ie not just using their head as a battering ram (tbh, i say this without knowing much about AFL and Aus rugby, but i'm guessing it's more like rugby than Am. football). that probably reduces the chances of concussions.

On a postcard-perfect Southern California morning, George Visger is pissing blood. This comes as a relief. For me, mostly. But also for him. Things could be worse. He could be having a seizure. Or slipping into a coma. Which means I could be jamming a one-inch butterfly needle into a thumbnail-sized hole in the side of his skull, trying to siphon off excess spinal fluid while avoiding what Visger calls "the white stuff."

The white stuff being brain tissue.

http://espn.go.com/espn/story/_/page/George-Visger/george-visger-damage-done

a+ lede

i have started to think tho that the "parents will stop their kids from playing football" thing is a bit overplayed.

I can see that. What about liability-scurred schools stopping them, though? Any parents sued schools yet for football injuries? I guess the real problems don't show up until years later tho ...

my understanding is that a lawsuit would have to show that the defendant knew of the dangers and concealed them? i don't think a high school would be in that position and it will be hard to prove the nfl was.

I would think that if the NFL starts paying multimillion dollar settlements or penalties to the suing players, it won't be much longer before their insurers start getting spooked?

I think high school football programs might be shut down sooner by activism or administrative decisions than by lawsuits, on like case-by-case bases. idk. speculation.

Something's gotta give though, this is a story that's been building for a couple of years now.

Rawlings football helmet disclaimer:

WARNING: NO HELMET CAN PREVENT ALL HEAD OR ANY NECK INJURIES A PLAYER MIGHT RECEIVE WHILE PARTICIPATING IN FOOTBALL. Do not use this helmet or faceguard to butt, ram, or spear an opposing player. This is in violation of football rules and such case can result in severe head or neck injuries, paralysis or death to you and possible injury to your opponent. Contact in football may result in CONCUSSION/BRAIN INJURY which no helmet can prevent. Symptoms include: loss of consciousness or memory, dizziness, headache, nausea, or confusion. If you have symptoms, immediately stop playing and report them to your coach, trainer, doctor and parents. Do not return to a game or practice until all symptoms have resolved for an extended period of time and you have received written MEDICAL CLEARANCE. Ignoring this warning may lead to additional and more serious or fatal brain injury including potentially fatal second impact syndrome. No helmet system can protect you from serious brain and/or neck injuries including paralysis or death. To avoid these risks, do not engage in the sport of football.

Lest we forget football's unsung heroes:
Cheerleading: sports' most hazardous event?

Cheerleading produces a larger number of catastrophic injuries — concussions, skull fractures, cervical spine injuries, paralysis and death — than any other sport, male or female. Kids get hurt in gymnastics, softball, soccer and basketball, but there are twice as many severe casualties in cheerleading as in all the other female sports combined.

Just saw an advert for the LFL (women's gridiron, scantily-clad. Very scantily-clad). Fucking hell :(

I mean, I love the fact that women are increasingly playing major team sports and I'd love to see more women making men's teams on merit, but this feels sad, grisly and exploitative, so much so that I'd wonder whether those qualities are intrinsic to the nature of gridiron.

I'm pretty sure Lingerie Football League is more of a marketing phenomenon than a sport.

http://www.gq.com/entertainment/sports/201309/junior-seau-nfl-death-concussions-brain-injury

New York High School Football Player Dies After Helmet-to-Helmet Hit

way more teenagers die from car accidents than playing football, but I wouldn't let my hypothetical teenagers drive, either.

mentioned upthread, just seeing this now, but rugby is safer for the skull via:

1) no helmets/armour
2) backwards passing, so contact is at more oblique angles
3) premise/rules of the game create less of an incentive to drive people backwards when tackling them
4) you can't tackle/block someone who doesn't have the ball, so fewer hits on people not prepared for them

more neck injuries in rugby though i think, but that's just the scrum. you could get rid of that without fundamentally changing the entire game.

5) oxbridge educated captains ensure safety and good spirt

cool silby

"Three days later, as the Western New York community of Westfield was praying for his recovery, he died."

I'm not sure how I'm supposed to feel about the first part of that sentence. It goes without saying that if someone is in the hospital, people will be praying for that person to recover. So does including that he died as(?) the community was praying for him somehow mean that praying for him was stupid? Meaningless from the start? Shows that God doesn't exist? Just a very strange sentence.

League of Denial Frontline episode

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/league-of-denial/

bump for daytime, really affecting documentary imo. Ann McKee is my science hero. Can't imagine what it's like to be the parent of a 21 year old who hanged himself and had the same brain-damage as pro players with 2-decade careers.

• Bears QB Cutler to miss at least four weeks
• Colts' Wayne done for season | Injury Wire
• Packers' Finley tweets: Out of ICU, walking
• Rams' Bradford done for season
• Sources: Bengals' Hall to season-ending IR

the problem with this title is that 'death spiral' sounds like a potentially thrilling spectacle if you like nfl

Pro Football Hall of Famer Tony Dorsett [has] been diagnosed as having signs of chronic traumatic encephalopathy, a degenerative condition many scientists say is caused by head trauma and linked to depression and dementia, doctors have told "Outside the Lines."

The former Cowboys running back, now 59, said that when he took his Oct. 21 flight from Dallas to Los Angeles for testing, he repeatedly struggled to remember why he was aboard the plane and where he was going. Such episodes, he said, are commonplace when he travels.

Dorsett said he also gets lost when he drives his two youngest daughters, ages 15 and 10, to their soccer and volleyball games.

"I've got to take them to places that I've been going to for many, many, many years, and then I don't know how to get there," he said.

Dorsett's 12-year playing career ended a quarter-century ago. He said he doesn't know how many concussions he suffered, but that they were numerous and he believes their consequences are, too.

"My quality of living has changed drastically and it deteriorates every day," he said.

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/9931754/former-nfl-stars-tony-dorsett-leonard-marshall-joe-delameilleure-show-indicators-cte-resulting-football-concussions

: (

The place where american football is most at risk for shrinking popularity would be among youths under 18, whose parents may soon refuse to allow them to play at the high school level, or even younger kids playing in "pop warner" leagues, due to rapidly growing concerns over head trauma. If the supply of young players dries up, then colleges and the nfl will draw from a smaller talent pool that no longer attracts the top athletes.

Eventually, the declining numbers of youths playing the game and loss of top talent would erode the fan base and the pro franchises would start to regress in value. Even then the death of the nfl would be a long way off, but it would well into its decline.

The NFL, which declined to comment, has repeatedly asserted that there is not enough evidence to draw a conclusion that playing football causes CTE or other brain damage.

Which is, of course, pure bunk. That line of crap is purely for the legal purpose of limiting the nfl's liability. Parents of kids will evaluate the risk differently as these stories start to pile up, and they'll let them play soccer or lacrosse instead.

unless there is change from above, there will always be -- as there basically is now -- an underclass willing to take its chances for a shot at money/fame

john moffitt can walk away because he has other options. some kid from aliquippa doesn't

That risk-taking underclass still feeds boxing, but it doesn't take much money and equipment to box. It's cheap, like a lottery ticket that might pay off with millions, although it rarely does.

American football requires large numbers of players, a big field, lots of equipment and officials, and is comparatively expensive to play. That expense is largely underwritten by the middle class and a lot of the run-of-the-mill high school players are middle class, too. If they withdraw their support, the base of the pyramid crumbles.

^^To which I should add the observation that american football has never before been as lavishly supported at the high school level and below as it is today, so if the sport is going to fall there is no sign of it happening, yet, aside from those small, but ominous shadows being cast by the cte cases just now being widely publicized.

the middle class is willing to (and totally does, through cable fees and publicly financed stadiums and tuition) underwrite football, whether its kids play or not.

boxing is dying because ppl find it barbaric (and too irregularly exciting), not because they prevented their kids from taking part. football has the advantage of owning sundays for much of the year (tbh i think it's diluted its power with the thursday stuff) and vastly more money and political influence than boxing ever had.

my dad is a chemistry prof at a small division iii college (which was all women until relatively recently) that is totally plowing major funds into a football team because it believes it necessary to draw students. none of these players are going pro. the whole thing is pointless, particularly with cte revelations. but i guess half-assed high school grads require a focus for their drinking.

That expense is largely underwritten by the middle class and a lot of the run-of-the-mill high school players are middle class, too. If they withdraw their support, the base of the pyramid crumbles.

^you guys are seriously underestimating the importance of football to the culture of large swaths of the USA. There will always be plenty of players. 100 players on my local HS' junior feeder team this year, and i bet this number doesnt change, CTE or no CTE. Football's going nowhere.

the whole thing is pointless, particularly with cte revelations. but i guess half-assed high school grads require a focus for their drinking.

^ i have no idea how its pointless. Participation in intercollegiate athletics can only be a good thing, especially at the DIII level where they actually require the athletes to go to class and be part of the student community. Guys dont play college football just as a springboard to the NFL, you know.

well it can also be a bad thing for sure, if 3-4 years of hitting guys with your head in college leads to you ending up like dorsett or earl campbell among hundreds of others. but I also agree the nfl isn't going anywhere, bc it's not like you're suddenly seeing any nflers exit the game in drives, it would take loads of superstars quitting at once and coming out against the game to do anything. Right now you see a few low level guys leave citing health concerns and that's about it. Afaik even ex nflers who are suffering aren't calling on the end of the game they're calling on improved safety and financial assistance.

It's nice that we want to tell these people what's best for them and in some respects we are right. But the fact that not a single NFL'er has retired over this is telling. These people want to play, and even most former players, those who played under much worse safety rules and were paid much less, still say they'd do it again. The issue of parents not letting their kids play is a real concern though, but I'd reckon we won't see the effects of that for 20 years.

i played all 4 years in college (and 8 years before that) and I have no problems. its pretty rare. There's risks in everything in life. I think the benefits of football outweigh any negatives.

xpost with frogs

I live in the South. I can assure you there will be absolutely NO shortage of players coming out of this area.

I missed this from last year, but Jim McMahon has early-stage dementia too.
http://espn.go.com/chicago/nfl/story/_/id/8429574/former-chicago-bears-qb-jim-mcmahon-says-do-would-play-baseball

since it appears the Republican and Democratic parties will not die in my lifetime, i'd settle for the NFL.

(college football as a cash cow, even better)

http://espn.go.com/high-school/football/story/_/id/9966789/charles-youvella-arizona-high-school-football-player-dies-brain-injury-suffered-game

i played all 4 years in college (and 8 years before that) and I have no problems. its pretty rare. There's risks in everything in life. I think the benefits of football outweigh any negatives.

― One Way Ticket on the 1277 Express (Bill Magill), Thursday, November 7, 2013 8:37 AM (5 days ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

xpost with frogs

I live in the South. I can assure you there will be absolutely NO shortage of players coming out of this area.

― One Way Ticket on the 1277 Express (Bill Magill), Thursday, November 7, 2013 8:38 AM (5 days ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i think absolutely the negatives outweigh the benefits! i mean tony dorsett, an all time great running back...i wonder if he'd trade in his NFL career for full health and a long, lucid life. BUT as i said before i don't think the game is going anywhere. people still smoke and everyone knows it's likely to kill you or at minimum be a miserable habit later in life.

he probably wouldn't tbh

There are always going to be people who are willing to hurt themselves to "help their families". It's up to the NFL and the NCAA to protect their employees rather than exploit them. So far ... not doing so well.

I know "NCAA employees" is not the right way to describe this relationship, although it should be.

I mean Deadspin has that interview series, "would you do it again?" or something like that, and they interview dudes who were a lot less famous or well-off than Dorsett. And they pretty much all say, "I wouldn't trade it for anything"

if it goes downhill the way boxing has since the '70s, it will be from external pressures, not reluctant potential players.

Unless an MMA-analogue comes along I don't see the NFL getting any less popular anytime soon.

yeah probably, but i think despite a lot of players proclaiming zero regrets, i'm not sure how true those proclamations actually are. and if they'd been presented with the choice ahead of time of playing the game + the attendant health issues VS not playing, i wonder how many would have gone ahead and done it.

i'm sure we'll see a lot of guys who would have otherwise played who will decide to not do it, but there will also be plenty of people to take their place.

right. and inevitably it'll led to a dilution of the talent pool - I can see the Calvin Johnson types playing basketball instead. when the on-field product sucks (as it kinda has this year!) I can see the game losing popularity.

NFL isn't gonna die lol if anything it'll just get MORE violent and murderous

I look forward to the culling of the jock herds in this manner

pretty soon we'll have wide receivers and tight ends just going around killing people willy nilly

Are there any studies about CTE in rugby, aussie rules, CFL, etc.?

i don't know this, but i can't see why it would be any more of an issue in aussie rules or tennis or bar billiards. aussie rules is not that kind of cumulative head knocks game.

with rugby there's less of a problem than nfl (both intuitively because of nature of the game and in terms of actual evidence in the rugby alumni population) but there are a few cases yes.

definitely much fewer studies done in rugby though

been reading them because i have student athletes doing reports on them for my science class

If League of Denial is right about microconcussions (aka the accumulation of minor head trauma from regular, normal hits), it could apply to any contact sport. Football is the worst of course because it's so fast and so repetitive.

i think w/football the players have a false sense of security bc of the helmets. they hit hard with the helmets along the line, and they're protected on the outside of the skull but the inside doesn't have that benefit. rugby players get knocked on the head too but they'd be less likely to do it all game long. i think CTE in hockey has been a thing though?

Have each football teams play 3 times a week and see if that helps. And then the NFL would make more money. Win win.

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/page/popwarner/pop-warner-youth-football-participation-drops-nfl-concussion-crisis-seen-causal-factor

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/10/americas-newest-culture-war-football

poor football ;_;

so are countless comment pundits correct? would taking the helmets away from players solve this issue?

it might change certain behavior helpfully, probably mostly for linemen, but you'd be left with some gruesome accidental contact inherent to large fast people running into each other/the ground

we wouldn't have to wonder if we'll ever see a player die during a televised game for much longer

You're not going to change 14+ years of ingrained behavior (any given NFL player has been playing tackle with pads and helmets since he was eight or nine years old) overnight by taking away helmets. Nor are you going to reverse the existence of 320-pound men who can run a 4.6 40 - they didn't exist when football was played with padded leather helmets.

rugby

seems like it wd be easier if u just banned football

u can't ban the nfl; it's a non-profit

so are countless comment pundits correct? would taking the helmets away from players solve this issue?

― Mordy , Monday, December 2, 2013 8:18 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

No, its a stupid idea

If the experts cited by Frontline were really onto something, he says, "society would look like Night of the Living Dead."

welllllll

because, as we know, the vast majority of Americans have played in the NFL

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/10366514/former-detroit-lions-rb-jahvid-best-suing-nfl-helmet-maker

Not sure if this is going to become anything, but the fact that a 24 year old is suing the NFL over concussions is pretty significant

"society would look like Night of the Living Dead."

I hate to tell you, but...

"would taking the helmets away from players solve this issue?"

I don't think so, the move to helmets and pads really starts as there was quite a few deaths back in the dawn of the sport at the turn of the last century. Teddy Roosevelt being one of the people that led for changes in the game to make it less violent and deadly.

Yet Rugby players don't have this problem in anything the numbers American football players do

They may not have the forward pass but they do have the forward kick in open play

The nature of the scrum and how the ball moves in rugby is pretty different than American football where the game starts from a set every play with active motion behind the line and having the forward pass. From that you don't get as many full speed blind side hits like you do in American football.

NFL changing the rules to emphasize the pass I think has had unintended consequences on these blind side hits, as clubs study each others plays and there are tons of times defensive players look at a setup and know exactly where the ball might go, as so much of modern passing are timing patterns where the QB is just throwing to a certain spot the field. They just basically wait like an assassin for the ball and receiver to get to that point and just totally unload on the offensive player. Those kind of "helmet to helmet" hits are where the NFL football have been trying to make the changes and on plays where the player gets blind sided like getting hit by a truck.

NFL players are just athletic freaks, the range of size and speed of some of these guys at this point is pretty staggering. Even the average college offensive line will have five guys averaging 300 pounds each. Back in the 80s when the Fridge played, he was huge, now he would be just a bit over average and some of these huge men are amazingly fast for their size.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/01/health/jenkins-nfl/index.html?c=homepage-t

Illegalize zone defenses. Massive blow up hits don't happen in man to man

Did Javid best sue cal and the PAC-12 too? The guy was basically a vegetable before he got to the League due to concussions.

yeah the cal play when he got injured was one of the roughest things i've watched

i was watching some episodes of friday night tykes + it's pretty horrifying and I no longer believe organized tackle football should be legal, at least in that age bracket

http://www.theonion.com/articles/totally-irresponsible-parents-remember-to-drop-son,34610/

re: Rugby, I read something that suggested concussions have been under-diagnosed.

Reading and enjoying the fascinating Against Football right now. Paints a good picture of the sport as an exploitative business and a cultural sickness.

a week ago i heard that Seattle won the last Super Bowl, and laughed

people flipped a shit around here that's for sure

when they had a victory parade I think the whole blighted countryside of western Washington crowded into five square blocks

@DennisThePerrin
When I see #NFL fans fight in the stands, I think: 1) Yes, dance to your masters' tune! 2) Why spill a perfectly good $18 lite beer?

http://www.slate.com/articles/sports/sports_nut/2014/09/nfl_players_life_spans_and_domestic_violence_rates_could_pro_football_actually.html

@DennisThePerrin
When I see #NFL fans fight in the stands, I think: 1) Yes, dance to your masters' tune! 2) Why spill a perfectly good $18 lite beer?

― son of a lewd monk (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, September 24, 2014 3:20 PM (4 days ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

When I see "Dennis Perrin" i see a massive pussy

i see a guy who tweets like english is his second or third language.

I never heard of the guy so I tried to research him on the Internet. Unfortunately all that came up is his twitter account. Apparently some non-entity

so you guys could bond over that

Perrin is a pretty big NFL fan

fuck your motherfucking asshole sport btw

stop c+ping his stupid tweets, thanks

cosign

heywood jablome

(good tight end for Notre Dame in the '70s)

no

i can't figure out at this point if morbz posts them bc he legit thinks they're clever/witty and ilx needs to see them, or if he's just trolling us bc he knows no one thinks they're clever or witty.

fuck your motherfucking asshole sport btw

^easy, killer

I used to be able to throw a pretty good American football death spiral. Bad shoulder now.

It's now known as the "Sanchez"

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/13/sports/football/actuarial-reports-in-nfl-concussion-deal-are-released.html

so three HS kids die at/after practice in one week, a couple weeks ago

NYT story about the Tallahassee police cleaning up FSU players' messes was sickmaking

but on it rolls

@DennisThePerrin · 21h
To make this wretched season complete, New England must win. The Patriots deserve to be the NFL's standard bearer. #SuperBowl

@DennisThePerrin · 21h
On a positive note, the NFL had a bad PR year. Nothing that would sink the ship, but you have to start somewhere. #SuperBowl

As part of their $400 million renovation of Sun Life Stadium, the (Miami Dolphins are) installing 32 “living rooms” in the lower bowl of the stadium that come in groups of four with 30-inch wide recliners and an 18-inch television in front of each seat.

“We’re out to give a fan the very best seat and the very best experience they could possibly have,” Dolphins president and CEO Tom Garfinkel, via ESPN.com. “There are enough people in this marketplace that, if you can do that, (you) don’t care what it costs.”

This is the future of the NFL: Private rooms for people who can afford to pay $75,000 per season (that’s 160% of Miami’s median income!) to sit and watch the game at TV like they were at home, but in the same building as the actual game.

they should live there

And when they die, they should be buried underneath the field.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sports/concussion-watch/new-87-deceased-nfl-players-test-positive-for-brain-disease/

96 percent

Voluntary donors are a biased sample of course but that's a dramatic number even so, especially given that CTE isn't found in people who don't hit each other in the head.

http://usatodayhss.com/2015/no-colquitt-county-coach-rush-propst-headbutts-player-opens-bloody-gash-in-middle-of-playoff-game

This was bizarre. Someone in my family is coaching a HS football team and they played on Friday night. The opposing team's coach had a freakout where he was yelling at one of his kids and went up and headbutted him so hard that he started bleeding. He seems to be a pretty controversial pick for a coach too w a dodgy history. Seems to keep getting jobs for some reason or another...

Just imagining a math or english teacher coming up and hitting a kid, they would lose their job in a heartbeat.

What if you wore a helmet to math class?

literally disband all HS football teams and fire all head football coaches

http://www.slate.com/articles/sports/sports_nut/2015/12/the_truth_about_will_smith_s_concussion_and_bennet_omalu.html

But are we actually watching players kill themselves before our eyes? No, not on average: A 2012 study of several thousand NFL retirees, conducted by researchers at the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health, found that the former football players lived significantly longer than race- and age-matched controls. They were much less likely to die from cancer, heart disease, diabetes, accidental falls, or homicides than anybody else. That doesn’t mean that taking hits improved their health, of course; surely the opposite is true. But still this study gave the lie to a fundamental intuition about football and one that’s touted almost everywhere. There’s zero evidence that playing professional football shortens lives on average. Those are the facts. Take ’em or leave ’em.

This is the best study that we have on NFL players and mortality, yet its findings never seem to enter public consciousness. The simple truth, that former players aren’t dying—that in lots of ways they’re much healthier than you or me—smacks against the screen-ready version of history, in which a team of underdog physicians, led by heroes like Bennet Omalu, risked their livelihoods to expose a hidden slaughter.

^This is just changing the subject. He pretends the discussion was a concern about longevity rather than about degenerative brain disease. His facts don't refute the concerns about brain disease. Those facts don't even address the real subject.

there's some good points in there but his ending it basically saying, despite his protestations, that cte basically isn't a substantial thing, seems very iffy.

and nfl players' relative longevity makes sense surely? they're wealthy, do a lot of exercise during their careers, and retire in their 30s.

been thinking about brain injuries lately, an acquaintance had a bike accident without a helmet on, and sustained a brain injury. while he can already walk normally, talk properly, etc. he's very, very clearly altered in some major and deleterious way that is really affecting to see

Part of the discussion has been overall longevity - every now and then I'll see someone quote another study that said football players lived ten years shorter than peers (controlled for ethnicity, body type/size, etc.).

yes, it's definitely something ive came across, and believed tbh.

Sad, poorly argued defenses of still watching this insipid sport are a leading indicator imho (or rather, a trailing indicator of the peak)

http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2016/01/why-we-need-football

https://newrepublic.com/article/124409/necessity-football

Also, the college playoffs ratings totals dropped by a full third from last year. What do you think ESPN's chances are of transforming New Year's Eve into College Football Playoff Night? Hubris, anyone?

I saw a bar/restaurant in my neighborhood that had scrawled "We Love That Captain Kirk! HTTR" on the chalkboard outside this morning; I immediately resolved to stop patronizing them and openly talk shit about their poor menu, lackadaisical service and mediocre beer selection whenever the opportunity strikes.

This is why between 2012 and 2015 the Department of Defense paid 18 NFL teams a total of more than $5.6 million for marketing and advertising, including flying military bombers over stadiums at taxpayers’ expense.

He gets really close here to making a point.

On the home stretch of not watching a single minute of football (either nfl or college) all season for maybe the first time in my life. Though the freedom has gone to my head and I've given up regular season nba as well.

youve gone too far

Horrible decision on that last part

the media: dude check out all these brain injuries and fucked up stuff about football
ryan: oh wow thats terrible i guess i better stop watching sports
steph curry: *is literally christ*
ryan: i sure hope i didnt miss christ returning
me: *points to a sign i made that says "YA U DID DUDE"*

lol. i dunno it's like i needed a break. also pre-xmas nba is very skippable in my experience.

then i guess you missed the warriors streak eh

nah luke walton becoming a jedi was fun but all bb played before the super bowl is preseason

luke walton is actually phil jackson's child imo

lol i'm thiiiis close to being arsed to shop that

The only football I've watched since that shit show of a Super Bowl last year has been games that just happened to be on in various drinking and eating locations that I was spending time drinking and eating in. And GIFs that popped up on Deadspin. Quitting the NFL = way easier than cigarettes or beer, no surprise there

Anyway prepare to be sad: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/dc-sports-bog/wp/2016/01/19/former-nfl-receiver-antwaan-randle-el-regrets-ever-playing-football/

Randle El is not naive to the profitability of the sport or the impact it has on society, but with the concussion and life-long injury issues getting more attention than ever before, the nine-year veteran thinks the end may be near.

“Right now, I wouldn’t be surprised if football isn’t around in 20, 25 years.”

Me neither, Antwaan. I hope they can figure out how to help these guys get better. I mean stem cells and nanoscale whatsits, right? There have to be some prospects for treatment somewhere in the pipeline?

OTOH I guess if a reliable program of treatment were developed it would just become an excuse to let people keep hitting each other with the force of highway collisions

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CZHkaFTWYAEYn50.jpg

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/school-said-son-suffered-a-concussion-parents-sued-to-get-him-back-on-field/2016/01/18/8a15c018-bdec-11e5-9443-7074c3645405_story.html

this story linked in the randle el one is insane.

Kerasidis explained that there are two schools of thought: (1) A child’s brain is still developing and any trauma can be especially harmful; (2) children are smaller, slower and perhaps unable to deliver as much force in their collisions as older players.

how are these mutually exclusive?

in my experience playing football from junior high through high school im pretty sure i saw dozens of concussions (and was dazed myself a number of times) but i can only remember 1 or 2 actually being diagnosed as such.

point being: even if medically diagnosed concussions arent happening regularly that doesnt mean that it's a safe sport for children (or anyone).

also: i used to play full tackle football minus any pads or helmets with buddies all the time, and it was much much safer (and less terrifying). and more fun.

in my experience playing football from junior high through high school im pretty sure i saw dozens of concussions (and was dazed myself a number of times) but i can only remember 1 or 2 actually being diagnosed as such.

― ryan, Wednesday, January 20, 2016

long-term memory loss :(

"good news guys it's not a concussion just a grade 2 rung bell"

hah, that's pretty much the way it was. concussions were kind of a laughing matter back then, people would talk about dumb things they did because they were concussed much like people talk about being drunk. when you get one though it's scary...like "wait, are we whites or blues today, why can't I remember??" scary - this was not all that long ago

As a bona fide nerd weakling the idea of laughing off a traumatic brain injury is terrifying to me.

well sure when you call it a traumatic brain injury it sounds scary

that's why the tough guys call it "getting your bell rung".

concerned citizen: um your skin is literally flayed and i can see all your muscles
football bro: oh i just got my sausage casing peeled
cc: also i am a doctor and u have lupus
fb: just gotta little jam on my face
cc: plz stop dying
fb: just getting my toe tag sized

t/s "getting your bell rung" or "getting the wind knocked out of you". i haven't played enough contact sports to know the difference.

I know the QB of my high school team got his bell rung (i.e. concussion) a few times. I remember playing a JV game as a sophmore and ole' Hank got clobbered and the dude was acting stoned to the bone on the side line not knowing where he was even at. Being that Randle El played at my college IU and Dave Duerson was from my home town and it makes me sad about football. That said, the only time I think I might have gotten a concussion playing sports as a kid was in wrestling as I got suplexed in an AAU match by a guy that ended up national champ and later a collegiate champ as a teenager. I just remember being spaced the fxck out and having a splitting headache for a couple days.
Getting the wind knocked out of you is a totally different thing really, as you basically slam to the surface and have all of the wind in your lungs expelled in a single violent hit. It's pretty scary but goes away in a minute.

ah ok

in my football career i got:

1) the wind knocked out of me (the most terrifying)
2) my "bell rung" (dazed and stars and loss of equilibrium, not sure if actual concussion lol football)
3) racked right in the balls since i brilliantly decided not to wear a cup for that game <--this is by far the worst

a good friend did have a diagnosed concussion one day, and i remember him approaching me on the sideline and basically cheerfully saying something that made no sense at all. i had to keep him from going back in the game since he thought he was fine. he came to school the next day (thursday night game) and said his parents had to wake him up once an hour, which i guess is some kind of stand procedure for concussions.

a good friend did have a diagnosed concussion one day, and i remember him approaching me on the sideline and basically cheerfully saying something that made no sense at all....

― ryan, Saturday, January 23, 2016

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPRscxQZs8E

yeah getting the wind knocked out is much less serious but a whole lot scarier while it's happening

i've had the wind knocked out of me too many times to count. i just thought that was part of being young. never had a concussion, but also never played anything but pick up football

my grandpa would never watch the nfl: "they're all just trying to hurt each other" dude had a point

concerned citizen: um your skin is literally flayed and i can see all your muscles
football bro: oh i just got my sausage casing peeled
cc: also i am a doctor and u have lupus
fb: just gotta little jam on my face
cc: plz stop dying
fb: just getting my toe tag sized

― ecclesiastes nutz (m bison), Saturday, January 23, 2016 5:01 AM (Yesterday)

lol

I was thinking earlier this year that if the Pats got to the SB again it would actually be bad for the NFL, because lol cheaters, but now they lost by a missed FG to some juicers, so really, why would anybody watch this? If the Panthers lose, I mean. Cam Newton is, unfortunately for my argument, a joy.

Oh wow I can't believe this hasn't been linked from this thread yet

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2305112-roger-goodells-a-christmas-carol

The Davis specter shrugged. "Suit yourself, shortcake. But keep in mind it's not just your soul that's at stake. Professional football itself is in jeopardy."

Goodell scoffed. "You know better than that, Al. The sport is healthier than ever, because I give fans and advertisers exactly what they want."

"If you say so, rainbow. It's no skin off my back, since I don't have a skin or a back anymore. The first ghost will get here when he gets here." With that, the Davis ghost vanished from sight.

As the final wisp of his visage faded, Goodell heard a peculiar bell. It was not a Christmas bell, nor a funerary church bell, nor the cathedral bells he could hear peeling each hour over the Manhattan street noise.

It was a boxing ring bell, Goodell realized as sleep overtook him.

peeling pealing

>=( @ bleacher report.

The only reason he works there is because FO doesn't pay the mortgage, Sports On Earth went half-Grantland, ESPN already hired Barnwell and SBnation is just stupid I guess

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/27/sports/football/former-giants-safety-tyler-sash-found-to-have-cte.html?smid=tw-share&_r=0

I realize SF denizens hating on shitty public displays isn't like a big surprise or any kind of indicator of the imminent demise of the sport but this is mildly entertaining

http://deadspin.com/san-franciscans-have-declared-war-on-super-bowl-sculptu-1756345681

and I also liked this comment:

You can glean this from the TV advertising, but it really stood out to me when the NFL draft was held last year not far from where I live in Chicago: the NFL has this thing where they can’t just smile and acknowledge that they’re the most popular sport in America; they have to have MORE. It’s like they want to bully you into getting hyped for football, like they want to create this sense that you’re not really participating in the culture if you’re not glued to your TV every Sunday*. Is my walk to work disrupted and my coworkers’ commute messed up by the weeklong unavailability of every parking lot near my office? THE NFL DRAFT IS COMING TO CHICAGO LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT. Why wouldn’t arguably the most beautiful city in America (I went to high school in SF) welcome dropping garish SUPERBOWL 50 sculptures all over the place? IT’S FOOTBAAAWWWL.

Dude shouldn't drive to work anyway if he works in the loop. Ban cars.

OMG FUCK THIS STUPID SPORTSBALL POLICE STATE BULLSHIT

had to vent

there are metal detectors and cops in riot gear all over the place near my office - streets are blocked, public buildings are only accessible through security checkpoints, traffic/public transit is re-routed, ugly temporary statues everywhere... I hate pro-sports in general but making it unavoidable like this should be against the law imo.

I mean the game is in FUCKING SANTA CLARA

gawd if they schedule a super bowl for Seattle ever I'm taking a goddamn vacation

there are drones/copters flying over head scanning for "background radiation"

O RLY

When Dallas-Ft Worth had the Super Bowl I flew to NY for four days. Even better, it was actually warmer in NY than Texas that weekend.

just deigned to check and fortunately Seattle is not in the running through at least 2020

i still follow the NFL from the outside looking in with regards to stats and standings a lot, but even with that limited exposure stories like the Ken Stabler one continue to give me pause. also the Stabler story being the top sidebar story on ESPN, right next to a front page story about the #1 college recruit choosing to go to Michigan and me wondering if we're gonna see a similar story about him in thirty years.

I didn't realize SBNation runs the "Meet The Bag Man" story every year on NCAA signing day.

http://www.vulture.com/2015/09/bruno-mars-super-bowl-halftime-show.html

Approaching stunt-shittiness

SAN FRANCISCO -- NFL commissioner Roger Goodell said that if he had a son, he would "love to have him play the game of football" despite various concerns about concussions and other safety-related issues.

Goodell, speaking Friday at his annual Super Bowl week news conference, said the NFL has "made great progress" in the area of concussions by way of rule changes and improving equipment.

"From my standpoint, I played the game of football for nine years, through high school. I wouldn't give up a single day of that," Goodell said. "If I had a son, I'd love to have him play the game of football. I'd love to have him play the game of football because of the values you get.

"There's risk in life. There's risk sitting on the couch. What we want to do is get people active. I want them to experience the game of football because the game of football will teach you the values ... the discipline, the teamwork, the perseverance. Those are values and those are skills that will lead you through life, and I believe football is the best to teach that."

johnny values

it's true though there are so many former NFL players who movingly talk about how football has given them a new appreciation for what is actually important in life, what should be valued, and they really desperately try to pass that message along to people thinking about playing the game.

If I had a son

Joe Montana at 59: 'I can't really run or do much'

“I tried a little bit of skiing, but unfortunately when you get weight on one ski under my left knee, it’s just not very strong. After my first back surgery, what kind of compounds things, is my sciatic nerve has been damaged. So the muscles along my sciatic nerve into my left foot have been numb since ’86.’’

Add Marshawn Lynch to the reasons you used to watch

http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2016/2/7/10934536/marshawn-lynch-retirement-seahawks-nfl

there are smokier guns than a 59yo who has trouble skiing

Oh yeah if I'm trying to run and jump and ski at age 59 then I've got other things wrong with me
But I am never an elite QB

during that one last touchdown, i was reminded why football was awful -- as CJ anderson struggled the few yards to the end zone, he took like three or four really intense blows to the head. a little horrifying, frankly.

in the super bowl obvs

you can kind of see (and hear) it around 0:50 here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8nYdByKNRM

Magary has another excellent piece up, on pads and helmets:

http://deadspin.com/the-one-thing-the-nfl-will-never-do-to-make-football-sa-1758114037

IMHO somebody else will try and create a no-armor league, and who knows, people might watch. I would.

Big fan of the XFL?

@washingtonpost
Ivy League football unanimously votes to cut tackling in practice http://wapo.st/1LTm0Cw

@dick_nixon
Jesus!

boom

In N.F.L., Deeply Flawed Concussion Research and Ties to Big Tobacco

x2

https://twitter.com/NYTSports/status/713068574441652224

http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2016/3/28/11250362/nfl-concussions-cte-connection-roger-goodell-comments

The owners really do all deserve their own circle in hell.

At the end of the day I think [these athletes] are adults and they're getting paid large sums of money.... A lot of these guys that are claiming they're having these concussion issues, they have alcohol or drug problems that are just going to compound it.

jim irsay's daughter in glamour

an aside to this part, but:

But the hardest thing—in some ways, even more than being a woman—is people just assume that this was handed to you [by your parents].

the owners and their families are all first against the wall imho
I have one lung holding its breath for some of the "good ones" like the Maras or the Rooneys to come out and state that this is bullshit while the other lung just keeps going GLWT DUMBASS

The Browns pick up RG3. Parity is bullshit, there's a competitive set of teams and then a pile of organizations that demonstrably are long past pretending to give any fucks.

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/04/18/474702082/concussion-update-u-s-appeals-court-affirms-deal-between-nfl-retired-players

A couple million bucks each for the uncompensated QALYs likely to be lost by all these thousands of men seems like robbery but I'm not a judge I guess.

I believe the eventual payouts from that could become what insurance underwriters talk about when they talk about "the tail"

Leitch swoops in with the challops!! He's got the numbers to back him up!!

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2016/09/by-staying-silent-roger-goodell-and-the-nfl-won.html

The film flopped. Nobody cared. Television ratings for 2015 games were up from 2014, and so on. The American public has listened to all the arguments about the immorality and dangers of football, and they have responded by … watching more football. I’m sorry, Mr. Bradshaw, but however scary CTE makes football seem, I’m not sure soccer’s gonna catch up.

1. Everybody still hates Goodell. Nobody will defend his record. He is an atrocity. I repeat, everyone hates him.
2. Concussion didn't do well at the box office?!?!? OMG NFL football is doing great!
3. The product keeps getting worse (nobody remembers anything about the last seven highest rated shows on TV except that one where the Seahawks were dumb and that one with the blackout)
4. All the preseason headlines I've seen have been about:
- disgusting injuries
- the Vegas stadium pricetag
- some guys kneeling during the anthem

Yes, it's an exciting sport that people want their young boys to play and it definitely hasn't peaked, because people still put the Super Bowl on while they do other stuff - Goodell's a genius!

I look forward to Leitch reversing his position on the WB DC film franchise two years from now when Zack Snyder cleverly chooses to not address his critics.

lol as if the film was the first time people had heard of concussions and CTE

does everybody think Tagliabue is often getting let off the hook for things he made Goodell inherit simply cos he didn't commish in the social media explosion era?

obv I think he was better than Goodell (esp in public relations), but his administration is also the one that let Leonard Little play again so idk how much better....

I think Goodell is definitely getting hit with criticism for things that are exactly as they were under Tagliabue - Leitch does trot out his "journalist issue" thing wrt head trauma - people really didn't pay that much attention. Ditto stadium financing, shitty officiating, do-nothing domestic abuse policy, arbitrary discipline and dumb ideas about drugs.

it could be football is in a death spiral but i don't know how you'd tell. it seems as hegemonic + popular as ever and it's not like americans have demonstrated any kind of sensitivity that would suggest that they're ready to abandon it en masse for its crimes. as long as the sport is not literally just two men beating the shit out of each other (nb a sport that is still pretty popular today) ppl will continue to watch. i don't see it going away anytime soon tbh.

it would like a lot for football to outright 'go away', but not as much to start reducing its share of the sports market. which obv hasn't happened yet, but way more people are talking about these things than they were 5 years ago.

but the idea of NFL just like flickering out in the near future are kinda laughable, given how popular it still is.

IMNSHO it peaked in 2015 and is going to gradually lose its share of popular attention and concern from now on until it's a weird curiosity for my grandkids

i just don't see how we get from here to there. do u just imagine massive fan disengagement? why now and not earlier? does the product become worse? do they all develop empathy? atm it sounds more like wishful thinking.

The product only gets worse from here. The farm league has its own intractable problems on that front. The coaching talent pool is as much a part of the problem as the player pool. Appropriately, at least to me, the Pats' dominance is going to be the hallmark of "when football was great." Let them own that.

Are you saying its going to deteriorate as a sport cos less men are going to want to play it in the years to come?

As long as it pays as well as it does I think the talent will continue to be there. As of yet the players quitting or refusing to play are marginal. It's still a ticket to college and a shot at fame & fortune.

i just don't see how we get from here to there.

I doubt that the injury/concussion/domestic abuse problem will drive away the current fans in appreciable numbers. A few, but not enough to hurt revenues. What might do it would be the dilution of talent on the field combined with a scandal that calls into question the legitimacy of game outcomes, such as a gambling scandal where refs or players were shaving points. A double whammy like that wouldn't force football to disappear, but it could cause a considerable defection among fans and demote it from the top spot among US sports fans.

Less children will be allowed to play. Less adults will know how to play. Less players will learn enough to coach well. The sport has already narrowed itself to where the smart play is almost always to pass and the nickel is the standard D, but marquee QBs are almost nonexistent. It's a mess.

Like boxing, there will be a certain point in the near future when players (and coaches) are obviously getting huge paychecks that have nothing to do with the quality or entertainment value of their performance. And like boxing, that's going to be how you know you're a weirdo for caring if you don't have money on the line.

Do you think Archie Manning's grandchildren will play in the NFL? That's my essay question for you.

Tombot otm. With every Duerson and Seau the player pool will shrink a little more.

they should change the game so everybody has laser tag guns and to tackle someone you gotta shoot em on a laser tag sensor on their vest and then they are down

if a horrific child molestation scandal can't knock the penn state football program into total ruin and drive its fans away let alone keep them from continuing to revere their legendary former coach, i don't think people are going care about CTE in the NFL that much.

Im sure the sport must be rife with steroid abuse. Is this something people dont care/ignore/so common no-one gives a shit?

Nobody gives a fuck about PEDs in football. Baseball crucified itself whenever someone gets popped and nfl fans just shrug and assume it's the cost of doing business to stay on the field.

Painkiller abuse is a more serious concern than steroids/HGH, IMO.

If baseball can fall from its heights during the 20th century, then so can football. What might cause that decline won't be easy or pretty, of course.

baseball is a $10b/yr business, so while it is no longer front and center, it's doing okay. also it's been pretty successful selling the nostalgia/experience of attending a game, which i can't see the nfl ever managing

this isn't really an existential threat to the nfl, but imo before long there's going to be a successful lawsuit against the ncaa and big-money college sports for leeching off amateurs, and it will be interesting to see how things shake out

To the Penn State point - sure, in State College and environs, being a diehard is acceptable. Leave town wearing your fan gear and see how that plays.

Redskins fanship is undergoing a similar issue from where I sit

also more and more players are making the news by retiring early due to CTE concerns

The NFL’s “concussion crisis” has taken its next logical step: the “retirement crisis.” On Friday, New York Jets offensive tackle and former Pro Bowler D’Brickashaw Ferguson announced his decision to retire from the NFL at 32 years old. Unlike some players who are forced to hang up their cleats after clinging to every last bit of turf in the hopes of scoring another contract but eventually retire because of debilitating body injuries, Ferguson — like around a dozen other NFL players over the past two years — has retired early without any outstanding injury or body-related issues.
[...]
San Francisco 49er Chris Borland retired at 24 years old in March 2015, saying that he didn’t want to have “any neurological diseases or die younger.” Buffalo Bills linebacker A.J. Tarpley retired at 23 years old on Wednesday, citing concussions and a desire to “preserve my future health” as his reason. Safety Husain Abdullah, 30, retired last month because he wanted a “sound mind” in the next stage of his life. Below the NFL level, 26 college football players have retired over the past three seasons because of concussions, according to Al Jazeera America.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/dbrickashaw-ferguson-nfl-early-retirement-no-surprise_us_5707c4d5e4b0c4e26a2273fa

Guys, Will Leitch is right, Luke Wilson is completely unbelievable as Roger Goodell. The NFL has won.

so cam newton got fuckin rekt last night

http://imgur.com/Mn1z9Ld?r

oof. If I went to work and that happened to me all day, pretty sure I'd quit.

broncos are dirty as fuck they all need to be fined and probably suspended since when is head to head legal? bc the qb runs sometimes so anything goes?

oof. If I went to work and that happened to me all day, pretty sure I'd quit.

No amount of money worth a traumatic brain injury imo, period.

http://verysmartbrothas.com/the-nfl-is-sociopathic-and-racist-trash-but-keep-watching-and-just-know-youre-watching-trash/

It's nice that we want to tell these people what's best for them and in some respects we are right. But the fact that not a single NFL'er has retired over this is telling. These people want to play, and even most former players, those who played under much worse safety rules and were paid much less, still say they'd do it again. The issue of parents not letting their kids play is a real concern though, but I'd reckon we won't see the effects of that for 20 years.

― frogbs, Thursday, November 7, 2013 8:36 AM

Not a call out, just noticed this and wondering if the trickle will be a flood. Linked from Tombot's article is this more insiderish article about how the NFL's players are on a whole the youngest they've been in a decade and I would have to assume ever.

ILX's own also did a piece on it:

http://deadspin.com/if-the-nfl-is-worse-now-the-reason-why-is-obvious-1786338046

there have been a lot of dumb takes on kaepernick -- and i haven't been able to bring myself to read david brooks yet -- but trent dilfer's is incredible

the NFL is absolutely the worst place to have a 'national conversation' on this shit.. its ran by a bunch of authoritarians and yes men.

nah, it's the best place. a backup qb is kneeling instead of standing for a song and it's espn's top story

i don't know that it will actually *accomplish* anything apart from highlighting racists, but still

Actually I think it is ESPN's top story because the games suck.

And the games don't just suck because the players are too inexperienced- they're being coached by the likes of the fucking Ryan twins and Jeff Fisher and and and.

it's espn's top story because espn's visitors, like the rest of the web, care more about ~controversy~ than content

see also megan rapinoe making women's soccer a flashpoint, and omg some nyfg receivers zinged a hatcats cornerback, and tim tebow's very existence

Apparently, Colin is not a great football player anymore. Who knew? In 2013, Colin was representing the Nupes well and competing against the Baltimore Ravens in the Super Bowl. In 2016, Colin is representing the Nupes well and competing with J.Cole for the 47th annual Murray’s Pomade Wokest hair award. Now, I’m sure Colin’s play hasn’t been immaculate but there’s no way a man who did this can be one protest away from irrelevancy. But, I don’t blame Colin. I blame the NFL, because it’s trash too, and if it continues on this path, I may have to take a knee.

i'm sure everyone here would agree that kaepernick's play has been erratic but as a philly fan i'm happy to admit that kelly clearly has some weird race problems

http://deadspin.com/nfl-memo-blames-plummeting-tv-ratings-on-presidential-e-1787539401

told u so

Additionally, we are challenged in comparison to the first few weeks of the 2015 and 2014 seasons, which from a ratings perspective were two of the three best starts we have had in the last 10 years. No two seasons are the same when you consider the different matchups, game windows and other factors.

Deadspin, as usual: Roger Goodell: No, It's The Fans Who Are Idiots

Let’s see: The NFL has eroded public trust by its handling of players accused of violence against women, its treatment of players suffering brain injuries during and after their careers, and treating the healthy players on the field as assholes for celebrating touchdowns. In the meantime, their product is currently terrible and they can’t figure out why ratings are way, way down. But it’s the fans who are misunderstanding things.

The Ringer: Is There Too Much Football?

blah blah blah blah link to a better story about baseball: http://awfulannouncing.com/2016/are-we-gonna-talk-about-how-good-baseballs-postseason-ratings-have-been.html

The NFL has blamed its ratings dip on competition with the presidential election. Well, that Jays-Orioles game, hardly the sexiest matchup you’ll ever see, went up against the VP debate and held its own, outdrawing CNN and MSNBC’s coverage while ranking behind FOX News. If cable news is dooming the NFL, shouldn’t it be affecting MLB even more, given that baseball is on every night, continually up against Megyn Kelly and Anderson Cooper? And yet, here we are, with baseball setting viewership records wherever you look.

But back to the Ringer story, so I can spoil the end for you!

Mulvihill said that in this changing world, he’s found himself wondering what the postelection ratings will look like. “The election is over after Week 9,” he said. “We have a gigantic game on Week 10, Dallas-Pittsburgh. Are we going to see the type of number for Dallas-Pittsburgh that we would have expected if this was a normal year?”

No, you won't. Your product sucks and your league is run by assholes from stem to stern.

I, for one, have invested more time in baseball over the last few years. Time that used to be spent on NFL.

ESPN is bleeding subscribers via lag8n on twitter

We're getting FIOS next month and they have a partial a la carte thing going on, but I don't think opting out of all the ESPNs is an option - yet.

http://highline.huffingtonpost.com/articles/en/nfl-football-moms-kids/

http://www.gq.com/story/the-concussion-diaries-high-school-football-cte

Well that was a great way to start the morning. "Now what?"

feel a little bad for thinking it, but the dad is a piece of work

holy shit, that was brutal

I would be interested to poll who here would let their kids play high school football. There's no way I would allow it.

we have a nerf football i play soft-toss with, with our five year old. i already told him this is the only football i ever want him to play, though he does enjoy running me down and tackling me.

there is another football tbf

...rugby football! lol!

but seriously, give in usa. give in

gripping article btw

I'll let my kids competitive play flag football and that's it

acknowledgement that being able to choose to not let your kids play football is to some degree a privilege

how so

sports can be a "way out" for people from underprivileged communities when american society keeps them out of other fields

i haven't read the gq article yet but this recent new yorker article is also relevant: http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/01/09/can-technology-make-football-safer

xp that's true, but most high school football players don't get college scholarships and vanishingly few will reach the pro ranks. and there are several other sports offering a 'way out' that are less destructive to mind and body

if your kid runs a 4.2 40 then i guess maybe you weigh the risks somehow, but that is basically never the case

i'm just saying if you've got a high school-age kid who's interested in playing football and has some talent, it's easier for you to say no if the perception is that he has lots of other opportunities in life to succeed than if it feels like one of the few avenues for them to succeed

this is specifically mentioned in the article i linked:

In “The U,” a 2009 ESPN documentary about the University of Miami in the late eighties, Melvin Bratton, one of Irvin’s college teammates, described football as “basically a way out of the hood.” Irvin agreed. Youth participation may be down in well-to-do communities, but the Upper East Side has never been a font of football talent. Wealthier Americans might ponder the future of football, Irvin said, but poor and middle-class kids were betting their future on football.

This socioeconomic disconnect is not unique to football: in 1965, after the second heavyweight fight between Muhammad Ali and Sonny Liston, the Times columnist Russell Baker addressed the growing abolitionist campaign against boxing, noting, “Fighters usually came from the hungry classes and were risking their brains for the titillation of the overfed.” Irvin put it this way: “When we start talking about ‘Will parents stop letting their kids play?,’ well, some parents will have that opportunity. But many will not. They will say, ‘Son, this is your best chance.’ ” Even some of the St. Thomas players were growing up in dire circumstances: one had been living in a motel, after his family lost their home; another student, whose guardian had been a drug addict, was in foster care.

did roman citizens fight in the gladiator pits? fuck no! (well, some exceptions excluded, looking at you commodus)

feel a little bad for thinking it, but the dad is a piece of work

I think that's unfair, or rather, reductive. It's all too easy to read the dad through a lens of "Jeez can you be any more stereotypical?" but I see someone who, whatever his particular beliefs or outlooks across the board and how I might disagree with them, grew up with and in an ethos and code as translated into various actions and activities that, because it worked out for him just fine (football is great, I'm successful, got a loving family) made perfect sense to carry forward with his kids. Now he's got to grapple with what that all resulted in for the rest of his days, and I think the portrayal of someone who is stuck knowing something has to happen and yet unsure what's the best way forward strikes me as understandable. It's not like he's suddenly going to drop pearls of wisdom, nor should we expect it of him; he's got his own son's words telling him not to blame football even as he wished he never played it. That's a hard combination to maintain.

I thought the end of the article was particularly dark and sad, him putting on a brave face (and why wouldn't he, again based on what we know of him) but alternating between walking his dogs and quietly drinking huge amounts in his kitchen, isolated. The high school football coach clearly isn't who he was before either. In both cases I would put it as an example of what happens when someone loses an absolute faith or surety -- they're holding on hard to what they have. And I don't think either of them, especially the dad, could be any more hurt or upset by anything that might be said to them that they haven't had to confront in themselves.

His assumption that old NFL players commit suicide because "they blew all their money and aren't famous anymore" is kinda shitty but let's face it, like half the country believed that five years ago

Nowadays I'm pretty thankful I sucked at football - I played 3 years in HS but wasn't good enough to start for a year and a half. I remember having these exact conversations when hanging out with certain teammates - "these concussions are really scary and I'm not convinced there isn't some lasting impact here"

His assumption that old NFL players commit suicide because "they blew all their money and aren't famous anymore" is kinda shitty but let's face it, like half the country believed that five years ago

And again, feeds into a pattern/adheres to wider beliefs. "Hey I'm a regular guy, would never happen to me," etc. And clearly he doesn't think that any more. If he STILL thought that, then yeah, opprobrium and then some.

yeah, it is both unfair and reductive. i feel terrible for him, knowing the role he played in it, and i admire the way he stepped up when the kid admitted he needed help.

but i had a hard time getting around his enjoyment of both 'fucking people up' when he played and watching his sons 'fuck people up.' that's an ethos and a code, but it's a shitty one, and there are ways to play football that aren't necessarily based on it. and his prior dismissal of NFL veterans with CTE as deceitful pussies showed a lack of empathy and a willful ignorance i found disturbing -- probably because it sounds exactly like a trump voter about other issues.

Not saying it isn't shitty, etc. Just that him holding onto that for so long isn't surprising. This is our society and these beliefs are recurrent and their roots are clear enough. I'm not thrilled with that at all, and I think it's terrible that it took a personal tragedy for him to question that. But again, sadly not surprising.

I'm comfortable with my privilege and will continue to judge parents harshly for letting their kids play football, regardless of socioeconomic status.

that's an ethos and a code, but it's a shitty one, and there are ways to play football that aren't necessarily based on it.

not once you get past middle school. if you didn't have the genes and couldn't keep up an insane diet/workout schedule, the way to compensate was by being extra tough and nasty

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/18454251/troubled-los-angeles-rams-rb-tre-mason-arrested-again-florida

What Bo knows now.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/columnist/bob-nightengale/2017/01/12/bo-jackson-football-cte-mlb/96492338/

the young people don't love capitalism?!? why could that possibly be?!?

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/18618138/nflpa-steer-free-agents-signing-chicago-bears-senate-bill-passed

NFL Players Association executive director DeMaurice Smith says he will tell potential free agents not to sign with the Chicago Bears should new Illinois Senate Bill 12 SA #2 pass.

The bill would adjust the Workers' Compensation Act as it applies to professional athletes, who potentially are entitled to a wage differential award. The new bill would look to eliminate those athletes from being eligible for wage differential awards after age 35.

The law currently allows players to get paid for the term of their natural life, which is set at 67 years old. Those wanting change contend pro athletes seldom play beyond age 35, so paying them until 67 because of injury is unfair and expensive.

The main read I'm seeing on the result of the big game is that it was a metaphor for the triumph of Nazism.

http://deadspin.com/lawsuit-nfl-teams-repeatedly-broke-federal-drug-laws-1793146570

I mean, it's a slapped-together rundown of some stuff from the full court document, and not really anything we didn't already know, but I wonder how much of the DEA / NFL relationship is responsible for the league being such a bunch of hardliners about marijuana, does that get them karma points to make up for handling Schedule 2 substances like breath mints?

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/18895640/former-te-jordan-cameron-lot-guys-really-love-game

The scouting season for free agency and the draft is a time when players are asked a common question: Do you love football?

Former Cleveland Browns and Miami Dolphins tight end Jordan Cameron, who recently announced that he will retire after he incurred four concussions in six seasons, called that "a great question."

"I don't think a lot of these guys love football, to be honest," Cameron told ESPN. "A lot of them don't. You play for other reasons, and every guy has their own reason. They know why, and as long as your why is really important, you keep playing without really loving football.

"Because really, who loves to get hit in 10-degree weather by a 280-pound person? Really, no one likes that. 'Do you love football?' I couldn't stand when people asked me that."

...

But though he loved his teammates, he can't look back and say he loved the game.

"Do you really love football?" he said. "A lot of guys don't really love it. There's a few guys that love it. Ray Lewis loves football. Peyton Manning. They love it. But a lot of guys don't really love this game, and there are players that will read this who will understand exactly what I'm talking about."

Yeah but these YOUNG PLAYERS man they LOVE IT that guy HE'S OLD not like these YOUNG GUYS plus he played for the browns and the dolphins I'D HATE IT TOO if I went there

looking forward to the hot takes

Jordan Cameron claimed that a lot of current NFL players "don't love the game." Oh really?

His words. Not theirs.

Hearsay isn't allowed in a court of law, so why should we allow it in the court of public opinion? Why allow one player to make claims that are unverifiable? Especially one who was, at best, the tenth ranked player at his position. Who, during his "best" season, played for the worst franchise in the NFL? Who moved on to a perennially underachieving team, one that hasn't been relevant since the peak years of Dan Marino?

What if he'd won a championship with the Patriots? Made it to the Super Bowl with the Cardinals? Made the championship game with the Packers? Heck, made the playoffs with the Chargers?

Perhaps if Jordan Cameron had played for another team, he'd be singing a different song. But right now, he's just singing like a canary.

Like any informant, his word comes from a bitter place. As believable as Sammy Gravano. And just as innocent.

What, you think he didn't give out a few concussions of his own?

Think again.

plaschke?

oh good my mimic skills are intact ;)

haha

Ah yes, THAT guy.

I fucking hate this sport so much

I didn't even bother to link the latest on Deadspin about the Redskins firing their GM for "drinking" when it's obvious the rest of their organization's upper echelon is a minimum of two sheets on any given Monday

I apologize to all other organizations for using that noun to describe the thing that Dan Snyder owns

http://deadspin.com/the-amount-of-toradol-nfl-players-use-is-scary-as-fuck-1793173870

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/18955466/san-francisco-49ers-legend-dwight-clark-diagnosed-als

Clark said he doesn't know if playing football caused the disease but he suspects that is the case. ALS has in recent years been linked to chronic traumatic encephalopathy, or CTE, the degenerative brain disease that studies have linked to athletes and others with a history of repetitive brain trauma, including concussions.

"I've been asked if playing football caused this," Clark wrote. "I don't know for sure. But I certainly suspect it did. And I encourage the NFLPA and the NFL to continue working together in their efforts to make the game of football safer, especially as it relates to head trauma."

oh and now Gale Sayers has announced he's battling dementia, and so on ad infinitum

http://www.sbnation.com/a/future-of-football

good read, thanks. none of that is going to happen, though.

idk if we're in a talent drought in 5 years b/c nobody wants their kids to play high school football, the NFL might try all sorts of goofy shit

either way if you feel guilty for watching football too much may I suggest making basketbal your main sport. the playoffs are on right now and they're really dope

it seems like the NHL playoffs are pretty exciting too, but punctuated by some dude trying to murder sid crosby and concussing the shit out of him =|

High school football is about as popular right now as it has ever been among non-school-aged adults. The breathless local media attention it gets is a big pull for impressionable teenagers, who all dream of fame and greatness.

so you're saying certain portions of oregon are into high school football? i'm gonna have to check that with frederik

https://www.theplayerstribune.com/jermichael-finley-packers-injury-retirement/

sadly parts of this are all-too-familiar

Then one day, I went out to my truck to go for a drive, and I had to go back inside because I forgot my keys. That started happening a lot. It got to the point where sometimes I’d have to go back inside two or three times because I had forgotten my keys, then my phone, then my wallet. Some days, when I’d go to pick my kids up from school, I’d get halfway to their school and have to turn around because I forgot to put the car seat in the car, even after Courtney had reminded me.

One night, we went out to dinner, and after I paid the bill and walked out of the restaurant, Courtney came up behind me with my wallet in her hand, waving it at me. I guess I had left it on the table.

“This is the third time I’ve had to pick up after you today,” she said. “What’s going on?”

Tough read

Also unfortunate that to stimulate his brain he had to get into coaching... football... to kids, including his own. Have a lot of sympathy for the guy, but by introducing kids to football as it is today, this will only continue.

It's more than likely football will continue in *some* form.

Yeah, especially since boxing still exists, albeit far from its mainstream glory days.

Not only does boxing still exist, MMA/UFC has been more-or-less mainstreamed and it's 10x as brutal.

I wonder if America could ever get on board with flag football as a spectator sport. obviously certain types of guys would no longer have careers but the NFL is becoming more of a passing league every year anyway and you'd still be able to preserve most of the fun of that part of the game (ie. Beckham catches, Aaron Rodgers bombs).

Insensitivity to *other people* being brutalized is a known human trait.

Also unfortunate that to stimulate his brain he had to get into coaching... football... to kids, including his own. Have a lot of sympathy for the guy, but by introducing kids to football as it is today, this will only continue.

yeah this was kinda my thought too. ultimately this always seems to be the case doesn't it? love for football trumps everything.

also I was wondering - does this sort of therapy produce long-term results or does it just delay the inevitable? would be great if they could actually get to stopping the progression or reversing the damage but I'm a little skeptical if that's possible.

Man, these comments from Warren Sapp will stick with you https://t.co/LjAgNxGius pic.twitter.com/fHMfM25sJY

— Lachlan Markay (@lachlan) June 21, 2017

fuckin sad

click through and watch the video, though, because Warren Sapp is still wonderful

https://www.sbnation.com/a/17776-football

yeah, i loved that

Tim Tebow CFL Chronicles was better imho

Sophomore jinx

Tom Cotton is the next President.

big fan of jon bois, glad we have at least one avant garde sportswriter out there

yeah this is bar none the strangest football article I've ever read

TTCFLC is more traditional, linear, first person storytelling; this new one feels like interactive fiction on rails to me, if that makes any sense

https://www.sbnation.com/2014/8/18/5998715/the-tim-tebow-cfl-chronicles

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/07/25/sports/football/nfl-cte.html

"A neuropathologist has examined the brains of 111 N.F.L. players — and 110 were found to have C.T.E., the degenerative disease linked to repeated blows to the head."

So the other guy was a kicker I assume?

^ post of the day

maybe one of Brett Favre's backups

Presumably, yeah. The 100 include one punter and one placekicker. 44 linemen, 7 QBs.

*110

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/20170808/baltimore-ravens-offensive-lineman-john-urschel-retires-abruptly

must have been a really tough choice, luckily it sounds like he has plenty to fall back on.

In January, Urschel told HBO's "Real Sports With Bryant Gumbel" that his passion for playing football outweighs the risks of suffering head trauma.

http://deadspin.com/super-bowl-winning-qb-jim-plunkett-my-life-sucks-1797547445

tbf, i suspect a lot of 69-year-olds need a painkiller to play golf. life expectancy for american men was 64.4 when plunkett was born

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/highschools/the-leading-edge-of-a-much-larger-iceberg-new-jersey-high-school-disbands-football-team/2017/08/22/e13b6516-836e-11e7-82a4-920da1aeb507_story.html?hpid=hp_hp-more-top-stories-2_ams-newjersey500am-1%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.702efbabf4cc

New Jersey, eh? When the trend reaches high schools in Texas, we will know that American football is in its final death throes.

FWIW, the stat/graph with the article indicates that Texas's percentage change is barely there (as opposed to growing or dropping notably).

New Jersey, eh? When the trend reaches high schools in Texas, we will know that American football is in its final death throes.

― A is for (Aimless), Wednesday, August 23, 2017 4:26 PM (forty minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Sure, but I think the map lends at least some support to the idea that youth football is becoming a more regional thing, as predicted upthread

Obviously a wealthy, heavily-Asian- and Indian-American town in New Jersey isn't home to your median high school football team though.

it's not, but every trend begins with outliers

hang on while I think of another pithy post that is yet more obvious and dumb

"we must impeach to save the union"

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/30/sports/espn-ed-cunningham-football-concussions.html

“We come back from the break and that guy with the broken leg is gone, and it’s just third-and-8”

And changes to substantially soften the exterior of football helmets, into something more like memory foam, to reduce the weight and its utility as a weapon.

I used to half-joke they should go back to leather helmets. Personally, at this point, I'd be fine with reduced contact. Body sensors, something closer to flag football. Bigger emphasis on speed and offense, but a knee down ends a play. More pushing; less hitting.

can a britisher tell me if rugby cats have the same concussion issues? the "less padding, less contact" argument is likely to be brought up more seriously again in the next year or two.

this is off topic but I sort of love this quote from Cunningham's former broadcast partner in that nyt article

“The sport is at a crossroads. I love football — college football, pro football, any kind of football. It’s a wonderful sport. But now that I realize what it can do to people, that it can turn 40-, 50-year-old men into walking vegetables, how do you stay silent? Ed was in the vanguard of this. I give him all the credit in the world. And I’m going to be outspoken on it, in part because he led me to that drinking hole.”

vanguard of walking vegetables at a crossroads - to the drinking hole!

can a britisher tell me if rugby cats have the same concussion issues? the "less padding, less contact" argument is likely to be brought up more seriously again in the next year or two.

― Chocolate-covered gummy bears? Not ruling those lil' guys out. (ulysses), Thursday, 31 August 2017 15:43 (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

It's becoming more and more of a thing, along with discussion of spinal/neck injuries caused in fucks, scrums

Uh..rucks

forkslysses, I think the argument goes more like "less padding, less velocity;" the amount of contact is probably about the same I think. Rugby union (here and elsewhere) has also been explicitly and openly concerned about concussion protocols & proper tackling technique for much, much longer than American football.

addressing / minimizing neck injuries in scrums has been an issue in rugby for like, decades, I thought

Seems to be more direct action advocated recently, partic at underage level etc

when in reference to "fucks, scrums", i certainly hope so!

Ah the nineties

Baez: #AaronHernandez had one of the most severe cases of CTE that BU researchers had seen for someone his age.

— Bob McGovern (@BobMcGovernJr) September 21, 2017

looking forward to hearing the NFL's awesome plans to move a team to London when they can't even get butts in seats in Los Angeles

wasn't there a thing about how OJ Simpson was showing a lot of symptoms of cognitive decline and dementia before the murders?

really not eager for all the shitty things these guys have done to be pinned on their CTE

indeed

well they are also assholes of course but the CTE contributes

does it

Doesn't excuse him, but does having severe brain damage cause people to make bad decisions? Probably.

ok guess i'll get ready for literally every single ex-football player ever to start beating women and murdering people

do you have advanced cte my man?

it's p much the medical consensus that it causes aggression and impulsive behaviour in sufferers. might this contribute to them committing violent crime? all signs point to yes. would it necessarily lead to violent crime, especially in pleasant people who haven't had a pattern of behaviour of physically harming others? no.

I'm not sure where this is going but it seems ridiculous and CF-ish. nobody is absolving anyone of their fucking crimes

Don't think anyone is saying CTE always causes people to do violent things, but it's hard not to see it as a contributing factor in a case like this.

I doubt it's gonna hold up as a legal defense if that's what you're worried about

after watching a few OJ docs you can clearly see a difference in the dude's demeanor and speech between the 70's and the 90's. a think a lot of ex-NFLers have talked about CTE making them more prone to violence or "losing their mind" or whatever. obviously not *excusing* any of that but I feel like it's at least as much a factor in stuff like this as say, alcohol often is

saying cte is a contributing factor or causes aggression and impulsive behavior in sufferers is like halfway to absolving them of their crimes. otherwise why would you be mentioning it? or are you saying that they had physical conditions that lead to violent behavior but that they are nevertheless 100 percent responsible for their crimes

NA making the classic error of mistaking an explanation for an excuse.

if you don't think this is going to be turned into an excuse you're kidding yourself

man, I don't know how to answer questions like that. nobody absolves drunk people for doing things that they otherwise would never have done sober.

i am completely perplexed by your line of thinking. do you not believe in the ability for brain disorders to affect people's behaviour? are you mad at reality?

Yes, someone impaired by brain damage bears less culpability for doing a murder than someone not impaired by brain damage. I don't see the issue there. They can still be culpable enough to jail for six months until they hang themselves in their cell because every day is a waking nightmare.

I'm now retrospectively mad at my grandmother because she acted like an asshole sometimes when she had alzheimer's

really not eager for all the shitty things these guys have done to be pinned on their CTE

― na (NA), Thursday, September 21, 2017 4:03 PM (twenty-four minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this is literally all i have to say about this, i don't know why i'm bothering with any of the rest of it. the nfl is garbage, if you watch it you're complicit, have fun, bye

otherwise why would you be mentioning it?

because it is of interest on a thread where we discuss why this sport should not continue to exist in its current form. one of the reasons being that it helps create murderers by selecting people who may already be inclined to violent aggression and then paying them to hit their heads repeatedly until they are insensate, over a course of several years.

i'm willing to give bad people a few percentage points of theoretical absolution if i can in turn pin them on the league

i can't really even watch the game anymore, I just follow some of the stories like this and occasionally check boxscores. it's mostly CTE-related but also just the culture around the entire league in this day and age seems more and more garbage.

four of the ten people in our office talk about pro football way too damn much, really hoping this whole death spiral picks up speed

There are already so many reasons to stop watching the NFL. I don't need "CTE might make 'em murder people". "CTE might make 'em commit suicide to figure out why their brain won't stop screaming" was plenty.

The couple guys who shot themselves in the chest to make sure their brains could be examined is just the most devastating detail of all this to me

The link between traumatic brain injuries and increased violence and other psychiatric disorders is pretty clear at this point.

What kind of finalized it for me was the fact that it seems that CTE is also just the result of the day-to-day low-level physical punishment incurred from playing football, just the "regular" hits, not just the ones where a guy stands up and can't remember his name for a minute.

To be completely frank, what finally did it for me was XLIX. It's good that now I can support my argument against the atrocious joke of a sport that is american football based on medical science, but tbrr the game has been bullshit for years. The vast majority of the owners in the cartel are completely uninterested in parity or winning, and have no ties to their stadium towns. It's not remotely entertaining anymore. To wit, Magary's column today:

Now, I could bitch all day at the NFL to do something about all of these problems in order to field a better product, but you and I know that’ll never happen. The NFL worked very hard to cultivate all of their entrenched, long-term woes, and they’re not going away anytime soon. What they need, then, is a cheat. They need a cheap, quick fix to help polish the turd, and I think I have just the kind of ridiculous, shortsighted answer they might require:

Legalize holding.

https://www.sbnation.com/2017/9/19/16314082/nfl-ratings-colin-kaepernick-los-angeles-rams-owners-money

url kinda covers it all huh

that's just seo. it's a pretty good piece, though it could have gone in harder. also IT MENTIONS ESPORTS HI TOMBOT

I didn't need SB Nation to tell me the NFL is boring as hell these days.

i have heard the cartel argument for a few years now. no argument.
the death spiral thread is way more active than the week three thread on a game night.

tbf tho these teams

.@criscarter80: Yes, I’m scared but football has given me everything I love.

An emotional Cris Carter on CTE in the NFL. Via @FTFonFS1 pic.twitter.com/X2d9Dkc16Y

— FOX Sports (@FOXSports) September 22, 2017

sad to see how he contradicts himself again and again in that monologue

more or less saying my brain may be toast later but it was worth it. will sing a different tune i reckon if his brain goes south at a young age.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DKXvMddW4AArTng.jpg:small

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/22/opinion/aaron-hernandez-cte.html

This will be like trying to figure out Ice cube's good day. "What game was he watching when..."

Xp

I should know better than to ask but is that presumably Trump quote real

the NFL is good again, I'm a fan now. thanks Trump.

I’m so conflicted right now

he repeats stuff so often in that quote that it starts to sound like a weird folk song.

"when the nfl ratings are down (massively, massively)" - a song for accordion and men's choir.

https://deadspin.com/report-california-class-action-lawsuit-against-pop-war-1819751848

Researchers confirm CTE detected for first time in a live person, according to exam of ex-NFL player https://t.co/Cxv3l0HUtj

— Chicago Tribune (@chicagotribune) November 15, 2017

https://pixel.nymag.com/imgs/daily/intelligencer/2017/11/22/magazine/22-leitch.nocrop.w710.h2147483647.jpg
Panthers vs. Bears, October 22. Photo: Scott Boehm/AP Photo

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2017/11/leitch-is-this-the-end-of-the-nfl.html

A few weeks ago, sportscaster Bob Costas told a group of students at the University of Maryland that “the reality is that this game destroys people’s brains” and that “the whole thing could collapse like a house of cards if people actually begin connecting the dots.” Costas is a smart man, and more than that, he is a survivor: One of the skills of his career has been understanding which way the winds are blowing and adjusting accordingly. For the past several years, he was the host of the pregame show for the most-watched NFL game every week, Football Night in America. He left the show this year and has been speaking out against the NFL ever since. For the past few years, it was reasonable to wonder whether defending the NFL was going to put you on the wrong side of history. It is becoming increasingly clear that that history is nigh.

https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2017/12/5/16737164/steelers-bengals-dangerous-hits-ryan-shazier-vontaze-burfict-joe-mixon

Rough night

“I don’t like seeing that kind of football,” Gruden said.

“It’s an ugly night,” McDonough said

earlier in the broadcast both of these guys were constantly bemoaning all the penalty flags that were being thrown, and at one point Gruden started praising Burfict, implying that his willingness to get fined was part of what made him a great player to watch. can't have it both ways I guess.

will nfl return to leather helmets

excellent piece on the american football death spiral https://thebaffler.com/salvos/downward-spiral-roth

I assume at some point the NFL owners will decide that they don’t actually need anyone to play football during a football telecast.

Just 12 hours of fighter jet flybys, national anthems, breast cancer awareness, and artfully thrown penalty flags.

I’m glad for the revive because I needed to post this:
https://verysmartbrothas.theroot.com/forget-about-colin-kaepernick-i-think-im-done-with-the-1821136817

It was the first time in a long time that I just decided not to watch an entire Steelers game. And while I missed the game, I didn’t actually miss it.

Damon didn't miss that feeling of being slightly distracted and intermittently entertained, interspersed with dozens of commercials and frequent tedium?

https://deadspin.com/fox-is-seeking-los-angeles-area-actors-who-can-pretend-1821152419

lol that url stub is very good

also the rams being one of the best teams immediately upon moving to LA and still not attracting any fans is a victory for humanity

whenever i'm talking football w/friends around here in L.A., I always try to mention "The San Diego Chargers" at least once and i've never once been corrected.

gaining two NFL teams no one wanted, teams that historically possess the exact same color scheme, is a recipe for hilarity.

not sure if this has been covered other places but a bunch of NFL Network/ESPN analysts/x-players have been accused of sexual misconduct/harassment and have been suspended for now.

In it, she names producers and on-air talent as subjecting her to unlawful discrimination and retaliation. Those named include former executive producer Eric Weinberger, who is now president of the Bill Simmons Media Group, as well as current and former on-air TV analysts Marshall Faulk, Ike Taylor, Warren Sapp and Heath Evans.

also Mcnabb and Eric Davis from ESPN.

https://www.si.com/tech-media/2017/12/12/nfl-network-sexual-harassment-jami-cantor-lawsuit-faulk-mcnabb-weinberger

espn execs walking slowly backwards like there is nothing to see in our company culture

hopefully chris berman gets lit up for real this time

does he have a history with this i don't know about?

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/11/10/report-espn-settles-sexual-harassment-claim-involving-chris-berman/

missed that entirely. not too surprising sadly.

Read the oral history of ESPN book by the guy who did the SNL oral history

Basically, it was a frat house and I wouldn't be shocked to see stuff about anyone that worked there

not sure if this has been covered other places but a bunch of NFL Network/ESPN analysts/x-players have been accused of sexual misconduct/harassment and have been suspended for now.

In it, she names producers and on-air talent as subjecting her to unlawful discrimination and retaliation. Those named include former executive producer Eric Weinberger, who is now president of the Bill Simmons Media Group, as well as current and former on-air TV analysts Marshall Faulk, Ike Taylor, Warren Sapp and Heath Evans.
also Mcnabb and Eric Davis from ESPN.

https://www.si.com/tech-media/2017/12/12/nfl-network-sexual-harassment-jami-cantor-lawsuit-faulk-mcnabb-weinberger

― Spottie, Tuesday, December 12, 2017 12:50 PM (two hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Simmons has certainly been a purveyor of toxic masculinity in the past but to his credit he's evolved and The Ringer is a progressive, gender-equitable site, so while I see Weinbeger has already been placed on indefinite leave, hopefully he'll be swiftly axed assuming these allegations hold up.

xp mike tirico was suspended for harassment and stalking at ESPN--he's about to be the face of NBC's Olympics coverage and I wouldn't surprised if people dredge up his old allegations

wouldnt be surprised by just about anything at this point. hoping that stu scott is clean tho.

ugh at this letter

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/21846807/baltimore-ravens-send-letter-fans-noticeable-no-shows-home-games

bigger ugh at ESPN's sidebar headline, "Ravens admit protest has led to fan no-shows", as if it's the actual case and not some excuse, not an old white dude attempting to save face and distance himself and the franchise from the social issues that led to that one-time protest in London.

yeah, fuck this

these ppl are so caught in their own damn web

https://academic.oup.com/brain/advance-article/doi/10.1093/brain/awx350/4815697

These results indicate that closed-head impact injuries, independent of concussive signs, can induce traumatic brain injury as well as early pathologies and functional sequelae associated with chronic traumatic encephalopathy.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/early-lead/wp/2018/01/18/a-new-study-shows-that-hits-to-the-head-not-concussions-cause-cte/

Here's every concussion in the NFL this year pic.twitter.com/zyzwciboSj

— Josh Begley (@joshbegley) February 1, 2018

Aside from the concussion issue
as a fan of football, I think there's something to the fact that football on NFL and college level for the past decade have been dominated by Belechik/Patriots and Saban/Alabama, who are really two of the most anti-charismatic/joyless operations in the history of sports....just grim hyper competence....just comparing it to say guys like Steve Kerr or Popovich in the NBA who seem like really cool, smart guys

also like...the Cleveland Indians are not handling their team name and mascot issue particularly well but they're moving a bit forward and MLB is pressuring them, which is SOMETHING, whereas in the NFL Goodell is just standing w/Snyder and that terrible team's inarguably racist name. They should be contracted.

i really don't have much positive to say about the league or sport or most of its prominent players tbh.

RIP football

No one on Jeopardy knew anything about football 😂 pic.twitter.com/EomJWawkWF

— Yahoo Sports (@YahooSports) February 2, 2018

i coulda won a lot of money

lmao

Then there's this piece

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/02/opinion/sunday/nfl-cte-brain-damage.html

bananas

https://www.si.com/nfl/2018/05/22/anthem-rules-kneeling-penalties-home-team-stay-locker-room-roger-goodell

if both teams kneel, the penalties offset and they'll replay the anthem

lol

the crowd should kneel