Let's talk about Trayvon Martin, George Zimmerman, and how unbelievably fucked up this all is

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/03/18/446768/what-everyone-should-know-about-about-trayvon-martin-1995-2012/

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/17/2700249/shooter-of-trayvon-martin-a-habitual.html

http://mediamatters.org/blog/201203190005

the miami herald piece is highly recommended

Zimmerman told neighbors about stolen laptops and unsavory characters. Ibrahim Rashada, a 25-year-old African American who works at U.S. Airways, once spotted young men cutting through the woods entering the complex on foot, and later learned items were stolen those days.

“It’s a gated community, but you can walk in and steal whatever you want,” Rashada’s wife, Quianna, said.

They discussed the topic with Zimmerman when the watch captain knocked on their door late last year. Zimmerman seemed friendly, helpful, and a “pretty cool dude,” Ibrahim Rashada said.

“He came by here and talked about carrying guns and getting my wife more involved with guns,” he said. “He said I should have a weapon and that his wife took classes to learn how to use one.

“I do have a weapon, but I don’t walk around the neighborhood with mine!”

Actually, he does not walk around the neighborhood at all.

“I fit the stereotype he emailed around,” he said. “Listen, you even hear me say it: ‘A black guy did this. A black guy did that.’ So I thought, ‘Let me sit in the house. I don’t want anyone chasing me.’ ”

For walks, he goes downtown. A pregnant Quianna listened to her husband’s rationale, dropped her head, and cried.

“That’s so sad,” she said. “I hope our child doesn’t have to go through that.”

Travis Williams, a black 16-year-old who wears dreadlocks, said last year a man came to his house and accused him of stealing a bicycle. The police even came and checked the serial numbers on the bike in his garage.

Problems in the 6-year-old community started during the recession, when foreclosures forced owners to rent out to “low-lifes and gangsters,” said Frank Taaffe, a former neighborhood block captain.

“Just two weeks before this shooting, George called me at my girlfriend’s house to say he saw some black guy doing surveillance at my house, because I had a left a window open,” Taaffe said. “He thwarted a potential burglary of my house.”

Taaffe sounded chagrined when he noted that the complex is now majority-minority. Census figures show Retreat at Twin Lakes is 49 percent white, non-Hispanic, 23 percent Hispanic, 20 percent African-American and 5 percent Asian.

Everything about this story makes me so fucking angry I can barely see straight.

otm

I never sign online petitions but I did for this

it's so fucked up

Ta-Nehisi is of course on fire with all this. His latest:

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/03/sanfords-police-chief-is-the-real-victim-of-racism/254723/

I haven't had the courage to listen to the 9-1-1 calls on this, but judging from my fb feed they are fucked up

Zimmerman told police that was him crying for help and that Trayvon started the fight.

so it was him that was crying for help, and he happened to stop crying exactly when he fired the shot - makes tons of sense

The Orlando Sentinel reports that 16 states have adopted laws similar to Florida's since its landmark bill was passed in 2005. Those laws are regularly backed by the National Rifle Association.

leaves out the part where the NRA also drafts the 'stand your ground' legislation

one of the more frustrating parts of this story is that it's pretty clear what that Zimmerman guy was all about, but no one could really step in and stop him before something like this inevitably happened.

Taaffe sounded chagrined when he noted that the complex is now majority-minority. Census figures show Retreat at Twin Lakes is 49 percent white, non-Hispanic, 23 percent Hispanic, 20 percent African-American and 5 percent Asian.

so 49 percent white and 48 percent minority? doesn't add up to majority-minority (or 100 percent, which might be the source of the confusion)... obviously not important at all but just weird from a reporting standpoint.

i think they're citing the figures to correct taaffe's assertion that the complex is majority-minority

would be more clear if they were directly quoting him i guess

what are the other 3%?

I don't get why a civilian just bothering pedestrians (while armed!) is presumed to be fine? isn't the fact that he got out of his car incriminating enough?

it basically seems like you can walk around Florida accosting people and when one inevitably resists you get to shoot them.

it's rather difficult to get a quail hunting license in florida

it basically seems like you can walk around Florida accosting people and when one inevitably resists you get to shoot them.

this kind of fits what I think of Florida tbh

A police officer “corrected” a key witness. “The officer told the witness, a long-time teacher, it was Zimmerman who cried for help, said the witness. ABC News has spoken to the teacher and she confirmed that the officer corrected her when she said she heard the teenager shout for help.” [ABC News]

13. Three witnesses say they heard a boy cry for help before a shot was fired. “Three witnesses contacted by The Miami Herald say they saw or heard the moments before and after the Miami Gardens teenager’s killing. All three said they heard the last howl for help from a despondent boy.” [Miami Herald]

14. The officer in charge of the crime scene also received criticism in 2010 when he initially failed to arrest a lieutenant’s son who was videotaped attacking a homeless black man. [New York Times]

DJP otm

whoah this is the first I'd heard of any of this... creepily, the Zimmerman quotes/descriptions remind me of these e-mails my condo assn periodically gets from one of our members who has taken it upon himself to act as "building security" (to wit):

Be careful this morning folks. I was followed and had to retreat and stand my ground early this morning.While being followed. I returned back to the gate and had to stare this fellow down as he did the same to me.He came no further just stood on the corner and stared.He was pacing the buliding when he saw me come out .I went up the hill a bit to evade him.Few minutes I turned back to head Up York As I continue towards 20th I saw him again and he tried to sneak me,but he realized I had seen him.Turning towards me he tried to approach. I turned and headed back for the gate. Stood there. He came no further,but stared me down as he stood on York. I realized he had to know we are protected.Starred him down.I Wanted him to know We are protected..Could not see his face well ..

I find this guy deeply creepy. anyway, carry on...

shakey, that dude sounds beyond creepy

really hope that guy doesnt have a gun

he "patrols" the "building perimeter" every morning at 4am. nothing suspicious about that, nope.

You should call the cops on him.

it's occurred to me.

Not that I'm suggesting cops wouldn't act just as creepy. But at least it would blow the guy's mind.

actually had a recent case here in Austin that was pretty similar: http://www.statesman.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/austin/blotter/entries/2012/02/03/man_killed_in_early_morning_sh.html?cxntfid=blogs_the_blotter

that story doesn't mention it, but there was another one where a neighbor talked about how paranoid they guy was.

“We are taking a beating over this,” said Lee, who defends the investigation. “This is all very unsettling. I’m sure if George Zimmerman had the opportunity to relive Sunday, Feb. 26, he’d probably do things differently. I’m sure Trayvon would, too.”

un-fucking-believeable.

it seems like zimmerman will eventually go down, but this entire thing is obv severely depressing from start to finish

If Zimmerman isn't at least arrested for this, I will go to Florida and build a jail cell with my own two hands and drag him bodily into it.

time asking the tough questions http://newsfeed.time.com/2012/03/19/trayvon-martins-murder-was-the-motive-self-defense-or-racism/

i have faith that eric holder and the justice department will set this right

http://timenewsfeed.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/trayvon-martin-and-george-zimmerman.jpg?w=600&h=400&crop=1

okay so the guy on the right is a white guy...?

my habitual hunt for the creepiest commentary i can find has revealed some white people who are very angry zimmerman is being called a white person by the media, since he is clearly hispanic and probably jewish.

his father called him a "Spanish-speaking minority" in a press release

I'm not angry really, just confused

lots of hispanic ppl identify as white

that's news to me

ok

wow really wish I just did not bother to google "George Zimmerman Jewish"

I live in a heavily latino neighborhood and have lived my whole life around latinos - literally never heard anyone assert that.

I have met a small number of latino Jews (Arturo Ripstein! total bro) but that's kind of rare.

xp

it's also a german name -- it basically means carpenter

i've definitely filled out forms (maybe even the census?) where "non-hispanic caucasian" was an option

in california they used to say "white not of hispanic origin"

yeah, that's what it is

“We are taking a beating over this,” said Lee, who defends the investigation. “This is all very unsettling. I’m sure if George Zimmerman had the opportunity to relive Sunday, Feb. 26, he’d probably do things differently. I’m sure Trayvon would, too.”

what the fuck is this? by not being outside while black? not going to 7-11 to get iced tea and skittles?

and of course his main concern is the negative attention his department is receiving because of this

My black twitter friends tell me that this case is worse because the 17 year old was killed for nothing more than being black. But is the black 17 year old killed accidently by a drive by shooting any more dead than Trayvon? Again, is that any less tragic??

In my twitter conversations I was schooled on “wealth disparities,” and “racial disparities,” and how I was “someone operating in whiteness” that couldn’t possibly understand.

http://blog.chron.com/texassparkle/2012/03/the-tragedy-of-trayvon-martin/

(More on that “white” part later)

Um...there's at least a chance that the shooter in a drive by will be brought to justice. That possibility seems to be in jeopardy in this case, which is most of why it's a big deal and getting a large amount of attention.

what does "it's a gated community but you can walk in and steal whatever you want" mean?

You can cut through the woods.

It doesn't matter what race Zimmerman identifies as. The racism here is an entrenched, institutional part of the justice system: If you want to be nearly assured of getting the death penalty, kill a white female; if you want to give yourself good odds of never being charged, kill a black male. Doesn't matter the race of the perpetrator.

I agree that it doesn't matter. was just perplexed when I saw the guy's photo

quote sounded like armed vigilante was their only option once thieves got past the gate.

texassparkle's bio: "I'm a conservative activist. I blog at The Houston Chronicle, RightWingNews, Newsbusters, and my own site."

so yeah, trolling.

xp Rashada doesn't sound like he approves of what Zimmerman did. He just has an opinion about the security of his housing development.

from all accounts it honestly sounds like zimmerman is mentally unstable, paranoid and completely unfit to carry around a weapon. and racist as hell, of course, but i get the sense that a factor in the institutional protection for him is happening because the police force that should be arresting him feels guilty that they ever let him have his power in the first place.

also MEGA RACISM, but i can't stop thinking about how CREEPY this guy's specific brand of sociopathy is.

also heavily annoyed that signing petitions for his arrest or just signal boosting in general isn't happening at a millionth of the same pace as jason russell's funtime-let's-all-kill-an-irrelevant-warlord campaign last week.

DOJ apparently taking over the case

also phone records show Martin had called his girlfriend minutes before the shooting, her name is being withheld at the moment but she has stated how Martin said how Zimmerman was pursuing him, he put his hood up because a guy was watching him?

this is so totally fucked, all of it

this is so terrible. I started to listen to the call but I just can't. I hope the DOJ gets this asshole into a federal prison ASAP.

What is the federal angle on the case?

the state is too pathetic to lock up its dangerous citizens?

you have really never heard of white latino/hispanic as a category? it's basically a race v. ethnicity question i.e. what matters more to people as a meaningful moniker/identifier.

many xps

sincerely, your whitish-tannish-sometimes olive-complected latino correspondant

(fyi I know that's not specifically a valid federal case, I'm just mad)

The Department of Justice's statement said:

"The department will conduct a thorough and independent review of all of the evidence and take appropriate action at the conclusion of the investigation. The department also is providing assistance to and cooperating with the state officials in their investigation into the incident. With all federal civil rights crimes, the government must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that a person acted intentionally and with the specific intent to do something which the law forbids – the highest level of intent in criminal law. Negligence, recklessness, mistakes and accidents are not prosecutable under the federal criminal civil rights laws."

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/os-trayvon-martin-doj-investigation-20120320,0,6763029.story

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/os-trayvon-martin-doj-investigation-20120320,0,6763029.story

whoops, beat me to it

That police chief really is a piece of work. He really does have no sense of what a fool he sounds, I guess.

right so hate crime law I guess? IDK on one hand I guess I'm glad the feds will take this away from fla, but otoh wouldn't it be pretty hard to demonstrate that this was actually a hate crime? I mean obv the fact that the kid was black is a big part of why he is now dead, but it looks more like Zimmerman was a paranoid racist asshole who imagined he was protecting his gated community, not a guy out to intimidate black people in general.

Not necessarily hate crime law, counselor, you should know better!

i mean, i really have no idea -- is pursuing someone with a loaded weapon a clear indicator of malicious intent? i think there it's clear that zimmerman saw martin as criminal because he was black, and that he pursued martin because he thought he was criminal.

http://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/entries/trayvon-martin-case-sent-to-grand-jury

but can you string those together and argue that zimmerman pursued and shot martin because he was black? that's certainly how i see it going down but i don't know if that's enough to make a case xp

what "federal civil rights statutes" would cover this besides hate crime laws?

Maybe a failure to charge Zimmerman amounts to some 14th amendment equal protection/due process violation?

no way

Way. It's a tough argument, but doable.

as i understand the case, one of the biggest problems any possible prosecution faces is that while lots of people saw/heard the lead-up and immediate aftermath, george zimmerman is the only direct, living witness to the encounter and shooting itself. he made sure of that. his version of events is therefore all anyone really has to go on, absent forensic evidence that might seem to dispute it. i mean, zimmerman says trayvon martin attacked him. even if we have every reason to doubt his character and state of mind, i suspect that his story will be awfully difficult to unambiguously disprove in a court of law. all the hypothetical prosecution seems to have at this point are a few witnesses who say they heard trayvon call for help (or think they heard trayvon, or w/e).

if this case ever does go to trial, it's going to be very interesting to see what a jury makes of it. half suspect that a hung jury would be the outcome every time.

i mean, i really have no idea -- is pursuing someone with a loaded weapon a clear indicator of malicious intent? i think there it's clear that zimmerman saw martin as criminal because he was black, and that he pursued martin because he thought he was criminal.

(not personally but) legally speaking, i don't think it's at all "clear that zimmerman saw martin as criminal because he was black". i imagine that the defense's argument would be that zimmerman saw martin as a criminal because he was behaving "erratically" or "suspiciously".

honestly, i'm disappointed that the DOJ is apparently only (?) investigating the possibility of a hate-crimes prosecution, rather than pushing for a murder/manslaughter charge.

With all federal civil rights crimes, the government must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that a person acted intentionally and with the specific intent to do something which the law forbids – the highest level of intent in criminal law. Negligence, recklessness, mistakes and accidents are not prosecutable under the federal criminal civil rights laws."

loading the deck a little here, no?

if this case ever does go to trial, it's going to be very interesting to see what a jury makes of it.

What a jury will make of this concerns me, frankly.

george zimmerman is the only direct, living witness to the encounter and shooting itself. he made sure of that. his version of events is therefore all anyone really has to go on

so one could conceivably kill anyone, on a whim, and as long as no-one else saw it claim it was self defense and get away with it? really? for real?

Murder and manslaughter aren't federal crimes, are they? Those prosecutions are left to the state. The federal case would be for violating his civil rights (by making him dead).

Yeah, I don't think this should be investigated as a hate crime even though it's pretty clear that race was a factor. But I'm starting to feel like any possible justice that gets done as a result of this tragedy will be tangential to the incident in question.

even if we have every reason to doubt his character and state of mind, i suspect that his story will be awfully difficult to unambiguously disprove in a court of law.

Trials . . . do not work that way?

well, that's the risk you run when you get courts involved btwn perps and justice /dredd

his version of events is therefore all anyone really has to go on, absent forensic evidence that might seem to dispute it.

was there forensic evidence taken from the scene?

i think the local cops forensically investigated that the guy killed was black, unsure as to how much further it went tbh

i am going to be for real here i don't care how it's done i want that dude in jail. jenny's point brings up the larger issue that is so upsetting from reading about this case, though; gated communities and institutionalized racism and the irony that white people think black people are so scary when really black people are terrified of white people because look what happens.

Bringing a federal charge of civil rights violation in a murder case has always been an end run around local prosecutors who are sitting on their hands. Yes, it is a convoluted way to get justice, but it works.

If local prosecutors fail to bring this to a grand jury, or the grand jury fails to indict, I think bringing a federal charge would be OK by me. It is so fucking obvious what happened and Zimmerman is lying his head off.

send in gene hackman imo

there are a billion and one factoids going around about this -- has it been mentioned that martin was on the phone when this happened?

the girl on the phone apparently told him to run and he wouldn't

xp There's also circumstantial evidence - what was in Trayvon's pockets, the phone call to his girlfriend, the 911 call. Plus credibility arguments that the defense will make about Zimmerman - he's a racist, paranoid lunatic. Plus discrediting the prosecution by showing evidence of all the shoddy police work. It's not just about witnesses and forensics.

Yeah, horseshoe, I just... I'm worried about a Florida jury convicting a guy for "standing his ground" and "protecting his community."

Via one of the bloggers at John Cole's place:

"Stand Your Ground" Law Goes Too Far

You can’t say we weren’t warned.

Back in 2005, opponents of Florida’s first-of-its-kind “stand your ground” law said it wouldn’t be long before we’d see shootouts in the streets — all in the name of self-defense.

Prodded by their NRA masters, lawmakers waved off those predictions as exaggerations. Then they overwhelmingly passed a bill that took the “castle doctrine” to infinity and beyond. The “castle doctrine” used to mean you could use deadly force if someone attacked you in your home. “Stand your ground” not only absolved the homeowner of any obligation to retreat, it extended that concept outside the home

Gov. Jeb Bush couldn’t sign the bill fast enough.

I haven’t heard of any fatal disputes over the grocery check-out line, but in 2010 an unarmed man was shot and killed at a park near Tampa in a dispute over skateboarding rules. The victim’s 10-year-old daughter watched her father die. A judge is currently considering whether the shooter merely stood his ground.

In 2008, a 15-year-old boy was killed during a shootout between two gangs in Tallahassee. Nobody was held accountable for the crime because a judge, citing the law, dismissed the charges.

And in January, a former Broward County sheriff’s deputy shot and wounded a homeless man inside a Häagen-Dazs ice cream shop in Miami Lakes. He said the man was threatening him and his family. Police said charges were unlikely in that case as well.

In fact, the number of justifiable homicides has significantly increased since the law went into effect, according to the Florida Department of Law Enforcement.

From 2000 to 2005, an average of 13 killings by private citizens were deemed justified each year. Between 2006 and 2010 that average increased to 36 killings per year. The highest was in 2009 at 45.

That first bit is a big xp to contenderizer about what kind of evidence is at play.

Also, the first defense should be "prosecution," obv. And the defense will try to discredit the prosecution. Yikes, I need a do-over.

i think the local cops forensically investigated that the guy killed was black, unsure as to how much further it went tbh

I lol'd

Didn't Trayvon have a cellphone on him, and isn't it missing?

man i remember when i was in middle school when the "stand your ground law" went into place and even every single kid was just like "ha, this is crazy! florida!!"

i distinctly remember friends joking a few times during or after stupid kid hijinks (egging houses or whatever) like "you know someone could just shoot us and it would be legal"

thankfully we were white tho

hah

jesus fucking christ

i guess the right-wing argument would be that trayvon should have had a gun of his own, so that he could "protect himself"

then everything would have been awesome

i think the right-wing argument is that he was probably up to no good. see police chief lee's statement that he's sure martin would have done things differently if he had the night to do over again.

sorry i'm mad

either you or i misunderstand the right-wing argument, if you think that it is 'give black kids guns'

i think the right-wing argument is that he was probably up to no good. see police chief lee's statement that he's sure martin would have done things differently if he had the night to do over again.

would've bought a 9mm instead of skittles amirite

the right wing argument is, i believe, zimmerman is actually mexican so it can't be a hate crime.

the right-wing argument is that being young and black and male and out at night is essentially a criminal act in an of itself

xxxp otm

huh i thought we were all supposed to have guns so that when a problem occurred we could level them at each other to defuse the situation

it is of course not going to be the 'right wing argument' but I wish someone would write a trolling article that explains why trayvon should have been armed to act in his self defense. just to BLOW MINDS.

to protect himself from predatory criminals

all minors should be issued guns with their drivers' permits

Zimmerman calls Martin racial slur on 911 call

i think the metastory is that the right has basically ignored this

"obama's" DOJ getting involved will probably wake them up tho

muslim president stealin our lawmakin

Zimmerman calls Martin racial slur on 911 call

^^^welp, there's yr federal case

yeah he definitely says "fucking coon" under his breath on that 911 call. presumably that would help with the hate crimes prosecution? also fuck everything.

also just fyi the zimmermans of the world: 911 is not for reporting the fact that people are walking around neighborhoods

also fuck everything

otm

i cant stop thinking about shakeys crazy neighbor, really hope that dude doesnt have a gun

like, this guy seemed to call 911 A LOT. about EVERYTHING. obviously it's small beer in the scheme of things but aren't serial 911 abusers supposed to be punished somehow?

i bet the 911 operators just love these rent-a-cops constant calls about people walking around neighborhoods

im probably stretching but i think these guys are are a recognizable "type"--there's definitely a violent fantasy at work, something they rehearse and fantasize repeatedly about as much as any compulsive killer.

i was told at some point as a kid that each call to 911 costs some hundreds amount of $, and calling it when it wasn't needed could get you in big trouble

i find it hard to see this current situation as anything other than one individual stalking and killing another.

i cant stop thinking about shakeys crazy neighbor, really hope that dude doesnt have a gun

he's black himself, wouldn't be surprised if there's some paranoia feedback loop in action or something

i feel like the 911 call was to somehow validate everything he was feeling to himself, like "the cops are on my side here"

he's probably like "man why are all these people givin me suspicious looks, I'm just out here looking for suspicious people at 4 in the morning"

xp

Moreon that last phone call Martin made. If there's no indictment on this thing . . .

The pair's phone logs, obtained by ABC News, show they spoke just five minutes before police responded to reports of a shooting at the gated community in Sanford, Fla.

Recounting her conversation with Martin, the teen girl said, "He said this man was watching him, so he put his hoodie on. He said he lost the man."

"I asked Trayvon to run, and he said he was going to walk fast. I told him to run but he said he was not going to run," she said.

After a few minutes, the girl said, Martin thought he was safe. But eventually the man appeared again.

"Trayvon said, 'What are you following me for?'" the girl said. "And the man said, 'What are you doing here?' Next thing I hear is somebody pushing, and somebody pushed Trayvon because the [phone’s\] headset just fell."

The line went dead, the girl said.

"I called him again and he didn't answer the phone," she said.

honestly i can't wrap my mind around the self-defense rationale, how is it self-defense if the entire series of events amounted to Zimmerman instigating and escalating the conflict??

oh man, that girl's account. :( this is the worst story.

I guess it's just my personal feeling that hate crime laws should be reserved for cases where the point of the crime is to express hate or to intimidate a racial group, not just cases where racial bias played a significant role. At the same time, given the joke that is Florida justice in cases like this, I won't actually be unhappy with Feds intervening.

i think zimmerman certainly intended to intimidate a racial group. he viewed it as self-defense against that racial group's depravity. that's hatred, isn't it?

i don't know how i feel about hate crimes legislation but george zimmerman needs to be off the streets.

I guess it's just my personal feeling that hate crime laws should be reserved for cases where the point of the crime is to express hate or to intimidate a racial group, not just cases where racial bias played a significant role.

The distinction you believe you are making is nonexistent.

djp otmfm

yeah that's more to the point

I don't agree, because I think there are different levels of intent at work. "I'm going to kill that black guy because he's black" is different than "I'm going to kill that black guy because I am suspicious of what he's doing in my gated community (in large part because I have a warped perception of black people)" even as fucked up as the latter is.

Hate crime legislation exists specifically because racial bias has done a wonderful job of keeping people from actually being prosecuted under existing statutes for crimes that already exist. If the police department had done its job and if Florida didn't have this insane "stand your ground" law, the Federal government wouldn't need to investigate this at all, let alone invoke any hate crime statutes.

Seriously, Hurting, BAIL on that argument. ABORT!! ABORT!!!!!

By your logic, it's not a hate crime for a white neighbor to burn a cross on the lawn of the only black family in town.

"I'm going to kill that black guy because he's black" is different than "I'm going to kill that black guy because I am suspicious of what he's doing in my gated community (in large part because I have a warped perception of black people)" even as fucked up as the latter is.

I don't see the difference

One is racist assholism with delusion, one is racist assholism without?

By your logic, it's not a hate crime for a white neighbor to burn a cross on the lawn of the only black family in town.

― thuggish ruggish Brahms (DJP), Tuesday, March 20, 2012 1:15 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

No, that would be a perfect example of a hate crime, because it's obvious that the whole purpose of the crime is to intimidate based on race. I mean THAT'S why you have hate crime laws -- because otherwise burning a cross, which is a horribly fucked up and violent act, would just be petty vandalism.

killing a black dude because you're racist is pretty intimidating to other black people fyi

what about "i'm going to kill that black guy because he whistled at a white woman (in large part because i have a warped perception of black people"

as george zimmerman has proven to be a clear danger to black people, the obvious answer, under florida law, is for a black person to shoot him in self defense.

hoos gay co-worker thread to thread

i might not recall correctly, forgive me, but i thought that hate crime legislation only provided for increased sentencing on crimes found to be motivated by racial bias?

what about "i'm going to kill that black guy because he whistled at a white woman (in large part because i have a warped perception of black people"

― the late great, Tuesday, March 20, 2012 1:19 PM (25 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yeah exactly. ps killing black men because they're all intent on robbing you is the SAME RACIAL MYTHOLOGY as black men will rape all your white women because they're oversexed brutes.

I realize that this is not an argument I really want to keep making for much longer, but I still think there's a distinction. But "he whistled at a white woman" is pretty categorically different from "I unreasonably thought he was a burglar."

mookie i have already done that joke, keep up!

sorry, tracer

I realize that this is not an argument I really want to keep making for much longer, but I still think there's a distinction. But "he whistled at a white woman" is pretty categorically different from "I unreasonably thought he was a burglar."

― the prurient pinterest (Hurting 2), Tuesday, March 20, 2012 1:21 PM (23 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

no. there's a cultural attitude we're isolating here and it's about an image of black men that is pretty disgusting and familiar.

also hilariously backward. again, who is a threat to whom here.

as far as I know, federal hate crime legislation involves penalty enhancement, not new categories of crimes? (prosecution under civil rights violations is sort of a separate and prior category).

i'm sort of surprised that the guy who walks around with a LOADED GUN AT 4 IN THE MORNING, FOLLOWING PEOPLE wasn't reported to the cops a few times.

he's fighting the good fight

he's dirty harry out there

puke

i'm sort of surprised that the guy who walks around with a LOADED GUN AT 4 IN THE MORNING, FOLLOWING PEOPLE wasn't reported to the cops a few times.

it's okay cuz he's not black do you see

glad to hear there's some solid, case-related evidence that would support a hate-crimes prosecution. referring to the slur on the tape. was waiting (and, forgive me, hoping) for that. and yeah, i know that the feds can't prosecute the murder/manslaughter charges themselves, but they can put pressure on local police and the DA's office by suggesting that they're acting improperly in failing to prosecute - or at least i think they could do this.

so one could conceivably kill anyone, on a whim, and as long as no-one else saw it claim it was self defense and get away with it? really? for real?

― ledge, Tuesday, March 20, 2012 8:45 AM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yeah, absolutely. it's happened before.

even if we have every reason to doubt his character and state of mind, i suspect that his story will be awfully difficult to unambiguously disprove in a court of law.

Trials . . . do not work that way?

― butvi wouls (Phil D.), Tuesday, March 20, 2012 8:49 AM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

um, i think they do? the prosecution would have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that zimmerman's story was false, that he acted recklessly or with malice of intent.

thankfully, now that other evidence is being revealed, this seems more likely than when i argued earlier that it would be difficult.

I wasn't entirely comfortable with this being considered a hate crime until I heard Zimmerman's remark in that 911 call (I don't think I would've ever have made it out if it wasn't pointed out).

Reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeally "interesting" that the 911 operator asks Zimmerman if the suspect is black or Hispanic.

the prosecution would have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that zimmerman's story was false, that he acted recklessly or with malice of intent.

No, the jury never gets to hear Zimmerman's story unless he takes the stand. There's nobody else around to testify to it, after all. If you're his lawyer, do you put him on?

he says "black, hispanic or white" iirc, sort of in the same tone of voice that you'd ask someone if they'd prefer fries or onion rings

emergency dispatchers have some kind of iron in their soul that i don't, respect

No, the jury never gets to hear Zimmerman's story unless he takes the stand. There's nobody else around to testify to it, after all. If you're his lawyer, do you put him on?

i don't necessarily mean his words from his lips, just his version of events - and yes, that likely presented by his lawyer

good comma there goole

His lawyer cannot testify as to events, he can only ask questions. xp

yeah exactly. ps killing black men because they're all intent on robbing you is the SAME RACIAL MYTHOLOGY as black men will rape all your white women because they're oversexed brutes.

― horseshoe, Tuesday, March 20, 2012 1:21 PM (25 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

both these things are about white dudes' property, just to make it explicit

Adding: Opening and closing arguments are not testimony.

the irony that white people think black people are so scary when really black people are terrified of white people because look what happens.

This, this, a thousand times this.

Also, I think we all know what would have happened had Martin been armed and shot Zimmerman: He'd be in jail right now, any self-defense claim would be rejected, and they'd probably be preparing to try him as an adult and lock him up forever (or execute him) because of the vicious nature of the crime of gunning down a community leader who was trying to protect his neighbors.

going to go stare expressionlessly at the wall for 5 hours, brb

the right wing argument is, i believe, zimmerman is actually mexican so it can't be a hate crime.

― goole, Tuesday, March 20, 2012 12:44 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i wrote something about this today and so far the right-wing comments/twitter reaction is "why didn't you specify zimmerman's race, eh?"

goole knows his right wing

i mean even taking away the racial aspect for a second, it's still fucked beyond fucked that some huge dude shot an unarmed 17-year-old kid carrying a bag of skittles

or, deep in the comment weeds, there was an attack earlier this month by two black kids with gasoline on a white kid in kansas city, and "nobody in the liberal media cared", even though the cops a) considered it a hate crime and were b) investigating it! double standards!!

that was nice btw, max, your gawker piece. i don't know what to do with my feelings about this case, but that helped.

His lawyer cannot testify as to events, he can only ask questions. xp

― butvi wouls (Phil D.), Tuesday, March 20, 2012 10:47 AM (8 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

as i understand it, lawyers can and do present theories regarding what happened. they do it directly in summation, and they do it by calling witnesses that will present a certain version of events.

thanks h

[continuing from my xp] i mean, you say that "opening and closing arguments are not testimony", but opening and closing arguments attempt to frame and explain testimony. they provide a narrative that the legal team hopes the jury will accept as the truth.

or, deep in the comment weeds, there was an attack earlier this month by two black kids with gasoline on a white kid in kansas city, and "nobody in the liberal media cared", even though the cops a) considered it a hate crime and were b) investigating it! double standards!!

yow, never heard about this. sounds ghastly.

story promoted heavily on conservative blogs

well, i don't read those, so no wonder. is there any other dimension to it that might make it generically newsworthy, like were the assailants not charged?

goole reads these things so we don't have to

zimmerman's and the police department's racist motives are disturbingly complementary tbh; the police were likely just relieved that zimmerman was not related to any of their officers, that he was non-white was just a bonus

damn max, really love ur piece.

ha i just found that shit now! a case like this i always wonder what the 'other side' thinks. plus it's kind of a case study in information pathways and what have you.

okay i looked at the comments thread and they do like to accuse the reporters of "stirring up racial tensions." not the dude who said "fucking coon," of course. it was max who did it.

great article max

^^

^^

thanks everyone

yeah that was particularly bad ass

some guy set up a twitter account just to tweet at me about how zimmerman is hispanic but it looks like twitter took it down :-(

hey max u suck

Adding to all the love. Max that was prime.

but this is the kind of thing: https://twitter.com/#!/DetroitRight/status/182140941006671872

just keeping your ego in check

meghan mccain tweeting at toure is gonna solve this whole thing

oh wow and i got in a minor twitter fight with this guy.... who proceeded to change his avatar to a picture of me in what i can only assume is meant to be blackface

https://twitter.com/#!/TreborRocker

nice work, max

oh wow and i got in a minor twitter fight with this guy.... who proceeded to change his avatar to a picture of me in what i can only assume is meant to be blackface

https://twitter.com/#!/TreborRocker

― max, Tuesday, March 20, 2012 2:20 PM (37 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

oh my god

Ha. Just came here to post a big textual thumbs up to max's piece. Gonna go spread that love around.

Yeah, max u kick ass! Forgive me if I don't have the fortitude to read the comments, though.

don't worry it's all about serial killers rmde

internet right wing reactions to this remind me of reactions to the DeOnte Rawlings case. mercifully that link doesn't contain the comments, but there were an insane amount of the "if your name was DeOnte you had it coming" variety iirc.

that post headline really undersells the facts, btw; it basically seems like some offduty cops shot a 14 year old boy and then covered it up.

46 911 calls in the last year or since January 1? Repots conflict. Either way, odds are pretty good that Zimmerman made more than a few of those calls INSIDE A GODDAMN GATED COMMUNITY and is too off-center to realize the irony.

(And of course -- great work, Max.)

max, the voice in yr. piece reminds me of a junot diaz short story. intentional?

not really, though i am a fan.

http://www.newyorker.com/online/2007/06/11/070611on_audio_danticat

ha! yeah, i totally see that. this was initially going to be a bit more bloggy "how to" but it needed to be angry instead of sarcastic

46 911 calls in the last year or since January 1? Repots conflict. Either way, odds are pretty good that Zimmerman made more than a few of those calls INSIDE A GODDAMN GATED COMMUNITY and is too off-center to realize the irony.

wondering what % of those calls were irt the troubling presence of black youth

46 911 calls in the last year or since January 1? Repots conflict. Either way, odds are pretty good that Zimmerman made more than a few of those calls INSIDE A GODDAMN GATED COMMUNITY and is too off-center to realize the irony.

on CNN this morning, they were making a big point of the fact (?) that it was 46 calls since 2001; i.e., over an 11-year period. not sure what to believe at this point.

Ha, legislators who wrote stand-your-ground do not want their nice little law sullied by the case:

http://miamiherald.typepad.com/nakedpolitics/2012/03/stand-your-ground-fathers-trayvon-martins-shooter-should-likely-be-arrested-doesnt-deserve-immunity.html

bizarre speculation even in that article:

Still, there’s a chance Zimmerman could avoid an arrest or a conviction if he were charged because the law gives broad protections to those who claim they had reason to be afraid and to use deadly force.

There’s a chance, for instance, that Zimmerman decided to stop following Trayvon after he was told by a police dispatcher “Okay, we don't need you to do that.” After that, Trayvon could have changed course and confronted Zimmerman.

It’s unclear. Only Zimmerman appears to know.

wtf?

The "stand your ground" law seems deeply and fundamentally misconceived to me. The traditional "duty to retreat" outside of one's own home, which was overturned by this law, is needed exactly to prevent situations like this. It's a cop-out to say, "Oh we didn't mean to cover cases like this" when it's exactly cases like this that made the old precedent necessary.

I think concealed carry itself is the bigger issue, because how you interpret "stand your ground" laws is a very after-the-fact thing, where the fact is often death. I don't think people walking around with a hardon and a handgun are doing elaborate analysis in the moment of whether they have an adequate self-defense justification.

I'm not a fan of concealed carry either.

well really concealed carry or open carry. Any liberal carry law.

Bottom line: you shouldn't be able to walk around with a concealed weapon goading people into taking a swing at you, and when one does you can legally shoot them.

word

I mean those legislators are technically right, it really doesn't sound like this dude has a plausible claim even under that law, but it sounds like the problem in fact in florida is that this law gets used to excuse all kinds of bullshit

I really can't believe I live in a country where some gun jack-off's wet-dream fantasies got passed into actual legislation

you really can't?

bizarre speculation even in that article:

...wtf?

i don't think the speculation is all that bizarre. the reporter's talking about the circumstances under which the law might protect zimmerman, and given that we don't yet have all the facts (and more importantly, haven't heard the arguments presented by zimmerman's still-hypothetical defense team), it doesn't seem unreasonable to speculate.

I should stop self-deluding and put in my application for overseas citizenship, huh xp

where is martin's phone?

/semirhetorical

i don't think the speculation is all that bizarre. the reporter's talking about the circumstances under which the law might protect zimmerman, and given that we don't yet have all the facts (and more importantly, haven't heard the arguments presented by zimmerman's still-hypothetical defense team), it doesn't seem unreasonable to speculate.

― Fozzy Osbourne (contenderizer), Tuesday, March 20, 2012 3:57 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark

it's not bizarre in the same way that the glove just didn't happen to fit O.J's hand was not bizarre

yeah, exactly. it's not at all bizarre given the way descriptions of events tend to change once the legal implications become fully understood.

don't think the speculation is all that bizarre. the reporter's talking about the circumstances under which the law might protect zimmerman, and given that we don't yet have all the facts (and more importantly, haven't heard the arguments presented by zimmerman's still-hypothetical defense team), it doesn't seem unreasonable to speculate.

― Fozzy Osbourne (contenderizer), Tuesday, March 20, 2012 3:57 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I guess? But nothing about the circumstances to me suggests that explanation as a possibility. Teenager scared that he is being followed in a gated community where he doesn't live decides to turn and confront the guy he is afraid he is being followed by and then attacks with sufficient force that self-defense homicide is justified? Why?

xpost oic

But I mean if the article said "the defense may ARGUE that..." it would sound a little less weird

agreed

yeah, exactly. it's not at all bizarre given the way descriptions of events tend to change once the legal implications become fully understood.

― Fozzy Osbourne (contenderizer), Tuesday, March 20, 2012 4:03 PM (11 minutes ago) Bookmark

no my point was that it IS bizarre insofar as it is completely fucking insane

right I mean the way I read it the article is actually saying "if he didn't do it, here's how it happened" not "here is some bullshit the defense might concoct."

What *is* insane, and what all this armchair lawyering is obscuring, is the fat that there is no defense because ZIMMERMAN HAS NOT BEEN CHARGED WITH A CRIME.

There’s a chance, for instance, that Zimmerman decided to stop following Trayvon after he was told by a police dispatcher “Okay, we don't need you to do that.” After that, Trayvon could have changed course and confronted Zimmerman.

It’s unclear. Only Zimmerman appears to know.

love this "well we'll never REALLY know what happened that night..." argument when there were like at least 3-5 witnesses plus Trayvon's girlfriend on the phone

love this "well we'll never REALLY know what happened that night..." argument when there were like at least 3-5 witnesses plus Trayvon's girlfriend on the phone

but that's the thing. we don't know yet who saw what, exactly. so far as i've been able to tell, there aren't any direct witnesses to the shooting other than zimmerman himself. obviously we haven't heard all the evidence yet, so who knows what'll shake out...

right I mean the way I read it the article is actually saying "if he didn't do it, here's how it happened"

i read it more as, "the law does protect zimmerman if this happened", but i agree that it was a bit o_0 as written

actual self defense: http://www.theroot.com/views/freed-prison-still-pain

So wait, why did Zimmerman have blood and grass stains on his back? I don't get that part

I can't really say much that hasn't already been said. This story is circulating heavily in the community, and even the "DURR IF YOU'D HEARD THE FIRST HALF OF THE RECORDING" dipshits are finding sympathy in this case. This could get very ugly, fast (not that it isn't already, but we've barely seen how bad things can get if Zimmerman isn't brought to justice. The people of Sanford are angrier than I've seen them in a long time.

Jeb Bush called the Stand Your Ground law "common sense" when he passed it. I would like to hear his thoughts on the law now, given what it has wrought over the last few years. I'm sure he would find a way to pass the buck and blame somebody else or assert "lack of evidence" in all of the cases cited earlier in the thread where the law was applied.

If Zimmerman is not charged, then I propose someone follow him everywhere on foot for a week, and when he finally yells at them "LEAVE ME ALONE", they shoot him and claim they were "standing their ground" and that he threatened them with the volume of his voice.

(Note I don't really believe in vigilante justice, I'm just really angry and flustered over this whole case. When my state wonders why it is so heavily criticized in the media, it should look no further than cases like this).

love this "well we'll never REALLY know what happened that night..." argument when there were like at least 3-5 witnesses plus Trayvon's girlfriend on the phone

― Lester the Unlikely (crüt), Tuesday, March 20, 2012 3:42 PM (6 hours ago) Bookmark

totally. Not to mention that even had Trayvon done what the writer says, people do tend to turn around and get ornery when you unnecessarily follow them and make them feel endangered, but that shouldn't give you the right to SHOOT them....but thanks to Florida's ambiguously worded law, there you go.

Not that I believe it anyway. Yes, the evidence is circumstantial, but there is plenty of it to suggest that Trayvon was guilty of being Black in Sanford in the vicinity of a guy who thought he was Seth Rogen in Observe and Report.

I would like Zimmermann to be interviewed to explain why he yelled "HELP!" on tape. which conveniently cuts out after the gun shots (sadly, I did listen to the recordings, and those of you who abstained...will be glad you did).

Did he like, get attacked, start screaming help, and then think "OH DURR WAIT, I HAVE A GUN!"?

o god, i listened to enough of that 911 call to make out the slur, but not to the end. didn't realize that the gun shots were captured, and i'm now super glad i quit when i did. so, uh, what impression do they give? like, do you get a clear picture of what happened?

they give an impression that hearing someone beg for mercy and then hearing loud, piercing gun shots is much scarier IRL than on television/movies.

(the audio doesn't paint a clear picture by itself, no, but in context with the other circumstantial pieces it paints part of the picture).

I could say that the "help" totally sounded like a kid but I don't think I could say that honestly, it's too hard to tell. Still, logically it doesn't make sense that it was Zimmermann yelling it. He was armed and the voice cut out when the shots rang out.

Someone yells help a bunch and 90% of the Internet thinks it's Martin and 10% thinks its Zimmerman. And there really should be a fucking attorney making that distinction right now; but Florida continues to be a worthless fucking shithole

if it was Zimmermann, he was yelling "Help" like Uncle Jimbo screamed "THEY'RE COMING RIGHT FOR US" on South Park

It's totally possible that it was Zimmerman screaming if theres truth to his probably-not-true story about being attacked.

Either way this is something a detective could figure out in like two hours; but it's best to just let the Internet make guesses. Good work, Florida, sink into the fucking Gulf

well considering that they sent a narcotics detective to investigate a homicide....

The state attorney's office also said a voice analysis would be conducted on 911 calls from the night of the shooting to determine who was yelling for help.

this mystery should be over soon.

in Zimmermann's 911 call he points out that the dude is Black like two or three times in the first five minutes. and says 'something is wrong with him' over and over...no specifics.

fucking loon.

you can totally tell he's pursuing Trayvon too because of his voice shaking, his heavy breathing, the excessive background noise...

this zimmerman guy seems like a pretty dim bulb

with a gun! the best kind of bulb.

this makes me so upset.

this whole thing is like a fucking horror movie

between this and the stuff in france it's like why do i ever even pay attention to the news

the france stuff is worse -- or even harder to read.

what a world.

http://motherjones.com/files/images/blog_trayvon_martin_cable_nets.jpg

has everyone heard the 'fucking coons' audio clip from Zimmerman's 911 call?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNI5CA5jijw&list=UU1yBKRuGpC1tSM73A0ZjYjQ

some of us don't want to

well, true, but I'm thinking this is what is giving more weight to federal investigation of this as a hate crime; because otherwise this dumb ass florida stand your ground law really means that local authorities don't have any reason to prosecute this.

If this goes to trial, will there be jurors? Will it be hard finding jurors who haven't heard about this on the news?

no, unfortunately.

plz don't estimate the ignorance of north florida

underestimate*

Part of me was thinking this would lead to a self-selected jury group of people who just watch Fox news (since it's not being reported on there?); part of me feels many people tend not to interact w/the news.

troy davis might've been bigger than this and i'm pretty sure half the country still wouldn't be able to tell you who he is.

so the "fucking coons" thing, it certainly sounds LIKE that on the audio, but I have to be honest, it's not definitive by any means.

doesn't matter though. his repeating of the fact that Trayvon was black plus his statement to neighbors "watch out of young black males" indicates racial bias prior to his action.

probably in court

whoops, probably *not in court

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/21/10791755-neighbor-comes-to-defense-of-trayvon-martins-shooter

IT'S THE BLACKS' FAULT THEY MADE ZIMMERMANN PARANOID!!

fuck this neighbor

"“I think he had fed-up issues. He was mad as hell and wasn't going to take it anymore.”"

o_0

I like how he criticizes those for rushing to judgment then clearly indicates he believes Zimmermann acted in self-defense

the "fucking coons" thing, it certainly sounds LIKE that on the audio, but I have to be honest, it's not definitive by any means

So, then you play it to a jury, have the lawyers explain it as best reflects on their case, and the jury decides what it hears. Then, according to jurisprudence, it becomes definitive.

^ yeah, this. i'm like 70-80% sure he says "fucking coons", but it's all ultimately up the the jury. hopefully...

yeah but he has black friends and he was an altar boy. clearly not racist.

BREAKING: Racist defends other racist (xp)

if you had a choice would you rather see

a) george z locked up

or

b) stand your ground law repealed

we shouldn't have to choose

Yeah Id like one to lead to t'other.

fuck anyone even interviewing the neighbor, it's not like he was a witness.

I'd like to see both, but god help the state of Florida if we see neither.

ok i listened to the audio and there's no 70-80% about it, he %100 says fucking coons

is it stupid of me in my searchings to expect zimmerman to give anything even vaguely like an apology or statement of regret?

as long as there is a possibility of him having any kind of charges against him, definitely

xxxpost I remember when we first passed this law and detractors were labeled as paranoid. Now, the statistics indicate a sharp and clear correlating rise in "justifiable homicides" in the state since its passage.

few would dispute someone's right to defend themselves from being under attack, but the problem is clearly, the populace of Florida is interpreting this law VERY loosely, and lawmakers and police are afraid to challenge anybody who uses the defense.

Get rid of it. Now.

The thing is, anyway, eve if Trayvon had robbed a house, and was, say, walking off from that, that fucker has no right to play cop and SHOOT HIM DEAD.

And if Im to believe that law means he legally can and it isnt murder then god help u all :/

well even the dude that drafted the law says it doesn't cover what Zimmermann did. The problem is how the law is interpreted by both citizenry and the law. It's given way too wide of a berth.

oh and Trayce otm

well i ask because i wish the nat'l dialogue was more abt the NRA's favorite fantasy (that if everyone was packing we'd be safer) and less about whether bernard goetz jr should go to jail

I think you're being mildly facetious, but let's be clear: there's a sizable difference between the circumstances surrounding George Zimmerman and those surrounding Bernie Goetz.

right, i'm just drawing the parallel because that was the last time i recall "vigilante justice" seized the nat'l headlines

bernie goetz was arrested and charged (and convicted, although not of much).

and the poor black victims of drive-by crossfire that the pretty white dallas columnist reminds us of (and would equate with) were victims of undoubted criminal activity.

this dude was neither arrested, nor charged, nor investigated, nor anything. it's one very bad thing when a racist jury perverts the law; it's wholly another when the law itself happily accepts perversion.

TPM, others: ALEC & the NRA wrote the 'stand your ground' law(s)

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/03/stand_your_ground_legislation_that_may_have_let_tr.php

I thought it was common knowledge that NRA sponsored the stand your ground laws?

this is also lol: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/21/george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin-_n_1371171.html

"You cannot provoke the confrontation. You cannot be the instigator and then claim 'stand your ground,' Sundby said.

funny, seems like that's exactly what george zimmerman did

the NRA yes, but ALEC having a hand in the drafts, transmission, prioritizing is a new factoid i think. and sick.

what else does ALEC do? I know they have a hand in privatizing prisons

have fun!

http://alecexposed.org/wiki/ALEC_Exposed

looks like they have a finger in every pie

sorry, I just wanted to use that phrase

http://newsone.com/nation/elonjameswhite/how-occupy-wall-street-co-opted-the-million-hoodie-march/

i don't want to start another million post argument about OWS, but i think we can mostly agree that this is a bit fucked up? i'm reading a lot of personal accounts of the million hoodie march and i have yet to read one that wasn't lamenting Occupy's presence. and apparently a livestream caught Occupy protesters trying to redirect the march towards zucotti park.

Chief's out

that'll solve it

rmde

God forbid he should fucking arrest and charge Zimmerman before the door hits his ass on the way out.

According to the police, the police made an investigation, and the police found nothing to merit an arrest, so obviously the police need not take a second look, because the police are capable and fully to be trusted with this case.

Do you think the police chief who is taking "a tmeporary leave" is going to back down from that one inch? Not on your life, buster. He's the president of the club.

Yeah there was no doubt in my mind that with all this negative attention that some of the policemen were going to need to find a new line of work.

temporary resignation?

isn't that a 'holiday'?

Been stressful for the poor guy. If anybody deserves a holiday it's him.

that's fair, that's fair

So George Zimmerman once had a domestic violence complaint in which -- quelle surprise! -- he claimed that it was his ex-fiancee's fault and HE was the real victim.

But don't worry, Geraldo Rivera has gotten to the bottom of things: It's all the hoodie's fault.

Uhhhh...isn't that basically the old "women shouldn't dress like they wanna be raped" saw? BULLSHIT, GERALDO.

Looks like the writer of the original Stand Your Ground legislation is squirming:

As far as I’m concerned, that Neighborhood Watch guy was breaking that law as soon as he started following that kid. He was stalking him. That’s not standing your ground," said Rep. Richard "Rich" Glorioso, R-Plant City, who voted for the bill. "If the law is applied right, it’s a fine law. But we worried about how people would interpret it, and how it would be applied, when we were discussing i

But we worried about how people would interpret it, and how it would be applied, when we were discussing i

But we figured, fuck it, let's pass it anyway and see what happens.

after geraldo says "you can't rehabilitate the hoodie" (judiciously acknowledging that fearing all black dudes in hoodies are here to rob+murder you "may be irrational in some extent", although he doesn't have the statistics right here in front of him) and suggests that this whole thing could have been avoided had martin only dressed a little better (we're trying really hard not to kill you guys but come on you have to meet us halfway!) he suddenly torpedoes his thesis with this exception:

I think unless it's raining out, or you're at a track meet, leave the hoodie home.

but it was raining out, so i guess we're back to this thing being the fault of the guy who shot and killed the unarmed teenager instead of the fault of the guy who was so thoughtless and utopian he thought he could wear a sweatshirt around white people without getting murdered?

anyway huge lol at the final line in the transcript:

HUDDY: Perception is reality.

yes let us talk now about geraldo rivera

yeah a trap obviously but i was caught off guard

Obv that hoodie thing is completely horrible and wrongheaded in any event, but according to his girlfriend he only pulled the hood up when he realised he was being followed anyway.

Sorry everyone, go back to leaving it well alone...

but according to his girlfriend he only pulled the hood up when he realised he was being followed anyway.

What was pulling up the hoodie supposed to achieve, make him invisible?

yeah I've never understood that as an impulse, seems almost like a knee jerk saw-it-in-a-movie thing

Plus: Cuts down on drag/wind resistance/something for someone to grab onto.
Negative: lose peripheral vision, attract attention/look suspicious.

uh

are you saying that wearing a hood up makes people look suspicious in general, or is that only for black people

what do you think Zimmerman is doing all day considering the entire country wants his head on a platter? is he like going to work and getting Wendy's drive-thru and shit? is he hiding in his house?

obama: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/23/obama-trayvon-martin_n_1375083.html?ref=fb&src=sp&comm_ref=false

"If I had a son, he'd look like Trayvon," Obama said, underscoring how the issue affected him on a personal, and not just a political or legal, level. "I think [Trayvon's parents] are right to expect that all of us as Americans are going to take this with the seriousness it deserves, and we are going to get to the bottom of exactly what happened."

idk, if i was being watched / followed / pursued by someone i don't know, i would probably instinctively try to conceal myself and evade my pursuer, idk about you xps

yeah Whiney i've been wondering the same thing. where is this guy?

are you saying that wearing a hood up makes people look suspicious in general, or is that only for black people

Nah. I just meant that if I were crazy psycho vigilante guy and I saw someone I already thought was suspicious (because I am crazy), then I saw that person see me and put their hood up ("but according to his girlfriend he only pulled the hood up when he realised he was being followed anyway"), I'd probably only get crazier. But of course, I am not crazy.

Boils down to: wearing a hoodie is not suspicious, hood up or no. Flipping up a hood when you see you're being followed: slightly more suspicious. Though of course in this case, he was already being followed by a psycho racist vigilante, so ...

Oh, and I assume Zimmerman is still on neighborhood patrol, what with the threat of reprisals and stuff. Someone's got to keep the gated community safe!

yeah Whiney i've been wondering the same thing. where is this guy?

at EMP.

noted racist enclave

this is cool

http://www.nbcmiami.com/news/Trayvon-Martin-Walkouts-at-Miami-Schools-143962536.html

president's comment sure to harden certain hearts even further i'm afraid. this is going to get worse.

he didn't know he was getting followed by someone who thought he was "suspicious"! he had no idea why he was being chased.

Just wondering what he hoped to achieve by putting his hood up is all. Though how his girlfriend would know he only put his hood up when he saw he was being followed is a mystery to me. Was he talking with her on the phone? "By the way, I think some weird dude is following me, so I'm going to put my hood up now."

Just chatting hood etiquette here.

I put my hood up so I don't have to make eye contact with creepy dudes..

^Suspicious. What if creepy dude just wants to be friends?

i'm sure putting his hood up was a premeditated choice with a desired end--rmde

hood up is international sign for me 'leave me alone'. useful on public transportation and airplanes.

motivation for driving after a kid who is running from you, a little more questionable.

^Suspicious. What if creepy dude just wants to be friends?

― Josh in Chicago, Friday, March 23, 2012 4:51 PM (2 minutes ago)

The creepiest dues always want to be friends with me. There's something about me (6'1" with bright red hair? Smiley?) that makes the weirdest people talk to me. It's exhausting. :(

It's so frustrating, seeing all the racist comments in these news stories. All these people unafraid to spew hatred even with their Facebook names linked to their comments. What the hell, world. :(

one of the Huffpo commenters just said that Obama's statement just prejudiced every jury Zimmerman would get. How plausible a concern is this?

I wonder, has there ever been a case, ever, where this Stand Your Ground law was invoked that allowed a black person to get away with killing a white person? My bet is ... no.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_vk6j1tEVQd4/SmiEIm5qUpI/AAAAAAAABGA/ga2lC1xqtV4/s1600/Manson.gif

valid point

I somehow missed through all this that Zimmerman is actually on the lam, whereabouts unknown.

Wait, whaaaaaaat?

No shit! Well, guy should probably keep running, hood-up, at this point.

Wait, are his whereabouts unknown, or have they just not been revealed to the press/angry mob?

I just heard that from a coworker who has been level-headed enough to keep with all angles of the story without succumbing to blind rage. Dunno where she read/heard it, though.

i'm sure they know where he is, and i'm sure they have no desire to let the public know

Was he talking with her on the phone? "By the way, I think some weird dude is following

this is exactly what happened btw

miami heat http://campl.us/il4E

but this isn't about suspicious behavior, its about black / hip-hop clothing being interpreted as signifiers of criminality. could have just as well been a 3XL tee and sagging jeans instead of a hoodie, people would still be implying martin's blame for dressing / looking too black

xps

How plausible a concern is this?

First of all, this is utter BS. The Pres made a very boilerplate statement and merely pointed out that an un-armed black man who would look very similar to his son, if he had one, was just shot and the shooter apparently wasn't going to suffer any consequence at the State level due to a law which should, yes, probably be looked at.

Geraldo reviews a hoodie on amazon

more on the Heat: http://espn.go.com/nba/truehoop/miamiheat/story/_/id/7728618/miami-heat-don-hoodies-response-death-teen-trayvon-martin

btw: James told confidants that when Wade's girlfriend, Gabrielle Union fuck now I have to hate Dwayne Wade

M-M-M-M-MEGAFAIL!!!!

http://angryblacklady.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Geraldo-is-a-dipshit.jpg

DJP by putting the words "Gabrielle Union fuck" in such close proximity you have raised and then dashed my hopes.

Rivera's son must be ashamed for him an awful lot

that top tweet is next level

Geraldo's lack of filter is stunning

"I gave Geraldo +Klout on being a child of color in America!"

his hoodie surely murdered him, much like short skirts are known to sexually assault women

DJP is gonna hate fuck Dwyane Wade?

"look like a gangsta" rmde

Geraldo, I think a kid getting gunned down by a crazy likely-racist did more to remind American minorities of the dangers facing their children than your "he shouldn't have been wearing a hoodie" concern-trolling

xxp: if that's what it takes to get Gabby's attention

gangstas should all start sporting comedy mustaches imho

comedy mustaches and hypercolor t-shirts

So Geraldo, I guess that means when someone sees you driving around in your Mercedes, or walking around in an expensive suit, you're fair game to be robbed? After all, you're flaunting your wealth. You're asking for it. You know the risks.

A gut-puncher of a post on this topic by Jesse Taylor at Pandagon: http://pandagon.net/index.php/site/comments/a-young-black-man-being-late

everyone knows from Geraldo's mustache that he is a video game plumber

throw geraldo head-first into a chemical toilet imho

xxp: I wish I could say that story surprises me

I'm wearing a hoodie right now. It's orange.

sending cops over to your house now

"His hoodie killed Trayvon Martin as surely as George Zimmerman"

it ought to be a crime to employ geraldo rivera

h/t to a HOOS http://jsmooth995.tumblr.com/post/19458926115/and-youd-need-a-shirt-longer-than-a-royal-wedding

geraldo needs to launch a new line of safety clothes for urban youths

red and white butcher stripe coats and straw boater hats and comedy moustaches, b/c looking like an olde-timey barbershop tenor won't get you shot

open season on bill belichick

fuck i read that shirt post and started tearing up.

http://www.mediabistro.com/fishbowlny/files/original/oreilly_geraldo_mets_051807.jpg

VERY SUSPICIOUS

acting kind of crazy

why is he wearing glasses from a head shop

looks high

/!\ALERT/!\ hoodies can get your kid killed /!\ALERT/!\

http://publicspaceone.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/geraldo5.jpg

Does this mean we can shoot him?

xpost

stand your ground

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQOg2HaB1Xc

that was the best geraldo ever

i don't understand why geraldo is famous and morton downey jr isn't

http://29.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m1cge8Y9511qz5ew6o1_r1_500.png

so we had a chance to push him into the ocean and missed it

http://c498390.r90.cf2.rackcdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/geraldo.jpg

u.s. ama

http://carrielikethemovie.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/rico.jpg?w=300&h=200p

Oh, wait, you weren't looking for me? My bad.

Holla if you change your mind.

welp, the 'alternative'-view articles are starting to circulate, a little later than expected.

(I sure as hell ain't posting any of them here though).

the most I'll say is, all of them spend an inordinate time building up an equation that, even if it weren't flawed in design, doesn't even spit out the conclusion it would need to in order to have any merit.

also btw, there's a rumor floating around taht he was on suspension from school during the shooting, implying he was 'violent' and that's why he got suspended.

the suspension...was for tardiness from school (http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/news/2012/03/23/trayvon-martin-never-picked-fight-friends-say/). Way to inadvertently prove your own racism, dudes who spread that rumor!

latino.foxnews.com

u sayin that site looks 'suspicious'?

looking forward to jew.foxnews.com, etc, that's all

dudewithawkwardcrewcut.foxnews.com

all i hear about is "whys nobody demonstrating about the white boy that got set on fire?!?!?"

the roger adulterys of the world

i can't stop thinking about this though

i can see the logic behind a lot of ... well, maybe some right-wing positions ... but the one i could never really get behind was anti-gun control

i never understood what you'd want a gun for, really, if you weren't living by yourself out in the woods, and even then ... really?

hope this is the tipping point here

most anti-gun control stems from 80's right wing paranoia in which people insisted gun registration could lead to gun confiscation if a totalitarian government ever took over and they would be left defenseless.

You can really blame one scene in Red Dawn for that.

i never understood what you'd want a gun for, really, if you weren't living by yourself out in the woods, and even then ... really?

hope this is the tipping point here

It won't be because the debate now is about Stand Your Ground.

I was sort of hoping the debate would be exactly how many decades of sentencing for zimmerman.

The more I think of it, the more I can't believe that stupid Stand Your Ground law was passed. So let's say I see someone ... suspicious. I have a right to follow them (nothing illegal about that). But the person I'm following may be rightly suspicious, maybe even threatened, and if they're threatened ... they have the right to try and kill me? But if they try to kill me, even though I'm doing nothing illegal, than I'm being threatened myself, and I have the right ... to kill them? That is, wouldn't anyone on the killing end of some Stand Your Ground nut be within their rights to try and kill (er, defend) back? It's like a feedback loop of justifiable homicide.

Or am I missing some nuance?

#NRA

lawfullyarmed dot com

The more I think of it, the more I can't believe that stupid Stand Your Ground law was passed. So let's say I see someone ... suspicious. I have a right to follow them (nothing illegal about that). But the person I'm following may be rightly suspicious, maybe even threatened, and if they're threatened ... they have the right to try and kill me? But if they try to kill me, even though I'm doing nothing illegal, than I'm being threatened myself, and I have the right ... to kill them? That is, wouldn't anyone on the killing end of some Stand Your Ground nut be within their rights to try and kill (er, defend) back? It's like a feedback loop of justifiable homicide.

Or am I missing some nuance?

― Josh in Chicago, Friday, March 23, 2012 9:03 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i think the secret purpose of the law was to depopulate florida so that it can return to its natural state. environmentalists IIRC.

poorly formed joek

I suggest we avoid yet another gun control derail on this thread, although I think the Stand Your Ground law is fair game here.

I'd be happy to talk about how my mom needs to use single-shot .22 rifles to keep groundhogs and deer out of her garden on the Gun Control thread, oh but wait most of ILX doesn't have a fucking clue about anything that happens in a non-metropolitan area so I think I'll pass. Handguns are evil and should be banned fwiw.

lol

needs it! think of the flowers!

who itt was wresting sleeve's mom's .22 from her?? my own mom relies on an electrified fence, but i'm pretty sure sleeve's mom will be safe from whatever the ramifications of the trayvon martin case turn out to be.

fuckin groundhog apocalypse i'm sure

your mom is cold

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2011/04/soul-hamsters-630.jpg

wonder which one sleeve's mom would shoot

it's awesome that she's an organic subsistence farmer tho

my former brother in law raised his kids on an organic farm in the mountains. their six goats got eated by a mt lion, too bad he wasn't packing at the time but good news is herrifs deputies got it while they was holed up in de yurt

sorry abt the typos, I'm typing on a phone while driving a prius thru a drive thru starbucks in a whole foods parking lot in a skyscraper

it's cool -- out here in flyover country the deer in hoodies are fucking asking for it

http://icouldbetrayvon.com/

sorry abt the typos, I'm typing on a phone while driving a prius thru a drive thru starbucks in a whole foods parking lot in a skys

http://www.notspendingmoney.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/clue-game-300x200.jpgcraper

ohhhhhhhhhhhhh boy

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-24/news/os-trayvon-martin-new-black-panthers-protest-20120324_1_gathering-third-protest-gated-community

sorry abt the typos, I'm typing on a phone while driving a prius thru a drive thru starbucks in a whole foods parking lot in a skyscraper

― the late great

haaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Bjo otm

Time to cancel my family vacation to Samford, Florida.

Former Orange-Osceola County prosecutor Esther Whitehead said the Panthers' bounty opens them up to civil and possibly criminal liability.

"I can't see how anyone can go out and take action as a private citizen without some government action like the issuance of a warrant," she said. "It doesn't make sense. It doesn't sound reasonable."

Well gee, it FUCKING WORKED FOR ZIMMERMAN.

Zimmermann's attorney pulled out a new wrinkle and said Trayvon broke his nose, and pointed out Zimmermann's injuries.....

....like why are people still pointing to this as some kind of smoking gun? I don't think most are disputing that at some point, there WAS indeed a scuffle between the two prior to the shooting.

I think it's pretty obvious though that George himself instigated the altercation, and there's no indication as to who was 'winning' the fight. Still doesn't qualify as 'stand your ground'. I actually have a friend that is very pro-gun/pro-self defense that still believes Zimmermann should be arrested. Even THAT crowd doesn't support him.

After listening to the recording, Zimmermann at some point mentions that Trayvon is looking at him, and coming towards him, right before he mentions that he starts running. My guess is that he was just naturally walking that way on the sidewalk, and saw George staring at him and talking on the phone, and as he began to pass by, overheard the call in which Zimmermann was describing him to the dispatcher, and got scared and ran.

going back up to the Panthers', as much as I understand the anger and can't possibly understand their perspective (being a white male), I can't say I support what they're doing at all.....although yes, the comment made by the prosecutor was sadly ironic.

Zimmermann's attorney pulled out a new wrinkle and said Trayvon broke his nose, and pointed out Zimmermann's injuries.....

....like why are people still pointing to this as some kind of smoking gun? I don't think most are disputing that at some point, there WAS indeed a scuffle between the two prior to the shooting.

Yeah, seriously, from Martin's perspective, he's being stalked around the neighborhood by what, for all he knows, is a sexual predator or kidnapper, so he decides to take action. But Zimmerman's supporters have painted themselves into a corner here, because the next thing they're going to have to say to condemn Martin's actions is that "Stand Your Ground" is Not For Black People.

The Miami Heat take a stand.
http://www.thenation.com/sites/default/files/user/17/miami_heat_hoodies_ap.jpg

It didn't seem possible, but now we take a turn for the even more absurd and stupid:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3C-P0Rm1Ow&feature=g-logo&context=G217dc1eFOAAAAAAACAA

Like I don't even....

like even if 'goon' was what he said, does he not realize the violent 'thug' connotations of the word goon?

can be a term of endearment in certain contexts, but certainly not when coming out of the mouth of a dude who has called FUCKING 911 ON THE GUY.

"'goon' is apparently a term of endearment in the high schools these days"

lol

like are we just bending over backwards to make this go away by insulting everyone's intelligence now?

oh wait...

i dont know any ilxors under the age of 30 who use 'goon' as a term of endearment any more

dude didn't realize his own daughter was clownin him to look stupid on national tv

^bingo

zimmerman's not racist; he just hates blah people

give it two weeks, dude will get the Nobel Prize

is he implying that zimmerman used a term of endearment for martin before killing him

that's what fucking makes no sense!

"ahh, he's a good kid. shame I have to plug him."

they're seriously gonna go with the "zimmerman was lonely and just wanted a friend" defense

the old Lennie Small strategy

he just didn't know the strength of his gun! he thought a bullet was a term of endearment!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMkzdn2TDuI

otm

"aw shucks, those fuckin goons <3"

A good friend and I will call each other goon when we get mock-exasperated at each other but that's b/w us.

"I Shot Him But It Was Intended To Feel Like A Kiss"

"a racial epitaph"

A good friend and I will call each other goon when we get mock-exasperated at each other but that's b/w us.

k3vin k3ll3r

huh?

i was joking that the friend Alfred called 'goon' was you

At this point, I could totally see Zimmerman taking the Martin family to civil court for damages over his broken nose. And probably for all the pain and suffering caused by having his named dragged through the mud.

brb gonna go eat my weight in TUMS

i was joking that the friend Alfred called 'goon' was you

I always call you "tool"

;)

^literary critic nails my internet persona

Zimmermann's friend said Zimm thought this murder would just 'blow over'.

"Ahh hey, it's been a week. My son's dead, but you learned your lesson, right?"

Little Bunny Foo Foo to thread.

yeah, i mean, goon is only one letter off from an outdated racial epithet but i don't think zimmerman meant to call martin a gook.

new york state senator eric adams wears a hoodie: https://www.facebook.com/pages/New-York-State-Senator-Eric-Adams/80559174013

also trayvons school released his suspension records, as if that had any relevance whatsoever to this incident

I thought the implication was the cops obtained it and leaked it

fantastic concern trolling from businessinsider.com (don't have a link handy, read it earlier today)

also trayvons school released his suspension records, as if that had any relevance whatsoever to this incident

OK, as much as it pains me to say it, the water has been officially muddied enough that I'm not sure who the fuck to believe. Police say they have a witness who claims Trayvon, after he saw that he was being followed, snuck up behind Zimmerman and punched him in the face. Which does not justify killing him, but certainly shifts the balance of power a little, if it's true. And it's a big if. But I don't know why to trust the innocent passerby scenario any more than any others at this point.

Josh you took the same line with DSK iirc. "Hang on, wait a minute, let's consider what we absolutely know to be true".. Am I remembering that right? I have a lot of time for that hard-boiled approach to crime especially since it can yield such dramatically satisfying twists but at the same time I'm not a cop or a journalist reporting this story so I'm really pretty comfortable completely convicting GZ in the court of my own opinion. In a way I'm surprised he hasn't been jumped repeatedly, the guy was a racist nutter, actively threatening his own neighborhood with a loaded weapon night after night

how do you sneak up BEHIND someone and then punch them in the face

alley-oop punch

http://www.herosandwich.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/fnf-plasjoker.jpg

seems like ANY possible version of the night boils down to "unarmed black teenager shot to death by paranoid racist vigilante"

what if Trayvon had a screwdriver

seems like ANY possible version of the night boils down to "unarmed black teenager shot to death by paranoid racist vigilante"

― I DIED, Monday, March 26, 2012 6:04 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

aw shucks *kicks dirt*