generation limbo: 20-somethings today, debt, unemployment, the questionable value of a college education

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(this is branching off discussion in the quiddities thread)

iatee, Friday, 2 September 2011 16:45 (3 years ago) Permalink

think everybody is devoting their energies to the retweeted thread

dayo, Friday, 2 September 2011 16:51 (3 years ago) Permalink

After college, he worked at an Apple Store in New York as a salesclerk and trainer, while furthering his music career in an experimental rock band.

beyond parody

Once Were Moderators (DG), Friday, 2 September 2011 16:51 (3 years ago) Permalink

euler keeps bringing up his state's 7k tuition as a value. in 1970 uc berkeley tuition was...$320.

the cost of education is going up because of:
a. administrative costs
b. unnecessary amenities (/'competition' for students)
c. student loan bubble / nobody is 'priced out' of college = no cost competition
d. belief that the state has less of a role in financing education, esp if a degree is a sound personal investment for someone

and without knowing his school name, I can bet that the tuition there is more than double what it was in 1990.

iatee, Friday, 2 September 2011 16:55 (3 years ago) Permalink

awkward pause

on the other thread remy said ``There's a bigger issue than the cost, though - the lack (or, often, perceived lack) of academic/writing/social/disability/ELL support and outreach for first-gen college attendees."

one of the reasons college costs have gone up so much is that we're hiring so much new staff, as opposed to (permanent) faculty (our salaries have hardly budged in years & are shite---my kids no longer qualify for reduced-price lunches this year but that's only b/c I got promoted). So I'm resistant to any suggestion that suggests we need more staff. Also I'm a first-gen American, first-gen college student, in fact one of maybe three in my extended family of say 40 people to have a college degree (& one of the others is my brother)---so my perspective is gonna be different re. first-gen college students needing support from universities in academic matters

in general in education as in all else, poverty's the issue, esp. in early childhood years; by college we can add value to people's already-in-place skills but we can't create those skills from scratch; only a parent or a community can do that.

Euler, Friday, 2 September 2011 16:56 (3 years ago) Permalink

One night she bumped into a friend, who asked her to join a punk rock band, Titus Andronicus, as a guitarist. Once, that might have been considered professional suicide.

hardcore oatmeal (Jordan), Friday, 2 September 2011 16:57 (3 years ago) Permalink

iatee I am sure our tuition here has way more than doubled since 1990, & that's shitty but as was said before, states have withdrawn support so we're doing the best we can.

Euler, Friday, 2 September 2011 16:57 (3 years ago) Permalink

right, but that 7k has to be put in perspective - it's not a permanent 'good deal', it's only cheap relative to other prices, and it's inevitably going up

iatee, Friday, 2 September 2011 16:59 (3 years ago) Permalink

A somewhat similar dynamic happened to the tail end of the baby boom generation, who attended college in mass numbers, although they paid less to do so.

Firstly, the leading edge of the boomers occupied all the available employment slots for college grads, leaving extremely slim pickings for the wave of boomers that followed them. Then the Reagan/Volcker recession shut down employment altogether for about 3 years. There were easily a hundred qualified applicants for any professional level job, however obscure the qualifications were.

Notably, when the yuppies emerged out fo the dust cloud of this free-for-all in the mid-80s, they tended to be the most competitive eye-gougers and back-biters of all. The less objectionable late boomers gave up and settled into carpentry or bartending types of jobs.

Aimless, Friday, 2 September 2011 16:59 (3 years ago) Permalink

yeah, the UC schools (& other public schools in which I may have more of an interest soon if things go well) have less inexpensive tuition---semi-privatizing the universities is an ongoing thing.

still kind of amazed at the value of public universities in the USA though; bragging but my classes kick ass & they're only paying like $700 for a whole term of it! a good dinner out with a date is gonna cost you what, a 1/7 of that? true that a student has to handle it right; when I go teach in a hour or so I'm gonna see some dead eyes that remind me that some of these kids aren't getting anything out of this, & that it's their fault (b/c after only a week I can assure you I'm not fucking up yet).

Euler, Friday, 2 September 2011 17:03 (3 years ago) Permalink

euler is your school increasing enrollment at all?

dayo, Friday, 2 September 2011 17:04 (3 years ago) Permalink

in general in education as in all else, poverty's the issue, esp. in early childhood years; by college we can add value to people's already-in-place skills but we can't create those skills from scratch; only a parent or a community can do that.

But there's a way to 'correct' for some of those skills by offering fair support services. This is equitable, and right. Not everybody comes to college w/ the same background, but college could – potentially - close the gap between the struggling kids and the are-gonna-do-well-no-matter-what types. But I'm not even sure that 4-year college is the right answer, anyway, so maybe this is a moot point?

remy bean, Friday, 2 September 2011 17:06 (3 years ago) Permalink

attendance is at a high this year but the prez/board of regents is keeping it at more or less stable levels, so we're only about 500 students up this year iirc

my #s seem a bit down wait-list-wise but my classes are all full so things seem ok

Euler, Friday, 2 September 2011 17:07 (3 years ago) Permalink

I'm not sure that four-year college is right for those students either, but I think a lot of the problem is that while the "go to college & ~find~ yourself" is great for upper-middle-class kids, I don't think it suits others so well.

fwiw I feel the same way about the sexual revolution

Euler, Friday, 2 September 2011 17:09 (3 years ago) Permalink

jeez I didn't find myself until about four years after college

unwarranted display names of ilx (mh), Friday, 2 September 2011 17:11 (3 years ago) Permalink

also before you people tell me to get to work

a) I've got the stomach flu pretty wicked right now
b) taught 3 hrs yesterday & gonna do it again for an hour today
c) was an awesome Pete Sampras at the US Open moment yesterday, hoping to play like a champion again today

Euler, Friday, 2 September 2011 17:11 (3 years ago) Permalink

I thought you were tenured? it should be ilx+tennis 24/7 now

iatee, Friday, 2 September 2011 17:12 (3 years ago) Permalink

wait maybe some sleeping...and eating

iatee, Friday, 2 September 2011 17:13 (3 years ago) Permalink

remy otm - there is a huge disparity in the quality of education that a student can potentially get before college.

dayo, Friday, 2 September 2011 17:13 (3 years ago) Permalink

this article instantly reminded me of a nearly identical piece in Time Magazine from the early 90s about Generation X - over-educated, aimless, without economic prospects, debt-ridden, unlikely to scale the economic heights of their forebears, etc. I wonder if that is online somewhere...

I can feel it in my spiritual hat (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 2 September 2011 17:13 (3 years ago) Permalink

haha yeah tenure but like Sampras I wanna keep rising high

Euler, Friday, 2 September 2011 17:14 (3 years ago) Permalink

yeah the thing is 'aimless college grads' has always been 'a thing', but right now we're in an economic downturn that's not comparable to anything else post-great depression xp

iatee, Friday, 2 September 2011 17:14 (3 years ago) Permalink

I guess part of what I'm getting at is that for students who require special accommodations, have either documented or undocumented LDs, speak mediocre English, need to take a slower, non-traditional (or interrupted) path through schools, or require additional mentorship or counseling, the the community college and state school system has often been welcoming, empowering and viable. Whether it's true or not, these students aren't perceiving the same help/options in these schools b/c of a one size fits all approach that now include a lot of more traditional students who need less in the way of support. For the school's bottom line, this is a good thing: accommodations cost money, and customarily the students who require them have a lower earning potential (as a group) than the students who don't, so why not focus on the most likely-to-be-successful students?

remy bean, Friday, 2 September 2011 17:15 (3 years ago) Permalink

ah here it is

xp

I can feel it in my spiritual hat (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 2 September 2011 17:15 (3 years ago) Permalink

"Reason: America needs them. Today's young adults are so scarce that their numbers could result in severe labor shortages in the coming decade."

yeah this part doesn't come up in many articles today

iatee, Friday, 2 September 2011 17:16 (3 years ago) Permalink

boomers kids are their own demographic bump, gen x was the lack of one

iatee, Friday, 2 September 2011 17:17 (3 years ago) Permalink

What worries parents, teachers and employers is that the latest crop of adults wants to postpone growing up. At a time when they should be graduating, entering the work force and starting families of their own, the twentysomething crowd is balking at those rites of passage. A prime reason is their recognition that the American Dream is much tougher to achieve after years of housing-price inflation and stagnant wages. Householders under the age of 25 were the only group during the 1980s to suffer a drop in income, a decline of 10%. One result: fully 75% of young males 18 to 24 years old are still living at home, the largest proportion since the Great Depression.

In a TIME/CNN poll of 18- to 29-year-olds, 65% of those surveyed agreed it will be harder for their group to live as comfortably as previous generations. While the majority of today's young adults think they have a strong chance of finding a well-paying and interesting job, 69% believe they will have more difficulty buying a house, and 52% say they will have less leisure time than their predecessors. Asked to describe their generation, 53% said the group is worried about the future.

I can feel it in my spiritual hat (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 2 September 2011 17:17 (3 years ago) Permalink

69% believe they will have more difficulty buying a house, and 52% say they will have less leisure time than their predecessors.

that much turned out to be true!

iatee, Friday, 2 September 2011 17:19 (3 years ago) Permalink

Because they are fewer in number, today's young adults have the power to wreak havoc in the workplace. Companies are discovering that to win the best talent, they must cater to a young work force that is considered overly sensitive at best and lazy at worst. During the next several years, employers will have to double their recruiting efforts. According to American Demographics, the pool of entry-level workers 16 to 24 will shrink about 500,000 a year through 1995, to 21 million. These youngsters are starting to use their bargaining power to get more of what they feel is coming to them. They want flexibility, access to decision making and a return to the sacredness of work-free weekends. "I want a work environment concerned about my personal growth," says Jennifer Peters, 22, one of the youngest candidates ever to be admitted to the State Bar of California. "I don't want to go to work and feel I'll be burned out two or three years down the road."

iatee, Friday, 2 September 2011 17:19 (3 years ago) Permalink

seems a little different to me!

iatee, Friday, 2 September 2011 17:20 (3 years ago) Permalink

Euler what is your field?

Do not go gentle into that good frogbs (silby), Friday, 2 September 2011 17:21 (3 years ago) Permalink

yeah sure there are differences - I haven't read the article in 20 years fwiw

I can feel it in my spiritual hat (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 2 September 2011 17:22 (3 years ago) Permalink

gen x: lazy
millennials: overeducated, prob a little lazy, mostly just fucked

iatee, Friday, 2 September 2011 17:24 (3 years ago) Permalink

that article feels more like "aimless 20 somethings not sure of what they want to do", today's version of "aimless 20 somethings WANT to do something but finding all doors shut"

dayo, Friday, 2 September 2011 17:25 (3 years ago) Permalink

yeah as far as I can tell In This Economy™ what used to be entry-level jobs all advertise as requiring 3 years experience. I somehow have gotten a few interviews anyway but every time one peters out I just get less interested in applying for more programming jobs and more interested in killing time until grad school.

Do not go gentle into that good frogbs (silby), Friday, 2 September 2011 17:25 (3 years ago) Permalink

I'm a phil-ah-soh-pher

which btw shouldn't be conflated with "the liberal arts" b/c our students aren't usually the dreamy-wanna-write-a-story types, rather they're the mass debater types & go on to do analytic work & typically get pretty well paid (unless they go to grad school obv)

Euler, Friday, 2 September 2011 17:54 (3 years ago) Permalink

you mean @ your school or philosophy majors in general

iatee, Friday, 2 September 2011 17:55 (3 years ago) Permalink

Not really involved in the discussion but here's a link that might be of interest - http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2011/08/31/historical-trends-in-college-tuition/

The linked post about the retained value of a college degree is also worth a look.

pullapartsquirrel (Jenny), Friday, 2 September 2011 17:55 (3 years ago) Permalink

both xp unless we're talking continental philosophers w/ all that crit theory bullshit & that's just dreamy-wanna-write-a-story stuff that isn't gonna get you anywhere

obv I am a pawn of the status quo

Euler, Friday, 2 September 2011 17:56 (3 years ago) Permalink

I dunno I think their prospects aren't much different from english majors or whatever, they just have a higher tendency to go to law school

iatee, Friday, 2 September 2011 17:58 (3 years ago) Permalink

if I owned 'generic business' I would totally hire a bunch of philosophy majors tho, seems like an undervalued asset (as long as I didn't have to talk to them)

iatee, Friday, 2 September 2011 18:00 (3 years ago) Permalink

what if 'generic business' was a 'medicinal marijuana shop'

dayo, Friday, 2 September 2011 18:01 (3 years ago) Permalink

fwiw philosophy majors rank in the top three nationally on the LSAT, GMAT and GRE pretty much yearly; our only competition is physics & math iirc

Euler, Friday, 2 September 2011 18:02 (3 years ago) Permalink

xp lol

Euler, Friday, 2 September 2011 18:03 (3 years ago) Permalink

Got turned down for a job I had two interviews for today. FUCK THIS SHIT.

gay socialists smoking mushrooms with their illegal gardeners (a hoy hoy), Friday, 2 September 2011 18:03 (3 years ago) Permalink

xps to Euler: see I don't like the idea of denigrating "the liberal arts" as a thing, I legitimately believe that the liberal arts (including liberal study of the sciences) are the foundation of a democratic society; this is why high school is at least in part a weird mini liberal arts education. College as a job-training-and-credentialing exercise is just going to become a worse and worse value proposition (though it honestly isn't now, as college grads are still outperforming non-college-grads in the job market, modulo debt I guess), especially because the academy moves so slowly that by the time it has figured out how to prepare students for the economy of 2011 it'll be 2038.

a hoy hoy: YEAH NO KIDDIN

Do not go gentle into that good frogbs (silby), Friday, 2 September 2011 18:06 (3 years ago) Permalink

this is why high school is at least in part a weird mini liberal arts education it's becoming less of this all the time

remy bean, Friday, 2 September 2011 18:08 (3 years ago) Permalink

yeah I would like to see more discussion of the value of a liberal arts education itt. think a lot of ppl (though not all) who post to ILX prob have a degree in the liberal arts and went to liberal arts colleges?

dayo, Friday, 2 September 2011 18:08 (3 years ago) Permalink

did anybody actually have 'shop class' in high school?

dayo, Friday, 2 September 2011 18:08 (3 years ago) Permalink

my hs had it, I didn't take it

iatee, Friday, 2 September 2011 18:08 (3 years ago) Permalink

^^^we did and I managed to studiously avoid all of them

I can feel it in my spiritual hat (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 2 September 2011 18:09 (3 years ago) Permalink

we also had an auto-repair type class, I think

iatee, Friday, 2 September 2011 18:10 (3 years ago) Permalink

the stuff I learned in my hs journalism class - particularly how to write, use a computer, and lay things out - came in much handier professionally than anything I learned in college, really. but liberal arts degrees/colleges are not really about learning a specific subject matter imho, they're about training your mind to think critically and work in different contexts.

I would definitely be making more money in the same industry I'm in now if I'd gotten an engineering degree, but I always hated math.

I can feel it in my spiritual hat (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 2 September 2011 18:11 (3 years ago) Permalink

school is awful - full of false promises and useless work
memorization and paper achievements
any kind of real sense of desires to learn or create are put to the side

Birth Control is Sinful in the ILE Marriages (Latham Green), Friday, 2 September 2011 18:12 (3 years ago) Permalink

yeah 'critical thinking' is the rote response to people who question the value of a liberal arts education

I'm still trying to think through the true value of the ability to 'think critically' in the job market

dayo, Friday, 2 September 2011 18:14 (3 years ago) Permalink

dayo it was called the vocational wing in my hs

also folks, this is my line of work and i have a lot of relevant things to say, but i would really rather not discuss it publicly for a variety of reasons

xp - critical thinking is REALLY IMPORTANT esp if you don't have very good critical thinking skills

i drive a wood paneled station dragon (La Lechera), Friday, 2 September 2011 18:15 (3 years ago) Permalink

did anybody actually have 'shop class' in high school?

Was v sad when I had to give up woodshop b/c there was no room for it in the college-prep curriculum. It was down to shop or band, and marching band won.

Just think, I could have grown up to be a stoner!

brb recalibrating my check engine light (Laurel), Friday, 2 September 2011 18:16 (3 years ago) Permalink

I tend to take Dewey's line about the value of a liberal-arts-education in creating & nourishing a populace able to handle democracy

+ DFW's take in his Kenyon graduation address

Euler, Friday, 2 September 2011 18:17 (3 years ago) Permalink

oh I totally agree that critical thinking is implicitly and in and of itself a valuable skill, LL - but that's not how all employers see it

dayo, Friday, 2 September 2011 18:18 (3 years ago) Permalink

ps - i had shop class in middle school

it's an important skill to have as a human being, not as an employee

i drive a wood paneled station dragon (La Lechera), Friday, 2 September 2011 18:18 (3 years ago) Permalink

I think that the american liberal arts education actually contributes substantial economic value to this country - overall we had a much more adaptable job market in the late 20th century than most of the world. more engineers would be good too, but an economy can't be 50% engineers (and really would anyone want to live in a dystopia like that?) most contemporary jobs don't require specific training and in better economic times can be learned on-the-job.

said it in the other thread but the bigger problems are:
a. jobs! (I know underemployed engineers from good schools!)
b. cost

iatee, Friday, 2 September 2011 18:19 (3 years ago) Permalink

i do not work at a liberal arts school btw

i drive a wood paneled station dragon (La Lechera), Friday, 2 September 2011 18:20 (3 years ago) Permalink

liberal arts school can't really be blamed for 0 net job growth this month

iatee, Friday, 2 September 2011 18:21 (3 years ago) Permalink

last month, rather

iatee, Friday, 2 September 2011 18:21 (3 years ago) Permalink

schools

iatee, Friday, 2 September 2011 18:21 (3 years ago) Permalink

gonna put that one on the Ivies, as usual

wanna get some class resentment going on this thread also

Euler, Friday, 2 September 2011 18:22 (3 years ago) Permalink

ime the critical thinking tends to be "i wish i hadn't done a useless humanities degree"

Once Were Moderators (DG), Friday, 2 September 2011 18:22 (3 years ago) Permalink

The public university at which I work has increased tuition and enrollment geometrically in the last two years to compensate for evaporating state funding, with no commensurate strengthening of infrastructure.

The quality of students haven't changed much except I'm seeing more examples of mediocrities: girls getting psych degrees as a time killer before marriage because their parents press on them the importance of a college education, guys getting business degrees because, well, they want to start their own franchises, and journalism majors who don't realize how useless that degree is and always was.

Anakin Ska Walker (AKA Skarth Vader) (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 2 September 2011 18:22 (3 years ago) Permalink

true everywhere

Once Were Moderators (DG), Friday, 2 September 2011 18:23 (3 years ago) Permalink

an economy can't be 50% engineers (and really would anyone want to live in a dystopia like that?)

Would it be like this?

brb recalibrating my check engine light (Laurel), Friday, 2 September 2011 18:24 (3 years ago) Permalink

working nights did not come in handy today. someone called me about an hour into my sleep (10? 11am?) and I gave off the just the most generic dozed pitch, can't even remember what company they were calling from.

gay socialists smoking mushrooms with their illegal gardeners (a hoy hoy), Friday, 2 September 2011 18:24 (3 years ago) Permalink

lol @ 50% engineer economy; welcome to China :(

dayo, Friday, 2 September 2011 18:24 (3 years ago) Permalink

gonna put that one on the Ivies, as usual

wanna get some class resentment going on this thread also

― Euler, Friday, September 2, 2011 1:22 PM

ultimately we're being fucked by people in dc and wall street, lots of them went to ivies, all of them are rich, it's not completely hors-sujet

iatee, Friday, 2 September 2011 18:25 (3 years ago) Permalink

all we needs are farmers and abstract artists

Birth Control is Sinful in the ILE Marriages (Latham Green), Friday, 2 September 2011 18:27 (3 years ago) Permalink

problem with america is not enough grant woods

remy bean, Friday, 2 September 2011 18:31 (3 years ago) Permalink

"school is awful - full of false promises and useless work
memorization and paper achievements
any kind of real sense of desires to learn or create are put to the side"

i really view this as a positive when applied to the evil ambitions of... a lot of people frankly. what other civilizing institutions do we have other than compulsory education? I agree with Thiel in the sense that a lot of motivated people would be personally, selfishly better off not pursuing advanced degrees and doing startups straight from high school, but I disagree that it's a net positive for society.

Philip Nunez, Friday, 2 September 2011 18:31 (3 years ago) Permalink

it seems weird that so mnay people spend so much money on rent/mortgage - seems like just money going to rich banker types instead of food, healthfcare etc

Birth Control is Sinful in the ILE Marriages (Latham Green), Friday, 2 September 2011 18:32 (3 years ago) Permalink

food and health care $ is also mostly going to evil rich people

iatee, Friday, 2 September 2011 18:32 (3 years ago) Permalink

Nunez - that was just my individual experience - I did however enjoy doodling in the margins of notebooks and dyadreamin

Birth Control is Sinful in the ILE Marriages (Latham Green), Friday, 2 September 2011 18:32 (3 years ago) Permalink

we all dreamed of dyao in school

iatee, Friday, 2 September 2011 18:33 (3 years ago) Permalink

really Mr Spock, cant we have a spciaety where people dont have to pay fuckin mortgages!

Birth Control is Sinful in the ILE Marriages (Latham Green), Friday, 2 September 2011 18:33 (3 years ago) Permalink

otm xp

dayo, Friday, 2 September 2011 18:33 (3 years ago) Permalink

btw just so you guys know -- the hammer is coming down on higher ed w/r/t assessment and accountability for their claims. the HLC has issued a whole new system of criteria for accreditation that is designed to force institutions to account for how their time and money is being spent.

fyi

i drive a wood paneled station dragon (La Lechera), Friday, 2 September 2011 18:37 (3 years ago) Permalink

that's mostly w/r/t for-profit schools, which isn't what this thread is really about (tho it is a pretty important subject)

iatee, Friday, 2 September 2011 18:38 (3 years ago) Permalink

no it's not
it's all schools that want to be accredited

i drive a wood paneled station dragon (La Lechera), Friday, 2 September 2011 18:39 (3 years ago) Permalink

"no it's not
it's all schools that want to be accredited"

are we to accept this wholly as a truth!

Birth Control is Sinful in the ILE Marriages (Latham Green), Friday, 2 September 2011 18:39 (3 years ago) Permalink

the new accreditation process will apply to all schools that wish to be accredited by the HLC (mine is not for profit)

i drive a wood paneled station dragon (La Lechera), Friday, 2 September 2011 18:40 (3 years ago) Permalink

I'll belive it when I see it - mind the menace of such schools!

Birth Control is Sinful in the ILE Marriages (Latham Green), Friday, 2 September 2011 18:41 (3 years ago) Permalink

fwiw philosophy majors rank in the top three nationally on the LSAT, GMAT and GRE pretty much yearly; our only competition is physics & math iirc

lool

i'm interested in your 'just go to a state school argument' because how much does that then start closing doors to possible future careers? or at least certain career paths? i mean the % of ppl who are ever going to sit on the supreme court or be an svp of an investment bank or write for the simpsons or w/e is negligible already but the idea that anyone who cant afford/doesnt want to risk huge debt to pay for a private school shldn't even dream of it is p dispiriting

i mean 'private colleges are really expensive so don't go to them' is reasonable advice except: public schools are getting more expensive, only have so many spaces and is at odds w/ the idea that at least certain private schools are the 'only way' to make it certain professions. also at my large public university the % of tenured professors who did not attend an elite private college is hanging right around 15% w/ most of the coming from oxbridge/my own school. so, yknow...

Lamp, Friday, 2 September 2011 18:44 (3 years ago) Permalink

you don't really have a choice about believing it -- the new accreditation process was released at the 2011 HLC conference, so i can confirm that it's real

the lengths to which some schools will go to conceal their poor job placement numbers/career services? that i can't really say. but reporting it is a part of institutional assessment, and everyone has to do it.

i drive a wood paneled station dragon (La Lechera), Friday, 2 September 2011 18:45 (3 years ago) Permalink

i still dont understand this 'private schools are too expensive' thing -- it was much MORE affordable for me to go to a private liberal arts school than a public one

D-40, Friday, 2 September 2011 18:48 (3 years ago) Permalink

"you don't really have a choice about believing it -- the new accreditation process was released at the 2011 HLC conference, so i can confirm that it's real"

these things are always a red herring

Birth Control is Sinful in the ILE Marriages (Latham Green), Friday, 2 September 2011 18:49 (3 years ago) Permalink

there's also a gap growing w/r/t private schools in that the best schools can all pretty much give full-rides to the poor/middle class kids they admit. I think going to a no-name local private school is prob the worst deal you can get right now tho. xp

iatee, Friday, 2 September 2011 18:49 (3 years ago) Permalink

well that's if you go to a good private liberal arts school with a generous financial need policy xp to deej

dayo, Friday, 2 September 2011 18:49 (3 years ago) Permalink

a lot of third, fourth tier 'private liberal arts' colleges out there that will provide you w/ the same experience but for which you will probably have to finance your entire experience with loan money if you can't pay it upfront

dayo, Friday, 2 September 2011 18:50 (3 years ago) Permalink

yeah deej is point in case that this can really depend on someone's situation, which makes it even harder to talk about. but *overall* private schools are considerably more expensive.

iatee, Friday, 2 September 2011 18:50 (3 years ago) Permalink

haha basically what iatee said

dayo, Friday, 2 September 2011 18:50 (3 years ago) Permalink

"Creating the Climate for Continuous Learning is a distinct Strategy Forum intended specifically for institutions already experienced with AQIP. This Strategy Forum requires an institution to have submitted a Systems Portfolio to AQIP, undergone a Systems Appraisal, and received and analyzed its Systems Appraisal Feedback Report. Registration is open."

listen to this - lifted RIGHT OFF THEIR SITE

Birth Control is Sinful in the ILE Marriages (Latham Green), Friday, 2 September 2011 18:50 (3 years ago) Permalink

did you c/p that randomly or what

i drive a wood paneled station dragon (La Lechera), Friday, 2 September 2011 18:53 (3 years ago) Permalink

haha

iatee, Friday, 2 September 2011 18:53 (3 years ago) Permalink

:(

Birth Control is Sinful in the ILE Marriages (Latham Green), Friday, 2 September 2011 18:54 (3 years ago) Permalink

Yeah I had a friend in HS who went to Duke of all places because with financial aid it was cheaper than UVA. The financial aid budget is the biggest fiscal concern at my college; our operating budget was like 85% tuition and fees every year (compared to places that have much larger endowments and draw on them for operating budget every year). Basically the full-pay students fund financial aid every year for the ones getting an average like 50% discount on the sticker price.

Do not go gentle into that good frogbs (silby), Friday, 2 September 2011 18:59 (3 years ago) Permalink

"Principles of Good Practice in Adult Degree Completion Programs
In order to facilitate the evaluation of adult degree completion programs in member institutions, the Board of Trustees has adopted a set of kick-ass principles developed by a special task force, as a framework for program implementation. These principles also are used by team members in evaluating patterns of evidence during accreditation reviews."

did you c/p that randomly or what (Latham Green), Friday, 2 September 2011 19:01 (3 years ago) Permalink

haha

it's like a black hole of jargon over there

i drive a wood paneled station dragon (La Lechera), Friday, 2 September 2011 19:02 (3 years ago) Permalink

is this from univ. of utility data?

Philip Nunez, Friday, 2 September 2011 19:04 (3 years ago) Permalink

No College Student Left Behind is just around the corner, once you pass the nationally applied gen ed integrated learning objectives that seem imminent :-/

i drive a wood paneled station dragon (La Lechera), Friday, 2 September 2011 19:06 (3 years ago) Permalink

(i sincerely hope i'm wrong about that btw)

i drive a wood paneled station dragon (La Lechera), Friday, 2 September 2011 19:08 (3 years ago) Permalink

"These best practices have been developed by the regional accrediting commissions in response to the emergence of technologically mediated instruction offered at a distance as an important component of higher education. CAn I get a what what!? Expressing in detail what currently constitutes best practice in distance education, specifically electronically offered degree and certificate programs, shit is whack, they seek to address concerns that regional accreditation standards are not relevant to the new distributed learning environments, especially when those environments are experienced by offcampus students."

did you c/p that randomly or what (Latham Green), Friday, 2 September 2011 19:08 (3 years ago) Permalink

No College Student Left Behind is just around the corner, once you pass the nationally applied gen ed integrated learning objectives that seem imminent :-/

I think a better situation would be a national credentialing system - if you graduate w/ an BA (or if you don't) you should have to take and pass a competitive national test for your field. some sort of post-college (or college alternative) skills and intelligence measure. having an alternate way to prove yourself would eventually take some pressure of people going to college just for the sake of going to college.

iatee, Friday, 2 September 2011 19:12 (3 years ago) Permalink

tho fwiw self-taught lawyers still can't practice if the pass the bar etc.

iatee, Friday, 2 September 2011 19:12 (3 years ago) Permalink

ah yes, but who will design that test
that is the terrifying question (for me, at least)

i drive a wood paneled station dragon (La Lechera), Friday, 2 September 2011 19:13 (3 years ago) Permalink

its nicer to have to pass a test than pass a workload

did you c/p that randomly or what (Latham Green), Friday, 2 September 2011 19:13 (3 years ago) Permalink

you would say that

i drive a wood paneled station dragon (La Lechera), Friday, 2 September 2011 19:14 (3 years ago) Permalink

hope self-taught doctors are barred too

Once Were Moderators (DG), Friday, 2 September 2011 19:14 (3 years ago) Permalink

take some pressure off* xp

iatee, Friday, 2 September 2011 19:14 (3 years ago) Permalink

"The Commission invites participation in of one seven Regional Forums on Commission Initiatives. Think you can bring it? These forums provide the opportunity to hear about proposed changes in the Criteria for Accreditation and the development and implementation of the new Open Pathway model for continued accreditation, and to provide comments, ask questions, and raise issues.Also booty blast session and 1$ drafts"

did you c/p that randomly or what (Latham Green), Friday, 2 September 2011 19:16 (3 years ago) Permalink

if a self-taught doctor can pass the same test as one who had to spend 200k to learn that stuff, not sure what the problem would be. obv doctors require hospital and lab experience and the institutions for this alternative don't exist. but they could.

iatee, Friday, 2 September 2011 19:18 (3 years ago) Permalink

there's also a gap growing w/r/t private schools in that the best schools can all pretty much give full-rides to the poor/middle class kids they admit. I think going to a no-name local private school is prob the worst deal you can get right now tho. xp

― iatee, Friday, September 2, 2011 11:49 AM (17 minutes ago)

yeah, this wasn't quite the case 20 years ago, but the disparity was pretty large, in that my first choice college, while it may have given me a pre-eminent proto-hipster education, was a 2nd/3rd tier liberal arts college that waitlisted me for financial aid, and my second choice college gave me 1/2 a free ride, and that's how i ended up at an ivy.

sarahel, Friday, 2 September 2011 19:19 (3 years ago) Permalink

I think a better situation would be a national credentialing system - if you graduate w/ an BA (or if you don't) you should have to take and pass a competitive national test for your field. some sort of post-college (or college alternative) skills and intelligence measure. this isn't even well-implemented for high schools yet, i think colleges doing something like this is years/decades off. not to mention that a lot of fields can't be measured using a 'competitive national test' b/c education doesn't work like that.

having an alternate way to prove yourself would eventually take some pressure of people going to college just for the sake of going to college. - yes, absolutely.

remy bean, Friday, 2 September 2011 19:20 (3 years ago) Permalink

sarahel was your first choice sarahelawrence

dayo, Friday, 2 September 2011 19:22 (3 years ago) Permalink

(sorry I actually don't want to know the answer to that)

dayo, Friday, 2 September 2011 19:22 (3 years ago) Permalink

xp - it was Reed College in Portlandia

sarahel, Friday, 2 September 2011 19:23 (3 years ago) Permalink

fwiw I didn't know quite what I wanted to do and was mystified by all the college application stuff so while my peers had parents who were helping them around on it or looking at schools I felt oddly guilty -- I didn't know what I wanted to do, and that would help me pick a school, so why am I going to spend money and time applying to all these schools?

It didn't take me too long to figure out I was wrong once I was in college, but then I was all mopey and just tried to explain this to my parents so it'd count in for my sister, but then she ended up going to the state university, too, since she had reasons to stay close at the time and they gave her a full ride scholarship

unwarranted display names of ilx (mh), Friday, 2 September 2011 19:23 (3 years ago) Permalink

kinda lol at the School of the Museum of Fine Arts in Boston for such a huge tutiotn and there are no grades just at the end of the semester "pass or fail" based on them looking at your stuff - why pay for that

did you c/p that randomly or what (Latham Green), Friday, 2 September 2011 19:25 (3 years ago) Permalink

It's a decent article, though who the fuck thought that the example "girl gets swept into a fairly popular American rock band" was somehow
even remotely appropriate? Maybe a reunited LCD Soundsystem will save me from my temp job?

I'm certainly jaded after college and I find the most terrible thing about it is my current career path. I was able to get a student
employment job working medical admin and have since been bouncing from temp admin job to temp admin job for the past three years.
I can't complain about being gainfully employed, but the fact that I'm 26 with an MA and was only able to afford to turn my hot water on a month ago
is certainly depressing. Lately I've taken to working on my writing as a full time job. Though I'm reaching mixed success with that, it at least makes me feel like I'm not wasting the years I put into school.

Ryan, Friday, 2 September 2011 19:25 (3 years ago) Permalink

One though I keep having is that despite my ambivalence about having children (I don't believe I should reproduce personally, and adoption is a lot more of an ordeal than signing up for free baby delivery), I will be saving for their hypothetical college educations until I am quite positive that they are never going to manifest themselves in my life. Or my sister's life.

Do not go gentle into that good frogbs (silby), Friday, 2 September 2011 19:26 (3 years ago) Permalink

(xp to Latham) I dunno, it kind of makes sense to me? Why should you be graded on your output as a Masters' candidate artist? You either do the work or you don't, and the feedback is valuable but the grade is irrelevent.

remy bean, Friday, 2 September 2011 19:27 (3 years ago) Permalink

well then I will pass or fail you and your work for 30$ - don't worry - I'm awesome

did you c/p that randomly or what (Latham Green), Friday, 2 September 2011 19:29 (3 years ago) Permalink

i'm interested in your 'just go to a state school argument' because how much does that then start closing doors to possible future careers? or at least certain career paths? i mean the % of ppl who are ever going to sit on the supreme court or be an svp of an investment bank or write for the simpsons or w/e is negligible already but the idea that anyone who cant afford/doesnt want to risk huge debt to pay for a private school shldn't even dream of it is p dispiriting

There's another thread about this somewhere - I remember posting a study from five or six years ago that looked at the socioeconomic class of students who attend the top-tier colleges (public and private) - 75% were drawn from the top-quarter of the socioeconomic scale, 3% from the bottom quarter.

Given the representation of those institutions in the arts, upper echelons of the business world, politics, etc., it's essentially a self-perpetuating oligarchy.

It's one reason I didn't finish my fine arts degree from a run of the mill public 'national research university' (UT-Arlington, god knows how national it actually is) - what the fuck does that piece of paper do for me? Am I really competitive getting into a good MFA program vs someone with lesser work from SVA/an Ivy/etc.?

Kiarostami bag (milo z), Friday, 2 September 2011 19:30 (3 years ago) Permalink

in the art world that presumably these students are preparing for, it really is often just an issue of pass/fail

sarahel, Friday, 2 September 2011 19:31 (3 years ago) Permalink

is there an art world anymore?

did you c/p that randomly or what (Latham Green), Friday, 2 September 2011 19:32 (3 years ago) Permalink

what is art?

dayo, Friday, 2 September 2011 19:33 (3 years ago) Permalink

last year, i participated in a group discussion of art school MFA students and recent grads about a "just arts economy." it was very frustrating and i felt like an asshole.

sarahel, Friday, 2 September 2011 19:34 (3 years ago) Permalink

must have been painful

remy bean, Friday, 2 September 2011 19:36 (3 years ago) Permalink

what i meant to ask was whether the conversation flowed smooth and easy, or was hard and uncomfortable?

remy bean, Friday, 2 September 2011 19:36 (3 years ago) Permalink

the upshot was that 90% of them were upset that they had paid $30k-$40k a year in tuition and were not making a living as artists.

sarahel, Friday, 2 September 2011 19:36 (3 years ago) Permalink

I mean I think the "art world" was this rich patron thing that eventually just become irrelevant - Andy Wrhol was the last vestige IMO

did you c/p that randomly or what (Latham Green), Friday, 2 September 2011 19:37 (3 years ago) Permalink

my friend Sean, who has an MFA and makes a living as a financial planner tried to raise the issue of supply and demand, but they shot it down as hegemonical bs or something like that.

sarahel, Friday, 2 September 2011 19:38 (3 years ago) Permalink

There are more obscenely rich people today than when Warhol was alive.

Kiarostami bag (milo z), Friday, 2 September 2011 19:38 (3 years ago) Permalink

Oh no, there still some very wealthy people supporting artists. I think we call them "trustafarians" now.

unwarranted display names of ilx (mh), Friday, 2 September 2011 19:39 (3 years ago) Permalink

"the upshot was that 90% of them were upset that they had paid $30k-$40k a year in tuition and were not making a living as artists."

Shocker.

Fig On A Plate Cart (Alex in SF), Friday, 2 September 2011 19:40 (3 years ago) Permalink

I call them "people who should be gving ME money instead to make my shitty songs"

http://www.meca.edu/news/support-meca
actually we have one here - Roxxame Quimby

did you c/p that randomly or what (Latham Green), Friday, 2 September 2011 19:40 (3 years ago) Permalink

I'm kind of sad that democratizing art via the Internet has kind of taken the form of 20x200 (and similar), which is okay for photography but renders everything else they put out more decoration than art (because it's all just scans and inkjet prints, more like a poster you buy at the mall than 'art' with any kind of engagement with the artist).

Kiarostami bag (milo z), Friday, 2 September 2011 19:40 (3 years ago) Permalink

yeah like this is why we can't be telling people that college is a purely economic decision (even though the BLS indicates that it still has that effect). If you want to spend four years training as an artist, that is awesome and you might have a great time, but nobody should be telling you that you are going to graduate into a well-paying sculpture job.

Do not go gentle into that good frogbs (silby), Friday, 2 September 2011 19:41 (3 years ago) Permalink

I was in "the art world" allot at least in academics as a youngster and now I am fille dwith a sense of fear and loathing when ever I pass Maine COllege of Art

did you c/p that randomly or what (Latham Green), Friday, 2 September 2011 19:41 (3 years ago) Permalink

Is anyone telling sculpture students that? Cuz that would be truly irresponsible.

Fig On A Plate Cart (Alex in SF), Friday, 2 September 2011 19:42 (3 years ago) Permalink

do you know what they do? ... they ask your for an ARTISTS STATEMENT

did you c/p that randomly or what (Latham Green), Friday, 2 September 2011 19:43 (3 years ago) Permalink

COL!!! (crying out loud)

did you c/p that randomly or what (Latham Green), Friday, 2 September 2011 19:44 (3 years ago) Permalink

yeah s'what I'm saying, I don't know if anyone is telling them that, but cf. sarahel's anecdote; plenty of people still have an expectation that going to college and learning a lot about something could launch them into a career doing that thing. whereas to actually make that work out you need a lot of luck and tenacity.

Do not go gentle into that good frogbs (silby), Friday, 2 September 2011 19:45 (3 years ago) Permalink

genius art IMO

did you c/p that randomly or what (Latham Green), Friday, 2 September 2011 19:45 (3 years ago) Permalink

I don't know anyone who went to or considered going to a high-dollar art school (grad or undergrad) who thought of it as a wise investment monetarily. They either considered the debt and didn't care, had family money enough to not give a shit, or were too starry-eyed to consider the implications - but none of them thought it was a guarantee of income afterward.

One of my first photo professors has been a "senior lecturer" for a decade, which cured me of any desire to get my MFA and try to find a teaching job.

Kiarostami bag (milo z), Friday, 2 September 2011 19:47 (3 years ago) Permalink

hey at least he has a job

iatee, Friday, 2 September 2011 19:48 (3 years ago) Permalink

ALIHAJ - "at least I havea job" is everyone's current self-soothe

http://www.losanjealous.com/nfc/perm.php?c=38&q=22

did you c/p that randomly or what (Latham Green), Friday, 2 September 2011 19:49 (3 years ago) Permalink

maybe the difference between this generation and Gen X is that Gen X art students had a more realistic perspective on working as waiters and strippers to support themselves financially.

sarahel, Friday, 2 September 2011 19:52 (3 years ago) Permalink

ok let me get to Lamp's post above:

i'm interested in your 'just go to a state school argument' because how much does that then start closing doors to possible future careers? or at least certain career paths? i mean the % of ppl who are ever going to sit on the supreme court or be an svp of an investment bank or write for the simpsons or w/e is negligible already but the idea that anyone who cant afford/doesnt want to risk huge debt to pay for a private school shldn't even dream of it is p dispiriting

Who's to say whether a public school undergrad can't end up on the Supreme Court? Scalia went to Georgetown, which is quite a bit worse than the top public universities in America. but anxiety about closing doors on certain ~dreamy~ careers is legit---you're weighing risks when you make these choices, & you might think massive debt is worth the risk in order to get a chance, no matter how remote, of such a career. Or you might not! My argument is that aside from those dreamy choices, a public degree can be/generally is (unless drugs/laziness/etc) just as valuable as a private degree. To the extent that it's not, it's because "top" hs prospects choose private schools w/ big debt b/c they think those degrees signal ~success~. & then they get articles like the one atop this thread written about them.

i mean 'private colleges are really expensive so don't go to them' is reasonable advice except: public schools are getting more expensive, only have so many spaces and is at odds w/ the idea that at least certain private schools are the 'only way' to make it certain professions. also at my large public university the % of tenured professors who did not attend an elite private college is hanging right around 15% w/ most of the coming from oxbridge/my own school. so, yknow...

yeah I mean this discussion is hard b/c things depend on the locale. like the UC system has to reject pretty good people...or send them to Davis! whereas in other states, of the flyover type, we have lots of spots, & our grads go on to do lots of terrific things, albeit generally not on the coasts (which I know is a basic good to many of you). But another reply: I don't know which "certain professions" you have in mind; same as the ones above? most of my (fellow private school) undergrad friends have tech jobs of one sort or another, or are lawyers. Those are pretty normal upper-ish-middle-class things to do. I tend to worry more about "average" (upper-ish-)middle class people's aspirations; dreamers oughta know they run big risks no matter what school they choose.

lastly: in my world of tenured professors no one knows or cares where any one went to undergrad, & I've sat on several hiring committees in recent years.

Euler, Friday, 2 September 2011 19:52 (3 years ago) Permalink

nothing wrong with being a stripper, that IS art

did you c/p that randomly or what (Latham Green), Friday, 2 September 2011 19:54 (3 years ago) Permalink

like the UC system has to reject pretty good people...or send them to Davis!

The UC system and the CA State system have doubled or tripled tuition and fees in the past decade! If I were going to grad school now, there's no way that i'd be able to pay even part-time tuition with wages from a part-time job (which is what i did, except for my thesis semester)

sarahel, Friday, 2 September 2011 19:58 (3 years ago) Permalink

I really never hear good things about California's governance, economy, zoning laws, or flammability at this point.

Do not go gentle into that good frogbs (silby), Friday, 2 September 2011 20:00 (3 years ago) Permalink

I don't know anyone who went to or considered going to a high-dollar art school (grad or undergrad) who thought of it as a wise investment monetarily. They either considered the debt and didn't care, had family money enough to not give a shit, or were too starry-eyed to consider the implications - but none of them thought it was a guarantee of income afterward.

― Kiarostami bag (milo z), Friday, September 2, 2011 12:47 PM (4 minutes ago

I went to a high-dollar art school (albeit writing for screen/ tv) and thought - based on the statistics quoted by the program that it would be a wise investment. I considered the debt, did care, was reassured by the financial advisers at the school, and went for it. Never recouped, not even close.

remy bean, Friday, 2 September 2011 20:01 (3 years ago) Permalink

lol

markers, Friday, 2 September 2011 20:05 (3 years ago) Permalink

The thing is, my writing career probably would have been successful if I'd had 3-5 years after graduation to focus on it intently, w/o distraction and as a full-time profession. Some of the people in my graduating class did: and they were successful or are becoming very wealthy/respected/acknowledged now. But I was poor going in, poorer coming out, and unable to devote myself sufficiently to the pursuit for which I'd gone to school . So while the employment statistics (quoted as like 50% success rate, IIRC) I was told upon entry be accurate, and an okay gamble, the odds of me succeeding were always a lot, lot lower.

remy bean, Friday, 2 September 2011 20:08 (3 years ago) Permalink

"I went to a high-dollar art school (albeit writing for screen/ tv)"

brothers in foolishness arms.

strongo hulkington's ghost dad, Friday, 2 September 2011 20:09 (3 years ago) Permalink

Mike Schmidt had no use for art school

did you c/p that randomly or what (Latham Green), Friday, 2 September 2011 20:11 (3 years ago) Permalink

xp - yeah, my next door neighbor freshman year did that (the intent focus w/out distraction), i did not. She is now a celebrated playwright. I work in accounting.

sarahel, Friday, 2 September 2011 20:11 (3 years ago) Permalink

The thing is, my writing career probably would have been successful if I'd had 3-5 years after graduation to focus on it intently, w/o distraction and as a full-time profession.

couldn't you have found a really cheap place to live though--like in a weird part of the country, lived there, worked on your craft for a few years? just wondering/thinking out loud.

Mr. Que, Friday, 2 September 2011 20:13 (3 years ago) Permalink

like you know

http://www.rentals.com/Kansas/Wichita/

Mr. Que, Friday, 2 September 2011 20:15 (3 years ago) Permalink

is that a recent trend, or one making a resurgence -- "community discussions" about establishing artist/writer colonies in cheap areas of the US? 10 years ago everyone was talking about Detroit. Now I think it's South Dakota.

sarahel, Friday, 2 September 2011 20:20 (3 years ago) Permalink

I think they just call it the ghetto - oh wrong thread

did you c/p that randomly or what (Latham Green), Friday, 2 September 2011 20:21 (3 years ago) Permalink

couldn't you have found a really cheap place to live though--like in a weird part of the country, lived there, worked on your craft for a few years? just wondering/thinking out loud.

I did learn a lot when I was there – I got to make films, visit sets, talk to people who'd worked inside the industry, spend time with like-minded writers, chat it up in targeted groups and be mentored by "industry insders" while receiving incredibly profound and honest feedback. I paid a lot for 'access' and was provided it unstintingly. Maybe if I were more of a, err, go-getter, I could have arranged that access on my own and written and honed my craft for 4 years. But, honestly, I don't have anything negative to say about the quality of my education - it was good, and I don't regret it. I do regret not understanding the necessity of stockpiling $$$ or finding a crap job to let me work full-time on the writing after I left. I dislike that there wasn't a little caveat underneath the "50% of graduates work in the field of TV/film in ten years" that said "and they are often working in it when they enter/have family connections/come from wealthy backgrounds that allow them a single-minded pursuit of their craft" but really that is not too realistic to expect.

remy bean, Friday, 2 September 2011 20:22 (3 years ago) Permalink

live in Mom's cellar

did you c/p that randomly or what (Latham Green), Friday, 2 September 2011 20:23 (3 years ago) Permalink

There was a short documentary (sponsored by a skate brand?) recently about Detroit as artist's colony, so I think that's still often talked about.

Kiarostami bag (milo z), Friday, 2 September 2011 20:23 (3 years ago) Permalink

the whoel city of detroit? thats too much art

did you c/p that randomly or what (Latham Green), Friday, 2 September 2011 20:24 (3 years ago) Permalink

LG could you plz stop dropping dubious lols into this thread with every other post?

Do not go gentle into that good frogbs (silby), Friday, 2 September 2011 20:25 (3 years ago) Permalink

my heart just jumped into my throat

did you c/p that randomly or what (Latham Green), Friday, 2 September 2011 20:26 (3 years ago) Permalink

LG could you plz stop dropping dubious lols into this every thread with every other post?

Halal Spaceboy (WmC), Friday, 2 September 2011 20:27 (3 years ago) Permalink

there is nothing dubious about anything I do

did you c/p that randomly or what (Latham Green), Friday, 2 September 2011 20:28 (3 years ago) Permalink

xp - yeah, my next door neighbor freshman year did that (the intent focus w/out distraction), i did not. She is now a celebrated playwright. I work in accounting.

― sarahel, Friday, September 2, 2011 4:11 PM (13 minutes ago) Bookmark

heh there's a cousin in my family who inherited a nice chunk of change, spent several years devoting himself to writing, and is now an optometrist

dayo, Friday, 2 September 2011 20:28 (3 years ago) Permalink

holy crap, sarahel, was your next door neighbor freshman year sarah ruehl????

horseshoe, Friday, 2 September 2011 20:30 (3 years ago) Permalink

ruhl

horseshoe, Friday, 2 September 2011 20:30 (3 years ago) Permalink

ruhl roh

dayo, Friday, 2 September 2011 20:31 (3 years ago) Permalink

lol @ 50% engineer economy; welcome to China :(

― dayo, Friday, 2 September 2011 13:24 (1 hour ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Leaving non-vocation college education aside, which is definitely valuable and enriching. There is an oversupply of MBAs and JDs and an undersupply of Engineers in the US. If you pick an oversubscribed field you have to accept the risk that you won't get to practice what you train for.

As a side note I was very interested to hear recently that Ernst and Young (big four Accountancy firm) was hiring straight from A-Level in the UK and guaranteeing that salaries would match or exceed those of incoming graduates after 3 years. An apprenticeship by other means.

American Fear of Pranksterism (Ed), Friday, 2 September 2011 20:31 (3 years ago) Permalink

writing's so good that he has to optometrize you so you fully appreciate it

puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Friday, 2 September 2011 20:32 (3 years ago) Permalink

accounting is the ultimate "hey the world will always need ___________" job

dayo, Friday, 2 September 2011 20:32 (3 years ago) Permalink

I live in a building that is slowly becoming an artists colony ie everyone young is now on unemployment

puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Friday, 2 September 2011 20:34 (3 years ago) Permalink

I thought that was undertaker-ing. xp

Halal Spaceboy (WmC), Friday, 2 September 2011 20:34 (3 years ago) Permalink

you don't have to go to school to become an undertaker

dayo, Friday, 2 September 2011 20:35 (3 years ago) Permalink

oh wait you do

http://www.ehow.com/how_8117_become-mortician.html

dayo, Friday, 2 September 2011 20:36 (3 years ago) Permalink

You thought morticians didn't have to be trained/licensed?!

Halal Spaceboy (WmC), Friday, 2 September 2011 20:38 (3 years ago) Permalink

you do! unless you can APPRENTICE.

i actually turned down a chance to become an apprentice undertaker a few years back.

strongo hulkington's ghost dad, Friday, 2 September 2011 20:38 (3 years ago) Permalink

my 12th grade guidance counselor's degree was in mortuary sciences, which explains his cold handshake.

Anakin Ska Walker (AKA Skarth Vader) (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 2 September 2011 20:39 (3 years ago) Permalink

btw mortuary biz doing as shitty as everything else these days according to my uncle.

strongo hulkington's ghost dad, Friday, 2 September 2011 20:39 (3 years ago) Permalink

xp but how would you explain his death erection?

dayo, Friday, 2 September 2011 20:39 (3 years ago) Permalink

You thought morticians didn't have to be trained/licensed?!

― Halal Spaceboy (WmC), Friday, September 2, 2011 4:38 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark

seems pretty easy - shovel the corpse into a furnace, collect $200

dayo, Friday, 2 September 2011 20:40 (3 years ago) Permalink

btw mortuary biz doing as shitty as everything else these days according to my uncle.

we can fix this by raising the Social Security age.

Anakin Ska Walker (AKA Skarth Vader) (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 2 September 2011 20:40 (3 years ago) Permalink

not gonna lie though -- going by dude's house, mortuary game is tight during times of plenty when people can afford those amenties like a coffin and a plot.

strongo hulkington's ghost dad, Friday, 2 September 2011 20:42 (3 years ago) Permalink

maybe he keeps all his money in the vault... the cold vault.

dayo, Friday, 2 September 2011 20:43 (3 years ago) Permalink

pry the money from his cold dead hands

Anakin Ska Walker (AKA Skarth Vader) (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 2 September 2011 20:43 (3 years ago) Permalink

lastly: in my world of tenured professors no one knows or cares where any one went to undergrad, & I've sat on several hiring committees in recent years.

well being a lot closer to admissions than to tenure i feel like 'people' care at least a little. but really, and even if 'tenured professor' is approaching the type of rarified position currently occupied by like head of WME, it was more an attempt to test a basic assumption i have against some easily accessible real world data. and as another anecdote my dad was a senior executive on wall street and weve talked abt this a little: at some point it doesnt matter if you went to princeton or u nebraska, what matters is the work youve done for the firm. if they were considering promoting someone to vp they wouldnt consider undergrad at all. but a hell of lot more candidates for vp went to princeton than u nebraska
i guess my point is: i dont think going to u michigan or uva or any other well regarded state school makes it impossible to work on wall street or at a top law firm or management consulting firm or think tank or entertainment conglomerate or talent agency or government agency but i think it makes it harder? and maybe its a good trade to simply pay less tuition and have to shine a little brighter and work a little harder than a harvard alumni would? but i think the problem is the perception that things are made easier and that makes it harder to make the best choice as a 17 yo? like:

My argument is that aside from those dreamy choices, a public degree can be/generally is (unless drugs/laziness/etc) just as valuable as a private degree. To the extent that it's not, it's because "top" hs prospects choose private schools w/ big debt b/c they think those degrees signal ~success~. & then they get articles like the one atop this thread written about them.

but to what extent are smart, ambitious hs students to blame for the sort of signaling thats going on here? this is a p hardnosed calculation for someone to be making at this point in their lives, yknow?

Lamp, Friday, 2 September 2011 20:45 (3 years ago) Permalink

there is also the perception that "you only do this once, so make it count" wrt going to college, somehow makes the debt 'worth it'

dayo, Friday, 2 September 2011 20:47 (3 years ago) Permalink

i think i do miss not being able to hang around old-money types by not going to a private school. that's a magical opportunity lost to me, like having a unicorn for a roommate, so maybe harry potter is to blame for this aura around private school?

Philip Nunez, Friday, 2 September 2011 20:54 (3 years ago) Permalink

horseshoe: yes, that's who it was.

sarahel, Friday, 2 September 2011 22:27 (3 years ago) Permalink

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/on-innovations/president-obama-there-is-no-engineer-shortage/2011/09/01/gIQADpmpuJ_story.html

this is a big problem

And, sadly, our top engineering graduates don’t always become engineers. They move into finance or management consulting — both of which pay far higher salaries than engineering. I have seen the dilemma that my engineering students at at Duke University have faced. Do they take a job in civil engineering that pays $70,000, or join big Wall Street financial firm and make $120,000? With the hefty student loans that hang over their heads, most have made the financially sensible decision. In some years, half of our graduates have ended up taking jobs outside of engineering. Instead of developing new types of medical devices, renewable energy sources and ways to sustain the environment, my most brilliant students are designing new ways to help our investment banks engineer the financial system.

dayo, Friday, 2 September 2011 22:30 (3 years ago) Permalink

"Run the World (Goldman Sachs)"

J0rdan S., Friday, 2 September 2011 22:33 (3 years ago) Permalink

my college was basically a feeder school for goldman sachs

remy bean, Friday, 2 September 2011 22:34 (3 years ago) Permalink

I think every college is a feeder school for goldman sachs

dayo, Friday, 2 September 2011 22:35 (3 years ago) Permalink

it isn't gonna win me any friends, i know, but i've gotta admit that i actually have major thorny ethical issues w/ a lot of MBAs going to work for these big bank/finance firms, even in lowly "respectable" capacities.

remy bean, Friday, 2 September 2011 22:38 (3 years ago) Permalink

it's not just MBAs that go to work for big bank/finance firms! lots of undergrads go straight from college. it kinda sucks but big banks/finance firms are probably one of the last 'meritocratic' hirers left in America. fuckers

dayo, Friday, 2 September 2011 22:41 (3 years ago) Permalink

yeah, true. communications/political science majors were the first ones drafted from my undergrad.

remy bean, Friday, 2 September 2011 22:43 (3 years ago) Permalink

horseshoe: yes, that's who it was.

― sarahel, Friday, September 2, 2011 6:27 PM (18 minutes ago) Bookmark

ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh what is she like i am mildly obsessed with her

horseshoe, Friday, 2 September 2011 22:46 (3 years ago) Permalink

as somebody who knew that getting the degrees i did wasn't going to make me a millionaire or anything, i still think that i learned quite a bit and gained a fair amount of insight/entre into certain worlds— most are arts-related, but that's what i dig, so whatever.

what i resent is that no one will hire me. at this point, i'm working on a business plan with a lawyer who wants to start this unique research agglomeration site for other lawyers, as i have worked as a paralegal in the past, and can zoom around WestLaw and LexisNexis etc. also, duh, i know the internet better than most lawyers above the age of 35.

(BTW— having training and experience as a paralegal and legal researcher means nothing if you did it on the other side of the country, as i have found out the hard way :( )

jizz inside of your nose (the table is the table), Saturday, 3 September 2011 00:08 (3 years ago) Permalink

i guess my point is: i dont think going to u michigan or uva or any other well regarded state school makes it impossible to work on wall street or at a top law firm or management consulting firm or think tank or entertainment conglomerate or talent agency or government agency but i think it makes it harder? and maybe its a good trade to simply pay less tuition and have to shine a little brighter and work a little harder than a harvard alumni would? but i think the problem is the perception that things are made easier and that makes it harder to make the best choice as a 17 yo?

I feel like mich/uva are exceptions - they're generally considered 'better' than all but a handful of private schools and their student body composition is pretty similar to those private schools. but I think focusing too much on them is misleading too, cause these days all the schools 'better' than them offer substantial aid. most 18 y/o's aren't blessed w/ that kinda decision to begin with - they have to make much more subtle calculations. harvard vs. umich is easy - howbout, idk, rutgers vs. bard? for someone 100% intent on going into certain fields, grad school, med school, the private school is generally a safer decision, even if it means massive debt. for someone who just wants to work an office job, the marginal gain might not be worth it. but most people don't know what they want to do w/ the rest of their lives at 18, and these calculations can get pretty complex.

why we allow 18 y/os make complex financial analysis w/ 100s of thousands of dollars, idk.

iatee, Saturday, 3 September 2011 00:57 (3 years ago) Permalink

er, why we allow them to do complex financial analysis*

iatee, Saturday, 3 September 2011 00:58 (3 years ago) Permalink

^^ otm

If a kid right out of high school up and decided to buy a house (expensive car, condo, whatever is comparable) people would be puzzled, but commit to likely borrow that much cash for school and it's like "oh, that's cool."

unwarranted display names of ilx (mh), Saturday, 3 September 2011 01:00 (3 years ago) Permalink

well, an expensive car is a horrible investment

D-40, Saturday, 3 September 2011 01:01 (3 years ago) Permalink

you can't sell your degree back

iatee, Saturday, 3 September 2011 01:01 (3 years ago) Permalink

a BA from somewhere is almost always 'worth it' but there are no shortage of graduate degrees - many from 'top colleges' - that are worse investments than an expensive car

iatee, Saturday, 3 September 2011 01:02 (3 years ago) Permalink

i dunno i think you can come up w/ a better example. a car is pretty much the worst expensive investment you can make

D-40, Saturday, 3 September 2011 01:03 (3 years ago) Permalink

as soon as you drive off the lot etc etc

D-40, Saturday, 3 September 2011 01:03 (3 years ago) Permalink

well yes, also morally

iatee, Saturday, 3 September 2011 01:04 (3 years ago) Permalink

but I mean if you live in sprawlsville and need to get to your job, a cheap car is an investment that allows you to get to your job, the actual value of the car is going to go down but that's not the reason you bought it

iatee, Saturday, 3 September 2011 01:05 (3 years ago) Permalink

and if you buy an expensive car, it's also not because you think it's going to increase in value. you buy it for social reasons, personal reasons, display name reasons, also to get places. but if you lose your job you can sell it. it's worth something as an object.

whereas college degrees - many of which cost as much as expensive cars - *are* generally considered financial investments. I buy degree X because it will increase my earnings potential in the long-run. (also cause it's fun to go to college, I want to meet girls, whatever, but if the investment factor wasn't there it'd be hard to justify the price. whereas expensive cars are veblen goods - people want them because of what they represent, not because a 100k car is gonna get you to work better than a 20k car)

iatee, Saturday, 3 September 2011 01:13 (3 years ago) Permalink

well i just mean the resale value on cars is much worse than like any other product.

my technics have if anything gone up since i bought them, in contrast

D-40, Saturday, 3 September 2011 01:14 (3 years ago) Permalink

I was going to say mortgage but the original nytimes thread reminded me real estate is way more expensive than $100-200k in a lot of places

unwarranted display names of ilx (mh), Saturday, 3 September 2011 01:14 (3 years ago) Permalink

whereas college degrees - many of which cost as much as expensive cars - *are* generally considered financial investments. I buy degree X because it will increase my earnings potential in the long-run. (also cause it's fun to go to college, I want to meet girls, whatever, but if the investment factor wasn't there it'd be hard to justify the price. whereas expensive cars are veblen goods - people want them because of what they represent, not because a 100k car is gonna get you to work better than a 20k car)

― iatee, Friday, September 2, 2011 8:13 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i think id argue ppl go to college for similar reasons as buying a car -- what a degree represents, the status it confers, etc

D-40, Saturday, 3 September 2011 01:15 (3 years ago) Permalink

(in addition to the investment)

D-40, Saturday, 3 September 2011 01:15 (3 years ago) Permalink

I think that's true, but removing that factor from the 'financial investment' factor is difficult because they're related - do you want to go to college to fit in w/ the educated / upper middle class, or because it's historically the way people end up educated and upper middle class?

I mean, how much does a dartmouth degree impress people if you're 40 and you make minimum wage?

iatee, Saturday, 3 September 2011 01:23 (3 years ago) Permalink

posts that hit a little too close to home

horseshoe, Saturday, 3 September 2011 01:24 (3 years ago) Permalink

:( sorry I was trying to pick someplace nobody here went

iatee, Saturday, 3 September 2011 01:26 (3 years ago) Permalink

haha i didn't go there also this thread is otm

horseshoe, Saturday, 3 September 2011 01:26 (3 years ago) Permalink

I went to a tier 9 public school and I have a good job and all this shit about my generation being broke and unemployed/underemployed makes me feel guilty in one part, and in three parts just incredibly incredibly fortunate

ima.tumblr.com (@imsothin) (m bison), Saturday, 3 September 2011 01:56 (3 years ago) Permalink

I say good job in the sense that I make a living and I love what I do, I'm not pulling engineer or Goldman sax money by any means

ima.tumblr.com (@imsothin) (m bison), Saturday, 3 September 2011 01:56 (3 years ago) Permalink

fyi i am a college dropout livin the dream of a stable, reasonably paid (i live fine in brooklyn) job in retail.

one dis leads to another (ian), Saturday, 3 September 2011 02:23 (3 years ago) Permalink

also imo college was the biggest waste of time/money ever.

one dis leads to another (ian), Saturday, 3 September 2011 02:23 (3 years ago) Permalink

and i learned way more abt myself & how to interface with the world thru day-to-day living in nyc than i did in the classroom.

one dis leads to another (ian), Saturday, 3 September 2011 02:24 (3 years ago) Permalink

(i learned very little in terms of 'knowledge' at school outside of a few classes--one on science & ethics and another on middle eastern music.)

one dis leads to another (ian), Saturday, 3 September 2011 02:24 (3 years ago) Permalink

people should get a degree just for surviving in nyc imo

iatee, Saturday, 3 September 2011 02:25 (3 years ago) Permalink

also otm in that i do feel incredibly fortunate that i have a job i don't hate in a field that interests me, when tons of the folks i went to school with remain unemployed or employed in positions they loathe. xpppppp

one dis leads to another (ian), Saturday, 3 September 2011 02:26 (3 years ago) Permalink

(i learned very little in terms of 'knowledge' at school outside of a few classes--one on science & ethics and another on middle eastern music.)

I learned a lot in college, in terms of knowledge. but i learn most by talking/discussing, and i was blindly fortunate to choose a school that made chatter the dominant form of instruction. But ... I learned a lot more from the social experience than the academic, and a lot of it was kind of ugly growing up and making mistakes. And I got very bad grades, mostly. But I don't regret it. I wouldn't have survived in a city, not at 18, not at 19...

remy bean, Saturday, 3 September 2011 02:28 (3 years ago) Permalink

I guess I'm saying 'different strokes' with a lot more words.

remy bean, Saturday, 3 September 2011 02:29 (3 years ago) Permalink

I posted this in the other thread but I think it's good so everyone shoudl read it cause it dispels the myth of 'you get a BA to learn valuable knowledge and skills': http://www.quickanded.com/2011/05/is-higher-education-a-bubble-fraud-conspiracy-ponzi-scheme-part-ii.html

it's all signals man. well, not all, and not for everyone. but mostly.

iatee, Saturday, 3 September 2011 02:33 (3 years ago) Permalink

Yeah, another flavor to all of this is that since, what, world war II, stating the obvious truth that "college isn't for everybody" has had a sort of reactionary and anti-democratic flavor; untold effort has been expended by K-12 educators to get kids from underrepresented backgrounds into college. None of those folks are going to talk to you about why college might turn out to be a waste of time and money.

Do not go gentle into that good frogbs (silby), Saturday, 3 September 2011 02:33 (3 years ago) Permalink

well sure. i think a lot of my college experience was impacted by my fairly negative attitude & overall disappointment with the way things actually were--mandatory critical writing classes at a 10th grade level, professors more interested in teaching you ~how to approach things~ than the specifics of those things, etc. idk, weird time in my life.xp 2 remy re: diff strokes

one dis leads to another (ian), Saturday, 3 September 2011 02:34 (3 years ago) Permalink

Finance interns make an average of about $13,000 for their ~10 week summer program. And they still complain about having to sometimes file.

Yerac, Saturday, 3 September 2011 02:36 (3 years ago) Permalink

I think what we're getting at here is that college can be good for signaling and can also even be good for the idealistic hippie academic reasons that some of us still like to believe in, but a lot of 18 year olds don't know what they want out of the process and aren't provided with information that might help them make the most of their time and their or their parents' money.

Do not go gentle into that good frogbs (silby), Saturday, 3 September 2011 02:41 (3 years ago) Permalink

I'm an example--I've dropped (or been thrown) out of higher ed four times starting when I was 19.

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Saturday, 3 September 2011 02:49 (3 years ago) Permalink

harvard vs. umich is easy - howbout, idk, rutgers vs. bard? for someone 100% intent on going into certain fields, grad school, med school, the private school is generally a safer decision, even if it means massive debt. for someone who just wants to work an office job, the marginal gain might not be worth it. but most people don't know what they want to do w/ the rest of their lives at 18, and these calculations can get pretty complex.

― iatee, Friday, September 2, 2011 8:57 PM Bookmark

I'm pretty sure this is just not true, i.e. you would probably stand just as good a chance for law school/MBA/med school/PhD programs and most fields coming out of Rutgers as Bard. I could see Bard maybe giving you an edge in some field like media or the arts, where cultural capital is highly valued, but those fields pay jack anyway.

Helping 3 (Hurting 2), Saturday, 3 September 2011 04:16 (3 years ago) Permalink

bard was a bad example, I was just trying to think of a regional 'decent' liberal arts school

anything on bottom half of this list would be better: http://www.wsjclassroomedition.com/pdfs/wsj_college_092503.pdf

iatee, Saturday, 3 September 2011 04:24 (3 years ago) Permalink

anyway talking to one of my friends who (after months of desperation) just yesterday got a pretty good gov't job. was the peace corps job fair and not her elite university that got her a job, in the end.

iatee, Saturday, 3 September 2011 04:33 (3 years ago) Permalink

btw something worth considering is that people with BAs or higher have an unemployment rate of 4.3

max, Saturday, 3 September 2011 12:18 (3 years ago) Permalink

not that i dont agree that theres something "wrong" with the system, but unemployment rises precipitously the less education you have. which makes college seem like a not-horrible investment. depending on how much youre paying for it!

max, Saturday, 3 September 2011 12:19 (3 years ago) Permalink

for reference: http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t04.htm

max, Saturday, 3 September 2011 12:19 (3 years ago) Permalink

also cards on the table i am a liberal weenie type who would like everyone to go to college for the sake of going to college, what is the point of living in the richest and most technologically complex society on the planet if were not at least making the effort to give everyone the tools to talk about good books

max, Saturday, 3 September 2011 12:21 (3 years ago) Permalink

I borrowed $160000 so I could learn how to talk about what I talk about when I talk about running

dayo, Saturday, 3 September 2011 12:29 (3 years ago) Permalink

actually that wasn't a very good book sorry

dayo, Saturday, 3 September 2011 12:30 (3 years ago) Permalink

but at least "you" have a job!

max, Saturday, 3 September 2011 12:31 (3 years ago) Permalink

I borrowed 160000 so I could work in a cafe and listen to other people talk about how to talk about what I talk about when I talk about running

dayo, Saturday, 3 September 2011 12:37 (3 years ago) Permalink

DAYO!!!!! my dear boy

ima.tumblr.com (@imsothin) (m bison), Saturday, 3 September 2011 12:38 (3 years ago) Permalink

if I were the president
I would wave a magic student loan forgiveness wand

ima.tumblr.com (@imsothin) (m bison), Saturday, 3 September 2011 12:42 (3 years ago) Permalink

then everybody could join an indie rock band

dayo, Saturday, 3 September 2011 12:43 (3 years ago) Permalink

they don't have to,they could be rappers, or noise bands, or musical theater dudes, I mean the world is your oyster without student loans

ima.tumblr.com (@imsothin) (m bison), Saturday, 3 September 2011 12:45 (3 years ago) Permalink

you could become a dockworker!

dayo, Saturday, 3 September 2011 12:45 (3 years ago) Permalink

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2011/09/can-the-middle-class-be-saved/8600/?single_page=true

still making my way through this article, not exclusively about college grads but does contain this

The return on education has risen in recent decades, producing more-severe income stratification. But even among the meritocratic elite, the economy’s evolution has produced a startling divergence. Since 1993, more than half of the nation’s income growth has been captured by the top 1 percent of earners, and the gains have grown larger over time: from 2002 to 2007, out of every three dollars of national income growth, the top 1 percent of earners captured two. Nearly 2 million people started college in 2002—1,630 of them at Harvard—but among them only Mark Zuckerberg is worth more than $10 billion today; the rise of the super-elite is not a product of educational differences. In part, it is a natural outcome of widening markets and technological revolution, which are creating much bigger winners much faster than ever before—a result that’s not even close to being fully played out, and one reinforced strongly by the political influence that great wealth brings.

Recently, as technology has improved and emerging-market countries have sent more people to college, economic pressures have been moving up the educational ladder in the United States. “It’s useful to make a distinction between college and post-college,” Autor told me. “Among people with professional and even doctoral (degrees), in general the job market has been very good for a very long time, including recently. The group of highly educated individuals who have not done so well recently would be people who have a four-year college degree but nothing beyond that. Opportunities have been less good, wage growth has been less good, the recession has been more damaging. They’ve been displaced from mid-managerial or organizational positions where they don’t have extremely specialized, hard-to-find skills.”

College graduates may be losing some of their luster for reasons beyond technology and trade. As more Americans have gone to college, Autor notes, the quality of college education has become arguably more inconsistent, and the signaling value of a degree from a nonselective school has perhaps diminished. Whatever the causes, “a college degree is not the kind of protection against job loss or wage loss that it used to be.”

Without doubt, it is vastly better to have a college degree than to lack one. Indeed, on a relative basis, the return on a four-year degree is near its historic high. But that’s largely because the prospects facing people without a college degree have been flat or falling. Throughout the aughts, incomes for college graduates barely budged. In a decade defined by setbacks, perhaps that should occasion a sort of wan celebration. “College graduates aren’t doing badly,” says Timothy Smeeding, an economist at the University of Wisconsin and an expert on inequality. But “all the action in earnings is above the B.A. level.”

dayo, Saturday, 3 September 2011 13:14 (3 years ago) Permalink

from the same article, re: degree creep

All of that said, the overall pattern of change in the U.S. labor market suggests that in the next decade or more, a larger proportion of Americans may need to take work in occupations that have historically required little skill and paid low wages. Analysis by David Autor indicates that from 1999 to 2007, low-skill jobs grew substantially as a share of all jobs in the United States. And while the lion’s share of jobs lost during the recession were middle-skill jobs, job growth since then has been tilted steeply toward the bottom of the economy; according to a survey by the National Employment Law Project, three-quarters of American job growth in 2010 came within industries paying, on average, less than $15 an hour. One of the largest challenges that Americans will face in the coming years will be doing what we can to make the jobs that have traditionally been near the bottom of the economy better, more secure, and more fulfilling—in other words, more like middle-class jobs.

dayo, Saturday, 3 September 2011 13:54 (3 years ago) Permalink

also cards on the table i am a liberal weenie type who would like everyone to go to college for the sake of going to college, what is the point of living in the richest and most technologically complex society on the planet if were not at least making the effort to give everyone the tools to talk about good books

I think this is true, but there's no reason it has to be done using today's college education structure. I mean we're operating w/ a basic model that's been around for centuries (okay it's a lot different today, but we've inherited the overall structure), not because it's the best of all possible ways to teach 18 year olds how to talk about books / create signals for the job market, but more because...well, it's there. in 2011 it still gets the job done. a BA is still a good investment, overall, I agree. but if you look at the trends w/r/t cost, value, risk - I don't think our current system is on a sustainable path. the best comparison is w/ our health care system.

another old blog post by the same author:

http://www.quickanded.com/2010/08/uc-world.html

basically the problem w/ online education today is that it lacks rigor, post-degree signaling, and it's mostly run by evil for-profit companies. but can you, in theory, get the equivalent of a *college education* online? absolutely. (this is harder w/ science and lab courses, but I suppose some institution could create a private lab an online student could go to.)

but basically, if college is just about 'learning how to talk about good books', there's no reason why we can't create a cheap, scalable way for people to learn the same stuff.

iatee, Saturday, 3 September 2011 14:21 (3 years ago) Permalink

yes i agree with all of that!

max, Saturday, 3 September 2011 14:41 (3 years ago) Permalink

"but can you, in theory, get the equivalent of a *college education* online? absolutely"

stomach flu worse today so p much all I can manage is "lol"

evidence-less techno Utopianism

I mean it's coming but the point is that it's gonna be shitty, cheap but shitty, & we'll make big money off it & maybe it'll be good enough for a lot of shitty white-ish collar work but that's not the Dewey dream & im gonna put my stake in that dream over further cheap atomized memorization in order to serve the ruling class

Euler, Saturday, 3 September 2011 14:41 (3 years ago) Permalink

yeah I'm sure you can get one kind of college education through online services, but will it be equivalent to the traditional idea of a college education? by what metrics will you measure this?

dayo, Saturday, 3 September 2011 14:44 (3 years ago) Permalink

what's the evidence that our current system is actually working when it comes to giving someone 4 years of education? it appears to be performing worse than ever:

http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2011/01/18/study_finds_large_numbers_of_college_students_don_t_learn_much

45 percent of students "did not demonstrate any significant improvement in learning" during the first two years of college.

you don't think an online model can compete with...this?

iatee, Saturday, 3 September 2011 14:47 (3 years ago) Permalink

well I guess that depends on what your goal is - to outperform middle of the pack 4 year colleges, or to approximate the kind of education offered at a top tier school

dayo, Saturday, 3 September 2011 14:52 (3 years ago) Permalink

Theoretically this is possible, because the technology is there but

a) the interaction between students/student-and-teacher will always be mediated, and
b) the price will be roughly equivalent to traditional school b/c the model for 'quality education' will always be plain ol' college, not some other (better, more equitable and Dewean ideal) system of learning and dissemination of material
c) an online degree of any merit whatsoever requires roughly the same amount of attention and ability from professors, TAs, and adminstrative staff.

So there is an argument to be made about accessibility and customizability of a degree done online, and its but if it's done correctly it is neither cost-saving (at least for labor and materials) nor time-saving.

remy bean, Saturday, 3 September 2011 14:53 (3 years ago) Permalink

also not sure how an online model would ever replicate the social aspect of college, which is not really easy to quantify!

dayo, Saturday, 3 September 2011 14:55 (3 years ago) Permalink

I'm involved in the tests they're talking about; we're implementing the collegiate learning whatever this year. It tests skills that ought to have taught in elementary school (crit thinking etc). Let's work on stuff there! and in pre-k

also I read ilx & see how seriously a decently smart community took college, imagine what others are like. A lot of people aren't ready for college at 18

like should we just dumb things down? What's the point?

Euler, Saturday, 3 September 2011 14:57 (3 years ago) Permalink

or to approximate the kind of education offered at a top tier school

Why would you need to do this for people who otherwise might not go to college at all? A much less rigorous level of direction toward thinking/reasoning/critical skills would be just fine, probably. This is not a slur. People who get their livelihood by learning a trade are not also at the same time going to be the nation's foremost scholars. If they're using an online method, it doesn't have to approximate the offerings of an ivy or something.

brb recalibrating my check engine light (Laurel), Saturday, 3 September 2011 14:58 (3 years ago) Permalink

fwiw i've taken a few classes on line and they were - save one - uniformly terrible. mostly, subject-area professors are pretty unsavvy, conservative, and old-fashioned in their computer usage, and schools don't want to invest in the video technology that would make online tutoring/mentorship/discussion actually useful. the one valuable online class i took involved weekly skype check-ins with the professor, t.a.,; streaming video lectures with online chatting & question submitting, a lively discussion board, and a lot of free resources (.pdfs) provided inline in the course framework.

remy bean, Saturday, 3 September 2011 14:58 (3 years ago) Permalink

well I guess that depends on what your goal is - to outperform middle of the pack 4 year colleges, or to approximate the kind of education offered at a top tier school

online university doesn't need to complete with harvard. most of the country goes to middle of the pack 4 year colleges - outperforming and underpricing that model would be enough.

iatee, Saturday, 3 September 2011 15:01 (3 years ago) Permalink

xp iatee otm.

To remy: I'm not saying the tech or the methodology is there right now, you're the expert on this stuff! But even for a hypothetical future.

Fwiw I went to an expensive-ish liberal arts school, hated it, hated my classes, took a bunch of crap that I don't remember because I didn't have any framework to put it in because I grew up in a box where we didn't even watch the nightly news because it showed sensationalistic, violent, depressing stories. I needed another LIFETIME to grow up before I went to college. Would have been better served by working some low-level job and just living.

brb recalibrating my check engine light (Laurel), Saturday, 3 September 2011 15:02 (3 years ago) Permalink

as noted in the article, the keyword is rigor. if an online unversity program is *very hard* it'll be a the path towards gaining respect, esp when getting a generic BA from local U is easier than ever.

iatee, Saturday, 3 September 2011 15:03 (3 years ago) Permalink

be on the path

iatee, Saturday, 3 September 2011 15:03 (3 years ago) Permalink

for sure, laurel.

I also think it's interesting that word 'rigorous' is currently so very loaded in elementary education. In my experience 'rigorous' is a cipher for 'quantifiable STEM and LA knowledges and discrete skills and abilities' as opposed to the more holistic, vocational, child-sensitive, broad-based, social science and socially/artistically inclusive curriculum that would actually be more valuable to pretty much everybody. Obv. I'm not parsing your use of 'rigor' that way, but even if I do I think the point stands that 'rigor' is much less important than whole-child education.

remy bean, Saturday, 3 September 2011 15:03 (3 years ago) Permalink

STEM = Science, Technology, Engineering, Mathematics. Education is full of the most absurd acronyms.

remy bean, Saturday, 3 September 2011 15:04 (3 years ago) Permalink

ok laurel - but if you argue for a less rigorous, online approach, what separates that from phoenix university?

dayo, Saturday, 3 September 2011 15:06 (3 years ago) Permalink

basically I think it's amazing that America has such an amazing university system given how incurious our population is, & it's sad that we're gonna wash that away to save a few bucks & lose the last, great hope of mankind

Euler, Saturday, 3 September 2011 15:08 (3 years ago) Permalink

well blame the people who run those universities!

iatee, Saturday, 3 September 2011 15:08 (3 years ago) Permalink

also our state gov'ts

iatee, Saturday, 3 September 2011 15:09 (3 years ago) Permalink

and I'm still talking under the influence of that atlantic article, but is there any evidence that the market for middle class jobs - i.e. jobs that pay $40-60k (or even 80!) and would thus be a reasonable goal for someone who enters a middle of the pack 4 year college or online equivalent - is growing? what use is training someone for a middle class job or for trade if those jobs aren't there in the first place?

dayo, Saturday, 3 September 2011 15:09 (3 years ago) Permalink

also us news and world report

iatee, Saturday, 3 September 2011 15:09 (3 years ago) Permalink

Re "rigorous": Hm yes, I was just looking for a more neutral word to describe a less advanced, slower-paced (maybe?), program that would assume people coming in didn't have any background in the material yet, for instance. Dunno. Thinking about people who are not natural "students", and whose focus in time & energy is on another part of their lives at the same time they're using this hypothetical study program.

Dayo: oh god, I have no idea. I was just questioning the demand for a program "as good as" top schools, for the purposes that have been given here.

brb recalibrating my check engine light (Laurel), Saturday, 3 September 2011 15:10 (3 years ago) Permalink

and I'm still talking under the influence of that atlantic article, but is there any evidence that the market for middle class jobs - i.e. jobs that pay $40-60k (or even 80!) and would thus be a reasonable goal for someone who enters a middle of the pack 4 year college or online equivalent - is growing? what use is training someone for a middle class job or for trade if those jobs aren't there in the first place?

the overall performance of the american economy is not something that our universities can control, but I agree, all signs point downward and think this is one of the factors that's going to take down the system.

iatee, Saturday, 3 September 2011 15:12 (3 years ago) Permalink

given how incurious our population is

This feels like a...strange thing to say. Or at least a pre-judged thing? I mean, how did our population GET so "incurious"? Americans aren't stupider than other (what other?) populations, I'm p sure.

brb recalibrating my check engine light (Laurel), Saturday, 3 September 2011 15:13 (3 years ago) Permalink

it's kind of a chicken and the egg question - why push 18 year olds into debt for college when so far all signs point to the economy not being able to support them when they graduate

dayo, Saturday, 3 September 2011 15:13 (3 years ago) Permalink

This feels like a...strange thing to say. Or at least a pre-judged thing? I mean, how did our population GET so "incurious"? Americans aren't stupider than other (what other?) populations, I'm p sure.

― brb recalibrating my check engine light (Laurel), Saturday, September 3, 2011 11:13 AM (8 seconds ago) Bookmark

I am always wary about talking about things like these, but for one thing, education isn't as highly valued by our culture (or certain segments of our population) as it is by other cultures

dayo, Saturday, 3 September 2011 15:14 (3 years ago) Permalink

also cards on the table i am a liberal weenie type who would like everyone to go to college for the sake of going to college, what is the point of living in the richest and most technologically complex society on the planet if were not at least making the effort to give everyone the tools to talk about good books

i feel like this is kinda projection or s.thing, like if were talking techno-utopias then a system that got 'most ppl' into and out of school earlier wld be the ideal, with college being open to the ppl who 'really want it'

Lamp, Saturday, 3 September 2011 15:17 (3 years ago) Permalink

I am always wary about talking about things like these, but for one thing, education isn't as highly valued by our culture (or certain segments of our population) as it is by other cultures

― dayo, Saturday, September 3, 2011 8:14 AM (3 minutes ago)

Teachers especially. There's still some sort of respect (at least in the form of paycheck, often) for professors, and a ramping-up of respect as age-level of students progresses, but damned if I don't believe that teaching kindergarten (well) in failing district is a far sight harder than teaching 10th grade history in a wealthy independent. But we esteem the high school history teacher as an intellect, and passively denigrate the kindergarten teacher as basically a kid technician

remy bean, Saturday, 3 September 2011 15:21 (3 years ago) Permalink

I am always kind of shocked to see how little respect teachers get in this culture until you reach the professor level - "those who can't do, teach" etc.

dayo, Saturday, 3 September 2011 15:22 (3 years ago) Permalink

hmm i guess i dont have particularly well-formed opinions on this subject im just kind of suspicious of a lot of the discourse that springs up when we talk about reform or whatever; im wary of the idea that "college just isnt for everyone" in the current state of things, i.e. huge wealth gap, increasingly stratified society and so forth. just seems like another way to reify those distinctions

max, Saturday, 3 September 2011 15:24 (3 years ago) Permalink

that was xp to lamp

max, Saturday, 3 September 2011 15:24 (3 years ago) Permalink

and the underlying assumption is that anybody could teach, given the opportunity and necessity. It's the only job in the world that everybody thinks they know how to do! Nearly everybody has had 13 years exposure to hundreds of different teachers, many of them terribly poor in quality - and because so much of the job is invisible/off-stage, especially for good teachers, it even looks like an easy job. (xp to dy)

remy bean, Saturday, 3 September 2011 15:26 (3 years ago) Permalink

for someone who ends up w/ serious debt from a for-profit university, "college" has only served to increase the wealth gap

and you can also argue that various institutions are key players in the huge wealth gap + increasingly stratified society

xp

iatee, Saturday, 3 September 2011 15:27 (3 years ago) Permalink

well yeah

max, Saturday, 3 September 2011 15:30 (3 years ago) Permalink

yeah remy my only experience w/ how other cultures perceive teachers is in china, but there if you tell someone you're a teacher it's an automatic +1 - respect for teachers is baked into the culture, there are loads of teacher training colleges (even if the methods they learn are questionable), a lot of students want to become teachers. I'm sure there are other cultures out there w/ similar views

like if there was more inherent respect for teaching as a profession, it would siphon off some of the brain drain that's going into finance, it would make it easier for teachers to get better compensation, more benefits, make it a much more attractive profession as a whole

dayo, Saturday, 3 September 2011 15:32 (3 years ago) Permalink

i struggle with this q, will universal (or graeatly expanded) university opportunities lead to better wealth distribution? or will it simply debase the signaling power of a degree and leave a lot of ppl with debt and few technical skills (4 those who dont pursue professional degrees)? i don't know, i guess i'm a fence sitter, i don't know what to tell a student other than "go, it's the best option" but i also want 2 live in a world where not going to college is not a death sentence for your career prospects.

ima.tumblr.com (@imsothin) (m bison), Saturday, 3 September 2011 15:34 (3 years ago) Permalink

and a lot of it has to do, v. simply, w/ shitty pay. highly qualified young people (male, especially) don't want to enter into a low-regarded profession in which finding employment is difficult, where the salary is capped at 70,000 after 20 years of work.

remy bean, Saturday, 3 September 2011 15:35 (3 years ago) Permalink

i guess i should stress that the ideal "lets all go to college and discuss great books" world is unachievable so long as college costs so darn much

max, Saturday, 3 September 2011 15:42 (3 years ago) Permalink

like, in comparison to other careers which require (or at least privilege) post-secondary ed, teaching is lower on the totem pole, but in a lot of communities, it might be one of the better paying jobs there. i worry more about plumbing and electricians and sewage and waste management and etc being considered "beneath" middle class kids (thus flooding the available college spots with those who can afford it).

ima.tumblr.com (@imsothin) (m bison), Saturday, 3 September 2011 15:43 (3 years ago) Permalink

yeah max i think its hard, i mean i dont want a return to pre-50s college system either but increased access hasnt seemed to do all that much for income equality either. obv its a completely subjective argument but my ~feeling~ is that if we had some kind of system wherein ppl could leave school @ 15/16 for apprenticeships/job-training/a career the # of ppl who wld want to pursue post-secondary education wld drastically decrease, and that many people who currently spend 4 years and X dollars on a communications/business degree wld be a lot happier?

i mean its sort of a pointless opinion to have @ the moment since no1 really needs an apprenticeship to learn how to work at wal-mart but in an america that had actual jobs i guess its worth thinking abt ways to 'de-credentialize' some careers?

Lamp, Saturday, 3 September 2011 15:47 (3 years ago) Permalink

^^^
i guess my line of thinking right now is basically pining for "true" meritocracy (obv a term fraught w complication). in that, if you are an excellent student, u get the k-12 education you deserve to help prepare u for the rigors of university ed regardless of your background. if u fuck around in lib arts type classes bc it doesnt interest u, there are other things u can do and support yrself/family as an adult. from my own exp, i see middle (the upperish side of that) class kids go to college whether or not it interests them bc they feel they "have to", frequently getting the degree that still serves as a signal of employability. and i see poorer kids who were the top students in their respective high schools getting to college without the skills to be successful (not just academic, but for lack of a better descriptor "professional" skills, parents didnt come from privlege, dont know how interview for professional positions or the jargon of higher ed or whatever), dropping out more frequently (w debt).

ima.tumblr.com (@imsothin) (m bison), Saturday, 3 September 2011 16:10 (3 years ago) Permalink

if we had some kind of system wherein ppl could leave school @ 15/16 for apprenticeships/job-training/a career the # of ppl who wld want to pursue post-secondary education wld drastically decrease, and that many people who currently spend 4 years and X dollars on a communications/business degree wld be a lot happier?

right but what worries me is that those numbers would decrease largely out of the pool of lower-income, underrepresented students. if i thought that people from all different backgrounds would forgo a liberal arts education in favor of apprenticeships i would be more in favor of it, but the way things "work" right now i think you end up stacking the deck.

if i am king i probably nationalize higher education and make it free for everyone who wants to go

max, Saturday, 3 September 2011 16:14 (3 years ago) Permalink

my other idea is to make all kids between the ages of 13 and 20 go work on farms year-round without tv, the internet, or video games

max, Saturday, 3 September 2011 16:15 (3 years ago) Permalink

^^^feelin this

D-40, Saturday, 3 September 2011 16:20 (3 years ago) Permalink

they get to use facebook though right

D-40, Saturday, 3 September 2011 16:21 (3 years ago) Permalink

I think a lot of this goes back to 'in an america that had actual jobs' - I mean when times were good this country could get away w/ a lot of things that were pretty inefficient (health care system, 4 years of college to 'find yourself', *cough* urban sprawl etc.) that I don't think will be possible in the longer term

xp to lamp

iatee, Saturday, 3 September 2011 16:25 (3 years ago) Permalink

like if there was more inherent respect for teaching as a profession, it would siphon off some of the brain drain that's going into finance, it would make it easier for teachers to get better compensation, more benefits, make it a much more attractive profession as a whole

more respect and compensation would be nice for teachers, but do you know what would also be awesome? hiring people who would be fantastic teachers but who don't want to go through the horrible, utter bullshit that is the process of getting certified.

jizz inside of your nose (the table is the table), Saturday, 3 September 2011 16:30 (3 years ago) Permalink

if you live in Texas, you can get quickie certified (not necessarily a good policy tho)

ima.tumblr.com (@imsothin) (m bison), Saturday, 3 September 2011 16:40 (3 years ago) Permalink

then i'd have to live in texas.

jizz inside of your nose (the table is the table), Saturday, 3 September 2011 16:41 (3 years ago) Permalink

:-)

jizz inside of your nose (the table is the table), Saturday, 3 September 2011 16:41 (3 years ago) Permalink

this is s.thing i think abt all the time but:

- i think 'college' in the spend four years studying s.thing that interests you sense, whether its books or european history or chemical engineering, has tremendous innate value both personally and for society and so im sympathetic to the 'everyone should go' argument

- but i think even assuming it was free and ignoring opportunity cost not everyone is going to be able to realize that value. and maybe even most people, this is hard to quantify tho. however as it stands college also has tremendous value in the 'i need this to get a job' sense and so young ppl dont really have the option to make a choice based on their own utility, so they spend a bunch of time and money on a shitty business degree or feel forced to take courses they not prepared for/cant get much out of

- so it makes sense imo that there should be more viable career paths that dont require a four year degree or even mb any degree, like realistically what skills do you need to work in corporate hr that you couldnt get from working a low level admin job for three/four years instead? outside of a few technical/engineering jobs most white collar jobs could just as easily be structured in the same way blue collar fields are now imo

Lamp, Saturday, 3 September 2011 16:43 (3 years ago) Permalink

The system for creating and certifying public school teachers is partly sensible and partly grotesque. The primary assumption seems to be that the people entering the system in the hope of becoming teachers are a dog's breakfast of skills and aptitudes, who must be reduced to a smooth paste and extruded in the shape of teachers.

Aimless, Saturday, 3 September 2011 16:50 (3 years ago) Permalink

like realistically what skills do you need to work in corporate hr that you couldnt get from working a low level admin job for three/four years instead? outside of a few technical/engineering jobs most white collar jobs could just as easily be structured in the same way blue collar fields are now imo

totally

iatee, Saturday, 3 September 2011 16:54 (3 years ago) Permalink

Revive apprenticeships, but without as much indentured servitude involved.

Aimless, Saturday, 3 September 2011 17:13 (3 years ago) Permalink

ok but those white collar jobs aren't gonna be around long I think---we'll automate or outsource them soon, next ten years top

maybe the most dispiriting thing about teaching where I do is how unambitious my students tend to be---those kids are gonna be fucked because they just wanna drift & then slide into some boring but ok paying office job, & the economy's just not gonna support that anymore

Euler, Saturday, 3 September 2011 17:25 (3 years ago) Permalink

well i mean im p resigned to using my doctorate to sell five thousand dollar shoes to the wives of third world oligarchs or w/e jobs are still around in ten years, max and are both kinda arguing 'ideal worlds' here

Lamp, Saturday, 3 September 2011 17:33 (3 years ago) Permalink

wait so how can I get a job as a third world oligarch

Do not go gentle into that good frogbs (silby), Saturday, 3 September 2011 17:42 (3 years ago) Permalink

do I just move to Kyrgyzstan and start bribing public officials or what

Do not go gentle into that good frogbs (silby), Saturday, 3 September 2011 17:43 (3 years ago) Permalink

step one guns

ima.tumblr.com (@imsothin) (m bison), Saturday, 3 September 2011 17:52 (3 years ago) Permalink

step two tanks

Aimless, Saturday, 3 September 2011 17:53 (3 years ago) Permalink

i think you just need to find a public co. in an industry w/ a high barrier-to-entry and a large captive market and then through a combination of blackmail, bribes, and empty promises purchase the company once it becomes privatized and then voila you own a co. that controls 80% of latin america's telephony and ur the richest person in the world

Lamp, Saturday, 3 September 2011 17:53 (3 years ago) Permalink

slim shady

ima.tumblr.com (@imsothin) (m bison), Saturday, 3 September 2011 18:01 (3 years ago) Permalink

I think about this stuff all the time not only b/c of my job but because I have kids, & because of my egalitarian leanings I'm somewhat ambiguous about it but I think my kids are gonna do super well in this brave new jobless world b/c they've lived in other countries, speak multiple languages fluently, are super smart especially at math, & have a sense of how "wide" the world is: so that if what's needed is to open a business in say Malaysia they're just gonna do it---this is that whole "new global elite" thing that I posted about sometimes, & it's pretty much gonna rule to be those people, so I dunno

whereas for many of my students, they're hoping to find office-y work in Dallas & they have no real special skills to offer because they majored in psych or soc or heaven forbid business & they're not particularly worldly or quick on their feet & the world's just gonna eat them alive...but they're happy for now. I dunno, I worry about this "generation limbo", not for my family but because I work with these people & for better or for worse I ~care~

Euler, Saturday, 3 September 2011 18:13 (3 years ago) Permalink

so that if what's needed is to open a business in say Malaysia they're just gonna do it

Uhh nothing from kindergarden on up teaches the on-the-fly skills you'd need to make yr way in the world in another country, without significant (family) assets behind you. My experience w education is exactly the opposite -- they rly don't want to have to deal with kids who have traits that wd suit them for quick thinking/acting or high levels of adventure/excitement/flexibility.

brb recalibrating my check engine light (Laurel), Saturday, 3 September 2011 18:16 (3 years ago) Permalink

I mean if you want yr children to be world adventurers, take them out of school, move to Mozambique, and make them be friends with street kids who'll teach them how to pick pockets and lie convincingly.

brb recalibrating my check engine light (Laurel), Saturday, 3 September 2011 18:17 (3 years ago) Permalink

nah but my kids have already made their way in another country, is all I mean

Euler, Saturday, 3 September 2011 18:17 (3 years ago) Permalink

ok but those white collar jobs aren't gonna be around long I think---we'll automate or outsource them soon, next ten years top

who's the techno-utopian now?! (I pretty much agree.)

I think it's important to look at our college education system in the bigger economic context - the future of white collar labor and economic inequality has more to do w/ bigger political and economic processes than w/ what any given college can do.

maybe the most dispiriting thing about teaching where I do is how unambitious my students tend to be---those kids are gonna be fucked because they just wanna drift & then slide into some boring but ok paying office job, & the economy's just not gonna support that anymore

but it's hard to blame 18 y/o kids for not being able to predict these things - 'college' worked for americans for 50 years, and it still 'works' for almost every traditionally successful person you'll meet.

but I don't get how you can be so hard on these kids and still ultimately defend the bigger system - I mean atm your job is teaching these kids, which in turn depends on them wanting to purchase the college degree signal. how many 18 y/os in nebraska (I am just gonna pretend you live there) want to pay 7k (the bargain price, these days...) a year to learn about philosophy?

iatee, Saturday, 3 September 2011 18:18 (3 years ago) Permalink

yeah it seems sort of unfair to call the students you teach "unambitious," Euler; it seems more like they're inheriting a really uncertain future that likely adults in their lives have not fully understood/been explicit with them about. i can understand head-in-the-sand-i'll-just-ratchet-down-my-expectations responses to that even if they're not the best response.

horseshoe, Saturday, 3 September 2011 18:19 (3 years ago) Permalink

xp what iatee said

horseshoe, Saturday, 3 September 2011 18:19 (3 years ago) Permalink

I'm an unambitious college student, but at least I'm an electrical engineering major and not a philosophy major.

Battlestar Gracián (crüt), Saturday, 3 September 2011 18:20 (3 years ago) Permalink

I have lots of extremely smart multilingual friends who are good at math and the only ones who are abroad these days are teaching english, not starting the malaysian facebook

iatee, Saturday, 3 September 2011 18:21 (3 years ago) Permalink

re. how many kids want to pay that much to learn say philo; a fair number! we get them jobs because they learn how to write well & how to reason well; other degrees besides math & maybe bio I'm inclined to agree about.

I don't think it's "our university system" that's failing these kids, I think it's our culture, our parenting, our cultivation, our attention, that's failing these kids

Euler, Saturday, 3 September 2011 18:22 (3 years ago) Permalink

there is more student loan debt in america than credit card debt

that's a failed system

iatee, Saturday, 3 September 2011 18:24 (3 years ago) Permalink

I know how to fix it
more credit cards for everyone

ima.tumblr.com (@imsothin) (m bison), Saturday, 3 September 2011 18:26 (3 years ago) Permalink

BOOM

ima.tumblr.com (@imsothin) (m bison), Saturday, 3 September 2011 18:26 (3 years ago) Permalink

& another thing: going to college at least used to be a decision for the risk-averce: high costs, high opportunity costs, with pretty much a guarantee of steady if not spectacular repayment of that risk. so we tend not to get the "entrepreneurial" types nor do we train people to be entrepreneurial. we train the future servants of the corporate state. so horseshoe's right: it's a lot to expect college students to have figured out that this has changed, that the costs aren't gonna buy off life's risks. but we need to do that, somehow.

Euler, Saturday, 3 September 2011 18:27 (3 years ago) Permalink

crut, i predict a future for you in designing and making thousand dollar analog synthesizers for the hipster offspring of Lamp's shoe-buyers

sarahel, Saturday, 3 September 2011 18:28 (3 years ago) Permalink

there is a part of me that def identifies w/ euler's POV, insofar as i think cultivating risk-taking as a skillset would potentially bear fruit in brave nu world of lame economy

ima.tumblr.com (@imsothin) (m bison), Saturday, 3 September 2011 18:31 (3 years ago) Permalink

and the underlying assumption is that anybody could teach, given the opportunity and necessity. It's the only job in the world that everybody thinks they know how to do!

increasingly folks think the same thing about lawyers. why do you think legalzoom and handling cases as a pro se litigant are so popular?!?

Murdered plants communicate with a bowl of shrimps in another room! (Eisbaer), Saturday, 3 September 2011 18:31 (3 years ago) Permalink

like, and that can be as simple as encouraging/mandating multilinguilism and labor mobility around the world, i don't know

xp

ima.tumblr.com (@imsothin) (m bison), Saturday, 3 September 2011 18:32 (3 years ago) Permalink

cultivating risk-taking as a skillset would potentially bear fruit in brave nu world of lame economy

In order for people to be motivated to take risks, apart from having thrill-seeking brain chemistry or something, they need to start from a place where the outcome of a failure to act is WORSE than the outcome of the failure of the endeavor. P much risk-taking starts with things being really shitty. So I guess we're on the right path?

brb recalibrating my check engine light (Laurel), Saturday, 3 September 2011 18:35 (3 years ago) Permalink

some start-up $$$ isn't bad, either.

Murdered plants communicate with a bowl of shrimps in another room! (Eisbaer), Saturday, 3 September 2011 18:36 (3 years ago) Permalink

universal health care makes starting a business a lot less risky

iatee, Saturday, 3 September 2011 18:37 (3 years ago) Permalink

In order for people to be motivated to take risks, apart from having thrill-seeking brain chemistry or something, they need to start from a place where the outcome of a failure to act is WORSE than the outcome of the failure of the endeavor. P much risk-taking starts with things being really shitty. So I guess we're on the right path?

― brb recalibrating my check engine light (Laurel), Saturday, September 3, 2011 1:35 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark

i think so!

ima.tumblr.com (@imsothin) (m bison), Saturday, 3 September 2011 18:38 (3 years ago) Permalink

Primary text for study: Simplicius Simplicissimus by Grimmelshausen.

Aimless, Saturday, 3 September 2011 18:38 (3 years ago) Permalink

what types of businesses are we talking about, here? Etsy storefronts and things like Elfster?

sarahel, Saturday, 3 September 2011 18:39 (3 years ago) Permalink

Buying children and selling the parts.

Aimless, Saturday, 3 September 2011 18:41 (3 years ago) Permalink

I think about this stuff all the time not only b/c of my job but because I have kids, & because of my egalitarian leanings I'm somewhat ambiguous about it but I think my kids are gonna do super well in this brave new jobless world b/c they've lived in other countries, speak multiple languages fluently, are super smart especially at math, & have a sense of how "wide" the world is: so that if what's needed is to open a business in say Malaysia they're just gonna do it---this is that whole "new global elite" thing that I posted about sometimes, & it's pretty much gonna rule to be those people, so I dunno

lol i wonder if my parents sd the same thing and ive spent the last couple of years living below the poverty line

i do think that the academy cant really do much abt the relationship of labor to capital in a ~globalized economy~, nor really can how you raise yr kids (other than to be wise and realistic abt the world i guess), im genuinely ambivalent abt the ability of real wages to increase in the next ten years period idk

Lamp, Saturday, 3 September 2011 18:44 (3 years ago) Permalink

universal health care would be a huge boon toward encouraging the kind of risk-taking I'm envisioning

Euler, Saturday, 3 September 2011 18:45 (3 years ago) Permalink

Buying children and selling the parts.

Oh yeah that's the other thing that happens to street kids whose parents don't have the resources to secure their children's futures.

brb recalibrating my check engine light (Laurel), Saturday, 3 September 2011 18:45 (3 years ago) Permalink

re: what kind of businesses/ventures: honest answer, i don't know...maybe more nanotech engineers taking root in developing countries, expats starting tex-mex restaurants in mumbai, more nonprofits starting schools for girls oprah style, dollar and a dream type shit

ima.tumblr.com (@imsothin) (m bison), Saturday, 3 September 2011 18:47 (3 years ago) Permalink

my secret dream is to start a good burrito place in paris

iatee, Saturday, 3 September 2011 18:49 (3 years ago) Permalink

nobody steal it

iatee, Saturday, 3 September 2011 18:49 (3 years ago) Permalink

nobody fucks with my masala dosa with refritos and guacamole

ima.tumblr.com (@imsothin) (m bison), Saturday, 3 September 2011 18:51 (3 years ago) Permalink

the guy that article's about seems like an amazing dude

D-40, Saturday, 3 September 2011 19:00 (3 years ago) Permalink

unrelated to the subject at hand but still, wkiw

D-40, Saturday, 3 September 2011 19:00 (3 years ago) Permalink

if he had any free time

D-40, Saturday, 3 September 2011 19:00 (3 years ago) Permalink

maybe this is heedless point scoring against the eisbars and morbs of the political threads but i dont see how you can read about how the obama admin finally held for-profit colleges accountable in that article & say that even if you were in a battleground state you wouldnt vote for him in the coming election -- / continue in other thread

D-40, Saturday, 3 September 2011 19:17 (3 years ago) Permalink

iatee, thankin u for that link. Just posted it to my brother, who has two degrees in film production and is looking at getting a teaching cert instead.

brb recalibrating my check engine light (Laurel), Saturday, 3 September 2011 19:18 (3 years ago) Permalink

The chief regulatory threat to the for-profits coalesced in the form of something called the “gainful employment rule.” The federal Higher Education Act states that, in order to be eligible for federal aid money, career-oriented schools must “prepare students for gainful employment in a recognized occupation.” And so the Education Department set out to define “gainful employment” as a ratio of student loan debt to income. If students weren’t earning enough in the workforce to service their debts after leaving a school, the idea went, then the school should not be eligible for aid. The very premise of the rule shook the foundations of the for-profits’ business model. Their stocks dropped to four-year lows.

D-40, Saturday, 3 September 2011 19:18 (3 years ago) Permalink

ya, felt a lot better about obama's ed policy after reading that, altho i still think arne duncan sux

ima.tumblr.com (@imsothin) (m bison), Saturday, 3 September 2011 19:19 (3 years ago) Permalink

Those who do graduate from Western Governors credit their mentors with being the single biggest factor in their success. Playing a role with no real analog in the wider world of higher education, WGU’s mentors operate from home offices and kitchen tables scattered across the country. (But unlike the armies of adjuncts and graduate students who do most of the teaching at both for-profit and traditional schools, mentors work full-time with benefits.)

iatee, Saturday, 3 September 2011 19:37 (3 years ago) Permalink

not a big fan of arne duncan either

horseshoe, Saturday, 3 September 2011 20:13 (3 years ago) Permalink

that's an awesome school! seems like more of a 'supplement' to the traditional 4 year college rather than a replacement, so far

dayo, Saturday, 3 September 2011 20:53 (3 years ago) Permalink

a supplement when we're looking at 'the american college system', but on an individual level it would be a replacement for some people, and ultimately, some schools. harvard will exist in some form 20 years from now - the best 'signal' money can buy, a gdp-sized endowment, rich people are doin alright etc. etc.

but can public and private schools outside of the 'admissions tournament' 10% survive if a significant % of 18 y/os decide that WGU (etc.) is a better investment? esp w/ a political culture that seems intent on reducing both public subsidies to universities and research.

iatee, Saturday, 3 September 2011 21:17 (3 years ago) Permalink

right - but as the article mentioned, the worst performing of WGU enrollments were precisely the 18 y/o fresh high school grad demographic. of course there could be many explanations for that - if it could draw on a larger pool of students than it does now, picking up some of those whom are now going to mediocre 4 year colleges, that might change things.

otoh the question with online learning is where does the motivation come from - it's easy to see where it does for the person profiled in the article and others in his age range, it's a little harder to conjure up for younger people. but hey, like we've been suggesting in this thread - maybe 2-3 years of independence after high school will be enough to motivate twenty somethings to go back to school and get a degree?

also the assessment/competency based system will lend itself better to certain subjects and not others - not sure how some of the subjects traditionally taught in the liberal arts would be, for example.

not trying to shit on the school! just thinking some things through. but some cynics would say that all they've done so far is create a cheaper, online (and more efficient) version of night school.

dayo, Saturday, 3 September 2011 21:32 (3 years ago) Permalink

(also, don't mean to denigrate night school or adult education in any way! just trying to place it in context of this discussion.)

dayo, Saturday, 3 September 2011 21:41 (3 years ago) Permalink

one big problem with college is that up until people turn like 21-22 they are all huge morons no matter what theyre doing

max, Saturday, 3 September 2011 22:07 (3 years ago) Permalink

p much true

ima.tumblr.com (@imsothin) (m bison), Saturday, 3 September 2011 22:15 (3 years ago) Permalink

hence my big "work on a farm" plan

max, Saturday, 3 September 2011 22:17 (3 years ago) Permalink

also solves: obesity, bullying, having to see teenagers out on the street

max, Saturday, 3 September 2011 22:17 (3 years ago) Permalink

aww but teenagers can be so amusingly earnest about their weird little lives sometimes!

Do not go gentle into that good frogbs (silby), Saturday, 3 September 2011 22:23 (3 years ago) Permalink

you can be one of the supervising farmers

max, Saturday, 3 September 2011 22:24 (3 years ago) Permalink

it'd have to be a web app farm

Do not go gentle into that good frogbs (silby), Saturday, 3 September 2011 22:25 (3 years ago) Permalink

you could call it max's adventure orchestra (mao for short)

dayo, Saturday, 3 September 2011 22:25 (3 years ago) Permalink

Uhh nothing from kindergarden on up teaches the on-the-fly skills you'd need to make yr way in the world in another country, without significant (family) assets behind you. My experience w education is exactly the opposite -- they rly don't want to have to deal with kids who have traits that wd suit them for quick thinking/acting or high levels of adventure/excitement/flexibility.

― brb recalibrating my check engine light (Laurel), Saturday, 3 September 2011 19:16 (4 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

I mean if you want yr children to be world adventurers, take them out of school, move to Mozambique, and make them be friends with street kids who'll teach them how to pick pockets and lie convincingly.

― brb recalibrating my check engine light (Laurel), Saturday, 3 September 2011 19:17 (4 hours ago)

haw

very good

diouf est le papa du foot galsen merde lè haters (nakhchivan), Saturday, 3 September 2011 23:16 (3 years ago) Permalink

i suppose it proves tom friedman isn't a sociopath because he has never had a great idea like that

diouf est le papa du foot galsen merde lè haters (nakhchivan), Saturday, 3 September 2011 23:19 (3 years ago) Permalink

otoh the question with online learning is where does the motivation come from - it's easy to see where it does for the person profiled in the article and others in his age range, it's a little harder to conjure up for younger people. but hey, like we've been suggesting in this thread - maybe 2-3 years of independence after high school will be enough to motivate twenty somethings to go back to school and get a degree?

I mean the core motivation comes from the same place as their motivation to go to a normal 4 year school - better job prospects. kids also like the frills that come w/ traditional college - campus, sports, social life, whatever. but the frills are not why people are going into 6 figure debt.

iatee, Saturday, 3 September 2011 23:37 (3 years ago) Permalink

and if colleges start competing on price, frills are the first thing to go

iatee, Saturday, 3 September 2011 23:40 (3 years ago) Permalink

I'm not sure every freshman enters college with "better job prospects" as his number one motivator

dayo, Saturday, 3 September 2011 23:41 (3 years ago) Permalink

I'm not sure every freshman enters college with "better job prospects" as his number one motivator

― dayo, Saturday, September 3, 2011 6:41 PM (29 seconds ago) Bookmark

i think its more 'my parents said this is what you should do'

D-40, Saturday, 3 September 2011 23:41 (3 years ago) Permalink

'bone some hotties'

Lamp, Saturday, 3 September 2011 23:44 (3 years ago) Permalink

"COLLLEEEEEGGEEEEEE" *kegstand*

dayo, Saturday, 3 September 2011 23:44 (3 years ago) Permalink

I'm not sure every freshman enters college with "better job prospects" as his number one motivator

maybe not but if 'better job prospects' didn't exist, the whole concept falls apart pretty fast. whereas people do go to schools without football teams. and without cute girls. people go to commuter schools w/ no social life.

iatee, Saturday, 3 September 2011 23:46 (3 years ago) Permalink

sure, but lots of people take out loans to go to those third and fourth tier 'idyllic' 'pastoral' colleges just to enjoy the 'college experience' that's as much a media and cultural phenomenon as it is an economic one

dayo, Saturday, 3 September 2011 23:49 (3 years ago) Permalink

sometimes i think itd be nice to time travel back to like the early 60s and go to college cuz like the classes were smaller and probably more fun and expectations were lower and everyone dressed so nicely and you could take six months off ofter you finished to kick it in france on the cheap and no1 wld give a fuck cuz you wouldnt even have a resume, youd just work in the office of whomever yr dad played golf w/

then i realize that no1 wld be friends w/ me and i couldnt text and sleeping w/ cute dudes wld be a cumbersome trial and i realize how much better it is now 2day

Lamp, Saturday, 3 September 2011 23:51 (3 years ago) Permalink

that's a good point, but I think the media/cultural phenomenon is gonna shift a bit when we have a national student debt crisis

iatee, Saturday, 3 September 2011 23:51 (3 years ago) Permalink

everyone would be friends with you, you would be from 50 years in the future and would be the smartest human being alive

iatee, Saturday, 3 September 2011 23:51 (3 years ago) Permalink

bring an iphone

iatee, Saturday, 3 September 2011 23:51 (3 years ago) Permalink

i would be burned as a witch

Lamp, Saturday, 3 September 2011 23:53 (3 years ago) Permalink

hopefully a national student debt crisis would lead to legislation that would allow student loans to be forgiven

dayo, Saturday, 3 September 2011 23:54 (3 years ago) Permalink

also legislation leading to free iphones for everybody

dayo, Saturday, 3 September 2011 23:54 (3 years ago) Permalink

40 iphones and a mule

dayo, Saturday, 3 September 2011 23:54 (3 years ago) Permalink

when i do i want to be buried w/ 1000 ipads like an ancient chinese emperor

Lamp, Saturday, 3 September 2011 23:55 (3 years ago) Permalink

just showing up in heaven giving out ipads 2 every1... hey jesus want to play angry birds?? well NOW YOU CAN

Lamp, Saturday, 3 September 2011 23:55 (3 years ago) Permalink

but maybe heaven is like an ivy league campus in the 50s... no jews or gay ppl

Lamp, Saturday, 3 September 2011 23:56 (3 years ago) Permalink

no women either

dayo, Saturday, 3 September 2011 23:57 (3 years ago) Permalink

hopefully a national student debt crisis would lead to legislation that would allow student loans to be forgiven

I don't think this would happen without significant reforms that clamped down on the current situation easy money paying for colleges that get more expensive ever year / 4 years of kegstands in a 4th tier rural paradise might not be as easy for a lower-middle class person

but then again we paid for the financial crisis w/o regulating away the biggest moral hazards, so who knows

iatee, Saturday, 3 September 2011 23:58 (3 years ago) Permalink

situation of

iatee, Saturday, 3 September 2011 23:58 (3 years ago) Permalink

if we do forgive student loans I'm gonna be pretty pissed I didn't go to grad school

iatee, Sunday, 4 September 2011 00:02 (3 years ago) Permalink

this board is now just a bunch of rich college kids

― chaki

buzza, Sunday, 4 September 2011 04:52 (3 years ago) Permalink

maybe this is heedless point scoring against the eisbars and morbs of the political threads but i dont see how you can read about how the obama admin finally held for-profit colleges accountable in that article & say that even if you were in a battleground state you wouldnt vote for him in the coming election -- / continue in other thread

so, b/c a politician arguably does one good thing then i should just drop to my knees and worship him even if he's done a zillion not-so-good things?!? by that measure, the only politician in my lifetime who hasn't passed that test would be Dubya.

what a pathetic, weak argument for Obama that is ... even for you.

Murdered plants communicate with a bowl of shrimps in another room! (Eisbaer), Sunday, 4 September 2011 15:56 (3 years ago) Permalink

seriously, dude, yer nothing but a cheap Chinese-made knockoff of Ethan ... without the wit, intelligence or class.

Murdered plants communicate with a bowl of shrimps in another room! (Eisbaer), Sunday, 4 September 2011 15:57 (3 years ago) Permalink

had no idea deej was chinese

iatee, Sunday, 4 September 2011 16:05 (3 years ago) Permalink

no but he was made there

ima.tumblr.com (@imsothin) (m bison), Sunday, 4 September 2011 16:05 (3 years ago) Permalink

tremdendous work from the computational linguistics dept of the chinese secret services

diouf est le papa du foot galsen merde lè haters (nakhchivan), Sunday, 4 September 2011 16:09 (3 years ago) Permalink

nakhchivan I want to read one of your books pls post link to relevant amazon links kthxbye

wolves lacan, Sunday, 4 September 2011 16:15 (3 years ago) Permalink

damn

wolves lacan, Sunday, 4 September 2011 16:17 (3 years ago) Permalink

I don't wanna get aggro and shit about it but I too don't get "I don't see how you can read about this good thing an elected official did and say you wouldn't vote for him" - there is literally not one elected official in the history of the country who doesn't deserve your vote if that's how you make the calculations.

pathos of the unwarranted encore (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Sunday, 4 September 2011 16:23 (3 years ago) Permalink

none such xxp

diouf est le papa du foot galsen merde lè haters (nakhchivan), Sunday, 4 September 2011 16:28 (3 years ago) Permalink

nakh fess the fuck up

even blue cows get the girls (darraghmac), Sunday, 4 September 2011 16:38 (3 years ago) Permalink

bide your time. nakhchivan will have a book someday, but not quite yet. unquestionably he has that aroma about him, but he's not quite ripened enough.

Aimless, Sunday, 4 September 2011 17:15 (3 years ago) Permalink

I don't wanna get aggro and shit about it but I too don't get "I don't see how you can read about this good thing an elected official did and say you wouldn't vote for him" - there is literally not one elected official in the history of the country who doesn't deserve your vote if that's how you make the calculations.

― pathos of the unwarranted encore (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Sunday, September 4, 2011 11:23 AM (2 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i think there's a pretty distinctive pattern of obama having done more good things than his predecessor that, being the crassly cynical person i am, adds up to a better life for lots of ppl than if i choose not to vote bcuz im so angry at the crass cynical nature of politicians

but we've had this debate before

dont know what eisbar's problem is but while i like morbs & aerosmith as posters i find his posts in the political threads to be the most annoying & kneejerk, w/out any real humanity behind them. youre the dreadlocked dude on my college campus convinced that gore & bush are the same person

D-40, Sunday, 4 September 2011 18:57 (3 years ago) Permalink

like, eisbar is consistently the worst on those threads, a bunch of generic rage & frankly youre the one w/ the ethan obsession

D-40, Sunday, 4 September 2011 18:58 (3 years ago) Permalink

Black men

D-40, Sunday, 4 September 2011 18:59 (3 years ago) Permalink

http://www.economist.com/node/21528226

iatee, Sunday, 4 September 2011 23:45 (3 years ago) Permalink

generation lmbo

markers, Sunday, 4 September 2011 23:47 (3 years ago) Permalink

A recent study from Georgetown University’s Centre on Education and the Workforce argues that “obtaining a post-secondary credential is almost always worth it.”

ehhh complicated

other than that I think that's a pretty good take on the big picture in 9 paragraphs

iatee, Sunday, 4 September 2011 23:58 (3 years ago) Permalink

quality xp

dayo, Monday, 5 September 2011 00:03 (3 years ago) Permalink

yeah I wish I had used that title for this thread g1

iatee, Monday, 5 September 2011 00:05 (3 years ago) Permalink

It seems like our global society really doesn't know what to do with the efficiencies created by automation. Or rather, efficiency is captured by the ownership class as profit rather than used to give humans a lot more free time I guess.

Do not go gentle into that good frogbs (silby), Monday, 5 September 2011 00:10 (3 years ago) Permalink

if the ownership class would bother to pay their damn taxes then it would all be okay

dayo, Monday, 5 September 2011 00:11 (3 years ago) Permalink

How long before we have an activist youth movement that starts demanding massively increased taxation on capital? I would almost tolerate activism if it was about that. Instead of like wikileaks or the plight of the Palestinians or whatever.

Do not go gentle into that good frogbs (silby), Monday, 5 September 2011 00:13 (3 years ago) Permalink

yeah that's what it really comes down to

the idea that massive amounts of people maybe just should be paid not to work - and that that might not be a bad thing for the economy - is still an incredibly hard sell

xp

iatee, Monday, 5 September 2011 00:14 (3 years ago) Permalink

so how long has the 'hollowing out' of the middle class been a recognized threat? I don't regularly follow krugman

dayo, Monday, 5 September 2011 00:34 (3 years ago) Permalink

yeah that idea won't ever fly in the USA---I know the econ & I'm morally for reduced inequality but paying people to not work hurts me in the gut & it'd take a lot more than econ to convince me; & for most Americans this is exactly the problem with the welfare state: people getting what they don't deserve, haven't earned (well, that + racism of course)

Euler, Monday, 5 September 2011 00:35 (3 years ago) Permalink

it's been happening steadily since the 70s and esp 80s, but 'recognized threat' depended on who you asked. it's always been an issue, but most people were fine with the 'rising tide lifts all boats' narrative, as it appeared that, despite rising income inequality, the poor and middle class were still making progress. in retrospect a lot of the nominal income gains even back in the good periods were illusory.

iatee, Monday, 5 September 2011 00:47 (3 years ago) Permalink

euler I think your take is probably pretty representative, but attitudes change. when our permanently unemployed class turn into a more visible, perhaps dangerous social problem, people might begrudgingly moderate their views.

iatee, Monday, 5 September 2011 00:51 (3 years ago) Permalink

or they'll just throw them all in jail

D-40, Monday, 5 September 2011 00:52 (3 years ago) Permalink

oh wait they're already doing that

D-40, Monday, 5 September 2011 00:52 (3 years ago) Permalink

wasn't even implying 'the permanently unemployed are gonna go on crime sprees' - one of the interesting things about the great recession is that crime hasn't shifted much overall. I more meant 'more people having friends and family who have been unemployed for 3 years, not out of choice, more people interacting w/ office workers thrown into poverty, etc.'

iatee, Monday, 5 September 2011 00:59 (3 years ago) Permalink

people getting what they don't deserve, haven't earned

yeah ppl can only have money they didnt deserve or earn if the 'market decides' to give it 2 them, not communists govts

Lamp, Monday, 5 September 2011 01:05 (3 years ago) Permalink

yeah I mean *I'm* persuadable on this but I kinda goes against our national image of ourselves as a place where hard work + gumption makes you the person you are. I guess the consumer revolution already upended that, though. So I dunno.

would rather see a renewed WPA though

xp but that's money they deserve, axiomatically (I mean, to those who have that pt of view)

Euler, Monday, 5 September 2011 01:07 (3 years ago) Permalink

sort of? i mean the idea that the market for say, corporate executive salaries is truly efficient is p lol but w/e

sarcasm was more just bcuz youre right, even the most parasitic of rentier capitalists will go 2 the way arguing that they produce some kind of social value (lol making markets more efficient) just because the idea of true 'leisure' class also seems deeply unamerican

realistically i think a simplified, more progressive and better enforced tax regime is the 'fairest' way of readjusting things otoh wheres max, i think he has a workable idea for sending ppl to go work on farms or s.thing

Lamp, Monday, 5 September 2011 01:16 (3 years ago) Permalink

renewed WPA could still be great in the short-term, but in the long-term you'd rather people were working just for the sake of working? you'd rather a man digs a ditch than a machine?

one of the related issues is that rich people are working longer hours than ever.

if we want people to work just because being a 'worker' is good for your moral character or whatever, we can have a system of shared part-time labor. we simply may not need 95% of working americans to provide 40h week of labor, and having 10 people work 20h is probably better for society than 5 unemployed people and 5 people at 40h. it's never that simple, though, and I think it would be harder to organize from above than just increasing welfare, which is actually fairly straightforward. (unemployment insurance without an end date.)

iatee, Monday, 5 September 2011 01:18 (3 years ago) Permalink

but I kinda goes against our national image of ourselves as a place where hard work + gumption makes you the person you are.

hah this hasn't been true for a long time, but yeah it's built into our national self-image

dayo, Monday, 5 September 2011 01:22 (3 years ago) Permalink

keynes thought by 2030 we'd be working 15h weeks and mostly just trying to figure out what we'd do with our free time

(he did not envision ilx polls)

iatee, Monday, 5 September 2011 01:23 (3 years ago) Permalink

I'm not sure what I think re paying people to not work but I think I'm committed to the "dignity of labor" both as in "don't make work so shitty that it offends against human dignity" (that's an injunction to the ruling class) & as in "work is a basic human good, it gives meaning & purpose & direction to human life" but re the latter I have a pretty broad understanding of work e.g. building ridic Minecraft worlds might count, so I dunno.

Euler, Monday, 5 September 2011 01:49 (3 years ago) Permalink

virtual WPA hmm

remy bean, Monday, 5 September 2011 01:51 (3 years ago) Permalink

I think 'paying people not to work' is not the right phrasing - 'paying people subsistence wages when the demand for more labor simply doesn't exist'. this isn't some crazy futurist idea either, already happens in countries w/ considerably less wealth than america.

iatee, Monday, 5 September 2011 01:54 (3 years ago) Permalink

yeah I think the right phrase might be "guaranteed minimum income", there might be some econ/poli sci term of art that gets used I dunno.

'In Praise of Idleness', Bertrand Russell takes on the supposed nobility of work

Do not go gentle into that good frogbs (silby), Monday, 5 September 2011 01:57 (3 years ago) Permalink

though as someone said upthread unlimited unemployment insurance is a lot easier to implement than some sort of universal free money program

Do not go gentle into that good frogbs (silby), Monday, 5 September 2011 01:59 (3 years ago) Permalink

15hr working week, another 15hrs spent studying to keep colleges open

even blue cows get the girls (darraghmac), Monday, 5 September 2011 02:00 (3 years ago) Permalink

Money quote:

First of all: what is work? Work is of two kinds: first, altering the position of matter at or near the earth's surface relatively to other such matter; second, telling other people to do so. The first kind is unpleasant and ill paid; the second is pleasant and highly paid. The second kind is capable of indefinite extension: there are not only those who give orders, but those who give advice as to what orders should be given. Usually two opposite kinds of advice are given simultaneously by two organized bodies of men; this is called politics.

Do not go gentle into that good frogbs (silby), Monday, 5 September 2011 02:02 (3 years ago) Permalink

The morality of work is the morality of slaves, and the modern world has no need of slavery.

Do not go gentle into that good frogbs (silby), Monday, 5 September 2011 02:04 (3 years ago) Permalink

ok so I'm obvs just posting the good-sounding rhetorical bits here but still

Do not go gentle into that good frogbs (silby), Monday, 5 September 2011 02:05 (3 years ago) Permalink

yeah I know the Russell essay, but I don't trust him on this: he only knew idleness when depressed, & he was an aristocrat.

Euler, Monday, 5 September 2011 02:06 (3 years ago) Permalink

he was an aristocrat and therefore…his opinion is invalid or…?

Do not go gentle into that good frogbs (silby), Monday, 5 September 2011 02:10 (3 years ago) Permalink

well there's also something to say about idleness in the white collar 40h week

iatee, Monday, 5 September 2011 02:10 (3 years ago) Permalink

see: ilx.com

iatee, Monday, 5 September 2011 02:11 (3 years ago) Permalink

xp do you mean since he personally never put in 12-hour days at the sadness cannery in Manchester or something he couldn't know how rewarding that really was?

Do not go gentle into that good frogbs (silby), Monday, 5 September 2011 02:12 (3 years ago) Permalink

iatee ilx.com isn't loading for me ???

Do not go gentle into that good frogbs (silby), Monday, 5 September 2011 02:12 (3 years ago) Permalink

haha ilxor.com

iatee, Monday, 5 September 2011 02:13 (3 years ago) Permalink

I like how we have this overarching narrative about the american love of labor but at the same time we also believe that a significant % of americans are looking for an excuse to live the rest of their lives under the poverty line as welfare dependents

iatee, Monday, 5 September 2011 03:01 (3 years ago) Permalink

yup. then again i believe that the 'overarching narrative' is most often associated with one particular ethnicity of americans, while the 'significant %' are associated with other ethnicities. damn cynicism..

pearsonic, Monday, 5 September 2011 03:03 (3 years ago) Permalink

pearsockic

buzza, Monday, 5 September 2011 03:12 (3 years ago) Permalink

that there's really only two posters on ilx, velko and a sockmaster supreme

― harshbuzz to my chilt-on (zvookster), Wednesday, March 24, 2010 2:12 PM

markers, Monday, 5 September 2011 03:16 (3 years ago) Permalink

zvookster would know about that : )

buzza, Monday, 5 September 2011 03:17 (3 years ago) Permalink

pearsonic isn't a sock

remy bean, Monday, 5 September 2011 03:19 (3 years ago) Permalink

you guys all laughed at my farm camp idea and now youve all come back around

max, Monday, 5 September 2011 12:20 (3 years ago) Permalink

marx thought that once we overcame capitalism wed all go hunting a lot

max, Monday, 5 September 2011 12:21 (3 years ago) Permalink

dude was really into hunting, go figure

max, Monday, 5 September 2011 12:21 (3 years ago) Permalink

i'm not laughing at the idea - i actually think that a civilian corp (a year of military or non-military service, optionally) as prerequisite for no-strings-attached two years of college funding is a semi-brilliant idea.

remy bean, Monday, 5 September 2011 12:35 (3 years ago) Permalink

nah silby re. Russell all I was saying was that as an aristocrat he knew a different kind of idleness from the laborer: it wasn't simply a way to rest his feet & turn his mind off, as laborers do, but rather a way to let his mind free.

Euler, Monday, 5 September 2011 15:44 (3 years ago) Permalink

even poor people have the internet now

iatee, Monday, 5 September 2011 15:46 (3 years ago) Permalink

facebook: the great equalizer

iatee, Monday, 5 September 2011 15:47 (3 years ago) Permalink

farmville: the great unequalizer

Euler, Monday, 5 September 2011 15:50 (3 years ago) Permalink

haha touche

iatee, Monday, 5 September 2011 15:51 (3 years ago) Permalink

allow me to raise the discourse: shit sux.

Nhex, Monday, 5 September 2011 17:36 (3 years ago) Permalink

I'm liking this Bertrand Russell essay, though

Nhex, Monday, 5 September 2011 17:39 (3 years ago) Permalink

just user emails nothing super enlightening

but I like the boomers/gen x/gen y narrative, we haven't talked much about that

iatee, Monday, 5 September 2011 21:43 (3 years ago) Permalink

I can linkspam my own thread right

http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2011/09/05/rick-perrys-plan-10000-for-a-ba/perrys-college-plan-its-just-a-start

mostly just college profs defending the status quo

iatee, Monday, 5 September 2011 22:46 (3 years ago) Permalink

$10,000 for a bachelor's degree? Let's start by firing all the administration!

Euler, Monday, 5 September 2011 22:59 (3 years ago) Permalink

otm

iatee, Monday, 5 September 2011 22:59 (3 years ago) Permalink

haha I mean but you should see the admin levels in your av research uni, & most of it is aimed at nothing more than making more money---it's like the platonic ideal of Weber

Euler, Tuesday, 6 September 2011 00:45 (3 years ago) Permalink

http://socrates.berkeley.edu/~schwrtz/Part_12.html


http://universityprobe.org/2011/03/new-data-on-management-growth-at-uc/

this crazy old physics prof has written a lot of good stuff over the years w/r/t the UC system financing and costs:
http://socrates.berkeley.edu/~schwrtz/

iatee, Tuesday, 6 September 2011 00:59 (3 years ago) Permalink

esp: http://socrates.berkeley.edu/~schwrtz/UndergradCost.html

iatee, Tuesday, 6 September 2011 01:01 (3 years ago) Permalink

admin cash is pretty sweet too

Euler, Tuesday, 6 September 2011 01:14 (3 years ago) Permalink

As an administrator at my research university, the disparity between administrators who reward themselves with golden parachutes into the millions and the rest of us reeling under salary freezes and the governor's forcing us to contribute three percent of our salaries towards retirement is -- well.

Anakin Ska Walker (AKA Skarth Vader) (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 6 September 2011 01:20 (3 years ago) Permalink

dangling modifier but you get it

Anakin Ska Walker (AKA Skarth Vader) (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 6 September 2011 01:20 (3 years ago) Permalink

that said, would your job even exist 30 years ago?

iatee, Tuesday, 6 September 2011 01:36 (3 years ago) Permalink

sure -- I'm the adviser to the student newspaper, website, and radio station.

Anakin Ska Walker (AKA Skarth Vader) (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 6 September 2011 01:37 (3 years ago) Permalink

I'm thinking of your assistant dean of undergraduate science research & the like.

Euler, Tuesday, 6 September 2011 01:46 (3 years ago) Permalink

were there really full-time people working for the student newspaper and radio station in 1980? (I genuinely have no idea, but surely there are some people who went to college in 1980 here?)

iatee, Tuesday, 6 September 2011 01:57 (3 years ago) Permalink

If there are good jobs, won't people train to fill them? The vocational part of a college education should be easy, but there is a lot about working that cannot be taught. I think a college education is more about quality of life, quality of existence, of which working is eventually a significant part, for most people.

youn, Tuesday, 6 September 2011 02:26 (3 years ago) Permalink

I tend to take Dewey's line about the value of a liberal-arts-education in creating & nourishing a populace able to handle democracy

― Euler, Friday, 2 September 2011 19:17 (1 week ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

where is the best place to begin reading about this?

caek, Monday, 12 September 2011 10:13 (3 years ago) Permalink

liberal arts school

Battlestar Gracián (crüt), Monday, 12 September 2011 10:16 (3 years ago) Permalink

hiyo!

caek, Monday, 12 September 2011 10:25 (3 years ago) Permalink

Dewey's "My Pedagogic Creed", from 1897, isn't a bad place to start. I have it in my copy of The Essential Dewey vol. 1 (subtitled Pragmatism, Education, Democracy), published by Indiana University Press in 1998.

Euler, Monday, 12 September 2011 14:20 (3 years ago) Permalink

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/13/education/13loans.html

dayo, Tuesday, 13 September 2011 10:37 (3 years ago) Permalink

Many borrowers, even those who are unemployed or earning little, can avoid default by participating in an income-based repayment program that began in 2009 but is not as widely used as might be expected. Under the program, borrowers who pay 15 percent of their discretionary income for 25 years — 10 years if they are in public service — can have the rest of their federal student loan debt forgiven; in 2014, that will go down to paying 10 percent of discretionary income for 20 years.

“In the age of income-based repayment, there is no reason for a student to default, since even a payment of zero dollars is acceptable payment, if you have zero discretionary income,” Ms. Cochrane said. “But as of April of this year, only about 350,000 borrowers have entered income-based payment, a small subset of the eligible population. Students need to understand the options, colleges need to share the information, and the department needs to make it as easy as possible for students to enroll.”

one of my friends is going to grad school - 100k for a non-profit type degree at a 'good school' - only because the gov't started this program. he considered it considerably less risky. I dunno if that's a good system in the long-term? also it's only available for public loans, so "there is no reason for a student to default" is misleading.

iatee, Tuesday, 13 September 2011 23:19 (3 years ago) Permalink

One night she bumped into a friend, who asked her to join a punk rock band, Titus Andronicus, as a guitarist. Once, that might have been considered professional suicide.

― hardcore oatmeal (Jordan), Friday, September 2, 2011 4:57 PM (1 week ago) Bookmark

+1

BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Tuesday, 13 September 2011 23:20 (3 years ago) Permalink

http://www.pdnonline.com/pdn/news/The-Art-Institutes--3531.shtml

Earlier this month, the US Department of Justice sued Pittsburgh-based Education Management Corporation, which is 41 percent owned by investment bank Goldman Sachs. The government has charged the company with fraudulently collecting $11 billion dollars in state and federal student financial aid between July of 2003 to June of 2011. EDMC allegedly collected $2.2 billion of that money in 2010 alone. That amounted to almost 90 percent of the company's 2010 revenues.

ilx user 'silby' (silby), Tuesday, 20 September 2011 17:00 (2 years ago) Permalink

for-profit colleges are scum

ilx user 'silby' (silby), Tuesday, 20 September 2011 17:01 (2 years ago) Permalink

Boger wanted a career in "live event and concert photography," and contacted the school after seeing its ads on TV, she says. "Ideally I wanted to work for Rolling Stone or Spin. They made it sound like if I went [to AI], they would help me find a job. They said 90 percent of their graduates are employed within one year in their field. They said, 'We have contacts at all the major music magazines.'

"I think [the recruiter] was telling me what I wanted to hear, because when I got out, they didn't have anything," Boger says. An AI career counselor gave her just two contacts at small publications in Austin. Boger was unable to reach one because that contact had moved to another job, "and the other said to me, 'You don't have the qualifications you need,'" Boger recounts.

ilx user 'silby' (silby), Tuesday, 20 September 2011 17:02 (2 years ago) Permalink

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/21/education/21admissions.html?_r=1

In the survey, 10 percent of the admissions directors at four-year colleges — and almost 20 percent at private liberal-arts schools — said that the full-pay students they were admitting, on average, had lower grades and test scores than other admitted applicants.

But they are not the only ones with an edge: the admissions officers said they admitted minority students, athletes, veterans, children of alumni, international students and, for the sake of gender balance, men, with lesser credentials, too.

Whiney G. Blutfarten (dayo), Wednesday, 21 September 2011 10:09 (2 years ago) Permalink

important to note that 'colleges with a real admissions competition beyond a hs degree' are a minority to begin with. which is to say that those % are going to be even higher at ''good'' colleges.

iatee, Wednesday, 21 September 2011 13:05 (2 years ago) Permalink

also we've just passed the peak of a demographic bump (kids of the boomers.) that's gonna hit both the marginal for-profit and non-profit schools eventually. 'peak college'

iatee, Wednesday, 21 September 2011 13:08 (2 years ago) Permalink


iatee, Wednesday, 21 September 2011 14:05 (2 years ago) Permalink

My parents were very much at the edge of boomerdom (born '52/'53ish) and had kids relatively later for their generation, I think? I think the kids of boomers are more in the 30-45 range now. I think the 15-30 year olds right now are mostly kids of early Gen Xers?

so i had sex with a piñata (mh), Wednesday, 21 September 2011 14:44 (2 years ago) Permalink

Well, obviously a lot of overlap there since some gen x definitions try to include people born up through 1980 or so.

so i had sex with a piñata (mh), Wednesday, 21 September 2011 14:45 (2 years ago) Permalink

nah kids of the boomers are that green bar in the top chart and the two surrounding it

iatee, Wednesday, 21 September 2011 14:49 (2 years ago) Permalink

You're saying kids of boomers are 15-30?

so i had sex with a piñata (mh), Wednesday, 21 September 2011 14:50 (2 years ago) Permalink

I guess the wider-ranged baby boomer def is people born from 1943-1960, so I guess that makes some sense.

so i had sex with a piñata (mh), Wednesday, 21 September 2011 14:52 (2 years ago) Permalink

I kind of buy into this concept, with the majority of kids of that age actually being the scions of this segment: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation_Jones

so i had sex with a piñata (mh), Wednesday, 21 September 2011 14:53 (2 years ago) Permalink

yup

gen x kids are the blue and purple bars. wouldn't make sense that gen x's offspring outnumbered gen x by a huge margin. xp

iatee, Wednesday, 21 September 2011 14:53 (2 years ago) Permalink

but yeah the drop from the current 20-24 group to 10-14 is substantial and will def be felt by (the ever growing number of) marginal institutions.

iatee, Wednesday, 21 September 2011 15:00 (2 years ago) Permalink

P. sure that hikkikomori refers just to the shut-in phenomenon and not to the concept of underemployed young adults more generally.

ilx user 'silby' (silby), Thursday, 22 September 2011 18:34 (2 years ago) Permalink

I think the idea is that there's something of correlation between that kind of behavior and a dire economy

iatee, Thursday, 22 September 2011 18:43 (2 years ago) Permalink

Yeah but my strident animu stan side is just rankling against the minor inaccuracy

ilx user 'silby' (silby), Thursday, 22 September 2011 18:55 (2 years ago) Permalink

I used to always say that once we had invented virtual sex the world would shut down but it looks like naruto was enough

Whiney G. Blutfarten (dayo), Thursday, 22 September 2011 19:56 (2 years ago) Permalink

but without reading the article, just let me know if a comparison to japan was made at all

Whiney G. Blutfarten (dayo), Thursday, 22 September 2011 19:57 (2 years ago) Permalink

yes

ilx user 'silby' (silby), Thursday, 22 September 2011 19:58 (2 years ago) Permalink

I guess we can make the argument that at least it's easier for us to stay at home since we all live in suburbs

Whiney G. Blutfarten (dayo), Thursday, 22 September 2011 20:00 (2 years ago) Permalink

At many colleges and universities, the survey found, whom you know does matter. More than a quarter of the admissions directors said they had felt pressure from senior-level administrators to admit certain applicants, and almost a quarter got pressure from trustees or development officers.

“If external parties are trying to influence admissions decisions, that’s a concern that strikes at the legitimacy of the whole process,” Mr. Hawkins said. “We certainly have standards, but there needs to be awareness that when the economy starts to crumble, the standards may start to go out the window.”

I glossed over this part when I first read the article but this is pretty alarming too! there are so many incentives to admitting legacies from rich families - they pay full tuition and you put your hooks into their parents when alumni giving season rolls around.

Whiney G. Blutfarten (dayo), Thursday, 22 September 2011 20:03 (2 years ago) Permalink

At some point I became privy to the not-particularly-secret information that my school definitely admitted a fairly sizable proportion of full-pay applicants. It's a small place where most of the operating budget comes from tuition and fees (vs. endowment draw), a historically high attrition rate between the first and second years, and something like an overall 45% discount rate on the sticker price of tuition. So basically it's a situation where, to some extent, underqualified full-pay freshmen subsidize everybody else with their tuition, then drop out/burn out/get kicked out. This has been my interpretation of the situation; it might not really be quite that substantial of an effect, but I believe that it's there.

ilx user 'silby' (silby), Thursday, 22 September 2011 20:10 (2 years ago) Permalink

gen x kids are the blue and purple bars. wouldn't make sense that gen x's offspring outnumbered gen x by a huge margin. xp

― iatee, Wednesday, September 21, 2011 7:53 AM (Yesterday)

considering a number of gen x ladies didn't feel like breeding until their mid-30s, there are also gen x offspring in that 0-4 bracket, along w/the boomer grandkids.

sarahel, Friday, 23 September 2011 01:23 (2 years ago) Permalink

yeah that would explain the size of it I guess

iatee, Friday, 23 September 2011 01:24 (2 years ago) Permalink

so, sometime in the past couple of years 20somethings stopped really clapping/whooing for bands? Like even at the end of a show. Pos just an indierockpunk montreal thing? It is weird. and, I believe, wrong.

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Friday, 23 September 2011 07:26 (2 years ago) Permalink

(I have no stats abt their level of education and debt tho)

obliquity of the ecliptic (rrrobyn), Friday, 23 September 2011 07:28 (2 years ago) Permalink

rrrobyn i have very little empirical evidence to back you up but what you say rings sadly true :(

TracerHandVEVO (Tracer Hand), Friday, 23 September 2011 09:35 (2 years ago) Permalink

I clap for bands, unless they suck

I AM THE CROOT (crüt), Friday, 23 September 2011 10:07 (2 years ago) Permalink

depends on the size/style of the show in my experience, but I've seen the lights come on and everyone kind of wanders around at smaller shows

if you are talking about the arcade fire show you just went to, I have no idea wtf their problem is

so i had sex with a piñata (mh), Friday, 23 September 2011 14:28 (2 years ago) Permalink

I am from somewhere where it is customary to clap and whoo after the last song until the band comes out to at least acknowledge and wave, if there is no encore.

so i had sex with a piñata (mh), Friday, 23 September 2011 14:29 (2 years ago) Permalink

clap for bands, say yeah

Disraeli Geirs (Hurting 2), Friday, 30 September 2011 03:52 (2 years ago) Permalink

good article, lotta butthurt in the comments

max, Friday, 30 September 2011 12:05 (2 years ago) Permalink

it's kinda amazing how much damage one shitty magazine has done

but people really do like ranking things and one-upsmanship...it's also a good example of how 'competition' can lead to an increasingly dysfunctional market

iatee, Friday, 30 September 2011 13:38 (2 years ago) Permalink

more reasons to sentence mort zuckerman to 1m years in prison

max, Friday, 30 September 2011 13:39 (2 years ago) Permalink

Heh, I cheerfully attended the lowest-ranked college that I got into.

ilx user 'silby' (silby), Friday, 30 September 2011 13:58 (2 years ago) Permalink

agreed

thank you BIG HOOS, you brilliant god-man (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Wednesday, 5 October 2011 13:21 (2 years ago) Permalink

http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2011/10/11/occupy-wall-street-harvard/

the financial industry brain drain

The number of Harvard graduates heading to the financial sector remains disheartening. The Crimson surveys the post-graduation plans of Harvard’ senior class annually, yielding responses from 35 percent to 55 percent of the senior class. In 2007, the survey reported that a staggering 47 percent of workforce-bound seniors took jobs in finance or consulting. In 2008, the survey number dipped to 39 percent. In 2009, it fell to 20 percent, with 11.5 percent in finance. That’s progress, but it still means that one in 10 workforce-bound seniors are headed straight for soul-sucking corporate servitude.

interesting to see how the numbers correspond with the crash. I guess one 'good' thing about the recession is that less smart people are heading into finance.

2001: a based godyssey (dayo), Thursday, 13 October 2011 01:35 (2 years ago) Permalink

Of course, avoiding the Siren call of Morgan Stanley isn’t as easy as it sounds. The Office of Career Services has been cramming the corporate sector down Crimson throats for years. While Harvard has authority over OCS, we’re not going to see a ban on investment banks, a la the ROTC ban, anytime soon. The University knows where its bread is buttered.

otm - if you want to become a doctor, lawyer, or i-banker, OCS at an elite school has got you covered. if you want to be anything else, well, good luck, you're an ivy grad, I'm sure you'll be able to forge your own path.

2001: a based godyssey (dayo), Thursday, 13 October 2011 01:37 (2 years ago) Permalink

I dunno I think the recession prob didn't discourage ivy-types, their other options seemed even more bleak than usual

ows might have discouraged a few people, who knows

iatee, Thursday, 13 October 2011 01:39 (2 years ago) Permalink

probably not but hedge funds probably just didn't offer as many jobs

2001: a based godyssey (dayo), Thursday, 13 October 2011 01:39 (2 years ago) Permalink

http://thechoice.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/10/19/degree-debate/

dayo, Thursday, 20 October 2011 12:33 (2 years ago) Permalink

Doesn't sound like I would enjoy talking to any of those guys tbh

medium rear (silby), Thursday, 20 October 2011 13:22 (2 years ago) Permalink

did anyone read the new york magazine cover article? there are some good parts tho it does read like a blog post.

iatee, Thursday, 20 October 2011 23:33 (2 years ago) Permalink

All the world's a blog post.

WE DO NOT HAVE "SECRET" "MEETINGS." I DO NOT HAVE A SECOND (Laurel), Friday, 21 October 2011 00:08 (2 years ago) Permalink

that "are too many people earning college degrees" debate is on the wrong subject, tho the answer is undeniably yes considering the macro picture, for-profit schools etc.

the real debate should be "will we be able to make college affordable / 'a good investment' for the majority of Americans? what are the long-term consequences if that answer is 'no'?"

iatee, Friday, 21 October 2011 00:21 (2 years ago) Permalink

Are there really a lot of careers that pay a livable wage that don't require a college degree or at least some post-secondary education or training? I feel like those jobs are decreasing but the jobs that do exist on the lower end of the spectrum aren't able to adequately compensate for the cost of education.

avant-garde heterosexuals (mh), Friday, 21 October 2011 00:26 (2 years ago) Permalink

I mean there is a 'bubble' but the prob is entirely in the financial structure. I don't think there's an inherent problem w/ having half of the 18-22 y/o's off studying random shit instead of entering the job market right away. there are lots of social and economic gains from that. the bubble's in the way we pay for it.

if there were no free high school and a similar cost structure we'd prob be having discussions about whether high school was 'worth it'

iatee, Friday, 21 October 2011 00:28 (2 years ago) Permalink

Right now, most high schools might not be "worth it" which is why college is necessitated

avant-garde heterosexuals (mh), Friday, 21 October 2011 00:33 (2 years ago) Permalink

heh well that depends on if you view education as an end in itself or as being vocational in some way.

the basic problem is, as I understand it, middle-class jobs are being hollowed out. there are low-level jobs, like manual labor and service work, and then there are high level jobs which can't be offshored, like doctors and lawyers, which are gonna require more than a college ed. that leaves a whole bunch of people with bachelor degrees competing for a shrinking pool of jobs.

dayo, Friday, 21 October 2011 00:55 (2 years ago) Permalink

that leaves a whole bunch of people with bachelor degrees competing for a shrinking pool of jobs who want to live in coastal cities

Unemployment Rates for Metropolitan Areas
Monthly Rankings
Not Seasonally Adjusted
Aug. 2011

1 Bismarck, ND Metropolitan Statistical Area 3.0
2 Lincoln, NE Metropolitan Statistical Area 3.6
3 Fargo, ND-MN Metropolitan Statistical Area 3.9

163 New York-Northern New Jersey-Long Island, NY-NJ-PA Metropolitan Statistical Area 8.3
253 San Francisco-Oakland-Fremont, CA Metropolitan Statistical Area 9.7
338 Los Angeles-Long Beach-Santa Ana, CA Metropolitan Statistical Area 11.8

Euler, Friday, 21 October 2011 01:27 (2 years ago) Permalink

a. there are countless industries that exist in ny/sf/la and do not exist in bismarck or fargo
b. whether or not they want to, an overwhelming majority of people with college degrees actually do not live in ny/sf/la, even most 20-somethings
c. btw 'people should just to north dakota and work on oil rigs' would not actually work, they are tiny cities and the unemployment rate vs. total amount of job openings is misleading in sparsely populated areas.

iatee, Friday, 21 October 2011 03:09 (2 years ago) Permalink

a. countless industries that evidently aren't hiring!
b. I can't believe that the people on Bones are a couple now! though I guess that's appropriate given the name
c. they wouldn't be so tiny if all you coastal elites would move there! one of my students who is from ND (n.b. I don't live there) says that her friend got a $20 a hour job making food at Taco Bueno because the supply of labor is so low there.

Euler, Friday, 21 October 2011 03:16 (2 years ago) Permalink

'work in fast food in north dakota' is prob a good idea for some people, like people who don't have ties to where they live + live in an economically depressed area. like if you live in a shitty part of Nevada and just want a job (that seems to be why most people move there), why not?

but again there are limits to small resource extraction economies in isolated parts of the country and if a few thousand people show up that employment gap disappears.

iatee, Friday, 21 October 2011 03:36 (2 years ago) Permalink

euler i think yr being p naive abt the economics of migration and both the short and long term costs of moving to ND to lay oil pipeline or w/e. like you could probably get a p good paper out of 'the costs of information asymmetry to new migrants'

just too lazy/tired to do the right thing and google a credible study but part of the problem with internal migration is that things like $20/hr fast food jobs only exist bcuz of a temp imbalance and the 'real costs' of working those jobs is often much higher than equivalent jobs elsewhere because the lack of a local support structure and the high cost of things like housing and other primary services blah blah blah

i mean the last time i looked migration patterns do generally reflect the stats yr citing but the reason many ppl dont just move to where there are jobs is less about 'wanting to live somewhere cool' than both ppls 'rational expectations' abt long-term employment prospects and the percieved/real costs of transition?

koyannisquatsi hop (Lamp), Friday, 21 October 2011 06:25 (2 years ago) Permalink

I did the math, for north dakota's (I just went w/ 70% of the population as the work force) 3.5% unemployment rate to turn into a 5% unemployment rate, 6790 unemployed people need to show up in the state. obv it's not that simple and there are economic gains from people showing up (fewer gains if they're all broke, unskilled, unemployed tho) but overall there's really not that much opportunity for geographic arbitrage to begin with - this is before factoring in what lamp said, that even that existence is not clear cut.

information asymmetry - absolutely - most people are not familiar with the local economy of every single metro area in the country, the general awareness is 'the american economy is extremely shitty' - beyond that they're prob familiar w/ the large metro areas near them. I think if "north dakota, economic wonderland!" type things were on TV on a regular basis you'd prob see some people attempt to take advantage of it. there are tons of examples of large scale internal migration for economic reasons (arizona, texas, florida) but in all those cases the information was 'out there'.

here is the nymag article http://nymag.com/news/features/my-generation-2011-10/ which prob will just give euler more ammo for his 'your generation is unemployed because they all moved to brooklyn' hypothesis

iatee, Friday, 21 October 2011 16:42 (2 years ago) Permalink

yeah I'm sure I'm naive here though at least in my part of the country the last several years (the great plains) there's widespread awareness of the cities regionally that have work; so the informational asymmetry likely reflect regional epistemic diffferences.

yeah iatee capitalism makes living in some places like NYC a luxury good. even if it cost less to live there b/c we figured out how to control real estate prices better, there's only so many jobs there, & apparently the competition for them is cutthroat.

Euler, Friday, 21 October 2011 16:52 (2 years ago) Permalink

capitalism didn't make living in a dense city w/ public transit a luxury good, gov't planning did

iatee, Friday, 21 October 2011 16:59 (2 years ago) Permalink

that new york magazine article is horrendous

max, Friday, 21 October 2011 17:01 (2 years ago) Permalink

never speak of it

max, Friday, 21 October 2011 17:01 (2 years ago) Permalink

I think the financial industry had something to do with that, iatee. xp

Euler, Friday, 21 October 2011 17:02 (2 years ago) Permalink

the financial industry has nothing to do w/ the zoning policy for greater nyc or our lack of investment in transit for the region over the last 70 years. (well, not directly.)

iatee, Friday, 21 October 2011 17:08 (2 years ago) Permalink

yeah the ny mag article had a few paragraphs I liked but I wish someone better had written that article...there's no way it could survive the intro

iatee, Friday, 21 October 2011 17:09 (2 years ago) Permalink

the zoning policy for greater NYC isn't the only reason why living in NYC is a luxury good, & I'm dubious that it's the main reason. Housing prices went super high not simply because zoning was bad but because people made such big cash that they could bid the prices of housing & other normal goods of life---good schools, e.g.---way up, out of non-luxurious living levels.

Euler, Friday, 21 October 2011 17:10 (2 years ago) Permalink

you are are skeptical that 'supply' has an fairly important effect on the price of a good

iatee, Friday, 21 October 2011 17:11 (2 years ago) Permalink

er 'a fairly important'

iatee, Friday, 21 October 2011 17:14 (2 years ago) Permalink

not skeptical, but also not ignoring the massive influx of cash that NYC got due to financial deregulation.

Euler, Friday, 21 October 2011 17:14 (2 years ago) Permalink

even if you know that there are jobs in north dakota i think were underrating the real costs of relocation. there was a good article about economic migration in canada (where depressed atlantic regions lose large #s of young workers to the west/praries) that talked about the fact that these workers ended up paying more for things like housing and transportation, in addition to the fact that migration drives up the costs of these things for everyone.

i mean there are all sorts of cultural/personal reasons why say a recent college grad w/ no real economic ties doesnt just move to nebraska like i dont know how comfortable id be living somewhere im afraid to touch my bf in public but you do have to consider that ppl arent making decision entirely in a vacuum, i guess?

bongs of a dread redeemer (Lamp), Friday, 21 October 2011 17:15 (2 years ago) Permalink

One note that I'm not hearing here is that if there were more OTHER places with the same urban advantages of dense housing and pretty good public transit and stuff, that more other cities would be more similar to NYC and therefore desirable to some of the people who currently live in/want to live in NYC?

WE DO NOT HAVE "SECRET" "MEETINGS." I DO NOT HAVE A SECOND (Laurel), Friday, 21 October 2011 17:16 (2 years ago) Permalink

Like right now NY has the punk mystique or the art scene or East Village mystique or the luxury shopping thing or w/e, you can take it or leave it, but there's a narrative to it, right? Maybe if we hadn't killed off all our other major cities, more of them would have compelling stories, too?

WE DO NOT HAVE "SECRET" "MEETINGS." I DO NOT HAVE A SECOND (Laurel), Friday, 21 October 2011 17:18 (2 years ago) Permalink

I don't think it's a non-issue cause the top of the market does affect everyone - nevertheless there have been enormous wealth disparities in nyc since forever - during some eras there was enough construction in urban housing and investment in transit that there were no shortage of opportunities for an urban middle class (jews in the bronx etc.)

xp

iatee, Friday, 21 October 2011 17:20 (2 years ago) Permalink

And also over history maybe some/more industries would have relocated to those places, so maybe book publishing would be centered in...Detroit or something, instead of being like 95% in NY (outside of university presses) and I'd be able to live somewhere else.

WE DO NOT HAVE "SECRET" "MEETINGS." I DO NOT HAVE A SECOND (Laurel), Friday, 21 October 2011 17:20 (2 years ago) Permalink

I'm kind of talking out of my ass here but isn't a large part of why NYC survived and thrived down to the money generated by the success of Wall Street? Like, basically all of the capital was there and that was what drove all of the other industries that sprang up there and provided either a nurturing environment or a backdrop to react against for the subcultures in the city?

do not wake the dragon (DJP), Friday, 21 October 2011 17:23 (2 years ago) Permalink

Lamp don't you live in Toronto? that's still the only place I've ever seen homosexual couples being physically intimate in public; & I lived in the Bay Area (albeit the peninsula) for a couple of years. & this was just walking down Bloor Street, which I gather isn't some countercultural center like the Castro.

this stuff is hard & the fact that I came out here for work & that my father immigrated to the USA from Latin America for work (& moved us around the country looking for work when I was a kid) colors how I look at these things. I don't really "get" being attached to a place & I tend to think most places are pretty interchangeable provided that there's work: after that it's just a luxury of finding a place you like (a luxury I've really yet to have, given my choice of careers, research academia).

Euler, Friday, 21 October 2011 17:28 (2 years ago) Permalink

I'm kind of talking out of my ass here but isn't a large part of why NYC survived and thrived down to the money generated by the success of Wall Street? Like, basically all of the capital was there and that was what drove all of the other industries that sprang up there and provided either a nurturing environment or a backdrop to react against for the subcultures in the city?

― do not wake the dragon (DJP), Friday, October 21, 2011 1:23 PM (8 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

the erie canal is really the reason that new york city is new york city, but the finance industry has a lot to do with it too. but as iatee points out, the finance industry isnt the reason that rent is really high.

max, Friday, 21 October 2011 17:34 (2 years ago) Permalink

rich foreigners buying/renting pied-a-terres seems like more of a reason for high rents than wall street bros

max, Friday, 21 October 2011 17:34 (2 years ago) Permalink

lol swedish haute bourgeois film students

i think the study of why certain cities become lodestones for capital/culture/ppl is really interesting & complex - trade is a big part of it & certainly 'shipping' is probably the most impt industry in nyc's development but its also obv a much bigger argument than just that. i do kinda agree that 'living in nyc' is its own kind of luxury in a way

bongs of a dread redeemer (Lamp), Friday, 21 October 2011 17:52 (2 years ago) Permalink

I'm kind of talking out of my ass here but isn't a large part of why NYC survived and thrived down to the money generated by the success of Wall Street? Like, basically all of the capital was there and that was what drove all of the other industries that sprang up there and provided either a nurturing environment or a backdrop to react against for the subcultures in the city?

I think this is a very complicated question to answer because you really have to go into counterfactual zone but:

pros of wall street
a. lotsa local tax $
b. enormous service economy dependent on rich people and their absurdist ny status signaling
c. strong real estate market and the 'good things' that come w/ it

cons
a. expansive local govt dependent on a taxbase that might not always exist
b. 'strong real estate market' also = 'rent sucks up most peoples' income
c. office space rent in manhattan = hurts basically every other industry, start-ups, etc.

iatee, Friday, 21 October 2011 18:06 (2 years ago) Permalink

I tend to think most places are pretty interchangeable provided that there's work: after that it's just a luxury of finding a place you like

euler i am a little intrigued by this idea and i think i might do a thread on it

Vampyroteuthis Weeks (nakhchivan), Friday, 21 October 2011 18:18 (2 years ago) Permalink

I'm intrigued by it but I have this funny feeling it's going to end up like this: everywhere is p much fine when you're not from anywhere in particular AND you have secure employment there at a reasonable living wage.

WE DO NOT HAVE "SECRET" "MEETINGS." I DO NOT HAVE A SECOND (Laurel), Friday, 21 October 2011 18:21 (2 years ago) Permalink

ALSO WHEN YOU ARE A ROBOT

WE DO NOT HAVE "SECRET" "MEETINGS." I DO NOT HAVE A SECOND (Laurel), Friday, 21 October 2011 18:27 (2 years ago) Permalink

haha I'm prepared to play the bad guy but I think being somewhere w/ a sense of place is prob more important to me than most people?

I have said this in other threads but over the last few decades a lot of small towns or whatever have been drained of the sense of place they did have - if you're moving somewhere and choosing between walmart and subway or walmart and subway, well...(that's isolating city planning and local businesses as the only factor, and they aren't, but that sorta the raw material)

iatee, Friday, 21 October 2011 18:33 (2 years ago) Permalink

that's sorta*

iatee, Friday, 21 October 2011 18:33 (2 years ago) Permalink

lincoln, NE is actually quite nice

homosexual II, Friday, 21 October 2011 18:33 (2 years ago) Permalink

okay weird looking link but it works

iatee, Friday, 21 October 2011 18:40 (2 years ago) Permalink

lincoln, NE is actually quite nice

― homosexual II, Friday, October 21, 2011 4:03 PM (8 minutes ago) Bookmark

otm!

kate78, Friday, 21 October 2011 18:42 (2 years ago) Permalink

guys... we have the internet now

dayo, Friday, 21 October 2011 20:01 (2 years ago) Permalink

it doesn't matter where we are... as long as we're jacked in... to the INTERNET

dayo, Friday, 21 October 2011 20:02 (2 years ago) Permalink

it doesn't matter where we are... as long as we're jackin... to the INTERNET

do not wake the dragon (DJP), Friday, 21 October 2011 20:02 (2 years ago) Permalink

do not wake the dragon (DJP), Friday, 21 October 2011 20:03 (2 years ago) Permalink

my jackin' just went up 200%

dayo, Friday, 21 October 2011 20:09 (2 years ago) Permalink

I wld like to read that book about the fragmentation of civil society, bowling alone or something like that. has anybody read it? any good?

dayo, Friday, 21 October 2011 20:10 (2 years ago) Permalink

time was your neighbour would lend it to you

nakhchivan, Friday, 21 October 2011 20:11 (2 years ago) Permalink

when I think of people living in their big houses in America I just think of wemmick from great expectations

dayo, Friday, 21 October 2011 20:16 (2 years ago) Permalink

I would build a moat around my house if I could

dayo, Friday, 21 October 2011 20:16 (2 years ago) Permalink

I've taught using excerpts of Bowling Alone! I like thinking about this issue of "place", because I don't have any place I'm from, & so I'm prone to imagining or fantasizing about it. I think this is a common plight of children of immigrants, anyway.

Euler, Friday, 21 October 2011 20:36 (2 years ago) Permalink

I am also a child of immigrants and yeah there's something to that. I think that's one reason why I like big cities - it offers people a sense of place without requiring any connection from the person in return

dayo, Friday, 21 October 2011 20:38 (2 years ago) Permalink

I'm a child of the countryside and I like cities for exactly the same reason

do not wake the dragon (DJP), Friday, 21 October 2011 20:40 (2 years ago) Permalink

yeah I can get with that; actually the place I live now, in the great plains, is pretty much a "nowhere" place & I confess that suits me also: I never feel like an outsider here, because there's nothing to be inside.

Euler, Friday, 21 October 2011 20:40 (2 years ago) Permalink

xp

Euler, Friday, 21 October 2011 20:41 (2 years ago) Permalink

I live out in the middle of the sticks and I hate the isolation.

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Friday, 21 October 2011 21:02 (2 years ago) Permalink

I am also a child of immigrants and yeah there's something to that. I think that's one reason why I like big cities - it offers people a sense of place without requiring any connection from the person in return

that's an interesting idea, I've never heard it phrased like that

iatee, Friday, 21 October 2011 21:43 (2 years ago) Permalink

I've never felt like more of an outsider than when I've lived in small cities. The history of people is generally impenetrable; nothing worse than sitting at a social gathering listening to nothing but "remember when" conversations. In big cities I can get lost in everything going on around me.

Ryan, Friday, 21 October 2011 22:22 (2 years ago) Permalink

My dream has always been to live in an apartment in a city. Sadly, I'm married to a man who is dead set against it (he actually suggested living in an RV in a city trailer park as an alternative!).

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Saturday, 22 October 2011 00:10 (2 years ago) Permalink

what's his reason? just a cultural thing?

iatee, Saturday, 22 October 2011 00:14 (2 years ago) Permalink

every thread I start turns into the suburbs thread

iatee, Saturday, 22 October 2011 00:15 (2 years ago) Permalink

totally euler's fault tho

iatee, Saturday, 22 October 2011 00:15 (2 years ago) Permalink

It's because his dream is to live in the middle of nowhere.

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Saturday, 22 October 2011 00:21 (2 years ago) Permalink

But a city trailer park does seem like a compromise, unless you're thinking any place that would have a trailer park does not qualify as a city.

nickn, Saturday, 22 October 2011 00:45 (2 years ago) Permalink

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/23/opinion/sunday/will-dropouts-save-america.html

all college students should just drop out and start multi-billion dollar computer companies - y/n

iatee, Sunday, 23 October 2011 22:17 (2 years ago) Permalink

Well, one thing that colleges can teach is critical thinking, which might have been of some help to the author of that strange piece. I think I expect too much out of the New York Times these days.

Not a shock, the author is one of those bizarro "business gurus". http://www.powerofeyecontact.com/

Spectrum, Sunday, 23 October 2011 23:04 (2 years ago) Permalink

Eurgh

medium rear (silby), Sunday, 23 October 2011 23:08 (2 years ago) Permalink

If the availability of student loans contracts, or if students are less willing to take those loans, I would guess the non-prestige big private unis will be taking an enrollment hit, if they don't differentiate their environments from public schools. This is just a random thought I had on this topic he other day.

Also occurs to me that plenty of places likely won't even do something to lower the nominal tuition price. As long as there's still at least one student who can afford full pay, they will cheerfully extract it from them, even if the average discount rate goes up.

medium rear (silby), Sunday, 23 October 2011 23:14 (2 years ago) Permalink

yeah I think non-prestige private unis are gonna be at the forefront of the crisis, cause they've always been offering a luxury product - the idea that they're offering a luxury product (rather than a 'better investment') is finally reaching the mainstream.

lowering tuition is difficult when you have fixed costs dependent on that tuition, but there are only so many rich people interested in non-prestige private unis in the country.

iatee, Sunday, 23 October 2011 23:29 (2 years ago) Permalink

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2011/09/how-dangerous-are-college-rankings-and-the-rat-race-for-prestige/245850/

^ complicating factors for those schools. people will always secretly believe that more expensive things are better and the race for that elusive prestige signal is expensive.

iatee, Sunday, 23 October 2011 23:35 (2 years ago) Permalink

schools should charge a sliding tuition based on their national rankings

dayo, Sunday, 23 October 2011 23:45 (2 years ago) Permalink

"non-prestige private unis" are prob gonna take a big hit---glad I don't work for one---unless they can get kids jobs that pay better than state unis, or if the bad guys kill our public unis.

Euler, Sunday, 23 October 2011 23:59 (2 years ago) Permalink

the prob is public unis are gonna have increasing enrollment regardless in the future as they're increasingly considered 'the pragmatic decision' - so they can be defunded again and again before they'll actually start losing students.

iatee, Monday, 24 October 2011 00:02 (2 years ago) Permalink

that's true but there's a lower bound on how defunded they can get (we're playing with that already)

Euler, Monday, 24 October 2011 01:52 (2 years ago) Permalink

http://chronicle.com/article/The-US-Should-Adopt/129504/

iatee, Tuesday, 25 October 2011 01:02 (2 years ago) Permalink

we were talking about migration in this thread?

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/28/us/americans-migration-patterns-shifting.html?_r=1

dayo, Friday, 28 October 2011 01:59 (2 years ago) Permalink

founded in 1859 to provide free education for the working class

lol that game's been over for a while

elan, Tuesday, 1 November 2011 14:03 (2 years ago) Permalink

But here's a revenue idea: contract students out for arch/engineering jobs and make them work for free. Call it an internship.

elan, Tuesday, 1 November 2011 14:06 (2 years ago) Permalink

Despite the grabby headline, that article at least calls out the writers of the myopic Jeremiads for what they are.

I need to learn more about this bit of data:

Their results are sobering. The Collegiate Learning Assessment reveals that some 45 percent of students in the sample had made effectively no progress in critical thinking, complex reasoning, and writing in their first two years. And a look at their academic experience helps to explain why. […] Half the students in the sample had not taken a course that required more than twenty pages of writing in the previous semester, while a third had not even taken a course that required as much as forty pages a week of reading. […] two points come through with striking clarity. First, traditional subjects and methods seem to retain their educational value. Nowadays the liberal arts attract a far smaller proportion of students than they did two generations ago. Still, those majoring in liberal arts fields—humanities and social sciences, natural sciences and mathematics—outperformed those studying business, communications, and other new, practical majors on the CLA..

whoop, up the butt it goes (silby), Sunday, 6 November 2011 02:37 (2 years ago) Permalink

The goddamn liberal arts are still the foundation of our goddamn civic society, is what my takeaway is.

whoop, up the butt it goes (silby), Sunday, 6 November 2011 02:38 (2 years ago) Permalink

My problem: I don't have a degree. In anything. I should get one so that I can go farther in society. I'd prefer to get something like General Studies or Liberal Arts, something that gives me a good background in life. I know that no one takes either one of those degrees seriously. What should I do?

Sorry to drag this off topic.

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Sunday, 6 November 2011 02:49 (2 years ago) Permalink

my honest to god advice is to put a fake BA on your resume from somewhere inconspicuous and believable

iatee, Sunday, 6 November 2011 02:52 (2 years ago) Permalink

that said, I know your situation right now is kinda shitty and there are things to be said about actually learning shit for 4(+...) years. you should look into the very cheapest public university you can find (generally = 2 years at cc -> transfer). you'd qualify for pell grants and there are actually *tons* of scholarships out there in america, some of them are pretty obscure and few people apply to them.

student loans are a devil, but if you only took gov't loans and planned ahead to pay them back w/ IBR (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_Based_Repayment) you could be alright even if you didn't find yourself in a fantastic situation after your degree. IBR is new and I think some people think it won't last forever.

but 'going to college' might actually be a decent way out of your life situation, come to think of it. the process more than the career options afterwards.

iatee, Sunday, 6 November 2011 03:13 (2 years ago) Permalink

Their results are sobering. The Collegiate Learning Assessment reveals that some 45 percent of students in the sample had made effectively no progress in critical thinking, complex reasoning, and writing in their first two years. And a look at their academic experience helps to explain why. […] Half the students in the sample had not taken a course that required more than twenty pages of writing in the previous semester, while a third had not even taken a course that required as much as forty pages a week of reading. […] two points come through with striking clarity. First, traditional subjects and methods seem to retain their educational value. Nowadays the liberal arts attract a far smaller proportion of students than they did two generations ago. Still, those majoring in liberal arts fields—humanities and social sciences, natural sciences and mathematics—outperformed those studying business, communications, and other new, practical majors on the CLA..

― whoop, up the butt it goes (silby), Saturday, November 5, 2011 10:37 PM Bookmark

This strikes me as a bit misleading though -- since when are "natural sciences" and "mathematics" considered part of the liberal arts? And since when is communications considered a "practical" major -- I always thought that was liberal arts lite.

pass the duchy pon the left hand side (musical duke) (Hurting 2), Sunday, 6 November 2011 18:00 (2 years ago) Permalink

"liberal arts" is just supposed to be "general knowledge"--science is a liberal art! "humanities" and "liberal arts" are not the same thing

max, Sunday, 6 November 2011 18:05 (2 years ago) Permalink

& ive always thought of communications as a practical major. its where ppl go to become like... ppl who work in "marketing."

max, Sunday, 6 November 2011 18:08 (2 years ago) Permalink

I've heard many people knocking college over the past few months (touring in a band in the southeast, so maybe it's a demographic thing). I knew an arts degree "wouldn't amount to anything" but went ahead and got my B.A. and I learned many wonderful things, had some inspirational teachers, got to study in Egypt, and in general had my worldview opened up. I wouldn't take any of that back. Plus, having a degree went good on my resume and no doubt helped me get some work.

I do think things are changing though, with student finance laws, with tuition rising and program cutbacks. Back when I was in school, I had HOPE cover tuition and got a couple grand per semester from the Pell Grant, so I could work part-time and still afford to go to school. And have the spare time needed for studies. I think if I ever go back, it's going to have to be in another country.

Emperor Cos Dashit (Adam Bruneau), Sunday, 6 November 2011 18:24 (2 years ago) Permalink

& ive always thought of communications as a practical major. its where ppl go to become like... ppl who work in "marketing."

I've always thought of communications as the sorority girl version of a business major (at least at my school...)...it's practical insomuch as it might signal to certain employers that you're someone who was more interested in getting a job than learning for the sake of learning, but at the same time it doesn't actually give you a real skill

iatee, Sunday, 6 November 2011 18:44 (2 years ago) Permalink

I don't think the people who give them jobs usually think that. They're probably communications, business or hospitality majors themselves, so they're not going to be snobs about it.

bamcquern, Sunday, 6 November 2011 18:47 (2 years ago) Permalink

totally, that's not their actual thought process, but there's still this unconscious signaling game going on. even if it's just 'this person is demonstrating that they think more like me and picked a *practical* major* because we are *practical* people'

iatee, Sunday, 6 November 2011 18:56 (2 years ago) Permalink

incidentally people getting business/communications/etc. degrees are probably a 'bigger part of the college bubble' (if we want to look at it like that) than humanities majors

http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d10/figures/fig_15.asp?referrer=figures

iatee, Sunday, 6 November 2011 19:04 (2 years ago) Permalink

communications is a made-up major for girls who arent rich/hip enough to major in art history

so solaris (Lamp), Sunday, 6 November 2011 19:06 (2 years ago) Permalink

what do we think about girls who major in psychology

ASPIE Rocky (dayo), Sunday, 6 November 2011 19:13 (2 years ago) Permalink

psych is the 'I like learning but I have absolutely no clue what I want to major in' major, tho I do know multiple girls who are now in psych phds so maybe they actually like it

iatee, Sunday, 6 November 2011 19:14 (2 years ago) Permalink

^^had a long conversation with an old friend who is in the midst of her psychology phd. pretty sure i made some cracks back in the day when she was an undergrad, but she's sure shown me.

encarta it (Gukbe), Sunday, 6 November 2011 19:16 (2 years ago) Permalink

one hopes they like it, if they're doing PhDs xp

whoop, up the butt it goes (silby), Sunday, 6 November 2011 19:16 (2 years ago) Permalink

that was a p shitty post i dont know why im so sour this morning

i have lots of advanced opinions abt 'practical' majors but it mostly just boils down to the fact that a lot less ppl should be going to university than currently do

so solaris (Lamp), Sunday, 6 November 2011 19:17 (2 years ago) Permalink

i'm doing a masters in critical theory

plax (ico), Sunday, 6 November 2011 19:19 (2 years ago) Permalink

I think this thread more or less agrees with you on that last point. xp

plax I hope you aren't paying money for that

whoop, up the butt it goes (silby), Sunday, 6 November 2011 19:20 (2 years ago) Permalink

unless you are like wealthy or whatever in which case neat

whoop, up the butt it goes (silby), Sunday, 6 November 2011 19:20 (2 years ago) Permalink

anything that can be described as "practical" is stupid

max, Sunday, 6 November 2011 19:20 (2 years ago) Permalink

i'm not a very practical person

plax (ico), Sunday, 6 November 2011 19:21 (2 years ago) Permalink

yeah, when I become a computer science professor six or seven years from now my goal will be to make computer science departments less practical

whoop, up the butt it goes (silby), Sunday, 6 November 2011 19:21 (2 years ago) Permalink

ppl can learn to program on their own time, it's pretty difficult to teach people to be good programmers in a classroom anyway

whoop, up the butt it goes (silby), Sunday, 6 November 2011 19:22 (2 years ago) Permalink

practical degrees are p funny partly because theyre so completely impractical, ppl are wasting so much time and money getting a degree that teaches them nothing and 'signals' increasingly less. mostly ppl should just work admin or entry level positions for a couple of years and take w/e professional certification courses theyre going to have to take anyway at night and both they and employers wld be better off blah blah blah work farms in new hampshire

i mean i think education is p fantastic but what if most ppl dont really want to learn about greek history or genetics or chaucer they just want a job that earns them some money

so solaris (Lamp), Sunday, 6 November 2011 19:46 (2 years ago) Permalink

kinda feel like everybody should just major in a science, at worse you become a lab tech and make 40k

ASPIE Rocky (dayo), Sunday, 6 November 2011 19:47 (2 years ago) Permalink

not even true for lots of science majors tho

iatee, Sunday, 6 November 2011 19:51 (2 years ago) Permalink

that's true, everybody should just major in biology or biotech or bioinformatics

ASPIE Rocky (dayo), Sunday, 6 November 2011 19:52 (2 years ago) Permalink

the bigger problem is that we actually do need a certain amount of people to do generic white collar jobs, a 'liberal arts education' is prob as good a preparation as you're gonna get (powerpoint on hegel -> powerpoint on car insurance companies)

but it's unclear how many people and even more unclear how many people 10 years from now and really hard to imagine that this is some dynamic situation where you can expect most people to look at the macro picture and be like "oh clearly we need X more people in this field" - you can plan ahead w/ some things but right now you're asking 18 y/os to make 6 figure investments in a super complicated market. I'm not sure what the answer is beyond 'college needs to be cheaper'.

iatee, Sunday, 6 November 2011 20:03 (2 years ago) Permalink

I majored in communication because I thought it was the same thing as communications, but it's not, so I switched to "Journalism and Media Studies" which wound up JUST being journalism, and not even modern tech-centric journalism but like entire classes on how to report news for radio and stuff like that. So now I have a journalism degree. I still am trying to work out how I wound up with a journalism degree.

Parker Posey as herself dancing to house music in NYC in 1995 (Stevie D(eux)), Sunday, 6 November 2011 20:06 (2 years ago) Permalink

'this person is demonstrating that they think more like me and picked a *practical* major* because we are *practical* people

I was a comp sci major dropout and lol @ the immense mutual disdain between the theoretical comp sci/maths+CS people and the Business & IT majors

how do i shot slime mould voltron form (a passing spacecadet), Sunday, 6 November 2011 20:32 (2 years ago) Permalink

the bigger problem is that we actually do need a certain amount of people to do generic white collar jobs, a 'liberal arts education' is prob as good a preparation as you're gonna get (powerpoint on hegel -> powerpoint on car insurance companies)

sure, except that most white collar jobs dont need a liberal arts education at all, and shouldnt require one, and a good liberal arts education probably shouldnt be abt powerpoint

so solaris (Lamp), Sunday, 6 November 2011 20:37 (2 years ago) Permalink

xp lol, i thought it was just me (another cs dropout)

Nhex, Sunday, 6 November 2011 20:40 (2 years ago) Permalink

ya I agree w/ all of that but I think our culture is at a point where it'd be pretty hard to convince people (esp since the people 'in charge' almost all went to college) otherwise. instead things are going in the opposite direction even, w/ fast food places weeding people out if they don't have a college degree.

also our unreliable hs education system makes a college degree that much more insurance that you have rudimentary math and writing skills.

xp

iatee, Sunday, 6 November 2011 20:43 (2 years ago) Permalink

and even then...

Nhex, Monday, 7 November 2011 00:10 (2 years ago) Permalink

yeah, when I become a computer science professor six or seven years from now my goal will be to make computer science departments less practical

― whoop, up the butt it goes (silby), Sunday, November 6, 2011 7:21 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark

<3

new rap guy (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Monday, 7 November 2011 05:55 (2 years ago) Permalink

our computer science department is a total circus sideshow imo - all sorts of obnoxious industry trendhopping going on

fill up ass of emoticon fart (crüt), Monday, 7 November 2011 06:08 (2 years ago) Permalink

your <3s mean the world to me hoos; if you can send them along also to the graduate admissions committees of the schools I'm applying to…

whoop, up the butt it goes (silby), Monday, 7 November 2011 08:03 (2 years ago) Permalink

yeah I could go off on a huge tear about computer science's role/function/mission in the academy but I won't

whoop, up the butt it goes (silby), Monday, 7 November 2011 08:03 (2 years ago) Permalink

http://graphicsweb.wsj.com/documents/NILF1111/#term=

J0rdan S., Monday, 7 November 2011 16:46 (2 years ago) Permalink

That table comes from this:

http://cew.georgetown.edu/whatsitworth/

Finding - if you want to be comfortable study engineering

American Fear of Pranksterism (Ed), Monday, 7 November 2011 16:55 (2 years ago) Permalink

I think the CS program at my university now has a software engineering track that is more focused on the methodology and practice of programming. The long, math-and-logic proof classes are still there, but as a core.

mh, Monday, 7 November 2011 17:02 (2 years ago) Permalink

engineering is prob the safest bet for a lot of people individually but 'everyone becomes engineers' is not really a solution for our bigger unemployment problems. it's not like there are a million open engineer positions going unfilled - I know some people who graduated from good engineering programs and are pretty underemployed.

iatee, Monday, 7 November 2011 17:06 (2 years ago) Permalink

what if they create an organic computer, ya'll silicon lightweight type engineers won't be sitting so high huh

ASPIE Rocky (dayo), Monday, 7 November 2011 17:11 (2 years ago) Permalink

Run it on carrots and parsnips!!!!!!

bunnicula, Monday, 7 November 2011 17:12 (2 years ago) Permalink

free range motherboards

new rap guy (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Monday, 7 November 2011 17:13 (2 years ago) Permalink

fwiw, a friend works at John Deere and a lot of his engineer colleagues are Indian dudes who went to college in the US

mh, Monday, 7 November 2011 17:15 (2 years ago) Permalink

My girlfriends brother graduated with an engineering degree in may and now has a job where he is being paid me and my girlfriends combined salary. Otoh his job sounds so boring.

Not really any reason for this post other than my own jealousy

max, Monday, 7 November 2011 17:28 (2 years ago) Permalink

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/business/2011/11/why-kids-are-all-broke/44664/

generational warfare c/d

will it 'catch on'

iatee, Tuesday, 8 November 2011 01:34 (2 years ago) Permalink

I mean beyond the stuff already done by congress on a regular basis

iatee, Tuesday, 8 November 2011 01:34 (2 years ago) Permalink

with respect to those present i have been saying since i was 16 that the boomers left us fucked

new rap guy (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Tuesday, 8 November 2011 04:43 (2 years ago) Permalink

some suggestions re student debt via mike konczal

http://rortybomb.wordpress.com/2011/11/07/two-steps-towards-tackling-our-current-student-loan-problems/

max, Tuesday, 8 November 2011 15:48 (2 years ago) Permalink

that's a good article

I like the framing of 'public option' tho irl we're drifting away from that instead if coming closer to having a feasible 'public option'. it's more complicated because education is more of an investment than health care. but it's a personal investment *and* a social investment and right now we're failing at funding the 2nd part.

iatee, Tuesday, 8 November 2011 16:23 (2 years ago) Permalink

yeah i liked that framing too. the demise of the public university is a really bad thing for everyone, private schools and their students as much as anyone, in particular w/r/t controlling costs.

heres a longer thing about "public options" that konczal has linked to before

http://slackwire.blogspot.com/2010/09/public-options-general-case.html

max, Tuesday, 8 November 2011 16:38 (2 years ago) Permalink

yeah there's a never ending price spiral atm w/ public universities capable of justifying any price increase - as long as they remain cheaper than private schools they're 'the bargain' and private schools operating w/ their own weird games - super 'competitive' w/r/t everything but price (even that isn't *always* true, which is why this is a weird market)

iatee, Tuesday, 8 November 2011 16:58 (2 years ago) Permalink

yeah shoulda read that first looks like he's saying that and more

iatee, Tuesday, 8 November 2011 17:19 (2 years ago) Permalink

One of the two who is still in engineering plans to work in finance after graduation.

lol

ASPIE Rocky (dayo), Tuesday, 8 November 2011 18:03 (2 years ago) Permalink

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2011/11/the-tyranny-of-meritocracy/248061/

what is she saying here? my brain is too tired to parse this

ASPIE Rocky (dayo), Tuesday, 8 November 2011 18:10 (2 years ago) Permalink

oh who gives a fuck

goole, Tuesday, 8 November 2011 18:15 (2 years ago) Permalink

i literally read that URL and went "pffffffffffft" at my desk

what's happening to our based god??? (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Tuesday, 8 November 2011 19:24 (2 years ago) Permalink

key graf

This overlooks a more important question, which is why the system went wrong. Don't tell me it got hostage to the wrong ideology--tell me why all those professors we paid millions of dollars to study economics couldn't provide a convincing rebuttal to that ideology in advance of the crash. Don't tell me that regulators were stupid or bankers got greedy until you first explain to me why tens of thousands of very well educated people, most of them graduates of colleges and professional schools that had aggressively winnowed them based on intelligence, barely outperformed a bunch of upstart micks, third-generation coupon-clipping WASP dimwits, and central bankers who still worshipped the barbarous relic of the gold standard?

what's happening to our based god??? (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Tuesday, 8 November 2011 19:26 (2 years ago) Permalink

yikes

ah, how quaint (Matt P), Tuesday, 8 November 2011 19:27 (2 years ago) Permalink

I'm not sure I'm really following her point.

pass the duchy pon the left hand side (musical duke) (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 8 November 2011 19:41 (2 years ago) Permalink

i think she's saying "the problem is the meritocracy, cause clearly it fucked us just as badly as the robber barons"?

what's happening to our based god??? (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Tuesday, 8 November 2011 19:53 (2 years ago) Permalink

which is totally fascist and batshit?

what's happening to our based god??? (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Tuesday, 8 November 2011 19:53 (2 years ago) Permalink

Interesting how she slips in "a few mick upstarts" -- McArdle who grew up on the Upper West Side etc.

pass the duchy pon the left hand side (musical duke) (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 8 November 2011 19:54 (2 years ago) Permalink

Don't tell me that regulators were stupid or bankers got greedy until you first explain to me why tens of thousands of very well educated people, most of them graduates of colleges and professional schools that had aggressively winnowed them based on intelligence, barely outperformed a bunch of upstart micks, third-generation coupon-clipping WASP dimwits, and central bankers who still worshipped the barbarous relic of the gold standard?

like it sounds like she's saying "clearly these technocrats are all know-nothings and we should scrap the deal, cause i mean look at all those pre-depression people that did just fine clipping coupons"???

what's happening to our based god??? (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Tuesday, 8 November 2011 19:57 (2 years ago) Permalink

it's a sloppy argument but I think it's notable that someone like her is in a position that they feel like they *have* to talk about this. she might be ~occupying~ the right-wing corner of a left-wing subject, but watching conservatives approach ows-related issues is interesting cause a lot of the time they're basically forced to agree. there are not very many subjects outside of 'killing obl was a good thing' where that really happens these days.

iatee, Tuesday, 8 November 2011 19:58 (2 years ago) Permalink

she's better than david brooks fwiw

iatee, Tuesday, 8 November 2011 19:59 (2 years ago) Permalink

When she says "coupon-clipping" I assume she's referring to bond coupons, not supermarket?

pass the duchy pon the left hand side (musical duke) (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 8 November 2011 20:01 (2 years ago) Permalink

her argument is something like

1. bad old blue-blood days
2. the ivies start letting more jews and catholics in
3. crash of 2008 happens

??

no i don't get it either

goole, Tuesday, 8 November 2011 20:14 (2 years ago) Permalink

seems like a reflexive need to not-explain the crash by reaching for some kind of business-page friendly greater narrative. oh, it wasn't an "oligarchic" elite that wrecked the world, but a meritocratic one. hmm, makes you think.

goole, Tuesday, 8 November 2011 20:15 (2 years ago) Permalink

I remember reading somewhere that there's a narrative that plays bigger in Western Europe of non-blueblood upstarts coming to wreck up the financial system -- class (and sometimes ethnicity) overtones are more present in stories about "rogue traders" and the like who don't come from the right backgrounds/schools.

pass the duchy pon the left hand side (musical duke) (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 8 November 2011 20:18 (2 years ago) Permalink

she seems to be using "change in admission standards at elite colleges of 80 years ago" and "upward mobility" somewhat interchangeably, which is pretty fucking stupid!!! ps i hate megan mccardle she totally sucks.

goole, Tuesday, 8 November 2011 20:20 (2 years ago) Permalink

Yup, she sucks and is dumb.

pass the duchy pon the left hand side (musical duke) (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 8 November 2011 20:25 (2 years ago) Permalink

srsly

what's happening to our based god??? (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Tuesday, 8 November 2011 20:25 (2 years ago) Permalink

it's worth noting that whatever her definition of meritocracy is, she certainly includes herself in the category

iatee, Tuesday, 8 November 2011 20:48 (2 years ago) Permalink

and yeah the 'went to harvard' = meritocracy pov has a lot of faults w/ it esp since if you look at harvard (etc.)'s student body today you wouldn't think "wow that is a great institution when it comes to turning significant quantities of poor people into rcih people." otoh how do you define 'meritocracy'. it's a word that makes sense as a vague idea but when you try and sketch out a strict definition you run into a lot of problems. is someone who dropped out of hs but started their own successful business part of the 'meritocracy'? is someone who went to harvard but works as a (insert crappy job) part of the meritocracy?

iatee, Tuesday, 8 November 2011 20:55 (2 years ago) Permalink

does she really include herself in it? I get an old money vibe.

pass the duchy pon the left hand side (musical duke) (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 8 November 2011 20:59 (2 years ago) Permalink

really what you have is 'successful people are successful people' and maybe our system of credentialism is more 'fair' today than it was 80 years ago and maybe social networks are slightly less important when it comes to moving ahead. but I mean george w. bush was president notsolongago - very old school oligarchy was still on top of the american cheerleader pyramid when things went to shit. maybe it was less prevalent than before, but it's hard to pretend like we've turned into some bizarro society where nothing matters but test scores.

iatee, Tuesday, 8 November 2011 21:00 (2 years ago) Permalink

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2011/10/the-rage-of-the-almost-elite/247638/


Of course, you might think my outlook was jaundiced because I identified with the bankers; I did go to an Ivy League school, and I eventually went to business school and spent a summer with Merrill Lynch. But I didn't know I was going to business school until shortly before I applied; it was what I did when I realized that I was never going to care as much about the inner workings of a computer as most of the guys I worked with.

And if Orwell (and I) are right, then it is I who should have had the most resentment. I did all the same things they did--went to the right schools, got good test scores--and they ended up in banking, while I ended up making a small fraction of what they did. In fact, this happened to me twice: once after college, and again after business school. My first job at the Economist paid approximately a third of what the management consulting job that I'd originally accepted had promised to pay.

iatee, Tuesday, 8 November 2011 21:02 (2 years ago) Permalink

waht

pass the duchy pon the left hand side (musical duke) (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 8 November 2011 21:24 (2 years ago) Permalink

that has to be one of the stupidest things i have read today

so solaris (Lamp), Tuesday, 8 November 2011 21:41 (2 years ago) Permalink

you guys are reading the Atlantic

The Uncanny Frankie Valley (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 8 November 2011 21:43 (2 years ago) Permalink

their new cities section is pretty good

iatee, Tuesday, 8 November 2011 21:48 (2 years ago) Permalink

^^

what's happening to our based god??? (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Tuesday, 8 November 2011 21:51 (2 years ago) Permalink

also regularly enjoy connor friedersdorfenbergerdorf or whatever

what's happening to our based god??? (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Tuesday, 8 November 2011 21:52 (2 years ago) Permalink

Other than pure envy, it's hard to see how I could somehow be made worse off if Bill Gates' income suddenly doubled, but everything else remained the same.

lol behavioural economics, lol any economics

The old WASP bastions democratized or were swept away by nimbler competitors who didn't scruple to sacrifice profits because it might look bad to the boys in the club.

the benefits of an 'elite education' at work here, huh?

Whatever the systemic injustices, it's also quite clear to everyone . . . even parasitic leeches of investment bankers . . . that their salaries only come as the result of frantic effort.

as long as its quite clear to everyone, it certainly has to be true

so solaris (Lamp), Tuesday, 8 November 2011 21:59 (2 years ago) Permalink

Megan McCardle is such a moron.

Fig On A Plate Cart (Alex in SF), Tuesday, 8 November 2011 22:34 (2 years ago) Permalink

her last name is fun to say

ASPIE Rocky (dayo), Tuesday, 8 November 2011 22:35 (2 years ago) Permalink

also regularly enjoy connor friedersdorfenbergerdorf or whatever

― what's happening to our based god??? (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Tuesday, November 8, 2011 4:52 PM Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Holy crap, I have had this guy on my gchat buddy list for like two years thinking he was some law school classmate I couldn't remember. Now I realize that I had an e-mail exchange with him a while back in response to something he wrote in the Atlantic -- maybe even an article about Law School.

pass the duchy pon the left hand side (musical duke) (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 8 November 2011 22:43 (2 years ago) Permalink

she goes between 'troll' and 'doesnt know very much about subject she's talking about'

at the end of the day the fact thy people like her and Brooks have jobs as intellectuals is pretty good evidence that we dont have a great meritocracy.

iatee, Tuesday, 8 November 2011 23:08 (2 years ago) Permalink

thy = that

iPhone making me talk all fancy like

iatee, Tuesday, 8 November 2011 23:09 (2 years ago) Permalink

Similarly, in the 1990s, when I worked with a lot of mostly blue-collar and first-generation college grads (with a fair sprinkling of Ivy Leaguers, to be sure), I didn't hear nearly so much about the rich and how greedy they were--even though in the late 1990s, income inequality was almost certainly worse than it is right now.

I thought this was a choice quote - "almost certainly worse" - wait, you are paid to write articles like these and you can't just look this up? income inequality is certainly-certainly worse today.

iatee, Tuesday, 8 November 2011 23:18 (2 years ago) Permalink

Oh god I just read more of that McArdle piece, it's so headsmackingly awful at every turn. She reminds me of the ex-girlfriend who once bragged to me (while we were in college) that of all of the children of clients of her family's tax accountant, she had made the most money (because she worked a full-time summer job). I pointed out to her that that was probably because the kind of person who has to work full-time during school isn't usually the kind of person whose family has a tax accountant. "Oh come on," she replied, "everyone has an accountant." (my parents didn't)

pass the duchy pon the left hand side (musical duke) (Hurting 2), Wednesday, 9 November 2011 00:21 (2 years ago) Permalink

http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2011/11/unemployment

iatee, Wednesday, 9 November 2011 00:41 (2 years ago) Permalink

one thing he doesn't point out is that tyler cowen makes his $ as a social-sciences professor at george mason university. there are def worse situations to be in than an econ major from a mid-tier public school but let's not pretend that's a sure ticket to, well, anywhere.

iatee, Wednesday, 9 November 2011 00:44 (2 years ago) Permalink

I mean the dude is teaching at a place where only 64% of students graduate after 6 years and those who do have an average debt load of $22,219. he doesn't have to go very far time find some people who will soon be in pretty shitty employment situations. being able to write a 5 page essay on 'public choice economics' is not actually a valuable skill for the workforce.

iatee, Wednesday, 9 November 2011 01:17 (2 years ago) Permalink

go very far to find*

iatee, Wednesday, 9 November 2011 01:19 (2 years ago) Permalink

64% is a pretty good graduation rate these days, iirc!

the MMMM cult (La Lechera), Wednesday, 9 November 2011 01:23 (2 years ago) Permalink

that's true and if it were a european university it might not even be a tragic statistic, but w/ the american cost structure it is. I mean he's teaching at 'the cheap option' ~20k/y total cost - and fewer than 40% of entering students are actually earning that 80k degree in 4 years. and in the bigger picture of higher ed this still falls under 'not as bad as most places'. if he can't find a current student in a shitty economic situation he's not looking very hard. anyway he probably has weirdo libertarian kids who make 53% signs in his classes.

iatee, Wednesday, 9 November 2011 01:37 (2 years ago) Permalink

that's true and if it were a european university it might not even be a tragic statistic, but w/ the american cost structure it is.

64% would be appalling in most of europe wouldn't it?

caek, Wednesday, 9 November 2011 09:28 (2 years ago) Permalink

idk I was mostly going off my knowledge of the french public uni system where it's pretty easy to fail an entire year / drop out / take forever to graduate. seems like it's easier to justify those things when your only investment is time.

iatee, Wednesday, 9 November 2011 16:07 (2 years ago) Permalink

64% is a pretty good graduation rate these days, iirc!

that's mind-boggling to me

dense macabre (DJP), Wednesday, 9 November 2011 16:12 (2 years ago) Permalink

fucking megan mcardle

horseshoe, Wednesday, 9 November 2011 16:13 (2 years ago) Permalink

no thank you

dense macabre (DJP), Wednesday, 9 November 2011 16:13 (2 years ago) Permalink

otm

horseshoe, Wednesday, 9 November 2011 16:15 (2 years ago) Permalink

Attrition is the American way in education at all levels. The whole Rube Goldberg machine leaks at every valve. Fewer than 70 percent of high school students graduate. Just over 70 percent of those graduates will enter some form of postsecondary education. But barely more than half of those who start BA programs will finish them in six years, and only 30 percent of those who start community college will win an associate degree in three years. After that point, most people don’t manage to graduate.

Source: Our Universities: Why Are They Failing?

o. nate, Wednesday, 9 November 2011 16:39 (2 years ago) Permalink

that's mind-boggling to me

yeah i think the top tier colleges are p much the only exception to the stats o.nate posted e.g. harvard's graduation rate is 97%, stanfords 95%.

so solaris (Lamp), Wednesday, 9 November 2011 17:03 (2 years ago) Permalink

Cowen responds to Avent:

http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2011/11/and-the-actuaries-shall-eat.html

o. nate, Wednesday, 9 November 2011 17:04 (2 years ago) Permalink

the expensive little lutheran school i went to has graduation rates in the mid 80s, but it felt like a 4 year summer camp

goole, Wednesday, 9 November 2011 17:05 (2 years ago) Permalink

er i had a point there...

if it's nice to be in, and the kids there are well supported, healthy, don't have much life stress... kind of like rich high schools, rich grade schools, etc.

goole, Wednesday, 9 November 2011 17:07 (2 years ago) Permalink

one thing i can't shake when thinking about college, as a historical thing, is that the whole model of higher education, the liberal arts, whatever, wasn't to make good workers or even make more geniuses but to make gentlemen.

that looks kind of forehead-slap dumb now that i write it out tho.

goole, Wednesday, 9 November 2011 17:10 (2 years ago) Permalink

I think you're right on the history, at least in the past couple of centuries. If you go back even further, I guess it was designed mainly to prepare people for roles in the Church.

o. nate, Wednesday, 9 November 2011 17:17 (2 years ago) Permalink

to prepare white people

puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Wednesday, 9 November 2011 17:22 (2 years ago) Permalink

Is that from a cookbook?

o. nate, Wednesday, 9 November 2011 17:27 (2 years ago) Permalink

generation mojo de ajo

puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Wednesday, 9 November 2011 17:29 (2 years ago) Permalink

that an institution serves a totally different purpose than it did back in the day isn't necessarily a bad thing...you can def argue that our 'best scholars in the world' university system was a competitive advantage for our economy over most of the 20th century despite its 'make gentlemen' origins

it's maybe harder to argue that its a net plus in 2011. lotsa good comparisons w/ health care system.

iatee, Wednesday, 9 November 2011 17:56 (2 years ago) Permalink

yeah i think the top tier colleges are p much the only exception to the stats o.nate posted e.g. harvard's graduation rate is 97%, stanfords 95%.

― so solaris (Lamp), Wednesday, November 9, 2011 12:03 PM (53 minutes ago) Bookmark

yeah but these places bend over backwards to make sure that nobody fails out

ASPIE Rocky (dayo), Wednesday, 9 November 2011 17:57 (2 years ago) Permalink

they operate as businesses and it is not in their long-terml financial interest to have people drop out. it's sorta a shame public schools don't have this logic but that would require them to also turn into alumni donation-based corporations

iatee, Wednesday, 9 November 2011 18:11 (2 years ago) Permalink

xp to dayo - yeah, totally, ime the level of institutional support at those places is p fantastic & theres def an emphasis placed on graduating everyone (and everyone getting at least at a b). where i work now im always surprised by how little effort is put into student services or making sure everyone does well &c &c

mostly tho i was sorta echoing dan's surprise at how low the 6 year graduation rate in general is because that was outside my undergrad xp

so solaris (Lamp), Wednesday, 9 November 2011 18:16 (2 years ago) Permalink

yeah, totally, ime the level of institutional support at those places is p fantastic
yeah -- please compare expensive 4-year private schools with qualified therapists available as but one of many varied student services with community colleges that have no therapists and are not anything summer camp like at all. now compare their graduation rates. investment in student support services is directly related to graduation rates/"student success".

the MMMM cult (La Lechera), Wednesday, 9 November 2011 18:36 (2 years ago) Permalink

I remember reading some article about Yale law school investing in a dog that students could rent out when they felt sad

iatee, Wednesday, 9 November 2011 18:37 (2 years ago) Permalink

how novel

the MMMM cult (La Lechera), Wednesday, 9 November 2011 18:38 (2 years ago) Permalink

mostly tho i was sorta echoing dan's surprise at how low the 6 year graduation rate in general is because that was outside my undergrad xp

I mean, I didn't expect to see graduation rates across the board to equal the Ivies, but I didn't expect to see 66% quoted as a high rate, either; I would have guessed a national average somewhere in the low 80s.

dense macabre (DJP), Wednesday, 9 November 2011 18:39 (2 years ago) Permalink

no way
however, it was news when it was revealed that chicago state had a graduation rate of like 9% or something like that
that's notably bad

30-50%? not that bad.

the MMMM cult (La Lechera), Wednesday, 9 November 2011 18:41 (2 years ago) Permalink

think about all of the reasons people leave school, then think about all of the reasons people don't finish in this magical 6 year period -- it adds up

the MMMM cult (La Lechera), Wednesday, 9 November 2011 18:41 (2 years ago) Permalink

I would def learn to juggle to work as a happiness consultant at yale

puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Wednesday, 9 November 2011 18:42 (2 years ago) Permalink

But are these actually dropout rates, or do they lump transfers in as well?

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Wednesday, 9 November 2011 18:43 (2 years ago) Permalink

9%? wau

TBH my perception is very, very skewed because the vast majority of reasons why ppl would leave school were covered by undergrad services; multiple ppl had kids and still graduated in 6 years, had drug dependency issues and still graduated in 6 years, went crazy to the point of involuntary committal and still finished in 6 years, etc.

dense macabre (DJP), Wednesday, 9 November 2011 18:45 (2 years ago) Permalink

it's not a measurement of dropouts, but graduations

the MMMM cult (La Lechera), Wednesday, 9 November 2011 18:45 (2 years ago) Permalink

(to xtine)

the MMMM cult (La Lechera), Wednesday, 9 November 2011 18:45 (2 years ago) Permalink

No, I meant that the graduation rate may have been artificially depressed by the number of transfers. I know that it works that way in some states with high schools.

Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Wednesday, 9 November 2011 18:50 (2 years ago) Permalink

If those same grads are highly willing to be geographically mobile, highly willing to consider actuarial training, and highly willing to take tougher courses and study where the jobs are (doesn’t have to be tech subjects, some of those are failing too), the unemployment response to a given AD shock will be much lower.

anyway i think this is both wrong and misleading. on the whole as someone pointed out upthread its fine to say on individual level 'oh you shouldve been an actuary not a puppeteer' or w/e but there are hardly enough actuarial (or electrical engineering or software dev) jobs to give to everyone. also theres both an information and a time lag in education and its hard to fault anyone for not being prescient enough to know that IT jobs would be oversubscribed and actuaries would not or w/e.

realistically (and as well) most (white collar) jobs are only well-paying because they havent been outsourced/mechanized efficiently yet or because some credentialing body artificially restricts the supply neither of which bodes well for the prospects of young ppl in high school. the reason cowen's argument is particularly bad is because it obscures the real problem, which is that college is a bad investment for most ppl and is probably becoming increasingly worse one

so solaris (Lamp), Wednesday, 9 November 2011 18:54 (2 years ago) Permalink

otm across the board

iatee, Wednesday, 9 November 2011 18:57 (2 years ago) Permalink

TBH my perception is very, very skewed because the vast majority of reasons why ppl would leave school were covered by undergrad services; multiple ppl had kids and still graduated in 6 years, had drug dependency issues and still graduated in 6 years, went crazy to the point of involuntary committal and still finished in 6 years, etc.

― dense macabre (DJP), Wednesday, November 9, 2011 1:45 PM (10 minutes ago) Bookmark

yeah, I knew a person who completely failed across the board all her classes one semester, was given a mulligan

try doing that at a public school

there was also a story in the student newspaper about a student who stopped going to classes because she was playing WoW 16 hours a day

bet she prob ended up graduating too

in the end, ivies are probably willing to rubber stamp somebody on the way out if they get to keep their graduation rate in the 90% range

ASPIE Rocky (dayo), Wednesday, 9 November 2011 19:01 (2 years ago) Permalink

Every school I've been to (4 state colleges and one community college) has had grad rates from 7 percent (at the community college) to the low 30s percents at the highest.

My friend works at one of the state colleges with a special retention program that he spearheaded – he grew up in Compton and he tries to get kids from there to go to this college and then stay in. He's got a really small support network at the college and threats of funding cuts all the time. It's totally crushing him because he's got so many out-of-school factors he's competing with. I was obv not in his program but he was and is a mentor to me and he's one of the biggest reasons I graduated college at all (I mean look at my track record there). He's the one who convinced me I could go to grad school and guided me through that whole process. I think my point is he's an anomaly at the kind of schools I've been to and it was just awesome luck that he's part of my life. The cost for him to choose to help people like that is more taxing than I could handle.

ghost grapes (Abbbottt), Wednesday, 9 November 2011 19:07 (2 years ago) Permalink

anyway i think this is both wrong and misleading. on the whole as someone pointed out upthread its fine to say on individual level 'oh you shouldve been an actuary not a puppeteer' or w/e but there are hardly enough actuarial (or electrical engineering or software dev) jobs to give to everyone. also theres both an information and a time lag in education and its hard to fault anyone for not being prescient enough to know that IT jobs would be oversubscribed and actuaries would not or w/e.

realistically (and as well) most (white collar) jobs are only well-paying because they havent been outsourced/mechanized efficiently yet or because some credentialing body artificially restricts the supply neither of which bodes well for the prospects of young ppl in high school. the reason cowen's argument is particularly bad is because it obscures the real problem, which is that college is a bad investment for most ppl and is probably becoming increasingly worse one

― so solaris (Lamp)

I already sorta said this but I think what bothers me most is the inability for someone like cowen to contextualize this. he is *in the belly of this beast*, his current paycheck depends on people believing that a non-technical degree from a so-so american public college is a *good investment*. his future paychecks depend on that demand!

dude is the most annoying person on my google reader feed but he's still worth reading I guess.

iatee, Wednesday, 9 November 2011 19:43 (2 years ago) Permalink

Studying puppetry and then not getting a job sounds sort of like boomer-parent life expectations colliding with our generation's reality. But yeah it's kind of a strawman too inasmuch as it's not very representative.

pass the duchy pon the left hand side (musical duke) (Hurting 2), Wednesday, 9 November 2011 19:43 (2 years ago) Permalink

For reference, the 4 and 6-year graduation rates are the %age of first-time college students entering the school as freshmen who graduate from that school after 4 or 6 years. So yes students who transfer to other institutions and ultimately graduate count against reported graduation rates. As do dropouts and lingerers.

whoop, up the butt it goes (silby), Wednesday, 9 November 2011 19:47 (2 years ago) Permalink

Also I guess that means that students who transfer in to an institution don't end up on the top-line graduation rate numbers anywhere.

whoop, up the butt it goes (silby), Wednesday, 9 November 2011 19:47 (2 years ago) Permalink

If you want a symbol of our time it is not the unemployed puppeteers it is the unemployed JDs

xpost

American Fear of Pranksterism (Ed), Wednesday, 9 November 2011 19:49 (2 years ago) Permalink

rly hate tyler cowen

BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Wednesday, 9 November 2011 19:51 (2 years ago) Permalink

If you want a symbol of our time it is not the unemployed puppeteers it is the unemployed JDs

totally

iatee, Wednesday, 9 November 2011 19:52 (2 years ago) Permalink

yeah I have a friend who is applying to law schools for the third year in a row, despite becoming increasingly aware that (a) he will hate it (b) he will be just as unemployed after he graduates as he is now

whoop, up the butt it goes (silby), Wednesday, 9 November 2011 19:55 (2 years ago) Permalink

he is an idiot

whoop, up the butt it goes (silby), Wednesday, 9 November 2011 19:55 (2 years ago) Permalink

tell him you read on the internet he should just be a paralegal and work for one of the new on-line firms

the green (Lamp), Wednesday, 9 November 2011 19:58 (2 years ago) Permalink

at least hell have a job in 10 years

the green (Lamp), Wednesday, 9 November 2011 19:58 (2 years ago) Permalink

it's really not worth telling him to do anything, I don't think he wants my advice. I think in reality he's just waiting for his grandmother to die so he can inherit some unfair amount of money.

whoop, up the butt it goes (silby), Wednesday, 9 November 2011 20:07 (2 years ago) Permalink

(also my advice is probably of dubious value given my decision to apply to PhD programs)

whoop, up the butt it goes (silby), Wednesday, 9 November 2011 20:11 (2 years ago) Permalink

yeah, I knew a person who completely failed across the board all her classes one semester, was given a mulligan

try doing that at a public school

there was also a story in the student newspaper about a student who stopped going to classes because she was playing WoW 16 hours a day

oh man I am so glad WoW didn't exist when I was in college

For us, if you failed 2+ classes in a semester, or failed a class in consecutive semesters, you had to take a mandatory year off and came back on academic probation. Interestingly, this happened to about... 75%? of my close social circle. (NOTE: If you are going to spend 3 consecutive weeks playing Asshole every night until 4 AM, make sure someone is funneling your class assignments to you, like I did.)

dense macabre (DJP), Wednesday, 9 November 2011 20:28 (2 years ago) Permalink

(also, all of the guys who had an enforced year off came back and completely kicked ass in their majors, while I basically did the bare minimum to graduate in 4 years; I would really like to do that section of my life over)

dense macabre (DJP), Wednesday, 9 November 2011 20:29 (2 years ago) Permalink

If you are going to spend 3 consecutive weeks playing Asshole every night until 4 AM

In that I am perhaps sheltered, this phrase raises questions.

Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 9 November 2011 20:40 (2 years ago) Permalink

haha - its a card game

the green (Lamp), Wednesday, 9 November 2011 20:46 (2 years ago) Permalink

lol

here are the basic rules, there are several variants: http://assholerules.com/

We always played with a President, Vice-President, Vice-Asshole and Asshole; President and Asshole swapped 2 cards, Vice-President and Vice-Asshole swapped one. Also, if you lost the Presidency you were automatically the Asshole in the next round. You could also order anyone below you in the hierarchy to drink at any time. We also didn't have special rules for the 3 or 4 cards; whoever had the 3 of clubs always started play.

A popular rule in our games was the Waterfall, where everyone would start chugging and you could only stop when the person directly above you in the hierarchy stopped; usually that meant someone in the middle would be torturing everyone below them.

dense macabre (DJP), Wednesday, 9 November 2011 20:47 (2 years ago) Permalink

srsly tho, discovering Asshole after playing Bullshit for years ruined several of my friends.

dense macabre (DJP), Wednesday, 9 November 2011 20:47 (2 years ago) Permalink

asshole is one of my fav card games ever tho i prob haven't played it in over a decade (fuck) and have never played it as a drinking game

J0rdan S., Wednesday, 9 November 2011 20:48 (2 years ago) Permalink

yeah bullshit is pretty lame in comparison

J0rdan S., Wednesday, 9 November 2011 20:48 (2 years ago) Permalink

at dan's college the president actually gets to be president when the game's over

iatee, Wednesday, 9 November 2011 20:49 (2 years ago) Permalink

I played an unbelievable amount of asshole in high school

max, Wednesday, 9 November 2011 20:50 (2 years ago) Permalink

yeah we played the hell out of it in high school but in college ppl only wanted to play kings cup

the green (Lamp), Wednesday, 9 November 2011 20:52 (2 years ago) Permalink

lol iatee

we also turned Cosmic Wimpout into a drinking game

no one wanted in on my attempts to make Lunch Money into a drinking game tho

dense macabre (DJP), Wednesday, 9 November 2011 20:52 (2 years ago) Permalink

(97% graduation rate, remember)

dense macabre (DJP), Wednesday, 9 November 2011 20:53 (2 years ago) Permalink

If you are going to spend 3 consecutive weeks playing Asshole every night until 4 AM

see I thought y'all were talking about the Gene Simmons album Asshole

fill up ass of emoticon fart (crüt), Wednesday, 9 November 2011 21:11 (2 years ago) Permalink

actually for us it would have been Beck or Morrissey

they did not often let me control the music

dense macabre (DJP), Wednesday, 9 November 2011 21:17 (2 years ago) Permalink

Asshole was known as Capitalism at my high school, didn't play a lot of card games in college.

whoop, up the butt it goes (silby), Wednesday, 9 November 2011 21:22 (2 years ago) Permalink

presumably because the internet had been invented by then

whoop, up the butt it goes (silby), Wednesday, 9 November 2011 21:25 (2 years ago) Permalink

wait what are we talking about?

whoop, up the butt it goes (silby), Wednesday, 9 November 2011 21:25 (2 years ago) Permalink

I too am in the belly of the beast but I wanna say that teaching at a public 4-year institution & seeing how the students perform / attend class gives special insight into why graduation rates are as low as they are at such institutions.

like, maybe college isn't worth it b/c it doesn't teach valuable skills---I disagree---but keep in mind how many people absolutely waste those years & think, maybe that's part of the problem too.

Euler, Wednesday, 9 November 2011 21:36 (2 years ago) Permalink

weve argued abt this before i think and im p sympathetic in general i mean i get enough students coming to office hours not having attended lectures in two months wanting me to help them solve half a semesters worth of problem sets cuz now its midterms but at the same time ive attended a fair share of lectures simply regurgitating information from assigned texts or that was garbled and unclear and thought 'i have to work tonight and finish a lab and a newspaper article to write and i really couldve used an extra hour of sleep, thanks a fucking lot' so

the green (Lamp), Wednesday, 9 November 2011 21:43 (2 years ago) Permalink

agreed that shitty teaching is a thing but it's not the only thing here. I mean the cynical take that "we fuck off 'cos they fuck off 'cos we fuck off..." is wrong...I think?

I read threads on ILX occasionally (less these days 'cos life is nuts!) in which there's the sentiment of "lol college, I really fucked off" & it seems like around here, there's nothing to be ashamed of in saying that, & I think that's indicative of the problem. I feel very out of touch on here sometimes.

I was reading something recently that suggested that the problem is that some people just don't have the skills to work super hard, & that it's bad that our culture expects everyone to be able to do that. & I think that's a terrible concession.

Euler, Wednesday, 9 November 2011 21:49 (2 years ago) Permalink

sometimes there are actually no good reasons to wok hard

like if someone is graduating from your college and not planning on grad school the difference between them getting an A and a C is pretty minimal. i mean my gf graduated from an ivy league school w/ like a 4.3 and the only field where that really would 'matter' is finance. nobody else really gave a shit. so I mean it's completely rational for a lot of people to not work that hard.

iatee, Wednesday, 9 November 2011 21:54 (2 years ago) Permalink

haha wok hard

iatee, Wednesday, 9 November 2011 21:54 (2 years ago) Permalink

wok hard pay hard

the MMMM cult (La Lechera), Wednesday, 9 November 2011 21:56 (2 years ago) Permalink

ive certainly noticed that the public university i work for does a much better job of treating students as adults and that, while support services are there, its up to students to seek help and make the initial effort, as opposed to having faculty/admin intervene and guide students the way they wld @ a top tier private school (ime). im sort of ambivalent abt this, there are obvious advantages to both but i think ambitious, dedicated students from public schools probably graduate stronger people w/ better overall knowledge and skills

my big problem is: there still seems to be a declining correlation btw the work that students do at a university and their job prospects after? i think im probably exaggerating this since most evidence says otherwise (haha) and that complicates things. the fundamental/systemic issues are still there no matter how diligent an undergrad you are i guess

ive had this argument w/friends irl too: when i was an undergrad (half a decade ago now!) i was p driven, i played sports and wrote for the newspaper and did charity work and worked at a job in my field and basically made sure i had the sort of resume that wld get me job afterwards, as much as i was able. and it worked, i had a job waiting for me @ graduation and when i left finance i got another well-paying job right away. and i think on an individual level these things matter. but if everyone does them then they sort of end up losing their value, like an A- at princeton or w/e. i also think its worth asking whether some amount of goofing around isnt useful/part of the point? idk...

the green (Lamp), Wednesday, 9 November 2011 22:02 (2 years ago) Permalink

I wok hard every day

ASPIE Rocky (dayo), Wednesday, 9 November 2011 22:15 (2 years ago) Permalink

another thing - outside of grad school what jobs ask for your transcript? almost none! even fairly official jobs usually believe you. as long as that's the case it really is more logical for someone at euler's school to just fuck around and then put a 3.9 on their resume.

iatee, Wednesday, 9 November 2011 22:18 (2 years ago) Permalink

like if someone is graduating from your college and not planning on grad school the difference between them getting an A and a C is pretty minimal. i mean my gf graduated from an ivy league school w/ like a 4.3 and the only field where that really would 'matter' is finance. nobody else really gave a shit. so I mean it's completely rational for a lot of people to not work that hard.

― iatee, Wednesday, November 9, 2011 4:54 PM (20 minutes ago) Bookmark

one thing you hear a lot is that your gpa only matters insofar as helping you get that first sweet job out of college, then everything else thereafter is gonna be based on work experience. which kinda sucks.

also sucks that 'time gaps' in your resume are so frowned upon - so what if I decided to take a few years off to 'find myself' or w/e? well fuck you, some other hotshot asshole spent those three years busting his balls at mckinsey or got an MBA or something

ASPIE Rocky (dayo), Wednesday, 9 November 2011 22:18 (2 years ago) Permalink

smoke weed everyday

puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Wednesday, 9 November 2011 22:20 (2 years ago) Permalink

I'm not talking about a little bit of goofing, though; & anyway Lamp you clearly know what I'm talking about.

eh this is a topic I can get p right-wing tbh, at least wrt meritocracy. I'm inclined to think that "we're" going to get a lot out of students who are driven, & not much out of those who aren't. I favor a big safety net b/c I think it's bullshit for a culture as rich as ours for people to be hungry or lack shelter, & for us to have unequal educational opportunities at the elementary level; but for kids who fuck around...yeah, I oughta keep my trap shut here, b/c I'm pos it won't go over well.

or in other words: I taught Plato's Republic this term & I liked it

Euler, Wednesday, 9 November 2011 22:22 (2 years ago) Permalink

euler what do you believe the point of life is

puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Wednesday, 9 November 2011 22:23 (2 years ago) Permalink

obviously we should send all the poets out to the Great Wasteland beyond the republic's walls

ASPIE Rocky (dayo), Wednesday, 9 November 2011 22:24 (2 years ago) Permalink

if someone "already" has the skills they'd need w/o college, then I dunno, lie about it, what's it matter to society? (besides Kantian objections against lying blah blah blah)

but o/w if someone can make it through a 4-year degree program with decent grades then they've shown they can handle some amount of grinding & that's a basic req & maybe the only basic req for the kinds of shitty office work that unfocused college grads end up (until now).

Euler, Wednesday, 9 November 2011 22:25 (2 years ago) Permalink

the point of life is to know the form of the good, duh

Euler, Wednesday, 9 November 2011 22:25 (2 years ago) Permalink

IMO Euler, a lot of what you are describing is related to the deliberate infantilization of western civilization and the blatant immaturity of ppl participating in post-secondary education. I know I was deeply unhappy during large parts of my academic career and that leaked hardcore into how much time I put into my classes. I would have benefited greatly from taking some time to live in "the real world" to acclimate myself to what my skills would be used for and to connect some type of tangible real-world goal to my academic studies, which were basically an extended prep course for grad school (of my college friends, I am literally THE ONLY ONE who didn't get a graduate degree).

Tie a system that better prepares students for what it actually means to be a college student to better, stronger support networks (and it really terrifies me to think that there are schools out there less supportive than Harvard when I was there, as the prevailing sense was that unless you were a professor's pet student or famous, you were thrown to the wolves) and I can't help but assume that graduation rates would increase sharply.

sex-poodle Al Gore (DJP), Wednesday, 9 November 2011 22:29 (2 years ago) Permalink

failing that, turn drinking games into a major

sex-poodle Al Gore (DJP), Wednesday, 9 November 2011 22:30 (2 years ago) Permalink

I majored in being the Asshole President

ASPIE Rocky (dayo), Wednesday, 9 November 2011 22:32 (2 years ago) Permalink

a system that better prepares students for what it actually means to be a college student

This seems like a biggie to me xp

whoop, up the butt it goes (silby), Wednesday, 9 November 2011 22:33 (2 years ago) Permalink

it is very hard for me to think about education in america in any serious way, a lot of my friends are teachers now, and it is just still so hard to think about

puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Wednesday, 9 November 2011 22:33 (2 years ago) Permalink

and I don't even like america, conceptually

puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Wednesday, 9 November 2011 22:34 (2 years ago) Permalink

here is a random facebook status on my feed:

Taught my kids about how unions work today by having them all say "FUCK YOU" to me at once.

puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Wednesday, 9 November 2011 22:35 (2 years ago) Permalink

xp how can you not like the concept of America? it's got the American revolution and presidents with sideburns and Intrepidity and Innovation and Railroads!

whoop, up the butt it goes (silby), Wednesday, 9 November 2011 22:35 (2 years ago) Permalink

another thing - outside of grad school what jobs ask for your transcript? almost none! even fairly official jobs usually believe you. as long as that's the case it really is more logical for someone at euler's school to just fuck around and then put a 3.9 on their resume.

― iatee, Wednesday, November 9, 2011 2:18 PM (2 minutes ago) [IP: 64.61.128.66: New York, United States]

not true. every public school teaching job asks for a transcript.

free banana man! free banana man! (remy bean), Wednesday, 9 November 2011 22:36 (2 years ago) Permalink

a system that better prepares students for what it actually means to be a college student

This seems like a biggie to me xp

Yeah I mean, I basically went through most of high school doing my work either during class or on the bus ride to school the day it was due; what this translated to is a work ethic as an adult where I wait until just past the last possible moment to do a task, then cram mightily and kill myself to pull heroic measures to get it done. I never actually learned how to finish things early or plan out my workload!

sex-poodle Al Gore (DJP), Wednesday, 9 November 2011 22:36 (2 years ago) Permalink

Me neither! I tried to make that a personal goal for myself in my last two years of college (which just ended heh, I act like it was forever ago) but I didn't make tons of progress on that front. (It is hard to learn how to do your best work when your halfhearted work gets good-to-excellent feedback. I finally hit a bit of a wall with that tactic during college but more importantly I realized that I did actually want to be proud of myself.)

whoop, up the butt it goes (silby), Wednesday, 9 November 2011 22:39 (2 years ago) Permalink

yeah, I oughta keep my trap shut here, b/c I'm pos it won't go over well.

naw you can call us lazy :D

theres this weird thing were like, it seems p unfair that a le rosey alum who barely slumped her way through an creative writing degree at hampshire can land a sweet job in wealth mgmt after she graduates and plenty of other more qualified applicants are serving coffee but the le rosey girl is probably a better fit and if i was running pcs id hire her too. 'merit' is tricky thing i guess?

the green (Lamp), Wednesday, 9 November 2011 22:39 (2 years ago) Permalink

that's well-put & wise. My non-trad students are def better prepared for college work compared with similar trad students of similar abilities & talents (though less well-prepared than the best trad students, of whom we get very few anyway since they all go off to fancy private colleges like the one I went to).

but I dunno about connecting to tangible real-world goals of academic studies. I'm with that if it means: most majors should assume the bulk of their students aren't going to grad school & structure the curriculum accordingly. my department's in the process of working on that.

so I mean yeah: some of this is the fault of bad organization at the university level. & some of it's the fault of bad students. & those are intermixed! but "blatant immaturity" isn't the fault of university faculty.

also I wish we had a way of funding public education that didn't depend on graduating anyone b/c obv some people who go to college don't deserve a college degree but we also need them as "consumers" & this affects dean-level pressure toward grade inflation. it really sucks.

Euler, Wednesday, 9 November 2011 22:40 (2 years ago) Permalink

er xp to DJP a while back

Euler, Wednesday, 9 November 2011 22:40 (2 years ago) Permalink

Yeah I mean, I basically went through most of high school doing my work either during class or on the bus ride to school the day it was due; what this translated to is a work ethic as an adult where I wait until just past the last possible moment to do a task, then cram mightily and kill myself to pull heroic measures to get it done. I never actually learned how to finish things early or plan out my workload!

― sex-poodle Al Gore (DJP), Wednesday, November 9, 2011 5:36 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark

lol otm. people really should be forced to work at mcdonalds for a few years before going to college

ASPIE Rocky (dayo), Wednesday, 9 November 2011 22:40 (2 years ago) Permalink

wait there are Hampshire alums working in finance? xp

whoop, up the butt it goes (silby), Wednesday, 9 November 2011 22:41 (2 years ago) Permalink

i dont think its controversial to wish that kids who didnt work hard worked harder? or cared more? i think a lot of people in this thread might suggest that those kids would be better off not going to college, at least not at that point in their lives, given that theyre a) not really learning anything and b) probably putting themselves into debt. (this is all in a perfect world, where a college degree signified something more specific than "employable")

like in my plan the lazy kids would be working on farms. would get the laze right out of em

max, Wednesday, 9 November 2011 22:42 (2 years ago) Permalink

tho come to think of it my friend's evil ex girlfriend spent four years at Hampshire designing her own actuarial science major and is now an actuary no foolin

whoop, up the butt it goes (silby), Wednesday, 9 November 2011 22:42 (2 years ago) Permalink

'actually an actuary' is the name of her forthcoming autobiography

ASPIE Rocky (dayo), Wednesday, 9 November 2011 22:44 (2 years ago) Permalink

or the name of a lesser-known Tennessee Williams play

whoop, up the butt it goes (silby), Wednesday, 9 November 2011 22:46 (2 years ago) Permalink

like in my plan the lazy kids would be working on farms. would get the laze right out of em

― max, Wednesday, November 9, 2011 5:42 PM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark

this is basically the premise of deep springs

ASPIE Rocky (dayo), Wednesday, 9 November 2011 22:47 (2 years ago) Permalink

yeah that's awesome for the 26 dudes who get to go there. Also I keep wanting someone to do an expose of Deep Springs having like weekly mandatory orgies or something

whoop, up the butt it goes (silby), Wednesday, 9 November 2011 22:48 (2 years ago) Permalink

because come on

whoop, up the butt it goes (silby), Wednesday, 9 November 2011 22:48 (2 years ago) Permalink

i think a lot of people in this thread might suggest that those kids would be better off not going to college

yeah, basically

the green (Lamp), Wednesday, 9 November 2011 22:49 (2 years ago) Permalink

or only to college later in life maybe

Euler, Wednesday, 9 November 2011 22:52 (2 years ago) Permalink

college should start at age like 26 probably

max, Wednesday, 9 November 2011 22:57 (2 years ago) Permalink

i would be so much better at college now than i was back then

max, Wednesday, 9 November 2011 22:57 (2 years ago) Permalink

yeah i appreciated the last two years of my undergrad way more than the first two and i'm actually excited to be in school now

plax (ico), Thursday, 10 November 2011 02:08 (2 years ago) Permalink

euler's tirade against the lazy generation ignores what I said earlier- most of his students have absolutely nothing to gain from working very hard in his course! (other than personal betterment - but surprisesurprise that's not why most people are paying tuition)

if the top 20% of his class were guaranteed good jobs - similar to the situation at a lot of law schools - there'd be incentive to turn in the best goddamn paper you could write. (watched 'the paper chase' a few nights ago...good movie)

right now there are two groups who are gonna do well:
a. do really really really care about plato
b. want to go to grad school or one of a handful of careers where yr gpa matters

the rest prob want white collar jobs and an A+ in your class is really not gonna directly affect their prospects at one. there's really no reason not for them to be out having fun. maybe they should care about plato cause plato is pretty interesting but that's not why they're there. they're not lazy, they're rational w/r/t the value of their time.

iatee, Thursday, 10 November 2011 03:39 (2 years ago) Permalink

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/college_guide/feature/college_dropout_factories.php?page=all

i basically had no idea there were tertiary institutions anywhere in the world with < 50% graduation rates until i read this.

caek, Thursday, 10 November 2011 12:33 (2 years ago) Permalink

I wanna see the list of dropout factories that went with that article because based on the comments they accidentally put Concordia College in MN on it

sex-poodle Al Gore (DJP), Thursday, 10 November 2011 14:34 (2 years ago) Permalink

iatee that's nonsense: they're not rational with their time, they're fucking around, playing video games, getting wasted, watching tv. that's rational? for fuck's sake they could learn how to write! or fucking scrub dishes, if they're not going to learn to use their minds.

I mean if your point is that most people don't want to be part of the ~knowledge economy~ then fine; but I gather you're prepared to see massive wage drops compared to now? if I'm a business owner I don't want to pay some know-nothing good coin to enter data into a computer; I want someone with ideas & energy to carry those out. & you don't develop those playing xbox or watching Jersey Shore while cased out on Schlitz.

Euler, Thursday, 10 November 2011 14:50 (2 years ago) Permalink

Listen, when you work as an office drone, having ideas will kill ya.

It means why you gotta be a montague? (Laurel), Thursday, 10 November 2011 15:01 (2 years ago) Permalink

getting wasted and interacting w/ modern technology is prob more related to the life of a modern office worker than reading about plato

iatee, Thursday, 10 November 2011 15:10 (2 years ago) Permalink

I'm sorry but you expect everyone to be steve jobs or something, yes I am prepared for massive wage drops and your field is included in that btw

iatee, Thursday, 10 November 2011 15:13 (2 years ago) Permalink

yeah that's just a failure of imagination, on your part & on the part of so-called college students today. no wonder everyone's depressed these days!

i.e. tl;dr; goodbye America

Euler, Thursday, 10 November 2011 15:14 (2 years ago) Permalink

I'd like some evidence that hard-working philosophy majors have been something that contributed new *ideas and energy* to the american economy, iirc they just become lawyers

iatee, Thursday, 10 November 2011 15:16 (2 years ago) Permalink

why are you hung up on philosophy majors

sex-poodle Al Gore (DJP), Thursday, 10 November 2011 15:17 (2 years ago) Permalink

cause euler's a philosophy prof complaining about his lazy students

iatee, Thursday, 10 November 2011 15:17 (2 years ago) Permalink

ah, so you're using the rhetorical stratagem known as "being a dick"

sex-poodle Al Gore (DJP), Thursday, 10 November 2011 15:18 (2 years ago) Permalink

i feel like ive lost the thread somewhere, what are the two sides of this argument

max, Thursday, 10 November 2011 15:19 (2 years ago) Permalink

you could start with "what do philosophy majors do" About 5,940,000 results (0.21 seconds)

& yes this oughtn't just be about philosophy; I think it's nuts to say it's rational for people to waste their time rather than work hard at learning (& yes I'm aware that I'm on this message board right now rather than writing today's lecture but this is a kind of meta-work for me right now as I try to sort out how to handle my classes today).

Euler, Thursday, 10 November 2011 15:22 (2 years ago) Permalink

euler: our generation is lazy / has a failure of imagination / needs ~ideas and energy~, his evidence is some people in his class go out and party and play xbox
me: sorry dude they don't really have any reason to care about your class they just want a BA, that is why they are there, this is nothing new btw, they might not have been there 30 years ago when they coulda gotten a decent job w/o a BA

iatee, Thursday, 10 November 2011 15:22 (2 years ago) Permalink

as I understood the argument, iatee's claiming that it's more rational for future "office drones" (his expression) to fuck around than to work hard at university

I disagree

Euler, Thursday, 10 November 2011 15:24 (2 years ago) Permalink

I think "office drone" may actually have been my expression but carry on.

It means why you gotta be a montague? (Laurel), Thursday, 10 November 2011 15:25 (2 years ago) Permalink

making personal connections + being sociable is more important to your future job prospects than being rly good at writing papers on socrates

another one of those 'true value of college' things

xp

iatee, Thursday, 10 November 2011 15:25 (2 years ago) Permalink

also iatee you act as though as a BA has no value aside from signaling which I guess is your "conceit" on this thread but I'm saying: it's not just that you have a BA, but what you learned getting it, that gives you value. are you saying that you wish students could just go to class & give minimal effort & get great jobs w/o investing intellectual effort? because if so, I think I understand what you're longing for, where you're really coming from, at least.

Euler, Thursday, 10 November 2011 15:27 (2 years ago) Permalink

Great jobs?? I think they'd be okay with just getting JOBS remotely in their field of study.

It means why you gotta be a montague? (Laurel), Thursday, 10 November 2011 15:29 (2 years ago) Permalink

Euler's point, though, is that getting a job in your field of study when you never actually studied it is... somewhat entitled.

sex-poodle Al Gore (DJP), Thursday, 10 November 2011 15:31 (2 years ago) Permalink

right; he said decent jobs, that's fine too: minimal intellectual effort, decent jobs, that's the dream that this country was founded on, right?

is this just longing for blue collar America, get a factory job making solid buck? or do you want the jobs of the 90s, white collar management / consulting type work for the minimal effort folks?

xp DJP otm

Euler, Thursday, 10 November 2011 15:33 (2 years ago) Permalink

this has nothing to do with what I 'wish', we're looking at the situation irl for your students

I think a BA has value beyond signaling, just more personal-fulfillment type value than value that'd directly translate to the workplace. generally. it's a good experience and people should make the most of it. I loved college, sometimes I think I'm giving the impression that I didn't.

but someone who's there entirely for signaling reasons is not crazy or even necessarily lazy. it's not entirely irrational to not care about that personal-fulfillment aspect!

xp

euler teaches in a field where there is literally no job in the field beyond teaching more people about the field.

xp

iatee, Thursday, 10 November 2011 15:34 (2 years ago) Permalink

I think there's a distinction between "great" jobs and just jobs...people at the top part of the field will obv be those who excelled in their studies, but they will burn out and die if they have to do all the immeasurably boring and repetitive grunt-work done at the bottom of their field, so those jobs are structurally slated for those less ambitious, less studious.

I'm on hold w my dental insurance so I'm a little fragmented but that's roughly where I was going.

It means why you gotta be a montague? (Laurel), Thursday, 10 November 2011 15:37 (2 years ago) Permalink

It's not merely personal fulfillment, though; you can actually develop skills! like how to write clearly! how to work with statistics! how to plan & set up & run & interpret experiments!

iatee has no idea what majors in my field go on to do but if he wants to do the search I recommended he'll see

what you're calling IRL: as though that's independent of the attitudes toward learning & accomplishment amongst students! what you're calling "the real world", I'm calling a failure of imagination. likely the truth is somewhere between but I think it's a lot closer to me than you.

Euler, Thursday, 10 November 2011 15:38 (2 years ago) Permalink

is this just longing for blue collar America, get a factory job making solid buck? or do you want the jobs of the 90s, white collar management / consulting type work for the minimal effort folks?

I'm not doing any longing I'm just trying to understand what's going on in the world. I don't see someone working hard in your class as something that's gonna affect their economic future in a significant way. why not play xbox? they're there for a piece of paper w/ important signaling power not because they think it's worth paying tuition to hear you talk about plato. as long as that's the case, you don't get to complain about their work ethic.

iatee, Thursday, 10 November 2011 15:38 (2 years ago) Permalink

we don't have to write-off an education in the humanities - we could work on having more employers see the advantage in hiring people who can think critically

but there is def major grade inflation in the humanities, hard to see if a lit major got her degree the right way or by writing about how much she really sympathized with molly bloom

ASPIE Rocky (dayo), Thursday, 10 November 2011 15:40 (2 years ago) Permalink

iatee's approaching this from the other side of 'what does the job market look like/what does it require.' you can obv argue for the value of a good education in and of itself without any consideration of whether or not it'll get you a job. then the question becomes, what value should we pay for an education in and of itself. $40k a year? seems high.

ASPIE Rocky (dayo), Thursday, 10 November 2011 15:42 (2 years ago) Permalink

again I think a good contrast is law school where how well you do *very very directly* affects your economic future. and people work pretty hard! you can argue that there's a difference cause that's a professional program but really it isn't in the way we teach law.

iatee, Thursday, 10 November 2011 15:50 (2 years ago) Permalink

I don't really know where iatee is coming from, actually. What he's calling "what's going on in the world", as if it's an immutable fact, I think is wrong. If students are putting in minimal intellectual effort, then why should an employer want to hire them?

maybe you just had lousy professors or a silly major? I don't really get the resentment here.

Euler, Thursday, 10 November 2011 15:55 (2 years ago) Permalink

his point is that students do sometimes put in a great deal of intellectual effort at their philosophy majors but graduate and face the same job prospects as someone who cased a 6 pack of schlitz while playing battlefield i.e. 0

ASPIE Rocky (dayo), Thursday, 10 November 2011 15:57 (2 years ago) Permalink

wait euler are you implying that unemployment is high because kids dont get good grades in college?

max, Thursday, 10 November 2011 15:58 (2 years ago) Permalink

I know you live somewhere where panera will pay somebody $20 to slice bread but there are many parts of the country, where fresh grads graduate and they can't get jobs that are commensurate with how hard they worked in college!

ASPIE Rocky (dayo), Thursday, 10 November 2011 15:59 (2 years ago) Permalink

it's not about grades, because of grade inflation. if we had realistic grading & mediocre students got Cs, then maybe grades would be enough. as it is, grade-hungry students without any appetite for knowledge or self-motivated drive end up striking out because what can they contribute to this economy? maybe in the 90s just showing up was enough. it's not now.

does that mean I'm wishing everyone were Steve Jobs? no, just come to class! do your homework! come to my office with questions! ask questions in class!

I'm probably just repeating now what DJP said yesterday concerning the infantilization of Western culture.

Euler, Thursday, 10 November 2011 16:06 (2 years ago) Permalink

?? how does a philosophy major differentiate between grade-hungry students and those with an "appetite for knowledge" or who have "self-motivated drive"?

ASPIE Rocky (dayo), Thursday, 10 November 2011 16:08 (2 years ago) Permalink

euler, in terms of employment prospects/"investment", how does a philosophy major justify itself?

ASPIE Rocky (dayo), Thursday, 10 November 2011 16:08 (2 years ago) Permalink

as it is, grade-hungry students without any appetite for knowledge or self-motivated drive end up striking out because what can they contribute to this economy?

heh, this is a pretty.... unique explanation for unemployment

max, Thursday, 10 November 2011 16:10 (2 years ago) Permalink

again I loved going to college and I went basically for free, I'm not personally bitter about how things went, but you should check the 99% tumblr if you want evidence that there are about a million people who are very disillusioned. the most disillusioned are the ones who *did work hard and don't see the fruits of their labor*. maybe they worked hard ~the wrong way~ but if there's any evidence w/r/t what ~working hard the wrong way~ is, it'd point to working hard during your 'mostly a signal' BA.

the fact that people in your generation are so incapable of understanding how the general dynamic has shifted so violently is amazing! and sad!

I'm not sure how you miss this again and again: employers don't want to hire lazy people but at the same time don't judge work ethic based on how they did in your class. internships, jobs, outside of class stuff generally gets more attention. that is pretty good evidence that the market doesn't currently place much value in 'how hard you worked in class' and considers it mostly just a hurdle to jump over.

xp

iatee, Thursday, 10 November 2011 16:11 (2 years ago) Permalink

and again, a clear contrast is the law market. that's a market w/ a ridiculous dynamics for its own reasons (and again a place where this generations has things so, so, so much worse) but it's a job market that directly rewards working hard in class.

iatee, Thursday, 10 November 2011 16:14 (2 years ago) Permalink

I don't think a philosophy degree is worthless btw I actually was accepted to college as one! didn't go w/ it tho.

iatee, Thursday, 10 November 2011 16:17 (2 years ago) Permalink

good grief it's not "how hard you worked in class" that I'm talking about, but rather: did you make anything of that effort? do you see what you majored in as constructing some skill set that you can use to do work you value enough to warrant doing it, & that employers warrant? philo majors are doing fine enough (ours are, at least those who haven't sleepwalked through their degrees, & I'm not talking about service jobs).

keep in mind if it were up to me I'd eliminate all degrees except math, philosophy, & maybe physics and/or biology. I value skill-teaching over content-teaching, & think undergrads should have a pretty good idea after their first couple of years of what sort of work they envision. I think faculty & universities generally should help undergrads with this, but ultimately it's the student's responsibility to think through this for herself, & if she's too young to do so, that's not our problem.

Euler, Thursday, 10 November 2011 16:17 (2 years ago) Permalink

you can use to do work you value enough to warrant doing it, & that employers warrant?

do you see that there can be a pretty big disconnect between the first half and the second half of this sentence?

and your viewpoint begs the question - the person who is self-aware enough to do that in college doesn't need college - she is steve jobs!

ASPIE Rocky (dayo), Thursday, 10 November 2011 16:20 (2 years ago) Permalink

there's a disconnect between the first & second half mainly because we teach people to ~follow their dreams~ when thinking about careers / majors. Which is a mistake. Follow the money.

my view doesn't beg that question: I take it that students have some feeling for what they value, & we can help them shape that into practical career choices. If we did our job right, of course.

Euler, Thursday, 10 November 2011 16:22 (2 years ago) Permalink

so euler your big theory of the economy right now is "recent college grads are unemployed because they dont know what they value and havent developed skill sets because they were lazy in college"?

max, Thursday, 10 November 2011 16:24 (2 years ago) Permalink

okay, so what employers value the skill of talking intelligently about plato

ASPIE Rocky (dayo), Thursday, 10 November 2011 16:24 (2 years ago) Permalink

I mean, under your view the logical step would be for high school grads to jump directly into employment after graduation - what better way to learn the skills that employers value than actually going to work for that employer and being forcefed those skills directly?

ASPIE Rocky (dayo), Thursday, 10 November 2011 16:25 (2 years ago) Permalink

nobody is doing 'fine enough', the fact that you can even think that is astounding. I don't know where exactly you live and maybe the white collar job market is (in the short-run btw) a little better there but I personally know 'hard working' philosophy majors from name schools who are struggling. (I also know some who are famous bloggers otoh.)

xp

iatee, Thursday, 10 November 2011 16:27 (2 years ago) Permalink

and how are employers to know which professors are evaluating their students using the right metrics? how can they differentiate an A in your class (given, presumably, because the student demonstrated "skills that employers would warrant") over another student who got an A from another philosophy prof (given idk for sucking the prof's dick after class)?

ASPIE Rocky (dayo), Thursday, 10 November 2011 16:28 (2 years ago) Permalink

a few things

- its probably p hard to isolate the impact that 'getting good grades' has from all the other good things ppl who are going to work hard at college do but it seems p obv that the ppl who are working hard have a better chance at a getting a good job, being 'successful' &c

- there are direct benefits to good grades which iatee is kinda hand-waving at (and lots of big co.s ask for transcripts now even in stuff like advertising/pr) but there are clear indirect benefits (like impressing yr professors haha)

- it also seems probable (at least ime) that even the ppl working really hard are making efficiency decisions i.e. i am going to work exactly as hard as need to get a B+, keep an A average, impress this professor to get a good letter of rec

- but lots of students are bad at making efficiency decisions (haha thats why theyre there in the first place) and while there may be lots of things that are just as influential in finding a job postgrad (internships, creative extracurr, frat parties) its hard to say these are either strictly better or need to be independent of 'good grades'

- while macro factors are really whats going to fuck u, might as well control the micro factors amirite?

and a butt (Lamp), Thursday, 10 November 2011 16:32 (2 years ago) Permalink

because grades don't mean anything anymore? what matters are letters of recommendation that highlight specific skills & accomplishments of students: "this student can use statistical reasoning to shed light on current debates on public policy, and can write up her results clearly; see attached short writing sample for details of her work, which you can expect to be applicable to your company on day 1 for the following reasons". this takes faculty who have their heads out of their ivory tower asses & obv mine is partly there but I've worked enough in "the real world" & keep up with friends out there to have a pretty decent idea of what's needed, & what's not.

but I think there's a disconnect here & I'm gonna have to drop out---this lecture is coming along but I can't afford the distraction anymore. It's interesting!

actually it looks like I'm gonna come to NYC in Feb or March---could talk these things out then? not sure how long I'll be around & I'm there for work as usual but it could be fun to hang out.

Euler, Thursday, 10 November 2011 16:34 (2 years ago) Permalink

heh letters of rec are written just as much for signaling purposes as they are written as substantive evaluations of a student

ASPIE Rocky (dayo), Thursday, 10 November 2011 16:35 (2 years ago) Permalink

- while macro factors are really whats going to fuck u, might as well control the micro factors amirite?

this is fair but its aggravating to have euler here on this thread blaming the shitty postgrad job market on the students for not working hard enough and not like i dont know..... low aggregate demand

max, Thursday, 10 November 2011 16:36 (2 years ago) Permalink

I mean, under your view the logical step would be for high school grads to jump directly into employment after graduation

they should!! the fact that we have a system that discourages it is terrible!

haha this thread is making late for a lab im running in 20 mins...

and a butt (Lamp), Thursday, 10 November 2011 16:38 (2 years ago) Permalink

last word: my gf has a friend who is philosophy phd from a relatively good school and is now in the shitty as fuck job market - is this somebody who didn't work hard enough at philosophy?

Euler NYC fap sounds good!

iatee, Thursday, 10 November 2011 16:40 (2 years ago) Permalink

I do think there's more disconnect than there should be between college and the "real world", but it's hard to think of ways to solve it. Should we stop teaching things like philosophy and teach only marketing and Powerpoint? I don't think so. Maybe there should be graduation requirements tied to "real world" experience, or maybe people from the realms of business/nonprofits/government should be invited to campus to talk with students about what skills they think are useful or to teach courses? I don't know what the best answer is.

o. nate, Thursday, 10 November 2011 16:42 (2 years ago) Permalink

ok cool I'm out on this now---my actually pretty good students await---but the academic job market is a totally different thing than what I'm talking about, batshit though I may be.

Euler, Thursday, 10 November 2011 16:42 (2 years ago) Permalink

i know english is not the rigorous righteous discipline that philosophy is but i know about 10 english phds from an excellent school who are scraping by, jobless, some of them 3 years out from their ph.d. at this point. these people were crazy academic go-getters all their lives. i have to admit i always take arguments like Euler's really personally. i guess it's all their faults because lol English.

horseshoe, Thursday, 10 November 2011 16:42 (2 years ago) Permalink

they should!! the fact that we have a system that discourages it is terrible!

haha this thread is making late for a lab im running in 20 mins...

― and a butt (Lamp), Thursday, November 10, 2011 11:38 AM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark

yeah, they should! unfortunately america's graduating way more high schoolers than it knows what to do with so they're tightening the sieves, degree creep &c.

ASPIE Rocky (dayo), Thursday, 10 November 2011 16:42 (2 years ago) Permalink

xp wait we were only talking about the academic job market all this time and not the job market in general? *facepalm*

ASPIE Rocky (dayo), Thursday, 10 November 2011 16:43 (2 years ago) Permalink

"this student can use statistical reasoning to shed light on current debates on public policy, and can write up her results clearly"

haha this is killing me. "this student can dress neatly and type 80wpm." "this student can discuss proust without making a jackass of themselves."

s.clover, Thursday, 10 November 2011 16:43 (2 years ago) Permalink

i know english is not the rigorous righteous discipline that philosophy is but i know about 10 english phds from an excellent school who are scraping by, jobless, some of them 3 years out from their ph.d. at this point. these people were crazy academic go-getters all their lives. i have to admit i always take arguments like Euler's really personally. i guess it's all their faults because lol English.

― horseshoe, Thursday, November 10, 2011 11:42 AM (30 seconds ago) Bookmark

heh I will remember always attending the english ph.d info session at my school and the first words out of the mouth of the prof running it was "only 50% of our grads actually get jobs"

ASPIE Rocky (dayo), Thursday, 10 November 2011 16:44 (2 years ago) Permalink

one of the best decision in my life so far was not going into grad school for english right after graduation

still i ryde english till i die

max, Thursday, 10 November 2011 16:46 (2 years ago) Permalink

i am so glad you didn't do that, max <3

horseshoe, Thursday, 10 November 2011 16:46 (2 years ago) Permalink

one of the best decision in my life so far was not going into grad school for english right after graduation

You were a wise person. (I might have done similar if I hadn't received the fellowship, which couldn't be deferred.)

Ned Raggett, Thursday, 10 November 2011 16:46 (2 years ago) Permalink

worth keeping in mind that "business" is currently the #1 undergrad major (which if it's a choice between that and math/philosophy for undergrads then imo Euler Is Right And Don't Even Get Me Started), and those guys aren't getting jobs at a notably better rate than English grads so.

http://graphicsweb.wsj.com/documents/NILF1111/#term=

all yoga attacks are fire based (rogermexico.), Thursday, 10 November 2011 16:47 (2 years ago) Permalink

tbh i didnt really make that decision, i belly flopped on my thesis and the decision was made for me, so actually it was me being lazy/unmotivated that led me to have an irl job and not be staring down the academic market!

max, Thursday, 10 November 2011 16:47 (2 years ago) Permalink

looks like i just disproved euler

max, Thursday, 10 November 2011 16:48 (2 years ago) Permalink

shit all the triangles are gonna disintegrate

ASPIE Rocky (dayo), Thursday, 10 November 2011 16:48 (2 years ago) Permalink

and i'm talking about the academic job market because these english phds are older than the millenials but kind of in the same boat economically because they delayed their career arcs because of grad school and inherited this horrible economy

horseshoe, Thursday, 10 November 2011 16:50 (2 years ago) Permalink

- its probably p hard to isolate the impact that 'getting good grades' has from all the other good things ppl who are going to work hard at college do but it seems p obv that the ppl who are working hard have a better chance at a getting a good job, being 'successful' &c

correlation vs. causation q

- there are direct benefits to good grades which iatee is kinda hand-waving at (and lots of big co.s ask for transcripts now even in stuff like advertising/pr) but there are clear indirect benefits (like impressing yr professors haha)

in the not so distant future I think everything (grades, job history, everything) will have to be verified online via some linkedin type system, that is my prediction. maybe some peoples' 2.3 gpas will haunt them more in that future?

- while macro factors are really whats going to fuck u, might as well control the micro factors amirite?

this is otm but at the same time euler was making macro comments, ya know?

iatee, Thursday, 10 November 2011 16:51 (2 years ago) Permalink

oh the humanities job market

Mr. Que, Thursday, 10 November 2011 16:51 (2 years ago) Permalink

so it's about the humanities job market but it's also about the fact that it's hard to transition into another field because of the economy.

horseshoe, Thursday, 10 November 2011 16:52 (2 years ago) Permalink

ok cool I'm out on this now---my actually pretty good students await---but the academic job market is a totally different thing than what I'm talking about, batshit though I may be.

the academic job market is pretty similar to what's happening everywhere else, it's just ahead of the curve

iatee, Thursday, 10 November 2011 16:52 (2 years ago) Permalink

i was told by an adviser 3? years ago that i would have no trouble finding a great job, she was a big fan of me dropping out and it's really hard for me not to feel like it's my fault that hasn't happened. i guess that's why the Euler argument rankles.

horseshoe, Thursday, 10 November 2011 16:53 (2 years ago) Permalink

it might have been four years ago jesus christ

horseshoe, Thursday, 10 November 2011 16:53 (2 years ago) Permalink

not enough plato, i think

max, Thursday, 10 November 2011 16:54 (2 years ago) Permalink

haha i know, right? philosophy ph.d. students were always seriously telling me a version of that! english grad students lack reasoning ability, apparently

horseshoe, Thursday, 10 November 2011 16:55 (2 years ago) Permalink

skim phaedrus tonight and youll have an even better job the next morning

max, Thursday, 10 November 2011 16:55 (2 years ago) Permalink

also we can't write

horseshoe, Thursday, 10 November 2011 16:55 (2 years ago) Permalink

i was told by an adviser 3? years ago that i would have no trouble finding a great job

What in the world. (This was what was being said to us almost twenty years ago and there was little belief in that either.)

Ned Raggett, Thursday, 10 November 2011 16:56 (2 years ago) Permalink

philosophy students are the worst!!

max, Thursday, 10 November 2011 16:56 (2 years ago) Permalink

oh no, she wasn't talking about the academic market. she was talking to me about how i was imminently leaving academia and how great that was. tbf to her she definitely knows about the humanities market. i think it makes her feel like a criminal on a daily basis.

horseshoe, Thursday, 10 November 2011 16:56 (2 years ago) Permalink

i was just saying, just by virtue of spending all that damn time in grad school i returned to the job market at a terrible time, as did many of my friends who completed the ph.d. but are now tryign to find any job.

horseshoe, Thursday, 10 November 2011 16:57 (2 years ago) Permalink

i mean we all made some poor choices i'm not trying to say we bear no responsiblity it's just not a failure of imagination/laziness problem imo

horseshoe, Thursday, 10 November 2011 16:59 (2 years ago) Permalink

not gonna lie, I am very happy that I stuck with a CS degree and that I graduated in the mid 90s when anyone who had ever looked at a computer could get a job writing software

sex-poodle Al Gore (DJP), Thursday, 10 November 2011 17:00 (2 years ago) Permalink

well i am really lazy but most of them are not

horseshoe, Thursday, 10 November 2011 17:00 (2 years ago) Permalink

Maybe starting a PhD next year will work out and I can skip the shitty economy.

If I don't get in as a CS PhD though I am gonna be sorely tempted to apply to philosophy PhDs next go round and then what will become of me

whoop, up the butt it goes (silby), Thursday, 10 November 2011 17:00 (2 years ago) Permalink

failure to know the form of the job market

max, Thursday, 10 November 2011 17:00 (2 years ago) Permalink

failure to understand alcibiades' lust for socrates

ASPIE Rocky (dayo), Thursday, 10 November 2011 17:02 (2 years ago) Permalink

how is jobby formed

goole, Thursday, 10 November 2011 17:04 (2 years ago) Permalink

so, I am not sure how reliable these numbers are or what they're measuring but:

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/empsit.pdf

table A-4 on pg 15 shows that the unemployment rate for ppl 25 and older with at least a bachelor's degree at less than 5% for the 5 months, slightly lower than what it was a year ago

I'm not sure how that correlates to "no one with a college degree can get a job" and I understand that it doesn't include most recent recent BAs

sex-poodle Al Gore (DJP), Thursday, 10 November 2011 17:10 (2 years ago) Permalink

yeah i pointed that out upthread--the real crisis in employment is w/ ppl who have less than a HS degree--but this conversation seems to be taking place in the context of "people not being able to find jobs" because otherwise im not sure what the point is

max, Thursday, 10 November 2011 17:12 (2 years ago) Permalink

iirc another criticism of that is that it doesn't take into account the quality of the job & degree creep - a guy with a BA or MS is doing something like data entry that even a HS dropout should be able to do xp

ASPIE Rocky (dayo), Thursday, 10 November 2011 17:18 (2 years ago) Permalink

the two are linked as college gets more expensive and the end result becomes less of a sure thing, 'the way out of poverty' is now just its own type of poverty xp

iatee, Thursday, 10 November 2011 17:19 (2 years ago) Permalink

yeah that's a big reason why why the hs dropout is unemployed xp

iatee, Thursday, 10 November 2011 17:20 (2 years ago) Permalink

why why why

iatee, Thursday, 10 November 2011 17:20 (2 years ago) Permalink

> maybe some peoples' 2.3 gpas will haunt them more in that future?

After your first job or so, I don't know if anyone ever cares about your GPA again?

also, don't remember if this was posted yet: http://chronicle.com/blogs/innovations/just-dont-go-the-sequel/30693

s.clover, Thursday, 10 November 2011 17:29 (2 years ago) Permalink

that's partly due to your ability to hide it, if we have permanent online resumes, every stain from your past might be online somewhere

iatee, Thursday, 10 November 2011 17:34 (2 years ago) Permalink

Facebook Timeline iirc

fun drive (seandalai), Thursday, 10 November 2011 17:44 (2 years ago) Permalink

I mean, for real, you can probably tell most employers "yeah, I partied too much in college, but when I hit the real world I got myself together, and since then I've x y and z" and they'd wonder why you're even telling them about college.

Unless they're just looking for excuses to cut people, which has more to do with the economy &c. than anything else, then why would they care? Like Don Draper always sez, it will shock you how much it never happened.

s.clover, Thursday, 10 November 2011 17:48 (2 years ago) Permalink

I think that is true atm but less true in our linkedin-timeline world where your resume, academic and (just as much) work history is gonna be less in your own hands

this is just my crazy futurist predictions and not super important tho

iatee, Thursday, 10 November 2011 17:53 (2 years ago) Permalink

I think the other thing college students get shafted on is lack of "experience." Dan's right in that CS degrees were (and to an extent, are) a golden ticket of sorts but most companies still don't want to hire a fresh from college guy these days. Once you get 2-3 years under your belt it's like job city, but finding the places that will hire you right out of school can be tricky.

I guess it's like that for a lot of jobs, but with even less demand and no particular skills requirement

mh, Thursday, 10 November 2011 18:09 (2 years ago) Permalink

failure to understand alcibiades' lust for socrates

Nothing simpler. By the same token as cannibals, who think they can absorb the virtues of their enemies by eating their choicest parts, Alcibiades felt (it was not a rational matter) that seducing Socrates would set a royal seal upon his powers of persuasion - and the power of seductive persuasion was the keystone of Alcibiades' career.

Aimless, Thursday, 10 November 2011 19:11 (2 years ago) Permalink

*gives aimless a job*

ASPIE Rocky (dayo), Thursday, 10 November 2011 19:12 (2 years ago) Permalink

(aimless tuckshis thumbs under his galluses and beams benevolently)

Aimless, Thursday, 10 November 2011 19:15 (2 years ago) Permalink

http://bigthink.com/ideas/41034?page=all

I've got a good bit of student-loan debt myself, acquired studying philosophy in grad school. And then I dropped out before finishing my Ph.D.! Well, I don't regret it. Sometimes in grad school you'll hear students and faculty both speak with a certain dread of "the real world." It turns out, however, that universities aren't actually located outside this here space-time continuum, but are part of the real world, and a pretty great part, too, if you're lucky enough to get into it. I don't know that when I took out student loans to help support myself that I thought I was taking some kind of "gamble." I knew I was redistributing income from my future to my present self, and not really because I needed the money to make an investment that would payoff, but because I wanted to study philosophy and I couldn't otherwise afford it. I was buying the rarefied leisure of grad school and knowledge of philosophy. Now I know all about philosophy, will for the rest of my live, and I love it! Did I get some remunerative skills in the bargain? I reckon I did. I certainly sharpened my analytical and argumentative abilities, which came in handy as a think-tank fellow, and come in handy now as a semi-employed blogger for The Economist and Big Think. But so what! I spent years reading and thinking about Aristotle and Kant and Quine and Rawls, which is not everyone's idea of a holiday, but I'll always treasure that time in my life, and I've got more to show for it than a scrapbook of exotic snapshots. It remade my mind.

Now, what I'm not about to do is pitch a tent on America's lawn and complain that "the system" has done me wrong. That would be insane. I studied painting and drawing at State U on an art scholarship. I studied philosophy at two more State Us, subsidized by taxpayers the whole way, either in the form of tuition waivers (for being a graduate teaching assistant, a job that doesn't really ask that much of you, to be honest) or in the form of cheap loans I certainly couldn't have landed on the market. ("Please, sir: I have an art degree with a mediocre GPA, and I would like your bank to give me some money to read Roderick Chisholm. Please?") "The system" gave me a very nice time, and helped me accumulate some rather luxurious if not exceedingly practical "human capital." So I'm not complaining about debt-slavery or anything moronic like that.

he's the success story of someone in his position - can pay the bills, enjoys his work, even uses his analytical skills - but at the same time he misses the tragic aspect. the 'success story' - a semi-employed blogger has very little career security, probably can't really imagine buying property, etc. who knows, maybe he can bank on conservative think tanks employing him for the rest of his life. maybe his blog will get huge or he'll write a best seller.

but in reality
a. not everyone who drops out of a philosophy phd w/ tons of student debt can get a part-time blog at the economist
b. even people like him who 'made it' are often in precarious financial situations w/ unclear long-term prospects

iatee, Friday, 11 November 2011 16:32 (2 years ago) Permalink

"It shouldn't cost this amount of money for higher education," he said. "Class size of ten is not necessary for students to learn."

this comment must be from 1975 or soemthing

iatee, Friday, 11 November 2011 18:09 (2 years ago) Permalink

haha

BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Friday, 11 November 2011 18:13 (2 years ago) Permalink

dunno why the AEI funded this, but it's a good look at the consumer information problems w/r/t college

http://www.educationsector.org/sites/default/files/publications/HigherEdDisclosure_RELEASE.pdf

iatee, Friday, 11 November 2011 23:15 (2 years ago) Permalink

http://www.villagevoice.com/content/printVersion/3188138/

iatee, Saturday, 12 November 2011 22:53 (2 years ago) Permalink

this is just personal anecdata, but everybody i know who went to nyu is doing pretty well now. that said, most of them graduated in the '90s.

patio hunter (get bent), Saturday, 12 November 2011 23:04 (2 years ago) Permalink

nyu tuition 1995: $19,798
nyu tuition 2011: $41,606

I like how they (legally) have to give you all the numbers, but they sure don't have to do the addition
http://www.nyu.edu/bursar/tuition.fees/rates11/ugcas.html
http://cas.nyu.edu/object/bulletin1012.ug.financialaid#TUITION

iatee, Saturday, 12 November 2011 23:17 (2 years ago) Permalink

seeing nyu go from also-ran "safety school" to insanely rich & powerful elite school has been something

buzza, Saturday, 12 November 2011 23:19 (2 years ago) Permalink

combination of right place, right time, right willingness to put suburban 18 y/os 6 figures in debt

iatee, Saturday, 12 November 2011 23:24 (2 years ago) Permalink

i blame felicity

1staethyr, Saturday, 12 November 2011 23:51 (2 years ago) Permalink

NYU's institutional factbook/common data set numbers

NYU seems to meet about 65-70% of demonstrated student need with subsidized loans and need-based grants.

whoop, up the butt it goes (silby), Sunday, 13 November 2011 02:21 (2 years ago) Permalink

By comparison, my expensive liberal arts college's corresponding number for last year was 91-95%. Harvard meets 100% of demonstrated need. Boston University, 89-90%. George Washington University, 93-95%.

whoop, up the butt it goes (silby), Sunday, 13 November 2011 02:24 (2 years ago) Permalink

If you're really interested in googling "<random college> common data set" the line I'm looking at is H2(i) in the financial aid section.

whoop, up the butt it goes (silby), Sunday, 13 November 2011 02:25 (2 years ago) Permalink

Basically if you do go to an expensive private college, don't go to NYU, because it'll be even more expensive.

whoop, up the butt it goes (silby), Sunday, 13 November 2011 02:28 (2 years ago) Permalink

UC sprawl

such a horrible place to build a new research university

iatee, Sunday, 13 November 2011 15:23 (2 years ago) Permalink

http://www.newyorker.com/talk/financial/2011/11/21/111121ta_talk_surowiecki

The bubble analogy does work in one respect: education costs, and student debt, are rising at what seem like unsustainable rates. But this isn’t the result of collective delusion. Instead, it stems from the peculiar economics of education, which have a lot in common with the economics of health care, another industry with a huge cost problem. (Indeed, in recent decades the cost of both college education and health care has risen sharply in most developed countries, not just the U.S.) Both industries suffer from an ailment called Baumol’s cost disease, which was diagnosed by the economist William Baumol, back in the sixties. Baumol recognized that some sectors of the economy, like manufacturing, have rising productivity—they regularly produce more with less, which leads to higher wages and rising living standards. But other sectors, like education, have a harder time increasing productivity. Ford, after all, can make more cars with fewer workers and in less time than it did in 1980. But the average student-teacher ratio in college is sixteen to one, just about what it was thirty years ago. In other words, teachers today aren’t any more productive than they were in 1980. The problem is that colleges can’t pay 1980 salaries, and the only way they can pay 2011 salaries is by raising prices. And the Baumol problem is exacerbated by the arms-race problem: colleges compete to lure students by investing in expensive things, like high-profile faculty members, fancy facilities, and a low student-to-teacher ratio.

The college-bubble argument makes the solution to rising costs seem simple: if people just wake up, the bubble will pop, and reasonable prices will return. It’s much tougher to admit that there is no easy way out. Maybe we need to be willing to spend more and more of our incomes and taxpayer dollars on school, or maybe we need to be willing to pay educators and administrators significantly less, or maybe we need to find ways to make colleges more productive places, which would mean radically changing our idea of what going to college is all about. Until America figures out its priorities, college kids are going to have to keep running just to stand still.

iatee, Monday, 14 November 2011 15:59 (2 years ago) Permalink

being a graduate teaching assistant, a job that doesn't really ask that much of you, to be honest

WTF?

EveningStar (Sund4r), Monday, 14 November 2011 18:57 (2 years ago) Permalink

why aren't teachers as productive as factories? honestly.

the MMMM cult (La Lechera), Monday, 14 November 2011 19:05 (2 years ago) Permalink

being a graduate teaching assistant, a job that doesn't really ask that much of you, to be honest

I won't sign on with this on any level, becaue its bullshit, but otoh, I knew grad TA's in school who really didn't do jack shit (and would admit as much!) and I could see how someone might get a dim view based on them. But I also knew enough other TA's that worked their asses off, enough to know that generalization is so wrong.

jon /via/ chi 2.0, Monday, 14 November 2011 19:11 (2 years ago) Permalink

I don't get that Baumol's disease thing. Even if the productivity of universities hasn't increased, why would that mean that the cost needs to rise faster than the rate of inflation? As far as I know, salaries aren't rising beyond the rate of inflation (or are some people's?)

xpost

EveningStar (Sund4r), Monday, 14 November 2011 19:11 (2 years ago) Permalink

This argument is about as convincing to me as "Computers are getting faster; why aren't teachers?"
Ridiculous pretty much top to bottom.

the MMMM cult (La Lechera), Monday, 14 November 2011 19:13 (2 years ago) Permalink

Man, the ratio of the amount of work that was offloaded to grad students at one of my grad schools vs the pay would be some statistic...

EveningStar (Sund4r), Monday, 14 November 2011 19:13 (2 years ago) Permalink

the argument isn't that teachers should be getting more productive LL, it's that there's gonna be an problem w/ the price when there's a limit to the productivity gains

iatee, Monday, 14 November 2011 19:14 (2 years ago) Permalink

Tbf, I don't think the argument is that universities should be becoming more productive:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baumol%27s_cost_disease

I get why productivity doesn't rise in the same way in the academic sector. But even accepting that premise, if wages are only rising with inflation (and I have to assume that they're dropping, considering how many sessional/adjunct jobs there are now), why should costs have to rise faster than inflation. Unless the issue is that salaries for admin and senior faculty really are rising well beyond inflation, which I can completely believe, and would give me one more reason to hate tenure.

xpost to LL

EveningStar (Sund4r), Monday, 14 November 2011 19:16 (2 years ago) Permalink

"... than inflation?"

EveningStar (Sund4r), Monday, 14 November 2011 19:16 (2 years ago) Permalink

I guess my view is impaired by the fact that my position combines loads of administrative tasks on top of curriculum development, teaching, and assessment, plus a fairly heavy ratio of required committee work. It's hard for me to see beyond these three and half walls (as if I have an office with a door! Ha!) Also at the bottom of the pay scale for my type of position at other schools. Whatever is generally true of the institutions he refers to does not seem to be really applicable to mine from where I'm sitting.

the MMMM cult (La Lechera), Monday, 14 November 2011 19:23 (2 years ago) Permalink

sund4r, the big idea is that when (most of) the rest of the economy *does* have productivity gains and this field doesn't, the wage might increase w/ everything else because a tenured professor won't work for 20k if she has better options

this is only one way of looking at the problem, I think the cost of non-academic faculty is prob more relevant. also it ignores how much of the 'people who are teaching' are getting paid...welll, 1980 wages.

iatee, Monday, 14 November 2011 19:24 (2 years ago) Permalink

Anyway, I've never been to Finland but I generally tend to think that this sounds right (from http://oncampus.macleans.ca/education/2011/11/04/a-two-tier-system/ ):

James Côté, who literally wrote the book on student disengagement and the quality crisis, takes an even bolder approach. He says that many students shouldn’t come to university at all, but, instead, be streamed into vocational trades, diplomas and four-year applied degrees that match their interests and abilities better than research degrees. In order to do so, he agrees with Hallgrimsson that we need a culture change, that non-academic skills need to be highly prized in our society, like university degrees.

A country that does things better, in Côté’s mind, is Finland. In many cases, only those who score in the top quartile on matriculation exams get into universities. But by the time students write the exams, roughly half of students are well on their way to a job already, as vocational training is provided to them in high schools. The other half, who were in the academic stream, have the option of attending polytechnics should they not get into universities. The benefits, says Côté, are no $50,000 bills to pay at graduation (tuition is free), those who do attend research universities get a rigorous education, and those who don’t can get jobs earlier, rather than making up for lost time after university.

It’s not surprising that Côté has the word “elitist!” hurled his way, as disadvantaged groups will inevitably end up in vocational streams more often than in universities. His counter is this: “If you take all these students and give them a B.A. Lite, they graduate and get jobs they could have done with a high school diploma, but the difference is they’re $50,000 in debt.” He wonders whether social justice has been achieved.

(Cote's and Allahar's book Ivory Tower Blues was quite good.)

xposts

EveningStar (Sund4r), Monday, 14 November 2011 19:25 (2 years ago) Permalink

Thanks, iatee, but, yes, this was one of my key issues: it ignores how much of the 'people who are teaching' are getting paid...welll, 1980 wages.

EveningStar (Sund4r), Monday, 14 November 2011 19:26 (2 years ago) Permalink

err 'how many'

iatee, Monday, 14 November 2011 19:27 (2 years ago) Permalink

(Maybe Tuomas could fill us in re Finland.)

EveningStar (Sund4r), Monday, 14 November 2011 19:29 (2 years ago) Permalink

I am getting 1890s wages

average internet commentator (remy bean), Monday, 14 November 2011 20:13 (2 years ago) Permalink

i've been thinking lately about what it's like to be a teaching assistant, since i've had one working for me recently. at many graduate programs they work teaching anywhere from 1-3 discussion sections from their very first semester on campus. that seems to me somewhat like if we expected college freshmen to also, during their first week of classes, start (with no previous experience) acting as assistant teachers, but under basically their own direction, with no in-class oversight, for a roomful of high school students. it's no surprise that it can be stressful for many of them and that often they respond, or appear to respond, by 'not doing very much'. those who ARE doing a lot are doing far more than their students probably realize, given how much catchup with this strange new kind of responsibility can be involved for early-career graduate students.

j., Monday, 14 November 2011 20:15 (2 years ago) Permalink

I've always found the system absurd for basically that reason. I'm not that old, and I went to a large public university, but all my undergrad profs were tenured or tenure-track afaik. This was what was great about the experience: these people had jobs where they had the security to do active research or creative work in the field; this informed their teaching. If I'd been taught by grad students and per-course migrant contract workers, I really don't think I might have decided that academia was a life I wanted (which might mean that I would have gone on to a much more promising career path...)

EveningStar (Sund4r), Monday, 14 November 2011 20:30 (2 years ago) Permalink

(I did have TAs in discussion sections and labs.)

EveningStar (Sund4r), Monday, 14 November 2011 20:34 (2 years ago) Permalink

being a TA is p stressful imo, i was lucky enough that my funding package allowed to work as an RA/professor's assistant my first year in grad school and had solid ground under my feet before i had to start running tutorials and labs. but there is a p wide range in the amount of work required to TA a course tho, i have a third year course w/ no labs, no assignments and sparsely attended office hours that i skim the reading for each week and thats abt it and i have first year survey course that is like a part time job all on its own

808 Police State (Lamp), Tuesday, 15 November 2011 03:13 (2 years ago) Permalink

another problem is that most grad students aren't gonna be rewarded for being amazing teachers - my best TA in college, who was a far better teacher than any of my tenured profs, couldn't find a permanent academic job after he graduated.

iatee, Tuesday, 15 November 2011 03:31 (2 years ago) Permalink

Everything I hear about the European system (um, except for devastating budget cuts) makes it sound better. What do Europeans on this board think?

xpost Yep.

EveningStar (Sund4r), Tuesday, 15 November 2011 03:32 (2 years ago) Permalink

the european system is better for your average student but america has 'the best universities'. I think we need to look more at 60s-era american universities more than 2010-era european universities, cause it's not like we don't do some things pretty successfully, we just have no price control mechanism and we've vastly underfunded our public universities. again, good comparison w/ health care. (tho europe does probably just do that better at this point.)

iatee, Tuesday, 15 November 2011 03:38 (2 years ago) Permalink

i try p hard to be a good TA and be an asset to students but realistically i think im there to help the professor first. idk... my last corporate job before grad school was in like the v bottom rung of mgmt but i had a p good report w/ the ppl that i worked with but those skills have not really translated to teaching.

anyway this is p pointless post but being a ta isnt the hardest work but its still p shitty

808 Police State (Lamp), Tuesday, 15 November 2011 03:41 (2 years ago) Permalink

My TAs have sections of 10-15 students, and grade 3 papers, a midterm and a Final- they have to hold regular office hours, attend my lectures, and contribute some paper topics. I don't ask them to give a lecture. I do worry about their compensation, and their treatment, and I host two "grading parties" (one for the midterm, one for the final) at my home where they do the grading with me present so that I can adjudicate borderline cases and so that we can get people's grading ranges more or less in alignment across sections. I take them out for dinner at the end of the semester. I know they're paid far better than I was at UC Berkeley, but I do wonder about the way that academia mostly exists to perpetuate itself, and so the sense that "this is job training for your future career" is supposed to float freely around our interactions, as if we weren't all aware of the shrinking job prospects that surround them. It's a painful time to do this job- I thought my generation of folks going out on the market were about as demoralized as we could be, but it really has gotten worse. I'd say "it's tough all over" and bitch about how much harder it is now to get a book contract but that's a first world problem . . .

the tune is space, Tuesday, 15 November 2011 03:55 (2 years ago) Permalink

aw, drew you sound like one of the good ones. my advisor at my program was like that, too, always taking grad students out to dinner and fretting about her role within the system. i think that's the best you can do, really. i'm sure your TAs notice and appreciate it.

horseshoe, Tuesday, 15 November 2011 04:06 (2 years ago) Permalink

lol one time she asked me to look in on her cats for a week while she was out of town and compensated me outrageously well for it

horseshoe, Tuesday, 15 November 2011 04:06 (2 years ago) Permalink

the european system is better for your average student but america has 'the best universities'.

Ha, at this point, I was actually thinking about 'better/fairer' for junior faculty and graduate students.

EveningStar (Sund4r), Tuesday, 15 November 2011 04:10 (2 years ago) Permalink

(Marking parties are the only way to go btw.)

EveningStar (Sund4r), Tuesday, 15 November 2011 04:10 (2 years ago) Permalink

I believe it's very tough to get a position in europe too. I'm basing that mostly off what I know about the french system.

iatee, Tuesday, 15 November 2011 04:12 (2 years ago) Permalink

It is.

EveningStar (Sund4r), Tuesday, 15 November 2011 04:13 (2 years ago) Permalink

Oh, I meant it's tough if you're not from there. I don't know what it's like if you're a citizen.

EveningStar (Sund4r), Tuesday, 15 November 2011 04:14 (2 years ago) Permalink

I know people who could get academic work here but not there, if that says anything

iatee, Tuesday, 15 November 2011 04:14 (2 years ago) Permalink

(french ppl)

iatee, Tuesday, 15 November 2011 04:14 (2 years ago) Permalink

this thread is just bumming me the fuck out rn :/

808 Police State (Lamp), Tuesday, 15 November 2011 04:16 (2 years ago) Permalink

Yes, I was supposed to do a Ph.D... too bad academia doesn't exist in the US anymore.

― burt_stanton

buzza, Tuesday, 15 November 2011 04:20 (2 years ago) Permalink

haha I know someone applying to philosophy phds and law school at the same time now

iatee, Tuesday, 15 November 2011 04:21 (2 years ago) Permalink

he says I'm "really a downer"

iatee, Tuesday, 15 November 2011 04:22 (2 years ago) Permalink

Close race for worse idea there. At least there is some chance of getting funding for the PhD.

whoop, up the butt it goes (silby), Tuesday, 15 November 2011 04:41 (2 years ago) Permalink

that said, our grad students do get jobs- there are jobs out there- it's just really, really competitive and hard, and likely to stay that way as the adjunctification / "casualization" of the academic labor force continues to widen the gap between the haves and have nots

the tune is space, Tuesday, 15 November 2011 04:51 (2 years ago) Permalink

iatee, Tuesday, 15 November 2011 04:58 (2 years ago) Permalink

That graph is missing some context. Would really like to know how the increasing proportion of part time faculty relates to the increasing student population, what institutions are adding those jobs, etc.

whoop, up the butt it goes (silby), Tuesday, 15 November 2011 05:03 (2 years ago) Permalink

My college (which, ugh, mistake) was something insane like 95% adjunct, which they sold as "nearly all our instructors are working artists, imparting real world knowledge [like how to survive at 38 with no health insurance]"

ENERGY FOOD (en i see kay), Tuesday, 15 November 2011 05:13 (2 years ago) Permalink

(95% is an exaggeration, it's more like 75% now that I actually look)

ENERGY FOOD (en i see kay), Tuesday, 15 November 2011 05:15 (2 years ago) Permalink

I almost want to try founding a college if I finish my PhD. Academia could use some entrepreneurism, and not the evil kind.

whoop, up the butt it goes (silby), Tuesday, 15 November 2011 05:16 (2 years ago) Permalink

Pipe dreamin'

whoop, up the butt it goes (silby), Tuesday, 15 November 2011 05:16 (2 years ago) Permalink

::6 years later silby, now dreamless and pipeless, takes a lucrative job in consulting, hoping to own a new pair of shoes for the first time in half a decade::

jon /bia /tche 2.0 (Lamp), Tuesday, 15 November 2011 05:20 (2 years ago) Permalink

My current shoes are over two years old!

whoop, up the butt it goes (silby), Tuesday, 15 November 2011 05:28 (2 years ago) Permalink

silby, vanderbilt is offering me a half-tuition scholarship + an ipad, can the university of silby match their offer?

iatee, Tuesday, 15 November 2011 05:36 (2 years ago) Permalink

We will have a room at the community center and free water fountain water.

whoop, up the butt it goes (silby), Tuesday, 15 November 2011 05:38 (2 years ago) Permalink

…need to get in to a PhD program first…

whoop, up the butt it goes (silby), Tuesday, 15 November 2011 05:46 (2 years ago) Permalink

My college (which, ugh, mistake) was something insane like 95% adjunct, which they sold as "nearly all our instructors are working artists, imparting real world knowledge [like how to survive at 38 with no health insurance]"

― ENERGY FOOD (en i see kay)

ha, i wonder if we share an alma mater or if many art schools operate this way (which wouldn't surprise me).

1staethyr, Tuesday, 15 November 2011 05:53 (2 years ago) Permalink

#2

iatee, Tuesday, 15 November 2011 05:57 (2 years ago) Permalink

even most of the course heads in my school were part time

plax (ico), Tuesday, 15 November 2011 09:29 (2 years ago) Permalink

Suggest Ban Permalink

the european system is better for your average student but america has 'the best universities'.

Ha, at this point, I was actually thinking about 'better/fairer' for junior faculty and graduate students.

― EveningStar (Sund4r), Tuesday, November 15, 2011 4:10 AM (7 hours ago) Bookmark

If you're any sort of scientist, PhD funding is relatively easy to get (and not tied to TA-ing) and there are still quite a lot of postdoc positions. However, permanent jobs in my corner of Europe are few to none.

fun drive (seandalai), Tuesday, 15 November 2011 11:38 (2 years ago) Permalink

yep

caek, Wednesday, 16 November 2011 16:16 (2 years ago) Permalink

most of the course heads in my school were part time

"Part-time employees" is so gauche. It's high time we started calling them "itinerant scholars".

Aimless, Wednesday, 16 November 2011 18:52 (2 years ago) Permalink

The young man, who requested anonymity in order to speak openly, graduated with more than $100,000 in debt. He has now whittled that amount down to $80,000.

He does not particularly enjoy his job and he's actively searching for other opportunities. He says the management team at his company isn't helping him grow, and many of his daily tasks are "monotonous" and focused on "damage control."

He wants to make sure his next step is the right one before leaving. But part of the reason he's stayed for three years is because the job compensates well. Between his salary and annual bonus, he's making about $85,000 a year.

I so do not buy the "nyc has such a high cost of living" excuse

iatee, Wednesday, 16 November 2011 21:27 (2 years ago) Permalink

is that pre or post tax

dayo, Wednesday, 16 November 2011 21:28 (2 years ago) Permalink

pre, and taxes are pretty high here, it's true

but seriously anyone w/ that kinda debt and income owes it to himself to pay it down asap

iatee, Wednesday, 16 November 2011 21:31 (2 years ago) Permalink

he probably likes 'going out' and 'eating at nice restaurants'

dayo, Wednesday, 16 November 2011 21:33 (2 years ago) Permalink

and 'living in a 2000/m studio'

iatee, Wednesday, 16 November 2011 21:34 (2 years ago) Permalink

look at it this way; he's putting approx 10% of his post-tax income towards his school loans a year

he could likely pay more but, in general, school loan debt is good to carry if you can reliably make your payments because of the lower interest rate; it makes much more sense for him to be focusing larger chunks of cash on savings/investing strategies and making sure he has a reserve to cover his credit cards

gotta say though, 85K including bonus sounds a little like he got boned (rip 90s)

sex-poodle Al Gore (DJP), Wednesday, 16 November 2011 21:44 (2 years ago) Permalink

^^ harvard glasses

iatee, Wednesday, 16 November 2011 21:46 (2 years ago) Permalink

lol u mad

sex-poodle Al Gore (DJP), Wednesday, 16 November 2011 21:56 (2 years ago) Permalink

u just mad cuz i'm ivy on u

BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Wednesday, 16 November 2011 22:00 (2 years ago) Permalink

you are right as long as he's saving money and not living the gud lyfe xp

iatee, Wednesday, 16 November 2011 22:01 (2 years ago) Permalink

John Zimmer grew up in Greenwich, Conn., home to many Wall Street titans -- including former Lehman Brothers CEO Dick Fuld, who owned a $10.8 million estate there.

Zimmer graduated from Cornell University in 2006 and immediately went into a two-year program in real estate finance at Lehman Brothers in New York City, working on commercial mortgage-backed securities.

this is like the textbook definition of underachiever who gets by on pure privilege alone

dayo, Wednesday, 16 November 2011 22:02 (2 years ago) Permalink

xp: he's probably living the okay lyfe, very few ppl who make that kind of money save ALL of it

sex-poodle Al Gore (DJP), Wednesday, 16 November 2011 22:03 (2 years ago) Permalink

Dan, at the present moment I doubt there's a decent investing strategy in the world that could give returns comparable to the interest paid on student loans. The "reduce debt" fund at least outperforms "bury it in the backyard" which in turn has outperformed a whole bunch else lately...

s.clover, Wednesday, 16 November 2011 22:20 (2 years ago) Permalink

Well besides making money with your other money, there's also building up yr credit rating using relatively-easy-to-manage debt, but that usually only matters if you are looking to buy a home or a car. Or a timeshare, lol.

Much Ado About Nuttin (DJP), Wednesday, 16 November 2011 22:35 (2 years ago) Permalink

pent-up households

ooh i love my loaf n jug! (silby), Thursday, 17 November 2011 15:01 (2 years ago) Permalink

"a handyman to hang a newly framed diploma"..?

a HANDYMAN TO HANG A DIPLOMA? who even thinks like that? even enough to make a not-very-clearly-signposted joke about it?

TracerHandVEVO (Tracer Hand), Thursday, 17 November 2011 15:13 (2 years ago) Permalink

“I have it pretty good at home, since it’s so close to my work, and financially I just feel like it’s smarter for the long run to buy,” he said. He says that living with his parents enables him to set aside about half of each paycheck. “It’s like I pay rent, but to myself.”

haha i totally see the camera swinging over to his dad, who is gritting his teeth

TracerHandVEVO (Tracer Hand), Thursday, 17 November 2011 15:15 (2 years ago) Permalink

it's pretty pragmatic! I would totally want to live w/ my parents if they lived somewhere where jobs for 20-somethings were

iatee, Thursday, 17 November 2011 15:51 (2 years ago) Permalink

rly don't understand parents who make their children pay rent but I guess that's just 'the american way'

dayo, Thursday, 17 November 2011 15:56 (2 years ago) Permalink

it's like the economic version of calling your parents by their first name

iatee, Thursday, 17 November 2011 15:58 (2 years ago) Permalink

(unless your parents are struggling w/$, obv)

iatee, Thursday, 17 November 2011 15:59 (2 years ago) Permalink

well yeah. but making your kid pay rent to 'teach them' about 'becoming independent' is, well

dayo, Thursday, 17 November 2011 16:04 (2 years ago) Permalink

i like the unsubtle undertone in that article of blaming young people with jobs for the economy not being better.

j., Thursday, 17 November 2011 16:06 (2 years ago) Permalink

i did that after college and a failed 6-mo. stint in DC. it was great. i waited tables, had obscene amounts of fun, stayed out of my parents' hair and they stayed out of mine. i did not pay them rent and basically just slept in the attic periodically, ate some of their food (not much, i worked at a lol health food restaurant and ate there most of the time), and used their phone.

the MMMM cult (La Lechera), Thursday, 17 November 2011 16:06 (2 years ago) Permalink

i was also only there for 6 mo., not indefinitely

the MMMM cult (La Lechera), Thursday, 17 November 2011 16:07 (2 years ago) Permalink

it's def less stressful when you know there's an end date

iatee, Thursday, 17 November 2011 16:08 (2 years ago) Permalink

i also have virtually no ambition, so doing this was not really a huge crushing disappointment for me

the MMMM cult (La Lechera), Thursday, 17 November 2011 16:08 (2 years ago) Permalink

still if my parents lived in the nyc metro region I'd so be cool w/ not helping the nyc rental market rebound, esp now that I don't live w/ my gf anymore

iatee, Thursday, 17 November 2011 16:09 (2 years ago) Permalink

if i didnt have a girlfriend id most likely move back in with my parents

stupid girlfried

max, Thursday, 17 November 2011 16:52 (2 years ago) Permalink

correct response is "can I have yours"

iatee, Thursday, 17 November 2011 16:54 (2 years ago) Permalink

oops meant for ows thread

iatee, Thursday, 17 November 2011 16:54 (2 years ago) Permalink

I dont want yr gf I am sure she is nice tho

iatee, Thursday, 17 November 2011 16:55 (2 years ago) Permalink

you cant have her, anyway

max, Thursday, 17 November 2011 16:55 (2 years ago) Permalink

we could trade?

iatee, Thursday, 17 November 2011 16:56 (2 years ago) Permalink

lol like i would trade a nyc girlfriend for a NEW HAVEN one

max, Thursday, 17 November 2011 17:00 (2 years ago) Permalink

yeah...it's a pretty crappy trade you basically have to half live in new haven, going again today

her apt is a lot nicer and cleaner than mine tho, so it's not all bad

iatee, Thursday, 17 November 2011 17:04 (2 years ago) Permalink

haha no i mean, not judging that dude at all, but the way he says "it's like i'm paying rent...... to myself!!" it sounds as though he thinks he's discovered some magic secret thing

TracerHandVEVO (Tracer Hand), Thursday, 17 November 2011 18:12 (2 years ago) Permalink

I crashed with my parents for about 4 or 5 months post-college. No big deal there.

mh, Thursday, 17 November 2011 19:04 (2 years ago) Permalink

i left home when i was 17 and went back a year later for six weeks and then got thrown out with my younger sister. we moved into a flat and quit university and went on the dole and sat around bitching about 'them' for hours on end. most days we wore these full-length, lace-collared, high-necked, floral-sprigged, port-stained, cigarette-singed brushed cotton nighties that our mother had given us for christmas the year before. we were too tired to get dressed until almost evening and also we were scruffs. audience feedback soon taught us to mix some humour and self-deprecation in with the pathos and the bitterness, and to hide our genuine deep sorrow and anxiety. any story featuring getting hit with a snorkel was a guaranteed crowd pleaser; i think the crowd never grasped how much pain a snorkel can inflict upon a teenage girl.

estela, Friday, 18 November 2011 00:49 (2 years ago) Permalink

I was wallowing in a depth of sorrow until the inexplicable snorkel reference, then questioned whether I was allowed a moment of levity or if it was a bizarre irony that an instrument of pain should be so ridiculous

mh, Friday, 18 November 2011 04:12 (2 years ago) Permalink

of course it's allowed, we were enjoying ourselves immensely, free at last and holding court in our grimy nightgowns.

estela, Friday, 18 November 2011 05:46 (2 years ago) Permalink

what is a snorkel?

dayo, Friday, 18 November 2011 11:13 (2 years ago) Permalink

estela that is a beautiful post

TracerHandVEVO (Tracer Hand), Friday, 18 November 2011 11:23 (2 years ago) Permalink

xp

questino (seandalai), Friday, 18 November 2011 11:24 (2 years ago) Permalink

what is a google xx-p

mh, Friday, 18 November 2011 14:53 (2 years ago) Permalink

I know a snorkel is something you use to breathe underwater, was just wondering if it had any other meaning.

dayo, Friday, 18 November 2011 15:34 (2 years ago) Permalink

it is also something you use to beat your recalcitrant daughters

Much Ado About Nuttin (DJP), Friday, 18 November 2011 15:34 (2 years ago) Permalink

it's also something whiney gives to his more fortunate victims

dayo, Friday, 18 November 2011 15:35 (2 years ago) Permalink

lol

for accuracy's sake, as much as i don't like people hitting their children, 'beat' in this case is somewhat over-egging the pudding.

estela, Saturday, 19 November 2011 01:02 (2 years ago) Permalink

xp thank you tracer

estela, Saturday, 19 November 2011 01:04 (2 years ago) Permalink

1 month passes...

http://www.epi.org/blog/unpaid-internships-economic-mobility/

iatee, Friday, 6 January 2012 15:26 (2 years ago) Permalink

http://www.insidehighered.com/views/2012/01/05/essay-new-approach-defend-value-humanities

talks a good talk but not seeing a lot of WANTED: ENGLISH MAJORS job ads, maybe I'm not looking in the right places

bob loblaw people (dayo), Saturday, 7 January 2012 01:48 (2 years ago) Permalink

Back in the days of yore, before Bangalore, my mad english major skillz made me a good living as a technical writer. Or maybe is was my technical skillz that did it. Any way, it was one or the other.

Aimless, Monday, 9 January 2012 19:22 (2 years ago) Permalink

well, you also weren't a hindoo

gnome rocognise gnome (remy bean), Monday, 9 January 2012 19:26 (2 years ago) Permalink

nay, nor no vindaloo-sot, neither

Aimless, Monday, 9 January 2012 19:27 (2 years ago) Permalink

Not very insightful or newsworthy imo, the 1% thing is kind of just a hook. Who isn't aware that Harvard et al are full of high-functioning super-keen workaholic children of upper-middle class to upper-class parents? The reason that demographics at elite universities are a demographic issue is not because the top 20 US colleges provide anything like a standard deviation better education than the next 200 colleges; it's the (alleged) resulting insularity of the social networks that develop at those schools. Really tho I suspect that whatever outcome disparity exists between people with BAs from Harvard vs. SUNY Stony Brook—a world-class university according to the usual rankers—looks a lot less significant when you compare students with similar pre-college backgrounds.

tinker tailor soldier sb (silby), Monday, 23 January 2012 05:54 (2 years ago) Permalink

Not very insightful or newsworthy imo

yeah p much

i was a preteen blogger (Lamp), Tuesday, 24 January 2012 00:26 (2 years ago) Permalink

i do love that xp

BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Tuesday, 24 January 2012 02:37 (2 years ago) Permalink

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/13/opinion/sunday/the-entrepreneurial-generation.html?pagewanted=all

did this ever get mentioned on ILX? I see some truth to the entrepreneurial spirit yada yada yada, but I don't see it as commercialism and complete lack of rebellion and dissent, I think it's about trying to establish a life outside of the failed system of corporate capitalism, even if it's just a sideline to the job that pays your bills.

Kiarostami bag (milo z), Thursday, 26 January 2012 22:16 (2 years ago) Permalink

yeah we talked about it somewhere. maybe this thread. I made fun of the writer and then dyao said 'no he's cool' and now my gf really likes him because he writes about jane austen and h8ing academia.

iatee, Thursday, 26 January 2012 23:05 (2 years ago) Permalink

dyao said 'no he's cool' (because he had him as a college prof)*

iatee, Thursday, 26 January 2012 23:05 (2 years ago) Permalink

but I agree w/ your general assessment

iatee, Thursday, 26 January 2012 23:08 (2 years ago) Permalink

he is my favourite academia hater

caek, Thursday, 26 January 2012 23:37 (2 years ago) Permalink

yeah we talked about it somewhere. maybe this thread. I made fun of the writer and then dyao said 'no he's cool' and now my gf really likes him because he writes about jane austen and h8ing academia.

― iatee, Thursday, January 26, 2012 6:05 PM (5 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i have not read that article but your gf otm

horseshoe, Friday, 27 January 2012 04:06 (2 years ago) Permalink

she got her mom his book for xmas!

iatee, Friday, 27 January 2012 04:09 (2 years ago) Permalink

http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,2094921_2094923_2105257,00.html

its like you can't even make it as an indie rock band anymore

keep working bb,

dave cool, Friday, 27 January 2012 04:11 (2 years ago) Permalink

third thread that's been posted in

iatee, Friday, 27 January 2012 04:13 (2 years ago) Permalink

think maybe that belongs in quiddities and agonies

Kiarostami bag (milo z), Friday, 27 January 2012 04:14 (2 years ago) Permalink

no it belongs in

hell

try again, fascist (Matt P), Friday, 27 January 2012 04:20 (2 years ago) Permalink

Deresiewicz follows up on that nyt piece

http://theamericanscholar.org/generational-conflict/

caek, Sunday, 29 January 2012 11:21 (2 years ago) Permalink

I don't think that stanford anecdote is very revealing as the stanford student body isn't very representative of the generation or even the college-attending generation. like, I'd imagine the numbers would be a lot different at cal-state sacramento. it can be dangerous to make assumptions based on yr experience teaching at Yale or living in Portland. etc.

iatee, Sunday, 29 January 2012 19:47 (2 years ago) Permalink

that's the knee-jerk response when people start ~talking~ about mild reforms. cf health care

iatee, Tuesday, 31 January 2012 14:37 (2 years ago) Permalink

A real education policy would ban anaphora on the internet.

tinker tailor soldier sb (silby), Tuesday, 31 January 2012 15:39 (2 years ago) Permalink

"One, for a small East Bay nonprofit, drew several hundred applications. The other, for the office of the Speaker of the California State Assembly—the second-most-powerful person in the eighth-largest economy on the planet—drew three."

Presumably people rationally calculated that at the small East Bay nonprofit there would be fewer layers between them and decision-makers and that they would get the kind of real-world experience with civic issues that people like WD constantly berate elite college students for not having. And that this was preferable to making coffee for the speaker of the assembly. I'm not sure this calculation is correct, by the way! But I'm sure it doesn't have to do with some kind of narcissistic entitlement on the part of Stanford students.

Guayaquil (eephus!), Tuesday, 31 January 2012 16:16 (2 years ago) Permalink

it's just such a weird thing to take in isolation - like, is your argument that stanford students don't get involved enough in gov't? cause I'm sure that overall they're well represented in the offices of politicians across the country.

iatee, Tuesday, 31 January 2012 16:46 (2 years ago) Permalink

oh man charles murray's 'coming apart: the state of white america' is just... the actual worst. im like 40 pages in and furious

Lamp, Saturday, 4 February 2012 07:52 (2 years ago) Permalink

its incredible to me that someone so stupid and gross gets to write op-eds in impt newpapers and magazines instead of being kicked in the spine repeatedly

Lamp, Saturday, 4 February 2012 07:54 (2 years ago) Permalink

this is how i feel about Malcolm Gladwell btw

sarahell, Saturday, 4 February 2012 08:38 (2 years ago) Permalink

lamp did you see this

"Is This Racist?" colloquy: the American Enterprise Institute asks "How Thick Is Your Bubble?"

max, Saturday, 4 February 2012 13:35 (2 years ago) Permalink

tyler cowen thinks it's great for some reason

iatee, Saturday, 4 February 2012 16:00 (2 years ago) Permalink

I like the sleight of hand that lets him only talk about white people (the calculations are complicated enough without adding race into the equation!!)

dayo, Saturday, 4 February 2012 16:35 (2 years ago) Permalink

tyler cowen thinks it's great for some reason

because tyler cowen is an idiot, is why he would think this

Lamp, Saturday, 4 February 2012 17:43 (2 years ago) Permalink

he posts good links but he is like the ultimate troll, it is sad how many times a day he trolls me

iatee, Saturday, 4 February 2012 17:51 (2 years ago) Permalink

well honestly if you can place yourself within murray's 5% elite this book is tremendously flattering to you. your moral and spiritual superiority to everyone else is never the result of longterm economic trends or technological changes or trade policy or manipulation of institutions on a scale so vast its practically invisible no its because you dont watch nascar and stayed married

Lamp, Saturday, 4 February 2012 17:54 (2 years ago) Permalink

example:

http://delong.typepad.com/sdj/2012/02/department-of-huh.html

iatee, Saturday, 4 February 2012 17:54 (2 years ago) Permalink

yeah I mean on the one hand I think it's true that we need to look at cultural factors - like, staying married pretty clearly helps you as an economic unit (having few kids too), so that's not *not* a thing, it's just a pretty shitty explanation for why certain people are billionaires

iatee, Saturday, 4 February 2012 17:59 (2 years ago) Permalink

my friend sent me a link to the david brooks op-ed on this dude and on a brief skim it didn't seem that objectionable to me. like he frames it in vaguely OWS 1%/99% language and talks about tribalism & segmentation, which I broadly agree with is a problem (in-so-far as it fosters an us-against-them mentality. like maybe rich people would be more inclined to pay taxes if the thought was 'I am contributing towards a common good' rather than 'I can't believe POOR PEOPLE are attaching themselves like remoras to my veins of flowing money.')

but yeah as max's gawker post points out, the whole enterprise is really gross, but I do think every rich white family should take in at least one poor white child so that the rich family's industrious can ~vibe~ into the poor child, it would make for a good reality show, you could monetize this

dayo, Saturday, 4 February 2012 18:01 (2 years ago) Permalink

nah see here's brooks: "Democrats claim America is threatened by the financial elite, who hog society’s resources. But that’s a distraction. The real social gap is between the top 20 percent and the lower 30 percent. The liberal members of the upper tribe latch onto this top 1 percent narrative because it excuses them from the central role they themselves are playing in driving inequality and unfairness."

the liberal members of the upper tribe latch onto this top 1 percent narrative because the top 1 percent narrative is the narrative that actually matters. talking about the social gap between the top 20 percent and the lower 30 percent is hiding the ball.

iatee, Saturday, 4 February 2012 18:09 (2 years ago) Permalink

what if I adopt chinese baby girl instead? x-post

mh, Saturday, 4 February 2012 18:10 (2 years ago) Permalink

that depends entirely on whether or not you are a tiger mom

iatee, Saturday, 4 February 2012 18:10 (2 years ago) Permalink

guess that means you're no longer part of the tribe

dayo, Saturday, 4 February 2012 18:11 (2 years ago) Permalink

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/02/04/the-one-percent-versus-the-twenty-percent/

I didn't read this before I said that I swear

iatee, Saturday, 4 February 2012 18:13 (2 years ago) Permalink

haha yeah I just kind of glossed over that

I do believe that americans should stop being so individualistic though ~love your brothers and sisters~

dayo, Saturday, 4 February 2012 18:15 (2 years ago) Permalink

maybe I've just been interacting with too many libertarians lately

dayo, Saturday, 4 February 2012 18:21 (2 years ago) Permalink

i am not reading david brooks take on this book because the idea of it i have in my head is already depressing enough

yeah I mean on the one hand I think it's true that we need to look at cultural factors

i think cultural factors have to be put in proper context though. like its weird to use the gingrichian idea that young working class men 'dont value work' rather than think about the way say, our culture constructs gender roles so that young men are often shut out of low-skill low-wage service jobs like office cleaning, health care &c

Lamp, Saturday, 4 February 2012 18:34 (2 years ago) Permalink

no for sure. or if you want to go one step further start taking apart the phrase 'don't value work', the concept of 'valuing work' is itself very culturally dependent.

anyway I'm thinking about starting a gen limbo blog as a clearinghouse for this sorta stuff outside of ilx.

iatee, Saturday, 4 February 2012 18:42 (2 years ago) Permalink

for some reason you can be an individualist and still make lots of money from other people

makes you think

mh, Saturday, 4 February 2012 19:24 (2 years ago) Permalink

Funniest thing about this stupid book is how all the publications giving it a good review don't publish the subtitle

max, Saturday, 4 February 2012 19:40 (2 years ago) Permalink

seriously though lamp you should take that quiz its hilarious

max, Saturday, 4 February 2012 19:40 (2 years ago) Permalink

haha i think im still much in the shaking with rage stage of my reaction to this whole thing to laugh at it much, even the idea of w/e illiterate nyt review its gotten is making me really mad in a way that suggests i cld use some ~distance~

the whole things is just so grotesque it should be funny but its getting treated so seriously! idk

Lamp, Saturday, 4 February 2012 20:35 (2 years ago) Permalink

just as a fun fact i was given a copy of the book by someone who works in securities at a party at bar specializing in craft and boutique beers i recognize that i am part of the problem

Lamp, Saturday, 4 February 2012 20:36 (2 years ago) Permalink

the american right-wing has shifted so far right that the 'moderate sensible doods' like him and brooks can just say whatever the fuck they want and get a lot of attention for it. I said it somewhere else on ilx but the easiest way to get an inordinate amount of attention is to be a moderate conservative thinker right now. like, if you're not screaming "where's the birth certificate?? where's the birth certificate??' you're already in the zone where your book gets nyt attention.

iatee, Saturday, 4 February 2012 20:38 (2 years ago) Permalink

(becomes moderate conservative author)

iatee, Saturday, 4 February 2012 20:38 (2 years ago) Permalink

p embarrassing that Murray didn't get laughed out of town over the bell curve but I guess ppl love scientific proof that their racism is okay

max, Saturday, 4 February 2012 20:40 (2 years ago) Permalink

this book is p racist too tbrr

Lamp, Saturday, 4 February 2012 20:42 (2 years ago) Permalink

i know this really should have sunk in by now but it blows my mind that the state of the right wing is such that charles fucking murray can be considered a moderate anything.

horseshoe, Saturday, 4 February 2012 20:51 (2 years ago) Permalink

lying w/ numbers = moderate

iatee, Saturday, 4 February 2012 20:52 (2 years ago) Permalink

the funniest part is how he kinda hints around at the fact that asian people are essentially white, in america (xp to myself)

Lamp, Saturday, 4 February 2012 20:53 (2 years ago) Permalink

lying w/ numbers = moderate

― iatee, Saturday, February 4, 2012 3:52 PM (44 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yeah, this totally strikes me as right when you point it out it's just !!!

fuck a bunch of charles murray, at any rate

horseshoe, Saturday, 4 February 2012 20:54 (2 years ago) Permalink

ugh ive been reading some of the reviews and no one like NO ONE is willing to call out how the fundamental assumptions that govern his book are pernicious attempts to distort the underlying economic reasoning behind the stuffs hes talking abt

Lamp, Saturday, 4 February 2012 20:55 (2 years ago) Permalink

like the fact that its cheaper to have slaves in china build ipads than it would be to have an almost entirely automated factory in california build them might have more to do with stagnating real wages than how often poor whites go to church!

also the idea that the current system was simply such a perfect meritocracy that everyone at the top is just so much BRIGHTER than the poor is horrible and so widespread i dont get it. like the idea that people are just whizzing into harvard business school purely on the strength of their impeccable genetics and not a whole host of societal factors up to and including the way we measure 'intelligence' is so fucked up and disgusting

Lamp, Saturday, 4 February 2012 20:58 (2 years ago) Permalink

lol 'america is a true meritocracy' gets hammered into middle schoolers

dayo, Saturday, 4 February 2012 20:59 (2 years ago) Permalink

i can read like three sentences at a time before i just start fuming abt how this is actually the worst book in the entire world since history

Lamp, Saturday, 4 February 2012 21:02 (2 years ago) Permalink

okay I started a gen limbo blog

http://genlimbo.tumblr.com/

iatee, Saturday, 4 February 2012 21:08 (2 years ago) Permalink

aw http://generationlimbo.tumblr.com/

dayo, Saturday, 4 February 2012 21:11 (2 years ago) Permalink

dang http://thelimbogeneration.tumblr.com/

David Dees Weekly Top 40 (crüt), Saturday, 4 February 2012 21:11 (2 years ago) Permalink

ya it was taken in the other make ur own blogs too

iatee, Saturday, 4 February 2012 21:11 (2 years ago) Permalink

haha :/

okay i will probably stop posting about this book or maybe at least start a proper thread about it elsewhere but ive been thinking about how this book feeds into an idea of the way the individual and society shape each other thats really comforting, that its the personal qualities of a person or a class that determines things and that broad trends are driven by choices individuals make rather than like big somewhat hidden things or unintended or unforeseen consequences or w/e

Lamp, Saturday, 4 February 2012 21:23 (2 years ago) Permalink

iatee I'd register generationlimbo.net for you if you want to make this into a serious thing.

tinker tailor soldier sb (silby), Saturday, 4 February 2012 21:26 (2 years ago) Permalink

that its the personal qualities of a person or a class that determines things and that broad trends are driven by choices individuals make

rich people are all about justifying why they're rich

it's also the impulse behind libertarianism, imo

dayo, Saturday, 4 February 2012 21:27 (2 years ago) Permalink

or maybe that's ayn randology

idk it all runs together, basically it's like, everything you have, you deserve, because you made all the right choices in life, champ

dayo, Saturday, 4 February 2012 21:29 (2 years ago) Permalink

hmm that's an idea silby, pm me?

xp

all the libertarians I know are poor as fuck, idgi

iatee, Saturday, 4 February 2012 21:30 (2 years ago) Permalink

maybe it's just free-market capitalist libertarianism (so wikipedia tells me)

the idea that everything I earned, I deserve, fuck all those who didn't work as hard as me

dayo, Saturday, 4 February 2012 21:36 (2 years ago) Permalink

Getting born to my parents was probably the best choice I ever made, unless maybe it was choosing to be born healthy.

Aimless, Saturday, 4 February 2012 21:40 (2 years ago) Permalink

all the libertarians I know are poor as fuck, idgi

Well they've made all the right choices and should be rich & successful but since they aren't, it must be the other people who didn't choose as well, rigging the system to drag them down.

one little aioli (Laurel), Saturday, 4 February 2012 21:43 (2 years ago) Permalink

i think its just a p human need to explain things through clear narratives, the attraction of the anecdotal and personal. i dont think the idea that people shape systems rather than being shaped by them is unique to the libertarian right i guess?

like obv the idea that the elite is simply better - more virtuous, harder working, more intelligent - is a v old conservative idea. but the left has it myths about the elite as well, i think, that are just as rooted in psychodrama. i guess my big overarching problem with this books is that its attempting to bolster a number of myths about the poor and the economy are that deeply harmful to society and the will perpetuate destructive and immoral policies. also the idea that the only reason rich people should help poor ppl - by doing them the great favor of watching nascar and eating kfc - is so that the gov't doesnt have to provide unemployment benefits

Lamp, Saturday, 4 February 2012 21:47 (2 years ago) Permalink

reminds me of someone I knew in college. I remember her telling me she had to drop out because her father went to jail and she needed to support her mom and younger brother. I thought, "wow ... I guess I have it pretty lucky."

maybe it's not in some of these peoples' frame of reference that there are factors that are beyond peoples' controls that limit their ability to acquire material wealth and financial stability. and since their voices are the loudest in democracy, it's their views that drive policy.

Spectrum, Saturday, 4 February 2012 21:47 (2 years ago) Permalink

well, not in democracy, but our current government.

Spectrum, Saturday, 4 February 2012 21:48 (2 years ago) Permalink

like obv the idea that the elite is simply better - more virtuous, harder working, more intelligent - is a v old conservative idea

I think the prob comes in w/ the fuzzy zone in between - there are examples of people who are in the elite because they were virtuous, harder working and intelligent and so it's pretty easy to find anecdotal evidence for either side of the argument (dubya vs. obama pretty much)

iatee, Saturday, 4 February 2012 21:52 (2 years ago) Permalink

Laurel is on to something here

mh, Saturday, 4 February 2012 21:55 (2 years ago) Permalink

Wonder if it's our culture driving this narrative. Individualism and the old idea that having a good life is a sign of being chosen by god. Wealth is virtuous because it's a sign that god favors them or some other bullcrap idea.

Individualism in that we each have an individual choice to make something of ourselves, and if we don't do it, then the blame is solely on us... and probably makes it harder to understand other peoples' circumstances. It's a really weird mixture of ideas that put the self above others, and make it seem that social obligations or help is morally wrong, or aren't even on the radar.

Spectrum, Saturday, 4 February 2012 22:03 (2 years ago) Permalink

the old idea that having a good life is a sign of being chosen by god

"prosperity gospel" has been a pretty big part of modern protestantism, especially evangelicism

mh, Saturday, 4 February 2012 22:05 (2 years ago) Permalink

Well they've made all the right choices and should be rich & successful but since they aren't, it must be the other people who didn't choose as well, rigging the system to drag them down.

Laurel is on to something here

truly. this idea that the system could only ever be rigged to help the undeserving poor, rather than the undeserving rich.

lukas, Sunday, 5 February 2012 01:39 (2 years ago) Permalink

Yah, I see it as primarily a resentment narrative that validates an otherwise "inexplicable" lack of singular success.

one little aioli (Laurel), Sunday, 5 February 2012 02:05 (2 years ago) Permalink

all the libertarians I know are poor as fuck, idgi

Wow, this is really far from my experience.

EveningStar (Sund4r), Sunday, 5 February 2012 02:50 (2 years ago) Permalink

The few I've known have all been highly intelligent upper-middle-class students.

EveningStar (Sund4r), Sunday, 5 February 2012 02:59 (2 years ago) Permalink

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/post/study-income-inequality-may-boost-your-ego/2012/02/03/gIQAvcWpnQ_blog.html

A new study finds that countries with more income inequality tend to have more people who believe that they are better than average — a psychological phenomenon known as “self-enhancement.”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1tAYmMjLdY (dayo), Sunday, 5 February 2012 12:52 (2 years ago) Permalink

The lame NPR interview with Charles Murray never brought up the points mentioned here:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/02/06/charles-murray-book-review.html

curmudgeon, Wednesday, 8 February 2012 15:02 (2 years ago) Permalink

haha i would give quite a lot to be able to interview c.murray

frum's review gets at the big obvious points but doesnt really go far enough in pointing out how contradictory and pernicious murray's argument is.

BJ O (Lamp), Wednesday, 8 February 2012 17:27 (2 years ago) Permalink

i would give a lot for you to be able to interview charles murray, too!

horseshoe, Wednesday, 8 February 2012 17:30 (2 years ago) Permalink

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/grads-sue-brooklyn-law-school-charging-school-fudged-employment-stats-article-1.1018685?localLinksEnabled=false

could happen w/ a lot of for-profit schools in the future

iatee, Wednesday, 8 February 2012 19:16 (2 years ago) Permalink

Could happen? It happens with EVERY for-profit school. And probably every "non-profit" private school.

elan, Thursday, 9 February 2012 01:43 (2 years ago) Permalink

Or do you mean getting sued? Hopefully that's the case – it will probably raise demand for young lawyers ;)

elan, Thursday, 9 February 2012 01:44 (2 years ago) Permalink

yeah I meant lawsuits

iatee, Thursday, 9 February 2012 01:45 (2 years ago) Permalink

http://www.nacba.org/Legislative/StudentLoanDebt.aspx

I think ppl really underrate how big a thing this is gonna be

iatee, Friday, 10 February 2012 00:46 (2 years ago) Permalink

Harvard fails its students in a lot of ways. Teaching students to be "professional test takers" is only, to my mind, like 1% of the problem. (But a good response, nevertheless).

"renegade" gnome (remy bean), Friday, 17 February 2012 16:45 (2 years ago) Permalink

A different angle on Harvard's shortcomings:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-02-16/harvard-liberal-arts-failure-is-wall-street-gain-commentary-by-ezra-klein.html

o. nate, Friday, 17 February 2012 16:46 (2 years ago) Permalink

as someone who 'went hard' on his college applications i p much agree with most of the things in those articles

99x (Lamp), Friday, 17 February 2012 16:50 (2 years ago) Permalink

Klein is wrong, though, when he asserts

For many kids, college represents an end goal. Once you get into a good college, you’ve made it, and everyone stops worrying about you. You’re encouraged to take classes in subjects like English literature and history and political science, all of which are fine and interesting, but none of which leave you with marketable skills.

as the fault/problem of the colleges. As iatee and others have said elsewhere, it's more a problem that employers do not value this catholicism and awareness and the breadth of character this can create.

"renegade" gnome (remy bean), Friday, 17 February 2012 16:54 (2 years ago) Permalink

haha well its true that most hiring processes are relentlessly shitty and backwards

99x (Lamp), Friday, 17 February 2012 17:02 (2 years ago) Permalink

I think Klein's main point though is that colleges aren't doing a very good job of helping you to envision what you could do with those skills post-college. Maybe those are the right skills to teach, but they could still be doing more to try and pave the way to a post-college career.

o. nate, Friday, 17 February 2012 17:03 (2 years ago) Permalink

I've said this before but I don't think 'a ton of ivy league ppl go into finance' is actually a big problem. wall st itself is obv a problem, but I'm not convinced that the american economy is really losing that many potential nobel scientists / facebook creators etc. if 30% of princeton's class goes into finance. it's really not that many people and I don't think the difference between the schools that get this type of recruiting and the schools that don't is that huge. (there are a lot more vassars out there than dartmouths.)

the process is interesting and revealing of certain aspects of the job market, prestige, etc. - like it's an interesting thing from a sociological pov but I'm skeptical of 'this is a real problem', considering how few people this really affects.

iatee, Friday, 17 February 2012 17:13 (2 years ago) Permalink

I think Klein maybe underestimates the sociological explanation. Leaving the college bubble is kind of scary, and it's a big reassurance to follow the herd. From an Ivy school, you're pretty much guaranteed that a good chunk of your classmates will end up in NYC. The finance industry is the biggest industry in NYC. So it's not too surprising lots of recent grads end up in finance.

o. nate, Friday, 17 February 2012 17:21 (2 years ago) Permalink

I have worked on Wall Street for 25 years, and it is clear to me that college students who major in economics or business degrees often do so because they have no other passionate interests in topics such as history, literature, math or science. Economics and business are the “default” majors if you don’t have significant passion in other subject matters. For such kids lucky enough to attend elite colleges, the high cost of attending (think student loans) can be mitigated by high earning potential of working in consulting or Wall Street. In virtually no other industries can you be completely mediocre and earn a king’s ransom in pay.

::pets my liberal arts degree on the head::

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1tAYmMjLdY (dayo), Monday, 20 February 2012 12:28 (2 years ago) Permalink

elite college have some of the best financial aid in the country + 'the highest cost of attending' isn't limited to them

iatee, Monday, 20 February 2012 14:43 (2 years ago) Permalink

ie that guy still prob thinks about the world as 'ivy league schools are the expensive schools' and when he was young there was more truth to that

iatee, Monday, 20 February 2012 14:48 (2 years ago) Permalink

they're still expensive - there's a zone between like, 150k and idk 300k where students are still getting 'financial aid' in the form of maybe a few thousand a year. and then it depends on how willing your family is to shoulder the burden. or if your family is gonna be all AMERICAN VALUES and tell you once you're over 18, all your loans are your responsibility (until they die and then you get the inheritance)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1tAYmMjLdY (dayo), Monday, 20 February 2012 15:01 (2 years ago) Permalink

oh yeah even public schools are 'way too expensive', but the student body at these schools is pretty skewed compared to the 'average college' so the narrative of 'things are so expensive, this is the only way they cope' doesn't make that much sense to me

http://www.yaledailynews.com/news/2011/nov/11/avg-student-loan-debt-shrinking-at-yale/

The study placed Yale’s average student loan debt for the class of 2010 at $9,254 — roughly $15,000 below the national average — and Storlazzi said the class of 2011 graduated with an average debt of $9,000, partly due to Yale’s generous financial aid policy.

(I know their financial aid was less generous when you were there fwiw)

iatee, Monday, 20 February 2012 15:06 (2 years ago) Permalink

well that only counts the loans that are given as part of your fin. aid package - that doesn't take into account the expected family contribution, which your family may or may not contribute. if your family doesn't, then you take out private loans

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1tAYmMjLdY (dayo), Monday, 20 February 2012 15:08 (2 years ago) Permalink

The Project on Student Debt report found that 28 percent of Yale students in the class of 2010 graduated with some form of loan debt — 18 percent graduating with federal debt and 10 percent with non-federal debt. The study also found that 11 percent of the class of 2010 received federal Pell Grants, which do not have to be repaid.

the 10% w/ no-federal debt is probably more representative of students who do graduate with private loans

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1tAYmMjLdY (dayo), Monday, 20 February 2012 15:09 (2 years ago) Permalink

I mean I think that 'do this to pay my loans' narrative can be true for certain people for sure. otoh j is tutoring one of these kids in french. a roth$child. that girl isn't going into finance to pay off her loans.

overall there are lots of reasons to take jobs that pay lots of money in nyc, idt it's a mystery. if the jobs were being tossed at people at rutgers, 30% of the rutgers student body would go into finance.

iatee, Monday, 20 February 2012 15:10 (2 years ago) Permalink