it occurs to me that this month is the 10th anniversary of my divorce. interesting how it's still like the major demarcation of my adult life (which i guess makes sense, since it pretty neatly splits my adult life in half). i'm sure that'll change as it recedes more and more. but i looked through the various divorce-related threads and didn't find just one general all-purpose divorce discussion, so. here it is.
i don't know how many ilxors have been divorced. not too many, i'm guessing. not even that many of my friends have, since so many people our age didn't even get married until their 30s (they'll all be getting divorced in their 40s...). but i got married at 23, and divorced at 29. i'm glad it didn't spill over into my 30s, it allowed my 30th birthday to feel like a new beginning and all that. and it was, too -- in my 30s (which i'll depart later this year), i got happily remarried, had kids, have had basically nothing but good things happen. but the divorce still sort of lurks back there. i like margaret atwood's line about how it's an amputation -- you survive it, but there's a little less of you. and, i mean, people survive much worse things than divorce, i know that. and mine was relatively "amicable," as such things go -- we didn't have any kids, or property to divide (she took the car and the cats, i took the truck and the cds). but still, it fucked me up pretty good for a year or so. not anything i want to go through again. i've never felt that emotionally out of control of my life.
anyway. yes. divorce. thoughts, experiences, whatever.
― paper plans (tipsy mothra), Wednesday, 11 February 2009 19:11 (4 years ago) Permalink
so many people our age didn't even get married until their 30s (they'll all be getting divorced in their 40s...).
that's the spirit
― Courtney Love's Jew Loan Officer (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 11 February 2009 19:15 (4 years ago) Permalink
one interesting thing to me, post-divorce, was that within a year or so i had a large social circle (from going out every night, because i didn't want to go home) who'd never met my ex-wife and in a lot of cases didn't even know i'd been married. it was nice, in a way, made it easier to move on and all that, but it also felt very weird. like they only knew this small, new, somewhat artificial version of me.
of course, eventually that version expanded and became less artificial -- became the real me -- and the whole married-life first-wife part of my story started to seem more and more distant and weird to me.
― paper plans (tipsy mothra), Wednesday, 11 February 2009 19:15 (4 years ago) Permalink
xpost:
actually a few of my later-married friends have been splitting up lately. but they all seem to making some real efforts at reconciliation. i think maybe the stakes seem higher the older you are. i was young enough that it seemed like, you know, the whole world still awaits, etc.
― paper plans (tipsy mothra), Wednesday, 11 February 2009 19:16 (4 years ago) Permalink
the strangest thing about divorce, as a sibling of someone divorced, is how the in-laws are part of your family, they get included in many of your family get-togethers, you get to know them and hopefully like a few of them, and then BAM - it all ends. I mean, some people still keep in touch with ex-in-laws but I didn't and it does feel like a death.
― velko, Wednesday, 11 February 2009 19:18 (4 years ago) Permalink
yeah, that was weird. especially because i got along with her parents pretty well. her mother kept in touch with me for a few years, which was nice. conversely, my parents felt sort of betrayed (the divorce was largely driven by my ex-wife). i visited them the next year and found my dad had taken almost every picture of her out of the family photo albums, like some stalinist purge. which also meant that about 10 years of my life was suddenly drastically underrepresented in the official record.
― paper plans (tipsy mothra), Wednesday, 11 February 2009 19:21 (4 years ago) Permalink
One of my best friends from college was married and divorced along a pretty similar timeline. And while I know it's emotionally wrecking on a whole different level, I just think of lots of people I know who date or live with someone over about that same term, and have things fall apart around the same time -- assuming there are no kids, I feel like a divorce around then is a similar type of thing, just to an incredibly different degree. But we tend to perceive them really, really differently, sometimes.
That's kind of nice/reassuring to hear, that it didn't take you very long at all to build a new social world afterward!
― nabisco, Wednesday, 11 February 2009 19:23 (4 years ago) Permalink
^ I feel like I'm not explaining that first though well, because it reads a bit like I'm talking out of my ass -- never mind, I guess
― nabisco, Wednesday, 11 February 2009 19:26 (4 years ago) Permalink
yeah i think divorce is much much much harder and much much worse on everyone versus a breakup
― Mr. Que, Wednesday, 11 February 2009 19:27 (4 years ago) Permalink
Defs has WAY different cultural connotations (from what I've seen).
― i'm shy (Abbott), Wednesday, 11 February 2009 19:29 (4 years ago) Permalink
xposts:
developing a new social world was absolutely crucial. if i'd holed up at home i would've spent all my time feeling sorry for myself. and a good thing about going through a breakup is you can walk into almost any bar and after a while find someone else who is too. the informal support network of barflies.
and yeah, any breakup of a long-term relationship is wrenching. that was my only really long-term relationship prior to my current one, so i can't compare what it would be like to split up after 5 years vs. divorcing after being married for 5 years. i think maybe the shock is a little greater just because of the promise explicit in marriage of staying together, seeing things through. i didn't really expect to get divorced, even though obviously i knew it was something that happened. just thought it happened to, you know, other people.
― paper plans (tipsy mothra), Wednesday, 11 February 2009 19:30 (4 years ago) Permalink
ha that was pretty much exactly my immediate response to my parents' divorce.
― horseshoe, Wednesday, 11 February 2009 19:32 (4 years ago) Permalink
Yeah, I wasn't trying to say they were equivalent, or anything; obviously there's a huge psychological and symbolic difference between having made that commitment and having ... not. I just remember thinking that the mechanics of this divorce weren't necessarily miles apart from the mechanics of, say, a couple I knew who'd lived together through most of their 20s and were splitting up -- which basically made me feel much better for my friend, thinking that the adjustments he'd be making to rebuild his life were ones I could wrap my head around, the same kinds of things plenty of other people I knew were doing.
― nabisco, Wednesday, 11 February 2009 19:36 (4 years ago) Permalink
well right, and as more and more people have those kinds of experiences before they get married (if they get married at all), i wonder how it affects the overall attitude to marriage and divorce. like, if you get married already having the experience and knowledge of having a long relationship end, does that make marriage seem like more of a commitment (this is going to be different), or just like another long-term relationship that may or may not last? i know for sure that having been divorced once gives me extra determination not to do it again.
― paper plans (tipsy mothra), Wednesday, 11 February 2009 20:22 (4 years ago) Permalink
(i suppose how the experience affects you depends on the individual, like everything.)
― paper plans (tipsy mothra), Wednesday, 11 February 2009 20:23 (4 years ago) Permalink
I always get the feeling it makes people more careful, yeah -- not just the pain of things ending, but the fact that ... if you've had serious long-term relationships in the past without getting married, you're maybe less likely to make that total commitment unless you're really, really confident about it? Suddenly it has to be something more than the already-serious non-marriage relationship you had in the past.
I feel like the rough thing about divorcing young would be that attitude you mentioned, where people don't yet see it as something that happens often -- did that weigh on you at all?
― nabisco, Wednesday, 11 February 2009 20:28 (4 years ago) Permalink
yeah, it totally shocked me frankly. i really thought divorce happened mostly to unhappy suburban couples in their 40s (a.k.a. my friends' parents).
― paper plans (tipsy mothra), Wednesday, 11 February 2009 20:34 (4 years ago) Permalink
plus, i'd spent my whole 20s -- you know, the casual dating years -- in this very committed relationship (we'd been together since sophomore yr of college). so i felt like most of my peers had spent all that time sort of learning a lot of things that i hadn't -- and hadn't thought i'd need to because, you know, i was beyond all that. it was like suddenly going from grad school back to 9th grade, equipped with a huge amount of distrust about whatever i thought i knew.
― paper plans (tipsy mothra), Wednesday, 11 February 2009 20:37 (4 years ago) Permalink
My ex-wife and I were together as girlfriend/boyfriend for longer than we were married so I actually tend to think of her largely as being in the same category as other ex-girlfriends.
― It is not enough to love mankind – you must be able to stand (Michael White), Wednesday, 11 February 2009 20:40 (4 years ago) Permalink
Oh, Tipsy, I meant with other people, too -- I feel like maybe some people in their late 20s would assume there was something wrong or strange about someone their age who'd been divorced, whereas people slightly older wouldn't think of it as something that says anything major about the person involved.
― nabisco, Wednesday, 11 February 2009 20:46 (4 years ago) Permalink
we were together 5 years before we got married, then married for 5. so it's weird, if i'm telling stories about, like, when we were in england during and after college, i always say "girlfriend," and if it's later then it's "wife."
it took a while for me to get used to just even saying "ex-wife," it seemed so melodramatic.
and yeah, as i made post-divorce friends i did get a lot of raised eyebrows when i said i'd been married. mostly just, "you're too young to be divorced," and so forth. tho i also met a few people my age with similar experiences, so i didn't feel completely freak-show.
― paper plans (tipsy mothra), Wednesday, 11 February 2009 20:50 (4 years ago) Permalink
and actually to be crass about it, i think it was a plus in some ways in terms of dating. because by then, i was 30, and a lot of women my age who hadn't been married were starting to think about it, and i'd already sort of proved my willingness to commit.
― paper plans (tipsy mothra), Wednesday, 11 February 2009 20:53 (4 years ago) Permalink
"at least SOMEBODY could stand the bastard"
― Tracer Hand, Wednesday, 11 February 2009 20:57 (4 years ago) Permalink
"you're too young to be divorced,"
I used to respond to this (I was divorced when I was 26, iirc) with, "It would appear that I was married too young."
― It is not enough to love mankind – you must be able to stand (Michael White), Wednesday, 11 February 2009 20:59 (4 years ago) Permalink
and possibly trained me to make the bed. (which wasn't actually true -- that didn't come until the current marriage.)
― paper plans (tipsy mothra), Wednesday, 11 February 2009 21:07 (4 years ago) Permalink
Yeah, I think that effect has helped at least one person I know -- it is definitely a big "not scared of commitment" sign
― nabisco, Wednesday, 11 February 2009 21:13 (4 years ago) Permalink
Funny, I just found out today that my divorce finally went through back in December. The separation began (without relapse) in Aug '06 though... so I've processed it plenty and dated a fair amount since then.
I think the amputation analogy is quite apt. Even if I don't want her back, there's still something missing.
I waited til I was in my 30s to get married, and I meant it. Unfortunately I married someone in her 20s, and I think she felt like divorce was a very simple option. In face, she continually referred to it as a breakup.
Breakups and divorces really aren't the same thing IMO.
The good news is that even in my mid 30s, I've continued to grow a great deal in ways I likely would not have, had I stayed in that relationship. It's been a difficult few years emotionally, but I have a lot to show for it.
― Nate Carson, Thursday, 12 February 2009 01:57 (4 years ago) Permalink
how long did the legal process take? i know it can vary. i was a little shocked at how fast ours went through. since it was uncontested and there was nothing for a court to resolve, it was only like 60 days. was finalized a day or two after valentine's day, which was a nice little extra dagger. (all our legal paperwork and everything was done by a lawyer friend of ours who kindly and firmly refused to take any payment.)
and yeah, once it was over, the feeling of it stayed raw for quite a while. by now it's more like well-healed scar tissue -- i can think about it without getting mad or sad or all the other things it made me. but that took some years.
― paper plans (tipsy mothra), Thursday, 12 February 2009 02:40 (4 years ago) Permalink
Time heals all wounds. At least, as you said, to the scar tissue phase.
We did the paperwork ourselves, and we waited several years to do it. It would have been pretty fast if there weren't so many "i's" to dot and "t's" to cross. As it was, we finally had to go into the courthouse together and get some free assistance. After that, it apparently took about 2 weeks. I only know it's done because I called and asked.
Either way, it's an empty finale.
― Nate Carson, Thursday, 12 February 2009 08:45 (4 years ago) Permalink
we were together 5 years before we got married, then married for 5.
We buy scrap gold in our shop, so a lot of the time people come in to sell their wedding bands. A lot our dated ten years ago. It is strange to see how many younger people, compared to my age, are going through a divorce. A divorce seems so painful, especially when kids are involved. The ties can never be completely broken cause of the kids. Everyone is dragged into it. I hope it never happens to me. But if it does, it does.
― Nathalie (stevienixed), Thursday, 12 February 2009 08:59 (4 years ago) Permalink
a lot are i meant
― Nathalie (stevienixed), Thursday, 12 February 2009 09:00 (4 years ago) Permalink
my friend is getting divorced after being married 4 years. she told me today over gchat and i was just kind of like "ok" and didn't push for any more info. she just wanted me to know but i knew this would happen (should have sooner tbh) because i even tried to tell her before she got married i didn't think it was such a great idea (i didn't try *that* hard though, kinda rude). don't know what to do for her now though ˘\(o_º)/˘
― welcome to gudbergur (harbl), Tuesday, 29 December 2009 03:25 (3 years ago) Permalink
yeah, i'm now old enough to have lived through several of my straight friends divorces and all I can say as the bystander to this is that people who are going to get married should really talk together- a lot- about what being married means to each party, and what it doesn't mean. I have now seen a mis-match of expectations about marriage and crushing disappointment wreck at least three marriages (tho happily other straight friends are able to keep on trucking). Sucks.
― twice boiled cabbage is death, Tuesday, 29 December 2009 03:33 (3 years ago) Permalink
I dunno, I think it depends on the nature or duration of the relationship.
― sarahel, Tuesday, 29 December 2009 03:33 (3 years ago) Permalink
harbl i think u just need to be like hey i'm here if you need anything; maybe check in with her every couple weeks unless she tells you to step off
― call all destroyer, Tuesday, 29 December 2009 03:41 (3 years ago) Permalink
yeah we don't even live in the same state anymore so it's hard. she seemed like she just needed something to occupy her time so i'm kinda like uh, can't help u. fortunately they already lived separate because she's still in school and he works in another city. i dunno i don't really have a problem just like wow, what would i do, you know?
― welcome to gudbergur (harbl), Tuesday, 29 December 2009 03:44 (3 years ago) Permalink
it happens, rite
is that why they're divorcing?
― sarahel, Tuesday, 29 December 2009 03:45 (3 years ago) Permalink
send her some flowers or a nice present imo
― max, Tuesday, 29 December 2009 03:45 (3 years ago) Permalink
from my friends' experience - with both divorces and break ups of really long-term relationships - the things that make it the hardest are when kids or shared property (houses, businesses) are involved.
Call all Destroyer's advice is good.
― sarahel, Tuesday, 29 December 2009 03:49 (3 years ago) Permalink
i don't even know exactly why. i really didn't ask. i figured she would tell me sometime and i don't really have my own curiosity about this shit (not a gossiper? i don't know). i can guess well enough. they don't have any property either which is good! this is gonna be a breeze really
― welcome to gudbergur (harbl), Tuesday, 29 December 2009 03:51 (3 years ago) Permalink
for you or for your friend?
― sarahel, Tuesday, 29 December 2009 03:51 (3 years ago) Permalink
for her! not really but a lot better than it could be
― welcome to gudbergur (harbl), Tuesday, 29 December 2009 03:52 (3 years ago) Permalink
not a problem for me if i'm not making this clear. just thinkin baout things, wishing i could have more empathy sometimes
― welcome to gudbergur (harbl), Tuesday, 29 December 2009 03:55 (3 years ago) Permalink
did they try seeing a therapist together? i have found it to be very helpful, but sometimes things are too far gone.
― velko, Tuesday, 29 December 2009 04:04 (3 years ago) Permalink
nah i don't think it can be repaired, i think it might be for the best in the long run tbh
― welcome to gudbergur (harbl), Tuesday, 29 December 2009 04:13 (3 years ago) Permalink
If they're not even living in the same area, unless they had definite plans to do so in the future, I don't see the point in being married/in a relationship.
― sarahel, Tuesday, 29 December 2009 04:15 (3 years ago) Permalink
well some people see points in different things i guess
― welcome to gudbergur (harbl), Tuesday, 29 December 2009 04:19 (3 years ago) Permalink
yes they do, but at that point, if it were me, I'd be asking myself a bunch of questions.
― sarahel, Tuesday, 29 December 2009 04:20 (3 years ago) Permalink
i don't think distance had that much to do with it but i'm not gonna spell out all the other reasons for the internet
― welcome to gudbergur (harbl), Tuesday, 29 December 2009 04:27 (3 years ago) Permalink
Two of my very old good friends finalized their divorce yesterday. They were kind of my substitute parents when I moved away from home after high school to start college, both about 6 or 7 years older than I am, but always seemed far more wise than their age would dictate. I was there for the birth of their first child, spent many many hours at their house, and even sublet it from them when they moved to Denver for a couple years. A few months ago, the wife left for another guy. It wasn't sinister or anything. She wasn't sneaking around. But their relationship was clearly over. The husband had been pretty upbeat about it and going with the flow of the divorce... UNTIL TODAY. Maybe it was too soon, but the (ex) wife announced her new engagement today on Facebook and he FLIPPED THE FUCK OUT calling everyone who was congratulating her "false friends" and "inappropriate bitches".
Yeah, I concede that getting engaged the day after your divorce is final is probably a little selfish or, at the least, insensitive, but it was going to happen sooner or later.
My dilemma is that, while I still want to remain friends with the (ex) husband, it's going to be hard if he's going to be one of those guys who lashes out at people who are still friends with her as well.
How do I deal with this, ILX?
― Johnny Fever, Thursday, 13 May 2010 22:15 (3 years ago) Permalink
Tell him you still like him, but plan to remain friends with his ex, and that while you will do your best not to have the two spheres overlap they may, and if he freaks the fuck out on you then fuck him in the ear because you will not be disrespected.
― Have a slice of wine! (HI DERE), Thursday, 13 May 2010 22:17 (3 years ago) Permalink
You can't be friends w/him if he puts you in the middle this way and you might as well tell him.
― Il suffit de ne pas l'envier (Michael White), Thursday, 13 May 2010 22:19 (3 years ago) Permalink
That is pretty tactless though, announcing that via FB the day after a divorce is finalized.
― he's always been a bit of an anti-climb Max (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Thursday, 13 May 2010 22:20 (3 years ago) Permalink
Hope he'll eventually cool down, and if he doesn't you'll, sadly, probably have to take her or his side.
― my baby's got the bans (ksh), Thursday, 13 May 2010 22:21 (3 years ago) Permalink
Yes, it is. And dude has a right to say so but not to make his friends draw lines in the sand over it. Just because he's close to the issuse doesn't mean their other common friends have to be unforgiving about such a gaffe.
― Il suffit de ne pas l'envier (Michael White), Thursday, 13 May 2010 22:23 (3 years ago) Permalink
Oh I agree with your advice and he reacted horribly, but, I'm sure it has to be difficult for him and I would hope that mutual friends might also be a little understanding of the tough mental space he's in. I'm sure he'll regret some of the things he said with time.
― he's always been a bit of an anti-climb Max (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Thursday, 13 May 2010 22:26 (3 years ago) Permalink
You can't be friends w/him if he puts you in the middle this way
Yeah, I've done all I can the past few months to stay OUT of the middle of this. I most definitely don't want to be dragged in now that they're officially not married anymore.
― Johnny Fever, Thursday, 13 May 2010 22:26 (3 years ago) Permalink
If I were friendly with both of them I might congratulate her privately but I'd have a lot of trouble publicly oohing and ahhing and "liking this" on Facebook tbh. It would be insensitive.
― all yoga attacks are fire based (rogermexico.), Thursday, 13 May 2010 22:56 (3 years ago) Permalink
Ugh, Ive been lashing out at a couple of my friends recently because theyve befriended my ex's new lady, really fast - without apology - and its hard because he hooked up with her 2 days after saying we should break up. Nothing like a divorce, and I'm now just keeping it to myself, but I can understand the reaction. Its been impossibly hard to keep the bitterness and anger to myself. I dont know how it must be for long term marriage bustups.
― Eyjafjallalalalalatrolololol (Trayce), Thursday, 13 May 2010 23:29 (3 years ago) Permalink
facebook ay?
how not to move on...
― not_goodwin, Thursday, 13 May 2010 23:49 (3 years ago) Permalink
what about people who probably SHOULD get a divorce, but don't? I know a few folks who fall into that camp.
― homosexual II, Friday, 14 May 2010 00:15 (3 years ago) Permalink
this brings up the whole, "Why get married in the first place?" question.
love.
― Daniel, Esq., Friday, 14 May 2010 00:17 (3 years ago) Permalink
fear of eternal loneliness & having no one except for ilx posters to "talk" to for the rest of your life
― my baby's got the bans (ksh), Friday, 14 May 2010 00:24 (3 years ago) Permalink
marriage is not a guarantee of being loved and having someone for eternity
― homosexual II, Friday, 14 May 2010 00:40 (3 years ago) Permalink
you're right, it's not a guarantee.
― Daniel, Esq., Friday, 14 May 2010 01:00 (3 years ago) Permalink
Tax breaks.
I kid.
― he's always been a bit of an anti-climb Max (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Friday, 14 May 2010 01:13 (3 years ago) Permalink
I was engaged once. I'm pretty sure if we'd gone through it, we'd have been divorced in three months. I'm not in a rush.
It's totally for some people, though, and I'd never begrudge them the opportunity (even those who announce they're engaged the day following their divorce, no matter how shitty that is to the ex). I wish he would've been using to the separation to work out his issues and I wish she would've waited to announce TO THE WORLD (i.e. all the mutual friends, him, their children) that she's already engaged.
― Johnny Fever, Friday, 14 May 2010 01:18 (3 years ago) Permalink
I was engaged once as well, mainly due to immigration reasons (partner was canadian and gonna move to Aus). That ended, and I am also thankful, cos it really wasn't the right thing to do at all.
― Eyjafjallalalalalatrolololol (Trayce), Friday, 14 May 2010 01:23 (3 years ago) Permalink
The Importance of Hating Your Ex
― mookieproof, Friday, 14 May 2010 02:21 (3 years ago) Permalink
i can see where he's coming from, but yeah tbh fuck taking 'sides'
― May be half naked, but knows a good headline when he sees it (darraghmac), Friday, 14 May 2010 09:03 (3 years ago) Permalink
People who boast about their engagement on FB are just sort of ridiculous anyway. It's like sending all your friends cards telling them you're engaged. WHich some people do. "Jamie and Maria are engaged" with some gold cursive script and a photo of the lovebirds inside. Or possible a little more "craftsy" if the couple has Pixies listening in their past. What is the point of this shit? If I'm really your friend, you're going to tell me about it anyway. If I'm not really your friend, why am I getting this card about your intention to bone one person exclusively for the rest of your life? Doing this on FB is even less personal, and I really wonder about the motivation behind it.
― The Clegg Effect (Tracer Hand), Friday, 14 May 2010 09:36 (3 years ago) Permalink
when your parents start dropping the divorce word (when you yourself are in your thirties): still saddens you. but they won't (i hope). still, it's rather earth shattering. kinda fucking weird, cause you're an adult and you should be able to shrug it off, right?
― Nathalie (stevienixed), Friday, 14 May 2010 09:39 (3 years ago) Permalink
I don't think you could ever casually shrug off something like that...are they already separated?
― Matt #2, Friday, 14 May 2010 10:04 (3 years ago) Permalink
Nath, I hope this comes across in an understanding way, but does this put your mother's attitudes and advice about your own marriage into a different light? That, for me, would be the weirdest part.
― 3-D Whinge-ometer (Masonic Boom), Friday, 14 May 2010 10:09 (3 years ago) Permalink
my parent's looong disaster of a marriage certainly informed my approach to it (ie no fucking way, ever, thanks)
― May be half naked, but knows a good headline when he sees it (darraghmac), Friday, 14 May 2010 10:12 (3 years ago) Permalink
What darraghmac said.
― not_goodwin, Friday, 14 May 2010 10:27 (3 years ago) Permalink
Guys you realize you wouldn't be marrying your parents?
― The Clegg Effect (Tracer Hand), Friday, 14 May 2010 16:56 (3 years ago) Permalink
O RLY?
― all yoga attacks are fire based (rogermexico.), Friday, 14 May 2010 16:57 (3 years ago) Permalink
I really wonder about the motivation behind it.
PRESENTS
― Have a slice of wine! (HI DERE), Friday, 14 May 2010 16:58 (3 years ago) Permalink
Oh yeah.
― The Clegg Effect (Tracer Hand), Friday, 14 May 2010 17:10 (3 years ago) Permalink
my best friend's wife basically left him over the weekend. horrible timing as his father is dying right now as well and she's decided she wants to date someone else. they've been married for 12 years and have a 6 year old daughter and to him this basically came out of the blue; they had some issues having to do with communication, arranging finances, etc, but nothing that seemed to warrant this. very stressful on him (he responded by going home to the UK because it looked like his dad was going to snuff it immediately) but he'll come back. we're in california. he has no money and has been a stay at home parent for six years; she is the sole breadwinner. someone give us some advice here. I'm telling him it's very important he NOT leave the home; she's talking about them trading off week from week but I said no way, she is initiating this because she wants to sleep around, he didn't ask for it, so she needs to find other living arrangements for herself. I also am stressing to him that, though yeah, he's going to have to get a job, she's still going to be on the hook for support. they own a house.
any advice?
― akm, Friday, 30 March 2012 20:18 (1 year ago) Permalink
Lawyerlawyerlawyerlawyerlawyerlawyer. Borrow the money if he has to, but lawyer up sooner rather than later. It's very important that he realize that getting a lawyer is not a declaration of war or an act of aggression -- it's a way to make sure that someone who knows the law is looking out for his and his kid's interests while he goes to work on getting his head together.
― Three Word Username, Friday, 30 March 2012 21:03 (1 year ago) Permalink
he's got NO cash though. I mean nothing. He was wholly dependent on her financially (I'm not sure he even has credit in his name). Will lawyers see people like this? I have to imagine some will.
― akm, Friday, 30 March 2012 21:11 (1 year ago) Permalink
Some will, and I think especially in California.
― Three Word Username, Friday, 30 March 2012 21:12 (1 year ago) Permalink
My sister is in the same situation, akm and it's been very, very difficult to find a lawyer who isn't a total sleeze.
― fka snush (remy bean), Friday, 30 March 2012 21:24 (1 year ago) Permalink
I guess he and I both know some lawyers in our social circle, maybe even some in family law, so I'll see if he can talk with them. Will be somewhat awkward since our kids all went to preschool together but he needs to find someone trustworthy.
― akm, Friday, 30 March 2012 21:27 (1 year ago) Permalink
Yeah, the best way to find a good local lawyer is to ask another lawyer -- and the specialty doesn't matter when you're asking. A real estate lawyer or criminal defense attorney will know who the good divorce lawyers are. The phone book is no help.
― Three Word Username, Friday, 30 March 2012 21:43 (1 year ago) Permalink
very difficult to be seeing a friend thru this right now. i am not fully equipped for it.
― surm, Thursday, 3 May 2012 18:18 (1 year ago) Permalink
she confides in me every day. i am honored that she trusts me, but a little scared by it all. i am not the most put-together person i know.
― surm, Tuesday, 8 May 2012 12:56 (1 year ago) Permalink
trips me out that every single instance of divorce among my peers in my immediate social + professional circle has involved the woman leaving the man because they are, basically, tired of their husbands.
― Dunn O)))))))) (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 27 July 2012 18:40 (9 months ago) Permalink
Hm. There have been two in my old circle of Twin Cities high school pals lately but both of those were the flipside of that situation.
Don't have any recent examples from my current social+pro circle though to compare...
― Lewis Apparition (Jon Lewis), Friday, 27 July 2012 18:49 (9 months ago) Permalink
husbands tend to be tiresome xp
― Misc. Carnivora (Matt P), Friday, 27 July 2012 18:51 (9 months ago) Permalink
Well this is timely--my sister just texted me "It's done." I think she means filing for divorce, but I imagine there are still some steps left...?
― check the name, no caps, boom, i'm (Laurel), Friday, 27 July 2012 18:55 (9 months ago) Permalink
Almost all the women I know who are divorced outgrew or got tired of their husbands, yes. One was actually abusive, but the rest just didn't keep up in life or in personal growth.
― check the name, no caps, boom, i'm (Laurel), Friday, 27 July 2012 18:56 (9 months ago) Permalink
8 year anniversary in a month, minor miracle considering previous track record of me being outgrown by gf's
― Lewis Apparition (Jon Lewis), Friday, 27 July 2012 19:03 (9 months ago) Permalink
It often seems like the guys are just looking to...coast? Like get to an OK stage and leave it there and not have anything change. But the women ended up doing most of the housekeeping, cooking, child care (if applic), shopping, plus their part- or full-time jobs even up to equal wage-earning status. For my sister it definitely was like having 2 kids instead of 1 kid and a spouse--although it's fair to say she probably shouldn't have married a complacent youngest child whose mother had always done everything for him if she wanted a full partner.
― check the name, no caps, boom, i'm (Laurel), Friday, 27 July 2012 19:07 (9 months ago) Permalink
It often seems like the guys are just looking to...coast?
This is the goal, yes.
― how's life, Friday, 27 July 2012 19:09 (9 months ago) Permalink
yeah I don't know what to attribute it to, can't make too many generalizations. a couple instances have been wife-gets-bored/cheats on husband/ditches him scenarios. not so sure about what really drove the others, but in all cases the husbands seem blindsided.
― Dunn O)))))))) (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 27 July 2012 19:10 (9 months ago) Permalink
part of me wants to make some sort of terrible sub-David Brooks extrapolations about what this all means on a broader social level but the more sensible part of me knows this is just some fluke of my own personal experience
― Dunn O)))))))) (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 27 July 2012 19:11 (9 months ago) Permalink
In my anecdotal experience also, the husbands always seem to think everything is okay--or at least they have more to lose by rocking the boat so they'd rather not make any drastic changes. But that's...the problem?
― check the name, no caps, boom, i'm (Laurel), Friday, 27 July 2012 19:23 (9 months ago) Permalink
^^^ feels v true to me, like the oldest story known to mankind kinda true
― Lewis Apparition (Jon Lewis), Friday, 27 July 2012 19:26 (9 months ago) Permalink
weird that with my 2 high school buddies it was the wife who performed the wilfully ignoring/evrything's okay role.
or at least they have more to lose by rocking the boat so they'd rather not make any drastic changes
this seems u&k to me, especially given CA's divorce laws
― Dunn O)))))))) (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 27 July 2012 19:27 (9 months ago) Permalink
I don't know anything about divorce laws, that could be part of it. I meant that their lives are way more improved by being married than the women's are. The guys usually want to get remarried right away and get back to "normal," and the women can't imagine why they would ever get married again--or at least there's a very vocal strain of that.
― check the name, no caps, boom, i'm (Laurel), Friday, 27 July 2012 19:30 (9 months ago) Permalink
but the rest just didn't keep up in life or in personal growth
what does this actually mean?
― 40oz of tears (Jordan), Friday, 27 July 2012 19:30 (9 months ago) Permalink
we don't know, that's why they divorce us ;_;
― Lewis Apparition (Jon Lewis), Friday, 27 July 2012 19:35 (9 months ago) Permalink
in CA a wife divorcing her husband gets 50% of his assets for the rest of his life
― Dunn O)))))))) (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 27 July 2012 19:35 (9 months ago) Permalink
that's what she's entitled to by law, anyway. she could end up getting more, of course.
A lot of different things, probably too many to talk about like that, my bad. But from what I hear, just not expecting to grow as people or get more interesting or more cultivated or work on their emotional issues any more because they had what they wanted and it wasn't worth the effort going further?
― check the name, no caps, boom, i'm (Laurel), Friday, 27 July 2012 19:35 (9 months ago) Permalink
Yeah, sorry for the lol, lauren, but it's funny that your sister didn't know that she had married a man.
― pplains, Friday, 27 July 2012 19:37 (9 months ago) Permalink
basically, dudes who treat marriage as a paper transaction and do not expect to change anything about who they are or what they do?if so, that's my sister-I-L's husband, tho they do not appear close to divorce
― electric point-electric counterpoint (m bison), Friday, 27 July 2012 19:38 (9 months ago) Permalink
seems weird to marry someone with the expectation that they will later be a different person from the one you married, i dunno
― 40oz of tears (Jordan), Friday, 27 July 2012 19:43 (9 months ago) Permalink
some really great definitive anecdotal data in this thread update, good research everyone
― congratulations (n/a), Friday, 27 July 2012 19:44 (9 months ago) Permalink
Anyone ever notice how men drive one way and women drive a different way?
― how's life, Friday, 27 July 2012 19:45 (9 months ago) Permalink
just happy to be part of the team
― electric point-electric counterpoint (m bison), Friday, 27 July 2012 19:45 (9 months ago) Permalink
wasn't aware this thread was only for certified researchers my bad
― Dunn O)))))))) (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 27 July 2012 19:47 (9 months ago) Permalink
maybe I will grow into it
obv haven't dug into sociological data, any1 w new information on why women are leaving their mans is heretofore asked to post here
― electric point-electric counterpoint (m bison), Friday, 27 July 2012 19:48 (9 months ago) Permalink
this is an ilx thread, not a thesis
― congratulations (n/a), Thursday, July 26, 2012 1:26 PM (Yesterday)
― boxall, Friday, 27 July 2012 19:48 (9 months ago) Permalink
Oh that was the cool thread you started, n/m.
is there a happily married thread? I SHOULD START IT /marital braggin
― electric point-electric counterpoint (m bison), Friday, 27 July 2012 19:50 (9 months ago) Permalink
how about "this is the thread where we talk about how awesome our marriages are"
― Dunn O)))))))) (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 27 July 2012 19:51 (9 months ago) Permalink
I said it was anecdotal and so did shakey; I even specified that one of the examples is my sister. I never claimed to be impartial or w/e.
― check the name, no caps, boom, i'm (Laurel), Friday, 27 July 2012 19:52 (9 months ago) Permalink
I'm sorry for posting that in the divorce thread, seems insensitive I'm still p young so I dont know many divorcing couples. don't know that many married ones, either, I just married young I guess
― electric point-electric counterpoint (m bison), Friday, 27 July 2012 19:53 (9 months ago) Permalink
yeah i'm being a dick but it's just weird how the anecdotal evidence is like 100 percent indistinguishable from every shitty sitcom of the past 30 years
― congratulations (n/a), Friday, 27 July 2012 19:56 (9 months ago) Permalink
But with all due respect, because I'm very fond of both pp and sunny and lots of you, the idea that a man is someone who got what he wanted when he got a wife and now he can just sit back and that that desire is crucial to "manhood" is a) even more of a generalization than anything I've posted, and b) in cases where it is actually true, seems like a big part of the problem?
― check the name, no caps, boom, i'm (Laurel), Friday, 27 July 2012 19:56 (9 months ago) Permalink
Fair enough, but remember, I'm a wannabe shitty sitcom writer.
― pplains, Friday, 27 July 2012 19:59 (9 months ago) Permalink
I thought sitcoms were all baout lazy jerks being married to sassy women way hotter than they are
― Dunn O)))))))) (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 27 July 2012 20:00 (9 months ago) Permalink
tbf I haven't watched a sitcom in like 20 years or something
Archie grew IN the relationship, Edith grew OUT of it.
― Lewis Apparition (Jon Lewis), Friday, 27 July 2012 20:00 (9 months ago) Permalink
"every shitty sitcom of the past 30 years"
Yes we know, we wear their fake corporate logos across our chests proudly, quit hating on our national pastime please ...
― boxall, Friday, 27 July 2012 20:01 (9 months ago) Permalink
Edith "grew out" of the relationship by dying of a stroke, I don't think that's really comparable to divorce
― keeping things contextual (DJP), Friday, 27 July 2012 20:03 (9 months ago) Permalink
feel like i have a take on this even though i'm a man with a man. 1) i'm basically my mother. 2) i feel like i'm changing/growing faster than he is (i'm ten years younger). i've thought about making this cause for "moving on" but i sense 0 resentment/weirdness from him for my changes/choices (from what i can tell his heart is totally in the right place wrt "supporting" me), and it would be really unfair to him and to me to end things because i have expectations of him he can't meet. i find i have a lot of them! (based on poor models.) i think it's hard to to redefine expectations, basically. (if you're outgrowing a relationship, aren't you really just outgrowing expectations, and shouldn't you be able to redefine expectations if you want a relationship to keep happening.)
― Misc. Carnivora (Matt P), Friday, 27 July 2012 20:45 (9 months ago) Permalink
IDK, while we're generalizing anyway, I think that "I grew and (s)he didn't" kind of sounds like a rationalization for "I want freedom and adventure not boring marriage"? Because honestly I've never had any friend, male or female, who I thought got more interesting or cultivated over time. I've seen people take on more responsibility, or become better at negotiating relationships, and I guess that's personal growth of a kind but I don't know if that's what's being talked about here.
― Will Chave (Hurting 2), Friday, 27 July 2012 21:02 (9 months ago) Permalink
Or if not "I want freedom and adventure" maybe "I'm the kind of person who gets bored of sameyness"
― Will Chave (Hurting 2), Friday, 27 July 2012 21:03 (9 months ago) Permalink
yeah I dunno what's really meant by personal growth either
ps I am a man
― Dunn O)))))))) (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 27 July 2012 21:04 (9 months ago) Permalink
btw I'm male
― Will Chave (Hurting 2), Friday, 27 July 2012 21:04 (9 months ago) Permalink
I've seen people take on more responsibility, or become better at negotiating relationships, and I guess that's personal growth of a kind...
this is def what I was getting at fwiw
― electric point-electric counterpoint (m bison), Friday, 27 July 2012 21:06 (9 months ago) Permalink
also a male
― electric point-electric counterpoint (m bison), Friday, 27 July 2012 21:07 (9 months ago) Permalink
i figured shakey was just talking about a mismatch of ambition. like one person hit 35 or whatever and was like, this is cool, and the other person was like, i want more of [x]
― max, Friday, 27 July 2012 21:07 (9 months ago) Permalink
in both cases I was talking about yeah it seemed like the wife wanted to keep living (or revert back to?) their fun/glamorous/dynamic 20s or something. which seems like the opposite of growth to me but what do I know I'm just some asshole guy thinkin baout stuff
― Dunn O)))))))) (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 27 July 2012 21:08 (9 months ago) Permalink
I guess I know only a few of divorced/divorcing couples.
In one, they married too young, the guy became more of an asshole than he already was, and the guy joined the navy after they got married, which she never really supported, and she hated the life (he chose to be on a sub so he was really away a lot, plus she had to live wherever). I didn't blame her at all - navy submariner wife is kind of a special situation and not what she signed up for at all, and the guy was a real dick.
In another, guy is a really good guy in a lot of ways and a stay at home dad who does an amazing job of it. But he's also failed to really look hard enough for work since he lost his job and is devoting himself to somewhat pipe dreamy projects that never go anywhere (and she doesn't really make enough money to make this work). He also got all weird while she was pregnant and started going out with women "friends", one of whom was clearly interested in him -- I don't know whether anything actually happened. OTOH since I've known them she has been a perpetually dissatisfied person about pretty much everything, and whenever I was around them she was constantly hard on him and he just took it from her. So harder to take a side there.
― Will Chave (Hurting 2), Friday, 27 July 2012 21:17 (9 months ago) Permalink
Neither of those fit the "coasting" narrative fwiw. In one it was the guy who drastically changed, and in the other the guy has ambition but it's somewhat unrealistic ambition.
My first divorce was because the guy spent 10 hours working with his buddies at the tv station, then would get home at 11:30 pm with all his friends/co-workers and they'd hang until 4 am, sometimes 6am. Any projects, parties, nights out, dinner, movies always involved him bringing along two or all of these guys. I felt I was married to five guys. They were at the table for Thanksgiving, Christmas, my birthday., his birthday...more reasons but that aspect is what sort of cracks me up now.
― *tera, Friday, 27 July 2012 21:19 (9 months ago) Permalink
But my feeling is that wanting the person you're with to want to take your life together to new places can conflict with how you want your life to be. I.e. if you want the person you're with to change and grow and have ambitions and take their life new places, you also have to be prepared for the fact that those newnesses might fuck up your own plans.
― Will Chave (Hurting 2), Friday, 27 July 2012 21:20 (9 months ago) Permalink
that sounds bonkers tera
― Dunn O)))))))) (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 27 July 2012 21:20 (9 months ago) Permalink
yeah that is
I mean did the guy refuse to stop doing this when confronted?
― Will Chave (Hurting 2), Friday, 27 July 2012 21:21 (9 months ago) Permalink
Because honestly I've never had any friend, male or female, who I thought got more interesting or cultivated over time.
Yeah I'm doing a terrible job of defining that, sorry. Maybe...you get interested in things that you didn't know about before, and from those new hobbies or interests you learn stuff that makes you more complex, makes more opportunities for future mental connections. Or you meet new people and from those people learn about new ways to be, that makes you more flexible or nuanced in relationships and in understanding others. Or...you realize that all your life you've had a mental or emotional block that has hurt your relationships to people or to creativity or something, so you spend some time thinking about the cause and how to grow past it or heal or w/e. You contemplate how far you've come and where you're going and adjust your mental state to strive for a healthier um attitude to the world? Just...living with an eye to these things and not to, like, what's on tv and doing the same thing tomorrow that you did today.
UGH SORRY is that vague enough?
― check the name, no caps, boom, i'm (Laurel), Friday, 27 July 2012 21:24 (9 months ago) Permalink
sorry I was drinking beer and watching TV, did you say something?
― Dunn O)))))))) (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 27 July 2012 21:25 (9 months ago) Permalink
I can laugh now. I had my own friends and interests and spent time with both as much as I could but that made for a roomie situation. Then I stopped hanging and was waking up when he was going to bed.
― *tera, Friday, 27 July 2012 21:28 (9 months ago) Permalink
Basically you look at the pressure-points in your life where things go badly for you, sources of anger and frustration, and you either smooth them out or figure out whether they're non-negotiable and then make them the start of a new outlook on that thing.
ilx is a weird place to have this convo b/c almost everyone here is self-selecting for having a variety of interests and verbal skills and a desire to communicate & share ideas w others and all that.
― check the name, no caps, boom, i'm (Laurel), Friday, 27 July 2012 21:33 (9 months ago) Permalink
He never thought he was doing anything wrong. At the time I wasn't sure he was doing anything wrong. I finally decided to stop trying to live a life together and got a 2nd job working at a thrift store on the weekends. That is how I met husband #2.
2nd divorce the guy just asked for it out of the blue after 5 years. I just bought a new chicken coop, planted a garden, a fig tree and an oak started for me by my granddad. Thought I was settled, never saw it coming. He went off his meds, was having serious issues at work...broke up the band he started, became obsessed with trying to get a new a new co-worker fired. His schemes kept blowing up in his face at work and I thought he was headed for a breakdown but not divorce.
His mother had been having "private" meetings with him and stopped talking to me a month before he asked for one. I always thought that had something to do with it. His parents lived in town and every Sunday we had to go over at 11am and would stay until 10pm. Then mid-week there was always a play or restaurant outing with them. They called him daily. ICK! This all just sickens me just recalling that time. Weird how you think you are happy in a situation like that only to realize you were just nuts.
― *tera, Friday, 27 July 2012 21:37 (9 months ago) Permalink
Geeez how many times did I use "just" in that post?!
― *tera, Friday, 27 July 2012 21:39 (9 months ago) Permalink
oof parent-thing is def weird
― Dunn O)))))))) (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 27 July 2012 22:02 (9 months ago) Permalink
fwiw Jacob seems like an all-right dude :)
― Dunn O)))))))) (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 27 July 2012 22:03 (9 months ago) Permalink
YES!
― *tera, Friday, 27 July 2012 22:55 (9 months ago) Permalink
My divorce was relatively painless. We get along better now than we ever did.
― thebingo, Friday, 27 July 2012 23:39 (9 months ago) Permalink
― check the name, no caps, boom, i'm (Laurel), Friday, 27 July 2012 22:24 (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
this is all otm! & not super hard to get i don't think? a relationship takes more work, to be healthy, than just coexisting next to one another. & there's no reason that someone you meet when you're twenty would be someone you click with when you're thirty, because people cycle through changes for all that time. but still being curious, & still trying to evaluate what makes you happy, and whether another person is happy, and how practising what makes you happy fits with your ability to effectively relate to another person, and what would be best for a relationship directionally are all really important. this isn't an eyeroll at schlumpy guys who sit on the couch all day & let things pass by; i think it's just as easy to keep things as they are out of a deep contentment, not out of fear - out of a recognition that the status quo of a relationship is still superior to whatever you had as a single person (i remember vertiginously realising that i liked snuggling way more than i liked a bunch of the intellectual pursuits with which i'd previously filled my time), out of satisfaction. but it seems like a sensible & minimal goal to make sure that something that could ebb is nurtured, & that an affection and magnetism towards one another, an ability to relate to, & feeling of kinship & attunement towards, a partner is sustained, not just counted on. i know this sounds lecturey & this is not the secrets of my thirty-five year constant backmassaging marriage, it's from a history of a comfortable inertia that screwed things up. i just think there is a way you can be better than yourself as part of a pair, spend all your time trying harder, giving more. & some of that has to be in staying vaguely aware of the distance between working out what you need & what your relationship needs.
― 40oz of tears (Jordan), Friday, 27 July 2012 20:43 (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
like this is weird to me: obviously the person will later be a different person, because you are not the same person when you are 25 as when you are 45 or 65 or whatever. even if you think that we have an immutable human core or w/e, your priorities change so much & there's no reason to assume that that's going to just naturally be in sync with a partner's development. i am sure people grow in different directions & grow apart, but wrt one person changing & the other just not, i feel like some of that rests on their inertia (whether romantically governed or w/e).
― , Blogger (schlump), Saturday, 28 July 2012 00:16 (9 months ago) Permalink
I married a divorced woman whose previous marriage had lasted ten years. Ours has now lasted 28 years. She appears to have no regrets in either case.
― Aimless, Saturday, 28 July 2012 00:58 (9 months ago) Permalink
I was wondering what happened there, thebingo. Glad things are ok now.
I feel like I'll never get over my divorce. Barely talk to my ex now as she remarried and has a child and one on the way and is mostly living the life she wanted so it turned out ok for her. I miss her everyday. We've been apart 9 years.
― Bryan, Saturday, 28 July 2012 01:00 (9 months ago) Permalink
Schlump and laurel otm
― windjammer voyage (blank), Saturday, 28 July 2012 01:01 (9 months ago) Permalink
^^
― Misc. Carnivora (Matt P), Saturday, 28 July 2012 17:44 (9 months ago) Permalink
Man, so we have our first friends who are getting divorced with child. Guy was a good stay-at-home dad but a terrible husband (got them into debt, may have cheated, failed to look for a job even though she didn't earn enough to support them, comes from a bad home, etc.), woman contributed to the problems somewhat by not wanting to make an effort to fix problems early on before they got worse, but she's doing the right thing by leaving him afaot.
But we just visited them for the first time and she has this new boyfriend (divorce hasn't even gone through yet) who is EXACTLY LIKE HER HUSBAND -- looks like him (tbh a much less good looking version) and is the same dreamy childish charmer type that will cause them the exact same problems. It was actually uncanny and creepy -- the guy has some very striking and specific similarities to her husband. The whole thing is sad and painful to see, and I feel for their three year old more than anyone, because as bad as the marriage was this guy was great with his son and in any case its his father.
― bert yansh (Hurting 2), Monday, 20 August 2012 13:45 (9 months ago) Permalink
One of my favorite law professors, an old guy who had been married to the same woman since he was 20, told me "A lot of people who divorce really shouldn't bother, because when they remarry they just marry their exes again."
― bert yansh (Hurting 2), Monday, 20 August 2012 13:47 (9 months ago) Permalink
My sis never got divorced but she was with someone long enough it might as well have been -- and her ex ended up marrying someone who looked a LOT like her.
― Ned Raggett, Monday, 20 August 2012 13:52 (9 months ago) Permalink
painful subject
― curmudgeon, Monday, 20 August 2012 15:17 (9 months ago) Permalink
We were kind of debating whether to give her a "what the hell are you doing?" talk. BF was a nice enough guy (although he was so obviously on his best behavior to impress his divorcing gf's old friends that it was hard to tell), but he was basically a jobless artsy dreamer type with probably a lot of the same personality flaws as the husband. Like, if money and responsibility were huge problems in your marriage WHY ARE YOU DATING SOMEONE WITH THE SAME PROBLEMS BEFORE EVEN FINISHING THE DIVORCE? If not for there being a toddler in the picture I'd probaby leave it alone but.
― bert yansh (Hurting 2), Monday, 20 August 2012 16:58 (9 months ago) Permalink
that sucks, hurting. i'd do the talk, but that's me as an outside observer.
― goole, Monday, 20 August 2012 17:10 (9 months ago) Permalink
Guy was a good stay-at-home dad but a terrible husband (got them into debt, may have cheated, failed to look for a job even though she didn't earn enough to support them, comes from a bad home, etc.)
First three i understand, but "comes from a bad home"? Please tell me you don't hold that against him.
I come from a bad home too. Good thing I'm not married since I'd make a shit husband evidently....
― Lee626, Monday, 20 August 2012 17:19 (9 months ago) Permalink
yeah I think my wife said something gentle along the lines of "take it slow."
Sorry about the "bad home" comment, didn't come out right. My dad came from a difficult family situation too and he's a great dad and husband. With this guy it's a little more complicated -- it's not just that he has bad male role models but that his crazy family is still around and messing with things and causing her problems.
― bert yansh (Hurting 2), Monday, 20 August 2012 17:22 (9 months ago) Permalink
no prob, i understand. It's just that if you've grown up in a dysfunctional family (or are close to someone who has), it stings when i hear or read things like that. I've had employers, potential dates, and others not want anything to do with me because they were skittish about my background, things that were done by other people and were completely out of my control.
― Lee626, Monday, 20 August 2012 17:30 (9 months ago) Permalink
Isn't dating similar people fairly common?
A friend of mine came back into town once after breaking up with his girlfriend. He came up to my apartment with this girl and I had to take him aside and say, "I thought you broke up with so-and-so." And he says, "I did. That's not her!" They looked and talked almost identically.
I'll cop to dating the same kind of girl over and over. Sunny's the only one who's not like the others and that's likely the reason we've stuck together.
― pplains, Monday, 20 August 2012 17:46 (9 months ago) Permalink
― bert yansh (Hurting 2), Monday, August 20, 2012 2:47 PM (4 hours ago)
i know someone who is currently doing that exactly
― A.R.R.Y. Kane (nakhchivan), Monday, 20 August 2012 17:48 (9 months ago) Permalink
my best friend called a couple weeks ago, i knew she had some news, was super anxious all day that she was gonna tell me she was pregnant - but it turned out she had finally left her awful husband! so happy for her. unfortunately, it happened the same week a v v close relative died, she is having a rough time of it. probably didn't help that one of the last things her childless aunt said to her was basically "my dying wish is that you hurry up and have a baby".
― just1n3, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 04:07 (9 months ago) Permalink
i am sorry that her aunt died, but ugh that is a bullshit thing to say
― mookieproof, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 05:09 (9 months ago) Permalink
yeah i had to refrain from commenting on that - they were v close, esp because her family life has/is pretty fucked up, her aunt was like a mother to her. but that kind of pressure is bullshit. idk i think the net result was good - my friend's marriage had been fucked for a long time, but she wasn't able to make a decision and the husb was pressuring her for babies so she'd gone off the pill as was counting days in her cycle and avoiding sex when necessary (so crazy!!!) - but when her aunt said the above, it made her realise that for real she had to get out bc she did not want this man's kids, ever.
― just1n3, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 05:22 (9 months ago) Permalink
First three i understand, but "comes from a bad home"?
Sadly, he's on target. There are exceptions (my dad) but having to carry that background, it is very difficult to shake it off. Even my dad is still suffering from it. And even though he's a really great dad (and I guess husband, though my mom would sometimes vehemently disagree), there are influences from the past that trickle through.
I hope I never divorce, I really have a great husband. Sure we sometimes have problems. But I guess one thing I learned from my parents: even having terrible periods, sticking together is the best.
One sad thing is seeing how many people divorce these days and so quickly. Yikes. My kids are (or rather were) in kindergarten and there already you have so many parents who are divorced. I mean, shit, that is so sad. Some kids really suffer immensely from it. :-(
― Nathalie (stevienixed), Tuesday, 21 August 2012 11:39 (9 months ago) Permalink
i hope i never get divorced either but not so sure sticking together is always best. our parents had a long happy marriage but both my siblings got divorced. my sister and her husband split up acrimoniously, were divorced for five years, and then got back together! they now seem happier than they ever were before, like they worked out whatever had plagued them during the first 15 years of marriage. their kids, early teens then college now, seemed bemused by the split but they've always been reserved/quiet types. my brother otoh got married young and divorced after 13 years. he and his wife seemed miserable during the last few years of their marriage and instantly became easier to deal with, like a weight had been lifted. their kids were younger and the split affected them negatively afaict, even though their parents remained a united front and didn't put their 2 daughters between them. both are in their 20s now, doing well, maintaining healthy relationships w/both parents. my brother's ex re-married (to an old hippie-totally out of character) while he remains single and seems to have given up on dating. but he's not pining away, that's for sure.
bottom line is they were both lucky, cause divorce is devastating and should be avoided but it doesn't have to be a death sentence
― (REAL NAME) (m coleman), Tuesday, 21 August 2012 12:25 (9 months ago) Permalink
I hate to sound all family-first conservative, but I think a lot of people don't take the vows of marriage seriously enough -- there's this tendency to constantly happiness-check and love-check -- "Do I still feel it? Am I satisfied? Am I getting what I want?" that I think pushes people apart more quickly. IMO a lot of the POINT of marriage is that you agree to stick out bad periods and down periods and periods where you're not head-over-heels and periods where you're not 100% satisfied (not to mention periods of financial difficulty, stress, illness, etc.) -- that's what commitment means. You agree to do that because it strengthens both of you and your children as well. Of course there are toxic situations that don't strengthen people at all, and there are problems that don't deserve working through, and there are scenarios where one partner doesn't even want to TRY to work out problems. But there are also ways in which bad feelings about a marriage can be reflexive -- the more you think about what you're not getting, the more dissatisfied you get, the more resentful you become, the less willing you become to try to work with your partner to find solutions, etc.
― bert yansh (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 21 August 2012 14:38 (9 months ago) Permalink
I think a lot of people don't take the vows of marriage seriously enough
i agree - my friend mentioned above should never have gotten married in the first place but1. her husband made a really elaborate proposal that she later admitted she wanted to say no to but didn't have the guts2. there was a major incident of his assholery about a month before their wedding, but she refused to call it off because it was her "only chance" at a "fairy tale wedding".
― just1n3, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 16:00 (9 months ago) Permalink
dear god
― goole, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 16:21 (9 months ago) Permalink
yeah i love my friend, she is one of the best ppl i know, but when she told me all this stuff i was like.... WHAT ARE YOU DOING. but there were some other factors at play, too.
but she also pulled some asshole moves of her own, in order to engineer this final separation - she couldn't pull the trigger on making a final decision about staying with him or leaving, so she did some pretty dickish stuff so ensure it would happen.
― just1n3, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 16:32 (9 months ago) Permalink
that's really sad, must be a lot harder to watch when it's a close friend
― set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Tuesday, 21 August 2012 16:35 (9 months ago) Permalink
Most "fairy tale weddings" in my experience are indeed a fairy tale, but in the wrong sense
― Lee626, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 16:41 (9 months ago) Permalink
For sure. Just about every married couple in my family has separated or divorced in the last couple years (and most of the rest have ended because of death). Between that and having a relationship that seemed headed towards marriage blow up in my own face...well, 'gunshy' is too weak a word. People just don't seem inclined to stick it out anymore. Probably part of the fallout of living in a society that promotes an illusion of infinite options.
― Old Lunch, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 16:44 (9 months ago) Permalink
There's definitely an obsession with 'happiness' as a state of being that I notice among my friends and coworkers. Which to me is really just logically not attainable, except in moments. and that's whether you are single or in a relationship. you're never going to be permanently in a state of happiness. you're just not.
but it can be really hard for people to know moment to moment if the situation they're in, when it's unsatisfactory, is going to improve, or get worse, or stay the same. Not everyone can or wants to embrace that kind of uncertainty, and in my own personal experience a great deal of a relationship is kind of, well, founded on uncertainty. "Do I know for SURE that this person is the right person for me? No. But they are now. And I feel good about finding out." "Do I know for SURE that this situation will improve? No. But I want to see where this goes, and I want to do that with my partner."
But I'm well aware that that kind of logic really only applies to me in my own marriage. I can't really speak for anyone else's.
― set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Tuesday, 21 August 2012 16:57 (9 months ago) Permalink
Probably part of the fallout of living in a society that promotes an illusion of infinite options.
― Old Lunch, Tuesday, August 21, 2012 12:44 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
Yeah, this. Being married to someone means saying "ok, I accept the possibility that I may have missed out on someone even MORE great for me [or on an amazing single life], and I accept that." Because never making any choice means missing out, too, perhaps even moreso.
― bert yansh (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 21 August 2012 17:02 (9 months ago) Permalink
xpost
That makes sense to me. There's an extent to which you really need to try to see the forest for the trees and take the long view in a partnership so that if you happen to be unhappy at this particular moment, your brain doesn't immediately go to dissolving that partnership as the obvious solution. I tend to think that people with that mindset are gonna just keep going to that same solution rather than dealing with what might actually be the source of their unhappiness (i.e. themselves).
― Old Lunch, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 17:04 (9 months ago) Permalink
my parents are a weird example; our family went through a pretty rough time through my teens and twenties, during which time my parents pretty much openly disliked each other. but they didn't divorce because that wasn't a thing you do, and mum had this obsession about 'staying together for the kids'...which eventually seemed kind of ridiculous since it was clear to 'the kids' that mum & dad were basically aquaintances who lived under the same roof. they're still together now, perhaps a little friendlier now than they were, but certainly nothing close to an example of two people in love in any real shape or form. Mum's openly admitted that she does not love Dad. So it's like, well, okay you're together but there's no medal for that, you know that right? I dunno. That made it sort of hard to go into a marriage myself, not really having much of a practical example of how to have one except to, you know, 'tolerate' the other person which wasn't really what I wanted. So you just kind of make your own example for yourself, and figure it out as you go. but in general seeing my parents experience kind of makes me think there's no real right or wrong situation for any couple, it's just whatever works.
― set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Tuesday, 21 August 2012 17:19 (9 months ago) Permalink
my parents are pretty similar, vg - they will never divorce because it would be too hard and complicated, and financially they'd be pretty fucked on their own. i think my stepdad could have a chance at a real relationship with someone else, but he'd never leave my mother. and my mother has no apparent inner life, isn't very loving/caring/affectionate/empathetic; i am 100% sure she would never find anyone else to put up with her.
― just1n3, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 17:31 (9 months ago) Permalink
man
my parents are so genuinely fond of each other, they are like an actual real life Cliff and Claire Huxtable
― Lil Swayne of Pie (DJP), Tuesday, 21 August 2012 17:33 (9 months ago) Permalink
Does that make you Theo, Dan?
― Safe European Momus (James Redd and the Blecchs), Tuesday, 21 August 2012 17:39 (9 months ago) Permalink
my parents are pretty similar, vg - they will never divorce because it would be too hard and complicated, and financially they'd be pretty fucked on their own
That's how mine are too - and a big part of the reason i never wanted to get married. To this day, the first thing that comes to mind when i hear the word "marriage" is a woman and a man screaming at each other.
― Lee626, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 17:39 (9 months ago) Permalink
Man, just1n3, that's a frighteningly-accurate description of my parents but in reverse. I hate to admit it, but (my parents') home has only been comfortable for the first time in my life since my dad died.
― Old Lunch, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 17:41 (9 months ago) Permalink
xxp: given birth order, I think that makes me Rudy, although I'm terrified that I'm actually Vanessa
― Lil Swayne of Pie (DJP), Tuesday, 21 August 2012 17:41 (9 months ago) Permalink
my parents pretty much openly disliked each other.
Well, my mother hated my dad's guts. As a result she sort of brainwashed me into hating him. In hindsight I first felt guilty for hating him, then I was angry at my mom and now I realize she just fucked up. hah. I still remember that she told me:"I am not going through with the divorce because I don't want to lose our business." On the one hand I find that exceptionally coldhearted but otoh it was a good decision: they stuck together and became happy again (and then unhappy again and then... repeat ad nauseam) and it is a fact (especially) women have a crappy financial deal when there's a divorce.
I think one of the mistakes people make is not only forgetting wedding is about going through bad and good times; but that you will not be as happy trippy in love after a while. I don't miss it at all. Now I have this wonderful feeling of having a better half. Someone who knows me better than I do myself.
Also, I am exceptionally patient and tolerant. lololol (I am not being arrogant, I really am.)
― Nathalie (stevienixed), Tuesday, 21 August 2012 17:46 (9 months ago) Permalink
I am not disagreeing with anything in specific but just positing that before divorce rates go down, we will probably maybe see some changes to what "marriage" means, practically speaking? Because the ideal of marriage as being forever and your spouse being your best friend and confidante and also helpmeet and co-parent and co-wage-earner and stuff...that happens for some people but it's too big a burden for all personality types and all the different needs ppl have? Also I'm not the historical expert but that hasn't been anything like what "marriage" meant for most of the history of marriage iirc? The world has changed a lot but the marriage ideal hasn't much.
― check the name, no caps, boom, i'm (Laurel), Tuesday, 21 August 2012 17:55 (9 months ago) Permalink
I have been thinking about that (marriage being sth different now) and it scares me. I grew up with very few people divorcing (around me). So I still consider a marriage to be long lasting (or rather ever lasting). First time I heard about it I was in my teens and I really had no clue what it meant. I just can't change with the current times. Or at least I hope I won't. I want it to last.
― Nathalie (stevienixed), Tuesday, 21 August 2012 17:59 (9 months ago) Permalink
actually, the "marriage ideal" has changed radically over the last few hundred years. There largely wasn't an expectation of a romantic relationship in the medieval era or earlier
― Lee626, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 17:59 (9 months ago) Permalink
xp - to Laurel I dunno, I think it has changed and been adjusted to fit the individual needs of people all the time, it's just that people don't really dissect their relationships publicly all that much, at least not in the society I grew up in. I certainly never would.
The only marriage people seem to feel comfortable talking about is the one you described, but there are lots of irl marriages that differ from that in any number of ways.
― these albatrosses have no fear of man (La Lechera), Tuesday, 21 August 2012 18:02 (9 months ago) Permalink
I think about my parents too. My dad has been borderline controlling/abusive for parts of their lives, and if my mom were a healthy person with functional boundaries she'd have left him a long time ago but that wasn't an option to her so she didn't. But her life has been kinda sacrificed to him and the ideal of the nuclear family. And like in reality he is just not that pleasant a person, and even if he were less dysfunctional, he would not be an easy person to live with.
I think that about myself a lot, too, and how living w someone full-time and spending the majority of our free time together and cooperating on everything would just be an endless battle against following my inclinations or meeting my own needs? I am not that pleasant, and I am not that accommodating or selfless, and I don't say that proudly, I'm just saying that a person who would be able to stay with me under those conditions would probably not be totally healthy themselves. So...it's probably better this way? For me? I don't know how I'll end up obvs but there should be other options for romantic partnerships that aren't the kind of official marriages we've turned into the ONLY kind for the last...70 years? Or so?
― check the name, no caps, boom, i'm (Laurel), Tuesday, 21 August 2012 18:04 (9 months ago) Permalink
There are all kinds of options. Don't spend years wondering why you don't fit into a box, yknow?
― these albatrosses have no fear of man (La Lechera), Tuesday, 21 August 2012 18:05 (9 months ago) Permalink
Nah LL you are probably otm and I appreciate that counter-weight (+ your earlier post above). I guess I don't have that much experience with non-traditional marriages, not having seen v many of them in action.
― check the name, no caps, boom, i'm (Laurel), Tuesday, 21 August 2012 18:08 (9 months ago) Permalink
free floating observation:Even people who love one another dearly and who are a good match in most ways are going to have some times in their marriage where matters get pretty grim for a time and it takes massive committment to work their way through it. imo, that's a given. Not everyone entering marriage seems to realize this.
― Aimless, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 18:10 (9 months ago) Permalink
the ideal of marriage as being forever and your spouse being your best friend and confidante and also helpmeet and co-parent and co-wage-earner and stuff
I think this description allows for a wide spectrum of implementation tbh; for some ppl, it's going to be all about 50/50 responsibility splits and spending as much time together as possible, while for others it means finding someone willing to give them space at the drop of a hat but will be a support system when asked, to something else completely different
Because ppl are so idiosyncratic, you can't really define "compatibility" in any type of universal way. Also, it's impossible for anyone to be happy 100% of the time and any relationship using that as a foundation or a measurement of success is doomed; in many ways I think it's more important to know how the relationship works when people are angry, sad or upset, because that's the hard part of making things work.
― Lil Swayne of Pie (DJP), Tuesday, 21 August 2012 18:12 (9 months ago) Permalink
stevienixed your mum sounds kinda similar to mine -- I grew up resenting my dad for reasons that were poured into my ear by Mum, only to learn later in life that Dad's evils were blown way out of proportion by Mum just as a means of control, so she wouldn't have to face up to being kind of a crazyperson during that time.
it used to bum me out that I never grew up seeing my parents enjoying being around each other; smiling or hugging or kissing or anything like that. but I will gladly take what they have now, over what they were like when I was younger. I mean, the fact that they go places together on their own is kind of awesome to us now, lol.
Paul F Tompkins described the way his parents marriage was, that they were fun people in their 20s who liked going to parties and being together, and got married and had kids, but once they were in the marriage and had the kids, it was like they opened a present and found a sucky gift inside. And so they just kind of lived out their marriage resenting that the present sucked. (major paraphrasing)That's kind of how mine were.
― set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Tuesday, 21 August 2012 18:24 (9 months ago) Permalink
― check the name, no caps, boom, i'm (Laurel), Tuesday, August 21, 2012 1:55 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
Actually, divorce rates have been going down, significantly so. But I'm not really sure I know what you mean -- aren't people relatively free to create whatever kind of marriage they want at this point (or not to get married at all)? I think married couples vary pretty widely in how they negotiate these things.
― bert yansh (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 21 August 2012 18:36 (9 months ago) Permalink
my parents are so genuinely fond of each other
especially on mothers day iirc
― mookieproof, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 18:53 (9 months ago) Permalink
oh not just on Mother's Day, believe me
― Lil Swayne of Pie (DJP), Tuesday, 21 August 2012 18:54 (9 months ago) Permalink
Okay! I don't know anything about the statistics and did not look them up before making that post, I just ran with the anecdotal impression from the other posts that people feel like they are seeing a lot of divorces among their peers. And like I said before, I also don't see a lot of non-trad marriages/relationships first-hand and the ones I do see I prob don't give enough thought to the variety of ways in which they are non-traditional, since they still live together, vacation together, have kids together (not all, obvs) that kind of thing, so from the outside it seems p normal. But that could be because they just don't talk about it & dissect it outside of the relationship. They could all be secret weirdos for all I know! In a good way. I guess people who partner each oth long-term but choose not to marry are making a non-traditional choice, especially if they choose not to marry and still to have kids. That kind of thing is interesting to me.
― check the name, no caps, boom, i'm (Laurel), Tuesday, 21 August 2012 21:50 (9 months ago) Permalink
I know a couple that has bought a (very expensive) house and now the woman is actively trying to get pregnant but they are not married and probably never will be and yeah it is interesting
― Shameful Dead Half Choogle (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 21 August 2012 21:53 (9 months ago) Permalink
xp yeah I think at some point if you don't want to live together, vacation together etc. the better option is probably just not getting married. Although there are a fair number of academic married couples, for example, who live apart large parts of the year -- more often childless than not, I think.
I'm also at least acquainted with people who chose to have kids without formal marriage, although I think a lot of things about their arrangements probably are similar to mariage.
As for choosing to have children together and living and/or vacationing separately, I think there are just practical reasons why that doesn't happen that often. For one thing, not having a second person around to help with kids is just going to make it much harder, and I'm not really sure what would be desirable about that.
― bert yansh (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 21 August 2012 21:58 (9 months ago) Permalink
I mean my wife just took K for a few days out of the city without me and then I joined them later on, and she's occasionally done things on her own like an art residency, but we're a pretty traditional married couple overall.
― bert yansh (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 21 August 2012 22:00 (9 months ago) Permalink
fwiw having a stable parents and family b/g doesnt make a guarantee of being ok with relationships. My parents are still together, seem perfectly happy, never had any major fallings out (tho that, at times, was due to mum being a bit of a martyr and just coping with issues that came up and supressing rage marge simpson style, i suspect). Despite being surrounded by perfectly regular fam, with 2 broters married with kids, I appear to be a complete relationship fuckup and am 41 and single again.
― frances boredom coconut (Trayce), Tuesday, 21 August 2012 22:10 (9 months ago) Permalink
I mean my wife just took K for a few days out of the city without me
quoted out of context...
― goole, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 22:33 (9 months ago) Permalink
As a kid I remember feeling very out-of-place in that my parents were still together. And they still are - and they still totally seem to dig each other. They aren't super emotional and affectionate, which kinda skewed my perception of relationships for a while (I didn't realize until very, very recently that I need a lot of affection).
I fully plan on getting divorced one day. ;)
― homosexual II, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 22:40 (9 months ago) Permalink
Nathalie, aren't you also the one who thinks that masturbation is wrong? Or am I thinking of someone else?
Either way, 'sticking it out for the kids' is NOT the best solution imo. Especially if the two parents openly despise one another.
― homosexual II, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 22:41 (9 months ago) Permalink
never said it was. it's just the example I grew up with
― set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Wednesday, 22 August 2012 01:11 (9 months ago) Permalink
I guess I just think sometimes maybe parents could try to find a way not to openly despise each other if they weren't so attached to their personal resentments? But then I guess it's hard for me to imagine getting to that point with someone where you're totally beyond hope, because I'm lucky enough to have a connection with my wife that so far seems to survive difficulties.
― bert yansh (Hurting 2), Wednesday, 22 August 2012 02:17 (9 months ago) Permalink
homo otm the idea of married people staying together for the kids makes my skin itch.
― horseshoe, Wednesday, 22 August 2012 02:24 (9 months ago) Permalink
seriously, people, don't do that to your kids! i remember feeling like the whole world opened up when my parents got divorced, like the air had a different (better) quality. admittedly i am just generalizing from my experience, but everyone else itt is too as far as i can tell, so there.
― horseshoe, Wednesday, 22 August 2012 02:26 (9 months ago) Permalink
I can only speak of what I know from my parents, but I guess the key part that I skipped over was that 'staying together for the kids' is a good cover story. As much as they loved us, I know with almost 100% certainty that we were not why they stayed together. I sat in the car with my mum when I was 15 trying to talk her into just leaving. She knew we knew how bad it was. Part of it was that we grew up in a small town, both my parents pretty much knew everyone in the town and a lot of the reason for not getting divorced/separating was they didn't want the shame of everyone in town knowing that that had happened. Well, my Mum. Pretty much everything we went through stemmed from Mum's fear of being publically humiliated over x y or z. And the other part was just she was a very competitive person and didn't want to lose. Divorce meant that she lost. And she didn't want to lose to my Dad. From what I know of Mum, my guess is that in her mind divorce would mean that she had been wrong about Dad, and god knows she didn't want to be wrong.
Sorry for livejournaling but I just want to make sure you guys get that it's not actually really a literal pact that they made or anything.
― set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Wednesday, 22 August 2012 02:34 (9 months ago) Permalink
And to clarify again, she was pretty OTT during that period. Mum now and Mum then are almost two different people.
― set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Wednesday, 22 August 2012 02:35 (9 months ago) Permalink
VG i wasn't responding to you fwiw, more nathalie and Hurting. every unhappy family is its own special snowflake; i'm not saying people aren't right to pick up on destructive dating patterns in their friends' lives or whatever, just that "it's a shame because he's a really good father" doesn't have much traction from my pov--he's still going to be in his kid's life. it's going to be better for his kid not to have miserable parents being miserable around him when he gets older.
― horseshoe, Wednesday, 22 August 2012 02:36 (9 months ago) Permalink
Oh no I get that it wasn't aimed at me. Just weighing in longwindededly as per usual :)
― set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Wednesday, 22 August 2012 02:38 (9 months ago) Permalink