a divorce thread

it occurs to me that this month is the 10th anniversary of my divorce. interesting how it's still like the major demarcation of my adult life (which i guess makes sense, since it pretty neatly splits my adult life in half). i'm sure that'll change as it recedes more and more. but i looked through the various divorce-related threads and didn't find just one general all-purpose divorce discussion, so. here it is.

i don't know how many ilxors have been divorced. not too many, i'm guessing. not even that many of my friends have, since so many people our age didn't even get married until their 30s (they'll all be getting divorced in their 40s...). but i got married at 23, and divorced at 29. i'm glad it didn't spill over into my 30s, it allowed my 30th birthday to feel like a new beginning and all that. and it was, too -- in my 30s (which i'll depart later this year), i got happily remarried, had kids, have had basically nothing but good things happen. but the divorce still sort of lurks back there. i like margaret atwood's line about how it's an amputation -- you survive it, but there's a little less of you. and, i mean, people survive much worse things than divorce, i know that. and mine was relatively "amicable," as such things go -- we didn't have any kids, or property to divide (she took the car and the cats, i took the truck and the cds). but still, it fucked me up pretty good for a year or so. not anything i want to go through again. i've never felt that emotionally out of control of my life.

anyway. yes. divorce. thoughts, experiences, whatever.

so many people our age didn't even get married until their 30s (they'll all be getting divorced in their 40s...).

that's the spirit

one interesting thing to me, post-divorce, was that within a year or so i had a large social circle (from going out every night, because i didn't want to go home) who'd never met my ex-wife and in a lot of cases didn't even know i'd been married. it was nice, in a way, made it easier to move on and all that, but it also felt very weird. like they only knew this small, new, somewhat artificial version of me.

of course, eventually that version expanded and became less artificial -- became the real me -- and the whole married-life first-wife part of my story started to seem more and more distant and weird to me.

xpost:

actually a few of my later-married friends have been splitting up lately. but they all seem to making some real efforts at reconciliation. i think maybe the stakes seem higher the older you are. i was young enough that it seemed like, you know, the whole world still awaits, etc.

the strangest thing about divorce, as a sibling of someone divorced, is how the in-laws are part of your family, they get included in many of your family get-togethers, you get to know them and hopefully like a few of them, and then BAM - it all ends. I mean, some people still keep in touch with ex-in-laws but I didn't and it does feel like a death.

yeah, that was weird. especially because i got along with her parents pretty well. her mother kept in touch with me for a few years, which was nice. conversely, my parents felt sort of betrayed (the divorce was largely driven by my ex-wife). i visited them the next year and found my dad had taken almost every picture of her out of the family photo albums, like some stalinist purge. which also meant that about 10 years of my life was suddenly drastically underrepresented in the official record.

One of my best friends from college was married and divorced along a pretty similar timeline. And while I know it's emotionally wrecking on a whole different level, I just think of lots of people I know who date or live with someone over about that same term, and have things fall apart around the same time -- assuming there are no kids, I feel like a divorce around then is a similar type of thing, just to an incredibly different degree. But we tend to perceive them really, really differently, sometimes.

That's kind of nice/reassuring to hear, that it didn't take you very long at all to build a new social world afterward!

^ I feel like I'm not explaining that first though well, because it reads a bit like I'm talking out of my ass -- never mind, I guess

yeah i think divorce is much much much harder and much much worse on everyone versus a breakup

Defs has WAY different cultural connotations (from what I've seen).

xposts:

developing a new social world was absolutely crucial. if i'd holed up at home i would've spent all my time feeling sorry for myself. and a good thing about going through a breakup is you can walk into almost any bar and after a while find someone else who is too. the informal support network of barflies.

and yeah, any breakup of a long-term relationship is wrenching. that was my only really long-term relationship prior to my current one, so i can't compare what it would be like to split up after 5 years vs. divorcing after being married for 5 years. i think maybe the shock is a little greater just because of the promise explicit in marriage of staying together, seeing things through. i didn't really expect to get divorced, even though obviously i knew it was something that happened. just thought it happened to, you know, other people.

ha that was pretty much exactly my immediate response to my parents' divorce.

Yeah, I wasn't trying to say they were equivalent, or anything; obviously there's a huge psychological and symbolic difference between having made that commitment and having ... not. I just remember thinking that the mechanics of this divorce weren't necessarily miles apart from the mechanics of, say, a couple I knew who'd lived together through most of their 20s and were splitting up -- which basically made me feel much better for my friend, thinking that the adjustments he'd be making to rebuild his life were ones I could wrap my head around, the same kinds of things plenty of other people I knew were doing.

well right, and as more and more people have those kinds of experiences before they get married (if they get married at all), i wonder how it affects the overall attitude to marriage and divorce. like, if you get married already having the experience and knowledge of having a long relationship end, does that make marriage seem like more of a commitment (this is going to be different), or just like another long-term relationship that may or may not last? i know for sure that having been divorced once gives me extra determination not to do it again.

(i suppose how the experience affects you depends on the individual, like everything.)

I always get the feeling it makes people more careful, yeah -- not just the pain of things ending, but the fact that ... if you've had serious long-term relationships in the past without getting married, you're maybe less likely to make that total commitment unless you're really, really confident about it? Suddenly it has to be something more than the already-serious non-marriage relationship you had in the past.

I feel like the rough thing about divorcing young would be that attitude you mentioned, where people don't yet see it as something that happens often -- did that weigh on you at all?

yeah, it totally shocked me frankly. i really thought divorce happened mostly to unhappy suburban couples in their 40s (a.k.a. my friends' parents).

plus, i'd spent my whole 20s -- you know, the casual dating years -- in this very committed relationship (we'd been together since sophomore yr of college). so i felt like most of my peers had spent all that time sort of learning a lot of things that i hadn't -- and hadn't thought i'd need to because, you know, i was beyond all that. it was like suddenly going from grad school back to 9th grade, equipped with a huge amount of distrust about whatever i thought i knew.

My ex-wife and I were together as girlfriend/boyfriend for longer than we were married so I actually tend to think of her largely as being in the same category as other ex-girlfriends.

Oh, Tipsy, I meant with other people, too -- I feel like maybe some people in their late 20s would assume there was something wrong or strange about someone their age who'd been divorced, whereas people slightly older wouldn't think of it as something that says anything major about the person involved.

xpost:

we were together 5 years before we got married, then married for 5. so it's weird, if i'm telling stories about, like, when we were in england during and after college, i always say "girlfriend," and if it's later then it's "wife."

it took a while for me to get used to just even saying "ex-wife," it seemed so melodramatic.

and yeah, as i made post-divorce friends i did get a lot of raised eyebrows when i said i'd been married. mostly just, "you're too young to be divorced," and so forth. tho i also met a few people my age with similar experiences, so i didn't feel completely freak-show.

and actually to be crass about it, i think it was a plus in some ways in terms of dating. because by then, i was 30, and a lot of women my age who hadn't been married were starting to think about it, and i'd already sort of proved my willingness to commit.

"at least SOMEBODY could stand the bastard"

"you're too young to be divorced,"

I used to respond to this (I was divorced when I was 26, iirc) with, "It would appear that I was married too young."

"at least SOMEBODY could stand the bastard"

and possibly trained me to make the bed. (which wasn't actually true -- that didn't come until the current marriage.)

Yeah, I think that effect has helped at least one person I know -- it is definitely a big "not scared of commitment" sign

Funny, I just found out today that my divorce finally went through back in December. The separation began (without relapse) in Aug '06 though... so I've processed it plenty and dated a fair amount since then.

I think the amputation analogy is quite apt. Even if I don't want her back, there's still something missing.

I waited til I was in my 30s to get married, and I meant it. Unfortunately I married someone in her 20s, and I think she felt like divorce was a very simple option. In face, she continually referred to it as a breakup.

Breakups and divorces really aren't the same thing IMO.

The good news is that even in my mid 30s, I've continued to grow a great deal in ways I likely would not have, had I stayed in that relationship. It's been a difficult few years emotionally, but I have a lot to show for it.

how long did the legal process take? i know it can vary. i was a little shocked at how fast ours went through. since it was uncontested and there was nothing for a court to resolve, it was only like 60 days. was finalized a day or two after valentine's day, which was a nice little extra dagger. (all our legal paperwork and everything was done by a lawyer friend of ours who kindly and firmly refused to take any payment.)

and yeah, once it was over, the feeling of it stayed raw for quite a while. by now it's more like well-healed scar tissue -- i can think about it without getting mad or sad or all the other things it made me. but that took some years.

Time heals all wounds. At least, as you said, to the scar tissue phase.

We did the paperwork ourselves, and we waited several years to do it. It would have been pretty fast if there weren't so many "i's" to dot and "t's" to cross. As it was, we finally had to go into the courthouse together and get some free assistance. After that, it apparently took about 2 weeks. I only know it's done because I called and asked.

Either way, it's an empty finale.

we were together 5 years before we got married, then married for 5.

We buy scrap gold in our shop, so a lot of the time people come in to sell their wedding bands. A lot our dated ten years ago.
It is strange to see how many younger people, compared to my age, are going through a divorce.
A divorce seems so painful, especially when kids are involved. The ties can never be completely broken cause of the kids. Everyone is dragged into it. I hope it never happens to me. But if it does, it does.

a lot are i meant

my friend is getting divorced after being married 4 years. she told me today over gchat and i was just kind of like "ok" and didn't push for any more info. she just wanted me to know but i knew this would happen (should have sooner tbh) because i even tried to tell her before she got married i didn't think it was such a great idea (i didn't try *that* hard though, kinda rude). don't know what to do for her now though ˘\(o_º)/˘

yeah, i'm now old enough to have lived through several of my straight friends divorces and all I can say as the bystander to this is that people who are going to get married should really talk together- a lot- about what being married means to each party, and what it doesn't mean. I have now seen a mis-match of expectations about marriage and crushing disappointment wreck at least three marriages (tho happily other straight friends are able to keep on trucking). Sucks.

Breakups and divorces really aren't the same thing IMO.

I dunno, I think it depends on the nature or duration of the relationship.

harbl i think u just need to be like hey i'm here if you need anything; maybe check in with her every couple weeks unless she tells you to step off

yeah we don't even live in the same state anymore so it's hard. she seemed like she just needed something to occupy her time so i'm kinda like uh, can't help u. fortunately they already lived separate because she's still in school and he works in another city. i dunno i don't really have a problem just like wow, what would i do, you know?

it happens, rite

is that why they're divorcing?

send her some flowers or a nice present imo

from my friends' experience - with both divorces and break ups of really long-term relationships - the things that make it the hardest are when kids or shared property (houses, businesses) are involved.

Call all Destroyer's advice is good.

i don't even know exactly why. i really didn't ask. i figured she would tell me sometime and i don't really have my own curiosity about this shit (not a gossiper? i don't know). i can guess well enough. they don't have any property either which is good! this is gonna be a breeze really

for you or for your friend?

for her! not really but a lot better than it could be

not a problem for me if i'm not making this clear. just thinkin baout things, wishing i could have more empathy sometimes

did they try seeing a therapist together? i have found it to be very helpful, but sometimes things are too far gone.

nah i don't think it can be repaired, i think it might be for the best in the long run tbh

If they're not even living in the same area, unless they had definite plans to do so in the future, I don't see the point in being married/in a relationship.

well some people see points in different things i guess

yes they do, but at that point, if it were me, I'd be asking myself a bunch of questions.

i don't think distance had that much to do with it but i'm not gonna spell out all the other reasons for the internet

Two of my very old good friends finalized their divorce yesterday. They were kind of my substitute parents when I moved away from home after high school to start college, both about 6 or 7 years older than I am, but always seemed far more wise than their age would dictate. I was there for the birth of their first child, spent many many hours at their house, and even sublet it from them when they moved to Denver for a couple years. A few months ago, the wife left for another guy. It wasn't sinister or anything. She wasn't sneaking around. But their relationship was clearly over. The husband had been pretty upbeat about it and going with the flow of the divorce... UNTIL TODAY. Maybe it was too soon, but the (ex) wife announced her new engagement today on Facebook and he FLIPPED THE FUCK OUT calling everyone who was congratulating her "false friends" and "inappropriate bitches".

Yeah, I concede that getting engaged the day after your divorce is final is probably a little selfish or, at the least, insensitive, but it was going to happen sooner or later.

My dilemma is that, while I still want to remain friends with the (ex) husband, it's going to be hard if he's going to be one of those guys who lashes out at people who are still friends with her as well.

How do I deal with this, ILX?

Tell him you still like him, but plan to remain friends with his ex, and that while you will do your best not to have the two spheres overlap they may, and if he freaks the fuck out on you then fuck him in the ear because you will not be disrespected.

You can't be friends w/him if he puts you in the middle this way and you might as well tell him.

That is pretty tactless though, announcing that via FB the day after a divorce is finalized.

Hope he'll eventually cool down, and if he doesn't you'll, sadly, probably have to take her or his side.

That is pretty tactless though, announcing that via FB the day after a divorce is finalized.

Yes, it is. And dude has a right to say so but not to make his friends draw lines in the sand over it. Just because he's close to the issuse doesn't mean their other common friends have to be unforgiving about such a gaffe.

Oh I agree with your advice and he reacted horribly, but, I'm sure it has to be difficult for him and I would hope that mutual friends might also be a little understanding of the tough mental space he's in. I'm sure he'll regret some of the things he said with time.

You can't be friends w/him if he puts you in the middle this way

Yeah, I've done all I can the past few months to stay OUT of the middle of this. I most definitely don't want to be dragged in now that they're officially not married anymore.

If I were friendly with both of them I might congratulate her privately but I'd have a lot of trouble publicly oohing and ahhing and "liking this" on Facebook tbh. It would be insensitive.

My dilemma is that, while I still want to remain friends with the (ex) husband, it's going to be hard if he's going to be one of those guys who lashes out at people who are still friends with her as well.

Ugh, Ive been lashing out at a couple of my friends recently because theyve befriended my ex's new lady, really fast - without apology - and its hard because he hooked up with her 2 days after saying we should break up. Nothing like a divorce, and I'm now just keeping it to myself, but I can understand the reaction. Its been impossibly hard to keep the bitterness and anger to myself. I dont know how it must be for long term marriage bustups.

facebook ay?

how not to move on...

what about people who probably SHOULD get a divorce, but don't? I know a few folks who fall into that camp.

this brings up the whole, "Why get married in the first place?" question.

love.

fear of eternal loneliness & having no one except for ilx posters to "talk" to for the rest of your life

marriage is not a guarantee of being loved and having someone for eternity

you're right, it's not a guarantee.

Tax breaks.

I kid.

I was engaged once. I'm pretty sure if we'd gone through it, we'd have been divorced in three months. I'm not in a rush.

It's totally for some people, though, and I'd never begrudge them the opportunity (even those who announce they're engaged the day following their divorce, no matter how shitty that is to the ex). I wish he would've been using to the separation to work out his issues and I wish she would've waited to announce TO THE WORLD (i.e. all the mutual friends, him, their children) that she's already engaged.

I was engaged once as well, mainly due to immigration reasons (partner was canadian and gonna move to Aus). That ended, and I am also thankful, cos it really wasn't the right thing to do at all.

The Importance of Hating Your Ex

i can see where he's coming from, but yeah tbh fuck taking 'sides'

People who boast about their engagement on FB are just sort of ridiculous anyway. It's like sending all your friends cards telling them you're engaged. WHich some people do. "Jamie and Maria are engaged" with some gold cursive script and a photo of the lovebirds inside. Or possible a little more "craftsy" if the couple has Pixies listening in their past. What is the point of this shit? If I'm really your friend, you're going to tell me about it anyway. If I'm not really your friend, why am I getting this card about your intention to bone one person exclusively for the rest of your life? Doing this on FB is even less personal, and I really wonder about the motivation behind it.

when your parents start dropping the divorce word (when you yourself are in your thirties): still saddens you. but they won't (i hope). still, it's rather earth shattering. kinda fucking weird, cause you're an adult and you should be able to shrug it off, right?

I don't think you could ever casually shrug off something like that...are they already separated?

Nath, I hope this comes across in an understanding way, but does this put your mother's attitudes and advice about your own marriage into a different light? That, for me, would be the weirdest part.

my parent's looong disaster of a marriage certainly informed my approach to it (ie no fucking way, ever, thanks)

What darraghmac said.

Guys you realize you wouldn't be marrying your parents?

Guys you realize you wouldn't be marrying your parents?

O RLY?

I really wonder about the motivation behind it.

PRESENTS

Oh yeah.

my best friend's wife basically left him over the weekend. horrible timing as his father is dying right now as well and she's decided she wants to date someone else. they've been married for 12 years and have a 6 year old daughter and to him this basically came out of the blue; they had some issues having to do with communication, arranging finances, etc, but nothing that seemed to warrant this. very stressful on him (he responded by going home to the UK because it looked like his dad was going to snuff it immediately) but he'll come back. we're in california. he has no money and has been a stay at home parent for six years; she is the sole breadwinner. someone give us some advice here. I'm telling him it's very important he NOT leave the home; she's talking about them trading off week from week but I said no way, she is initiating this because she wants to sleep around, he didn't ask for it, so she needs to find other living arrangements for herself. I also am stressing to him that, though yeah, he's going to have to get a job, she's still going to be on the hook for support. they own a house.

any advice?

Lawyerlawyerlawyerlawyerlawyerlawyer. Borrow the money if he has to, but lawyer up sooner rather than later. It's very important that he realize that getting a lawyer is not a declaration of war or an act of aggression -- it's a way to make sure that someone who knows the law is looking out for his and his kid's interests while he goes to work on getting his head together.

he's got NO cash though. I mean nothing. He was wholly dependent on her financially (I'm not sure he even has credit in his name). Will lawyers see people like this? I have to imagine some will.

Some will, and I think especially in California.

My sister is in the same situation, akm and it's been very, very difficult to find a lawyer who isn't a total sleeze.

I guess he and I both know some lawyers in our social circle, maybe even some in family law, so I'll see if he can talk with them. Will be somewhat awkward since our kids all went to preschool together but he needs to find someone trustworthy.

Yeah, the best way to find a good local lawyer is to ask another lawyer -- and the specialty doesn't matter when you're asking. A real estate lawyer or criminal defense attorney will know who the good divorce lawyers are. The phone book is no help.

very difficult to be seeing a friend thru this right now. i am not fully equipped for it.

she confides in me every day. i am honored that she trusts me, but a little scared by it all. i am not the most put-together person i know.

trips me out that every single instance of divorce among my peers in my immediate social + professional circle has involved the woman leaving the man because they are, basically, tired of their husbands.

Hm. There have been two in my old circle of Twin Cities high school pals lately but both of those were the flipside of that situation.

Don't have any recent examples from my current social+pro circle though to compare...

husbands tend to be tiresome xp

Well this is timely--my sister just texted me "It's done." I think she means filing for divorce, but I imagine there are still some steps left...?

Almost all the women I know who are divorced outgrew or got tired of their husbands, yes. One was actually abusive, but the rest just didn't keep up in life or in personal growth.

8 year anniversary in a month, minor miracle considering previous track record of me being outgrown by gf's

It often seems like the guys are just looking to...coast? Like get to an OK stage and leave it there and not have anything change. But the women ended up doing most of the housekeeping, cooking, child care (if applic), shopping, plus their part- or full-time jobs even up to equal wage-earning status. For my sister it definitely was like having 2 kids instead of 1 kid and a spouse--although it's fair to say she probably shouldn't have married a complacent youngest child whose mother had always done everything for him if she wanted a full partner.

It often seems like the guys are just looking to...coast?

This is the goal, yes.

yeah I don't know what to attribute it to, can't make too many generalizations. a couple instances have been wife-gets-bored/cheats on husband/ditches him scenarios. not so sure about what really drove the others, but in all cases the husbands seem blindsided.

part of me wants to make some sort of terrible sub-David Brooks extrapolations about what this all means on a broader social level but the more sensible part of me knows this is just some fluke of my own personal experience

In my anecdotal experience also, the husbands always seem to think everything is okay--or at least they have more to lose by rocking the boat so they'd rather not make any drastic changes. But that's...the problem?

^^^ feels v true to me, like the oldest story known to mankind kinda true

weird that with my 2 high school buddies it was the wife who performed the wilfully ignoring/evrything's okay role.

or at least they have more to lose by rocking the boat so they'd rather not make any drastic changes

this seems u&k to me, especially given CA's divorce laws

I don't know anything about divorce laws, that could be part of it. I meant that their lives are way more improved by being married than the women's are. The guys usually want to get remarried right away and get back to "normal," and the women can't imagine why they would ever get married again--or at least there's a very vocal strain of that.

but the rest just didn't keep up in life or in personal growth

what does this actually mean?

we don't know, that's why they divorce us ;_;

in CA a wife divorcing her husband gets 50% of his assets for the rest of his life

that's what she's entitled to by law, anyway. she could end up getting more, of course.

A lot of different things, probably too many to talk about like that, my bad. But from what I hear, just not expecting to grow as people or get more interesting or more cultivated or work on their emotional issues any more because they had what they wanted and it wasn't worth the effort going further?

Yeah, sorry for the lol, lauren, but it's funny that your sister didn't know that she had married a man.

basically, dudes who treat marriage as a paper transaction and do not expect to change anything about who they are or what they do?
if so, that's my sister-I-L's husband, tho they do not appear close to divorce

seems weird to marry someone with the expectation that they will later be a different person from the one you married, i dunno

some really great definitive anecdotal data in this thread update, good research everyone

Anyone ever notice how men drive one way and women drive a different way?

just happy to be part of the team

wasn't aware this thread was only for certified researchers my bad

maybe I will grow into it

obv haven't dug into sociological data, any1 w new information on why women are leaving their mans is heretofore asked to post here

this is an ilx thread, not a thesis

― congratulations (n/a), Thursday, July 26, 2012 1:26 PM (Yesterday)

Oh that was the cool thread you started, n/m.

is there a happily married thread? I SHOULD START IT /marital braggin

how about "this is the thread where we talk about how awesome our marriages are"

I said it was anecdotal and so did shakey; I even specified that one of the examples is my sister. I never claimed to be impartial or w/e.

I'm sorry for posting that in the divorce thread, seems insensitive
I'm still p young so I dont know many divorcing couples. don't know that many married ones, either, I just married young I guess

yeah i'm being a dick but it's just weird how the anecdotal evidence is like 100 percent indistinguishable from every shitty sitcom of the past 30 years

But with all due respect, because I'm very fond of both pp and sunny and lots of you, the idea that a man is someone who got what he wanted when he got a wife and now he can just sit back and that that desire is crucial to "manhood" is a) even more of a generalization than anything I've posted, and b) in cases where it is actually true, seems like a big part of the problem?

Fair enough, but remember, I'm a wannabe shitty sitcom writer.

I thought sitcoms were all baout lazy jerks being married to sassy women way hotter than they are

tbf I haven't watched a sitcom in like 20 years or something

Archie grew IN the relationship, Edith grew OUT of it.

"every shitty sitcom of the past 30 years"

Yes we know, we wear their fake corporate logos across our chests proudly, quit hating on our national pastime please ...

Edith "grew out" of the relationship by dying of a stroke, I don't think that's really comparable to divorce

feel like i have a take on this even though i'm a man with a man. 1) i'm basically my mother. 2) i feel like i'm changing/growing faster than he is (i'm ten years younger). i've thought about making this cause for "moving on" but i sense 0 resentment/weirdness from him for my changes/choices (from what i can tell his heart is totally in the right place wrt "supporting" me), and it would be really unfair to him and to me to end things because i have expectations of him he can't meet. i find i have a lot of them! (based on poor models.) i think it's hard to to redefine expectations, basically. (if you're outgrowing a relationship, aren't you really just outgrowing expectations, and shouldn't you be able to redefine expectations if you want a relationship to keep happening.)

IDK, while we're generalizing anyway, I think that "I grew and (s)he didn't" kind of sounds like a rationalization for "I want freedom and adventure not boring marriage"? Because honestly I've never had any friend, male or female, who I thought got more interesting or cultivated over time. I've seen people take on more responsibility, or become better at negotiating relationships, and I guess that's personal growth of a kind but I don't know if that's what's being talked about here.

Or if not "I want freedom and adventure" maybe "I'm the kind of person who gets bored of sameyness"

yeah I dunno what's really meant by personal growth either

ps I am a man

btw I'm male

I've seen people take on more responsibility, or become better at negotiating relationships, and I guess that's personal growth of a kind...

this is def what I was getting at fwiw

also a male

i figured shakey was just talking about a mismatch of ambition. like one person hit 35 or whatever and was like, this is cool, and the other person was like, i want more of [x]

in both cases I was talking about yeah it seemed like the wife wanted to keep living (or revert back to?) their fun/glamorous/dynamic 20s or something. which seems like the opposite of growth to me but what do I know I'm just some asshole guy thinkin baout stuff

I guess I know only a few of divorced/divorcing couples.

In one, they married too young, the guy became more of an asshole than he already was, and the guy joined the navy after they got married, which she never really supported, and she hated the life (he chose to be on a sub so he was really away a lot, plus she had to live wherever). I didn't blame her at all - navy submariner wife is kind of a special situation and not what she signed up for at all, and the guy was a real dick.

In another, guy is a really good guy in a lot of ways and a stay at home dad who does an amazing job of it. But he's also failed to really look hard enough for work since he lost his job and is devoting himself to somewhat pipe dreamy projects that never go anywhere (and she doesn't really make enough money to make this work). He also got all weird while she was pregnant and started going out with women "friends", one of whom was clearly interested in him -- I don't know whether anything actually happened. OTOH since I've known them she has been a perpetually dissatisfied person about pretty much everything, and whenever I was around them she was constantly hard on him and he just took it from her. So harder to take a side there.

Neither of those fit the "coasting" narrative fwiw. In one it was the guy who drastically changed, and in the other the guy has ambition but it's somewhat unrealistic ambition.

My first divorce was because the guy spent 10 hours working with his buddies at the tv station, then would get home at 11:30 pm with all his friends/co-workers and they'd hang until 4 am, sometimes 6am. Any projects, parties, nights out, dinner, movies always involved him bringing along two or all of these guys. I felt I was married to five guys. They were at the table for Thanksgiving, Christmas, my birthday., his birthday...more reasons but that aspect is what sort of cracks me up now.

But my feeling is that wanting the person you're with to want to take your life together to new places can conflict with how you want your life to be. I.e. if you want the person you're with to change and grow and have ambitions and take their life new places, you also have to be prepared for the fact that those newnesses might fuck up your own plans.

that sounds bonkers tera

yeah that is

I mean did the guy refuse to stop doing this when confronted?

Because honestly I've never had any friend, male or female, who I thought got more interesting or cultivated over time.

Yeah I'm doing a terrible job of defining that, sorry. Maybe...you get interested in things that you didn't know about before, and from those new hobbies or interests you learn stuff that makes you more complex, makes more opportunities for future mental connections. Or you meet new people and from those people learn about new ways to be, that makes you more flexible or nuanced in relationships and in understanding others. Or...you realize that all your life you've had a mental or emotional block that has hurt your relationships to people or to creativity or something, so you spend some time thinking about the cause and how to grow past it or heal or w/e. You contemplate how far you've come and where you're going and adjust your mental state to strive for a healthier um attitude to the world? Just...living with an eye to these things and not to, like, what's on tv and doing the same thing tomorrow that you did today.

UGH SORRY is that vague enough?

sorry I was drinking beer and watching TV, did you say something?

I can laugh now. I had my own friends and interests and spent time with both as much as I could but that made for a roomie situation. Then I stopped hanging and was waking up when he was going to bed.

Basically you look at the pressure-points in your life where things go badly for you, sources of anger and frustration, and you either smooth them out or figure out whether they're non-negotiable and then make them the start of a new outlook on that thing.

ilx is a weird place to have this convo b/c almost everyone here is self-selecting for having a variety of interests and verbal skills and a desire to communicate & share ideas w others and all that.

He never thought he was doing anything wrong. At the time I wasn't sure he was doing anything wrong. I finally decided to stop trying to live a life together and got a 2nd job working at a thrift store on the weekends. That is how I met husband #2.

2nd divorce the guy just asked for it out of the blue after 5 years. I just bought a new chicken coop, planted a garden, a fig tree and an oak started for me by my granddad. Thought I was settled, never saw it coming. He went off his meds, was having serious issues at work...broke up the band he started, became obsessed with trying to get a new a new co-worker fired. His schemes kept blowing up in his face at work and I thought he was headed for a breakdown but not divorce.

His mother had been having "private" meetings with him and stopped talking to me a month before he asked for one. I always thought that had something to do with it. His parents lived in town and every Sunday we had to go over at 11am and would stay until 10pm. Then mid-week there was always a play or restaurant outing with them. They called him daily. ICK! This all just sickens me just recalling that time. Weird how you think you are happy in a situation like that only to realize you were just nuts.

Geeez how many times did I use "just" in that post?!

oof parent-thing is def weird

fwiw Jacob seems like an all-right dude :)

YES!

My divorce was relatively painless. We get along better now than we ever did.

Because honestly I've never had any friend, male or female, who I thought got more interesting or cultivated over time.

Yeah I'm doing a terrible job of defining that, sorry. Maybe...you get interested in things that you didn't know about before, and from those new hobbies or interests you learn stuff that makes you more complex, makes more opportunities for future mental connections. Or you meet new people and from those people learn about new ways to be, that makes you more flexible or nuanced in relationships and in understanding others. Or...you realize that all your life you've had a mental or emotional block that has hurt your relationships to people or to creativity or something, so you spend some time thinking about the cause and how to grow past it or heal or w/e. You contemplate how far you've come and where you're going and adjust your mental state to strive for a healthier um attitude to the world? Just...living with an eye to these things and not to, like, what's on tv and doing the same thing tomorrow that you did today.

UGH SORRY is that vague enough?

― check the name, no caps, boom, i'm (Laurel), Friday, 27 July 2012 22:24 (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this is all otm! & not super hard to get i don't think? a relationship takes more work, to be healthy, than just coexisting next to one another. & there's no reason that someone you meet when you're twenty would be someone you click with when you're thirty, because people cycle through changes for all that time. but still being curious, & still trying to evaluate what makes you happy, and whether another person is happy, and how practising what makes you happy fits with your ability to effectively relate to another person, and what would be best for a relationship directionally are all really important. this isn't an eyeroll at schlumpy guys who sit on the couch all day & let things pass by; i think it's just as easy to keep things as they are out of a deep contentment, not out of fear - out of a recognition that the status quo of a relationship is still superior to whatever you had as a single person (i remember vertiginously realising that i liked snuggling way more than i liked a bunch of the intellectual pursuits with which i'd previously filled my time), out of satisfaction. but it seems like a sensible & minimal goal to make sure that something that could ebb is nurtured, & that an affection and magnetism towards one another, an ability to relate to, & feeling of kinship & attunement towards, a partner is sustained, not just counted on. i know this sounds lecturey & this is not the secrets of my thirty-five year constant backmassaging marriage, it's from a history of a comfortable inertia that screwed things up. i just think there is a way you can be better than yourself as part of a pair, spend all your time trying harder, giving more. & some of that has to be in staying vaguely aware of the distance between working out what you need & what your relationship needs.

seems weird to marry someone with the expectation that they will later be a different person from the one you married, i dunno

― 40oz of tears (Jordan), Friday, 27 July 2012 20:43 (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

like this is weird to me: obviously the person will later be a different person, because you are not the same person when you are 25 as when you are 45 or 65 or whatever. even if you think that we have an immutable human core or w/e, your priorities change so much & there's no reason to assume that that's going to just naturally be in sync with a partner's development. i am sure people grow in different directions & grow apart, but wrt one person changing & the other just not, i feel like some of that rests on their inertia (whether romantically governed or w/e).

I married a divorced woman whose previous marriage had lasted ten years. Ours has now lasted 28 years. She appears to have no regrets in either case.

I was wondering what happened there, thebingo. Glad things are ok now.

I feel like I'll never get over my divorce. Barely talk to my ex now as she remarried and has a child and one on the way and is mostly living the life she wanted so it turned out ok for her. I miss her everyday. We've been apart 9 years.

Schlump and laurel otm

^^

Man, so we have our first friends who are getting divorced with child. Guy was a good stay-at-home dad but a terrible husband (got them into debt, may have cheated, failed to look for a job even though she didn't earn enough to support them, comes from a bad home, etc.), woman contributed to the problems somewhat by not wanting to make an effort to fix problems early on before they got worse, but she's doing the right thing by leaving him afaot.

But we just visited them for the first time and she has this new boyfriend (divorce hasn't even gone through yet) who is EXACTLY LIKE HER HUSBAND -- looks like him (tbh a much less good looking version) and is the same dreamy childish charmer type that will cause them the exact same problems. It was actually uncanny and creepy -- the guy has some very striking and specific similarities to her husband. The whole thing is sad and painful to see, and I feel for their three year old more than anyone, because as bad as the marriage was this guy was great with his son and in any case its his father.

One of my favorite law professors, an old guy who had been married to the same woman since he was 20, told me "A lot of people who divorce really shouldn't bother, because when they remarry they just marry their exes again."

My sis never got divorced but she was with someone long enough it might as well have been -- and her ex ended up marrying someone who looked a LOT like her.

painful subject

We were kind of debating whether to give her a "what the hell are you doing?" talk. BF was a nice enough guy (although he was so obviously on his best behavior to impress his divorcing gf's old friends that it was hard to tell), but he was basically a jobless artsy dreamer type with probably a lot of the same personality flaws as the husband. Like, if money and responsibility were huge problems in your marriage WHY ARE YOU DATING SOMEONE WITH THE SAME PROBLEMS BEFORE EVEN FINISHING THE DIVORCE? If not for there being a toddler in the picture I'd probaby leave it alone but.

that sucks, hurting. i'd do the talk, but that's me as an outside observer.

Guy was a good stay-at-home dad but a terrible husband (got them into debt, may have cheated, failed to look for a job even though she didn't earn enough to support them, comes from a bad home, etc.)

First three i understand, but "comes from a bad home"? Please tell me you don't hold that against him.

I come from a bad home too. Good thing I'm not married since I'd make a shit husband evidently....

yeah I think my wife said something gentle along the lines of "take it slow."

Sorry about the "bad home" comment, didn't come out right. My dad came from a difficult family situation too and he's a great dad and husband. With this guy it's a little more complicated -- it's not just that he has bad male role models but that his crazy family is still around and messing with things and causing her problems.

no prob, i understand. It's just that if you've grown up in a dysfunctional family (or are close to someone who has), it stings when i hear or read things like that. I've had employers, potential dates, and others not want anything to do with me because they were skittish about my background, things that were done by other people and were completely out of my control.

Isn't dating similar people fairly common?

A friend of mine came back into town once after breaking up with his girlfriend. He came up to my apartment with this girl and I had to take him aside and say, "I thought you broke up with so-and-so." And he says, "I did. That's not her!" They looked and talked almost identically.

I'll cop to dating the same kind of girl over and over. Sunny's the only one who's not like the others and that's likely the reason we've stuck together.

One of my favorite law professors, an old guy who had been married to the same woman since he was 20, told me "A lot of people who divorce really shouldn't bother, because when they remarry they just marry their exes again."

― bert yansh (Hurting 2), Monday, August 20, 2012 2:47 PM (4 hours ago)

i know someone who is currently doing that exactly

my best friend called a couple weeks ago, i knew she had some news, was super anxious all day that she was gonna tell me she was pregnant - but it turned out she had finally left her awful husband! so happy for her. unfortunately, it happened the same week a v v close relative died, she is having a rough time of it. probably didn't help that one of the last things her childless aunt said to her was basically "my dying wish is that you hurry up and have a baby".

i am sorry that her aunt died, but ugh that is a bullshit thing to say

yeah i had to refrain from commenting on that - they were v close, esp because her family life has/is pretty fucked up, her aunt was like a mother to her. but that kind of pressure is bullshit. idk i think the net result was good - my friend's marriage had been fucked for a long time, but she wasn't able to make a decision and the husb was pressuring her for babies so she'd gone off the pill as was counting days in her cycle and avoiding sex when necessary (so crazy!!!) - but when her aunt said the above, it made her realise that for real she had to get out bc she did not want this man's kids, ever.

First three i understand, but "comes from a bad home"?

Sadly, he's on target. There are exceptions (my dad) but having to carry that background, it is very difficult to shake it off. Even my dad is still suffering from it. And even though he's a really great dad (and I guess husband, though my mom would sometimes vehemently disagree), there are influences from the past that trickle through.

I hope I never divorce, I really have a great husband. Sure we sometimes have problems. But I guess one thing I learned from my parents: even having terrible periods, sticking together is the best.

One sad thing is seeing how many people divorce these days and so quickly. Yikes. My kids are (or rather were) in kindergarten and there already you have so many parents who are divorced. I mean, shit, that is so sad. Some kids really suffer immensely from it. :-(

i hope i never get divorced either but not so sure sticking together is always best. our parents had a long happy marriage but both my siblings got divorced. my sister and her husband split up acrimoniously, were divorced for five years, and then got back together! they now seem happier than they ever were before, like they worked out whatever had plagued them during the first 15 years of marriage. their kids, early teens then college now, seemed bemused by the split but they've always been reserved/quiet types. my brother otoh got married young and divorced after 13 years. he and his wife seemed miserable during the last few years of their marriage and instantly became easier to deal with, like a weight had been lifted. their kids were younger and the split affected them negatively afaict, even though their parents remained a united front and didn't put their 2 daughters between them. both are in their 20s now, doing well, maintaining healthy relationships w/both parents. my brother's ex re-married (to an old hippie-totally out of character) while he remains single and seems to have given up on dating. but he's not pining away, that's for sure.

bottom line is they were both lucky, cause divorce is devastating and should be avoided but it doesn't have to be a death sentence

I hate to sound all family-first conservative, but I think a lot of people don't take the vows of marriage seriously enough -- there's this tendency to constantly happiness-check and love-check -- "Do I still feel it? Am I satisfied? Am I getting what I want?" that I think pushes people apart more quickly. IMO a lot of the POINT of marriage is that you agree to stick out bad periods and down periods and periods where you're not head-over-heels and periods where you're not 100% satisfied (not to mention periods of financial difficulty, stress, illness, etc.) -- that's what commitment means. You agree to do that because it strengthens both of you and your children as well. Of course there are toxic situations that don't strengthen people at all, and there are problems that don't deserve working through, and there are scenarios where one partner doesn't even want to TRY to work out problems. But there are also ways in which bad feelings about a marriage can be reflexive -- the more you think about what you're not getting, the more dissatisfied you get, the more resentful you become, the less willing you become to try to work with your partner to find solutions, etc.

I think a lot of people don't take the vows of marriage seriously enough

i agree - my friend mentioned above should never have gotten married in the first place but
1. her husband made a really elaborate proposal that she later admitted she wanted to say no to but didn't have the guts
2. there was a major incident of his assholery about a month before their wedding, but she refused to call it off because it was her "only chance" at a "fairy tale wedding".

dear god

yeah i love my friend, she is one of the best ppl i know, but when she told me all this stuff i was like.... WHAT ARE YOU DOING. but there were some other factors at play, too.

but she also pulled some asshole moves of her own, in order to engineer this final separation - she couldn't pull the trigger on making a final decision about staying with him or leaving, so she did some pretty dickish stuff so ensure it would happen.

that's really sad, must be a lot harder to watch when it's a close friend

Most "fairy tale weddings" in my experience are indeed a fairy tale, but in the wrong sense

I think a lot of people don't take the vows of marriage seriously enough

For sure. Just about every married couple in my family has separated or divorced in the last couple years (and most of the rest have ended because of death). Between that and having a relationship that seemed headed towards marriage blow up in my own face...well, 'gunshy' is too weak a word. People just don't seem inclined to stick it out anymore. Probably part of the fallout of living in a society that promotes an illusion of infinite options.

There's definitely an obsession with 'happiness' as a state of being that I notice among my friends and coworkers. Which to me is really just logically not attainable, except in moments. and that's whether you are single or in a relationship. you're never going to be permanently in a state of happiness. you're just not.

but it can be really hard for people to know moment to moment if the situation they're in, when it's unsatisfactory, is going to improve, or get worse, or stay the same. Not everyone can or wants to embrace that kind of uncertainty, and in my own personal experience a great deal of a relationship is kind of, well, founded on uncertainty. "Do I know for SURE that this person is the right person for me? No. But they are now. And I feel good about finding out."
"Do I know for SURE that this situation will improve? No. But I want to see where this goes, and I want to do that with my partner."

But I'm well aware that that kind of logic really only applies to me in my own marriage. I can't really speak for anyone else's.

Probably part of the fallout of living in a society that promotes an illusion of infinite options.

― Old Lunch, Tuesday, August 21, 2012 12:44 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Yeah, this. Being married to someone means saying "ok, I accept the possibility that I may have missed out on someone even MORE great for me [or on an amazing single life], and I accept that." Because never making any choice means missing out, too, perhaps even moreso.

xpost

That makes sense to me. There's an extent to which you really need to try to see the forest for the trees and take the long view in a partnership so that if you happen to be unhappy at this particular moment, your brain doesn't immediately go to dissolving that partnership as the obvious solution. I tend to think that people with that mindset are gonna just keep going to that same solution rather than dealing with what might actually be the source of their unhappiness (i.e. themselves).

my parents are a weird example; our family went through a pretty rough time through my teens and twenties, during which time my parents pretty much openly disliked each other. but they didn't divorce because that wasn't a thing you do, and mum had this obsession about 'staying together for the kids'...which eventually seemed kind of ridiculous since it was clear to 'the kids' that mum & dad were basically aquaintances who lived under the same roof. they're still together now, perhaps a little friendlier now than they were, but certainly nothing close to an example of two people in love in any real shape or form. Mum's openly admitted that she does not love Dad. So it's like, well, okay you're together but there's no medal for that, you know that right? I dunno. That made it sort of hard to go into a marriage myself, not really having much of a practical example of how to have one except to, you know, 'tolerate' the other person which wasn't really what I wanted. So you just kind of make your own example for yourself, and figure it out as you go.
but in general seeing my parents experience kind of makes me think there's no real right or wrong situation for any couple, it's just whatever works.

my parents are pretty similar, vg - they will never divorce because it would be too hard and complicated, and financially they'd be pretty fucked on their own. i think my stepdad could have a chance at a real relationship with someone else, but he'd never leave my mother. and my mother has no apparent inner life, isn't very loving/caring/affectionate/empathetic; i am 100% sure she would never find anyone else to put up with her.

man

my parents are so genuinely fond of each other, they are like an actual real life Cliff and Claire Huxtable

Does that make you Theo, Dan?

my parents are pretty similar, vg - they will never divorce because it would be too hard and complicated, and financially they'd be pretty fucked on their own

That's how mine are too - and a big part of the reason i never wanted to get married. To this day, the first thing that comes to mind when i hear the word "marriage" is a woman and a man screaming at each other.

Man, just1n3, that's a frighteningly-accurate description of my parents but in reverse. I hate to admit it, but (my parents') home has only been comfortable for the first time in my life since my dad died.

xxp: given birth order, I think that makes me Rudy, although I'm terrified that I'm actually Vanessa

my parents pretty much openly disliked each other.

Well, my mother hated my dad's guts. As a result she sort of brainwashed me into hating him. In hindsight I first felt guilty for hating him, then I was angry at my mom and now I realize she just fucked up. hah. I still remember that she told me:"I am not going through with the divorce because I don't want to lose our business." On the one hand I find that exceptionally coldhearted but otoh it was a good decision: they stuck together and became happy again (and then unhappy again and then... repeat ad nauseam) and it is a fact (especially) women have a crappy financial deal when there's a divorce.

I think one of the mistakes people make is not only forgetting wedding is about going through bad and good times; but that you will not be as happy trippy in love after a while. I don't miss it at all. Now I have this wonderful feeling of having a better half. Someone who knows me better than I do myself.

Also, I am exceptionally patient and tolerant. lololol (I am not being arrogant, I really am.)

I am not disagreeing with anything in specific but just positing that before divorce rates go down, we will probably maybe see some changes to what "marriage" means, practically speaking? Because the ideal of marriage as being forever and your spouse being your best friend and confidante and also helpmeet and co-parent and co-wage-earner and stuff...that happens for some people but it's too big a burden for all personality types and all the different needs ppl have? Also I'm not the historical expert but that hasn't been anything like what "marriage" meant for most of the history of marriage iirc? The world has changed a lot but the marriage ideal hasn't much.

I have been thinking about that (marriage being sth different now) and it scares me. I grew up with very few people divorcing (around me). So I still consider a marriage to be long lasting (or rather ever lasting). First time I heard about it I was in my teens and I really had no clue what it meant. I just can't change with the current times. Or at least I hope I won't. I want it to last.

actually, the "marriage ideal" has changed radically over the last few hundred years. There largely wasn't an expectation of a romantic relationship in the medieval era or earlier

xp - to Laurel
I dunno, I think it has changed and been adjusted to fit the individual needs of people all the time, it's just that people don't really dissect their relationships publicly all that much, at least not in the society I grew up in. I certainly never would.

The only marriage people seem to feel comfortable talking about is the one you described, but there are lots of irl marriages that differ from that in any number of ways.

I think about my parents too. My dad has been borderline controlling/abusive for parts of their lives, and if my mom were a healthy person with functional boundaries she'd have left him a long time ago but that wasn't an option to her so she didn't. But her life has been kinda sacrificed to him and the ideal of the nuclear family. And like in reality he is just not that pleasant a person, and even if he were less dysfunctional, he would not be an easy person to live with.

I think that about myself a lot, too, and how living w someone full-time and spending the majority of our free time together and cooperating on everything would just be an endless battle against following my inclinations or meeting my own needs? I am not that pleasant, and I am not that accommodating or selfless, and I don't say that proudly, I'm just saying that a person who would be able to stay with me under those conditions would probably not be totally healthy themselves. So...it's probably better this way? For me? I don't know how I'll end up obvs but there should be other options for romantic partnerships that aren't the kind of official marriages we've turned into the ONLY kind for the last...70 years? Or so?

There are all kinds of options. Don't spend years wondering why you don't fit into a box, yknow?

Nah LL you are probably otm and I appreciate that counter-weight (+ your earlier post above). I guess I don't have that much experience with non-traditional marriages, not having seen v many of them in action.

free floating observation:
Even people who love one another dearly and who are a good match in most ways are going to have some times in their marriage where matters get pretty grim for a time and it takes massive committment to work their way through it. imo, that's a given. Not everyone entering marriage seems to realize this.

the ideal of marriage as being forever and your spouse being your best friend and confidante and also helpmeet and co-parent and co-wage-earner and stuff

I think this description allows for a wide spectrum of implementation tbh; for some ppl, it's going to be all about 50/50 responsibility splits and spending as much time together as possible, while for others it means finding someone willing to give them space at the drop of a hat but will be a support system when asked, to something else completely different

Because ppl are so idiosyncratic, you can't really define "compatibility" in any type of universal way. Also, it's impossible for anyone to be happy 100% of the time and any relationship using that as a foundation or a measurement of success is doomed; in many ways I think it's more important to know how the relationship works when people are angry, sad or upset, because that's the hard part of making things work.

stevienixed your mum sounds kinda similar to mine -- I grew up resenting my dad for reasons that were poured into my ear by Mum, only to learn later in life that Dad's evils were blown way out of proportion by Mum just as a means of control, so she wouldn't have to face up to being kind of a crazyperson during that time.

it used to bum me out that I never grew up seeing my parents enjoying being around each other; smiling or hugging or kissing or anything like that. but I will gladly take what they have now, over what they were like when I was younger. I mean, the fact that they go places together on their own is kind of awesome to us now, lol.

Paul F Tompkins described the way his parents marriage was, that they were fun people in their 20s who liked going to parties and being together, and got married and had kids, but once they were in the marriage and had the kids, it was like they opened a present and found a sucky gift inside. And so they just kind of lived out their marriage resenting that the present sucked. (major paraphrasing)
That's kind of how mine were.

I am not disagreeing with anything in specific but just positing that before divorce rates go down, we will probably maybe see some changes to what "marriage" means, practically speaking? Because the ideal of marriage as being forever and your spouse being your best friend and confidante and also helpmeet and co-parent and co-wage-earner and stuff...that happens for some people but it's too big a burden for all personality types and all the different needs ppl have? Also I'm not the historical expert but that hasn't been anything like what "marriage" meant for most of the history of marriage iirc? The world has changed a lot but the marriage ideal hasn't much.

― check the name, no caps, boom, i'm (Laurel), Tuesday, August 21, 2012 1:55 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Actually, divorce rates have been going down, significantly so. But I'm not really sure I know what you mean -- aren't people relatively free to create whatever kind of marriage they want at this point (or not to get married at all)? I think married couples vary pretty widely in how they negotiate these things.

my parents are so genuinely fond of each other

especially on mothers day iirc

oh not just on Mother's Day, believe me

Okay! I don't know anything about the statistics and did not look them up before making that post, I just ran with the anecdotal impression from the other posts that people feel like they are seeing a lot of divorces among their peers. And like I said before, I also don't see a lot of non-trad marriages/relationships first-hand and the ones I do see I prob don't give enough thought to the variety of ways in which they are non-traditional, since they still live together, vacation together, have kids together (not all, obvs) that kind of thing, so from the outside it seems p normal. But that could be because they just don't talk about it & dissect it outside of the relationship. They could all be secret weirdos for all I know! In a good way. I guess people who partner each oth long-term but choose not to marry are making a non-traditional choice, especially if they choose not to marry and still to have kids. That kind of thing is interesting to me.

I know a couple that has bought a (very expensive) house and now the woman is actively trying to get pregnant but they are not married and probably never will be and yeah it is interesting

xp yeah I think at some point if you don't want to live together, vacation together etc. the better option is probably just not getting married. Although there are a fair number of academic married couples, for example, who live apart large parts of the year -- more often childless than not, I think.

I'm also at least acquainted with people who chose to have kids without formal marriage, although I think a lot of things about their arrangements probably are similar to mariage.

As for choosing to have children together and living and/or vacationing separately, I think there are just practical reasons why that doesn't happen that often. For one thing, not having a second person around to help with kids is just going to make it much harder, and I'm not really sure what would be desirable about that.

I mean my wife just took K for a few days out of the city without me and then I joined them later on, and she's occasionally done things on her own like an art residency, but we're a pretty traditional married couple overall.

fwiw having a stable parents and family b/g doesnt make a guarantee of being ok with relationships. My parents are still together, seem perfectly happy, never had any major fallings out (tho that, at times, was due to mum being a bit of a martyr and just coping with issues that came up and supressing rage marge simpson style, i suspect). Despite being surrounded by perfectly regular fam, with 2 broters married with kids, I appear to be a complete relationship fuckup and am 41 and single again.

I mean my wife just took K for a few days out of the city without me

quoted out of context...

As a kid I remember feeling very out-of-place in that my parents were still together. And they still are - and they still totally seem to dig each other. They aren't super emotional and affectionate, which kinda skewed my perception of relationships for a while (I didn't realize until very, very recently that I need a lot of affection).

I fully plan on getting divorced one day. ;)

Nathalie, aren't you also the one who thinks that masturbation is wrong? Or am I thinking of someone else?

Either way, 'sticking it out for the kids' is NOT the best solution imo. Especially if the two parents openly despise one another.

never said it was. it's just the example I grew up with

I guess I just think sometimes maybe parents could try to find a way not to openly despise each other if they weren't so attached to their personal resentments? But then I guess it's hard for me to imagine getting to that point with someone where you're totally beyond hope, because I'm lucky enough to have a connection with my wife that so far seems to survive difficulties.

homo otm the idea of married people staying together for the kids makes my skin itch.

seriously, people, don't do that to your kids! i remember feeling like the whole world opened up when my parents got divorced, like the air had a different (better) quality. admittedly i am just generalizing from my experience, but everyone else itt is too as far as i can tell, so there.

I can only speak of what I know from my parents, but I guess the key part that I skipped over was that 'staying together for the kids' is a good cover story. As much as they loved us, I know with almost 100% certainty that we were not why they stayed together. I sat in the car with my mum when I was 15 trying to talk her into just leaving. She knew we knew how bad it was. Part of it was that we grew up in a small town, both my parents pretty much knew everyone in the town and a lot of the reason for not getting divorced/separating was they didn't want the shame of everyone in town knowing that that had happened. Well, my Mum. Pretty much everything we went through stemmed from Mum's fear of being publically humiliated over x y or z. And the other part was just she was a very competitive person and didn't want to lose. Divorce meant that she lost. And she didn't want to lose to my Dad. From what I know of Mum, my guess is that in her mind divorce would mean that she had been wrong about Dad, and god knows she didn't want to be wrong.

Sorry for livejournaling but I just want to make sure you guys get that it's not actually really a literal pact that they made or anything.

And to clarify again, she was pretty OTT during that period. Mum now and Mum then are almost two different people.

VG i wasn't responding to you fwiw, more nathalie and Hurting. every unhappy family is its own special snowflake; i'm not saying people aren't right to pick up on destructive dating patterns in their friends' lives or whatever, just that "it's a shame because he's a really good father" doesn't have much traction from my pov--he's still going to be in his kid's life. it's going to be better for his kid not to have miserable parents being miserable around him when he gets older.

Oh no I get that it wasn't aimed at me. Just weighing in longwindededly as per usual :)

Getting on the separation train

Sorry. It's not easy, even when it is. It's weird to me to see this thread, because a year after I started it I was getting divorced again. In retrospect I was probably channeling the anxiety of one relationship through the prism of the previous one.

So, having done it twice, all I can say is that it is a very hard thing to go through, regardless of circumstances. Some are worse than others, and there are things that can make it better -- helps a lot if no one is crazy or vindictive, and if there's still some level of empathy and not wanting to hurt each other. But for me, both times it took about a year to process and deal with. I learned a lot both times, fwiw. And ended up happier. So there's good things out there! But I know that's not much help when you're in the middle of it.

Best wishes with everything.

Thanks, tipsy. Honestly, I read this whole thread last night and that made me feel a lot better about things - especially your contributions.

Now I'm about a week into living alone. It's gotten easier but the first few days (even as I was telecommuting) were brutal - I was talking to myself a ton, couldn't sleep, etc.

Finally have pictures on the wall and most books up so it feels more like a home, more food in the cupboards.

Ray!! i didn't see your previous revive of this thread, feel kinda bad that we haven't talked on gchat or anything in a minute and i had no idea about all of this. hope you're doing alright with it, all things considered, i know it can't be easy when there's a child.

i grew up with me and my brother being part of a set of six cousins on my mother's side of the family (she and her two sisters had two kids each -- only one of those three marriages is still together today). this year, the 6th of the 6 cousins got married, and the first one to get married a decade ago began divorce proceedings. we visited her in her new house a while back -- she seemed happy, is definitely better off than she was in a marriage that didn't seem very ideal. but it's still a little depressing and scary to feel like we're exiting that 'everyone you know is getting married' phase of life and slowly entering that 'wait to see which of those people gets divorced' phase.

i found talking to myself to be pretty therapeutic, patience and indulging yourself in harmless stuff is the way to go i think

I feel bad for anyone going through divorce, because I know it's hard. But I don't find the existence or occurrence of divorce "depressing," exactly. To me, that buys too much into the idea that marriages or relationships either fail or succeed, when life is a lot more complicated than that. I mean, some marriages are objectively awful -- abuse, addiction, adultery, whatever. But a marriage that ends can still be a good and valuable part of your life. When you're going through a divorce, it's easy and maybe inevitable to feel like you just wasted years of your life. But that's not usually true. You were fortunate enough to find and spend time with another person, and you shared two or 12 or 20 years together, that's not in itself a bad thing. I'm not saying "just remember the good parts," but there's a tendency to talk about divorce as if it negates the entire experience of the relationship, which isn't true. At this point I think of my exes more as traveling companions than anything else -- people who shared x years of my life until we parted ways. And now I'm with the best companion I've ever had, but I don't think I would know and appreciate that as deeply as I do without the other experiences.

best post

Well, listen, I can totally see and understand that this thread is first and foremost for people who have been divorced or are getting divorced and may want to keep it free of the kind of social stigma and negativity that is often projected on the experience from the outside. So if using those words here was a violation of that spirit, I apologize.

Hell, no. I found the experience of divorce depressing and scary, also miserable, hideous, agonising and any other negative words you can throw at it, and I don't want to feel like I or anyone else can't explore those feelings itt. I agree with tipsy mothra about divorce not nec. being depressing in a general sense, however. Once you're out the other side, you can appreciate all sorts of positives in both the marriage (despite it's having ended), and the ending of the marriage.

Yeah exactly, and I didn't mean to say people shouldn't find it depressing and scary. It is! But it is only one part of a relationship, is I guess what I mean. And I do think that even decades after the normalization of divorce via no fault laws, there's a lot of lingering social baggage, which can be sort of summed up in the phrase "failed marriage." The idea that it's either til death or it's a "failure" is at odds with reality, which is that different relationships work for different people for different lengths of time. I still like the ideal of partners-for-life, and it's what I hope and intend for my current relationship. But from my previous relationships I have years of good and important experiences, not to mention two great kids, so I don't think of them as having failed. They were good when they were good, and they ended when they weren't anymore. I know lots and lots of divorced people, and in general I think they're as happy and fulfilled in their lives as people who have never been divorced. It is hard to go through and hard to get to the other side, but there is a lot of life both before and after. I think it's most helpful to think of it as a traumatic event, rather than any kind of verdict.

Yeah, I just didn't want to sound judgy as an un-divorced person or part of an overall atmosphere of unfair received wisdom about divorce that you guys may have to deal with IRL.

Al, it's cool. I haven't really said much about it to too many of my friends or on FB. Quiet like. It's been several weeks, and I've been living on my own for two weeks or so.

It's for the best, really, but the transition has its swings emotionally. Some hours are better than others.

And yeah, you have no idea how many "can you believe how many ppl our age are splitting" discussions I've had lately.

Tipsy: I'll think on what you said up thread, seems v wise.

And now I'm with the best companion I've ever had, but I don't think I would know and appreciate that as deeply as I do without the other experiences.

Never been married, so never been divorced. But a year ago is when I had to start a breakup with the only person I'd lived with romantically all this time, and that was a wrench. But it had to happen, otherwise we would have been even more miserable the further we went. We've each found someone new since, and just speaking for myself, this sentence here rings very, very true to me. Sending best, Ray.

Echoing Ned about that sentence ringing true. It may sound dumb, but for me it was absolutely the case that learning how to be a good partner involved just that: *learning*.

My dearest friend has had a yellowing index card on her fridge for as long as I've known her (circa 1995). On it is scribbled:

Good judgement comes from experience
Experience comes from bad judgement

One thing that amazes me, and strikes me as a complete failure of art, is the way no movie/book/song has ever adequately captured the agony, misery and horror of divorce.

The only two pieces of art that ever came close for me were season 11 of Cheers and Usher's "Papers." No other work has ever really resonated with me. It's like the great artists of our time have collectively said "even we don't want to touch this."

Liz Phair's - Divorce Song?

It has a bad rap and has crappy reviews but the story of us with bruce willis and michelle pfeiffer is weirdly accurate

Though I’d imagine it’s only watchable for people who went through something similar

One thing making this a difficult task is that people divorce for reasons unique to each relationship — the devil is in the details as they say

Accurate should be “realistic,” sorry

Take a peek at Zulawski's Possession and let me know what you think.

Toni Braxton and Babyface's "Love, Marriage & Divorce" was really good I thought.

It might be that it's just something that nobody wants to think about or re-live. But still, art has gone to uglier place (grief, etc.) pretty unflinchingly.

Season 11 of Cheers is the one that cut way too close to home for me. The way Frasier desperately cycles through all these different stances (anger, sympathy, bargaining, being the bigger man, completely breaking down) to stop the inevitable from happening was brutal to watch. But obviously that's just the sanitized, sitcom version of things. Dunno anybody wants to watch more than that.

xxpost I've never been divorced (or married) but I first saw it in the wake of a hasty breakup and thought, yup, this resonates. And it was apparently pretty directly informed by Zulawski's own divorce. It's, um, brutal.

Gonna cue up those Phair and Braxton songs. Tammy Wynette's "D-I-V-O-R-C-E" absolutely nails the tragedy, but wraps it up a little too neatly. I also give Here, My Dear a spin every now and then, but that record is so petty it's hard to listen to. It captures the anger but not the trauma.

excited/terrified to check out Possession

What about War of the Roses?

That Toni Braxton/Babyface album is exquisite.

Blood on the Tracks

^ was waiting for that

bad example but a great album nontheless

Bergman's Scenes from a Marriage is good, but agree on above that the details will matter for this subject. Also, divorce probably doesn't make the best story arc for a movie...

Shoot out the Lights

I have to say that just for the joy vs. anguish aspect, Blue Valentine cut pretty close to the bone for me.

Kramer vs Kramer?
As a child of divorce, the subject holds no entertainment value to me. I suppose there’s a measure of catharsis in there somewhere but I’d rather just go for a walk

Also, divorce probably doesn't make the best story arc for a movie...

The subject definitely doesn't sell itself, but I think there's an interesting tension in just trying to survive divorce. The daily struggles and hurdles. It's not just this passive experience, it's a ton of work and obstacles to navigate. It's an enormous trial; great movies have been written about less

i think there are several cursive albums about it, but they're not really my thing

https://media.pitchfork.com/photos/5929c138c0084474cd0c32d6/1:1/w_600/07bf23e1.jpg

xp oh yeah I totally forgot about Domestica. That album does nail it, at least those specific circumstances. Not sure everybody relates to the "marriage is a battle" angle of it all but "The Night I Lost the Will to Fight" is brutal

i've been listening to turn around a lot but not because it reminds me of my divorce

it's a great track about a crappy relationship for sure though

kind of one sided though

Domestica is a good one if you experienced a prolonged bout of combative cohabitation

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/13/The_Meadowlands_%28Front_Cover%29.png

Wrens' Meadowlands is a brilliant divorce/break-up album. It's got all the messiness, ugliness, elation and disillusionment of divorce/break-up, wrapped raw and unrelentingly in blinding curveballs of songs. It's killer.

yeah it's a perfect album. Never really registered the divorce angle before somehow (maybe be I used to listen to it so long ago) but every time I revisit it I'm amazed how well it's held up

Got sad to see this thread bumped, glad it was just about art.

Not having experienced it, my guess is the reason that there are so few good films about divorce is similar to the reason that there are so few good films about lung cancer.

what would you say is the cheapest divorce you can get? best case scenario, both people don't really have anything of value anyway, no children, a desire to spend less than $50 each on it, and for it to be as quick and uncomplicated as possible. asking for a friend.

look at your local courthouse's website, they likely have something in the family law section about filing an uncontested divorce. or just go to the clerk's office (may be a separate domestic/family clerk) and ask to file one. i don't know IL law but you may have to live apart for a year first though.

i mean your friend and their spouse

Joint Simplified Dissolution of Marriage, looks like minimum 6 months separation

oh for fuck's sake, my friend will say

but thank you harbl, very appreciated

divorce laws and procedures in the U.S. are VERY different depending on which state you live in

looks like the 6 months separation in IL can be used as proof of "irreconcilable differences", but it's not mandatory.

The only grounds for divorce recognized in Illinois is irreconcilable differences, which some people call no fault divorce. Illinois law defines irreconcilable differences as the “irretrievable breakdown” of a marriage. In such a case, the spouses are required to prove to the judge’s satisfaction that there is a breakdown in the marriage, that all efforts at reconciliation have failed, and that future attempts to reconcile would not be “in thebest interests of the family.”

Irreconcilable differences can be proven by showing that the parties have lived separately for at least six continuous months prior to the divorce action.

god, i hope they don't appoint incredibly nosey judges

judge: "have you tried listening to her? have you tried treating your anger as your friend?"

i'm not sure from that last sentence if you're correct in your interpretation. the clerk or the form they give you will be able to tell you for sure. here when a year was the requirement (i believe it has changed now) you had to have a witness testify that they know you and know you were separated for a year.

i looked a bit more into it and came upon this: https://www.illinoisdivorce.com/grounds-for-divorce

these seem to be the salient parts. it looks like as long as both people are in agreement, it can go pretty quickly:

Illinois no longer recognizes "grounds" for divorce. There is only one option: "irreconcilable differences." Irreconcilable differences needs little definition. Technically, to be granted a divorce, one must prove:

irreconcilable differences have caused the irretrievable breakdown of the marriage;

past efforts at reconciliation have failed, and

future efforts at reconciliation would be impracticable and not in the best interests of the family.

750 ILCS 5/401

The Six Month Separation Period: You can live together, file for divorce, finalize it the same day you file, and go back home and continue living together. The six month separation period is not a requirement -- it is an option. Living "separate and apart" for at least six months creates an irrebuttable presumption that irreconcilable differences have caused the irretrievable breakdown of the marriage.

...

Skipping the Waiting Period: If you want to get divorced NOW and don't want to wait, that's easy enough. You need only prove the three elements laid out, above. It's simple if you both agree. You may use our Quick Online Divorce service and we'll give you a script to read to the judge at your hearing; or you may hire us to represent you in court. You'll answer 20 questions; every answer will be "yes;" ( "yes . . . yes . . . yes . . . yes"); and you'll walk out divorce. It takes about ten minutes.

divorce research typo hell #666: "you'll walk out divorce."

yeah i'm just probably being a paranoid lawyer and imagining a judge being like really skeptical and asking too many questions of people who don't wait but that's because i don't like judges and you will probably sail through with one who just wants to process 100 divorces today

but that's probably a good habit for a lawyer. :)

thanks harbl!

i think i may go full tim heidecker and represent myself in court. it will be the least expensive, quickest divorce in IL history because my partner and i are still pals and we both have a deep desire to not make this complicated at all

i'll be sure to make clear to the judge that i am going for a state record. judges LOVE that shit!

i promise it will be very mundane for the judge. they also won't let you go fast because there are questions they have to ask to make sure no one is being coerced and stuff.

i did something very similar to this (in tx)... all it took was filing the appropriate forms, get my spouse to sign off on them (we were in agreement about divorcing as simply as possible), then i went and represented myself in court. the judge asked me a few questions... just double checking about our division of assets and that we sure about divorcing. it cost me little more than a morning off work to get it done.

that's good to hear! i am still going to try to beat your record, though

Crazy that I posted to this thread 8 years ago.

i received a card in the mail, signed it in front of a notary, and that was it

I did my own divorce =|

It helps that I worked in a family law firm for a year before as a paralegal. Can’t say I recommend it though. It’s like digging the grave of your marriage by yourself.

I also fucked up some fine print that resulted in my divorce getting entered in February instead of the very last day in December which added an extra year of marriage for tax purposes.

I would also advise to take a deep breath, count back from 10, and maybe you'll feel all right.