Transport in London is shit

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...or so I've been told (and experienced from time to time) my whole puff. But it's come to my attention (during a phone conversation with my mum in which it was revealed that my sister and my future brother-in-law is, are getting married), that I haven't heard a single anti-tube rant so far this month, and that luego it must be de facto better than it used to be.

Discuss.

― Gatinha (rwillmsen), Monday, 13 February 2006 21:21 (7 years ago) Permalink

what about public transport in the suburbs?! FUCKING WAGN!

― Vintage Latin (dog latin), Monday, 13 February 2006 21:22 (7 years ago) Permalink

anyone who thinks should be bussed (specifically bussed) to A N Other city in th UK stat

― ambrose (ambrose), Monday, 13 February 2006 21:28 (7 years ago) Permalink

transport in london is great*

*maybe not if you use the northern line

― terry lennox. (gareth), Monday, 13 February 2006 21:30 (7 years ago) Permalink

Not to simply express the sentiments already aired, but I was thinking about this only yesterday, and I agree that anyone who thinks London's transport system is bad has obviously never witnessed the sheer horror of transport outside of the M25.

― tissp! (the impossible shortest specia), Monday, 13 February 2006 22:07 (7 years ago) Permalink

*maybe not if you use the northern line

And the Hammersmith&Shittyline.

― Gatinha (rwillmsen), Monday, 13 February 2006 22:17 (7 years ago) Permalink

It's shit - if you consider that it's a 'world city' in the 21st Century.

It's surely more balanced to compare London with Tokyo, New York, Paris etc rather than Basildon, Letchworth, and Chorlton-cum-Hardy.

― Bob Six (bobbysix), Monday, 13 February 2006 22:22 (7 years ago) Permalink

Transport in London is LOTS better than transport in any other part of Britain I've ever lived in or stayed in for more than a couple of days.

Transport in London is LOTS better than transport in New York.

Basically, transport in London is far from shit.

*maybe not if you use the northern line

That's been my primary line for about 4 years now and I'm not complaining, it's fine.

― JimD (JimD), Monday, 13 February 2006 22:22 (7 years ago) Permalink

Swap you for trying to get out of central Glasgow after 11.30pm any night of the week...

― ailsa (ailsa), Monday, 13 February 2006 22:25 (7 years ago) Permalink

It's people not complaining, and not comparing it to more modern transport systems, that's partly responsible for London's transport remaining shit.

International competitiveness studies highlight the expense of transport, crumbling infrastructure, and historic lack of investment as a negative factor in London's economic position.

― Bob Six (bobbysix), Monday, 13 February 2006 22:30 (7 years ago) Permalink

Call it selfish, but I would rather someone unfuck the rest of the country before London gets improved any further.

― tissp! (the impossible shortest specia), Monday, 13 February 2006 22:33 (7 years ago) Permalink

No, I think that's sensible - at least sorting out the ridiculous cost of travelleling by rail across the UK.

― Bob Six (bobbysix), Monday, 13 February 2006 22:35 (7 years ago) Permalink

OTM. For all the posturing of the government regarding public transport, the sad truth is that I still drive everywhere because public transport is such a shambles—from the local buses that can't turn up for hours in a morning to the national rail network that costs £50 to go somewhere that £20 of diesel in a car can get me.

Not, of course, that it's the government's responsibility nowadays.

― tissp! (the impossible shortest specia), Monday, 13 February 2006 22:39 (7 years ago) Permalink

Btw I wasn't talking about the price. Although the Oyster fares are obviously much fairer, I have got a sneaking suspicion that they're gonna wait 'til we've all got one and then jack up all the prices like mad and KILL US ALL.

That said, anyone who lives in London who DOESN'T buy a monthly travel card is either an asylum seeker or mad.

Public public public money money money is what is needs.

― Gatinha (rwillmsen), Monday, 13 February 2006 22:42 (7 years ago) Permalink

I know the Evening Standard is almost universally hated here, but one of its good points is the current campaign to name and shame unmanned rail and tube stations, and to push for improved passenger safety.

― Bob Six (bobbysix), Monday, 13 February 2006 22:54 (7 years ago) Permalink

i don't buy a monthly travel card!

but i only really use buses and not even daily -- i reckon so far i am up on the deal by some way though given the fierceness w.which they are policin the bendies now this will probbly have to change :(

― mark s (mark s), Monday, 13 February 2006 23:00 (7 years ago) Permalink

Is it not, possibly, slightly contradictory to demand more people manning tube/rail stations and to complain about fares being too expensive?

― theantmustdance (theantmustdance), Monday, 13 February 2006 23:03 (7 years ago) Permalink

No, I think that's sensible - at least sorting out the ridiculous cost of travelleling by rail across the UK.

I still have trouble understanding why/how Virgin charge £75 return to Manchester (with other return options reaching over £400) when you can fly several times the distance for half the price. And why does it take twice as long coming back? Can trains not tilt southbound?

― Sororah T Massacre (blueski), Monday, 13 February 2006 23:04 (7 years ago) Permalink

i don't buy a monthly travel card!

we all know you arrived here just a few days ago from Kabul. the game's up, sonny chief.

― Sororah T Massacre (blueski), Monday, 13 February 2006 23:04 (7 years ago) Permalink

I've not had any bad experiences travelling through and around London for a while now. I don't use the trains much but when I do they look and feel new, clean and seem to run fine. I am even cool with the Bendies, but only when they're quiet and you can get one of those big comfy seats (must face forward though).

― Sororah T Massacre (blueski), Monday, 13 February 2006 23:07 (7 years ago) Permalink

The trains are really good, the tube is depressing.

― Markelby (Mark C), Monday, 13 February 2006 23:12 (7 years ago) Permalink

Is it not, possibly, slightly contradictory to demand more people manning tube/rail stations and to complain about fares being too expensive?

I don't know about the tube, but the rail companies apparently make over £100m profit a year in London, and the cost for providing staff is estimated to be between £2m to £4m a year.

― Bob Six (bobbysix), Monday, 13 February 2006 23:14 (7 years ago) Permalink

T/S: Nationalisation vs. Privatisation

― tissp! (the impossible shortest specia), Monday, 13 February 2006 23:15 (7 years ago) Permalink

Actually, we must have done that thread already...

― tissp! (the impossible shortest specia), Monday, 13 February 2006 23:15 (7 years ago) Permalink

those big comfy seats

I don't find them comfortable in the slightest. They seem much harder than the seats on most other buses * and, into the bargain, the poor suspension on those vehicles gives a very bumpy ride in my experience.

* the notable exceptions to this that I've found are a few of the buses used on the 341 route which have purple seats with ridiculously thin upholstery; but these are not to be confused with some others on the same route which also have purple seats but which are wonderfully comfortable.

― Oak (small items), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 00:18 (7 years ago) Permalink

the tube is depressing

Very true. Resolving as I did about 4 years ago not to travel on it any more was one of the best decisions I have ever made, in a number of ways.

― Oak (small items), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 00:22 (7 years ago) Permalink

Flights, to anywhere in europe should never be CHEAPER than a rail ticket, advance or not.

― fandango (fandango), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 00:27 (7 years ago) Permalink

― Rotgutt (Rotgutt), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 01:38 (7 years ago) Permalink

No, pet. Transport in Los Angeles is shit. There is none to speak of. Come try it and see if you don't agree. If you don't have a car you're sk-rewed. If you DO have a car you're sk-rewed too since there are too many cars and not enough roads and freeways to move millions of cars holding ONE person per car. London transport rocks, comparitively. Off your thread topic, but lending my own obnoxious perspective - welcome or not.

― Wiggy (Wiggy), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 01:53 (7 years ago) Permalink

Transport in London is LOTS better than transport in New York.

Is this actually true? I'd always thought received wisdom said the exact opposite.

Public transport in London is good, but wasn't really designed to serve a city that's growing this fast - seems to be where all the problems stem from.

Oak - are you the person I think you are? Something rings familiar here.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 09:15 (7 years ago) Permalink

transport in london (on the tube) is expensive.

― The Man Without Shadow (Enrique), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 09:18 (7 years ago) Permalink

My personal experiences weigh towards London being a little better than NYC.. on the other hand, I didn't need to get from one neighborhood to another after midnight in London... The "after midnight" factor makes the difference here, I think.

― Dom iNut (donut), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 09:19 (7 years ago) Permalink

transport in london is great*

*maybe not if you use the northern line

kings cross - south wimbledon, last thursday, circa midnight = 100 minutes

but yeah, mostly its good. 24 hour tubes would be nice.

― i am not a nugget (stevie), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 09:24 (7 years ago) Permalink

anyone who thinks London's transport system is bad has obviously never witnessed the sheer horror of transport outside of the M25.

outside london you can, you know, walk or cycle places.

― The Man Without Shadow (Enrique), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 09:26 (7 years ago) Permalink

how much is a monthly travelcard anyway?

― The Man Without Shadow (Enrique), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 09:44 (7 years ago) Permalink

outside london you can, you know, walk or cycle places.

you can do those things inside london too, you know.

― i am not a nugget (stevie), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 09:48 (7 years ago) Permalink

death wish

― The Man Without Shadow (Enrique), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 09:50 (7 years ago) Permalink

the cost for providing staff is estimated to be between £2m to £4m a year

Eh? How many people do you reckon they employ?

― James Mitchell (James Mitchell), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 10:06 (7 years ago) Permalink

trains between countries in europe are always more expensive than flying! eg london > barcelona - train - 180 euros, plane 110 euros.

i cant see train travel getting much cheaper as a result of competition from air travel. maybe we should read my friends dissertation about rail/air competition for business travel between leeds and london. isnt the problem partly that franchising to an extent creates kinda flabby uncompetitive practice, where profits can be made in relative safety from predatory activity, if there isnt strong enough contractual arrnagements or tight enough regulation on the performance of the franchisee?

eg "we award you this contract but will continue to allow you to increase fares/reduce penalties for poor performance, and you can do this for the next 10 years" as opposed to "you have a guaranteed revenue stream for the next 10 years but oyu must ensure to do X Y Z and not do P Q and S"?

i dont really know anything about this anyways.

i guess in a sense i dont really compare london to other cities in europe so that gives me a warped sense of how good transport is in comparison to other UK CITIES (dear sirz, outside of london there are population sizes larger than Basildon, Letchworth, and Chorlton-cum-Hardy). but then again what other european cities are comparable? how does paris do? it might be hyperbole but what euro cities are comparable in terms of geograpohic spread, density of developemnt, population etc etc?

moscow was pretty awesome but they run everything on vodka there, or something. actually it was sort of shit outside the metro, but it depends what your criteria for "good public transport" are

― ambrose (ambrose), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 10:09 (7 years ago) Permalink

paris is a lot smaller than london, it's true. for me it's all about money. £2.50 for a tube journey is fucked.

― The Man Without Shadow (Enrique), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 10:13 (7 years ago) Permalink

The prices are ridiculous, thanks a lot Ken Fucking Livingstone

― Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 10:15 (7 years ago) Permalink

I thought the subway in New York was more confusing (all that fast train / slow train business, and the lines don't have nice names like Victoria and Piccadilly) but much, much cheaper - about a third of the cost.

When it comes to the 'after midnight' bit, in London that usually means walking through the rain then freezing at a bus stop for half an hour then sitting on a very slow nightbus full of nutters, or paying twenty-five quid to a random ex-convict with a 'taxi' who'll drive you home (eventually, after getting lost) while spouting reactionary nonsense at you the whole way. In New York there seem to be five yellow taxis waiting for you immediately at any time, they don't cost much, and with the grid system they don't get lost.

― Tehrannosaurus HoBB (the pirate king), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 10:16 (7 years ago) Permalink

The bus service is great, but they're (now) far too expensive too

― Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 10:18 (7 years ago) Permalink

It's not perfect, but Wiggy is right, compared to LA it's the best transport system ever. I thought it was about the same as NYC although it is more expensive. The buses have got a lot better in recent years, and I think CCTV has made night buses a bit safer, at least I never see any trouble on them these days.

― Colonel Poo (Colonel Poo), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 10:26 (7 years ago) Permalink

lol lol lol!!!!!

again, its hard not to laugh when you are subject to the whims of a properly deregulated market outside of london. First Groups bus fares went up 4 times in a year in s yorks, now its 1.50 a single on first buses. still 1.20/30 in london?

as for tube fares, what is expensive about a 2.50 tube fare? in comparison to previous prices? or are you assessing the cost of labour, infrastructure, distance travelled etc etc and concluding that it is overpriced?

― ambrose (ambrose), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 10:30 (7 years ago) Permalink

-- ambrose (ambrosewhit...), February 14th, 2006.

what's expensive is, it's expensive! let someone else do the math. but yes 'distance travelled' being about 2-3 miles, it does seem out of proportion.

― The Man Without Shadow (Enrique), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 10:33 (7 years ago) Permalink

I've never seen any trouble on a bus in London ever. If you think night buses in London are dodgy, you should have tried spending most of your adolescent Friday and Saturday nights getting the night bus from Glasgow to Paisley at George Square.

still 1.20/30 in london?

It's now £1.50. Considering that, what 4 years ago(?), local journeys were 70p, I'd say that is somewhat above the rate of inflation.

― Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 10:33 (7 years ago) Permalink

are you assessing the cost of labour, infrastructure, distance travelled etc etc and concluding that it is overpriced?

another factor to consider might be the *vast fucking profits* made by the operator too?

― The Man Without Shadow (Enrique), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 10:34 (7 years ago) Permalink

But Londoners moaning about having the best transport system in Britain is a bit boring, I agree

― Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 10:35 (7 years ago) Permalink

but maybe justified on a thread of this name?

― The Man Without Shadow (Enrique), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 10:36 (7 years ago) Permalink

It would tend to encourage that response

― Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 10:38 (7 years ago) Permalink

How does one get to this 'outside London'? Are you talking about the end of the Central Line or that Zone B nonsense at the end of the Metropolitan Line?

Bendy Bus 38 on diversion Saturday. Confused the hell out of me. KEN OUT! etc.

― Mikey G (Mikey G), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 10:41 (7 years ago) Permalink

It's now £1.50. Considering that, what 4 years ago(?), local journeys were 70p, I'd say that is somewhat above the rate of inflation.

But 80p on Oyster or Carnet.

― Ed (dali), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 10:42 (7 years ago) Permalink

... and what if you don't use public transport every day? If you're unemployed or an OAP (do they get concessions)?

― Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 10:42 (7 years ago) Permalink

my oyster seems to subtract £1 on the bus. must ask tfl.

― The Man Without Shadow (Enrique), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 10:43 (7 years ago) Permalink

... or a part time worker?

― Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 10:43 (7 years ago) Permalink

I just think it's a fucking crime the amount of money commuters are expected to pay. If I worked in London, it would cost me around about £16-£25 to travel a few miles from Hitchin into the capital every single day. This might just about be justified if the service was fast and efficient. However I abject to the fact that these people are swiping up to a third of commuters' wages for the privilege of standing* with some guy's armpit in their face and being *ahem* "whisked" along at a comparatively laconic rate over a very short distance. And that's if your train actually turns up**, or if the elusively crap ticket machine decides to give you a ticket as opposed to swallowing your cash card.
Why exactly does it cost so much just to traverse a small area of this tiny island? Why is it so unreliable? Why are there so few trains? Why, if I'm out in London, am I stranded if I decide to stay out after midnight? Why are the staff so rude all the time? Why don't they have a ticket barrier that stops people dodging fares? Why don't the ticket machines ever work? Why is there never more than one person selling tickets at a time? Why are the trains so slow?
Tear it down and start again, I reckon. Antiquated bollocks run by a bunch of retarded money-grubbing jerks.

*or sitting down on the floor where they get kicked
** for many people, they won't know their train isn't coming until several minutes after the fact since all the video terminals are fucked

― Vintage Latin (dog latin), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 10:44 (7 years ago) Permalink

£1 between 7:30am and 9:30am

OAPs get freedom passes and their are concessionary fares for Jobseekers/New Deal

Not having an oyster of some sort is foolish

― Ed (dali), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 10:44 (7 years ago) Permalink

Concessionary fares for Jobseekers/New Deal? Are you sure?

― Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 10:46 (7 years ago) Permalink

I rode the new DLR extension to George V t'other day. I love the DLR. I like the look of the new 'Millennium' park by the Thames Barrier.

― Mikey G (Mikey G), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 10:46 (7 years ago) Permalink

that's fkn typical that the fares are 20p higher *when you're most likely to us it*. it makes the 80p claim a load of old toss.

― The Man Without Shadow (Enrique), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 11:01 (7 years ago) Permalink

>> Concessionary fares for Jobseekers/New Deal? Are you sure?

I never heard of this when I was signing on, but that was a couple of years ago.

― Colonel Poo (Colonel Poo), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 11:01 (7 years ago) Permalink

I think you gradually become immune. It's every bit as shit as before, but I'm just another cockneyfied zombie now.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 11:01 (7 years ago) Permalink

http://tfl.gov.uk/tfl/fares-tickets/2006/photocards/index.shtml#1617

― Ed (dali), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 11:02 (7 years ago) Permalink

I don't have a monthly Travelcard - I did for a few years but I figured with the monotony of my public transport usage (and tending towards going out in the car at weekends) I wasn't getting my money's worth, so I switched to Oyster Pre-Pay. Inbetween I had a spell of Bus Pass + Pre-Pay top-up, which worked nicely for the occasional Tube journey.

Now I just get the X68 both ways (long walk at the Zone 1 end, but I probably need it) and tend to spend around £30-35/month. (Z1-3 Travelcard is £100/mo, Z1-2 is £85/mo [would allow me to use buses outside Z2 but not rail], All Zone Bus Pass is £52/mo).

The capping of Oyster Pre-Pay so that you never pay more than an equivalent daily Travelcard or Bus Pass if you find yrself bus- and Tube-hopping is a nice feature. Now, if they'd just install Oystercard readers at SE London surburban rail stations...

― Michael Jones (MichaelJ), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 11:03 (7 years ago) Permalink

That is definately needed.

― Ed (dali), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 11:06 (7 years ago) Permalink

First Bus are absolute bastards. They put up their prices towards the end of last year due to "fuel costs". But according to Private Eye, this is nonsense, as they struck a two year fixed price deal with their suppliers (or something like that). Glasgow buses are dirty, you have to have the exact change, most of the bus stops don't have timetables (apparently this is partly so they can meet their reliability targets - less bus stops with time tables means its harder to prove a bus is late). I suppose I'm quite lucky as I live just off Dumbarton Rd, so there's no shortage of buses, and there's always the low level train, which is fantastic, as long as you live on the route that is.

The full horror of British Rail prices will soon hit me as my Young Persons Rail Card runs out in March. A peak time return from Glasgow to Edinburgh costs about £18. That's a 40 minute journey. Peak time Glasgow to Stirling, however, costs £8.30. And that's a 35 minute journey. WTF?

That said, having travelled on the geriatric, freezing and slow trains south of London in order to get to ATP, we've at least got half decent rolling stock in Scotland. At least, in those parts of the country unaffected by the Beeching Cuts.

London transport is pretty decent, but then I don't live there so don't have to face all the problems commuters do. The big problem with transport systems in British cities is the lack of integration. The best public transport I've come across is in Berlin. As soon as you work out the difference between the s-bahn and the u-bahn etc you're sorted.

― stew!, Tuesday, 14 February 2006 11:11 (7 years ago) Permalink

Why, if I'm out in London, am I stranded if I decide to stay out after midnight?

dude, you're not.

when you're looking to move somewhere - in london or elsewhere - you check out the transport links (tube, buses, nightbuses, overground, tram, dlr, whatever) and if the provision is incompatible with your lifestyle, don't move to that part of london/wherever. i'm sure there are far-flung places on london's edges that are not served by nightbuses, but i've never found any and wtf would you be living there for? it's not meant for you, obviously.

― emsk ( emsk), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 11:12 (7 years ago) Permalink

jesus. ^^

― The Man Without Shadow (Enrique), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 11:13 (7 years ago) Permalink

what?

― emsk ( emsk), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 11:23 (7 years ago) Permalink

emsk, I think the problem Dog Latin has is the same one as me—the late train back out of London to Hitchin and Cambridge was scrapped some time ago, meaning that the last train back from King's X is something like 12:15am.

― tissp! (the impossible shortest specia), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 11:25 (7 years ago) Permalink

I never used to be able to get back to Ruislip later than 12.15 and that's in Zone 5/6. This was not helped by LT changing the N98's route back in the late 90s so that it only went as far as Northolt. Had to get a cab from there a few times. I thought this was all very rubbish considering the number of tube stations Ruislip has. But then I got a job in town and could move somewhere a bit closer to the action so it worked out I guess.

― Sororah T Massacre (blueski), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 11:29 (7 years ago) Permalink

Gotta say that the Oxford Tube stopping at Hillingdon station at all hours of the night was a real godsend though. Cost £3 to get from the centre of London to Hillingdon but then a £5/6 cab to travel a fraction of the distance from there as that was the only way home.

― Sororah T Massacre (blueski), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 11:31 (7 years ago) Permalink

lots of the ppl i work with live bleedin' miles out in essex or kent (but still 'london').

― The Man Without Shadow (Enrique), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 11:31 (7 years ago) Permalink

it used to cost about a fiver return *from oxford* to london, and i'd often walk from the marble arch stop to wherever i was going; it still costs me a fiver return from north london...

― The Man Without Shadow (Enrique), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 11:33 (7 years ago) Permalink

oh! ok! sorry. i thought he meant since he'd moved to london. or did he not move to london, did i make that part up? anyway yeah, in that case i'm 100% in agreement, links between cities that are not that far away from each other (post-11pm even, never mind midnight) are appalling. i assume it's bc they don't want pissed-up binge-drinkers from pissed-up binge-drink britain puking all over their trains?

but if you live in london, you can totally stay out as late as you want and get home on a bus/combination of buses. except possibly in aforementioned far-flung "zone b" places or whatever.

― emsk ( emsk), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 11:33 (7 years ago) Permalink

BAN THIS SICK FILTH

― tissp! (the impossible shortest specia), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 11:35 (7 years ago) Permalink

BAN THIS FILTHY SICK

― Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 11:38 (7 years ago) Permalink

Enrique is there a reason why you have decided not to get an Oyster? From what you're saying it seems fairly clear to me that it would save you money, and cost does seem to be quite a concern for you.

― Tim (Tim), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 11:41 (7 years ago) Permalink

wha? no i do have an oyster.

― The Man Without Shadow (Enrique), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 11:42 (7 years ago) Permalink

yes cost 'is quite a concern for me' wtf.

― The Man Without Shadow (Enrique), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 11:42 (7 years ago) Permalink

a tube fare for 2-3 miles might be expensive, but not if you go 10 miles for 3.00 pounds (which you could do). similarly, my bus journey saves me a 45 minute walk. i reckon that is worth 1.50, which is after all, cheaper than a pint, but if it was the equivalent of a 15 minute walk it would be expensive.

im questioning how much you value transport, and where you get your concept of cheap or expensive from. how much should transport cost us as a proportion of our overall outgoings?
should we be able to commute from hitchin to london every day? given the restraints on capacity on the train network in london, how possible is it to accomodate the numbers of commuters coming in every day?

why do planners in hertfordshire allow developers to build new blocks of luxury/executive apartments right next to rail stations with decent commuter train services, when there is no improvement to the service to accomodate the increased number of comuters that these developments are sure to bring?

im questioning the concepts that a) we should be able to travel where and when we want/need to, from where and to where, and b) that this travel should be "cheap" "affordable" or at the least "not expensive" c) the travel should be reliable, or high quality, or predictable, ro something. why are any of these givens that we "should" have access to them? becasue it costs 1.50 to get the bus? does that cover the full cost of providing that service? i appreciate that anger is mainly focussed on he fact that fares are set to cover increasing profits for the private involvement in providing transport services rather than covering the costs, but i find it strange that bus dergeulation for example took place a full 20 years ago, and yet an organisation like "We Want Our Buses Back" has only just been set up.
the fact that london is the most safeguarded against the worst effects of privatisation in public transport and that other areas are desperately trying to get round the impositions in place to achieving a similar set up means that its hard not to envy, rather than denigrate public transport in London from a provinicial persepctive

― ambrose (ambrose), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 11:44 (7 years ago) Permalink

(many many xposts)

Is this actually true? I'd always thought received wisdom said the exact opposite.

Yeah, I found New York transpot to be awful. Admittedly it is a lot cheaper, which makes it sort of forgivable, but then when what ought to be a 40 minute journey regularly ended up taking 90 minutes, I tended to feel I'd have been happier to pay more and just get there.

Ok, I'm going to rant here. You know the handy electronic readouts you get on the tube telling you how long you have to wait for the next train? None of that on the NY subway, you just have to stand and wait and hope. On the A/C line (where I was staying) it seemed 4 out of 5 trains were express, and didn't stop at my stop, so even though a train might pass every five minutes, i'd only be able to get on one every 25 minutes. Each weekend at least one line will be closed completely, for engineering works or whatever, and there's no staff around to give out announcements to let you know about that. There's just A4 sheets stuck to some pillars, which are easily missed, so it's very easy to stand and wait 20 minutes for a train that isn't ever coming. Stations stay open all night, yeah, but quite often a station will close all but one entrance/exit, which can mean a ten minute walk in the wrong direction to even get inside there. and once you do get in, you find that trains after 11pm only run on certain routes, and become incredibly infrequent.

Really, Londoners don't know they're born.

― JimD (JimD), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 11:45 (7 years ago) Permalink

should we be able to commute from hitchin to london every day? given the restraints on capacity on the train network in london, how possible is it to accomodate the numbers of commuters coming in every day?

when government decided to build a commuter belt on the basis that the people who lived there would many of them work in london, they kind of made a commitment, don't you think, to affordable transport?

― The Man Without Shadow (Enrique), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 11:47 (7 years ago) Permalink

(New York taxis piss all over London ones though, admittedly).

― JimD (JimD), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 11:48 (7 years ago) Permalink

I liked the subway in NYC, seemed to work fairly well, no frills

― Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 11:48 (7 years ago) Permalink

ambrose is very OTM in many ways.

― JimD (JimD), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 11:49 (7 years ago) Permalink

as i say it's one of those social-contract-y things, along the lines of 'why should we expect' 'free' hospital care, schools, etc. you're own views on deregulation are opaque.

― The Man Without Shadow (Enrique), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 11:50 (7 years ago) Permalink

I didn't use the NY metro much but when I did it was fine. I esp. love that air conditioning on the 6. We never had to wait too long for one either. But if I'd been spending more time there and using it every day as Jim presumably did I'd have noticed the flaws no doubt.

Another thing I liked is that you don't need your ticket to exit the station, only to enter it.

― Sororah T Massacre (blueski), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 11:50 (7 years ago) Permalink

£67.10 per week.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 11:50 (7 years ago) Permalink

ambrose, if these things are *not* the responsibility of government (which has, like it or not, taken a guiding role in the creation of the infrastructure and thus the economy itself over the last 90-odd years) then okay then, leave it to the market -- but that would imply, i think, major tax cuts (that way i coulf afford a £2.50 tube ride). if these things are *not* 'givens (and nothing is a given, point is there might be a large public demand for them), why are umpteen other things you take for granted (eg healthcare), givens?

― The Man Without Shadow (Enrique), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 11:56 (7 years ago) Permalink

Transport in London is LOTS better than transport in New York.

no, no, no! jim had a bad experience being stuck on the c line, but in general it's loads better in nyc. cheaper, faster, larger trains with better ventilation and 24 hr service, plus the lovely air conditioned buses. perhaps most importantly, lines don't go out of service with anything near the frequency that they do in london.

― lauren (laurenp), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 12:00 (7 years ago) Permalink

(haha sorry NRQ I misread something upthread and thought you were perversely holding out against oyster, hence my comments. £5 does seem a lot, for a return fare, though you wouldn't actually pay any more for several return fares in one day, would you? Not that that helps you if all you want to do is take a return a day. My travel is not really like that, I tend to take lots of journeys when I'm out and about, and I pay a little way over £2.70 a day for my monthly z1+2 travelcard. It could be cheaper, certainly, but for the use I get out of it I regard that as good value.)

― Tim (Tim), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 12:04 (7 years ago) Permalink

Healthcare is "the right not to get ill", which is fine. But transport isn't necessarily "the right to live where I want, in nice leafy suburbia where houses are cheaper and living costs are lower and a pint is 30p less, but also work in central london where salaries are substantially higher".

Maybe I just got unluck in NY, but I was consistently unlucky for a whole month. It was upsetting.

― JimD (JimD), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 12:04 (7 years ago) Permalink

Also, people commuting long distances is environmentally unsound. If you want to work in london, I really reckon you should suck up the rent increase and live in london.

― JimD (JimD), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 12:05 (7 years ago) Permalink

Build more council houses

― Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 12:09 (7 years ago) Permalink

"Don't go to London, I guarantee you'll either be mugged or under appreciated"

― tissp! (the impossible shortest specia), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 12:09 (7 years ago) Permalink

no, the 'burbs and the commuter towns were *designed* for commuters! one of the roles assigned to government has been strategic planning of this sort. there aren't that many jobs in bethnal green; but then there isn't much accommodation in the city.

why is 'the right not to get ill' fine anyway?

― The Man Without Shadow (Enrique), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 12:11 (7 years ago) Permalink

Man Without Shadow OTMFM! Why does it cost SO MUCH just to be able to go to work? Why is it so expensive for me to want to maybe see a little more of this country? I've never really been to visit the north other than the odd occasion. I'd be a lot more interested in finding out what the rest of this little mudslat is like if it didn't cost me £30 just to get to, say Oxford or somewhere similar.

ambrose brought up this:

This is true. Letchworth, Stevenage and Hitchin were all built or have become commuter towns and are all currently subject to huge landscape changes on account of new, upperscale apartments being built. A lot of people protest this, citing that the community can't take this influx of people. I reckon the train's will be the first to suffer here as they're already buckling under the current pressure.

― Vintage Latin (dog latin), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 12:19 (7 years ago) Permalink

... I think you'll find it's rail track that generally buckles under pressure in Britain

― Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 12:20 (7 years ago) Permalink

-- Vintage Latin (doglati...), February 14th, 2006.

yeah, we entrust this kind of thing to JOHN PRESCOTT so, well, there's your joined-up govt for ya.

― The Man Without Shadow (Enrique), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 12:23 (7 years ago) Permalink

why is 'the right not to get ill' fine anyway?

It's the difference between the state being obliged to provide people with a reasonable wuality of life, and the state being obliged to provide people with the perfect ideal-world life they want.

the 'burbs and the commuter towns were *designed* for commuters!

I don't know if that's quite true - they became necessary due to inner-city overcrowding I guess, yeah. But being built through necessity, and being "designed" aren't really the same thing. Still, I guess that yeah, it's a bit naive to say "everyone who works in london should live here", so there wouldn't be room. In that sense, you're maybe right that the state has responsibility to make commuting viable.

But then London salaries are still weighted up. So I guess that extra money people make here either goes on rent/mortgage, if you're central, or else travel, if you're not. Swings and roundabouts though, it all sort of balances out in the end.

― JimD (JimD), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 12:23 (7 years ago) Permalink

There is London weighting, but generally and after tax it doesn't really compare to the amount the trains are getting. It's crippling for, take graduates for example who might want to do a low-payed internship or work experience in the city and it means only the more privileged type will be able to do this for 6 months or more before finally being offered a proper income. Not everyone who works in London gets a high enough wage to justify the cost of getting to work.

And yeh, it is a bit silly to say "if you want to work in London, you should live here too" because otherwise everyone would end up living in London in the end.

― Vintage Latin (dog latin), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 12:29 (7 years ago) Permalink

Why is it so expensive for me to want to maybe see a little more of this country? I've never really been to visit the north other than the odd occasion. I'd be a lot more interested in finding out what the rest of this little mudslat is like if it didn't cost me £30 just to get to, say Oxford or somewhere similar.

Thes things aren't a right! They're a luxury! 50-60 years ago, my grandparents lived outside oldham, and went to wakefield every year for their holidays. Blackpool if they were feeling flush. And that was that! They didn't feel they were being fucked over by the government cos they couldn't ever afford the fare to Brighton or Bath instead. Yeah, sure, some people can afford to travel round lots more nowadays, and they're lucky. If you can't, tough shit, that's not the government's fault. And all these people who *are* travelling round more are creating a lot more greenhouse gasses while they're doing it. The world would be better off if they'd stay put a bit more. A good way to encourage people to do this is to have it cost a realistic (rather than a subsidised, cheap) amount.

― JimD (JimD), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 12:34 (7 years ago) Permalink

and went to wakefield every year for their holidays

Oh get outta here, nobody ever went to Wakefield for their holidays! Where's the friggin' sea for a start?!??!?!

― Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 12:39 (7 years ago) Permalink

my own views on deregulation are opaque to me, let alone to others.

i think:

a) expectations of public transport are at the least hopeful, if unrealistic
b) public transport wholly in the hands of the public sector historically has not been overly successful in this country
c) private sector involvement in public transport by no means guarantees improved service and the objectives of private companies (ie $$$$) frequently and unacceptably conflicts with the aims of public transport provision (ahaha which are ______ ?)
d) comparisons to public transport in other countries frequently forget concrete factors eg population density, density of building, exisintg infrastructure, and more unprovable ones; political willpower, general incompetence in administration. and crucially "willingness to pay". this thread has established that there is a low willingness to pay for transport in the form of fares, but what about our willingness to fund transport through tax revenue? e) the british suspicion of public spending and the ability of the public sector to spend public money in an effective way, cf the intense scrutiny that public bodies are under when a tenner is mispent, completes a vicious circle with the inability of the public sector to "deliver" good services and not spend money well.

as with health, there is a certain extent (which in health is mostly very small) to which we can influence our own demand for that service. that makes up participants, not total victims, in the service that we get.

everyday i have to straighten out problems that are engendered by a deregulated environment in which transport finds itself. nevertheless, i cant see the current ethos being changed across government, and wholesale renationalisation coming in. nor am i convinced that it would solve the problem. as a result, i have to try and work within this to get the best out of the situation. control over fares, service quality, dirty buses etc is only going to happen with a degree of regulation. the effects of the market are warped when it comes to transport because there is a captive market for starters. thus first will continue to make profits even as patrongae declines as they squeeze higher fares out of those who have to use their services and can least afford it. the situation in london as regards the buses is pretty much the optimum i think, in terms of what we can aspire to. other countries are taking an interest in the situation in the UK and the situation where large amounts of public money are spent on public transport in Europe, and high levels of service are achieved, may well change over time.

in my own time spent living in london i found the service excellent and affordable. i lived next to a bus route, changed twice to get to work, it took me 40 minutes and cost me 2% of my weekly earnings to travel. This was in my estimation, a good service. i never got the tube as i got to wherever i wanted to on the bus, and if i couldnt get there by bus, most of the time i didnt go - i tailored my lifestyle to bus routes by and large. i got a pre pay oystercard for one off tube journeys but hardly ever used it.

i feel that we dont value transport enough as a nation. we are unwilling to accept how dominant it is in our lives, laugh at those who pursue an active interest in it, expect it to be much cheaper than maybe it can be, and dont accept that increasingly it needs to influence our choices in life in a much more dominant way. our demand for travel has skyrocketed as transport has become more available, faster and easier. but transport is a derived demand. it exists only because we create a scenario in which we need it. i welcome bad or good press about transport, eg recent far increases in sheffield, becasue it stimulates people to think about what they want from transport, and how they view it. should we able to journey from one end of a large metropolis to another to visit a friend, in under and hour and at a certain price? what costs are we imposing as a result of this desire? if we want cheap, high qwuality public transport, how will it be paid for? by the farebox, or through public spending from taxes? are we competent enough to spend money well enough to deliver that service? how do our desires for freedom, individualism and even eccentricity conflict with the ability to provide an efficient transport system?

― ambrose (ambrose), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 12:39 (7 years ago) Permalink

It's the difference between the state being obliged to provide people with a reasonable quality of life, and the state being obliged to provide people with the perfect ideal-world life they want.

These things aren't a right! They're a luxury! 150-160 years ago, my great-great-grandparents worked in factories at the age of nine. They certainly didn't expect a hand-out or "health-care". And that was that! They didn't feel they were being fucked over by the government because it refused to tax the factory-owners in order to give them a life over the age of 35. The world would be better off if people died younger. A good way to encourage people to do this is to have healthcare cost a realistic (rather than a subsidised, cheap) amount.

― The Man Without Shadow (Enrique), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 12:40 (7 years ago) Permalink

take graduates for example who might want to do a low-payed internship or work experience in the city

Jobs that require this type of relatively-underpaid (or even unpaid) initial experience invariably make up for it later with significantly higher salaries...the only reason they can get away with that system is that they're high-demand jobs, and they're high demand because they're ultimately lucrative. Yes, it's sucky in many ways, but you can get a loan and pay it off later. or you can choose to work in a diffeerent industry. What you can't do is expect taxpayers in general (many of whom DO work in other industries) to help you out by subsidising your travel.

― JimD (JimD), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 12:40 (7 years ago) Permalink

Heh, maybe I mean Wigan instead of Wakefield, i always get them mixed up. But yeah, Wigan Pier was famously a sea substitute.

― JimD (JimD), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 12:41 (7 years ago) Permalink

i think my solution is:

move to holland LOL

― ambrose (ambrose), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 12:41 (7 years ago) Permalink

But then London salaries are still weighted up.

This is a myth, or a hangover from the seventies or something. My central London salary is not weighted, and a quick look at job offers would suggest that not many are, at least not in the private sector.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 12:42 (7 years ago) Permalink

b) public transport wholly in the hands of the public sector historically has not been overly successful in this country

Disagree. On a local level it works (and worked) well. Admittedly there were problems on a national level - but mountain/molehill time

― Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 12:43 (7 years ago) Permalink

also, heh, me = pwned by enrique, sort of. :)

Except that obviously they're not the same thing, the right to healthcare is NOT the same as the right to go somewhere nice for your holidays. It just isn't.

― JimD (JimD), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 12:44 (7 years ago) Permalink

"take graduates for example who might want to do a low-payed internship or work experience in the city"
Jobs that require this type of relatively-underpaid (or even unpaid) initial experience invariably make up for it later with significantly higher salaries...the only reason they can get away with that system is that they're high-demand jobs, and they're high demand because they're ultimately lucrative. Yes, it's sucky in many ways, but you can get a loan and pay it off later.

-- JimD (ji...), February 14th, 2006.

tbh i think dog latin was talking about jobs in the media/publishing, most of which are not all that lucrative. it's a small point, but the london bias of the media/publishing nexus which favours those yougnsters whose parents live in london, does tend to skew the media in a white, u-mid class fashion (ok maybe it'd be that way whatever...).

― The Man Without Shadow (Enrique), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 12:47 (7 years ago) Permalink

Guess what? Most people who live in London aren't earning a lot of money.

― Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 12:48 (7 years ago) Permalink

BR did well with a limited budget, much much more limited than today's subsidies. It's always said that they weren't very innovative, but they came up with the HST (best diesel train in the world) and APT (killed off just when teething troubles were being ironed out). They came up with integrated and branded service groups; Inter-City was a particular sucess.

Can you imagine what BRB would have done with the amount of money poured into franchises?

― Ed (dali), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 12:49 (7 years ago) Permalink

Most people who live in London aren't earning a lot of money

Seriously, you don't need to tell me that.

― JimD (JimD), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 12:52 (7 years ago) Permalink

it works

im not sure what you are referring to in terms of public sector running public transport. where is this done at a local level? maybe the rail franchise that runs down in Sotuh London?

admittedly i barely remember BR in a way, but i remember it being the butt of jokes about service quality etc. i wonder if it isnt tempting to becoming dangerously nostalgic though. let me change that to:

"b) public transport wholly in the hands of the public sector historically has not been as completely successful as is often imagined in this country"

btw, this would be all a lot easier if we called it mass transit rather than public transport, like the americans. then we might stop expecting it to be a public service.

― ambrose (ambrose), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 12:56 (7 years ago) Permalink

why should we lower our expectations?

― The Man Without Shadow (Enrique), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 12:59 (7 years ago) Permalink

Becuase we are British, it's what we do.

― tissp! (the impossible shortest specia), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 13:01 (7 years ago) Permalink

"These things aren't a right! They're a luxury! 150-160 years ago, my great-great-grandparents worked in factories at the age of nine. They certainly didn't expect a hand-out or "health-care". And that was that!"

Tsk, they'll want the vote next!

― stew!, Tuesday, 14 February 2006 13:01 (7 years ago) Permalink

I suspected that most of the people involved in this thread would barely remember BR. Ed's got it right, I think with the amount of money and subsidies lavished on the private companies, BR would have produced a far better service. And if you really want to talk about "dangerous nostalgia", how about dickheads who have barely started shaving are still going on about the Winter of Discontent a hundred years after it happened?

― Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 13:03 (7 years ago) Permalink

The winners get to write the history books I suppose

― Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 13:04 (7 years ago) Permalink

haha franz ferdinand, bloc party, et al, he means.

― The Man Without Shadow (Enrique), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 13:07 (7 years ago) Permalink

BR was on the up in the late 80s and early 90s. The Inter-City business unit was turning a profit and NSE was starting to invest in new trains (wessex electrics being a particular success, and the networker designs being pretty good as well). Regional railways was pretty dire and the RR Express (Class 185) MUs were a step down from loco hauled mark 1 and especially Mark 2 stock.

Yes there were failing, Cross country Intercity services and the WCML were in need of a refresh and managed decline out side of the London Inter-City and London Commuter was in the mindset (but has that really changed).

Scotland is the only place where privatisation has really improved matters but that is only because devolution gave the scottish executive control over funding and deliverables and there is a single operator for all bar cross border services. So it can be argued that devolution had more of an effect on Scottish Railways than privatisations did.

― Ed (dali), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 13:08 (7 years ago) Permalink

Plus in Scotland, they just carried on like they were still working for BR

― Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 13:10 (7 years ago) Permalink

I remember BR. It was better than this. Passengers weren't called customers. The next stop was called the next stop, not the next station stop.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 13:11 (7 years ago) Permalink

Aren't patients at NHS Trusts now called customers? Or clients or something?

― Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 13:12 (7 years ago) Permalink

Probably.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 13:13 (7 years ago) Permalink

yeah wtf is it with 'station stop'?

― The Man Without Shadow (Enrique), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 13:19 (7 years ago) Permalink

because trains very often stop when they are not at stations.

― emsk ( emsk), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 13:30 (7 years ago) Permalink

Well, they do now, they didn't when they were nationalised - where's me cloth cap and ferret?

― Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 13:32 (7 years ago) Permalink

but they wdn't announce that, 'the next pointless, unplanned stop will be midway between royston and baldock...', they may as well stick to 'the next stop' and try to raise their game.

― The Man Without Shadow (Enrique), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 13:32 (7 years ago) Permalink

JimD, being able to work is a necessity. There are more jobs in London than in Stevenage, and this is normal because Stevenage is a commuter/overflow town. It's the 21st century and as Ambrose touched upon, other countries are light years ahead of us in providing clean, relatively inexpensive and reliable public transport. Getting around Holland or France or Germany is a pleasure compared to trekking around a small section of the south-east of england.

― Vintage Latin (dog latin), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 13:36 (7 years ago) Permalink

ok so why was were the railways privatised?

two possibilities spring to mind:
a) a belief that private sector involvement would bring about improved service

b) to reduce the burden on the public purse

maybe a) was misguided, and b) time will tell whether public spending on railways overall has increased or decreased overall since privatisation. but presumably there must have been sonme truth in the above, to bring about the desire change. were the tories going against the wishes of the electorate as a whole in 1994? these are questions not smart alec rhetoric, i think i might come over a bit know it all when writing on here, but the opposite is true, i know very little, but am interested in the sort of assumptions that transport debates throw up.

― ambrose (ambrose), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 14:05 (7 years ago) Permalink

Both A and B were part of the theory. However, quick money for tax cuts leading up to the '97 election is another useful fact to remember.

― Ed (dali), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 14:07 (7 years ago) Permalink

Also, Thatcherite Liberal Ideaology.

― Ed (dali), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 14:07 (7 years ago) Permalink

I don't think anyone actually believed those things, they just claimed to believe them.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 14:10 (7 years ago) Permalink

i love 'next station stop', such a tacit admission that only some of the stops are scheduled

i dont love, "i'm colin, im your customer service manager for your journey today"

i hate britains replacement of 'the' with 'your', its an americanization i cant stand.

― terry lennox. (gareth), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 14:14 (7 years ago) Permalink

eg:

why should we lower our expectations?

indeed! i dont know, really. how do we exercise our demand for higher and higher quality in eg clothes shopping? generally by going to a different shop if one doesnt meet our expectations. as this sort of competition a) i dont think can really exist b) hasnt materialised (it seems to be easier to buy up small bus operators and create monopolies rather than trying to meet customers expectations) we are in a strange position when it comes to what we can expect from transport. the captive nature of the market skews things a great deal. i think high expectations are positive in a way but i think that unrealistic expectations can lead to a sort of detached hectoring (im thinking of groups other than ILX btw) that divorced from many of the facts or realities of the situation means that a solution isnt going to be reached.

the distinction between "passengers" and "customers" is quite interesting. what is a "passenger"? why is someone getting on a First bus., buying a ticket to the city centre on an unsubsidised route anything less than someone buying a pint of milk in Tescos?

― ambrose (ambrose), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 14:15 (7 years ago) Permalink

(Stevenage may be commutery now, but was expressly designed as somewhere where people could cycle to work! The guy who planned all the cycletracks died a v. bitter man.)

― Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 14:15 (7 years ago) Permalink

ok so why was were the railways privatised?
two possibilities spring to mind:
a) a belief that private sector involvement would bring about improved service
b) to reduce the burden on the public purse

You forgot by far the most important factor:

c) IDEOLOGY

― Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 14:18 (7 years ago) Permalink

specifically this one:

Also, Thatcherite Liberal Ideaology.

-- Ed (dal...), February 14th, 2006 2:07 PM. (later) (link)

― Ed (dali), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 14:20 (7 years ago) Permalink

Oops, yes, that's the one

― Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 14:21 (7 years ago) Permalink

gotta defer to man like jerry on this.

― The Man Without Shadow (Enrique), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 14:33 (7 years ago) Permalink

how does rail privatisation differ from other privatisations that have taken place in terms of suitability for privatisation, genesis of the desire to privatise, public opinion on the desirability of doing so, success of the privatisation? was rail privatisation something that formed part of the tories (1992?) manifesto? did it run counter to popular opinion? was it sneaked in after they had been elected? did it lead to their downfall come 1997?

― ambrose (ambrose), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 16:18 (7 years ago) Permalink

the effects of the privatization (eg, total lack of track maintenance), weren't altogether apparent in '97.

― The Man Without Shadow (Enrique), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 16:23 (7 years ago) Permalink

Rail privatisation was rushed and cocked up. They never really decided whether the competition was meant to be rail vs rail or rail vsw other modes and it. Other privatisations had clear ways of promoting free markets and thus competition although telelcoms needed a big stick to make BT let go; gas has been a fiasco, with firms able to charge vastly inflated prices; water had brief sucess until the costs of upgrading crumbling infrastructure killed off profits (and caused a few water companies to be abandoned by their investors and turned into not profit making trusts); steel allowed the mass production of steel in the UK to be shut off (although you can argue that that was inevitable); the privatised rump of UK Coal has managed the decline of the remaining pits very well and the privatised nuclear industry had to be bailed out.

So privatisation of the railways has been on a par with other privatisations, really.

I don't remember if it was part of the 1992 manifesto, probably yes, it was deeply unpopular though, however everything the Tories did was deeply unpopular by about 1993, the tories could have given every voter solid gold bricks in 1997 and still not got re-elected.

― Ed (dali), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 16:27 (7 years ago) Permalink

i wonder if the effects of privatisation are apparent now. what timescale is appropriate for decent appraisal of the success of such a thing? is it french revolution style? is it inconceivable that privatisation, maybe with more regulation than currently allowed for, could end up creating the most workable solution in the long term? 10 years seems a bit short in terms of assessing this sort of thing. thinking about russia, which is my other obsession, the effects of the ending of communism are generally held to be stil lto be fully understood or realised, and that currently the country is in a transition period. if what we are now currently experiencing could be viewed as a similar transition period, should we hold fire on judging the success of privatisation of transport in the UK?

― ambrose (ambrose), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 16:40 (7 years ago) Permalink

No. You can't go anywhere.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 16:41 (7 years ago) Permalink

And it's getting worse rather than better.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 16:43 (7 years ago) Permalink

that 'french revolution' line is a load of fucking shit used to prop up a murderous regime in china.

― The Man Without Shadow (Enrique), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 16:44 (7 years ago) Permalink

As someone mentioned, rail privatisation is foolish because there's no competition, hence franchisees can let the whole thing go to hell if they want. A company like, say, BT has to continue to provide a decent service because everyone would fuck off elsewhere otherwise. (xposts)

If there was a way to open up rail franchises to proper competition I'd be interested - no one whinges about airlines being privately-owned and air travel is cheaper than it's ever been.

Is South East Trains currently in public hands? I know its got immeasurably better since they stripped Connex of the franchise.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 16:45 (7 years ago) Permalink

It's amusing how the British Right are forever sneering at the EU (and Johnny Foreigner in general) for all the corruption and bribery and backhanders when rail privatisation was one of the crimes of the century - it's the sort of thing that, when it happens in somewhere like Kenya, they shake their heads and say, "Corruption is endemic in these countries", over here the crooks just get knighthoods

― Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 18:51 (7 years ago) Permalink

From before theoutage:

The problem is is that privatisation has turned the railways into a political football, government meddling has increased by several orders of magnitude. We are on our 4 th regulatory regime since privatisation. Privatisation has made the railways something for which every government now must find a quick fix for rather than actually thinking long term, as they should do, the only way the railways can get better.

The problem with the railways is that they are and artificial and imperfect market and they never can be anything other than that. You need look only at the ORCATS systems of apportioning rail revenues to operators n the same route and observe how this has distorted the market. Incentives have to be manufactured, and they cost the taxpayer dear, when that money could be going into improtant infrastructure improvement.s There can only be a role for private sector firms as service delivery companies, doing a fixed job for a fixed contract. Nothing else will really work for the railways, except maybe open access operators filling in gaps that the state operator does not think will be viable.

― Ed (dali), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 18:56 (7 years ago) Permalink

SET is in public hands, but not for much longer.

― Ed (dali), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 18:57 (7 years ago) Permalink

(many xposts, again...sorry)

JimD, being able to work is a necessity

Yep, or at least an income is. And if you're truly unable to find work, then the state will give you money. But you're not actually talking about not being able to work, you're talking about not being able to get a specific job which you want to get without first getting experience in a low-paid environment in a location which costs you money to get to. All I'm saying is, if you don't like that, you can get another job. But what, are you claiming there are either NO JOBS AT ALL close to where you live, or that you CAN'T POSSIBLY MOVE to a place where there are jobs nearby? If that's the case, fair enough, the state should maybe subsidise you. But I don't believe it is.

(And also, living within london and having a low salary is perfectly possible anyway, I lived in London on a retail salary (9.5-10.5k) for a good few years, and I know plenty of other people who've done the same...in fact a couple of them worked in bookshops and eventually made enough contacts that way to get jobs in publishing, so the low-paid internship isn't the only way in there either).

― JimD (JimD), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 19:11 (7 years ago) Permalink

should we hold fire on judging the success of privatisation of transport in the UK?

The murder by privatisation of the British transport network was one of the great crimes against humanity of the Thatcher years.

― Gatinha (rwillmsen), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 19:12 (7 years ago) Permalink

gosh well you convinced me that 10 years is a perfectly long amount of time to judge whether the privatisation has or will be judged a success or not. of course, this sort of matter is not complex in the slightest, and there any possibile outcomes or peverse effects have all clearly been exposed, and the situation cannot become better, at all.

im talking about the theory of opening up railway networks to private sector involvement. there is a difference between whether one should private, or partially deregulate, and how one should do so.

the man who devised the scheme to privatise the railways in britain is possibly even angrier than you lot about the way in which it was done.

― ambrose (ambrose), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 19:31 (7 years ago) Permalink

Well Trotsky wasn't too pleased with the way USSR turned out but look before you leap an' all that

― Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 19:35 (7 years ago) Permalink

When I was a kid in Sheffield it cost tuppence to go anywhere by bus. Now it costs £1.50. To get to the centre of Sheffield for fuck's sake. For anyone who has spent any time in this country over the last twenty years, privatisation is a daily disaster.

― Gatinha (rwillmsen), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 19:53 (7 years ago) Permalink

maybe they might have carried that on a bit if it hadnt been subsidised to the tune of 76% of total costs...

― ambrose (ambrose), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 20:01 (7 years ago) Permalink

Bus fares in Sheffield in the 1970s were unusually low for Britain. In 1982 the fare for an average-length bus journey in South Yorkshire was 7p; in other cities it ranged from 27p to 45p.

(this is from Understanding Systems Failures by Bignell and Fortune, which has a chapter on South Yorkshire's bus fares policy in the 1970s, and coincidentally sits on the bookcase next to my computer)

If you want to know much about the history of British Rail in the 70s and 80s, your best bet is to find a library that has a good set of back-issues of Modern Railways magazine - that's where *I* learned most of it from, at least.

In the 70s the primary BR policy was "management for decline" - the concept that rail traffic was declining continuously and would never recover, and therefore replacement and modernisation should be done on the basis that capacity could and should be decreased. Over the long term this has been shown to be completely wrong, but a large part of the network is running as redesigned during the "management for decline" period. In particular, a large number of main lines and major stations still are operated using signalling and track layouts designed during this period, and this is now causing serious capacity problems.

(off the top of my head: Kings Cross and the ECML as far as Doncaster; most of the Great Western main line, apart from Paddington and Didcot; most of the lines around Birmingham; the WCML north of Crewe; pretty much all of central Scotland; pretty much all of the South London suburban network)

― Forest Pines (ForestPines), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 20:40 (7 years ago) Permalink

Stop moaning, Leeds has just lost out on it's Supertram system which would as the money had to be diverted to London to improve the transport infrastructure for the Olympics.

― Paul Kelly (kelly), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 05:37 (7 years ago) Permalink

The management for decline was also the basis on which the railways were privatised. One reason that they were privatised was that it was obvious that at some point within the next 25 years the railways would fall apart and any government would not want to be seen to preside over that. Unfortunately an economic boom and a change in the British attitude towards travel accellerated the implosion. Now it can be argued that the private TOCs were better able to respond to this change in fortunes much better than BR ever would have done. However the infrastructure company, which had taken the worst aspects of BR management and merged them with a rather cavalier entrepreneurial spirit, was completely unable to cope.

It is very hard to judge privatisation. It cant be done over the ten years of privatisation as there have been at least 4 major re-organisations of the structure of the privatised railway system since privatisation. It is not a private enterprise either. Government money and interference are present at all levels of the industry (apart from, possibly, in the ROSCOs although HST2 will change that). Now, at least we are getting a structure that may work. The TOCs are now effectively service delivery companies running on the state owned infrastructure and Open Access operators are starting, in a small way, to be permitted to provide the innnovation needed to replace 80s service patterns. May be this will work. It's not so much the privatisation itself (although I am opposed to it in principle) it's the fact that it has been one long experiment to find a structure that works.

In Europe privatisations have happened in a very different way. Germany is a good contrasting example. There regional goverenments were given control of regional rail services and These were 'Franchised' (ineffect contracted) out to private operators or to the State run rail company. National services reamined in the public sector although the State owned operator was instructed to take a more commercial approach, to prepare itself for privatisation. It has done this, with mixed results; The frieght arm is now the biggest and most wide reaching railfreight business in Europe and after a number of losses it has started to win contracts to operate local rail services. It's ha s even bid, as part of consortia, for franchises in other european countries including britain. The state operato will be privatised in the next few years but as one large comapny, it may work it may not, we shall see.

It is at least acknowledged in Germany that the primary competetive pressure on rail are not from other Rail companies but from Road and Air and trying to stimulate Rail on Rail competition does not fit with the passenger mindset (freight is a different matter, there are significant open access operators in Germany).

― Ed (dali), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 07:14 (7 years ago) Permalink

Has there been a truly sucessful UK privatisation? Electricity maybe?

― Ed (dali), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 07:23 (7 years ago) Permalink

However that was a close run thing, if it hadn't been for china's insaciable demand for energy we'd probably all be groping around in the dark right now. We were so close to losing our base Load coal fired power stations just before a huge increase in demand.

― Ed (dali), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 07:25 (7 years ago) Permalink

You mention "80s service patterns" - it's worth pointing out that a lot of British railway service patterns have been set in stone since before 1900.

― Forest Pines (ForestPines), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 07:26 (7 years ago) Permalink

Oh, totally. but outside London's sphere of influence the multiple unti 'revolution' service patters really are what hold sway.

― Ed (dali), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 07:28 (7 years ago) Permalink

(this is from Understanding Systems Failures by Bignell and Fortune, which has a chapter on South Yorkshire's bus fares policy in the 1970s, and coincidentally sits on the bookcase next to my computer)

this might be my favourite ever ilx post.

― The Man Without Shadow (Enrique), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 09:19 (7 years ago) Permalink

this ones good for 2p Sheffield bus fares too

― ambrose (ambrose), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 09:43 (7 years ago) Permalink

And if you're truly unable to find work, then the state will give you money.

Assuming this were true, which it isn't, they wouldn't give you enough to live on.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 10:44 (7 years ago) Permalink

but if you had enough to live on you wouldn't be as motivated to find work [/gov logic]

― Sororah T Massacre (blueski), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 10:56 (7 years ago) Permalink

But you're not actually talking about not being able to work, you're talking about not being able to get a specific job which you want to get without first getting experience in a low-paid environment in a location which costs you money to get to. All I'm saying is, if you don't like that, you can get another job. But what, are you claiming there are either NO JOBS AT ALL close to where you live, or that you CAN'T POSSIBLY MOVE to a place where there are jobs nearby? If that's the case, fair enough, the state should maybe subsidise you. But I don't believe it is.

if everybody in, say, ruislip or st albans looked for work within walking distance of their house... you'd have a lot of unemployed people.

― The Man Without Shadow (Enrique), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 11:04 (7 years ago) Permalink

because the state desgined the infrastructure based on people living in houses and commuting, as opposed to living in apartments closer in. we reap the 'benefits' of this three generations on.

― The Man Without Shadow (Enrique), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 11:05 (7 years ago) Permalink

They don't have to walk - they could get on their bikes [/Norman Tebbit]
(xpost)

― Tehrannosaurus HoBB (the pirate king), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 11:06 (7 years ago) Permalink

― Ed (dali), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 11:08 (7 years ago) Permalink

if everybody in, say, ruislip or st albans looked for work within walking distance of their house... you'd have a lot of unemployed people.

well no they'd be employed but they'd have rubbish jobs.

― Sororah T Massacre (blueski), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 11:14 (7 years ago) Permalink

i doubt it -- and presumably the effect on the national economy of london being left to the city boys, hipsters and mp3 girls would be diastrous.

― The Man Without Shadow (Enrique), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 11:16 (7 years ago) Permalink

mp3 girls

unfair of you to single out these 7 people.

― Sororah T Massacre (blueski), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 11:18 (7 years ago) Permalink

Are mp3 girls related to the Daily Mirror's 3am girls?

― Daniel Giraffe (Daniel Giraffe), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 12:17 (7 years ago) Permalink

I was in london for the last 3 days with my mum who thought the tube was great.

― leigh (leigh), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 12:54 (7 years ago) Permalink

The tube *is* great if you ride it during the day when there's not a great commuter rush, and it's not the wee hours of the morning with infrequent trains.

― She's In Parties (kate), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 13:06 (7 years ago) Permalink

We were travelling during rush hour, even being squashed against sweaty commuters didn't seem to dampen her enthusiasm.

― leigh (leigh), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 13:13 (7 years ago) Permalink

weird.

― The Man Without Shadow (Enrique), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 13:16 (7 years ago) Permalink

it's different when you're a tourist. i've not met a visitor to London who didn't think the transport/travel facilities were great. i suppose part of that can be attributed to the romanticism associated with much of it and it's connection to the city in general. plus the obvious fact that they don't get to use it enough to experience enough problems to end up hating it.

― Sororah T Massacre (blueski), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 13:38 (7 years ago) Permalink

Also the fact that the transport/travel facilities are usually appreciably better than the provinicial hellhole from whence they came *joke*

― Dadaismus (Dada), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 13:45 (7 years ago) Permalink

yeh, i used to love the tube too, before i lived here and even for a while after i did. when i was small it was WOW UNDERGROUND TRAINS COOL! then when i grew up it was just seemed to emblematic of london. it was the *filth* that got me in the end, even more than the constant "signal failures". i mean, i dig the city grime in general, but... yeuch.

― emsk ( emsk), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 13:50 (7 years ago) Permalink

It is a lot better than it was, filth wise. But you are right. My main gripe though is th lack of ventilation inherrent in the 'tube' design and the fac that we don't have 4 track tube lines anywhere in central london (to enable 24 h running and express services).

― Ed (dali), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 13:54 (7 years ago) Permalink

and the fac that we don't have 4 track tube lines anywhere in central london

well there's the Acton Town-Hammersmith section and the Wembley Park-Finchley Road plus Metroland sections but not quite the same thing i know.

― Sororah T Massacre (blueski), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 13:57 (7 years ago) Permalink

that's hardly central London.

― Ed (dali), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 13:59 (7 years ago) Permalink

Signal failures used to be a bigger problem for tube trains than overground trains because overground trains *could* pass red signals, if necessary, easier than underground trains could. I'm not sure if this still applies.

On underground trains, after passing a signal at danger, the brakes automatically come on, and the driver has to get out of the cab to reset them. This traditionally was not the case on overground trains, but I think it now is also necessary on a lot of overground stock.

(this also applies to all other trains running on LU lines, such as most of the trains in and out of Marylebone station; I'm not sure if it applies to LU trains running on non-LU routes, and I'm fairly sure it doesn't apply to the other services on those routes)

― Forest Pines (ForestPines), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 13:59 (7 years ago) Permalink

Where is Metroland?

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 14:00 (7 years ago) Permalink

TPWS can be overidden to pass a signal at danger, however on the tube their is a lever that rises next to the track when a signal is red, this knocks a switch on any passing train to kill the power to the traction motors.

― Ed (dali), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 14:01 (7 years ago) Permalink

Metroland is Wembley to Aylesbury, more or less.

― Ed (dali), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 14:02 (7 years ago) Permalink

Also the fact that the transport/travel facilities are usually appreciably better than the provinicial hellhole from whence they came *joke*

why is that a joke? i was just about to say the same. apart from the hellhole bit.

had a presentation today which set me thinking. theres a split in this country between buses as a service which is controlled by a public body and provided by service provision companies, simply fulfilling requirements of the contract, and a situation where buses are removed from their status as inherently political products, open to competition, with the hope that the market will improve the product- to drag buses away from the operations-heavy approach of the past - "we tell you when and where the buses run, and we make them run that way" towards a industry that responds to passenger demands and looks to increase business - ie improve patronage more actively. in fact, i think these aims are laudable, but unfortunately the majority of operators, and it would seem the bigger they are, the worse offenders they are, are stuck (quite happily) between the two - they do little more than operate buses below a desirable standard, pay seemingly little attention to customers needs/desires and communicate very poorly with them, and yet focus on profitting from other means eg acquisitions and monopolisation, cost cuttign etc rather than increasing patronage through better service provision.

these two directions diverge quite seriously, and whilst london is allowed to pursue the first model without the stringent competitive requirements imposed on othewr areas, DfT, OFT, bus operators and PTES/local authorities are going to have to do some serious thinking about the fundamental guiding philosophy behind the bus industry structural model that we need for this country.

― ambrose (ambrose), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 14:03 (7 years ago) Permalink

TPWS can be overidden to pass a signal at danger

I was under the impression that on a lot of stock the TPWS reset is outdoors, like the tripcock on LU stock.

― Forest Pines (ForestPines), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 14:07 (7 years ago) Permalink

I think an overide can be sent by the signalman, however I'm going to see if there is any info.

― Ed (dali), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 14:08 (7 years ago) Permalink

I think we are poth correct. If the driver has recieved a proceed past a signal set at danger for the signalman then TPWS is overidden. In an ordinary SPAD situation the override is outside.

― Ed (dali), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 14:12 (7 years ago) Permalink

So it's still a lot simpler for overground services to avoid signal failures (unless you're trying to get to Aylesbury).

― Forest Pines (ForestPines), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 14:13 (7 years ago) Permalink

Signalling has got a good deal better on the tube. It is a lot less decrepit than it was.

― Ed (dali), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 14:16 (7 years ago) Permalink

buses VS Rail FITE

― ambrose (ambrose), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 16:36 (7 years ago) Permalink

horses for courses.

― Ed (dali), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 16:37 (7 years ago) Permalink

when i saw how much it cost to go to Manchester and back i really thought about taking a coach, or even the Megabus.

in fact i've just looked on National Express website and you can go from Golders Green to Manchester in just over 4 hours, which is nearly twice the journey time of a Pendolino BUT coming back the train and coach would roughly take the same time (both around 4 hours, according to the timetables) which makes no sense to me at all. and the NE return is half the price of the train.

ridiculous. if it had worked out cheaper i would've just got the train up but the coach back.

― Sororah T Massacre (blueski), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 16:50 (7 years ago) Permalink

I think it would've as well. a mere NINE pounds to return by NE from Manc to London, in just over 4 hours. DAMNIT.

― Sororah T Massacre (blueski), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 16:53 (7 years ago) Permalink

What day is that Steve? The Manchester trains are much slower at the weekends than during the week, so if you were heading north on a Friday and coming back on a Sunday that would make sense. Also, the coach timetable sounds like they're being rather optimistic about journey times.

― Tehrannosaurus HoBB (the pirate king), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 17:03 (7 years ago) Permalink

I wonder if this thread supports my theory that part of the problem with transport policy in the UK is that it attracts train, bus, and tube spotters with autistic tendencies who aren't able to form the necessary impartial overview.

― Bob Six (bobbysix), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 17:07 (7 years ago) Permalink

only takes 30 minutes now to go from miltno keynes to london euston omg wtf if i commute from MK sometimes i might get to work quicker than from holloway road lol.

― ken c (ken c), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 17:07 (7 years ago) Permalink

yeh coming back Saturday, but why are they slower at the weekends?

I agree the coach time seems optimistic - maybe they should introduce a coach lane on some motorways ala bus lanes.

― Sororah T Massacre (blueski), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 17:08 (7 years ago) Permalink

ridiculous or just intermodal competition? megabus is fine, but just cold and no where to put luggage. Train is just a luxury version of gettign the coach. Rail strikes me as the indulgent option for intercity travel, when i cant be arsed gettign the coach type thing. i frequently take that option, but ive given up being freaked out by prices. rail prices appear to occupy the space that air travel did until the low cost carriers came in. having said that, whiolst the saver ticket still exists then there is still scope for cheapish rail travel if advance booking is done.

in this point, its again a question of expectations. why do we expect to get reasonable fares on walk-up for railways, but would neevr expect that for a plane? why are we happy to book in advance to get the plane and not the train?
on a wider note, to what extent can we demand public transport on a schedule overall - are we going to have to accept a new model of pre booked, pre determined trips rather than expecting to turn up at any "Public Transport Access Node" and get on some form of transport? how viable or important is it for PTEs to subsidise private companies to ferry around fresh air at a lunchtime round some suburbs of a city?

finally, what is it that makes public transport, "public"? if its mass transport, then why is air travel not considered one of the gang? you can fit many mroe people on a plane than a coach for instance. so if its not a question of sheer numbers, is it more a question of importance in peoples lives - as people move abroad and commute, more frequently go on holiday, or simply commute from one end of the ocuntry to another, is it time to reassess how "vital" air travel is to peoples lives, for example in comparison to train travel?

i think the treatment of air travel as a seperate component, distinct from other forms of maass transport, as one that has no impact other than a handy effect of developing local economy/growth blah blah blah is not a positive thing. it needs to be considered in the light of every other mode of inter city transport, and i get the feeling that there just isnt full strategic thinking devoted to what sort of air transport network the UK needs and how it is goign to be brought aboutm ratehr than just "you want to build an airport? awesome!!!!" type thing that i have a hunch predominates at the mo

― ambrose (ambrose), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 17:14 (7 years ago) Permalink

I came home from manchester mid-january, thursday afternoon with 2 days notice, and only paid £12.50. It all seems a bit random. Megabus would've cost me £8 and taken twice as long (well, 4 hrs vs 2hr15).

― JimD (JimD), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 17:15 (7 years ago) Permalink

This talk of coaches reminds me of the *Jelly Bus that used to run overnight from Glasgow to London for about £8 or sumthin'

(*so called because in order to endure the mind-numbing boredom of it, half the passengers were on Temazepam, which also had the happy side effect that they wouldn't:
a) Talk to you
b) Fight you)

― Dadaismus (Dada), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 17:18 (7 years ago) Permalink

I was looking into going to Manchester and back (for football) on a Saturday in November/December. If I had booked five weeks in advance, and chosen to set off from London at stupid o'clock in the morning, I could have got a single each way for about £9. When I checked again about five days in advance there were no cheap tickets left, and prices for returns ranged between £100 and £600. Who the fuck would pay £600??? Surely the plane would be cheaper and quicker.

― Tehrannosaurus HoBB (the pirate king), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 17:20 (7 years ago) Permalink

i like the richard soles buses. so called because people who ride on it were all R. Soles.

― ken c (ken c), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 17:21 (7 years ago) Permalink

Public transport means publicly-owned transport, not just mass transport.

Just out of interest, nd I don't mean this to sound rude, but how old are you? It's just that if you've never lived in a city with proper functioning affordable public transport...you might not be able to see its benefits, or at least have something to compare the present mess with.

― Gatinha (rwillmsen), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 17:24 (7 years ago) Permalink

hey ambrose, you may be interested in some of the articles linked at this site -- http://www.lightrailnow.org/ -- as you can see from the URL, it's a very pro-rail site, but it acknowledges the existence of the bus/rail fite and at least purports to own a fusillade of figures showing how much better rail is. (they refer to the competing bus schemes as "BRT" - "bus rapid transit" - which i suppose the london buses would qualify as?) anyway, check their "myths" and "facts" section for an uneven survey into a US-flavored version of the fite, which touches on brazil's experience as well

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 17:30 (7 years ago) Permalink

why do we expect to get reasonable fares on walk-up for railways, but would neevr expect that for a plane? why are we happy to book in advance to get the plane and not the train?

surely plane journeys are bigger in every sense. more distance (disregarding duration), more things to worry about (security checks etc.), more energy consumption...i still treat plane journeys as a really big deal, more than a train journey, regardless of duration.

I think I believe that you should never be able to fly somewhere cheaper than to travel there by train, regardless of all the different factors that determine the price of a ticket (time of day, how far in advance you book, seat class).

― Sororah T Massacre (blueski), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 17:32 (7 years ago) Permalink

gatinha, i have lived in a small commuteer town with little or no public transport, london, moscow, st petersburg, barcelona, leeds and sheffield.

2 of those i would consider to have excellent, fully functioning transport systems, one of them (BCN) is to my mind a model for fully integrated urban transport systems for a city of that size (approx 1 mill). london is pretty good, st petersburg is an example of a comprehensive but incoherent system where the holes are filled by the private/informal sector, leeds and sheffield are comparable in functioning but hardly excelling in public transport provision. im 25 so dont remember bus privatisation really but do remember rail privatisation.

what do you mean by publicly owned transport exactly? you mean infrastructure, or vehicles, or operations, or planning? as buses, coaches and trains have all been deregulated in various different ways in the past 26 years, the idea of a publicly owned transport system in the UK seems problematic. unless you are proposing full renationalisation of all these areas, then i believe mass-transit is the best way to describe the current set up. note that that is not what i aspire to - but at the moment "public transport" hints at "public service", which given that most buses for example in the UK with the objective (of those running them) of increasing profit rathetr than providing a public service, seems a poor description. unless the underlying ethos fundamentally changes and powers are brought in to re align the guiding principle of public transprot to be a public service (and yes 2000 saw those powers but by buggery its gonna be difficult to get there), we are kidding ourselves (and this is my main point) if we think that our transport system still exists along those lines.

as for rail vs bus, i was referring to the emphasis on this thread rather than stating a preference! i think rail and bus have different roles to play, not necessarily striaght competing, although coaches can provide interesting and perhaps useful competition to rail travel.

bus rapid transit refers to a sort of hybrid practised very successfully in curitiba, for example, in brazil (mainly cos they built the city round it, and the mayor was like an uber-ken) where high patronage corridors are given maximum road space and priority, flooded with vehicles running segregated, ghigh frequency running, high reliability and short journey times, running radially into city centres. feeder services connect suburbs to these radial routes. the effect is to create the effect of trams or trains but with buses - guess what? theyre a lot cheaper, which is why they are hot property in south america. NB this does not mean i endorse them over LRT like everyone else within that debate eg lightrailnow who seem to think that everyhitng is so fucking black and white. that site when ive looked at it has been set up to stop US cities plumping for BRT in place of LRT due to cost.

planes - these distinctions are somewhat arbitrary, are they not, steve? i can easily envisage a world where security checks are imposed on train travellers, or taken off domestic flights, flying between leds and london is no further on a plane than on a train, and when people commute 3 hrs, from wiltshire to london, i think its time we reviewed our conceptions of what role each mode of transport can or should or will fulfil in the overall picture.

for the record, i think air travel playing a similar role to intercity rail services is unsustainable and undesirable in an ideal world but thats what is happening! if its cheaper to get the plane, why not get it? if its qwuicker to get the plane, why not get it? if its more reliable to get he plane, why not get it? if air travel can compete with intercity travel, why are we still syaing things like "Surely the plane would be cheaper and quicker." instead of gettign the plane?

― ambrose (ambrose), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 18:31 (7 years ago) Permalink

i think scale is still important in people's mind and challenging that re air vs rail will be tough but it is happening i suppose. duration isn't so relevant as we know it can take 2 hours just to cross a city like London by car. obv. people often prioritise journey time over price but there is inconsistency here. sometimes i'd rather pay less for a longer journey time, other times i don't mind paying more for a quicker journey. the problem is the rail companies don't seem to really operate with this in mind, and perhaps they just can't. it's cynical to charge different prices for flights or train tickets depending on time of day/week but this is understandable. it often just seems that they're picking numbers at random though, things do not feel as fixed as they were and they seem to be increasing for trains but still decreasing for planes - which still doesn't make sense to most people i wager.

in the example i've given re London to Manchester. in hindsight i think i would've taken the train up but the coach back. in this case Virgin would only have lost about £10. i'm not sure i like the way single tickets are the price they are with returns being just a fraction more. even if it amounted to the same price i'd rather it was £37 (if it must be that much) for a single no matter when, and double that for a return.

― Sororah T Massacre (blueski), Wednesday, 15 February 2006 18:52 (7 years ago) Permalink

Air travel is heavily subsidised, planned and regulated by governments. It is public Transport.

The subsidy is less obvious than with Rail or Bus, but it is there, and it's huge. The primary way in which air travel is subsidised is by exempting aviation fuel from the fuel taxes that every other form of transport has to pay. Airlines are also to a certain extent allowed to form price fixing cartels. In the US they got bunged with soft loans and grants after 9/11. Airports are often paid for and run by governments and governements provide the Air traffic control infrastructure.

All of this goes to make air travel artificially cheap, expecially when compared to Rail. Removing the fuel duty exemption would go a long way to redressing the balance.

As far as rail vs Bus goes, Rail is more efficient per passenger kilometre once you get above a certain distance and way more attractive to the travelling public. What would make it more so would be a network of High Sped lines in the UK. Internal Air trqvel in France does not take place on nearly the same scale as it does in the UK because of the TGV network and every new line decimates the demand for air travel between the places served. Travel between london and Paris has sky rocketed in the last 10 years but the number of flights and the number of people taking them has plumeted to less than 30% of the market.

It is widely reported that 4hrs on the train is the limit at which the plane starts to become more attractive. Very soon most major cities in france will be within 4 hrs of each other (requires lGV Est, LGV atlatique Bordeaux extension and the Nimes-Perpignan LGV). Add to this that you can check in for Air France flight from Lyon St Expeury and Paris Charles de Gaulle at major French stations (and some Belgian ones), hey presto the need for short haul flights is vastly reduced.

And this is with France's much less concentrated population centres. We could have the same effect with 2 or 3 LGV. One up the East Coast to serve the Peterborough, Yorkshire, North East, Edinburgh corridor, one for London, West Midlands, Manchester/Liverpool (possibly extended to Glasgow, but that could be served vis the East coast, with a reopening of the Woodhead line to link the midlands with the Yorkshire HSL). The London-Bristol-Cardiff line could be added to although it is already quite straight and fast and could easily be upgraded to 140mph running. Add in connections to the airports and we can decimate internal air travel in the UK and short haul to near Europe.

― Ed (dali), Thursday, 16 February 2006 11:27 (7 years ago) Permalink

there's still £60 of airport tax everytime you travel by plane though innit?

― ken c (ken c), Thursday, 16 February 2006 11:30 (7 years ago) Permalink

not always £60 obv.

― ken c (ken c), Thursday, 16 February 2006 11:31 (7 years ago) Permalink

airline fuel consumption is about 4.8l per 100 passenger kilometres. That would mean fuel duty on a single ticket to new york (at UK fuel duty rates) would be of the order of £134 per passenger.

― Ed (dali), Thursday, 16 February 2006 11:38 (7 years ago) Permalink

breakdown of our recent return flight to Girona (2 adults):

PAYMENT DETAILS
*********0.04 GBP Adult
********36.70 GBP Taxes,Fees & Charges
********13.92 GBP Aviation / WCHR Levy
*********0.00 GBP Car Rental
********13.00 GBP Insurance
********63.66 GBP Total Paid

― Sororah T Massacre (blueski), Thursday, 16 February 2006 11:40 (7 years ago) Permalink

stupid uk taxes. more reasons to fly united?

xpost haha that's like the firewire cable i bought from amazon. £0.01 cable, £4.50 delivery.

― ken c (ken c), Thursday, 16 February 2006 11:46 (7 years ago) Permalink

United would have to pay the UK fuel duty on refuelling in the UK.

― Ed (dali), Thursday, 16 February 2006 11:51 (7 years ago) Permalink

stupid uk refuellingness. they should do that mid-air refuelling thing.

― ken c (ken c), Thursday, 16 February 2006 11:58 (7 years ago) Permalink

I think a lot of people don't care which part they pay for as long as it's cheap overall. This may well not be the most logical approach, but people don't really care about air tax if the flight's gonna be just 2p.

I would like to know more about how train ticket prices are calculated, weighted etc.

― Sororah T Massacre (blueski), Thursday, 16 February 2006 12:00 (7 years ago) Permalink

By mysterious voodoo.

There has never really been a rational fares system in the UK. I sound like a stuck record but the fares systems in Italy is really good. You pay by kilometre and there are 6 fares, 3 first class, and three second. The three tiers of fare are based on the speed of the train top price for the Eurostars, next for the Intercities, and everything else on the bottom tier. There are all kinds of discount cards but essentially there is one fare structure whether you book a week in advance or 5 minutes before the train leaves. They have been experimenting with demand mangement type fares on certain trains but they are not proving very popular, it seems.

― Ed (dali), Thursday, 16 February 2006 12:07 (7 years ago) Permalink

Ken, airlines *don't* pay fuel duty, wherever they refuel - that's the main way in which airlines receive subsidies compared to other forms of transport.

Ed, the problem with price-per-mile fares is that then the fares end up different for different routes. The good thing about the British system, ORCATS included, is that on an Open you do end up with the same ticket price whatever route you take.

(of course, this doesn't apply to the demand-managed tickets that make up most of the sales on long-distance routes)

― Forest Pines (ForestPines), Thursday, 16 February 2006 12:13 (7 years ago) Permalink

It is transparent though. The british system is opaque and the result of years of layering different system. I have nothing against the 'any reasnoble route' system, it has it's benefits but I think the fares system could do with a ground up rethink.

― Ed (dali), Thursday, 16 February 2006 12:19 (7 years ago) Permalink

You're right about the opacity.

Incidentally, "any reasonable route" was abandoned a few years ago. Valid routes now consist of:

a) a direct train
b) any combination of trains which take the physically shortest route
c) a "mapped route", as shown by the maps in the Fares Manual.

When these rules were first introduced, there were a few oddities and inconsistancies if you followed the route maps to the letter - for example, a London Terminals to Finsbury Park ticket was technically valid via Cambridge.

― Forest Pines (ForestPines), Thursday, 16 February 2006 12:25 (7 years ago) Permalink

i thought the problem was that the relaxation on duty on aviation fuel was international, so it would be hard for one government to do away with it eg UK, and for it to have any effect - there would need to be a overall decision taken by the international community with respect to air travel. is this anywhere near the truth?

anyway, i agree, air travel is public transport, ubt even you will agree that it is not seen as such by members of the public nor much by public transport bodies. PTEs have no control over airports or anything to do with air travel as far as know, despite being "Passenger Transport Executives", which wouldnt seem to preclude air travel from their remits.

― ambrose (ambrose), Thursday, 16 February 2006 13:50 (7 years ago) Permalink

that is the excuse cited, yes.

― Ed (dali), Thursday, 16 February 2006 13:52 (7 years ago) Permalink

Surely, though, PTEs are only concerned with travel within their borders, or to the nearest sensible point outside it.* None of them have "internal" air routes.

* for example, in South Yorkshire the PTE is responsible for Doncaster-Scunthorpe trains, but not Doncaster-Scunthorpe-Cleethorpes ones.

― Forest Pines (ForestPines), Thursday, 16 February 2006 13:54 (7 years ago) Permalink

What is the situation in Manchester where the council owns the airport?

― Ed (dali), Thursday, 16 February 2006 13:55 (7 years ago) Permalink

it depends how you define "responsible". its all about "partnership" innit, theres the new leeds fast service, sheffield to leeds. thats worked out/funded somehow between metro and SYPTE. PTEs dont (or shouldnt) just sit back and fold their arms once buses and trains leave their borders, they need to work with surrounding authorities.

― ambrose (ambrose), Thursday, 16 February 2006 13:59 (7 years ago) Permalink

Is there really. That has been lacking for so long.

― Ed (dali), Thursday, 16 February 2006 14:00 (7 years ago) Permalink

Well, yes. In most cases, though, the adjacent authority will be one without a PTE itself.

With the example I gave of Doncaster-Lincolnshire services, though: the local authorities in northern Lincolnshire couldn't give a toss about public transport. So, the SYPTE-funded trains on the Doncaster-Cleethorpes line turn back at the first sensible turnback point in Lincolnshire, which is Scunthorpe.

― Forest Pines (ForestPines), Thursday, 16 February 2006 14:04 (7 years ago) Permalink

Is the operator Northern or TPE?

― Ed (dali), Thursday, 16 February 2006 14:05 (7 years ago) Permalink

To be honest I can't remember who operates the Doncaster-Scunthorpe locals now, because I never use them. The fast trains through to Cleethorpes are TPE.

― Forest Pines (ForestPines), Thursday, 16 February 2006 14:06 (7 years ago) Permalink

Sorry that was directed at ambrose re: the Sheffield-Leeds Fasts.

― Ed (dali), Thursday, 16 February 2006 14:08 (7 years ago) Permalink

This thread was easier when it was just "trains are shit".

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Thursday, 16 February 2006 14:20 (7 years ago) Permalink

ed, have a look at a timetable to assess how fast the fast trains go. lets just say the Fast service isnt actually the Fast-est service.....

― ambrose (ambrose), Thursday, 16 February 2006 14:25 (7 years ago) Permalink

Northern won't let me download a Sheffield-Leeds Table. I take it Virgin and MML via Donny are still fastest.

― Ed (dali), Thursday, 16 February 2006 14:28 (7 years ago) Permalink

I'm going to Dunstable tomorrow. It doesn't even have a train station! Assume it's going to be full of inbreds?

― Mikey G (Mikey G), Thursday, 16 February 2006 14:29 (7 years ago) Permalink

Ken, airlines *don't* pay fuel duty, wherever they refuel - that's the main way in which airlines receive subsidies compared to other forms of transport.

haha yes i know this (it was mentioned upthread) i thought the discussion at the time was what if it wasn't exempt from this and whether airport tax covers this cost (seems that it doesn't).

― ken c (ken c), Thursday, 16 February 2006 14:35 (7 years ago) Permalink

Transport in London is not even remotely shit:
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/films/1945to51/filmpage_jbalb.htm

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Friday, 17 February 2006 12:24 (7 years ago) Permalink

dunstable is a bit depressing. the a5 runs stright through the middle of town - i didnt know there was no train station. i guess it biult up at a time where trains were not considered as vital as major roads.

the leeds-sheffield "fast" service takes about an hour. virgin is 45 mins. the fast service does stop at barnsley and meadowhall etc. so its more of a regional link train, for the major towns in the area.

leeds to shefield travel, will, i predict, never ever be as good or quick or easy as it should.

― ambrose (ambrose), Friday, 17 February 2006 13:17 (7 years ago) Permalink

2 weeks pass...

Well, As I good spaniard I am (from Madrid) I must say that my experience in the london underground has been good. Besides of its ruin stations. But, the service is really great. Trains every 5 minutes and even in peak times every minute!!! That's really great.

Im very proud of our underground in Madrid, Actually, its got 12 lines now and its really modern (even though its old as well). It been refurbished from time to time. That's why i wonder why london underground bosses don't make it a little bit modern. The stations should be refurbished as the spanish ones does.

TOO EXPENSIVE. I don't know why you guys pay that money for a bloody travel card. In Madrid I pay 50 euros and I can go anywhere from anywhere. I guess that's because british don't speak up when its needed. Really, you should do a strike or something cause paying that money for the value you get its ridiculous.

I was so surpised to see slam doors trains in London. I said to myself 'wow, that's a classic'. Well, they are old but cute at the same time. Not a big deal though to complain about that, its been a shame they've been retired now.

How about the air cond?? Come on mates, speak up and tell them to fix air cond on the trains. YOU ARE PAYING TOO MUCH MONEY FOR THE BLODDY TRANSPORTATION!!! I read in Madrid this last summer that on the train it was up to 40C !!!!! THATS NOT A TRAIN BUT A SAUNA!!!

Tell them, do a strike or something. You english are very silly, you pay and pay and pay and you never complain!!

However, I still say that British transport is not shity but old. You must feel very proud of having one of the largest undergrounds in the world and the oldest one

Regards from Madrid

― israel r crespo, Tuesday, 7 March 2006 03:16 (7 years ago) Permalink

Technically very very difficult because of how deep the lines are and because it was never considered from the off. Air-conditioning the trains would make the stations a nice even 45?C or more, you'd have to air-condition the tunnels and stations as well and the cost, not to mention the amount of energy required would be astronomical.

― Ed (dali), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 07:12 (7 years ago) Permalink

I don't get it. Why would you have to air-condition the tunnels? Many cities have deep tunnels and A/C, what's different about London?

I would not think the heat thrown off from the trains' A/C units would make all that much difference considering that they are constantly in motion. (Though NYC's subways are miserably hot in the summer, I admit.)

― unclejessjess (unclejessjess), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 08:10 (7 years ago) Permalink

It's not just the depth, but the extent at depth (no where else has nearly as much deep line as london) and the lack of ventilation anyway. Most lines were built with the idea that the only necessary vents would be the stations and the tunenel portals, and this is insufficient in the moderen age (if it ever was sufficient). You air condition the trains and you dump the heat in the tunnels and stations, you have to get it out some how, theough exttra ventilation (nearly impossible in central London) or through some kind of heat pump, (costly and wasteful).

New York's subway is stifling hot and the only deep lines are the river tunnels and the washington heights lines. Most lines have regular street vents and the A/C trains still cook the tunnels and stations (don't forget the heat from people and traction motors etc.)

― Ed (dali), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 08:26 (7 years ago) Permalink

New York's subway is stifling hot

but the air con on the newer 6 trains is great tho.

― Sororah T Massacre (blueski), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 10:25 (7 years ago) Permalink

Inside the trains, especially the latest ones (2,3,6,L) is icy cold. All that heat gets dumped in the tunnel though.

― Ed (dali), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 10:28 (7 years ago) Permalink

they should store the heat for heating in winter.

― ken c (ken c), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 11:09 (7 years ago) Permalink

In Madrid I pay 50 euros and I can go anywhere from anywhere

wait isn't that like £35? seems a lot for a single ticket.

― ken c (ken c), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 11:11 (7 years ago) Permalink

Are the underground tunnels in London deep enough for the heat of the earth's crust to contribute, or is it all just radiated energy from lights, engines, people etc?

― Markelby (Mark C), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 11:13 (7 years ago) Permalink

In Madrid I pay 50 euros and I can go anywhere from anywhere

wait isn't that like £35? seems a lot for a single ticket.

It seems to have got him to London so I'd say it's a bit of a bargain.

― Markelby (Mark C), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 11:13 (7 years ago) Permalink

Are the underground tunnels in London deep enough for the heat of the earth's crust to contribute, or is it all just radiated energy from lights, engines, people etc?

Radiated, convected and conducted. Geothermal heat is minimal.

― Ed (dali), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 11:15 (7 years ago) Permalink

they should have those little rivers running through the tracks like in glasgow underground. the water should cool everything down

― ken c (ken c), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 11:24 (7 years ago) Permalink

or have a heat sink on every train, that gets dropped into a big pool at the end of the line and replaced with previously cooled ones

― ken c (ken c), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 11:27 (7 years ago) Permalink

Oh god, I used to get regular ear infections from the NYC subway - going from extreme heat of the stations to the extreme cold of the subway cars was just not good for my head.

― I'm Not Afraid Of Electricity (kate), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 11:36 (7 years ago) Permalink

He's right about the strike.

50 euros a month, innit.

I read yesterday that some tube lines are going to be closed for refurbishment. An olympian task.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 11:38 (7 years ago) Permalink

Fair enough, I never use Olympia tube station anyway.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Tuesday, 7 March 2006 12:03 (7 years ago) Permalink

6 months pass...

Certainly was today...The details are too boring to go into- but suffice to say that I had to give up travelling on two different lines (Victoria and Northern Line) that had "severe delays". The Victoria Line was actually suspended in both directions.

That's about the third weekend in a row I've had really shit travel experiences in London.

It's a great city, but badly let down by its transport infrastructure.

"We suggest that you continue your journey at street level"

― Bob Six (bobbysix), Saturday, 9 September 2006 19:33 (6 years ago) Permalink

Nothing West from Liverpool St.
Piccadilly suspended b/w Kings Cross and Seven Sisters.
Victoria line fucked also.

"Try the Northern Line"??????!?!?!
I'm going to Finsbury fucking Park!!!

― uptoeleven (uptoeleven), Saturday, 9 September 2006 21:22 (6 years ago) Permalink

The Northern line is suspended between Camden & High Barnet almost every weekend for the forseeable future due to engineering works. Also ran into closures on the Victoria line the other weekend when I tried to use that instead, guess they're doing the same there. Pain in the arse, I usually just get the bus now.

― Colonel Poo (Colonel Poo), Saturday, 9 September 2006 21:40 (6 years ago) Permalink

This went beyond the planned engineering works.

― Bob Six (bobbysix), Saturday, 9 September 2006 22:03 (6 years ago) Permalink

fpark is 8 mins from moorgate on the train

― -- (688), Sunday, 10 September 2006 03:09 (6 years ago) Permalink

....but not at weekends.

LT appears to have this warped idea that no-one actually uses the tube at weekends, so it's alright to close half the system down in one go every Saturday and Sunday. As if this was some kind of 50s throwback where no shops were open, people wandered over to visit their family who lived round the corner and everyone piled into church on a Sunday.

― darren (darren), Sunday, 10 September 2006 16:03 (6 years ago) Permalink

which would be sort of okay if islington council wasn't intent on digging up every major road running through the borough...

― a rapper singing about hos and bitches and money (Enrique), Monday, 11 September 2006 07:47 (6 years ago) Permalink

We went to London, to Rise festival, a couple of months back. Left early, went for a drink in the early evening in Camden, decided to go for a curry in Brick Lane and then a quick pint. Got to Kings Cross to go home - it's closed! Not just the trains aren't running - the whole thign is closed. On a Saturday, at 12:00am. We sat in the cold for 4 hours before my girlfriends' angelic parents came and picked her up.
What kind of country do we live in where congestion is causing a major problem to our air and roads; where we are told public transport is a must; and where we're expected to go exploring the UK's riches (particularly in London) when it costs £20 to travel on a stinking, crowded train that's normally late and you can't even get home afterwards! No wonder I have a problem leaving Hitchin - it's only a few miles out of London, but oh no.

― wogan lenin (dog latin), Monday, 11 September 2006 07:55 (6 years ago) Permalink

> LT appears to have this warped idea that no-one actually uses the tube at weekends

no, i just think it knows (for sure) that LESS people use it at weekends.

i've started getting emails about weekend closures, somehow.

― Koogy Yonderboy (koogs), Monday, 11 September 2006 08:08 (6 years ago) Permalink

FEWER people. Naughty naughty Koogs!

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Monday, 11 September 2006 08:13 (6 years ago) Permalink

FEWER

xpost

― a rapper singing about hos and bitches and money (Enrique), Monday, 11 September 2006 08:13 (6 years ago) Permalink

I get the e-mails about weekend closures as well, which make it doubly irritating when the part of the network that is supposed to be running is suspended.

What really bugs me is that fairly outrageous, but fairly commonplace, situations - such as dog latin's above, or several hundred commuters being stuck underground for an hour before being led to safety - are just shrugged off.

― Bob Six (bobbysix), Monday, 11 September 2006 10:18 (6 years ago) Permalink

how much of this endless north london weekend tube shit is due to the new arsenal stadium?

― dave q (listerine), Monday, 11 September 2006 10:43 (6 years ago) Permalink

ARSENAL'S new stadium SYSTEM is messing up with our tube SYSTEM. etc.

i was running a bit late to work so cunningly thought it a great idea to go to work by tube cos it's quicker right? HELL NO i was stuck at a station for 20 minutes (time it takes for the bus to get to work), and what's the worst is the way the next train display thing LIES and tell me 6 mins when i get there and doesn't ever change.

everytime i use the tube it seems to let me down (but i am one of those lesser people who only really ever use the tube at weekends). Thameslink, on the other hand, is amazing.

― ken c (ken c), Monday, 11 September 2006 12:48 (6 years ago) Permalink

northern line is rarely faster than bus imo!

― a rapper singing about hos and bitches and money (Enrique), Monday, 11 September 2006 12:49 (6 years ago) Permalink

holloway road to warren st can be about 10 mins quicker by tube on a good day. just.. not today.

i guess i'm better off by bike. (or i was better off by bike, until some fucker stole it)

― ken c (ken c), Monday, 11 September 2006 12:51 (6 years ago) Permalink

I almost never use the tube (living in Streatham, you see, there is no tube but you can get buses to anywhere).

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Monday, 11 September 2006 12:52 (6 years ago) Permalink

I find the lying signs very annoying too, Ken. There could be a good excuse for the delays, but not for the obfuscation.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Monday, 11 September 2006 13:15 (6 years ago) Permalink

What you have to remember is five Circle/Northern Line minutes = 20 Earth minutes.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Monday, 11 September 2006 13:19 (6 years ago) Permalink

The problem, I guess, is when a train is stuck at a station six minutes away and isn't moving; the system can't cope with indeterminate delays. At least the National Rail system (Trust, I think it's called) will switch from an estimated delay time to just showing a vague "Delayed" in those circumstances.

― Forest Pines (ForestPines), Monday, 11 September 2006 13:19 (6 years ago) Permalink

The bus stop LCD readouts aren't much better. Many are the times when a 417 comes up to being 2 MINS due and then abruptly vanishes from the board, with no actual 417 on the horizon.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Monday, 11 September 2006 13:22 (6 years ago) Permalink

The bus stop LCD readouts aren't much better.

Those things may as well just display the entire written works of L. Ron Hubbard, such is their relation to actual reality.

― Venga (Venga), Monday, 11 September 2006 13:30 (6 years ago) Permalink

>> LT appears to have this warped idea that no-one actually uses the tube at weekends
>no, i just think it knows (for sure) that LESS people use it at weekends.

But my point was that enough people do use it at weekends to make a mockery of the skeleton service that seems to operate every single Saturday and Sunday on the tube. I can barely recall a time when there was a regular Circle/H & C service at weekends!

If I were in charge, I would do exactly what the fuckers say they are anxious to avoid doing: close entire sections of line for, say, three or four weeks and get the bloody job done. Those Metronet numpties will never get anything done while they're ambling about on overtime at weekends and having 'late finishes' on Monday morning. It would be a pain in the arse if you live in say, East Finchley, but at least you knew it'd be over soon and you could actually plan your life around it.

― darren (darren), Monday, 11 September 2006 13:36 (6 years ago) Permalink

Where can I place a bet that the 2012 Olympics is going to have massive transport problems and go down in history as one of the worst fiascos in Olympic history?

― Bob Six (bobbysix), Monday, 11 September 2006 14:01 (6 years ago) Permalink

i doubt the athletes will be travelling by tube much.

― a rapper singing about hos and bitches and money (Enrique), Monday, 11 September 2006 14:03 (6 years ago) Permalink

Apparently Livingstone expects all the athletes to travel to the Lea Valley on foot or by bike, including from abroad, seeing how he doesn't like aeroplanes 'cos they're Tory oppression etc.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Monday, 11 September 2006 14:05 (6 years ago) Permalink

2 months pass...

no one noticed anything today then?

― Bob Six (bobbysix), Monday, 20 November 2006 18:17 (6 years ago) Permalink

colleagues said the tube was widespread fuxored. i myself had to walk halfway down Hackney Rd because stupid roadworks + lorries were causing gridlock round there.

― 2 american 4 u (blueski), Monday, 20 November 2006 18:23 (6 years ago) Permalink

Had complete nightmare this morning, but coming home it was OK. My wife gave up on getting into work and went back home!

― Colonel Poo (Colonel Poo), Monday, 20 November 2006 18:55 (6 years ago) Permalink

someone at work said there is also a bus strike?

― emsk ( emsk), Monday, 20 November 2006 18:57 (6 years ago) Permalink

Uh yeah, that was the problem.

― Colonel Poo (Colonel Poo), Monday, 20 November 2006 19:13 (6 years ago) Permalink

actually quicker trip home than usual this evening.

― Britain's Obtusest Shepherd (Alan), Monday, 20 November 2006 20:52 (6 years ago) Permalink

Compare NY and London subways:
http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/dft_localtrans/documents/page/dft_localtrans_504022.hcsp

― stet (stet), Monday, 20 November 2006 20:55 (6 years ago) Permalink

9 months pass...

Jesus, simply trying to find out how much a travelcard to London costs becomes a lunatic gambit when trying to tackle the FCC website.

― the next grozart, Monday, 10 September 2007 02:02 (5 years ago) Permalink

you're all spoiled

― roxymuzak, Monday, 10 September 2007 03:31 (5 years ago) Permalink

A ridiculous thread, this. Londoners!

― admrl, Monday, 10 September 2007 03:48 (5 years ago) Permalink

how's that strike goin'?

― hstencil, Monday, 10 September 2007 03:49 (5 years ago) Permalink

Also the buses seem to be better every time I get back. But don't ever change, you total cunts.

― admrl, Monday, 10 September 2007 03:49 (5 years ago) Permalink

I love this thread.

On Friday night I bought a single from Finchley Road to Ruislip for £3. This price seemed OK really, especially as I could get the fast train and change at Harrow for the Uxbridge one behind it.

― blueski, Monday, 10 September 2007 10:30 (5 years ago) Permalink

15 minute wait on the District line for a Richmond train this morning. Is this normal? Was at Earls Court so popped over to the Piccadilly and got a train instantly. Really I should bite the bullet and cycle no matter how tired or lazy I feel.

― ledge, Monday, 10 September 2007 10:33 (5 years ago) Permalink

brixton to hackney central: 133 + 48 is faster than the tube! i felt like i had discovered a wormhole

― Tracer Hand, Monday, 10 September 2007 10:38 (5 years ago) Permalink

Ruislip -> I find this to be an extremely funny name (when said in Dutch). Almost as funny as public transport in England.

― nathalie, Monday, 10 September 2007 10:42 (5 years ago) Permalink

i discovered the 272 bus on Saturday altho i didn't go on it (but i'd like to).

― blueski, Monday, 10 September 2007 10:47 (5 years ago) Permalink

o to live in a place where 15 minutes waiting for a bus is a long time

― roxymuzak, Monday, 10 September 2007 17:41 (5 years ago) Permalink

but then u would be complaining like us. you would become the very thing you DESPISE.

― blueski, Monday, 10 September 2007 17:55 (5 years ago) Permalink

4 months pass...

The London Underground Victoria line will close early between Mondays and Thursdays from 4 February until late November 2008....

Passengers using the line after 21:45 will be asked to use alternative routes while overnight work takes place on a major upgrade of the line.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/media/newscentre/7197.aspx

It's been like this for a lot of 2007 (from July through to November)- and no doubt this means it's going to be up the creek at weekends as well.

― Bob Six, Sunday, 20 January 2008 14:32 (5 years ago) Permalink

I missed out on Dr C's gig last night because the Hammersmith and City was out west on Kings Cross because clearly no one wants to do anything at the weekends.

― Ed, Sunday, 20 January 2008 14:33 (5 years ago) Permalink

"Full details of weekend closures will also be publicised nearer the time."

― Bob Six, Sunday, 20 January 2008 14:38 (5 years ago) Permalink

Seemed okay to me last month, although I chuckled every time the lovely voice announced that the Victoria line does not stop at Victoria station.

― M.V., Sunday, 20 January 2008 15:47 (5 years ago) Permalink

The "No smoking ANYWHERE on the underground" lady pisses me off. I wasn't gonna smoke, stop telling me off!

― chap, Sunday, 20 January 2008 15:52 (5 years ago) Permalink

Ed there's more than one way out west!

― blueski, Sunday, 20 January 2008 16:37 (5 years ago) Permalink

― DG, Sunday, 20 January 2008 20:27 (5 years ago) Permalink

1 month passes...

as much as i'm down with the message, these horrible mascots really piss me off

should've drafted in natalie dee

― blueski, Wednesday, 27 February 2008 13:59 (5 years ago) Permalink

I want to hunt and kill the staff of TFL today. I got a £20 fine last night because the station I was going to didn't have a fucking Oyster reader, unlike every other station before it. I have zone 1-3 card but this was 1 bastard stop into zone 4. Just my fucking luck etc.

― Colonel Poo, Wednesday, 27 February 2008 14:07 (5 years ago) Permalink

figure on the left is based on blueski, surely?

― DG, Wednesday, 27 February 2008 14:10 (5 years ago) Permalink

should've drafted in natalie dee

^^^xkcd dude could have spoke to the children with these drawings. And then said something funny about wireless routing.

― Dom Passantino, Wednesday, 27 February 2008 14:11 (5 years ago) Permalink

something about the faces is really patronising. i guess the whole campaign is really.

― blueski, Wednesday, 27 February 2008 14:32 (5 years ago) Permalink

The cinema advert is horrid, and lasts about four hours.

― Dom Passantino, Wednesday, 27 February 2008 14:33 (5 years ago) Permalink

I got a £20 fine last night because the station I was going to didn't have a fucking Oyster reader

Can you get it back? That's really their fault surely.

― ledge, Wednesday, 27 February 2008 14:37 (5 years ago) Permalink

They nabbed about 4 other people saying the same thing as me, and basically said tough shit it was your responsibility to check before you travelled, so probably not. I'm going to appeal though, cos it's bollocks really.

― Colonel Poo, Wednesday, 27 February 2008 14:46 (5 years ago) Permalink

Which station, out of interest? I didn't think there were many without these days.

― Bocken Social Scene, Wednesday, 27 February 2008 14:48 (5 years ago) Permalink

Wood Street. Apparently the Oyster readers stop at Walthamstow Central, where I usually get off, but I had to go to the doctors, so I went on 1 more stop. Honestly didn't know it was in zone 4, but I have prepay on my Oyster anyway so tend not to worry about such things normally.

― Colonel Poo, Wednesday, 27 February 2008 14:49 (5 years ago) Permalink

Yeah that is absolute bullshit.

― ledge, Wednesday, 27 February 2008 14:51 (5 years ago) Permalink

I think you're all cynical bastards and that the adverts are quite cute. I don't have to stare at them every day though, so I guess the annoyingness doesn't quite seep into me.

― The Wayward Johnny B, Wednesday, 27 February 2008 14:51 (5 years ago) Permalink

they remind me of Love Is... urgh

― blueski, Wednesday, 27 February 2008 14:52 (5 years ago) Permalink

Useless revenue protection staff - it's not that there isn't an Oyster reader at that station, it's that Pre-pay on NR is far from prefect, and is only valid as far as Walthamstow Central.

It's a complete mess, I found this map the other day which is useful in seeing where Pre-Pay is and isn't valid on National Rail (almost used overground there, which leads to more confusion, ie the 'overground train' in colloquial use, and the London Overground which is the North London Line and other ex-Silverlink Metro services - this has its own set of Pre-Pay anomalies too!). They should either introduce total Z1-6 Pre-pay fares on NR, or none at all. Having bits of lines here and there is just stupid.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/tickets/oyster-PAYG-08-01-02.pdf

― Bocken Social Scene, Wednesday, 27 February 2008 14:57 (5 years ago) Permalink

That's lousy, Colonel. Surely the point of penalty fares is to nab people who were trying to dodge the fare. What is wrong with just getting you to pay the extra station? (rhetorical question)

Thanks for the map, Bocken. I'm baffled as to why I'm not allowed to use PAYG at my station, Hornsey, on the line north of Finsbury Park, but can use it for stations south of FP on precisely the same line...

― Daniel Giraffe, Wednesday, 27 February 2008 15:25 (5 years ago) Permalink

In truth CP probably ought to have swotted up on his zones beforehand but then we have to remember that the point of penalty fares is to raise revenue for ~~the Olympics~~ Transport for London.

― Dingbod Kesterson, Wednesday, 27 February 2008 15:28 (5 years ago) Permalink

Those fascists that march through the carriages in gangs of four with their big bastard coats on are worse than fucking muggers, bouncers and traffic wardens put together. They contribute nothing good to the world.

― Upt0eleven, Wednesday, 27 February 2008 16:46 (5 years ago) Permalink

There were about 10 cops standing around at Walthamstow Central when I finally got home just doing fuck all, why weren't they out catching real criminals, eh, eh?

― Colonel Poo, Wednesday, 27 February 2008 17:01 (5 years ago) Permalink

Everytime I go through there now I expect to be stop & searched.

― Colonel Poo, Wednesday, 27 February 2008 17:02 (5 years ago) Permalink

1 month passes...

Choob STRIKE

― Upt0eleven, Friday, 28 March 2008 11:39 (5 years ago) Permalink

because of what madonna said?

― Ste, Friday, 28 March 2008 11:41 (5 years ago) Permalink

"This dispute boils down to properly trained Tube staff wanting to post lolcats instead of working."

― Dingbod Kesterson, Friday, 28 March 2008 11:44 (5 years ago) Permalink

I blame Mackenzie Crook

― Tom D., Friday, 28 March 2008 11:53 (5 years ago) Permalink

"This dispute boils down to properly trained Tube staff wanting to post lolcats instead of working."

LOL this is me RIGHT NOW.

― Raw Patrick, Friday, 28 March 2008 12:00 (5 years ago) Permalink

8 months pass...

Okay this is way cool:

http://onabus.com/

― Neil S, Friday, 28 November 2008 11:34 (4 years ago) Permalink

That is cool. Acknowledges a big gap on the TfL site.

It'd be cooler if:

a)they had a cross-referenced index of all the buses and all the stops, so if I want to get to, say holloway road, I don't need to go to journey planner first.

b)I had an iphone or whatever; it's obviously aimed at mobile internet users "on a bus".

― Manchego Bay (G00blar), Friday, 28 November 2008 11:41 (4 years ago) Permalink

Or if you could compare more than one route at the same time.

― Neil S, Friday, 28 November 2008 11:42 (4 years ago) Permalink

what's it meant to do? nothing's happening...

― the next grozart, Friday, 28 November 2008 11:58 (4 years ago) Permalink

One or two people at work have had the same problem. It displays a Google map plotting the bus route in question in a useful kind of way.

― Neil S, Friday, 28 November 2008 12:03 (4 years ago) Permalink

Except it doesn't work on two mobile phones I just tried it on. I'm calling useless.

― Chopper Aristotle (Matt DC), Friday, 28 November 2008 12:03 (4 years ago) Permalink

wow that is awesome. i bet it definitely works on an iPhone..

― Tracer Hand, Friday, 28 November 2008 12:04 (4 years ago) Permalink

hmm, it thought a 73 went from Upminster to Tilbury

― Ed, Friday, 28 November 2008 12:04 (4 years ago) Permalink

it's obviously aimed at mobile internet users "on a bus".

i.e. "onabus.com"

― Tracer Hand, Friday, 28 November 2008 12:04 (4 years ago) Permalink

Doesn't work on a Blackberry either, you just get a list of bus stops which can surely be of no real use to anyone.

― Chopper Aristotle (Matt DC), Friday, 28 November 2008 12:05 (4 years ago) Permalink

I was hoping the photos would be view from the top deck

― GSOHSHIT (blueski), Friday, 28 November 2008 12:07 (4 years ago) Permalink

Yeah I checked the 73 route, that's a funny one! x-post

― Neil S, Friday, 28 November 2008 12:07 (4 years ago) Permalink

next step from that being videos of journeys end to end xp

― GSOHSHIT (blueski), Friday, 28 November 2008 12:07 (4 years ago) Permalink

It thought a C11 was some sort of coach service from Kent too, but there's a list of other routes below the stops list. Not ideal.

― bocken (j.o.n.a), Friday, 28 November 2008 12:08 (4 years ago) Permalink

I was hoping the photos would be view from the top deck

I noticed google maps now has a thing where it shows locations of photos (presumably in picasa?) and wikipedia pages on the maps now.

― bocken (j.o.n.a), Friday, 28 November 2008 12:09 (4 years ago) Permalink

No photos/Google maps coming up on my view either EPIC FAIL

― Brother Belcher (Marcello Carlin), Friday, 28 November 2008 13:34 (4 years ago) Permalink

Hmm obviously very Beta at the moment.

― Neil S, Friday, 28 November 2008 13:36 (4 years ago) Permalink

doesn't work on my PC either

― o_O (ken c), Friday, 28 November 2008 14:38 (4 years ago) Permalink

ok works on firefox

should tell you where you can change to other buses

― o_O (ken c), Friday, 28 November 2008 14:40 (4 years ago) Permalink

Basically onthebus.com reveals exactly why they invented spider maps.

― Tracer Hand, Friday, 28 November 2008 14:44 (4 years ago) Permalink

and asks the question why they invented the W7 bus route
http://onabus.com/?route=w7

― o_O (ken c), Friday, 28 November 2008 14:47 (4 years ago) Permalink

Yes, I never quite worked out the rationale behind that one.

The really inexplicable one is the bus which goes from the top of Barnet to the bottom of Barnet and back again but I can't remember its number.

― Brother Belcher (Marcello Carlin), Friday, 28 November 2008 14:51 (4 years ago) Permalink

W7 useful for getting to tube black hole Muswell Hill from that other tube black hole Stoke Newington.

― Neil S, Friday, 28 November 2008 15:05 (4 years ago) Permalink

Every time I'm in Stoke Newington every bus seems to go nowhere except Edmonton. What's the attraction?

― Brother Belcher (Marcello Carlin), Friday, 28 November 2008 15:23 (4 years ago) Permalink

http://www.onroutebus.co.uk

― James Mitchell, Tuesday, 9 December 2008 19:19 (4 years ago) Permalink

2 months pass...

transport in ~~London~~ the UK is shit

― Bob Six, Friday, 20 February 2009 19:48 (4 years ago) Permalink

For example, in Britain long-distance turn-up-and-go fully flexible day-return fares to the principal city (London) were 87% more expensive than in the next most expensive country surveyed - Germany.

This type of British fare was also more than three times as expensive than in the cheapest country surveyed - the Netherlands.

British annual season tickets for journeys of no more than 25 miles were 88% more expensive than the next most expensive country - France - and more than four times pricier than the cheapest country - Italy.

We should be rioting in the street or burning mainline stations to a cinder in protest.

― Bob Six, Friday, 20 February 2009 19:50 (4 years ago) Permalink

train fares in my part of the world have gone up by about 80% in the last, ooh, six, seven years. Dunno how that's justifiable in terms that aren't nonsense. Also, why is cross-country train travel so amazingly expensive when not purchased months in advance? For example, when Southern Rail (or someone) made me miss a bus from London to Glasgow with their 50 minute late train, they agreed to pay for us to get a train from London to Glasgow instead. Three single tickets: £318. Who actually buys tickets at that price?

― Ralph, Waldo, Emerson, Lake & Palmer (Merdeyeux), Friday, 20 February 2009 20:56 (4 years ago) Permalink

OK, can I just complain about this a moment?

I had to go to a job interview this morning, so I hopped on a 159 expecting to get to Central London in about an hour. There was a road diversion so that it took over HALF AN HOUR to get to Brixton (normally a 15 minute busride) - so I hopped off at Brixton and decided to take the tube because I needed to be there by 11am.

It was FOUR POUNDS for a single. FOUR POUNDS to travel from zone 2 to zone 1.

That is just COMPLETELY out of order. And don't go on about Oyster cards because I STILL live in an area where they STILL don't take Oyster cards on my local train.

FOUR POUNDS. FOUR EARTH POUNDS. FOR A SINGLE. FROM ZONE 2 TO ZONE 1.

I can remember when I moved back to the UK, a bloody travelcard for the DAY was not quite four pounds. How can inflation have gone up that much?

― Mon Dieu! (My Balls!) (Masonic Boom), Friday, 20 February 2009 21:00 (4 years ago) Permalink

And don't go on about Oyster cards

hey how about you get an oyster card for, like, the bus and the tube?

― ledge, Friday, 20 February 2009 21:04 (4 years ago) Permalink

Can I please proffer the opinion that London transport is actually quite good.

― aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa, Friday, 20 February 2009 21:07 (4 years ago) Permalink

OTM

― ledge, Friday, 20 February 2009 21:07 (4 years ago) Permalink

Can I please proffer the opinion that London transport is actually quite good.

Oh good - not this again...How much research does there need to be to prove it?

To repeat something upthread: It's people not complaining, and not comparing it to more modern transport systems, that's partly responsible for London's transport remaining shit.

International competitiveness studies always highlight the expense of transport, crumbling infrastructure, and historic lack of investment as a negative factor in London's economic position.

― Bob Six, Friday, 20 February 2009 21:15 (4 years ago) Permalink

There's such a wide range of factors which differ between cities: climate, sprawl, population density, geography, layout, that I don't see how I can one can ever conduct meaningful research. Maybe other cities have better transport, but I'm still amazed *every single day* that this jumbled sprawling metropolis, the largest in Europe, is held together by a transport system which has got me from A to B every day since I've lived here somehow or other.

― aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa, Friday, 20 February 2009 21:24 (4 years ago) Permalink

[I can feel myself going a bit Marcello about this - probably the long-term built up frustration of all those poor journeys - so please adjust following for any hyperbole]

For that matter, there's such diversity between countries that you might as well say we can never compare economies fully, so can never carry out meaningful research and know that the Zimbabwean economic system is worse than - for example - Denmark... We might as well pack up all attempts at comparison....

Please raise your expectations over what a city transport system can provide - if not for yourself, for everyone else because (I suspect) a lot of improvements are demand-led.

If we just continue accept the clapped out inefficient expensive 'system' we've got in a well-intended but misguided, mustn't grumble/had worse/blitz spirit/forelock tugging manner, it'll never improve.

― Bob Six, Friday, 20 February 2009 21:36 (4 years ago) Permalink

It was FOUR POUNDS for a single. FOUR POUNDS to travel from zone 2 to zone 1.

Tourist tax, innit.

― Leon Brambles (G00blar), Friday, 20 February 2009 21:43 (4 years ago) Permalink

Also, the fact that you've just discovered this (it's been £4 for a non-oyster single for at least 2-3 years now) is actually a good thing!

― Leon Brambles (G00blar), Friday, 20 February 2009 21:44 (4 years ago) Permalink

clapped out inefficient expensive

Are there two different Londons? Ok the only other major city transport network I can really remember using is Paris. A single there: eur1.60. A single here: ukp1.60 (with oyster card). That's parity at the current exchange rate! And I would say London easily wins in terms of train frequency, and definitely in station coverage.

― ledge, Friday, 20 February 2009 21:44 (4 years ago) Permalink

And the coverage and frequency of buses in central london is pretty fucking amazing imo. Single: £1 (with oyster). Seems cheap enough to me.

― ledge, Friday, 20 February 2009 21:47 (4 years ago) Permalink

Can I please proffer the opinion that London transport is actually quite good.

― aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa, Saturday, February 21, 2009 8:07 AM (37 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

otfm, and anyone who's tried to deal with one of these cunts or one of these cunts would have something real to complain about.

― we r from twitteronia, we connect (Autumn Almanac), Friday, 20 February 2009 21:49 (4 years ago) Permalink

Last time I checked (and granted, it's been a long time since I checked) there was a £5 deposit to get an Oyster card. So I should pay £5 to lug around this extra piece of plastic that I can use once every 2 years?

But I know it's a losing battle trying to persuade people who live on Oyster lines that they're not god's gift to transport.

I just remember being in NYC earlier this year and being astonished by how much better the NYC subway was than the tube.

― Mon Dieu! (My Balls!) (Masonic Boom), Friday, 20 February 2009 21:49 (4 years ago) Permalink

i.e. if you get to work without 12 of your actual services being cancelled EVERY WEEK you are doing well xp

― we r from twitteronia, we connect (Autumn Almanac), Friday, 20 February 2009 21:50 (4 years ago) Permalink

obvs xp

― Leon Brambles (G00blar), Friday, 20 February 2009 21:50 (4 years ago) Permalink

how much better the NYC subway was than the tube.

in terms of what? (n.b. i don't tend to use transport at rush hour, i know the tube can get jammed. any other time i really don't know what people complain about.)

― ledge, Friday, 20 February 2009 21:54 (4 years ago) Permalink

reliability mostly

― Leon Brambles (G00blar), Friday, 20 February 2009 21:55 (4 years ago) Permalink

Rush hour is rush hour (though it is true that LDN transport is more crowded), but it's delays and line closings that seem the real problem with the tube.

― Leon Brambles (G00blar), Friday, 20 February 2009 21:57 (4 years ago) Permalink

Closures, delays, trains actually turning up when they're supposed to... oh yeah, and if you compare cost - NYC is way cheaper, especially considering it's a one fare ride as far as you like system. Oh, and runs all night.

I mean, perhaps I'm just bitter because of my experience this morning - and also my experience yesterday of waiting 20 minutes for a connection to finally turn up, combined with the experience the previous day of being stranded for over an hour at East Croydon... this frustration just adds up. Especially considering that when I was commuting every day, 3 out of every 4 mornings I would experience some kind of delay.

― Mon Dieu! (My Balls!) (Masonic Boom), Friday, 20 February 2009 22:03 (4 years ago) Permalink

Them's the breaks... I don't wanna downplay the experience of getting majorly delayed, or suggest that there isn't a problem at all, but called it 'clapped out' and 'inefficient' is wayyy over stating the case. Plus, they are working on this, right? What else are all the planned closures for.

― ledge, Friday, 20 February 2009 22:08 (4 years ago) Permalink

Hang on, in what universe is three significant delays in THREE DAYS just "them's the breaks"?

That's a failure rate of 100%. I think that comes pretty clearly under the category of "shit".

― Good Wizzard Meets Naughty Wizzard (Masonic Boom), Friday, 20 February 2009 22:12 (4 years ago) Permalink

Weren't two of them trains though? Not tfl. Trains are shit, well that's whole other story.

― ledge, Friday, 20 February 2009 22:14 (4 years ago) Permalink

Also, failure rate of 100% for very small sample.

― ledge, Friday, 20 February 2009 22:15 (4 years ago) Permalink

For various reasons, I've travelled in Europe a lot a while back - and I really resent denial over problems with London transport.

The first stage to recovery is acknowledging a problem.

The historical lack of investment is obvious and the problems it causes are obvious. Coverage is poor - e.g. large parts of South London aren't on the tube network.

Structural improvements/solutions such as Cross-Rail, and mooted tram schemes, are in an on/off stage for decades.

It shuts down early, it breaks down frequently, and it is expensive (try comparing monthly/yearly ticket costs with other world cities).

Plus have tried travelling at weekend recently?

It'd be such a relief if we could bring ourselves to acknowledge that it's shit.

― Bob Six, Friday, 20 February 2009 22:22 (4 years ago) Permalink

Coverage is excellent in the middle of town - i.e. all the bits that most visitors think of as London. Cross rail is under development. Paris is cheaper for season tickets, yes, but not single journeys. Yes it would be nice if the tube opened later. I would argue that while there are problems, 'it' does not 'break down' 'frequently'. And yes there have been line closures at weekends, those are planned engineering works precisely to try and fix the problems with reliability.

― ledge, Friday, 20 February 2009 22:40 (4 years ago) Permalink

The fact that for years every station has had a whiteboard at the turnstiles enumerating which lines have problems is kind of a red flag.

― Tracer Hand, Friday, 20 February 2009 22:43 (4 years ago) Permalink

What about the fact that I get to where I want to go quickly and hassle free 99% of the time?

The historical lack of investment is obvious and the problems it causes are obvious

This is true. I'm not saying there are no problems. But the chicken little attitude does not chime with my experience at all.

― ledge, Friday, 20 February 2009 22:52 (4 years ago) Permalink

I wonder if there's a complete mismatch in our expectations, or even what we're discussing?

You're talking about "the middle of town - i.e. all the bits that most visitors think of as London" - I'm talking about the wider London experience.

You're talking about cost of single journeys - I'm talking about the cost of using it as a day in, day out commuter.

I think visitors who stick to the centre of town have a very different experience from those who slog in to the centre day, in, day out.

― Bob Six, Friday, 20 February 2009 22:57 (4 years ago) Permalink

Well I live at Waterloo so slogging in to the centre is not an issue, I'm already there. And I am kinda spoilt for choice with journey options, 4 lines and countless buses. I commuted on the tube for six months last year, and 9 months about uh 9 years ago, but I've never bought even a weekly travelcard. I do think it's crazy to say coverage is poor - in terms of stations it must be in the top five in the world?

― ledge, Friday, 20 February 2009 23:07 (4 years ago) Permalink

yeah loads of stations for like theydon fucking bois

― Tracer Hand, Friday, 20 February 2009 23:56 (4 years ago) Permalink

And the ten different stations in Ealing.

― James Mitchell, Friday, 20 February 2009 23:58 (4 years ago) Permalink

just partition london and be done with it

― whatever, Saturday, 21 February 2009 00:09 (4 years ago) Permalink

London transport is very idiosyncratic - generally fine, BUT subject to occasional and seemingly arbitrary fuck ups that will sabotage your entire day. Also there are certain seemingly straightforward routes that cannot be relied on at all if you have to be somewhere punctually, such as the number fucking 4.

Hey, Autumn Almanac, are the trams in Melbourne still basically free? Seemed to be when I was there for a bit four years ago...

― chap, Saturday, 21 February 2009 01:06 (4 years ago) Permalink

Nah, they've stepped up patrols. So basically we have to pay for the broken service now.

― we r from twitteronia, we connect (Autumn Almanac), Saturday, 21 February 2009 01:10 (4 years ago) Permalink

i seriously cannot believe that anyone is defending the london public transport system omg! surely the best you can possibly say about it is that it exists and occasionally even works w/no delays or jams and gets you to places on time, but every other major city in the world that i've been to has a public transport system which puts london to shame.

― lex pretend, Saturday, 21 February 2009 04:00 (4 years ago) Permalink

that is insane, ldn transport is incredible...anyone complaining about it has never lived in another city

― Local Garda, Saturday, 21 February 2009 05:16 (4 years ago) Permalink

When I went to London it was shocking how much more efficient, effective, and functional (if not more expensive) than anywhere else I'd been (and what more in an enormous city that deals with enormous volumes of people).

― mehlt, Saturday, 21 February 2009 06:52 (4 years ago) Permalink

As a little experiment, to see if opinions differ depending on where you live, I've made a collaborative Google map. Stick a red pin in if you think tfl is shit, or a green pin if you think it's great. If you are really unable to commit to either extreme I guess you could use a yellow pin.

Email me at tom dotttt ledger attt gmail dotttt com for an invite, once you're in you can invite other people too.

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&oe=UTF8&msa=0&msid=106594618650848772292.0004636ab35215c6d1d70

― ledge, Saturday, 21 February 2009 10:02 (4 years ago) Permalink

Ledge, London is more than Zone 1.

It's a HELL of a lot more than Zone 1, and it's totally arrogant and elitist to judge the entire system on a tiny sliver of an experience that is totally unaffordable to the great majority of people that live in London.

The fact that we've been promised a tube for years, and STILL never got one (where are they sending our promised line? Oh yeah, to Clapham - because they're *so* short of train lines) - the fact that we STILL are not on the Oyster card system after how many years? And the fact that this is true of vast swathes of South London (sorry, we *are* London, even though lots of people would like to pretend otherwise) is indicative of MASSIVE FAIL.

― Good Wizzard Meets Naughty Wizzard (Masonic Boom), Saturday, 21 February 2009 10:10 (4 years ago) Permalink

The bus service in London is far better than that of any other city. The Tube has its problems, but is still pretty good IMO.

― zero learnt from nero (Neil S), Saturday, 21 February 2009 10:11 (4 years ago) Permalink

And problems with the rail service can be blamed on the ludicrous franchising schemes when the Tories broke up British Rail in the arly 90s.

― zero learnt from nero (Neil S), Saturday, 21 February 2009 10:13 (4 years ago) Permalink

It's true, the buses are pretty great.

― Leon Brambles (G00blar), Saturday, 21 February 2009 10:14 (4 years ago) Permalink

In fact, rail in S London would do well to be given over to TFL- the former Silverlink line in N London has improved immeasurably since this happened last year.

And there is going to be a similar orbital rail link in S London, from Surrey Quays to Clapham, run by TFL:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7886008.stm

Whatever the problems with the Olympics, London travel will be significantly improved.

― zero learnt from nero (Neil S), Saturday, 21 February 2009 10:18 (4 years ago) Permalink

Do the buses in Birmingham still make you pay for your ticket by putting your coins into a dispenser that, in order to be more efficient, doesn't give change? That was always fun.

― William Bloody Swygart, Saturday, 21 February 2009 10:20 (4 years ago) Permalink

There's no lateral S London rail link extending into Lewisham, Bexley and beyond. Which has always irritated me a teeny bit. Everything, literally everything, passes through London Bridge/Charing Cross for us lot. Normally this isn't too much of a problem, to be fair.

lol Birmingham

― I want sprinkles (country matters), Saturday, 21 February 2009 10:22 (4 years ago) Permalink

I think the transport is fantastic, though shit if you live south of the river.
I also read an independent review a while ago that put our 'metro' system as the most cost effective/efficient considering its size and availability, and also considering the number of people that use it each day.

It's easy to complain but we actually have a very good underground network, consisting of one of the largest networks of stations, geographical coverage, number of lines and connections, speed, etc etc.

― Josh L, Saturday, 21 February 2009 10:28 (4 years ago) Permalink

Ledge, London is more than Zone 1.

Noooo shiiiitttt

a tiny sliver of an experience that is totally unaffordable to the great majority of people that live in London.

I'm sorry I'll shut up and get back to stuffing my face with caviar in my five mill riverside penthouse suite.

― ledge, Saturday, 21 February 2009 10:33 (4 years ago) Permalink

don't live in south london guys

― \∫Öζ/.... argh oh noes! (ken c), Saturday, 21 February 2009 10:33 (4 years ago) Permalink

i can and i will

― I want sprinkles (country matters), Saturday, 21 February 2009 10:34 (4 years ago) Permalink

That south circular rail was supposed to go to Streatham - it's now not. We got sold this massive scheme whereby they are going to knock down our Leisure Centre and build a massive Tescos in its place, in preparation for putting the tube station in the complex - but now we're not getting the tube, and we're still getting the sodding Tesco. :-(

I swear, since the re-conglomeration of the trains, service is getting worse. I didn't think anything could be worse than Thameslink, but First Crapital Connect still manage to somehow be.

And as to what they're doing to "upgrade" the system - basically shutting down trains to South London at evenings and weekends - because why on earth would anyone need to leave South London at the weekend? And oh yeah, let's shut the Victoria line at the same time - and close Oval, which is the one station on the Northern Line where it's actually convenient to get Brixton bound busses? Yeah, someone didn't think that one through.

I admit, this is a lot of venting, but I have just so much built up anger about how TFL treats South London.

― Good Wizzard Meets Naughty Wizzard (Masonic Boom), Saturday, 21 February 2009 10:34 (4 years ago) Permalink

what about stockwell?

― \∫Öζ/.... argh oh noes! (ken c), Saturday, 21 February 2009 10:36 (4 years ago) Permalink

wtf they can't close the only cricket-specific tube station

― I want sprinkles (country matters), Saturday, 21 February 2009 10:51 (4 years ago) Permalink

they can't

― I want sprinkles (country matters), Saturday, 21 February 2009 10:51 (4 years ago) Permalink

By the sound of things getting in and out of Lewisham is absolutely fine compared to South London further west. I very rarely have problems tbh.

Kate, seriously, just get an Oyster card, you've been having this rant for two or three years now. I've had two PAYG Oysters that they've never charged me a deposit for, that may be their fuckup though. And even if you do have to pay a fiver, the deposit pays for itself in two journeys anyway. And it's fucking useful on buses, which really ARE overpriced for non-Oyster users.

Also this is worth reading.

― David Bentley: Rhythm Ace (Matt DC), Saturday, 21 February 2009 11:41 (4 years ago) Permalink

Where did you buy your Oyster that you didn't have to pay a deposit for?

They don't even sell them at my rail station. :-(

― Good Wizzard Meets Naughty Wizzard (Masonic Boom), Saturday, 21 February 2009 13:35 (4 years ago) Permalink

also p.s.:

When you first get your Oyster card, you will need to pay a refundable £3 deposit if you are only adding cash to pay as you go.

― Leon Brambles (G00blar), Saturday, 21 February 2009 13:38 (4 years ago) Permalink

xpost i think the deposit is three pounds rather than five?

The thing about transport in london is that ok the tubes are up the spout more often than not, and the rail system seriously needs to get joined up, but the buses are fantastic. On the other hand I am seriously pissed off that fares are set to go up like 6% this year, mostly cos boris johnson wants a budget that looks good?

― c sharp major, Saturday, 21 February 2009 13:46 (4 years ago) Permalink

that is insane, ldn transport is incredible...anyone complaining about it has never lived in another city

― Local Garda, Saturday, 21 February 2009 05:16 (8 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

qft

― Peter "One Dart" Manley (The stickman from the hilarious xkcd comics), Saturday, 21 February 2009 13:49 (4 years ago) Permalink

I mean, in Northampton, buses run between 7am and 6pm. Just as a comparison point.

― Peter "One Dart" Manley (The stickman from the hilarious xkcd comics), Saturday, 21 February 2009 13:50 (4 years ago) Permalink

xp Any newsagent who sells travel cards will sell Oyster cards too.

― zero learnt from nero (Neil S), Saturday, 21 February 2009 13:50 (4 years ago) Permalink

Even in a city as big as Bristol, there are no such things as night buses, and Manchester's will allow you to go down the Oxford Road, anywhere else you're screwed. It was a big deal when the bus system went down the other day due to snow- the first time this has ever happened apart from Xmas day.

Pretty much every major bus route in london will run every 15 mins throughout every night- amazing, IMO.

― zero learnt from nero (Neil S), Saturday, 21 February 2009 13:53 (4 years ago) Permalink

I have lived in other cities. I have lived in NYC, whose mass transit system is so much better than London's it's not even funny.

Pretty much every major bus route in london will run every 15 mins throughout every nigh

Just. Not. Fucking. True. The number of times I've waited half an hour to an hour in the freezing cold on London Bridge...

― Good Wizzard Meets Naughty Wizzard (Masonic Boom), Saturday, 21 February 2009 13:54 (4 years ago) Permalink

Well, compare the buses to the buses you get in the US, which are twice the size and hold half as many people.

Though I really liked last weekend when only three out of the 12 (?) Tube lines were running in full without any kind of closures.

― James Mitchell, Saturday, 21 February 2009 13:56 (4 years ago) Permalink

I suppose timetabling might not match the reality, but even so.

― zero learnt from nero (Neil S), Saturday, 21 February 2009 14:00 (4 years ago) Permalink

lol if we have to compare to other UK cities to make london seem halfway decent...compare to tokyo or berlin, where the metro lines run to the minute.

the london bus system is good, yes, but in practical terms this is counterbalanced by the congestion on the roads.

― lex pretend, Saturday, 21 February 2009 14:00 (4 years ago) Permalink

I mean, in Northampton, buses run between 7am and 6pm. Just as a comparison point.

Northampton isn't exactly a global capital of 7 or 8 million people, though, is it? The best comparison is with other major Western European capitals, and frankly, I can't think of a single one that is as bad or as expensive as London. It took me an hour to get from Stoke Newington to Waterloo yesterday, hardly a huge distance.

― Zelda Zonk, Saturday, 21 February 2009 14:03 (4 years ago) Permalink

and an hour from stoke newington to waterloo is REALLY GOOD for that route.

when i worked in soho i experimented with walking home to dalston a few times, and it took me 10 fewer minutes than my usual bus journey.

― lex pretend, Saturday, 21 February 2009 14:05 (4 years ago) Permalink

I grew up in London, then moved back here six months ago - I work to work, but take the tube to see friends/ go out etc, mostly on weekends.

I would say I get to where I want to go quickly and hassle free about 40% of the time, and am able to get to where I want to go, at all (without using an unexpected bus and being so late there's no point in going), another 35% of the time. I don't really think that's acceptable, maybe other people would? This is Zone 1 btw.

― Gravel Puzzleworth, Saturday, 21 February 2009 14:15 (4 years ago) Permalink

I live in Stoke Newington, and work in Waterloo, and my commute takes an hour. The problem with Stoke Newington is not the bus service, it's the lack of tube stations, but that's a choice I made when I moved here. When I lived in Maida Vale, I could get from home to work, door to door, in half an hour.

― zero learnt from nero (Neil S), Saturday, 21 February 2009 14:24 (4 years ago) Permalink

Anyway, I agree that public transport in London is not as good as it should be. Key reason, in my opinion, is the fact that London was without any cewntral government for about 15 years. I know it's a cliche to blame Mrs T, but her government bears responsibility for London's transport problems, I think.

― zero learnt from nero (Neil S), Saturday, 21 February 2009 14:26 (4 years ago) Permalink

when i worked in soho i experimented with walking home to dalston a few times, and it took me 10 fewer minutes than my usual bus journey.

The near-constant bottleneck of traffic on Kingsland Road is fucking soul-crushing. I really can't wait for the East London Line extension, it'll make my whole life so much easier. I did once manage to get from Blackheath to Dalston in half an hour, that must have been some kind of record.

― David Bentley: Rhythm Ace (Matt DC), Saturday, 21 February 2009 15:00 (4 years ago) Permalink

The only major international city I've been to with a worse public transport system is New York, funnily enough. Although at least New York's seems to work most of the time but it's still annoying as hell.

― David Bentley: Rhythm Ace (Matt DC), Saturday, 21 February 2009 15:21 (4 years ago) Permalink

compare to tokyo or berlin, where the metro lines run to the minute.

tokyo = no night buses, if you want to get home after about 1230 your options are expensive taxi, waiting until the trains start again at 6ish, or... walking! Plus, tokyo buses can have a pretty loose relationship with their timetables.

― c sharp major, Saturday, 21 February 2009 15:48 (4 years ago) Permalink

The best comparison is with other major Western European capitals, and frankly, I can't think of a single one that is as bad or as expensive as London.

Having experienced the overcrowded, overheated slog that is Lisbon's public transport system, I'm calling bullshit on this. Trams look lovely but good god I'd hate to have to use them every day.

― David Bentley: Rhythm Ace (Matt DC), Saturday, 21 February 2009 16:05 (4 years ago) Permalink

The best comparison is with other major Western European capitals, and frankly, I can't think of a single one that is as bad or as expensive as London.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rome_Metro

― Peter "One Dart" Manley (The stickman from the hilarious xkcd comics), Saturday, 21 February 2009 16:21 (4 years ago) Permalink

Don't know Rome but I do know Lisbon, and I can imagine commuting might be tricky. Lisbon is small and poor with tricky geography. At least it's cheap though! But big wealthy cities like Paris, Madrid, Berlin etc... their public transport systems are so far ahead of London's it's not funny.

― Zelda Zonk, Saturday, 21 February 2009 16:51 (4 years ago) Permalink

The near-constant bottleneck of traffic on Kingsland Road is fucking soul-crushing.

i find that kingsland rd is usually ok? unless you mean up by dalston junction itself, in which case otmfm.

other soul-crushing bottlenecks of london which kill me on a regular basis: liverpool street, angel, fucking HOLBORN, jesus christ i hate holborn circus so much. once on my way into work it took me 35 actual minutes to get around it. that day i arrived 1hr and 50 minutes late :(

― lex pretend, Saturday, 21 February 2009 17:19 (4 years ago) Permalink

The traffic going west on Holborn is the worst in the entire city I think. Going east it seems fine but as I work there, I actively try and avoid arranging any meetings west of my office.

― David Bentley: Rhythm Ace (Matt DC), Saturday, 21 February 2009 17:32 (4 years ago) Permalink

Where does anyone live in London?
I am a Londoner born and bred (and proper London at that, none of this south of the river nonsense) and I love the place, but being there for more than a couple of days just wears me out. Getting around is very difficult. Except by foot which can be the greatest thing in the world. Except when it's raining.

― Ned Trifle II, Saturday, 21 February 2009 21:25 (4 years ago) Permalink

6 months pass...

TFL: I appreciate your concern for my transport needs but I can honestly do without an individual email for every sodding bus route that may be facing disruption.

Kindly stick your 521 up your 521.

― N1ck (Upt0eleven), Thursday, 27 August 2009 11:39 (3 years ago) Permalink

first time with a new overground train this morning - no carriage walls so it's like a big long bendy bus! loads of aisle room as well, have to say i was pretty impressed.

gonna have to take the 242 from east into town later and i JUST FUCKING KNOW those lazy cunts will stop it after holborn viaduct LIKE THEY ALWAYS CUNTING DO.

― r|t|c, Thursday, 27 August 2009 12:18 (3 years ago) Permalink

too fucking hot to use the tube in the summer. esp when you have to wear a suit. hopefully the olympics will make TFL put in some AC.

― titchy (titchyschneiderMk2), Thursday, 27 August 2009 16:03 (3 years ago) Permalink

2 months pass...

Hey Londoners who have to get overground trains into work, are you all looking forward to the cut in the number of trains coming into effect on December 13th? Not to mention everyone else who's going to suffer from even more overcrowded tubes and buses as a result?

― Space Battle Rothko (Matt DC), Monday, 23 November 2009 16:49 (3 years ago) Permalink

Having not cycled to work since I broke my leg two months ago I was looking for additional motivation to get back on my bike again. This'll be it, then. Thanks TFL!

― DRUNK SWEDISH CHINTZ (Upt0eleven), Monday, 23 November 2009 16:54 (3 years ago) Permalink

I've just checked and there are now FOUR fewer trains going from my local station between 7 and 9am.

― Space Battle Rothko (Matt DC), Monday, 23 November 2009 16:55 (3 years ago) Permalink

this is exactly the kind of thing that kicks my work ethic out of its default slumber - if i don't get on with this shit THIS IS THE ALTERNATIVE

― lex pretend, Monday, 23 November 2009 17:00 (3 years ago) Permalink

hang on WHAT

― my fave thing to do on the computer is what im doing right now (acoleuthic), Monday, 23 November 2009 17:03 (3 years ago) Permalink

Think the way it worked was:

Govt: "Hey guess what, we're going to stop subsidising you as much and you'll have to pay back some of the money we gave you"

Rail companies: "Okay but you'll have to let us cut some services to make up the shortfall"

Govt: "Okay!"

― Space Battle Rothko (Matt DC), Monday, 23 November 2009 17:04 (3 years ago) Permalink

(I think some companies have already implemented the cuts and others haven't yet, it's only South Eastern Trains cuts that come into force next month)

― Space Battle Rothko (Matt DC), Monday, 23 November 2009 17:05 (3 years ago) Permalink

> cut in the number of trains coming into effect on December 13th?

saw a poster on tube yesterday trumpeting an increase in tube frequencies (circle line, hammersmith and city)

― koogs, Monday, 23 November 2009 17:06 (3 years ago) Permalink

Which is of next to no use to most people who are likely to be affected by this.

― Space Battle Rothko (Matt DC), Monday, 23 November 2009 17:07 (3 years ago) Permalink

remind me if the impending latest fare rises are lower than inflation or whut

― mdskltr (blueski), Monday, 23 November 2009 17:07 (3 years ago) Permalink

not being funny here but aside from matt dc i am probably the most-affected ilxor by this because i live in the no-tube heaven that is SE London

also i am a miserable penniless student

― my fave thing to do on the computer is what im doing right now (acoleuthic), Monday, 23 November 2009 17:09 (3 years ago) Permalink

everyone at connex south whatever they're called these days can frankly do one...i hate you

― my fave thing to do on the computer is what im doing right now (acoleuthic), Monday, 23 November 2009 17:10 (3 years ago) Permalink

increasing numbers of circle and h&c trains? not evident by my shit journey today.

― mmmm, Monday, 23 November 2009 17:11 (3 years ago) Permalink

ah, this is what they meant (poster was circle line but also talked about hammersmith which isn't on the circle line. yet.)

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/transport/article6927561.ece

― koogs, Monday, 23 November 2009 17:13 (3 years ago) Permalink

(and that's only from dec 13th)

― koogs, Monday, 23 November 2009 17:13 (3 years ago) Permalink

I think there are commuter towns/villages in Kent that are seeing their number of trains into the City halved. Cannon Street services look like they're bearing the brunt of the cuts. Oh, and they've added more services through to Victoria meaning that people will have to pile on the Tube from there.

― Space Battle Rothko (Matt DC), Monday, 23 November 2009 17:15 (3 years ago) Permalink

(Haha also way to piss off swing voters in middle class areas just before an election dudes)

― Space Battle Rothko (Matt DC), Monday, 23 November 2009 17:16 (3 years ago) Permalink

i'm voting for the Civil Disobedience Party

― my fave thing to do on the computer is what im doing right now (acoleuthic), Monday, 23 November 2009 17:17 (3 years ago) Permalink

Oh, and they've added more services through to Victoria meaning that people will have to pile on the Tube from there.

I'm constantly tempted to take the train into Victoria station in the mornings in an attempt to shorten my journey to work, but the thought of
1. having to wade through the mass of people trying to get through 3ish gates and down 1 elevator and then
2. having to bypass 5+ trains because I'm not gutsy enough to elbow my way onto them
fills me with dread.

They really need to open a second down elevator and switch the entrance gates if they're going to be able to handle an influx of train passengers in that station, I think.

Until then I will continue to take the longer but relatively relaxed bus/tube journey.

― salsa sharkshavin (salsa shark), Monday, 23 November 2009 17:28 (3 years ago) Permalink

london bridge tube station at rush hour is a vision of hades fwiw

― my fave thing to do on the computer is what im doing right now (acoleuthic), Monday, 23 November 2009 17:29 (3 years ago) Permalink

Yeah that interchange is as horrific as virtually everywhere on the Jubilee/Northern lines is. And getting on the Northern Line there during peak hours is virtually impossible.

― Space Battle Rothko (Matt DC), Monday, 23 November 2009 17:32 (3 years ago) Permalink

as i have had to do every weekday morning for nine weeks and they wonder why i've snapped

― my fave thing to do on the computer is what im doing right now (acoleuthic), Monday, 23 November 2009 17:33 (3 years ago) Permalink

Have been hearing worrying reports of this from

http://twitter.com/ihatethameslink

I am so glad I have flexitime, so I can wait and bypass the helltimes.

As awful as both Victoria and London Bridge are to transfer, neither of them are as bad as ::shudders:: Elephant & Castle.

― Cosmic Dentistry (Masonic Boom), Monday, 23 November 2009 17:35 (3 years ago) Permalink

I read somewhere that the Northern Line is the busiest of all lines. If that's true I'm glad I rarely have to use it.

My morning tube journeys start either at Brixton or E&C, so at least I always get a seat. E&C is a total shithole (definite *shudders* -- I get a bus there on the way home and I rarely enjoy being there unless I can overhear grown men arguing about Jesus). I find the worst thing about interchanging at E&C for any service to be the way the station sprawls and the way it's so crowded all the time where the buses stop.

― salsa sharkshavin (salsa shark), Monday, 23 November 2009 17:39 (3 years ago) Permalink

Hey, I actually quite love Elephant & Castle, as a place. But I recognise that it takes a certain kind of Sarf London grimness to appreciate it. (also, the Faraday Memorial! my ex was obsessed with that thing.) I admit that it's one of the Seven Hellmouths of London, but hey, I've got a soft spot for hellmouths.

I just hate having to transfer there, ESPECIALLY when they're only running one of the damn elevators like they were the other night.

I don't know how they manage to have so many different lines pass through there, pretend to transfer and actually be NOWHERE NEAR one another.

― Cosmic Dentistry (Masonic Boom), Monday, 23 November 2009 17:45 (3 years ago) Permalink

My morning tube journeys start either at Brixton or E&C, so at least I always get a seat.

Same, when I bother with it at all. The buses from Peckham/Dulwich have actually been fairly reliable recently and seem to (mostly) make it up the Walworth Road in relatively decent time so I've generally been able to avoid getting off at E&C to accelerate my journey. It still takes ages but at least it's relatively pleasant.

(Having said that, it's now guaranteed to be a fucker tomorrow and i'll still be a Camberwell at 8.30)

― DRUNK SWEDISH CHINTZ (Upt0eleven), Monday, 23 November 2009 17:50 (3 years ago) Permalink

I could have sworn there was a thread about the Elephant and Castle on ILX, but I cannot seem to find it. :-(

― Cosmic Dentistry (Masonic Boom), Monday, 23 November 2009 17:53 (3 years ago) Permalink

hey, so you're in Peckham/Dulwich too!? I wonder if we've ever unknowingly shared a bus or a pub.

On the way home I sometimes take buses that go along Old Kent Road, which at the very least is a nice scenery change from Walworth, but I find the clog near Peckham is probably worse than Camberwell and cancels out any progress made on OKR compared to Walworth :(

― salsa sharkshavin (salsa shark), Monday, 23 November 2009 18:03 (3 years ago) Permalink

I think It's pretty likely we've shared a pub or a 12 or a 176 or a 40 or a 37 at some point. Given up your seat to a bloke on crutches recently? was prob me.

On the other flip side to the upthread news yo: Overland trains to accept Oyster

Will a PAYG oyster still max out when you've hit the price of a day's travel card? Pretty great if that was the case tbh.

― DRUNK SWEDISH CHINTZ (Upt0eleven), Monday, 23 November 2009 20:49 (3 years ago) Permalink

How much is "the price of a day's travel card" now, anyway? I'd guess about £8.50 or some stupid amount?

― James Mitchell, Monday, 23 November 2009 21:58 (3 years ago) Permalink

£5.60 for zones 1-2 without any railcard, I think. or maybe more now, I don't know, mine caps out at a lower rate.

xpost, haven't seen any dudes on crutches. I will be sure to get overly excited and post about it if I do, though.

― salsa sharkshavin (salsa shark), Monday, 23 November 2009 22:57 (3 years ago) Permalink

I do Gipsy Hill-Victoria (then 38 bus)/London Bridge (then change for Char X) every day. The 17min gap between services at the time I'm most likely to get down to the station in the morning already sucks, so if it's about to get worse... (It goes 07:45, 07:51, 07:53, 07:57...08:14).

Today, you may be delighted to know, I passed out/threw up simultaneously on a 38. Just christening the new, shiny double deckers, y'understand. (Lovely woman from Charlton bought me a bottle of water and walked me to the station. Bloody child-borne stomach viruses).

― Michael Jones, Monday, 23 November 2009 23:05 (3 years ago) Permalink

I used to go through L Bridge, fucking horrible.

Now Bethnal Green to White City...fling myself onto a central line and it's 30 mins door to door. Changing jobs tho so I go to rush hour for first time starting tomorrow.

― I see what this is (Local Garda), Monday, 23 November 2009 23:09 (3 years ago) Permalink

good luck with that, my memory of the central line at rush hour was of unmitigated hell, I used to get on a liverpool street and they would often close the platforms it was so crowded.

― American Fear of Pranksterism (Ed), Monday, 23 November 2009 23:16 (3 years ago) Permalink

will be at 9 o clock so maybe not absolute worst. on way home is fine, always seats at white city.

― I see what this is (Local Garda), Monday, 23 November 2009 23:18 (3 years ago) Permalink

Haha if there's one thing that consoles me about overground trains it's no longer having to go through the abject hell of getting on the Tube at rush hour. 9am will probably be alright though.

― Space Battle Rothko (Matt DC), Tuesday, 24 November 2009 10:00 (3 years ago) Permalink

This may change when my comfortable always-get-a-seat train evaporates next month.

― Space Battle Rothko (Matt DC), Tuesday, 24 November 2009 10:04 (3 years ago) Permalink

Central Line at Holborn is major hellmouth at rush hour - unless I'm disembarking, there's no way on Earth that I'll go there between 5 and 7 pm. The corner where the station sits - and there's only one way in -absolutely heaves with people. The only saving grace of having to use the station at that time is that I can usually insinuate myself into a seat because of the people changing trains.

― viagra falls (suzy), Tuesday, 24 November 2009 10:29 (3 years ago) Permalink

The worst thing is there are two or three stalls plonked right outside the station making the bottleneck worse. The corner of Kingsway and Holborn could *really* do with an Oxford Circus style Japanese X-crossing.

― Space Battle Rothko (Matt DC), Tuesday, 24 November 2009 10:33 (3 years ago) Permalink

no more tube/bus commute to work as of next week :) five minute walk bliss. (actually might still take the 29 up two stops)

― I sb'ed your mum (ken c), Tuesday, 24 November 2009 10:34 (3 years ago) Permalink

^^^ Holy grail

― Space Battle Rothko (Matt DC), Tuesday, 24 November 2009 10:36 (3 years ago) Permalink

many xposts, Those new 38s look like yachts on wheels. I saw about 4 drive by in a row at Angel the other day and marveled at their bright, clean insides. Hope all the bendies turn into swanky new buses like that..

― salsa sharkshavin (salsa shark), Tuesday, 24 November 2009 10:37 (3 years ago) Permalink

i saw 5 38s in a row on friday night. clearly they sail in schools.

― mdskltr (blueski), Tuesday, 24 November 2009 10:51 (3 years ago) Permalink

The new regime of the 38 double-decker doesn't seem like a total disaster and they are absurdly frequent now. Even though the bus station at Victoria now has the same endlessly-snaking queues you see at Waterloo opposite the Imax (due to the single point-of-entry thing), they're always moving and there's usually two or three buses stacked up ready to go. Spacious inside too - loads of legroom.

Sorry for barfing on you, new 38.

― Michael Jones, Tuesday, 24 November 2009 16:31 (3 years ago) Permalink

I don't think there was ever any question of the changeover being a total disaster, contrary to the predictions of some of the more pessimistic observers. True, they (38s) were Routemasters before, but there are large numbers of other routes in the areas the 38 passes through that use modern double-deckers (eg 19, 14, 341, 243 etc. etc.).

I've travelled twice on the new 38s now and was struck on both occasions by an unpleasant smell. The first time, I was convinced it was an unwashed passenger causing it, because the smell is very similar to that of chronically dirty clothes plus body odour, but it seems it's the upholstery of the seats that's to blame, because I noticed the smell again during my second journey.

― dubmill, Tuesday, 24 November 2009 18:16 (3 years ago) Permalink

Do you still smell it now, where you're sitting?

― Tracer Hand, Tuesday, 24 November 2009 20:11 (3 years ago) Permalink

maybe dubmill was in the seat mike barfed on

― mdskltr (blueski), Tuesday, 24 November 2009 20:14 (3 years ago) Permalink

I guess when he got on the second bus, he still had vomit on his butt.

― Tracer Hand, Tuesday, 24 November 2009 20:24 (3 years ago) Permalink

Do you still smell it now, where you're sitting?

No, I'd considered the possibility you are implying, but on both oocasions I had showered and was wearing clean clothes. I also noted that the smell was absent when I transferred onto other buses after getting off the 38.

― dubmill, Tuesday, 24 November 2009 21:02 (3 years ago) Permalink

Heaven and Hell experience today - perhaps typical of London.

This morning - Hell - Roads snarled up and Vauxhall bus garage eventually completely shut and r because of an accident on the Albert Embankment. 70 minutes to travel by bus from Vauxhall to Westminster Abbey (approx 15 minutes walk/10 minute bus journey usuall). Do the police really need to delay hundreds of people over one accident?

This evening - Heaven - home in half an hour or less from stepping out of the Anoushka Shankar concert at Sadlers Wells via the Northern and Victoria lines.

― Bob Six, Tuesday, 24 November 2009 23:04 (3 years ago) Permalink

Maybe there's a very smelly man who just rides the 38 all day every day.

― Space Battle Rothko (Matt DC), Tuesday, 24 November 2009 23:05 (3 years ago) Permalink

i was riding the 38 the other day, and then a man came in and he said he wanted hackney. he was a smelly man. driver did not like him. driver said 'we didn't go to any hackney' .. and then the man just went!

― I sb'ed your mum (ken c), Wednesday, 25 November 2009 00:30 (3 years ago) Permalink

2 months pass...

omg omg I finally got to ride on a new Victoria Line train. it was clean! it was spacious! the Train Lady Voice told me which side of the train the doors were going to open at the next stop!

― salsa sharkshavin (salsa shark), Friday, 29 January 2010 13:43 (3 years ago) Permalink

wait what

― Colonel Poo, Friday, 29 January 2010 15:13 (3 years ago) Permalink

1 month passes...

hang on wtf is going down out there

― with 4 magical horns & 3 figures to impale! (acoleuthic), Wednesday, 3 March 2010 09:55 (3 years ago) Permalink

There's a file under the railway arches at Rotherhithe according to the TFL site, and it appears to have completely wrecked all the London Bridge services.

― Tim, Wednesday, 3 March 2010 10:07 (3 years ago) Permalink

Wait hold on there aren't any railway arches in Rotherhithe. I suppose they must mean somewhere in Bermondsey. But I'm looking at the area right now and I can't see a fire. Maybe it's small, or extinguished. Or maybe something else is going on.

― Tim, Wednesday, 3 March 2010 10:09 (3 years ago) Permalink

South Bermondsey, arch by Debnams Road.

― ned ragú (suzy), Wednesday, 3 March 2010 10:12 (3 years ago) Permalink

apparently SE London has been cut off, which will really facilitate the journey in I was planning on taking now

― with 4 magical horns & 3 figures to impale! (acoleuthic), Wednesday, 3 March 2010 10:13 (3 years ago) Permalink

I got in fine from Forest Hill this morning but I think I was lucky to get on the one non-cancelled train in the space of half an hour.

The DLR also appears to be closed at Lewisham now. Very strange.

― Matt DC, Wednesday, 3 March 2010 10:20 (3 years ago) Permalink

Perhaps they should just give us an official South East London-only bank holiday every time there is a big fire in Bermondsey (ie about once every six months).

― Matt DC, Wednesday, 3 March 2010 10:21 (3 years ago) Permalink

IT'S LOCKDOWN

― with 4 magical horns & 3 figures to impale! (acoleuthic), Wednesday, 3 March 2010 10:21 (3 years ago) Permalink

commence bio-seeding procedure

― with 4 magical horns & 3 figures to impale! (acoleuthic), Wednesday, 3 March 2010 10:21 (3 years ago) Permalink

http://blackheathbugle.wordpress.com/2010/03/03/no-trains-no-dlr-every-bus-is-full/

― Matt DC, Wednesday, 3 March 2010 10:22 (3 years ago) Permalink

I got in fine from Forest Hill this morning

Matt has a GURLFRIEND ew

― with 4 magical horns & 3 figures to impale! (acoleuthic), Wednesday, 3 March 2010 10:22 (3 years ago) Permalink

No obvious smoke rising around Debnam Road right now, which I suppose is good news.

No obvious trains running either. On the jubilee Line thhis morning they were saying that Southern are only running Victoria services, maybe you can find your way to a station which serves Victoria Louis?

― Tim, Wednesday, 3 March 2010 10:23 (3 years ago) Permalink

Oh and around Canary Wharf the DLR is fine.

― Tim, Wednesday, 3 March 2010 10:23 (3 years ago) Permalink

Victoria doesn't do me a great deal of good OH LOL I just looked out of the window and it's TRAFFIC CARNAGE hahahahaha

― with 4 magical horns & 3 figures to impale! (acoleuthic), Wednesday, 3 March 2010 10:24 (3 years ago) Permalink

(At least, I can see the DLR trains moving.)

― Tim, Wednesday, 3 March 2010 10:24 (3 years ago) Permalink

Anyone got a helicopter?

― with 4 magical horns & 3 figures to impale! (acoleuthic), Wednesday, 3 March 2010 10:25 (3 years ago) Permalink

My fucking course director has told me I have to come in because 'the tubes are fine'. Really appreciate your assumption that the Tube is ubiquitous within Greater London

― with 4 magical horns & 3 figures to impale! (acoleuthic), Wednesday, 3 March 2010 10:31 (3 years ago) Permalink

DLR is running South of Canary Wharf; Jubilee is fine; boats seem to be mooching quite happily up and down the river.

I dunno where you are, LJ.

― Tim, Wednesday, 3 March 2010 10:35 (3 years ago) Permalink

Am in Lee Green so basically fucked over x10 by this shambles

― with 4 magical horns & 3 figures to impale! (acoleuthic), Wednesday, 3 March 2010 10:36 (3 years ago) Permalink

<3 the mental bus drivers cramming every last person on this morning. wing mirrors? fuck 'em!

― what kind of present your naked body (Upt0eleven), Wednesday, 3 March 2010 10:45 (3 years ago) Permalink

― James Mitchell, Wednesday, 3 March 2010 10:48 (3 years ago) Permalink

In the hour you've spent on your computer you could have walked to North Greenwich, heh.

― Tim, Wednesday, 3 March 2010 10:50 (3 years ago) Permalink

^^^be quiet

― with 4 magical horns & 3 figures to impale! (acoleuthic), Wednesday, 3 March 2010 10:52 (3 years ago) Permalink

Or Lewisham, if you prefer.

― Tim, Wednesday, 3 March 2010 10:53 (3 years ago) Permalink

I've heard the DLR is pretty much in lockdown as well for some reason or other, but I'm about to give it a shot.

― with 4 magical horns & 3 figures to impale! (acoleuthic), Wednesday, 3 March 2010 10:54 (3 years ago) Permalink

Trains are on the move between Canary Wharf and the City, that much I can tell you.

― Tim, Wednesday, 3 March 2010 10:55 (3 years ago) Permalink

(DLR robotrains obv)

― Tim, Wednesday, 3 March 2010 10:55 (3 years ago) Permalink

Gipsy Hill-London Bridge wasn't too bad but no onward connections to Char X whatsoever. Took Jubilee Line (let one train go; very squashy but kinda standard for a.m. rush-hour) to Waterloo, walked over bridge (didn't pay for Tube trip - just flashed my rail ticket at the barrier guard). Could've gone on to Green Park for a quicker walk to the office but that might've been stretching the definition of "acceptable alternative route" and I didn't want an argument.

― Michael Jones, Wednesday, 3 March 2010 11:07 (3 years ago) Permalink

But, yeah, about 45min late.

― Michael Jones, Wednesday, 3 March 2010 11:07 (3 years ago) Permalink

the DLR was working really rather well - so well I'd almost but not quite consider implementing it into my regular journey

― with 4 magical horns & 3 figures to impale! (acoleuthic), Wednesday, 3 March 2010 14:42 (3 years ago) Permalink

Where do you have to get to? The Bank line takes way longer to get you into zone 1 than the trains do.

― Matt DC, Wednesday, 3 March 2010 14:45 (3 years ago) Permalink

lee -> angel islington

usual route -> london bridge -> angel islington

this route -> lewisham -> bank -> angel islington

way longer but kinda groovy - I totally sat at the front ^_^

― with 4 magical horns & 3 figures to impale! (acoleuthic), Wednesday, 3 March 2010 14:48 (3 years ago) Permalink

1 month passes...

East London Line is now running between Dalston Junction and New Cross/New Cross Gate.

― ketchup scam (useless chamber), Tuesday, 27 April 2010 13:36 (3 years ago) Permalink

might try it on my way home later if not too packed

― mdskltr (blueski), Tuesday, 27 April 2010 13:41 (3 years ago) Permalink

Anyone else seen how many 'new Routemasters' Boris is planning to replace London's 83 bendy buses with?

Five...

― James Mitchell, Tuesday, 27 April 2010 13:52 (3 years ago) Permalink

hackney podcast all about buses -

http://hackneypodcast.co.uk/2010/02/edition-17-buses/

― Tracer Hand, Tuesday, 27 April 2010 13:53 (3 years ago) Permalink

Getting any bus at all up Kingsland Road is pretty much the worst public transport experience you can have in London so I am overjoyed about this.

Any line running from New Cross to Dalston via Shoreditch is going to reach hipster critical mass very soon.

― Matt DC, Tuesday, 27 April 2010 14:03 (3 years ago) Permalink

It basically puts my best friend on tap. Capital work, London

― sausage s4rgent (acoleuthic), Tuesday, 27 April 2010 14:04 (3 years ago) Permalink

Getting any bus at all up Kingsland Road is pretty much the worst public transport experience you can have in London

this is a nonsense, as there are so many buses. only had one horrendous experience with it since i moved back to Hackney borough.

― mdskltr (blueski), Tuesday, 27 April 2010 14:07 (3 years ago) Permalink

The number of buses isn't the issue, it's the appalling traffic and the inevitable bottleneck. I don't think I've ever got a bus up Kingsland Road that hasn't slowed to a crawl not long after the Geffrye Museum.

― Matt DC, Tuesday, 27 April 2010 14:12 (3 years ago) Permalink

I do it every day and that's a pretty rare occurrence

― mdskltr (blueski), Tuesday, 27 April 2010 14:13 (3 years ago) Permalink

i have always maintained that the worst public transport experience you can have in London is taking the No. 30 anywhere

i have never even attempted taking a bus up the Kingsland Road because i bike up it in MY FIXIE of course*

*i do not have a fixie

― Tracer Hand, Tuesday, 27 April 2010 14:21 (3 years ago) Permalink

This line is good for me. I was touting this as the hipster line at the weekend. It's not running at the weekends till later on in May though says Tfl.

― mmmm, Tuesday, 27 April 2010 14:32 (3 years ago) Permalink

i don't even know what a fixie is

― mdskltr (blueski), Tuesday, 27 April 2010 14:36 (3 years ago) Permalink

i actually have ridden up kingsland road on a fixie.

― the big pink suede panda bear hurts (ledge), Tuesday, 27 April 2010 14:40 (3 years ago) Permalink

And in May all you Nathan Barley types can come down to Crystal Palace and get yr heads duffed in.

― Michael Jones, Tuesday, 27 April 2010 14:50 (3 years ago) Permalink

Mayor of London fails to invite Mayor of Hackney to opening do

― mdskltr (blueski), Tuesday, 27 April 2010 14:54 (3 years ago) Permalink

This would be a lot more useful if it tied in with a single big City station... although maybe the novelty is that it doesn't.

Selfishly, I'd get a lot more use out of a route from Hackney Central to NW London that didn't divert through bloody Stamford Hill or Fins Park...

― Chuck_Tatum, Tuesday, 27 April 2010 15:58 (3 years ago) Permalink

(A bus, that is.)

― Chuck_Tatum, Tuesday, 27 April 2010 15:59 (3 years ago) Permalink

More bus routes from NE London to N/NW London in general would be nice. I usually end up having to go into the centre somewhere and then back out again, like on the tube. I'm really talking about nightbuses tbh, I just get the tube most of the time if it's running.

― a fucking stove just fell on my foot. (Colonel Poo), Tuesday, 27 April 2010 16:01 (3 years ago) Permalink

That's what the Overground's for, surely. Shame it's not running until 2011, or so I've heard.

― Neil S, Tuesday, 27 April 2010 16:08 (3 years ago) Permalink

Overground closes not much later than the tube though. And is mostly only just outside the centre anyway

― a fucking stove just fell on my foot. (Colonel Poo), Tuesday, 27 April 2010 16:14 (3 years ago) Permalink

The new Shoreditch station is close enough to the City really, it's only a 5min walk to Liverpool street.

― Matt DC, Tuesday, 27 April 2010 16:16 (3 years ago) Permalink

http://bnb.bpweb.net/londonoverground/

This will be amazing when it's finally functioning.

― Matt DC, Wednesday, 28 April 2010 10:41 (3 years ago) Permalink

Would be very impressed if someone could now make a map with the Tube inside the concentric circles of the Overground, adhering to the 45deg angles of the Beck design.

― Michael Jones, Wednesday, 28 April 2010 11:02 (3 years ago) Permalink

also a map showing where the trains are updating realtime. i found a map for the Copenhagen metro which does this but it's almost certainly just based on the timetable rather than live.

― mdskltr (blueski), Wednesday, 28 April 2010 11:43 (3 years ago) Permalink

Always loved the Brussels metro signs which have bulbs showing where each train is on each line serving your platform.

― Michael Jones, Wednesday, 28 April 2010 11:54 (3 years ago) Permalink

The trains' positions are already known and indicated on the "Arriving in (x) minutes" boards on the platforms, so I can't see how it would be hard to do.

― Tracer Hand, Wednesday, 28 April 2010 11:56 (3 years ago) Permalink

1 month passes...

Horrible new logo:

Boris Johnson today announced he had sold the naming rights to his new London cycle hire scheme for £25 million.
Barclays Bank, which already sponsors the football Premier League, has agreed to pay the sum in a five-year deal that will see its branding used on the Mayor's 12 “cycle super highways” being created across the capital.
The bike scheme, which will be known as Barclays Cycle Hire, will launch on July 30 in central London. All 6,000 bikes will carry the Barclays logo.

― James Mitchell, Friday, 28 May 2010 19:17 (3 years ago) Permalink

the new east london line is fucked still

― henry rollin rollin rollins (big spoon), Friday, 28 May 2010 20:42 (3 years ago) Permalink

Yes, I'm hearing tales of unreliability, misannounced platforms, cancellations. But I think the novelty of getting to Brick Lane/Docklands/Hoxton in under 40min from Palace (and the fact that Oyster PAYG into Z1 from down here in SE19 is actually a quid cheaper via the ELL (changing at Canada Water or Whitechapel) than the old method of Southern into London Bridge) is outweighing the teething troubles at the mo'.

― Michael Jones, Friday, 28 May 2010 21:19 (3 years ago) Permalink

lol king's cross has a platform 0

― Mark Ronson: "Led Zeppelin were responsible for hip-hop" (acoleuthic), Tuesday, 8 June 2010 17:00 (3 years ago) Permalink

Work at the station has recently uncovered these amazing advertising posters in non-public areas and that date from c1956 - 1959 when the station's lifts were removed and replaced by escalators. These are in an old lift passageway.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/36844288@N00/sets/72157624079183751/

― James Mitchell, Sunday, 13 June 2010 10:35 (3 years ago) Permalink

ELL train runs through its entire announcement vocabulary:

― useless chamber, Sunday, 13 June 2010 10:53 (3 years ago) Permalink

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

― Mark Ronson: "Led Zeppelin were responsible for hip-hop" (acoleuthic), Sunday, 13 June 2010 16:39 (3 years ago) Permalink

"The beast and his armies will rise from the pit to make war with God"

― mdskltr (blueski), Sunday, 13 June 2010 16:43 (3 years ago) Permalink

Really is shit today...Getting from Queensway to south London was a nightmare.

― Bob Six, Sunday, 13 June 2010 21:13 (3 years ago) Permalink

Transport for London has announced that it's lifting all restrictions on the commercial use of its data. The move could fuel an explosion in mobile apps that need access to the datasets, making them more attractive to developers who want to charge for their apps.

http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2010-06/15/surge-of-london-travel-apps-looms-as-tfl-opens-up-data

― James Mitchell, Tuesday, 15 June 2010 13:38 (3 years ago) Permalink

ELL train runs through its entire announcement vocabulary:

I tip my hat to the female voice artist - flawlessly consistent for every one of her recorded takes!

Work at the station has recently uncovered these amazing advertising posters in non-public areas

They're wonderful. A couple of years ago I snapped some late-'80s/early-'90s posters that were uncovered during a refurb at Oxford Circus, but nothing as good as the stuff linked to above...

― Michael Jones, Tuesday, 15 June 2010 13:57 (3 years ago) Permalink

still think they should have some MANnouncers on the trains (and buses) sometimes

― mdskltr (blueski), Tuesday, 15 June 2010 14:03 (3 years ago) Permalink

Stations tend to have male voices don't they? Seem to recall somewhere between Holborn and Piccadilly Circus on the Picc Line having the station PA shouting all over the woman on the train. Would be good to go Barcelona-style and have them share sentences.

― useless chamber, Tuesday, 15 June 2010 14:08 (3 years ago) Permalink

IIRC they use male for platform announcement and female for train so blind people can tell what is making the announcement. Similar in New York I think.

― American Fear of Pranksterism (Ed), Tuesday, 15 June 2010 14:10 (3 years ago) Permalink

was there the other weekend, wasn't as sensible as that - train announcements were '(HIM) The next station is (HER) sagrada familia!'

― sent from my neural lace (ledge), Tuesday, 15 June 2010 14:12 (3 years ago) Permalink

in barcelona that is

― sent from my neural lace (ledge), Tuesday, 15 June 2010 14:13 (3 years ago) Permalink

I like that. Maybe one day he'll snap at her interruptions.

"Please move down inside the bus" drives me mad.

― mdskltr (blueski), Tuesday, 15 June 2010 14:14 (3 years ago) Permalink

esp when the driver starts hammering on it 50 times in a row when the bus is already rammed and nobody can actually move

― salsa shark, Tuesday, 15 June 2010 14:17 (3 years ago) Permalink

also, Croydon tram has a mannouncer

― salsa shark, Tuesday, 15 June 2010 14:17 (3 years ago) Permalink

Really hate the "don't stand on the stairs one", 'cos people just ignore it, so the driver just carries on pressing it - why not just use the PA to tell them off? That used to work pretty well.

― useless chamber, Tuesday, 15 June 2010 14:32 (3 years ago) Permalink

Yeah people might actually respond to a driver's instruction/request more than Robot Woman. But then you might have to pay them the same as tube drivers idk.

― mdskltr (blueski), Tuesday, 15 June 2010 14:34 (3 years ago) Permalink

Nice, if effectively useless: http://traintimes.org.uk/map/tube/

― James Mitchell, Monday, 21 June 2010 11:08 (2 years ago) Permalink

I would actually pay money for 1x app to do that for the buses.

― Tim, Monday, 21 June 2010 11:46 (2 years ago) Permalink

it's only a guess though - takes start times and journey times and linearly interpolates. doesn't allow any time for stopping at stations either.

― koogs, Monday, 21 June 2010 11:58 (2 years ago) Permalink

Oh, in that case, boo.

Presumably a bus tracker which accesses the (admittedly dodgy) information you see on the dot matrices at some bus stops would be possible? I've no idea whether that would work, but I would adore something like this: http://www.ctabustracker.com/bustime/map/displaymap.jsp

― Tim, Monday, 21 June 2010 12:22 (2 years ago) Permalink

I thought NYC had male recordings on the train.. In a big cheerful midwestern accent no less - "Stand clear of the closing doors, please!"

― progressive cuts (Tracer Hand), Monday, 21 June 2010 12:23 (2 years ago) Permalink

occasionally that map will show something zooming into euston and zooming immediately back out again, going about mach2.

tim, just wait for the future:
http://www.mobileinc.co.uk/2009/10/transport-for-london-to-enable-bus-tracking-via-sms-mobile-web-in-2011/

― koogs, Monday, 21 June 2010 12:50 (2 years ago) Permalink

2 weeks pass...

Took the new overground from Hackney to Richmond this weekend -- lovely quick ride, but the windows are TINY. Shame, since the view's one of the best in London I got back ache trying to twist round and look out. </old man>

― Chuck_Tatum, Tuesday, 6 July 2010 12:15 (2 years ago) Permalink

3 weeks pass...

Boris Johnson today warned that his flagship bike hire scheme faces a rash of problems when it launches tomorrow.
A Standard investigation has found that cyclists faced a shortage of bikes and problems returning them to the “docking stations”.
Transport for London this morning admitted that more than around 1,300 of the 6,000 “Boris bikes” will not be ready for hire when the scheme starts at 6am.
Our research also suggests that around 3,000 of the 10,200 docking points will not be built in time.

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23861388-one-day-to-go-and-boris-johnson-admits-bike-hire-problems.do

― James Mitchell, Thursday, 29 July 2010 11:42 (2 years ago) Permalink

Docking station right outside my office. Are they supposed to be working yet?

― tom d: he did what he had to do now he is dead (Tom D.), Thursday, 29 July 2010 11:48 (2 years ago) Permalink

Tomorrow morning, if you have pre-registered for the smart card thing.

― James Mitchell, Thursday, 29 July 2010 11:50 (2 years ago) Permalink

2 weeks pass...

is there a thread for the cycling scheme?

― gnarly sceptre, Tuesday, 17 August 2010 12:23 (2 years ago) Permalink

Boris thread possibly?

― tom d: he did what he had to do now he is dead (Tom D.), Tuesday, 17 August 2010 12:24 (2 years ago) Permalink

bit of chat here: Cycling London

― tetrahedron of space (woof), Tuesday, 17 August 2010 12:27 (2 years ago) Permalink

the Train Lady Voice told me which side of the train the doors were going to open at the next stop!

I got one of them at the weekend. It is THE FUTURE. Unfortunately I can't tell my left from my right, but still...

― ailsa, Tuesday, 17 August 2010 12:29 (2 years ago) Permalink

I walked onto some kind of crazy futuristic Victoria Line train the other day. The upholstery was electric blue.

― rhythm fixated member (chap), Tuesday, 17 August 2010 21:39 (2 years ago) Permalink

On the TfL homepage, for some strange reason:

― James Mitchell, Monday, 23 August 2010 15:19 (2 years ago) Permalink

2 weeks pass...

3 hours 40 mins to get into work today, a new record

― a fucking stove just fell on my foot. (Colonel Poo), Tuesday, 7 September 2010 11:14 (2 years ago) Permalink

Walked to work. 45 mins. Had a race with the 271 bus on the way, beat the fucker by miles.

― Tom A. (Tom B.) (Tom C.) (Tom D.), Tuesday, 7 September 2010 11:35 (2 years ago) Permalink

All the 38s started kicking everyone off at Angel "because the bus is running late - it's OK there are 3 more along in a minute" which are all full and don't stop, and now there are 4 bus loads of people waiting to get on one. WTF TFL.

Then it turned out the Victoria line had started running again so got a bus to Kings Cross and managed to get in, but really I should've just stayed in bed til 10am, I'd have got to work at the same time.

― a fucking stove just fell on my foot. (Colonel Poo), Tuesday, 7 September 2010 11:39 (2 years ago) Permalink

I saw the (still) traffic on the road outside my flat, and decided to walk to work instead (I've been doing this occasionally over the last few weeks anyway).

What amused me was the bunch of people waiting at the stop at the top of Rosebery avenue waiting for the 19/38, and then walking past all the 19&38 buses turning around a couple of minutes down the road. I wonder how long those people waited to get on a bus (when they would have a seat just by walking to the next stop).

Oh and seeing business men at the back of the Thames Clippers taking photos on their phones of the view along the river on their way to work.

― jellybean (back again) (Jill), Tuesday, 7 September 2010 11:59 (2 years ago) Permalink

Er, that's where I got kicked off the 38, you know when buses turn around they are going in the opposite direction?

― a fucking stove just fell on my foot. (Colonel Poo), Tuesday, 7 September 2010 12:02 (2 years ago) Permalink

Specific examples of ticket office reductions in opening hours here.

(ie what they're striking about, amongst other things).

I tend to just go through the open gates if I can't get a ticket and there's no one around and leave my 'honest face' (evasive and full of shifty cunning) to do the talking at the other end, but I guess there are those who don't have my brazen chutzpah, and will decide not to travel (tourists? OAPs?)

― GamalielRatsey, Tuesday, 7 September 2010 13:25 (2 years ago) Permalink

OAPs travel for free anyway, innit?

― James Mitchell, Tuesday, 7 September 2010 15:41 (2 years ago) Permalink

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11336395

seats look uncomfortable and i don't like the woodchip colourscheme.

― koogs, Friday, 17 September 2010 08:38 (2 years ago) Permalink

OAPs travel for free anyway, innit?

Pope should be OK today then

― Tom A. (Tom B.) (Tom C.) (Tom D.), Friday, 17 September 2010 08:44 (2 years ago) Permalink

confused about how the hop-on-hop-off thing works if the doors will be closed..

― progressive cuts (Tracer Hand), Friday, 17 September 2010 10:35 (2 years ago) Permalink

and what the hell a "community police officer" has to do with it

― progressive cuts (Tracer Hand), Friday, 17 September 2010 10:35 (2 years ago) Permalink

if there is a community support officer on the bus, doing the job of a bus conductor for free, then the doors will be open

if there is not, the doors will be closed

― camphor jars (c sharp major), Friday, 17 September 2010 10:37 (2 years ago) Permalink

so the doors will be closed.

― progressive cuts (Tracer Hand), Friday, 17 September 2010 10:42 (2 years ago) Permalink

Open back on the old Routemasters was horrific in bad weather if you happened to be near the back of the bus.

― Matt DC, Friday, 17 September 2010 10:44 (2 years ago) Permalink

Traansport in London is ludicrously great 98.6% of the time, in my experience, and people who whinge should just appreciate how great they have it almost the entire year, probably

― Underground - Parking (2010) (sic), Friday, 17 September 2010 14:07 (2 years ago) Permalink

Compared to Sydney, you're right sic!

― rhythm fixated member (chap), Friday, 17 September 2010 14:09 (2 years ago) Permalink

I've become so used to never, ever waiting for a tube I can't imagine going back to New York where a 6-7 minute wait is standard. It would enrage me.

― progressive cuts (Tracer Hand), Friday, 17 September 2010 14:16 (2 years ago) Permalink

You've never waited that long for a Tube in London?!

― Matt DC, Friday, 17 September 2010 14:17 (2 years ago) Permalink

You clearly do not travel on the Victoria Line!

― Karen D. Tregaskin, Friday, 17 September 2010 14:20 (2 years ago) Permalink

Maybe late at night I've waited for 6 minutes?

I live on the Central Line. People who live on the Hammersmith and City Line deserve everything they get imo

― progressive cuts (Tracer Hand), Friday, 17 September 2010 14:24 (2 years ago) Permalink

Vicky Line is pretty regular in my experience, it's just a matter of being able to squeeze onto the fucking trains.

― rhythm fixated member (chap), Friday, 17 September 2010 14:25 (2 years ago) Permalink

Regular? You mean except for that thing it does *every day* where it just mysteriously stops working for 10 minutes at a time, often just during or just after rush hour, and not only do all the trains just *sit there* for that time, but it screws up the schedule so that there is "congestion in Brixton" for the next 4 hours and you have to sit in a tunnel outside Stockwell for ages waiting for a platform?

This has been happening at least two or three times a week for the past year.

― Karen D. Tregaskin, Friday, 17 September 2010 14:31 (2 years ago) Permalink

ime the northern line is the absolute worst for inexplicable 8-10 min waits, presumably because of the camden bottleneck (just DYNAMITE CAMDEN IN ITS ENTIRETY, so many problems solved)

― لوووووووووووووووووووول (lex pretend), Friday, 17 September 2010 14:32 (2 years ago) Permalink

tho the worst thing about the tube is how they STILL apparently don't expect people to travel around at the weekend - weekend works have been fucking up the network for as long as i've lived in london, are the much-vaunted "improvements" ever going to actually materialise?

― لوووووووووووووووووووول (lex pretend), Friday, 17 September 2010 14:34 (2 years ago) Permalink

I just wonder whether the Victoria line's recent upgrade to get trains running far more frequently has actually made the delays much worse. If a train gets stuck (as happened the other day) you've got that many more trains stuck in the tunnels.

xpost Christ yes, northern line hell, bomb camden, absolutely.

― the too encumbered madman (GamalielRatsey), Friday, 17 September 2010 14:34 (2 years ago) Permalink

camden bottleneck is a bottleneck only because it looks like a bottleneck on the map.

― HOOS' THE BOSS (ken c), Friday, 17 September 2010 14:35 (2 years ago) Permalink

but lol @ tracer trolling

― HOOS' THE BOSS (ken c), Friday, 17 September 2010 14:38 (2 years ago) Permalink

Used the overground from Stratford the other day, that's a lovely little line

― Tom A. (Tom B.) (Tom C.) (Tom D.), Friday, 17 September 2010 14:39 (2 years ago) Permalink

i only use the tube maybe twice a week these days and most times on the vicky line i mean when it is running perfectly it's great but when something happens and you're stuck between finsbury park and seven sisters for 20 minutes when you're already late it's a little ironic don't you think.

― HOOS' THE BOSS (ken c), Friday, 17 September 2010 14:40 (2 years ago) Permalink

and something happens maybe one time in five in my experience.

― HOOS' THE BOSS (ken c), Friday, 17 September 2010 14:41 (2 years ago) Permalink

also weekend service is super fun. it's like an orienteering trip every time

― HOOS' THE BOSS (ken c), Friday, 17 September 2010 14:42 (2 years ago) Permalink

I live on the Northern Line so I'm pretty much used to it. Worst is when you have like three Bank trains in a row and you need to go to Charing X.

― rhythm fixated member (chap), Friday, 17 September 2010 14:43 (2 years ago) Permalink

I use the Victoria line 5 days a week, 10 journeys total - which means I get stuck at least twice a week.

That's when they haven't closed Oxford St Station due to "overcrowding" which happens at least once a week for me.

― Karen D. Tregaskin, Friday, 17 September 2010 14:44 (2 years ago) Permalink

i've lived on the northern line all my life and sometimes i feel personally hurt when people bitch about it. it is not really that bad! the inexplicable 8-10 minute waits happen way less often these days!

3 bank trains when you want a charing x and vice versa is the story of my life though.

― camphor jars (c sharp major), Friday, 17 September 2010 14:48 (2 years ago) Permalink

also weekend service is super fun. it's like an orienteering trip every time
― HOOS' THE BOSS (ken c), Friday, September 17, 2010 2:42 PM (9 minutes ago)

― camphor jars (c sharp major), Friday, 17 September 2010 14:52 (2 years ago) Permalink

I don't use the tube anymore but I had to the other day, had horrible flashbacks of when I had to change at Holborn for the Central Line every workday morning

― Tom A. (Tom B.) (Tom C.) (Tom D.), Friday, 17 September 2010 14:56 (2 years ago) Permalink

Ever tried to get from Dalston to Tufnell Park when the overland is down? You either need a master's degree in City Navigation, or to wait for the possibly fiction rail replacement bus. The other weekend I ended up walking the whole way.

― rhythm fixated member (chap), Friday, 17 September 2010 14:58 (2 years ago) Permalink

Holborn interchange from Piccadilly to the Central line (or vice versa?) is a killer. there's the bit where you go down steps, then up AGAIN before going back down to the platform. you should never ever ever have to go back up steps at any point. ever.

― (+) (+ +), Friday, 17 September 2010 15:00 (2 years ago) Permalink

I used to live in Tufnell Park, so yes I am familiar with that journey. It's not that far to walk, really. (xp)

― Tom A. (Tom B.) (Tom C.) (Tom D.), Friday, 17 September 2010 15:02 (2 years ago) Permalink

Anyone who travels across London at the weekend without actually planning their journey properly is a fool. This also applies to people who go into South London without checking overground train times and then moan about having to wait for 20mins.

― Matt DC, Friday, 17 September 2010 15:02 (2 years ago) Permalink

there's the bit where you go down steps, then up AGAIN before going back down to the platform

the horror! the horror!

― ledge, Friday, 17 September 2010 15:03 (2 years ago) Permalink

A few months ago I made the mistake of changing to the Central line from the District line at Bank/Monument. Crazy.

― mmmm, Friday, 17 September 2010 15:04 (2 years ago) Permalink

Anyone who travels across London at the weekend without actually planning their journey properly is a fool.

Sometimes you don't wake up where you were planning to though.

― rhythm fixated member (chap), Friday, 17 September 2010 15:04 (2 years ago) Permalink

Then you should be happy!

― Matt DC, Friday, 17 September 2010 15:05 (2 years ago) Permalink

I think that Lex is actually OTM and planning a trip across town at the weekend should not *have* to require the planning structure of launching the D-Day Offensive.

― Karen D. Tregaskin, Friday, 17 September 2010 15:05 (2 years ago) Permalink

Anyone who travels across London at the weekend without actually planning their journey properly is a fool.

this is true, but a) sometimes this doesn't help anyway, b) i don't really feel as though this is a remotely ideal state of affairs, c) SOMETIMES PEOPLE RUN LATE (and yeah, what chap said re: unexpected wakenings)

This also applies to people who go into South London without checking overground train times and then moan about having to wait for 20mins.

gonna have to do this tonight :/

― لوووووووووووووووووووول (lex pretend), Friday, 17 September 2010 15:06 (2 years ago) Permalink

Getting to Peckham from North London isn't even difficult!

― Matt DC, Friday, 17 September 2010 15:08 (2 years ago) Permalink

it may not be difficult but it is lonnnnnng. also, london bridge is some kind of exclave of hell.

dalston to tufnell park = i end up walking it about half the time, esp if it's stupid o'clock at night and i'm going to have to walk from the holloway road at the end anyway.

― camphor jars (c sharp major), Friday, 17 September 2010 15:09 (2 years ago) Permalink

^^ reasons why i am glad that most of my friends have been priced out of living in dalston these days

― camphor jars (c sharp major), Friday, 17 September 2010 15:10 (2 years ago) Permalink

Dunno, London's a big place, are 1hr journeys across it really that much of an arse? That's music time/reading time really.

Interchange at London Bridge is pretty horrible though. Not as horrible as King's Cross but pretty confusing nonetheless.

― Matt DC, Friday, 17 September 2010 15:12 (2 years ago) Permalink

Is anyone else pope-locked this weekend?

― Gravel Puzzleworth, Friday, 17 September 2010 15:13 (2 years ago) Permalink

Really, East to North London is appalling served, considering how many people need to do it, and how comparatively close they are! This is my major gripe about London transport. To visit my friends in Stoke Newington I have a choice of two relatively infrequent busses, one of which has a ten min walk my end, and the other a ten min walk their end. Walking the whole way only takes me about fifteen minutes longer.

― rhythm fixated member (chap), Friday, 17 September 2010 15:14 (2 years ago) Permalink

Dunno, where is he? (xpost)

― Mark G, Friday, 17 September 2010 15:15 (2 years ago) Permalink

Not as horrible as King's Cross but pretty confusing nonetheless.
― Matt DC, Friday, September 17, 2010 4:12 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark

don't even know what the FUCK they have done there, but it takes three minutes extra to exit, right? that isn't just me?

― sexy mfa (history mayne), Friday, 17 September 2010 15:16 (2 years ago) Permalink

i've also had lots of experience with the Tufnell Park to Dalston route. isn't there a single-decker bus that does the best part of the route? doesn't run late though, iirc. similarly, anything at the Luminaire was always a multi-stage epic, but the new overground really is brilliant. North London lines are radial, but it cuts right through 'em all. smashing looking trains too. and very spacious. i can imagine they'd be a good hang out for a gang w boombox (i.e. a mobile phone)

― (+) (+ +), Friday, 17 September 2010 15:16 (2 years ago) Permalink

Victoria iirc

― Gravel Puzzleworth, Friday, 17 September 2010 15:17 (2 years ago) Permalink

I never seem to be able to get out of King's Cross at the point I intend to. Last time I ended up somewhere round the back and weaving through a load of building site hoardings.

The Pope's around the Catholic cathedral in Victoria area I believe. Which is an area I usually avoid at the best of times but might be a problem for Gravel given that he lives near there.

Does the orange line go as far as Highbury yet?

― Matt DC, Friday, 17 September 2010 15:17 (2 years ago) Permalink

― rhythm fixated member (chap), Friday, 17 September 2010 14:58 (15 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

two short bus rides! (236 to finsbury park and then number 4)

― HOOS' THE BOSS (ken c), Friday, 17 September 2010 15:18 (2 years ago) Permalink

don't even know what the FUCK they have done there, but it takes three minutes extra to exit, right? that isn't just me?

they seem to have made an extra special effort to locate the mainline entrance to the underground, and the underground ticket office, and the platforms, as mutually far from one another as possible.

― ledge, Friday, 17 September 2010 15:18 (2 years ago) Permalink

first time i walked through the new King's Cross, i thought it was awesome. i was stoned though. hate it now.

― (+) (+ +), Friday, 17 September 2010 15:19 (2 years ago) Permalink

To visit my friends in Stoke Newington I have a choice of two relatively infrequent busses, one of which has a ten min walk my end, and the other a ten min walk their end. Walking the whole way only takes me about fifteen minutes longer.

I often go over to Stokey and, having timed it, it's quicker to walk my particular journey (wouldn't be if it wasn't for the Emirates, so thank you Gooners)

― Tom A. (Tom B.) (Tom C.) (Tom D.), Friday, 17 September 2010 15:19 (2 years ago) Permalink

isn't there a single-decker bus that does the best part of the route?

not entirely sure the 393 actually exists tbh. i mean, i must have taken it at some point, but still.

the kings x rebuild makes me so angry! it is just so BORING inside, why can't it be like the jubilee extension.

― camphor jars (c sharp major), Friday, 17 September 2010 15:19 (2 years ago) Permalink

going to the Victoria line is highest not-recommendation

― (+) (+ +), Friday, 17 September 2010 15:20 (2 years ago) Permalink

I <3 393

― Tom A. (Tom B.) (Tom C.) (Tom D.), Friday, 17 September 2010 15:20 (2 years ago) Permalink

Oh shit, I was thinking of going to the protest the pope thing at Hyde Park Corner but I didn't even think what a mess transport would be on account of his popiness. Right, in that case, I'm going no further than the Elephant this weekend. (Thank god Rephlex understand the utility of doing things around the Elephant.)

I have no idea how to negotiate Kings Cross since they moved the Thameslink, to be honest. I never know where I am any more.

― Karen D. Tregaskin, Friday, 17 September 2010 15:20 (2 years ago) Permalink

Oh I get the 393 all the time. Irritating bus, the closest it gets to Dalston is Church St. Also stops at midnight.

― rhythm fixated member (chap), Friday, 17 September 2010 15:21 (2 years ago) Permalink

Really, East to North London is appalling served, considering how many people need to do it

Yeah it's very strange. Hackney to King's Cross = 25 minutes on a bike but approx 1hr 15mins by public transport (the no. 30 -- eeuurgggh, or, what, a bus to Mile End or Bethnal Green, Central Line to Holborn, Picadilly Line to King's X? Madness).

― progressive cuts (Tracer Hand), Friday, 17 September 2010 15:21 (2 years ago) Permalink

I like the 393, it has a weird route

― Tom A. (Tom B.) (Tom C.) (Tom D.), Friday, 17 September 2010 15:21 (2 years ago) Permalink

At least the King's Cross rebuild is making the station concourse bigger, it's always been way way too small for all the people who want to use it, given it's the gateway to most of the North of England.

― Matt DC, Friday, 17 September 2010 15:22 (2 years ago) Permalink

they seem to have made an extra special effort to locate the mainline entrance to the underground, and the underground ticket office, and the platforms, as mutually far from one another as possible.
― ledge, Friday, September 17, 2010 4:18 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark

with the new n. line exit, you have an existential choice, LEFT to platforms 9-11, RIGHT (for aaaaages) for 0-8.

do they have a board saying which one to take? do they fuck.

― sexy mfa (history mayne), Friday, 17 September 2010 15:22 (2 years ago) Permalink

The 4, now there is an irritating bus

― Tom A. (Tom B.) (Tom C.) (Tom D.), Friday, 17 September 2010 15:22 (2 years ago) Permalink

The 4, now there is an irritating bus

― Tom A. (Tom B.) (Tom C.) (Tom D.), Friday, September 17, 2010 3:22 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark

― rhythm fixated member (chap), Friday, 17 September 2010 15:24 (2 years ago) Permalink

At least three ALWAYS pass in the opposite direction when you are waiting for yours.

― rhythm fixated member (chap), Friday, 17 September 2010 15:25 (2 years ago) Permalink

kings x constantly changing the platform the cambridge train goes from is a whole other kettle of dicks though

xps

i love the 4, it is so difficult, i am sure it has an artistic soul.

― camphor jars (c sharp major), Friday, 17 September 2010 15:25 (2 years ago) Permalink

No way is it worse than the 30, which is the WORST BUS EVER

― progressive cuts (Tracer Hand), Friday, 17 September 2010 15:25 (2 years ago) Permalink

kings x constantly changing the platform the cambridge train goes from is a whole other kettle of dicks though

fuckin a

― sexy mfa (history mayne), Friday, 17 September 2010 15:26 (2 years ago) Permalink

The 4, now there is an irritating bus

― Tom A. (Tom B.) (Tom C.) (Tom D.), Friday, September 17, 2010 3:22 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark

― rhythm fixated member (chap), Friday, September 17, 2010 3:24 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark

― (+) (+ +), Friday, 17 September 2010 15:27 (2 years ago) Permalink

i love the 4, it is so difficult, i am sure it has an artistic soul.

― camphor jars (c sharp major), Friday, September 17, 2010 3:25 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark

Haha. Also many of them are invisible. Good bus once you're on it.

― rhythm fixated member (chap), Friday, 17 September 2010 15:27 (2 years ago) Permalink

I'm going to Stokey tonight as it happens. 4 or 393?

― rhythm fixated member (chap), Friday, 17 September 2010 15:28 (2 years ago) Permalink

walk it! it's a gorgeous day.

― camphor jars (c sharp major), Friday, 17 September 2010 15:29 (2 years ago) Permalink

my current gripe right now is with Farringdon station. it's currently a clusterfuck of temporary staircases and a special side exit that opens sporadically. if i'm late for work, i miss the side entrance opening time and have to go DOWN SOME STAIRS and BACK UP AGAIN.

i live next to St Pancras though so I should be walking, really.

― (+) (+ +), Friday, 17 September 2010 15:29 (2 years ago) Permalink

Yeah it's very strange. Hackney to King's Cross = 25 minutes on a bike but approx 1hr 15mins by public transport (the no. 30 -- eeuurgggh, or, what, a bus to Mile End or Bethnal Green, Central Line to Holborn, Picadilly Line to King's X? Madness).

is it not quicker to get 30 to Highbury & islington and then get the v. line?

― HOOS' THE BOSS (ken c), Friday, 17 September 2010 15:30 (2 years ago) Permalink

oh wait i see what you're saying now.

― HOOS' THE BOSS (ken c), Friday, 17 September 2010 15:30 (2 years ago) Permalink

once made it from essex road to waterloo on a 341 at night in 12 minutes. probably my finest bus experience ever.

― ledge, Friday, 17 September 2010 15:32 (2 years ago) Permalink

the 30 doesn't belong in the same sentence as the word "quicker" unless it's immediately followed by "doesn't belong in the same sentence as the word 'quicker'"

but you're right, 30 --> vicky line probably more sensible. I'm guessing it would still take about an hour though.

― progressive cuts (Tracer Hand), Friday, 17 September 2010 15:32 (2 years ago) Permalink

i thought the number 4 is handy actually as long as you're not actually riding it the whole way.

i think if you rely on buses to get around (esp if you don't live at a major bus hub location) you kind of need to know how to hop buses?

― HOOS' THE BOSS (ken c), Friday, 17 September 2010 15:33 (2 years ago) Permalink

Fuck a hop, the bus has to take me right to where I'm going or I'm stopping at home

― Tom A. (Tom B.) (Tom C.) (Tom D.), Friday, 17 September 2010 15:40 (2 years ago) Permalink

ooh:

Five held over Pope terror alert
Counter-terrorism police arrest five men in London in relation to a potential threat linked to the Pope's visit.

― Mark G, Friday, 17 September 2010 15:42 (2 years ago) Permalink

We've covered that here

― Tom A. (Tom B.) (Tom C.) (Tom D.), Friday, 17 September 2010 15:43 (2 years ago) Permalink

> People who live on the Hammersmith and City Line deserve everything they get imo

that's fighting talk

a lot of H&C is also covered by Circle line these days. which they promised us would mean more frequent trains. but which i'm sure will eventually be scaled back and end up meaning fuller trains.

> I live on the Central Line.

hey, so do i. you are forgiven.

re: weekend plans and planning. Goldhawk Road tube station always has the map showing closed lines so far BEHIND the ticket barrier that you can't read it until you've gone through. by which time it's too late to make the decision to walk an extra 5 minutes to SB central line station.

― koogs, Friday, 17 September 2010 16:16 (2 years ago) Permalink

The mess up during two days of Pope does not bode well for one month of Olympics in two years' time.

― James Mitchell, Friday, 17 September 2010 16:24 (2 years ago) Permalink

apart from road closures near Hyde park and the usual stuff on the underground what are the disruptions? I guess the tube closures could be better planned, so at least the tube is the alternative to bus travel.

― jellybean (back again) (Jill), Friday, 17 September 2010 16:55 (2 years ago) Permalink

1 month passes...

Here's your list of fare increases for January 2011. Nice to see PAYG Oyster bus fares increasing by more than Tube prices again.

― James Mitchell, Thursday, 4 November 2010 14:48 (2 years ago) Permalink

2 weeks pass...

Advice needed:

1) Am I right in thinking that you can use pay-as-you-go Oyster cards on the 'overground' train line at all stations from Gospel Oak to Barking?

2) If a chap were to leave Upton Park at about 10pm after a football match and walked north for 20-30 minutes until he got to Wansted Park station, would he have a reasonable chance of catching the next train to Walthamstow Queens Road or would there be too many people with the same idea? Would a chap be better advised heading north-east to Woodgrange Park and getting onto the train one stop earlier?

― Porpoises Rescue Dick Van Dyke (Nasty, Brutish & Short), Wednesday, 24 November 2010 10:44 (2 years ago) Permalink

don't even know what the FUCK they have done [at King's Cross], but it takes three minutes extra to exit, right? that isn't just me?
Haha! No, I know that well. For a time, it seemed whichever exit I took at KC took me round the back somewhere between the Cambridge line platforms and the St Pancras Eurostar/Thameslink terminals. However, I finally found one Piccadilly Line exit that brings you out the 'old way' i.e. round the front somewhere. Now I just have to remember which one it was!

― Phil Will, Wednesday, 24 November 2010 12:09 (2 years ago) Permalink

NB&S, can't answer your second query but you're correct on the first one.

On the Piccadilly Line platforms you can see the old signs have been covered up quite amateurishly which will tell you which is the 'correct' exit to go to.

― Flint Baths (useless chamber), Wednesday, 24 November 2010 12:24 (2 years ago) Permalink

They seem to have fixed the Way Out signs on the Victoria line at Kings Cross now, at least Southbound. I used to keep ending up out the back of St Pancras as well, but now the Way Out signs actually say which Way Out they are, i.e. the one you want is Euston Road.

What they haven't fixed yet is that while I can now find the Euston Road way out, they've still got the entrance blocked off there, so when I come back to Kings Cross to go home I have to walk what seems like several miles to get to the Victoria line even though there is a perfectly good way in right by the Euston Road entrance.

― a fucking stove just fell on my foot. (Colonel Poo), Wednesday, 24 November 2010 14:48 (2 years ago) Permalink

i'm sure i saw a minotaur down there last time i tried to change lines at king's x

― lex lex lex lex lex on the track BOW (lex pretend), Wednesday, 24 November 2010 15:17 (2 years ago) Permalink

It's not worth it - just walk to Euston. It'll be quicker.

The best thing about Kings X is the London 2012 shop with all the cuddly Mandeville and Wenlocks - if only they had people dressed up in mascot costumes telling you WHICH FVCKING WAY IS WHICH. I was 20mins late for work on a tube strike day - not because the tube strike had delayed me that much, oh no, I was LOST in Kings X station itself as they had closed off the only exit that I knew.

I have learnt it a bit better now - there is one exit by the former Thameslink. This is the furthest away from anywhere. Take kendal mint cake. There are some secret stairs that lead you into a pub! These are my favourite. Then there is the entrance on Euston Road, which I call the 'balcony' entrance. This is the nastiest way in. Ch. There are probably more exits. There are Eurostar trains somewhere, surrounded by crying people who have bought their expired passports instead of their current ones. Idiots.

― superpitching, Wednesday, 24 November 2010 15:24 (2 years ago) Permalink

Interesting bit on how London 2012 is going to affect getting about.

― James Mitchell, Thursday, 25 November 2010 11:56 (2 years ago) Permalink

― James Mitchell, Monday, 29 November 2010 11:14 (2 years ago) Permalink

*weak laugh*

― progressive cuts (Tracer Hand), Monday, 29 November 2010 11:31 (2 years ago) Permalink

1 month passes...

so the cost of a bus journey in london is now ONE POUND SODDING THIRTY???????

i'm sure i remember when TUBE journeys cost less than that. i bet the buses are as grim as ever, too. at what point do these fare increases result in ACTUAL IMPROVEMENTS to this godforsaken transport network?

― lex diamonds (lex pretend), Friday, 7 January 2011 10:12 (2 years ago) Permalink

£2.20 if paying cash. even if you're just going one stop to get out of the rain.

― progressive cuts (Tracer Hand), Friday, 7 January 2011 10:34 (2 years ago) Permalink

travelcard for me (zones 1 to 4) is now over seven quid. in a couple of years it will prob be ten quid.

the diff in price between a bus journey with and without an oyster card is a joke. its like a fine for not topping up. so fucking lame. the way buses cost the same no matter how far you go is also fucking stupid.

― titchy (titchyschneiderMk2), Friday, 7 January 2011 11:16 (2 years ago) Permalink

every time i see the poster that goes 'the congestion charge zone is getting smaller!' i want to punch boris in the face

― cleo: dessins, cassettes (c sharp major), Friday, 7 January 2011 11:23 (2 years ago) Permalink

the diff in price between a bus journey with and without an oyster card is a joke. its like a fine for not topping up.

Or for being a tourist. The differential in tube prices is terrifying.

― ailsa, Friday, 7 January 2011 11:29 (2 years ago) Permalink

its like a fine for not topping up

get auto top up! why don't people get auto top up?

and tourists, can't you get oyster cards from dispensers now?

― nanoflymo (ledge), Friday, 7 January 2011 11:30 (2 years ago) Permalink

Zone 1-4 travelcard at PEAK time is already around a tenner isn't it?

(Actually I am so thankful for the wonderful London Overground I almost *whisper* do not mind the increase...)

― superpitching, Friday, 7 January 2011 11:31 (2 years ago) Permalink

why should anyone be penalised for not buying a bloody oyster though? its a pisstake. travelling in london is just too prohibitive. just buying a bloody oyster card costs, what is it now, a fiver? i know they have to charge otherwise people wont take care of them, but ffs. saying all that, this is good for my exercise. i prefer walking to bussing it. though yesterday this was a mistake and i arrived home totally soaked. i saved money though.

― titchy (titchyschneiderMk2), Friday, 7 January 2011 11:33 (2 years ago) Permalink

Think we were £2 or £3 for buying a visitor oyster card, but not everyone KNOWS about it when you're just nipping down for the day or whatever.

― ailsa, Friday, 7 January 2011 12:00 (2 years ago) Permalink

(I still think transport in London is basically great, btw, because compared to transport in places in the UK that aren't London, it is)

― ailsa, Friday, 7 January 2011 12:03 (2 years ago) Permalink

I didn't realise the oyster top-up online took a day to process so ended up paying at the station as well. now I have to remember to activate it from Chancery Lane the next time I'm in town. grr.

Tube is great though, excepting the craziness of the central line at rush-hour

― sometimes all it takes is a healthy dose of continental indiepop (tomofthenest), Friday, 7 January 2011 12:13 (2 years ago) Permalink

also, since I've been working in Lahndan 2 days a week I've been having vivid dreams that there's an underground network in Hull. I could easily draw the map and the trains and everything.

― sometimes all it takes is a healthy dose of continental indiepop (tomofthenest), Friday, 7 January 2011 12:15 (2 years ago) Permalink

£2.20 if paying cash.

Or £3 if the driver says "I don't have any change, you know", like what happened to me at 6 o'clock on Wednesday morning.

― James Mitchell, Friday, 7 January 2011 12:15 (2 years ago) Permalink

Anyone used the bikes since they were opened up to general access?

― Herr Kapitan Pugvosh (GamalielRatsey), Friday, 7 January 2011 12:24 (2 years ago) Permalink

nah, looks terrifying

― sometimes all it takes is a healthy dose of continental indiepop (tomofthenest), Friday, 7 January 2011 12:32 (2 years ago) Permalink

how general is the access?

― a le tiss faux-cunt (Upt0eleven), Friday, 7 January 2011 12:33 (2 years ago) Permalink

Think you have to pay with a Barclaycard.

― James Mitchell, Friday, 7 January 2011 12:36 (2 years ago) Permalink

At least that's what all the signs are for iirc.

― James Mitchell, Friday, 7 January 2011 12:36 (2 years ago) Permalink

> just buying a bloody oyster card costs, what is it now, a fiver?

yes, a fiver. but it's refundable when you return the card.

― koogs, Friday, 7 January 2011 12:45 (2 years ago) Permalink

how general is the access?

Anyone with a debit/credit card afaik.

― Herr Kapitan Pugvosh (GamalielRatsey), Friday, 7 January 2011 12:50 (2 years ago) Permalink

No helmets though.

― progressive cuts (Tracer Hand), Friday, 7 January 2011 12:51 (2 years ago) Permalink

bikes are tank-like, was exhausted just cycling across waterloo bridge and up to longacre. still, i like them v much, appreciate the ability to easily and quickly get to places not well served by bus or tube, when i can't be arsed to lug my own bike around.

― nanoflymo (ledge), Friday, 7 January 2011 12:54 (2 years ago) Permalink

brakes are pretty crap but you're not likely to get up to enough speed where that will be a problem.

― nanoflymo (ledge), Friday, 7 January 2011 12:55 (2 years ago) Permalink

I only go from Kx to Holburn, and there's no way I'm going to cycle that journey. just out of interest, how much do they cost?

― sometimes all it takes is a healthy dose of continental indiepop (tomofthenest), Friday, 7 January 2011 13:01 (2 years ago) Permalink

I think the access fee for 24hrs is £1 and journeys of up to 30 mins are free (up to an hour £1 etc). If you join the scheme you can get savings on the access fee, but the duration of journey fees are the same.

― Herr Kapitan Pugvosh (GamalielRatsey), Friday, 7 January 2011 13:10 (2 years ago) Permalink

Not being able to use prepay on the bikes is the wtf point for me.

― superpitching, Friday, 7 January 2011 14:16 (2 years ago) Permalink

yeah i dont know why you cant use oyster cards for them. would make it much easier.

― titchy (titchyschneiderMk2), Friday, 7 January 2011 15:58 (2 years ago) Permalink

because they have to be able to but a 300 quid hold on your card in case you nick one.

― American Fear of Pranksterism (Ed), Friday, 7 January 2011 15:59 (2 years ago) Permalink

I haven't had a season ticket on my Oyster Card for donkeys' years (because I don't work in central London and I usually walk to work) so I just use the Top Up version. If I go for the auto-top up option, will it just top up whenever I need it to wherever I go? Or will it be like in the olden days when I bought a monthly ticket online and had to specify which station I was going to go to and get there within 3-4 days? Because the latter isn't very useful to me as I travel sporadically and usually don't know 24 hours in advance a)if I'm going to use the tube and b)which station I'm going to start my journey from.

― Sepp Blatter quipped (Nasty, Brutish & Short), Friday, 7 January 2011 17:19 (2 years ago) Permalink

When you first set it up you have to specify a station (pretty sure it includes NR stations), but after that it works anywhere, including buses.
Really don't get why people who regularly use PAYG don't have auto top-up set up.

― Flint Baths (useless chamber), Friday, 7 January 2011 17:47 (2 years ago) Permalink

without it, i like to pretend i'm keeping tabs on what i'm spending

also not sure how to set it up

― lex diamonds (lex pretend), Friday, 7 January 2011 17:49 (2 years ago) Permalink

Probably in the minority here but I also don't get people who get on buses when it's raining and immediately pounce on any open window. It's letting air in, not water, and now you you can't see anything and the bus smells of wet dogs.

― Flint Baths (useless chamber), Friday, 7 January 2011 17:50 (2 years ago) Permalink

if someone can get to a window that soon after boarding a bus, the bus is empty enough that i'll be comfortable whatever

― lex diamonds (lex pretend), Friday, 7 January 2011 17:53 (2 years ago) Permalink

Yeah, I get the not wanting money going on your Oystercard without you doing anything about it aspect, but none of the people i'm ever with don't change there mind about travelling, just go and queue or complain about the cash fare again.
uh, x-posts.

― Flint Baths (useless chamber), Friday, 7 January 2011 17:57 (2 years ago) Permalink

I'm happy for it to top up my card automatically as long as it tops up at whichever station I decide to go to (not just one specific pre-arranged station) and does this whenever I choose to travel again (which might be as much as 2 months after my Oyster has gone below the level the triggers a top up), rather than requiring me to get to a station within specified time period.

It sounds like the first part is true (apart from the first time you do it), still don't know about the second part.

― Sepp Blatter quipped (Nasty, Brutish & Short), Friday, 7 January 2011 18:03 (2 years ago) Permalink

Public transit in the western world is shit.

― /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\||||||( *__* )||||||/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ (res), Friday, 7 January 2011 18:45 (2 years ago) Permalink

I also don't get people who get on buses when it's raining and immediately pounce on any open window. It's letting air in, not water, and now you you can't see anything and the bus smells of wet dogs.

but rain can often come in thru the window and the person a row or two behind might feel that. is a design flaw along with people not really getting the air from the window they're sitting under (but opened) whereas someone a few rows back will.

― idgi fridays (blueski), Friday, 7 January 2011 19:55 (2 years ago) Permalink

I'm happy for it to top up my card automatically as long as it tops up at whichever station I decide to go to (not just one specific pre-arranged station) and does this whenever I choose to travel again

yes and yes.

― nanoflymo (ledge), Saturday, 8 January 2011 14:39 (2 years ago) Permalink

it just does it whenever you touch in (or out maybe) and are below the limit, you don't need to go to a ticket machine or anything.

― nanoflymo (ledge), Saturday, 8 January 2011 14:47 (2 years ago) Permalink

I just had a go on one of the bikes. It was fine. I was wobbly and I went a lot more slowly than I'm used to, which made interactions with traffic a little alarming at times - found it a little difficult to get purchase away from junctions, and the lowest gear is, understandably of course, woah spinny, but yes, good idea and cheap - I've got 24hrs use for £1 and will only pay on journeys above half an hour, and only £1 on journeys above that.

― Herr Kapitan Pugvosh (GamalielRatsey), Saturday, 8 January 2011 14:49 (2 years ago) Permalink

Couldn't get it to work at either Warwick Avenue or Great Marlborough Street docks this morning. Still a fan in principle though, just seems not to like me.

― a le tiss faux-cunt (Upt0eleven), Saturday, 8 January 2011 14:54 (2 years ago) Permalink

with a key, or credit card? i've been through three keys and managed one successful journey, so yeah that's pretty shit. has worked ok with cards though - sometimes need to have a couple of goes with the code.

― nanoflymo (ledge), Saturday, 8 January 2011 15:02 (2 years ago) Permalink

Just used my debit card. Didn't have any difficulties apart from a moment's panic when I didn't think I had the strenght to pull the bike out with my pipecleaner arms.

― Herr Kapitan Pugvosh (GamalielRatsey), Saturday, 8 January 2011 15:09 (2 years ago) Permalink

sometimes need to have a couple of goes with the code

Yep, same here in fact.

― Herr Kapitan Pugvosh (GamalielRatsey), Saturday, 8 January 2011 15:10 (2 years ago) Permalink

214, Thanks for everything! Julie Newmar

― ship_rex (+ +), Friday, 21 January 2011 11:08 (2 years ago) Permalink

2 months pass...

― James Mitchell, Tuesday, 29 March 2011 13:28 (2 years ago) Permalink

good god tfl pull yourselves together, this is an embarrassment

― lex pretend, Tuesday, 29 March 2011 13:31 (2 years ago) Permalink

1 month passes...

RMT Tube drivers are planning to walk out every day from Monday May 16 to Friday May 20.

― James Mitchell, Wednesday, 4 May 2011 08:12 (2 years ago) Permalink

Oh man. It would be great if someone could explain if this is justified. I'm totally for worker's rights and stuff but this action seems pretty excessive.

― mmmm, Wednesday, 4 May 2011 09:02 (2 years ago) Permalink

work from home! yay!

― 40% chill and 100% negative (Tracer Hand), Wednesday, 4 May 2011 09:06 (2 years ago) Permalink

RMT claims Lynch and Thomas were sacked because of their trade union activities, although this has been denied by Transport for London.

"It is absolute nonsense to suggest that these individuals were dismissed unfairly due to their union activities and it is disgraceful that the RMT leadership has chosen to ballot for strike action when both cases are still going through the employment tribunal process," said TfL

pretty much with tfl here.

― standing on the shoulders of pissants (ledge), Wednesday, 4 May 2011 09:09 (2 years ago) Permalink

So one guy got agro and another breached safety rules. I can't find any details on the seriousness of either case and both sides seem to be debating what exactly happened. RMT are saying their trade union involvement is there only 'crime'. It seems both cases are under review and might get overturned? Anyway, why not strike say RMT. Great.

― mmmm, Wednesday, 4 May 2011 09:26 (2 years ago) Permalink

idk, very recently a friend's dad in a different industry got pulled up for 'disciplinary' reasons and it became very apparent very quickly that this was actually about his trade union rep work, and was the first step in an attempt at constructive dismissal. companies do target people for their trade union involvement, often in pretty flagrant ways. so... i don't know.

― górecki's zygotic mynci (c sharp major), Wednesday, 4 May 2011 09:40 (2 years ago) Permalink

Yeah, I can see that. I've worked places where I've been warned of 'troublemakers'. It would be good to know details of what they have been accused of.

― mmmm, Wednesday, 4 May 2011 09:46 (2 years ago) Permalink

the guy who "breached safety rules" has already won an interim order at employment tribunal, which means "the Employment Tribunal believes it is likely at your full hearing that your complaint will be successful" but it's always inspiring to see people side with bosses to avoid minor inconvenience.

― joe, Wednesday, 4 May 2011 09:49 (2 years ago) Permalink

the employment tribunal is the right place to sort this out, not the picket line.

― standing on the shoulders of pissants (ledge), Wednesday, 4 May 2011 09:50 (2 years ago) Permalink

if people are being victimised for their union activities, which tfl says is "absolute nonsense" but the tribunal has ruled is "likely" then yeah, it's a matter for industrial action.

― joe, Wednesday, 4 May 2011 09:52 (2 years ago) Permalink

idk, maybe wait until the tribunal has fully run its course? and then see what redress (if any) tfl are made to take? i really don't see what striking is meant to achieve, at this point.

― standing on the shoulders of pissants (ledge), Wednesday, 4 May 2011 09:56 (2 years ago) Permalink

well it's making us alert to this issue and we're talking about it.

― 40% chill and 100% negative (Tracer Hand), Wednesday, 4 May 2011 09:57 (2 years ago) Permalink

if everything just "ran its course" no one would have any idea that TfL might be involved in these particular anti-union shenanigans, people wouldn't be reminding each other that anti-union shenanigans can get dressed up as disciplinary actions for other "offenses" etc

― 40% chill and 100% negative (Tracer Hand), Wednesday, 4 May 2011 09:58 (2 years ago) Permalink

because tribunals can take months, during which time the union's activities are disrupted by taking their representatives out of circulation. at the end, tfl would probably just have to pay compensation, which it may consider money well spent to fuck over the RMT but i'm not particularly keen on it as a use of public money.

― joe, Wednesday, 4 May 2011 09:59 (2 years ago) Permalink

i keep reading this as "Transport in London is.... THE shit" and i keep being like yes, it is!

― 40% chill and 100% negative (Tracer Hand), Wednesday, 4 May 2011 09:59 (2 years ago) Permalink

afaik industrial tribunals are basically for shit? You get to fight for months to get an amount of comp money that looks impressive, then vanishes after a few months, by which time you haven't found a new job because you've been successfully tarred as a "troublemaker". The chances of getting successfully reinstated after dismissal are pretty minute.

On the other hand this strike could personally inconvenience me so it's a fucking outrage

― MPx4A, Wednesday, 4 May 2011 13:13 (2 years ago) Permalink

2 months pass...

transport in london really is shit. first rush-hour commuting for 3 years today and...jesus what is WRONG with this thing? why can the tube never work properly? such a simple journey, on the way in i got within one stop in good time, and then i had to change line and somehow that last stop took me HALF AN HOUR thanks to a) one tube inexplicably not turning up b) another tube inexplicably resting at a platform for an aeon c) a third tube crawling at approximately 2mph for its entire journey.

on the way back, with the tube as sardine-like and overheating as you expect, we were held at hyde park corner for 20 minutes to "even out the service" or some bullshit.

i don't think this is really very acceptable!

― lex pretend, Monday, 25 July 2011 20:12 (1 year ago) Permalink

itt personal hard luck stories masquerading as symptoms of massive system failure

― ledge, Monday, 25 July 2011 20:43 (1 year ago) Permalink

what line was that? i get the central every day and i find it largely excellent. apart from werewolf-like transformation into a total bastard as soon as i set foot underground, which is the price we pay the tfl ferryman.

― LocalGarda, Monday, 25 July 2011 20:47 (1 year ago) Permalink

itt personal hard luck stories masquerading as symptoms of massive system failure

it's at least 75% of the time i ever try to travel outside of my postcode!

it was the piccadilly line. well the fuckery on the way back was, on the way in the fuckery was the circle line's fault.

― lex pretend, Monday, 25 July 2011 20:50 (1 year ago) Permalink

― ledge, Monday, 25 July 2011 20:56 (1 year ago) Permalink

i don't thin that image worked

like the tube!!

― lex pretend, Monday, 25 July 2011 20:58 (1 year ago) Permalink

we were held at hyde park corner for 20 minutes to "even out the service" or some bullshit.

That is the only way to avoid the "waiting for 30 minutes and then three turning up at once" problem. Annoying for those on the actual train, but the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. And it probably wasn't for 20 minutes.

― ledge, Monday, 25 July 2011 21:00 (1 year ago) Permalink

so much piccadilly line fuckery today

in the 10 tube journeys i took last week, when i was commuting, precisely THREE went smoothly. and one of those was because i left the office at 9pm. otherwise, delays and stoppages and random terminations and evacuations = par for the fucking course, not me being "unlucky" at all. don't want to hear a word in this piece of shit service's defence, it's useless and inadequate.

― lex pretend, Thursday, 4 August 2011 18:35 (1 year ago) Permalink

Last week the Victoria line was a total nightmare. I think I was on similar stats to you - Monday and Tuesday there were signal failures AND passenger alarms on every journey.

This week has been alright so far dammit now I've jinxed tomorrow.

― Operation Pooting (Colonel Poo), Thursday, 4 August 2011 19:57 (1 year ago) Permalink

Got the Victoria line down to Kings Cross last night heading for a pub on Pentonville Road - got on the last carriage perfectly lined up with the exit for Pentonville Rd, but when I got up there I found they'd closed the exit 20 minutes before. I then had to go on an odyssey to get out - a seemingly never-ending underground walk eventually surfacing somewhere between Kings Cross and St Pancras, then mysteriously weaving through various platforms, finally to the concourse and then to the street and back to the outside of my initial exit more than ten minutes later.

― My heart goes out to the people of platitudes (Nasty, Brutish & Short), Wednesday, 17 August 2011 09:32 (1 year ago) Permalink

Haha yes I know that well. Pentonville Rd exit shuts at 8pm - the solution is to walk all the way down the Victoria line platform to where the Euston Road exit is - of course they don't tell you that on the signs.

― The Eyeball Of Hull (Colonel Poo), Wednesday, 17 August 2011 09:41 (1 year ago) Permalink

2 weeks pass...

BUS TRACKER! it seems on the face of it to work. I've been waiting for this for so long.

http://m.countdown.tfl.gov.uk/

― Tim, Saturday, 3 September 2011 10:27 (1 year ago) Permalink

― conrad, Saturday, 3 September 2011 10:30 (1 year ago) Permalink

This is the best thing that's ever happened

― Prejudice Capsule Hamster (Nasty, Brutish & Short), Saturday, 3 September 2011 12:37 (1 year ago) Permalink

It won't give me any information on the 48 route for some reason. And it seems to struggle a bit when you're searching for a stop by name and there are multiple stops with that name. Or maybe it's me that struggles. But yes! Makes sliced bread look shit.

― Tim, Saturday, 3 September 2011 13:35 (1 year ago) Permalink

Just used this on my way back from the vet! 212 in 2 mins it said, which was close enough. This is great, although yeah it only seems to be for certain routes at the moment.

― The Eyeball Of Hull (Colonel Poo), Saturday, 3 September 2011 14:07 (1 year ago) Permalink

Pushchair tracker needed for the 29 route too

― /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\etc (Matt #2), Saturday, 3 September 2011 14:24 (1 year ago) Permalink

Anyone sampled the delights of the non-bendy 73 route today?

― Neil S, Saturday, 3 September 2011 15:41 (1 year ago) Permalink

It goes on Roman roads only?

― Chewshabadoo, Saturday, 3 September 2011 15:49 (1 year ago) Permalink

That's the 8 iirc.

― Skrillex Ferguson (useless chamber), Saturday, 3 September 2011 16:56 (1 year ago) Permalink

Anyone sampled the delights of the non-bendy 73 route today?

One crossed my path at Newington Green yesterday while I was riding the 141. I note the route has been shortened and the northern terminus is now Stoke Newington.

The big one, for me, will be the 29. I think that is due for conversion in November.

― dubmill, Sunday, 4 September 2011 10:23 (1 year ago) Permalink

Following my Kings X exits hell (see post two weeks ago) can Colonel Poo or anyone else advise me: if I head south to Kings Cross on the Victoria line and want to exit so that I can walk down Grays Inn Road, what's the best way to go once I get off the train?

― Prejudice Capsule Hamster (Nasty, Brutish & Short), Sunday, 4 September 2011 11:24 (1 year ago) Permalink

that's always seemed fairly easy to me - can't remember directions from platform, but make as if you're heading to the circle line platform, and then go out of that exit - go under the subway when you're out of the gates

― lex pretend, Sunday, 4 September 2011 11:26 (1 year ago) Permalink

Yeah, as lex said. Head towards the front of the train (going southbound), go up to the main ticket office, then go through the underpass before you get to the Circle&c platforms. I think that's quicker than leaving through the main station and having to cross Euston Road. Or weekdays before 8pm you can just go up the Pentonville Rd exit and walk around the Scala onto Grays Inn

― Skrillex Ferguson (useless chamber), Sunday, 4 September 2011 11:37 (1 year ago) Permalink

Thanks.

― Prejudice Capsule Hamster (Nasty, Brutish & Short), Sunday, 4 September 2011 11:41 (1 year ago) Permalink

Also:Bus tracker is amazing. Very quick and easy to navigate on an un-smartphone too.

― Skrillex Ferguson (useless chamber), Sunday, 4 September 2011 11:43 (1 year ago) Permalink

http://vimeo.com/28341276

― James Mitchell, Thursday, 8 September 2011 10:31 (1 year ago) Permalink

the new non-bendy 73s all seem to be hybrids - it freaks me out when the engine cuts out at every stop. i'm usually late and i need the psychological crutch of perceived forward motion that a ticking-over engine provides.

― jabba hands, Thursday, 8 September 2011 10:47 (1 year ago) Permalink

Yes - when the engine cuts at a stop I always assume either (a) we'll be stopped for ages because a passenger has incurred the wrath of the driver, or (b) we'll be stopped for ages due to driver changeover.

― Tim, Thursday, 8 September 2011 10:49 (1 year ago) Permalink

bus drivers in london are bastards.

― Upt0eleven, Thursday, 8 September 2011 10:59 (1 year ago) Permalink

given the shit they must have to put up with, they seem okay to me.

― Neil S, Thursday, 8 September 2011 13:26 (1 year ago) Permalink

i think they're ok too

― jabba hands, Thursday, 8 September 2011 14:47 (1 year ago) Permalink

tbh they are either really kind or completes sons of bitches ime. of course i've seen the shit some or these poor sods are subjected to, but many of them do themselves no favours whatsoever, either assuming an unruly passenger where no evidence of one exists, or just failing to communicate at all.

― Upt0eleven, Thursday, 8 September 2011 15:04 (1 year ago) Permalink

Bus once shot past my outstretched hand at a bus stop, as the driver looked nonchalantly at me. Next bus stopped and the driver told me to hop on and we'll catch the bastard up because 'he shouldn't have done that'. We did indeed catch up and I was able to both thank the second driver and give the first driver a piece of mind. To which he responded with the the sullen-faced rhetorical parry of 'Do you want to get on this bus or not?'

Also once got a lift to a company bus station (ie not a public one) to collect my wallet, by one of the nicest bus drivers I ever met (she was a regular on that route), who instructed me to hide at the back so no one could see me. Drivers gave me a lift back to town in their transit vehicle.

I'm with Neil S on this. Dreadful amount of shit they get, although some of them are right sods as well.

― Fizzles the Chimp (GamalielRatsey), Thursday, 8 September 2011 21:56 (1 year ago) Permalink

The detailed fares package shows that the price of a single bus journey using an Oyster smart card will rise to £1.40 from 2 January, compared with £1.30 now and 90p when Johnson came to power.
Underground fares using the Oyster card will go up by between 10p and 30p, depending on the travel zones passed through and time of day.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/sep/14/london-public-transport-fares-rise

― James Mitchell, Thursday, 15 September 2011 07:55 (1 year ago) Permalink

all imma say is that i've been commuting for a fortnight, for once, and i don't think i've had a single journey where i haven't thought "what is fucking WRONG with the tube" at least once.

this story makes me happy though. if i ever catch the night bus driver who blithely sailed past me & a few others at 6am last saturday morning i'll give him more than a piece of my mind. what a cunt.

― i asked for "HALF" a glass of wine, because i am TEMPERENT (lex pretend), Thursday, 15 September 2011 09:32 (1 year ago) Permalink

Compared to Glasgow, London's transport is a quasi-mystical wonderland of cheap, frequent services that go where you want, btw.

I will kill these disgusting savages standing on the left before long, mind.

― stet, Thursday, 15 September 2011 10:56 (1 year ago) Permalink

tourists, you mean, you want to kill the tourists

i cycle everywhere but when i had to get the tube/bus for a few months i think i had one or two problems/delays? you must be very unlucky lex to have 20 odd journeys where the tube let you down. and indeed, what a cunty bus driver, at 6am on a saturday morning, no less! i bet that shift is a joy!

― Crackle Box, Thursday, 15 September 2011 11:00 (1 year ago) Permalink

my least favourite thing bus drivers do is beep you to get you out of the way (!) especially when they're only going to go round you force you to slow down then stop right in front of you, eugh

last week a driver was being particularly twattish, beeped me, so i turned round to see if there was actually a reason i was being beeped, car pulled out from the left hand side of the road while i had momentarily turned round, bus driver hadn't seen car, i hadn't seen car, car stops in the middle of the bus lane, bus moves out into the car lane, i have to speed up to get ahead of bus to avoid nasty collision with the car in the bus lane, bus driver continues to beep! argh it was your fault you twat!

― Crackle Box, Thursday, 15 September 2011 11:09 (1 year ago) Permalink

oh cyclist btw

― Crackle Box, Thursday, 15 September 2011 11:09 (1 year ago) Permalink

It's not just tourists -- the commuters do an even more savage thing of walking on the left then *stopping* for the last few steps as it shallows out, holding up the entire escalator.

If just once they'd look back they'd see the stairs of rage glowering at them and surely never do it again.

― stet, Thursday, 15 September 2011 11:10 (1 year ago) Permalink

i don't think i've had a single journey where i haven't thought "what is fucking WRONG with the tube" at least once.

bring a book

― conrad, Thursday, 15 September 2011 11:10 (1 year ago) Permalink

ha, that would drive me crazy, speeding up the left hand side of the escalator is great fun, also races w friends or gf when there are two escalators available. angel is esp good for that iirc

― Crackle Box, Thursday, 15 September 2011 11:14 (1 year ago) Permalink

angel escalators are dope

Compared to Glasgow, London's transport is a quasi-mystical wonderland of cheap, frequent services that go where you want, btw.

don't try it stet! it just riles them up

― robocop last year was a 'shop (sic), Thursday, 15 September 2011 14:18 (1 year ago) Permalink

"I had to wait NINETEEN SECONDS for a train the other day, it normally comes in seventeen, what the ACTUAL FUCK DO THEY THINK THEY'RE PLAYING AT"

― robocop last year was a 'shop (sic), Thursday, 15 September 2011 14:19 (1 year ago) Permalink

Compared to Glasgow, London's transport is a quasi-mystical wonderland of cheap, frequent services that go where you want, btw.

Bus drivers are bigger wankers in Glasgow too, in my experience. London ones aren't that bad generally.

― Juice Should Be Sterliized (Tom D.), Thursday, 15 September 2011 14:21 (1 year ago) Permalink

depends massively on the route ime

― Upt0eleven, Thursday, 15 September 2011 14:26 (1 year ago) Permalink

2 weeks pass...

is there a journey planner that works better than the tfl one? it seems to enjoy adding 30 minutes and three legs to every actually-quite-simple journey.

― known for melding an outrageous stage presence with tenacious hooks (Merdeyeux), Friday, 30 September 2011 21:34 (1 year ago) Permalink

http://walkit.com/cities/london/

seriously - I walk everywhere now unless it's raining very heavily.

― Bob Six, Friday, 30 September 2011 21:50 (1 year ago) Permalink

google map the directions and choose public transport

xpost

― Crackle Box, Saturday, 1 October 2011 08:47 (1 year ago) Permalink

walking in london is awesome, especially if you head off down the little streets and away from the main roads - you stumble on so much awesomeness

― lex pretend, Saturday, 1 October 2011 09:12 (1 year ago) Permalink

In my nearly two weeks here I've never used transit (except to get here from Heathrow). The city is made for walking.

I think I'm gonna walk to the Freud Museum, and then maybe down to Regent's park. Can anyone recommend anything otherwise notable in that area?

― Hills Like White Broncos (EDB), Saturday, 1 October 2011 09:26 (1 year ago) Permalink

Keats' House at Hampstead Heath possibly worth a visit. London zoo, of course.

― good luck in your pyramid (Neil S), Saturday, 1 October 2011 09:29 (1 year ago) Permalink

camden arts centre's v close to the freud museum but annoyingly between-exhibitions.

there are iirc a couple of nice japanese and korean delis off the finchley road where you could pick up something to have for lunch later.

― civilisation and its discotheques (c sharp major), Saturday, 1 October 2011 10:00 (1 year ago) Permalink

Primrose Hill

― Mister Potato shares Manchester United’s commitment to (Nasty, Brutish & Short), Saturday, 1 October 2011 10:38 (1 year ago) Permalink

yeah before i came here i walked everywhere and i don't want to give that up, but sometimes the practicality of getting places from hackney weighs down. also i am useless with directions and maps and such, so until i get smartphone and so lose the possibility of getting irredeemably lost, walking can be a bit scary.

(the google maps directions do indeed look a lot better, thanks!)

― known for melding an outrageous stage presence with tenacious hooks (Merdeyeux), Saturday, 1 October 2011 18:16 (1 year ago) Permalink

i still habitually carry an a-z around with me, seven years after moving to london (and regularly use it) (can't get maps to work on smartphones)

― lex pretend, Saturday, 1 October 2011 18:25 (1 year ago) Permalink

The first week for me consisted mostly of just a desire for a smartphone, then I learned the joy of getting lost. Now my feet just hurt, so the walks from paddington to shoreditch and back are going to have to wait (actually, it wasn't too fun overshooting my destination by 25 minutes yesterday).

I ordered an Oyster pass, so once I realize the weather isn't supposed to be like it is now, and once the weight of grad school work condenses my schedule, I'll have to learn to work around tfl.

― Hills Like White Broncos (EDB), Saturday, 1 October 2011 19:12 (1 year ago) Permalink

Merdeyeux - re: TfL journey planner - have you played around with the options? The default setting is 'average' walk speed and a limit of 20 minutes walking - I always up this to half an hour and say that I walk quickly, otherwise it tends to make the journeys more complicated than they really need to be.

― Mister Potato shares Manchester United’s commitment to (Nasty, Brutish & Short), Saturday, 1 October 2011 19:19 (1 year ago) Permalink

fiddling does make it a bit better, but still not entirely - the big one that really made me notice its faults is that it refused to point out to me the very easy overground route from my house in hackney to harringay.

while i'm talking about london i need to express this: holy shit what a bunch of cunts the old blue last has for clientele.

― known for melding an outrageous stage presence with tenacious hooks (Merdeyeux), Saturday, 1 October 2011 23:28 (1 year ago) Permalink

I have an 18+ Student Oyster Card, but when I try to put a travelcard on it on the Oyster website it tries to charge me at the regular rate. I'd call but I don't have a phone yet...

Anyone know what the deal with this is?

― Hills Like White Broncos (EDB), Tuesday, 4 October 2011 18:17 (1 year ago) Permalink

still never been to the old blue last

i love the palm tree

― post, Wednesday, 5 October 2011 05:49 (1 year ago) Permalink

EDB - I have no idea, but if you find out can you post it here? (I'm trying to help a load of foreign students apply online for 18+ student cards)

― Mister Potato shares Manchester United’s commitment to (Nasty, Brutish & Short), Wednesday, 5 October 2011 05:54 (1 year ago) Permalink

2 weeks pass...

So, when about to head out tonight I realised my oyster card had disappeared off the face of the planet, presumably dropped on a bus 2 or 3 weeks ago when I last used it. I set off moodily to the station expecting to have to fill in numerous forms, show various proofs of ID and address, and get a load of photos done. Apparently not. I got a replacement I about a minute without even giving my name.

― Mister Potato shares Manchester United’s commitment to (Nasty, Brutish & Short), Saturday, 22 October 2011 01:01 (1 year ago) Permalink

Xpost: got a reply from tfl essentially saying "just pay at the machine, dude"
Also, I am writing this on a tfl bus. Appropriately meta.

― Hills Like White Broncos (EDB), Saturday, 22 October 2011 01:39 (1 year ago) Permalink

http://citymapper.co.uk/

FUCKING HELL SO MUCH BETTER THAN THE LYING PIECE OF SHIT ON THE TFL WEBSITE

― lex pretend, Tuesday, 25 October 2011 11:09 (1 year ago) Permalink

I like how they give you the prices.

― TracerHandVEVO (Tracer Hand), Tuesday, 25 October 2011 11:20 (1 year ago) Permalink

It doesn't seem to understand that I might want to use the bus AND the tube

― Mister Potato shares Manchester United’s commitment to (Nasty, Brutish & Short), Tuesday, 25 October 2011 11:25 (1 year ago) Permalink

or that there are trains. Fastest time it has for my 28-min commute to work is 1h.

― stet, Tuesday, 25 October 2011 11:26 (1 year ago) Permalink

Looks good for short journeys, TFL Journey Planner is shit

― Juice Should Be Sterliized (Tom D.), Tuesday, 25 October 2011 11:31 (1 year ago) Permalink

It's ideal for Hackney, which has no Tube and barely has trains

― TracerHandVEVO (Tracer Hand), Tuesday, 25 October 2011 11:38 (1 year ago) Permalink

2 weeks pass...

It's certainly shit at weekends. Reduced to near fire-bombing rage yesterday and today when I'm
forced to travel beyond my walking range.

The hours of sunlight are so precious at this time of year in the Uk- and wasting time today with Victoria Line collapse which buses seem completely unprepared for.

― Bob Six, Sunday, 13 November 2011 13:11 (1 year ago) Permalink

It is virtually impossible to get a bus westward across the City nowadays, everything gets ridiculously snarled up around Cannon Street. Seriously got to the point where walking is the best way from getting from London Bridge to Holborn.

― Matt DC, Monday, 14 November 2011 09:57 (1 year ago) Permalink

― mark s, Monday, 14 November 2011 10:09 (1 year ago) Permalink

It’s a combination of Boris not really wanting Londoners in central London at the weekend, just rich tourists who can afford to stay at the Savoy, walk around town and attend Boris’ Big Events (you think this is bad? Wait until the Olympics, when presumably we’ll be shot if we try to venture beyond, say, Hyde Park Corner) and the underlying and insoluble problem with London transport which is that the roads are too narrow; the place was built for horse-drawn carriages and in the hugely irritating old-school Viennese style which means lots of sloping streets converging at one big junction, rather than a more sensible grid system. Short of knocking down the entire city and rebuilding from scratch, though, I don’t really see what could be done to solve the problem.

― Here he is with the classic "Poème Électronique." Good track (Marcello Carlin), Monday, 14 November 2011 10:45 (1 year ago) Permalink

Well for one they could work on the lines at night, rather than on the weekend, which just inconveniences several thousands more.

― Noise II Men (EDB), Monday, 14 November 2011 11:59 (1 year ago) Permalink

I'm just in a bad mood after being so painfully scorned by tfl headaches yesterday.

― Noise II Men (EDB), Monday, 14 November 2011 12:00 (1 year ago) Permalink

30 minute snarl up on the way to work today thanx to some piddling little piece of nondescript roadmending. Don't know why the economy's so bad, there appear to be tens of thousands of guys working on digging up virtually every street in London.

― R. Stornoway (Tom D.), Monday, 14 November 2011 12:03 (1 year ago) Permalink

Their excuse for not doing night work is "complaints from local residents."

― Here he is with the classic "Poème Électronique." Good track (Marcello Carlin), Monday, 14 November 2011 12:04 (1 year ago) Permalink

They've been working on Holloway Road at night for a while, hundreds of the buggers swarming all over it.

― R. Stornoway (Tom D.), Monday, 14 November 2011 12:13 (1 year ago) Permalink

you sure that's not the Joe Meek Appreciation Society?

― Here he is with the classic "Poème Électronique." Good track (Marcello Carlin), Monday, 14 November 2011 13:34 (1 year ago) Permalink

I've noticed that the presence of suicidal landlady murderer Joe Meek's former studio isn't exactly advertised round here. For the first few years after I moved here the (I think it's green, from memory) plaque was obscured by a To Let sign.

― R. Stornoway (Tom D.), Monday, 14 November 2011 13:56 (1 year ago) Permalink

You know what happens a lot here that I just can't imagine ever being acceptable anywhere, is when buses abruptly change their destination mid-journey. I'd say this happens on the 341 at least once every couple of weeks in the morning: the bus will be going to waterloo, then all of a sudden (usually around the angel, but sometimes not until holborn) it just announces that it'll terminate at the aldwych. I always get off before that anyway, but I still get indignant on behalf of the (possibly imagined) people on my bus who have been on it since Tottenham and need to actually get to waterloo. Like, why don't they just pick a fucking destination and stick to it?!

Also cosign every road being dug up everywhere, always. Or at least that's what it feels like.

― sktsh, Monday, 14 November 2011 22:46 (1 year ago) Permalink

although now that I've got that off my chest I feel like I should say that transport in london is still pretty fucking amazing.

― sktsh, Monday, 14 November 2011 22:47 (1 year ago) Permalink

in my experience, the route changes are mostly to do with drivers hours - they can't drive passengers after a certain number of hours. i once got on a bus which turned us all out *1 stop* later (and then proceeded past where i was going and onto the depot empty).

but yes, anyone who's ever lived anywhere where the buses stop at 18:00 and there are no buses at all on a sunday would never complain at london transport.

― koogs, Monday, 14 November 2011 23:17 (1 year ago) Permalink

Seriously. I moved here from a city with pretty much 2 and a half subway lines (for over 3 million people).

― Noise II Men (EDB), Monday, 14 November 2011 23:38 (1 year ago) Permalink

but yes, anyone who's ever lived anywhere where the buses stop at 18:00 and there are no buses at all on a sunday would never complain at london transport.

the village up the hill from where i grew up had one bus a WEEK and i still complain about london transport's permanent guerrilla campaign to ruin people's lives

― all i see is angels in my eyes (lex pretend), Tuesday, 15 November 2011 06:21 (1 year ago) Permalink

buses abruptly terminating mid-journey is one of the worst things it does. especially if it's a pretty packed bus, the one behind that everyone has to try to cram on to is also packed, and for the entire miserable experience you get to pay the overpriced fare twice

― all i see is angels in my eyes (lex pretend), Tuesday, 15 November 2011 06:22 (1 year ago) Permalink

in my experience, the route changes are mostly to do with drivers hours - they can't drive passengers after a certain number of hours.

seems what the problem is, is failing to plan adequately so that drivers can actually get to the end of the route within their hours (ie including taking into account mental traffic jams which mean it takes 45 minutes to drive round holborn circus FOR EXAMPLE) (cuz in practice, that's when it most often happens - ie when all the passengers are at their most stressed/late/grumpy anyway)

― all i see is angels in my eyes (lex pretend), Tuesday, 15 November 2011 06:24 (1 year ago) Permalink

Barclays bikes are definitely my favourite thing about transport in London these days. Use them all the time for quick trips into town etc, much more convenient than taking my own bike.

― toby, Tuesday, 15 November 2011 06:38 (1 year ago) Permalink

citymapper not so good as it doesn't have regular rail in it (only the orange lined "overground" rail)

― post, Tuesday, 15 November 2011 07:39 (1 year ago) Permalink

xxxp, can you ask for a ticket from the driver if the bus terminates early or is that only if it breaks down?

― Mohombi Khush Hua (ShariVari), Tuesday, 15 November 2011 07:44 (1 year ago) Permalink

> seems what the problem is, is failing to plan adequately so that drivers can actually get to the end of the route within their hours

traffic isn't that predictable though. you could err on the side of caution but that'd mean drivers getting to the depot way ahead of their shift change and the result of that's the same, a driver not driving (although it would mean the bus was free to go out again. but is the bottleneck the buses or the drivers?)

> you get to pay the overpriced fare twice

the three times this has happened to me in the 10 years i've been here, the driver's written a transfer ticket. or i've just walked the extra mile. and it's not an issue if you have a season ticket.

― koogs, Tuesday, 15 November 2011 07:49 (1 year ago) Permalink

tbf if the driver wrote a transfer ticket for everyone who had to change bus for this reason during peak time - it would be quicker to walk

― post, Tuesday, 15 November 2011 07:59 (1 year ago) Permalink

They used to do one ticket for everyone on the bus.

― toby, Tuesday, 15 November 2011 08:03 (1 year ago) Permalink

^^exactly. plus factor in bus drivers who ignore you if you ask for them. i've never seen anyone ask for or receive a transfer ticket at these times cuz everyone recognises that it's just more hassle at a time when you're already stressed out of your mind.

ANOTHER problem w/london transport is how british people are SO ACCEPTING of INADEQUATE SERVICE

― all i see is angels in my eyes (lex pretend), Tuesday, 15 November 2011 08:04 (1 year ago) Permalink

"exactly" xp to post

― all i see is angels in my eyes (lex pretend), Tuesday, 15 November 2011 08:04 (1 year ago) Permalink

um, Oyster card?

The system is never going to work because the way London is built, managing or directing traffic is pretty much ungovernable (short of extending the congestion charge boundaries to Brent Cross/Uxbridge/Croydon/Tilbury and then you'll still get BBC/Evening Standard whines about OH I HAVE TO PAY FOR PARKING MY CAR IT'S SOOOOOOO UNFAAAAAAIR). The free-for-all roadworks are a direct result of eighties Thatcher deregulation and nobody's got any teeth to do anything about it because the lobbyists will come round like moths and talk them out of it.

― Here he is with the classic "Poème Électronique." Good track (Marcello Carlin), Tuesday, 15 November 2011 08:49 (1 year ago) Permalink

^^^^this. All things considered, the buses in London are a fantastic service, compared to just about any other city on earth, in my experience. The occasional terminated journey is a small price to pay. Also, despite fare increases, London buses are still very good value- compare Oxford, where a 2 mile journey can cost £2.50, or Manchester, where Oxford Rd has 4 bus companies competing for business and yet you'll still pay more than you would in London.

The Tube on the other hand is a disgrace, but that again is a legacy of Conservative deregulation, like the national rail network in microcosm.

― good luck in your pyramid (Neil S), Tuesday, 15 November 2011 09:16 (1 year ago) Permalink

I don't pay twice in terminating-early situations (used to happen a lot more often on the Victoria-bound 38, especially in the bendy days), I tell the driver on bus #2 that I've just been booted off the one in front and walk past. OK, back in the bendy days, this wasn't even an issue.

― Michael Jones, Tuesday, 15 November 2011 09:32 (1 year ago) Permalink

> SO ACCEPTING of INADEQUATE SERVICE

if the alternative is being wound up by tiny things, of minor delays "RUINING" your life, i'll take the accepting.

― koogs, Tuesday, 15 November 2011 09:34 (1 year ago) Permalink

xpost Yes, I've never had a driver ask me to pay again in those situations. They usually know if the bus in front has terminated early, and if you say that's what happened, they'll just shrug and thumb you on. Doesn't stop the infuriating situation sometimes where the announcement that the bus is terminating is made, but the bus you're supposed to be decanting to shoots past just as you're getting off the terminator.

― Fizzles the Chimp (GamalielRatsey), Tuesday, 15 November 2011 09:35 (1 year ago) Permalink

yeah drivers aren't deliberately making things hard for anyone, just doing what must be a difficult job at the best of times. No excuse for rudeness, but rude drivers are very much the minority.

― good luck in your pyramid (Neil S), Tuesday, 15 November 2011 09:37 (1 year ago) Permalink

xpost I don't know about that. While I try to maintain a zen-like calm in these situations, it's very hard not to let RAGE take hold of you. On one memorable occasion I was running down the road after a bus, with a schoolboy iirc, both of us roaring obscenities, he stopped, took off his shoe and hurled it at the back of the bus and I threw a book I was holding.

Both slightly rueful afterwards as we went and collected our belongings, but agreed it was, in his words, 'whack'.

― Fizzles the Chimp (GamalielRatsey), Tuesday, 15 November 2011 09:38 (1 year ago) Permalink

and for the entire miserable experience you get to pay the overpriced fare twice

No you don't, you just walk on the 2nd bus without paying, that's what I always do... and whenever I see my fellow (stranded) partners pulling out their Oystercards for the 2nd journey, I always feel like going up to them and saying, "What are you doing? This journey is free!". Haven't done it yet.

― R. Stornoway (Tom D.), Tuesday, 15 November 2011 09:42 (1 year ago) Permalink

I have a pass, sometimes revalidate it just for kicks.

― good luck in your pyramid (Neil S), Tuesday, 15 November 2011 09:43 (1 year ago) Permalink

My bus usage is such that on most occasions I fully expect to use at least four buses, at which point the cost for the day caps out at £4.00 (I don't use the tube). On the few occasions when I know I'm only going to use two buses (for a there and back trip = £2.60), I always demand an extension ticket when a bus terminates prematurely. I have never had a problem with drivers being unwilling to provide extension tickets. It seems it's an easy matter for them to tap something into their console, which then issues an extension ticket. It's actually quite simple because it's irrelevant where you got on or are planning to go as the £1.30 fare covers the entire journey of the bus. Therefore the extension ticket is valid for the remainder of the bus route (but subject to time limitation, of course).

Alternatively (as suggested above) you can just brazen it out and walk onto the second bus, although that can occasionally lead to problems. Better to have an extension ticket in such situations.

― dubmill, Tuesday, 15 November 2011 09:49 (1 year ago) Permalink

Or, of course, you could get a bus pass for £17.80 a week and not have to worry about any of this.

― Here he is with the classic "Poème Électronique." Good track (Marcello Carlin), Tuesday, 15 November 2011 09:51 (1 year ago) Permalink

I could, but that would involve me wasting money since I don't use the bus every day.

― dubmill, Tuesday, 15 November 2011 09:53 (1 year ago) Permalink

Of the last six journeys I've taken on the 63 going to work, I think 4 of them have stopped early. It's not a new development, but it seems to be getting worse.
I sent a complaint letter to TFL back in July? maybe August? about it (about it and the way the drivers can be such dickbags about giving out transfers !!!), and they didn't bother to respond.
It just happened again this morning... bus driver told everyone to get on the other 63 in front... except that it wouldn't let anyone on. FANTASTIC.

― salsa shark, Thursday, 17 November 2011 09:39 (1 year ago) Permalink

TFL cover a massive area -- better surely to make the complaint to the specific bus company covering your area and routes: put their complaints number* on yr mobile and ramp it up the moment this happens

(it's on the bus somewhere, but obv with iphones and such is now much easier to find after the fact)

― mark s, Thursday, 17 November 2011 09:57 (1 year ago) Permalink

I somehow spent £14 on my oyster yesterday before I'd even made my trip home, even though I didn't leave the house till noon. What the fuck happened? How is it even possible when there's supposedly a price cap? (My trip - bus to Shoreditch, then Liverpool St -> Bank -> Waterloo [through that odd Waterloo and City line] -> Surbiton.)

― sunn :o))) (Merdeyeux), Thursday, 17 November 2011 10:18 (1 year ago) Permalink

most likely is that it failed to check you out of a journey -- when you swipe at the end, if it doesn't read it for some reason, it treats it as you doing a runner (also if you forget to) (or actually do a runner)

― mark s, Thursday, 17 November 2011 10:22 (1 year ago) Permalink

Isn't there separate caps for tubes, trains and buses?

― James Mitchell, Thursday, 17 November 2011 10:23 (1 year ago) Permalink

There shouldn't be for anything that would be covered by a standard one-day travelcard. Mark S is probably right.

― Mohombi Khush Hua (ShariVari), Thursday, 17 November 2011 10:25 (1 year ago) Permalink

Sounds like you were capped at the price of a zone 1-6 anytime travelcard (which is ore than I would have thought):
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/14416.aspx

― you don't exist in the database (woof), Thursday, 17 November 2011 10:27 (1 year ago) Permalink

Waterloo and City line a likely culprit for that - no gates, you can exit without swiping.

― Quoth the raven "Nevermind" (ledge), Thursday, 17 November 2011 10:27 (1 year ago) Permalink

yep, go to a desk and explain what happened and they'll refund you

― Crackle Box, Thursday, 17 November 2011 10:31 (1 year ago) Permalink

yeah I was surprised to find myself suddenly out in the open of Waterloo station, but thought I'd be alright because I was immediately swiping again to get onto a train anyway. Bawbags. (That's the first serious problem I've had with transport in London, though!)

― sunn :o))) (Merdeyeux), Thursday, 17 November 2011 10:36 (1 year ago) Permalink

yes waterloo is terrible for that (as well as actually getting lost and going in a giant circle via underground passages for hours on end): always swipe out even if it means hunting around -- the first time i made this mistake i was with a student-age person... when i told her that was weird i seem to have escaped without swiping she literally screamed a little, grabbed my card and ran around till she found somewhere to swipe me out (they have loans to pay back) -- you have a few seconds' grace apparently

― mark s, Thursday, 17 November 2011 10:43 (1 year ago) Permalink

A few seconds? I suppose they have to "time out" your journey sooner or later but would've thought you'd get a lot more leeway than that.

― Quoth the raven "Nevermind" (ledge), Thursday, 17 November 2011 10:58 (1 year ago) Permalink

london bridge is bad for that too

― all i see is angels in my eyes (lex pretend), Thursday, 17 November 2011 11:02 (1 year ago) Permalink

i was very struck by that little scream -- she may have exaggerated the lack of time allowed to get the point home

― mark s, Thursday, 17 November 2011 11:07 (1 year ago) Permalink

A few seconds? I suppose they have to "time out" your journey sooner or later but would've thought you'd get a lot more leeway than that.

I'm sure I remember an occasion when I went home after work via a few beers in finsbury park, without touching out or in again, and only getting charged for the one journey. i hope i'm not making this up.

― Upt0eleven, Thursday, 17 November 2011 11:32 (1 year ago) Permalink

i think different territories have different policies or programming maybe? there was a whole year when some of the south london stations wouldn't accept oysters at all

― mark s, Thursday, 17 November 2011 11:42 (1 year ago) Permalink

I didn't touch out or back in once (gates were open), half an hour drink, timed me out.

Vauxhall had a problem for ages where even if you did touch in, it wouldn't register it on your journey history. So you'd get charged extra.

― Fizzles the Chimp (GamalielRatsey), Thursday, 17 November 2011 13:23 (1 year ago) Permalink

Of the last six journeys I've taken on the 63 going to work, I think 4 of them have stopped early. It's not a new development, but it seems to be getting worse.
I sent a complaint letter to TFL back in July? maybe August? about it (about it and the way the drivers can be such dickbags about giving out transfers !!!), and they didn't bother to respond.
It just happened again this morning... bus driver told everyone to get on the other 63 in front... except that it wouldn't let anyone on. FANTASTIC.
― salsa shark, Thursday, November 17, 2011 9:39 AM (9 hours ago)

Aaaaand 2/2 today. The driver on the way home didn't even bother making an announcement that the bus would stop early, just flashed the lights when he arrived at the 'last' stop. At least the 63 driver immediately in front actually let the other bus rejects on.

― salsa shark, Thursday, 17 November 2011 19:36 (1 year ago) Permalink

three of us flicking the Vs at the 43 driver who decided to drive his bus with 1 passenger slowly along the queue making "hey, try the next bus maybe?" gestures at us. nice moment.

― stet, Thursday, 17 November 2011 19:44 (1 year ago) Permalink

(That's the first serious problem I've had with transport in London, though!)

aaand number two is the entire victoria line being closed this weekend. taking a sleeping bag on the bus it is.

― sunn :o))) (Merdeyeux), Thursday, 17 November 2011 22:57 (1 year ago) Permalink

i often wonder whether the much-vaunted improvements that tfl have shut down london every weekend to make since before i moved here SEVEN YEARS AGO will ever materialise

― all i see is angels in my eyes (lex pretend), Thursday, 17 November 2011 23:01 (1 year ago) Permalink

the overland system has improved immeasurably (and not just the ELL), but that's new stuff opening rather than stuff closing and repoening

― mark s, Thursday, 17 November 2011 23:11 (1 year ago) Permalink

repwning

― mark s, Thursday, 17 November 2011 23:11 (1 year ago) Permalink

2 months pass...

No tube near me so I take the bus. Why exactly do buses terminate early? Assume it's to do with them being able to claim that 99% of their buses are consistently on schedule?

― gyac, Thursday, 16 February 2012 20:41 (1 year ago) Permalink

That likely has something to do with it. I think it sometimes happens so they can keep up frequency on the main body of the route (if two late buses are bunched near the end of a route it makes sense to stop one early and turn it around rather than have them both drag to the end of the route and back); I was once told that it sometimes had something to do with regulations about how long a driver can drive without a break...

― Tim, Thursday, 16 February 2012 21:07 (1 year ago) Permalink

The bunching thing makes sense but it's pretty shit to have two loads of passengers on one bus. Surely it makes sense for drivers to break before the route starts?

― gyac, Thursday, 16 February 2012 21:14 (1 year ago) Permalink

If it's to keep up the frequency they're not doing a v good job of it on some routes

THAT'S RIGHT 63, I MEAN YOU

― salsa shark, Thursday, 16 February 2012 21:46 (1 year ago) Permalink

I agree with you - though it's not always easy to be precise about how long a route will take, especially at busy times.

Seems like I'm being a TFL apologist today, which is not my normal look.

xpost aw the dear old 63's not so bad. Helps if you're on a bit of the route which overlaps with the 363, obv.

― Tim, Thursday, 16 February 2012 21:50 (1 year ago) Permalink

"We will now pass the best designs and concepts on to bus manufacturers, so they can be developed into final design proposals. A competitive tendering process will then determine to which company we award the final contract to build the new bus for London. This should be decided by the end of next year. The first prototype of the new bus will be on the streets of London by 2011."

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/corporate/projectsandschemes/technologyandequipment/anewbusforlondon/next-steps.aspx

― James Mitchell, Monday, 27 February 2012 10:28 (1 year ago) Permalink

Looking forward to taking a ride on one of these tomorrow, although I believe there are only eight of them in service to begin with.

― dubmill, Monday, 27 February 2012 10:38 (1 year ago) Permalink

One. There's only one. The same one unveiled as a prototype last year.

― James Mitchell, Monday, 27 February 2012 10:40 (1 year ago) Permalink

Does Southern Rail seem to be really struggling lately? I had a run of 8-9 consecutive working days recently where every commute, morning or evening, was beset with delays and cancellations. This is the Lon Bri-C Palace-Victoria loop, chiefly.

Might just be a bad run but you sort of sense that the infrastructure is falling to bits when stuff like that keeps happening.

(Oh, yeah, saw the prototype parked up near Hyde Park Corner last week. Hype Prank Conman, more like, amirite. Get the 38 frequently, hoping I get a chance to ride this chap...)

― Michael Jones, Monday, 27 February 2012 10:42 (1 year ago) Permalink

Given that the reasons (as I understand it) for abolishing the Routemaster in the first place were safety concerns and disabled access, how are they laying off for those concerns with this new design? Presumably that middle door is wheelchair accessible but there is still the possibility of people falling out the back.

― ban this sick stunt (anagram), Monday, 27 February 2012 10:49 (1 year ago) Permalink

Boris will be there to catch them. Esp. pretty ladies.

― Charles Kennedy Jumped Up, He Called 'Oh No'. (Tom D.), Monday, 27 February 2012 10:50 (1 year ago) Permalink

One. There's only one.

Ah, the report I read was misleading and did not make it clear that there are eight to begin with but they are not all entering service today.

Seems rather a damp squib style launch but I guess there is still quite a bit of testing to do and they didn't want to take the risk of an overambitious launch.

― dubmill, Monday, 27 February 2012 10:54 (1 year ago) Permalink

I'm on that line and haven't noticed any major issues going on, although they're regularly a couple of minutes late. The infrastructure should be okay given it's the same infrastructure a lot of the orange line runs on.

― Homosexual Satan Wasp (Matt DC), Monday, 27 February 2012 10:55 (1 year ago) Permalink

I'm beginning to wonder if more than one blunder bus will ever be built.

― James Mitchell, Monday, 27 February 2012 10:56 (1 year ago) Permalink

What, you mean if Livingstone gets back in he could cancel them? But there's a contract, isn't there, for a certain number to be built by the manufacturer?

― dubmill, Monday, 27 February 2012 10:58 (1 year ago) Permalink

Main reasons for abolishing the Routemaster were that it's a 50yr-old design which requires more intensive maintenance than newer buses, having two members of staff increases running costs and the requirement by 2017 for all buses to be fully accessible.

I haven't actually seen the new bus, but it appears the rear door is more like a standard door than the open-space of the Routemaster, which also means you wouldn't be able to easily run up and jump onto the platform.

The original designer of the 'new Routemaster' has written a pretty scathing summary of the design and tendering process http://www.capoco.co.uk/media/downloads/Capoco.NewBus4London.Audit.1.pdf

There's two completed buses, I think.

― Les Tressle (useless chamber), Monday, 27 February 2012 11:02 (1 year ago) Permalink

Just in time for Boris' re-election, what a coincidence!

― Charles Kennedy Jumped Up, He Called 'Oh No'. (Tom D.), Monday, 27 February 2012 11:03 (1 year ago) Permalink

Apparently the rear door will be open on the new one if there's a conductor on board.

― ledge, Monday, 27 February 2012 11:03 (1 year ago) Permalink

It's entirely reliant on the private companies operating the buses, like Arriva, deciding "Oh, let's replace our fleet of buses with these new ones costing over £1mn each instead of these ones costing £150,000 each."

― James Mitchell, Monday, 27 February 2012 11:08 (1 year ago) Permalink

Southern are so often delayed I've come to rely on it, and this morning they were on time and I missed the damn train, damn it.

― stet, Monday, 27 February 2012 11:10 (1 year ago) Permalink

really really could not care less about what SHAPE the buses are, compared to how regularly they turn up and how quickly and painlessly they can carry me to my destination

― lex pretend, Monday, 27 February 2012 11:11 (1 year ago) Permalink

Yeah, and it won't be in use at all when there's no conductor*. What I meant was the design of it, it's only open along the side of the bus, whereas on a Routemaster it was the back and the side, so it was easier to jump onto the platform from behind, when the bus is moving, which is kinda dangerous, tbh, but that's how Boris likes to roll (see also 'why does Hyde Park Corner/Elephant & Castle/ Vauxhall Cross need improving for cyclists? It's fine if you keep your wits about you. Tally ho!'), but you won't even be able to do that with the new bus.

*Conductors aren't there to issue tickets or check fares, just to make sure people don't fall out of the open door.

Bendy buses - 3 doors, only a driver to check fares - evil free bus costing billions in lost fares.
New bus 4 London - 3 doors, only a driver to check fares, oh shi

― Les Tressle (useless chamber), Monday, 27 February 2012 11:12 (1 year ago) Permalink

lex otm.

Punting millions of TfL money at a private constructor to 'develop' existing technology, paying to terminate existing contracts of buses that you don't like the shape of, having to replace those buses with even more of a less-efficient type (routes converted from bendy to double-decker need about 15% more buses to maintain capacity) all adds up to less money to spend on the service as a whole.

― Les Tressle (useless chamber), Monday, 27 February 2012 11:15 (1 year ago) Permalink

Bendy buses - 3 doors, only a driver to check fares - evil free bus costing billions in lost fares.
New bus 4 London - 3 doors, only a driver to check fares, oh shi

The stated role of the conductor seems odd. If the conductor also performed the role of a ticket inspector -- not to validate every ticket but to keep an eye on people not validating their oyster cards using the readers -- that could go some way towards cutting fare evasion, maybe to the extent of paying for the extra crew member, I don't know. On the other hand, in view of the existence of a middle door, and the conductor not having eyes in the back of his/her head, it would probably be unworkable.

― dubmill, Monday, 27 February 2012 11:28 (1 year ago) Permalink

Anyone would think it was a dumb gimmick to get voters' attention or something.

― Homosexual Satan Wasp (Matt DC), Monday, 27 February 2012 11:28 (1 year ago) Permalink

or an olympics prop

― koogs, Monday, 27 February 2012 11:29 (1 year ago) Permalink

I agree about the Olympics but how is it going to pay electoral dividends if it is widely perceived as a complete failure?

― dubmill, Monday, 27 February 2012 11:33 (1 year ago) Permalink

Another thing with the conductor, is on the old RM, the standing capacity was only 6 iirc, to allow the conductor to walk around the lower saloon and check tickets (no-one stands upstairs). The new bus will have the standard as many that can squeeze on as possible, so when it's busy the door operator won't be able to see what's going on at other door anyway.

Anyway, most of what I know comes from this guy http://www.boriswatch.co.uk/2012/02/27/the-emperors-new-bus-part-1/ and this is a very good summary of what the new bus actually means right now.

I don't know if people will see it as a complete failure - Boris's traditional voters in the outer boroughs won't see it about, but they weren't expecting to, and they don't even use buses so they don't care, they're happy to believe that this is the first one and if Boris gets in for another term he'll do all he bally well can to have the whole fleet converted before the next election. Boris's supporters in the media (Gilligan, mainly) will refuse to accept it as a failure, regardless of what happens in the next 3 months.

― Les Tressle (useless chamber), Monday, 27 February 2012 11:48 (1 year ago) Permalink

The people who live in the outer suburbs, never see the bus (and don't use buses anyway) are not going to vote for Johnson based on that issue, because it's not an issue they have any interest in. They'll vote for him for other reasons.

If this bus doesn't enter service in large numbers, that can easily be spun as a failure. I can't see how an expensive bus that nobody's ever seen and doesn't enter widespread service can be spun as any kind of success.

― dubmill, Monday, 27 February 2012 11:55 (1 year ago) Permalink

they don't even use buses so they don't care

Truth

― Charles Kennedy Jumped Up, He Called 'Oh No'. (Tom D.), Monday, 27 February 2012 11:57 (1 year ago) Permalink

True, they'll vote for him because he's Tory and he isn't Ken Livingstone. But what else has Boris actually done, other than rid London of the scourge of the bendy bus (which was actually popular with most people who used it regularly (because it was free amirite)) and 'bring back' the Routemaster which is of course A Good Thing, like everything else from the 1950s.
I don't know, I'm strawmanning furiously here. I wish this election was something other than the Boris-v-Ken show.

― Les Tressle (useless chamber), Monday, 27 February 2012 12:04 (1 year ago) Permalink

Not sure I hold withe the idea that people who live in the outer suburbs don't use buses when they're in town.

This isn't going to be an issue in the mayoral election though. Spiralling fares, on the other hand...

― Homosexual Satan Wasp (Matt DC), Monday, 27 February 2012 12:06 (1 year ago) Permalink

... quote attributed to Thatcher, but I don't believe it

― Charles Kennedy Jumped Up, He Called 'Oh No'. (Tom D.), Monday, 27 February 2012 12:10 (1 year ago) Permalink

It would seem to me Johnson might have to be very careful in the short term to strike the right balance between crowing about the new bus and keeping quiet about it. I notice information about it is rather buried on the TFL site.

Johnson doesn't seem to be in a very strong position. I might be wrong, but unless he can get Livingstone on particular issues, Johnson might be reduced to hoping that there's enough residual dislike of Livingstone to keep him out.

― dubmill, Monday, 27 February 2012 12:13 (1 year ago) Permalink

xp another favourite myth busted ;_;

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Margaret_Thatcher#Misattributed

― ledge, Monday, 27 February 2012 12:13 (1 year ago) Permalink

Johnson might be reduced to hoping that there's enough residual dislike of Livingstone to keep him out.

There's enough residual dislike of Livingstone to keep him out

― Charles Kennedy Jumped Up, He Called 'Oh No'. (Tom D.), Monday, 27 February 2012 12:16 (1 year ago) Permalink

The Standard will probably be a bit (read a lot) more circumspect about backing any one candidate this time, the editorship skews Tory but it won't be Boris's propaganda paper this time round. Chance of Ken shooting himself in the foot is pretty high though.

Boris has done a fair bit of work on differentiating himself from Westminster so the coalition shouldn't really be much of a problem for him, but then I'm not really sure how much voters connect the mayoralty to national politics anyway - Frank Dobson couldn't win even when Labour were winning landslides, etc.

Also, people like the bikes, a lot.

― Homosexual Satan Wasp (Matt DC), Monday, 27 February 2012 12:17 (1 year ago) Permalink

so the coalition shouldn't really be much of a problem for him

I don't know about, I would say that's the main reason Ken has any chance at all of winning this

― Charles Kennedy Jumped Up, He Called 'Oh No'. (Tom D.), Monday, 27 February 2012 12:20 (1 year ago) Permalink

This has probably been said before but providing bikes without providing helmets seems borderline homicidal

― TracerHandVEVO (Tracer Hand), Monday, 27 February 2012 12:49 (1 year ago) Permalink

I see tons of people who cycle in from zone 3/2 doing it without helmets. I see more people without them than with them, which seems insane to me.

― gyac, Monday, 27 February 2012 12:51 (1 year ago) Permalink

providing helmets would be a logistical nightmare.

― ledge, Monday, 27 February 2012 12:51 (1 year ago) Permalink

no-one wears helmets in paris and they had zero fatalities last year (allegedly). (nevertheless i am all for them.)

― ledge, Monday, 27 February 2012 12:52 (1 year ago) Permalink

I don't know anyone who's warmed to Boris at all - he's been a bit of an embarrassment, and once the Boris Bikes start getting re-attributed to Ken, he'll be out on his arse, is my guess.

― Andrew Farrell, Monday, 27 February 2012 12:53 (1 year ago) Permalink

Do you know many people who are inclined toward voting Tory, or would at least consider doing so? If the answer's 'no' then you're not in much of a position to judge as your social circle is pretty self-selecting. As is mine.

The bikes are 'Boris bikes' forever now I think, no way are they ever being attributed to Ken.

― Homosexual Satan Wasp (Matt DC), Monday, 27 February 2012 12:57 (1 year ago) Permalink

I'm a bit surprised nobody has yet been killed using one of those bikes. (I've not heard of any fatalities.) Quite a few of the users seem not very competent. On the other hand, most of the deaths of cyclists seem to occur on main roads into London (where there are much larger numbers of vans and trucks), not in central London itself.

― dubmill, Monday, 27 February 2012 12:58 (1 year ago) Permalink

(xp) otm

― Charles Kennedy Jumped Up, He Called 'Oh No'. (Tom D.), Monday, 27 February 2012 12:59 (1 year ago) Permalink

I don't know about, I would say that's the main reason Ken has any chance at all of winning this

Maybe, maybe not. Seems to me that the people who do well in mayoral contests are self-styled maverick types who stand at odds with the leadership on key issues. Boris will be trying to distinguish himself from Cameron as much as he will from Ken, see a lot of posturing about "standing up for London", fighting national cuts in London etc etc.

― Homosexual Satan Wasp (Matt DC), Monday, 27 February 2012 13:01 (1 year ago) Permalink

I'm amazed that anyone thinks Ken has a chance in hell.

― TracerHandVEVO (Tracer Hand), Monday, 27 February 2012 13:03 (1 year ago) Permalink

Yeah to both the last two threads but suspect a lot of people will turn out to vote Ken, who probably wouldn't have been arsed otherwise, because it'd be a bloody nose for the Tories, despite Boris' not exactly convincing efforts to distance himslef from the coalition

― Charles Kennedy Jumped Up, He Called 'Oh No'. (Tom D.), Monday, 27 February 2012 13:04 (1 year ago) Permalink

... last two posts not last two threads

― Charles Kennedy Jumped Up, He Called 'Oh No'. (Tom D.), Monday, 27 February 2012 13:05 (1 year ago) Permalink

<I>Do you know many people who are inclined toward voting Tory, or would at least consider doing so?</I>

Yeah, a few, but my point was more establishing that Tom D is not Speaking For London. The last election was quite close after all.

Also "They're popularly called Boris Bike but <I>actually</I> they're Ken's work" is the kind of quirky transport-based fact that Londoners eat up :)

― Andrew Farrell, Monday, 27 February 2012 13:07 (1 year ago) Permalink

I imagine everyone who benefited from the shrinking of the congestion charge zone will vote for Boris too!

multiple xps I used to cycle to school (not in London) and escaped serious injury after being tipped off my bike by a truck cos I had a helmet on. Interacting with buses and trucks in London seems terrifying to me, I don't understand it either.

― gyac, Monday, 27 February 2012 13:08 (1 year ago) Permalink

The last election was quite close after all.

The people voting for Ken at that point were voting for a proven winner, not somebody who had lost an election to a joke novelty candidate.

― TracerHandVEVO (Tracer Hand), Monday, 27 February 2012 13:12 (1 year ago) Permalink

There are some people who hold that helmets do you no good in most accidents and active harm in some - all the evidence I've seen has been fairly iffy and these are generally Live Free or Die types anyway.

― Andrew Farrell, Monday, 27 February 2012 13:13 (1 year ago) Permalink

xp that doesn't sound like an argument for re-electing the joke novelty candidate!

― Andrew Farrell, Monday, 27 February 2012 13:13 (1 year ago) Permalink

It's not supposed to be, but if you're looking for why there's a certain lack of enthusiasm for Ken this time around I think there's some explanatory juice to it

― TracerHandVEVO (Tracer Hand), Monday, 27 February 2012 13:17 (1 year ago) Permalink

Tracer otm. I feel like Ken should be walking it and another, newer candidate probably would have. There has to be a reason and "London's kinda done with you, Ken" might be part of it.

Boris' enthusiasm for them is pretty much what makes them his bikes. Whether or not they were Ken's idea (which even if they were he copied from Paris/Barcelona/wherever) is irrelevant.

I'm actually not surprised that no-one's been killed on them. As bikes go, they're basically tanks - very visible and impossible to go quickly on. Plus most people that use them are doing so for puddle-jump trips on the kind of slow-moving, central London roads that accidents don't really happen on too much. Plus their (presumed) inexperience means they're the kind of cyclist who doesn't take too many risks.

Although I drunkenly took one from King's Cross to Kennington at 6am yesterday.

― Upt0eleven, Monday, 27 February 2012 13:21 (1 year ago) Permalink

this is the first time i've heard about any connection between ken and the boris bikes! i think the link to boris is irreversible, whatever the truth - even left-leaning types give boris grudging credit for them.

it's possibly testament to how cannily boris fostered the general image of himself as a buffoon prior to the election, but his record in office being a non-disaster with even a couple of "accomplishments" prob means that his stock hasn't gone DOWN at least; there's the fare rises, of course, but i get the impression that discontent there is more general than aimed at a specific politician (given that neither ken nor boris seemed able to stop them rising). i also think he's been quite effective at distancing himself from the coalition over certain flashpoints (eg housing policy).

how the olympics turn out may change all of this, though of course given timing it may not at all - even if boris is re-elected and oversees a disaster olympics (and really it probably won't be a DISASTER), he has enough time to make back the ground.

would that a third credible candidate could shake things up, it's not as though ken enthuses me at this point either.

― lex pretend, Monday, 27 February 2012 13:23 (1 year ago) Permalink

With the right timing and some luck I think Diane Abbott could take it

― TracerHandVEVO (Tracer Hand), Monday, 27 February 2012 13:25 (1 year ago) Permalink

xp that doesn't sound like an argument for re-electing the joke novelty candidate!

does anyone really see him as a joke novelty candidate any more?

― lex pretend, Monday, 27 February 2012 13:26 (1 year ago) Permalink

I don't know, but at the time people definitely did!

― TracerHandVEVO (Tracer Hand), Monday, 27 February 2012 13:26 (1 year ago) Permalink

fucking wish diane would take it!

though actually, the timing of the olympics is prob a v good reason why we're stuck with the same-ol-same-ol ken vs boris snoozeathon choice this year - what brand new, untried candidate would possibly want to inherit the mayoralty on the eve of the olympics with all the potential for completely fucking up/getting fucked up? talk about having to hit the ground running.

― lex pretend, Monday, 27 February 2012 13:28 (1 year ago) Permalink

I don't know, but at the time people definitely did!

yeah they did! the fact that they don't any more, not even those who loathe him, is testament to, um, ~how far he's come~

― lex pretend, Monday, 27 February 2012 13:28 (1 year ago) Permalink

DIANE 2016~~~

― lex pretend, Monday, 27 February 2012 13:29 (1 year ago) Permalink

god i forgot we could've had oona king

smh labour

― lex pretend, Monday, 27 February 2012 13:37 (1 year ago) Permalink

Bad enough having to vote for Ken, but Diane Abbott?

― Charles Kennedy Jumped Up, He Called 'Oh No'. (Tom D.), Monday, 27 February 2012 13:41 (1 year ago) Permalink

But seriously, she must be thinking of it surely?

― Charles Kennedy Jumped Up, He Called 'Oh No'. (Tom D.), Monday, 27 February 2012 13:42 (1 year ago) Permalink

Yes, Diane Abbott >> either Ken or Boris.

Surprised that people have forgotten No Drink on Public Transport, or has that turned popular since?

― Andrew Farrell, Monday, 27 February 2012 13:56 (1 year ago) Permalink

I think no-one really drank on public transport before, and those that did haven't really stopped. Either way, it isn't/wasn't a problem and as a bylaw it's a bit of a nonthing.

― Upt0eleven, Monday, 27 February 2012 13:58 (1 year ago) Permalink

Sure, but trumpeting it as a Thing seemed to really underline his pompous buffoonery.

― Andrew Farrell, Monday, 27 February 2012 14:00 (1 year ago) Permalink

that was years ago and people's memories are too short to care, particularly since it's never actually enforced

― lex pretend, Monday, 27 February 2012 14:03 (1 year ago) Permalink

First run-out of the blunder bus is going teribly by all accounts.

― James Mitchell, Monday, 27 February 2012 14:17 (1 year ago) Permalink

If someone (GOD FORBID) gets knocked off a Boris bike by a Boris bus then I think he's in trouble.

― Michael Jones, Monday, 27 February 2012 14:19 (1 year ago) Permalink

The inaugural journey of the 'Boris bus', named after mayor of London Boris Johnson, saw it stall in Islington, north London, and experience a door that would not close, despite the driver turning it off and on again.
To compound matters, the bus, on the route 38 between Hackney in east London and Victoria station in the centre of the capital, was shadowed by a 'protest' bus hired by supporters of mayoral challenger Ken Livingstone.
ITV London Tonight correspondent Simon Harris - who was on the first bus journey - tweeted that a sticking rear brake was behind some of the bus' problems, possibly caused by overcrowding.
A Transport for London recovery vehicle was dispatched to follow the new bus as well after the problems it experienced.

http://www.metro.co.uk/news/891509-first-boris-bus-enjoys-maiden-journey-to-forget

― James Mitchell, Monday, 27 February 2012 14:19 (1 year ago) Permalink

That's okay, buses in London are never overcrowded.

― Upt0eleven, Monday, 27 February 2012 14:20 (1 year ago) Permalink

I for one welcome our new CGI bus overlords

― ledge, Monday, 27 February 2012 14:23 (1 year ago) Permalink

― TracerHandVEVO (Tracer Hand), Monday, 27 February 2012 15:22 (1 year ago) Permalink

Very nice but...

― Charles Kennedy Jumped Up, He Called 'Oh No'. (Tom D.), Monday, 27 February 2012 15:28 (1 year ago) Permalink

... oh, got you!

― Charles Kennedy Jumped Up, He Called 'Oh No'. (Tom D.), Monday, 27 February 2012 15:29 (1 year ago) Permalink

― TracerHandVEVO (Tracer Hand), Monday, 27 February 2012 15:33 (1 year ago) Permalink

"the New Bus has fixed windows that cannot be opened"

Why would they think this is a good idea?

― ledge, Monday, 27 February 2012 17:08 (1 year ago) Permalink

That'll be great at the height of summer with the buses crammed full of gormless Olympitourists

― Charles Kennedy Jumped Up, He Called 'Oh No'. (Tom D.), Monday, 27 February 2012 17:10 (1 year ago) Permalink

"the New Bus has fixed windows that cannot be opened"

Why would they think this is a good idea?

I'm guessing: air conditioning works much more effectively with windows closed so air hotter than target temperature is not allowed to enter the space being air conditioned. (But what happens if the a/c breaks down, or driver "forgets" to turn it on? Hopefully the design doesn't allow drivers any control over it)

― dubmill, Monday, 27 February 2012 17:26 (1 year ago) Permalink

IME all attempts at artificially improving the interior climate of a London bus meet in abject despair, cf. the heater that blasts the left-hand seats on the top deck during the winter, leaving your left leg a smoking wreck and the rest of your body the same as it was before

― TracerHandVEVO (Tracer Hand), Monday, 27 February 2012 17:30 (1 year ago) Permalink

WOO THATS MY ROUTE CANT WAIT TO RIDE ON IT. not that, having no experience of the old routemasters, i have any idea what the point is. in fact my sole feeling about it right now is one of mild anxiety at getting it wrong somehow when the time comes.

― shart practice (Merdeyeux), Monday, 27 February 2012 18:07 (1 year ago) Permalink

i dunno Tracer the new double decker 453 had awesome air con - while it was still necessary for that one week before it's all -1C.

― Rosie 47 (ken c), Monday, 27 February 2012 18:11 (1 year ago) Permalink

"the New Bus has fixed windows that cannot be opened"
Why would they think this is a good idea?
I'm guessing: air conditioning works much more effectively with windows closed so air hotter than target temperature is not allowed to enter the space being air conditioned. (But what happens if the a/c breaks down, or driver "forgets" to turn it on? Hopefully the design doesn't allow drivers any control over it)
― dubmill, Monday, 27 February 2012 12:26 (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Of course having an open platform kind of negates the effectiveness of air conditions.

Bring back the Widney Ace Mk X, It can't be a proper routemaster without them. Boris should have some made up at £1,000,000 a pop.

― American Fear of Pranksterism (Ed), Monday, 27 February 2012 19:20 (1 year ago) Permalink

You can call Boris a novelty joke candidate but come on, Ken is hardly Obama here.

― Homosexual Satan Wasp (Matt DC), Monday, 27 February 2012 19:39 (1 year ago) Permalink

Indeed, Ken can actually get shit done.

― American Fear of Pranksterism (Ed), Monday, 27 February 2012 19:42 (1 year ago) Permalink

2 months pass...

As if to usher in Boris's 2nd term the Victoria line has been fucked 3 out of 3 journeys to/from work this week

― The Eyeball Of Hull (Colonel Poo), Wednesday, 9 May 2012 11:56 (1 year ago) Permalink

Obviously, none of you are daft enough to do this, but no one should be attempting to catch south- or westbound buses that use Oxford St at the moment. I spent what seemed like a month on a 73 last night, unless it executed a bizarro diversion and then, inevitably, terminated early on Park Lane. I know they've been digging Ox St up in sections for about two years but right now it seems to be not quite bad enough that a permanent, effective, westbound diversion is in place but plenty bad enough that you can't get anywhere. Unless it was Surprise Extra Roadworks that had been held back until after the mayoral election.

― Michael Jones, Wednesday, 9 May 2012 12:01 (1 year ago) Permalink

It wasn't until I started my new job that I realized the doors to the Oxford St tube stations are actually CLOSED for 10 minutes at a time at the height of rush hour because of overcrowding. EVERY DAY. What the hell is going to happen in August...

― TracerHandVEVO (Tracer Hand), Wednesday, 9 May 2012 12:18 (1 year ago) Permalink

Yeah I used to go to Piccadilly Circus and take the Bakerloo line to Oxford Circus rather than try and get into Oxford Circus when I worked in Soho to get around that problem.

― The Eyeball Of Hull (Colonel Poo), Wednesday, 9 May 2012 12:26 (1 year ago) Permalink

still reeling from my commute home today. kensington to hackney overground - 12 minutes late (WHY?) hence completely sardine-packed, and the air con was broken (WHYYYYYY?). tfl continues to be intent on ruining my life. is it that fucking hard for things to RUN SMOOTHLY?

― liberté, égalité, beyoncé (lex pretend), Tuesday, 22 May 2012 22:28 (1 year ago) Permalink

3 weeks pass...

I am more pro than anti-Olympics, but fuck these Games Lanes and the "Games Family" that cruise them. http://bit.ly/L1OIoG

― stet, Tuesday, 12 June 2012 08:37 (1 year ago) Permalink

So. Bus strike, huh?

I'm a child of the 70s and all, but even I don't remember this many strikes under Mrs T. :-/

― White Chocolate Cheesecake, Friday, 22 June 2012 07:28 (11 months ago) Permalink

Got up extra early (partly because I overslept yesterday and really didn't want to be late again today) but my bus was running a normal service, luckily.

― The Eyeball Of Hull (Colonel Poo), Friday, 22 June 2012 07:52 (11 months ago) Permalink

I feel so stranded without buses :(

― salsa shark, Friday, 22 June 2012 10:25 (11 months ago) Permalink

Same! Never really occurred how much I rely on them

― sktsh, Friday, 22 June 2012 12:16 (11 months ago) Permalink

2 months pass...

http://twitpic.com/aoec96

― lex pretend, Tuesday, 28 August 2012 10:53 (9 months ago) Permalink

not transport but rodent related. a colleague of mine was coming into work for a night shift at about nine pm, walking through the car park (this is London btw) and a f'ing RAT ran up his trouser leg and bit him on the knee!

He ended up contracting something from this (not the black death or rabies - I think the doctor actually called it rat flu - is that really a thing) and he was laid up for about a week with the sweats.

― Fizzles, Tuesday, 28 August 2012 18:13 (9 months ago) Permalink

Beware: the rodents are rising up against us!

― I've been to Suffolk (Nasty, Brutish & Short), Tuesday, 28 August 2012 18:34 (9 months ago) Permalink

'rat flu' could well be weil's disease - scary stuff. afaik the symptoms are exactly like the flu, until you die.

― ledge, Wednesday, 29 August 2012 10:43 (9 months ago) Permalink

was told on the 1st aid course that I took before the summer that if you get physically sick i.e. vomit on Weil's disease you've had it. It's likely to be fatal.

There used to be & possibly still is a warning sign up on the side of the pillar on the corner of the O'Connell bridge in Dublin about the stuff. & there was still an annual Liffey swim. I think people were advised to shower thoroughly as soon as they got back out.
Also that swim cost thousands when the millenium clock was in the river, apparently cost 10,000 punts to have it moved to facilitate the swim.
Could never see the face of the thing through the water as it had been designed because the Liffey was so dirty. Clock was apparently designed by the drummer of the Whipping Boy's sister.

But yeah transport in London is shite innit? Though i do like taking long bus rides across town so I can see how areas interconnect.

― Stevolende, Wednesday, 29 August 2012 12:25 (9 months ago) Permalink

4 weeks pass...

http://wharferj.wordpress.com/2012/08/23/underground-guerilla-signs/

i haven't seen any of these in person but i might have a look out

― lex pretend, Wednesday, 26 September 2012 10:40 (8 months ago) Permalink

They popped up before the Olympics, I chuckled at the lap-sitting one.

― Matt DC, Wednesday, 26 September 2012 10:42 (8 months ago) Permalink

i liked the sloths one

― lex pretend, Wednesday, 26 September 2012 10:48 (8 months ago) Permalink

― r|t|c, Wednesday, 26 September 2012 11:50 (8 months ago) Permalink

brilliant stuff

― Mountain Excitement (Nasty, Brutish & Short), Wednesday, 26 September 2012 15:29 (8 months ago) Permalink

2 weeks pass...

http://www.lookforlonger.com/GameDesktop.aspx

― lex pretend, Thursday, 11 October 2012 16:51 (8 months ago) Permalink

yeah i know it's weird posting that on the day of the deadline at a time when most brits have logged off but OH WELL

i have ONE LEFT

― lex pretend, Thursday, 11 October 2012 16:52 (8 months ago) Permalink

lambeth north is really kind of pushing it

― suare, Thursday, 11 October 2012 17:02 (8 months ago) Permalink

i rolled my eyes so hard at that

― lex pretend, Thursday, 11 October 2012 17:26 (8 months ago) Permalink

Are you still missing one, the Lex? Which one?

― Tim, Friday, 12 October 2012 10:04 (8 months ago) Permalink

it was the one that was a false clue (and doesn't count towards the score) (my missing one was actually a tiny but easy clue i hadn't seen)

― lex pretend, Friday, 12 October 2012 10:11 (8 months ago) Permalink

1 month passes...

Don't think I've had a morning train that was on time once in the past two weeks.

― stet, Tuesday, 27 November 2012 09:05 (6 months ago) Permalink

In five weeks time, the London Overground goes orbital. The South London link from Surrey Quays to Clapham Junction opens on Sunday 9th December, and suddenly it'll be possible to ride round the capital via only orange trains.

[...]

This creates the tantalising prospect of being able to ride the entire orbital route from Highbury and Islington to Highbury and Islington via Clapham Junction in only two trains. All the most hardcore London train geeks will be doing it, although the rest of you might give it a miss because it is essentially pointless.

http://diamondgeezer.blogspot.co.uk/2012/11/outer-circle.html

― ledge, Thursday, 29 November 2012 10:58 (6 months ago) Permalink

ooh i had no idea about that! i keep ending up having to travel from hackney to clapham junction these days, will prob give the new route a try just for some variety...

― #YOLO ONO (lex pretend), Thursday, 29 November 2012 11:11 (6 months ago) Permalink

The lack of a sensible or easy way to travel from SE to SW London has been a fucking nightmare for so long that I thoroughly approve of this. Shame I don't really have any reason to go to SW London.

― Matt DC, Thursday, 29 November 2012 11:18 (6 months ago) Permalink

There's been a pretty strong influx of 30-something hipsters and/or startup geeks moving to the Brockley-Honor Oak-Forest Hill axis since the orange line opened up, guess they'll start migrating west now as well.

― Matt DC, Thursday, 29 November 2012 11:22 (6 months ago) Permalink

This gives me an alternative route to work (I work nearish Clapham Junction) but this new train takes longer than just staying on the Victoria line to Vauxhall and getting a train to Clapham Junction from there unfortunately.

― Just noise and screaming and no musical value at all. (Colonel Poo), Thursday, 29 November 2012 11:50 (6 months ago) Permalink

Alternatives are great news though, right?

This is good news for me in so far as it will enable easy getting back to Peckham when I'm coming back into London on the slow line from the South West.

A likely decrease in trains to Victoria (where I work these days) is probably bad news.

But alternatives! Good!

― Tim, Thursday, 29 November 2012 11:53 (6 months ago) Permalink

Dunno, they seem to love redirecting trains to Victoria and there'll probably be even more of that when the really hardcore work at London Bridge gets going.

Yer commute may be slower on the overground but it might be more bearable, although the great thing about alternative routes is that they take the pressure off the main one.

― Matt DC, Thursday, 29 November 2012 11:56 (6 months ago) Permalink

What will make a huge difference to my commute will be the extension of the Northern line to Battersea, but that's not going to be done for 4 years so I probably won't be working here then.

― Just noise and screaming and no musical value at all. (Colonel Poo), Thursday, 29 November 2012 11:57 (6 months ago) Permalink

Commuting via Victoria line is totally fine for me cos I live at the end of it = virtually guaranteed seat unless I'm running v late.

― Just noise and screaming and no musical value at all. (Colonel Poo), Thursday, 29 November 2012 11:58 (6 months ago) Permalink

This makes it a single train commute for me, which is great, but pisser about losing the direct Victoria trains (especially at weekends, when there seem to be none).

― stet, Thursday, 29 November 2012 12:20 (6 months ago) Permalink

I had no idea that the inner loop (South London line) from Victoria to London Bridge was closing. Bit of a pain for regular users of Wandsworth Rd and Clapham High St. Also, the once-a-day parliamentary train that runs up to Kensington Olympia is finally being withdrawn from those stations too.

I've now downloaded a spreadsheet of station usage. Someone stop me.

― Michael Jones, Thursday, 29 November 2012 12:40 (6 months ago) Permalink

Peckham Rye gets more than Aberdeen!

― stet, Thursday, 29 November 2012 12:44 (6 months ago) Permalink

I'm assuming the closure of that inner loop means fewer trains from London Bridge down to Crystal Palace (and beyond) as well? That's going to fuck up my commute if so.

― Matt DC, Thursday, 29 November 2012 12:49 (6 months ago) Permalink

Not sure the inner loop closure will affect LB-CP, and there's no increased capacity on the stretch south of New Cross (as there was when the original extension came into service), so it should be OK. When Overground services first started between Palace/West Croydon and Dalston, there was a reduction of trains in/out of London Bridge along the Forest Hill/Sydenham line, leading to the dreaded 25min hole in southbound rush hour services from LB which I still occasionally find myself falling into.

― Michael Jones, Thursday, 29 November 2012 13:02 (6 months ago) Permalink

Yeah I got my loops mixed up, this is the one that goes through South Bermondsey and Peckham Rye and places, right?

― Matt DC, Thursday, 29 November 2012 13:26 (6 months ago) Permalink

The wikipedia journey starting at Parliamentary trains is fab. Eg: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gainsborough_Central_railway_station - managed to have fewer passengers than a station which was closed and had no tracks.

― stet, Thursday, 29 November 2012 14:34 (6 months ago) Permalink

We followed the same route, Stet!

MDC: yep.

― Michael Jones, Thursday, 29 November 2012 14:38 (6 months ago) Permalink

Anyone else get caught out by the arriva bus strike this morning?

― sktsh, Thursday, 29 November 2012 15:42 (6 months ago) Permalink

the extension of the Northern line to Battersea

I had no idea this was even being considered

― all the people on the right, boogaloo (Nasty, Brutish & Short), Thursday, 29 November 2012 16:29 (6 months ago) Permalink

I thought I had escaped bus strike troubles, but then I waited 25 minutes for my bus only for it to drive past me. RIP evening plans.

― Shane Richie Junior (Merdeyeux), Thursday, 29 November 2012 17:37 (6 months ago) Permalink

Ah, this explains why somebody who was supposed to meet me this morning waited 50 minutes for a bus which never came. I thought he was exaggerating.

― all the people on the right, boogaloo (Nasty, Brutish & Short), Thursday, 29 November 2012 17:52 (6 months ago) Permalink

2 months pass...

again with my annual commute i find myself asking how this shit is acceptable or even possible

clapham junction to high st kensington - FOUR stops - has just taken me 70 MINUTES

i stayed in battersea to make the commute easier and it would have taken less time to do it from hackney FFS

― lex pretend, Thursday, 7 February 2013 10:48 (4 months ago) Permalink

i've heard many reports that the new southern overground line is a bit of a shambles, journeys involving it invariably taking 30 mins longer than they should and such.

― hot young stalin (Merdeyeux), Thursday, 7 February 2013 10:51 (4 months ago) Permalink

also, inexplicably doesn't allow you to indicate that you're avoiding zone 1 by using it.

― hot young stalin (Merdeyeux), Thursday, 7 February 2013 10:52 (4 months ago) Permalink

oh you motherfucker

victoria station is where the party is right now

― imago, Thursday, 7 February 2013 11:27 (4 months ago) Permalink

Overground has been punctual whenever I've used it, which has only been in extremis because the thousands of stops make it too damn slow and infrequent even if it's on time.

― stet, Thursday, 7 February 2013 12:14 (4 months ago) Permalink

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