Cuba: Here we go again?

(What were they thinking, putting pigs in a bay. Everyone knows pigs can't swim, and pork is better with Thyme).

or the arrival of III?

Like a shameless politician is a new thing?

right. because there's nothing particularly shameless about this administration. and lets give up on the country, the economy, the world, etc.

Why dont we just invade cuba and get it over with. Something to tell the grandkids about.

We also need to pre-empt any red dawn-like scenarios.

Still celebrating crushing Hussein, ain't they? But it will be summat to tell the great grandkids about.

The Associated Press @AP
BREAKING: US officials: US to start talks with Cuba to normalize full diplomatic relations, open embassy.

good idea, this will take two years

Surely this is Obama flipping Putin the finger?

is Putin doing all that much for the Castros these days?

more like Obama wanting to do one more obv positive thing while he's still breathing

Yeah I agree with the latter, the former is probably just a nice bonus.

yeah I think this is more of a bucket list kind of move

http://www.vox.com/2014/12/17/7408067/cuba-deal-obama-embargo-alan-gross

CNN reports that the new rules still won't permit American tourism, but will make it easier to visit for other purposes.

wtf... but good, we won't do our kind of ruination quite yet.

Bob Menendez (D-NJ), such a shit:

"President Obama's actions have vindicated the brutal behavior of the Cuban government," he said in a statement. "There is no equivalence between an international aid worker and convicted spies who were found guilty of conspiracy to commit espionage against our nation. One spy was also convicted of conspiracy to murder for his role in the 1996 tragedy in which the Cuban military shot down two U.S. civilian planes, killing several American citizens. My heart goes out to the American families that lost love ones on that fateful day."

“Trading Mr. Gross for three convicted criminals sets an extremely dangerous precedent," he added. "It invites dictatorial and rogue regimes to use Americans serving overseas as bargaining chips. I fear that today’s actions will put at risk the thousands of Americans that work overseas to support civil society, advocate for access to information, provide humanitarian services, and promote democratic reforms."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/12/17/bob-menendez-marco-rubio-obama-cuba_n_6340906.html

It frustrates me that whether it's Barbara Lee or Dennis Kucinich not a single Dem can answer the question from Republicans, "But what about human rights abuses?" with "Human rights abuses in China and Vietnam don't trouble us; I see no reason to worry about Cuba's."

Human rights abuses in America don't bother us, so

sit down lindz

https://twitter.com/GrahamBlog/status/545268810815905792

In his statement Obama claimed that Gross was released by the Cubans on "humanitarian grounds" and at least tried to imply that the appeals of Francis had some effect. The three Cuban agents were released in exchange for an unnamed American spy held there, who (if I heard this right) was responsible for nabbing the three agents in the first place.

Americans are pretty stupid about international stuff, but I find it hard for anyone other than the most hardened obama hater to think being nicer to cuba is an awful thing.

turn on FOX News now.

thot fox was the official news source of hardened obama haters worldwide

I need to get back there before Disney

Well, this will surely complicate the GOP's strenuous and sincere attempt to court Hispanics.

how so

he just secured the Cuban vote after 2012's promising first step.

I thought all the angry old cubans were the ones who wanted the embargo in the first place

or are they all dying off

sorry if I'm being obtuse, the intricacies of Cuban-American voting bloc politics sort of mystify me

We've been doing business with the Chinese Communist party for decades now, to the tune of hundreds of billions of dollars. One must ask oneself, wtf is so special about Cuba that we can't do a dime's worth of business there?

the young ones and those who've benefited from the loosening of remittance limits and travel restrictions in the last five years

our next presidential aspirant, English collapsing:

"My understanding is that the influence that His Holiness had was on the release of Mr. [Alan] Gross, which I've not criticized. As I said, I'm happy that he's with the Cuban people [sic]. I would also ask His Holiness to take up the cause of freedom and democracy, which is critical for a free people — for a people to truly be free," Rubio, a Catholic whose parents immigrated from Cuba to flee the Castro regime, told reporters.

"I think the people of Cuba deserve the same chances to have democracy as the people of Argentina have had, where he comes from; as the people of Italy have, where he now lives. Obviously the Vatican's its own state, but very nearby," the senator and rumored 2016 presidential hopeful continued.

We've been doing business with the Chinese Communist party for decades now, to the tune of hundreds of billions of dollars. One must ask oneself, wtf is so special about Cuba that we can't do a dime's worth of business there?

The Cuban exile community's once wizardly sway over Congress and the White House? It's not hard.

last sentence of Rubio's is really a beauty

plus, our history with Cuba is more tangled than any country not named England. Jefferson wanted it. Southern Congressman forty years later sought to make a slave state out of it. We got sugar, rum, the best beaches in the Caribbean, baseball players, cigars, Watergate burglars, and George W. Bush out of it.

Shit, we've even normalized relations with the butchers in Myanmar, fer chrissakes.

"...as the people of Italy have, where he now lives. Obviously the Vatican's its own state, but very nearby," the senator and rumored 2016 presidential hopeful continued.

lmao really putting the knife in. who's the writer here? I can't get that quote to come up on google

man, wait til the Pope announces he's moving the Vatican to Pinar del Rio

I hear the beaches are especially beautiful.

I believe it's where I saw a rooster mascot do what looked like a Santeria dance around home plate.

http://www.que.es/archivos/201111/4219565w-640x640x80.jpg

the young ones and those who've benefited from the loosening of remittance limits and travel restrictions in the last five years

― guess that bundt gettin eaten (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, December 17, 2014

younger cubans really support liberalizing US-Cuban relations? not doubting it so much as observing how behind-the-times i must be.

oh yeah -- the older ones too. The women who clean my grandmother's and take care of her are my mom's age. Most people who came after Helms-Burton support normalizing relations.

plus, our history with Cuba is more tangled than any country not named England. Jefferson wanted it. Southern Congressman forty years later sought to make a slave state out of it. We got sugar, rum, the best beaches in the Caribbean, baseball players, cigars, Watergate burglars, and George W. Bush out of it.

― guess that bundt gettin eaten (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, December 17, 2014 1:41 PM (43 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

That's real nice for Canada.

why didn't we recruit a burglar from Canada?

I'm glad I've been to Cuba multiple times before the Starbucks and whatnot. I wish there was a middle ground between people having basic freedoms and not being rampaged by lots of Wal Marts.

Can anyone link to anything genuinely interesting/informative about what Gross was actually doing there and whether there was actually any basis for his arrest?

seeing all this preemptive righteous anticommercialism is nauseating

Shepard Smith, who worked in Miami and Naples for years, is practically trembling with excitement. He also repeated the cliche regarding the definition of insanity -- that's how FOX can claim it's Fair and Balanced.

how soon till i can get some havana club on the reg?

haha. why's shep "trembling with excitement," e.g., the opportunity to pander to a well-known fox-leaning demographic?

http://www.nj.com/politics/index.ssf/2014/12/authorities_hope_thaw_in_cuban_relations_will_aid_capture_of_nj_cop_killer_joanne_chesimard.html

My thoughts on the matter.

Very happy, and poised for a comeback.

http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100426143902/godfather/images/7/74/Vlcsnap-2010-02-25-19h21m17s23.png

My thoughts on the matter.

― guess that bundt gettin eaten (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, December 17, 2014 9:09 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

that is a moving and smart piece of writing, Alfred.

"...as the people of Italy have, where he now lives. Obviously the Vatican's its own state, but very nearby," the senator and rumored 2016 presidential hopeful continued.

i imagine rubio continuing to ramble in this circumlocutions manner for minutes as the media and then his staffers leave one by one and finally a janitor comes by and turns the lights off. "…i mean, you know, the vatican isn't really a democracy either, but uh, pope francis should know, uh, I mean, that democracies are all around, and…"

that is a moving and smart piece of writing, Alfred.

― Vic Perry,

thanks, Vic!

My thoughts on the matter.

― guess that bundt gettin eaten (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, December 17, 2014 9:09 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

that is a moving and smart piece of writing, Alfred.

― Vic Perry, Wednesday, December 17, 2014 11:35 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

agreed Alfred, enjoyed that post a lot

since the tourism ban can only be lifted by Congress, we can expect to see that go in...?

sadly we'll always have Congress, Morbs.

I would suggest you all become humanitarians or educators if you want to go, meantime.

Essay on TPM:

It happens pretty much every time I meet someone new and they find out I’m Cuban. Have you been? is usually their first question—generally just a way to attempt a polite transition to their own inevitable Cuba visit story. I brace myself for these stories, plaster a polite smile on my face, and try to change the subject as quickly as possible. Many of them come with a sentiment similar to Jeremy Scahill’s tweet yesterday—a kind of perverse, nostalgic desire to witness things “before they change.” I can’t keep track of the number of times someone has recounted this sentiment to me. Last year, it happened at a week-long training I was participating in, and it was the first time there was another Cuban-American present, with whom I could exchange a weary, knowing glance.

I’m sure there are hundreds (thousands?) of people right now trying to figure out if they can visit Cuba before the inevitable surge of change. Miss seeing the crumbling buildings? The fifties-era cars? The Castro government propaganda? I’ve never understood these sentiments. I find them to be so tone-deaf, like this place that has shaped my entire existence is just a type of disaster tourism, a fun stop on a political nostalgia to-do list. They’re sentiments that gloss over and negate all the suffering and loss that has shaped what Cuba is today.

It gets to the mixed reaction of someone my age hearing about deprivations secondhand yet recoiling from the unintentional crudeness from those who haven't witnessed either.

when I was in Russia right after the wall fell the biggest tourist draws were Soviet memorabilia/buildings etc

Maybe it was partly due to the structure of the group visit I went on, but I'd say you have to be pretty willful, sheltered and/or insensible to overlook the deprivation in Cuba.

I imagine something similar is going to happen here - aw communist dictatorship detritus, ain't it cuet

xp

This triggered her article:

jeremy scahill ✔ @jeremyscahill
Follow

I'm very glad I was able to visit Cuba several times before US tourists try to turn it into Cancun

tbf Cancun is p fucked up

I un-followed Scahill a few years ago after a photo he posted of himself and Fidel inspired commments like "WOW, YOU GO!" and "SO JEALOUS" and "YEAH EL JEFE!"

(I still read his books)

of course for Americans there's no middle ground really between Communist-regime-induced squalor and capitalist-induced-squalor + RESORT LIVING

Communist-regime- and moronic-American-blockade-induced squalor

hey plenty of credit to go around

I did not eat in any of the paladares citizens operated in Havana 10 years ago, but I talked to people (who knew English) in the parks and the streets and usually gave them money when I was panhandled. I think most of the people in our group did the same. I'm sure we all were partly guilty of gringo complicity, but I don't think "disaster tourism" is the sum total of such travel.

Link: http://forums.talkingpointsmemo.com/t/discussion-why-i-don-t-want-to-hear-about-your-nostalgia-tour-through-cuba/14589/30

is there possibly some residual "oh what might have been" leftist nostalgia for the Castro regime at play here? (which was obviously from p early on an unqualified disaster, from a marxist/leftist perspective) Like oh they almost had a socialist paradise, look at how many doctors they turned out etc.

that forum link is ... interesting. I'm not really sympathetic to arguments that American corporate hegemony does a great job of increasing the standard of living wherever it goes tho.

I'm glad she made the point though: you can't find any goddamn clean needles in this socialist paradise.

Other than the tourist sector, which is reasonably mature already, and sugar is there anything particularly notable for US corporate hegemony to influence? It's not as though Cuba is likely to get a massive increase in revenue in the medium term or that the U.S. is the world's sole purveyor of commercial tat.

The questions about how / when the economic system is going to be reformed and who is going to influence that are much more interesting in the post-Eastern Bloc context, but there doesn't seem like a vast amount to build oligarchies out of.

Not that this question is necessarily answerable, plus to make it worse it seems to presume some kind of definite answer where none is possible. Okay, here goes: how is Alejo Carpentier regarded by Cuban-Americans?

Thanks to a tip from Harold Bloom, I discovered his novels about 20 years ago. "Explosion in a Cathedral" is, I'm sure, permanently tied for best novel I will ever read, I am quite sure. Just an unbelievably good book and I don't know one person who has read it, despite or because of my years of nagging (I'm exaggerating....kind of).

I know Carpentier had been imprisoned in the pre-Castro years, and was happy to act as diplomat for Cuba to Paris in the post-Castro years. I could see people doing this kind of "collaborator" thing with him, and with Julio Cortazar (who I also love). Any info on reactions, etc. would be welcome.

unfamiliar w Carpentier myself (my fave Cuban novelist is easily Cabrera-Infante). altho I was unaware there was any connection between Cortazar (who I also love) and Castro...?

Cortazar made a point of defending left-wing regimes in Central & South America (Cuba & the Sandinistas come to mind), although it clearly made him uneasy too.

is the best Cabrera-Infante book Three Trapped Tigers? I was reading a paperback of that about ten years ago and I LOST it.

yeah that's the one imo

Well I need to go get another copy obv.

Don't miss "Explosion in a Cathedral".

this is getting off-topic but this has been on my amazon wishlist forever:
http://lahistoriadeldia.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/fantomas-contra-los-vampiros-multinacionales.jpg

Looks like P-Funk Cortazar! very exciting.

Carpentier's reputation is high. I prefer The Kingdom of this World and press it on anyone who's interested.

"Kingdom" is the most famous one I think, a huge attention getter - and short too, makes an indelible impact quickly. I need to re-read that one.

What interests me about "Explosion" is the ambivalence: the permanent relevance of the interplay between privileged youth & driven ideologues. I was hooked right from that prologue about the first guillotine heading to the New World as a compass, right down to those insane plot developments. But you know, I'm crazy about Stendahl's "Charterhouse of Parma" for the same kind of reasons: that kind of wide scope novel full of insane passions.

Apt comparison.

That Cortazar is lots of daft fun. Fictionalised versions of him and a withering/sexy Susan Sontag and Alberto Moravio and co vs an international conspiracy, inspired by a mad comic book that featured same.

dumb question: does the US embargo stipulate that countries doing business with cuba (say in europe) suffer from any kind of censure from the US? b/c to my understanding most major european countries have some form of trade with cuba.

i have to admit it boggles my mind that not doing business with the united states would hamper a country's economy to the extent that they are lacking in essential medical supplies. though i'm sure the situation is more complex (maybe there's some mismanagement on the part of the cuban gov't as well). i understand how the embargo of iran could hurt its economy because it extends far beyond just limiting trade with a single country, and because a huge chunk of Iran's economy is dependent on one product (oil) that is primarily an export commodity. but i don't know the situation in cuba.

anyway, i wonder how long it'll take congress to get around to lifting the embargo. i imagine it won't take /that/ long, but of course it won't happen while obama is in power.

my partner's dad is a died-in-the-wool castro fan and one of those people who (a) thinks the cuban gov't can do no wrong (i'm not sure what he does with the cognitive dissonance this creates when people bring up their persecution of homosexuals); (b) influx of US money/influence will "ruin" the country. he's a strange mix of very informed (he reads a lot and knows more about cuba than i do, for sure) and oblivious (to anything that might put the castro regime in a bad light).

died/dyed

There are no barrier to European / Chinese trade, as far as i know. Cuba trades freely with other countries (exporting tobacco and sugar and importing most of its food). The GDP per capita is broadly comparable to other countries in the region and higher than Jamaica, for example. It has been heavily reliant on assistance from Venezuela for oil in the past, though, and there's only a limited amount of access to international finance for loans, etc. It has been hit heavily by the economic crisis (particularly the domestic economic crisis in Venezuela) and the variable price for sugar.

Not sure what the medical situation is, other than that it gets a lot of money from medical tourism and that is almost certainly going to lead to a two tier system with gluts and shortages affecting residents more than visitors.

there is about US$400 million exported annually to Cuba (medical and other 'emergency' goods?)

https://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c2390.html

These people are depraved https://t.co/36mBvvBBfJ

— Louis Allday (@Louis_Allday) March 23, 2020

Nasty!

35 Cuban health professionals arriving in St Kitts and Nevis to help it deal with corona. It's not just high profile countries like Italy that Cuba supports, because unlike the cynics say, they send doctors out of a sense of international solidarity not pr https://t.co/dX821NCXI9

— Louis Allday (@Louis_Allday) March 28, 2020

Some bits on Maradona and Cuba

https://m.thewire.in/article/sport/diego-maradona-social-justice-politics-tribute/amp?

Guardian be doing more propaganda for a nasty regine:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/nov/25/sicily-asks-cuba-to-send-medics-as-italy-fights-second-covid-wave

Some more last minute bullshit:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jan/11/cuba-us-sponsor-terrorism-blacklist-sanctions-trump

here we go again

can't wait for Pompeo to get the boot

sad trombone

This silver coin commemorating an anticipated (but never realized) Bay of Pigs victory features an outline of Cuba with a rebel invader advancing past a fallen member of Castro's military in the foreground.#HISTINT #Museum

— CIA (@CIA) May 25, 2021

seems president libtrump is extremely cool with continuing to fuck over cuba despite everything he said before, i would be surprised but

Cubans chant "I am Fidel!", as thousands flood the streets in defense of the revolution. pic.twitter.com/dAqyPRiYm2

— Kawsachun News (@KawsachunNews) July 12, 2021

in support of the Cuban government? Now? lol

Yes - end the blockade

Maybe they get a roll of toilet paper for participating

there are plenty of pro-government cubans in cuba.

these are government-ordained counter-protests to the actual protesters (or “worms” in government parlance)

"End the embargo" of course, and I endorse it. "End this oligarchical system which can't even use its excellent doctors to care for its citizens" I endorse too. But I'm keeping quiet about it because American intervention (ain't happening) and a military coup d'etat (ugh) would be calamitous too.

actual protesters

imagine a country where people acted against their obvious best interests, protesting in support of an authoritarian govt that did a terrible job handling covid, without being coerced. cant think of any recent examples.

oh I suspect American intervention is already happening

Joe Biden would never…

watching WH comms debase themselves getting right in line w the likes of Cruz & Rubio (and worse) just gives the game away. It may be years before the extent to which our assets/ proxies are involved come to light, but just as the sun rises in the East…

(and RIP to Obama’s approach w both Iran and Cuba—imo two of the unequivocally good and mildly surprising things to come from from his 2 terms)

The U.S. Coast Guard is monitoring boats heading to Cuba and possibly bringing weapons

I'm not sure what American policy should be now tbh.

Watching each side revert to the received opinions is tiresome, sez this eftist Cuban-American poster in Miami.

I'm conflicted and should not be clicking on this thread.

*left

My name is Juan CubanLastName33883837. My country Cuba not enough Freedom please invade killing up to 20% of population. PLEASE sell exclusive right to mine nickel and manganese to American corparation!

— derek (@derek8185338005) July 12, 2021

I'm not sure what American policy should be now tbh.

Watching each side revert to the received opinions is tiresome

What has changed that anyone's opinions would have? We're in the seventh decade of a covert war on Cuba, American media blanketing the airwaves with coverage of 'anti-regime protests' is as suspicious in 2021 as it would have been in 1991 or 1971.

Mm you don't say!

This ain't about America anymore.

Every major highway in Miami is shut down, so this shit has moved beyond received opinions. My family has been the victims of American perfidy for six decades. I'm trying to block out Trumpist bulllshit triumphalism while accepting how deeply this regime has failed my remaining relatives.

Sounds like Cubans are due for free elections.

Fuck pic.twitter.com/hEtnGGsIhL

— L Ron Mexico (@LRonMexico) July 13, 2021

lol I don’t know what’s real or not but I’m just imagining it’s 1989 and we’re having this conversation about Eastern Europe. “American media is blanketing us with suspicious coverage of alleged “protests” in Prague don’t fall for it stay strong defend the revolution, Havel is CIA.”

Yes yes very comparable situation to the US and Cuba (or US and anywhere in Central or South America).

Monroe Doctrine innit

When Amnesty International writes an article about Cuban protest, little do you know the CIA is behind it.

Black Lives Matter has released a statement on Cuba: pic.twitter.com/NgnT1o1oZE

— Sabrina Rodríguez (@sabrod123) July 15, 2021

Yes, it's hideous considering the number of Afro-Cubans protesting of the island

Terrible politics for leftists and Miami Dems who've been defending BLM since June 2020.

Lack of syringes is the big problem at the moment, if anyone want to help: https://ghpartners.org/syringes4cuba/

Wrt to the BLM tweet 'cutting of food' is a bit hyperbolic, in 2020, the US was the third biggest exporter of food to Cuba.

The BLM test is fine, 100%.

Tweet/statement

thx for the link VHS

it would be nice if people didn’t always feel obliged to take one state line or another. no need to accept the cuban state’s self presentation at face value in order to oppose US imperialism. of course any kind of regime the US would prefer to install would be worse. of course they will want to take advantage of or exacerbate any instability & coopt any dissent regardless of cause or motivation. of course this crisis would not be prominent news in this part of the world if the political leadership was different. of course the framing in western media is going to be utter bullshit. all these things should go without saying but apparently they don’t. that said all cops includes the cuban ones

I’m 21 years old and capitalism has completely imploded twice in my lifetime. https://t.co/CPcyTAEuNH

— Mac 🇵🇸 (@GoodPoliticGuy) July 16, 2021

The BLM test is fine, 100%.

― xyzzzz__, Saturday, July 17, 2021 9:26 AM (three hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

Tweet/statement

― xyzzzz__, Saturday, July 17, 2021

Black Lives Matter But Not In Cuba.

serious question: am I out of line for thinking a lot of this kind of thing is going on?

Just shockingly cruel. This woman came out to protest for her country, for the Revolution, but had her identity stolen *by the UN* and falsely portrayed as an anti-govt protester.

Latin Americans are always silenced if they don't agree with the US. pic.twitter.com/RMjLdnexIx

— Ollie Vargas (@OVargas52) July 17, 2021

A story in three parts: pic.twitter.com/r6bcMJYg8C

— Louis Allday (@Louis_Allday) July 17, 2021

I've read a few accounts on Twitter. I'd likely believe it of the U.S. over the UN.

Protesting for the Revolution in 2021 while your countrymen are arrested and beaten has a Trumpian overtone.

. no need to accept the cuban state’s self presentation at face value in order to oppose US imperialism. of course any kind of regime the US would prefer to install would be worse. of course they will want to take advantage of or exacerbate any instability & coopt any dissent regardless of cause or motivation. of course this crisis would not be prominent news in this part of the world if the political leadership was different.

otm

is that the dude who tweeted in 2019 about Castro, a white man whose governing circle consisted of other white men, sadly shaking his head over racism before 1959

good thread here:

I’m very disappointed that @Blklivesmatter put out such an uninformed statement regarding Cuba…particularly when it silences so many Black Cubans who have been protesting and putting themselves at risk who consider BLM to be part of them and their movement too.

— Danielle Clealand (@ProfClealand) July 15, 2021

the replies to that tweet are...something

along those lines:

https://slate.com/podcasts/a-word/2021/07/race-cuba-afro-cubans-uprising

Black Lives Matter But Not In Cuba.

― So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Saturday, 17 July 2021 bookmarkflaglink

Lift the embargo except #itscomplicated

i'm with Alfred, the tweet was misinformed and largely centered the conversation around the US and ignored the protests on the ground in Cuba and seemed to lionize their government.

you can support lifting the embargo and also acknowledge this. these aren't either-or proposals.

exactly

Glad we all agree part of the solution for Cuba's future is more trade with capitalist economies.

The partial solutions for Cuba's future: lifting the embargo, let the people decide the system under which they wish to live, and read ILX for counsel.

I hope we can all agree that lifting the embargo would be a good thing in general for the people living in Cuba. If or when the Cuban government stands or falls should only become a consideration only after the embargo is gone. Even if you think the Cuban regime is bad and criminal, the fact remains that the embargo hasn't removed it after six decades, so keeping the embargo won't do anything to remove that government; the embargo only inflicts pain and misery on the Cubans to no good end.

Regardless of the embargo, some terrible economic decisions have been made and they have been compounded by the pandemic. And at one point I think it's also important to allow Cubans living on the island to parse terrible economic policies + authoritarian injustices from problems stemming from this horrific embargo. Alfred is obviously otm when he says it's not all about America.

To be clear, the regime was authoritarian regardless of the embargo.

Yes, I meant those are two separate sets of problems.

Glad we all agree part of the solution for Cuba's future is more trade with capitalist economies.

― Van Horn Street, Saturday, 17 July 2021 bookmarkflaglink

It's not the gotcha you think it is

I don’t mean to excuse any particular actions of Castro and his successors, but an authoritarian regime is a pretty logical thing to have if the United States is trying to kill your president and overturn your government. How long would a left-liberal government that implemented radical land reforms and redistribution have lasted? Would the regime that followed be democratic, or non-repressive?

You're right. The embargo has been as much a propaganda triumph for the Castros and successors as for the Cuban AM radio commentariat. It still doesn't justify labor camps, etc.

Sure, there are reasons why the revolutionary Cuban government became so authoritarian. The same was true of the USSR. It's hard to argue that the Russian Federation is objectively better or worse for its people than the USSR was, but at least the present US sanctions against the Russian Federation are better targeted and less harmful than the Cuban embargo. Getting rid of the embargo is a no-brainer, imo.

Russia has taken almost 30 years to get life expectancy back to USSR levels so on one (rather important) measure it's pretty easy to argue it's been worse.

No one with the slightest bit of compassion wants Cuba to become an illiberal oligarchy state like Russia, and the spectrum of the possibility is much wider than what the USSR and the present Russian Federation presents.

The same way there is no excuses for this embargo, there are basically no excuses for authoritarian regimes.

Man, if this is true -

https://www.instagram.com/p/CRYawauDBpS/?fbclid=IwAR0ONtKr7b9xkE23tX47SaSJSzBSOeJtidtFzA_bS2_LGXv6UNmY2EnkxmU

Would be nice to have any sources for what he’s saying.

kinda distrust anyone who needs to emphasize that this definitely has nothing to do with the embargo.

The embargo has existed for a very long time and doesn’t explain the hyperinflation problem Cuba is facing at the moment.

Didn’t Trump recently put new sanctions in place though?

US inflation is above 5% - global shortages are going to impact Cuba much harder thanks to the embargo.

It would help if the govt knew how to deal with a currency, especialy in a world in which tourism has died out.

Heck, Miguel Diaz himself is acknowleding Cuba’s role in the hardships.

So yeah, sure, end the embargo, it sucks, but not everything is about the US, other countries have enough agency to take shitty decision on their own too.

Yes but most other countries haven’t had the most powerful country on earth working to limit their agency for 60 years. Anyway I just have to take with a grain of salt a report on what it’s really like in Cuba that comes from a former investment banker who has never lived there and insists that the embargo has nothing to do with the problems there.

To be fair, trusting ‘a former investment banker’ never seems to be a good idea.

Btw if anyone knows of good sources on the situation in Cuba that are somewhere in between “the poor oppressed people just want freedom in the form of US airstrikes” and “gusano scum get the wall” I’d appreciate it!

Al-Jazeera has been balanced imo

I did notice the gentleman in the link provided by Raymond thought it was an especially telling indictment of Cuba that uneducated people made the same daily wage as educated people.

In a nation that is fated to be poor, both by its lack of resources and by the embargo, the fact that the burden of such poverty is mostly equally shared is no indictment. There clearly are ways in which the powerful can get around this, but it's still FAR more equality of means than in any capitalist nation.

Lack of resources does not fate a nation to poverty, there are many counter examples. Plus Cuba is a large island with fertile soil with access to the sea, agriculture should not be a problem, except it is because command economies keep failing at it, regardless of the region or era.

It's like its impossible to acknowledge that a shitty dictatorial govt that jail dissidents and can't keep currency issues at bay has had a hand in Cuba's poverty.

Naive to think it's resources would've been shared with the poor had it kept being a capitalist country instead of a command economy.

We don't know what the lifting of the embargo would've done for its economy.

Btw if anyone knows of good sources on the situation in Cuba that are somewhere in between “the poor oppressed people just want freedom in the form of US airstrikes” and “gusano scum get the wall” I’d appreciate it!

To understand what's really going on in Cuba right now -- the massive protests across the country -- you have to grasp three things:

(1.) The Leninist government's years-long crisis of legitimacy;

(2.) the causes of recent hyper-inflation;

(3.) the mixed politics of dissidents

— JMC 🌹🏴 (@red_dilettante) July 12, 2021

(thread, has sources)

there are some material specifics there for once which is most welcome

of course the US condemning authoritarianism, jailing (/torture/execution) of dissidents, suppression of "democracy" etc is pretty rich considering, you know

it's a real problem how rote and programmatic the responses have become for these crises - this is not the same as bolivia which is not the same as venezuela despite some similarities but they might as well be identical judging by how most people in the north talk about them, regardless of their political persuasion. not saying I'm not guilty of this either

lol

pic.twitter.com/UXf3UJ592s

— Phil Lord #BlackLivesMatter #StopAsianHate (@philiplord) July 18, 2021

Excellent thread, Left. Thanks.

otm

aren’t you talking about the thread ufo posted?

yeah, ufo, sorry

We stand in solidarity with the Cuban people and condemn the suppression of the media, speech and protest.

We also call for an end to the U.S. embargo and additional Trump-era restrictions that are profoundly contributing to the suffering of Cubans. pic.twitter.com/Fw6Quv5TAN

— Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (@RepAOC) July 16, 2021

^ an unexceptionable statement that sits astride the middle ground, but which the right will call a radical threat to mom, apple pie and baseball

AOC is getting a taste for the bomb.

how did you derive that?

By posting a contrary opinion to xyz of course

Also Canada should do much much more wrt to vaccination in Cuba, considering it has normal trade relations.

https://truthout.org/articles/my-heart-aches-for-cuba-and-i-yearn-for-more-solidarity-from-the-global-left/

"Cuba’s Abdala and Soberana, the first COVID vaccines developed in Latin America, weren’t invented, fabricated and administered by the bureaucrats in the “Palace.” The Cuban people, those that took the streets to change their lives and were repressed by the government, are the ultimate generators of Cuban wealth."

Nonsense. Without the revolution no vaccine would've been developed in Cuba.

anyone who dares to watch could see the patrolling troops running, threatening unarmed people and beating them

Glad that doesn't happen in liberal democracies.

Always love it when Brits take lead on the Convo about what's best for the Cubans. Granted it's not much diff than Americans doing the same. Be nice to hear from...idk...Cuban-Americans.

Twitter is full of ppl talking down to actual non-Revolution Cubans atm

*Cubans or Cuban-Americans

Police brutality is unnaceptable and it must be condemned when it happens everywhere, I don’t see what’s controversial about that.

When it's being raised as a primary reason one must preface any statement with a condemnation of the "shitty dictatorial govt" and that a failure to be sufficiently anti-Cuban state essentially makes you a Stalinist, the universality is quite relevant.

Always love it when Brits take lead on the Convo about what's best for the Cubans. Granted it's not much diff than Americans doing the same. Be nice to hear from...idk...Cuban-Americans.

Because it’s never about Cuba per se, a lot of it is about showing your badges of being a leftist, it’s about showing the world how much outside the narrative and edgy you are.

Showing how edgy I am is really what this thread is about yeah

it’s about showing the world how much outside the narrative and edgy you are.

It seems more likely that in the case of hard leftist ilxors it is a reflection of their true convictions and the ideology they embrace. Whether it is a reflection of the realities of Cuban society and politics is open to question, but there's no need to impugn their motives.

When it's being raised as a primary reason one must preface any statement with a condemnation of the "shitty dictatorial govt" and that a failure to be sufficiently anti-Cuban state essentially makes you a Stalinist, the universality is quite relevant.

― Joe Bombin (milo z), Sunday, July 18, 2021 5:32 PM (five minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

I would suspect that most people on this board who are reacting against police brutality in Cuba also would be against police brutality in the US, pro-BLM and would love for the US prison industrial complex to be dismantled.

It only becomes weird when are you ok with one and not the other.

i mean that double standard goes both ways & the takes from the liberal centre on this have hardly been any less awful than those from the "hard left". and when people have cheered on coups in the past it's hard to trust where their concerns are coming from even when they are valid in a particular instance

But who cares about the US liberal centre's awful takes when Cubans themselves are protesting. Why is it always about western narratives?

Cuban: 'My govt is unable to provide for me and uses police brutality to suppress dissent, I'm fearing for my security'
Non-Cuban on the internet: 'Yeah but life in the west is sorta the same! Gotcha!'

Don't light a cigarette so close to your strawman.

I don't see anyone expressing hostility to protesters... except for people dismissing the possibility of pro-government protesters upthread. (Weird!)

What gets push back from 'the left' is when people like you, openly hostile to Cuba and who've yet to find Latin American regime change they won't cheerlead, decide that they've derived some great meaning from protests they aren't actually involved in, and that great meaning is that the "shitty, dictatorial govt" must be toppled (and that this obviously has mass support among the population). To be suspicious of the roots of protest or to not (again) preface all statements with a blanket condemnation of the Cuban state is obviously unacceptable.

I don't feel like justifying the meaning I find in seeing the end of Latin American dictatorships, nor do I really feel it is necessary to explain why such regimes are bad, or that anyone needs your approval for assessing the wrongs of that particular regime. And I too, shouldn't have too make blanket statements about the evils of the West.

Fact is, an actual Cuban posted an article written by an actual Cuban about the protests and you felt compelled to make it about... police brutality in the West? That's what's unacceptable to me. Either you are a psychopath unable to give the benefit of the doubt to someone with the slightest different world view than yours, or you are suffering from heavy paranoia and decided that any resistance to your ideology has to be a CIA conspiracy. None of these things put the protesters, or the welfare of Cubans at the center of the debate, all agency has been erased, and I'm not saying any of this because we both disagree, but because of how you answered that particular article.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/07/black-lives-matter-misses-point-about-cuba/619471/

Does she "love the bomb"?

I am Black & Cuban and deeply hurt by the #BLM statement on Cuban protests. They are blind and deft to the Cuban ppl, to their demands. With whom is their solidarity? Certainly not with the people in the streets. LISTEN to us. #SOSCuba https://t.co/UHHDngeBWa

— Dr. Odette Casamayor-Cisneros (@odettecasamayor) July 15, 2021

She's from Cuba and wrote the article Alfred said. I'm sure xyzzzz can explain to her why she's wrong

You gotta be suspicious!

The bit I quoted from the Cuban-American academic is clearly wrong. Vaccines aren't just "for the people". The achievement of training Cuban ppl to be doctors and scientists that are able to develop a covid vaccine doesn't come from the sky. No other Latin American country has done this! Without the revolution the island would be Tourism with bits of agriculture. And no one here would bother about whether Afro-Cubans get a fair treatment or human rights.

No one is stopping Alfred, the one Cuban-American in the board I know of, from posting here.

And posts aren't going to stop the Cuban Revolution from either carrying on or unravelling and the US gradually taking over or whatever so I'll carry on.

I don't see anyone expressing hostility to protesters... except for people dismissing the possibility of pro-government protesters upthread. (Weird!)

milo z, if this is directed at me (which I suspect it is): that’s not what I wrote. I wrote this:

these are government-ordained counter-protests to the actual protesters (or “worms” in government parlance)

this was in response to the first post on the current situation, the tweet xyzzzz linked about Cubans chant(ing) "I am Fidel!", as thousands flood the streets in defense of the revolution, without providing any context

what I said was that these counter protests to the actual/original protests were government-ordained...

(to quote the president himself**: « ¡La orden de combate está dada! ¡A la calle los revolucionarios! » / « The order of combat is given! To the streets the revolutionaries! »),

...not that the protesters were forced to participate in them. I’m perfectly aware that most regimes have plenty of virulent supporters, authoritarian ones included.

** https://www.presidencia.gob.cu/es/presidencia/intervenciones/comparecencia-ante-la-television-cubana-11-07-2021/
(hope this source is trustworthy enough for you)

Don't light a cigarette so close to your strawman.

You drew a line between the “actual protesters” (the ones you like) and the counter-protests. The use of actual there implies that the pro-government protesters aren’t real. (there was also the post right above you that loled at the idea of pro-government protesters.)

so nice that we care about human rights violations except when they happen in Cuba, then it's just hysterical misguided people whining. or that we assume people critical of the Cuban government are clamoring for the US to come in and topple them.

xpost he didn't say "to actual protesters", he said "to the actual protesters", clarifying that these protests were a response to the original protest, not something that spontaneously happened on the streets. this isn't hard to understand.

but you're always fishing for gotchas, so you do you I guess.

xyz and milo all think the protests in Cuba are bots and that all protesters are paid though so guess *case closed*

Without the revolution the island would be Tourism with bits of agriculture.

Instead it's tourism... and catastrophic agriculture... and an inability to provide vaccination (it itself developed) to its own citizen because the govt can't deal with basic currency policies. Thank god for Fidel!

Can you point to where I said that?

We'll never know what would have happened without the Castro brothers, but if the history of the region is any indication it wouldn't have been much different.

xyz and milo all think the protests in Cuba are bots and that all protesters are paid though so guess *case closed*

― making splashes at Dan Flashes (Neanderthal), Monday, 19 July 2021 bookmarkflaglink

Does case closed mean you won't be posting again?

Instead it's tourism... and catastrophic agriculture... and an inability to provide vaccination (it itself developed) to its own citizen because the govt can't deal with basic currency policies. Thank god for Fidel!

― Van Horn Street, Monday, 19 July 2021 bookmarkflaglink

This is why lifting the embargo are important.

The embargo doesn’t prevent Cuba from trading with countries that actually produces syringes (Germany, Japan, South Korea). Nor does it prevent Cuba from importing medical devices from the US itself (since 2000). The embargo obviously must be lifted, for a whole bunch of reasons. The reason why Cuban are lacking in vaccination rates despite an exceptional medical tradition has more to do with incompetent officials who want to score propaganda points and triggered an obvious hyperinflation.

Xyzz, are the protestors CIA plants?

Let me avoid confrontation: what motivated last week's protests?

I haven’t said a thing about paid protesters, I’ve said I’m suspicious of the American media narrative and the meaning liberal interventionists have derived from the very possibility of protests and that I don’t believe we can draw meaning from them.

Why would I be suspicious or skeptical at all, as neanderthal has tut-tutted about? We’ve routinely astroturfed protest in states we’re hostile toward. (for instance, in Cuba itself - https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/11/cuban-hip-hop-scene-infiltrated-us-information-youth)

You drew a line between the “actual protesters” (the ones you like) and the counter-protests.

My partner is Cuban (and most definitely non-American! Now living in Scotland, previously in Spain, and in Cuba until she was a teenager, and part of her family, including some she is close to, still live there). She'll never post on ilx though, I'm afraid, and I struggle to express my own views coherently, let alone hers. I've been passing many of the links on though, thanks for those.

Jaruzelski had to do what he had to do, US hands off Poland!

Xyzz, are the protestors CIA plants?

― So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 19 July 2021 bookmarkflaglink

Lol.

That thread ufo linked is a nice enough analysis but it's an analysis. At the end of it:

So whose line will win out? That's a question that becomes especially vexing when you add back in the other actors: the Cuban neoliberals, the Cuban far right, the Miami exiles, and the security services of Cuba and the US.

— JMC 🌹🏴 (@red_dilettante) July 13, 2021

If the old lennists go it's a good chance the people you all care about won't get the chance to decide on anything. But at least lifting the embargo without any interference from white ppl, as well as Cuban Americans who don't live there, is a start. This is the thing that won't happen either, but it would allow for a better chance of survival to those that most need it in the first place.

How hard is it to imagine that one could be critical of the present govt but also wants the embargo lifted and want the Cuban people to determinate their political future without foreign intervention? Like does it actually hurt you to admit people can think outside some either/or narrative presented by political leaders? Or are you just going to continue assuming that Cuban writers and Cuban posters in this thread don’t know or even want what’s best for their nation and family?

President Joe Biden on Thursday plans to slap targeted individual sanctions on Cuba regime officials, bucking the progressive voices in his own party who called for an end to the embargo.

Biden’s response to Cuba — which also includes measures to bring increased internet access to the island and calls for more international pressure on the totalitarian government — was outlined Wednesday night in a call with Democratic Cuban-American activists in Miami who had been calling for more action ever since the July 11 uprisings on the island.

But it’s the proposal to extend the targeted sanctions of the Magnitsky Act, originally passed in response to Russian government oppression and then extended to governments such as Venezuela, that has most encouraged activists who want more pressure on Cuba.

“This is huge,” said Sasha Tirador, a top Miami political operative who was briefed on the plans Wednesday night.

“No administration has ever announced that they will hold each individual who violates human rights on the island of Cuba accountable,” she said.

https://www.politico.com/news/2021/07/22/biden-sanctions-cuba-500534

I'm not sure how I'm supposed to respond tbh

🇨🇺 Let Cuba Live! Over 400 politicians, intellectuals, clergy, artists, activists & ex-heads of state call Biden to immediately lift Trump's 243 sanctions on Cuba.
Full page ad in the NYT tomorrow @answercoalition @codepink

Visit https://t.co/jQTKHAcwQ1 to sign the petition. pic.twitter.com/4X068AgqzL

— The People's Forum (@PeoplesForumNYC) July 22, 2021

Like does it actually hurt you to admit people can think outside some either/or narrative presented by political leaders? Or are you just going to continue assuming that Cuban writers and Cuban posters in this thread don’t know or even want what’s best for their nation and family?

― Van Horn Street, Tuesday, 20 July 2021 bookmarkflaglink

You can make up as many narratives you like but it isn't about narratives. Do you want the current leadership to go, is the question. What happens then? And who is going to get involved in those decisions? Give what we've seen in Bolivia, Brazil, Venezuela in the last few years.

You've not been shy in talking out of arsehole about any of these countries so don't tell what I can or can't say.

Yes the current leadership has to go. Anyone who considers otherwise cares very little for democracy and human rights.

And who is going to get involved in those decisions?

Cubans? Is it hard to imagine that Cubans would be able to build a democracy if given the chance? And sure some Cubans who are more right wing will be given a larger voice than before but hey, in life it happens that people disagree with you on some matters and despite that they should have a voice too.

By the way, I don’t see a problem with what happened in Bolivia since the people have clearly and democratically elected the leader and party of their choice. Same as Peru. Same as Mexico. Same as Panama. And allow me to remind you that the US does exercise economic and political pressure on these nations too.

But if you think Maduro is the ideal for the future of latin american politics and that he should stay put, you care more about your ideology than actual human lives.

'but hey' if Cuba is turned into a backwater ruthlessly ruled by gusanos and Afro-Cubans get nothing then so what?

Lol liberals and their 'human rights'.

Cuba is a backwater ruthlessly ruled by white authoritarians.

Backwaters don't produce covid vaccines.

Just go there and talk to people.

yeah I suppose that could count as "importation of information" or maybe "professional research"

Been going to classes and practicing yoga for nearly a decade, will start yelling about the benefits of Chakras to troll ppl.

My friend wrote this:

https://www.orlandosentinel.com/opinion/guest-commentary/os-op-cuba-protests-pay-attention-20210722-53kjtzv2izab5gxe6zagidqany-story.html

Liberal!

Unfortunately, our website is currently unavailable in your country. We are engaged on the issue and committed to looking at options that support our full range of digital offerings to your market. We continue to identify technical compliance solutions that will provide all readers with our award-winning journalism.

lift the embargo!

By the way, I don’t see a problem with what happened in Bolivia since the people have clearly and democratically elected the leader and party of their choice.

Ok, if Trump had stayed in power citing false claims of voter fraud, and there were massive protests resulting in dozens of people getting killed, and he finally agreed to new elections and left office in 2022, would you say the same thing? (It’s not a perfect analogy, Anez wasn’t even the choice of a sizable minority.)

Trump even developed a vaccine, see

No the whole situation is so vastly different and so any analogy is useless. Especially since Anez made it clear there would be new elections, that she acted in an interim capacity, and that she and her party kept her word on that. Especially since Anez worked in concert with the opposition party to ensure fair and sound elections. Plus you did not mention the abuse of Morales presenting himself for elections despite losing a referendum to allow limitless terms. Plus Anez would have not gotten the role if MAS didn’t just allow her (a qorum would have been enough to stop her ascending, considering MAS had a big majority of seats, but they did not participate). Plus the unions, usually very left leaning, also called for Morales resignation. None of that could be mapped into American politics.

And also, the point remains: Cubans have a right to free and fair elections, untainted from any foreign influence.

xp

Didn't she claim that she wouldn't run in the new elections, then announce her candidacy anyway, repeatedly postpone the elections, and then only end her candidacy to try to defeat the MAS candidate? And yes, Morales's actions were questionable, but he did win the election, and the evidence of widespread fraud turned out to be false. And you didn't say anything about the dozens of people killed.

Regarding MAS "allowing her": The MAS delegation argued that the parliamentary session's first obligation was to elect its own new leaders (including replacing Salvatierra as president of the Senate), prior to replacing Morales.[45] It declared the session and its vote for Áñez's succession illegal.

And who is going to get involved in those decisions?

Cubans? Is it hard to imagine that Cubans would be able to build a democracy if given the chance?

"If given the chance" doing Sisyphean work there. If you believe the US wouldn't interfere (to the detriment of the Cuban people), you most likely also believe in Santa Claus.

If the western hemisphere's imperial hegemon can go five years without sponsoring a right-wing coup, we can start talking about states being "given a chance" at democracy and self-determination.

Because that govt indeed killed people, but I just don’t see how it relates to a hypothetical involving american politics. Also,a year of interim is pretty fast considering the pandemic situation that developped. Also, I don’t remember Anez making such a promise (but I might be wrong!). It remains that in 2020, the Bolivians chose a governement to their liking and that it worked, and I don’t understand why Cubans shouldn’t be allowed the same democratic exercice.

If anything the Bolivian experience should make a pretty good case that latin americans are able to stick to their principles and autonomy despite foreign interference or the existence of right wing politics.

wasbappin's blog never fails to deliver pic.twitter.com/5PDnPMPOID

— pez (@periuspb) July 24, 2021

Let’s keep the dictatorship for another 60 years because we couldn’t possibly risk the greatest threat of all … US influence.

Has this present US administration opposed the elections of Castillo and Cortizo?

I just find it kind of astonishing to say "I don't see a problem" given that there was a year of anti-democratic rule and brutal treatment of protesters, precipitated by a false narrative of a stolen election. I'm glad that the elections happened and that democracy still seems to function there, but I don't really see it as a reason to think that things will be just fine everywhere.

the greatest threat of all … US influence.

You're so close to getting it.

Morales was as much part of the anti-democratic situation as he clearly overstayed his welcome, and it’s no wonder MAS has clearly distanced itself from Morales since.

But yeah now it’s been many decades of anti-democratic rule, brutal treatment of protestors and false narratives for Cubans, but yes sure, it’s that status quo they want instead of … being able to do like Bolivians in reasserting their autonomy.

You're so close to getting it.

― Joe Bombin (milo z), Saturday, July 24, 2021 5:37 PM (nine minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

It will forever astonish me that people would choose Tiannemen Square over Lee Teng-hui, East Germany over West Germany, Soviet Estonia over Finland.

The guy who won the democratic election is as much a part of the anti-democratic situation as the unelected president from the party with single-digit support who presided over the deaths of dozens of protesters?

Despite the fact that he should have not been able to present himself in the first place? Yeah. Seems like abuse to me; which is why lots of left leaning group just abandonning him and decided to trust a OAS report with errors over anything and still to this day don’t care much for the dude.

It will forever astonish me that people would choose Tiannemen Square over Lee Teng-hui, East Germany over West Germany, Soviet Estonia over Finland.

Wouldn't a better analogy, one that's in this hemisphere and not eligible for social security be Colombia and Cuba, today?

Alright, so we just need to allow the Cuban people to have their voices heard, but when the Bolivian people vote to give a guy you don't like another term, it's totally fine to ignore their voices and depose him based on false information.

"Let’s keep the dictatorship for another 60 years because we couldn’t possibly risk the greatest threat of all … US influence."

Nobody is saying this. If the US care about Cubans they should lift the sanctions they've kept for decades and leave Cubans and their administration to it.

Wouldn't a better analogy, one that's in this hemisphere and not eligible for social security be Colombia and Cuba, today?

― Joe Bombin (milo z), Saturday, July 24, 2021 6:11 PM (forty-eight minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Colombia has a better health care system than both Cuba and the US per the WHO. Colombia’s social expenditure is also pretty good, higher than South Korea and about the same as Ireland. I don’t know what you are talking about.

...

I have no idea what milo z and xyyz want

I don't think it's necessary to want anything, aside from an end to the embargo (and American imperialism). Interventionists like VHS's fantasy of Cuban autonomy after their desired regime change is risible because of the dishonesty.

So now ‘untainted from any foreign influence’ is interventionism?

y'all enjoy going in circles?

cos it makes for really shitting reading

*shitty

So now ‘untainted from any foreign influence’ is interventionism?

No, it's just a fantasy. (Or, more accurately, dishonesty.)

I have no idea what milo z and xyyz want

― So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Saturday, 24 July 2021 bookmarkflaglink

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lD8Cz2HOlEc

Today, we are imposing further sanctions against the Cuban police following their attacks on protestors, including young people, religious leaders, and civil society organizations. We will continue to promote accountability for the Cuban regime’s human rights abuses.

— Secretary Antony Blinken (@SecBlinken) July 30, 2021

https://t.co/3e23O3AiCo pic.twitter.com/HglTVz123p

— by mennen (@ClassHuggle) August 1, 2021

Lmao we're so fucked https://t.co/VqL8BvRvNR

— Lisa and the banned one (@LisaA311) July 31, 2021

if it wasn’t for Fidel these whiteboys would be owning mansions in Havana rn, shouts out Fidel https://t.co/YvHU0KFBSZ pic.twitter.com/lBHyAnkbIF

— SLANK (@DabSquad_Slank) September 12, 2021