David Thomson: Classic or Well-dressed?

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And in how many of his documentary appearances do you think he has been both?

naked as sin (naked as sin), Friday, 7 November 2003 16:50 (twenty years ago) link

Oh, several. And he's often both, to my mind. Even if he loves Saving Private Ryan.

@d@ml (nordicskilla), Friday, 7 November 2003 16:55 (twenty years ago) link

very classic. he is one of the many chicken littles of the film critic world but at least that means he cares.

ryan (ryan), Friday, 7 November 2003 19:41 (twenty years ago) link

like I said on another thread I had the opportunity to have lunch with mr. thomson a few months ago... he was a charming, very generous and interested man. I like his criticism a lot (I was intending on starting a "biographical dictionary" thread any day now)

s1utsky (slutsky), Friday, 7 November 2003 19:57 (twenty years ago) link

that book is my current bathroom reading

ryan (ryan), Friday, 7 November 2003 20:00 (twenty years ago) link

s1utsky, by wot means did that occur if yuh don't mind my askin?

naked as sin (naked as sin), Friday, 7 November 2003 22:30 (twenty years ago) link

I went to a reading/signing he was doing--it was really small and informal and he asked most of the questions, really curious about the movies we liked and movie culture in our city... afterwards we ran after him and asked him out for lunch--not only did he accept but he ending up picking up the bill too! great guy!

s1utsky (slutsky), Friday, 7 November 2003 23:17 (twenty years ago) link

The Biographical Dictionary is at the top of my Chanukah list.

@d@ml (nordicskilla), Friday, 7 November 2003 23:47 (twenty years ago) link

one month passes...
http://www.sensesofcinema.com/contents/03/28/david_thomson.html

cozen¡ (Cozen), Tuesday, 30 December 2003 00:13 (twenty years ago) link

The next update will be the American paperback, set to appear in the autumn of 2004 (I hope it will be out here at the same time). Already, that edition is allowing room for 15 or 20 new entries - a chance to fill in some holes noted by critics, and to surprise others with holes they never noticed before. So I'm working on Wong Kar-Wai, Larry Clarke and Michael Moore (scandalous omissions!), but I've realised that Lew Wasserman, the agent who came to be the owner of Universal, has never been in the book. At more than a thousand pages, it will always have holes.

DT, Grauniad, last weekend

Well, bugger that. I got my hbk free, but I dunno if I can blag new pbks in two editions. His new entries are 'minimal' anyway (ie one Kiarostami film) so I'd just leave it.

I'd like to see his entry on Wasserman, having said that, but you just know he cares more about that than about the challenge of WKW. Maybe he could give Moodysson the kicking he deserves.

Enrique (Enrique), Tuesday, 6 January 2004 13:21 (twenty years ago) link

five months pass...
http://enjoyment.independent.co.uk/film/features/story.jsp?story=530095

DT decides to give the Coens a scrub-down. Typical bein-pensant Indy stuff. I guess DT was a major writer for me when I was just getting into films -- but now I can't bear to read him. It isn't at all that his stuff's too personal, it's that he is actually a typical English middlebrow in disguise, scared of new experiences, and with this absurd idea of in-the-moment inspiration: Kubrick is dud because he 'preconceives', Renoir is classic because he captures living moments.

Well, TS Kubrick vs Renoir belongs elsewhere, but the sterility of acting in SK is obviously deliberate -- as is the 'warmth' in JR. And JR very closely scripted and planned his stuff, as all commercial operators must.

Anyway, someone remind me what was so great about Thomson.

Enrique (Enrique), Monday, 14 June 2004 09:35 (nineteen years ago) link

part of what's so remarkable and odd about david thomson's writing is that it seems as if he's put a lot of thought into every single statement (that regal tone, all those grand rhetorical questions), and yet there's quite a few entries in that biographical dictionary where i could swear he just sat down and typed without thinking, kerouac-style.

i'm thinking especially of his entry on charlie chaplin, where halfway through he says, out of nowhere, something like "really, was chaplin so different from hitler?"

J.D. (Justyn Dillingham), Monday, 14 June 2004 09:48 (nineteen years ago) link

hahaha! brilliant. also the fucking wes anderson one. literally his ed must have been like--'this tenenbaum guy, whaddaya think? we go to press in five minutes thx bye'.

Enrique (Enrique), Monday, 14 June 2004 09:50 (nineteen years ago) link

i love that about the biographical dictionary, it's what makes it interesting i think.

anyway i read the coen bros takedown piece, which was sadly not the coen bros critique i wanted from david thomson.

(and honestly speaking of middlebrow aren't the coens pretty much as mb as they come these days? i mean talki about being scared of new experiences!)

(or maybe they're just totally boring)

s1ocki (slutsky), Monday, 14 June 2004 11:01 (nineteen years ago) link

otm about the wes anderson one tho!

s1ocki (slutsky), Monday, 14 June 2004 11:02 (nineteen years ago) link

DT's off the cuffness is good?

the pinefox, Monday, 14 June 2004 14:26 (nineteen years ago) link

Varies. A good quality in a blogger is a less good quality in an author who has become an authority and is quoted by lots of ppl. Whether that's all his fault is another story.

Enrique (Enrique), Monday, 14 June 2004 14:29 (nineteen years ago) link

I don't know of another 'middlebrow' film critic who likes Rivette, Warhol, Cronenberg AND the 1976 King Kong remake.

Andrew L (Andrew L), Monday, 14 June 2004 15:15 (nineteen years ago) link

so he has a responsibility to change his writing style because he's quoted by lots of people? i dunno about that! i mean the surprise factor is really what makes the dictionary fun for me, the total unpredictability of it!

s1ocki (slutsky), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 11:25 (nineteen years ago) link

I like him even when I disagree with him (which I do... often... and sometimes violently) which is a good sign in a critic.

Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 11:31 (nineteen years ago) link

I like the bits of teh dictionary that were written a while ago -- well, I know they're good, even if I don't read them now -- but it's the new shit that bothers me. For one thing, the new entries were too foten just lists -- I have iMDB thx.

Enrique (Enrique), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 11:39 (nineteen years ago) link

The "David Thomson: Classic or Well-dressed" thread is a much-loved thread, but is it about the sublimation of criticism or the chutzpah of jaded brevity and architectural diversion? Its absorption of waywardness is too facile to be endearing, and the sense of melancholic restraint seems forced. It may be a work of genius, but only in the sense that genius can often be padded out with pretentiously meretricious fortification. This fortification isn't good enough, because it reinforces the notion that talent and luxurious escapism are mutually exclusive. Enrique and s1ocki's posts are striking, but in a way that reinforces the proximity between sudden inspiration and premeditated amazement.

, Tuesday, 15 June 2004 17:27 (nineteen years ago) link

Good posts like that shouldn't be anonymous, should they, eh, Dave...

Alan Smithee (Enrique), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 18:20 (nineteen years ago) link

The intermittent anonymity, the ongoing discomfort with said anonymity; it's one of the truly selfconscious threads. But there's a selfconsciousness in intercontinental interweb mentalism that leads to a view that mere uncertainty is satisfactory, and that's dangerous. It's a self-destructive attitude that can make for bourgeoise-like complacency and paradoxical resignation. Numerous posters settle for an indistinct muddle of preciousness and unsubstantiated glibness. What does this portend for future interweb mentalism? Who can undermine the status quo? Will the revolutionaries eventually merge with the conservatives, creating an irreversible verbal neutral? Will the interweb collectively give in to bashful boyishness?

, Tuesday, 15 June 2004 19:49 (nineteen years ago) link

Part of me is saying, Hi Marcello, part not.

Enrique (Enrique), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 20:34 (nineteen years ago) link

Part of me is saying, you're...wrong.

, Tuesday, 15 June 2004 20:49 (nineteen years ago) link

That's what the other part of me thinks.

Enrique (Enrique), Tuesday, 15 June 2004 20:56 (nineteen years ago) link

Wait, are you speculating that Marcello's contributions to the board represent merely the chutzpah of coating verbal diatribes with a David Thomson aesthetic?

, Wednesday, 16 June 2004 11:33 (nineteen years ago) link

two months pass...
I started reading Beneath Mulholland last night and wow wow wow. Excellent stuff.

adam. (nordicskilla), Wednesday, 25 August 2004 19:07 (nineteen years ago) link

two months pass...
Last Sunday: I don't care for his swipes at Michael Moore, and his bold prediction was, alas, wrong. Yet with this canny expression of values, with characteristic clumsy grace, he moved, even thrilled me:

http://enjoyment.independent.co.uk/film/features/story.jsp?story=578012

the bellefox, Thursday, 4 November 2004 14:10 (nineteen years ago) link

my friend blogged our encoutner!:

http://endlessbanquet.blogspot.com/2004/11/david-and-bens-pt-1.html

s1ocki (slutsky), Sunday, 14 November 2004 22:55 (nineteen years ago) link

He is writing the official Nicole Kidman biography. David Thomson that is, not S1ocki's friend. Will it be as good/mad as 'Desert Eyes'?

Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Monday, 15 November 2004 08:43 (nineteen years ago) link

well, that Independent piece goes to show that movie critics don't know shit about American politics. Still, he's good--I think he gets a bit obvious when he writes about Welles, though, and while I agree that Chaplin was nowhere near as good as Keaton, he goes too far there with Hitler comparisons. Generally I enjoy him, he's full of shit like any other critic. "Beneath Mulholland" is great on "The Last Seduction" and "Brinks Job."

eddie hurt (ddduncan), Monday, 15 November 2004 15:12 (nineteen years ago) link

There was something about his recent piece about Rivette that really got on my tits, but I can't remember what. I suppose it was full of good advice though.

PJ Miller (PJ Miller), Monday, 15 November 2004 17:45 (nineteen years ago) link

JtN, thanks for recommending Desert Eyes to me. There should be more books like it!

The fact that Mr. Thomson lives in the Bay Area and has access to the Pacific Film Archive, the Castro, et al. probably makes it a bit easier to weather the storm.

How come I NEVER see DT at any of these places???

This mysterious "m." character should have a blog of his own, I think.

adam... (nordicskilla), Monday, 15 November 2004 17:56 (nineteen years ago) link

"it is normal to not make films." (jacques rivette)

cºzen (Cozen), Monday, 15 November 2004 17:56 (nineteen years ago) link

M is not me, it's the other writer on that blog!

s1ocki (slutsky), Monday, 15 November 2004 18:06 (nineteen years ago) link

Oh. Never mind.

adam... (nordicskilla), Monday, 15 November 2004 18:10 (nineteen years ago) link

but thx!

s1ocki (slutsky), Monday, 15 November 2004 18:10 (nineteen years ago) link

when flipping through the biographical dictionary, take a drink every time DT says "yes, XXX is talented -- but could you not say the same of Leni Riefenstahl?"

J.D. (Justyn Dillingham), Monday, 15 November 2004 19:35 (nineteen years ago) link

Pssch.

Anyway, I like taking drinks.

It's a shame about Rivette's split infinitive.

the bellefox, Tuesday, 16 November 2004 13:26 (nineteen years ago) link

one month passes...
17 days passed something like

-adam: i saw dt
-adam: i wished i'd put the moves on him
-me: that rivette thing ponged
-marcello: why
-me: here's why: [link]

henry miller, Tuesday, 21 December 2004 09:21 (nineteen years ago) link

the moves!

adam... (nordicskilla), Tuesday, 21 December 2004 16:14 (nineteen years ago) link

two weeks pass...
so i guess we lost the little discussion there was about "the whole equation"? i'm only a hundred pages in, but i'm really loving it so far. it feels like the book i've been waiting for him to write.

toby (tsg20), Thursday, 6 January 2005 00:35 (nineteen years ago) link

I'm about 70 pages ahead of you!

I do think it's great. without spoiling it, he does have a tendency to keep comparing film to other art forms and then apologizing for it, more and more so as he goes in. I love the general chapter about California (but I would) and he is sometimes so good in individual figures like Nicole Kidman and Erich Von Stroheim. Sometimes I can forgive him for stating the obvious because his writing is just so exuberant and beautiful and...well, mad. Also unlike other people on this thread (and no disrespect meant to them at all), I don't tend to get caught up with small details and inconsistencies. Perhaps I would get even more from him if I did, I just have a very selective memory!

.adam (nordicskilla), Thursday, 6 January 2005 02:08 (nineteen years ago) link

on individual figures

.adam (nordicskilla), Thursday, 6 January 2005 02:09 (nineteen years ago) link

Sorry for such a poorly constructed post, there isn't much time

.adam (nordicskilla), Thursday, 6 January 2005 02:17 (nineteen years ago) link

is he writing kidman biography, or did i imagine that? because the section on her is pretty amazing.

toby (tsg20), Thursday, 6 January 2005 08:36 (nineteen years ago) link

He is. My favourite bit in TWE is about the Hopper usherette.

Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Thursday, 6 January 2005 08:58 (nineteen years ago) link

Yes! That is wonderful.

I apologize for the linkage but this event is taking place during the next month only 15 mins walk from my house!
http://www.bampfa.berkeley.edu/pfa_programs/hollywood/index.html

.adam (nordicskilla), Thursday, 6 January 2005 15:59 (nineteen years ago) link

I have never read The Last Tycoon but I intend to immediately.

.adam (nordicskilla), Thursday, 6 January 2005 15:59 (nineteen years ago) link

i can't face this book. there are millions of unread books of tinseltown lore in oxfams everywhere, why would i want one at full whack? dt is exactly the mojo of film right now: hollywood is dead, cinema is dead -- as if the two propositions followed.

henry miller, Thursday, 6 January 2005 16:03 (nineteen years ago) link

Then tell us, henry. Who is The Wire, the Simon Reynolds, the Dave Q, the Tim Finney (or whatever) of film?

I wouldn't really call this book "lore", either. It's far more than anecdotal. I hope you don't think I am just being an apologist but I don't get some of your criticisms above (as in, I literally cannot parse them!).

.adam (nordicskilla), Thursday, 6 January 2005 16:07 (nineteen years ago) link

i don't have any original criticisms but to break it down:
- overemphasises hollywood
- millennarian viewpoint (it all went shit after 1974!!)
- self-regarding prose style
- doesn't actually like films, thinks they are silly

better writers of his generation? vf perkins, robin wood, charles barr, peter wollen.

henry miller, Thursday, 6 January 2005 16:14 (nineteen years ago) link

- overemphasises hollywood

fair enough.

- millennarian viewpoint (it all went shit after 1974!!)

This is simultaneously the most common and most baffling criticism of DT. I'll agree that he is not on the cutting edge, but he talks about and trumps up a whole load of current stuff!

- self-regarding prose style

This is what I LIKE about him! :)

- doesn't actually like films, thinks they are silly

Haha. Well, this is what I was hinting at when I mentioned the ceaseless comparisons with other art forms.


I guess it all comes down to whether you like (and actively seek out) "self-regarding" writing about Hollywood!

.adam (nordicskilla), Thursday, 6 January 2005 16:19 (nineteen years ago) link

Robin Wood is very good. I was taught by Charles Barr (as was Jerry, I reckon)! I have never read VF Perkins, where would be a good place to start?

.adam (nordicskilla), Thursday, 6 January 2005 16:21 (nineteen years ago) link

helpfully he's only done abt two books: 'film as film' (1972) and a bfi classik on 'magnificent ambersons'. he's doing/done one on 'regle du jeu'. him and wood and barr all wrote/write for 'movie', and as i foudn the other day the compiler of the nick ray filmog for perkins' seminal article on ray was... david thomson.

henry miller, Thursday, 6 January 2005 16:23 (nineteen years ago) link

wheels within wheels!

Does VF Perkins (still?) teach at Warwick? I came very close to going there.

.adam (nordicskilla), Thursday, 6 January 2005 16:24 (nineteen years ago) link

yeah, still there. cb is still at uea n'all.

henry miller, Thursday, 6 January 2005 16:35 (nineteen years ago) link

http://enjoyment.independent.co.uk/film/features/story.jsp?story=596420

this shows some good, some bad. he thinks mainstream hollywood is a bust on the basis of 'troy', 'alexander', ect. and yet he not only keeps writing almost exclusively about hollywood, he also decides to ignore hollywood's better films: last year's mainstream comedies 'school of rock', 'anchorman', 'dodgeball', 'bad santa' were all first-rate. 'spiderman 2' and 'the bourne identity' were brilliant mainstream action films. 'eternal sunshine' and 'i heart huckabees' and 'before sunset' were superb mainstream comedies (for want of a better term). 2004 was not the fall of rome: it's up there with the mid-seventies.
dt is however entirely right about 'the power of nightmares'. none of the films in the doc boom (some of which -- supersize me and outfoxed especially -- were terrible) match this series.

henry miller, Monday, 10 January 2005 10:35 (nineteen years ago) link

How did Thomson ignore 'Eternal Sunshine', Henry? By devoting two columns to it and calling it one of the best films of the year? You're getting as bad as Marcello with his Petrides fixation.

Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Monday, 10 January 2005 10:41 (nineteen years ago) link

yes, he liked one of those films, possibly others: i'm not disputing him on individual films so much as the general tenor of his work, the constant nay-saying about hollywood and the lack of comment on/knowledge of anything else. sure, you get paid better for writing about hollywood, but he's supposed to be one of the greats. instead he's increasingly melting into the crowd: the weird oscar obsession is the tip of the iceberg. constantly he overinvests in overhyped players like jude law, and then blames law when he loses his shirt. i just can't see the point of this other than to feather his nest.

henry miller, Monday, 10 January 2005 10:48 (nineteen years ago) link

The thing about Thomson, as has often been pointed out round here, is his ambivalence. He's not really an ideologue, or an embittered old coot, though he may occasionally seem like one. He often writes about engaging with his children, with what they find to enjoy in the movies. As he says, "mixed feelings [about Hollywood] may be the only ones worth having".

He writes so much about the Oscars because he is a freelance writer with a family to support and no academic tenure, and that is what editors commission him to write! When I spoke to him last year, he readily admitted that he would much rather never write another word about the movies. He's caught in a trap, and he would be the first to admit that, in one of his more noirish moods.

Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Monday, 10 January 2005 10:54 (nineteen years ago) link

that's interesting (and discouraging). if it is the case, then as a reader you can understand my dismay: the '94 'biographical dictionary' is the most read book in the house, but '02 was technically worse even if nothing was actually missing. (actually i think i even prefer the '75, with the tiny bibliographies.) it can't be a coincidence that his cut-off point for great films is 1974, the year he wrote his big book. i would guess he knows this. but if so he needs to know more of non-hollywood cinema to describe cinema as a 'funerary medium'. but i would also guess he is judging society as much as films when he makes that call.

henry miller, Monday, 10 January 2005 11:06 (nineteen years ago) link

I could understand your resentment (and that of the guy in Film Comment a couple of years ago) if I took ABDOF as some kind of reliable, authoritative academic work (I wish the publishers hadn't lumped it with a definite article). But if you think of it (as I think he says in his Warhol entry) as a novel entitled '100,000 hours in the dark', or as a work of cultural phenomenology then I think those criticisms seem kind of churlish. For what it's worth, I think my favourite books of his may be the one that aren't about movie ('4-2' about the 1966 World Cup), or which deal with it tangentially (eg the chapters on his movie-going childhood in 'America in the dark').

Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Monday, 10 January 2005 11:15 (nineteen years ago) link

he sounds not unlike Richard Meltzer, then - a whore like all the rest

oldlib, Monday, 10 January 2005 11:16 (nineteen years ago) link

yeah it would be churlish if he (crossing threads here) turned barthesian and refused categorical statements about 'cinema'. but it's not just the definite article on the cover: dt *does* make categorical statements (cinema is dying, cinema is threatened by computer games, cinema is unhealthy). it's possibly because i did like/emulate him that i'm this violent in rejecting it now. perhaps i need to separate the articles done for cash from those he cares about. but the rivette piece was discouraging in that even at s&s rates he still has to peddle the Big Story of where is all went wrong for The Movies.

henry miller, Monday, 10 January 2005 11:25 (nineteen years ago) link

Worse are the examples of what DT considers it's all going right for The Movies - Closer and Million Dollar Baby, both of which might as well have been filmed plays (yes I know Closer IS a filmed play, but...).

Marcello Carlin, Monday, 10 January 2005 15:39 (nineteen years ago) link

Closer was great!

.adam (nordicskilla), Monday, 10 January 2005 16:01 (nineteen years ago) link

i'm keeping an open mind. in the uk the trailer has damien rice all over it. so not *that* open. it stars dt proteges julia roberts and jude law, so again, the bodes be illin'.

henry miller, Monday, 10 January 2005 16:09 (nineteen years ago) link

I like (where) JtN uses 'movie' as an abstract plural noun (or whatever) - like 'literature' or 'cheese'.

Class.

the bellefox, Monday, 10 January 2005 16:14 (nineteen years ago) link

Charles Barr it was who gave me the notion of The Northern, as a UK subgeneric equivalent to the Western.

Admit it - it's superb.

I am glad, I think, merely to hear that Perkins lives still.

the dreamfox, Monday, 10 January 2005 16:15 (nineteen years ago) link

Charles Barr has some splendid anecdotes about attending Hitchcock conferences with Robin Wood!

.adam (nordicskilla), Monday, 10 January 2005 16:17 (nineteen years ago) link

wood's new intro to the 3rd ed of 'hitchcock's films' is a knock-out of autobiography-crit. i met charles barr a few months ago. unfortunately i would have sounded silly mentioning people called 'jerry the nipper' and '@da@m'.

henry miller, Monday, 10 January 2005 16:21 (nineteen years ago) link

That's a shame because I am having real trouble getting reference letters from any of my former UEA professors and I need them quite urgently!

.adam (nordicskilla), Monday, 10 January 2005 16:25 (nineteen years ago) link

HM: Yes: but in a way, he would have been seriously, frivolously tickled, I think, to hear that you knew someone called Jerry the Nipper. And make that a treble for Thomson himself.

(Adam: I am surprised.)

the bellefox, Monday, 10 January 2005 16:26 (nineteen years ago) link

(I know, I was a good student, honest! I know that 4ndr3w H1gs0n is now head of the department and is probably very busy but he hasn't replied to any of my emails for a while. Anyway, I apologize for derailing the DT talk.)

.adam (nordicskilla), Monday, 10 January 2005 16:29 (nineteen years ago) link

it was a strange weekend. peter whitehead, maker of 'wholly communion' and 'tonite let's all make love in london' was there. like barr, he studied on the first ever film course at the slade, under thorold dickinson. online there is a forty page thesis on robin wood i really want to read. alas it is in swedish.

henry miller, Monday, 10 January 2005 16:34 (nineteen years ago) link

Where is it? (I know a little Norwegian - hence my terrible old username , maybe I can figure some of it out!)

.adam (nordicskilla), Monday, 10 January 2005 16:36 (nineteen years ago) link

http://www.filmint.nu/pdf/bocker/Robin%20Wood%20(utdrag).pdf

http://www.filmint.nu/eng.html is a qt good site/zine -- has occasional long wood pieces, and, recently, a long interview with vf perkins.

henry miller, Monday, 10 January 2005 16:42 (nineteen years ago) link

I’m being tough on I Love Everything for the same reasons I was tough on Ask A Drunk and I Love Music. These are message boards of remarkable knowledge, humanity and depth. They stimulate subtle discussion, and deftly obfuscate left/right compartmentalisation to the benefit of unpretentious intellectualism. But this brings its problems. There comes a time when the status quo of intricacy eventually gives into a mood of numb complacency. With all three, even the best threads muddy the distinction between uniquely formed stability and a status quo that glorifies the formulaic. ILE especially demands the observer to penetrate the community aesthetic, and presents itself as indifferent to potential feelings of disgust. With an attitude of such casual misanthropy, how does the board tell us about real life without a resort to smugness or simplification? How are its contributors meant to provide the reliable focus if they themselves have such a one-dimensional value system? If meaning is stumbled upon so arbitrarily, what is to be said of the maintenance of such a perspective? But what other message board arouses such questions? The danger of ILE may also be its claim to profundity.

, Thursday, 13 January 2005 20:28 (nineteen years ago) link

http://enjoyment.independent.co.uk/film/features/story.jsp?story=603878

At the risk of "getting as bad as Marcello with his Petrides fixation" (this is a thread abt DT, so...), this is the rankest piece of film-rockism I've read in years.

Henry Miller, Monday, 24 January 2005 12:25 (nineteen years ago) link

I always mention that I know Jerry the Nipper. I've pulled literally dozens of birds that way. I tell them I am his fountain pen roadie. They are just using me to get near his nib, but who am I to complain?

Peter Stringbender (PJ Miller), Monday, 24 January 2005 12:59 (nineteen years ago) link

i can't believe he dissed ronin! my heart is broken

s1ocki (slutsky), Monday, 24 January 2005 22:44 (nineteen years ago) link

one month passes...
okay, so. i just bought '4-2', because i don't want to be a hata. it looks pretty good, although there seems to be quite a lot of stuff about football there,.

NRQ, Tuesday, 8 March 2005 16:15 (nineteen years ago) link

football's a good sport.

cozen (Cozen), Tuesday, 8 March 2005 16:20 (nineteen years ago) link

yeah? i think i saw some people playing it once.

NRQ, Tuesday, 8 March 2005 16:21 (nineteen years ago) link

I haven't finished the book. :(

adam.r.l. (nordicskilla), Tuesday, 8 March 2005 16:22 (nineteen years ago) link

The book contains marvels.

I have been meaning to post and ask, perhaps pointlessly, why he likes Joan Didion so much. I mean, even if you like Didion, as in a way I do, there seems a disproportion in his ardour.

the bellefox, Thursday, 10 March 2005 15:14 (nineteen years ago) link

i read 4-2 last week! it was quite good, although i skipped some of the actual football descriptions. better than i expected, anyway. but i prefer him writing about movies.

toby (tsg20), Thursday, 10 March 2005 15:53 (nineteen years ago) link

£3 remaindered, regent st 'book warehouse'.

NRQ`, Thursday, 10 March 2005 15:57 (nineteen years ago) link

I am reading "What Makes Sammy Run?" instead!

Senior Executive/CEO (nordicskilla), Thursday, 10 March 2005 16:20 (nineteen years ago) link

awesome book!

s1ocki (slutsky), Thursday, 10 March 2005 16:35 (nineteen years ago) link

!!

On;y two chapters in, I started it on my commute this AM.

Senior Executive/CEO (nordicskilla), Thursday, 10 March 2005 16:37 (nineteen years ago) link

Is that the Budd Schulberg (sp?) book?

Michael White (Hereward), Thursday, 10 March 2005 16:41 (nineteen years ago) link

yup

s1ocki (slutsky), Thursday, 10 March 2005 16:43 (nineteen years ago) link

three months pass...
This thread never got around to a discussion of THE WHOLE EQUATION, I think.

I still want to hear what people made of it.

I wanted to start a complex thread on ILM about how DT's views on film might transfer to pop, and how we might then view them, etc; but - well, perhaps it was too complex for me.

the pinefox, Thursday, 30 June 2005 13:50 (eighteen years ago) link

Goddamn am I sick of this TV is the new movies crap.

"I do think that a lot of people my age--I'm 64--have given up on the movies. The truth is that television, if you pick and choose, is a lot more grown-up and satisfying these days..."

http://citypages.com/databank/26/1282/article13454.asp

Eric H. (Eric H.), Thursday, 30 June 2005 14:27 (eighteen years ago) link

Not having seen anything on HBO in about three years, or "24" ever, I'm intuitively skeptical as well. I am not sick of 'studio movieshave never been worse,' tho.

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 30 June 2005 15:17 (eighteen years ago) link

Well, I'm pretty sick of that one too (the great B-movies Thompson claims have morphed into, I guess, 24 are still there to be found, like Cellular), but not enough to rail against it.

Eric H. (Eric H.), Thursday, 30 June 2005 15:27 (eighteen years ago) link

He's not say tv is the new movies - he's saying tv is better than the movies. Good interview, though, and an interesting corrective to the idea that DT is some kind of unambiguous film rockist.

Well, I think it's a great moment for critics to talk about the medium as a whole rather than individual films. I think there's a lot going on in the world of screens--which is a much larger world than just movies per se and it's very interesting. I mean, at the moment I would almost rather review some video games than movies--not only because more people are looking at them and because my children are looking at them, which are good reasons, but because I think they're almost more interesting.

Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Thursday, 30 June 2005 15:29 (eighteen years ago) link

I like how you didn't refute my point but instead turned it into a more contentious objection. Nice. Now I think he's the devil.

Eric H. (Eric H.), Thursday, 30 June 2005 20:12 (eighteen years ago) link

The Today's TV > Today's Cinema comparison only makes sense if the salient feature of both media is in plot or maybe character... and I mean that in the sense of the old serials, at that. But actually, my real beef is how often the two are even compared to each other as though they were separated-at-birth twins.

Eric H. (Eric H.), Thursday, 30 June 2005 20:16 (eighteen years ago) link

"TV is the new movies" is a gross reduction of what is at work, and what is being argued, here though really

c/n (Cozen), Thursday, 30 June 2005 20:41 (eighteen years ago) link

How would you characterize it, then? Reductive is pretty much how I would characterize one of the cinephile world's foremost film critics saying "The truth is that television, if you pick and choose, is a lot more grown-up and satisfying these days..." Like a music critic saying that she/he finds role-playing a lot more satisfying these days. Or an architecture critic saying that she/he finds skeet shooting a lot more satisfying these days. (Note, exaggerated for emphasis. I realize that there is, indeed, overlap between TV and cinema...)

Eric H. (Eric H.), Thursday, 30 June 2005 23:01 (eighteen years ago) link

Judging just by what you quote, I'd say he's saying that television, if you pick and choose, is a lot more grown-up and satisfying these days.

Pete Scholtes, Friday, 1 July 2005 11:39 (eighteen years ago) link

"if you pick and choose"

So, my glitch must then be in thinking that he's even making any sort of statement whatsoever. Everything is more satisfying if you pick and choose, in my opinion.

Eric H. (Eric H.), Friday, 1 July 2005 12:16 (eighteen years ago) link

It all gives more credence to the suggestion (of others, not me given I haven't even bothered reading his book) that he's not really much of a picker and chooser when it comes to movies, especially when it comes to foreign films.

Eric H. (Eric H.), Friday, 1 July 2005 12:17 (eighteen years ago) link

The thing is, when Thomson refers to "Movie", he's really talking about mainstream Hollywood - that's certainly what The Whole Equation is about. I don't think he would deny that there are interesting things going on in world cinema - what he would regret is that they never get anywhere near the multiplexes, and thus aren't enlivened/endangered by the possibility of contact with a pop audience.

Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Friday, 1 July 2005 12:21 (eighteen years ago) link

Kael was saying similar things from that 1980 piece they mention til her published "last interview."

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Friday, 1 July 2005 12:28 (eighteen years ago) link

What I'd like to hear more of from Thomson is why it is that, in this day and age et al, it requires multiple 30/60 min episodes of a series to be able to accomplish in terms of mainstream storytelling what it used to take just one brisk 90 minute minute chunk of screentime to pull off... and without falling back on blaming special effects or increasingly doltish audiences.

Eric H. (Eric H.), Friday, 1 July 2005 12:36 (eighteen years ago) link

the answers are, in no particular order, expenditure, syndication and advertising.

Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Friday, 1 July 2005 12:38 (eighteen years ago) link

On the flip, what makes the film medium inferior?

Eric H. (Eric H.), Friday, 1 July 2005 13:58 (eighteen years ago) link

what makes it so neccessarily superior that it ticks you off so much that thomson might suggest that TV is delivering stronger narrative these days?

s1ocki (slutsky), Friday, 1 July 2005 19:27 (eighteen years ago) link

(and if he IS just talking about hollywood... he's right)

s1ocki (slutsky), Friday, 1 July 2005 19:28 (eighteen years ago) link

What I'd like to hear more of from Thomson is why it is that, in this day and age et al, it requires multiple 30/60 min episodes of a series to be able to accomplish in terms of mainstream storytelling what it used to take just one brisk 90 minute minute chunk of screentime to pull off...

this is kind of fallacious too, movies weren't ALWAYS 90 minutes and serials obv predate TV

s1ocki (slutsky), Friday, 1 July 2005 19:29 (eighteen years ago) link

It isn't a question of it being superior/inferior. It's just a different medium is all I'm saying. Using TV to slam movies makes no sense to me.

I guess I at least admire that Thomson has the balls to say, not in so many words, "I'm falling out of love with movies and in love with TV."

Eric H. (Eric H.), Saturday, 2 July 2005 01:53 (eighteen years ago) link

In any case, just because Thomson doesn't see anything particularly interesting in the films of "this day and age" doesn't mean there's nothing interesting to be seen.

Eric H. (Eric H.), Saturday, 2 July 2005 01:56 (eighteen years ago) link

Unless it does, of course.

Eric H. (Eric H.), Saturday, 2 July 2005 02:02 (eighteen years ago) link

you don't think TV and movies have anything in common? anything that makes them worth comparing?

s1ocki (slutsky), Saturday, 2 July 2005 02:19 (eighteen years ago) link

An old roommate of mine writes for TV and he seems to echo some of what Thompson says: when making movies there are too way many people putting in their two cents, talking about arcs of characters, trying to "improve" the characters, etc, whereas on TV the writer has at least a fighting chance not to have to dumb it down. Of course, he might have a professional bias, but still.

k/l (Ken L), Saturday, 2 July 2005 02:29 (eighteen years ago) link

you don't think TV and movies have anything in common? anything that makes them worth comparing?

Not particularly if the point of comparing them is to say one sucks in comparison to the other.

In any case, my stance seems to have at least one foot firmly, stubbornly planted in the idea of a*t**rism, with movies having a fixed director/screenwriter for the duration, whereas TV has a series of writers and directors (and, sure, a cohesive monolithic "creator")...

I won't deny that TV probably is a more suitable medium for works that have a more writerly emphasis, or at least gives them a lot more space to finesse out ideas and character arcs.

Eric H. (Eric H.), Saturday, 2 July 2005 03:10 (eighteen years ago) link

Couldn't the cohesive monolithic "creator" be considered an a*t**r- Gene Rodenberry for Star Trek, TOS, James-L-Brooks for The Mary Tyler Moore Show? (I may regret this in the morning)

k/l (Ken L), Saturday, 2 July 2005 03:23 (eighteen years ago) link

david chase for the sopranos...

film is a collaborative medium too you know!!

s1ocki (slutsky), Saturday, 2 July 2005 19:45 (eighteen years ago) link

I'll take that into consideration from now on.

Eric H. (Eric H.), Saturday, 2 July 2005 20:39 (eighteen years ago) link

ive said before (but still, i believe it) that just about every episode of The Sopranos blows most hollywood movies of recent years out of the water.

jed_ (jed), Saturday, 2 July 2005 21:01 (eighteen years ago) link

And it's also been very clear ever since the days of The Rockford Files, that tv stars like Garner or Gandolfini or Alyson Hannigan are never going to get as good roles in movies as they did in tv.

Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Saturday, 2 July 2005 21:05 (eighteen years ago) link

True enough, although I did like Support Your Local Gunfighter and Support Your Local Sheriff, and Gandolfini has had some good film roles, in that Cassavettes thing Isn't She Lovely?, and in the Sidney Lumet movie where he plays a dirty cop, Ian Holm's partner.

k/l (Ken L), Saturday, 2 July 2005 21:24 (eighteen years ago) link

you don't think TV and movies have anything in common? anything that makes them worth comparing?

Not particularly if the point of comparing them is to say one sucks in comparison to the other.

OTFM!

TV != dumb

Paunchy Stratego (kenan), Saturday, 2 July 2005 21:31 (eighteen years ago) link

At this point, I'd better clarify that I never intended to imply that TV sucks. I'm just saying that movies don't is all. I'm not at all qualified to comment on narrative TV. Nearly all of my favorite shows are episodic comedies and/or non-narrative stuff (like Bob Effing Ross!)

Eric H. (Eric H.), Saturday, 2 July 2005 22:12 (eighteen years ago) link

for most people, movies 'are' tv in terms of how we watch 'em. dt has been lamenting the decline of the movie house since at least 1977 (innaresting article in summer '77 sight and sound). he says there cinema has been shit in the seventies. only 'king kong' and 'the godfather' are worth a shit, he says. he doesn't mention 'celine and julie go boating'. he certainly doesn't regard it as a golden age. i don't even think he mention's 'chinatown'!!

n_RQ, Sunday, 3 July 2005 11:37 (eighteen years ago) link

That makes his take on the last few years in City Pages (nothing but Mulholland Drive and parts of The Terminal worth defending) seem practically rational by comparison.

Eric H. (Eric H.), Sunday, 3 July 2005 16:54 (eighteen years ago) link

i think it's fair enough, kinda. in context: dt is lamenting the decline of cinema as a mass medium. it isn't really about films. i'll quote from it:

"there are few cheerful congregations now in the cinema, but uneasy individuals with a dozen seats to themselves."

"so many public cinemas are now seedy and apologetic, as if fit for that nondescript who sits in baleful awe of the fantastic screen and may sometimes, in despair or vengeance, carry its melodramatic spasms over into life."

"the cinema is no longer of the people."

on taxi driver, one flew over the cuckoo's nest, network: "we gather in woe and dread for our wretched times, and the 'enjoyment' can be lacerating."

"when did you last see a film in which you believed people were in love, and cared"

of 'the godfather', 'jaws' and 'king kong': "i think i prefer them to anything else i have seen in that time."

n_rq, Sunday, 3 July 2005 17:30 (eighteen years ago) link

there are few cheerful congregations now in the cinema

I knew there was something fishy when the collection plate was passed down the aisle at my screening of Batman Begins.

Eric H. (Eric H.), Sunday, 3 July 2005 17:59 (eighteen years ago) link

:-)

It seems to me there was a long while when cinema was viewed by its many champions as an art form that managed to be at the same time both elitist and populist, and had improved upon and in many ways superceded its parents- the theater and the novel. Being disabused of this notion was a Great Disillusionment- A Loss Of Ideology or Death of God. Belief in cinema had been like belief in the French Revolution or the Enlightenment. Just because Thompson seems to have stuck his head in the sand a little too early doesn't mean that he's wrong.

k/l (Ken L), Sunday, 3 July 2005 18:48 (eighteen years ago) link

And the same applies to Thomson, of course.

k/l (Ken L), Sunday, 3 July 2005 18:49 (eighteen years ago) link

To JtN's last point I'll add: Bruce Willis and Cybill Shepherd!

I think it is quite good for someone to stick up for TV, because I recently read Jonathan Franzen's book where he is proud of having given his TV away, and he seems to think it's a choice between dumb TV and intelligent reading - whereas I keep turning on the TV and finding great fascination and movement: Wimbledon, Live8, even the repeat performance of Des on HIGNFY? last night. I don't find a lack of richness in these programmes. I could watch them all day. Which is a good thing as some of them go on all day.

I do think that the end of THE WHOLE EQUATION is a cop-out, though, in that he says world cinema and independent cinema are good, yes, but he can't be bothered to talk about them. His rationale - that it's what's Pop that matters to him - is a good one. But that doesn't mean he couldn't write a great book about, say, the last 30 years of independent US film - much of which is surely his kind of thing.

the pinefox, Tuesday, 5 July 2005 09:02 (eighteen years ago) link

up to a point, a writer in dt's position has *some* ability to take foreign language and/or indie films 'to a wider audience'. it's okay to be into hollywood and not much else but his model of the 'true', fordian hollywood really ended with the fifties.

it's frustrating because when he does venture out and write about, say, alan clarke, he's good at it (sometimes he's terrible, though, when he can't really be bothered, as with most of the new entries in the BDOF).

but as in the quotes i posted, he has been lamenting the decline of film as a mass medium for more than half of his writing life. and the article they came from had a kind of power and authority (it's partly about his experiences teaching film in the states, partly about the death of his mother) that i think is lacking in his recent stuff. and given that 'everybody knows' (including dt) that the 70s were a golden age now, the article casts an interesting light on his equally pessimistic stance now.

N_RQ, Tuesday, 5 July 2005 09:12 (eighteen years ago) link

i haven't read the whole equation, but i suspect it will be either a) fantastic or b) a bit redundant, because the biographical dictionary of film is already thomson's history of hollywood, really. he's an incredible writer, but not very good on non-western films - his entry on kurosawa is awful. and i'm not just saying that because i like kurosawa: DT's dissenting entry on john ford is powerful and thoughtprovoking even if you like ford, but the kurosawa entry is more like a snide brushoff.

J.D. (Justyn Dillingham), Tuesday, 5 July 2005 09:22 (eighteen years ago) link

I don't think DT would say the "'true', Fordian cinema" - he hates Ford! (apart from 'The Searchers'). Hawksian cinema, maybe.

I think DT is getting stick (a bit like Reynolds from Watson) for a book he didn't write. 'The Whole Equation' is a history of mainstream Hollywood - it doesn't pretend or aspire to be a history of World or Indie Cinema.

An interesting subtext to the Biographical Dictionary, btw, is how many of the best entries are about tv - Johnny Carson, James Garner, Lucille Ball, Madonna ... and Ronald Reagan.

Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Tuesday, 5 July 2005 09:28 (eighteen years ago) link

but you can't write about hollywood *without* talking about foreign-language or indie cinema.

some hollywood greats: lang, hitchcock, POLANSKI!!, woo.

N_RQ, Tuesday, 5 July 2005 09:32 (eighteen years ago) link

er, hitch not strictly foreign language, so dietlef sierck then.

and in recent hollywood: soderbergh, tarantino, PTA.

N_RQ, Tuesday, 5 July 2005 09:33 (eighteen years ago) link

The practicalities of writing any kind of history mean you construct all kinds of contingent boundaries. Alternatively you end up spending 20 years writing your book, with no end in sight (hallo mark s!).

Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Tuesday, 5 July 2005 09:37 (eighteen years ago) link

Ooh.

I don't mean to give DT that stick, JtN. You know that I like DT on Hollywood. But you yourself have often pointed out that he is tired of it, and could usefully spread his wings more, assuming he is allowed to. (Hm - 'David is like a seagull... he wraps his wings around Hollywood...')

I do feel that, given the ennui of the last book, the implicit question arises why he *didn't* write those other books. He raises it himself near the end, but doesn't answer it save by saying that Pop matters. Which is, as I say, not a bad case.

I haven't seen BW on SR yet, but someone told me it was nutty.

Perhaps the book that he should write is one (lyrical, fabulistic, musing, whateverr) about the Great American Songbook - veering back into Movie whenever he wants, as imaginative illustration, but not compelled to if he doesn't want to take it that way.

the pinefox, Tuesday, 5 July 2005 13:43 (eighteen years ago) link

(PS / I don't mean BW or SR should write that book!!)

the pinefox, Tuesday, 5 July 2005 13:44 (eighteen years ago) link

i think he should write one about england, or his impression of it from SF. as i say, the stuff on clarke (and david hare, frears), is whati like from the recent editions, and there's tantalising stuff elsewhere.

N_RQ, Tuesday, 5 July 2005 13:51 (eighteen years ago) link

So Pinefox, are you saying he should take a page out of Geoffrey O'Brien's book?

k/l (Ken L), Tuesday, 5 July 2005 13:55 (eighteen years ago) link

I think DT probably wrote the book because someone asked him to, and for his teenaged son, and for challenge of writing a one-volume history of Hollywood, when such things are unfashionable.

I heard that, along with doing the Kidman biog, DT has another novel on the go, and a book about American weather...

Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Tuesday, 5 July 2005 14:03 (eighteen years ago) link

his next (non-kidman book) is going to be CRAZY. think marlon brando & pirates.

s1ocki (slutsky), Tuesday, 5 July 2005 20:21 (eighteen years ago) link

Yes, perhaps I am.

The weather idea sounds familiar - it must be because he touches on it in TWE.

I suppose IN NEVADA might stand as an example of what he could do.

The England idea is good, but 4-2 is partly that book? Remarkable how good that one is at times.

the pinefox, Wednesday, 6 July 2005 16:39 (eighteen years ago) link

Side note from Trekkie: I'd say Gene Coon was slightly more the auteur of Star Trek than the other Gene.

Pete Scholtes, Thursday, 7 July 2005 04:25 (eighteen years ago) link

yeah, 4-2 is partly that book, i wanted more, specifically more about movies and seeing 'em. that whole '60s culture of going to suburban cinemas to see old westerns.

N_RQ, Thursday, 7 July 2005 07:53 (eighteen years ago) link

You need to read the opening chapter of his first book, 'Movie Man', Henry, which is exactly that. I can lend it to you if you like.

Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Thursday, 7 July 2005 09:22 (eighteen years ago) link

wow, really? i've never seen a copy. thatwd be awesome. don't you live in lyme regis tho innit?

N_RQ, Thursday, 7 July 2005 09:24 (eighteen years ago) link

Actually I have confused myself. I just checked, and the chapter I'm thinking of is actually in 'America in the dark: Hollywood and gift of unreality' from 1977. The chapter is called 'A child's garden of Hollywood'.

It's St Leonards, but I'm in London at least two days a week.

Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Thursday, 7 July 2005 09:31 (eighteen years ago) link

not today, i hope!

N_RQ, Thursday, 7 July 2005 09:35 (eighteen years ago) link

five months pass...
this is good dave! stick to this kind of stuff.

Theorry Henry (Enrique), Wednesday, 14 December 2005 15:04 (eighteen years ago) link

Ooh, I love the last clause!

the pinefox, Wednesday, 14 December 2005 18:06 (eighteen years ago) link

mais non, dave! this is terrible!

Theorry Henry (Enrique), Friday, 16 December 2005 10:28 (eighteen years ago) link

Why?

the pinefox, Friday, 16 December 2005 19:04 (eighteen years ago) link

i think he's wrong, and we haven't seen the end of the studio picture, still less the blockbuster.

i don't think the films he's talking about are 'independent' in any meaningful sense -- but any case wasn't indiewood's moment like five or six years ago!?

i also think he's been mourning the decline of the communal moviegoing experience for far too long -- nearly three decades. do you not adjust, after a while, to the post-tv reality? maybe not, but being a person who grew up on films on tv/video, i'm not all that sympathetic.

and at the same time i think it's an article for lazy people who want to be assured they're not missing anything and that their twice-annual trip to the everyman.

and always with the oscars obsession!

however it is interesting that he's taking this line, that we're not all doomed, per most of dt's writings over the last few years.

Theorry Henry (Enrique), Wednesday, 21 December 2005 10:54 (eighteen years ago) link

Sometimes I think everyone's on a different planet when it comes to movies. I thought long passages of Hulk and War of the Worlds were great, and if not great, at least daring when it comes to mainstream F/X blockbusters. They both flirted very heavily with ugliness. The dog scene in Hulk just sucked, and so did the climax, but I'd still make the case for that movie, especially the scenes in sand. War of the Worlds had the pat happy ending, and the painfully simplified youth-to-war scene, but I thought its pessimism about human nature in times of chaos was pretty persuasive, and it was just really scary. Okay, carry on...

Pete Scholtes (Pete Scholtes), Wednesday, 21 December 2005 21:43 (eighteen years ago) link

i rated 'wotw'.

Theorry Henry (Enrique), Wednesday, 21 December 2005 21:52 (eighteen years ago) link

Q: What would F. Scott Fitzgerald make of Hollywood today, do you think?

A: He’d want to read The Whole Equation quickly. He’d be sad, very sad–but he was when he was alive. I hope he’d salute my book and we could share a drink, or seven. I would love to try to finish The Last Tycoon the way he laid it out.

the snowfox, Tuesday, 27 December 2005 23:43 (eighteen years ago) link

Pete is quite correct.

Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Wednesday, 28 December 2005 00:11 (eighteen years ago) link

not sure what to make of pinefox's post. what would x-novelist of eight decades ago make of the film industry today?

is this really a pressing issue for anyone?

Theorry Henry (Enrique), Wednesday, 28 December 2005 02:21 (eighteen years ago) link

well for david thomson it apparently is!

J.D. (Justyn Dillingham), Wednesday, 28 December 2005 06:13 (eighteen years ago) link

one month passes...
Film Studies: See the real Clint Eastwood for the first time - and weep
By David Thomson
Published: 09 January 2005

We were sitting in a large, packed movie theatre in San Francisco, the day after New Year's day. I had waited to see Million Dollar Baby in those circumstances because from the moment I first heard about it, only a few weeks ago, it was clear that this movie might be a sensation, and it promised a twist or a departure in its own narrative best experienced with the real thing - a large, raw audience, anxious to know what happened next.

This opening touches on many important general points that have little to do with Clint Eastwood's film, but which are worth addressing. Critics' screenings are the forum in which most "informed" opinions about your movies are arrived at. Such screenings are usually held in small rooms for between 20 and 40 people - a true but suspicious club, people who see all their movies together, in a spirit of edgy rivalry not inclined to give too much away. You can say that these are jaded victims of the system if only because they have to see just about every film made today. Can you imagine anyone under that duty staying sociable, let alone sane? And because their job is criticism, in a small knot of critics they are bound to keep their feelings secret. That restraint is not good for being an audience.

There's something else wrong with the critics' experience: they know too much about films in advance. There is too much talk on the internet. Too many stolen scripts are passed around. And then there is the modern way with trailers which reckon to deliver the big scenes and sometimes tell you what happens in the story. Again, that is not good for being an audience. After the dark and the size of the screen, nothing is more important to an audience than not knowing anything about the story they are about to see. And all too often these days, the critics and the public have a bored way of knowing in advance.

Clint Eastwood has always been one of the great producers in American film, and that was evident with Million Dollar Baby in his canny sleight of hand. The movie was made very quickly and quietly. No scripts got away. There were no early trailers, and no early screenings. Even now, in the first week of January, the film is playing on only seven screens in North America. Those screens are doing at least four times the business of any other screens and the word is spreading - what's this about Million Dollar Baby that I'm hearing? This is old-fashioned word-of-mouth, and the most modern thing about Clint Eastwood the producer is his faith in the old ways.

So there we were, my wife and I, at one of those seven screens, as Million Dollar Baby ended. We sat there as the credits unwound. We usually do, for a film writer needs to know the facts. But my wife looked around the theatre and murmured that about two thirds of the audience was also staying. "Really?" I said. "Why's that?" She looked again and she said, "They need time to recover". "Really?" I said. "Some of them are crying," she said. "Really?" I said. "Yes. You are," she said, looking at me. One of the best things about being in an audience is the kindness with which we look at each other.

Now, I am not going to tell you anything about Million Dollar Baby that isn't there in the first 10 minutes, except to say that Million Dollar Baby is a Clintishly clever title, one that makes you think of comedy and fun and high jinks. (It could be Steve Martin and Sandra Bullock having their life transformed when their kid becomes a star in commercials!) Clint plays a boxing trainer in a shabby gym where Morgan Freeman is his sidekick. Hilary Swank arrives and asks them to train her and make her a champion.

That's all I'm going to tell you beyond the fact that Million Dollar Baby is going to win Best Picture, and my tears were not just for its story but for the movies. Because at long last someone has said, "Look, this is how you do it", and made a film that hits you like one of Hilary Swank's punches.

Please don't assume that this is just an old Eastwood fan talking. Anyone who has read me over the years knows that I have had my reservations where Eastwood is concerned. A great producer - yes, and do not underestimate the rarity or the importance of that by falling into the orthodoxy that producers are hacks and scoundrels who get in the way of artists. Producers are often the showmen. I also felt and said that Eastwood was an actor of limited range and a rather modest, impersonal director. There were plenty of times when he settled for being Dirty Harry, when he was more intent on finishing his pictures than taking great care with them. I thought Unforgiven and Mystic River were both over-rated. But I think Million Dollar Baby is a great film.

And since I'm not going to do anything to spoil its story and its drama for you, I'm bound to concentrate on what has happened to Clinton Eastwood who will be 75 this May, and surely looks it, granted that he seems healthy still in the way of a man old and wise enough to walk, not run. What it amounts to, I think, is that at the age of 60 or so, he began to improve, no matter that he was rich and successful enough to do whatever he wanted. This is a very rare phenomenon in today's world of film where people of Eastwood's age either turn impossibly childish or senile, or stop. Instead, Eastwood has begun to search for better and better material and in the process he has enlarged himself as an actor and an artist.

The key to that is his performance in Million Dollar Baby: it is the first time, I feel, that Eastwood has decided not to be "Clint", but to find another character. And the magical bonus of that effort is that, in the process, I think we are getting our first glimpse of the real Eastwood. It has always been his code and perhaps his psychic need to seem tough, expert and in charge. Thus even in Unforgiven, he could not stop his fumbling gunslinger from reverting to the angel of death in the end. He settled for image and authority.

But in this picture he lets truth show - that of a rather harsh, emotionally shy man who may not always have been a sweetheart in life. The nearest I will come to talking about Million Dollar Baby is to say that it's close to a confession from a man who doubts that he has been an ideal father. That is art, and it is new in Eastwood. Yet the impact of his movie is enough to restore your faith in a medium that once knew to bring the lights up slowly as a film ended - to help the audience find its way back to reality.

the bellefox, Monday, 20 February 2006 14:23 (eighteen years ago) link

two months pass...
http://enjoyment.independent.co.uk/film/features/article362610.ece

ach god, it's just PATRONIZING!!!!

like, noooooooo, of COURSE no-one's heard of jim mcbride! it's only a landmark of US indie cinema after all.

the Enrique who acts like some kind of good taste gestapo (Enrique), Tuesday, 9 May 2006 07:58 (eighteen years ago) link

another sex scene that shouldn't have been allowed

I hear there's a vacancy on the next series of Grumpy Old Men. He and Morley should form a double act to trade wisecracks about how all our lives are rubbish unlike their own of course.

Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Tuesday, 9 May 2006 08:37 (eighteen years ago) link

Or maybe it should be Carlin and Miller?

Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Tuesday, 9 May 2006 08:42 (eighteen years ago) link

it's a hell of a pitch.

the Enrique who acts like some kind of good taste gestapo (Enrique), Tuesday, 9 May 2006 08:44 (eighteen years ago) link

The new Ant and Dec.

Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Tuesday, 9 May 2006 08:46 (eighteen years ago) link

well, that's what our agent's saying -- our steez is more vaughn/moran currently.

the Enrique who acts like some kind of good taste gestapo (Enrique), Tuesday, 9 May 2006 08:50 (eighteen years ago) link

I favour a Leopold and Loeb kind of perspective.

Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Tuesday, 9 May 2006 09:04 (eighteen years ago) link

I haven't heard of Jim McBride. I don't see why DT shouldn't bring him to a new audience.

When DT says the sex scene shouldn't have been allowed, I think he means he likes it and enjoys the naughty world of movie.

the pinefox (the pinefox), Tuesday, 9 May 2006 14:22 (eighteen years ago) link

oh, ok, but did he have to make such a big 'i know about obscure things' claim? because mcbride isn't that obscure (i'm sure other readers know the name), and DT isn't, at the end of the day, interested in underground cinema.

the Enrique who acts like some kind of good taste gestapo (Enrique), Tuesday, 9 May 2006 14:26 (eighteen years ago) link

which is his right, but he shoudn't oughta have claimed to be unveiling some unknown.

the Enrique who acts like some kind of good taste gestapo (Enrique), Tuesday, 9 May 2006 14:26 (eighteen years ago) link

The real sex scene which shouldn't have been allowed is the tiresome wanking in every DT book whenever the name Howard Hawks appears.

Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Tuesday, 9 May 2006 14:28 (eighteen years ago) link

wow, that whole comparing movies unfavorably to TV thing sure got on my last good nerve last year.

Eric H. (Eric H.), Tuesday, 9 May 2006 17:21 (eighteen years ago) link

where was that?

the Enrique who acts like some kind of good taste gestapo (Enrique), Wednesday, 10 May 2006 08:54 (eighteen years ago) link

June 30, 2005 into July 1...

Eric H. (Eric H.), Wednesday, 10 May 2006 08:59 (eighteen years ago) link

oh my bad i thought he'd done a big screed we hadn't discused.

the Enrique who acts like some kind of good taste gestapo (Enrique), Wednesday, 10 May 2006 09:01 (eighteen years ago) link

Yeah, it was sort of one aside too many for me (at the time).

Eric H. (Eric H.), Wednesday, 10 May 2006 12:19 (eighteen years ago) link

So what does he think about Callow's book then?

Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Tuesday, 16 May 2006 10:14 (eighteen years ago) link

ye gods.

Enrique IX: The Mediator (Enrique), Monday, 22 May 2006 10:10 (eighteen years ago) link

So when's my IoS "Music Studies" column starting, then?

Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Monday, 22 May 2006 10:18 (eighteen years ago) link

i can't wait to read the callow book, though i'm skeptical as to whether he's gonna be able to get through the rest of orson's life in the next volume. it's like robert caro and his 4 volume LBJ bio - he's 3 books in and he hasn't even reached LBJ's presidency!

J.D. (Justyn Dillingham), Monday, 22 May 2006 22:13 (eighteen years ago) link

I think he will require at least another two volumes - one from Macbeth to Touch of Evil, and another from 1958-85, and goodness knows how many ways the latter could be divided up.

A full-length study of his "decline" years would I think be especially welcome as DT, by his own admission, skips over it a bit in Rosebud.

Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Tuesday, 23 May 2006 06:50 (eighteen years ago) link

Thomson reviewed a new novel, Send Me, in the NY Observer recently, and invoked Faulkner throughout. Well, it's a decent enough book (tho typical of why I don't much like recent fiction), but bears no stylistic similarity to Faulkner whatsoever; DT seems to include W.F. because his teenage son is studying him.

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 31 May 2006 16:12 (eighteen years ago) link

one month passes...
is anyone else excited about this?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0747577102/202-1095403-7919002?v=glance&n=266239&s=gateway&v=glance

toby (tsg20), Tuesday, 11 July 2006 05:21 (seventeen years ago) link

A bit like me writing a book about Lynsey de Paul, really.

Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Tuesday, 11 July 2006 06:13 (seventeen years ago) link

i'm afraid i don't get that reference, marcello...

i really hope the book is as good as the kidman part of "the whole equation". i fear that it won't be, though.

toby (tsg20), Tuesday, 11 July 2006 06:32 (seventeen years ago) link

The Kidman part of TWE gives me the creeps.

Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Tuesday, 11 July 2006 06:35 (seventeen years ago) link

if he does it as a 320pp letter addressed to kidman then i salute.

Roughage Crew (Enrique), Tuesday, 11 July 2006 19:06 (seventeen years ago) link

Why doesn't he just post it then?

Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Wednesday, 12 July 2006 07:40 (seventeen years ago) link

David Thomson in a fist fight with Keith Urban - now I'd pay to see that.

Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Wednesday, 12 July 2006 07:41 (seventeen years ago) link

two months pass...
so it looks like the kidman book is out. has anyone read it? or seen reviews?

toby (tsg20), Sunday, 17 September 2006 07:53 (seventeen years ago) link

Here are some extracts

xyzzzz__ (jdesouza), Sunday, 17 September 2006 07:59 (seventeen years ago) link

its supposed to be kind of crazy, and doesnt really go into the whole tom mess

anthony easton (anthony), Sunday, 17 September 2006 08:00 (seventeen years ago) link

the extract a) was ewww and b) wasn't crazy.

tbh it read like a cut-n-paster.

EARLY-90S MAN (Enrique), Monday, 18 September 2006 08:25 (seventeen years ago) link

so this guy is the David Denby of Over There?

gabbneb (gabbneb), Monday, 18 September 2006 09:08 (seventeen years ago) link

oh now that's just mean!

EARLY-90S MAN (Enrique), Monday, 18 September 2006 09:09 (seventeen years ago) link

apparently he tut-tuts la kidman for taking chanel's cheques. rrrrriiiggghhht.

EARLY-90S MAN (Enrique), Monday, 25 September 2006 09:59 (seventeen years ago) link

what d'you make of this?

Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Monday, 25 September 2006 10:10 (seventeen years ago) link

it's barely coherent!

EARLY-90S MAN (Enrique), Monday, 25 September 2006 10:17 (seventeen years ago) link

four weeks pass...
Check out the review of the Kidman tome in this month's Prospect. Ouch!

www.prospect-magazine.co.uk/article_details.php?id=7891

Pete W (peterw), Monday, 23 October 2006 09:51 (seventeen years ago) link

Makes you want to read the book straightaway, doesn't it?

Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Monday, 23 October 2006 10:00 (seventeen years ago) link

hahaha excellent. oddly placed in 'prospect'.

benrique (Enrique), Monday, 23 October 2006 10:13 (seventeen years ago) link

I read about 30 pgs at the bookshop this weekend. His remarks on The Portrait of a Lady and, um, lesser Kidman fare like Malice are more thoughtful than I expected.

Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Monday, 23 October 2006 10:24 (seventeen years ago) link

time to pour out a 40 (or not) for DT.

they'll probably replace him with someone even worse though.

benrique (Enrique), Monday, 30 October 2006 13:18 (seventeen years ago) link

I expect that the column will be quietly discontinued, as I suspect it was only ever set up for DT's benefit.

Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Monday, 30 October 2006 13:25 (seventeen years ago) link

yeah but there'll probably be some sort of film column in its place. columns shouldn't really be set up for benefit of writers on the whole!

benrique (Enrique), Monday, 30 October 2006 13:27 (seventeen years ago) link

Doubt it; less columns, more space for lists! You know what the IoS is like.

Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Monday, 30 October 2006 13:31 (seventeen years ago) link

aw hell no

does that '#1' imply he's done a transfer. ffs!

benrique (Enrique), Friday, 3 November 2006 10:18 (seventeen years ago) link

Guy's gotta work.

Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Friday, 3 November 2006 10:25 (seventeen years ago) link

dude is nearing retirement age.

benrique (Enrique), Friday, 3 November 2006 10:28 (seventeen years ago) link

There's no more retirement age; the thrusting Thatcherkid-driven economy can't afford it.

Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Friday, 3 November 2006 11:17 (seventeen years ago) link

has anyone else read the kidman book? i think it's been very harshly treated, for the most part.

toby (tsg20), Friday, 3 November 2006 13:49 (seventeen years ago) link

Yes. In one word: EWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW

Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Friday, 3 November 2006 13:51 (seventeen years ago) link

Now you know what it's like for the rest of us whenever you go on about Amanda Platell.

Toby is right - it's been extremely poorly reviewed. Especially by that clown Raphael. I don't think it's a great book, but it's not nearly as salacious as the reviews led you to believe. It could have done with being a bit more salicious, if you ask me, more Bunuellian in its pursuit of that obscure object of desire.

Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Friday, 3 November 2006 13:59 (seventeen years ago) link

I wonder if Alba has read it?!

Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Friday, 3 November 2006 14:00 (seventeen years ago) link

why is raphael a clown? he wrote funney review.

benrique (Enrique), Friday, 3 November 2006 14:03 (seventeen years ago) link

If you were any good at keeping up, Trousse, you'll find I stopped the Platell stuff the best part of a year ago.

I don't know about "Bunuellian" but the term "Jonathan Kingian" springs more readily to mind with the Kidman book.

Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Friday, 3 November 2006 14:06 (seventeen years ago) link

And the term "three long times" springs to mind whenever I remind myself that I have been remiss wrt "keeping up" with your writ(h)ing, Marcello!

Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Friday, 3 November 2006 14:13 (seventeen years ago) link

Behave, or I'm playing "There's No One Quite Like Grandma" next Friday!

Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Friday, 3 November 2006 14:18 (seventeen years ago) link

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/story/0,,1941161,00.html

there can be no defence of this!!!

it must be at LEAST the twentieth thing DT has written wehre he includes a fucking list of films he liked from 1974.

awful, awful, awful.

benrique (Enrique), Tuesday, 7 November 2006 09:35 (seventeen years ago) link

not to mention that the actual idea of a film moratorium is mark cousins's (and it's fkn stupid anyway: film is a business for christ's sake) idea from about four years ago anyway.

benrique (Enrique), Tuesday, 7 November 2006 09:55 (seventeen years ago) link

I will read the Kidman.

Alba (Alba), Tuesday, 7 November 2006 10:52 (seventeen years ago) link

DT's 'Suspects' has been reissued, I notice: http://www.noexit.co.uk/titles/suspects_329.php

Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Tuesday, 7 November 2006 11:17 (seventeen years ago) link

The Grauniad piece stops just short of saying that it were all fields round here.

Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Tuesday, 7 November 2006 12:03 (seventeen years ago) link

two months pass...
What's this pork pie fixation? Is DT angling for a 2-Tone revival?

Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Wednesday, 24 January 2007 10:41 (seventeen years ago) link

three months pass...
dear god plz put him out of his misery

...Fast Food Nation, which is quite simply a sane, decent, liberal do-gooder preaching to the converted.

how does he shot grammar?

From the very start, the best thing about Linklater was his generosity to people. You could call it kindness, or openness, except that by the time it came to giving a second run to Ethan Hawke and Julie Delpy it looked like the sort of benevolence that has murder at the back of its mind. Is it possible that Linklater has never quite worked these things out?

dear god this is the kind of pretentious bilge old dave would have called, rightly, 'sophomoric'. what the fuck does he even think he means?

The struggle between sophomoric novelitis and rigorous over-organisation is enough to make you scream. Hawke is so alarmingly ingratiating that he becomes fit to play a psycho killer, and Delpy is boxed into a corner of being far too smart for her own good.

the bit about delpy is typical chauvinist bullshit but in general how is criticizing the characters for not being dave's kind of people any kind of criticism? hawke is kind of ingratiating: yes, and?

the piece kind of unfolds in the end -- the psycho killer is a reference to the entirely shallow 'strangers on a train'. terrible.

That one guy that quit, Friday, 27 April 2007 09:26 (seventeen years ago) link

I'd like DT to write some pieces untypical of him - say, in the style of Tim Westwood.

Marcello Carlin, Friday, 27 April 2007 10:26 (seventeen years ago) link

ingratiating = grating

Dr Morbius, Friday, 27 April 2007 16:18 (seventeen years ago) link

I knew when I saw this thread revived that it would be NRQ moaning about David Thomson again.

admrl, Friday, 27 April 2007 16:23 (seventeen years ago) link

Nine years later, they met again in Paris. It was like a young man from Austin turning into Henry James' Gilbert Osmond (The Portrait of a Lady). And I think it screwed Linklater up for good on the lockjaw of story - his head seemed to set in concrete.
A puzzling sentence, a semantic train wreck; but he's right about Hawke's quiet creepiness.

Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Friday, 27 April 2007 17:31 (seventeen years ago) link

hi adam!

That one guy that quit, Friday, 27 April 2007 17:58 (seventeen years ago) link

was martin luther king "moaning"? was gandhi just some kind of sourpuss?

That one guy that quit, Friday, 27 April 2007 17:59 (seventeen years ago) link

They did go on a bit.

admrl, Friday, 27 April 2007 18:13 (seventeen years ago) link

I only just now found out "that one guy that quit" was NRQ.

Eric H., Friday, 27 April 2007 18:30 (seventeen years ago) link

you couldn't tell???

admrl, Friday, 27 April 2007 18:32 (seventeen years ago) link

Not really. Without looking at usernames, I could only ever tell a post by Morbs and Geir.

Eric H., Friday, 27 April 2007 19:30 (seventeen years ago) link

I know, I'm just kidding.

admrl, Friday, 27 April 2007 19:32 (seventeen years ago) link

Oh, I just now realized admrl was adamrl.

Eric H., Friday, 27 April 2007 19:33 (seventeen years ago) link

it's nice to have a signature style, I guess.

Dr Morbius, Friday, 27 April 2007 19:38 (seventeen years ago) link

seven months pass...

http://arts.guardian.co.uk/filmandmusic/story/0,,2223079,00.html

hey look everybody, it's the worst article ever.

That one guy that hit it and quit it, Friday, 7 December 2007 12:05 (sixteen years ago) link

one month passes...

soundbite of him this morning on NPR praising the "courage" of Heath Ledger, "a young MANLY actor," in playing gay. What a colostomy bag.

Dr Morbius, Wednesday, 23 January 2008 20:43 (sixteen years ago) link

oh c'mon – they probably woke him early, whilst dreaming of Gene Tierney.

Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Wednesday, 23 January 2008 20:51 (sixteen years ago) link

eight months pass...

Was flicking through his new book in Waterstones a few days ago, "Have You Seen..." or whatever it's called. There's more unsettlingly abrasive dirty old manning, referring to Mary Astor's "fuckability" in The Maltese Falcon, for instance.

Freedom, Wednesday, 8 October 2008 14:10 (fifteen years ago) link

unsettlingly abrasive dirty old manning

http://www.comedycv.co.uk/bernardmanning/2002-november-bernard-manning.jpg

A. FIND MISSING LINK B. PUT IT TOGETHER C. BANG! (Marcello Carlin), Wednesday, 8 October 2008 14:22 (fifteen years ago) link

is it DOMing when the subject is so old she's dead? I testify to Errol Flynn's and Joel McCrea's fuckability.

Dr Morbius, Wednesday, 8 October 2008 14:28 (fifteen years ago) link

Well, it's all imagery isn't it (see also "Pictures Of Lily" and "she's been dead since 1929") so it's probably a tribute to Astor that in her prime she can still be thought of as "fuckable." I'd like to see a lot more of that sort of frankness in film studies writing.

A. FIND MISSING LINK B. PUT IT TOGETHER C. BANG! (Marcello Carlin), Thursday, 9 October 2008 11:02 (fifteen years ago) link

And the term "three long times" springs to mind whenever I remind myself that I have been remiss wrt "keeping up" with your writ(h)ing, Marcello!
― Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Friday, 3 November 2006

I read this a few times yesterday but still don't understand it.

I recently finished a slow lingering savouring perusal of the Kidman book. It is terrific.

the pinefox, Thursday, 9 October 2008 11:57 (fifteen years ago) link

Did you wipe up afterwards?

A. FIND MISSING LINK B. PUT IT TOGETHER C. BANG! (Marcello Carlin), Thursday, 9 October 2008 12:07 (fifteen years ago) link

Cannot, for the life of me, fathom the appeal of Nicole Kidman

Ich Ber ein Binliner (Tom D.), Thursday, 9 October 2008 12:15 (fifteen years ago) link

There's more DOMing in the piece on Dead Calm, complaining about Nicole Kidman not swimming naked or something. But what's jarring is not so much the DOMing per se as how it sits amidst the general - as j.d. put it upthread - regal tone.

Freedom, Thursday, 9 October 2008 13:26 (fifteen years ago) link

The piece on Dead Calm in Have You Seen?, that is.

Freedom, Thursday, 9 October 2008 13:27 (fifteen years ago) link

Yeah, I think I'll wait until it's £2.99 in World's End Oxfam before I pick that new tome up.

A. FIND MISSING LINK B. PUT IT TOGETHER C. BANG! (Marcello Carlin), Thursday, 9 October 2008 13:57 (fifteen years ago) link

It isn't his DOMing that's the problem, it's his PASSANTINOing.

Freedom, Thursday, 9 October 2008 14:17 (fifteen years ago) link

Someone post the list of the 1000 movies in his new book pls thx.

Eric H., Monday, 20 October 2008 13:19 (fifteen years ago) link

I thumbed through the book this weekend: some of the entries are slapdash, but it's definitely something I want on my table this Christmas.

Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Monday, 20 October 2008 13:25 (fifteen years ago) link

Gosh, yes. So do I! That's a good idea.

the pinefox, Monday, 20 October 2008 13:39 (fifteen years ago) link

This about six months after DT and others were raving on about the New Golden Age Of American Cinema. Make up your minds, chaps.

A. FIND MISSING LINK B. PUT IT TOGETHER C. BANG! (Marcello Carlin), Monday, 20 October 2008 14:18 (fifteen years ago) link

Thumbing through his new directory of films is impossible since all the copies I've seen in the bookshops are sealed.

I saw his Kidman book for two quid in the charity shop in Saturday, thumbed through it and decided there were much better things to spend two quid on.

A. FIND MISSING LINK B. PUT IT TOGETHER C. BANG! (Marcello Carlin), Monday, 20 October 2008 14:19 (fifteen years ago) link

I enjoy Enrique's mounting exasperation throughout this thread - the bit quoted from Thomson about Before Sunset is pricelss.

Freedom, Monday, 20 October 2008 16:12 (fifteen years ago) link

three months pass...

Really liking "Have You Seen?", although it's infuriating that there aren't more indexes; how much effort would it have been to have chucked in an index by director, for example?

toby, Sunday, 15 February 2009 12:45 (fifteen years ago) link

enjoy Enrique's mounting exasperation throughout this thread

more where that came from, fella.

^^ one of enriques sincere posts (special guest stars mark bronson), Sunday, 15 February 2009 12:47 (fifteen years ago) link

new book also out now, in USA only je crois!!

the pinefox, Sunday, 15 February 2009 13:10 (fifteen years ago) link

it's available here pretty easily

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Try-Tell-Story-David-Thomson/dp/0375412131/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1234703528&sr=8-1

i hope it's only the first volume. childhood memoirs not usually my bag; but if he does one on being 18-35ish (ie up to when he wrote the biographical dictionary), i'd be stoked. i remember him writing a thing about choosing to go to the ldn school of film technique over oxford once.

^^ one of enriques sincere posts (special guest stars mark bronson), Sunday, 15 February 2009 13:15 (fifteen years ago) link

I'd usually wouldn't go for it either, but maybe going to the cinema at wartime, etc. might be really readable, who knows?

Just looking at a review a rev of 'Have you seen?' and the head-scratching snap judgements thing comes up again (as above in this thread when discussing the "biographical dictionary"). Haven't read either book, but snap judgements alongside considered opinion sounds attractive to me.

xyzzzz__, Sunday, 15 February 2009 13:34 (fifteen years ago) link

two weeks pass...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/2009/feb/27/michelle-williams-heath-ledger

this is dt running through an imdb listing, afaict.

Judd Nelson (special guest stars mark bronson), Monday, 2 March 2009 09:53 (fifteen years ago) link

one month passes...

He's published a few Guardian pieces lately; I just read this one:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/2009/apr/10/movies-economic-recession

Really not very convincing. Sure, movie might not now match what it did then - but I don't see much point in saying so. Quite odd the relish he takes in simply lambasting the present. And the assertion that movies now don't aim to move people sounds not only false but like something he knows is untrue. What about all the bad schlocky romances and whatnot that are made all the time? Might as well say not that movies should be more moving, but that they should be tougher (as screwball can indeed be).

the pinefox, Tuesday, 21 April 2009 13:20 (fifteen years ago) link

one month passes...

stevie t, i challenge u to get to the end of this!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/2009/jun/19/christian-bale-david-thomson

"Christian Bale is a real movie actor.

Don't be surprised."

FREE DOM AND ETHAN (special guest stars mark bronson), Friday, 19 June 2009 08:22 (fourteen years ago) link

now I can't bear to read him.

Oh but it seems as though you can.

Tracer Hand, Friday, 19 June 2009 11:07 (fourteen years ago) link

Seems a reasonable enough piece to me.

Dingbod Kesterson, Friday, 19 June 2009 12:26 (fourteen years ago) link

eight months pass...

State of the Union:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRavO6E2Ihk

Freedom, Monday, 22 February 2010 15:51 (fourteen years ago) link

seven months pass...

http://www.lrb.co.uk/blog/2010/10/12/david-thomson/heath-ledger/

durrr

Actors don’t lodge in the culture as once they did. They are a type of celebrity now.

durrrrrrrrrrrr

rmde @ the romo dumplings (history mayne), Thursday, 14 October 2010 10:05 (thirteen years ago) link

one year passes...

DT does his death-of-cinema thing, parses S&S and "Fuck Scarface":

http://www.tnr.com/article/books-and-arts/magazine/107218/not-dead-just-dying?page=0,0

kizz my hairy irish azz (Dr Morbius), Saturday, 22 September 2012 13:49 (eleven years ago) link

three weeks pass...

Any thoughts on his new book or is it more of the same?

Here he is with the classic "Poème Électronique." Good track (Marcello Carlin), Thursday, 18 October 2012 09:32 (eleven years ago) link

two months pass...

hey someone got me this for Xmas. so far it is not bad, altho not particularly mind-blowing either.

If I was a carpenter, and you were a douchebag (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 27 December 2012 19:54 (eleven years ago) link

When [David O.] Selznick was just fourteen, his father, the pioneer Lewis J. Selznick (born in Lithuania), had sent a cheeky cable to the beleaguered tsar (and, at the same time, to the American press):

"When I was a boy in Russia your police treated my people very bad. However no hard feelings. Hear you are now out of work. If you will come to New York can give you fine position acting in pictures. Salary no object. Reply my expense. Regards you and family."

If I was a carpenter, and you were a douchebag (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 28 December 2012 16:53 (eleven years ago) link

one year passes...

How is the Nicole Kidman entry? Hot or not?

Josh in Chicago, Tuesday, 27 May 2014 19:09 (ten years ago) link

on Cranston:
Long-form television is the narrative form that has transcended movies in the way, once, the novel surpassed cave paintings

yow! get this guy on ilx

slam dunk, Wednesday, 28 May 2014 18:48 (ten years ago) link

I am part of a weekly Best Show on WFMU get-together on Skype and AP Mike was reading the other day from Thomson on the Marx Brothers...it is totally batshit crazy, one of the weirdest things I've ever read by him. But highly entertaining. Check it out.

Iago Galdston, Wednesday, 28 May 2014 20:29 (ten years ago) link

James Franco:… If anyone can get films made of As I Lay Dying and The Sound and the Fury in this world and time, you have to hand it to that guy—it doesn’t matter if the films are any good, he is an operator. … He is immensely sympathetic and entirely implausible; he has over ninety credits already—and I promised only a few hundred words. He is Gatsby—and better him than Leonardo DiCaprio!

v otm

Οὖτις, Wednesday, 28 May 2014 20:39 (ten years ago) link

fwiw that television quote is perhaps the first truly hateful thing I've noticed Thomson write

xelab V¸¸ (imago), Wednesday, 28 May 2014 21:54 (ten years ago) link

breaking bad is a good show but it turns people crazy

Kwotch Pawasites - Wrong Or Right (wins), Wednesday, 28 May 2014 21:55 (ten years ago) link

it's entertaining & manages its tone skilfully

xelab V¬¬ (imago), Wednesday, 28 May 2014 21:56 (ten years ago) link

It did occur to me that the extended narratives of these big production value TV shows essentially transforms them into 12 hour movies.

Josh in Chicago, Wednesday, 28 May 2014 23:32 (ten years ago) link

with repeating hour-long episodic cycles of tension and release, like any great movie

xelab V¸¸ (imago), Thursday, 29 May 2014 07:47 (ten years ago) link

all based on The Godfather

zzzzzzzzzzz

images of war violence and historical smoking (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 29 May 2014 10:35 (ten years ago) link

In Have You Seen…? he does devote individual entries to some television series (Python, The Singing Detective, Sopranos). With the latter he comes to the conclusion that because the show went on too long (?), that James Gandolfini/Tony Soprano was essentially a bore (??) and that because there was no closure, as such, it is inferior to…The Godfather. Yawn yawn yawn, Howard Hawks, zz zz zzz Cary Grant, maybe it’s time to give someone else a chance to write this.

one year passes...

Not new, but an interesting review of the Biog Dic by Clive James: http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2011/06/hollywood-a-love-story/308501/

Freedom, Monday, 1 June 2015 09:47 (nine years ago) link

Often spot-on, sometimes creepy

This is coming from a Diana 'fan'.

xyzzzz__, Monday, 1 June 2015 09:50 (nine years ago) link

five months pass...
eight years pass...

Got a thrift-shop copy of this today, cheap and in good shape. 1967, his first book--didn't realize he went that far back.

https://i.postimg.cc/NMKk0sZ5/dt.jpg

clemenza, Sunday, 3 March 2024 00:51 (three months ago) link


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