― fletrejet, Tuesday, 21 January 2003 17:50 (10 years ago) Permalink
We tried to revive it this year but the school we go to now has serious players who came and wanted to play w/ us and they were very anal about all the rules and also they actually had decks with, y'know, a strategy. Plus protection for all the cards and they wouldn't stop talking about rare cards and such- I'm a geek, but ya gotta draw the line somewhere. So now it's dud.
― Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Tuesday, 21 January 2003 18:11 (10 years ago) Permalink
― nickalicious (nickalicious), Tuesday, 21 January 2003 18:14 (10 years ago) Permalink
― nickalicious (nickalicious), Tuesday, 21 January 2003 18:15 (10 years ago) Permalink
Yeah, Magic is a game that completely falls apart when people start to take it seriously. It quickly becomes that only certain cards in certain types of decks have a chance of winning, and often in very boring, cheepo, lucky-draw fashion.
Casual play is ok, but is still too expensive.
― fletrejet, Tuesday, 21 January 2003 18:19 (10 years ago) Permalink
― toraneko (toraneko), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 00:35 (10 years ago) Permalink
― Vinnie (vprabhu), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 06:14 (10 years ago) Permalink
― Justyn Dillingham (Justyn Dillingham), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 07:34 (10 years ago) Permalink
if you're going to play magic, you MUST play by tournament rules. you needn't bother playing if there are no limits placed on the composition of the deck. wizards of the coast probably still publishes its "restricted/banned" card list as well. check it out.
when i was about 15 to 16 i played in magic tournaments EVERY sunday, and played recreationally with friends most evenings. yes, you could say that it was a very signifigant part of that time in my very sad teenaged life. at one point in the remote northern alberta town of 35,000 i grew up in there were three comic shops that all pushed magic quite heavily and at least a couple more places where the cards were available. some people took it VERY seriously.
i won't argue that magic is a tremendous cash sucker, and ultimately it taught me nothing about anything (there is little about the game that transfers to other pursuits) but there is a tremendous beauty to the inner workings of the game. it's not just about how much money you spend on it. in tournament settings, i was able to consistently trounce educated adult men with high-paying jobs (engineers, systems analysts) simply by spending a lot of time evaluating how the cards in my deck worked together. quite often the answer is not an "expensive" card but four cheap, nasty ones.
― fields of salmon (fieldsofsalmon), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 18:20 (10 years ago) Permalink
― fields of salmon (fieldsofsalmon), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 18:21 (10 years ago) Permalink
if you're going to play magic, you MUST play by tournament rules.
Why? I mean, in a tournament of course you do, but what about those of us who are, err, "casual players" as it were and just want a nice game to waste some time with as opposed to a weapon to "consistently trounce educated adult men with high-paying jobs"?
― Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 23:52 (10 years ago) Permalink
― fletrejet, Thursday, 23 January 2003 00:28 (10 years ago) Permalink
dude i was like fifteen ...
― fields of salmon (fieldsofsalmon), Thursday, 23 January 2003 05:29 (10 years ago) Permalink
― A Nairn (moretap), Thursday, 23 January 2003 05:51 (10 years ago) Permalink
Haha, maybe that was a bit too nasty on my part, but still- why not play any way you bloody please (or was that "You MUST..." comment just the way you saw it when you were 15?)
― Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Thursday, 23 January 2003 11:32 (10 years ago) Permalink
― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Thursday, 23 January 2003 18:24 (10 years ago) Permalink
I'm going to be branded a geek now.. aren't I?
― Christopher (Christopher), Monday, 3 February 2003 22:41 (10 years ago) Permalink
― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Monday, 3 February 2003 22:44 (10 years ago) Permalink
― webber (webber), Tuesday, 4 February 2003 00:07 (10 years ago) Permalink
Let's count the ways we could parse that sentence, hmm?
― Chris P (Chris P), Tuesday, 4 February 2003 01:41 (10 years ago) Permalink
A lot of Magic players are homophobic (in my experience) and in order to throw them off of their game, I would wear a shirt that symbolized gay pride.
What's really scary is that I'm thinking about playing in a sealed deck PTQ in a couple of weeks just to see if I can still compete after not playing for years.
― Christopher (Christopher), Tuesday, 4 February 2003 16:24 (10 years ago) Permalink
* (the one where you start with no cards in your card, draw one of your choice per turn, and no card can be played twice? It's kinda fun...)
― Gregory Henry (Gregory Henry), Sunday, 18 April 2004 14:34 (9 years ago) Permalink
― stephen morris (stephen morris), Sunday, 18 April 2004 16:35 (9 years ago) Permalink
― latebloomer (latebloomer), Sunday, 18 April 2004 17:24 (9 years ago) Permalink
The "90-95% super homophobe" players mentioned above = DUD. If I was rich (xpost it's expensive xpost) I'd probably play Magic Online, and not have to see the fat guys with "horribly nasal and stereotypically nerdy voices" that unfortunately define the game.
― Richard K (Richard K), Tuesday, 3 August 2004 03:55 (8 years ago) Permalink
― teeny (teeny), Tuesday, 3 August 2004 04:06 (8 years ago) Permalink
i've been having a lot of "fun" playing with the old cards I rescued from my mom's house. i refuse to spend another cent on the game, however.
― ian, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 20:09 (5 years ago) Permalink
a couple years ago i went to a card & comix shop and built a decent blue-white deck for like $4.00, but all the newer card editions just had all these new retarded esoteric abilities that i had no idea about
― elmo argonaut, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 20:16 (5 years ago) Permalink
also, the art was all these, like, cyber dragons and BULLSHIT
― elmo argonaut, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 20:21 (5 years ago) Permalink
We should start an ILG thread where we play against each other using SCANNERS.
― nickalicious, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 20:25 (5 years ago) Permalink
i only played magic for the first time a few weeks ago, how weird is that? i was intimidated by the kids who played it in high school, but it's not half as complicated as i thought.
― bell_labs, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 20:50 (5 years ago) Permalink
you should have been more intimidated by their allowances
― El Tomboto, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 20:56 (5 years ago) Permalink
and/or dedication to blowing every dollar earned at the drive-thru window sunday 5am-1:30pm on crazy junk instead of like cigarettes and cds
― El Tomboto, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 20:57 (5 years ago) Permalink
that is correct i am calling you bustas out
what are you talking about, i pinched a franklin from my dad's wallet to buy a mox jet
― elmo argonaut, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 21:01 (5 years ago) Permalink
haha, i think i was most intimidated by their cliquish aspie superiority complexes.
i think it's really fun now though.
― bell_labs, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 21:03 (5 years ago) Permalink
ok http://www.wunderland.com/WTS/Andy/ProjectEBAY/MagicCards.html these prices are so retarded omg
― El Tomboto, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 21:06 (5 years ago) Permalink
people should all be blown up
in my middle school the biggest fight i got into was between pog players and m:tg players
― max, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 21:09 (5 years ago) Permalink
i was obviously a magic player
green & white deck, in case anyone is wondering
― max, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 21:10 (5 years ago) Permalink
― deeznuts, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 21:12 (5 years ago) Permalink
if i remember those years correctly i was more worried about the shame my seminoles starter jacket would bring me after danny wuerrfle's gators pounced on them in the orange bowl than anything having to do with those fucking things
― deeznuts, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 21:14 (5 years ago) Permalink
I used to play magic back in the mid-nineties, I still have a hundreds and hundreds of those cards in some box around here. I never paid much for them though, because I stole most of them from bookstores. I wonder if that stuff is worth something these days, the oldest cards I have are from Revised Edition or whatever it was called.
― Tuomas, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 21:24 (5 years ago) Permalink
god, my nerd days were spent playing Avalon Hill wargames. and banging chicks of course
― brownie, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 21:26 (5 years ago) Permalink
my best nerd days are ahead of me still.
― bell_labs, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 21:27 (5 years ago) Permalink
mine did not look quite as good as this one but I got pretty good
― El Tomboto, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 21:38 (5 years ago) Permalink
i had a revised shivan dragon worth $50
― max, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 21:38 (5 years ago) Permalink
and my color selections were more noise
haha shivan dragon. back in 1995 my friend's proudest accomplishment was owning 4 shivan dragons. I wonder if those cards are worth anything today.
― burt_stanton, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 22:04 (5 years ago) Permalink
blue + black deck, my sengir vampires and royal assassins were so so gangster.
― deej, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 22:10 (5 years ago) Permalink
i had two revised royal assassins
maybe more, hell if i remember
― deej, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 22:11 (5 years ago) Permalink
at my 10th bday party i beat the rich kid in magic even tho i had no allowance, i had birthday money and was a HUSTLER with trades
― deej, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 22:12 (5 years ago) Permalink
i think sometimes i threw in some green too, but only if u could throw all mana down first turn and i would use it solely for my force of nature
― deej, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 22:18 (5 years ago) Permalink
i have a shivan dragon signed by the lady what painted it ;_;
― Jimmy The Mod Awaits The Return Of His Beloved, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 22:25 (5 years ago) Permalink
haha i think i some signed by artists too :-/
― deej, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 22:34 (5 years ago) Permalink
yeah i kept that shivan solely because it was worth money since i played green/white almost exclusively, i shoulda sold it off
― max, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 22:42 (5 years ago) Permalink
I saw this stuff mostly when I was in college - 94 - 98. I was too busy playing (then) horrible blues rock, drinking and trying to get laid. Trying being the WAY operative word there.
― B.L.A.M., Tuesday, 23 October 2007 22:53 (5 years ago) Permalink
I sold a revised "Fork" for about 50 pounds.
― Ronan, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 22:59 (5 years ago) Permalink
reading a thread for the first time and then realising you posted to it four years ago c/d
― webber, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 23:44 (5 years ago) Permalink
Okay guys how similar is Pokemon the card game to Magic: the Gathering? Bcz I am getting stupidly good @ Pokemon (which did eat up all my spare $$$ this summer...sheesh Abbott).
― Abbott, Wednesday, 24 October 2007 01:00 (5 years ago) Permalink
Y'all heard about The Eye of Judgment?
It's a Magic type game for PS3 that uses real cards and a camera, just came out. The camera scans the cards as you put them into play and then the monsters on the cards battle it out on your TV. The game keeps track of all the stats and shit too, of course. I haven't played it but it's getting decent reviews.
― marmotwolof, Wednesday, 24 October 2007 01:27 (5 years ago) Permalink
I probably spent twenty bucks on it total, maybe thirty. It was one summer, a fun thing, a moment in time, a nice little cultural artifact.
This is me w/ M:TG btw, but I've also done the "use Portal decks and ignore most of the rules" thing.
― marmotwolof, Wednesday, 24 October 2007 01:31 (5 years ago) Permalink
I found a coffee table on the streets of Madison once whose top was a glass plate covering a tiling of just a single magic card. I don't recall what it was, but it must have been the "unwanted" card.
― libcrypt, Wednesday, 24 October 2007 02:12 (5 years ago) Permalink
there was originally some card that involved ripping one of your opponents cards that got "banned" under the sanctioned rules...have no idea what it was called.
I had a mox sapphire! and sold basically everything i had owned at some point in '98 (when i was 19) probably for like 450 on ebay...
― johnny crunch, Wednesday, 24 October 2007 02:25 (5 years ago) Permalink
spent several hours on saturday night playing Magic with ian and was pretty consistently beaten by his blue & black deck.
― elmo argonaut, Monday, 29 October 2007 14:04 (5 years ago) Permalink
people used to call blue and black decks "bruise" decks.
― Ronan, Monday, 29 October 2007 14:16 (5 years ago) Permalink
apparently people play creatures in type 2 nowadays? I am sort of suspicious of this, it's not pokemon. I wish I hadn't lost all my cards.
― Gravel Puzzleworth, Monday, 29 October 2007 14:29 (5 years ago) Permalink
i am so mad i couldn't find my old white/green deck when i was home this weekend.
― ian, Monday, 29 October 2007 16:49 (5 years ago) Permalink
my favorite is the red & white deck.
― bell_labs, Monday, 29 October 2007 16:51 (5 years ago) Permalink
-- Ronan, Monday, October 29, 2007 9:16 AM (2 hours ago) Bookmark Link
― deej, Monday, 29 October 2007 16:53 (5 years ago) Permalink
red & white is a hard deck to play!
― max, Monday, 29 October 2007 16:54 (5 years ago) Permalink
there were good all red or all green decks around the time the "mirages" (was that its name) edition of cards came out.
― Ronan, Monday, 29 October 2007 18:22 (5 years ago) Permalink
Lightweights. I suspect Gravel may be hardcore, if he's referring to the fact that Morphling used to be the only playable creature.
Creatures are for Pokemon and Yu-Gi-Oh. Magic is a game of technique.
― s. morris, Monday, 29 October 2007 19:21 (5 years ago) Permalink
I can only say all this after spending way too much time sniping cards on eBay in order to play something like 3 times in the last year.
The fortunate thing is that Magic card prices seem to be way more stable than the dollar, so that's money in the bank folks.
― s. morris, Monday, 29 October 2007 19:23 (5 years ago) Permalink
I did Magic waaay early on. By the time I was too cool for it I gave everything to some neighborhood kid, if only I had sold it for $$$ ;_;
― Jordan, Monday, 29 October 2007 19:25 (5 years ago) Permalink
Was not at all impressed by Wizards Of The Coast's headquarters. It's like a mile from Ikea in Renton and looks like any other corporate headquarters. I at least expected animatronic dragons or constant fireworks displays or something other than reflective glass and a fucking fountain.
― s. morris, Monday, 29 October 2007 19:29 (5 years ago) Permalink
By the time I was too cool for it I gave everything to some neighborhood kid, if only I had sold it for $$$ ;_;
-- Jordan, Monday, October 29, 2007 2:25 PM (9 minutes ago) Bookmark Link
i did this too ;_;
― deej, Monday, 29 October 2007 19:35 (5 years ago) Permalink
jordan is leading my parallel life i think
type I was all about DUAL LANDS right?
my best deck was mostly blue, counterspells, those djinns that only cost 3 that were misprinted green; then red & white & green sprinkled in also...black was fairly worthless.
i miss my magic cards!@!!
― johnny crunch, Monday, 29 October 2007 19:59 (5 years ago) Permalink
black can be great if you play it right, especially with red or blue!
― max, Monday, 29 October 2007 20:00 (5 years ago) Permalink
i had a black/red deck for a long time but all my best cards were green/white so i tended to stick to that
my best deck was mostly blue, counterspells, those djinns that only cost 3 that were misprinted green
Now we're talking. Your mox sapphire alone would go for like $400 on eBay.
― s. morris, Monday, 29 October 2007 20:20 (5 years ago) Permalink
i know! damn my 19 yr old self!!
cant remember what else was in it. maybe JUGGERNAUTS? the (actual) green djinn that was 4/5 and only cost 4 to cast? dunno...
― johnny crunch, Monday, 29 October 2007 20:27 (5 years ago) Permalink
this dude, so bad ass:
― johnny crunch, Monday, 29 October 2007 20:55 (5 years ago) Permalink
so we have three decks now.
blue/black: all counterspell, hymm to tourach, serendib efreet, dark ritual, sengir vampire, demonic tutor etc. brainstorms & frantic search.
green/white: standard ernham djinn/serra angel/armageddon deck with sol ring, dual lands, savannahs, giant growth, savannah lions & llanowar elves.
red/green: needs taigas. blood lust/giant growth/kird ape. plus fireballs & 'bolts, assorted creatures and creature enhancers with an eye towards quick playability. i think the red/green deck has the maze of ith. there are also lots of coin-flipping cards in this one, like bottle of suleiman, mana clash and mijae djinn.
― ian, Wednesday, 27 February 2008 05:35 (5 years ago) Permalink
the blue/black deck also has some other kind of efreet that costs only 3 for a 4/4 flier, but the downside is that it lets the opponent draw three cards!!
― ian, Wednesday, 27 February 2008 05:37 (5 years ago) Permalink
Use that to cycle their deck
― Catsupppppppppppppp dude 茄蕃, Wednesday, 27 February 2008 05:44 (5 years ago) Permalink
-- ian, Tuesday, February 26, 2008 11:37 PM (21 minutes ago) Bookmark Link
Probably not worth it. If the main strategy of the deck is control through counters and discard it doesn't do a lot of good to give your opponent three cards to regain tempo/replenish their hand. Do you already have force spikes in there?
I need to sell my cards. Dual lands go for mad cash on eBay.
― s. morris, Wednesday, 27 February 2008 06:13 (5 years ago) Permalink
maze of ith is one of my favorite cards
― max, Wednesday, 27 February 2008 06:16 (5 years ago) Permalink
― Catsupppppppppppppp dude 茄蕃, Wednesday, 27 February 2008 06:19 (5 years ago) Permalink
It was a really fun game as far as I remember. And when I was 18, me and my friends figured out that a couple of bottles of whiskey and a marathon Magic tournament was far and away the best way to get through an acid comedown.
― chap, Wednesday, 27 February 2008 11:55 (5 years ago) Permalink
Picture, at least, is rad. I knew some folks about 15 years ago who did nothing but play Magic and do bong hits all day. I called their house the Maze of Ith.
― contenderizer, Wednesday, 27 February 2008 15:49 (5 years ago) Permalink
-- ian, Wednesday, February 27, 2008 5:37 AM (10 hours ago) Bookmark Link
i think it's an indentured djinn?
― bell_labs, Wednesday, 27 February 2008 15:57 (5 years ago) Permalink
lol @ maze of ith
― johnny crunch, Wednesday, 27 February 2008 16:00 (5 years ago) Permalink
maze of ith vs. mishra's factory
― bell_labs, Wednesday, 27 February 2008 16:01 (5 years ago) Permalink
Are you playing with restrictions and stuff?
― Gravel Puzzleworth, Wednesday, 27 February 2008 16:06 (5 years ago) Permalink
not particularly. there's only one demonic tutor in the black deck, though there could be two i guess. old habits, etc. also, only one sol ring in the green/white deck.
the indentured djinn is unnecessary (what with 4x serendib efreet and 4x sengir vamp) but still fun and low casting cost. i have no force spikes. i played from revised through about weatherlight, then again for mercadian masques. nothing since. i kind of want to pick up some tenth edition boosters, only because i don't want to buy birds of paradise on ebay.
― ian, Wednesday, 27 February 2008 17:35 (5 years ago) Permalink
I could also use some HOWLING MINEs.
― ian, Wednesday, 27 February 2008 18:55 (5 years ago) Permalink
also ideally, i would like some hypnotic specters so that i can take out the indentured djinns.
― ian, Wednesday, 27 February 2008 18:56 (5 years ago) Permalink
Ian, I played for about the same timeframe as you. Last summer a couple friends and I split a box of 10th and were pretty disappointed. What they do now is keep the current edition cards really simple/boring, and put the more interesting cards/cool mechanics in the expansions.
I had a sweet blue/white counterspell deck. Counterspells, disenchants, icy manipulators, and just a couple creatures to finish the job. I had these sweet 2/2 blue/white flying guys who didn't tap to attack, great two-way creature for a deck like that.
― call all destroyer, Wednesday, 27 February 2008 18:59 (5 years ago) Permalink
any one ever play online? not the WOTC approved pay-to-play but the janky lo-fi programs? Doesn't look like there's any for Macs.
Was immensely disappointed when I stumbled upon the Wizards of the Coast headquarters by. Had to pick up some shit at IKEA and it's like right down the road. There were no animitronic dragons flying around and no fireworks displays. Just some shitty modern building with reflective glass windows and a stupid fountain. DUD
― s. morris, Wednesday, 27 February 2008 19:23 (5 years ago) Permalink
-- s. morris, Monday, October 29, 2007 7:29 PM (3 months ago) Bookmark Link
― ian, Wednesday, 27 February 2008 19:29 (5 years ago) Permalink
and I was totally going to offer to mail you some force spikes. Not anymore, buster!
― s. morris, Wednesday, 27 February 2008 19:31 (5 years ago) Permalink
I would stay away from boosters, though. Stupidly expensive and you'll just end up with a bunch of worthless cards.
― s. morris, Wednesday, 27 February 2008 19:33 (5 years ago) Permalink
Also you'll hate yourself.
I think I'll hate myself just as much if I buy cards on ebay.
I'm not particularly competitive about it; the only person I play with regularly is bell_labs. I do all the deck construction, but I've run out of things to do with my backlog of cards. Any deck I make now will undoubtedly be much weaker than the ones we currently play with. As it is, the red/green deck is at a disadvantage.
― ian, Wednesday, 27 February 2008 19:37 (5 years ago) Permalink
Which of you nerds wants to sell me your old copy of the Talisman board game? Been missing that one lately and it's about as involved a game as I could possibly make time for now.
Oh yeah, I was at Gen Con/Origins '88 bitches! The gender ration at that con successfully cured me of RPGs for the last 20 years.
― Nate Carson, Friday, 29 February 2008 12:08 (5 years ago) Permalink
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
― bell_labs, Friday, 29 February 2008 16:03 (5 years ago) Permalink
pretty accurate actually!
You value knowledge, logic, and deceit. You love to pursue wisdom but also to manipulate and deceive. At your best, you are brilliant and progressive. At your worst, you are treacherous and cold. Your symbol is a water droplet. Your enemies are green and red.
― max, Friday, 29 February 2008 16:42 (5 years ago) Permalink
― ian, Friday, 29 February 2008 17:13 (5 years ago) Permalink
I'm making a green/black variation on necropotence using greed & dark heart of the wood combined with drain life/tutors/stream of life/elves that give me forests when they come into play.
― ian, Friday, 29 February 2008 17:14 (5 years ago) Permalink
also channel & initiates of the ebon hand for drain life.
rejuvenate? is that the gain 6 life for 4 card w/ cycling? that's a useful card for this deck.
elves that give me forests when they come into play LLANOWAR ELVES
see i'm learning!
― bell_labs, Friday, 29 February 2008 17:17 (5 years ago) Permalink
i can't find my danged bayous. i know i have two somewhere.
― ian, Friday, 29 February 2008 17:18 (5 years ago) Permalink
NO NOT LLANOWAR ELVES. that's a good, sensible guess though.
ones that let me find a forest card in my deck and put it into play.
wood elves? maybe.
so on sunday my roommate & i played 18 holes of golf then went and bought like $60 each of magic cards. shit is crazy now! they roll out new expansion blocks like every 4 months! (found this out after we just bought some random boxes)
anyway, it was pretty rad for the 7 hrs when we got stoned and opened all the packs, read everything, made decks and played. its still fun, but major diminishing returns(lol not hte card) for sure unless we spend $$ like every week on cards.
― johnny crunch, Wednesday, 9 July 2008 17:36 (4 years ago) Permalink
played a bit last night. thinking about getting back in semi-seriously.
― DUDE, I DON'T LOSE (call all destroyer), Wednesday, 10 June 2009 18:40 (3 years ago) Permalink
I was realllllly into Magic from like, 4th grade to 7th grade - like a 24/7 obsession. I was pretty good and read the magazines and websites on a daily basis - if I had more than $5 a week to spend on the game, I woulda been winning local tournaments left and right. Then one day I just completely lost interest. Thank god it was long before I had the potential to spend real money on the game. The funniest thing is that I looked up to all these local 20 year old guys who had the $$$$ for near-perfect decks. And in retrospect it's like, lol, I was looking up to some of the geekiest people ever.
Despite not really thinking about MtG for 10 years, I am bothered by how much info about the game is permanently lodged in my brain.
― iatee, Wednesday, 10 June 2009 18:59 (3 years ago) Permalink
I remember one point in time where I had this badass green deck made up of relatively cheap and common cards that allowed me to play a dozen creatures in 3 turns and actually compete w/ legit players. It was risky though, cause it was an all or nothing type deal, and I pretty much knew if I was gonna win or not as we drew our hands.
― iatee, Wednesday, 10 June 2009 19:04 (3 years ago) Permalink
Also there was this one time where I was about to win the local tournament (by tournament I mean like 12 players) and some guy who was watching was like "hey that card you're using, I think it's banned" and he showed me the magazine (The Duelist? I think) and it seemed like he was right, and so he went to the guy who owned the comic book store and that guy decided to just give me 2nd place even though I was winning.
LATER I went home and realized that the card was only banned for like Type 1.1 tournaments or some shit and we weren't playing that. That was the closest I ever got to winning a tournament. But I mean, I was a poor ass 11yo and these dudes were in their 20s - it was pretty hard to compete. The guy who tattled on me did a lot of hard drugs and when you're suburban 11yo it's pretty weird to hear someone talk about their hard drug use.
― iatee, Wednesday, 10 June 2009 19:11 (3 years ago) Permalink
i have vague memories of playing friendly games in the local card/comic shop's upstairs magic the gathering room (before it burned down) as like a 12 year old. dudes were basically nice but now that i'm a 20-something dude myself i'm not exactly going to be down w/playing against kids at some store. i will play magic the gathering the way i would do anything else--with my friends and over beers.
― DUDE, I DON'T LOSE (call all destroyer), Wednesday, 10 June 2009 19:23 (3 years ago) Permalink
Okayyy I just spent 10 minutes trying to figure/remember what card it was, and it was this one:
― iatee, Wednesday, 10 June 2009 19:29 (3 years ago) Permalink
xp was gonna caution u if u somehow meant really serious, the gameplay itself on a advanced/tourney level seems crazily intricate and difficult now just from reading a few articles but yea if thats ur def of semi-serious then more power 2 u itll be rad~
― johnny crunch, Wednesday, 10 June 2009 19:30 (3 years ago) Permalink
oh, adding to my geek cred - I also remember buying and reading about a dozen of the MtG fantasy-world novels
― iatee, Wednesday, 10 June 2009 19:36 (3 years ago) Permalink
oh yeah, i have had brief encounters with the magic aspie/dork tournament scene and it's def not for me. i just mean paying attention to cards, buying new cards, reading about stuff. it's a step above what i do now which is play with the same 5-6 decks i've had for five years or possibly longer.
― DUDE, I DON'T LOSE (call all destroyer), Wednesday, 10 June 2009 19:42 (3 years ago) Permalink
i have a bunch of cards signed by the artists that i got when i was 13. wonder if they're worth anything these days.
― (The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Wednesday, 10 June 2009 19:54 (3 years ago) Permalink
I seem to remember that cards being signed by artists actually didn't make them particularly valuable.
also, imo totally the golden era of the game: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revised_Edition_(Magic:_The_Gathering)
― iatee, Wednesday, 10 June 2009 19:58 (3 years ago) Permalink
they are doing some crazy mtg 2010 shit look @ this:
― johnny crunch, Wednesday, 10 June 2009 21:43 (3 years ago) Permalink
― ian, Wednesday, 10 June 2009 21:57 (3 years ago) Permalink
btw i have four decks ready to play at bell_labs' house--white/green green/redblue/blackgreen/black
obv i like green. (slow burner.gif)
― ian, Wednesday, 10 June 2009 21:58 (3 years ago) Permalink
the green/black is sort of an aborted necropotence/enchantress deck that i hustled together quickly, and we almost never use that one cuz it's an unlikely winner. when it works it works well, but that is not often :(
― ian, Wednesday, 10 June 2009 21:59 (3 years ago) Permalink
One card-printing error of note appeared on the card Serendib Efreet. This blue creature card was misprinted with a green border and a picture of another card, Ifh-Bíff Efreet. The name, mana cost and rules text were of Serendib Efreet, however. The Revised version is now the most common due to the limited print run of the original, intended versions.
Love this card, pack four of 'em in the blue/black deck.
― ian, Wednesday, 10 June 2009 22:00 (3 years ago) Permalink
i think shroud means it cant be the target of spells or effects
also, that is just some online series or something, not a real card. my bad
― johnny crunch, Wednesday, 10 June 2009 22:06 (3 years ago) Permalink
too many new terms & mechanics with each expansion = one of the reasons i stopped playing. the other main reason was... high school.
― ian, Wednesday, 10 June 2009 22:07 (3 years ago) Permalink
i kind of want 2 get into this but it seems deeply complicated in an unfun way?
― THE BATHYPELAGIC ZONE (Lamp), Thursday, 11 June 2009 01:03 (3 years ago) Permalink
yeah it seems it but if you have any affinity/familiarity with games in general i could teach you to play in about an hour.
― DUDE, I DON'T LOSE (call all destroyer), Thursday, 11 June 2009 03:23 (3 years ago) Permalink
yeah it's not a hard game to grasp, especially if yer just fuckin with the basic sets and not making any attempt to "stay current" or anything. i haven't bought magic cards in... a long time. not long enough that i'd be comfortable saying exactly, but a long time. years.
― ian, Thursday, 11 June 2009 03:58 (3 years ago) Permalink
yah i mean ill fuck w/ catan and zombies and bang and fukken dragonball rpg so i figure i can "get it" but everytime my friends start to explain it the whole thing seems really overly rule-y and limited. sad realness: i kind of just want 2 play because i like the pictures on the cards
― THE BATHYPELAGIC ZONE (Lamp), Thursday, 11 June 2009 04:37 (3 years ago) Permalink
been readin abt new sets and tournament decks this morning. don't even know where there's a decent game store anymore.
― DUDE, I DON'T LOSE (call all destroyer), Thursday, 11 June 2009 15:53 (3 years ago) Permalink
Funny that this got revived because they just announced a set of new rules two days ago to simplify and streamline the game, and make it easier to learn. (Naturally, the hardcore players are up in arms.) Or did you revive because you heard about the new rules, destroyer?
It is a pretty complicated game, but a lot of rules just cover unusual circumstances that rarely come up. The nice thing is most new cards are self-explanatory or intuitive after you've got the basic rules down.
― Vinnie, Thursday, 11 June 2009 19:49 (3 years ago) Permalink
i revived cause i had gotten together with some friends to play, a couple of us had mostly old cards and a couple had mostly new cards (so every game involved a shitload of reading). i read about the rule changes after that. not sure i'm down w/the new combat rules.
picked up 15 alara block boosters on saturday and am opening them now. this set is hilarious, it basically is forcing the issue and making ppl play 3-5 color decks. prob will be fun to put a deck together.
― DUDE, I DON'T LOSE (call all destroyer), Monday, 15 June 2009 01:45 (3 years ago) Permalink
^^^ pull that card out of your hat next time cad
― stone phillips i love u because u r my dad (Lamp), Monday, 15 June 2009 02:37 (3 years ago) Permalink
As an old school dungeon master, it's impossible for me to see Magic as anything but the game that destroyed the attention span of millions of potential RPGers.
And then they WOTC bought TSR, just to add insult to injury.
Total DUD I say!
― Nate Carson, Monday, 15 June 2009 11:11 (3 years ago) Permalink
xp i would definitely throw down w/a hatbunny card.
― DUDE, I DON'T LOSE (call all destroyer), Monday, 15 June 2009 13:20 (3 years ago) Permalink
this fan-created variant brought me back to the game after 13(!) years.
it's really fun and totally casual. you have a general that must be a legendary creature. all your cards must be one of your generals colors. you start with 40 life. you can use cards from every format. there is a ban list but it's just for the most broken unfun unfair cards.
the format is now officially supported with pre-constructed decks.
― Thee Macallan 18 Year, Friday, 11 November 2011 22:46 (1 year ago) Permalink
the one we used to do was called 250, basically you built a 250 card deck w/ at least 20 of each color, plus you played for ante (had to be a rare though), and could play Contract from Below which made it really fun - was such a great casual format and bascially all that was played at the store I went to for years - then the rules "committee" massively fucked it up, restricting Contract, then banning it, then not restricting or banning cards that were killing the format (mostly b/c most of them didn't even play anymore), then completely changing the rules, and now nobody plays it - meanwhile Commander got a ton of support officially, kinda makes me wonder how big 250 could have been at it been managed even remotely properly
― frogbs, Saturday, 12 November 2011 14:57 (1 year ago) Permalink
ok http://www.wunderland.com/WTS/Andy/ProjectEBAY/MagicCards.html these prices are so retarded omg― El Tomboto, Tuesday, October 23, 2007 4:06 PM (4 years ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalinkpeople should all be blown up― El Tomboto, Tuesday, October 23, 2007 4:06 PM (4 years ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink
― El Tomboto, Tuesday, October 23, 2007 4:06 PM (4 years ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalinkpeople should all be blown up
― El Tomboto, Tuesday, October 23, 2007 4:06 PM (4 years ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink
should see how high they are now! (would guess all of them have doubled in price since)
― frogbs, Saturday, 12 November 2011 14:59 (1 year ago) Permalink
lol you play magic as well as poker - ?
are people who pay that sort of money for magic cards people who are playing at a high enough level to be making bank off of it, or at least people who are close enough to delude themselves of same? or are they like IT professionals who don't know how to spend money
― thomp, Saturday, 12 November 2011 15:12 (1 year ago) Permalink
its some from both columns, I guess the one defensible thing about it is that they are almost like stock, and I don't think the prices have ever dropped - as time goes on they only get more rare, the only way they'll take a big fall is if the game dies out, which IMO is really not happening anytime soon. my one big purchase was about 6 years ago, I bought a dude's collection for $1400 with the intention of selling most of it over time, and honestly wish I hadn't dealt any of it, as the entire thing would be worth $6000+ today. here's a card that was worth about $15 at the time, check this out now:
btw I don't think many people are making much money off of playing the game (maybe like 1% of the players), but if you can predict the market for buying/selling certain cards you can definitely do well
― frogbs, Saturday, 12 November 2011 15:58 (1 year ago) Permalink
should i play the dark ascension prerelease tournament it means getting up at 8am on a saturday
― roborally.rar (Lamp), Friday, 20 January 2012 01:23 (1 year ago) Permalink
sealed? does the set look cool?
― iatee, Friday, 20 January 2012 01:25 (1 year ago) Permalink
lamp, do it for those of us who want to live vicariously through you and provide a full report
― call all destroyer, Friday, 20 January 2012 01:26 (1 year ago) Permalink
yeah its a sealed, $25 bucks gets you um some # of boosters (i think 9?) and a promo card.
i totaled up what it would cost me to complete my innistrad set on starcitygames and its like $90 + shipping/taxes. i hate myself sometimes
― roborally.rar (Lamp), Friday, 20 January 2012 01:54 (1 year ago) Permalink
haha don't do #2 you will find a complete set to be a white elephant. #1 sounds like a decent use of $25.
― iatee, Friday, 20 January 2012 01:57 (1 year ago) Permalink
only pay for cards that you will almost definitely play with + directly enjoy
― Mordy, Friday, 20 January 2012 01:59 (1 year ago) Permalink
well i dont have $90 to my name atm so theres no risk i was just curious. amusingly enough ive pulled two of the really expensive innistrad cards (snapcaster and one of the planeswalkers) from boosters so its mostly just cheap cards left
― Lamp, Friday, 20 January 2012 02:00 (1 year ago) Permalink
although i know for a fact you two are both way underestimating the pleasure i would get from having a complete card set
its mostly lol cuz you can buy a complete set of innistrad on ebay for like $110 bux atm
― Lamp, Friday, 20 January 2012 02:01 (1 year ago) Permalink
yeah I think I have a hard time seeing things from a collector's pov but I'm like aspie on the other side of the spectrum. 'what is this object's functional value for me'
anyway I will play anyone itt cockatrice tonight
― iatee, Friday, 20 January 2012 02:11 (1 year ago) Permalink
man i just started buying cards again. haven't played since ice age. shit is great.
i haven't played a physical match against a real opponent yet, just trying stuff out on cockatrice. i've won a couple games using decks assembled from cards i actually own. thinking about going out to the burbs for friday night magic tomorrow but worry about embarrassing myself horribly.
― adam, Friday, 20 January 2012 02:13 (1 year ago) Permalink
cockatrice is super fun but dudes keep busting out these like $$$ standard decks and annihilating me, would like to play against decks comparable to those found at a south louisiana gaming store.
― adam, Friday, 20 January 2012 02:16 (1 year ago) Permalink
yeah when i played iatee last he used a constructed deck that just destroyed me like i could not win
― Lamp, Friday, 20 January 2012 02:43 (1 year ago) Permalink
look i like the forbidden alchemy into unburial rites into sun titan into grave titan via 8 million rare dual lands as much as the next guy but at some point it turns into an unwinnable arms race
― adam, Friday, 20 January 2012 02:55 (1 year ago) Permalink
aw man I like the beauty of the unwinnable arms races, it becomes all about statistics and tailoring the perfect deck
― iatee, Friday, 20 January 2012 02:57 (1 year ago) Permalink
I mean I like the idea of it, I was very much against it when I was a kid and could afford exactly 3 of the cards needed to make said perfect deck
― iatee, Friday, 20 January 2012 02:58 (1 year ago) Permalink
totally. coming back to magic after 15 years, with the internet-enabled secondary market and a grownup's disposable income--these serious decks are somewhat attainable at this point but my mindset is still firmly in buying boosters, opening them up and making do with what i get.
of course i am learning, to which my recent ebay sprees can attest.
― adam, Friday, 20 January 2012 03:02 (1 year ago) Permalink
haha I still don't have a grownup's disposable income I just play online
― iatee, Friday, 20 January 2012 03:03 (1 year ago) Permalink
nb by serious i mean stromkirk noble rather than 4x snapcaster
― adam, Friday, 20 January 2012 03:04 (1 year ago) Permalink
this is why im only playing w/friends or booster draft/sealed
― Lamp, Friday, 20 January 2012 03:08 (1 year ago) Permalink
i'm gonna play in the dark ascension prerelease. haven't played since invasion but made a new friend with a sick collection and played a couple cube drafts with him; was ill.
is cockatrice the new good online app? what about magic workstation?
i will also play people itt online. suppose i might as well get cockatrice
― chillin in the volvo, listenin' to alva-noto (fennel cartwright), Friday, 20 January 2012 03:55 (1 year ago) Permalink
cockatrice is way better than workstation!
― call all destroyer, Friday, 20 January 2012 03:56 (1 year ago) Permalink
it's way better in that it doesn't crash / is super easy to set up and use
but the deck builder really sucks and there is no sealed generator
― iatee, Friday, 20 January 2012 04:00 (1 year ago) Permalink
dark ascension seems pretty neat so far, there's a card that raises all Zombies from the dead and then literally says "Destroy all Humans"
sucks to be like the one dude playing the hypothetical "Human" deck and just get totally hosed. guess you have to accept your fate
― frogbs, Friday, 20 January 2012 04:02 (1 year ago) Permalink
was thinking about a human deck for dark ascension actually, the human token generators + champ of the parish + all the innistrad human-centric equivalent seems like a good time. until the zombie apocalypse.
― adam, Friday, 20 January 2012 04:04 (1 year ago) Permalink
I like the 'stuff happens when you have less than 5 life' ability
― iatee, Friday, 20 January 2012 04:06 (1 year ago) Permalink
"magic: the gaythering"About 37,000,000 results (0.20 seconds)
― NZA, Friday, 20 January 2012 04:06 (1 year ago) Permalink
― iatee, Friday, 20 January 2012 04:07 (1 year ago) Permalink
37 mil is for the alternative spelling 'magic the gathering'
― iatee, Friday, 20 January 2012 04:08 (1 year ago) Permalink
yeah there are some pretty obnoxious ones (like the pro black and green double strikers and that stupid "geist of saint something" that's way more powerful than it should be), but that card just amuses me - IIRC the Zombies in Innistrad aren't even worth playing in draft
― frogbs, Friday, 20 January 2012 04:09 (1 year ago) Permalink
im makin a t2 deck based around this card:
obviously its expensive to cast but it's a damn 20-point life swing and there are a lot of good accel. cards, so why the hell not? it's like a $1 card too
― frogbs, Friday, 20 January 2012 04:10 (1 year ago) Permalink
haha that's pretty dope
― iatee, Friday, 20 January 2012 04:12 (1 year ago) Permalink
there are some blue/black mill yrself decks that work with zombies but it requires a really specific draft setup in order to get the big black spells to pay off ime
geist of saint traft is way overpowered but its p easy to work against. i still like g/w humans deck tbh just too many combos in limited rn
― Lamp, Friday, 20 January 2012 04:15 (1 year ago) Permalink
the 6-7 mana cards are definitely so much better than they used to be - i've had games where i'd be in total control and my opponent would just tap out and play some ridiculous card where its like "all your crreatures die, and oh yeah mine all get bigger LOL", whereas in the past it would only be like a 6/6 flyer or something
― frogbs, Friday, 20 January 2012 04:15 (1 year ago) Permalink
like travel prep + gnaw to the bone make g/w so rad
― Lamp, Friday, 20 January 2012 04:16 (1 year ago) Permalink
yeah 'gather the villagers' or w/e the new dark ascension card is that gives two +1/+1 human tokens looks so rad w/champion of the parish.
― Lamp, Friday, 20 January 2012 04:17 (1 year ago) Permalink
geist of saint traft is way overpowered but its p easy to work against. i still like g/w humans deck tbh just too many combos in limited rn
give me a break, it's got "hexproof", the dumbest ability of all timeso like, I can't touch it, but you can play that enchant creature that gives it +4/+4 and flying the next turn
― frogbs, Friday, 20 January 2012 04:19 (1 year ago) Permalink
wtf geist of saint traft that's ridiculous
― iatee, Friday, 20 January 2012 04:20 (1 year ago) Permalink
I mean that's essentially a 6/6 w/ no drawbacks for 3 mana
― iatee, Friday, 20 January 2012 04:21 (1 year ago) Permalink
i havent played against decks w/that card much but its only 2/2
― Lamp, Friday, 20 January 2012 04:22 (1 year ago) Permalink
yeah but if they get off to a slow start you can hit them w/ 6 damage
I dunno I guess context matters and decks are pretty small creature heavy these days but in old school magic that card would be banned in two minutes
― iatee, Friday, 20 January 2012 04:24 (1 year ago) Permalink
yeah Lamp and Morphling was just a 3/3!
― frogbs, Friday, 20 January 2012 04:25 (1 year ago) Permalink
anyway i'm doin some cock on this sorin's vengence deck, it's actually working okay. what I hate is that I'm playing aganist the same damn decks over and over again, it's like these decks are winning magic WORLDS, you don't need to test them to see if they work!
― frogbs, Friday, 20 January 2012 04:30 (1 year ago) Permalink
haha i have no idea what morphling is.
i can see why it seems overpowered and certainly the fact that its reaching snapcaster level prices tends to imply its really good but the couple of times ive played against someone w/that card it wasnt much of a problem, there are so many cheap creatures that can take out a 2/2 ive been able to deal w/them quickly and in draft no ones going to have a bunch of them
i wouldve assumed in constructed formats there are a lot of ways to deal w/ it then but the way its risen in price maybe not?
― Lamp, Friday, 20 January 2012 04:31 (1 year ago) Permalink
what id really like to see is someone get a werewolf deck that works
― Lamp, Friday, 20 January 2012 04:32 (1 year ago) Permalink
problem is there are hardly any good werewolves after transformation. moonmist would slay if transformation got more powerful.
apparently the new werewolves in dark ascension are better
― chillin in the volvo, listenin' to alva-noto (fennel cartwright), Friday, 20 January 2012 04:34 (1 year ago) Permalink
morphling was basically the most annoying creature ever, it just seemed unkillable, especially since decks that ran it usually played a lot of counterspells
geist isn't really a format breaker but it's so clearly powerful, a 3 mana creature that can end the game quick on its own and combos with a lot of stuff. like 3 mana creatures that need to be answered right away are so rare.
― frogbs, Friday, 20 January 2012 04:35 (1 year ago) Permalink
i haven't really figured out how to make werewolves work but i like reckless waif as a first turn drop given that cockatrice constructed players often don't cast anything on their first turn as their carefully laid trap decks come to fruition
― adam, Friday, 20 January 2012 04:36 (1 year ago) Permalink
― iatee, Friday, 20 January 2012 04:37 (1 year ago) Permalink
er idk what format that pic is but it was originally urza's saga
― iatee, Friday, 20 January 2012 04:38 (1 year ago) Permalink
Mayor of Avabruck seems very very good on its own. I have a friend who tried the werewolf deck and it simply didn't work, it gives your opponent too much control over what's going to happen
― frogbs, Friday, 20 January 2012 04:39 (1 year ago) Permalink
i mean, if you're under pressure, you have to cast spells to deal with it, but if you do your guys remain shit humans. i would guess dark ascension has a few good ones that actually make the deck viable
― frogbs, Friday, 20 January 2012 04:41 (1 year ago) Permalink
haha yeah the one time i tried drafting werewolves it turned out p badly. the good cards are just so expensive to get out!
yeah mayor of averbruck is p good. i like kruin outlaws a lot too but yr curve on werewolf decks isnt great and moonmist is hard to time at least for me
― Lamp, Friday, 20 January 2012 04:43 (1 year ago) Permalink
vampires are quite good in limited btw - vampiric fury is everywhere and is pretty punchy, and creatures like interloper and markov patrician are strong too. i did one draft where i first-picked a bloodline keeper, then built a solid and super fast deck around it, with like 3 vampiric furies and 3 interlopers. i lost in round 2 though due to some crap pulls :(
― chillin in the volvo, listenin' to alva-noto (fennel cartwright), Friday, 20 January 2012 04:44 (1 year ago) Permalink
don't think i drew the bloodline keeper once in that second round come to think of it
― chillin in the volvo, listenin' to alva-noto (fennel cartwright), Friday, 20 January 2012 04:46 (1 year ago) Permalink
Moonmist is really the only great thing about the deck. Otherwise like I said it really gives your opponent too much power over everything. Kind of the anti-control
― frogbs, Friday, 20 January 2012 04:47 (1 year ago) Permalink
i mean i like a lot of the individual werewolf cards and im p into the flavour but its just so slow
w/ the stuff like 'huntmaster of the fells' it looks like setting up a combo/token deck for werewolves
xp - theres one guy at the store i play at that loooves vampires but i havent been so impressed. the group of friends i play casually w/ theres a dude that plays vampires that does well tho w/ olivia volderen and the nobles.
― Lamp, Friday, 20 January 2012 04:47 (1 year ago) Permalink
I think I am opposed to this creaturist stuff in principle, it feels un-mtg
― iatee, Friday, 20 January 2012 04:48 (1 year ago) Permalink
but I guess it's been going on for years
― iatee, Friday, 20 January 2012 04:49 (1 year ago) Permalink
the draft deck I was most proud of was a Curse of the Bloody Tome deck, I drafted 5 of those plus 3 dream twists and just tried to turbo mill. It only played 4 creatures, hands down the weirdest draft deck I ever made. It made it to the finals and got CRUSHED by an insanely fast and super-reckless vampire deck that suddenly had no drawbacks against me
― frogbs, Friday, 20 January 2012 04:50 (1 year ago) Permalink
what do you mean?
the metagame being about creature types instead of that sorta just being an aside
― iatee, Friday, 20 January 2012 04:52 (1 year ago) Permalink
i think outside of limited the metagame isnt really that much abt creatures? idk this is just from browsing forums
― Lamp, Friday, 20 January 2012 04:54 (1 year ago) Permalink
yeah i dont know if i agree with that iatee, creature type definitely matters a lot more now but I think that's just part of an overall plan to make more cards that play well with other cards
― frogbs, Friday, 20 January 2012 04:57 (1 year ago) Permalink
I think I am opposed eras where creature decks are the most poweful for aesthetic reasons. like there's something more appealing about the highest levels of the game being complicated mostly-spell decks w/ complicated interactions.
― iatee, Friday, 20 January 2012 05:00 (1 year ago) Permalink
anyway just being a complainy oldtimer ignore me
as an old-timey counterspell douchebag i completely agree. arcane rules interactions are sort of aesthetically pleasing in their grotesque way. see match 2 game 2 video here: http://www.channelfireball.com/home/running-the-gauntlet-esper-vs-8-player-queues/
― adam, Friday, 20 January 2012 05:04 (1 year ago) Permalink
the problem is that "complicated mostly-spell decks w/ complicated interactions" don't allow for much interactivity from the opponent (whereas creatures can be dealt with/manipulated in many ways) so it kind of removes a lot of the skill component.
also, the creatures themselves (and the cards that interact with them) are getting much more sophisticated ; I have a deck that runs like 26 creatures that's probably the most complex and intricate type 2 deck I've ever made
― frogbs, Friday, 20 January 2012 05:05 (1 year ago) Permalink
I think the opposite is true actually - creatures are (eventually) on the board and so most of the time what you do with them is going to be fairly predictable, whereas your hand is hidden so there's a certain poker element
― iatee, Friday, 20 January 2012 05:07 (1 year ago) Permalink
i guess id have to know what kind of decks youre talking about. its just when you say that I think about Trix (the Delusions/Donate deck) and ProsBloom, both decks that were just like "I'm going off now, gg"
― frogbs, Friday, 20 January 2012 05:09 (1 year ago) Permalink
yeah when i tried playing the new phyrexia set i feel like there was still a lot of like 6 creature cawblade decks that ran a bunch of complicated spells so ive really like how innistrad plays conceptually. theres something p satisfying abt getting to build a board w/o constantly having to worry abt counters
but ive enjoyed the sheer variety of possible deck builds this set and there are def like mill decks and burning vengeance that arent creature focused
― Lamp, Friday, 20 January 2012 05:11 (1 year ago) Permalink
nah I don't necessarily mean combo decks more just eras where the strongest decks are spell based vs. eras where the strongest decks are creature based
― iatee, Friday, 20 January 2012 05:12 (1 year ago) Permalink
I think I just like the mindgame aspect, the 'I'm a wizard, you're a wizard, let's assume this will take a long time and there will be a lot of subtle moves and decisions'. but this is just taking things back to lamp's sandbox poll about why my favorite color is obv blue.
― iatee, Friday, 20 January 2012 05:17 (1 year ago) Permalink
like counterspells might be annoying but I think they add a huge decision-making element to the game
― iatee, Friday, 20 January 2012 05:19 (1 year ago) Permalink
yeah I like Innistrad too, just wish they never printed Nihil Spellbomb as that destroys like half the cool decks you can build with that set and it's only a one mana artifact. which sucks because as far as a "graveyard-based" set it's so much more complicated than stuff like "get 7 cards in your graveyard for +2/+2"
― frogbs, Friday, 20 January 2012 05:19 (1 year ago) Permalink
on the other side of that there's nothing more unpleasant than playing against a control deck that's absolutely destroying you because you mulliganned twice or got Wrathed pretty badly, only you don't actually lose until 10 turns down the road...
that said, those games were very awesome in the old 250-card 5-color format
― frogbs, Friday, 20 January 2012 05:22 (1 year ago) Permalink
I definitely get a rush playing Black Lotoses and Ancestral Recalls n shit on Cockatrice
― river, Friday, 20 January 2012 07:14 (1 year ago) Permalink
yo i am excited for dark ascension. i'm getting really into G/W. i think mayor of avabruck is gonna be the block's sleeper, with all the human tokens coming out. my G/W deck is doing okay with just mild synergies - i am doing cheap token strategy with geist-honored monk, midnight haunting, and intangible virtue, but also cranking out wolves with the mayors. throw in some cheap werewolves and pump them all with gavony township. then parallel lives for fun. it's been going ok so far and i think when i can switch from spirits to humans i will be able to get the most out of those mayors.
blasphemous act kills my deck
― chillin in the volvo, listenin' to alva-noto (fennel cartwright), Saturday, 28 January 2012 11:38 (1 year ago) Permalink
― insert 2012 appropriate display name here (snoball), Saturday, 28 January 2012 12:11 (1 year ago) Permalink
played the prerelease on saturday. got almost no sleep the night before and was super exhausted and everything took forever to happen so i left before they finished (went 1-2). the guy sitting across from me pulled the big DA planeswalker and an isolated chapel so i was stupidly kinda bummed from the start. wish i had more fun but i won some boosters so it paid for itself, mostly
― the parable is the parable of the (Lamp), Monday, 30 January 2012 17:31 (1 year ago) Permalink
planeswalkers seem like they'd be pretty broken in sealed play
― iatee, Monday, 30 January 2012 17:37 (1 year ago) Permalink
well this was my first sealed tournament but the format seems too fast for them to really work.
― the parable is the parable of the (Lamp), Monday, 30 January 2012 17:39 (1 year ago) Permalink
I did the one locally and went 3-1. Won the first 3 and nearly won the 4th - I had 11 2/2 tokens out plus some flyers and couldn't imagine how I was going to lose, then my opponent plays a card that literally removed all my stuff from the game for one turn and swung in for the win. That thing is so nasty.
I haven't seen too much of the set yet but my first impression is that the "undying" creatures seem very nasty and possibly very good in standard. My pick for the sleeper of the set is "Increasing Savagery", which gives a creature 5 +1/+1 counters for 2GG and can be flashbacked to add 10 counters (for like 7-8 mana). Normally this would suck but green has a bunch of creatures now that are tough to kill right now.
I got the planeswalker too and am desperately trying to trade or sell it while it's $50+. Seems very good in a token-based deck but otherwise it's very underwhelming. W/B tokens looks really good (especially with the flashbacker that makes flyers) but it also seems like it's going to get absolutely stomped by cards like Ratchet Bomb.
― frogs you are the dumbest asshole (frogbs), Monday, 30 January 2012 17:40 (1 year ago) Permalink
are any of you guys interested in doing a draft/tournament online for one of the newer sets (maybe Innistrad)?
― Mordy, Monday, 30 January 2012 17:45 (1 year ago) Permalink
I got the planeswalker too
― the parable is the parable of the (Lamp), Monday, 30 January 2012 17:45 (1 year ago) Permalink
dont feel too bad. it's going to tank hard.
― frogs you are the dumbest asshole (frogbs), Monday, 30 January 2012 17:48 (1 year ago) Permalink
haha i got one too, my first time pulling a money card at a prerelease
if the tokens deck is real it's not gonna tank too much, keep in mind that the next set is going to be a standalone, so this one's only going to be drafted/opened for a few months. this is what happened with Jace the Mind Sculptor in Worldwake, tho obv this one's not nearly as good.
― ciderpress, Monday, 30 January 2012 17:53 (1 year ago) Permalink
the next set is a standalone? is it still part of Innistrad block?
IMO you can't really compare Jace, as the card's power level was so high that it was playable in basically every blue deck, and not just in Standard. I mean Lilliana's only $30 and she seems good enough to play in other formats. Whereas Sorin only looks good in one potential Standard deck. I just can't see a Black/White planeswalker getting enough play to justify a $25+ price tag.
― frogs you are the dumbest asshole (frogbs), Monday, 30 January 2012 17:59 (1 year ago) Permalink
yeah it's still part of the block story-wise, but it's a large set with new/different mechanics and will be drafted by itself. basically the same deal as Rise of the Eldrazi a couple years ago.
― ciderpress, Monday, 30 January 2012 18:00 (1 year ago) Permalink
ahhh, cool. ever since Coldsnap I never had any idea what was going on with the block structure. crazy how much I was worried back in like Kamigawa block that they were running out of ideas, and they responded by printing way more new and well-designed cards every year
― frogs you are the dumbest asshole (frogbs), Monday, 30 January 2012 18:04 (1 year ago) Permalink
yeah i think it's sweet because i love triple-large-set draft formats and don't really like full block draft formats with the exception of Ravnica block
― ciderpress, Monday, 30 January 2012 18:06 (1 year ago) Permalink
exactly - I loved the way Ravnica came together but stuff like the Scars block where you'd suddenly be pushed into doing blue/white infect knowing that there would be nothing for you in the next 2 packs was pretty awkward. but I do like 2/1 drafts with a large and a small
― frogs you are the dumbest asshole (frogbs), Monday, 30 January 2012 18:08 (1 year ago) Permalink
for me it's mostly that being able to consistently get certain cards esp. uncommons makes drafting various gimmicky archetypes a lot easier. like in 3x Innistrad draft, there's a real deck you can draft that plays out like this:
step 1: play out a bunch of defensive creatures to stall the gamestep 2: mill your entire deck into your graveyard until you have no cards leftstep 3: on your upkeep before you'd draw from an empty deck and lose, flash back Memory's Journey to put Runic Repetition into your deck and draw it.step 4: use Runic Repetition to get back Memory's Journey
at this point you can use Memory's Journey and Runic Repetition to draw whatever card you want each turn. Now you can play Gnaw to the Bone to gain 20+ life if you're close to dead, then loop Spider Spawning to make enough tokens to kill them.
it sounds like someone's weirdo casual combo deck but you can actually draft this, and it actually works! and stuff like this is really only possible in a 3x large set format when you have the maximum number of chances at getting the important cards
― ciderpress, Monday, 30 January 2012 18:33 (1 year ago) Permalink
i've never seen anyone pull that off. i did make a (somewhat successful) deck with 4 creatures and a bunch of dream twist/curse that mills 2 each turn which struck me as a very odd thing to do in a draft. you can definitely do really goofy things if you're drafting 3x a small set. i remember the first draft I did of Morningtide in which I picked up 9 of these guys: http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=152736
i guess i'll have to see how the INN/INN/DKA drafts play out - I agree that 3x INN was a great format.
― frogs you are the dumbest asshole (frogbs), Monday, 30 January 2012 19:19 (1 year ago) Permalink
i actually don't think it was a great format. there's a lot of cool stuff you can do but most of it gets crushed by whoever at the table was lucky enough to end up with the best G/W aggro deck, or blue tempo deck with invisible stalker. i've had more frustrating losses than in any other limited format i've played, due to a lack of hard removal and a lot of powerful tempo cards like Silent Departure that punish you for tapping out for something big.
the worst example i can think of was that i actually had to concede a game before my 2nd turn because it was impossible for me to win
― ciderpress, Monday, 30 January 2012 19:31 (1 year ago) Permalink
i'm not saying its terrible though, it's still a fun format! just not as balanced as other ones i've played
― ciderpress, Monday, 30 January 2012 19:34 (1 year ago) Permalink
and the Dark Ascension pack should fix some of the problems too
― ciderpress, Monday, 30 January 2012 19:35 (1 year ago) Permalink
picked up this dude's new game - king of tokyo. looks sick...
― is it hrostep? (cozen), Monday, 30 January 2012 19:36 (1 year ago) Permalink
huh? what did he play ...or did you just mulligan to 4 or 5 ? (usually that ends things)
I like Innistrad draft b/c it gives you a lot of avenues to explore without 'forcing your hand' (unlike Lorwyn, which was all about how many creatures you could get in your tribe) - instead of drafting colors, it's more about drafting an archetype. Especially since most of them use the graveyards in different ways. Only thing that I hate is Invisible Stalker + Butchers Cleaver which seems to crop up fairly often and is just unfair as hell.
― frogs you are the dumbest asshole (frogbs), Monday, 30 January 2012 19:38 (1 year ago) Permalink
i was on the draw, he played t1 delver of secrets, t2 flipped it revealing brimstone volley, then played spectral flight on the delver and hit me for 5. I now have 2 turns to get rid of a 5/4 flying creature before i'm in burn range, and my hand/deck had no outs to that for less than 4 mana so i just scooped.
― ciderpress, Monday, 30 January 2012 19:43 (1 year ago) Permalink
well flipping delver on t2 is pretty damn nuts in standard so yeah not much you can do there
worst I've gotten it was turn 1 Pilgrim, turn 2 Midnight Haunting, turn 3 double Travel Prep, I was on the draw and hadn't even played a card yet
― frogs you are the dumbest asshole (frogbs), Monday, 30 January 2012 19:46 (1 year ago) Permalink
ive enjoyed innistrad draft but i think ciderpress is right. on the other hand ive managed to win some games with really terrible decks like blue/black mill with a lab maniac and four other creatures
― the parable is the parable of the (Lamp), Monday, 30 January 2012 20:28 (1 year ago) Permalink
i have not gotten to win a game with lab maniac yet, and i am jealous of everyone who has
― ciderpress, Monday, 30 January 2012 20:32 (1 year ago) Permalink
i made a t2 deck with him. basically it was a ton of cheap draw, looters, etc., with 8 counterspells and unburial rites to take Jin-Gataxis out of the grave, draw a ton of cards and win with Lab Maniac. really fun to play and it could really work well if you drew the counterspells but it was really easy to sideboard against
― frogs you are the dumbest asshole (frogbs), Monday, 30 January 2012 20:34 (1 year ago) Permalink
lab maniac is not very good in limited, i drew really lucky to get it to work and was playing a b/w deck with almost no removal
― the parable is the parable of the (Lamp), Monday, 30 January 2012 20:36 (1 year ago) Permalink
i would really like to do an innistrad draft online w/ ilx mtg players. is such a thing possible?
― Mordy, Monday, 30 January 2012 22:37 (1 year ago) Permalink
probably not, there's only like 5 or 6 of us and we'd all have to be online at once
― frogs you are the dumbest asshole (frogbs), Monday, 30 January 2012 22:45 (1 year ago) Permalink
we would just have to draft together. we could schedule the games at our convenience
― Mordy, Monday, 30 January 2012 22:47 (1 year ago) Permalink
sealed is 100x easier to coordinate but i'd be down for either
― ciderpress, Monday, 30 January 2012 23:27 (1 year ago) Permalink
yeah I think coordinating a draft will be impossible but I'll do sealed
― iatee, Monday, 30 January 2012 23:38 (1 year ago) Permalink
oh yeah, i assumed it would be sealed. i guess i didn't realize draft only meant w/ passing packs around.
so is there a way to coordinate that online?
― Mordy, Monday, 30 January 2012 23:40 (1 year ago) Permalink
if there is a good sealed generator outside of the one that was included in magic workstation I have not found it
― iatee, Monday, 30 January 2012 23:41 (1 year ago) Permalink
Wow, this thread really took off since the last time I posted in... 2003? Jeez. I never really stopped playing, but I'm happy to see more people into the game again. The last few sets have some of the best-designed cards in a long time and I guess it's not surprising they're hooking people.
http://ccgdecks.com/ is a decent place to do sealed if you don't feel like installing Magic Workstation, though the interface for building the deck is a little hard to manage. I end up doing drafts on that site too, those usually work out well.
― Vinnie, Tuesday, 31 January 2012 01:27 (1 year ago) Permalink
i would play either draft or sealed with yall
― chillin in the volvo, listenin' to alva-noto (fennel cartwright), Tuesday, 31 January 2012 02:44 (1 year ago) Permalink
sealed is hella fun id be up 4 it
― the parable is the parable of the (Lamp), Tuesday, 31 January 2012 03:51 (1 year ago) Permalink
if it looks like we can get 8 people we can do some knockout tournament
― iatee, Tuesday, 31 January 2012 03:52 (1 year ago) Permalink
― ciderpress, Monday, 6 February 2012 05:06 (1 year ago) Permalink
― Z S, Monday, 6 February 2012 05:08 (1 year ago) Permalink
― Lamp, Monday, 6 February 2012 15:45 (1 year ago) Permalink
mario made out of magic cards?
― Mordy, Monday, 6 February 2012 15:50 (1 year ago) Permalink
― Lamp, Monday, 6 February 2012 16:55 (1 year ago) Permalink
I wish I had cards to go to this w/http://www.theawl.com/2012/02/midtowns-magic-gathering
― iatee, Wednesday, 29 February 2012 06:08 (1 year ago) Permalink
the 'token white guys' thread on sna always makes me lol/confused
― Lamp, Tuesday, 27 March 2012 00:06 (1 year ago) Permalink
― iatee, Tuesday, 27 March 2012 00:07 (1 year ago) Permalink
mtg-playing tumblr whites
― Mordy, Tuesday, 27 March 2012 00:08 (1 year ago) Permalink
― ciderpress, Tuesday, 27 March 2012 04:58 (1 year ago) Permalink
what's awesome about that is that I have a buddy who looks EXACTLY LIKE that, to the point where he's able to convince people who don't play that he won some kind of contest and got to be on the card. i gotta post some pictures of this dude.
― Estimate the percent chance that a whale has ever been to the moon? (frogbs), Tuesday, 27 March 2012 13:09 (1 year ago) Permalink
really excited cuz im playing a block constructed tournament tonight and i think im really, really happy with my deck
― Lamp, Friday, 30 March 2012 22:03 (1 year ago) Permalink
did u include a lot of serra angel cards in it to head off MTG misogyny?
― Mordy, Friday, 30 March 2012 22:11 (1 year ago) Permalink
haha i totally do love angel cards and im psyched for the new block which seems like its gonna be angel heavy but im playing G/R undying
― Lamp, Friday, 30 March 2012 22:29 (1 year ago) Permalink
was playing W/b/g tokens but post-ban thought id give something different a go
i also love angels. white is my fave color by far. angels + white weenie just makes me so happy
― Mordy, Friday, 30 March 2012 22:33 (1 year ago) Permalink
i made a Tenab the Harvester EDH deck recently (for when my MTG friends came to visit us from NY) but really i was just enthusiastic about playing the white cards (i do have some killer green moves too). maybe i'll make a white/green EDH deck. or mono white!
― Mordy, Friday, 30 March 2012 22:34 (1 year ago) Permalink
whites my fave color too - ive been fucking around with a mono white legacy deck on cockatrice but itd be like $700 to build irl and not actually very good. i just want to run a bunch of stall enchantments like moat and castle and island sanctuary
― Lamp, Friday, 30 March 2012 22:50 (1 year ago) Permalink
I think I figured out how to get cockatrice to work on my shitty old computer, we should play again soon
― iatee, Friday, 30 March 2012 22:52 (1 year ago) Permalink
Lamp people actually play block constructed where you live?
― ciderpress, Tuesday, 3 April 2012 14:54 (1 year ago) Permalink
new preview card
sure have come a long way since the days of Seraph. this thing is insane.
― Estimate the percent chance that a whale has ever been to the moon? (frogbs), Tuesday, 3 April 2012 14:57 (1 year ago) Permalink
they already made a 'you win' card didn't you? eventually they'll just make it cost 2 blue mana or something
― iatee, Tuesday, 3 April 2012 15:04 (1 year ago) Permalink
it's not even particularly playable in constructed though. a lot of the best removal exiles or -X/-Xes things, both of which get around indestructible. you can bounce it too
― ciderpress, Tuesday, 3 April 2012 15:10 (1 year ago) Permalink
this is what a big angel with an ability that actually wins you the game looks like: http://magiccards.info/zen/en/13.html
― ciderpress, Tuesday, 3 April 2012 15:13 (1 year ago) Permalink
yeah compared to Plat Angel and Iona it's pretty tame. but we're in the era of Unburial Rites now. if Iona and Unburial Rites were legal at the same time that would warp the format.
― Estimate the percent chance that a whale has ever been to the moon? (frogbs), Tuesday, 3 April 2012 15:17 (1 year ago) Permalink
Iona is AMAZING. I played an EDH deck with her once and basically shut down the game once she came out.
― Mordy, Tuesday, 3 April 2012 15:48 (1 year ago) Permalink
man... i just know i could never go down to the game shop w me shitty old decks and play this game. things done changed.
― one dis leads to another (ian), Tuesday, 3 April 2012 16:00 (1 year ago) Permalink
Haha unburial rites was my first thought my second was that she protects virtue and orb from most removal
idk I think shell see some play in W/x tokens
― Lamp, Tuesday, 3 April 2012 16:22 (1 year ago) Permalink
yeah it is amusing to look at the first four or so sets. because you think about Legends and Arabian Nights and you think about Library, Mana Drain, Nether Void, Tabernacle, Mirror Universe, all these insane Type 1 cards, then you look at the rest of the set and it's filled with stuff like this:
I remember going through the Arabian Nights spoiler list and realizing that there's really only ONE card in the entire set that they would print today, and it's Juzam Djinn.
― Estimate the percent chance that a whale has ever been to the moon? (frogbs), Tuesday, 3 April 2012 16:25 (1 year ago) Permalink
guess that image didnt take. this is your typical Legends card:
― Estimate the percent chance that a whale has ever been to the moon? (frogbs), Tuesday, 3 April 2012 16:26 (1 year ago) Permalink
there is something great about the innocence of it all
― iatee, Tuesday, 3 April 2012 16:26 (1 year ago) Permalink
they didn't know the cards sucked! they really had no idea how badly the cards sucked
― iatee, Tuesday, 3 April 2012 16:27 (1 year ago) Permalink
alpha has so many garbage rares but its practically a different game so it's sorta pointless to compare
― Lamp, Tuesday, 3 April 2012 16:31 (1 year ago) Permalink
― one dis leads to another (ian), Tuesday, 3 April 2012 16:32 (1 year ago) Permalink
o.g. magic >>>>>> numagic fuiud
― one dis leads to another (ian), Tuesday, 3 April 2012 16:33 (1 year ago) Permalink
― iatee, Tuesday, 3 April 2012 16:34 (1 year ago) Permalink
ian do you wanna play irl sometime? I have zero cards. but I sorta want to go to this: http://www.theawl.com/2012/02/midtowns-magic-gathering
― iatee, Tuesday, 3 April 2012 16:35 (1 year ago) Permalink
what is "vigilance"?
― one dis leads to another (ian), Tuesday, 3 April 2012 16:36 (1 year ago) Permalink
just a new name for the serra angel ability
― iatee, Tuesday, 3 April 2012 16:37 (1 year ago) Permalink
i would go play in the magic midtown meetup or w/e. it seems okay. monday is a good day for me, at the moment, because i don't work late.i have a few decks, we could share. there is a green/white and a black/blue and maybe a red/green as well..
― one dis leads to another (ian), Tuesday, 3 April 2012 16:39 (1 year ago) Permalink
but but but that's what made the serra angel so special.
all pretty much using cards from around revised/fourth edition/weatherlight era.
― one dis leads to another (ian), Tuesday, 3 April 2012 16:40 (1 year ago) Permalink
sorri 'm not maing ayny sense.
if i still have any dual lands not in decks i think i am going to trade them to the game store for Diplomacy or Settlers of Catan or something.
― one dis leads to another (ian), Tuesday, 3 April 2012 16:41 (1 year ago) Permalink
that was the golden age for me too
wanna go next week?
― iatee, Tuesday, 3 April 2012 16:42 (1 year ago) Permalink
i like the look of the cards and general vibe of really old magic esp like arabian nights - antiquities and a/b/u but i didnt play magic in 93 and i dont really have the money to spend on those cards so
it was just a one-off as far as i know but my friends and i play strictly block cuz we all p much stared playing/playing again w/innistrad
― Lamp, Tuesday, 3 April 2012 16:47 (1 year ago) Permalink
card art used to be better too..
― one dis leads to another (ian), Tuesday, 3 April 2012 16:47 (1 year ago) Permalink
iatee, i will try for next week! i do not know what time? and i can't commit 100% because i'm starting a new part time gig that day and am not sure what time it finishes.
― one dis leads to another (ian), Tuesday, 3 April 2012 16:48 (1 year ago) Permalink
that link doesn't say, it seems so informal that there might not be a set time? I get off at 5 in midtown but can hang around til whenever.
― iatee, Tuesday, 3 April 2012 16:49 (1 year ago) Permalink
Inspired by this thread/the equiv thread in the sandbox, I found some local bars here that have weekly drafts and went along to a couple of them after getting some practice in (also, reading about a decade's worth of Mark Rosewater columns on design, heh) - was pretty easy to slip back into (sets seem pretty draft-friendly), but quite a different game to when I stopped playing (Tempest-y?).One of the nights they ran a "Chaos draft" using a couple of boosters from nearly every set back to The Dark & Homelands - they make Legends/Arabian Nights look pretty powerful, heh. Lot of people seem to play EDH/Commander, but I don't think I could easily rustle up a deck.
― etc, Tuesday, 3 April 2012 16:49 (1 year ago) Permalink
chaos draft sounds rad, wouldn't that be super expensive tho
― iatee, Tuesday, 3 April 2012 16:50 (1 year ago) Permalink
revised and later packs are actually p cheap because there are so many unplayable rares
― Lamp, Tuesday, 3 April 2012 16:55 (1 year ago) Permalink
Don't think there's any equiv to the Stasis artwork these days. Used to love all the Tennyson/Shakespeare/Poe/etc quotes on Legends-era cards, too.
xpost It was 15 euro to enter IIRC (as opposed to 10 for the normal draft) - the guy who organises the weekly events has heaps of boosters lying around apparently and does something like this once a year; I don't think there was anything "valuable" like Alliances/Revised/Antiquities involved. They also had a few packs of Renaissance in Italian, which got confusing pretty fast.
― etc, Tuesday, 3 April 2012 16:56 (1 year ago) Permalink
That's what makes them so entertaining to look at! Especially the legends, their abilities/mana cost/power and toughness wouldn't coorelate at all. It would all seem so random. There would be 2/3 creatures with First Strike, where it's like, what sense does it make to have a first striker with a higher toughness than power? Just things that made no mechanical sense at all. I agree that's there's something endearing about it all! (especially in the art)
― Estimate the percent chance that a whale has ever been to the moon? (frogbs), Tuesday, 3 April 2012 17:05 (1 year ago) Permalink
haha 2/3 first strike is p rad
i want to build a vintage deck out of all the weird enchant land cards in white cuz they are my absolute favorite kind of cards but its funny how little most of them end up doing
frogs are you playing standard at all? what are you playing?
― Lamp, Tuesday, 3 April 2012 17:07 (1 year ago) Permalink
One of the nights they ran a "Chaos draft" using a couple of boosters from nearly every set back to The Dark & Homelands - they make Legends/Arabian Nights look pretty powerful, heh
We tried this on Netdraft once with the first five expansions. Those sets were clearly NOT made to be drafted. I thought it would be a lot more fun than it wound up being.
― Estimate the percent chance that a whale has ever been to the moon? (frogbs), Tuesday, 3 April 2012 17:08 (1 year ago) Permalink
frogs are you playing standard at all? what are you playing?
Yeah - my local store is running tournaments with a $1k prize pool which is getting people from all over the state. I wound up getting 3rd/4th with a Seance deck - it was one of the most mentally exhausting tournaments I've ever played. Basically the idea is to win with Lab Maniac, but you can also win with Sun Titan/Phantasmal Image. Now I'm working on an Undying/Proliferate/Culling Dias deck, but I'm not sure if I can get it to compete.
― Estimate the percent chance that a whale has ever been to the moon? (frogbs), Tuesday, 3 April 2012 17:13 (1 year ago) Permalink
haha i saw that seance/lab maniac deck online and was... skeptical
i have a decent undying deck but its not really standard ready, G/r aggro seems p neat tho
― Lamp, Tuesday, 3 April 2012 17:16 (1 year ago) Permalink
i got 2nd place at a ~60 man tournament last month w/ my birthing pod deck, i think i'm cool with that being the pinnacle of my competitive MTG career
there's a starcitygames open in providence next month that i wanted to play in but then i realized its the exact weekend the new set comes out so i'd have about 24 hours to get any important new cards to update my deck with
― ciderpress, Tuesday, 3 April 2012 17:20 (1 year ago) Permalink
xp - Where'd you see it online? basically I've been trying to use Mirror-Mad Phantasm for a long time and Seance seemed like the perfect fit. I really had no idea what to put in the deck so I'd be interested to see other people's ideas for it. Feel like I got lucky with it though, lots of very close victories and I didn't have to mulligan all day.
G/R aggro definitely is good - Strangleroot Geist and Huntsmaster are so ridiculously powerful. Along with Geralf's Messenger that's three insane "2 for 1" (or more!) creatures that can't be dealt with efficiently at all. Sadly I never pulled a Huntsmaster so G/R is off limits for me. Also they're all insane with Birthing Pod. Pod seems like such an insane card now that "Sacrifice a creature" instead means "put a +1/+1 counter on a creature"
― Estimate the percent chance that a whale has ever been to the moon? (frogbs), Tuesday, 3 April 2012 17:23 (1 year ago) Permalink
there should be a thread on it on mtgsalvation i think he was using snapcasters and armored skaabs in addition to i think 2xlab maniac and 2xmirror-mad
haha i pulled total garbage from innistrad packs but i got three huntmasters (and a sorin) in the dka packs ive opened and traded two cages and a drogs reaver i pulled for the last garruck i needed so i have a p expensive deck for the cost of like half a box? predator ooze is a p insane card too and the combo of undying + blasphemous act is really powerful esp if you have some flayers out and i did really well in the block tournament but i dont think it has enough power for standard...
― Lamp, Tuesday, 3 April 2012 17:29 (1 year ago) Permalink
frogbs i was testing a 4-color seance/unburial deck last month, i'll find the list when i get home from work. it was pretty sweet, though maybe a turn too slow to be really competetive
― ciderpress, Tuesday, 3 April 2012 17:35 (1 year ago) Permalink
yeah post the list - mine was just blue/white with some black for Unburial. also Lamp I don't know why you'd want more than one Mirror-Mad - that kills off a lot of the combo potential. you also only need one Lab Maniac. Noxious Revival is a really good card if you're aggressively milling yourself.
the creatures I used were 4 Phantasmal Images, 4 Armored Skaabs, 3 Merfolk Looters, 2 Sun Titans, and 2 Sphinx of Uthuun (really, really, really good in this deck), in addition to the 1 Lab Man and Mirror-Mad. Images and Skaabs really help stall vs. aggro. Ultimately, I lost the way I figured I would - game 3 of the match to go to the finals and I get Nihil Spellbombed 3 times. Not much you can do about that...
― Estimate the percent chance that a whale has ever been to the moon? (frogbs), Tuesday, 3 April 2012 17:45 (1 year ago) Permalink
undying + blasphemous act is really powerful esp if you have some flayers out
exactly! I am not sure but I think 2 Flayers + 1 Act = 20 damage, b/c each trigger twice? I don't know, but I really like the Flayer anyway.
the keys to that deck (at least the ones I've built) are Culling Dias and Phantasmal Image. Dias turns Young Wolf into a one-mana 2/2 that draws a card. Geist into a 3/2 for GG that draws. It's insane. Image + Undying is also super abusable.
― Estimate the percent chance that a whale has ever been to the moon? (frogbs), Tuesday, 3 April 2012 17:47 (1 year ago) Permalink
no i was just misremembering - it was also an attempt at a block deck: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=404870
yeah the flayers trigger each other and you can choose the order in which they come back - you can also pump them with kessig before damage resolves apparently but im kinda shaky on some of the rules so have never attempted it
― Lamp, Tuesday, 3 April 2012 17:50 (1 year ago) Permalink
Well, that implies you "only" get 15 damage, since that would be one trigger, then two. I don't really know. The whole deck is a rules nightmare. But it's damn fun!
I haven't really thought about block Seance - I mean Sphinx/Looter/Image were so vital to what I had, I would think you'd have to do something else. However, not having to play against Nihil Spellbomb and Surgical Extraction seem like a massive plus!!
― Estimate the percent chance that a whale has ever been to the moon? (frogbs), Tuesday, 3 April 2012 18:00 (1 year ago) Permalink
uh, i will giant growth my tundra wolves for four, your go.
― one dis leads to another (ian), Tuesday, 3 April 2012 18:04 (1 year ago) Permalink
― Lamp, Tuesday, 3 April 2012 18:08 (1 year ago) Permalink
pretty sure you'll get 20 damage because they both see each other upon entry simultaneously. it's kind of like in the valakut decks last year where if you were at 4 mountains and then fetched up 2 with your titan, valakut triggered for both of them
― ciderpress, Tuesday, 3 April 2012 18:10 (1 year ago) Permalink
ahh, good. Flayer seems like a really underappreciated card in general. I don't know why the 5-color Unburial Rites decks don't pack a couple.
― Estimate the percent chance that a whale has ever been to the moon? (frogbs), Tuesday, 3 April 2012 18:14 (1 year ago) Permalink
inferno titan's 3 damage divided is just better in the current format, plus you get it again every turn if they dont deal w/ it. flayer kills hero of bladehold but other than that has no great advantage
flayer's def a card to watch for post-rotation but right now the other 6s just blow it out of the water
― ciderpress, Tuesday, 3 April 2012 18:21 (1 year ago) Permalink
though i did try to make a modern deck that milled/dredged itself then cast Pyrrhic Revival to 1-shot the opponent with Flayers and friends. it wasn't very good.
― ciderpress, Tuesday, 3 April 2012 18:24 (1 year ago) Permalink
the advantage of flayer is that it's better vs. decks with lots of spot removal, which Rites can struggle with. but you're right, that is the reason why. really, the problem with Standard now is that the Titans are all so good that other 6-7 mana creatures are nearly unplayable. I really hope they don't come back this year.
― Estimate the percent chance that a whale has ever been to the moon? (frogbs), Tuesday, 3 April 2012 18:32 (1 year ago) Permalink
haha yeah titans are a big part of the reason that the avancyn is so unplayable, really, theyre the benchmark atm
i dont mind though since it keeps really good creatures cheap - a playset of flayers cost me $4 - and i have no real desire to play standard competitively
― Lamp, Tuesday, 3 April 2012 18:36 (1 year ago) Permalink
yeah, now more than ever there seem to be a LOT of quality rares in the $1-3 range. instead of ranging from $3-$20 as they did in the pre-mythic days, now everything is either $1-3, $7-8, or $30+. I picked up four Skinshifters from M12 for four bucks, which is nuts because that card seems very, very good. Just don't know how to use him yet.
― Estimate the percent chance that a whale has ever been to the moon? (frogbs), Tuesday, 3 April 2012 19:05 (1 year ago) Permalink
skinshifter was actually awesome against cawblade, i spent the last couple months between m12 and innistrad rotation beating people up with them. not sure if there's ever gonna be an aggro deck that wants it over strangleroot geist now though
― ciderpress, Tuesday, 3 April 2012 19:47 (1 year ago) Permalink
there's a starcitygames open in providence next month that i wanted to play in
going to one of these seems like a nightmare
― Lamp, Tuesday, 3 April 2012 20:44 (1 year ago) Permalink
From what I've heard the prize support is awful, so it's probably not worth it. I don't know much about the pro scene but it seems like with the metagame shifting so rapidly due to the internet and the wide breadth of viable decks in Standard, you can't place high without a good deal of luck. Most Standard formats I remember only had two or three real "Tier 1" decks which meant it was easy to build something specialized to compete.
― Estimate the percent chance that a whale has ever been to the moon? (frogbs), Tuesday, 3 April 2012 20:50 (1 year ago) Permalink
yeah it seems like standard is (unprecedentedly?) wide open rn which seems exciting, i guess?
ive found out i really like deck-building but w/o regular block events i dont think i could ever play anything but limited competitively
― Lamp, Tuesday, 3 April 2012 22:45 (1 year ago) Permalink
yeah i mostly just draft these days, its the most fun format by far (also the most difficult)
― ciderpress, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 19:37 (1 year ago) Permalink
today's preview card is nuts:
I don't think this thing is really great on its own but its ridiculously broken in any format where you have access to Brainstorm or tutor effects. In type 2 you can use Noxious Revival if you dump it in your graveyard. But really I'm interested to see how this impacts other formats where it's a lot more abuseable. Also this thing seems like a ruling nightmare, if someone calls you out on it, saying you didn't actually draw the card this turn, how is a judge supposed to rule on that?
― Estimate the percent chance that a whale has ever been to the moon? (frogbs), Monday, 9 April 2012 12:35 (1 year ago) Permalink
yeah there are whispers that this is just gonna get banned in legacy right away. the next official banlist update isn't until june though
as for standard, i don't know if it's really that powerful without some way to combo out with it. the white miracle is more interesting to me. i'm pretty excited for this set though, it looks bizarre so far
― ciderpress, Monday, 9 April 2012 13:52 (1 year ago) Permalink
I think you have to cast it *as soon as you draw it* so there isn't room for confusion
― iatee, Monday, 9 April 2012 13:56 (1 year ago) Permalink
yeah but the idea is you can use Brainstorm to put it back on top of your deck so that you get to cast it for 2 mana next turn. it negates the downside of the card which is that sometimes you'll just draw it in your opening hand or off a draw spell and be stuck with a 7-cost card in hand
― ciderpress, Monday, 9 April 2012 14:05 (1 year ago) Permalink
yeah I get that it's broken, just not the ruling confusion
― iatee, Monday, 9 April 2012 14:06 (1 year ago) Permalink
honestly, brainstorm is the card that's broken, but if they ever banned that, they'd lose a lot of players.
― ciderpress, Monday, 9 April 2012 14:10 (1 year ago) Permalink
is it not restricted in type1 or whatever the format is called now?
― iatee, Monday, 9 April 2012 14:11 (1 year ago) Permalink
yeah its restricted in vintage but its a sacred cow in legacy
― ciderpress, Monday, 9 April 2012 14:13 (1 year ago) Permalink
I remember hearing that some pros were also like Rounders-level card mechanics, and unlike that stupid "Morph cheating" problem, I'm not sure how you catch someone at first or even rule for or against someone as a judge.
I also wonder about this thing getting banned in Legacy, but I don't think they ever really ban a card without giving it a fair shake do they? (well outside of Memory Jar, which everyone knew was busted) Even Mental Misstep lasted until the DCI discovered that players were using it "the wrong way" or whatever. I can see this getting a lot of OTHER cards banned though.
― Estimate the percent chance that a whale has ever been to the moon? (frogbs), Monday, 9 April 2012 14:19 (1 year ago) Permalink
also I really hope this thing doesn't see much standard play, I can see turn 1 Ponder, turn 2 Time Walk getting old real quick. as someone who has never played Delver but has played against it a lot I can say the whole "game swings on whatever my opponent draws" is not really a great feeling.
again, I think Noxious Revival is gonna be the key to this in Standard, especially since self-mill is a really efficient strategy now and the big graveyard haters like Nihil Spellbomb and Surgical Extraction are both going away soon
― Estimate the percent chance that a whale has ever been to the moon? (frogbs), Monday, 9 April 2012 14:25 (1 year ago) Permalink
um you can't cast this on turn 2 fyi
― ciderpress, Monday, 9 April 2012 14:28 (1 year ago) Permalink
well unless you play a birds of paradise turn 1
there are a number of paradise effects you can drop on turn 1...
― Mordy, Monday, 9 April 2012 14:31 (1 year ago) Permalink
helll iatee i cannot come to magic gathering gathering tonight cuz i am starting a new job and will be working kinda late and prob not up to going out afterwards, but however, watch out next week!
― one dis leads to another (ian), Monday, 9 April 2012 14:33 (1 year ago) Permalink
it's okay, I was gonna say we might have to do it later tonight cause something came up for me too. next week sounds good!
― iatee, Monday, 9 April 2012 14:34 (1 year ago) Permalink
ahh yes, for some reason the "when you draw it" part still is eluding mestill, turn 3 I guess? I mean really it's good on any turn.
― Estimate the percent chance that a whale has ever been to the moon? (frogbs), Monday, 9 April 2012 14:37 (1 year ago) Permalink
time walk is more of a combo card than one that goes in a 'fair' deck. it puts you way ahead on mana but not on cards (since your extra draw step just replaces the time walk you used). i think people generally overrate how good it is as a one-shot effect; a big part of the reason its banned everywhere and part of the 'power 9' is because it was pretty easy to loop it
that said, past cards that resembled time walk in some way have all played very strong (remand, mistbind clique, sword of feast and famine) so i guess we'll see
― ciderpress, Monday, 9 April 2012 14:50 (1 year ago) Permalink
idk, it's harder to think of blue decks that couldn't benefit from 4 time walks than blue decks that could
― iatee, Monday, 9 April 2012 14:52 (1 year ago) Permalink
well yeah time walk has no downside even when it has no upside. not the case with this new card though
― ciderpress, Monday, 9 April 2012 14:54 (1 year ago) Permalink
― iatee, Monday, 9 April 2012 14:56 (1 year ago) Permalink
IMo the closest they've come to reprinting it was Cryptic Command, which usually played somewhat similar to Time Walk (in many more words obviously), and that card got played a ton
what pushes "take another turn" over the top is that it's just an effect you're always happy to have. If you have the mana to cast it there's no card disadvantage or mana disadvantage.
a big part of the reason its banned everywhere and part of the 'power 9' is because it was pretty easy to loop it
well, it's a power card even as a one-shot effect, but yes to the second point, and this new card is pretty much asking to be looped
― Estimate the percent chance that a whale has ever been to the moon? (frogbs), Monday, 9 April 2012 15:01 (1 year ago) Permalink
also I'm not really sure how this plays if it's your opponent's turn? can you Think Twice then cast this? I would think not because it's a sorcery but abilities like this (such as madness) generally work at instant speed if I remember correctly
― Estimate the percent chance that a whale has ever been to the moon? (frogbs), Monday, 9 April 2012 15:05 (1 year ago) Permalink
yeah they will probably have to clarify, cause 'after this one' becomes unclear if it's not your turn
― iatee, Monday, 9 April 2012 15:06 (1 year ago) Permalink
yes, miracle lets you ignore the timing restriction on sorceries, same as madness
― ciderpress, Monday, 9 April 2012 15:07 (1 year ago) Permalink
and what will happen is you'll take your extra turn, then your normal turn
So it seems very good with stuff like Merfolk Looter, since it allows you to discard the card if you get it early, and it gives you another chance at a miracle during your opponent's turn. Also I wonder how this works with "draw two cards" effects - is there a first card and a second one?
Gotta see what the other miracles are like, b/c you could definitely make an interesting Standard deck this way
― Estimate the percent chance that a whale has ever been to the moon? (frogbs), Monday, 9 April 2012 15:14 (1 year ago) Permalink
from what i understand it works like this: if you play a draw 2 and you haven't drawn yet that turn and the first of the 2 is a miracle, you have to reveal the miracle to get the miracle trigger, but then you have to draw the 2nd card to finish resolving the draw spell before the miracle trigger goes on the stack and lets you cast the miracle
― ciderpress, Monday, 9 April 2012 15:20 (1 year ago) Permalink
if you draw the 2nd card before revealing the miracle, it doesn't work since you've lost the proof that the first one was the miracle
this is why they gave them that fancy card frame, so you don't accidentally just put it in your hand and miss your chance to cast it
― ciderpress, Monday, 9 April 2012 15:22 (1 year ago) Permalink
I imagine there will be a lot of arguments when people draw too quickly
― iatee, Monday, 9 April 2012 15:23 (1 year ago) Permalink
rules-wise i think madness is the most comparable mechanic to how this works
― ciderpress, Monday, 9 April 2012 15:26 (1 year ago) Permalink
that's kind of strange - so you pretty much have to draw one at a time now. I've never done it that way - if I play something that says "draw 3", I'll just draw them all at once
the card frame thing makes sense now - at first I just thought it was a "holy balls look at this thing!" like the planeswalkers
― Estimate the percent chance that a whale has ever been to the moon? (frogbs), Monday, 9 April 2012 15:26 (1 year ago) Permalink
you only have to draw the first card of each turn separately, if you're drawing 7 cards on your opponent's turn you can just scoop the remaining 6
― ciderpress, Monday, 9 April 2012 15:48 (1 year ago) Permalink
that's still kinda obnoxious
― iatee, Monday, 9 April 2012 15:49 (1 year ago) Permalink
esp if you have like 1 miracle card in your deck
in Legacy it seems like it'll be a pain, but it remains to be seen the extent it'll be played since there's likely to be a banning or two soon. I guess you kind of have to tip them off if you're playing any miracle cards. in Standard, they've generally shied away from instants that draw more than one card lately so I doubt it'll be a problem.
― Estimate the percent chance that a whale has ever been to the moon? (frogbs), Monday, 9 April 2012 16:13 (1 year ago) Permalink
either way, I am genuinely excited about this. I feel like Wizards get bit on the ass every time they try to do something abuseable (Storm, Madness, Affinity, the entire Urza's block), but they have to do it anyway.
― Estimate the percent chance that a whale has ever been to the moon? (frogbs), Monday, 9 April 2012 16:16 (1 year ago) Permalink
the psuedo-time walk seems w/e to me, i mean i only play block and limited and i understand there are formats where it can get abused but its not that good a card imo. i think the best preview cards so far are the white angel rare and the white blink common
― Lamp, Tuesday, 10 April 2012 00:53 (1 year ago) Permalink
the mana cost of time walk effects has to be thought of differently since they don't really tap you out. I can't see running 4 in any kind of slowish blue deck really being a mistake!
― Estimate the percent chance that a whale has ever been to the moon? (frogbs), Tuesday, 10 April 2012 04:06 (1 year ago) Permalink
looks like they're doing the same thing they did with Suspend, using Miracle as an excuse to reprint broken stuff:
a Miracle Balance would be one of the greatest things ever, but sadly I don't think it'll ever happen (as I truly believe Balance is the game's most powerful card and should never, ever be reprinted in any form)
― you can expect punches, kicks and even worse (frogbs), Tuesday, 17 April 2012 15:57 (1 year ago) Permalink
haha some ppl were talking about 'balance' but the white miracle mythic is something garbage about angel tokens
theres a really cool black mythic 'descent into madness' that im tempted to preorder cuz i have the feeling you can do some rad stuff w/ it but overall i havent really been feeling this set
― Lamp, Tuesday, 17 April 2012 16:01 (1 year ago) Permalink
white mythic doesn't seem bad but IMO White Sun's Zenith outclasses it, and few people play that anyway. the blue and red ones seem better to me b/c of that land that allows you to draw and discard in case you get stuck with one in your hand, along with similar effects like Faithless Looting. honestly I have no idea how any of this is going to play out.
I like Decent into Madness too, but the fact that it exiles cards kind of takes away some of the effectiveness (as Reassembling Skeleton was my first though). plus it costs 5 and doesn't really effect the game until your second upkeep.
― you can expect punches, kicks and even worse (frogbs), Tuesday, 17 April 2012 16:06 (1 year ago) Permalink
both the utility lands spoiled so far seem useful although neither are in colors id really consider playing
― Lamp, Tuesday, 17 April 2012 21:22 (1 year ago) Permalink
i dunno about constructed and don't really feel like thinking about it yet but this limited format looks pretty fun
i hope that land that makes creatures uncounterable isn't as good as it looks though, its already got my roommate to lose all interest in constructed since he only plays control
― ciderpress, Wednesday, 18 April 2012 16:41 (1 year ago) Permalink
I am not sure how playable that is. There are so many great duals already. I guess in some decks it'll just straight up be better but you'd have to have all one creature type (which I don't think any decks do right now)
My pick for "sleeper" is Zealous Conscripts - think it'll hover around the $1-$1.50 range, but that card seems so damn good.
Right now my favorite design is this:
― you can expect punches, kicks and even worse (frogbs), Wednesday, 18 April 2012 16:51 (1 year ago) Permalink
yeah i feel like im still bad at magic cuz i dont think that rare land is s0 amazing?
― Lamp, Wednesday, 18 April 2012 16:59 (1 year ago) Permalink
i guess for two black and a red you can cast the pit-dweller and lightning bolt him?
― Mordy, Wednesday, 18 April 2012 17:15 (1 year ago) Permalink
3 mana for a 5/4 creature, not shabby
no no - when he dies your opponent gets him
― you can expect punches, kicks and even worse (frogbs), Wednesday, 18 April 2012 17:20 (1 year ago) Permalink
OH. I missed the from the graveyard part. Eh, then.
― Mordy, Wednesday, 18 April 2012 17:23 (1 year ago) Permalink
you'd have to have all one creature type (which I don't think any decks do right now)
human tribal and zombie tribal are both very good decks in standard already. i think people are also worried about uncounterable primeval titans, since the main thing keeping that card in check was mana leak
― ciderpress, Wednesday, 18 April 2012 17:24 (1 year ago) Permalink
you have to figure out a way to use him. if you can put +1/+1 counters on him he loses his downside. or you can bounce him, or...I dunno. it's not a great card, I just love the design of it.
cider - Human tribals play Geists, and Zombie tribals have Phantasmal Image and Phyrexian Obliterator. In both cases I think you'd want the duals that are out already (which are excellent already). Also, many ways to beat titans besides Mana Leak (Phantasmal Image works quite well too)
― you can expect punches, kicks and even worse (frogbs), Wednesday, 18 April 2012 17:36 (1 year ago) Permalink
yeah i was thinking of ways to add that land to boros humans but the mana gets tricky esp if yr trying to use the new W/R utility land as well? im sure itll be useful but i wonder if itll be as powerful as some ppl are predicting, i guess.
i think i may be able to play the prerelease tho so im excited again lol
― Lamp, Wednesday, 18 April 2012 17:41 (1 year ago) Permalink
yeah some spanish site spoiled a shitload of the common/uncommon limited fodder yesterday so i'm getting all excited for drafting this now and trying to find the cool synergies etc. so far all my favorite limited cards are in blue it seems
― ciderpress, Wednesday, 18 April 2012 18:00 (1 year ago) Permalink
yeah stuff like tandem lookout seems p powerful in sealed/draft. in general u/r seems interesting
― Lamp, Wednesday, 18 April 2012 18:07 (1 year ago) Permalink
I can't figure out if soulbound is going to be tons of fun or if it's just going to make for incredibly complex board states. Say your opponent's got four creatures out, three with soulbound, and you're trying to figure out how to block...yikes
― you can expect punches, kicks and even worse (frogbs), Wednesday, 18 April 2012 18:25 (1 year ago) Permalink
full spoiler is up on the main site. set looks pretty good for limited, at first glance the power level of the commons/uncommons seems really low for a modern set but i'm sure some of them will play stronger than they look. removal looks worse than innistrad's, which was already pretty bad, so that makes me think the format's going to be all about combat tricks with the soulbound guys, and trying to blow out your opponent in combat without getting blown out yourself.
― ciderpress, Monday, 23 April 2012 13:19 (1 year ago) Permalink
i'll wait to pass judgement until the prerelease, but right now my feeling is that drafting decks that abuse soulbound as well as the blue/white Flickering ability are going to work well. and for that, I feel like Black will be very underdrafted.
― you can expect punches, kicks and even worse (frogbs), Monday, 23 April 2012 13:43 (1 year ago) Permalink
do we MAGIC tonight?should get there around 5:30-6.. i have to find decks but i am p sure i know where they are now.
― one dis leads to another (ian), Monday, 23 April 2012 14:45 (1 year ago) Permalink
ahhh I gotta googleproof that
but yeah that time works great for me
― iatee, Monday, 23 April 2012 14:47 (1 year ago) Permalink
I'm excited I haven't played magic irl since jr high
― iatee, Monday, 23 April 2012 14:51 (1 year ago) Permalink
where are you guys playing?
― Mordy, Monday, 23 April 2012 14:56 (1 year ago) Permalink
there is this big weekly event that happens in one of those midtown indoor sorta-public spaces
― iatee, Monday, 23 April 2012 14:58 (1 year ago) Permalink
citigroup center iirc.sorry for lack of g-proof.
― one dis leads to another (ian), Monday, 23 April 2012 15:00 (1 year ago) Permalink
yeah 53rd and lex
― iatee, Monday, 23 April 2012 15:01 (1 year ago) Permalink
oh, i hated in NYC that there was no good place to game. Jim Henley's was blah, and all the other gaming/collectibles places were way too small to do anything (like Forbidden Planet, that other place in midtown, Midtown Comics, etc).
― Mordy, Monday, 23 April 2012 15:08 (1 year ago) Permalink
the 20 Sided Storw in williamsburg was PACKED with teens playing when i hit it up a few weeks ago.
― one dis leads to another (ian), Monday, 23 April 2012 15:09 (1 year ago) Permalink
^^^ magic events there are p well attended ime (which is admittedly limited)
i laughed when i saw that they remade castle in the latest set since its one of my favorite magic cards
― Lamp, Monday, 23 April 2012 15:15 (1 year ago) Permalink
I think u guys should make a short documentary film abt this experince and post it here
― lag∞n, Monday, 23 April 2012 15:19 (1 year ago) Permalink
― Roberto Spiralli, Monday, 23 April 2012 15:23 (1 year ago) Permalink
i hated going to brooklyn. too much travel time from washington heights
― Mordy, Monday, 23 April 2012 15:23 (1 year ago) Permalink
if you're limiting your new york experience based on things like "too much travel time from washington heights" then i just don't know what to say.
― one dis leads to another (ian), Monday, 23 April 2012 15:31 (1 year ago) Permalink
okay, i can't find my decks where i thought they were. gonna continue looking. might be at work, in which case i will stop over there later. i cld swear i moved them from my last apt directly to here tho, so i am gonna keep digging in the closets.
― one dis leads to another (ian), Monday, 23 April 2012 16:09 (1 year ago) Permalink
!! okay here's hoping
― iatee, Monday, 23 April 2012 16:11 (1 year ago) Permalink
this is why i should have made sure to find them after last time i couldn't find them before the day of the eventi am a big procrastinator/lazy.BUT i do feel in my gut that they are here somewhere, and the closet is very overfull.
― one dis leads to another (ian), Monday, 23 April 2012 16:12 (1 year ago) Permalink
Lol my NY experience. I lived there for ~13 years.
― Mordy, Monday, 23 April 2012 16:30 (1 year ago) Permalink
but what % of that time was spent playing magic in a citibank building
― iatee, Monday, 23 April 2012 16:31 (1 year ago) Permalink
is the real question
it's cute tho. the whole "make sure to get as much out of NYC before you have to leave" sentiment :)
― Mordy, Monday, 23 April 2012 17:08 (1 year ago) Permalink
i wasn't trying to insinuate anything! i just mean that you know, any neighborhood is gonna have its own particularities re: travel to other boroughs or neighborhoods, but that's no reason not to take a book on the train for 45 minutes imo.
― one dis leads to another (ian), Monday, 23 April 2012 17:22 (1 year ago) Permalink
also, iatee, i think i may have to bail on u tonight. i cannot find my cards anywhere & it is making me crazy. gonna keep looking and will let u know if i succeed. if NOT, i will 100% absolutely make sure to have found them by next week.
the real question i have, is: what is the possbility I accidentally threw them away while moving? idk. i DID find part of a "rebel" deck in a tote bag though, so that gives me hope. also wonder where my binder with raers is
― one dis leads to another (ian), Monday, 23 April 2012 17:24 (1 year ago) Permalink
if only it was 45 minutes. more like an hour to an hour and a half. and esp since a lot of these MTG events went until late at night it wasn't practical getting home so late
― Mordy, Monday, 23 April 2012 17:24 (1 year ago) Permalink
sux alright keep me updated
― iatee, Monday, 23 April 2012 19:12 (1 year ago) Permalink
cards still not located.
― one dis leads to another (ian), Monday, 23 April 2012 19:21 (1 year ago) Permalink
really annoying!!! worried that i threw them out while moving??
but i also feel like they cld be in a tote bag somewhere buried within another bag or box or under a pile of stuff .
― one dis leads to another (ian), Monday, 23 April 2012 19:22 (1 year ago) Permalink
so i entered a deck in one of their weekly deck-making competitions
― Lamp, Wednesday, 25 April 2012 18:54 (1 year ago) Permalink
what competition? something on the website?
― ciderpress, Wednesday, 25 April 2012 20:47 (1 year ago) Permalink
going to midnight prerelease tonight, because 3 months is just long enough for me to forget how awful it is to be at the game store until 6am
― ciderpress, Friday, 27 April 2012 20:19 (1 year ago) Permalink
Anyone play in this thing? I did and went 2-2; suspected I got a pretty crappy card pool, as I didn't have any playable rares nor any of the real swingy uncommons that dominated me in the matches I lost. That's the impression I got from this set - lots of haymakers, possibly more degenerate things than I've ever seen in limited, and a surprisingly small amount of removal (believe it or not, blue seems like it'll have the easiest time dealing with creatures this time around)
It looks like Gx Soulbound, W/U flickering, and W/R aggro are all going to be the top limited decks, though Black has some very good aggro cards as well (and you can play Angels if you get the right stuff). IMO this set is pretty terrible for Sealed (as you will likely wind up with 15-16 cards towards all those decks and really have to stretch if you don't get the right card pool), but draft should be really fun.
― That's a pretty funky dance, Garfield. Show me how you do it. (frogbs), Monday, 30 April 2012 15:27 (1 year ago) Permalink
yeah i went 4-1 with a U/R tempo deck that had good commons/uncommons but no 'haymakers', so i think i had the opposite impression of the set. Except for the one match I lost to Dark Impostor (had no way to deal with a card that wins the game outside of combat) I felt pretty invincible, since I think about 90% of the room completely misjudged the format as slow when it's actually very fast.
― ciderpress, Monday, 30 April 2012 16:21 (1 year ago) Permalink
i played on sat. i was up 3-1 but i badly misplayed during my final match to finish 3-2. i had 4-5 really solid cards in each color but also lots of total jank so i had a hard time putting together a really solid deck, i ended up going W/R/u humans splashing blue for ghostly flicker, bruna and the 1U unblockable spell. flicker effects and all the excellent etb red cards is really powerful and i probably shouldve gone 3-0 with that deck. my first attempt was with W/U control ft. bruna, a bunch of enchantments and some really good UU cards but i just didnt have enough creatures/removal to make it work and switched after going 1-1.
idk i thought this was a really fun sealed environment - might try to play the actual release next sunday.
― Lamp, Monday, 30 April 2012 16:57 (1 year ago) Permalink
well Soulbond is by nature a very swingy mechanic. since my deck had virtually no removal (as I opened almost none) some of the green ones would just destroy me, especially the +4/+4 one which essentially added 12 extra power for five mana. in general I think this set is designed to do very powerful things in Limited. the flickering + 2/2 flying bounce guy gets out of hand quick (the four mana "bounce two creatures" sorcery is also insanely good), and R/W can deal a ton of damage quick as a big % of those commons and uncommons are designed to be played together. add to this the miracles and abundance of huge flying Angels and things get a bit unhinged.
― That's a pretty funky dance, Garfield. Show me how you do it. (frogbs), Monday, 30 April 2012 17:03 (1 year ago) Permalink
just did my first AVN draft yesterday, as expected it was really fun, and maybe the most complex draft format yet.
first pick was Vexing Devil (which I thought kind of sucked in draft, but it's worth $15 so I'm not passing it) and was able to go mono-red. dunno how much detail I want to go into here but it really feels like there is so much synergy with the Red humans here. Thatcher Revolt is the deck's bread and butter - kind of terrible on its own, but it interacts with SO MUCH in this set. I managed a turn 4 kill with two of them, which I've never done in a draft before.
drafting a fast deck seems like a good strategy - flicker is slow and soulbound is very susceptible to removal. put a premium on 1 and 2 drops (trust me. there aren't many).
― guess it's Honker Burger tonight...#fml (frogbs), Monday, 7 May 2012 14:11 (1 year ago) Permalink
okay, here's another observation - this is one of the most removal-lite draft sets I've ever seen. very little "straight" removal at common. I sorted by commons and found everything that can deal with a creature - it's not pretty
White:Defang - kinda crappy, essentially just reduces a creature's power to 0, but doesn't stop any abilities and can be flickered awayRighteous Blow - great card, but it only does 2 damage
Blue:Mist Raven - great card but it only bouncesCrippling Chill - only stalls a creature for a turnPeel from Reality - more bounce, kinda have to build around cards like thisSpectral Prison - this one actually seems okay, but would need to be sided out a lot
Black:Bone Splinters - this is the ONLY common that actually says "destroy target creature" on it, so it's very good, even if it's card disadvantageDeath Wind - can kill anything, but you almost always pay more for it than the creature you're destroyingGhoulflesh - sideboard at bestUndead Executioner - pseudo-removal, definitely good but -2/-2 doesn't take care of the good soulbounders, plus it takes some work
Red:Guise of Fire - sideboard at bestPillar of Flame - good, but only works on small guysThunderbolt - only kills flyers
So yeah, there are plenty of playables there, but few of the removal spells actually give you mana advantage or card advantage, and of the decent ones, only two are instants! (Righteous Blow and Death Wind)
― frogbs, Tuesday, 8 May 2012 13:38 (1 year ago) Permalink
i think you're really selling Mist Raven and Crippling Chill short, those seem like great cards. Chill stalls a creature for 2 turns, not 1, since you use it on your opponent's turn before they can attack with it, and it's a freeroll card-wise which is always more powerful than it looks/feels. it played very strong for me at the prerelease.
also, Ghoulflesh and Guise of Fire are perfectly maindeckable. -1/-1 removal has been playable in formats with far more removal options than this one
the lack of instant removal is obviously intentional to make sure that the soulbond guys are good and aren't just constantly setting you up to get blown out
― ciderpress, Tuesday, 8 May 2012 22:31 (1 year ago) Permalink
err meant peel, not raven
― ciderpress, Tuesday, 8 May 2012 22:32 (1 year ago) Permalink
raven is the best common in the set though i'm pretty sure
― ciderpress, Tuesday, 8 May 2012 22:37 (1 year ago) Permalink
agreed, but that 2/4 lifelink angel is a very close second. Raven just has more synergy w/ everything.
Crippling Chill okay, the problem is it doesn't really help much vs. Soulbound (since there are usually two scary creatures out) nor Humans (as they will often have a bunch of critters). Feeling of Dread would be way better. But it does seem very good vs. Angels and the Black "loner" architype. And Peel is one of the best commons in the set, I know that - didn't mean to sell that one short, it's obviously great in this format. But I'm not convinced on the -1 toughness effects - Guise of Fire I like a little better since you can get a few other minor uses out of it, these cards *are* maindeckable but IMO they'd get cut fast if I had too many playables.
Basically it seems like the lack of instant removal is making the Soulbounders a little too good, especially the green +X/+X guys. I don't think this is a problem, just keep in mind that A) Druid's Familiar is really a windmill slam first pick, and B) instant removal is at a premium, and hell I think Peel from Reality may even be first pickable.
― frogbs, Tuesday, 8 May 2012 23:40 (1 year ago) Permalink
is human frailty an uncommon?
ive maindecked guise of fire in two sealed tournaments and not really regretted it, its good as early removal and really anything you can use to disrupt soulbond is v v worthwhile
― Lamp, Tuesday, 8 May 2012 23:48 (1 year ago) Permalink
it only disrupts Wingcrafter, the Lookout, and the Peddler though. IMO the +1/+1 guy is the one you have to worry about (in common at least)
Human Frality is uncommon, but super maindeckable
― frogbs, Wednesday, 9 May 2012 00:44 (1 year ago) Permalink
well i meant 'disrupt' in the sense of forcing them into bad trades or 2 for 1s that will break up bonded pairs and not just using it as straight removal
i feel like there are a lot of really good commons and uncommons in this set and a lot of kinda terrible rares (in limited). should be fun to draft
― Lamp, Wednesday, 9 May 2012 01:07 (1 year ago) Permalink
wait till you randomly lose to a Bonfire of the Damned, that'll change your mind
― frogbs, Wednesday, 9 May 2012 01:31 (1 year ago) Permalink
someone passed me Entreat the Angels at FNM last week, which is a $20 card on top of being an insane bomb. was pretty clear from the other good stuff he passed me that he was pretty much oblivious so i felt kinda bad but if you don't even know enough to know what the chase cards in the set are then i dunno
― ciderpress, Wednesday, 9 May 2012 02:25 (1 year ago) Permalink
yeah i've had that happen with a Snapcaster, I had to tell the guy "hey uhhh, back up, this thing is worth money" (I'd feel like shit otherwise)one of the great things about the first couple weeks of a set's release is that some people really just don't read all the cards, I got an Ulvenwald Tracker Pack 1 as a 7th pick, which is insane, the guy's even better than Daybreak Ranger
― frogbs, Wednesday, 9 May 2012 02:34 (1 year ago) Permalink
someone passed me Entreat the Angels at FNM last week
i would feel so bad but also so good about this
haha i pulled a vexing devil in my sealed pool last saturday and was really surprised to find out it was worth decent money for some reason i thought it was still like a $4 rare...
i was really bummed though cuz i left the cards i wasnt playing with behind on the table after a match and by the time i realized what had happened someone had scooped them up :// nothing supervaluable but it sucked nonetheless
― Lamp, Wednesday, 9 May 2012 02:44 (1 year ago) Permalink
xp yeah i love the few weeks between the set release and when the top players start putting up their draft videos, at which point everyone suddenly starts drafting much better
― ciderpress, Wednesday, 9 May 2012 13:41 (1 year ago) Permalink
I haven't played since Ice Age, but downloaded the Magic 2013 Duel of the Planeswalkers for ipad and it's slowly coming back to me, even though the cards are all new. Has anyone else tried the app? Or are you all physical cards only? I haven't paid to unlock it yet but would do so if there were people that played.
― EZ Snappin, Saturday, 23 June 2012 01:03 (10 months ago) Permalink
wow there is an ipad app? how much is it
I would be into that and also would play with you 4 sure
― iatee, Saturday, 23 June 2012 02:31 (10 months ago) Permalink
Free to try out and I think $10 to unlock all the decks, campaign and multiplayer stuff.
― EZ Snappin, Saturday, 23 June 2012 02:57 (10 months ago) Permalink
I am currently dl'ing it, taking forever but I imagine it's huge. how many decks are all the decks? is there single player?
― iatee, Saturday, 23 June 2012 03:00 (10 months ago) Permalink
there is a single player campaign, and you can play against any of the decks you've unlocked. I think there are 15 or do decks.
― EZ Snappin, Saturday, 23 June 2012 03:04 (10 months ago) Permalink
that's interesting. how well does the computer play?
― iatee, Saturday, 23 June 2012 03:05 (10 months ago) Permalink
I've only played the intro section and I win most of the time. They seem to play their cards well, but the shuffle can be cruel.
― EZ Snappin, Saturday, 23 June 2012 03:24 (10 months ago) Permalink
I like this.
I'd prob prefer a version w/ less sparkles but I think the 'unlock cards/decks/etc' actually seems like a pretty good way to go about an ipad game. I'll def drop 10 bucks on it. you can hit me up whenever. do you know if you can play with internet randos too?
― iatee, Saturday, 23 June 2012 04:05 (10 months ago) Permalink
no idea. I haven't dropped the $10 yet. My next couple of days are crazy, but I'll pick it up the beginning of the week. Game Center ID is EZSnappin.
― EZ Snappin, Saturday, 23 June 2012 04:09 (10 months ago) Permalink
alright this is the first time I've given money to wotc since uh....1998
the AI is far from perfect, I'd prefer the game w/ fewer sparkly flourishes + if they kept all the turn phases + more decks, obvs. but this is def wayyy beyond yr average ipad game and well worth $10.
― iatee, Saturday, 23 June 2012 22:16 (10 months ago) Permalink
― Mordy, Saturday, 23 June 2012 23:14 (10 months ago) Permalink
I just played one w/ a stranger (won, obv). it's pretty good, I think. it allows you to connect to a random person or someone you know. no chat feature but the game played well and quickly.
overall I think this is a great app. the not-insignificant drawback is the limited supply of decks / the limits to deckbuilding and the fact that most of the decks are pretty straightforward and creature heavy. some of the more interesting dynamics of the game aren't around w/ the cards available...makes it easier for the app to do most of the gameplay work for you (w/r/t tapping, life, drawing, etc.). sometimes the fact that it's so automatic can make it hard to do something more nuanced, tho.
as far as playing a random game of magic w/ a stranger or decent-AI, it def works well and looks good.
― iatee, Saturday, 23 June 2012 23:26 (10 months ago) Permalink
maybe i'll get this. how does it feel re: touch interaction? do you tap cards w/ finger to tap them, or do you actually do turning motion on screen? also, is it a stress to read the cards or does stuff look pretty big (w/out cluttering screen)? cause that program we used (i forget what it's called) was such a pain to try and read what every card did.
― Mordy, Saturday, 23 June 2012 23:29 (10 months ago) Permalink
you can easily make a card bigger by clicking on it. you rarely tap stuff yourself, it taps mana for you, you're mostly just dragging stuff across or onto the playing field. I've never been in a situation where it'd matter what lands get tapped (almost all the decks are single color) but I'm curious if it knows enough to give you options.
one problem is there's no 'go back' feature if you accidentally tap the wrong thing, which can happen w/ a pretty fastpaced game. but as far as ipad-ness goes, the game works really well.
― iatee, Saturday, 23 June 2012 23:37 (10 months ago) Permalink
tell me how it works when you unlock a dual mana deck! i think i'd be really frustrated if it chose for you which color mana u wanna tap for uncolored costs
― Mordy, Saturday, 23 June 2012 23:45 (10 months ago) Permalink
iirc there is only one. but you can dl the free version and play around to get a feel for what the $10 game is. I think they have constructed the game sorta-purposely so that the frustrating moments are less likely to arrive to begin with.
― iatee, Saturday, 23 June 2012 23:50 (10 months ago) Permalink
in the PC version you can hold ctrl or something to bring up a list of options for how to tap mana. not sure if/how that's replicated on the ipad but the option might be in there somewhere
― ciderpress, Sunday, 24 June 2012 00:56 (10 months ago) Permalink
I actually unlocked the dual color deck and it seemed to sorta assume the obvious choice when the situation came up. but w/ only one dual color deck it's not really a big issue.
― iatee, Sunday, 24 June 2012 02:23 (10 months ago) Permalink
like did it take into account what cards you had in your hand? or did a situation not come up where you had an instant u may have wanted to save mana for?
― Mordy, Sunday, 24 June 2012 02:28 (10 months ago) Permalink
didn't come up
but again I think they've sorta done that on purpose w/ the card selection
― iatee, Sunday, 24 June 2012 04:13 (10 months ago) Permalink
I just really wish they'd remake Shandalar but that seems like such a longshot
― frogbs, Sunday, 24 June 2012 06:13 (10 months ago) Permalink
the thing that's come closest to scratching my shandalar itch is magarena - the AI is *really good* and with the right cube there's an amazing feeling of "all bombs all the time" and every card is joyously unfamiliar if you haven't played since 2001 or whatever.
but still shandalar o man that game was just so amazing. let's quit our jobs and remake shandalar guys.
― Gravel Puzzleworth, Sunday, 24 June 2012 11:05 (10 months ago) Permalink
wait by shandalar you mean the 1997 microprose game right?
― iatee, Sunday, 24 June 2012 13:44 (10 months ago) Permalink
that would be pretty ipadable come to think of it
― iatee, Sunday, 24 June 2012 13:45 (10 months ago) Permalink
the AI in that game was really weird - it generally understood how to attack and block and when to play instants, but it would also randomly Giant Growth your creatures so it would die faster.
― frogbs, Sunday, 24 June 2012 16:51 (10 months ago) Permalink
yeah I remember that. the AI in this isn't perfect, but it's pretty good all things considered. like it sometimes misses the higher level thinking moves but doesn't do anything completely inexplicable.
― iatee, Sunday, 24 June 2012 17:56 (10 months ago) Permalink
i guess i'll have to give this thing a try then. i'm already getting big into Magic Online - the "draft anytime" thing really is neat, and I'm doing well enough in AVR that I don't have to redeposit, so to speak
― frogbs, Monday, 25 June 2012 14:50 (10 months ago) Permalink
yeah i play on Magic Online a bit - my favorite thing about it is that they can randomly bring back old draft formats that are long out of print in paper. they've got Invasion block drafts up right now which was a great format that i would never have gotten to play again otherwise
― ciderpress, Monday, 25 June 2012 16:58 (10 months ago) Permalink
what's your name on there?
i dig MTGO (its easy once you get past the state-of-1998 interface they got), and yes that is exactly what i love about it. plus the cube randomly coming and going is pretty nice. also it's so easy to unload everything you don't need; you don't really get taken advantage of the way you do in real life
― frogbs, Monday, 25 June 2012 18:24 (10 months ago) Permalink
my name on there is 'smh'
also i hope you've discovered the momir basic format, the real #1 reason to own a mtgo account
― ciderpress, Monday, 25 June 2012 18:39 (10 months ago) Permalink
the avatar is ridiculously expensive (like 15 tix!), but yes it's definitely the second coolest thing (after the drafting). I don't have one yet but my buddy has it so I'm pretty familiar with it. Sucks getting Phage at 7 though :(
― frogbs, Monday, 25 June 2012 18:43 (10 months ago) Permalink
theres a momir event deck in the actual store for 10 tix, unless they took it out? anyway its well worth 10 bucks, the format is great and its something that can't really be replicated in paper magic
― ciderpress, Monday, 25 June 2012 18:55 (10 months ago) Permalink
once you spend $10 for MTG Online, can you play it and enjoy it w/out dropping an additional $300?
― Mordy, Monday, 25 June 2012 19:49 (10 months ago) Permalink
depends what you want to do. I started w/ 50 tix which seemed steep but I've managed to wring some 20+ drafts out of that, and I still have like 20 tickets, 6 packs, and a bunch of cards to unload. if you want to do Standard it's fine, most cards are like 30-50% of their paper value, so it's not a huge investment. of course chase mythics are worth about the same as they are in real life (sadly)
― frogbs, Monday, 25 June 2012 20:15 (10 months ago) Permalink
i would play the fuck out of an MTG LCG
― Mordy, Monday, 25 June 2012 20:20 (10 months ago) Permalink
but fuck CCG's tbh
yeah MTGO is not for folks who don't want to spend much $. there's Cockatrice for that
― ciderpress, Monday, 25 June 2012 20:22 (10 months ago) Permalink
I really love playing the white lifegain deck in this
I just lost to the computer despite having 120 life because they were able to make 5 32/32 creatures
― iatee, Friday, 29 June 2012 02:58 (10 months ago) Permalink
Battle of Wits confirmed for M13
― frogbs, Friday, 29 June 2012 14:43 (10 months ago) Permalink
so far there's nothing too exciting in there otherwise (Thragtusk seems really good in this meta, and that mythic dragon is probably the best tournament-level dragon ever printed, at least among ones you actually want to attack with), except A) they seem to strongly hint that duals will be back next set in some capacity and B) so far, no Mana Leak
― frogbs, Friday, 29 June 2012 14:47 (10 months ago) Permalink
im holding out hope for timely reinforcements since i just bought a playset two weeks ago. but w/e cards are in m13 im just excited not to be drafting avacyn much longer
i bought duels because i wanted the promo cards (:/) but havent played it yet.
― Lamp, Friday, 29 June 2012 16:43 (10 months ago) Permalink
Yeah I'm getting a little tired of AVR draft though I've been doing so well with it online that it's kind of hard to quit
― frogbs, Friday, 29 June 2012 17:04 (10 months ago) Permalink
yeah i went 4-0 last night at a local draft and have won the last couple of 8-4s i played. it seems like an easier format than DII because there are fewer decks or potential lines of play? i mean im also probably just better at magic atp too but thats how it feels rn
― Lamp, Friday, 29 June 2012 17:06 (10 months ago) Permalink
Well DII was definitely very interesting because certain cards' values were completely different depending on what kind of deck you got - the 1B 2/1 flying can't block guy (Interloper?) was incredible in R/B vampires and almost unplayable in U/B zombies. I haven't really seen that in a draft format before. AVR is more about exploiting synergy between specific cards; Thatcher Revolt and Flowering Lumberknot are the two big examples, but really there are a lot of 2-card combos with just commons and the occassional uncommon. Soulbound obviously influences this a lot. I still think it's skill-intensive (every draft format is) but there are a lot of bomby plays with no real answer (Goldnight Commander + Thatcher Revolt comes to mind)
― frogbs, Friday, 29 June 2012 17:11 (10 months ago) Permalink
My son and I played a bunch of MTG this weekend. We are both neophytes with a biggish collection of random grab bag cards. I'd like to add something fun and not too expensive to our collection but am bewildered by the options. What should I get?
― Moodles, Monday, 2 July 2012 02:06 (10 months ago) Permalink
I think there are a lot of "beginner" sets out there. Core sets are usually good for this as they can be fun w/o much complexity. If you're just looking for cards, most stores will have bulk commons that you can get for cheap, especially if you're at a place where people draft a lot.
On a related note, all of M13 has been spoiled, and it seems intentionally weaker than the last few sets - Ponder, Mana Leak, and Cancel are all gone (nerfing Delver), BoP is gone (huh?), and there seem to only be a couple of chase rares (Thragtusk, the new Ajani, and the 5/5 haste dragon). Actually I'm kind of excited to see what this does to Standard in 3 months.
― frogbs, Monday, 2 July 2012 14:05 (10 months ago) Permalink
xp pick up some of the duel decks! they have some very cool mechanics, neat interactions, and when you're bored w/ the deal makeup, you can pull out the powerful cards (generally some planeswalkers + other interesting pieces) and put them in new decks. i particularly like the Ajani Vs Nicol Bolas decks if u can find them.
― Mordy, Monday, 2 July 2012 14:10 (10 months ago) Permalink
barring a reprint in Return to Ravnica it looks like Birds of Paradise is finally gone...thoughts??
― frogbs, Monday, 2 July 2012 22:16 (10 months ago) Permalink
one of my fave alltime cards since i was a grade school student. RIP.
― Mordy, Monday, 2 July 2012 23:38 (10 months ago) Permalink
it would be like serra angel going out of print
serra angel was actually gone from 5th and 6th editions, I sorta left around 6th so at that point serra angel felt like it was done
duels app is doing thing thing where it crashes at the startup screen - already did this to me once and I reinstalled and lost my progress. prob gonna reinstall again. annoying, tho considering how quick the progress is it's kinda w/e.
― iatee, Tuesday, 3 July 2012 03:52 (10 months ago) Permalink
i was a big fan of the card too, but it is kind of out of flavor for green and IMO the 'flying' part of it has always been awkward, so I understand why "it's super popular" isn't keeping it around anymore
― frogbs, Tuesday, 3 July 2012 05:05 (10 months ago) Permalink
Just bought the 2013 version of the Deck Builder's Toolkit and am very happy with it. My son and I have been playing around with it for most of the weekend. Would definitely like to pick up some more of the Innistrad-style cards as I really like the gothic/colonial designs.
― Moodles, Sunday, 22 July 2012 22:48 (9 months ago) Permalink
M13 is pretty great to draft, it has a lot of breadth of strategy which is unusual for a core set
i have high hopes for the new Ravnica block, though they're treading on dangerous ground since the original Ravnica was their most popular set ever. the block structure and prerelease gimmick seem brilliant though
― ciderpress, Wednesday, 25 July 2012 15:43 (9 months ago) Permalink
Agreed on M13 draft. It's actually quite fun and has the kind of inter-card synergy that the other core sets lacked. Alas, it seems like every time I draft it I get my ass kicked by either Krenko (who I never seem to have removal for) or Sands of Delirium (which is one of the dumbest cards for Limited, ever)
RtR is probably going to be amazing. But I would really love to see the Magic community go apeshit if the duals don't get reprinted XD
― frogbs, Wednesday, 25 July 2012 15:55 (9 months ago) Permalink
I have been watching a lot of MTG streaming lately, it's in the air I guess! Pumped for M13.
Also also I had an idea! I wonder if anyone here might go for it? It's based on:
1) Magic is the best u guys.2) Magic is the best when you're 12 and can't just look up the best decks on the internet, that basically ruins everything.3) Magic costs way too much money.
What if we all got MTGO accounts and made decks and vowed to only spend exactly $1 a week on cards? You could spend it or save it or whatever - most cards outside the top playables are like $0.05 on there so we'd start with complete rubbish and slowly develop this weird metagame of our own. I am totally on for this, magic is the best.
― Gravel Puzzleworth, Wednesday, 25 July 2012 16:15 (9 months ago) Permalink
I've been saying that the internet ruined Magic for years
― frogbs, Wednesday, 25 July 2012 16:19 (9 months ago) Permalink
if enough ppl are interested, i'll participate. $1 a week definitely reasonable, esp if there's a bunch of ilxors to play w/
― Mordy, Wednesday, 25 July 2012 16:19 (9 months ago) Permalink
haha the funniest thing is that after drafting AVR so heavily my first few M13 drafts i had to stop myself from going on autopilot after like 5 picks because i gotten so used to there not being any playables after that point.
every time I draft it I get my ass kicked by either Krenko
haha on sunday during i draft i opened krenko P1P1 and then got passed an arms dealer pack 2. i ended up with two arms dealers and a bunch of other goblins incl two krenko's command and went monored. of course i lost 1-2 in the finals to a dude w/ a super efficient U/w fliers deck :/
― Lamp, Wednesday, 25 July 2012 17:32 (9 months ago) Permalink
Yeah the lack of playables really makes 4-pack sealed a dumb format in AVR. And yet it's by far the best value on MTGO. Go figure.
My first M13 draft, someone got Krenko's Command, Arms Dealer, Krenko by turn 4 both games while I just stared at my hand full of Pacifisms and Divine Verdicts and silently wept
― frogbs, Wednesday, 25 July 2012 18:33 (9 months ago) Permalink
My wife recently confident to me that she wanted to play Magic real bad in the late 90s, and even went so far as to buy a few decks, but couldn't convince anyone to play with her.
― how's life, Wednesday, 25 July 2012 18:56 (9 months ago) Permalink
So much yes :( Totally want that schoolyard 'there's an archetype that does what?' atmosphere back again, where we are all somehow maindecking 4 flashfire to deal with rev's kithkin control deck that we can't beat any other way.
― Gravel Puzzleworth, Wednesday, 25 July 2012 21:09 (9 months ago) Permalink
haha well you could always just play limited
― Lamp, Thursday, 26 July 2012 00:06 (9 months ago) Permalink
I played limited today! It was funnnnn.
― Gravel Puzzleworth, Thursday, 2 August 2012 23:24 (9 months ago) Permalink
what did you play? I keep getting tempted but wimping out.
― iatee, Thursday, 2 August 2012 23:34 (9 months ago) Permalink
And it has the most absurdly complex rules for anything I have ever seen.
Ha, the thread starter really hasn't delved too much into the world of nerdy fantasy games. I've always thought Magic is pretty simple.
― I wish to incorporate disco into my small business (chap), Thursday, 2 August 2012 23:40 (9 months ago) Permalink
the basic rules of magic are pretty simple but if you want to get into the rules lawyer stuff it can get pretty complex
― iatee, Thursday, 2 August 2012 23:42 (9 months ago) Permalink
once you start talking about the stack...
― Mordy, Thursday, 2 August 2012 23:45 (9 months ago) Permalink
M13 draft - opened Oblivion Ring and then went WB for ALL THE REMOVAL - 2xMurder, 2xPacifism, Public Execution, Crippling Blight and Divine Verdict. Kinda forget to get any creatures but went 2-1.
Magic is funnnnnn.
― Gravel Puzzleworth, Friday, 3 August 2012 01:00 (9 months ago) Permalink
<i>what did you play? I keep getting tempted but wimping out.</i>
If you're intimidated by limited the best format is definitely sealed, as it removes a bunch of decision points, you are pretty much guaranteed to get a serviceable deck, you can experiment with different deck types in different games, and all the queues are swiss, so you should get four somewhat close matches. Plus, if you lose, you can just blame it on the other guy being lucky enough to open a bunch of bombs. Sealed events on MTGO also typically offer better EV than drafts (for example, four pack sealed does not have an entry fee and only requires four packs, so the prizes are all gravy). The best time to dip your toes into limited is actually right now, as I type this: core sets are less complicated than expansions, everyone plays sealed when a set first comes out, and since the set is pretty new, there are going to be a bunch of other people who aren't totally sure what they're doing, which means your games will probably be closer than if you tried starting at the end of a set's life.
― webber, Friday, 3 August 2012 03:44 (9 months ago) Permalink
apparently some people in nyc are pretty srs players and I need to brush up on the rules
― iatee, Friday, 3 August 2012 03:45 (9 months ago) Permalink
also what do I need to bring? I have no 20 sided die or land or anything anymore!
― iatee, Friday, 3 August 2012 03:46 (9 months ago) Permalink
any store will have a land box you can pull from and you can just use a notepad and pen to keep track of life + everyone will have dice to borrow if you need to, the first couple of times i just showed up w/nothing but the draft entry fee and it was totally fine
i drafted tonight as well but did p horrible, i was passed nicol bolas and just kinda went w/ it but ended up spread too thin across all three colors and my mana was horrible (despite two dual lands), i was p lucky to go 2-2
― what makes you think its a pun (Lamp), Friday, 3 August 2012 03:52 (9 months ago) Permalink
that's what I vaguely remembered but again I am pulling up memories from the 4th grade
― iatee, Friday, 3 August 2012 03:53 (9 months ago) Permalink
nicol bolas is the dream everyone has to reach for. shame on whoever passed it to you
― webber, Friday, 3 August 2012 06:30 (9 months ago) Permalink
Sometimes you fly too close to the sun. I had a buddy first pick a Nicol and force those 3 colors, winding up with a really awful deck, but when he landed it's like...ohhh who's laughing now?
― frogbs, Friday, 3 August 2012 13:47 (9 months ago) Permalink
Also anyone on MTGO should try Momir Basic. Basically the rules are: your deck is all basic land, and during your turn you can pay X and discard a card to summon a RANDOM creature that costs X. If you're a skill guy you'll probably wind up disliking it but it's a pretty fun way to kill twenty minutes!
― frogbs, Friday, 3 August 2012 13:49 (9 months ago) Permalink
more limited tips - iatee you might know all this crap already but might as well have it in this thread somewhere
a useful mnemonic that people use for pick orders/card evaluations in limited is BREAD:B = bombs. basically any card that can swing the game heavily in your favor if not immediately dealt with. large flying creatures, planeswalkers, mass removal, etc. these are usually rares and they're usually obvious.R = removal. cards that can deal with all or most of your opponent's threats. examples: Pacifism, Murder, Searing Spear. Situational removal spells (e.g. Divine Verdict, Crippling Blight, Prey Upon) and temporary removal like Unsummon are trickier to evaluate so make sure your deck can use them properly.E = evasion. flying, unblockable, trample, intimidate, sometimes first strike. creatures with abilities that make them difficult to block and can often break through a board stall.A = aggressive cards. this is sort of a catch-all for solid creatures, good combat tricks, etc. look for guys with high power relative to their casting cost. also you want your early plays to be able to 'trade up' with a larger creature and your later plays to avoid 'trading down' with a smaller creature. A 3/3 is often better than a 4/2 for this reason.D = defensive cards. yeah, sometimes you can draft a sweet control deck, but in general, especially as an inexperienced player, you're going to win more games by pressuring your opponent and putting the onus on them to make the right decisions. leave the walls and blockers in your sideboard unless they're likely to trade with something efficiently (e.g. the 1/2 deathtouch spider is actually a high pick because it's essentially removal).
― ciderpress, Friday, 3 August 2012 15:57 (9 months ago) Permalink
Yeah that's a good start. When I began drafting a lot the only tips I got was "creature removal first, then creatures, everything else sucks". Basically the implication there was "don't take goofy creature enchantments" like so many newer players do. The problem with that acronym is that say in M13 there are many times I'd take a Fog Bank over Wind Drake even though the E is higher than D.
My only real tip for draft is to be aware of mana costs. If two cards are about equal value, go with the one that isn't a 3-drop. Because pretty much every limited format is FULL of good 3-drops. Also be weary of cards with double mana symbols (something that costs WW is tough to play turn 2, really)
― frogbs, Friday, 3 August 2012 16:02 (9 months ago) Permalink
specific tips for M13:
-the format is fairly slow compared to other recent sets. bears (2 power guys for 2 mana) without relevant abilities should be considered filler if you're short on turn 2 plays or creatures. don't be afraid to cut them from your maindeck.
-despite being a slow set, there isn't much color fixing so i'd avoid playing more than 2 colors
-the exalted mechanic plays a lot stronger than it looks. every creature with exalted is a solid playable, even the 0/4 wall.
-Faerie Invaders is the only common i can think of that's a potential blowout, so be wary of its existence when attacking
― ciderpress, Friday, 3 August 2012 16:20 (9 months ago) Permalink
Also, W/G and B/G decks with exalted and tramplers (such as the 4/2 guy for 3G) can be very powerful. Like the last set with Bloodthirst, Exalted is more powerful than it looks because the set is designed to take advantage of it.
― frogbs, Friday, 3 August 2012 16:29 (9 months ago) Permalink
do mtg players make good or bad poker players and how strong is the correlation
― thomp, Friday, 3 August 2012 16:33 (9 months ago) Permalink
let's ask d3athdr0n3
― "Pffft" --buddha (silby), Friday, 3 August 2012 16:37 (9 months ago) Permalink
the 2 MTG/poker crossover guys i can name off the top of my head are David Williams and Eric Froelich, not sure how good they are at poker though since i don't follow that
― ciderpress, Friday, 3 August 2012 16:44 (9 months ago) Permalink
if you don't think i have a long post on this on the way, you got another thing comin
― frogbs, Friday, 3 August 2012 17:07 (9 months ago) Permalink
in my experience with both (much more w/ poker than mtg tbh) some game proficiency carries over throughout a bunch of different games, but the skillsets are different enough (and the stakes and level of competition in poker so much higher than mtg) that i wouldn't expect a great mtg player to necessarily be a great poker player. i do think a great poker player could probably pick up mtg at a high level fairly quickly.
― Mordy, Friday, 3 August 2012 17:10 (9 months ago) Permalink
Anyway, I don't think the coorelation is strong, but I would think that MTG players turned poker players in general would be better than randoms. MTG is more about figuring out how a bunch of moving parts are going to interact while poker is more about figuring out how your opponent is going to react to a certain action and how he's going to play certain groups of hands. Case in point; if you could see your opponent's cards in poker you would never lose. In MTG knowing what your opponent has is only a small advantage. The card Gitaxian Probe lets you see for 2 life or one blue mana, plus it replaces itself. That would be like something in poker allowing you to see what your opponent has by throwing out a small blind. Plus in poker, everyone plays off the same deck. A good MTG deckbuilder is not going to get into situations often where their cards are worthless because his or her decks are going to be set up to maximize their resources. Whereas the best poker players get dealt 72 and miss flush draws all the time (regardless of what the Bond movies tell you).
The best poker player I know is really bad at Magic; he misses a lot of minor advantages all the time. The best Magic player is a guy who very rarely makes a mistake and is a great deckbuilder and he's such a huge fish at poker that we actually kind of lamented the fact that he moved away.
― frogbs, Friday, 3 August 2012 17:22 (9 months ago) Permalink
wouldn't you need a bunch of them in your deck though? if peek for one blue or two life was attached to er a permanent it seems like it'd be way overpowered. nb i have not played magic in ten years.
poker to me seems like a weird meta-game/superstructure of pushing counters around, the apparent 'game' part with the cards just an algorithm ... which isn't much like anything in the interlocking systems in magic, though i guess the meta-gaming/'reading people' stuff gets displaced to deck-building
― thomp, Saturday, 4 August 2012 13:05 (9 months ago) Permalink
its interesting because knowing your opponents hand is not actually considered to be worth a card - Telepathy has been around for more than 10 years and was never played in competitive decks
― ciderpress, Saturday, 4 August 2012 14:41 (9 months ago) Permalink
huh, fantastic. i suppose there's few ways to action it - there's no 'discard target card from opponent's hand'
― thomp, Saturday, 4 August 2012 14:42 (9 months ago) Permalink
there is, and its a tournament staple: http://magiccards.info/lw/en/145.html
― ciderpress, Saturday, 4 August 2012 14:45 (9 months ago) Permalink
though i guess that lets you look anyway
― ciderpress, Saturday, 4 August 2012 14:46 (9 months ago) Permalink
haha er never mind then! well.
― thomp, Saturday, 4 August 2012 14:46 (9 months ago) Permalink
is there any way to search all this stuff by effect? or do you learn about x thousand cards via harried study of past games by candlelight etc etc
― thomp, Saturday, 4 August 2012 14:47 (9 months ago) Permalink
http://magiccards.info/search.html is the best card search engine i know of - i mostly just know this shit from playing the game on and off for my whole life
― ciderpress, Saturday, 4 August 2012 14:48 (9 months ago) Permalink
ha, there are 108 cards with some version of 'target player reveals hand'. also this:
― thomp, Saturday, 4 August 2012 14:57 (9 months ago) Permalink
i think a large part of why i never got into magic all that much was that there's this vastly complex set of possibilities for different interacting effects of various kinds, but unfortunately it always has to come down to 'get this one number from 20 to 0'. i guess at high level play there's people doing y'know 'combos' and stuff and trying to set up win conditions but then it's kind of, do it before your opponent reduces this one number from 20 to 0
― thomp, Saturday, 4 August 2012 15:00 (9 months ago) Permalink
haha zur's weirding was one of the 2 rares in the first magic thing i ever bought (5th edition starter deck). the other rare was Nightmare which i was a lot more excited about at the time
― ciderpress, Saturday, 4 August 2012 15:01 (9 months ago) Permalink
xp well there's mill strategies too but I think that whole idea is kind of disengenuous, a deck focused on creature combat vs. a deck that tries to do a massive Tendrils of Agony feel completely different even though they accomplish the same end goal
― frogbs, Saturday, 4 August 2012 19:20 (9 months ago) Permalink
its kind of like saying, football is boring because it always comes down to who scores the most touchdowns and field goals
― frogbs, Saturday, 4 August 2012 20:25 (9 months ago) Permalink
When the real reason it's boring is that it takes 800 years to complete 60 minutes of gameplay.
― "Pffft" --buddha (silby), Saturday, 4 August 2012 20:30 (9 months ago) Permalink
Kind of obsessed with this game right now.
― Gravel Puzzleworth, Tuesday, 7 August 2012 15:33 (9 months ago) Permalink
Thinking of trying out a FNM booster draft to see what it's like, but I feel pretty intimidated.
― Moodles, Tuesday, 7 August 2012 15:51 (9 months ago) Permalink
this works and doesn't work, i guess
i went to the nerd store yesterday. no one was playing magic: the gathering, though there was an ad for midnight d&d sessions.
― thomp, Tuesday, 7 August 2012 16:15 (9 months ago) Permalink
Do it! I have drafted twice since coming back to magic, coming 2nd and 3rd, and you're at least as good as I am. Seriously you'll be at a table with 8 dudes and three will be pretty bad, you might seriously be surprised how well you do.
Read this before drafting M13, it's amazing: http://legitmtg.com/competitive/of-limited-interest-your-complete-guide-to-drafting-m13/
― Gravel Puzzleworth, Tuesday, 7 August 2012 22:52 (9 months ago) Permalink
haha me too! i was super proud because i finally got my rating above 1800 and then was filled with shame, disappointment
― what makes you think its a pun (Lamp), Wednesday, 8 August 2012 17:26 (9 months ago) Permalink
i dont think that legitmtg article is v otm tho, triple AVR was a really good draft format for one and her card rankings arent great
― what makes you think its a pun (Lamp), Wednesday, 8 August 2012 17:28 (9 months ago) Permalink
OK so I tried out this Magic Online thing a bit. I've got a dilemma though, because while MtGO has an advantage in terms of actually getting to play without having to go to a game store and hang out with creepy teens, the prospect of paying $4 a booster for non-real cards doesn't really entice me from an ownership perspective. Also the app is so terrible building decks for constructed (as if) seems like it'd be a shitshow.
Also if it's digital why are the old expansions out of print? Does Hasbro take a cut of the digital secondary market?
― "Pffft" --buddha (silby), Wednesday, 8 August 2012 17:31 (9 months ago) Permalink
theres no real defense for mtgo pricing it just is although i havent had to deposit since i first started drafting seriously
― Lamp, Wednesday, 8 August 2012 17:34 (9 months ago) Permalink
don't ever buy boosters from the store; buy tix then get boosters from a bot.
Also if it's digital why are the old expansions out of print?
because of people who think this:
the prospect of paying $4 a booster for non-real cards doesn't really entice me
for me, I do a lot of 4-pack sealed, which have no entry fee in tix, just the 4 boosters. prizes are 5 packs for 3-0, 3 for 2-1, and 1 for 1-2. I win about 65-70% of my matches so I average three packs per event, therefore each booster (which are like 3.2 tix right now) is really about four, which makes it a lot better.
the cards ARE backed by something physical (if you collect the whole set, they will allow you to trade in the digital cards for real ones), and outside of the money mythics, the prices of MTGO cards are about 50% less than in real life. for AVR, I would venture that 3 tickets can buy you like, 85% of the entire set. basically; if you're not doing sealed or draft, just buy individual cards from bots.
― frogbs, Wednesday, 8 August 2012 18:27 (9 months ago) Permalink
yeah I think there's a lot of hyperbole on her criticisms of AVR; you can reduce every format to dumb stuff like that
I think a lot of her advice is good, but saying Elderscale Wurm (a huge bomb that many decks simply won't be able to win against) is anything like Omniscience (a 10-mana "do nothing" in Limited) is truly bizarre. I skimmed over the pick orders and think some of it is out of whack (I really do think Goblin Battle Jester is trash - you don't get to "controlling your opponent’s ability to block" unless you have a bunch of red spells queued up), but pick orders are dumb to begin with. Also Switcharoo over Sleep is ridiculous.
― frogbs, Wednesday, 8 August 2012 18:38 (9 months ago) Permalink
1800 is pretty impressive to me!
Yeah I don't think that list is perfect or anything but if you haven't drafted in a million years / ever it's a really good read and a lot better than going in blind!
I think Battle Jester is pretty playable? Like, the ability seems a lot better than haste, which it's costed comparable to.
― Gravel Puzzleworth, Friday, 10 August 2012 07:01 (9 months ago) Permalink
What do you guys make of Sands of Delirium?
― Gravel Puzzleworth, Friday, 10 August 2012 07:04 (9 months ago) Permalink
I've seen Battle Jester do okay, the problem is it costs four for a 2/2 creature which is just not going to keep up with any other color, and it doesn't do anything unless you cast another spell. If you've curved out you may not have many red cards left to play. If you haven't, "target creature cannot block" isn't going to help you much. I'd get behind this card as a 2R 2/1, but as is I'm not a fan.
As for Sands; very few cards in any color that I'd pick over it, it's this set's Moonsilver Spear, as in it's an artifact that sucks up a lot of mana but basically says if you can't deal with it in 2 or 3 turns you lose. I look forward to losing a lot of games against that in 4-pack Sealed!
― frogbs, Friday, 10 August 2012 13:34 (9 months ago) Permalink
I do visit Mt Gox at times
― Sweet Organic Princess (Latham Green), Friday, 10 August 2012 14:24 (9 months ago) Permalink
worryingly tempted to start playing mtg online
― thomp, Friday, 10 August 2012 14:45 (9 months ago) Permalink
it's like an online poker addiction you can't kid yourself you'll ever get rich from!
― thomp, Friday, 10 August 2012 14:46 (9 months ago) Permalink
hard to blow a thousand tix in two hours though
― frogbs, Friday, 10 August 2012 14:56 (9 months ago) Permalink
As for Sands; very few cards in any color that I'd pick over it, it's this set's Moonsilver Spear
haha this sets moonsilver spear is staff of nin! idk there are quite a few more outs to sands including one that just stone kills it so i dont think its quite as strong although its p good in sealed, yeah.
with battle jester i think the biggest problem is where he fits on the curve - the deck that wants him the most needs him to come down earlier or have an immediate impact on the board the turn hes cast. thats why haste is so much better - you get to immediately push through damage or at least effect the board on turn four instead of just doing nothing. like if you're curving into arsonist - flunkies - brute than youd much rather have canyon minatour to help block or even two drop + spear or w/e. combined with the fact that its very easy to have a decent board presence on turn five against an aggro red deck and what the red deck really wants to do is use stuff like trumpet blast or chandra's fury to trade UP against the other decks better creatures his ability just seems fairly anti-synergistic to me and a waste of a card slot
― Lamp, Friday, 10 August 2012 16:42 (9 months ago) Permalink
I find what Lamp just posted pretty convincing! (re: Jester). I have definitely seen high-ranked players praise him (on streams etc) but I'll think more about it.
thomp u live in london right? (i have asked you this like 8 times I think). Come along to dark sphere or something!
― Gravel Puzzleworth, Monday, 13 August 2012 12:57 (9 months ago) Permalink
this sets moonsilver spear is staff of nin! idk there are quite a few more outs to sands including one that just stone kills it so i dont think its quite as strong although its p good in sealed, yeah.
Anything that kills Spear will kill the Staff too, though I kind of see where you're coming from, Staff also has that feeling of "if this is out for a few turns, you're going to lose", though Sands and Spear were win conditions in themselves
And agreed on Battle Jester, I don't think he's a bad 23rd card in a quick red deck, especially as it allows you to do stuff like turn 5 a Trumpet Blast/Searing Spear massive blowout. I just am not sure if this is the set for this, with so many good defensive creatures/big boppers (in green) a "cannot block" effect needs to be more repeatable than this, again, really wish this thing cost 3 or at least triggered when entering play
― frogbs, Monday, 13 August 2012 13:15 (9 months ago) Permalink
I have definitely seen high-ranked players praise him (on streams etc)
yeah i heard sam black claim battle jester was 'really good' but then i have yet to see him actually play w/it in his deck. i might be underrating it because of how much worse it is than fervent cathar in an aggro red deck. the aggro red decks are my fave deck to play online because i think people in general undervalue the cards and i end up getting like 10th pick chandra's fury and stuff so i'll try him out again, but he hasnt been that successful for me
Anything that kills Spear will kill the Staff too
haha i was mostly thinking of elixir
― Lamp, Monday, 13 August 2012 14:02 (9 months ago) Permalink
oh, I didn't even know Elixir was in the set
Chandra's Fury was a card I always wondered about; I liked Aggravate in AVR but soon realized it's really not so good, is Fury a slam dunk maindeckable card?
― frogbs, Monday, 13 August 2012 14:06 (9 months ago) Permalink
the biggest reason its good is because its instant speed so you can use it on offense or defense and it's really good against other red decks and black and white but even against blue and green decks i've found its easy to maneuver myself into a situation where i can trade up by blocking w/cheap creatures like arsonist and krenko tokens. it can clear the way for reckless brute and/or dragon whelp or at least force much more desirable trades. and getting the four direct damage just means i'm never really down a card even if the primary use is as a combat trick/removal and goes a long way in allowing me to stay ahead in a race
― Lamp, Monday, 13 August 2012 14:22 (9 months ago) Permalink
Gotcha; I always played it in the M13 events I did but I can also see why, in a draft, it wouldn't be a card people are actively looking to play. I've always been confused on Lava Axe-type effects in general, I realize now they really aren't so good, but the fact that Fury is never really wasted since it still lops off 20% of their life total seems important.
Either way I don't know, I'm still stuck with AVR on MTGO because the mythics you can crack are enough to sustain you for a while. 4-pack Sealed w/ AVR is pretty high variance but I have not had to deposit in a long while and I think over like 20 or so of the things I've wound up ahead 10 or so tix thanks to Bonfire being worth so damn much. It doesn't sound like M13 really has any high dollar cards on MTGO right now.
― frogbs, Monday, 13 August 2012 14:35 (9 months ago) Permalink
card prices are always rock bottom around the end of the release period (ie now)
also holy shit @ bonfire's price. kind of wish i hadn't cashed mine in at $30 per already
― ciderpress, Monday, 13 August 2012 17:03 (9 months ago) Permalink
Mtgo price is $42.59, above SCG's $39.99 price for the paper version...I've never heard of a card that was worth more online than IRL! (though maybe Force of Will is one)
― frogbs, Monday, 13 August 2012 17:28 (9 months ago) Permalink
there are lots actually! in standard it only really happens with mythic rares because of how set redemption affects their supply disproportionately to regular rares. Falkenrath Aristocrat is another example of this (plus its value gets bumped up by Block Constructed, a format that isn't played much IRL). and then there are the legacy staples that never had a 'real' print run online and thus have very limited supply, like Force of Will and Lions Eye Diamond.
― ciderpress, Monday, 13 August 2012 17:36 (9 months ago) Permalink
I see the set redemption pushing foil mythics to ridiculous values. I think $10 is the base price for a foil mythic, compared to, say, 40 cents for your typical foil rare. Never really thought about the Block thing but that makes sense.
either way, is there a way to calculate the average value of a pack on MTGO? (okay, I know there is a way, but has anyone done it?)
― frogbs, Monday, 13 August 2012 17:43 (9 months ago) Permalink
people have certainly done it, it comes out to far less than the $4 retail value of course. i think it's under $2 and maybe even under $1 for some sets
― ciderpress, Monday, 13 August 2012 17:51 (9 months ago) Permalink
last i saw avr was about $3.10 for mtgo which is by far higher than any other currently drafted set
― Lamp, Monday, 13 August 2012 17:54 (9 months ago) Permalink
i honestly don't care about nickel-and-diming my way into value from card transactions though - i'm constantly buying/selling in and out of various standard and modern decks and taking the 10% loss or so every time and it doesn't really bother me since i'm playing purely for fun and practice, and not for sustainability
like, if playing 'for free' is your goal then you're best off just fronting $200 on a top tier standard deck and jamming daily events with it until you're loaded with packs, but who wants to actually do that every day? i guess some people do since i see the same names in those tournaments day in day out, but i feel like if you have that mentality you should just be playing poker
― ciderpress, Monday, 13 August 2012 18:01 (9 months ago) Permalink
for me it's all about limited, which IMO is fun enough to even cancel out the grindy mentality of it. also poker is not really an option in America anymore :S
― frogbs, Monday, 13 August 2012 18:07 (9 months ago) Permalink
i weirdly care about value but not enough not to do stupid stuff like buying 4x desolate lighthouse and promo silverblade paladins and stuff. its more that i like knowing what the cost of the stupid stuff i do is? i mean im happy that i havent had to deposit money on modo since early may and one of my goals is definitely being able to make drafting self-sustaining but ill also 'waste' money on stuff like 12-6s for fun or buying foil lands or w/e
the only constructed deck i have on modo is a block jund deck that would probably win me more packs than drafting does but i like the challenge of drafting a lot more plus block has been p stale since avr came out.
― Lamp, Monday, 13 August 2012 18:10 (9 months ago) Permalink
i think the best value on modo might be like building a u/g infect deck for $35 and grinding two-mans/dailies which, yeah, that seems p dull
― Lamp, Monday, 13 August 2012 18:12 (9 months ago) Permalink
u guys are making me want to start playing mtgo
― Mordy, Monday, 13 August 2012 20:07 (9 months ago) Permalink
do we have enough people for an ilxor clan on mtgo
― ciderpress, Monday, 13 August 2012 22:39 (9 months ago) Permalink
What do clans even do, they seem like a yoga flame pointless invention for the ages.
― Gravel Puzzleworth, Tuesday, 14 August 2012 14:19 (9 months ago) Permalink
Help request: a friend is learning the game, he likes it when I give him stack-based rules questions (e.g. "How does Kiki-Jiki interact with Phyrexian Dreadnought"). Can anyone think of any more puzzles like this? I'm looking interesting stack-based interactions, not layer-based ones (so no Opalescence-on-Humility stuff).
― Gravel Puzzleworth, Tuesday, 14 August 2012 14:21 (9 months ago) Permalink
Okay - both players have four of these puppies on the board:
One of them tries to tap one for mana and the other player tries to stop him, who gets what?
(alright, maybe it's not that hardest rules question I can think of, but it may be the most obnoxious)
― frogbs, Tuesday, 14 August 2012 14:27 (9 months ago) Permalink
neither player gets anything.
first player taps for 1, second player taps for 1 to block it. (end of first round = no net gain for anyone.)
first player taps to block second player's response, but second player taps to block that, too. (end of second round = no net gain for anyone.)
etc...(every round ends in stalemate with no gain, so long as both players have the same number of caves.)
if the first player had four and the second only three, then s/he'd be able to break the chain and get 1 manna.
― contenderizer, Tuesday, 14 August 2012 14:37 (9 months ago) Permalink
yeah. it's not hard if you don't think of it as 8 triggers going on the stack at once. its just an obnoxious question.
if you really want to give your buddy a fun puzzle to talk about, how about telling him how you can stack Fiend Hunter and Cloudshift to permanently exile something (I have a deck that does this and I hate having to explain this to newer players...I feel like they think I am making up rules)
― frogbs, Tuesday, 14 August 2012 14:42 (9 months ago) Permalink
maybeeeeeWhat do clans even do, they seem like a yoga flame pointless invention for the ages.― Gravel Puzzleworth, Tuesday, August 14, 2012 10:19 AM (35 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― Gravel Puzzleworth, Tuesday, August 14, 2012 10:19 AM (35 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― ciderpress, Tuesday, 14 August 2012 15:00 (9 months ago) Permalink
xp using Redirect (or any similar redirection spell) to counter a counterspell is an interesting one - because of the wording of Redirect you don't need to choose the new target for the spell until Redirect resolves, but Redirect is still on the stack when it resolves so you can change the counterspell to target Redirect even though Redirect is in the process of resolving already and thus can't be countered anymore (the net effect being that their counterspell is countered due to illegal targets)
― ciderpress, Tuesday, 14 August 2012 15:20 (9 months ago) Permalink
I remember seeing people use Misdirection as a counterspell to counter other counterspells and always thought they were Misdirecting the Counterspells to counter itself because the alternative didn't make sense. I've had this conversation many times.."wait, if the Misdirection is countered, then how did the.....whatever"
Another weird one is Caged Sun which has the "if a land would add a mana to your mana pool, add an additional mana" wording, which means that if you can somehow turn Caged Sun into a land and tapped it, it would literally add infinity mana to your mana pool.
― frogbs, Tuesday, 14 August 2012 15:28 (9 months ago) Permalink
wouldn't that create an infinite loop and draw the game though? it's not a 'may' ability and doesn't use the stack, so you can never stop it.
― ciderpress, Tuesday, 14 August 2012 15:38 (9 months ago) Permalink
I think the solution is to try to set this up on Magic Online and see what happens. Perhaps it could crash MTGO's servers.
― frogbs, Tuesday, 14 August 2012 15:42 (9 months ago) Permalink
i've seen the triple oblivion ring loop happen on mtgo and it's pretty hilarious - if both players F6, then after about 100 iterations, the game crashes, and then it attempts to reconstruct the game by playing it out again from the start, reaches the loop again, crashes again, then declares a draw
― ciderpress, Tuesday, 14 August 2012 15:44 (9 months ago) Permalink
another one i can think of is if you somehow make a token copy of Garruk Relentless, then get it to 1 or 2 loyalty, its triggered ability will just happen infinitely because it can't transform
― ciderpress, Tuesday, 14 August 2012 15:48 (9 months ago) Permalink
i'm not actually sure whether there's any sequence of plays that can make a token Garruk though
― ciderpress, Tuesday, 14 August 2012 15:51 (9 months ago) Permalink
yeah im trying to think of noncreature token permanents and cant think of any
― Lamp, Tuesday, 14 August 2012 15:56 (9 months ago) Permalink
well the issue is more how to copy it without the original garruk being on the battlefield, because they'd die from the planeswalker uniqueness rule. if not for that you could just liquimetal coating + phyrexian metamorph it
― ciderpress, Tuesday, 14 August 2012 15:58 (9 months ago) Permalink
the most insane MTG puzzle i've figured out without help was the turn 1 kill on the play in Scars of Mirrodin Block Constructed
― ciderpress, Tuesday, 14 August 2012 16:00 (9 months ago) Permalink
Let's see - you'd have to use Liquimetal Coating to make it an artifact, March of the Machines to make it a creature, then Cackling Counterpart to make a token.
Caged Sun is even weirder, you have to do March, then play Life and Limb and make the Caged Sun into a Saporling/Forest with Xenograft or Unnatural Selection
― frogbs, Tuesday, 14 August 2012 16:01 (9 months ago) Permalink
none of those cards remove the planeswalker type or Garruk subtype though so it doesn't work
― ciderpress, Tuesday, 14 August 2012 16:03 (9 months ago) Permalink
okay in that case I don't think it's possible to do this unless there's some weird old card that can remove a subtype
― frogbs, Tuesday, 14 August 2012 16:06 (9 months ago) Permalink
planeswalkers hate this one weird old card
― Mordy, Tuesday, 14 August 2012 16:15 (9 months ago) Permalink
ok i think you can do it with Mirrorworks, if you do liquimetal + metamorph with Mirrorworks in play then the Mirrorworks token will use last-known values for the Metamorph and make a Garruk artifact
― ciderpress, Tuesday, 14 August 2012 16:36 (9 months ago) Permalink
and that artifact wouldn't have the subtypes? wouldn't it make a "planeswalker artifact" or am I misreading section 403 a) i. iii. iv. ?
― frogbs, Tuesday, 14 August 2012 16:47 (9 months ago) Permalink
no, the metamorph would copy garruk, trigger, mirrorworks, then garruk and metamorphed garruk would die, allowing the mirrorworks token garruk to be the only garruk when it comes into play
― ciderpress, Tuesday, 14 August 2012 16:50 (9 months ago) Permalink
Okay. I may be confused as to how that rule works. I thought that the Planeswalker rule didn't use the stack; as in, you couldn't respond to it, similar to being at 0 life and losing. Either way, I'd like to see how MTGO handles it; I can't imagine what their background coding looks like at this point. It's insane how complex MTG's rules are when you really break them down.
― frogbs, Tuesday, 14 August 2012 19:23 (9 months ago) Permalink
― Gravel Puzzleworth, Monday, 13 August 2012 12:57 (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
nah i'm in oxford innit. i might end up going to london to fulfil these nerd inclinations i'm getting though. don't shit where you eat and all that.
― thomp, Tuesday, 14 August 2012 21:03 (9 months ago) Permalink
otoh the last fifty posts i keep trying to read and it's like a blast of white noise overruling any attempt to make sense of it so:
― thomp, Tuesday, 14 August 2012 21:04 (9 months ago) Permalink
Yeah, this conversation makes me think I'm not really ready to take on local competition
― Moodles, Tuesday, 14 August 2012 23:02 (9 months ago) Permalink
don't worry we're discussing weird rules corner cases that will never turn up in an actual game
Okay. I may be confused as to how that rule works. I thought that the Planeswalker rule didn't use the stack; as in, you couldn't respond to it, similar to being at 0 life and losing. Either way, I'd like to see how MTGO handles it; I can't imagine what their background coding looks like at this point. It's insane how complex MTG's rules are when you really break them down.― frogbs, Tuesday, August 14, 2012 3:23 PM (5 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― frogbs, Tuesday, August 14, 2012 3:23 PM (5 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― ciderpress, Wednesday, 15 August 2012 01:13 (9 months ago) Permalink
― frogbs, Wednesday, 15 August 2012 01:21 (9 months ago) Permalink
Thinking of trying out mtgo. May be a less intimidating option than going straight to irl competition.
― Moodles, Friday, 17 August 2012 00:39 (9 months ago) Permalink
OK, got my account started up, now trying to figure out what to do next to establish some decent cards. Should I sell off my booster and use the cash to buy up some commons and uncommons instead?
― Moodles, Saturday, 18 August 2012 01:41 (9 months ago) Permalink
― buzza, Saturday, 18 August 2012 03:02 (9 months ago) Permalink
depends if you wanna play constructed or limited
i do believe new accounts get to do some "phantom" drafts...as in you can play and i think win prizes but you don't get to keep what you draft
― frogbs, Saturday, 18 August 2012 03:57 (9 months ago) Permalink
I guess I'd like to figure out the best way to start accruing some passable card so I don't just get killed constantly
― Moodles, Saturday, 18 August 2012 04:13 (9 months ago) Permalink
The quickest way: Look at the decks that are winning daily events, and then buy all of the cards you need to make one of those (this will be costly unless you concentrate on relatively inexpensive formats, like block or pauper. Even then you should be prepared to pay a fair amount)
The cheapest way: Take note of the most expensive cards in a given format, and then try to make a deck using none of those cards. The Magic economy is usually set up such that the ten or so chase rares are worth heaps, but then everything else is five cents or less. Obviously the expensive cards are the most powerful, but you can still have fun trying out tier two options, especially if you stick to casual (i.e. non-tournament event) games. If you go this route you might want to lean heavily on the cards in M13; almost everything in that set is pretty cheap at the moment.
The most fun way: Start playing limited (sealed or draft) events, and build decks with the cards you get.
― webber, Monday, 20 August 2012 04:18 (8 months ago) Permalink
Oh, also there are some bots on MTGO that give away free commons, and if you know anyone on MTGO they will probably be willing to give you a bunch of commons/uncommons, since having more than four copies of a single card is pointless and selling them to bots generally nets you a small fraction of a cent.
― webber, Monday, 20 August 2012 04:22 (8 months ago) Permalink
i've got shitloads of innistrad commons/uncommons if you need any of those, since i did dozens of triple innistrad drafts last fall. might have some excess stock of core set cards and other recent sets too.
my MTGO username is smh
― ciderpress, Monday, 20 August 2012 04:31 (8 months ago) Permalink
I really wish that you could trade away more than 75 cards at once. My client freezes sometimes when I even try to do that many.
― frogbs, Monday, 20 August 2012 13:39 (8 months ago) Permalink
Thanks! I'll look you up.
Is it ever worthwhile to buy cards from bots or does it make more sense to just try to win them in competition.
How much does a deck have to rely on super expensive mythics in order to win in Constructed online? Or is it viable to pull something together on a budget and still compete?
― Moodles, Monday, 20 August 2012 20:05 (8 months ago) Permalink
what format are you looking at playing? there are a couple cheap Standard decks, BW tokens and mono-green infect come to mind. those still need some rares to function properly but not as many as other decks. Tokens is probably the most scalable in terms of being playable without all the rares, while infect absolutely needs the 4 Inkmoth Nexus (~7 tickets each) but the rest of the deck is cheap
― ciderpress, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 00:38 (8 months ago) Permalink
though on second thought i don't think i'd recommend buying into infect decks right now since those cards are all rotating out of standard in a couple months
― ciderpress, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 00:50 (8 months ago) Permalink
Mostly interested in standard or innistrad block. Working on building a bw exalted deck.
― Moodles, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 00:53 (8 months ago) Permalink
It also depends how competitive you intend on being. If you want to enter daily events or 2-man queues (i.e. put up some entry money and play for prizes), then you are probably going to have to cough up some money - giving up a significant number of percentage points of winning in order to save a few bucks just doesn't really make sense from an EV standpoint. However, if you just want to play casually, there are always people who either also can't afford to spend a billion dollars on mythics or who just prefer to play strategies off the beaten path, and there's no reason why you can't have a tonne of fun playing a deck you built around a junky rare in the casual room.
If you're just looking to acquire cards, buying individual cards from bots is always better than cracking packs - the expected value of cards in a pack is significantly lower than what a pack actually costs. The only reason to acquire packs is to play limited, wherein you have a bunch of fun and end up with cards at the end of it.
― webber, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 05:34 (8 months ago) Permalink
Also, even if you're buying packs I would suggest buying packs from bots - they typically sell packs at a discount to the MTGO store (I think a pack of M13 is around 3.3-3.5 tix as opposed to $4), since heaps of people are continually selling all their prize packs to bots in order to cash out.
― webber, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 05:37 (8 months ago) Permalink
Thanks for the tips, and thanks to ciderpress for the cards!
The deck is starting to take shape now. My plan is to use some of the affordable legendaries like nefarox and odric rather than raiding my son's college fund to buy sublime archangel, avacyn, and a couple silver blade paladins.
― Moodles, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 05:56 (8 months ago) Permalink
keep in mind odric has anti-synergy with exalted since he wants you to attack with everything (though his ability is much more powerful than exalted in constructed)
― ciderpress, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 13:18 (8 months ago) Permalink
like the best way to compete in constructed on a budget is generally to play a bunch of cheap efficient creatures, keep smashing them with everything, and hope they don't have a wrath of god effect or large blocker in time
― ciderpress, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 13:29 (8 months ago) Permalink
I hear what you're saying. I suppose the strategy I'm shooting for is more of a hybrid exalted/soldiers. The idea is to score a bunch of early damage with small exalted creatures and then flood the board with soldiers and cards like crusader of odric. This gives the option of hitting with a whole bunch of creatures at once or with a single powerful creature like crusader who gets amped up by both soldiers and exalted. With Odric, Master Tactician in the mix I can force some mismatched combat or just keep the other player from blocking.
It may turn out that this is not focused enough to actually work, but I'm going to try it out and see what happens.
― Moodles, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 14:17 (8 months ago) Permalink
i have a list on my home computer for a neat soldier tokens deck that would be pretty cheap to build and reasonably competitive. i think the most expensive card in it is elspeth
but: from a strict value perspective you should wait the six weeks for standard to rotate before investing money in cards. until then you should be playing 4 pack AVR sealed probably since it's both good value and AVR packs have the highest expected value. it's also a pretty good way to ease into magic although i cant remember how xp'd you are...
also if its at all a possibility and you plan on playing competitively than its better value to invest the money upfront in a tier 1 deck than to try to grind out wins with a cheap but unreliable tier 2 or 3 deck.
― Lamp, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 15:45 (8 months ago) Permalink
i dunno, i'd recommend just messing around and playing in the free play/practice rooms for a while before jumping into sealed events. i spent my first month or so of MTGO just having fun playing cheapo Grand Architect decks in the casual room
― ciderpress, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 15:48 (8 months ago) Permalink
haha yeah thats fair - really my advice is only worthwhile if moodles wants to play competitively i guess?
― Lamp, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 15:51 (8 months ago) Permalink
the idea of just buying all the cards for a tier 1 deck and grinding it out seems so soul destroying
― frogbs, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 16:23 (8 months ago) Permalink
I'm really at the just having fun stage right now, though I'll probably try out a booster draft sooner or later just to get an idea of what to expect
― Moodles, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 17:33 (8 months ago) Permalink
i think new accounts now come with a couple free entries into special "new player drafts", they're phantom drafts meaning you don't get to keep the cards you drafted, but you can still win prize packs i think
― ciderpress, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 17:36 (8 months ago) Permalink
One thing to be wary of is that MTGO obviously adheres very close to the rules, so be sure to read that little status bar on the left closely. For example most players who play Bone Splinters (Sac a creature: Destroy target creature) would sac their creature first, then target their opponent's creature - on MTGO, you target your opponent's guy first, then sac as a cost. If you don't read the status bar you'll end up sacrificing your own creature to destroy itself (I would see this happen ALL THE TIME).
Also, when effects are stacked, you can mouse over the card effect on the left to see exactly what it's targeting, if need be. For example if you have a creature that comes into play with a token and soulbond triggers, mousing over can let you see exactly which creature it's referring to. Again, very easy to miss this if you don't really know the interface.
― frogbs, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 17:55 (8 months ago) Permalink
I had a situation where one my guys was taken out by Oblivion Ring. I cast a spell to destroy Oblivion Ring, but apparently cast it at the wrong time as my guy didn't return to the battlefield. Not sure what happened there.
― Moodles, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 18:00 (8 months ago) Permalink
make sure you let the Oblivion Ring actually eat your guy before you destroy it, otherwise the trigger that returns your guy will happen before the one that exiles your guy, causing your guy to go away forever
― ciderpress, Tuesday, 21 August 2012 18:24 (8 months ago) Permalink
LSV plays a few games with a fun Delver/Talrand hybrid that doesn't look too expensive here: http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/channel-lsv-wizards-standard-event/
― webber, Wednesday, 22 August 2012 01:20 (8 months ago) Permalink
that's still a reasonable amount of $ though - don't forget that Gut Shots are like $5 each despite not being rare (so absurd!). plus Inkmoth is up to 7 or 8 due to the infect deck's popularity, and Snapcaster is 7 or 8 too and irreplaceable.
i think BW tokens is the best deck for making a budget version that still does inherently powerful things. you could probably build it with no rares except Honor of the Pure and still beat people up with reasonable draws
― ciderpress, Wednesday, 22 August 2012 13:22 (8 months ago) Permalink
the MTGO economy is weird like that because packs are pretty much exclusively used for drafting, nobody buys a box at a discount or opens up packs for fun because doing so is such a waste. thus "3rd sets" like New Phyrexia don't get opened up much since you only get one per draft and then 4 months later Innistrad comes along, and now Gut Shot, which is like a $1 card IRL is somehow worth upwards of 5 tix
AVR packs just hit critical mass, 3.99 a pop exclusively thanks to Bonfire's ridiculous pricing. meanwhile M13 singles are pretty much worthless so who knows what to draft now.
― frogbs, Wednesday, 22 August 2012 13:31 (8 months ago) Permalink
the answer is to draft M13 because it's a better limited format than AVR
i didn't hate AVR as much as most people, i think it was fine for a 2-3 month limited format, but i have no desire to go back to it now that there's something new, card values be damned
― ciderpress, Wednesday, 22 August 2012 13:34 (8 months ago) Permalink
at 3.50 a pack I can "go infinite" with AVR (but not really turn a profit), M13 will be really tough because there's only one card you can sell for over 10. prices will probably go up but they crashed pretty hard over the last two weeks.
I'm holding out for RTR - quite frankly it'll be shocking if that doesn't turn out to be an excellent Limited format
― frogbs, Wednesday, 22 August 2012 13:37 (8 months ago) Permalink
here is some art from RTR:
if that ain't Temple Garden I'll stick my dick in a mashed potato
― frogbs, Wednesday, 22 August 2012 13:51 (8 months ago) Permalink
funny, i said the exact same thing to someone else last night when that went up
― ciderpress, Wednesday, 22 August 2012 14:16 (8 months ago) Permalink
I hope they've learned from Alara block, which didn't have quite enough color fixing at common to play 3 color decks. the bouncelands and signets from original Ravnica were too good because they were card advantage and acceleration respectively, but it would be nice to have some sort of equivalents this time around
― ciderpress, Wednesday, 22 August 2012 14:20 (8 months ago) Permalink
the exact same thing? whoa
I'm sure there will be some color fixing at common. I think they know that Limited isn't really fun for either player if one guy is sitting with five spells they can't cast because they don't have Red mana; if this set is like a quarter gold cards, that's only gonna be a bigger problem
― frogbs, Wednesday, 22 August 2012 14:46 (8 months ago) Permalink
Have Wizards actually even printed a card in which the life-cost penalty was actually sufficiently punitive?
Like (of the top of my head):Phyrexian ArenaRavnica LandsIce-Age Pain LandsCity of BrassDark ConfidanteOff-color Dismember/Gutshot/etcGriselbrandNecropotenceChannel
All super playable and often strong to the point of broken-ness.
― Gravel Puzzleworth, Thursday, 23 August 2012 11:30 (8 months ago) Permalink
You forgot Bitterblossom! What do you mean by sufficiently punitive? Like unplayable? I feel like shocklands, fetchlands, and the phyrexian mana permanents (for example) are all pretty balanced. The fact that the shocklands are almost certainly going to be reprinted implies that R&D doesn't think they're too broken. Plus there are a bunch of cards that are only limited playable, like Sign in Blood/Phyrexian Rager.
― webber, Thursday, 23 August 2012 11:48 (8 months ago) Permalink
sign in blood and phyrexian rager have both been in constructed decks (rager mostly the first time around when it was in apocalypse)
zombie cutthroat is a good example of a limited one, that was an easy first pick in onslaught block draft despite taking a huge chunk out of your life
― ciderpress, Thursday, 23 August 2012 12:08 (8 months ago) Permalink
Oops, yeah, that's a big one!
I guess by 'sufficiently punitive' I meant: "Has a meaningful impact on your decision to maindeck the card". I mean, sure, fetchlands aren't *broken* in the 'lol u printed Skullclamp' sense, but I've never heard any player over 12 years old ever say "hmm, that's a whole life point! I think I'll run this island instead". With Sign In Blood by contrast you could totally remove the lifecost, and it'd still be, like, Divination.
― Gravel Puzzleworth, Thursday, 23 August 2012 12:22 (8 months ago) Permalink
Zombie Cutthroat is a great example of what I'm looking for - if it were [(3),1 life] for a 3/4 zombie that's definitely meaningfully different to [(3),5 life] for the same thing.
― Gravel Puzzleworth, Thursday, 23 August 2012 12:25 (8 months ago) Permalink
well sometimes they add up. I've seen a game of Modern where a guy cracked a fetch to get a shockland untapped three turns in a row, essentially starting him at 11 life. But that's a good point and a good reminder of how little life really matters anymore, unless you're playing against mono-red, I guess. Don't forget Force of Will!!
― frogbs, Thursday, 23 August 2012 13:27 (8 months ago) Permalink
i remember when Modern first came out online, i watched a game where someone went turn 1 fetch shockland, thoughtseize, turn 2 fetch shockland, dark confidant. they're at 14 life on turn 2 with a bob in play, were playing against an aggro deck, and they ended up winning anyway. i guess that was more the power of Dark Confidant than irrelevancy of life loss, but all those incremental life payments do add up sometimes.
i play splinter twin in Modern, and i have won games at 1 or 2 life before because i played my Steam Vents tapped on turn 1 rather than firing off a Serum Visions right away. managing your life total is still important!
― ciderpress, Thursday, 23 August 2012 13:40 (8 months ago) Permalink
err that was actually 12 life on turn 2, not 14
― ciderpress, Thursday, 23 August 2012 13:41 (8 months ago) Permalink
Ok, I got one, Moonlight Bargain:
Moonlight Bargain 3BBInstant
Look at the top five cards of your library. For each card, put that card into your graveyard unless you pay 2 life. Then put the rest into your hand.
I always wondered why Sligh wasn't more popular in Modern; decks running Thoughtseize and Bob must be dealing themselves 6-7+ damage a game
― frogbs, Thursday, 23 August 2012 13:51 (8 months ago) Permalink
moonlight bargain seems playable to me, i assume it didn't get played much because it was in the same format as Dark Confidant and Compulsive Research which are both more mana-efficient ways to draw cards
if you're talking about straight-up burn, that's pretty popular on MTGO (mainly because it's cheap). Jund is the only popular Dark Confidant deck though and it runs Kitchen Finks too. Thoughtseize isn't actually bad against burn, since it just prevents 1 damage which is better than not being able to interact at all
― ciderpress, Thursday, 23 August 2012 14:07 (8 months ago) Permalink
and sometimes you hit their goblin guide and prevent more than 1 damage
― ciderpress, Thursday, 23 August 2012 14:08 (8 months ago) Permalink
i'm surprised it's an instant. still if it was 3BB: Draw 5, it would have gotten a lot of play, but the life requirement may be a bit much there.
don't get me wrong I don't know anything about Modern, it's crazy that Jund finds a way to play Finks, that's got to be a crazy manabase
― frogbs, Thursday, 23 August 2012 14:11 (8 months ago) Permalink
1GG is not that crazy to get in a deck with fetches/duals! i'm confused what you mean
i often forget that finks is also a white card, since i haven't seen it played as such in about a year
― ciderpress, Thursday, 23 August 2012 14:14 (8 months ago) Permalink
also the problem with burn decks in modern is they can't interact in a format where most decks have either a combo kill or Geist of Saint Traft
― ciderpress, Thursday, 23 August 2012 14:18 (8 months ago) Permalink
I can see that. but I'd think a card like Blightning would be really good. to be honest I don't know what post-Onslaught Goblins even looks like. anyway, what I mean about Jund is that 1GG is kind of a crazy mana cost for a 3-color deck that isn't even heavy green, isn't it?
― frogbs, Thursday, 23 August 2012 14:28 (8 months ago) Permalink
jund plays treetop village, tarmogoyf, and bloodbraid elf, it's pretty heavy on green. and even if it wasn't, fetches/duals and twilight mire would get you there anyway. casting double color spells is just not an issue in eternal formats.
i was playing a dredge deck for a bit that had birds of paradise, hedron crab, faithless looting, and gravecrawler as its turn 1 plays, and boarded into 4 thalias against spell-based decks. the manabase worked out fine.
― ciderpress, Thursday, 23 August 2012 15:16 (8 months ago) Permalink
hmmph. something just seems wrong about that. on the other hand I guess I see why the fetches and shocklands are so high now.
call me old school but I just don't think playing a 3-color deck should be so easy
― frogbs, Thursday, 23 August 2012 15:22 (8 months ago) Permalink
goblins doesn't exist in modern, the good ones are all in onslaught. blightning is not a very good card because there are few of the slower attrition decks it's good against (pretty much just jund and U/W midrange), while there are decks like affinity that can have no cards left in hand by turn 3
― ciderpress, Thursday, 23 August 2012 15:25 (8 months ago) Permalink
i guess you missed out on lorwyn/shadowmoor/alara standard, when people were playing cloudthresher and path to exile in their cruel ultimatum decks.
i missed out on that too but it seems absurd in retrospect now that we have more typical mana in standard again
― ciderpress, Thursday, 23 August 2012 15:31 (8 months ago) Permalink
Yeah I kind of skipped the Cruel control era. Either way I think the mana-fixing in Standard has been really good for a long time and I kind of miss the days when people were at least somewhat encouraged to build mono-color decks. Nowadays I guess there's Stompy every once in a while and there's always a tier-4 Sligh deck but I miss the days when 3-color decks were not easy to pull off without some trickery.
― frogbs, Thursday, 23 August 2012 15:39 (8 months ago) Permalink
mana fixing is tight enough that you are definitely paying a cost to run 3-colours in standard rn tho
― Lamp, Thursday, 23 August 2012 15:45 (8 months ago) Permalink
Well the two dual types in Standard right now don't really play nice with each other but in general I don't find 3-color decks tough so long as you don't play a bunch of double-costed cards. Or at least, not as hard as I remember it being.
― frogbs, Thursday, 23 August 2012 15:56 (8 months ago) Permalink
mana fixing is a double edged sword kinda. if the power level of cards in standard is low and/or balanced across the spectrum, then the best decks are more heavily defined by which ones have good mana (we see this in block constructed a lot, it's why Borderland Ranger is a 4-of in almost every ISD block deck). if you improve the mana in this sort of environment, you can produce a pretty radically diverse metagame. this is what happened with the first Ravnica block, and led to the era that people have dubbed the 'tier 2 metagame' because there were dozens of viable Standard decks and none of them were really powerful enough to beat up on random homebrew decks.
the flipside is that if there are a few overpowered cards in Standard and the mana is good, the format warps around those cards, because there's nothing keeping you from dropping them into your off-color deck and then tweaking the manabase to fit.
― ciderpress, Thursday, 23 August 2012 17:18 (8 months ago) Permalink
in general i think having 2 sets of duals per color pair is the sweet spot - we're a bit shy of that now but looks like we'll be heading there or beyond with a new Ravnica set
― ciderpress, Thursday, 23 August 2012 17:26 (8 months ago) Permalink
Well Ravnica was before the era of Mythics. I remember Baneslayer Angel being the start of something newer and shittier, where the metagame wasn't so much tier 1 decks as it was tier 1 cards, and who could fit the most into their manabase. I haven't played Standard in a while but from what I remember there were a ton of archetypes, but in reality it was just a dozen ways different ways to lose to Wurmcoil. Nowadays I'd guess there are a bunch of decks with tortured mana bases that just want to get their Huntsmasters and Bonfires in as both cards are way over the curve. I remember feeling like Baneslayer was so stupidly overpowered that EVERY white deck should be packing them, no matter what (at least, before Dismember was printed). Jace 2.0 was the same way. And soon that kind of spilled over into, "if I've got a two color deck, can I make it three so I can play Jace?"
― frogbs, Thursday, 23 August 2012 17:47 (8 months ago) Permalink
baneslayer, huntmaster, and wurmcoil are all strong cards, but i wouldn't call any of them format-warping - i would call jace and bonfire that though...
― ciderpress, Thursday, 23 August 2012 18:03 (8 months ago) Permalink
Well the Baneslayer/Titan/Wurmcoil era really brought about an era where they were SO far ahead of any other 5-7 drop that you could hardly play anything else in those slots, even if they had abilities that fit your deck perfectly. I had a deck set up to abuse Flayer of the Hatebound in several ways, then found out that just straight up swapping them for Inferno Titans made my deck better, even though the synergy wasn't there anymore.
Anyway to make this fit my argument a little better I don't think Titans/Wurmcoil are the problem when it comes to excess mana fixing as any deck can play those. They are problematic, but for different reasons. But low-cost mythics like Lotus Cobra, Geist, Bonfire (sort of), and Jace do encourage a lot of dumb off-color splashing. I remember the Zendikar era being the same thing, "just play fetches and Lotus Cobra and your deck will rule"
― frogbs, Thursday, 23 August 2012 18:13 (8 months ago) Permalink
i dont think bonfire is warping standard its not like every (any?)one is playing u/r delver
― Lamp, Thursday, 23 August 2012 18:44 (8 months ago) Permalink
assuming steam vents is in RTR, i actually think that's the direction delver is headed after rotation - with most of the cheap blue spells gone i think there'll be an aggro version that goes UR for burn, and a more midrange one that's more about abusing snapcaster and restoration angel than flipping delvers
― ciderpress, Thursday, 23 August 2012 19:04 (8 months ago) Permalink
of course this is all wild conjecture until we know whats in the new set
the main thing bonfire has done so far is add a hilarious amount of variance to green midrange mirror matches
― ciderpress, Thursday, 23 August 2012 19:09 (8 months ago) Permalink
yeah I dunno if we really can speculate on what's going to happen post-RTR. losing Ponder, Vapor Snag, GutShot, and Mana Leak seems like it would totally nerf Delver anyway.
― frogbs, Thursday, 23 August 2012 19:31 (8 months ago) Permalink
Is it naive of me to feel annoyed that all the top decks in standard are variations on the same 2 or 3 themes ad infinitum?
Is it a lack of imagination or are those just the only decks that can possibly win?
― Moodles, Friday, 24 August 2012 18:53 (8 months ago) Permalink
again a lot of this is because they've made a conscious decision that the mythics should be the most powerful cards in the game
― frogbs, Friday, 24 August 2012 19:14 (8 months ago) Permalink
ime almost every rpg system when min/maxed comes down to 4-5 at most archetypes (i'm thinking particularly stuff like MMORPGs with tank/dps/heal archetypes, or magic/range/melee in diablolikes). when i played in 4th grade tho there were a million archetypes bc we weren't exactly scholars of the game and we played w/ whatever cards we had available.
― Mordy, Saturday, 25 August 2012 00:13 (8 months ago) Permalink
yeah keep in mind we are at the tail end of the standard season, by this point everything's pretty much been figured out. though to be fair there are probably 15-20 reasonable deck choices, it's just that a lot of them fit under a few umbrella archetypes (green midrange, blue tempo/midrange, green ramp, black zombies)
― ciderpress, Saturday, 25 August 2012 03:23 (8 months ago) Permalink
I made some tweaks to my exalted soldiers deck and was able to win about half the time in casual. So long as I'm not getting crushed over and over by delver decks, I'm ok with that.
― Moodles, Saturday, 25 August 2012 05:46 (8 months ago) Permalink
yeah unfortunately a delver deck would be an exalted deck's nightmare matchup - delver handles single threats very well but has no way to deal with swarm tactics
― ciderpress, Saturday, 25 August 2012 05:56 (8 months ago) Permalink
right, I've added in more cheap removal in order to neutralize some of the earlier threats so that I can ramp up to the big token cards like Captain of the Watch, Captain's Call, and the Odrics. Also swapped out Servant of Nefarox for Diregraf Ghoul which works really nicely with Duty-Bound Dead. Basically gives me an attacking 3/3 on turn 2 and allows me to flood the board with more little guys earlier on.
The other new addition that's really paying off me is Riders of Gavony, which immediately neutralizes a whole class of creatures.
― Moodles, Saturday, 25 August 2012 13:41 (8 months ago) Permalink
Well Ravnica was before the era of Mythics. I remember Baneslayer Angel being the start of something newer and shittier, where the metagame wasn't so much tier 1 decks as it was tier 1 cards, and who could fit the most into their manabase.
The worst current example of this in the current Standard is the UW Delver deck that runs Geist of Saint Traft and Hero of Bladehold - those cards have zero synergy with anything else in your deck (beyond, like, "kinda aggro"), but they're so curve-exploding that it doesn't matter.
― Gravel Puzzleworth, Saturday, 25 August 2012 13:57 (8 months ago) Permalink
what, that's not true at all. geist has very good synergy with snapcaster + vapor snag. its weakness is that it gets blocked easily, and being able to tempo their guys off the board is the solution to that.
i honestly don't get the fist-shaking at mythic rares. standard costs about the same now as it always did, adjusted for inflation etc. before mythics, you'd just pay more for stuff like dual lands and utility rares that are now dirt cheap. stratifying card availability like this is a net positive for new players because it gives them access to more cards even if the top few cards in each set are less accessible
― ciderpress, Saturday, 25 August 2012 15:33 (8 months ago) Permalink
the idea of mythics (in the beginning) was that they were all gonna be splashy, powerful rares but not "4 of" type cards. so Baneslayer or the new Thundermaw are fine; it's when they started printing stuff like Lotus Cobra at Mythic that I started to feel like we were being exploited (to their credit Lotus Cobra seems like a one-time thing)
actually I don't mind the mythic rarity w/r/t what it does to the price of Standard, because as you point out it does keep regular rares like say, Restoration Angel in higher supply and does knock the price of stuff like duals down. my problem with it is when they take the mythic rarity as an opportunity to print stuff WAY over the curve that pretty much any deck in those colors has to consider playing. like I remember my jaw dropping when I saw Jace TMS, thinking "how could they do this?", and that was when I misread it at 5 mana!!
― frogbs, Saturday, 25 August 2012 16:01 (8 months ago) Permalink
i played a sealed draft M13 this weekend w/ some friends visiting - i got one of the white mythics (serra something) and a ton of white exalted creatures, ran those w/ green for some bigger beatdown creatures and very little removal and dominated which was really exciting. then we played some edh. every time they come in and we play, i want to start seriously playing MTG again but then i'm left in philly at the end of the weekend w/ no one to play with. :(
― Mordy, Sunday, 26 August 2012 01:48 (8 months ago) Permalink
^play Magic Online!
Here's what Mark Rosewater said when he introduced mythic rares:
This now leads us to the next question: How are cards split between rare and mythic rare? Or more to the point, what kind of cards are going to become mythic rares? We want the flavor of mythic rare to be something that feels very special and unique. Generally speaking we expect that to mean cards like Planeswalkers, most legends, and epic-feeling creatures and spells. They will not just be a list of each set's most powerful tournament-level cards.We've also decided that there are certain things we specifically do not want to be mythic rares. The largest category is utility cards, what I'll define as cards that fill a universal function. Some examples of this category would be cycles of dual lands and cards like Mutavault or Char. That also addresses a long-standing issue that some players have had with certain rares like dual lands. Because we're making fewer cards per set, in the new world individual rares will be easier to acquire because each rare in a large set now appears 25% more often.
We've also decided that there are certain things we specifically do not want to be mythic rares. The largest category is utility cards, what I'll define as cards that fill a universal function. Some examples of this category would be cycles of dual lands and cards like Mutavault or Char. That also addresses a long-standing issue that some players have had with certain rares like dual lands. Because we're making fewer cards per set, in the new world individual rares will be easier to acquire because each rare in a large set now appears 25% more often.
Personally I think "no cards that fill a universal function" is a little different from "no 4 of" cards. Geist of S-T and Hero of Bladehold are definitely 4-of cards, but I wouldn't say they fill a universal function; they're not in the same league as Mutavault or dual lands. Lotus Cobra is a bit more marginal, but as you say I think they recognise that as a mistake as they seem to have moved away from it in more recent sets.
― webber, Sunday, 26 August 2012 11:33 (8 months ago) Permalink
Right, but I think there's a certain threshold where a card becomes so powerful where virtually any deck that can support it in its manabase will become more powerful for doing so, and they've definitely been toeing that line lately (if not outright crossing it with cards like Jace or Tarmogoyf)
― frogbs, Sunday, 26 August 2012 18:28 (8 months ago) Permalink
tarmogoyf is not 'lately'
jace was a mistake, we know that. stoneforge mystic and snapcaster mage were too, though those weren't mythic rares. geist of saint traft and hero of bladehold are just strong cards; unlike all the overpowered creatures/planeswalkers, they don't play the defensive role and offensive role equally well, which limits their use and makes them fair
― ciderpress, Sunday, 26 August 2012 19:36 (8 months ago) Permalink
is this all about the online game? i keep seeing this thread high up but can't understand the discourse.
magic ruled my world as a young teen. i quit after a bit and sold my "fork" for 100 pounds, plus "made" (recouped) a decent amount on the rest (10 per cent of what i spent, probably.)
had a brief relapse around the time of mirages, hammer of bogarden and all that shit, then quit again for good.
― Know how Roo feel (LocalGarda), Sunday, 26 August 2012 19:41 (8 months ago) Permalink
hmm. forgot future sight was 5 years ago! whoa
still, I don't really think the format is necessarily unbalanced (as it was in say, the Affinity days), I just dislike the way cards that are way over the curve retroactively make a bunch of interesting or "build-around-me" stuff virtually unplayable in a serious deck, and the mythic era has kind of compounded this, as Wizards seems hellbent on printing a few such cards every set. Lately a lot of the most powerful cards have been either A) "deal with this immediately or you will lose" (such as the Titans, Wurmcoil, Hero, maybe Geist too), or B) "there is no good answer to this since it's too much card advantage/too cheap" - for example Snapcaster/Stoneforge/Delver really don't have good answers; they can be dealt with, but not in a way that's more efficient than the actual card. Wurmcoil sort of fits in this category too. Like, you may get burned by tapping out for Baneslayer and having it Dismembered right away, but most of the more powerful cards today don't even give your opponent the ability to respond to them in a manner that's actually efficient, meaning that the cards are so good that you have to search for reasons not to play them. Again I don't want to say this really unbalances things because T2 is relatively diverse now (or at least, it was a few months ago), it just sucks that Wizards has been printing so many neat/fun cards that really just can't see constructed play because they're so outclassed. anyway, rant over
― frogbs, Sunday, 26 August 2012 20:05 (8 months ago) Permalink
I do give 'em credit for Birthing Pod though, most engine-type cards like that get nerfed horribly in development
― frogbs, Sunday, 26 August 2012 20:07 (8 months ago) Permalink
just went on a little edh shopping spree on ebay. for less than $16 (including shipping) i got for my teneb the harvester deck: skullclamp, dauntless escort, aura shards, deadwood tree folk, loxodon hierarch, balance, qasali pridemage, saffi eriksdotter, elvish herder and magus of the disk.
― Mordy, Sunday, 26 August 2012 21:01 (8 months ago) Permalink
i love birthing pod so much. i play it in my teneb deck. one of the most fun cards i've ever played w/ tbh
― Mordy, Sunday, 26 August 2012 21:02 (8 months ago) Permalink
i'm particularly excited about a little loxodon hierarch/saffi eriksdotter/magus (and other removal) combo action
― Mordy, Sunday, 26 August 2012 21:03 (8 months ago) Permalink
mordy come to ny some weekend and we can go to a draft together
― iatee, Sunday, 26 August 2012 21:06 (8 months ago) Permalink
i would like to!
― Mordy, Sunday, 26 August 2012 21:07 (8 months ago) Permalink
rancor is a pretty sweet card too
― Mordy, Sunday, 26 August 2012 21:08 (8 months ago) Permalink
wait, Balance is LEGAL in EDH? (I don't really know what the ban list is but I'd assume the most powerful card of all time is on it)
― frogbs, Sunday, 26 August 2012 22:43 (8 months ago) Permalink
balance def didn't have the feel of an ultimate broken card back in the day. was it because there weren't ways to use it as effectively?
― iatee, Sunday, 26 August 2012 22:47 (8 months ago) Permalink
the same is true w/ swords
― iatee, Sunday, 26 August 2012 22:48 (8 months ago) Permalink
looking it up it was restricted in 1995 so maybe I'm wrong
― iatee, Sunday, 26 August 2012 22:55 (8 months ago) Permalink
This is a total guess but I think Zuran Orb might be the card that ultimately did it in?
― frogbs, Sunday, 26 August 2012 22:57 (8 months ago) Permalink
yeah looking back at the era, that seems very likely:http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/25bhttp://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/25e
― iatee, Sunday, 26 August 2012 23:05 (8 months ago) Permalink
still feel like, overall even a deck w/ 4 zuran orbs and 4 balances back then wouldn't be dominant in later eras. like that hernandez deck is kinda innocent all things considered.
― iatee, Sunday, 26 August 2012 23:07 (8 months ago) Permalink
i think balance is banned but restore balance isn't?
― Mordy, Sunday, 26 August 2012 23:23 (8 months ago) Permalink
obv balance >>> restore balance alas
― Mordy, Sunday, 26 August 2012 23:24 (8 months ago) Permalink
looking at old stuff balance-zuran orb was def 'a thing'
― iatee, Sunday, 26 August 2012 23:31 (8 months ago) Permalink
I loved reading that post even from a non-Magic angle. It reminded me that the 1990s was not so long ago and people were actually clever and articulate, not just pre-Internet savages who ate their own hair.
― fields of salmon, Sunday, 26 August 2012 23:36 (8 months ago) Permalink
I guess an interesting question is how dominant could it have grown in a counterfactual world where it was unrestricted during the necro era
― iatee, Sunday, 26 August 2012 23:46 (8 months ago) Permalink
man that listserv is interesting
― iatee, Monday, 27 August 2012 00:03 (8 months ago) Permalink
did u guys take the time to figure out why that deck would be unstoppable? i'm curious but not enough to look up all those cards
― Mordy, Monday, 27 August 2012 00:08 (8 months ago) Permalink
ok, looked up a few. looks like your library is all very low cost artifacts so u can shed your hand quickly, tutor balance, then you rack them + paupers' cage them to death (both do damage to players w/ small hands)
― Mordy, Monday, 27 August 2012 00:13 (8 months ago) Permalink
looks like you just blow your hand early, tutor for Balance (Mystical Tutor as a 4-of...whoa), use it to destroy their creatures and their hand, use Zur's Weirding to deny their draws, kill 'em with the Rack and Mishra's Factories?
at the time I don't think creature-based strategies were really quick enough to deal with something like this
― frogbs, Monday, 27 August 2012 00:16 (8 months ago) Permalink
yeah creature decks were pretty much unplayable in the early days, they took like 5 or 6 turns to kill undisrupted, when that number really has to be 4 to compete with combo. the decks during urza's saga era couldn't even play the most efficient creatures like savannah lions because they had to play entirely artifact/enchantment destroying creatures like elvish lyrist and goblin tinkerer in order to have enough outs to the turn 2/3 combo kills.
― ciderpress, Monday, 27 August 2012 02:30 (8 months ago) Permalink
I think that's a little too broad a statement. control/combo decks were generally slower too and if you look at top decks during the early period there are plenty of creature-based decks. (to me urza's saga is no longer the early days).
― iatee, Monday, 27 August 2012 03:23 (8 months ago) Permalink
like that 1996 deck seems pretty unintimidating but it was tournament playable because the rest of the game was slower too
― iatee, Monday, 27 August 2012 03:27 (8 months ago) Permalink
new preview cards in this article all look great, i am even more excited for this set now
― ciderpress, Monday, 27 August 2012 06:06 (8 months ago) Permalink
Yeah I really get the sense that RTR is going to be their best big set yet. That UR goblin seems super powerful, can't believe it's only common.
― frogbs, Monday, 27 August 2012 13:43 (8 months ago) Permalink
going to a draft in 40 mins :)
― iatee, Friday, 31 August 2012 22:08 (8 months ago) Permalink
quick someone tell me the money cards
― iatee, Friday, 31 August 2012 22:10 (8 months ago) Permalink
there is one with a marginally more efficient creature and then there are two that lock into a peculiar arbitrary pattern allowing you to win the game in three turns via rules lawyering
― thomp, Friday, 31 August 2012 22:13 (8 months ago) Permalink
― frogbs, Friday, 31 August 2012 22:14 (8 months ago) Permalink
― iatee, Friday, 31 August 2012 22:15 (8 months ago) Permalink
draft tips asap!!! I have 30 mins
and am unfamiliar w/ the set outside of historic-cards and stuff on the ipad app
it looks like a lot of this is on the ipad app actually
― iatee, Friday, 31 August 2012 22:16 (8 months ago) Permalink
ummm lets see, there's B/W exalted, W/x soldier deck with stuff like Crusader of Odric, a quick red Goblin deck, lots of good green fatties, blue has flyers, obviously
Core set draft is pretty easy in general. Find an uncommon or rare to build around, go to town
― frogbs, Friday, 31 August 2012 22:20 (8 months ago) Permalink
get some good creatures, pay attention to mana curve (heavily weighed towards 1 + 2 mana creatures) have fun!
― Mordy, Friday, 31 August 2012 22:25 (8 months ago) Permalink
what cards are worth $
― iatee, Friday, 31 August 2012 22:25 (8 months ago) Permalink
it was fun! so many nerds. so many nerds.
― iatee, Saturday, 1 September 2012 02:38 (8 months ago) Permalink
i'd participate much more in nerd culture if not for the nerds
― Mordy, Saturday, 1 September 2012 03:30 (8 months ago) Permalink
did you manage to grab a sublime archangel?
― Moodles, Saturday, 1 September 2012 04:07 (8 months ago) Permalink
no, it woulda been nice tho, cause I had a black/white deck w/ a lot of exalted. still only did so-so cause I had a lot of bad draws. will def go back, the store is really close to my work + train home and everyone was really friendly.
― iatee, Saturday, 1 September 2012 22:30 (8 months ago) Permalink
yeah i started playinng at the local store last year and was surprised to find that most of the MTG regulars there are my age instead of highschool/college age like i had assumed, and there aren't any of the stereotypical tantrum-throwing antisocial nerds. its pretty chill
very brief tips for m13:-the power uncommons that you're looking to first-pick, in no particular order: Serra Angel, Oblivion Ring, Talrand's Invocation, Vampire Nighthawk, Flames of the Firebrand-the best commons, same deal as above: Searing Spear, Murder, Pacifism, Sentinel Spider (the green serra angel!)-exalted plays very strong in limited and pretty much every creature with it is a good pick-there are a ton of 3/3 creatures in the format, and therefore 2/2s get outclassed/brickwalled a lot. i avoid taking 2/2s or smaller unless they have a good ability.-Chronomaton looks innocent but is actually one of the strongest cards in draft because it has no color commitment and because the games tend to go long enough to grow him real big. i'd pick it below the cards listed above and good rares, but above eveything else
― ciderpress, Saturday, 1 September 2012 23:35 (8 months ago) Permalink
I actually had serra angel, oblivion ring, 2 pacifisms and a murder
I had to pass a vampire nighthawk, I think for uh I forgot what it's called, but the 3/6 black rare that turns creatures into walls
― iatee, Saturday, 1 September 2012 23:37 (8 months ago) Permalink
your deck sounds insane then, that thing is arguably the best card in the entire set in limited
― ciderpress, Saturday, 1 September 2012 23:38 (8 months ago) Permalink
yeah I feel like my deck was 'good' in principle, had like 7 exalted creatures too, I just had really bad luck and maybe needed to play more than 13 creatures
― iatee, Saturday, 1 September 2012 23:40 (8 months ago) Permalink
here is the decklist
duressdark favor duty-bound deadessence drainliliana's shademurderpublic execution2 servant of nefaroxtormented soulxathridring of thunering of xathrid 2 aven squire griffin protecter 2 pacifismobliv ring
then this stuff came in and out depnding on the opponent: 2 ajani's sunstriker1 captain's callanother griffin protecter battleflight eagleravenous rats
― iatee, Saturday, 1 September 2012 23:56 (8 months ago) Permalink
oh and serra angel
― iatee, Saturday, 1 September 2012 23:57 (8 months ago) Permalink
Liliana's shade was giving me fits on mtgo last night. Thinking of dropping a couple in my irl deck to try out in f next week.
― Moodles, Sunday, 2 September 2012 01:39 (8 months ago) Permalink
In fnm next week, that is
― Moodles, Sunday, 2 September 2012 01:40 (8 months ago) Permalink
that looks good, you definitely seem to know what you're doing - i wouldn't play dark favor maindeck, since exalted decks tend to be medium speed and that card works best in a really fast deck. would play the 2nd griffin protector instead probably, having flying guys is good when you're often turning your opponents stuff into walls rather than killing it
also duress tends to be a better sideboard card than maindeck card, since having a dead card vs like a green-based all-creatures deck is bad
― ciderpress, Sunday, 2 September 2012 01:43 (8 months ago) Permalink
though by all means bring dark favor in vs decks without a lot of removal, sometimes you can win just by slapping it on a tormented soul turn 2
― ciderpress, Sunday, 2 September 2012 01:45 (8 months ago) Permalink
cool they finally made a card that specifically destroys planeswalkers
― ciderpress, Sunday, 2 September 2012 03:09 (8 months ago) Permalink
bunch of RTR spoilers just came out
-shocklands are back (of course)-new Jace is shockingly not overpowered-BR: Destroy target creature or planeswalker, wowowow
this set is going to rule
― frogbs, Sunday, 2 September 2012 13:46 (8 months ago) Permalink
i love the common dual-lands and associated cards
― ciderpress, Sunday, 2 September 2012 13:50 (8 months ago) Permalink
seriously considering buying into a modern deck now since this set's going to lower the barrier to entry by a fair amount and people might actually play the format outside of high-level events. not sure if i really want to drop $100 on a playset of thoughtseizes though..
― ciderpress, Sunday, 2 September 2012 13:54 (8 months ago) Permalink
i should probably be banned from drafting this format http://i.imgur.com/6Rqww.jpg
― ciderpress, Sunday, 2 September 2012 15:46 (8 months ago) Permalink
How long should I expect a local booster draft event to run for?
― Moodles, Tuesday, 4 September 2012 14:09 (8 months ago) Permalink
you should ask the store how many rounds they run - at the store i play at, it's 40 minutes to draft and deckbuild, followed by 3 50-minute rounds, so it works out to around 3 hours total, assuming you play all 3 rounds (people often drop before the last round if they're out of the money, or draw the last round to split prizes if they're in the money)
― ciderpress, Tuesday, 4 September 2012 15:12 (8 months ago) Permalink
rounds in MTG events are always 50 minutes plus some overage time (if time runs out, you get 5 more turns to win before the match becomes a draw) so it'll probably be an hour per round plus another 30-60 minutes for the draft itself
― ciderpress, Tuesday, 4 September 2012 15:18 (8 months ago) Permalink
most 8-man drafts I've done are around 2 hours in total
― frogbs, Tuesday, 4 September 2012 15:34 (8 months ago) Permalink
welp that's my 3rd M13 4-pack Sealed, went 2-1 every time, every single game I've lost was due to Jace/Sands of Delirium, god damn it
― frogbs, Wednesday, 5 September 2012 00:53 (8 months ago) Permalink
I drafted again
had a red/white burn/token deck that people seemed to think was pretty good but still only went 1-2 due to luck. but I drafted a thragtusk and foil talrand just to sell, which almost paid for the night.
― iatee, Wednesday, 5 September 2012 02:27 (8 months ago) Permalink
haha, next time we meet up you'll have an edh deck
― Mordy, Wednesday, 5 September 2012 02:47 (8 months ago) Permalink
iatee msg me if you want to practice draft m13 ive drafted it a lot and think i have a reasonable handle on it
― Lamp, Wednesday, 5 September 2012 03:40 (8 months ago) Permalink
also it could be p fun
― Lamp, Wednesday, 5 September 2012 03:41 (8 months ago) Permalink
through what? magic online or is there another way we could do it? it would be fun tho, I still need some familiarity w/ lotsa cards, at this point I still prob make my color decisions too early
― iatee, Wednesday, 5 September 2012 03:42 (8 months ago) Permalink
theres a p decent draft sim that ive used to practice its not as a good as a real draft but its decent for like discussing pick vs pick stuff and general deck-building things
ive never tried team drafting on mtgo although ive seen people do it so it is theoretically possible
― Lamp, Wednesday, 5 September 2012 03:50 (8 months ago) Permalink
is it a program or a site? remember I'm ipad-bound, tho I can steal the lady's laptop on weekends.
― iatee, Wednesday, 5 September 2012 03:51 (8 months ago) Permalink
its a site
i think wizards also has one on their site as well actually iirc
― Lamp, Wednesday, 5 September 2012 03:54 (8 months ago) Permalink
let's do that sometime this week
― iatee, Wednesday, 5 September 2012 03:59 (8 months ago) Permalink
now that I have actual cards again I am tempted to try to teach gf, esp since her sister actually plays w/ HER bf, but her sister is also more tomboyish
― iatee, Wednesday, 5 September 2012 04:09 (8 months ago) Permalink
well u know how manly playing mtg can be
― Mordy, Wednesday, 5 September 2012 04:19 (8 months ago) Permalink
wowowow at the new planeswalker
seems a lot like Gideon to me in that it's gonna be a total bitch to get rid of. that ultimate is just bizarre but super awesome anyway
― frogbs, Wednesday, 5 September 2012 05:12 (8 months ago) Permalink
yall are serious about this shit huhi finally tried this about a week ago, been dicking around on the ipad. kinda funkinda obsessive
― This cad needs a cordial introduction to Eugene of Oxbow. (forksclovetofu), Wednesday, 5 September 2012 05:29 (8 months ago) Permalink
yeah i was p excited abt her too - not really sure how good shell be rn but im not great at predicting stuff like that. jund seems p crazy given the currently spoiled stuff tho
― Lamp, Thursday, 6 September 2012 17:30 (8 months ago) Permalink
im p glad i built jund for block rn tho
I don't think she's as good as Gideon but I like her because she's good in any situation. That ultimate is one of the neatest I've ever seen on a walker.
Gotta say I'm not really a fan of stuff like Dreadbore or that new Smother being rares
― frogbs, Thursday, 6 September 2012 18:46 (8 months ago) Permalink
i like that planeswalker a bunch but i don't think its super powerful - she doesn't really press an advantage very well if left unchecked
― ciderpress, Thursday, 6 September 2012 18:57 (8 months ago) Permalink
it's still amazing to me how much people overpay to preorder planeswalkers that will be $10-15 a month or 2 down the line
― ciderpress, Thursday, 6 September 2012 19:14 (8 months ago) Permalink
This one went from $30 to $40 quick. My guess is that she'll settle in the $20-25 range. I do agree that the thing doesn't really do much by just building to an ultimate but Rock-type decks (which love to press small advantages like these) will probably go nuts over a card like this.
― frogbs, Thursday, 6 September 2012 19:17 (8 months ago) Permalink
yeah the GB spell spoiled today is probably the best or at least most useful card spoiled yet but its shitty that its a rare instead of an uncommon
― Lamp, Thursday, 6 September 2012 19:18 (8 months ago) Permalink
i'd snap short it at $20
― ciderpress, Thursday, 6 September 2012 19:18 (8 months ago) Permalink
considering lilliana of the veil was briefly like $15 thats probably right
― Lamp, Thursday, 6 September 2012 19:19 (8 months ago) Permalink
whats the most expensive pw in standard rn? the new ajani?
yeah and that's under $20 already
― ciderpress, Thursday, 6 September 2012 19:21 (8 months ago) Permalink
I dunno, Karn is $15 even though it's about to rotate out and only really saw play as a 1-of. Planeswalkers have a lot of appeal across every format. It looks like BG/Jund is going to be a new thing and even if this is just a Lux Cannon that starts with five counters, that's really strong. I feel like this will just be one of those walkers that really is better than it looks because it helps in a lot of situations. That said I'm a little surprised that it's preordering at $40 while new Jace is only $25.
On the plus side, I can't wait to grind out drafts on MTGO, it looks like there are a bunch of money rares already. Abrupt Decay is preordering at $14, and you know the shocklands will be probably $10 apiece. Actually in general I think it may be a good idea to short-sell everything from this set as it's pretty much guaranteed to be the highest selling set in Magic history. Just sayin'.
― frogbs, Thursday, 6 September 2012 19:24 (8 months ago) Permalink
the average magic player is horrible at evaluating cards, is what it comes down to. if it was possible to short sell cards you could make a fortune (this is essentially what the big online retailers do by selling preorders)
― ciderpress, Thursday, 6 September 2012 19:24 (8 months ago) Permalink
yeah considering ive done several hundred m13 drafts i cant imagine how many ravnica ones ill end up doing so im not rushing to buy singles atp but sometimes stuff like the azorius mythic seems like decent value @ like $3
― Lamp, Thursday, 6 September 2012 19:26 (8 months ago) Permalink
but i am one of those people who is terrible at evaluating cards i mean i thought tibalt might be good so
― Lamp, Thursday, 6 September 2012 19:27 (8 months ago) Permalink
I think Tibalt is actually okay, there just isnt a deck for him yet. But everyone who think he's godawful probably isn't understanding that a two-mana planeswalker kinda has to suck.
― frogbs, Thursday, 6 September 2012 19:28 (8 months ago) Permalink
do you guys compete in local constructed events? is the only way to win these to have a deck full of $20 cards?
― Moodles, Thursday, 6 September 2012 19:28 (8 months ago) Permalink
if it was possible to short sell cards you could make a fortune
yeah I would have loved to do this with Temporal Mastery. I still love the card but it was pretty easy to predict a crash
― frogbs, Thursday, 6 September 2012 19:29 (8 months ago) Permalink
shocklands are not going to be $10 for long. unless the set somehow sells out completely like Worldwake did, the total value of the set has a ceiling set by the MSRP of the sealed product, and constructed-playable mythic rares eat up a lot of that space
― ciderpress, Thursday, 6 September 2012 19:29 (8 months ago) Permalink
― ciderpress, Thursday, 6 September 2012 19:34 (8 months ago) Permalink
looking at the starcity preorders supreme verdict @ $5 seems about right as well day hovered at $4 iirc over the last 6 months or so
fwiw ive always wondered how much of the preoder price spike is do to heightened demand and not just people speculating or misevaluating cards? like there has to be a decent # of players who want to have playsets of cards for decks right away and are willing to pay a premium for that. like obv shocklands will fall to like $7-$10 as soon as people start drafting but you can always make up the premium in prize money after a couple of weeks? idk
my deck doesnt have a card over $15 and i finished top 32 at a p big tournament last month so not really
― Lamp, Thursday, 6 September 2012 19:36 (8 months ago) Permalink
the birthing pod deck i won DKA Gameday with didn't have any $20 cards but it did have so many ~$5 cards in it that it was probably worth $200 on the whole anyway, so i dunno
― ciderpress, Thursday, 6 September 2012 19:38 (8 months ago) Permalink
generally i just draft so much that over time i end up with enough good cards to trade for the stuff i need for decks
― ciderpress, Thursday, 6 September 2012 19:40 (8 months ago) Permalink
actually kinda curious what the cheapest tournamet-viable standard deck is rn - mono-black infect?
― Lamp, Thursday, 6 September 2012 19:55 (8 months ago) Permalink
i think the main tip i can give for getting into constructed cheap is to pick the archetype you want to play and then identify the most crucial cards for that archetype and get those ASAP, and wait on getting the cards that have workable substitutes.
for example, if you want to play control, your deck probably isn't going to work without some rare board sweepers, whereas it matters a lot less whether you're closing out games with a $15 Consecrated Sphinx or a $1 Sphinx of Uthuun. likewise, if you want to play a green midrange deck, you absolutely need 4 Birds of Paradise (or whatever the current equivalent is) but it doesn't matter quite as much whether those birds are accelerating you into a $12 Thragtusk or a $3 Wolfir Silverheart
― ciderpress, Thursday, 6 September 2012 20:00 (8 months ago) Permalink
Lamp i've seen some supposedly <$30 WB tokens lists that look pretty solid. Infect leans too heavily on Inkmoth Nexus to be the cheapest deck
― ciderpress, Thursday, 6 September 2012 20:05 (8 months ago) Permalink
i think that was $30 on MTGO though, since isolated chapel is 10 bucks each in paper
― ciderpress, Thursday, 6 September 2012 20:06 (8 months ago) Permalink
yeah i meant paper
― Lamp, Thursday, 6 September 2012 20:06 (8 months ago) Permalink
I definitely need to find the right closer for this BW Exalted Soldiers thing I have going on. It's working really well at inflicting a bunch of damage in the first several turns, but tends to stall out and fall prey to more powerful removal. Odric, Master Tactician and Nefarox Overlord of Grixis are turning out to be a bit underwhelming mid-game.
― Moodles, Thursday, 6 September 2012 20:07 (8 months ago) Permalink
also w/b tokens isnt really tournament-viable
― Lamp, Thursday, 6 September 2012 20:08 (8 months ago) Permalink
I'd at least like to have a better shot at winning on Casual mtgo.
― Moodles, Thursday, 6 September 2012 20:09 (8 months ago) Permalink
sublime? i guess shes just as weak to snag &c
― Lamp, Thursday, 6 September 2012 20:14 (8 months ago) Permalink
probably good but $$$$
― Moodles, Thursday, 6 September 2012 20:23 (8 months ago) Permalink
I don't think the blue ones will dip below $10. I would guess the secondary market has learned its lesson w/r/t duals, especially shocklands which are basically played in every format, including casual/Commander. Does anyone remember what they went for the first time around? (I remember $8-$12, up to $15 for Breeding Pool)
― frogbs, Thursday, 6 September 2012 21:11 (8 months ago) Permalink
once again i would gladly short them all at $10, even hallowed fountain.
― ciderpress, Thursday, 6 September 2012 21:28 (8 months ago) Permalink
Finally got out to a FNM booster draft. Was a little caught off guard because I was expecting it to be M13 but it was Dark Ascension/Innistrad instead. Ended up with a RG deck heavy on werewolves and spiders and went 1-1-1. It was fun but I found competing against people who seemed much more knowledgable about MTG to be a bit stressful.
― Moodles, Saturday, 8 September 2012 06:39 (8 months ago) Permalink
thats weird, most places only run the newest set, and DKA/ISD is definitely a much harder format than M13 so don't be discouraged or anything
― ciderpress, Saturday, 8 September 2012 16:47 (8 months ago) Permalink
my local shop has run triple AVR and triple ISD the last two weeks because theyre out of M13 boosters. which has been p fun cuz im a little bored of M13 draft and also because i made the finals of both weeks
― Lamp, Saturday, 8 September 2012 17:56 (8 months ago) Permalink
I've been thinking a lot about draft strategy / playing some online test draft thing against computers. do you guys have any interesting articles/insights about how quickly to pick colors, how willing you should be to switch if you can read your neighbor's picks etc? I guess it probably depends a lot on the set, too.
― iatee, Saturday, 8 September 2012 19:13 (8 months ago) Permalink
also going mono seems like almost always a bad idea, but at what point is it not?
― iatee, Saturday, 8 September 2012 19:14 (8 months ago) Permalink
my feeling w/M13 is that you can place some premium on staying open in pack one primarily because the format is balanced enough that you want to make sure you're in the 'right' colors for your seat and second because i like having the option of taking a bomb rare or uncommon from pack two w/o regardless of color
i've only drafted a monocolor deck once and it was the obvious open krenko, mob boss p1p1 get passed arms dealer p1p2 sort of thing. i don't think its bad idea though there are decent mono decks in all five colors
― Lamp, Saturday, 8 September 2012 19:37 (8 months ago) Permalink
I guess I didn't mean bad idea in a 'you're doomed' but more that the marginal gain you'd get from having fewer mana problems is rarely going to be worth playing those last 6 or so subpar cards if you coulda had 6 more playable cards in a 2nd color.
― iatee, Saturday, 8 September 2012 19:41 (8 months ago) Permalink
yeah i don't think that mana consistency is enough of an issue in this set that it's desirable to force a mono deck but every color (except maybe blue) is def deep enough and has enough range to support it, provided it's open for your seat
― Lamp, Saturday, 8 September 2012 19:44 (8 months ago) Permalink
I'm also concerned that I have some bias against green, cause I almost never end up w/ it in the fake drafts
― iatee, Saturday, 8 September 2012 19:50 (8 months ago) Permalink
green is the best color!!
― Lamp, Saturday, 8 September 2012 20:04 (8 months ago) Permalink
yeah I know that's why I'm afraid I have a subconscious bias, also I think I prob like captain's call a little too much cause I always end up w/ 4. maybe the computers just don't like it enough.
― iatee, Saturday, 8 September 2012 20:07 (8 months ago) Permalink
I definitely went in to last night with the idea that I'd be playing either green/red or green/black.
I think there's nothing wrong with going for colors you like so long as you have some decent choices available to you.
― Moodles, Saturday, 8 September 2012 20:14 (8 months ago) Permalink
I think its more that I misjudge the power of midsized green creatures compared to more obviously good stuff in other colors
― iatee, Saturday, 8 September 2012 20:17 (8 months ago) Permalink
basically this; most cards you play are only going to require a single colored mana, so playing 11 Forests and 6 Mountains or whatever instead of 17 Forests is rarely going to screw you out of playing a lot of spells. that said I've done drafts where one color was super open, it just happens from time to time, especially if you're sitting by a drafter who chooses their colors before the draft even starts
reading your neighbor's cards is tough; I think it's easy to figure out what the two guys to your left are playing based on what you're passing, but sometimes it's tough to figure out whether two packs w/ no good White cards is a sign or a fluke. In AVR this was really hard because so many commons were just unplayable.
― frogbs, Sunday, 9 September 2012 00:27 (8 months ago) Permalink
the problem with green is that often its creatures just aren't actually much better on-curve than the other colors. Centaur Courser is such an important card to have access to, even though it looks pretty simple, since other colors generally need a 4-drop or even a 5-drop to handle it. having access a 2-drop with deathtouch is pretty important too since if you're in green you'll have less access to hard removal
― ciderpress, Sunday, 9 September 2012 01:27 (8 months ago) Permalink
The two cards I'm trying to figure out most are Mindclaw Shaman and Sands of Delirium. Mindclaw seems like it has the potential to swing games, but I'm always unsure of when to pick it, or when to side it out. If Duress is not very playable due to the possibility of striking out then I wonder how much a 5-drop 2/2 is when it seems much more likely (as they will have had chances to cast their spells by then). Sands I wonder about as a 1st pick; assuming no foil rare (so the pack is all commons and uncommons) would you take anything p1p1 over it? How about p2p1, when you're already in (say) Black, would you take Murder or Vampire Nighthawk over it? Sands just seems so good at winning games that may not be winnable otherwise, as well as giving you the luxury to just say "all I have to do is stay alive for a few turns and I win". I'm not sure if I'd ever pass the thing.
― frogbs, Sunday, 9 September 2012 03:07 (8 months ago) Permalink
sands is tricky since your deck has to be good enough at stabilizing the board that it can do it with one fewer card, which hasn't been the case a couple of the times i've had it. it's definitely a strong card though in the right deck.
mindclaw is awesome and i pick it pretty high, within red i have it about equivalent to furnace whelp, i.e. worse than spot removal, better than other creatures except for flunkies if you're a beatdown deck. you can side it out vs green-white decks since they don't have as many targets for it
― ciderpress, Sunday, 9 September 2012 03:45 (8 months ago) Permalink
Oh wait, did we not link to this? AV Club did a thing this week:
Revisiting Magic: The Gathering as a grown-up nerd
― Fiendish Doctor Wu (kingfish), Sunday, 9 September 2012 05:05 (8 months ago) Permalink
yeah I've had a fun time with Sands lately. seem to always get it in my opening hand which is not really optimal. then I had one game that I won on turn 28 (!) because it was the 5th-last card in my deck. was actually DOA the turn before if he had swung with all his flyers but I guess he played it safe not thinking about getting ducked.
my problem with Mindclaw is that you'd never say, side out a Furnace Whelp, so I tend to be careful about taking it too early. I've gotten destroyed by them (one took a Predatory Rampage, barf), and saved (by hitting a Sleep), but it's such a hard one to evaluate. I'll take your word for it.
― frogbs, Sunday, 9 September 2012 05:19 (8 months ago) Permalink
― if markers existed (buzza), Sunday, 9 September 2012 06:50 (8 months ago) Permalink
― iatee, Sunday, 9 September 2012 15:24 (8 months ago) Permalink
great article. i played maybe one game of Magic in my life but it always looked like a blast
― Emperor Cos Dashit (Adam Bruneau), Sunday, 9 September 2012 15:28 (8 months ago) Permalink
Sands I wonder about as a 1st pick; assuming no foil rare (so the pack is all commons and uncommons) would you take anything p1p1 over it? How about p2p1, when you're already in (say) Black, would you take Murder or Vampire Nighthawk over it?
sands is always a 1st pick ime even over flames. p1p2 i might take a card that solidified a bomb 1st pick over it - like arms dealer + krenko or talrand + talrand or something. there are still outs to sands so if i pass it can prioritize them but yeah, i would hate to have to pass it.
i think mindclaw shaman sucks but i dont tend to draft the sort of decks that want it, maybe? i always find myself passing them even really late but that might be a hole in my game. i just dont think its efficient enough to main deck in most of my draft decks
― Lamp, Sunday, 9 September 2012 18:54 (8 months ago) Permalink
the thing with Sands is that it always seems so much better to draw it on turn 5-6 rather than have it in your opener. But when it comes out, it's usually ridiculous. Like you just have to get them to say 14 cards left w/ 7 mana out and you just pass one turn to win.
Mindclaw would be an awesome card to see statistics on through MTGO or whatever; what % does it hit, and what spells does it usually grab. Because hitting something like Essence Drain, Public Execution, Sleep, Turn to Slag, etc. with it seems like just an insane advantage, not just casting it, but denying your opponent the spell too. Even a glorified Ravenous Rates at 4R doesn't seem horrible. But it would be nice to know how likely you are to grab something.
― frogbs, Monday, 10 September 2012 05:17 (8 months ago) Permalink
it seems pretty bad to me. it's worse than duress (a marginal sideboard card), because not only do they have to have a non-creature non-land in their hand, they had to have gotten to turn 5-7 without actually casting it, and not be in a position where they can just respond to the mindclaw shaman with their instant. also it doesn't hit planeswalkers, and there are a large number of instant/sorceries that won't do anything, even if you mindclaw them. the 2/2 body is an upside compared to duress, but it wouldn't be relevant on turn 3, let alone turn 5-7, and it's certainly not worth 4 extra mana. pass.
― webber, Monday, 10 September 2012 05:26 (8 months ago) Permalink
in limited, those last couple cards in their hand on turn 5 or 6 are much more likely to be removal though, and if you hit with it you win the game a very high % of the time. it's a high-risk high-reward card obviously, and i've had reasonable success with it so far
― ciderpress, Monday, 10 September 2012 13:17 (8 months ago) Permalink
It's not a Duress any more than Mind Control is Murder, you know?
I kind of wonder how many instants and sorceries regularly get cast on the first 5 turns. I haven't drafted the card enough to really know but as cider says hitting something like a removal spell or a Sleep is basically game over
― frogbs, Monday, 10 September 2012 13:20 (8 months ago) Permalink
Mindclaw is a great sideboard card, there's certain decks it's just insane against. Was watching a stream lately where a guy cast it, opponent revealed a hand of Mind Rot + 2 creatures. Those kind of moments are what I live for in Magic.
So psyched for Ravnica 2, and I'll be going with some friends to the Ravnica sealed deck Grand Prix in Philly at the end of October. Anyone here played in those bigger tournaments like Grand Prixes?
― Vinnie, Monday, 10 September 2012 13:54 (8 months ago) Permalink
The upside is too insane to leave it in your sideboard. Anyway come to think of it I'm pretty bummed this thing was never around in the days of Cruel Control. What a ballbuster.
GP's are fun if you go with a large group, otherwise it's just too many Magic players in a too small space for me. You really have to make a day of it. Maybe I'm biased because I've had bad experiences. I did one where I wound up in a spot where a win would give me top 8 and I wound up playing against a guy who couldn't get top 8, but could get top 16 with a win or split - don't really know the specifics, but I found out from some guys watching the match that he was stalling hardcore for the draw. I was playing Millstone and had him DOA but the game took too long. Another one I go 5-1 with a goofy Nomad Mythmaker deck and get a match loss due to marked sleeves (this was where I learned to always either shuffle your sleeves or your deck before sleeving). The one I did top 8 I had a bad time b/c my last Swiss round guy flipped out when I beat him with a "random Stonewood Invocation" (which was like, my favorite card at the time and I played 4), having to hear him bitch about the "stupid kid that just lucked a victory" from a distance was not fun at all.
― frogbs, Monday, 10 September 2012 14:08 (8 months ago) Permalink
have not played a grand prix, had to skip the one here last month because i was in the process of moving and didn't have time to go. honestly, playing 9 rounds of magic in one day sounds like too much to me, i start to feel gross and exhausted after 4 or 5 rounds at the local shop
― ciderpress, Monday, 10 September 2012 14:11 (8 months ago) Permalink
agreed. my shop will do 5 rounds/top 8 tournaments with 40-some people and after the Swiss portion everyone really just wants to drink. especially the Sealeds with top 8 draft, you wind up really not wanting to draft, which sounds weird now, but trust me
― frogbs, Monday, 10 September 2012 14:13 (8 months ago) Permalink
won my draft tonight w/ black/white exalted (again) I sorta hated my deck but it got the job done
― iatee, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 03:19 (8 months ago) Permalink
yeah i don't actually like the pure exalted decks much, most of the good exalted creatures die to Chandra's Fury or Cower in Fear so it's easy to set yourself up to get blown out
― ciderpress, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 13:46 (8 months ago) Permalink
I seem to get forced into Exalted an awful lot too. War Falcon just seems to table so frequently, and that + Aven Squire or one of the Knights is such a great start, maybe the best in the format.
Did wind up losing to a Fog Bank though. Yep. An 0/2 wall.
― frogbs, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 14:05 (8 months ago) Permalink
I had a pretty good mana curve so a lot of my wins were like, duty bound dead -> white or black exalted knight dude -> one of the many exalted 3 drops. I had no real bombs and only pacifism and murder but the swarm did the job most of the time.
― iatee, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 14:12 (8 months ago) Permalink
Duty Bound Dead is a great way to start. In constructed play, I'm even more fond of kicking off with Diregraf Ghoul. Adding in Vault of the Archangel helps give the exalted deck some extra backbone once you have a bunch of these small creatures on the board.
― Moodles, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 14:22 (8 months ago) Permalink
If we're talking constructed, is anyone playing Sublime Archangel yet?
― frogbs, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 14:27 (8 months ago) Permalink
I would be if it didn't cost $$$$. Just got beatdown last night by someone playing a bunch of these on MTGO.
― Moodles, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 14:27 (8 months ago) Permalink
i haven't tried it yet, since i generally prefer to go over the top in constructed instead of beating down
― ciderpress, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 14:58 (8 months ago) Permalink
I just made a Clock of Omens infinite combo deck that cost a total of $15 and has like 20 rares in it (sadly, it's all rotating out soon)
It's okay, but super fun (the infinite combo almost never happens though)
― frogbs, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 15:18 (8 months ago) Permalink
psst you should set yourself up to play the angel of glory's rise reanimator deck right after rotation, i think everyone's gonna be on zombies out of the gates
― ciderpress, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 15:24 (8 months ago) Permalink
One thing I think is funny about M13 is how Fog Bank seems like it was designed as a response to Exalted, because it completely shuts that deck down, but then you have Cripping Blight which almost seems like it was designed as an answer to Fog Bank.
― Vinnie, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 17:44 (8 months ago) Permalink
it's almost as if they have a team of like 5-6 people spending months on all these little details for each set! (they do)
― ciderpress, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 18:03 (8 months ago) Permalink
yep - I may have mentioned this upthread but the way Think Twice was chosen as an Innistrad reprint because Blue was supposed to be anti-wolf and it could flip werewolves in one shot really blew my mind.
M13 design really was very tight - the combo of Mogg Flunkies and Reckless Brute was definitely intended, but there are also subtle designs too, Merfolk of the Pearl Trident was apparently printed to give blue an answer to Brute, you're supposed to side it in. The way White has several paths for Limited is quite interesting (Exalted, plus a soldier token theme that goes along with Griffin Protector and the double Soul Warden) and unlike core sets in the past. I also love how Tormented Soul was in M12 but filled a totally different purpose there. Design/development has really been knocking them out of the park lately.
― frogbs, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 18:09 (8 months ago) Permalink
yeah 'back in the day' I don't remember limited play being so balanced and well thought out. there really isn't a weak color in m13 limited (red seems like it comes closest?)
― iatee, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 18:28 (8 months ago) Permalink
I esp remember blue and white being hard to draft, cause they were just always playing from behind
― iatee, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 18:50 (8 months ago) Permalink
i guess it depends when you were playing. Invasion was the first fun and balanced limited set, everything before it was pretty miserable for limited (seriously, urza's saga had Pestilence at COMMON. what the fuck)
― ciderpress, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 18:59 (8 months ago) Permalink
Invasion was incredible! That was really a new era of Magic design. That said I have to defend Urza's block a bit, it really was a great format in spite of Pestilence, though that was the first and only card I've ever thought should be banned in Limited
― frogbs, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 19:02 (8 months ago) Permalink
I was playing pre-urzas, so I drafted a lot of mirage and tempest block
― iatee, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 19:06 (8 months ago) Permalink
yeah i think those are both better than urza's and masques but worse than anything invasion-onwards, at least in terms of design and balance
― ciderpress, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 19:11 (8 months ago) Permalink
actually i'd probably rather play tempest limited than zendikar or AVR
― ciderpress, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 19:12 (8 months ago) Permalink
any set where a third of the white commons are circle of protections is lame
― iatee, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 19:21 (8 months ago) Permalink
I have a habit of collecting unopened boxes - when I win prizes for drafts I used to save them for "home drafting", but I'd never do that, so I'd just save up to 36 and trade 'em all in for a box, hoping it would have some trade value later. Today the store owner told me that for the final set of this block he wanted to do a prerelease that included Ravnica/Guildpact/Dissension and that he was willing to buy my boxes (I have one of each). Combined price is over a grand right now! How did this happen!? I'm thinking of just saying 800 flat (as this is already a windfall for me) but when did these actually begin to accumulate value? The Rav box is 400 - even if shocks weren't coming back, it's near impossible to pull that much value out of 36 packs. You'd need 2 Dark Confidants and like 10 shocks to get close.
― frogbs, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 21:24 (8 months ago) Permalink
I'd say it's due to being one of the most universally acclaimed limited formats of all time, plus age and being out of print, plus nostalgia from Return to Ravnica.
― webber, Thursday, 13 September 2012 02:12 (8 months ago) Permalink
Yeah, it must be all about draft value. Several years ago, I went on a small buying spree to catch up on the years of sets I had skipped, and a starter box of Invasion was a sizable amount less per card than a booster box. Makes sense when you think about it.
― Vinnie, Thursday, 13 September 2012 13:26 (8 months ago) Permalink
Ajani, Caller of the Pride 1.40Primordial Hydra 1.49Jace, Memory Adept 1.54Chandra, the Firebrand 1.56Garruk, Primal Hunter 1.60Sublime Archangel 1.67Odric, Master Tactician 1.69Thragtusk 1.70Liliana of the Dark Realms 1.73Thundermaw Hellkite 1.78Captain of the Watch 1.82Nefarox, Overlord of Grixis 1.82Sphinx of Uthuun 1.86Akroma's Memorial 1.88Stuffy Doll 1.90Staff of Nin 1.92Elderscale Wurm 2.01Talrand, Sky Summoner 2.11Krenko, Mob Boss 2.13Serra Avenger 2.17Silklash Spider 2.18Yeva, Nature's Herald 2.19Xathrid Gorgon 2.23Rancor 2.27Clone 2.36Cathedral of War 2.38Oblivion Ring 2.38Intrepid Hero 2.40Vampire Nighthawk 2.41Sands of Delirium 2.54Disciple of Bolas 2.54Vampire Nocturnus 2.60Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker 2.60Predatory Rampage 2.64Shimian Specter 2.64Mutilate 2.70Serra Angel 2.75Magmaquake 2.89Firewing Phoenix 2.90Stormtide Leviathan 2.90Rhox Faithmender 2.92Talrand's Invocation 2.94Serra Avatar 2.97Quirion Dryad 2.97Slumbering Dragon 2.98Void Stalker 2.99Knight of Glory 3.01Gilded Lotus 3.17Murder 3.19Trading Post 3.19Knight of Infamy 3.31Garruk's Packleader 3.59Aven Squire 3.60Elvish Archdruid 3.60Flames of the Firebrand 3.63Pacifism 3.75Sleep 3.77Planar Cleansing 3.87Attended Knight 3.92Redirect 3.94Acidic Slime 4.02Hamletback Goliath 4.03Phylactery Lich 4.08Searing Spear 4.12Sentinel Spider 4.12Reverberate 4.17Arctic Aven 4.22Fog Bank 4.26Volcanic Geyser 4.35Crusader of Odric 4.42Switcheroo 4.46Duskdale Wurm 4.51Hellion Crucible 4.53Public Execution 4.53Spelltwine 4.73Arbor Elf 4.73Master of the Pearl Trident 4.75Healer of the Pride 4.78Deadly Recluse 4.78Rise from the Grave 4.80Roaring Primadox 4.83Fervor 4.83Giant Scorpion 4.95Faith's Reward 4.96Elvish Visionary 4.98Duskmantle Prowler 5.00Angelic Benediction 5.12Arms Dealer 5.18War Priest of Thune 5.35Augur of Bolas 5.38Divination 5.38Glacial Fortress 5.49Jace's Phantasm 5.51Drowned Catacomb 5.54Dragonskull Summit 5.60Rootbound Crag 5.64Ajani's Sunstriker 5.65Servant of Nefarox 5.69Primal Huntbeast 5.70Mwonvuli Beast Tracker 5.71Wind Drake 5.73Sunpetal Grove 5.75Harbor Bandit 5.75Guardians of Akrasa 5.76Divine Verdict 5.78Bloodhunter Bat 5.80Welkin Tern 5.82Captain's Call 5.83Bladetusk Boar 5.83Chronomaton 5.86Duty-Bound Dead 5.93Primal Clay 5.96Ring of Xathrid 6.12Furnace Whelp 6.17Essence Scatter 6.20Griffin Protector 6.24Prized Elephant 6.25Elixir of Immortality 6.25Faerie Invaders 6.29Krenko's Command 6.30Mark of Mutiny 6.30Scroll Thief 6.35Cower in Fear 6.38Ring of Thune 6.39Flinthoof Boar 6.40Sign in Blood 6.47Farseek 6.47Turn to Slag 6.48Rewind 6.49Tormented Soul 6.50Evolving Wilds 6.50Essence Drain 6.51Goblin Arsonist 6.57Ring of Kalonia 6.58Kitesail 6.70Timberpack Wolf 6.76Unsummon 6.83Negate 6.87Prey Upon 6.90Ravenous Rats 6.93Centaur Courser 6.99Mind Rot 7.01Ring of Evos Isle 7.02Duress 7.03Diabolic Revelation 7.07Ring of Valkas 7.13Archaeomancer 7.26Titanic Growth 7.30Crimson Muckwader 7.35Mogg Flunkies 7.37Mindclaw Shaman 7.39Plummet 7.43Spiked Baloth 7.43Safe Passage 7.45Mind Sculpt 7.45Walking Corpse 7.46Encrust 7.47Bloodthrone Vampire 7.61Yeva's Forcemage 7.63Silvercoat Lion 7.77Fungal Sprouting 7.89Dark Favor 8.02Mark of the Vampire 8.08Divine Favor 8.15Worldfire 8.16Fog 8.20Courtly Provocateur 8.27Warclamp Mastiff 8.39Vedalken Entrancer 8.43Harbor Serpent 8.57Omniscience 8.57Volcanic Strength 8.63Liliana's Shade 8.64Bond Beetle 8.65Kraken Hatchling 8.67Disentomb 8.69Chandra's Fury 8.70Vastwood Gorger 8.70Naturalize 8.73Canyon Minotaur 8.76Battleflight Eagle 8.86Tricks of the Trade 8.91Jayemdae Tome 8.94Blood Reckoning 9.05War Falcon 9.08Phyrexian Hulk 9.10Downpour 9.12Rain of Blades 9.16Dragon Hatchling 9.23Crippling Blight 9.33Torch Fiend 9.38Vile Rebirth 9.40Revive 9.40Fire Elemental 9.41Rummaging Goblin 9.44Boundless Realms 9.46Veilborn Ghoul 9.54Ranger's Path 9.80Ground Seal 9.86Touch of the Eternal 9.89Gem of Becoming 9.93Reckless Brute 10.00Show of Valor 10.04Watercourser 10.11Cleaver Riot 10.11Index 10.13Wall of Fire 10.24Reliquary Tower 10.25Wit's End 10.26Goblin Battle Jester 10.27Glorious Charge 10.35Merfolk of the Pearl Trident 10.45Zombie Goliath 10.52Kindled Fury 10.79Trumpet Blast 10.86Door to Nothingness 11.03Guardian Lions 11.06Pillarfield Ox 11.07Tormod's Crypt 11.10Wild Guess 11.13Angel's Mercy 11.21Erase 11.21Serpent's Gift 11.24Hydrosurge 11.59Smelt 11.99Bountiful Harvest 12.03Battle of Wits 12.10Craterize 12.10Clock of Omens 12.58Forest 12.85Plains 12.89Mountain 13.01Island 13.20Swamp 13.65
― iatee, Saturday, 15 September 2012 20:47 (8 months ago) Permalink
that's an 'average pick #' from the draft sim site I found and have been playing around w/ today. it seems fairly accurate in the 'you'd almost always pick the highest ranked card of your color/s' way. what cards on this list do you guys disagree most w/, ranking-wise?
― iatee, Saturday, 15 September 2012 20:48 (8 months ago) Permalink
theres a lot of raredrafting bias on that it seems - for example in black liliana is worse than xathrid gorgon, nefarox, mutilate, and vampire nighthawk
staff of nin should be #1 on the list without considering card prices because its a top 5 card in the set and is colorless
― ciderpress, Saturday, 15 September 2012 21:09 (8 months ago) Permalink
this is really tough to judge, as $ concerns obviously cloud some of this (for example Master of the Pearl Trident being at above 5 when it's basically useless in Limited)
anyway, I think Arms Dealer is ranked way too low (it's a 1st-2nd pick IMO), Deadly Recluse is also something you want to snap up quick, though there are a lot of good green commons.
also feel that Wind Drake is too high, War Falcon too low
― frogbs, Saturday, 15 September 2012 21:09 (8 months ago) Permalink
yeah i'd actually say most of these are pretty off - just noticed watercourser at 10.11 while wind drake is well into the top half. i take the courser over wind drake in almost every blue deck
― ciderpress, Saturday, 15 September 2012 21:11 (8 months ago) Permalink
Clone seems way overrated too... it's a flexible card that would go in any deck but above Cathedral of War and Oblivion Ring?
― iatee, Saturday, 15 September 2012 21:14 (8 months ago) Permalink
but while actually using the site (http://tappedout.net/mtg-draft-simulator) the rankings (which they put under the cards) seem to fit fairly well w/ my choices
― iatee, Saturday, 15 September 2012 21:15 (8 months ago) Permalink
my understnading about those sites is that the rankings are generated from the users, and people who are using practice draft sims are generally not going to be the strongest drafters
plus M13 is way more of a synergy set than a goodstuff set unlike previous core sets - there's more of a distinct divide between cards for control and beatdown decks and therefore something like Welkin Tern can be a top 3 pick or an unplayable depending on what you're trying to do
― ciderpress, Saturday, 15 September 2012 21:18 (8 months ago) Permalink
I'd pick Sleep over like 60% of the cards above it, most of which are really not that great in Limited (Vampire Nocturnus seems like a good early pick until you realize that it's a vanilla 3/3 most of the time and there is only a couple of Vampires in the set)
― frogbs, Saturday, 15 September 2012 21:24 (8 months ago) Permalink
other rankings I'm questioning, tell me yr thoughts:
Stormtide Leviathan 2.90Gilded Lotus 3.17Sleep 3.77Chronomaton 5.86Duty-Bound Dead 5.93Krenko's Command 6.30Tormented Soul 6.50Prey Upon 6.90Encrust 7.47Courtly Provocateur 8.27
― iatee, Saturday, 15 September 2012 21:26 (8 months ago) Permalink
Went 2-1 last night in another innistrad/dark ascension draft with red/green werewolves. Not sure I really get the love for these sets versus the general disinterest in m13 at my local store.
― Moodles, Saturday, 15 September 2012 21:26 (8 months ago) Permalink
ha really, is sleep that good? when I've played against it all it does is buy someone some time. I guess it could be a win in the right circumstance, but cards that depend on circumstance aren't as good as cards that are always gonna be useful.
― iatee, Saturday, 15 September 2012 21:27 (8 months ago) Permalink
(the 5+s in that I think are underrated)
― iatee, Saturday, 15 September 2012 21:28 (8 months ago) Permalink
Stormtide - actually don't really have a problem with this, it's a big game-ending bomb and I don't know if there are any blue commons I'd take over it. Also it stops all non-flyers from attacking so like Elderscale it kind of protects you too. But I've never been good at evaluating dumb 8 mana rares. Wouldn't take it over Sleep or Talrand's Invocation though
Gilded Lotus - pretty much unplayable, and not even really worth money anymore either, don't get this at all
Sleep - definitely a top 3 blue card, should be higher
Chronomation - as an artifact I'd think it would be higher. Better than most commons so I find it hard to imagine that most packs have 5 cards better than it that happened to fit into whatever colors
Duty-Bound - seems about right, the exalted decks I build are always heavier White (I like War Falcon here)
Krenko's - again, seems right, maybe should be lower, I'm only glad to play this card when I have Arms Dealer or Krenko. Having multiple 1/1's kinda sucks in this format thanks to Cower in Fear and Chandra's Fury. Captains Call isn't very good either but it at least plays nice with other white cards.
Tormented Soul - seems okay, for some black decks this is like a 3rd pick, other black decks may not want it at all
Prey Upon - yeah, this is much better than Tormented Soul, I don't understand why this card comes around so late
Encrust - it's never as good as it looks sadly, still a solid card, I'd take it as a 7th pick
Provocateur - another card that seems better than it actually is...I've had success with it in Green/Blue though. In general it's harder to find good opportunities to use this than you might think.
― frogbs, Saturday, 15 September 2012 21:40 (8 months ago) Permalink
Sleep definitely is that good - if you're behind, it buys you 2 turns, if you're ahead, it can be an auto-win. I understand taking Invocation over it because that card is really always useful, while Sleep isn't the kind of card you want in your opening hand. But every time I've cast it, it's been a bomb.
― frogbs, Saturday, 15 September 2012 21:44 (8 months ago) Permalink
duty-bound to me seems like the best one drop around, but maybe I'm overrating it due to how many wins it's gotten me.
Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker 2.60 is this even playable p1p1? Primal Clay 5.96 can fit in p much every deck? Fervor 4.83 overrated even as a 5th pick?
― iatee, Saturday, 15 September 2012 21:52 (8 months ago) Permalink
I think Chronomaton is a better one drop - Duty Bound is probably one of the best but one-drops generally aren't very good in Limited. I'm sure it's good in B/anything but in general my exalted decks always skew heavy white.
On the other three there, I've tried and failed to make Bolas ever work, so yeah. For Clay, 6th seems alright...it fits into any deck yes but you're either overpaying for Centaur Corsair or you are for Wind Drake, and the Wall option isn't exactly earth-shattering either. I pick 'em up and I'm okay playing them but in general it's not very good. Fervor I've never seen played period so I can't really say, my guess is it's only good if you don't have 3 drops
― frogbs, Saturday, 15 September 2012 22:04 (8 months ago) Permalink
the one that really confuses me is this - Scorpion is a top black common, outside of Murder obviously
Rise from the Grave 4.80Giant Scorpion 4.95
the rares really skew this in a weird way. So many basically unplayable rares like Faith's Reward, Hamletback, Phylatchery Lich, etc. are being pegged as 4th-5th picks
― frogbs, Saturday, 15 September 2012 22:06 (8 months ago) Permalink
hamletback seems playable imo. lich I would play if I was running 66%+ black w/ 4+ artifacts.
― iatee, Saturday, 15 September 2012 22:08 (8 months ago) Permalink
i dunno how many drafts will have even one deck that fits that description. outside of some uncommons it's tough to wind up with 4 playable artifacts
Hamletback has always been disappointing. Gets shut down by a lot, costs too much in a color that really tries to be fast, and it's in a set with a lot of common token producers. I've played it and I've seen it balloon up to like a 20/20 or so but it never wins me any games the way a Stormtide would. I usually side it out.
― frogbs, Saturday, 15 September 2012 22:14 (8 months ago) Permalink
hamletback is terrible its probably the second worst red rare tbh. its basically 7 mana to do nothing
bolas is a p sweet p1p1 since you can definitely build around it and its certainly a huge bomb - ive drafted bolas 4 times and the only time i didnt do well was when i was passed him p2p2 and had been drafting a much more aggressive red/black deck built around arms dealer and even then i managed to go 2-2 in matches and like 5-4 in games.
ive made fervor work in a nearly mono-red g/r aggro deck but it was still a terrible option tbh and i probably shouldnt have played it.
i dont think sleep is very good and i really liked u/x tempo decks in M13. i guess i just agree w/the common wisdom that achieves too little when you're behind and doesn't do enough when you're ahead esp because my blue decks tend not to have that much trouble getting through as is.
― Lamp, Saturday, 15 September 2012 22:25 (8 months ago) Permalink
yeah I guess for 7 mana you want more than 'be a really big creature'
you got time to practice draft? prob the only opportunity I'll have to steal gf's comp this week.
― iatee, Saturday, 15 September 2012 22:28 (8 months ago) Permalink
I got jace, talrand and his invocation, quirion, sands and 3 mind sculpts in a fake draft
I want to play that deck :(
― iatee, Saturday, 15 September 2012 22:30 (8 months ago) Permalink
the problem I always have w/ Bolas is it's 3 colors. I like splashing a color and playing Gem of Becoming but that's hard to pull off.
I dunno why you guys are having such bad experiences w/ Sleep. If you're going flying kill it stalls a couple turns so you can win the race, if you've got ground creatures they're all basically unblockable for two turns.
― frogbs, Saturday, 15 September 2012 22:32 (8 months ago) Permalink
xp that reminds me of a draft I did where a guy went Turn 2 Mind Sculpt, Turn 3 Mind Sculpt, Turn 4 double Mind Sculpt. I was blown away.
― frogbs, Saturday, 15 September 2012 22:33 (8 months ago) Permalink
my desire to play a mill deck is so strong that I am gonna inevitably draft a shitty blue deck w/ two mind sculpts irl
― iatee, Saturday, 15 September 2012 22:34 (8 months ago) Permalink
mind sculpt decks are so bad, i have lost with a 'nut draw' of t2 mind sculpt, t3 mind sculpt, t4 archaeomancer and it wasn't particularly close. you need like 5+ for it to work
― ciderpress, Saturday, 15 September 2012 22:51 (8 months ago) Permalink
The thing is the two best mill cards are Sands and Jace and they don't really need any support. Mill decks in Limited are always flukes - nobody takes the key common, whatever it is, you just need a lot of them to be opened for it to work, so you're really going against odds. Curse of the Bloody Tome would only work if you got like, six of them; you get a 1 in 8 chance of pulling one in each pack, so even if you get every single one at the table, you likely won't have enough.
― frogbs, Saturday, 15 September 2012 23:16 (8 months ago) Permalink
sorry in the middle of laundry and then im going out
I dunno why you guys are having such bad experiences w/ Sleep.
ive only had one game where it was actively bad and even then i bought me at least an extra draw step, its more that i rarely want one and so consequently tend not to draft it. i like p much every blue uncommon except courtly over it and there are at least two blue commons - unsummon and tern - that i take over it
― Lamp, Saturday, 15 September 2012 23:20 (8 months ago) Permalink
yeah I have to go to parties w/ grad students tonight, it's tragic I would much rather keep pretend drafting and drink at home
― iatee, Saturday, 15 September 2012 23:26 (8 months ago) Permalink
the only uncommon I'd take over it is Talrand's Invocation, I dunno maybe I've just won so many unwinnable games with that card that I'm overvaluing it? but taking it over Unsummon seems just wrong.
― frogbs, Saturday, 15 September 2012 23:35 (8 months ago) Permalink
you'd take it over fog bank?
― iatee, Saturday, 15 September 2012 23:36 (8 months ago) Permalink
― frogbs, Saturday, 15 September 2012 23:37 (8 months ago) Permalink
sleep is for beatdown decks that aren't heavy on fliers, which usually means UG or maybe UR if you have a lot of flunkies etc. it's decent in other situations but not amazing
― ciderpress, Saturday, 15 September 2012 23:41 (8 months ago) Permalink
i guess its also a way for your welkin terns to race centaur coursers in a fliers deck
― ciderpress, Saturday, 15 September 2012 23:42 (8 months ago) Permalink
it just seems too context dependent to be a sure thing early pick
― iatee, Saturday, 15 September 2012 23:44 (8 months ago) Permalink
like you're never gonna be bummed about drawing fog bank or talrand's in your first 7
― iatee, Saturday, 15 September 2012 23:45 (8 months ago) Permalink
Yeah and I do admit. Talrand's better b/c you always want that, Fog Bank sometimes just isn't relevant for a while but you can at least fit it as your 2-drop. Sleep I like because it turns a lot of losing situations into surprise wins when you're totally outclassed on the board and gives you two extra turns to race in a flyer deck (I also like Downpour more than most). That said I never had to choose between those three uncommons but I do think all three are better than any of blue's commons.
― frogbs, Saturday, 15 September 2012 23:48 (8 months ago) Permalink
like I had one game where I had a Welkin Tern, two Attended Knights w/ Soldier tokens, and maybe one other guy out while my opponent was playing Deadly Recluses and big green dudes, Sleep can totally win you a game like that, that you couldn't win otherwise
― frogbs, Saturday, 15 September 2012 23:49 (8 months ago) Permalink
yeah but I think you're putting too much weight on those miracle games and not enough weight on the many other times when it was just another card in your hand
― iatee, Saturday, 15 September 2012 23:56 (8 months ago) Permalink
perhaps - but it always seems to be a card I wish I had/hoped my opponent didn't
anyway, what do you guys think about Mwonvuli Beast Tracker? I've been quite underwhelmed with it
― frogbs, Sunday, 16 September 2012 01:28 (8 months ago) Permalink
i only take it if i have silklash spider, vampire nighthawk, or xathrid gorgon. in my experience the common spiders and slimes aren't reason enough to play it over a better creature
― ciderpress, Sunday, 16 September 2012 02:07 (8 months ago) Permalink
I loved Sleep in M10 and M11, but something about this format made it worse. Control decks seem more viable in this set and it's terrible for them, basically just Fog. And in an aggressive deck, I've sometimes found myself trading off creatures and losing them to removal, in which case Sleep is a horrible topdeck. Still a fairly high pick for blue, but not for every deck.
― Vinnie, Sunday, 16 September 2012 23:28 (8 months ago) Permalink
frogbs - Sleep buys you one turn if you use it defensively or if you have flyers and are racing ground durdles, not two turns. It's good if you have a couple of 3/3s that wouldn't ordinarily get through and you can suddenly represent 10+ damage out of nowhere, but in almost every other situation it's a four-mana fog. The upside is good enough that I agree I would take it over most (all?) blue commons, but I'm not sure it's better than Fog Bank or Switcheroo. If I took it early in pack one I'd only be about 70% to even end up maindecking it, since so many blue decks end up pretty controllish.
― webber, Monday, 17 September 2012 04:16 (8 months ago) Permalink
I guess what Vinnie said
yeah sorry I mindboggled myself, yes I suppose it's a glorified Fog in some cases but even in that case it gives you one free whack at your opponent, and if two wins you the game then it gives you that. I guess if everyone thinks I'm overrating it I'll just assume that maybe it's not as good as I'm saying, just know it's the card I wish I had a LOT, and also the one blue uncommon I'm usually afraid of my opponent having (outside of a turn 4-5 Talrand's Summoning which always sucks)
― frogbs, Monday, 17 September 2012 04:21 (8 months ago) Permalink
some guy just spoiled almost the entire RTR set
first impressions:-lots of big clunky creatures and spells at common/uncommon, plus good defensive creatures in every color. will probably be the slowest format since Rise of the Eldrazi. this is awesome.-only a few hard removal spells at common (and i'm even counting the 5 damage red spell which doesn't kill some of the green creatures). i can see the ground getting gummed up pretty regularly. evasion and tricks for breaking board stalls will be pretty important.-playing rakdos is going to require some serious tightrope walking - the raw power is there on the unleash guys but you're playing an aggro strategy in a good control set and it'll be real hard to beat something like that 3/4 hexproof green guy.-multicolor-ness isn't played up quite as much as in the original ravnica block. i think 2-color decks will be doable here, whereas old ravnica pretty much required you to be 3 to get enough good spells.
― ciderpress, Monday, 17 September 2012 15:32 (8 months ago) Permalink
vitu-ghazi guildmage seems like an absurd bomb for an uncommon
― ciderpress, Monday, 17 September 2012 15:41 (8 months ago) Permalink
Wow @ the one mana unleash that's R/B hybrid. Surely a red 2/2 can't block for one is going to get played. Between that and Ash Zealot (and Thundermaw, I guess) it looks like red may be relevant again?
― frogbs, Monday, 17 September 2012 16:53 (8 months ago) Permalink
BTW I know this has been spoiled for a while but I feel like Cyclonic Rift has the potential to be nuts, Delver/Snapcaster is still going to be a thing so a good tempo card with the option of a late-game blowout seems good to me.
In general I think there are probably more good rares than we've ever gotten (seriously, Apocalypse is the last set I can remember with such a high % of playable rares), but saturation of this set is going to tank a lot of them to lower prices than everyone is expecting. Shocklands already down to $12 and dropping.
― frogbs, Monday, 17 September 2012 16:58 (8 months ago) Permalink
yep i expect all the good rares to be down to $5 after a month barring a product shortage. there's just too many for them to all hold price
― ciderpress, Monday, 17 September 2012 17:04 (8 months ago) Permalink
Tavern Swindler 1BCreature - Human RogueT, Pay 3 life: Flip a coin. If you win the flip, you gain 6 life.2/2
I can't explain why but I'm so glad this card exists.
Also I'm getting the same impression as you cider, this format is going to be slow and I'm guessing will be about developing small advantages over time, with the exception of Rakdos which seems like it gets some great aggro cards. I'm really curious to see how Izzet plays out here.
― frogbs, Monday, 17 September 2012 17:05 (8 months ago) Permalink
I like how this is an active thread now
― iatee, Monday, 17 September 2012 17:13 (8 months ago) Permalink
yeah but its mainly just me and frogbs nerding out constantly and scaring away the people who don't draft 3 times a week
― ciderpress, Monday, 17 September 2012 17:15 (8 months ago) Permalink
I have committed to drafting once a week but nerding out 7 nights.
does anybody actually cube draft? I kinda wanna
― iatee, Monday, 17 September 2012 17:17 (8 months ago) Permalink
I like the idea that there can be some ultimate perfect drafting set that someone builds
― iatee, Monday, 17 September 2012 17:19 (8 months ago) Permalink
I would like to be able to play magic casually in real life with people who aren't neckbeardy gamestore teens without investing much money. I think this means I should make a friend and then buy some crads. The friend part is the hard one.
― the physical impossibility of sb in the mind of someone fping (silby), Monday, 17 September 2012 17:21 (8 months ago) Permalink
i've only done cube on magic online, and i didn't really like it. i think it varies a lot depending on whats in the cube though, and would definitely be more fun irl.
― ciderpress, Monday, 17 September 2012 17:24 (8 months ago) Permalink
love reading this thread and only barely understanding what's going on.
― This cad needs a cordial introduction to Eugene of Oxbow. (forksclovetofu), Monday, 17 September 2012 18:00 (8 months ago) Permalink
I love Cube draft and even have my own Cube assembled, though I'm missing a lot of cards I'd want to add. Took waaaaay more time to make than I originally thought it would, and I've only been able to draft with it like five times over four years. The problem is my friends and I draft so rarely, we usually just want to draft the latest set when we hang out.
― Vinnie, Monday, 17 September 2012 20:12 (8 months ago) Permalink
"Power cube" drafts rule, I'm sure there are other great cube ideas out there, but just taking the best 300 cards then adding in 200 cards to compliment them (like a good assortment of creatures like Jackal Pup, Pumpknights, etc. to make creature-based strategies work) is great. I know you only need 360 to draft but I like when the same cards don't show up every time.
I've heard of really fun all-common cubes, awful-rare cubs, or "nostalgia cubes" which focus on Mirage/Tempest/Urza's blocks...possibilities are endless
― frogbs, Monday, 17 September 2012 20:22 (8 months ago) Permalink
multicolor-ness isn't played up quite as much as in the original ravnica block. i think 2-color decks will be doable here, whereas old ravnica pretty much required you to be 3 to get enough good spells.
i wasn't around for the original ravnica, but rav-rav-rav drafting favoured two-colour strategies, didn't it? weren't dimir mill and selesnya tokens like the two best archetypes? i'm sure when we're drafting full block people will gravitate more towards three colour decks, if only to get some overlap between rtr and gatecrash.
― webber, Tuesday, 18 September 2012 00:31 (8 months ago) Permalink
yeah you're probably right, i wasn't thinking about that since i've only drafted old ravnica as a full block
― ciderpress, Tuesday, 18 September 2012 01:40 (8 months ago) Permalink
i have to say i was p excited for ravnica but finding out im going to get to put filibuster counters on things just puts the whole set over the top imo
― Lamp, Tuesday, 18 September 2012 04:10 (8 months ago) Permalink
gotta say pretty much every rare in this set intrigues me to some degree, drafting this is going to be incredible
― frogbs, Tuesday, 18 September 2012 13:21 (8 months ago) Permalink
i'm trying to figure out what guild to pick at the prerelease, was originally going to do rakdos and that still looks fun but azorius looks pretty strong now that i've seen all the cards and realized there's only one common outside of UW that can block a 2/2 flier
― ciderpress, Tuesday, 18 September 2012 13:36 (8 months ago) Permalink
actually there's 2 whoops. one is a wall though so no big deal
― ciderpress, Tuesday, 18 September 2012 13:38 (8 months ago) Permalink
really annoyed. drafted prob my best deck yet tonight (v. fast red/black) but lost the first match 1-2 because of poor play (2-0 the other two. didn't place)
the first poor play was reverberating a turn to slag into a 1/6 creature. without thinking about the numbers. prob could have won w/ if I held on to it.
third game I held onto a 1 land hand cause the rest was too good. just say no.
― iatee, Wednesday, 19 September 2012 03:01 (8 months ago) Permalink
wait so you used 2 cards to kill a butt-mode primal clay? that does seem pretty loose unless your deck is all 1-toughness guys
there are keepable 1-land hands but you really have to be 1) on the draw and 2) have a plan for winning the game off of ~2 lands
― ciderpress, Wednesday, 19 September 2012 03:29 (8 months ago) Permalink
like if you have any creature with 2+ toughness you just let them block and then slag it for the rest
― ciderpress, Wednesday, 19 September 2012 03:30 (8 months ago) Permalink
no he was slagging me, I had some creatures out and he only had the wall, so I figured I'd get rid of it in response
― iatee, Wednesday, 19 September 2012 03:32 (8 months ago) Permalink
― ciderpress, Wednesday, 19 September 2012 03:35 (8 months ago) Permalink
ya and he was a srs player so there was no 'oh wait nvm'
my deck:ring of valkascathedral of warcleaver riotreverberatevolcanic geyserfurnace whelpsearing spearreckless brutevolcanic strength mogg flunkiescrimsom muckwaderkrenko's command2x goblin arsonist giant scorpion veilborn ghoul2x duty bound deadduskmantle prowlerservant of nefaroxdark favorravenous ratsliliana's shadebloodhunter bats
― iatee, Wednesday, 19 September 2012 03:39 (8 months ago) Permalink
p1p1 was slumbering dragon but I ended up leaving it out
― iatee, Wednesday, 19 September 2012 03:41 (8 months ago) Permalink
veilborn ghoul is pretty marginal and i'm not sure about cleaver riot there but looks good otherwise
― ciderpress, Wednesday, 19 September 2012 04:09 (8 months ago) Permalink
mebbe I shoulda played a second liliana's shade instead? cleavers worked great tho
― iatee, Wednesday, 19 September 2012 04:11 (8 months ago) Permalink
slumbering dragon actually played pretty well the times I had it. they only get 4 attacks in before it activates so they need to save a removal spell. if they don't have one, it'll basically stop them from attacking at all. plus it plays every nice with ring of valkas. i'd do it!! also cider's right, Ghoul is really not very good, that "can't block" clause really nerfs it
― frogbs, Wednesday, 19 September 2012 04:13 (8 months ago) Permalink
cleaver is great when you're even or ahead but it can't win from behind quite as well as overrun did. i like it best in RG decks wehre you can put your 10 power on the board in larger chunks (3/3s and such) so they have to chump block instead of just having to trade
― ciderpress, Wednesday, 19 September 2012 04:18 (8 months ago) Permalink
I was usually ahead, it was often my game finisher along w/ volcanic geyser
― iatee, Wednesday, 19 September 2012 04:20 (8 months ago) Permalink
also crimson muckwader is just too good in a deck like this
― iatee, Wednesday, 19 September 2012 04:22 (8 months ago) Permalink
ghoul is ok w/double rummaging goblin i think
prowler is p bad, way worse than shade. its two abilities - haste and exalted - arent really that useful to you esp w/the red ring so youre mostly overpaying for a 2/2. i guess prowler has the advantage of not being double black. maindeck volcanic strength (+2/+2 and mtnwalk right?) seems not great, youd def take another favor over it i think. might cut rats for dragon considering you have the ring but both are p marginal in your deck. id be looking to cut cleaver riot and reverberate as well but it depends on what your sb looks like, reverberate only has a few targets in your deck but i can see it being really effective against blue and black decks for you so maybe its worht a slot.
― Lamp, Wednesday, 19 September 2012 05:23 (8 months ago) Permalink
really hate slumbering dragon. it's a fog bank with suspend 4. i mean not the worst or anything (esp with red ring) but it is not powerful enough for p1p1; i'd take basically any playable uncommon over it.
― webber, Wednesday, 19 September 2012 05:31 (8 months ago) Permalink
it's not really like Fog Bank, because it doesn't just block a creature when it activates, it blocks it, kills it, then swings for 8. I've played against people who drop it turn 1 and it really hampers your offense, you basically have to wait for a removal spell. All I can say is it was better than it looked. I can see p1p1 in a weak pack (but yes there are plenty of uncommons I'd take over it)
― frogbs, Wednesday, 19 September 2012 12:42 (8 months ago) Permalink
I found reverberate to be more useful than I expected. I spent a long time deciding between that and a searing spear, went w/ that against my better judgment. (also coulda sworn I drafted 2 spears but couldn't find the other.) and I'd have cut volcanic strength for another favor, I just didn't have one. most of the rest of my sb was clunky creatures.
and yeah dragons was p1p1 in a weak pack.
rules q: reverberating cleaver riot = doesn't really make things 4x, right?
― iatee, Wednesday, 19 September 2012 13:21 (8 months ago) Permalink
(deciding as draft picks, I mean)
― iatee, Wednesday, 19 September 2012 13:22 (8 months ago) Permalink
spear definitely better than reverb
reverb is better than a mediocre creature but not better than removal or the good creatures like bladetusk boar, mogg flunkies etc
― ciderpress, Wednesday, 19 September 2012 13:27 (8 months ago) Permalink
and yeah giving your guys double strike twice makes them end up with double strike, theres no such thing as quadruple strike
― ciderpress, Wednesday, 19 September 2012 13:28 (8 months ago) Permalink
I agree that Reverberate is strangely useful but I wouldn't take it over Spear. The problem with Reverberate is that you have to keep mana open for it which red doesn't really like to do. Spear is the kind of effect you're going to want with Reverberate like 75% of the time so just take it.
and no, that won't make it 4x, no such thing as Quad Strike (yet)
― frogbs, Wednesday, 19 September 2012 13:28 (8 months ago) Permalink
my early guess at ranking the colors in the new set is:redgreenblueblackwhite
white's power at common seems to rely entirely on the instant speed populate spells, which means you have to be playing green or you're not always getting your card's worth (or your mana's worth in the case of the removal one). red has the best ability to curve out with efficient threats and has the best removal at common with 2 burn spells that both also hit players.
― ciderpress, Wednesday, 19 September 2012 13:38 (8 months ago) Permalink
could I get a link for the setlist?
― iatee, Wednesday, 19 September 2012 13:41 (8 months ago) Permalink
isn't it better to just rank the guilds? I doubt anyone's going to be going Green/Blue, for instance.
the populate mechanic really interests me for constructed, especially with Ratchet Boomb and Vapor Snag going out. Vitu-Ghazi Guildmage seems pretty incredible eh?
iatee - http://mtgsalvation.com/return-to-ravnica-spoiler.html
― frogbs, Wednesday, 19 September 2012 13:43 (8 months ago) Permalink
You can see actual card images here:
― Moodles, Wednesday, 19 September 2012 13:46 (8 months ago) Permalink
yeah i was freaking out over vitu-ghazi guildmage upthread, would be surprised if its not the best uncommon in the set
populate seems like a super swingy mechanic, like miracle-level swingy, but it won't be quite as obvious as miracles were. like, if you have a centaur token out then suddenly you're playing with a bunch of wolfir avengers in your deck, but if you don't then a bunch of your cards suck
― ciderpress, Wednesday, 19 September 2012 13:48 (8 months ago) Permalink
Eyes in the Skies has got to be one of the best commons in the set, no?
― frogbs, Wednesday, 19 September 2012 13:53 (8 months ago) Permalink
i dunno about best in set, its in the top 25% for sure though
― ciderpress, Wednesday, 19 September 2012 13:58 (8 months ago) Permalink
I'd have cut volcanic strength for another favor, I just didn't have one. most of the rest of my sb was clunky creatures.
p much any red creature is better than volcanic strength in your deck since a) you're relying on cleaver riot as one of your big finishers and that wants as many creatures in play as possible to get maximum effect b) you have the red ring allowing you to turn most red creatures into threats, which your deck lacks and c) the low threat density and need to swarm already leaves you really vulnerable to removal, auras just play into your decks weaknesses
i think strength is really, really good for you when you can turn on the evasion since thats something you're deck really wants but otherwise you'd run like canyon minotaur over it even and i cant think of red creature worse than that
― Lamp, Wednesday, 19 September 2012 14:52 (8 months ago) Permalink
i havent really spent much time looking at the spoilers but i think u/w is probably the best draft color rn if you dont consider rares? detain seems super strong, the other color combos dont have that many great ways of dealing w/fliers and there are a lot of really effective ways to interact w/combat at instant speed. the one mana white combat trick that gives first strike + lifelink seems like it will just be a blowout until people learn to play around it.
― Lamp, Wednesday, 19 September 2012 14:59 (8 months ago) Permalink
Doesn't red have a (basically unplayable) common like this in M13? Without the lifelink though.
The guilds I'm most curious about are Izzet and Golgari. Izzet because some of the overload spells seem super powerful. There's one that gives a creature +1/+0 and unblockable, one that taps an opponent's creature, and one that gives them -2/-0 and forces them to attack. That's THREE ways to get your whole team through for an alpha strike. Golgari seems good because nearly all the scavenge creaturs are solid.
― frogbs, Wednesday, 19 September 2012 15:07 (8 months ago) Permalink
I don't really feel comfortable naming one guild as the best because I'm sure R&D worked really hard to ensure they were all on roughly equal footing. They're aware that this set is possibly going to get drafted more than any other set in history.
― frogbs, Wednesday, 19 September 2012 15:08 (8 months ago) Permalink
p much any red creature is better than volcanic strength in your deck since a) you're relying on cleaver riot as one of your big finishers and that wants as many creatures in play as possible to get maximum effect b) you have the red ring allowing you to turn most red creatures into threats, which your deck lacks and c) the low threat density and need to swarm already leaves you really vulnerable to removal, auras just play into your decks weaknesses
i think strength is really, really good for you when you can turn on the evasion since thats something you're deck really wants but otherwise you'd run like canyon minotaur over it even and i cant think of red creature worse than that
this is coming from a small sample set (~10 games) but I found it to be pretty good due to the quantity of 1 and 2 drops I was playing - paired w/ a 1 one drop if I don't have a 2 drop, otherwise on turn 3, as I'd often have an opening there (only two 3 drops). like I'm sure the ring would win me more games w/ a 100 game sample set but volcanic def did in these 10.
― iatee, Wednesday, 19 September 2012 15:14 (8 months ago) Permalink
no wait I count 3
― iatee, Wednesday, 19 September 2012 15:20 (8 months ago) Permalink
this guy is pretty much the only person i trust to have an accurate judgment of limited formats early on, since he actually uses aggregated statistics instead of just trial and error. he's been completely spot on about innistrad, AVR, and M13 limited so far, and has some interesting looks at a few older formats too.
― ciderpress, Wednesday, 19 September 2012 15:29 (8 months ago) Permalink
well your one and two drops arent great targets for strength is part of the problem, like ok you've just invested four mana and card and a half in making a centaur courser
its not really about ring vs. strength so much as random red creature vs. strength and against any non-red opponent i just cant see strength being better than like, dragon hatchling for you.
Doesn't red have a (basically unplayable) common like this in M13?
haha ive totally owned so many people with kindled fury
― Lamp, Wednesday, 19 September 2012 15:34 (8 months ago) Permalink
a centaur courser that's attacking turn two! I think I have a frogbs-esque-sleep relation to the card / boost enchantments in general.
― iatee, Wednesday, 19 September 2012 15:43 (8 months ago) Permalink
also I am for more aggregated statistical takes being posted itt
Creature enchantments are kind of shitty on principle, though they've been getting better/less prone to card disadvantage lately. I do like Tricks of the Trade a lot because it straight up gives your opponent a "deal with me or lose" problem and works well with Scroll Thief. Mark of the Vampire can swing games so far in one direction that it's worth risking the surprise Unsummon.
As for Volcanic Strength, I only really like it if your opponent is playing Mountains (which can be insane) or on something like a Tormented Soul. The Rings are obviously slower but IMO are better.
― frogbs, Wednesday, 19 September 2012 15:50 (8 months ago) Permalink
i think creature enchantments are actually legitimate these days now that they've sped up limited by a couple turns and tempo is more important. if you play Mark of the Vampire on a random 2/2 and attack, and they kill it with Turn to Slag next turn, you still got a 8 point life swing plus forced their hand on how they use their removal, which is often going to add up to a card's worth of value despite the '2-for-1' on the surface.
― ciderpress, Wednesday, 19 September 2012 15:59 (8 months ago) Permalink
yeah in my deck an early game volcanic was the equivalent of a burn spell, even if they have removal it's gonna have done some damage
― iatee, Wednesday, 19 September 2012 16:03 (8 months ago) Permalink
like i try not to even think about 'card advantage' anymore in the traditional sense - valuing cards on a discrete continuum rather than a continuous one seems antiquated, and it doesn't consider tempo which is really fucking important in modern magic
― ciderpress, Wednesday, 19 September 2012 16:07 (8 months ago) Permalink
all the creature enchants are p good used correctly (wellll probably not divine favor) i guess im arguing iatee isnt really making correct use of volcanic strength in his deck. i have to admit tho that i really like tricks on reckless brute and have cast this way more than i should have during M13...
i always like the ars arcanum guys overviews but the thing he misses is how the metagame esp online does change - by the end of M13 i was actively looking to go U/R not because i was the best deck but because it was the most powerful deck that was consistently open
― Lamp, Wednesday, 19 September 2012 16:09 (8 months ago) Permalink
he did do a second AVR article because the metagame swung pretty wildly once people realized that U/G had all the best commons. in general every format has cards that are better than they look and cards that are worse, and even the best limited pros don't seem to figure them out until 3-4 weeks into the set.
― frogbs, Wednesday, 19 September 2012 16:21 (8 months ago) Permalink
― This cad needs a cordial introduction to Eugene of Oxbow. (forksclovetofu), Thursday, 20 September 2012 19:24 (7 months ago) Permalink
The plans are working. Hasbro, which bought Wizards of the Coast for $325 million in 1999, claimed the volume of card sales doubled between 2008 and 2011 with the player base growing 80 percent to 12 million
lotsa people @ the store I go to seem to have gotten back recently.
they should make duels of the planeswalkers free.
― iatee, Friday, 21 September 2012 00:44 (7 months ago) Permalink
I've been having a great time the past two days on mtgo - I created a new account and set myself a challenge to invest nothing and trade up from the starting cards, and it's super addictive to see how far you can get. I ended up with a WB control deck that was doubling as a shop window and it was awesome getting to play with stuff like Wurmcoil and Hero of Bladehold as they passed through inventory. Moodles - play yr Odric deck?
― Gravel Puzzleworth, Friday, 21 September 2012 11:41 (7 months ago) Permalink
like i try not to even think about 'card advantage' anymore in the traditional sense - valuing cards on a discrete continuum rather than a continuous one seems antiquated, and it doesn't consider tempo which is really fucking important in modern magic― ciderpress, Wednesday, September 19, 2012 4:07 PM (2 days ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalinkall the creature enchants are p good used correctly (wellll probably not divine favor) i guess im arguing iatee isnt really making correct use of volcanic strength in his deck. i have to admit tho that i really like tricks on reckless brute and have cast this way more than i should have during M13...
This idea is v.v. interesting to me - do you guys think a straight-up enchant creature will ever see constructed play? Not counting stuff like rancor which doesn't have the 2-for-1 disadvantage, or the era when Eldrazi Conscription got cheated into play - I'm thinking more of like some 2mana MotVampire just getting thrown on a gravecrawler or whatever. It seems like it's way overdue, maybe it would have to be super rare so as not to mess up limited.
― Gravel Puzzleworth, Friday, 21 September 2012 11:45 (7 months ago) Permalink
If I recall correctly Armadillo Cloak saw some play, didn't it? Also, Moldervine Cloak was played in a few decks and you can definitely get 2-for-1'd there.
My favorite creature enchantment for standard was Elephant Guide, as it was kind of like Rancor, just a big bomb-ass creature enchantment that didn't really hurt you if it got removed.
― frogbs, Friday, 21 September 2012 12:40 (7 months ago) Permalink
Spectral Flight has seen some play recently in Standard and there's no card advantage there at all. Except there's not really any risk either, since it always got slapped on a Hexproof creature like Invisible Stalker or Geist of Saint Traft. Think of it as equipment that dodges Divine Offering.
― Vinnie, Friday, 21 September 2012 13:18 (7 months ago) Permalink
Spectral Flight has seen play within the past few months! if that doesn't count then i don't know what does
― ciderpress, Friday, 21 September 2012 13:18 (7 months ago) Permalink
And though I kind of hate Hexproof, it's interesting that there was finally an environment where a very run-of-the-mill Aura had a place.
― Vinnie, Friday, 21 September 2012 13:26 (7 months ago) Permalink
Moodles - play yr Odric deck?
Yah, same username on MTGO. Although you may have to face the werewolf pack that Ciderpress has been helping me get set up.
Would love to get some trading tips. It's a topic that I don't really have a feel for in MTGO. Not sure how to approach it.
― Moodles, Friday, 21 September 2012 13:58 (7 months ago) Permalink
I didn't know people played that in Standard! I thought people were just doing Runchanter's Pike/Sword of Whatever. I played a dude in draft who had Geist + Spectral Flight and got my ass beat. No way around that.
By the way, I checked my online collection and I now have 7 Sands of Deliriums over ~15 drafts. I'm getting a lot of them passed to me. I can see why people don't like the card - if you draft around it, you'll wind up with some crappy U/W deck that can't win without it, and if you don't, you're sometimes forced to choose between mill and playing creatures. Either way this card has won me a lot of games where I was in terrible shape otherwise or in danger of losing a race. I think I was actually right about this card!
― frogbs, Friday, 21 September 2012 14:32 (7 months ago) Permalink
i had another sands failure the other night, this time taking it 2nd pack after i was already drafting a control deck. seems like every time i have it i either draw it when i'm already winning with a harbor bandit, or topdeck it when i'm behind on board and need another blocker. i've had it 5 or 6 times now, all in decent controlling decks, and haven't won a draft with it yet.
xathrid gorgon on the other hand, i have like 7 or 8 of on mtgo and it's been awesome every time.
― ciderpress, Friday, 21 September 2012 14:37 (7 months ago) Permalink
that is strange; for me I seem to get it a lot when I'm in deadlocked board positions or can play a game of attrition. even getting it in your opener isn't bad. it affects the game in an odd way for both players but I've certainly won my fair share with this card. maybe I'm just lucky.
Gorgon is incredible too of course, though it's led to quite a few games that really just game down to getting decked
― frogbs, Friday, 21 September 2012 14:44 (7 months ago) Permalink
i pretty much always have harbor bandit in my draft decks so that's not been an issue
― ciderpress, Friday, 21 September 2012 14:48 (7 months ago) Permalink
anyone wanna play a quick EDH game on cockatrice?
― Mordy, Friday, 21 September 2012 17:54 (7 months ago) Permalink
so i played my first ptq on saturday... got passed a truly brutal pool so only managed to go 4-2 drop. not sure i built my deck optimally but im p disappointed that i didnt have even an average pool to build w/ since i feel like i know this format really well
― Lamp, Sunday, 23 September 2012 21:18 (7 months ago) Permalink
what did your deck look like?
― iatee, Sunday, 23 September 2012 21:19 (7 months ago) Permalink
1 duty-bound dead1 crippling blight1 knight of glory1 elvish visionary1 flinthoof boar1 timberpack wolf1 sign in blood 1 searing spear1 titantic growth 1 ring of xathrid1 ring of kalonia2 servant of nefarox1 rummaging goblin 1 cower in fear 1 flames of the firebrand2 bloodhunter bat1 shimian specter 1 spiked baloth 1 silklash spider 1 garruk's packleader 1 essence drain1 hamletback goliath
― Lamp, Sunday, 23 September 2012 21:31 (7 months ago) Permalink
just a really terrible jund midrange deck - my rare pool was battle of wits, the goliath, silklash spider, specter, dragonskull summit and door to nothingness. best uncommon was flames and i had a fog bank. i probably couldve built a very slow u/r/b deck with the fog bank two wall of fires and a bunch of card draw and counterspells hoping basically to win via tricks of the trade on a fire elemental or goliath. i wouldve been playing worse cards but the deck has a stronger gameplan than the one i built since it gave me more outs to all the midrange-y bomb-heavy decks i played against esp in the X-1 bracket
― Lamp, Sunday, 23 September 2012 21:37 (7 months ago) Permalink
when did you start going green?
― iatee, Sunday, 23 September 2012 23:28 (7 months ago) Permalink
trying to figure out something i can build for standard without dropping $100+ on new cards right away. i'm wondering if mono-red will be viable for the first month or so like it often is; Ash Zealot is one of the few rares in the new set that seems reasonably priced, and the rest of the deck would be all common/uncommons
i wanted to port over the angel of glory's rise deck from block since i suspect there will be a shitload of zombies being played early on, but the manabase for that deck is just so terrible, there's no way to trim it down to 3 colors without losing an important card
― ciderpress, Monday, 24 September 2012 15:34 (7 months ago) Permalink
I would have thought zombies was the budget deck? I don't pay attention to card prices though, so apologies if Gravecrawler is suddenly a $50 card.
― webber, Monday, 24 September 2012 23:33 (7 months ago) Permalink
gravecrawler is 10, geralf's messenger is 10, falkenrath aristocrat is 15, blood crypt will be at least 10 at the start, it's not looking like much of a budget deck anymore even if you don't run bonfires.
― ciderpress, Tuesday, 25 September 2012 02:31 (7 months ago) Permalink
i think junk tokens might be a decent cheap deck the most important cards are almost all uncommons and even the mythics its running are reasonable esp on modo. the real qn is how competitive tokens will be in this environment i guess
― Lamp, Tuesday, 25 September 2012 04:59 (7 months ago) Permalink
yeah i dont mind buying tons of shit on modo since its cheaper and its trivial to sell it back whenever i need the $ again, buying new cards irl is the painful bit ive got an idea for a bant ramp/control deck that i'd like to test out, im not sure it can beat a hardcore control deck with actual counterspells but if the meta has a lot of midrange then it might crush.
― ciderpress, Tuesday, 25 September 2012 05:14 (7 months ago) Permalink
i feel like control really lacks the tools it needs rn esp against stuff like jund zombies or bant midrange variants? theres just too much speed and card advantage in those decks for control to deal w/effectively
― Lamp, Tuesday, 25 September 2012 05:21 (7 months ago) Permalink
yeah i am really missing celestial purge right now. there are just no cards that deal with geralf's messenger or falkenrath aristocrat the turn they come down
― ciderpress, Tuesday, 25 September 2012 13:24 (7 months ago) Permalink
cider, i'm probably gonna slap together a cheap little nivmagus elemental deck post rotation. the only thing that costs money there are the fancy-lands. basically, delver/elemental/guttersnipe, then jam the rest with dinky little cantrips. i'm not much for preordering but will probably grab a playset of elementals hopefully at the prerelease. i think that card has the potential to seriously blow up.
― fennel cartwright, Tuesday, 25 September 2012 17:26 (7 months ago) Permalink
guttersnipe, the passive-aggressive goblin
― ciderpress, Tuesday, 25 September 2012 17:56 (7 months ago) Permalink
wow, I had thought the Elemental was just +2/+2 until end of turn, that's uhhh interesting
― frogbs, Tuesday, 25 September 2012 18:27 (7 months ago) Permalink
this is the ramp shell i was working on on cockatrice last night, from memory:
cantrips:4 Abundant Growth4 Elvish Visionaryramp:4 Farseek4 Dawntreader Elk3 Temporal Mastery (shut up it is a ramp spell)sweepers:4 Devastation Tide3 Supreme Verdictboard control/wincons:4 Thragtusk2 Garruk Relentless2 Angel of Serenity1 Entreat the Angelsland:24 colored land appropriately distributed, plus 1 miser's Kessig Wolf Run to use w/ abundant growth late game
so the gimmick here is that when you cast Devastation Tide you're often returning 1-3 cards worth of cantrips to your hand, letting you dig deeper next turn for another sweeper or win condition. plus it makes a token with Thragtusk, etc etc. meanwhile, your opponent loses their board position each time this happens, even if they've still got all their cards, which should buy you time to convert your mana advantage into a win. i haven't actually tested vs real opponents yet though so it could just be terrible now that there's no Primeval Titan.
― ciderpress, Tuesday, 25 September 2012 18:29 (7 months ago) Permalink
I really like that idea. I always wanted to make a deck that abused Emancipation Angel with Abundant Growth (a seriously good card that doesn't see any play), you don't have Angel in here but I think you could make a similar deck with it.
― frogbs, Tuesday, 25 September 2012 18:30 (7 months ago) Permalink
i wonder if jarad's orders searching up 2 angel of serenity is good enough
if they dont have countermagic, looping angels is practically a soft lock in the lategame
― ciderpress, Tuesday, 25 September 2012 21:05 (7 months ago) Permalink
man, i keep clicking on this thread out of nostalgia and then not being able to understand a word of it.
― have a sandwich or ice cream sandwich (Jordan), Tuesday, 25 September 2012 21:12 (7 months ago) Permalink
don't worry i'm just rambling about cards in the new set that comes out next week
― ciderpress, Tuesday, 25 September 2012 21:14 (7 months ago) Permalink
Got signed up for prerelease on Sunday night. This will be my first sealed event. Any tips on how to approach it?
― Moodles, Tuesday, 25 September 2012 22:33 (7 months ago) Permalink
this prerelease has the gimmick wehre you choose a guild and one of your 6 boosters is a special pack with only cards from that guild's colors. so: make sure you pick a guild you're going to enjoy playing. if you don't know what they're about already, here's their basic strategies:Selesnya (green/white) - dump a bunch of creature tokens onto the board to stall the game out, then keep making guys until you have an overwhelming advantage.Golgari (green/black) - play defense and trade your creatures off early, then recycle stuff from your graveyard to build giant monsters in the late gameRakdos (red/black) - play aggressive creatures and keep swinging for the fences until you win or run out of gasIzzet (blue/red) - control the board with big splashy spell effects that keep the path cleared for your utility creatures to get through for damageAzorius (white/blue) - beat down in the air with fliers while locking down your opponent's best threats or blockers
-because of the guild booster, there's like a 80% chance that your ideal deck is just the 2 colors of your guild, plus a couple powerful cards splashed from a 3rd color. -if you're splashing, it should be for good removal or late-game bombs, not just ordinary creatures, because you'll have games where you don't draw a source for your 3rd color until later in the game and you want the splash card you've been holding in your hand that whole time to still be relevant to the board.-avoid 1/1s or 2/2s without good abilities, because sealed games tend to go long and they get outclassed in the late game.-make sure your curve is decent. in sealed it's more important to play your strongest cards than have a great curve, but you still want to avoid having a lot of cards that cost 5 or more-be proactive. your opponents are going to be mana screwed or color screwed or have bad draws sometimes, it's just how Magic works, and you want your deck to take advantage of this.-40 cards total, 17 lands, no exceptions
― ciderpress, Wednesday, 26 September 2012 03:30 (7 months ago) Permalink
won again tonite w/ this deck
ring of xathrid ring of kaloniacathedral of war
rancorduskdale wurm deadly reclusegarruk's packleaderprey uponspiked baloth x 3mwonvuli beast tracker arbor elf
liliana's shadedark favor x 3crippling blight murder x 2 duty bound deadtormented soulvampire nighthawkbloodhound bats
dnp: phy lichmind rotduress disciple of bolas (well I did but then I swapped it for another baloth)titanic growth fungal sprouting 4th balothvastwood gorger
would u guys have made it differently? not that learning more about m13 limited will help me now
― iatee, Wednesday, 26 September 2012 03:34 (7 months ago) Permalink
i think you have to decide on a plan - like if you're going the soul + multiple favor and exalted route cut most of your green creatures and add disciple + growth for card draw and fungal sprouting to spam blockers and potential swarm strategy. in this case gorger is a better top end than worm since it comes down earlier and blocks essentially the same
if your plan is green midrange draw a card than cut the favors and the soul for the last baloth and i guess the gorger.
either way i think the green ring is really bad since your green creatures mostly already have trample and your good black creatures have evasion. tracker is also p shitty since it cant get you packleader and thats really the only card you care that much about. well i guess nighthawk. i would still rather play something else though. growth + disciple is also really good and should be in any build and i would probably play mind rot in the fast black version of the deck to protect your soul against removal
― Lamp, Wednesday, 26 September 2012 04:02 (7 months ago) Permalink
yeah it played strangely, like half the time it was controlly and the other half it was winning in 4 turns w/ some rancor/favor/ring. I think growth instead of the ring might have been better for those kinda games.
tracker always seemed to be going for recluse.
― iatee, Wednesday, 26 September 2012 04:05 (7 months ago) Permalink
the green ring giving trample actually won me a game tho
― iatee, Wednesday, 26 September 2012 04:06 (7 months ago) Permalink
you can always take a look at the visual spoiler just to have some familiarity with the cards beforehand
otherwise i think ciderpress has it p much right, generally its a good plan to build around your most powerful cards and try to think about how your deck is going to play out - both in cases where you're curving out and drawing well and with more difficult draws - and then think about how you might add or subtract cards to help your deck's plan. generally speaking bombs and removal are the things you want to prioritize in your deck but creatures are really good like if you're choosing between a spell and a a creature, most sealed decks just want the body
― Lamp, Wednesday, 26 September 2012 04:09 (7 months ago) Permalink
its kinda sick how good disciple is in your deck the more i think about it, like rancor just gives so much value, favors, growth, ring so many ways to pump stuff and then just draw a million cards...
id probably have built it like:
6 - CC1: blight, soul, dead, elf, rancor, prey upon6 - CC2: favor (3), recluse, growth, black ring4 - CC3: nighthawk, murder (2), mind rot5 - CC4: shade, bats, sprouting, disciple, baloth1 - CC5: packleader1 - CC6: gorger
― Lamp, Wednesday, 26 September 2012 04:20 (7 months ago) Permalink
yeah I was playing a fun game w/ disciple in it and I used it on something w/ two dark favors that was gonna be killed next turn
― iatee, Wednesday, 26 September 2012 04:22 (7 months ago) Permalink
but I was really scared of drawing it in my first 7 w/ no other creatures and/or when I'd have a slow opening
― iatee, Wednesday, 26 September 2012 04:24 (7 months ago) Permalink
I didn't run into a deck w/ heavy removal, which I think was a big risk w/ the 3 dark removals
― iatee, Wednesday, 26 September 2012 04:27 (7 months ago) Permalink
errr dark favorit's late
w/o looking at it too close, i'd say cutting Discipline for another Baloth is a mistake, I think Baloth is fine but it's kind of underwhelming and Disciple's effect can give you a big advantage for the rest of the game. Baloth just seems right for a different kind of deck, one that'll play Titanic Growth w/o reservation
― frogbs, Wednesday, 26 September 2012 04:57 (7 months ago) Permalink
yeah disciple is quietly one of the top 10 cards in the set imo
― ciderpress, Wednesday, 26 September 2012 13:18 (7 months ago) Permalink
I absolutely love the card Momentous Fall from Beseiged (I think?) so Disciple was immediately a favorite of mine. I'd do like end step Primal Bellow on a Wurmcoil, Fall it for 12 life and 12 cards + the tokens, good times
Have yet to really think of a use for Disciple but there's got to be some way to abuse it
― frogbs, Wednesday, 26 September 2012 13:47 (7 months ago) Permalink
momentous fall was in ROE, if it had been in standard this past year i'd have played it in everything
if there's a midrange grindy rock deck in the new standard, it's probably going to use disciple + thragtusk as its card advantage engine
― ciderpress, Wednesday, 26 September 2012 13:52 (7 months ago) Permalink
hey ciderpress - which guild is best if i'm generally a big fan of white weenie type strategies?
― Mordy, Wednesday, 26 September 2012 13:59 (7 months ago) Permalink
unfortunately, the real white weenie guild is Boros which is in the next set. if you like the 'fast aggro' angle of white weenie then Rakdos is closest to that, but if you like the 'having lots of creatures' angle i'd go Selesnya, since Rakdos doesn't actually have a ton of good creatures and will be relying on burn spells and such to finish people off.
― ciderpress, Wednesday, 26 September 2012 14:18 (7 months ago) Permalink
also obviously Rakdos isn't actually white, if having white cards is the important thing
― ciderpress, Wednesday, 26 September 2012 14:24 (7 months ago) Permalink
nah- fast aggro is the important part
― Mordy, Wednesday, 26 September 2012 14:55 (7 months ago) Permalink
rakdos also looks like the hardest guild to play in this set - the unleash mechanic forces you to make tough choices on turns 2-4 that could seriously backfire without a good read on your opponent's strategy. i think you're always going to want to unleash the 2-power guys to get them to 3 power when you're playing them early in the game, but the 1/1 regenerator and 1/2 deathtouch are a lot trickier since they have serious value as blockers if the game goes long.
― ciderpress, Wednesday, 26 September 2012 15:13 (7 months ago) Permalink
btw, the full set is up on magiccards.info now for browsing/searching/etc:http://magiccards.info/rtr/en.html
― ciderpress, Wednesday, 26 September 2012 15:14 (7 months ago) Permalink
angel of serenity seems awfully expensive for a mythic rare 5/6 flyer w/ a 3x journey to nowhere effect
― Mordy, Wednesday, 26 September 2012 15:36 (7 months ago) Permalink
haha that card is p nuts, way better than just journey to nowhere effect
― Lamp, Wednesday, 26 September 2012 15:38 (7 months ago) Permalink
you have to believe there's a sick combo in there somewhere
― frogbs, Wednesday, 26 September 2012 15:38 (7 months ago) Permalink
yeah angel of serenity is the best 'fatty' in the set, since having the additional option to get your own guys back, especially a second angel, gives you an almost unbeatable endgame
― ciderpress, Wednesday, 26 September 2012 15:41 (7 months ago) Permalink
its probably less playable than armada wurm tho, even if its better value
― Lamp, Wednesday, 26 September 2012 15:46 (7 months ago) Permalink
for limited or constructed?
― iatee, Wednesday, 26 September 2012 15:55 (7 months ago) Permalink
both of those cards are huge limited bombs but i think the wurm is a lot better positioned for constructed or at least more obviously playable
― Lamp, Wednesday, 26 September 2012 15:56 (7 months ago) Permalink
are auctions like this a terrible idea?http://www.ebay.com/itm/1600-UNCOMMON-DECK-LOT-Magic-the-Gathering-MTG-CARD-/200823749761?pt=Trading_Card_Games_US&hash=item2ec2073c81
― EVERYONE COOKING SCMABLED EGGS,CHEESE WITH TOASTER!! (forksclovetofu), Wednesday, 26 September 2012 16:00 (7 months ago) Permalink
no that seems like a good way to get a lot of cards
― iatee, Wednesday, 26 September 2012 16:01 (7 months ago) Permalink
for fun I mean
what exactly are you trying to accomplish by buying that
― frogbs, Wednesday, 26 September 2012 16:02 (7 months ago) Permalink
have a playable deck i guess
― EVERYONE COOKING SCMABLED EGGS,CHEESE WITH TOASTER!! (forksclovetofu), Wednesday, 26 September 2012 16:06 (7 months ago) Permalink
than just buy one of the decks that wizards puts out. the green/white event deck from M13 is p good value and its only like $20
― Lamp, Wednesday, 26 September 2012 16:07 (7 months ago) Permalink
i mean if you just want lots of cards i have boxes of draft commons and uncommons you can have for free
let's play sometime. i need to learn more than just ipad-style
― EVERYONE COOKING SCMABLED EGGS,CHEESE WITH TOASTER!! (forksclovetofu), Wednesday, 26 September 2012 16:09 (7 months ago) Permalink
those mixed lot auctions are okay but kind of a ripoff given that there are plenty of people out there like me or Lamp who draft a lot and will gladly dump off all their commons/uncommons on you for no charge. i don't even bring all my drafted cards home from the store anymore, i just leave the commons/uncommons lying around for other people to pick up, unless i specifically need them for a deck.
― ciderpress, Wednesday, 26 September 2012 16:10 (7 months ago) Permalink
forks I live in ny and will play w/ you
― iatee, Wednesday, 26 September 2012 16:11 (7 months ago) Permalink
yeah Wizards has a lot of products for those who want an okay Standard deck for cheap. if you're looking for bulk common/uncommons just head on down to a store where people draft and ask around. most drafters are more than happy to give away stacks of cards...hell when I draft I would say maybe 1 or 2 of the guys actually keeps what they draft. the rest just lies around. just getting a bunch of random uncommons really won't get you anywhere.
― frogbs, Wednesday, 26 September 2012 16:21 (7 months ago) Permalink
well afaik forks is pretty new to the game so getting a bunch of random uncommons could get him 'a good time', it's not like he's gonna be playing competitive constructed anytime soon
― iatee, Wednesday, 26 September 2012 16:25 (7 months ago) Permalink
well yeah but if you just want a bunch of random cards you shouldn't have to buy them on eBay. those M13 decks aren't really competitive but for someone just coming into the game I think they're good since the cards are meant to play together. if you're stringing together cards from random sets you'll definitely wind up with something unique but you miss the synergy between mechanics which is a big feature of pretty much any modern set
again it all really depends what exactly you're looking to do
― frogbs, Wednesday, 26 September 2012 16:28 (7 months ago) Permalink
i should probably steer clear entirely honestly, i have enough addictive issues as it is.But i will be down to try a few hands sometime.
― EVERYONE COOKING SCMABLED EGGS,CHEESE WITH TOASTER!! (forksclovetofu), Wednesday, 26 September 2012 17:08 (7 months ago) Permalink
the duel decks are actually just awesome if all you want is to have 2 decks that are evenly matched to pick up and play with anyone else. i have knights vs dragons, which is probably one of the crappier ones, and yet it's still a lot of fun to pull out when you don't really feel like playing hardcore
― ciderpress, Wednesday, 26 September 2012 17:58 (7 months ago) Permalink
The more I look at the RtR cards, the more I'm thinking that Rakdos is the way to go for the prerelease as it looks like it would shine in Limited, although I think I prefer Golgari overall and might throw in some Scavenge creatures if the opportunity presents itself.
― Moodles, Wednesday, 26 September 2012 21:45 (7 months ago) Permalink
I'm digging this series of articles:
― Moodles, Wednesday, 26 September 2012 21:46 (7 months ago) Permalink
they're entertaining but it's weird to go back and see how inaccurate they wind up being; I think these sets are too complicated and have too many interactions for anyone to really definitively say what's great and what's not without playing the set (besides obvious cards like Talrand's Invocation)
― frogbs, Wednesday, 26 September 2012 22:22 (7 months ago) Permalink
well well well Cube draft is back
― frogbs, Thursday, 27 September 2012 00:44 (7 months ago) Permalink
i don't like cube, i'm more excited about tempest drafts next week
― ciderpress, Thursday, 27 September 2012 00:53 (7 months ago) Permalink
i've never drafted mirage or tempest. awesome this is happening but i'm kind of sad it's only going to last a week or so. either way this is exactly the kind of thing that makes me forgive MTGO for its many many flaws
― frogbs, Thursday, 27 September 2012 00:59 (7 months ago) Permalink
mirage was the last block with banding, make sure you know how it works before you play or you will find your creatures all inexplicably in the graveyard the first time a band attacks you
― ciderpress, Thursday, 27 September 2012 04:12 (7 months ago) Permalink
rip benalish hero
― iatee, Thursday, 27 September 2012 13:25 (7 months ago) Permalink
essentially it means the controller of the band gets to decide where damage goes, right?
stuff like banding + flying/trample has always confused me but i'm willing to just wing it
did a cube draft last night for the first time. it's not as degenerate as a cube a buddy of mine has (with all the power 9 and dumb stuff like Tinker and Time Spiral) but it was still really fun. went 2-1 despite completely blowing the draft after realizing that the cards needed for a Necropotence deck weren't really there. seems like big accel/bomb-ass spells is the way to go. anyway it's really fun and with their new "Cube ticket" you can actually do a bunch for not much cost.
― frogbs, Thursday, 27 September 2012 13:30 (7 months ago) Permalink
yeah black has been unplayable in the MTGO cube so far, to the point where they removed the 2 pro-black swords this time around, which seems ridiculous when they could just improve the black options instead
― ciderpress, Thursday, 27 September 2012 13:34 (7 months ago) Permalink
and in light of that i have no fucking clue why they removed vampire nighthawk
― ciderpress, Thursday, 27 September 2012 13:36 (7 months ago) Permalink
man you guys are really tempting me w/ mtgo
translated to human money how much does a draft online usually run you?
― iatee, Thursday, 27 September 2012 13:39 (7 months ago) Permalink
its about the same price as irl, like $13-14, but you can cycle all your winnings right back into the next draft so depending on how good you are you can potentially end up only spending a few bucks per draft on average.
― ciderpress, Thursday, 27 September 2012 13:44 (7 months ago) Permalink
That's a tough question b/c it depends on your skill level but I'll try to break it down. Anyway, tickets sell for $1 apiece. Drafts cost 3 packs and 2 tickets. Packs of M13 sell for ~ 3.2 tickets now, so the cost is 11.6 tix/draft. But if you do Swiss (for example) you win a pack for every match you win. So say you win two, then your next draft would be 5.2 tix, but you can also sell the cards you drafted. In AVR this was a big deal since some Mythics were worth a boatload of tickets. I'm guessing RTR will be easy to sustain because a whole lot of rares look to fall in the 2-4 tix range.
On average for me I'm looking at around $2-3/draft doing Swiss. Apparently some real top pros can "go infinite" doing it but it's very tough to do.
Also, 4-pack sealed has no ticket requirement, so you can bang out a bunch of those for even cheaper. It's less fun though.
― frogbs, Thursday, 27 September 2012 13:47 (7 months ago) Permalink
oh yeah forgot to mention, you have to buy packs from the bots. Wizards online store will charge you 3.99 apiece no matter what, but the "market price" fluctuates a lot
― frogbs, Thursday, 27 September 2012 13:48 (7 months ago) Permalink
this is what i've been waiting for http://puremtgo.com/articles/ars-arcanum-rtr-prerelease-primer
― ciderpress, Thursday, 27 September 2012 14:02 (7 months ago) Permalink
yeah black has been unplayable in the MTGO cube so far
based on what I could see during the draft, red looked pretty bad too. not sure I'd first pick any red card there. green seems really strong though.
― frogbs, Thursday, 27 September 2012 14:34 (7 months ago) Permalink
dude is going hard for Selesnya, interesting...
I'm leaning toward Rakdos for the draft with either some overload or scavenge cards thrown in depending on what I open
― Moodles, Thursday, 27 September 2012 14:37 (7 months ago) Permalink
my takeaways from that article (much better than the Conley Woods ones, by the way)
1) avoid drafting 3 drops because you're going to end up with a lot of them no matter what2) may be a lot of stalemates due to a lack of lategame threats, which the guild mechanics should be able to break3) creatures with 3 or more toughness are at a premium because there's an abundance of 2-power creatures4) for Azorius, draft good offensive creatures high because there's a lot of good defensive ones5) Izzet is probably the worst guild as it has lots of unplayables6) Golgari has a glut of 4 drops7) Selesnya has a lot of token generators, so don't worry about not being able to populate8) Selesnya is probably the best guild (which was my hunch as well)
― frogbs, Thursday, 27 September 2012 14:44 (7 months ago) Permalink
I think ciderpress said as much upthread, but will 'best guild' even matter after the prerelease? I'd imagine an 8 man draft will make drafting along guild-lines kinda difficult - like if you happen to be lucky enough to be the only one drafting that color combo, you are gonna be a good place regardless.
― iatee, Thursday, 27 September 2012 18:09 (7 months ago) Permalink
well remember, the multicolor cards are only in the 5 guild pairs, and those comprise most of the strong cards in the set. if you're in an 'off-pair' you're almost certainly going to have to splash the in-between color for multicolor cards or else your deck is going to be underpowered.
so like you don't have to be GW in draft, but if you're GR, you really want to be splashing black to get access to GB and BR spells
― ciderpress, Thursday, 27 September 2012 18:20 (7 months ago) Permalink
usually it takes a few weeks before drafters at large catch onto what the best color combinations are. basically it looks like both G/W and G/B are going to be good so I'm more likely to take a good green card over a good red one. you're right that draft "self-corrects" but unless one color is noticably weak (like black in AVR) I don't think casual players really catch on much to what the best/worst colors are
― frogbs, Thursday, 27 September 2012 18:20 (7 months ago) Permalink
especially since each guild has a lot of support. I think a LOT of drafters are going to open a very good multicolored Uncommon or Rare and just go with it
― frogbs, Thursday, 27 September 2012 18:21 (7 months ago) Permalink
i'm willing to believe that 1 in 10 drafts or whatever, you'll be able to get a focused deck with just an off-guild color pair but it's going to be the exception not the norm
― ciderpress, Thursday, 27 September 2012 18:22 (7 months ago) Permalink
I was more suggesting that 3 color becomes inevitable rather than people going off pair
― iatee, Thursday, 27 September 2012 18:22 (7 months ago) Permalink
and if you've got a solid 2 deck you're in a really good place / got slightly lucky
yeah that sounds about right to me, with the caveat being that i don't think the mana fixing is quite good enough or the format quite slow enough to do pure 3-color like you could in the old ravnica block. you'll want one of your 3 colors to only have things that are relevant late-game so that you can run fewer mana sources of it.
― ciderpress, Thursday, 27 September 2012 18:28 (7 months ago) Permalink
for example, imagine having a RWU deck where you have your early plays in red and white, and your blue is Isperia's Skywatch, Detention Sphere, Teleportal, Voidwielder, New Prahv Guildmage. That's the type of 3-color that will work here I think.
― ciderpress, Thursday, 27 September 2012 18:33 (7 months ago) Permalink
maybe I don't remember the original Rav block very well but I don't think two color decks that weren't a guild pairing ever really worked. going G/R or U/B in RTR seems like it's going to cut you off from a lot of synergy and all the gold cards, which are among the best commons and uncommons in the set.=
― frogbs, Thursday, 27 September 2012 18:34 (7 months ago) Permalink
I'm really interested to see how the colour fixing goes in this set. It seems to have a lot less at common (bouncelands and signets being replaced by just the gates and no manadorks that i've seen), but people have pointed out that things like the gates and the uncommon man-artifacts (whatever they're called) are A LOT less appealing to people not in those colours, so they are more likely to come later.
― webber, Friday, 28 September 2012 00:40 (7 months ago) Permalink
this set is a lot of fun! i've never wanted to go back for a second prerelease before but i've now done 2. some things:
-The guilds are quite well balanced. Selesnya seems like the strongest if you get enough of the cheaper token makers to get your engine rolling but that's far from a given.-Rakdos is pretty polarized - it's super powerful when you're curving out decently, but if you stumble and lose the initiative and have to stop unleashing, your guys are all trading down and you probably can't win.-The format is faster than I expected - it seems faster than M13 but still slower than Innistrad due to the stretchier manabases and less efficient tempo tricks-3-color decks are way more doable than I thought they'd be. My first pool was light on fixing, but my 2nd pool had 6 guildgates and 2 keyrunes, plus some green fixing that i didn't use. i could probably have played 4-5 colors with that pool and been fine, and this is in sealed.
― ciderpress, Sunday, 30 September 2012 06:28 (7 months ago) Permalink
I originally thought the "guildpack" + promo was kind of a gimmick that would give people powerful sealed pools, but seeing this in action I realize that pretty much everyone would have to go 3 colors if they didn't have it. I played like 12 out of the 15 cards in there.
I picked Selesnya and it really did work well - starting as early as turn 2 you can just pump out 3/3's nonstop. Also they have a lot of combat tricks that can turn your opponent's attacks into blowouts. But it really is more balanced than I thought.
― frogbs, Sunday, 30 September 2012 06:38 (7 months ago) Permalink
also Radkos having a 1/4 reach and a 3/3 lifelink is kinda weird isn't it
― frogbs, Sunday, 30 September 2012 06:39 (7 months ago) Permalink
the 1/4 reach is BG isn't it?
and the lifelinker has haste so that's fine. helps race vs other aggro decks when you can't block
― ciderpress, Sunday, 30 September 2012 06:39 (7 months ago) Permalink
i won so many games with Stab Wound, its got to be the best common in the set
― ciderpress, Sunday, 30 September 2012 06:43 (7 months ago) Permalink
i guess you're right. guy I was playing was mostly Rakdos but now I remember he splashed some green. I remember that card well b/c I kept a sketchy hand because it had all 3 Eyes in the Skies I got and he didn't seem to have much vs. fliers. that card = ouch
as for the other guilds, Azorious looked actually pretty decent, but you really need to get the right dudes out. someone speculated that it really wasn't going to be a good draft strategy since a lot of the good commons/uncommons will just get taken by other guilds (whereas, say, the Populate cards are not very good in non-Selesnya decks). Izzet did not look good but the 2/2 for 2R that zaps your opponent for 2 on every instant/sorcery seems really good. I expected a lot of people to go Izzet but it seemed to be the least popular by far.
― frogbs, Sunday, 30 September 2012 06:45 (7 months ago) Permalink
Had lots of fun at the prerelease. I chose Rakdos and ended up going 2-2. The store I went to was very generous with prizes, so I went home with a couple extra boosters and a $5 gift certificate.
The highlight for me was pulling Vraska, my first planeswalker! I didn't come up with too many creatures in Rakdos colors, so splashing green was a no brainer. I agree that color fixing is very easy with cards like Transguild Promenade. I think going with more than 3 is absolutely workable. Playing Vraska was excellent and completely demoralizing for my opponents and won me several games.
My biggest challenge was getting off to a fast enough start because I didn't have enough 1 and 2 drops. I also had a tendency to stall out mid-game.
Deviant Glee was probably the biggest surprise all star for me. You get a ton of value for one swamp and a bonus mountain. Slitherhead (aka Tony Harrison's corpse) also played a surprise role in support of Launch Party.
― Moodles, Monday, 1 October 2012 04:42 (7 months ago) Permalink
Here's my final deck list:
SlitherheadDeviant GleeGrim RoustaboutOgre Jailbreaker2x Stab WoundDead RevelerDark RevenantLaunch PartyBrushstriderTowering IndrikRakdos Shred-Freak2x Gore-House Chainealker2x Splatter ThugLobber CrewAnnihilating FireAuger SpreeSkull RendRakdos Ringleader Carnival HellsteedVraska the Unseen2x Transguild Promenade Rakdos GuildgateGolgari Guildgate 5 Swamps6 Mountains2 Forests
― Moodles, Monday, 1 October 2012 04:51 (7 months ago) Permalink
cool, looks good except that i'm not sure you want to be playing a 2-drop (brushstrider) off of a splash. you want splashed cards to have some late-game value because you won't always have access to your green right away, and i think a 3/1 fails the late-game test.
― ciderpress, Monday, 1 October 2012 05:49 (7 months ago) Permalink
Yeah, it definitely wasn't my ideal choice, but I was starved for cheap creatures in black or red. Brushstrider ended up seeing a fair amount of play and I always seemed to have green available. Being able to hit for 3 in the early game fit well with the Rakdos theme, but then the vigilance gave me a blocker when I needed it, which was lacking due to unleash.
― Moodles, Monday, 1 October 2012 13:38 (7 months ago) Permalink
Several guys that gave me fits and are now on my must kill list:
Corpsejack MenaceRix Maadi Guildmage - a pain in the ass if you ignore himFrostburn Weird - this dude is really slippery
― Moodles, Monday, 1 October 2012 13:41 (7 months ago) Permalink
frostburn weird has to be one of the best commons, no?
― iatee, Monday, 1 October 2012 14:04 (7 months ago) Permalink
G/W guildmage has to be on that list too, jesus that thing gets nuts in the late game. Also want to say "thank you R&D" for making Scavenge sorcery speed. It would be such an annoying mechanic otherwise.
Really looking forward to drafting this set. I'm thinking 3-color is really not going to be that hard. Things like the 1G wall that searches up "gates" singlehandedly can fix your mana problems.
Interestingly enough my store has a "buy a box" tournament next week for the release. It's basically 36-pack sealed. I'm guessing it's just going to be "go where the bombs are" but I'm wondering if a U/W deck full of the good detain guys would work. Not sure if I really want to drop the cash but I'm really interested in seeing how it plays out.
― frogbs, Monday, 1 October 2012 14:08 (7 months ago) Permalink
yeah it was good for me
rix maadi guildmage is fucking brutal, i think it's the best guildmage now - vitu-ghazi guildmage is more powerful but you have until turn 6 to kill it before it takes over the game while rix maadi does it the moment it hits play
― ciderpress, Monday, 1 October 2012 14:08 (7 months ago) Permalink
stab wound is surely the best common, it singlehandedly won me several games through giant bombs like the azorius promo and collective blessing
― ciderpress, Monday, 1 October 2012 14:13 (7 months ago) Permalink
The first guy I played was also Rakdos and he dropped double Rix Maadi Guildmages, which just steamrolled me.
I played Stab Wound quite a bit, but didn't get as much milage out of it as I had hoped. Several times I was forced to use it for removal.
― Moodles, Monday, 1 October 2012 14:22 (7 months ago) Permalink
stab wound is def the best common. auger spree also surprisingly good removal for being three mana. runner up is the 3/3/3 centaur i think? or is that an uncommon?
anyway i played three prereleases - one saturday went 5-0 and then two on sunday i went 3-2 and then 2-1 drop. i was p burnt out and once i lost my first game in the third one had no appetite for playing two matches for at best 6 packs. will be challenging to draft this set i think, seems like there will be a lot of nuance in how your pick orders work. efficient removal seems p lacking so red/black will probably get overdrafted and i think rakdos is probably the weakest at common - a lot of its cards match up really poorly against the format and can basically never beat a X/4 creature. populate probably the strongest plan out of the gate (ha) since it doesnt really share much w/the other guilds and has a v good match up against the other guilds creatures.
― Lamp, Monday, 1 October 2012 15:40 (7 months ago) Permalink
Launch Party worked very nicely against Azorius. I got a real kick out of sacrificing guys who had been frozen out by Arrest or Paralyzing Grasp just to hit my opponent with the double whammy of creature and life loss.
― Moodles, Monday, 1 October 2012 15:58 (7 months ago) Permalink
yeah launch party is a p interesting card and sorta encapsulates the difficult time ive been having deciding on pick orders - hes obv really good against pacifism effects and works p well w/scavenge but like how good is it w/ the black 2/2 flier that goes back to the top of your deck? how often can you use it still be 'ahead' on mana? there arent that many cards that deal w/problem creatures esp multicolored ones (man having the two mana kill spell be a dead card seems like a thing) &c &c. there are a couple of players here whove been testing for the pt so ive been thinking about this stuff and i feel kinda lost w/o playing a bunch to really get a feel for the set whereas i think i had M13 p well figured from drop
― Lamp, Monday, 1 October 2012 16:09 (7 months ago) Permalink
I didn't get to go to any prerelease but I've been practice drafting this and it does seem extremely tricky
can we start a list of no-doubt great cards at each rarity?
― iatee, Monday, 1 October 2012 16:18 (7 months ago) Permalink
I can't imagine you'd want to play Launch Party more than once a game. There is definitely a lot of removal that I'd choose above it. It can be very powerful if you have Scavenge cards that you want to see in your graveyard.
― Moodles, Monday, 1 October 2012 16:20 (7 months ago) Permalink
I'm curious to see how difficult it's going to be to play against G/W. So many cards that can just blow up an attack step - like the fog/populate is the kind of thing that doesn't seem too great on the surface, but A) it only prevents damage to you, not creatures, so you can still exploit good blocks, and B) if you have a Centaur out, it's basically 1G instant 3/3 with an upside. Rootborn Defenses and Trostani's Judgement can just be blowouts. Attacking into an open 6 mana vs. G/W is gonna be a nightmare.
― frogbs, Monday, 1 October 2012 16:43 (7 months ago) Permalink
i think the commons that are always going to be great are Stab Wound, Annihilating Fire, Augur Spree, Centaur Healer, and the gates. everything else is somewhat contextual but those are all mana-efficient and play strong on offense or defense
― ciderpress, Monday, 1 October 2012 16:50 (7 months ago) Permalink
Eyes in the Skies?
― frogbs, Monday, 1 October 2012 16:53 (7 months ago) Permalink
eyes seemed pretty low impact if it was just making 2 birds, i don't think its even the best white common.
― ciderpress, Monday, 1 October 2012 16:56 (7 months ago) Permalink
what would you say then? T. Judgement?
in the past any card that made multiple fliers was super playable in limited. that said I wouldn't value it very high in U/W, for example. but in the G/W deck it's really valuable, especially when given the option to go bird/centaur in response to an attack.
― frogbs, Monday, 1 October 2012 16:58 (7 months ago) Permalink
I picked Azorius and had a really solid deck, tons of detains and flyers, 3 of the UW gates. It was consistent enough that I didn't splash my Armada Wurm and Deadbridge Goliath, which would have been greedy but possibly more fun. All my matches were close and it seems they did a good job balancing things. Enjoyable time overall, but the prize payout was miserable at the store I went to.
― Vinnie, Monday, 1 October 2012 17:05 (7 months ago) Permalink
I would grab Deviant Glee. The more I think about it, the more it seems like a ridiculous bargain. Unleash + Pump + Trample is just too good.
How highly should you prioritize mana fixing lands over spells?
― Moodles, Monday, 1 October 2012 17:21 (7 months ago) Permalink
xp i think in a vacuum the 2/3 flier, but t judgment if i have any reasonable chance of having a centaur token out
― ciderpress, Monday, 1 October 2012 17:26 (7 months ago) Permalink
if i'm drafting a 3+ color deck, there's only like 5-10 commons i'd take over an appropriate gate or transguild promenade. if you're getting good support for just sticking with 1 guild, you can take them much lower.
― ciderpress, Monday, 1 October 2012 17:31 (7 months ago) Permalink
I think the 2/3 flyer is probably the best white common too, though Judgment has the chance to be a total bomb in the right situation. The slower the format, the better Judgment becomes.
― Vinnie, Monday, 1 October 2012 17:38 (7 months ago) Permalink
Ogre Jailbreaker was a surprise MVP in my first prerelease deck, i'm gonna be looking for him to hopefully be underdrafted at first, along with the gates
― ciderpress, Monday, 1 October 2012 17:48 (7 months ago) Permalink
my favorite white common is the one mana combat trick but thats probably why im bad at magic :/
gates dont seem like v high picks pack 1 but then get increasingly good packs two and three
― Lamp, Monday, 1 October 2012 17:52 (7 months ago) Permalink
Nah, that trick is pretty damn efficient for one mana, it's up there with the best white commons. I got totally blown out by it one match on Saturday: double-blocked a centaur with 2 2/2s in a race situation. That was pretty much a 3-for-1 for my opponent.
― Vinnie, Monday, 1 October 2012 18:08 (7 months ago) Permalink
it seems like the gate value is very dependent on your deck? like if you have a fairly balanced 2-color deck w/ no gate effects, you wouldn't reach for them. but if you're playing a funky color scheme, they could make or break your deck.
― iatee, Monday, 1 October 2012 18:11 (7 months ago) Permalink
yeah, its a balancing act much like the original ravnica - the higher you take gates, the fewer shots you have at the high-pick multicolor spells which are the reason to prioritize gates in the first place
― ciderpress, Monday, 1 October 2012 18:13 (7 months ago) Permalink
oh yeah, had forgotten about the 2/3 flyer (had never seen him). I think in G/W Eyes and Judgement are probably better but not in U/W
I haven't really looked at the flyers yet; if there are a lot of 2-power flyers then the 2/3 and 1/3 white flyers are both very good
― frogbs, Monday, 1 October 2012 18:28 (7 months ago) Permalink
so ive been doing some practice drafting w/rtr and outside of the obv guild mechanic-centered strategies some potentially powerful strategies im looking to draft are defender ramp in b/g and what im calling 'pursuit of secrets'.
defender ramp seems really strong the key cards are the 0/2 that finds a basic or a gate the 0/3 that taps for mana and the 4/4 that can attack if you have a gate all of which i can imagine going reasonably late at first. ramp is really powerful w/scavenge and it opens you up to other powerful walls like the 0/4 that pings and the 0/4 that mills as a wincon. you also have the 1/4 regen reach in your colors which seems really good. this strategy can get folded into a general scavenge deck but works w/o scavenge cards since theres just a lot of stuff to spend mana on in this format
the second strategy is mostly just put pursuit of flight on stealer of secrets, keep mizzium skin as a backup, draw cards, win. but you can exploit other potentially undervalued cards like crosstown courier and teleport and the blue 2/1 thats unblockable. most of the 'good' izzet decks seem like they just want to exploit either guttersnipe or electromancer so this is a useful strategy that you can draft around another u/r drafter
― Lamp, Tuesday, 2 October 2012 20:32 (7 months ago) Permalink
I did notice that Stealer of Secrets works very well with detain. Your opponent basically has to keep two blockers open, and the more you draw, the more you get to detain things.
― frogbs, Tuesday, 2 October 2012 20:36 (7 months ago) Permalink
i just want to draft insane 4-5 color decks where i'm like casting horncaller's chant off of goblin electromancers and shit
― ciderpress, Wednesday, 3 October 2012 00:45 (7 months ago) Permalink
i think ogre jailbreaker is my favorite common in the set and i hope/expect that it will be underdrafted at the start
― ciderpress, Wednesday, 3 October 2012 00:50 (7 months ago) Permalink
what's the consensus on essence backlash?
― iatee, Wednesday, 3 October 2012 00:55 (7 months ago) Permalink
had to skip drafting 2nite cause not enough people came :( rain + ppl waiting for rtr I guess
― iatee, Wednesday, 3 October 2012 00:56 (7 months ago) Permalink
i like backlash more than most people i suspect, but it's important to remember that a bunch of the creatures in the set are actually token-making instants/sorceries. it'll be real awkward if you leave it up and they play Courser's Accord.
i think its best in a tempo deck that can consistently drop a 2-drop and a 3-drop before leaving it up, so that you're applying pressure and thus a) your opponent can't play around it as easily since they need to play blockers to stabilize and b) the damage matters
― ciderpress, Wednesday, 3 October 2012 01:00 (7 months ago) Permalink
cards like that are seldom good in draft. i suppose if you're full of electromancers and other things that power up w/ instants it can be alright but in general counters only really work if you don't have anything else in that mana slot. like i'd much rather play a Runewing or something. I don't think U/R can really put the early pressure on based on what I've seen.
i'm wondering a lot about Chemister's Trick. it's psuedo-removal and can lead to blowouts. but something tells me it's worse than it looks.
― frogbs, Wednesday, 3 October 2012 01:02 (7 months ago) Permalink
oh yeah, frostburn weird is really good, i'd want 2 of those in any izzet deck
― frogbs, Wednesday, 3 October 2012 01:03 (7 months ago) Permalink
i played chemister's trick as my 23rd spell at the prerelease, it was awkward but did win me a game by being a fog in a race situation. i can't imagine ever being happy with it but some decks need an effect like that if they're light on removal
― ciderpress, Wednesday, 3 October 2012 01:07 (7 months ago) Permalink
I am gonna be tempted to play izzet every game just cause blue/red has always been my favorite color combo and even if I lose I'll do it in style w/ counters *and* burn
― iatee, Wednesday, 3 October 2012 01:07 (7 months ago) Permalink
i think izzet is the trickiest one to build for and people are down on it right now because they didn't figure it out at the prerelease. my roommate played izzet at both prereleases we went to and crushed them both, it just requires some skill at creating control or tempo decks in limited; most people are only used to drafting aggro or midrange
― ciderpress, Wednesday, 3 October 2012 01:12 (7 months ago) Permalink
i think chemister's trick and teleport are both 'kinda good' in the way where you dont love running them but they end up winning you at least one game every draft in which you play them
i think [essence backlash]s best in a tempo deck that can consistently drop a 2-drop and a 3-drop before leaving it up, so that you're applying pressure and thus a) your opponent can't play around it as easily since they need to play blockers to stabilize and b) the damage matters
yeah outside of the obvious 'every card is good w/electromancer' case i really liked having backlash in my stealer/pursuit deck because i was generally leaving mana up for other stuff and just wanted to race once my boards was set up
― Lamp, Wednesday, 3 October 2012 01:47 (7 months ago) Permalink
teleportal is like 100x better than chemister's trick, its almost overrun when you overload it
― ciderpress, Wednesday, 3 October 2012 02:24 (7 months ago) Permalink
its certainly better but i wouldnt go that far
― Lamp, Wednesday, 3 October 2012 02:34 (7 months ago) Permalink
I can't believe this fell off the first page! So what is everyone's consensus for the best guild to play pre-release? I haven't been paying too much attention but MTGO pre-res are on the weekend so I should probably decide on something.
― webber, Friday, 5 October 2012 01:45 (7 months ago) Permalink
i like the idea of the axebane ramp deck too, but i don't think it's a deck archetype in and of itself. you need lots of scavenge to make it work, i think. or, like, worldspine wurm. neither are givens
i really like izzet in draft so far. i find that it synergizes really nicely with both rakdos and azorius to produce consistent tempo decks. i'm a big fan of the red unleash creatures: chainwalker, splatter thug, and bloodfray giant. pretty easy to pick em up in draft. detain is awesome with em. if you go rakdos you get access to augur spree and more nasty unleash creatures. ps, i also rep for teleportal. chemister's trick way too situational though. i don't think izzet can make it work, not defensive enough.
fencing ace might be my favorite creature in the set. i really like auras and it's not like there's a whole lot of bounce. it's super easy to pick up a bunch of ethereal armors for him, which can easily get to +2/+2 or more with the amount of enchantment based removal in the set. pity the first strike is redundant on him though
― fennel cartwright, Friday, 5 October 2012 04:22 (7 months ago) Permalink
ok so I think I am doing the box-sealed tomorrow. 60 card deck, dunno about sideboard (I would assume just 15). so it's kind of RTR constructed, but with limited access to rares and uncommons. anyone have any idea what kind of strategy this would lend to, or do I just count the power uncommons/rares and go with it?
with all the duals and stuff like the 0/2 gatesearch wall, maybe 3 color could really work here?
― frogbs, Friday, 5 October 2012 13:26 (7 months ago) Permalink
if you get a bunch of rakdos cacklers and guttersnipes i'd consider playing mono-red, otherwise just play a control deck with the best cards and appropriate fixing to cast them all
― ciderpress, Friday, 5 October 2012 13:36 (7 months ago) Permalink
how many of each uncommon does that average out to? I'd think about that number a lot
― iatee, Friday, 5 October 2012 13:37 (7 months ago) Permalink
guttersnipe doesn't seem good in mono-red, even with the hybrid dudes (which cost 1 and 2)
― frogbs, Friday, 5 October 2012 13:38 (7 months ago) Permalink
guttersnipe would be good if red had more cheap burn, but you're limited to 4 per card right?
― iatee, Friday, 5 October 2012 13:42 (7 months ago) Permalink
okay, the breakdown is like this: total set is 101 commons, 80 uncommons, 53 rares, 15 mythic rares. in 36 packs you will get 360 commons, 108 uncommons, and 36 rares. so about 3.6 of each common, 1.4 of each uncommon, .6 of each rare, like .3 of each mythic. Which I think suggests, go where the uncommons are
and yeah it's 4 of each
― frogbs, Friday, 5 October 2012 13:42 (7 months ago) Permalink
webber: the guilds ended up being pretty balanced - everyone here seemed to think golgari was the strongest but i saw some folks run statistics on their prereleases and it actually performed the worst, with rakdos and selesnya performing best
i would guess that selesnya is the best overall - its linear plan is almost as powerful as rakdos's but unlike rakdos it can recover from bad draws and it's base green so you can fall back on a splashy control deck if you don't get enough of the good aggressive cards.
― ciderpress, Friday, 5 October 2012 13:43 (7 months ago) Permalink
I think no matter what you pull, a fast unleash deck will be buildable and playable
― iatee, Friday, 5 October 2012 13:44 (7 months ago) Permalink
Between prerelease and tonight's draft I've picked up Vraska, Abrupt Decay, Temple Garden, and Angel of Serenity. I own very few powerful cards like Vraska or Angel, but very little opportunity to use them. At what point does it make sense to try to sell stuff like this on eBay rather than holding on to them? Would you sell? If you would, what would you buy instead?
― Moodles, Saturday, 6 October 2012 06:09 (7 months ago) Permalink
All stars from tonight's picks:
Angel of Serenity (won me the game every time it came into play)Deadbridge GoliathSeek the Horizon(made Angel happen for me)Terrus Wurm
Sluiceway ScorpionSphere of Safety (lacked the enchantments to make this shine)
Added to my must kill list:
― Moodles, Saturday, 6 October 2012 06:49 (7 months ago) Permalink
I think Vraska and Abrupt Decay are going to go down. Vraska because people are going to realize it's not really a game changer the way Gideon was; it's basically a better Lux Cannon, but you don't actually have to attack it. Abrupt Decay is going to be good but there's going to be so much of this set opened up that I can't see any rare hold its value. Ditto w/ Temple Garden (which was already printed once besides)
― frogbs, Saturday, 6 October 2012 13:05 (7 months ago) Permalink
So if you were holding single copies of those cards right now, what would you do?
― Moodles, Saturday, 6 October 2012 13:50 (7 months ago) Permalink
i'm with frogbs, sell high on all your golgari cards. everyone's building these BG zombie decks, but the main thing about new sets is that nobody actually knows anything. the first major tournaments seem to have the hype decks relatively absent, while random cards get pulled out to great effect. see: huntmaster upon DKA release. abrupt decay is very good, sure, but i can't imagine even a "very good" card holding $20 value.
and i think it's basically a given that unless the planeswalker is format breaking (aka, jace the mind sculptor) it will dip in value pretty significantly. i would have said by half or so, then i looked up liliana of the veil. how on earth is she still at $25 on star city, with abrupt decay and loxodon smiter running around?
― fennel cartwright, Saturday, 6 October 2012 15:38 (7 months ago) Permalink
It depends how much play the Smiter sees. if G/W is a thing post-rotation (and it should be), then Lili's going to be a bit of a liability. I'm also curious to see Dreadbore's effect on the enviroment. If people play Jund or B/R zombies and pack this card maindeck (if those dumb Delver/Geist/Resto. Angel decks die down a bit, since sorcery-speed targeted removal isn't really effective vs. that), then I'd think all planeswalkers will get a bit worse. The upside to playing them is that they were always tough to deal with. Now that a 2-mana spell trades straight up, 5 mana walkers like Vraska have got to suffer a bit.
― frogbs, Saturday, 6 October 2012 17:03 (7 months ago) Permalink
So if you sold the Golgari cards, what would you get instead? My goal is to have at least one solid playable deck.
― Moodles, Saturday, 6 October 2012 17:22 (7 months ago) Permalink
well as mentioned I think everything is going to go down somewhat. but U/W cards seem like they'll retain some value thanks to Geist. I feel like new Jace is better than Vraska; you don't even have to fuck around with it, just go -2, -2, and you get really good value out of it.
anyway. wound up winning the box tournament (out of 14 people). very interesting format but deckbuilding was really tough. all I can say is, the hybrid 1/4 U/R 2-drop with the 'flowstone' ability is really, really good.
― frogbs, Sunday, 7 October 2012 14:41 (7 months ago) Permalink
that's rad dude. decklist? what'd you win?
― iatee, Sunday, 7 October 2012 15:00 (7 months ago) Permalink
so guys, humor me, I have some more beginner questions:
When a new set comes out, what do you usually buy? Fat Pack? Booster box? Individual boosters? Intro Packs?
Does anyone on here actively participate in Constructed events or is this a strictly Limited crowd?
― Moodles, Sunday, 7 October 2012 18:17 (7 months ago) Permalink
the store i play at runs Standard FNM and Draft FNM at the same time, so i don't play Standard much since I prefer drafting. I'll usually put together a Standard deck and play it every once in a while as a break from drafting. I follow the various Constructed tournaments and such pretty closely though so I tend to have a good sense of what cards/decks are good despite not playing a ton.
for new sets i generally just play Limited events to get cards, sometimes i'll buy a box or a fat pack if i feel like it but in general i end up with more than enough cards just from drafting once or twice a week
― ciderpress, Sunday, 7 October 2012 21:44 (7 months ago) Permalink
just another box of cards (entry fee was just the box you had to buy so not huge prize support); still well worthwhile
once I can find it I'll post up a decklist, but I did wind up using 11 or so rares; 2 of them were dual lands, the rest were mostly bomby stuff like Niv-Mizzet, Archon of the Triumvariant, Mercurial Chemister, etc
― frogbs, Sunday, 7 October 2012 22:58 (7 months ago) Permalink
liliana sees play in all constructed formats (usually as a 4-of), plus cube and commander. she is hurt by decay/smiter, but i'd be a little shocked if she ever went below $20?
does anyone do the fantasy pt draft thing on facebook? i'm thinking of betting hard on jund; dreadbore, abrupt decay and maybe loltroll seem to make what was already a good deck very insane? maybe i'm just underestimating the power level of modern
― webber, Monday, 8 October 2012 03:43 (7 months ago) Permalink
ive been playing some larger constructed events lately and will probably play regionals if i can both manage to get the day free and feel like my play is strong enough to top 8. but generally i prefer to limit my constructed play to mtgo since live its just more fun for me to draft
in terms of putting my standard/modern decks together i mostly traded for the cards i needed and then purchased w/e singles i couldnt trade for. i draft quite a lot so i tend to accumulate more cards than i really want already and the odds of opening the specific things i need are p low, even with a box. i did win like 30 packs of rtr at prereleases and i opened most of those, as well as my actual sealed pools which gave me a decent amount of rtr cards to build on.
― Lamp, Monday, 8 October 2012 04:18 (7 months ago) Permalink
xp i filled out one of those - i agree with Jund being the best deck going into this tournament. Abrupt Decay is the only real important new card, but its a huge one for patching up Jund's weakness which is that it's slow and clunky and loses tempo vs blue decks easily.
my list off the top of my head wasPlaneswalker: Liliana of the VeilBig Creature: Kiki-JikiMedium Creature: Kitchen FinksSmall Creature: TarmogoyfInstant: RemandSorcery: Serum VisionsArtifact: Relic of ProgenitusEnchantment: Honor of the Pure (completely clueless on this one, Threads of Disloyalty might be a safer pick)Nonbasic Land: Scalding Tarn
― ciderpress, Monday, 8 October 2012 04:45 (7 months ago) Permalink
my picks were
Planeswalker: Liliana of the VeilBig Creature: Kiki-JikiMedium Creature: Bloodbraid ElfSmall Creature: TarmogoyfInstant: Abrupt DecaySorcery: Gitaxian ProbeEnchantment: Oblivion RingArtifact: Sword of Feast and FamineNonbasic Land: Verdant Catacombs
― webber, Monday, 8 October 2012 10:39 (7 months ago) Permalink
okay tonight's my first night actually drafting rtr please organize all the wisdom so far and present it to me
― iatee, Tuesday, 9 October 2012 15:34 (7 months ago) Permalink
figure out ASAP whether a single guild is open, especially selesnya or rakdos since they have the most powerful linear strategies and benefit the most from sticking to 2 color. if no single guild is wide open just take the best cards you see and enough mana fixing to tie them together into a deck.
one thing i learned last night is that figuring out how high people are going to draft the guildgates and transguild promenade is tough and can really make or break your draft - i was taking them early and then ended up wheeling more of them instead of playable spells. i think it's correct to pick them high if your deck isn't really linear but new folks who haven't drafted a multicolor set before can skew things a lot.
― ciderpress, Tuesday, 9 October 2012 15:46 (7 months ago) Permalink
how many gates/promenade should a 3 color deck aim for? is 3 color screwed w/o mana fixing?
4 color ever worth it? let's say p1p1 and p2p1 are bombs w/ 4 different colors in total
― iatee, Tuesday, 9 October 2012 15:50 (7 months ago) Permalink
Did one yesterday, took first with GB/W. Maybe the packs opened were weak but it didn't seem like there were any two-color decks that did well. Like, if you want to draft just one guild, I feel like that guild has to be pretty open. Then again, I've only done this once. I think having a 'main' guild and one back-up guild is nice. Also, like the original Rav block, fix color fixers early if you're doing three colors.
This way, you have a base color, and can draft accordingly:
Primary: White Secondary: Blue and GreenPrimary: Blue Secondary: White and RedPrimary: Black Secondary: Red and GreenPrimary: Red Secondary: Black and BluePrimary: Green Secondary: White and Black
Anyway the point of all this is that when you do a solid 3-color split, value cards of your "primary" color higher. For example with G/W/B I was running 8 Forests, one B/G Gate, 4 Swamps, and 4 Plains. First off, you want more Gates/promenades than that. Secondly, I had to do such a radical mana split because my deck simply wouldn't function without Green. Without White or Black, sure (and obviously I had games where I didn't draw one), but without Green, no way. So cards that were "mono-white" I tended to shy away from, unless they were high-mana (like Trostani's Judgement) or really good anyway (like Arrest). For example the 1WW 2/3 flyer isn't really playable unless your primary is White.
As far as which guild to draft, they seem pretty balanced at common, but I feel it all comes down to whatever bomb uncommons/rares come your way. Again, don't underestimate Frostburn Weird, outside of maybe Stab Wound he's my pick for favorite common in the set. Also, green has two color-fixing commons, which do work together (and can be deadly with the guildmages). The Vine (0/2 gatesearch for 1G) is excellent. Don't be afraid to draft him early.
― frogbs, Tuesday, 9 October 2012 15:54 (7 months ago) Permalink
i played 4 color last night, i had 5 guildgates, 2 gatecreeper vines, 1 axebane guardian. its totally worth it if you get enough powerful cards but i didn't really.
i think for straight up 3 color, having 3-4 gates/promenades is ideal. most of your 3 color decks are going to be more like 2.5 colors though, where the 3rd color is just removal and stuff later on the curve, in which case you can get away with 1-2 easy.
― ciderpress, Tuesday, 9 October 2012 15:55 (7 months ago) Permalink
Also I do agree with cider, G/W and R/B are the most focused strategies and probably have the best plans for turns 1-4. Both blue guilds seem to focus more on the long game so you can definitely play three colors there. G/B splashes well with the other two guilds though make sure you don't scavenge on unleash creatures that didn't have the counter before because that does in fact screw you over :)
One final remark, the Daggerdrome Imp (1/1 flying lifelink) is kinda crap, but works very nicely with Scavenge
― frogbs, Tuesday, 9 October 2012 15:57 (7 months ago) Permalink
ha I didn't think about that
― iatee, Tuesday, 9 October 2012 15:58 (7 months ago) Permalink
oh yeah frostburn weird is the best non-removal common in the set, centaur healer and splatter thug probably 2nd and 3rd. these are important things to know imo since they're less obvious than the removal if you haven't played a bunch of games with/against them.
― ciderpress, Tuesday, 9 October 2012 15:58 (7 months ago) Permalink
the removal seems mostly crappy this time around. is it still always high pick just cause it's removal? the 1RR lightning bolt esp tough if you're running 3 colors and red isn't your base, I would think.
― iatee, Tuesday, 9 October 2012 16:00 (7 months ago) Permalink
the thing with Frostburn is that he buys you so much time, throwing a wrench into the early game plans of G/W and B/R, since they can both drop a lot of early 3-power creatures. he trades with nearly any creature you'll see if you have mana open and if he goes unblocked you can get him up to 4. really great value for a two-drop.
one card I'd be interested to try is Stealer of Secrets. seems like Azorius has so many ways to temporarily wipe out blockers. Not just all the detain stuff, but there is also Arrest and two commons that bounce creatures (the instant one is very good vs. populate)
― frogbs, Tuesday, 9 October 2012 16:05 (7 months ago) Permalink
nah its still fine unless your red is just a small splash. the 2 red burn spells, stab wound, auger spree, trostani's judgment are all high picks just for being good removal, even if they're awkward in various ways
― ciderpress, Tuesday, 9 October 2012 16:08 (7 months ago) Permalink
also one card which is non-obviously insane is Thoughtflare. its not good in aggro and there might be a couple other uncommons that are better than it but if i'm midrange or control i'm going to windmill slam it almost every time, and will happily splash it as my only blue card
― ciderpress, Tuesday, 9 October 2012 16:09 (7 months ago) Permalink
anyway if it wasnt obvious, this format seems pretty difficult - maybe not quite as difficult as 3x innistrad, but yeah don't be discouraged if your first few draft decks fail to do anything
― ciderpress, Tuesday, 9 October 2012 16:27 (7 months ago) Permalink
haha on saturday i realized at the end of pack two i had 15 playables at a stretch and... 8 guildgates :/
stuff i have realized: goblin electromancer is really good but requires some work, unleash seems like it ends up overdrafted, blue slightly underdrafted, non-flying evasion is really important.
― Lamp, Tuesday, 9 October 2012 16:38 (7 months ago) Permalink
one thing I'm kinda realizing is that Golgari doesn't really have a whole lot of synergy. you can build up creatures but when you look at the commons it has there is little outside of the Imp that really WANTS those +1/+1 counters. I have a hunch that G/B is a trap unless it's part of a 3-color splash, but can't say for sure.z
― frogbs, Tuesday, 9 October 2012 16:43 (7 months ago) Permalink
yeah golgari is probably the weakest guild and is definitely the guild that most wants to be the lots of colors / ramp deck, the hard part is finding an endgame that actually goes over the top. big ground guys don't really do it.
― ciderpress, Tuesday, 9 October 2012 16:47 (7 months ago) Permalink
I do like how Scavenge is built in card advantage, but the creatures are often trading down so it's not really a huge thing. It reminds me of M13 blue or AVR white, you can really do well with it if you get enough bomb-ass uncommons and rares - but many of them will be splashed by Rakdos and Selesnya players, so first-picking a Golgari Guildmage seems like it can really lead to an ineffective deck with a weak early game and a bad late game, with Guildmage functioning as your best card. That said it really worked well for me, but I think my deck was kind of a fluke.
― frogbs, Tuesday, 9 October 2012 16:56 (7 months ago) Permalink
on the contrary, i think the guildmage is the exact type of card you need but could have trouble getting - the golgari cards are interchangably good at generating board stalls but can't break them
― ciderpress, Tuesday, 9 October 2012 17:04 (7 months ago) Permalink
What I'm saying is that the Guildmage is excellent but the deck as a whole is not going to be good without other power uncommons and rares, and you can't count on them coming to you. On the other hand you can build good Selesnya or Rakdos decks that use 18-20 commons. First picking the Guildmage can certainly pay off but I think you're also kinda likely to be first-picking a Drudge Beetle in pack 3, wondering how things went so wrong. Unless of course you splash red or white.
― frogbs, Tuesday, 9 October 2012 17:09 (7 months ago)